Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Discussion of the man and his work.

Welcome to the Art Deco Dining Pavilion! Here's the deal. This is Harlan's little breakfast nook at Webderland. When he's not here, we chat about him and his work. When he is, we act like we're guests in his home. That's about all there is to it. (link to More specific rules) Oh, and since the nook doesn't exactly hold a crowd (and to prevent the less frequent voices from being drowned out), please limit yourself to one post a day unless Harlan asks you a direct question. The Pavilion Annex is available if you're the logorrheic type. Also, we have archives of old posts.

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Displaying board posts 1 through 25 - showing messages at a time.

Josh Olson
- Friday, July 3 2009 16:23:45

I reel.

Sarah Palin said in her new conference today, in which she seemed confused and out of breath, "We need more Trigs in the world, not fewer."

For anyone who doesn't get why this is remarkable - Trig is Palin's retarded kid.

The only conclusion I can come to is she believes if there were more retarded people in the world, she'd have a better shot at a viable political career.

Truly, this is a grand day. America got her birthday present one day early this year.


Shane
- Friday, July 3 2009 15:15:58

Sarah Palin resigned, So what is she up to, eh?


DTS <none>
OZ - Friday, July 3 2009 15:10:45

John Zecock 's Heinlein question and Alan's response to Frank
John: The reason I'm rereading the later Heinlein novels is because I'd never read TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE or THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST, so I wanted to read the others that are connected to the book (and to Lazarus Long); since I'm rereading THE CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS and TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET, I decided to reread FRIDAY AND JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE, which, I think are the two novels that a lot of people actually thought highly of (given the award nominations). Although many say Heinlein wasn't in top form during when writing the later novels, I actually found the books (starting with FRIDAY) quite enjoyable. And his somewhat sexist outlook (the reference to wanting to "rape" someone -- which meant a character was feeling so lusty he wanted to rip her clothes off -- still makes me wince), and his politics are on display even in the earlier novels, so naysayers of the latter years who complain about that aspect are reaching. As for enjoyable story lines (and playfulness and witty banter) it's abundant in all of his novels. Some are better than others, yeah; but I still enjoy the books that aren't the best he ever did (I think Harlan championed FRIDAY -- at least in a blurb -- don't have the book here in front of me).

ALAN: FRANK (and the politician from Germany, who made a similar comparison when Bush & Co. first invaded Iraq) may be using hyperbole, but they are right in their comparisons. Just because Bush & Cheney weren't as successful as Hitler doesn't make them any less facist or criminal-minded. That Cheney willingly sent thousands of young American soldiers to thier deaths (and seriously wounded thousands of others, and is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians) strictly for profit and political gain, doesn't make him any less a criminal. And the fact that Bush is a mental midget (but not so stupid he didn't realize that some of the things he was doing were morally questionable) or that he is a bit crazy (deciding an invisiable god gave hime the okay is crazy in my book -- and in the books of MOST sane people who say listening to voices isn't wise), doesn't make him innocent either. And what first prompted the Hitler comparison by the German politician was not only the invasion, but the repeal of rights in the homeland (wiretaps, calling people unpatriotic when they disagreed -- a VERY Hitler-like move -- etc., etc.) As Harlan once said, you can't compare horrors saying one isn't as bad as another.

It's horrific or it isn't. Starting a war illegally is criminal, or it isn't. The only thing stopping Americans from doing the right thing (and demanding George W. Bush and Dick Cheney be dragged before a court for trial) is, as it always is in America, fear (FDR was spot on). In this case, fear of looking bad in the eyes of the world, or fear of not getting reelected (most of the politicians), fear of having to admit the truth to all those soldiers (that they fought the Iraq war for naught)...

Fear: it's whats for breakfast (and lunch, and dinner) in America. I've had a bellyful.

Cheers from Down Under,
DTS


KOS
You Go, I Go - Friday, July 3 2009 15:7:1

We don't go
My Yugo Story:

It was years ago, and I drove one of those huge mid 80s Volvo station wagons. You know them: Good point was they were built like a tank. Bad point was, they looked like a tank!

