Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Archive - 07/24/03 to 10/13/03

Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Of course I will say, in my own defense, that rather than participating in repetitive "ultramaroon gnashing," it was my reflection on Stephen King's words about how much he prioritizes "the truth inside the lie" that he sees as fiction, which shed new light for me on what he said about Kubrick. I know that many other movies were made of King's movies, some of them FAR, FAR worse than Kubrick's The Shining, that he never bothered to get so worked up over. It puzzled me, and I wondered about it, and still do. One would think he'd get mightily peeved about, say, Maximum Overdrive, or Pet Sematary, the movie. Ah well, I'm sure I won't get an answer, and I'm OK with that.

Ultramaroon signing of,
PAB

A delayed and only mildly toxic reaction.

"...after three fucking years of the same redundant opinions surfacing every time some arriviste drops by? Do tell me I've sufficed."

*Snort* Ah, truly you are becoming a citizen of the net. And yet I know this stage is FAR FAR from new to you. I just paid Mike Resnick a [cough cough] chunk of change for one of your 1955 SF Bulletins [because we are really down to the short strokes for Ellison ephemera out here in the wilds of Pennsyltucky] and as I immerse myself in the phenomena of fanzine culture from its letterhacks and incestuous reviews to it's feuds and sniping I see how absolutely nothing has changed except the speed with which one goes from star-struck newbie to burnt out GAFIA bound cynic. All the same steps and side steps only done in triple time. I luvs technology. - B.

BOOK FILM / FILM BOOK / AN INFORMED THEORY

Frank Capra made LOST HORIZON. It was a thousand times better than James Hilton's novel, on which the film was based. It was not JAMES HILTON'S "LOST HORIZON," it was FRANK CAPRA'S INTERPRETATION OF "LOST HORIZON."

Two different entities, in two different -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Orson Welles made THE TRIAL. It was shockingly different than Franz Kafka's novel, on which the film was based. It was not FRANZ KAFKA'S "THE TRIAL," it was ORSON WELLES'S INTERPRETATION OF "THE TRIAL."

Two different entities, in two different -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Stanly Kubrick made THE SHINING. While subjectively sucessful or unsuccessful on its face, it was markedly altered from Stephen King's novel, on which the film was based. It was not STEPHEN KING'S "THE SHINING," it was STANLEY KUBRICK'S INTERPRETATION OF "THE SHINING."

Two different entities, in two diferent -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Could it be more Film Lit 101 presented, for this seemingly endless ultramaroon gnashing to cease, after three fucking years of the same redundant opinions surfacing every time some arriviste drops by? Do tell me I've sufficed.

Bellicose? I say nay. Try welschmertzed-out.

Cheerily, Harlan

SHINING ON
I think the problem with both versions of THE SHINING was that the novel just didn't translate to film or television very well. There were too few characters, with a lot of the conflict being interior and not much action till the end.

The Kubrick version is draggy and as a whole I don't think it was a success, but the little things that work really work. The miniseries I don't remember very well, though they did correct some of the flaws King had mentioned in Kubrick's film--I agree with him that Nicholson was a poor casting decision for a character who is supposed to seem ordinary until the Overlook brings out his interior demons. With Nicholson you're expecting him to do something bad/crazy before he even gets to the hotel.

From what I've read about it, it sounds like Kubrick wanted to go in a different direction--King says Kubrick wanted a downer ending. I've always liked King's quote about Kubrick..."I think he wants to make a film that will hurt people."

Thanks for all the reading suggestions...

My wife is waiting to hear about the university job. It's down to her and one other person. Hopefully we'll find out sometime next week.

I've seen the size of Harlan's bookshelves, and there's nothing worth remarking upon -- they're the same size as any other bookshelves.

Unless you mean the number of them, of course.

PAB: Can't take credit for the link that "infomite" apprised you of; but I can direct you to the link below:

www.ireadpages.com/toc1.html

A terrific magazine about writers and writing (it featured a story on Harlan in March of 2002), the Nov/Dec issue features a darn good, in-depth piece about Stephen King and his Dark Tower series. You can't get to that piece online, but the magazine can be found at Walden Books, Borders and even Barnes
& Noble (now that "Book" went belly-up and their under-the-table monopoly bargain died with it).

Yours in information, the man.

Bellicose. My mistake, Harlan. Bellicose.

Who was the maroon who said Harlan's ALWAYS grumpy?

Brian, Crouch is a very good writer, but his jazz criticism is a bit too elitist for my tastes. And, his unfair disdain of rap is pretty stupid. Rock critic, Dave Marsh rightly calls Crouch a "cultural vigilante."

His Miles Davis essay made me so mad I almost tore his book up. Sure, late Miles is pretty muzak like, but Crouch even goes after Bitches Brew, one of the great fusions of rock and jazz ever. Him, and his butt boy, Wynton Marsalis only see jazz in a small spectrum. They like the dusty, museum like respect for jazz that has turned off younger fans from getting into the music. When you don't let a music evolve, you stifle it. I mean, is pop jazz mostly crap? Sure. But, when you also go after Ornette Coleman, you loose me.

Crouch really pissed me off when he went after Prince; my pick for the single greatest song writer in the last thirty years. Crouch seems to only notice the frills of Princes dress and lifestyle, and not the intricate beauty of the music.

Brian, you are better off reading Robert Christgau, or Dave Marsh, or hell, me. Lol.

-------------

Harlan, I'd hate to see the size of your book shelves. Wooop.

Who me? Nope. Lip buttoned securely and not lurching at all, at all.

Steve D: I'm a fan of Ursula K. LeGuin, but I never could get interested in Doris Lessing ever since I read The Golden Notebook, which I REALLY disliked. Slogged through. OK, I had to write a paper on it, and it was sloooow going. Maybe you can tell me, is that representative of her work? Can you recommend something better? (or if you think that one was good, then something DIFFERENT?)

Mr Dooner mentions Borges and LeGuin?
Steve,

Funny you should bring up these two. I just read "Tlon Uqbar" by Borges within the last two weeks. Also finished off "Orsinian Tales" by LeGuin. And Barney's literary nod to Bradbury brings it to 3 for me, with "S is for Space".

"Tlon Uqbar" is one of the very first Borges stories I read, and I found it fascinating. I start to understand the respect with which he is held on this board. The incredible detail with which he imbues the not only the fantastical realm of Tlon Uqbar but of the masquerade and it's societal impacts is overwhelming.

To paraphrase Barney's recent post, Bradbury we love for his prose and style. I just finished the "S is for Space" collection this week. I can swig down Bradbury all day long and still enjoy it and feel refreshed.

Borges, in comparison, I have to take in small doses; it is a literary espresso ristretto to Bradbury's daily cup-o-joe, for me. Concentrated. I have to pay much more attention, flipping back and forth in the pages to review the internal references, double and triple checking my interpretation of the latest passage.

LeGuin's "Orsinian Tales" lies somewhere between. I found the material more complex and the narrative more evocative than Bradbury but still more accessible than Borges. Le Guin fleshes out Orsinia in a collection of tales, whereas Borges puts forth Tlon Uqbar in a collection of pages. The tales themselves were of a different character than what I might expect based on her fantasy genre works.

What are your thoughts Steve?

Honda Accord

I can’t help sticking in a ballet oriented slant regarding writers that write to be popular. In ballet, George Balanchine was one of the greatest choeographers ever, and he commented at one point on what criteria he judged himself against. I think his (paraphrased) comment is interesting because it contrasts so strongly with the magnificently deep, varied, innovative and powerful work that he turned out during his long career.

‘We (dancers) are here for one ultimate reason: entertainment. E-N-T-E-R-T-A-I-N-M-E-N-T. What we do has to be good tonight. People have to like it TONIGHT. We are not in the business of making pictures that you can hang on a wall and wait 100 years for people to figure out how to like it. What we do exists only as we do it, and then it’s gone forever.’

The written word has an advantage over ballet, as it hangs around in physical form long after it’s created. It does have a chance of being rediscovered and cherished after it’s author has passed on, but who can argue with the professional writers that form their work to be marketeable as it is written? I was unhappy when Arthur C. Clarke started moving the form of his novels more toward the best-seller format, but I’m certainly not going to hold it against him; it’s how he makes his living.

