Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Archive - 7/21/2004 to 9/28/2004

Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

REPLY TO JIM LEWIS

Sir:

The onerous imposition you relate has happened to me SO MANY times that I would be hard-pressed to recall this particular one midst the plethora going back close to 50 years. Though it never fails to anger me -- that you say as politely as you can, "I have to go to the bathroom" or "I can't stop to pose, I have a plane to catch" or "I'm meeting friends for lunch and I don't want to keep them waiting" or "My wife is calling me" or "I've been here for four days, signing autographs for hours at a time, walking around in full view, and making myself accessible for just such souvenirs, why do you wait till the last, most inappropriate moment to demand attention" or "what part of 'No, I'd rather not have my picture snapped right now' didn't penetrate to your cerebral dumpheap?" -- no matter how gentlemanly or strenuously I may phrase it -- there are always those one or two or three socially-maladroit showoffs who MUST try to control you by forcing you to their will in front of others. Most of the time I can stare them down or blow them off (which is where much of my "reputation" for being uncivil or ominous comes from, because how do you think the idiot will tell it when s/he bitches about it over Big Macs?) but every once in a while it's easier and quicker just to DO IT and hope the arrant shithead is killed in the parking lot soon after, run over by a U-Haul full of illegal aliens fleeing the Border Patrol.

That you have remembered this gaffe so long, and that it has disquieted you suficiently to embolden an apology, is very nice. Thank you. It speaks well of the serviceability of your ethical compass. But, in truth, it's one bit of rusty memory persiflage ready to be booted. Because I am the captain of MY ship, the master of MY fate, and I'm the one who chose to allow that festering homunculus to detain me. So it was MY responsibility, bottom-line, not yours, no matter how odious being a party to it may seem in retrospect.

Thanks again; and let it go, son.

Yr. pal, Harlan

Doc,

You are a very spirited gentleman, and I likes you fine indeed.

Thanks for letting me out of the doghouse.

Lee

Eric: Yeah, what Jim Lewis said. I think you were shooting from the hip (or from the lip) and just trying to make a point, but IMO people are largely the sum of their pasts and cultures. We can and should transcend those things, but I for one don't want to leave them behind. I can be me and let you be you while both of our identities remain intact. If only that were globally true...

FinderDoug: I spoke to Jim Davis late last week and at that point he was unscathed by all the hurricane activity. He had yet to weather Jeanne though, so I hope all is still well. I told him to call if he needed anything or things went badly, and I haven't heard from him, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I guess I should call him again soon...

He is seriously considering moving out of Florida though, and who can blame him?

Cindy: I really hope you win the election. Why will you abdicate? I think you'd do a great job. Keep us posted on how your election goes. I'd love to see you with a tin star and a six-shooter.

PAB

With all this talk of Computer (cartoon!) Generated Images, I really miss the days of Ray Harryhausen. Even his crudest work still looked real. He had a speaking engagement here in Toronto, and I did not go to it.

Harlan,
I just read that California had another of the ol' shake, rattle, and roll. Hope you and the missus and Ellison Wonderland are okay.

Cheers, Colleen

Hello everybody...long time listener...first time caller...I've been wanting to jump into the water here for a while, so here goes...

Everyone here has kicked this dead horse, so let me get the toe of my boot into its soft underbelly, too. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I found Mr. Martin's comments to be a little disturbing.

I don't think differences of culture - and the concomitant pride in (or shame of) those differences - is the problem. So, squelching who you are (and who someone else is) in the hope that when everyone is the same all of the problems of the world will disappear is an exercise in futility.

[I think it was comedian Dennis Miller who questioned why he should hate someone based on their skin color (or culture, or religion...), when if he just got to know them he could find better reasons for hating their stinking guts.]

What I'm questioning is this: can you really say F-this and F-that about someone's culture (including your own), and then cease to be affected by that culture? I don't see how it’s possible. Unless you find someway to live without human contact - including contact with yourself.

Having said all that, I am certainly not condoning anybody's right to call violence against someone else a part of their "culture". THAT'S the real problem in the world. But shutting yourself off from the world (and what makes up that world) isn't going to solve anything.

I hope that you were just shooting from the hip, Mr. Martin.

Enough from me about all that...

Mr. Castro...are you talking about NIGHT AND FEAR? If so, I just got a copy of that collection, too. If you listen hard enough, you will hear the sound of one hand clapping (with glee!)...because I'm holding the book open with the other hand! A great collection from a great writer. Mr. Nevins should be applauded...with both hands...

I have a question for Mr. Ellison...

I saw you appear at the World Horror Convention 2000 in Denver. During your speaking gig, you mentioned the difference between Jewish humor and Gentile (?) humor. You gave an example of each. The Gentile joke was the one about the blind man's dog dragging him across a busy intersection. (I'm not rewarding him...I'm trying to find his head so I can kick him in the butt!) The Jewish one was about the old man who is given a sexy call girl by his friends. (I've come to give you super sex...So, what's the soup?) And you talked about how, for Jewish humor, the pleasure is in the build-up and the punch line is usually a cute little release of that build-up.

My question is this: is this how one should read your story LAUGH TRACK? (What...and leave show business?) Because this story immediately came to mind during your talk. Just curious...

Also...Mr. Ellison...This is something that you’ve long since forgotten, but it still sticks in my craw, so I’d like to get it off my chest. This happened at the same World Horror Convention. I'll try to keep it short.

My wife and I were staying at a B&B in Denver. Another guest was also staying there for the convention. He looked like a real-life version of Inspector Clouseau from the Pink Panther cartoon. We spoke at breakfast, and later he saved us a seat for one of the panel discussions you were part of. (David Morrell and Richard Laymon were also on the panel.) We didn't ask him to do so, but who am I to refuse front row seats?

Anyway...after the discussion was over and everyone was leaving, this guy hands me his camera and asks me to take a picture. Now, I'm not someone to say no very easily - it’s a character flaw - but I especially wished I had said it then. He accosted you as you were walking out. He asked if he could have a picture. You said that you didn't have time, that you were meeting someone (perhaps your wife?) for lunch (or dinner...the details are hazy). He pressed you, and you said fine, but hurry. He put his arms about your shoulders and turned you to me.

I wanted to melt into the carpet. I felt like such an absolute fool. You looked so angry (but you smiled nice when I said, "Cheese!").

As somebody who read your essay XENOGENESIS with a feeling of disgust for fandom, I can only say I'm sorry. I know it was just a photo, and that it wasn't anonymously signing you up for magazine subscriptions (or even a cup of warm, fresh vomit), but it made me sick to be a part of, and I’d like to apologize. For myself. Not that other guy. F**k him...and his culture...

Thanks for listening...everybody...so long...

SPOILERS: Sky Captain
Adam-Troy Castro:
Much has already been written about Sky Captain that I mostly agree with. It sacrifices heart and soul for eye-candy. For me, the major problem is the pacing/editing, particularly the first 10 minutes. It just feels completely off.

But rather than belabor points already mentioned, I want to focus on the “perfect punch line” you mentioned. I found it wonting, and I think a lot of moviegoers did too. I saw the film twice, and both times that final line landed with a thud. Here’s why: It wants to have it both ways. On the one hand, Kerry Conran, the director, wants us to go “Aww shucks, she sacrificed her final shot for an expression of love/smitteness.” But the joke—“lens cap”—only works if she had taken the photo of the landscape and parachuting menagerie. THEN it would have been funny. Who cares that she had the lens cap on while taking a picture of Sky Captain? She could take as many as she wants later. As it is now, it’s just limp. I really wish Conran had another six months to revise certain elements because I think that with the addition of 5-10 more minutes of character embellishment this could’ve been a major blockbuster akin to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I was reminded of this while watching Empire of Dreams, the Lucas documentary on the Star Wars discs. That documentary firmly illustrates how one can turn a celluloid sow’s ear into a silk purse simply with genius editing and a fantastic score.
Dan

ERIC SPEAKS FOR ME!!!

Adam-Troy: "Thanks to CGI, anything the human mind can imagine, can be captured on film"

Sadly, we ain't quite there yet. Having followed up on what Hollywood is doing with the upcoming FF movie (you've given me the outlet to rant!), an inevitably cgi-heavy outing, I can report to you that every conceivable advantage one would expect cgi to meet is being missed. It may make the Corman atrocity seem like a Bunuel masterpiece!

The Thing will be in a suit (it looks awful!); the Torch will not be fully engulfed in flame; Sue Storm is a hispanic bleached to look caucasian; Latveria is no longer a country but a corporation (swing with the times!), and other script modifications abound to meet budget constraints. (The general casting could be better too)

A few years ago a friend of mine saw Cameron's Titanic on an expanded screen. He saw the people on the ship in full shots for what they WERE: cartoons scurrying about like Tex Avery's rodents. The new ratio didn't work. We've imroved a LITTLE since then, but not much. It's going to take some time, yet, before we can really say "ANYTHING can be captured on film".

From what I've seen and heard, the FF movie will be the biggest disappointment of ALL the comics adaptations thus far (admittedly, in large part because of the producers' creative/visonary deficiencies). It's a damn shame. In the theater or on tape/dvd, I won't give it the time of day.

Henry Miller may just crawl out of the grave as a zombie to attack that person who dissed him. lol.

Eric is about as poetic as a scab--but a cute scab.

------------

Cindy, you scare me.

basic knowledge

While I can appreciate the general thrust of your screed against divisiveness, Eric, we are speaking in a forum devoted to a writer who has repeatedly expressed his outrage over the general ignorance of average Americans -- who don't recognize references to Capra's "Lost Horizon," Dachau, or other historical and cultural mileposts.

I think most players overreacted in the recent tiff, but there was some truth in all positions. No, I don't necessarily know what state all my good friends were born in, but I would expect to know which country, were they from overseas. I had a hard time distinguishing between Iran and Iraq three or four years ago, but not anymore. Keeping some kind of tab on the news as well as reading excellent books like Nafisi's _Reading Lolita in Tehran_ and Geraldine Brooks's _Nine Parts of Desire_ helps.

To some extent, we Americans all share the casual ignorance of power: we not only have access to far more comfort and goods than the average inhabitant of this planet, but other people defer to us -- they learn our language, watch our movies and TV shows, often have to live (and die) with the messes our government and corporations bequeath to them.

Remember the line recycled by the recent Spidey movies? "With great power comes great responsibility"? Even as average Americans, we are powerful and therefore might consider ourselves obligated to go the extra mile in knowing what goes on in the world and the effects our country's actions have on it. Our current administration acts like it is impelled by such considerations, but my impression is that it acts less upon its responsibility toward the world, than a desire for even greater power in it.

SKY CAPTAIN and other bits
Alex Jay: yes, me Jewish. Me not hispanic, by any reasonable measurement. I don't even speak the language. (My father's ancestral nationality is actually Greek -- a jewish community where spanish is commonly spoken, thanks in part to a certain event from 1492.) A few years back, I reflected to Shawna McCarthy that she and I were the most unlikely-named Jews in the science fiction community -- even Dafydd ab Hugh doesn't count, as he PICKED that pseudonym. And Gut Yomtov to you, too.

On another current subject, here's what I wrote elsewhere:

Judi and I have been eagerly awaiting SKY CAPTAIN AND THE WORLD OF TOMORROW since the first coming attraction, during RETURN OF THE KING.

We have been frustrated, in past weeks, by weather and by folks who saw it without us.