I was near downtown LA, on the 110 freeway. It was a Saturday afternoon, with that weird sort of traffic LA sometimes gets on weekends. You roll along for twenty miles or so at speed, and then everyone comes to a complete stop for no apparent reason. In this case something distracted me as the stop happened, just long enough that I had to slam on the brakes. Hard.

Not hard enough. My car skidded and slewed into the rear of the last "car" in the jam-up.

I wrote "car", because it was (of course) a Yugo.

Aside from everything loose in my car having moved forward three feet, and one turn signal assembly having a broken plastic cover, the Volvo was undamaged.

The Yugo? Ah, the Yugo was like this:

The Entire Rear Bumper was gone.

When my Volvo hit the rear of the Yugo, the bumper of the Yugo more or less impaled itself upon my forward bumper, and the rest of the Yugo itself, sans rear bumper, sort of went "sproinnggg! and bounced forward a foot or so, leaving its entire bumper behind. Much like a desert lizard that could drop its tail for the predator to feast on while the reptile gets away to grow a new one.

The body of the car was at a weird obtuse angle to the wheels, and the center of the car seemed bent UP a mite higher than the front and rear ends. It looked summat like an Inch Worm frozen halfway through an "inch".

The accurate one word description is "Totalled".

After a quick moment to gather my wits, I tried to open my door, but the latch didn't work. I looked up, and a man, a VERY LARGE black man built like an NFL offensive lineman, emerged slowly from the Yugo, walked to the rear of his car, looked at where his rear bumper had recently been, then turned, looked at where his former rear bumper haf become my new "hoor ornament", and then simply stood, expressionless, for a moment. Taking the sight in.

By now drivers were honking horns, people jeered at us as they rolled slowly by (and why are people such jackasses when there is a crash? I remember two twenty something mooks in wifebeaters who leaned out from their convertible as they rolled by and tried to beat on the two cars with their fists. Humans!)

After a second or two, the huge Yugo guy walked to the front of my car, reached down with ONE HAND and PULLED the Yugo bumper fre, flipped it off into the ice plant along the shoulder of the freeway, turned and walked to my window.

I rolled the window down, since the door still wouldn't open, seeing in my minds eye a vision of that same huge hand PULLING me slowly out through my open window. I wondered if it might feel at all as if I were being born a second time?

The Huge Yugo Driver leaned down to me abd asked, very calmly, "You okay?"

"Yeah. Yeah, Uh, I'm fIne, I'm okay. Uh, are you..."

He laughed and flashed me one huge smile. He wasn't pissed. Relief. He seemed, miraculously, frabjous day, well, happy!

"I'm just fine, man, Just fine. Couldn't be better"

He looked over my car as I got my license and insurance card for him.

"Your car's not really wr3cked at all. They really build these things"


I handed him my license and State Farm card.

"Yeah, you know Volvos. I guess your's got pretty banged up..."

He laughed. Didn't have to say anything. Then he smiled at me again and started writing down my info.

"I can't thank you enough, man!", he said as he handed back my documents. turned and went back to his Yugo to wait for the CHP and a tow.

It hit me about half way home.

He wasn't thanking me for the license and insurance info. He was thanking me because:

He didn't have to drive around LA any more in a Yugo. He was going to get SOME sort of replacement from my insurance company, and ANYTHING would be better than a Yugo!

I guess that was my Good Deed for that day?

KOS


Bob Ingersoll <bingersoll@mindspring.com>
South Euclid, Ohio - Friday, July 3 2009 14:40:23

Copyrighting a Character Name
"A copyright question-my friend, Gerry, a Cinemax fan, was watching an SF porn film and one of the characters was named Professor Quatermass. I know you can't copyright titles but is this something the Kneale estate should address or should they leave the film to its one handed viewers on the premise that calling attention to it would just make that much more people aware of it ? Happy 4th to all."


John,

You can't copyright a character name, as such. You can copyright works of art -- stories, paintings, movies, and the like -- once they've reached their finished form; but not a character name.