Regarding criticism, it is probably impossible to develop a personal aesthetic if you don't establish some parameters of good and bad. This all ties in with guilty pleasures, believe it or not.

I was delighted to see Del Rey is republishing Robert E. Howard's original Conan stories. Even now, many decades after his death, his tales of the mighty-thewed barbarian are more ingenious and alive than almost all the heroic fantasy clogging the shelves these days.

HE: yes, it's true, I was just jerking your chain, good to see your knife's still sharp. Had to gig the moment, it's a flaw, I live with it...

Roman Castavet

Another name to add to the litany of Artists Commenting on Artists: Stanley Crouch, essayist, commentator, and formidable jazz drummer, is also an exceptional critic of jazz. Crouch tends to get lumped into the conservative heap, but he's far more a _writer_ than an ideologue, and even if you don't agree with his assessments of late-period Miles Davis, his writing is far more rewarding than confounding.

One more Asimov collection? Great. Now, if we could get Westlake to assemble his Dortmunder short-stories into a collection...

Okay, add another book to my list of books to be purchased this Xmas: "Thnking Machine".

But, guys, guys, guys, all this talk about King, Grisham, popular lit, et al. has distracted you from the one true literary event of the last two weeks: the publication of Isaac Asimov's final "Black Widowers" anthologies with a couple of unpublished tales and an introduction by our host, Monsieur Ellison himself, courtesy of Carroll and Graf. I got mine yesterday. Where's yours?

Alejandro

Infoman: Thanks for the link.

Harlan: Great essay. Thanks for The Secret.

Cindy: I got that snappy aphorism from a Bazooka Joe comic.

Frank: Hooray for you and YOUR snappy aphorism! And your last post; you never cease to cheer me.

Bill: It's Edgar ALLAN Poe. I forced my seventh graders to write it over and over until they got it right.

rich: Yes, The Shining miniseries was mediocre. Many of King's books do not translate well to the screen. Is it the shittiness of most screenplay writers, or is it something about the way King writes that is untranslatable? Anyway, the movies he makes in my mind are always going to be better than what I see on the screen, though I can't help but picture Scott Glenn as Roland.

Dan: Great! I'm only in the middle of The Wasteland, and with tons of grading to do, I don't know WHEN I'm going to get to The Wolves of the Calla, but you've piqued the hell out of my curiosity. Argh!

Buckling down for this alleged blizzard blowing our way, I remain,

PAB

Frabjous day calloo callay!!!!!!!!!!

Late Friday nite Fedex!!!!!

THE MODERN LIBRARY EDITION OF MY JACQUES FUTRELLE "THINKING MACHINE" STORIES IT TOOK ME A YEAR TO EDIT ... IT'S IN, IT'S HERE, I HAVE IT IN MY PAWS!!!!!! ADVANCE COPY, SOON ON YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD BOOKSTALLS!!!!!!

IT IS BEE-EE-AAAA-YEWWWW-TEE-FULL!!!!!!!!

Hoop dee doo dee, moses supposes his toeses are roses, but moses he knowses his toeses to be, so moses he knowses his toeses aren't roses, as moses supposes his toeses to be. A mose is a mose, a rose is a rose, hoop dee doo dee lal la la la la la etlatera............

Dear Ms. Mincer:

I am not "bashing" Grisham, I am criticizing the WORK of Grisham. I confess I find your naive comment more than passing disingenuous. It isn't as if one writer commenting on the craft or another is a new concept. Mark Twain on Bret Harte. Mark Twain on James Fenimore Cooper. Truman Capote on Gore Vidal. Gore Vidal on Truman Capote. Edmund Wilson on Nabokov. Sinclair Lewis on Dreiser. Hemingway on Gertrude Stein. And on and on, all the way back to Aeschylus and all the way forward to Tom Wolfe against John Updike. John Gardner savaged everyone (including me), from Vonnegut to Philip Roth. Writers review other writers. That's called The New York Times Book Review.
Who better to do it? You? I think not. Readers in general, have neither the depth or breadth of auctorial experience to talk with sense and evenhandedness (one hopes) about THE CRAFT. Readers are there to be entertained, and if they are, they love the books and the writers, even if the work itself is atrocious.
(Which brings us to the idiot argument of Elitism vs. Plebeianism. I always come down on both sides.)

Your seemingly wide-eyed astonishment that a writer would have a cogent -- however condign or harsh -- literary position on other writers suggests a level of out-of-the-loopness that I cannot bring myself to credit. You are posturing. Whyfor, I do not know. But it doesn't wash. And if you've never encountered musicians criticizing other musicians, I would have to believe that you never encountered an issue of Downbeat, Metronome, Rolling Stone, Crawdaddy, FM Review, or any of the other hundred or so magazines devoted to opinion and criticism of musicians, composers, arrangers, sidemen, promoters, et al. You've never read Heifetz on young violinists? Never read Mingus on white jazzmen, and on Norman Mailer's "The White Negro"? Never read Hentoff on Miles, or anything by Whitney Balliett? The libraries are JAMMED CHOCKABLOCK with volumes of critical essays BY musicians ABOUT musicians. You should read Aaron Copland sometime, if you want a demonstration of tonge-lashing, not mere "bashing."

And where have you been for the past three years? Did you miss Tom Wolfe referring to Irving, Mailer and Updike as "The 3 Stooges" as recently as 21 January 2000? Kee-rist, lady, were you raised in a creche?

Please put my mind at ease, and pop back in to say it was all tongue in cheek. Otherwise, I'll be forced to believe that you have moved into the western World only recently, having therebefore dwelt in an ice-rimed cave in the highest, remotest reaches of Bhutan.

And, Dorie, do not lurch forward to chastise me for my churlish response to this "innocent" posting. Sometimes a cigar is NOT just a cigar. I am in a S*W*E*L*L mood, and I'm being polite here. It's just that my bullshit level is clearly lower than yours.

Bewildered by sophomoric comments in this much-vaunted Internet Age of Widespread Information Availability, I remain,

Yr. pal, Harlan Ellison

AT THE MOUSE CIRCUS

Dear Aron:

This is one of my more abstract fantasies, but I'll give you this much: Others try to create for us, what they want our image to be. There is a Native American adage that goes something like "It is not what you choose to call me, it is the name I know myself to be." When I wrote this story (and you can look up the copyright date in the indicia of the book) such forcing of a superimposed persona was even more prevalent than today. Particularly for black men and men "of color" of all hues. And one would find, when one acted more to one's own image of oneself, and not to the template, that someone was always waiting to pillory you with "why are you behaving so badly?"
Meaning, of course, "why aren't you behaving the way I have the dream-image of you programmed?"

This is a story told in (pardon my grandiosity) subjective terminology and imagery, Joycean if you wish, but far less Finneganesque than the embarrassingly high-flown verbiage above suggests. It is about a black man of some personal promise, traveling in a white man's world, trying to scope out the parameters of his existence and destiny, while riding a road built by The Man, for The Man's convenience. It is, I suppose, to cap it up, a stranger-in-a-strange-land fable.

I have absolutely no idea if that helps either of you with acquiring the brew, but without going back and rereading that yarn -- written a serious chunk of time ago -- it is the best I can do from memory as to what pushed me to write it. Both Damon Knight and Robert Silverberg contended it's the best story I ever wrote. Me, I'm just happy it's still being read. It was, I'm told, years ahead of its time.

Yr. pal, Harlan

Dept. of things I'd like an answer to but am not losing sleep over:

In Harlan's introduction to the Tom Reamy collection SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES he talks about the tendency of writers, many writers but not ALL writers, to have a trick or two that they do, and do so well that, well, all is forgiven. Tom Reamy had some really good ones.

[This is a brutal and perhaps even slightly skewed version of one talking point in a LONG introduction that I have not read in at least 15 years and does not do justice to either Harlan's intro. or the late great Reamy's prose style. Humor me.]

I've been thinking about that introduction and it dovetailed in my mind with the current thread with regard to King and various popular writers. Now we all have our favorites and our guilty pleasures. If you want to look at writers on this side of the ghetto wall I would offer these three as examples;

Bradbury, who doesn't do much by way of intricate plotting but that's ok because we can just dive into that lovely and unique prose style.