We caught up with it today.

We were less than impressed.

* sigh *

Look, it's not like we're resistant to this kind of thing. We liked STAR WARS, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, and SPIDER-MAN; there are any number of other junky popcorn entertainments we find just peachy-keen.

But, you know.

We have reached a point, in cinema history, where filmmakers are no longer constrained by simple human limitations. Thanks to CGI, anything the human mind can imagine, can be captured on film: from fifty-story dinosaurs terrorizing cities, to the creatures of HARRY POTTER, to epic battles in space, to aerial assaults by winged vampires, to the vast tapestries of
J.R.R. Tolkien. We *know* this. It's long-established, and the simple fact of it has ceased to amaze.

When a movie invests all of its weight on the simple magic
trick, and nothing in pacing, dialogue, characters we care about, or even ideas...it's as dull as it would have been if the sets had been cardboard and the explosions had been sparklers waved behind foreshortened windows.

Ten minutes of SKY CAPTAIN was more than enough for me.

After that, I simply couldn't care less about any of it.

I don't fault the actors. Jude Law and Gwyneth Paltrow are
fine eye candy and should have chemistry, but they have nothing to do in such a void. Angelina Jolie enlivens the film for the all of ten minutes she's in it, but similarly has little to do. As for poor Lawrence Olivier -- well, his corpse is not raped all THAT badly.

The problem, again, is the script, and the direction, which gives us no reason to care.

Here's the paradox: place vivid characters and a compelling story against a featureless black backdrop, as Lars Van Trier did in DOGVILLE, and as any number of theatre productions have done on stage, and we care: we become invested. Place cyphers and a pointless mishmash against a blue screen, and we don't care. We become distanced. And I'm happy to report
that it's not a question of dumbing down the audience, because the rather large audience at our matinee seemed to feel the same way. Nobody laughed. Nobody applauded. Nobody cried out or cheered at the hair's-breadth escapes. Once our asses were in our seats, we saw through it, even though we went prepared to like it.

There were all of three moments, in all of SKY CAPTAIN, that I perked up with genuine amusement. Only one had to do with visual design: and that was the lines of longitude and latitude, clearly visible on the landscape below the plane. The other two, which downright delighted me, were character moments. One was a neat trick involving the registration numbers on Sky Captain's plane, and the other involved the last thirty seconds of the film: a perfect punch line, which would have been even more satisfying in a better movie.

Otherwise: a total disappointment.

That's an insult to Henry Miller, who put thought into his writing and did not repeat cliches.

Steve Dooner

Eric

Mr. Martin,

I believe you just channeled the ghost of Henry Miller.

Wow.

Neal

Culture fetish

I stayed out of the Doc roast, although a lot of it seemed predicated on his statement that he didn't know if his friend was Iraqi or Iranian.

Good for Doc. Fuck the difference between Iraqis and Iranians.

I say to all of you: fuck your culture. Fuck your religion, fuck your language, and fuck your cuisine. Fuck all those things that make you different from everyone else.

Go ahead, say it...fuck my heritage. Fuck my ancestors, fuck my country, fuck my history. Fuck all those cute little things that only MY people do, eat, or say. Fuck my nation's idiot armies. Fuck our flag, fuck our national anthem, fuck whatever celebrates, encourages, or enforces our differences from everyone else.

It's liberating. And maybe if we all try it at once, we can start fucking each other, instead of fucking each other over.

Peace.

Sky Captain preview
This is a response to Rob Ewen's request for a preview of Sky Captain & TWOT.

The movie is an awesome technological achievement. You should see it just on that basis, its visual beauty.

The question is, of course, is that enough for you?

I'm 45 years old and grew up on movies as did I'm sure the majority of the posters in this forum. For me this movie was a continuous process of “spot the reference”. All art has precursors, but successful art digests its influences, and great art transcends them. But there’s none of that here.

This movie shows not one iota of imagination whatsoever. Oh they went to every graveyard in the land, collecting body parts. They laid them out on the operating table and stitched them together masterfully. But then they looked at what they had done and were mystified that the body didn’t rise and speak. They had forgotten that “great ray that first brought life into the world.” What is that “ray?” Why, imagination of course.

I realize it sounds completely contradictory but you should still go and see the movie for its visual beauty. It’ll help to have a sweet tooth cause this one’s all icing and no cake.

Harlan - What Alex said. It was good fortune when you steered Owl over to the Table O' Webderlanders at I-CON in 2003 - he's soft-spoken and personable and a very nice individual - and if there's anything that he needs that can be done from the Northeast, send up a flare.

PAB - Speaking of hurricanes, Webderlanders and I-CON, has Jim Davis emerged to say he's weathered the storm?

Cindy - I think what you've written is very good - direct, articulate, plainly yet strongly stated. Would that you were the Texan at the helm of a much larger political evdeavor. ;) If I perceive a risk, it's in your being the pivot point between the people who've signed your petition to be a candidate, and the powers who would choose a replacement upon your resignation. It requires a leap of faith with the Mason County Commissioners and the County Judge that they will hold up their end of the bargain - and with your intent clearly stated, it gives the powers that you would oppose the opportunity to make their political moves and contingency plans in the event you do win the position. I wish you luck - and I applaud your desire and your attempt to make a difference.

SKY CAPTAIN AND THE WORLD OF TOMORROW

This film has yet to open in the UK, and I'm a little concerned about some of the reports I'm hearing. A couple of my Ellisonian friends have fallen in love with it, while others loathe it with a vengeance (including one Webderlander).

I enjoyed THE SHADOW and THE ROCKETEER, and I believed this would be in the same vein, given its intended homages to the pulps. Would any other US Webderlanders care to comment before the film hits these shores?

Thanks
Rob

HARLAN: Tell Owl if he ends up needing support (interestingly, a goodly number of my friends at the IRS are working the FEMA line; I do hope he got one of them when he called) beyond what insurance and the government give, he can count on several crazy Ellison-appreciators chipping in.
(A confession: Though I've heard the name, I don't think I've read anything of Mr. Goingback's. What would you recommend as a starting point?)

ADAM-TROY: Very good to hear you've weathered the weather, whether wet or windy. But by the by: Landsman you? Es gezint! Let us hope your inscription in the Book of Life for this year is a dryer and happier one than at its outset.

DTS: "Satchel Paige bobbing head" ... ooooh. I've resisted the urge to get into the baseball memorabilia game too heavily, because another addiction, I don't need.
(which reminds me: I still have to hang the framed and signed picture of Pete Gray my best friend gave me)
But the Satch is one of my fav'rits.
(another aside in a post full of them: What writings have you done of late? Any we might buy, or read on the 'Net?)

DOC: Two truths: You're a good egg. And you overreacted.

No worries; so did others on this board; so do we all at times. I know it's not a time or happenstance which engenders patience andgrace, but if you can find it in your heart--in time--please do try to let it wash over you and pass along. The vast majority of us here are good people, for all our occasional imbroglios and brabblings. It would diminish us all were you to allow this tiff to taint all your future Webderlandings.

BRIAN: I only met the person in question--if I read you right--once, but I could have written reams on the personalities he held inside: The open face, and that which lay just beneath. There is a driving force there, but I think it could be one which could drive past this particular imagined affront. Besides, you're too valuable to the Park and Festival.

CINDY: I'm afraid I don't understand your aim--are you angling to be elected only to abdicate? And if you are, and you do, who's to say that the Board won't simply reappoint the current officeholder?
How many others are running? Are there any close to being acceptable? Are you well-known enough in the community to get a write-in victory? That is, after all, the hardest way to win a race. Further, what sort of campaigning will you be doing besides the ad? What favors can you call in for exposure?

Lastly--is this the paper for which you write? I worry that it could be seen as being overly partisan, and could lead later to party reprisals.

BARNEY: Speaking of race and the way we have yet to go--did you see Leonard Pitts' Sept. 24 column? Apparently, there will not only be at the Mississippi State Fair a booth run by Richard Barrett, head of the white supremacist Nationalist Movement, but that said booth will have as attraction one Edgar Ray Killen, who will be shaking hands and offering autographs.

The name is unfamiliar, I know, so let me cast light on things: Edgar Ray Killen, ordained Baptist minister, is the main suspect in--and is still under investigation for--the murders of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney.

Makes me wish I lived in Mississippi, so I could park my ass in front of the booth and NOT FUCKING MOVE.

Cindiana Jones:

"I grasp that it is only by the application of truth and the adherence to law that we, as a society, can survive. I am running for Mason County Sheriff, because I believe; if the least among us is not protected, no one is safe.In Mason, we should feel comforted and safe when we see our local officers, not concerned."

Proud of ya, dear. Hell, *I'd* vote for you.

Chuck

Lovely books
I just bought a copy of Seth and John Gallant's "Bannock, Beans and Black Tea: Memories of a Prince Edward Island Childhood in the Great Depression" for my father for his 69th birthday, simply on the basis of what a gorgeously designed book this little hardcover is. If you've got a chance, pick it up -- it's the most beautifully nostalgic-looking little volume I've seen in a long time. You'll know what I mean once you see it.

Cheers, Jon

Comentary one step removed
*** The Roth thread *** I'm glad Harlan chimed in with those Roth remarks. While it wouldn't suprise me that Roth wouldn't know Harry Turtledove or, to go back to reading more contemporaneous with a younger Roth, Farmer or De Camp, it would have been stretching credulity to imagine that he had never encountered anything like alternate history fiction. To reference my favorite, it's as though he wants patient readers to forget about the existence of things like A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT. C'mon. And the tone he took in TIME magazine was similar to the NYT piece. This made me think of an old Longfellow quote -

"Remember that the secret studies of an author are the sunken piers upon which is to rest the bridge of his fame, spanning the dark waters of oblivion. They are out of sight; but without them no superstructure can stand secure."

*** The DOC thread *** Getting back to Doc's initial question about media representation, etc. I would like to recommend a book called THE REEL CIVIL WAR - Mythmaking In American Film [isbn #0-375-40918-1] by Bruce Chadwick. Chadwick is a Civil War scholar who has written a fair amount about race. This book is a survey and examination of the nearly 800 films released since 1903 [Uncle Tom's Cabin since you asked] which have the Civil War and/or race relations as their subject matter. It shows the sort of process... - screw that, the hoops MEDIA jumps through when confronted with a matter as large as race relationships that have resulted in bloodshed. I think this book goes a long way to addressing some of the questions I thought Doc was asking AND it does it at a remove. I can't say a SAFE remove because this country is far from done with race issues but 50-100 years is a buffer which provides some objectivity. Of course whitey wrote the book but what the hell.

*** Cindy *** I'm not sure you're helping the electoral process by offering to turn the process over to someone other than the electorate to ultimately decide but it certainly is a Republican solution. A *REAL* Texan would keep the job and deputize her sons. I'm just sayin'. ;-) How tall aren't you anyway?

*** Rick/DragonCon photos *** OK, nobody suggested a good free hosting site. Everywhere I've looked has really difficult pain in the ass space parameters for posting and accesibility issues so I'll burn them to a CD and mail them to Rick and we'll let web deities sort things out.

*** Owl Goingback *** Oh, man. I met him at I-Con last year and I think we got along great. I say I think 'cause he's a little shy on demostrative side next to me but I really liked him and was sorry as hell to have missed his reading. Bought some of his books right out of his book bag. I wish I could choose who this shit happens to. Perservere Owl.