When Harlan wrote "Jeffty is Five," he got a copyright on the unique body of words that created that story. He got a copyright on the basic plot of the story, such that no one else could write a story that incorporated that plot (or significant portions thereof) without Harlan's permission. But he didn't get a copyright on the name Jeffty.

Anybody could write a story with a character named Jeffty without violating Harlan's copyright.

There is a way to protect character names, however. It's a trademark. The Edgar Rice Burroughs estate has a trademark on the name Tarzan. Walt Disney has a trademark on Mickey Mouse. And Harlan's own corporation has taken out a trademark on the name Harlan Ellison.

I'm sure that Kneale's estate has a trademark on Quartermass. I don't know this for a fact, but I'll assume Kneale took out a trademark on Quartermass and his estate maintained it. If he didn't take one out or the estate didn't maintain it, then there's little they can do now.

A trademark only applies to names and characters who appear on the packaging, not necessarily in the interior. In a comic book, for example, the characters have to appear on the cover to be trademarkable. That's why Marvel and DC used to have all those team-up books, so that characters who didn't have their own comics could be cover featured from time to time and not subject to trademark abandonment. That's also why, if the character was referred to by name in a word balloon on the cover, you'd get that awkward (tm) in the word balloon after the character's name.

In the case of a video, that would mean in the title or on the box. So, if the name Quartermass is used on the box of the video, there might be a trademark violation which the Kneales could act upon.

The producers of the video might also be claiming the use of Quartermass is a parody, thus protected as fair use. But that's a copyright concern. I'm not sure whether fair use applies to a trademark violation.

Hope this clarifies some of your questions.

Bob



Alan Coil
- Friday, July 3 2009 14:11:15

Dave Bruce

Dave Bruce --

Let me give you a more civil response than my friend Frank Church did.

Yes, Harlan is still alive, but you should have known this from the internet.

Yes, Harlan is still writing. He recently told the Pavilion he had sold another story.

And there was a documentary about Harlan on the Sundance Channel. You can buy it, if you'd like. Fine establishments will carry it, even Amazon. It's called Dreams With Sharp Teeth.


john zeock
- Friday, July 3 2009 13:30:0

News and a question
Sarah Palin resigning as of the end of the month. A copyright question-my friend, Gerry, a Cinemax fan, was watching an SF porn film and one of the characters was named Professor Quatermass. I know you can't copyright titles but is this something the Kneale estate should address or should they leave the film to its one handed viewers on the premise that calling attention to it would just make that much more people aware of it ? Happy 4th to all.


Tony Isabella <tony@wfcomics.com>
Medina, Ohio - Friday, July 3 2009 13:0:25

I have anger issues. They're filed in a long box between Angel and the Ape and Anthro.


alan
largo, fla. - Friday, July 3 2009 12:30:9

Frank your level of INSANITY is inspiring.

The notion of comparison Bush/Cheney to Nazi regimes goes without my needing to call you on it.I'm sure you don't literally mean it,but having read some of your past postings that hammer Israel for wanting to exist in PEACE and not have anymore Arab psychotics in their backyards has made me wonder.I fucking hate talking politics because there is really is no way to change someones opinion unless they really want to UNDERSTAND the other sides argument.You've formed your opinions from what sources you've found reliable,okay,I have the absolute reversal;I think the Palestinians are inherently violent due to their constant CHOICE of violent protest.
Prez.Bush was an idiot!Cheney was UNLAWFUL. Ask any Californian who went through the Black Outs from the Grids being shut-down and Energy costs peaking for record profits only weeks after meeting with Cheney.Ask any investor in ENRON who saw all their retirement flush away only months after meeting with Cheney.
Yes,Cheney was a Hack,a UNLAWFUL fuck!A man coming to the realization all He once stood for is now questioned including his Homophobic leanings.
To quickly embrace the term TORTURE in these times is in these TIMES,I think,questionable of an individual at minimum.
A fan of Pulp Fiction recognize alot of interrogation that has been described of Terror-Mates as standard operating procedure by Law Enforcement for decades.I'll admit Water-Boarding and Strip-Stacking is reprehesible, but so was Twin Towers.