Vonnegut, who has a style that's so simple and journalistic that you have to marvel at the sophisticated humanistic agenda behind it and how he puts it forth.

King, who gave us THE GREEN MILE, DIFFERENT SEASONS and THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON so we forgive him TOMMYKNOCKERS and THE REGULATORS. Or pick your own.

And if these examples don't work for you there are 50 more. Cain, Rohmer, Ballard, Howard, Lovecraft, Stout. Writers who are not "balanced" but who have things that are they do so well when they are on their game that they more than justify their existence, they almost become their own genre/cottage industries.

Here, at last is my question. Has anybody here ever read anything by Barbara Michaels? Because I just do not get it. She, unless it's a psuedonym and I hope it isn't, has something like 30 books out there and I have no idea why this person is in print. None. Is there an INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE or HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER lurking in this body of work? I mean you can slam Clancy and Rice for any number of excesses and eccentricities but they have each knocked it out of the park at least once.

I picked up something by Michaels because Harry Houdini was one of the main characters with the intention of giving it to Tim Richmond because Tim loves Houdini and the first three pages were so bad I thought it was a mistake. Skipped around. More of the same. I mean this was some serious bad writing. Yes Virginia, worse than this post. Now when I see one of her books I check out a page or two just to see if that was a fluke. Not so far and I've scanned about ten. NY Times best seller. 30+ books. Millions sold. What did this person do right to justify this kind of career? Is there a casting couch for bad writers? Could I sleep with someone and get this gig? 'Cause if that's the case I'm sleepy now.

And of course it takes Harlan to show us that Chaos Theory is really a postmod, amped-up version of Dewey's Instrumentalism. In 500 words no less!

As always Harlan, Wicked Stellah writin!

With Respect from Bahston,
Mark

I just read and enjoyed Harlan's essay at the Butterfly Effect site. Kudos to Harlan and Frank. I'd also recommend the story by Ed Bryant while you're over there.

Chuck

Cortazar? Borges? Mahfouz? Oe?

Hey has anybody here read Julio Cortazar's Blow Up and Other Stories? How about "The Aleph" or "Tlon Uqbar" by Borges? What about "Zaabalawi" by Naguib Mahfouz? Or "Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness" by Kenzaburo Oe?

Does anybody read Doris Lessing or Ursula K. Le Guin?

I ask this only because my eyes will bleed if I have to read any more on Grisham and King (and I love King).

Steve Dooner

Steve Dooner

Wolves of the Calla
I know several of us are reading or have finished Dark Tower 5: Wolves of the Calla. For those who haven’t, I just wanted to mention that King does something truly surprising at the end that will probably come as a big shock. Don’t worry, I haven’t spoiled anything because you will NOT see it coming. But had I not read any of the Dark Tower books and happened to find out what King does at the end of Wolves, I would’ve run out and read all the volumes posthaste! Truly an important moment in the Dark Tower mythology (if not most of King’s milieu since so many of his stories tangentially relate to the mythos).
Dan

I almost shit my pants. My little bit of spew on Chaos Theory, is the last sentence in Harlan's piece. You worked that one in quite well Harlan. And your point about the subject was dead on: no chance, no buggaboo's in the night; you either walk forward and explore, or you get stuck in the swamp.

You all know I had to tell my family and friends about Harlan cribbing from me. They are so proud. They might even talk to me, the next time they see me.

I needed the self esteem boost all. Now back to the shadows in the closet.

------------------

I told you all before that most art is subjective; most notably in music. You can always find two very smart individuals who will debate about the merits of various musicians or music forms. All this is murdering a dust mote--kind of meaningless.

Sure, classical takes the most dedication and practice on your instrument to play, but actually writing like Stravinsky is the hard part.

Sure, pop seems simplistic, but when was the last time a song writer wrote a ditty as great as the Stones Satisfaction?

Hell, in its own way, a band like Radiohead, at their best, are as deep as the best symphony or jazz. Sure, it is easier to play, but it is not just about that. It is the vast mystery of the heart, that sings out.

I won't expound on rap, but it is odd, some young black dude, who seems illiterate, can memorize all these lines, and spit them back in perfect cadance. You should see lyric books to most rap albums. Shit's like War And Peace in length. There is creative fire there; you can say it is misused, but it is used.

You cannot compare Jimmy Page with Mozart, or Eddie Van Halen with Gershwin, but they all had the same dedication to their craft. Their music came from a private, holy place.

Esthetic truisms still apply: Sure, Kenny G. is shit compared to Duke Ellington, but what about Frank Zappa compared to Morricone? There, it just works with taste. No way you can prove either one is better, or worse. I would prefer Morricone, but that's me.

---------

I liked Runaway Jury, the movie, but look at the plot, Harlan's rant about Grisham is obvious in that film: Yea, there is a secret cabal that controls how Jury's are selected; and they watch the trial on plasma televisions in a bunker. Nutty, black helicopter crap. Thankfully, the film was at least fun. But, who would want to slog through the book?

Actually, I think THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE could be a decent remake if it were done right [which rarely happens.] I could see it updated to current times, with Al-Quaida instead of the communists. But....I'm sure they'll just turn it into a mundane action film.

Captain of Fate

HARLAN,

Extremely cool essay.

The Hollywood Renaissance
Put away your reading because the geniuses of Hollywood are at work on a new watershed movie, truly long overdue...

a remake of MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.

Yeah. We need that. We need it real bad.

Cookie: good observations, but a more telling rendition is: How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb? A: 25. One to do it and 24 others to stand around and say "I could do that". Gotta go, sounds like Rush is on the dope again.

Dark Tower Tick-Tock Man...
I noticed, when I reread the DARK TOWER books over the summer, that the Tick-Tock Man lives in a city where a crazed cumputer has taken over. Considering how many other literary references (Shardik, Edgar Allen Poe when Jake goes into the house, etc) there are throughout the DARK TOWER books, I'm convinced this is a nod to Mr. Ellison.

Bill

I am going to read Anthony Boucher, John Dickson Carr and Ellin now.

Hmmmm,
I stand by my assessment of A Time To Kill--while acknowledging that you are correct in your assessment of the remainder of his body of work. If only he'd stretch to use the amazing length of stride he exhibited in A Time To Kill. Sadly, I'd say he's learned ( to the detrement of his art and our misfortune) that he has the ability to spin straw into gold without the effort or emotion it would take to build another book like A Time To Kill. I guess you'd say I'm a fan of A Time To Kill.

Can y'all tell?
:)
Cindy
>

Hey Paula!
A broken clock is right twice a day? I LOVE THAT!!! It's so much classier than what we say down here, " even a blind hog'll find an acorn."
You are infinitely more qualified to judge than I, but do you not think A Time To Kill was a beautiful thing? Lofty even?

yer pal,
:)
Cindy


Hey Rita?
That looked like a slammin' to you?
You need to hang around here awhile.You don't KNOW what a slamming is until you've seen the man work one. He'll put something on you that BABO won't take off. When he's ACTUALLY slammin' somebody you'll find out what it's like to try to read a computer monitor through your fingers. That Grisham stuff was quite sweet.

;)
Cindy

Chaotic Ellison
Go now,

http://www.butterflyeffectmovie.com/

Read, enjoy.

Then click on the "Complete Chaos" link, where they say: "The irascible Harlan Ellison declares, “There is no such thing as chance, only patterns we do not understand.” Do you agree? Disagree? Here’s your chance to sound off."

Odd that this should come up:

I'd recommend a book I've just finished: "Literary Feuds", by Anthony Arthur. It's a very good look at the nature of literary rivalries, from Mark Twain's spat with Bret Harte to the running fight between Gore Vidal and Truman Capote. Fortunately, Arthur doesn't stoop to gossipy sniggering about the antagonists, rather keeping the tone high-brow, allowing the bon mots and savage criticisms of one artist to another show how well an intellect can defend itself while under critical attack.

I loved the Vidal quote on the death of Capote: "A good career move".