STILL waiting to hear from my buddy Dylan in Pensacola...

- Barney

Cindy!! Runnin for office....
Cindy,

Looks like you’re still fighting for justice down in Texas. You finally threw George out of the state four years ago, and now you’re getting rid of the rest of the creeps. I think what you have is good, but here’s my suggested re-write for what it’s worth…but please bear in mind that I’m not an editor or a writer, just a reader and political aficionado. (The radiation from DC affects most of us within a 50 mile radius or so, and I’m only a few miles out.)

“I am running for Mason County Sheriff because I believe if the least among us is not protected, no one is safe. We should feel comforted and safe when we see our local officers, not concerned.

I thank all of the people who signed my petition to run for Sheriff. It was brave of each of you, and I thank you for your courage. If elected I will take the oath of office, and then will offer to resign so the Mason County Commissioners and the County Judge can appoint a worthy candidate to the office.

The Texas Secretary Of State has issued a written opinion that my actions in this case are legal.

I have an iron determination to protect the dignity, health and private property of all Mason Citizens; from the highest office holder to the most defenseless prisoner. It is only by the application of truth and the adherence to law that we, as a community, can survive.

I ask for your vote, and for your faith that the will of the people can be heard. Please write my name, Cindy Jones, in the "write in" place on the ballot.

Thank you.”

If you like it, and the paper somehow hasn’t gone final yet, please use it. If not, I think your original letter is wonderful, and heart-felt, and big. I hope you win, but I hope they refuse your resignation and keep you on. ;)

PS - If you got your petition through, why isn't your name on the ballot? Was it a timing issue? And are things really so bad that you have to run to change them?

-Keith

Rob writes, "Cult-minded board members were insulting each other, blindly misinterpreting each other, threatening petitions against people they didn’t like, and so on. All this shit over COMICS, fer chrissake."
Let me guess, Rob, you were on the DC message boards? Yeah, they can be that bad; but there's good people on them too. And they aren't all adults; there's a fair share of teens and young "adults" on them, as well.
Thank you, whoever delivered the skinny on "The Forgotten". I know now not to waste my or my wife's time on it. We are in your debt.

Frank,
You'd be more likely to get me to eat spam. If he'd been Howard Dean you might have had a prayer... under the circumstances, ain't no way baby.

;)
Cindy

Doc,
You and PAB can be friends, she's a treasure and you're a delight! Those are compatable!

Cindy

Adam Troy,
I'm grateful that you made it through the storm. May the rest of the season be smooth sailin'.

Cindy

Eric Martin,
Big bunches of bluebonnets are blooming in the pasture. My husband Quinn said the old timers around here always said when bluebonnets bloom a second time look for a rough, cold winter. Quinn said he's never seen any in September in his life. He said these were big full mounds of them.

I grew up in Austin-- so I don't know much about weather prediction by plants. He's usually right about that sort of thing though, his family has been on the same land here since the 1860's. Every generation has stayed right here in Mason County so I guess they would pick up a few things like that. He has another one-- something about if a snake dies on it's back-- uhh, it means it will rain... or, uh, not.
:)
Cindy




OKAY, y'all I need a little feed back.

I should have gotten it sooner but I was struggling with what I wanted to do here. The editor of the paper gave me a free spot to declare and I didn't know if I wanted to take him up on it or not. I made up my mind about five minutes before the deadline. Here is what he will be putting in this weeks paper;

I thank all of the people who signed my petition to be a candidate in this Sherriff's race. It was brave of each of you to step out under current circumstances to give me the opportunity to run. This race is crucial. I thank you for your courage. If elected I will take the oath of office. I will then offer to resign in order for the Mason County Commissioners and the County Judge to appoint a Sheriff of their own choosing; whomever that may be. The Texas Secretary Of State has issued a written opinion that my actions in this case are legal.
I am qualified because I meet all of the requirements set by the State of Texas to run for Sheriff. My other qualifications include an iron determination to protect the dignity, health and private property of all Mason Citizens, from the highest office holder to the most defenseless prisoner. I grasp that it is only by the application of truth and the adherence to law that we, as a society, can survive. I am running for Mason County Sheriff, because I believe; if the least among us is not protected, no one is safe.In Mason, we should feel comforted and safe when we see our local officers, not concerned.
I ask for your vote, and for your faith that the will of the people can be heard. Please write my name, Cindy Jones, in the "write in" place on the ballot.

Whadya think?
Cindy

I'm truly glad I didn't wander into the Doc debates. This past weekend, I found that a friend of mine, someone for whom I've done a fair amount of community work, is an extremely paranoid person who turns on people without a moment's pause.

In a nut. This friend runs a community music festival, he;ld twice a year in a local park. The festival has had problems with local community groups, and more recently, the use of a stage from the Dept. of Recreation has required that we hold the Festival in a park area prone to neighbors' complaints. This year, we'd agreed on a particular placement of the stage, and that some of us'd be out there at 6 ayem to ensure that things we smoothly.

Said friend suddenly raises the alarm about local 'elite groups" trying to kill the people's music. I check with Rec, and find that his alarm is pretty much baseless. I explain as much to him, and agree to be out there the next morning for the stage.

Thereupon I suddenly get a long, angry, insulting email, accusing me of bad faith, of not fulfilling my duties, and of trying to take his festival away from him. Others have received similar communications in the past, but I'd chalked it up to light crankiness. Now I have to blame it on something more deep-seated, low-down, and sinister.

The Festival was actually lots of fun. But it's sad when someone turns on ya like that.

Doc: Harlan says you're a good guy, and I'm willing to take his word for it, so I'll try to be gentle (though it's not in my nature so I may do it poorly). I had no idea you wanted to take this hullaballoo private; in fact, you seemed to want to have it out here. I suggested you take it to the Forum, a suggestion that you ignored, AFAIK. I was just following your lead.

I don't have a burning need to be your friend, but I am not your enemy, for sure. I know how easily these brush fires can turn into bonfires, and how one can say things in the heat of the moment instead of taking a break and cooling off first. I myself have been guilty of this, to my own great embarrassment. I offered you that advice in good faith.

However, I stand by my conviction that threatening to depart in high dudgeon, only to come back repeatedly, is really obnoxious behavior, and insincere to boot. Anyone who behaves that way, friend, foe, or random stranger, aggravates me. Yours was only the latest in a series of performances just like it, and I finally decided to address the issue. As such, my comments on your withdrawal from the community were directed not only at you but also at everyone else who has pulled the same trick. Don't take it too personally.

Stick around, Doc. Being here long enough gives you an asbestos skin and an appreciation for the snidely wit-lash one can get from the whipsmart characters around here. Would Harlan like us all so much if we weren't a bunch of mensches (well, most of us, most of the time, anyway)?

PAB

>Notice the media is not mentioning the environmental reasons behind the hurricanes. It is very possible that global climate change is the cause of this wild storm season. >

I noticed, Frank, and I agree with you. Global warming is the cause of the changed storm patterns. Money talks...now that the insurance companies are paying out of the ass, you may finally see some corporate lobbying to reduce greenhouse emissions.

--Eric

Just a quick note to M. Castro, to express some joy at hearing that hearth and family are well under the circumstances.

Glad to know someone facing a real problem is well and coping with good cheer, leaving me less bitchy about the mundane within usage of paintbrushes, rollers, fixtures and marrets.

To all who may be concerned: Mel will not be returning to the site. The only fault for this lays in the increased workload she's undertaken from her new studio (another Reeston masterpiece! How do I do it?) and continuing volunteer work with the elderly and mentally ill in the area. She thanks one and all for the companionship, and assures that if she's got time she'll stop and say hi. Until then, I'm to be the conduit.

As for me, I'll be picking up the slack at home with the kids and chores, so I'll be in less often too. Not goodbye, just a heads up to those who might comment to me. Please have a bit of patience if I'm not as prompt in response.

Scott

Natural disasters and other entertainment
Harlan, Adam-Troy, your exchange reminds me of the Northridge earthquake. Everybody here in unscathed America was trying to phone people in California. I recall that Peter David was the first to get through to Harlan; he posted a plea on CompuServe for aid to our worthy host. I reached Steve Gerber (whose bookcase had walked down the stairs without falling over) and Marv Wolfman. A mutual friend finally got hold of David Gerrold, who'd run outside starkers. But it took days to make sure everyone was okay. Really nerve-wracking. I never realized I cared about so many people in California until that quake. And once one of us reached one of those in the victimized area, we all knew the news.

For all the caterwauling over the evils of the internet--and I've certainly done my share of complaining--the ability to spread news, good and bad, is one of its great strengths.

Notice the media is not mentioning the environmental reasons behind the hurricanes. It is very possible that global climate change is the cause of this wild storm season. I would get ready for a bitch's tit of a winter.

---------

Cindy, one more chance, saying this on my knees--please, please vote for Kerry. For me!! Flashes grin, fans out a load of green bills. Pleasssssssssssssse!!

God is watching. lol

Harlan: Thank you very much for your kind words and generous assessment of my character. I'll call you in a day or two; meanwhile I can only reiterate how frustrating it is to try to tell people things when they simply WILL NOT hear you. It was knocked off at the end of my last post - there are people here with whom I will simply no longer interact. I do apologize to you, Rick and the rest of the innocent Webderlander by-standers - if this could have been handled through private email, I would have been delighted to do so; contrariwise, I don't think I should be faulted too heavily for being unable to allow the opposition to have the last word. At the moment, that seems less important than it did in the heat of things. Anyway, I've resolved my end of the matter to my satisfaction, and I hope to yours, Rick's and the good people here.

Rick: Yeah - I knew it was on fire when I lay down on it (to coin a phrase). Mea culpa. If there is music to face, strike up the band. If you need to make an example, I happily submit to your sense of justice and fair play. Tell me what to do and it shall be done (even another review).

Naiki: Thank you, too, for your kind words. Explanation of the situation would probably only rekindle an unnecessary agrument. I'm sure that if the people you told in your travels saw you regularly, they'd do a better job of remembering. Meanwhile, I evidently missed it in your post, or you didn't mention - what part of China are you from? I used to know a fellow whose father was from mainland China while his mother was born and raised in Germany. When I met him, in Austin, TX, he told me that he had moved down a few years before from Canada, where *he'd* been born! Feel free to email me privately if you wish, or maybe we'll see more of you around here?

Rob: As was frequently mentioned in the trenches of WWI, it was a busy time. Things were said, understandings were missed and so on. We're good, as far as I'm concerned. If you would, email me privately, please? There's something I'd like to talk to you about.

Lee: We are also good, though there are some things about which we must agree to disagree. Cool?

P.A. Berman: Maybe you're not my enemy. But I'm not entirely sure you're my friend, either. It seems to me that a friend would , if possible, brought up the matter privately, rather than on a public forum. But it's moot distinction. As I said (and said, and said), I would have been happy to continue to lukr for awhile, but there were statements made that I felt had to be addressed. So I addressed 'em. In the end, it's a great big playground, and like anyone else, it's important to decide for oneself who and who not to talk to.

Now, if you'll all excuse me, I have to go investigate some missing strawberries... (exits, stage left, rattling a pair of steel bearings in his fist)

Owl, other odds and ends
Harlan: I'm delighted that you were able to get in touch with him, and that my head's-up contributed; of course, had I known he was still at home, I would have been able to provide you with the number (though I'm sure you already have it). It had been my impression that he'd gotten the clan the hell out of there, and I can just imagine that matter-of-fact tone in Owl's voice as he reported the loss of another piece of roof. (He probably showed more upset than THAT, really, but Owl's a steady guy, and it's hard to imagine him throwing an emotional fit over losses already sustained.)