Michael Rapoport
- Friday, July 3 2009 10:52:48

A little more info on that Dillon exhibit
(and thanks to Richard Cohen from this New York-area resident who hadn't previously been aware of it but will definitely check it out)

The Dillon exhibit is apparently still running, though it's unclear for how much longer - the gallery's website (fusiondesignsny.com) says only that it's "on view." The gallery is at 140 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn; it's near the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway or a short walk from several subway lines. One of the partners in the gallery and accompanying boutique is Lee Dillon, Leo and Diane's son and an artist himself.


Frank Church
- Friday, July 3 2009 10:18:9

Sorry to doublepost, but I have to ask Harlan:

Harlan, do you think todays College kids could understand or at least enjoy the humour of silent film stars like Charlie Chaplin? I say this because we are having a mini-war about this in the forums. Thanks.


Frank Church
- Friday, July 3 2009 9:36:5

Ok, this guy Demjanjuk, an SS Nazi guard, is finally sent to Germany for trial. The guy is on the verge of death, being nearly 90 years old, but Germany still finds a sense of justice to try this old cocksucker. Note the irony. No, we cannot try Bush or Cheney for their crimes even though they are fresh crimes and about as evil.

Kudos to Germany. At least you understand reality.

---------------

Bruce, find a swimming pool and stay at the bottom.


Mary
- Friday, July 3 2009 9:11:45

I understand about play, Jan and not taking life so seriously. It's when people get so immersed in Star Trek, sports, whatever to the point that their marriage, job, and individuality is lost, I tend to get a bit worried.

Then again, if this is what gives them pleasure and makes them happy, who am I to judge, especially if they're not hurting anyone?

On a more positive note...Trekkies 2 showed a segment where Denise and company traveled to Serbia, a country plagued by war and fear. Star Trek had made a tremendous impact on so many, and had given them a reason to hope that there is a future where everyone could get along. I can't argue with that...I like those kind of stories.

Read the bit in The Onion, ATC. That hit the nail on the head with a resounding bang. Ouch!


Alex Krislov <alexkrislov@cs.com>
- Friday, July 3 2009 7:32:40

Bob Ingersoll
Congrats, Bob. My wife went on disability under STRS, the State Teachers equivalent of PERS. It is a win-win, if you're ready to leave.

But your gain is Cuyahoga's loss. It annoys the hell out of me that my county is so hot to dump its most experienced employees to save a few bucks. It's a pennywise, pound foolish approach to government.


Adam-Troy Castro <adamcastro999@yahoo.com>
- Friday, July 3 2009 7:10:57

On Fandom
The discussion that ensued from my reference to Trekkies 2 prompts me to post a link to this, to my mind the most succinct and most cutting thing ever written on the subject of fandom in general.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38664


Richard Cohen
Miami, Florida - Friday, July 3 2009 5:25:24

* New Yorkers * Note:
Whoops: here's the reference for that
http://file770.com/?cat=164

Richard


Richard Cohen
Miami, Florida - Friday, July 3 2009 5:23:6

* New Yorkers * Note:
Came across the Andrew Porter report
of
a DILLON exhibit which opened May 24
at Fusion Designs Gallery in Brooklyn.

It could still be in place, so you noveboracensic types
might want to call up and inquire.

Richard


Jan M Schroeder <janmschroeder@aol.com>
Clermont, FL - Friday, July 3 2009 2:58:6

Trekkies and fandom
In response to Mary's questions, I submit that one could just as easily say the same about any serious hobbyist. The most easily compared for me are sports fanatics. Some sports fans dress up like their favorite player, paint themselves their team colors, re-enact plays from Important Games, talk endlessly about statistics, collect memorabilia... Sound familiar?

Why do people think that Trekkies and SF fans are stranger than sports fans or Civil War enthusiasts when they engage in many of the same activities?

It's about play because not everything in life has to be serious and full of purpose. Some take it more seriously than others but they're doing something that brings them pleasure.