Back to work, Melissa

oh yeah...
pardon my previous generalizations. While I can't cite a specific paper, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you mention Thomas Kinkaide to a visual artist of any stripe you'll get an earful. He is the Kenny G of that world, despised and feared.

what's wrong with bashing?
Re: rita's comment. Cookie's got it - artists do this to one another all the time. Music's been mentioned, but think visual artists, too: abstractionist vs. realists, commercial artists vs. folk art, college art students vs. well... anyone. None of these groups are particularly kind to one another. If you're feeling generous you can label what they do 'criticism', but IMHO that requires more openmindedness than is usually present.

Can't we all just get along? No. Defense of subjective qualities becomes more intense when any mook can pick up a brush, a pen, a mic, (etc) and call themselves an artist. The lovey-dovey bits of me say there's nothing wrong with this freedom, but then I'm thinking of hobby art. That's great. But when dollar values start getting assigned, when the media is sown to the masses, then there needs to be a conscious review by the Good and the Wise (all present here, no doubt) of the aesthetics that are being developed. And if something can't justify itself, then take the piss out of it and feel good about doing it.

Because, hell, it's not going to keep them from getting published, displayed, or produced.

ps, cookie: ayuh. I was up north of you, around Union; then the Bangor area, deah. Now I'm just From Away.

PAB,
"[The Shining] is not a movie of Stephen King's book."
I agree wholeheartedly and I think King's feelings that the movie didn't do the book justice was the catalyst for wanting to do the so-so miniseries.

And your DARK TOWER question was one I was thinking about, too, when I was re-reading prior to the fifth volume of the series. Enquiring minds want to know.

Rita,
I saw no "bashing" in HE's comments concerning Grisham (but, maybe that's because I share the same opinion, so whatta I know?) and I'm a little perplexed concerning your comments about "not used to seeing writers slamming other living writers"??? Pick up the NY Times Review of Books. Go to a writer's conference. Or a workshop. Or, the most recent National Book Awards event where Hazard dissed King. And I guarantee you that there is a violinist out there who fuckin' hates Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix and would gladly tell the world if someone really cared what a violinist thought about a guitar player. Frank! Tell Rita about the shit that goes on in the hip-hop world.

And Turow is a much better writer than Grisham. As far as lawyers go. Though, I guess if you like the non-fiction lawyers, Posner would be the way to go.

OOOOOHHH-OOOOOHHH, ATC, you mentioned a short story you read by Clark being ridiculous...I recently read something by her in some anthology and it was the worst worst piece of shit crap fucking lazy-ass writing I had seen in awhile. I had never read anything by her until then and I find no reason to seek out her other work. It was about some knucklehead living in the apartment or condo or townhouse or something next door to a lady and he breaks into her laundry room and that was his MO for doing this serial killing shit....Ohmigod, utter waste of time. (I'm very angry about this, because it was in a Block anthology and I would've thought they could've come up with something better. Maybe Block lost a bet or something.)

Rita said:"I don't see parallels in the other arts, like violinists slamming rock guitar players, etc."

You apparently missed Pat Metheny's scathing criticism of Kenny G. which appeared a couple of years ago. It is still circulated widely among jazz musicians. Of course, Metheny was preaching to the choir.

Music is one of the worst professions for bad-mouthing. How many sopranos does it take to screw in a light-bulb? Ten: one to screw in the lightbulb and 9 to claim they could have done it better.And yes, musicians of one genre will make disparaging remarks about music of another genre. All the time. Every day. Just hang out on a couple music BBS's and you'll definitely see it.

BTW: I don't think it's "wrong" to criticize another artist's (or writer's) work even if they do the same kind of work. Yes, artists should support each other, but not at the expense of accepting all works as equally worthy.

" Grisham may write badly, but he brings people into the bookstores, so it seems that all writers with books on the shelves can indirectly profit from his success."

This is like saying that people who walk into a record store to buy Kid Rock's latest might, just might, pick up a recording of Bill Evans or of something like the Golijov Passion just because Kid Rock got them into the store. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it's highly unlikely.

Not saying that Grisham shouldn't write or that folks shouldn't enjoy his books if they do. But I think it's fine to point out reasons *why* one might *not* enjoy (or even respect) Grisham's writing. Different strokes for different folks---including the patron author here. He's welcome to his informed opinion and others are free to disagree. But I personally disagree that it's wrong for artists to "bash" another of their trade. The "bashing" is often a mere expression of how one artist would never want to write, play, paint or dance in the "bashee's" manner.

King's Speech
Okay, I read King's speech, and he does not praise Clancy or Mary Higgins Clark at all; the sentence in question scolds those members of the lit establishment who make a point of saying they never read popular folks like same. (Incidentally, I recall enjoying a couple of Clark's earliest books, a long long time ago...though a short story I recently heard by her was the most ridiculous thing I'd encountered in many years.)

His actual praise goes to "Elmore Leonard, Peter Straub, Nora Lofts, Jack Ketchum, whose real name is Dallas Mayr, Jodi Picoult, Greg Iles, John Grisham, Dennis Lehane, Michael Connolly, Pete Hamill and a dozen more."

A perfectly respectable group, even if you disagree with one or two names on it. (Grisham in particular seems to push the revulsion buttons.) Certainly, Lehane's MYSTIC RIVER and Ketchum's terrifying THE GIRL NEXT DOOR have a lot more to say about what drives the human animal than the average book about philandering college professors or depressed suburbanites bemoaning the pointlesness of everything while wandering through supermarket aisles. A-TC

Just read the King speech and found it pretty admirable. I was happy to see he gave just due to Peter Straub and Jack Ketchum.

David Hemmings!

Blow Up was a important film for me. I am thus saddened by the loss of David Hemmings.

Also, if you guys really want to read something other than Grisham, read the stories of Cortazar.

Steve Dooner

Stanley Ellin / King
Have never gotten around to the mystery novels of Boucher or Carr, but Ellin is terrific. And for a prime example of a dangerous vision, check out Ellin's THE DARK FANTASTIC. A hefty portion of that book is written from the point of view of Charles Witter Kirwan; dying of cancer and blaming the blacks for the deterioration of the school in which he taught, the neighborhood in which he lives, and the building next door which he owns and rents to them, he intends to blow up the building with himself and most of the tenants inside it. Unlike Archie Bunker, who proved himself an idiot every time he opened his mouth, Kirwan is intelligent, articulate, and horrifyingly persuasive -- persuasive to the point where you think "Yeah, I can see that -- Jesus, what am I thinking?" while reading his portions. Scary as hell.

And his short fiction is a must.

One caveat--Ellin's last novel, VERY OLD MONEY, was reprinted in paperback and the reprint I saw left off the last page of the original hardcover source. It's just a couple of paragraphs, but those paragraphs give a nice ironic chill to the story and you don't want to be without them. If you start scrounging for Ellin in the used book shops, look for the hardcover on this one. Or buy the paperback, borrow the hardbound from the library, and copy the last paragraphs into your pb.

King's speech -- struck me when I saw it that Grisham, Clancy & Clark were used more as examples of writers dismissed because they sell rather than as high points of contemporary popular lit. He did include Grisham in his later list with Straub & Leonard et. al., though, and as I recall he referred to Grisham in ON WRITING, saying that Grisham knew his law firm backgrounds so well that you had to believe them.

And it was great to see the tribute paid to Tabitha King; she's a terrific writer herself, and it's a shame that so much of her work is out of print and that her novel THE SKY IN THE WATER (listed in SK's ON WRITING appendix) hasn't found a publisher yet.

Bests to all,

--tr

writers bashing writers
Interesting comments by Mr. Ellison on Grisham...I'm not used to seeing writers slamming other living writers. I don't see parallels in the other arts, like violinists slamming rock guitar players, etc.

Grisham may write badly, but he brings people into the bookstores, so it seems that all writers with books on the shelves can indirectly profit from his success.

Dorie: Didn't mean to ignore your question yesterday. I am from Ithaca and currently in Ithaca, but wasn't posting from Ithaca until September of this year. cookie is from Ithaca. Does that answer your question?

rich: Thanks for the link to King's speech.

::dons asbestos suit::

I wonder if the reason why he hated Kubrick's rendition of The Shining was the fact that it wasn't "true." Jack wasn't mad from Day One, only vulnerable to madness, and because of changes in the story, Kubrick's version doesn't unfold in the horrifyingly organic way that King's novel does. That's been my point all along, and though I love Kubrick's movie, it's not a movie of Stephen King's book.