As I reported on the phone, our own hurricane experience throughout this past month has been a series of exercises in sitting around with our thumbs up our asses, waiting for the winds to climb above thirty miles per hour. (In no case did we even lose power.) Not that Judi, who had to lock herself in the bathroom for hours during the catastrophic Andrew, was in any mood to repeat the experience.

We were most concerned, really, about a paraplegic friend of ours, up in Hollywood, FL, who lost one house (and his wife's extensive book collection -- his survived) to Andrew; anybody with mobility problems will suffer special torments if the power and water go off and the streets are blocked. However, once again, he had nothing but hard rain.

Worst inconvenience we suffered: my in-laws, 90 minutes north of here, bought the standard mountain of food, to serve family at the break fast following Yom Kippur. You know, the standard Jew feast: bagels, whitefish, egg salad, lox, etc. A mountain of it. The hurricane shut down the temples on Yom Kippur, and stranded the in-laws with enough food to feed India. They invited us -- indeed, begged us -- to come north one day later, to consume some of it, but there were still random squalls, and scattered floods, between us and them, so we made the decision to limit ourselves to local driving, and decline. An awful lot of tuna is going unclaimed, two counties away. But that's the difference between living in America, and living in Haiti. Here, our complaint post-Hurricane is that food is going to waste. Frankly, I'd rather have that problem than theirs...or Owl's.

I will take the liberty of copying the two or three lines of your Owl update, to the SFWA boards, so folks know what's going on.

Other odds and ends, insultingly trivial in context but grafted onto this post because there's no other place for them:

1) clapping my hands with glee, now that I've acquired the Francis K. Nevins compilation of Cornell Woolrich stories -- talk about a guy with a dark imagination, Woolrich lived in hell and liked taking his readers there.

2) saw SKY CAPTAIN AND THE WORLD OF TOMORROW, which I anticipated with great excitement, and which landed with a thud. Y'know, now that film tech has proceeded to the point where movies can show us ANYTHING THE HUMAN MIND CAN IMAGINE, it's still the application of that imagination, in such films, which so often fails miserably. Nobody in my audience laughed, or cheered, or seemed to feel any connection with any of the derring-do on screen. I find it helpful to contrast this film with DOGVILLE, a masterpiece from earlier this year. DOGVILLE had compelling characters and a powerful storyline acted against a stark, featureless black backdrop. SKY CAPTAIN was emptiness filmed against a blue screen. It's a contrast which serves well to remind us what truly matters.

A-TC

A-T: Spoke to Owl. As we talked, I heard a crash. "Damn!" he said, "we just lost another chunk of the roof. I can see sky from any room in the house." They were in the dark, but someone "brought a lantern" so Owl could check that he had my phone number. Two inches of water covered the floors. He had managed to get "many" of his books and papers into plastic storage bags before the full impact of the storm hit, and saved his computer; but he's lost his encyclopedia and "many" books.

He has already contacted FEMA and his insurance company. We'll see what else he needs as the days go by.

DTS: If you're really going to send me comparison burnt ends, then half the LC order and make the other half Bryant's. Or maybe make that 3/4 LC and a 1/4 Bryant's because, as you know, we'all'ns have HAD LC's and I cannot believe Bryant's can excell.
I leave it up to you. Fedex standard overnight or 2nd day air are copacetic with me. Good on the Satch, payment to follow.

Yr. pal, Harlan

All You Floridians....

Nice to know A-T Castro is still out there. How about the rest of the Webderlanders who hail from Florida? Still there? Still in touch? Still have a roof? I hope Owl Goingback's losses are less than he first thought.

Here's hoping hurricane season ends prematurely.

Chuck

One Satchel Paige Bobble Head: check
HARLAN: After stopping by 18th & Vine (on the way back from an excursion to KC's Art Festival), the Satchel Paige bobble head is in hand. I'll be picking up the BBQ no later than Tuesday and getting it -- and the very cool bobble head -- ship it all to you posthaste (I was planning to send it all overnight -- 'cause I'm of the mind that "cracklins" should be enjoyed while still as fresh as possible -- but since you're gonna reimburse, if you'd prefer the 3-day delivery I can do it that way too). After talking to an older, black gentleman outside the Negro League Museum, I was reminded that the proper Kansas City term for crackles (or cracklins, as he said the L.A. folks call 'em), is burnt ends. Not only that, but he recommended "Bryants." Personally, I still dig LCs BBQ; and Marcia, who was born and raised here, also thinks LCs is much, better. But while I'm about the task of picking up some of LCs tasty burnt ends (and gettin' myself just a mess of ribs, cause I can't resist 'em), would you like me to pick up some burnt ends from "Bryants" as well? (That way, _you_ can take the taste test and decide which one you like best; and it wouldn't be a problem, 'cause Bryant's is, as they say in the south, just up the road from LCs).

After everything has been picked up, packed up, and sent on its way, I'll give you a call and let you know it's enroute.

Tell Susan, I said , Hi.
All best,

Dorman

This may be a bit off topic, but to anyone familiar with the great comics artist Mike Kaluta, he had a bit of a heart scare recently. To quote Michael directly, "they found a minor blockage in one of the arteries, cleared it, put in a stent to reinforce the artery wall, patched up the little incision made for the catheter, and sent me upstairs for a rest."

I'd always wondered what happened to the Ellison/Kaluta Shadow project until Harlan graciously answered that question at a DragonCon a few years past. Still, it'd be a splendid collaboration.

"It pains me to see the madness of the world ooze in here from time to time."

Doc and I know each other; that's why I was urging him to STAY. But I transgressed and took a condescending swipe. Sorry about that turnpike, Doc.

My follow-up to Rich's position may have been extraneous...unnecessary. Yet, its intent was bi-fold: to address a broader issue by sharing my own experience, and, I suppose, knock a little sense into Doc's otherwise sensible head (while realizing I was probably telling him what he already knew).

Harlan and Rick...If my participation did nothing more than contribute to the "ooze", I apologize to you guys. I don't always come across the way I THINK I'm coming across. If I ever see this type of dynamic snowball again, but have thoughts about the matter - or, to put it another way, if I really have to open my big stupid mouth (such is my impulse) - I'll strictly address the broader principle in a hopefully constructive way rather than directly upbraid (or take cheap shots at) the individual, whose emotions may be hindering him from seeing things differently.

The psychology in itself is an interesting thing to look at. When MY feelings are hurt, whether because of the way I'm wired to interpret and respond, or because of a clear affront, it takes me a long time to adjust my point-of-view. Communication between all of us is ALWAYS a high-wire act.

Therein lies the savage defense mechanism:

DOES the Internet play on our fantasy roles of dominance? Does it bring out of us what we can’t take with us in our physical daily lives (but would LOVE to if we could)? Well, that varies with everyone, but I do think we unconsciously draw on the baggage people inflict on us in our daily lives. This environment can be enticing to our jungle nature. It allows us to get an upper hand in ways we normally can’t elsewhere. And then it gets out of control. It IS a bit like the "schoolyard" mentality we left behind in our childhood. And that’s creepy. Being AWARE of this problem is the only way you can confront it. (Footnote: I was recently looking in on other sites for the first time; COMIC book sites. Cult-minded board members were insulting each other, blindly misinterpreting each other, threatening petitions against people they didn’t like, and so on. All this shit over COMICS, fer chrissake. And these are adults! Adults...fighting about comic books! Talk about feeling your I.Q. being dragged down! It was a perfect lab sample for Harlan’s argument about the Net)

Well, while my head gets lost in all that...Doc, I look forward to your return when ya feel up to it.

Wyatt, you should know, I am the crowned Prince of hyperbole, by now.

---------

CNN has been showing a electoral map, basically calling the election for Bush early. Liberal media my dick.

Quick, Unfortunate Update
Judi and I emerged from the latest spate of hurricanes untouched, but we figured that Harlan would want to know that Owl Goingback was very badly hit: he lost his roof, and water drenched his collection of books and the office where he works. The family is unhurt but has evacuated elsewhere.

Steve D.,

I know you'll appreciate the irony when I say, thanks for the warning! I feared THE FORGOTTEN was that kind of flick, but as with you, it was off my radar, and I probably would have gone just to see Julianne Moore do her thing.

If ever we meet, I'll buy you a root beer.

D.

Millenium Season Two: Yes, this show was serial killer of the week on Season One, a much improved religious conspiracy X-Files on Season Two, and a mishmoshmess on Season Three.....but one of the best hours (48 minutes) of television that I have enjoyed over and over again on my rapidly wearing tape (please, DVD, Season Two must come forth!!) is the Halloween Episode.

This is grand television. Creepiness, humor, great music and an all around joy to behold. It's teevee, and it's better than anything I've seen at the theaters this year (except, perhaps, HERO).

Frank Black meets Satan (?) on Halloween.....I need it , now.

-TODD

There are things on this board that give me pause. I wonder how someone can pontificate to others about according me respect while right the middle of an act of complete disprespect towards me. I wonder how someone else can get snide with Doc about attacking people over a disagreement right in the middle of slapping him around like a red-headed stepchild. Well, I guess in each case I can see how one could say something like that - I just can't understand how I'd get it out without choking on it.

But there is one real thing some of you guys do that really stirs my crawfish boil, that really overcooks my salmon, that really breaks up the caramelized shell of my Creme Brulée:

You DELIBERATELY break the rules of this place, even clearly state you are doing so with foreknowledge, and then say "But it's okay, because I'm leaving this place for good now" or "But it's fine, because I'm going to take a day or two off."

In the first case, if you were leaving for good, and you appreciated my providing this place for you (as most people say they did), why the hell would you leave a steaming shit on my couch on your way out? And in the second case, well, what the fuck, you think it makes it BETTER that you punished yourself? That's like telling some guy "I'm about to punch you in the face, REALLY HARD. And then I'm going to kick your dog. But it's okay because right after that I'm going to go check myself into jail for a week."

I just don't get this. Has this sort of trick ever been effective for anybody, anywhere? Have you actually found someone who had their rules broken and their area of responsibility abused and was LESS ANGRY because you did it ON PURPOSE and then gave yourself a slap on the wrist? I mean, has this EVER worked?

I dunno, maybe it has. But for my part, I find the sort of person operates under the mistaken notion they can salve the harm they do to others by inflicting harm on themselves to be far worse than the person who inflicts harm out of passion or ignorance. At least the latter can excuse themselves by saying they weren't themselves or they didn't know what they were doing. But you guys WERE yourselves, you DID know what you were doing, and you DID IT ANYWAY!

Why? Because you thought you knew better than I. You thought whatever dumb shit argument or misunderstanding or crusade you had going on was more important than the integrity of the social compact this board operates under. You think you should follow the rules only when it's convenient, and only then because to do otherwise would make you look bad in the eyes of Harlan and your peers.

You break the rules and say it's okay because of your passion or because you feel it is important. In fact, the rules exist BECAUSE of people's passion and sense of importance. They prevent that passion from leading to either ugly escalation that hurts people or page-long speeches that drown out all but a few strident voices. It is PRECISELY when you feel your passion or self-importance allows you to break the rules that you should WITHOUT QUESTION heed the rules.