Jan S.


Iain Aitken <reddragon70@aol.com>
Dumfries, Scotland - Friday, July 3 2009 2:23:2

Yugos and cars in general
Car jokes are always a popular subject for me. I love all the variations of the theme that you get. Here in the UK Yugos tend not to be the main brunt of these gags, though I am sure they have been, with the main targets being Ladas, Skodas and a few other weird and wonderful manufacturers thrown in.

One that has always made me laugh was this one... What do you call a Lada/Skoda/Yugo (delete as applicable) with two exhausts? A wheelbarrow. There are a few other ones but as they are a rather sexist and not politically correct I will refrain from telling them.

The funny thing is that for me the foreign import car is the home grown one. Now though I drive an imported job, a PT Cruiser. American car, gearbox like stirring porridge filled with bolts... However I do like it. I used to have a Ford Puma (which sadly was never sold in the USA) and I loved that car. 0-60 MPH is a little over 8 seconds, stuck to the road like glue and had beautiful handling. However all my friends took the piss out of it, saying it was a hairdresser's car.... Hmmmmph.

All that said though I have always believed that a car should do exactly what is required of it. Namely get from A to B whilst not being at C too often (C being the Garage, petrol station etc etc). What it looks like is not that important. How big it is, likewise not that important. Colour? I'm with Henry Ford!


David Ray <shaneeray@comcast.net>
Bellevue, WA - Thursday, July 2 2009 23:30:25

Big day for me - I turned 50 today!! To quote of one Harlan's favorites, Satchel Paige: "Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter." My sweet wife Orit made a wonderful dinner tonight. I am truly blessed to have her as my wife. I don't want to imagine what I'd be without her...

David


Semi-Writer
Los Angeles, California - Thursday, July 2 2009 23:19:42

Conventions
Tricky things, fan gatherings. While in Norfolk, Virginia in 1994, I witnessed the behind-the-scenes failure of a convention. It all disintegrated within a mere 48 hours of its scheduled start due to poor ticket sales. Plans for celebrity guest stars to appear (including a certain actor who was once thrown unceremoniously--albeit deservedly--across a bar by Harlan Ellison) disintegrated within hours. The vendors, who'd arranged for the trip out there, were HIGHLY pissed. (The fact that the Head Organizer was orchestrating everything out of the attic/bedroom in his mother's house was a good clue that someone's ambitions had exceeded their know-how.)

But then you have the successful ones that shine with an admirable level of skill and excellence... a world where "Star Wars" battles "Star Trek" and everyone walks away a winner... http://tinyurl.com/n2gnl9


Rob
- Thursday, July 2 2009 23:12:44

'Scuse me! I mean "apprise yourself OF"......!!


Rob
- Thursday, July 2 2009 23:9:41


To Mike Jacka,

Re: breaking bread with the good Governor Sanford...

You seem to be attaching the argument to that of casting stone, thereby missing what this is all about.

So, I urge you to run to the dictionary and look up a word.

It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

THEN apprise yourself about what Sanford helped do to Clinton in the 1990's.

After that, you can decide whether or not you still want to be Sanford's altar boy.


Rob
- Thursday, July 2 2009 23:9:22


To Mike Jacka,

Re: breaking bread with the good Governor Sanford...

You seem to be attaching the argument to that of casting stone, thereby missing what this is all about.

So, I urge you to run to the dictionary and look up a word.

It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

THEN apprise yourself about what Sanford helped do to Clinton in the 1990's.

After that, you can decide whether or not you still want to be Sanford's altar boy.


David Loftus <dloft59 (at) earthlink.net>
Portland, Oregon - Thursday, July 2 2009 23:3:41

Yes but Yu-(don't)-go


CHUCK MESSER:

Loved the Yugo jokes. I'll never forget an ad-libbed remark by one of the hosts of Car Talk when they were counseling a guy who was trying to decide whether to spring for a fancy foreign car. Lotta fun, yes, but it'll be hard to get service and parts over here, they told him. Then one of them added, "Or you could just pick up a six-pack of Yugos."


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