::removes asbestos suit, hopes rabid Kubrickites have been taking their medication::

It's also wonderful to see how much he loves his wife.

Is Peter Straub really not considered "literary fiction"? At his best he's as anyone. Go out and read his books and see if I'm not right. Is horror just not considered a "literary" genre? Do you have to be dead to be taken into the canon as a horror writer?

DARK TOWER QUESTION: Did King borrow The Tick-Tock Man from Harlan? Did they ever discuss it?

Frank: I enjoyed Secretary enormously, but the part where the media got involved strained my willing suspension of disbelief. In spite of that, huge thumbs up.

Cindy: I read A TIME TO KILL and enjoyed it, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. However, you and Mr. King are more than entitled to your opinions.

PAB

Various
Add my positive vote to "Secretary," but only if you "get" the ending, which is not quite as single-mindedly happy as some of its audiences believe; there's a subtle point to the final, complex expression on Gyllenhaal's face.

I get all the Grisham and Clancy I want from the movies based on their books; I know that's a mug's game (as most of the movies based on Westlake wouldn't tempt me to investigate that worthy, either), but I honestly don't get any sense of there being any more "there" there. When my thriller-buying dollar can get me Stephen Hunter (!), or Michael Marshall, or Greg Rucka, or whatsisface the guy who wrote THE HANCOCK BOYS and THE CARETAKER, or Ken Follett, or Ed McBain, or Tim Dorsey or Carl Hiassen, or any number of non-brand names providing fascinating work, the works of Grisham and Clancy and Cussler, which I've absorbed by mass-media osmosis, just don't attract. I will confess to wanting to read Grisham's A PAINTED HOUSE, but only because it's reputedly a very non-formula book for him, and I'm curious over whether he pulled it off.

Secretary
I second Deb's thumb's down on Secretary, and not just because she is my lovely spouse. I looked forward to this movie for quite awhile, but when I finally saw it I was disappointed by the small-movie hype. Sometimes I think reviewers just want to love a small film with a quirky premise to look cool to peers and readers/viewers.

Spader was good. The movie did not inspire.

-TODD

Dear Harlan,

Would you mind settling a bet between a friend and I? It concerns your short story from Deathbird Stories called "At The Mouse Circus." We have a six-pack of Sam Adams riding on the wager. I have my own idea as to what the story is about and my other friend has her's. Would you mind giving just a brief explanation? In fear of swaying your potential reply to my side, I'll keep my explication to myself. Something succinct will suffice. Just a clue, even, in the right direction as to the story's origin and/or theme would be greatly appreciated .
There's great scene in Annie Hall where Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are standing in line at a theater and this guy behind them is "loudly pontificating" about Marshall McLuhan (sp?) and really annoying Woody's character. He thinks the guy is full of shit and wishes he would shut up. You know the rest, Woody pulls the real Mcluhan out from behind a poster where the educator begins to berate the poor guy for knowing absolutely nothing about his work.
It is in light of this scene I make this humble request: be my Mcluhan. Will ya'? Huh Unca' Harlan? Puhleeeez...

Sincerely,
Aron

Grisham: impossible plots, jerry-rigged logic, forced incidents, flat characterization, mundane and bucolic writing, lack of style, mid-section troughs, narrative holes ignored or so blatant that the astute reader could maneuver a Peterbilt through them, conclusions advertised halfway through, contemptible stereotyping, lazy while at the same time arrogant dependance on the low esteem and presumed intellect of his core audience.

I am not a fan.

I wish him no ill, but he isn't a carbuncle on the slowest novel Stanley Ellin ever wrote. Talk to me no "quality of Grisham" till you have read the mystery novels of Anthony Boucher, John Dickson Carr and Ellin, the master of them all. Your taste will realign itself sans screed from me.

Respectfully, Harlan

DAVID (and others): I second (or rather third) the recommendation for "Secretary" (and Glyllenhall's acting). And while talking fine film efforts, on the small screen, Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire" series is fuckin' terrific. I know I'm a Johnny-come-lately for only just figuring this out (after buying the DVD sets in the past year or so), but man...fantastic writing, excellent acting, who could ask for more? The episode entitled "The Body" (which I just watched last night) from the 5th series DVD set is one of the finest tele (or screen)plays to deal with the subject of death and the loss people feel. When Emma Caulfield (as Anya) did her short ramble during the middle of the show, I actually got choked up (something in my eye, I swear). Whedon is an excellent writer and damn fine director. Can't wait to see what he does next (too bad "Firefly" wasn't given a snowball's chance).
-- Yours in opinion this time, the man

Secretary

I'm with Frank in recommending "Secretary," which I saw on the big screen with my wife. A nifty little black comedy. Maggie Gyllenhaal turns in an astounding performance.

***Secretary???????????????? You gotta be joking Frank. Swing over to the other place.

Faisel, I know about Operation Mongoose and the like; but Castro should be judged equally by the left, as he is judged, or misjudged by the loony right.

Jailing of writers just should not be tolerated.

What they need to do is overthrow Casto and put in a true socialist or anarchist government. A real people's party.

The IMF and the neo-liberal goons will salivate once Castro dies. If he ever dies. He may be a demon.

------------

Angels In America is coming soon to HBO; with an all star cast, that includes Al Pacino, as Roy Cohn.

Looks amazing. Two thumbs up on Ebert and the chimp.

-----------

If you have never seen it, go rent Secretary; a wicked little black comedy about a woman who gets a job as a secretary, only to find out that the boss is into sado masochism. She turns into his slave, and it ends up with a pretty astounding ending. The premise seems base, but for some reason, it works. It is a deft look at love on the dark margins. Great.

Elijah: I totally relate to your comments about King being close to your heart as someone who grew up in Maine. Yeah, IT was particularly creepy---especially the part about the Chinese restaurant by the Bangor Mall. I've eaten there many times (but there were no eyeballs in the fortune cookies). Anyway, I *do* recognize many of the places. Everybody seems to hate TOMMYKNOCKERS (which I didn't hate so much), but I got a thrill out of the fact that rtes. 202 and 9 were mentioned because that's in my hometown (Albion) so all the time I'm reading the book, I'm thinking of aliens landing near my hometown!

And yes, King's example of success after initial struggle is something that inspires and gives hope to the little girl who grew up poor in the boonies of Maine: with talent and effort and support, it IS possible to achieve something beyond ending up in the paper mill or driving a wood truck or operating a skidder.

Thanks for the link to the text of the speech (now that I'm over on this window, I forget exactly who it was who provided the link. Forgive me for forgetting, but thanks for the link). I'll go check it out at my leisure.

I have read [or at least listened to on tape] a lot of Grisham. I don't remember A TIME TO KILL very well, though I think it played to the emotions more with its subject matter [race, rape, and revenge] That doesn't necessarily make Grisham a good writer, it just means he's able to use disturbing subject matter to manipulate the reader. He is at least good enough that I never gave up on any of his books, and that's something.

The problem is that Grisham writes about what is supposedly the "real" world, but it seems less real than the world that Stephen King writes about. I've had a lot harder time suspending disbelief with Grisham than I ever have with King. King's bloodsucking vampires seem more realistic than Grisham's bloodsucking attorneys. And I think that's a sign that Grisham isn't a very good writer, where King is a great writer. Grisham's writing just doesn't ring true.

Several items of mild interest.

First of all, American liberals have no reason to apologize for Cuba. For one thing, liberals were the ones who'd started that covert war against Castro: remember that just about all of those harebrained schemes to take the Beard out came out of the Kennedy and Eisenhower administrations, neither of which could be considered terribly leftist or even right-wing.

And the issue of comparative misery is a tricky one to play. For one thing, we don't really know how bad Cuba'd be if Castro had failed. The best evidence is that it'd be another death-squad hellhole that'd enjoyed lots of U.S. funding, but that's not exactly certain. And if we're going to say that Cuba's better off under Castro than the alternative, then we may have to consider that the invasion of Iraq may have been an improvement over Saddam Hussein.