You break the rules and say it's okay because you are imposing punishment on yourself. In fact, that punishment does NOTHING other than make you feel better. It does not change any harm you do, nor does it change the fact that you have treated both me and this place with the utmost disrespect and disregard. It is, to me, the height of arrogance.

Every time you break the rules out of passion, you make it that much more okay to fan flames instead of talk. Every time you fuck things up for me and get away with it by imposing your own punishement, you make it that much more easier for someone else to do the same, and that much more likely that they WILL do the same. You are not helping me do my job by doing this - you are making my job HARDER.

So - in any case I have failed to be mind-numbingly clear on this subject, let it be said one more time that this particular dog DOES NOT HUNT here anymore.

I love you guys, but bullshit is bullshit. So do me a favor, and do not try this particular weak line of bullshit on me again. Because we, ALL of us, know that it is bullshit. And we know, as do you, exactly what you are on about when you try to lay it on us.

Otherwise, what Harlan said.

Ennio Morricone Info for Harlan
Harlan,

I recall from some of your essays that you're a fan of Ennio Morricone's music, and just in case you missed this announcement (edited from the Sony press release):

"Yo-Yo Ma collaborates with the acclaimed Italian film composer Ennio Morricone on a new Sony Classical recording, 'Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone,' that features original cello and orchestra arrangements by Morricone of his most popular themes from such films as The Mission, Cinema Paradiso, Once Upon a Time in America, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The Untouchables and many more. Yo-Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone will be released on Tuesday, September 28, 2004.

"Selected tracks on this recording have inspired four short student films that were made as part of a special program at the University of Southern California film school, in conjunction with its music school, to showcase the importance of music in filmmaking. The student filmmakers participated in a competition to select the best treatments, with the winning selections receiving funding from Sony Classical. The program will culminate in a special concert event at the Los Angeles campus of the school on November 5 with a performance of the music, accompanied by the projection of the winning films, and a symposium - with the participation of Ma, Morricone's son Andrea (who is also a film composer), the USC Thornton Chamber Orchestra and the student filmmakers.

"Tickets for this USC Event go on sale starting Tuesday, October 5. Tickets are $15 general public / $10 USC faculty, staff, students and senior citizens. For tickets, call (213) 740-2167 or go to www.usc.edu/tickets."

Also, a few weeks back, you were inquiring about an import Astor Piazzolla tango CD. I know that one can get darn near anything today via the Internet and mail order, but I wanted to mention that my wife and I are going to be vacationing in Argentina the second half of October, and if there's anything in particular you'd like me to look for -- rare Argentinian CDs or books (editions of your work?) -- please let me know. I can't guarantee I can find 'em, but I can try to look around music stores/bookstores when we're in Buenos Aires.

-- Jon

INTERCESSION OF CIVILITY & SANITY

This is for

DOC
ROB
RICH
SCOTT
P.A.
MELISSA
LEE

I take pen in hand for what I earnestly pray will not be a fruitless attempt at interdiction of a suddenly-burgeoning lunacy among very nice, very intelligent people.

Folks, Doc is a friend of mine; and 99.9% of the time I've known him (apparently) he is not only stalwart, straightforward, and smart, he is responsible and sane.

But if I am to take the lunatic exchanges among you from the last few days here, I'd sadly have to say it's (pardon me this one) "that time of the month" for Doc. Because this nice man -- please accept the description based on first-hand knowledge -- has jumped looney and tuney at your replies.

And he's become rude, which is NOT LIKE HIM AT ALL.

I have no idea why you've gotten so exercised, Doc; nor do I know why this particular interchange has exploded so dolefully. But apart from me urging you in strongest terms to stop right now with the rancor, I am saying to Doc as a man I like and respect...

KNOCK IT OFF!!!!

Calm yourself. This is unseemly. You are too elegant a guy to have fulminated so. I may not be able to eradicate the smudge of annoyance some of you (particularly Melissa) have allowed to besmirch your response to Doc, but I ask that all of you go back with equanimity and just look at how misunderstood, misapplied, misinterpreted and misplaced have been your reactions. This isn't anything that should have made you all so crazy. It's the Curse of the Web that has demented you. Tone. 'Tude. Demeanor. This is schoolyard machismo, waiting for a chip to be knocked off a shoulder.

Calm. I beg you.

Civility. I urge you.

Please don't drive Doc away. He's a good joe. And Doc...for pity's sake, reread all of it and try to bank the fires. A simple "I'm sorry for losing my temper" cannot fail to balm the wounds of others who are, trust me, as decent a soul as yourself.

It pains me to see the madness of the world ooze in here from time to time.

Go sweetly, all of you. Stay softly.

Yr. pal, Harlan

Can you beleive it? Misquoted a quote(and probably just spelled misquoted wrong).It was " Better that vague fate than sports statistics ". Beleive it or not I get nervious just writing on my favorite guy Harlan's site.I should get out more
huh?

Overinformed and underworked...Paul

What I’ve learned from the unexpected results of my recent post to Doc is that mixing bad catfish metaphors with well meant criticism is like pouring gasoline into a hot lawn mower. Everything proceeds smoothly up to the sudden dull thump, then the neighbors stare in horror as you begin the lonely job of puzzling out the connection beween the empty gas can and your missing eyebrows.

Barney Dannelke "Better that than sports statistics"

I think you may have just created a new quotable quote.Really like it as it certainly summed up the point of your message and thats what a good quote should do.

But.....did you make it up.....maybe Einstein....maybe Twain.....?

Dooner's post reminded me of something -- anyone know when Millennium Season 2 will be on DVD? It's got at least two great episodes in it -- "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me", the Darin Morgan-scripted 'demons-in-a-coffee-shop' episode and "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense.' The latter is a very funny take on Scientology. Also, the episode has Charles Nelson Reilly in it. And was scripted by Darin Morgan.

If you get Millennium in syndication, watch for those two episodes. Now, whenever I see references to Hubbard, I think 'Onan Gupta' and the pain lessens.

Cheers, Jon

Doc, see? I knew you'd be back. Everyone who pitches a hissy about leaving here nearly always comes back, and people who say they're not going to read the board anymore are invariably still reading it. That's why I hate it when people put on the little performance that you put on-- inevitably, that person is back numerous times, and the threat of imminent departure is just that, a threat to make us all feel so terrible for having crossed you. It's passive-aggressive, untrue, and nettlesome.

Rich made a good point about the irony in your post. He did not mean to hurt you, or belittle you, or harm you in any way. You left yourself open for that shot, and he took it. It's nothing to get all bunged up about. It's nothing to leave in a huff about. Just acknowledge that he gotcha, savor the irony as a lesson about how American YOU are, then move on.

I am not your enemy, Doc. No one here is. I like you just fine. However, I do not like the phenomenon of posting a dramatic departure speech, then returning not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES (including two posts in one day, by golly) to continue the melee. That is the ONLY reason I threw my potato into this borscht pot. Have it out with Rich in the Forums if you need to (that's what Jono did and it worked itself out fine), but please stop being a drama queen. By all means, take a break from the boards if you need to, and come back when you feel better.

Yr. friend,
PAB

Doc:

On behalf of my husband, Scott, who'd merely tried to ameliorate what he perceived as an overreaction on your part to let you save face, your wish not to be spoken to is granted.

You should note, you've given my mate one of the best belly laughs he's had in a few days. He loves guys like you: so obdurate in holding to their myopic view of self that they'd sever one of their own limbs rather than admit to wrong.

You know, I do find it interesting to listen to you make such categorical statements about P.A., Scotty, Rich, Rob and others who you'd likely never met or spoken to prior to this interaction. To lash out at people in such fashion after they'd merely commented on your 'slip of the keyboard' seems so childish on its own; to continue it with slurs and insult just stuns me. Moreso, how they'd never engaged in abuse to you in response, in spite of your churlish retorts.

You talk of being friends with the others who come here:

"Why then should I deny myself the pleasure of reading or likewise interacting with such delightful folks as A.J. Berman or Cindy in Texas or Adam-Troy Castro or Charlie or Duane or Ezra lb. (LOVE that handle, man),..."

I can't wait for the moment when they have the overbearing arrogance of disagreeing with you, or not display the talent of reading your mind in order to accurately read the intent of your words. You do realize, however, that your little game of attacking those who have the temerity of having a dissenting opinion to yours does grow tiresome quite quickly.

And when you fire another temper tantrum out of your seemingly inexhaustive repetitive realizations that the universe once again has refused to run on your time, it'll give us the ability to give the scroll wheel a workout.

Thank you for that.

Melissa

Why Didn't Anyone Warn Me?

Giggles and guffaws were flying last night at the suburban multiplex, and for once, I agreed with the cat-calling teens who suffered with me as I squirmed through the entire screen time of "Forgotten" with Julianne Moore. But to tell the truth, I was really more seething, than squirming.

Usually, I can smell a stinker from a mile away, but this movie was entirely off my radar, so when some friends asked me to see it, my response was "I loved Julianne Moore in that "Vanya on 42nd St." movie. Off I went.

But why am I so pissed off at a bad movie? Because I smell the noisome carcass of L. Ron Hubbard at work here. If not him, some similar New Age crap that Hollywood producers think is "cool."

If this wasn't a Scientology movie, I will be surprised because its poorly hashed out string of science fiction cliches struck me as awfully Hubbardian:

There's a guy who stops drinking and attains a state of "clear" by fighting off his alien demons, there's a woman who has been mentally assailed by super alien demons, there's a psychiatrist who is inadvertantly helping the alien demons by making the woman think she is ill, and there are the age-old super aliens who have always walked among us and who terorize us with their fiendish abductions, conspiracies and experiments.

Sounds like I walked into a %#*%ing Scientology church service unawares!

Ye gods! Why didn't anyone warn me?

Say, Harlan, if you catch this post, I imagine you must have had an encounter or two with the man who Gore Vidal thought one of the most evil people he had ever met. I mean, of course, the yachtsman turned science fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard. Do you have any explanation for why the indulged millionaires of Hollywood should think the rest of us back in ordinary America should even care about this dreck?

Proud of every single one of his Thetans,

Steve Dooner

quotes
*** Michael *** That primary citation thing cuts both ways. Please understand, I have NO PROBLEM with attributing it to Harlan. It's just I've never seen the primary citation in Harlan's case either. I have seen the same quote [and Einstein-ish lookalikes] attributed to Frank Zappa, Robert Heinlein and John W. Campbell. I like the idea that Harlan said it. It certainly SOUNDS like something Harlan would say about 5 minutes after being told what the periodic table was and how it worked. But without a source that attribution may have to "settle" on Harlan the way various quotes settle on other wits and high verbals.

Twain scholars have written VOLUMES of similar carping about which quotes Twain invented, which ones he, ahem, appropriated from lesser lights who are barely remembered today - the Petroleum V. Nasby crowd - and which ones are cobbled up out of whole cloth. Last years example was the abbreviated "I am not just an American, I am THE American". This was used repeatedly in the Ken Burns documentary and on top of being a partial quote taken entirely out of context, turned out to be Twain quoting a friend from a letter to another friend in a different letter. The California papers have both letters.

So the Twain scholars kick Ken Burns around the block for this oversight or simplification and ignore that in a very real sense Burns got it right. That quote, both in its extended and truncated versions is PERFECTLY EMBLAMATIC of Twain's life. All of the triumphs and reversals of fortune, all of the incredible ideological leaps and blinkered stubbornesss that were the arc of his life are neatly summed up in that "quote".

There is a small part of me that wants to get these things right all the time. But a larger part of me wants to hear these tidbits and bon mots dropped into conversation with greater frequency and if they stumble on attribution, so be it. Better that vague fate than sports statistics.

*************************************************************

I just went looking for the exchange between James Whistler and Oscar Wilde. Whistler felt Wilde borrowed too frequently from other authors. Early on in Wilde's career that was a pretty fair charge. After hearing Whistler make some remark Wilde IS SAID TO HAVE SAID, "I wish I'd said that, James" and Whistler replied "Don't worry Oscar, you will".

I couldn't find this in the first two biographies of Wilde I looked in but I did find it cited in an article about copyright and plagiarism which is itself copyright protected. So, is it true? Is it real? And if I use it at parties do I attribute Wilde, Whistler, the journalist who initially "preserved" it or copyright.org where I found it first? What a can of worms.

***********************************************************

Todays quote;

"Everybody talks about the weather but nobody does anything about the weather".

Is -
A] from Petroleum V. Nasby on the Lyceum circuit, originally quoted in a Carson City newspaper.

B] from one of 4 different versions of Twain's essay On Weather which was serialized widely in American newspapers in the 1880's.

C] used by Willard Scott last year on television but not attributed.

D] credited as having it's ORIGINAL appearance in 37 of the 50 United States.

E] given as a gift to Twain by the research staff at Readers Digest.

F] An old Gypsey Curse.

G] I made all of them up and some of them have the ring of truth and the verve of veracity.

- "Barney Dannelke"

Muddywaters, PA.

I may be breaking the 24 hour rule, here, and if I get banned, I'll just cry and cry... BUT -

I've done me some thinkin'. Sat up, smoked a lotta cigarettes, gazed at the entrails, divided scripture and had lengthy discussions with each of the voices in my head, and I have come to the following conclusion: there are only three or four people who are determined to take this safari up my nose, really, and it occurs to me that I have less than an ounce of respect for any of them, together or separately. And why should I? What have they shown me?

Why then should I deny myself the pleasure of reading or likewise interacting with such delightful folks as A.J. Berman or Cindy in Texas or Adam-Troy Castro or Charlie or Duane or Ezra lb. (LOVE that handle, man), or any of the plentiful supply of other people here who have an inkling of what good manners and fair discourse are?

My great error, here, see, was thinking for a moment that what any of you other fellows had to say meant a damn thing to me. When you missed what I was getting at (repeatedly), I did what I could to set the discussion arights. Then I had to decide whether you were just not getting it or being deliberately obtuse - I gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that my own communication skills had failed me. How frustrating!

Silly me - it never occurred to me that you were playing The Game - the one where you wind someone up and watch them go, laying side bets amongst yourselves as to how far they'll make it before they'll implode, explode or evaporate.

Well, the game's over. Game's over and the gloves are off, you pustules, you walking tumors, you naughty things.

Why do I not know whether my Very Good Friend, Rod Amiri, is Iranian or Iraqi? 'Cause he'd told me and at the moment I asked about the media thing, I just flat fuckin' could not remember. There. *Of course*, I know there's animosity between the people and the governments of Iran and Iraq! Do you think I've been living in a lobster trap at the bottom of the bay for the last 40 goddamn years of my life? And do you think I would refer to someone as "my very good friend" if I thought he'd freeze me out for failing to remember the distinction?

I (having a generous nature, really) made the mistake of thinking *EVERYONE* here was a friend of mine, merely because we all seem to have a common interest. What a sap, huh? How gullible can a guy get, right? Now I am wise... In the future, I know who to ignore, and I hope you'll do the same for me.

I'm surprised and saddened to find you on this list, P.A. Berman. We generally get along pretty well. My reaction to Rich's initial response was not the H bomb you imply. The mounting "discussion" of how wrong and ignorant I am is another story, and I tried to deal with it in as courteous a manner as possible, but when people will not listen, one must occasionally raise one's voice.

My point - again - for the last fucking time - was ABOUT THE MEDIA! Not American perceptions, the freakin' media. How many times must I say this? Are you reading this on a ouija board? As far as my coming and going, I said 'way back yonder, that I'd continue to lurk, and I did. And I continued to post, against my better judgement, when there was no way to handle the matter off the board because some people are too cowardly to post their email addresses. I had the mad thought that enough explaining would settle the matter and we could all go to tea together. This was back before I realized it made absolutely no difference what I said, I was being made the butt, regardless.

So, to the Honorable Opposition, a big, juicy "Fuck you." I'll come and go as I please, and if any of you involved in this issue have anything to say to me, you can use grown up words and everything - but you'll do it with the respect you'd give our host, or anyone else, or not at all. If I leave forever, I might find that forever is about 20 minutes or so - my choice, and what do you care, you pompous blowhards? If I get banned for awhile for saying all this, well, somehow I'll learn to live with it. Believe it or not, there are forums where people have manners and treat others with dignity and courtesy - shucks, there are people like that right here! Thing is, from here on, I give as good as I get. If you don't like what what you're getting, take another look at what you're handing out.

And would you believe it? Lee had the decency and courage to write me privately to work this out? Well done, Lee!

It's good to be back - I missed most of you frightfully!

A few of you, though, should go pound it up your respective bungholes with a rubber mallet.

Cheers,
Doc

Dear Doc,

I wanted to say that as an ethnic Chinese woman living in Southeast Asia, I get mistaken for all the other East Asian races or nationalities every single time I travel abroad, from Japanese to Korean to Taiwanese to Nepalese, and people tend to forget what I am minutes after I tell them. It gets frustrating, that these people simply don't understand the first thing about the world from which you come from. In resignation my travel companions and I usually laugh among ourselves and say we can't tell Canadians from Americans either. But I always appreciate it when they do remember. Let's not get all worked up over such a little thing.

Naiki

Doc, whether you're reading this or not (you probably are, I bet, your protestations to the contrary notwithstanding): you have flagrantly overreacted to Rich's post. When you muse that Americans are being duped into inaccurate views of people in the Arab world, and someone points out that you should look not to the mote in our collective eye until you look to the beam in your own, the proper response is, "Touche!" Instead, you get defensive that Rich has missed your point, when your point is that Americans don't know much about what life is like in the Middle East. Clearly neither do you, or you'd understand why mistaking an Iranian for an Iraqi is a pretty flagrant error. It'd be like mistaking a Pakistani for an Indian, or Serb for a Croat. Just to give you some idea.

Yes, Doc, the American media doesn't give us the whole picture and is manipulating the public with inflammatory footage of isolated situations for dramatic impact. I'm surprised you're just realizing that now. I think it's pretty obvious to most people who employ critical faculties when viewing the news. I'm glad you've clued into this.

Also, I have to say that I really have come to despise this whole phenomenon of people getting all in a huff and declaring that they're so mortally offended by the people on this board that they are leaving! Gone! Never to return! And then post twice more, saying goodbye each time, probably only to be back in a week. Either leave or don't (no one is saying you should leave besides you), but this whole drama around leaving in a snit and slamming the door behind you is annoying as hell.

PAB

PS--I know plenty of Americans who cross-country ski. And gas is hardly cheap.

What I Write vs What You Read
I am here in an effort to make myself understood. I write "mauve" and some of you, from the evidence of your responses, read "plaid".

Reeston writes: "Doc: Ah, the small tirade against others for noting the defect in your thinking or logic, alongside the display of ire of having another point it out, especially in a public forum. I know it well.

"I and others have done it."

Well, bubie, you and others have done it AGAIN. As I have tried to explain, my point in the aforementioned post was NOT the cultural "myopia" of the American people. No - read it again. MY point (which few apparently got or wanted to discuss peacefully) was how most Americans are at the dubious mercy of the media when it comes to real life and people in other countries. Suddenly I am taken to task for not being able to recite the family tree of someone I regard as a good friend, even a very good friend. You try sitting patiently when people are telling you what you said wasn't what you said but something you didn't say at all.

"Look, no biggie to me one way or another, but to trod off in offense at someone's pithy and well-phrased response to your faulty observation seems only to further undermine yourself, not others. You've done the intellectual equivalent to leaving your fly open, and you complain because someone had the decency to save your further embarassment by pointing it out. Let it go with a kind word and apology, and then hang around to listen and learn. Like it or not, that's what you're doing most here."

First, I think you mean "tread"; or possibly "trot"; I should hope that anyone who uses the word "pithy" in a sentence would know the difference.

If he had been responding to my observation rathar than to what he *imagined* was my observation; if it had any relation to the point I WAS making, then maybe I'd let it pass - contrary to what seems to be the growing popular opinion, I can laugh at myself. I am less inclined to do so when any admonition is delivered with the verbal equivalent of a sneer. My observation was not at fault, I believe, but its interpretation by others.

I do find it interesting, though, that you, Reeston, have listed no email. I'd be perfectly happy to spare the rest of the folks here any further exposure to this fun festival, but you insist on making it only possible to address this in a public forum. Unfortunately for you, it only serves to reveal how little you understand the argument and its foundation. It seems the embarassment is yours.

"So, if you wish to blow the bridges, use thermite."

I have a few suggestions of things *you* can blow, too, you pompous, condescending twerp.

Rob writes: "Rich: 'you're the one that brought up the point about Americans not knowing much about the world around them. You brought up the point and then, for whatever reason, decided to mention that you weren't sure if your "very good friend" was Iraqi or Iranian...I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony in your post.'

"That is sound and balanced reasoning, the facts well seated."

Well, Rob it would be, IF IT ADDRESSED THE POINT OF MY POST.

"I had a friend from Iran. Her name was Lita. She would have thought me an imbecile if I had not understood where she was from. I am certain that she'd have resented my thinking she might be Iraqi (as sure as Georgians would resent you if you thought them Iranian; there's enough to go around for everyone). I'd have truly diminished myself."

I can only say that it's obviously a large-ish sort of *deal* for her. It's less important to my pal, Rod, who is less concerned with his past than the present and future in general. It is not one of the qualifications one must meet for his friendship. If I'd known him for ages, it might be different, and when I HAVE known him for ages, I'm sure I'll know more about him than I do at present. Meanwhile, it seems to be a bigger schtuss here than between him and me.

"Admittedly, it wasn’t too complicated because her leanings were quite Westernized to begin with; she'd grown up during the era of the Shaw."

Unless this was during the rule of the Bearded Irish Playwright, you might want to ask Lita how to spell "Shah".

How does it feel, Rob? I'd rather have had this discussion privately but, like Reeston, I don't know where else to write to you.

"The point is we really KNEW each other. We'd have seen through any threadbare sentiments from either quarter."

And there it is again. My Very Good Friend and I have known each other for about a year. It doesn't make him any less my friend, or me, his. We don't see or talk to each other every day, but we do spend time together. He's a busy man - a doctor - at Cedars-Sinai hospital.

So g'bye. If/When it looks like people are more interested in talking about what was actually said than making another person look/feel like a schmo, I'll be back. At the moment, I'm not even interested in looking in. See you in a few months.

Cheers,
Doc

I'll take a day's penalty to respond. Well, a few days it's more likely to be, what with the living that's being piled up here.

M. Ellison:

Two posts ago, I stated no attempt at plagarism on your part, believing it was coincidental and unintentional. Agreed, there's difference between the two, but to my perspective differences emphasize the similarity between them. as to the level of humor, that's tough to judge from words upon a page; the only place I'd seen the two. Further, my telepathy as to the intellectual intent of the speakers ain't what it used to be. In the case where similar quotes are available, I take the one that's the most encompassive of my thoughts on what subject is at play; failing that, the one that's been stated first.