Not much to add about Stephen King, either. Lovely speech that did get some whisper-down-the-lane distortion. I ought to mention one thing. King mentioned that there were people who said with pride that they hadn't read anything by certain popular writers, like John Grisham. I haven't read anything by any of those writers. But that's not because I think they're bad writers. (After all, if I haven't read them, how would I know?) It's because I just have too many other things on my plate. For the record, I haven't managed to read any of Martin Amis's novels, and Marcel Prous still remains Unread by Brian, so it's not a matter of snobbery. But I really ought to give Grisham a try. For all I know, the guy could be John D. MacDonald reborn.

Actually, one thing I like about a lot of "popular fiction" writers is that they are more likely to describe how things work in the Real World. Take John D. MacDonald's _Condomunium_, which was a best-seller back in the 1970s. About a quarter into the book, MacDonald follows a retired engineer who examins the foundations of his high-rise condo, and finds all kinds of flaws and sub-par materials. MacDonald manages to give the reader a sense of the actual, technical issues involved with construction... which adds a _lot_ to the growing terror of the approaching hurricane.

No Frank,
Not surprised a whit. The bead on your "welded" mind is utterly faux. You've insight that can not co-exist with unfounded dogma. So, while your ship lists very seriously (and oft-times disturbingly )to port I've seen the gentle swell of logic tip you starboard.

There's vast hope for you mine darklink.
;)
Cindy



Jay,
You hang in there-- you know what you have in you and it won't be long that others will know it too.

Cindy


AS FOR THOSE OF YOU who feel comfortable disregarding Grisham, who do not not see him as a gifted man capable of producing books of consequence-- go find a copy of A Time To Kill, then come back here and tell me the man can't write. The quality of this book calls you either ill informed or devoid of the ability to know a work of art when it smacks you up side the head ( as we say in the South).

John Grisham has produced at least ( this ) one pearl of literary brilliance and I fuckin' DEFY you to say otherwise.

Yeah, THAT'S a gauntlet.
:)

Cindy

King, but also with regard to Ellison...
That's a neat speech, many thanks to rich for supplying the link that let me read it. Steven King is a hometown hero for me: I grew up in Maine and attended the high school at which he had taught, though I was a dozen-plus years too late to be in any class of his.

Because of the geographic closeness, I tend to read his stories trying to pick out influences I recognize. (yah yah, I just read them for pleasure the first time through, but I'm a chronic re-reader, blah blah blah) Some instances are simple enough - "It" has all the corny fun of a Decoder Ring if you're familiar with the Bangor, ME area. And many common traits of his main characters correlate with my apocryphal knowledge of Mr. King hisself.

But whether it's an escape into the improbable and ghoulish or a more reasonably character driven bits and I keep coming back to a couple questions. How much is drawn from personal experience? How much is purely invented? It's embarassing to say that I do this to justify burgeoning habits in my own writing when I'm uncertain of their virtue ...but that's exactly what's happening. I'm not interested in becoming a mimic, but I find myself wondering if I'm slacking off when I should be flexing muscles of recall or, alternately, invention. Do writers lie by nature, or is it all metaphor and reinterpretation of the day-to-day realities? If you don't want to sully the board with a reply, please consider yourself invited to email a response directly to: elijahnewton "at" yahoo.com

King's Speech
King's speech struck me for a very different reason.

It restored hope. His pre-Carrie situation mirrors my own. I know of his battle with alcoholism and the rage and frustration of living hand-to-mouth while trying to hold on to what most people regard as a useless pastime or fantasy. While I can't say that I'm slave to alcohol, I see the same path before me. These days, it's Hope and Struggle.

Give it up and you die.

And it reminds me how much I owe to Pam for surviving these days, helping me secure these aspirations in the way some cling to their faith in God.

Here is what King said during his NBA award speech (no, not the speech concerning the Celtics trade earlier this season---the other NBA speech):

http://www.nationalbook.org/nbaacceptspeech_sking.html

And if you never thought King was a quote good guy unquote, this speech should dispel that notion. Some very good lines in that speech and the speech really is about one thing and one thing only: giving his wife her due. Yes, he does mention the three-headed dog Cerberus (Grisham, Clancy, Clark), but makes no mention of their quality---except he does mention Grisham along with some others as far as quality goes. But, Grisham is King's opinion and although I don't like Grisham I think one of the best and worst novels I've ever read was The Pelican Brief.

King does single out Ketchum and Straub. You'll see the others as you read (or, listen or watch) the speech.

- -
King did use some bad examples in his speech, I believe, but his overall point, that the critical establishment penalizes some writers simply for being popular and accessible, remains sound. As I believe I've said here before, the John Irving / John Updike attack on Tom Wolfe was downright disgusting.

There are thriller writers, right now, whose line-by-line prose, and whose portrayal of the world, is better than any of the self-absorbed, no-plot literary types.

Although there are many, many other possible examples -- I am specifically thinking of THE AX by Donald Westlake.

John K.:

"Repent Harlequin, Said The Tick-Tock Man" is another good example of a story that doesn't age because it addresses fundamental human concerns. That is why it is constantly in print.

John Thompson,

I guess the syntax more than anything threw me off.

Some popular novels last. Dickens was huge. Twain. Others. You could argue that their works didn't fit the cultural norms, or whatever, and you may be right about that.

But popularity isn't a good litmus test either way. Some popular things suck, some unpopular things rule. And vv.

John K: I don't understand why you found it strange that popular novels that are too much of their time tend not to last. Look at PEYTON PLACE or the works of Edgar Wallace. The works that have lasted transcend their time period. As much as I love most of Stephen King's work, he often makes references to things future generations will only puzzle over (Take THE DARK HALF, for instance, which mentions Axl Rose; if history is kind, and I think it will be in this respect, no one will remember this talentless screecher.)

I'm guessing it's as John K said, that King wants to encourage the "academic writing" establishment to not insulate themselves from the world of popular fiction, but I'm basing that solely on what people have said here about his speech.

Never really been able to get into King's DARK TOWER series--perhaps I should try it again. I lost patience with it when he released one volume that was just a big, long flashback, and if I remember right at the end of the book they were in the exact same situation they'd been in at the beginning. They're better than King's forays into science fiction [assuming you consider THE TOMMYKNOCKERS and DREAMCATCHER as such] but it hasn't worked for me so far.

My favorites are probably his short stories...love his non-fiction writing as well. There are more than a few of his novels that I love too, but my wife is saying I gotta go now...

Why do folks thing King mentioned Grisham, Clark, et al? Does he really think they are his peers and deserve greater recognition as artists?

HE mentioned Peter Straub--a favorite of mine with a new book out. Anyone read _lost boy/lost girl_ yet? I am excited to get my hands on it, as it has Tim Underhill and Tom Pasmore in it and takes place in the dreaded Millhaven.

FAQ: Great to see your name!

PAB

Cuba
Frank,

Cuba's history of human rights violations is not as grim as those sanctioned by the Goverment of other South American neighbours (El Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua) whose corrupt goverments have enjoyed strong support from successive US administrations (well, apart from Nicaragua when Oliver's Army murdurously came a calling while the Sandanista's were in charge...).

This is not to justify Cuba's human rights history after the revolution (i.e. towards Castros political opponents like the writer you mentioned, homosexuals, AIDS victims, etc) but tarring all "liberals" as defenders of Castro is disingenious. After my first visit there, I feel that a lot of the human rights issues could have been resolved had the US sanctions not been implemented.

Believe me, it could easily have become a complete tolitarian Police state like Saudi Arabia, its to the people's credit that it hasn't. Unfortunately, continued US goverment and intelligence activity could push it towards that route.

Incidentally, the father of a friend of mine was a diplomat for the Ugandan goverment and he had strong personal relations with Castro. I was told about Castro's support for African counteries that wanted to become more self reliant then be forever in debt to European/US power and him sending over troops to stop the South Africans crossing over into Angola.

I think Chomsky talked about this in a recent interview in Counterpunch.

FAQ

castro
Gimmie a break, Frank. Liberals don't apologize for Castro; they just point out that the repression there is a lot less than in US-supported countries. In Nicaragua they'd blow up your press. In El Salvador they'd leave a head on a pike as a warning. Putting people in jail for dissent is shouldn't be foreign to anyone who knows American History. Pretending all repression is the same is to ignore the serious human consequences of foreign policy.