Now that the dead horse has been sufficiently beaten, a bit of a query at your last sentence:

"Death to all pecksniffs!"

If there's a spare moment available, could you explain my comparison to the character in M. Dicken's "Martin Chuzzlewit", Seth Pecksniff? I understand the defintion as it pertains to its origin, but not quite sure how I fit comparison.

Scott

Einstein and hydrogen
The journalist in me just gotta ask:

Can anyone provide a primary source for the "hydrogen and stupidty" quote attributed to Einstein?

Sure, it's on countless "My Favorite Quotes" pages on the Web, often alongside the version correctly credited to HE. But none of these Web posters seems to have found it among old Albert's papers, interviews or articles. Mostly, I suspect, they've simply cut and pasted it from other Web sites.

Hypothesis: Harlan's quote came first and, badly remembered, morphed into the "not sure about the former" version, which was attributed to Einstein because it sure would have been cool if he HAD said it.

I've checked Snopes and other reliable urban myth sites, and haven't found any evidence that the Einstein quote is a fraud. But the conspicuous lack of a primary citation makes me wonder.

ZUZ

Simple Query
STARTQUERY

Begin query. Return results Y/N.

Search parameter: Shaun of the Dead. (Set parameter string.)

Fetch Results From: Webderland denizens.

Query: Funny? Y/N (Fetch results.)

Query: Worth seeing for free? Y/N (Fetch results.)

Query: The funniest film since Ferris Bueller's Day Off? Y/N (Fetch results.)

Query: Dawn of the Dead (parameter reset=original) meets Harry Potter? Y/N (Fetch results.)

Compile FetchResults (Print to File)

ENDQUERY

Velvet

P.S. - Kindly note, the above serves only to demonstrate just how much of that Introduction to Programming Logic course I took in 2001 actually stuck. Which is to say, not very bloody much. :(

The Objective Eye When The Hauteur Borders On The Farcical

Rich: "you're the one that brought up the point about Americans not knowing much about the world around them. You brought up the point and then, for whatever reason, decided to mention that you weren't sure if your "very good friend" was Iraqi or Iranian...I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony in your post."

That is sound and balanced reasoning, the facts well seated.

I had a friend from Iran. Her name was Lita. She would have thought me an imbecile if I had not understood where she was from. I am certain that she'd have resented my thinking she might be Iraqi (as sure as Georgians would resent you if you thought them Iranian; there's enough to go around for everyone). I'd have truly diminished myself. Admittedly, it wasn’t too complicated because her leanings were quite Westernized to begin with; she'd grown up during the era of the Shaw. The point is we really KNEW each other. We'd have seen through any threadbare sentiments from either quarter.

I asked her questions ALL the time about her cultural background, and she utterly dug my inquisitiveness. Mine was a rather child-like curiosity and it broadened our friendship; it enabled us to compare notes on all fronts; to disagree where we disagreed, yet really listen to each other. No one had to get sanctimonious. Y’know: the definitions of a real friendship. She grandly appreciated my interest in her ethnic roots; it told her that she needn't leave her personal identity behind in order to be an "American". I was learning and SHE was learning.

I LIKE talking to people I meet about their ethnic backgrounds and nationalities. I’ve had many enjoyable dialogues with people from Africa, Asia, Jamaica, Britain, France, and obviously Russia. And when I engage them, not surprisingly, their eyes light up. They feel welcomed; and eased, knowing that we don't have to be culturally alike to identify with each other. My two roommates are sisters, half hispanic and half Apache. I'm fascinated! (I NEVER met anyone with Apache ancestry) And they have a great time getting into it.

If you want to avoid being the "insular American" (especially if you're going to charge your neighbors as such)...this is pretty much the way to do it.

**Just to correct 2 ADD-type screw-ups in my last post: I obviously meant "hermitic" lifestyle; not "hermetic! And I keyed out "with" when I meant "worth".

I just went into Borderlands Press and there was a volume by another author called Rough Beasts and Other Mutations, but nothing by Harlan coming up as far as I could tell. Am I missing something? Roger

SCOTT REESTON:

Gee, folks, had I but known.

No question, Albert Einstein's erudite aphorism and my bit o' slapstick are reverberative. But -- without the tiniest shade of rancor -- I kinda think this is just a case of two Great Minds having a similarly obvious observation, decades apart.

I say this (and remember, I am one who is pathologically devoted to crediting quotes, and have a loooooooooong track record of being both sedulous and punctilious in this regard) because I feel no guilt passim this comparison. It is pointless -- though accurate and absolutely true -- to say I had no knowledge of Einstein's remark, on accounta because it is exactly as Steve Dooner has pointed out: 1) though the essence of both phrases is the same, the manner and intent of getting to the point are polar opposites; 2) one is high-falutin' and intended to edify, while the other is baggypants pratfall and intended to humiliate and make fun; 3) the wordplay in mine, by use of the misapplied noun "elements," is calculatedly wrong and VERY original; and 4) were I even absentmindedly a plagiarist (as I've often quoted previously, from da Vinci: "Where I steal an idea, I leave my knife") can you think of anyone better from whom to pilfer?

Oh, yeah, and one more thing, Reeston:

Death to all pecksniffs!

Yr. pal, Harlan

Banned Books Week
Today begins Banned Books Week, so it's time to pull out those dog-eared copies of "The Glass Teat" and "The Other Glass Teat" and enjoy--if that's the word--Harlan's essay about how Spiro and company nudged Ace into suppressing the first volume.

Hi Harlan, did you deal with/work with Michael Piller on NTZ, and what do you think about what's become of him, in particular the show Dead Zone?

To everyone who missed me, I was out of the country for a few weeks.:-)

Jan

Steve: Timing aside, it just seems the two comments are saying the same thing. I merely defer to the one who said it first.

Doc: Ah, the small tirade against others for noting the defect in your thinking or logic, alongside the display of ire of having another point it out, especially in a public forum. I know it well.

I and others have done it.

Look, no biggie to me one way or another, but to trod off in offense at someone's pithy and well-phrased response to your faulty observation seems only to further undermine yourself, not others. You've done the intellectual equivalent to leaving your fly open, and you complain because someone had the decency to save your further embarassment by pointing it out. Let it go with a kind word and apology, and then hang around to listen and learn. Like it or not, that's what you're doing most here.

We've all said things we wish we could edit. Being married, it's easy for the wife to come forward with a ton of examples of my more famous outbursts, all far more egregious than yours. (Odd, that somehow she doesn't recall any of hers...) Long and short, I'm still married. You do walk away from them, often as a better person if you see the slip of the thought and tongue for what it is.

So, if you wish to blow the bridges, use thermite. Much more effective than most conventional explosives. Personally, I'd leave them be, and come back across to debate again when you choose.

Scott

Hey, Doc, I may be shouting into the void here, but you're the one that brought up the point about Americans not knowing much about the world around them. You brought up the point and then, for whatever reason, decided to mention that you weren't sure if your "very good friend" was Iraqi or Iranian.

There is a history between those two peoples, you know. And not a very good one. I just couldn't resist pointing out the irony in your post.

Now I wouldn't go so far as to say it's akin to comparing Jews to Arabs, but I don't know if your very good friend would be happy with being compared to an Iraqi or an Iranian, depending on which country he truly is from. However, because he (or she) is your very good friend, like most good friends, they overlook our myopia and ignorant remarks, educate us, and continue to be our very good friends.

Just for the record, a couple of things: I do know where my very good friends are from and yes, I am very snotty. I am working on my smugness, though, and trying very hard to get my animosity off my sleeve. It doesn't go with the cufflinks.

Thanks Lee.

Saw the show about Frank Frazetta on IFC titled "Painting With Fire." Loved it.

Also of possible interest to Webderland members is an upcoming two part mini-series on PBS, Tues-Wed, September 28-29, 8-10PM ET/PT called "Origins: Fourteen Billion Years of Cosmic Evolution" and hosted by Neal deGrasse Tyson.

Oh, joy, o bliss, becase I'm watching the IFC documentary on Frank Frazetta right now. It's wonderful, people: interviews with the likes of Wrightson and Bakshi and Dave Stevens and Neal Adams and Bill Stout and other luminaries, and there are wonderful scenes of Frazetta hanging with childhood friends who went on to _Mad_ magazine: Angelo Torres, Nick Meglin, and photos of the late (and underappreciated) George Woodbridge. Lots of coverage of his early days in comics, his "funny animal" stuff, his days ghosting "Li'l Abner"... Try to see this, people.

My Dear Doc....
Doc: If you wish to clutch your scared breast and go a’ wailing into the wilderness, I for one will not stop you (It’ll give you a chance to get off your ass and give me a decent count of your Ellison Collection! I have only one entry from ‘overseas’ and I’m beginning to feel neglected!). The comment was nit-picking, and persnickety, but ultimately harmless. Don’t get you’re knickers all in a twist, you have bigger fish to fry…because half of our freaked-out American Breathen are convinced (yet once again) that this election …WILL BE THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT! Silly buggers, Democrat, Republican…Plus c’est la chance, et plus c’est la meme chose…

Did you know that ‘Rough Beasts’ is for sale? Yes it’s true, mon ami, just check out Borderlands Press. Harlan. I guess this is a case of use it or lose it! By the way, my copy of ‘Voice from the Edge’ arrived today, and I was wondering…is this the same version of 'Jeffty is Five’; as on the LP?

And my dear Quiet One, Please give me a breakdown for the list,

Luv,

Jono

P.S. and what’s a Mike 0527 a.k.a. ‘Blood’s a Rover’, David, please enlighten me. Is it a Mathew? Or what?

Early Retirement
Rob: I appreciate what you're getting at, but look at it again, please. If, everytime you walk into a place, some yo-yo tries to pick a fight with you (not even the same yo-yo), do you really want to keep going? I became a regular attendant here back in 1995, and there are a couple people from that time who continue to turn up from time to time, otherwise lurking. The rest? Are they no longer interested in things Ellison? No - they've moved on, some keeping in touch, but mostly satisfying their HE lech with his books. Why? This kind of sniping. It's what this particular arena was set up to rid ourselves of, if I understand rightly.

And I have contributed here. As Mr Wyatt will attest, if you don't care to look into the matter yourself, I did a stack of reviews of HE collections for this site, rather lengthy ones, that I took the time to check through with Harlan himself. Can I have a look at Rich's local resume? I've never tried to trade on my contributions, but I HAVE contributed - what do we have from Rich? Where does this pischer come off taking anything I (or anyone) have to say out of context and using it to prickle anyone else here?

And it's not just Rich - I'm looking at you, Lee. You knew very damn well what I was talking about, yet you decided it would be more entertaining to keep the thing going. And now you think you're making nice-nice? Keep your condescension and mock-sincerity. You're as full o' shit as a Christmas goose. You present yourself as playful, but in this particular scenario, you're the only one having any fun. Rich might be an annoying vontz, but at least he has the character to wear his animosity on the outside where all can see it. You, on the other hand, have a nice big smile and a lot of pins to slip into people's flesh when they aren't looking, all the while wondering with them, "Where are those sharp pains coming from?" You are a smug, self-satisfied devicive weasle, a maker of trouble for no productive end but for its own sake.

Enough - it has been a guiding philosophy for me over a number of years now that, when a thing stops being fun, I should stop doing it, if possible. This is no longer quite the treat it was, though I continue to be amazed at just how few people it takes to piss on the fire of enjoyment. In the timeless words of Popeye the Sailor, "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!"

Best Wishes (to most of you),
Doc

John W.

Thanks for quoting from the Yusuf Islam website, I find it mind boggling that he's considered a threat and colleagues have described him as a quite harmless activist.

The Satanic Verses affair did a lot of damage to the Muslim community in the UK, mostly due to certain yahoo's protesting and book burning whilst angry, ill-informed youths had read doctored quotes in the pamphlets of Ahmed Deedat. The Fatwa did not help. Suddenly, Muslims were being asked about their position on the Rushdie affair, as if jobs or livlihood depended (and sometimes did) on the answer given.

Then again, some of Rushdie's own supporters turned out to do quite well advocating their own liberal bigotory and doing no favour to the author.

A few years ago, I argued with Fay Weldon at a BECTU meeting concerning her book Sacred Cows and misquoting texts from the Quran to justify her position on Islam. She, allegedly, commented later that I was obviously a illiterate fundamentalist who should have been kicked out of the building!

(Note: Not only do I have a signed copy of The Satanic Verses on my bookshelf but for a while, I did have an option to adapt a Rushdie short story).

Michael - You'll find people know where Alburquerque is in the US due to it being one of Bugs Bunny's frequent stop overs when travelling!

FAQ

Doc

Go ahead and pick up your toy backhoe, throw your broad shoulders back in a soldierly display of unbroken spirit and march double-time into the tall shrubs surrounding these Elysian fields. It is your right to do so, and no one can hold you back. At least, not physically.

But have you considered deeply the matter of rich? He is man of complexity and enchantment. Tangled skeins of naughty impulse are dusted with amusement and lay scattered like tiny dust bunnies in the basement of his brain. A languid intelligence rises on occasion to the surface of his mind, like a hundred-pound catfish of many summers closing with sluggish confidence on a damaged water-bug. There is a silken nuance to his brownian shifts between sagacity and opacity, consideration and insouciance, seriousness and blather. He shoots straight, but means harm to no one.

I invite you in the spirit of fraternity to consider whether you have not rather been hung from the rafters of your own narrow expectations, demanding a considered and respectful response from an anarchic stew of well-meaning Ellison fans. Seriousness is only one of many well intentioned orientations that weave into the daily thread. Embrace the full spectrum. Have a ball.

DOC, DOC, DOC...

DOC: "Ethnicity doesn't seem to come up a lot between my friends and me...Does that diminish the friendship? Of course not"

You and I haven't socialized in a long time and I hope you are otherwise doing well.

Having said that, you might be blown away to know that many here wholeheartedly support your point, but who likewise would urge you not to shrink away whenever someone crosses the line of proper etiquette. I feel it's best to acknowledge reality before jumping into the haywagon with a group, understanding full well what to expect. Everytime you take the car out you KNOW you're lucky if there is ONE day in which you don't have to deal with an asshole on the road. You either get over a scrape, however pointless it was, and cruise out there again the next day or, sick of it all, adapt yourself to a hermetic lifestyle - minimizing contact with the crowds.

In short, don't vanish just because one person crosses the line in good taste. It happens to all of us here; it's reality and we deal with it. We come back because we know there is a contingent here with our time. Yer a bright, fun feller and it's nice when ya wanna stick around, fer chrissake.

Karma
Frank says: "You know, if Bush does win, I hope the people that voted for him suffer. I hope the economy collapses [..] the lions den will be fed with the bodies of our soldiers. I call it Karma."

After actively wishing that so much privation and harm be visited on so many people, you'd better hope that no such force as Karma actually operates in the universe.

John W:

Thanks for the info on Cat Stevens. It's both sad to know that he has probably been sucker-punched, and good to know he wasn't turned into an asshole by his faith.

I remember a similar distorted quote from Gov. Jesse Ventura, who stated that *some* people did turn their faith into a opiate, only to have the most sensational portions of his statement printed, making him sound like he was quoting Marx, and ignoring the fact that he went to church every Sunday.

Chuck

I am baaaaack!
Well guys and gals...your ever pessimistic or optimistic Republican is back. New living in a new location. Hey Harlan!
Your version of I ROBOT is way better than the Smith debacle.

Can we trust the media?
"""On the news when they announced that astronomers had observed two huge galactic clusters colliding in the constellation Hydra, 800 MILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY, one of the reporters actually asked the scientist commentator present, "Will this have any effect on the earth?" """

If the collision (which is now, of course, long over) generated gamma rays or (if any of the galaxies had massive black holes at their centers that also collided), gravity waves, there might be a small effect.

I doubt that the reporter was thinking in those terms, but you never know.

ON MONOCULTURALISM: It's not necessarily a US/other nations kinda thing, gang... more like an ongoing lesson in how little most folks pay attention. My favorite example of such happened about 15 years ago, when I was shepherding a group of young Albuquerquean actors around Chicago on a tour. Upon seeing in a local paper that then-pop-queen Paula Abdul was performing nearby, they prevailed on me to use my credit card to secure tickets. I called the number, gave the young lady on the other end of the line my digits, etc., and was then asked in which state the card was issued.

"New Mexico," I said proudly.

There was a long pause.

"I'm sorry, sir," she said. "We aren't allowed to accept cards from other countries."

"Oh, no, you must have misheard me," I replied. "I said NEW Mexico."

To my disbelief, she told me "Old or new, sir, I still can't accept the card."

Well, you can just imagine. It took me ten minutes to teach her enough geography to understand the borders of her own nation, and even then I had to have her look at the map in the phone book before she'd believe me. During said lesson, I asked if she had ever been to college, and she informed me that she did indeed have a college degree... in business, and THAT'S why she didn't know where New Mexico was.

Ignorance? It transcends geographic and cultural boundaries.

Yours from the lost badlands of Albuquerque,
Michael

My One Post this day
Alan Coil:

That was priceless! What a belly laugh. Thanks for making me laugh so hard I broke a lung and punctured my rib.

-Keith

Answers for Douglas Harrison

Why don't we cross-country ski? Because gas is cheap.

Who is Martha Stewart? A former beauty queen/model. Proving that it is better to have smarts as opposed to having good looks.

Why don't we grow our own dope? We do. We made him president.

Scott, Scott, Scott. . .

I'm sorry Scott, you missed the essential differences between the two quotes. Where Albert's is philosophically witty, Harlan's is drop dead funny. It's the timing, Scott! The timing!

Steve "Take My Wife, Please" Dooner

"...I was chatting the other day with a very good friend of mine who is Iraqi (or is it Iranian?)..."

Well, if you don't know if your very good friend is an Iraqi or an Iranian, then yes, I suppose some Americans do have a somewhat myopic view of the world.

====================================

Y'know, Rich, bubie, if I weren't absolutely SURE of the contrary, I'd almost swear you were spoiling for a fight - or something.

Why are you here, Rich? Why do you do this? Because you think it makes you sound terribly smart and cosmopolitan and sophisticated? It doesn't - you only come across as smug and snotty.

Yes, my very good friend. Ethnicity doesn't seem to come up a lot between my friends and me. Likewise, I don't know what state in which many of my friends were born. Does that diminish the friendship? Of course not - because that's not the foundation of the friendship. It only came up between my friend and ,e this time because we were discussing the First Blockhead and how appallingly he's handling the whole Middle Eastern adventure.

This is why I don't visit more often, gang. You try to pour oil on the waters of the Atheist/Christian debate, someone sets the oil on fire, missing the point I was trying to make (i.e., your religion/spirituality is of no importance to anyone but you, what matters is how you treat your fellow man.

You ask a perfectly good question, trying to participate in the conversation, and chumps like this seize on one element of minor relavance to imply detractions from my character and the quality of my friendships.

Well, fine - back into the woodwork I go. You have my email, feel free to write. If I have any questions, I'll certainly get in touch with you. And if there's anything I MUST know from Harlan, I'll ask him. Otherwise, this is probably the last you'll hear from me for awhile.

Cheers,
Doc

Returned earlier this week from a trip to beautiful Ocala, FL which featured Ivan watches, sick in-laws, downed trees, bugs having sex all over me (and Deb), electric cars, motorized wheelchairs and as a grand finale, the handling of a 300 pound dead body.

It's a long story.....and it gives you pause to think on this Evening Of The Jew.

Wishing those of you out there who have the faith an introspective and peaceful Yom Kippur. Get in that book! And no sneaking breath mints!

-TODD

I've always been confused at the amount of praise HE receives for his quote about hydrogen and stupidity. I would hold the comment in higher regard myself, except for this:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein

Now, not accusing the patron author of plagarism, but essentially Ellison unintentionally copped another and better put summation of some of the behaviour of the thing called human.

Sorry, not one for praising an echo.

Scott

You know, if Bush does win, I hope the people that voted for him suffer. I hope the economy collapses, and that Wall Street morons will have to stand in long lines, getting government cheese--and I hope they choke on it.

This country deserves what it gets. Maybe raising the whip will wake people up. The lions den will be fed with the bodies of our soldiers. I call it Karma.

Slowly but surely we sink into the "peace and safety" of Lovecraft's coming dark age.

On the news when they announced that astronomers had observed two huge galactic clusters colliding in the constellation Hydra, 800 MILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY, one of the reporters actually asked the scientist commentator present, "Will this have any effect on the earth?"

Received this email from Haffner Press. Thought some of you completists may be interested as note last line of first full paragraph.

NEW RELEASE!

Seventy-Five: The Diamond Anniversary of a Science Fiction Pioneer—Jack Williamson

Edited by Stephen Haffner & Richard A. Hauptmann

A literary and visual feast, this 8.5" x 11" 603 page hardcover celebrates the first seventy-five years of Jack Williamson’s career in Science Fiction. From “The Metal Man” in 1928 to his recent Hugo and Nebula Award-winning novella “The Ultimate Earth,” inside are some of the best of Williamson’s stories, including excerpts of such classic novels as The Legion of Space, Golden Blood and The Legion of Time. Also included are several never-before-published gems such as a vintage 1930s tale “The Crystal Castle,” a collaboration with long-time friend Edmond Hamilton, and a story originally commissioned for Last Dangerous Visions, “Previews of Hell.”

Sidebars with essays, correspondence, and articles are decorated with over 300 book and magazine covers and interior illustrations. A full-color 32-page section features an illustrated timeline of the author’s career, and reprints a complete story arc from Jack Williamson and Lee Elias’ 1950s Sunday comic strip, Beyond Mars. Seventy-Five: The Diamond Anniversary of a Science Fiction Pioneer also features a foreword by award-winning author Connie Willis and an introduction by a fellow pioneer, Sir Arthur C. Clarke.

The 1000-copy trade edition sells for $50 each plus $5.00 shipping, add $1.00 for each additional book.

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Orders may be paid via check or money order payable and sent to:

HAFFNER PRESS
5005 Crooks Road
Suite 35
Royal Oak, MI 48073-1239

We can handle credit card orders through https://www.paypal.com Use the "send money" tab and enter the address info@haffnerpress.com -- you do not have to be signed up with Paypal to pay via credit card.

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Cat Stevens
Re: Neal Johnson

Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens in his own words: (via his website)

"So…back in Febr