At the same book award King was at, this writer from Cuba talked about how there are writers who are jailed in Cuba for merely writing a book. If this is true, then some of the hapless liberal types who say good things about Castro have a bit of explaining to do.

See Cindy, I have my moments. Shocked?

No Todd, I haven't embraced the dark side just yet.

fabulous fantasy

> Bradbury said that he was going to the moon, Mars and
> the stars and would she like to come along and she said
> yes. And that was the greatest yes Bradbury ever received.

Not only that, but he kept his promise!

I read my first Philip Pullman book last weekend -- _The Golden Compass_ -- and was quite blown away.

***In " Electronic Gaming Monthly " they were reviewing the game, Legacy of Kain: Defiance. The subtitle was " I have no jaw, and I must scream. " In relation to the game, you'd have to be a gamer to get it. But never the less, a neat play on a Ellison title. Never would have expected that in such a magazine!

Ben: Now that you have The Nightmare Before Christmas on DVD, try watching it with the language option set to French: it becomes this bizarre existential art house film and it's fall-on-the-floor hilarious.

Best,
Mark

This is Halloween, this is Halloween, Halloween, Halloween...
I purchased THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS on DVD yesterday, in order to have a properly "Holiday-orientated" movie to celebrate on Christmas day. Although I usually don't care much for Tim Burton's output, the marvellous character designs and magnificent stop-motion animation are just too good to turn down. (I'm not making an effort to sound like a video cover-quote. The stop-motion IS f***ing magnificent.)

Harlan: fair enough, and thanks for that. For an enfant terrible, you're très raisonnable ;)

Lee: UPS tracker says the magic drink powder should be here any minute, and I shall post it on to you straightaway. With hopes that you'll be spared the flu for the rest of winter!

P.A.B.: I went back and read the archives....looks like I missed some good bits earlier in the year! Remind me please, are you the contributor who lives in Ithaca?

B-5/Straczynski
Since Straczynski offered nothing but a teaser, saying he couldn't offer additional details til January 15th, I would presume, at the very least, that Harlan wouldn't be able to be any more forthcoming on his own. ATC

Return of Babylon 5?
JMS comments, sorta, here...

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-12/02/10.45.tv

Harlan, any comment on involvement?

Raiza! Yes! That's right.

In Nancy-speak I believe it's prounced (with a rolling "r") "Rooskybitch".

THANK YOU,
:)
yer pal,
Cindy

Marquand
Harlan: Speaking of the almighty bridge, in the event that no one else here has mentioned it, I wanted to thank you for your repeated recommendations of John P. Marquand. I had read something of yours about a year ago in which you had mentioned THE LATE GEORGE APLEY. Based upon that and an article by Jonathan Yardley in The Washington Post (sorry, doc, had to get a second opinion), I decided to check the tome out. Sure enough, I was floored by Marquand's razor-sharp prose, marveling over how Marquand had wheeled in a momentous Trojan horse into the complacent American castle. Since then, I've read somewhere in the area of ten books of his, including the shaky MR. MOTO series (although those books had the effrontery to throw in a few self-doubting expatriates into pulp spy thrillers), with more in my bookpile, along with Milicent Bell's biography. Even managed to spread the gospel among a few used bookstore clerks, one of whom is going out of her way to keep some Marquand in stock. I was saddened by Thomas Harrow's remarkable cluelessness, moved to shout "You motherfucking idiot!" in public over the events of POINT OF NO RETURN, and, with SINCERELY WILLIS WAYDE (my favorite of the bunch and, oddly enough, one of the few that didn't employ Marquand's time-honored flashback), I was devastated for days at Willis Wayde's despicable transformation.

That Marquand continues to be overlooked is nothing less than criminal. He's one of the few authors I've read that's skewered institutions without mocking the troubled plights of his protagonists. Truly the harder road to travel. His characters are all too human in the foolish decisions they make. His married couples are astutely observed, steeped in the worst of compromises. Remarkably, Marquand was criticized for chronicling flatline heroes, but I can't think of another author that's dared to display the harsh undertow of comfy middle class life quite like him. Too many people trundle through life without even the inkling of an inner revelation. And the delicate decision of whether to watch haplessly as someone destroys herself or to intervene and scare them straight becomes a tricky ethical tightrope.

In an age where a LA STRADA reject reigns in Sacramento, and the rich are rewarded with sweeping tax cuts, Marquand's tales of upward mobility at tremendous personal costs are perhaps more pertinent now than the 40s and 50s. To my knowledge, only one of Marquand's books remains in print (POINT OF NO RETURN). THE LATE GEORGE APLEY is being reissued in April -- but probably only because it's a Pulitzer winner.

Marquand, a man who was one of the most popular writers of his day, appears doomed for extinction. But I'm glad I caught him, thanks in large part to your plaudits, before he was truly impossible to track down.

If for whatever reason you may have considered that some of us weren't listening about Marquand (whom you've mentioned a lot these days), know that at least one of your readers is listening. Thanks again for spreading the word.

For those here who might need additional proof, and someone who can express Marquand's importance better than I can, here's a link to the Yardley article I mentioned:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32907-2003Feb19

Marquand was one of the greatest examples of someone snubbed by the literary elite precisely BECAUSE he did hack work. And now only a miraculous rave by Oprah or a hit movie adaptation (neither of them likely at this point) will probably save him from the dead. We are all the lesser because of it.

DORIE: I was in a bad mood. It only occurred to me after the posting to Mr. Walsh -- long after -- that he'd probably never seen a copy of RABBIT HOLE, thus the "rookie" query. As it turned out, that was precisely the case, and Mr. Walsh's properly ironic response was more than evenhanded. I was in a bad mood. I wish my excuse were deeper and more profound, but it was just a weary day, and, well, I was in a bad mood.

Maggie Bradury was a delightful woman. Elegant, graceful, wise, and patient. I spoke to Ray yesterday, and he's holding up well. It came as a severe shock to those of us who are close personal friends of Ray and Maggie, her leaving first. Though she has been fragile for some longish while, Ray's recent health problems seemed more imminent of, well, closure. So we've been looking to the left, when suddenly the strike came from the right. She was a superior person, and her leaving is oh so very saddening.

CINDY: Mrs. Gorbachev's first name was Raiza.

Like a number of you, Stephen's acceptance speech left me ambivalent. He was being mannered and careful when he spoke of stick-up-the-ass Bloom-style pedants. Very "Late George Apley" (as John P. Marquqnd would put it). I thought his "bridge" metaphor apt and worthy. Carefully selected and nuanced. But because he is a kind man, and a giving man, he extended his largesse to people who aren't fit to carry his pencil case. Naming three dreadful, simply dreadful, writers like Clancy, Grisham, and Clark, was a disservice both to his believability and to the valid discourse he was trying to start. It was precisely the sort of pandering to the lummoxes of which Harold Bloom and the NYReviewOfHoHum have made their case against King and his compadres. He could as easily have used the names Donald E. Westlake, Louis L'Amour, and Octavia Estelle Butler and made the same point...AND been on solid ground.

But I say hurrah for him. He mentioned Peter Straub, Dutch Leonard and a few others wizards of wordplay. On sum, he did okay, I feel, though as I've said above, he's too nice a man to give them what they TRULY deserved by way of ass-kicking.

Respectfully, Harlan

Frank Church,

I didn't attend King's speech, and I didn't see it, but I've read synopses and quotes, and am pretty close to 100 percent positive he never suggested Mary Higgins Clark deserves a National Book Award nomination. He said those in attendance should read those writers, to stay in touch with their culture, but not that they deserve the award. Right?

Jay, it was King himself who called his prose the literary equivalent of a Big Mac with fries. So you've got him to blame for those comparisons. I think he's wrong, though; he seems conscious of the prose, and writes well enough, even, at times, quite gracefully.

John Thompson, you make some strange assumptions, including the one that works that "conform to the current cultural dictates" never last. But I agree that style is important, maybe more important than anything, and that Grisham et al. are lacking in style.

I think King's finest works will last. And deserve to. And the fanboy part of me, which is small but there, can't wait to read THE DARK TOWER VII, which will, I think, lay all doubts to rest.

Finding Time To Read
P.A., a suggestion if you want to catch up on the Dark Tower series and beat those commuter blues:

Audio Books.

Yes, they are expensive, especially since you will want the unabridged audio books (and I do not believe Stephen King offers anything but), but I've purchased my audio books through ebay at some surprisingly low costs. I go to the appropriate section, search for 'unabridged' and then bid away. Thus, an instant time waster of a traffic jam becomes a good chunk of the next chapter of Wizard and Glass.

I just received my unabridged audio of Neal Stephonson's The Diamond Age, and though the retail price on the package was $44.95, I got it for $6 plus shipping.

I commute 32 miles each way, from the way way top of Phoenix to the way way bottom of Phoenix. Naturally, so does everyone else here in the valley. Audio books bring sanity when you are sick of your music and talk radio.

-TODD

Sorry to hear about Marguerite Bradbury. The poem Bradbury read at her funeral service is on the message board at his website; it's very moving.

Stephen King's recovering from pneumonia right now, though the article I read today said he's off oxygen anyway.

Take care, everybody, Jon

My favorite Poe story is Murders In the Rue Morgue, basically because of the surprise jolt of who the killer was, and the sadness at how the ape was mistreated, and the morality play of how man treats nature. It went beyond just a horror ditty.

When you have a body of work as expansive as King's, it's inevitable that some of it will not make the cut as classic literature worthy of study. I just got The Complete Poe, and lemme tell ya, it's a big ass book with very thin pages, and much of it I'd never heard of or read. It would take years to read it and frankly, not all of it is worth reading except for completists. This is not to say that I won't read it, but I already know some of it is dreck. It's inevitable.

The same is true of King. For every Tommyknockers there's a The Shining or The Stand or Carrie. I'm not sure why being popular should automatically preclude literary merit or critical praise; that seems like sour grapes to me. Why does laboring in obscurity the only way to be respected? I'm glad King is getting some recognition in his own lifetime, but I think he will be canonized, so to speak, by future generations of readers.

On a side note, I've been reading The Dark Tower series for the first time and it's killing me because I really, REALLY want to sit down and gorge myself on it, just read the whole series, short stories and related novels, but I can't b/c of school work. Argh! I wish it were summer! (Also because I sat, stopped dead in traffic, for 1 hour and 40 minutes this morning due to a snow related accident. Needless to say I was massively late for work, which threw my whole day off. Damn lake effect!)

PAB

Jay and Peter,
Hear, hear.

King and Poe
John: comparing "Cask" to Dreamcatcher is like comparing fluffy pancakes to a burnt omelette. How about "Cask" to The Shining, or Cujo, or Bag of Bones? If there is any one truth that most of us here agree on, it's that King isn't batting a thousand with his books, but that doesn't diminish in any way the quality of those works we do hold up as examples of good fiction.

Will King's entire ouvre be read in a hundred years? I sure as hell hope not. I would hate to see a world what inherits Tommyknockers as an example of 20th century literature. But one just has to look at the rest of his corpus of work to realize that despite his occasional stinkers, King's batting average, his accessability, and his style (yes, the man has style, which is what distinguishes him from the real McToads of literature) are worthy of respect and consideration, no matter what the Harold Blooms of the world say.

---Peter

It seems to me that the whole debate on King hinges on the idea that he is a popular writer. Now, call me a purist, but doesn't the craft break down to the idea of telling a story and its final effect on the reader? If the story itself evokes images, carries the reader along and, in the end, leaves him or her with a sense of a story well told and time well spent...isn't that the core of what we do? I mean, debating the structure and esoteric constructs of the man's prose seems to me to be like judging a film based on its set design. Sure, its important, but does every "good" story have to be based on unconventional word choice or sentence structure?

Many compare King to eating McDonalds instead of something more substantial and healthy. I disagree. When was the last time someone read 700 pages for fun? With King, its like you're having a 700-page conversation with the man as he tells you what happened over coffee or during the long drive from Maine to Ohio. King's gift is that he can create these worlds and not force the reader to think they need some sort of entrance exam to qualify for reading it.

You can open someone's imagination and thought without beating them over the head with truckloads of cross-referenced footnotes. I think the elistist who does't want to see King win in his/her club has spent all their time trying to impress the fuck out of other writers and critics and not enough time just telling stories.

But hey: Mark Twain never gussied up his prose, so I guess his pulpy folksy charm ain't worthy of sittin' with the upper crusties, neither.

Sad News
I don't know if any of you have been to the Ray Bradbury website recently, but they are posting on the message board the sad news that Marguerite Bradbury passed away on Nov. 25.

I have a Ray Bradbury video that I like to show my writing classes on occasion and in it, he relates the story of how he proposed to Mageurite. It tuns out her friends were a bit skeptical about her becoming involved with a pulp writer, a man they felt 'was going nowhere.' In response, Bradbury said that he ws going to the moon, Mars and the stars and would she like to come along and she said yes. And that was the greatest yes Bradbury ever received.

Having likewise married a woman who took a chance on a dreamer, I know how special a person like that is and how much joy she brings to my life. Marguerite Bradbury gave Bradbury well over fifty years of that joy.

Mark

My problem with the writers King recommended is that their writing lacks style. I confess I get tired of sentences like "Peter went to the drugstore." Sometimes, the simplest way of saying something is the best, but an entire book of such sentences?? Plus, they do not encourage their audience to question anything. They conform to the current cultural dictates..and this is why most popular fiction never lasts.

To use an example from a different medium, the best movies, like the work of Kurosawa or Welles, take advantage of the visual medium, creating arresting images that whisper sweetly to the subconscious mind. Language offers the same opportunities. Where is the sheer delight in wordplay? While I admire a lot of King's work, one only has to look at Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" versus, say, Dreamcatcher, to see why Poe's work endures.

People get in the habit of buying certain writers, even when said writers no longer deliver. It explains why people eat at places like McDonald's, stay in deadening relationships and watch sitcoms. We are creature of habit, plagued by routine.

King's speech, I believe, was at least partly motivated by the criticism he's received over the years, some of it fair, some of it unfounded. But a leap into unconscious populism is not the answer.

Good Ol Walshy!

Hey Walshy,

I hope that didn't sour you on joining the HERC. It's still a good investment. Good job speaking up for yourself though.

Always a friend,

Steve Dooner

Jay: I'm so glad your dad is OK. I treasure my father and know exactly how you feel. Hang in there and keep us updated.

Frank: In spite of your reminder, I missed the Stephen King speech but from what you've said, I have to agree with you. John Grisham and Mary Higgins Clark are beach reading, not art, and I feel like King is demeaning himself if he's placing his work in the same category with theirs. I went through a period where I read a bunch of Grisham, and some of it is quite entertaining, but I don't think it will endure as a classic body of work. But what do I know, I'm just an English teacher, and The Canon can be rather enigmatic. OTOH, I do think that major portions of King's body of work will become Canon, if hasn't happened already, and I'd love to teach a college level class on King someday. Now that would be fun...

Dorie: Far be it for me to defend someone so utterly capable of defending himself, I think Harlan was just messin' around with Walshy, having a bit of fun. You know, the way lion cubs have fun when they take your head in their mouths and shake. No harm intended, but your brain is a bit rattled. Having personally experienced this kind of jocularity from the man HimsElf, I'm tellin' ya, Mark took in it in the spirit in which it was intended, like "Ouch-- ha ha ha!" (And if you think that was julienned, have I got some archives for YOU!)

PAB

Colmes has always been good to reply to e-mail...he wrote me a couple of times back when I used to listen to his radio show during the early Nineties. He was nervier back then, I think. In many markets he followed Limbaugh and there was a lot of arguing. He loved getting under people's skin. I imagine television has taken a lot of that away.

My Thanksgiving was bad, though not as bad as some other people's. My wife and I both decided that taking my father-in-law to the doctor was a better idea than having to endure hours with the other relatives at our house. So we just let them have the run of the place, and the place was a wreck when we got home.
A gang of circus apes would have made less of a mess. Father-in-law is fine, really just had a cold but his doctor tells him to get checked out anytime he has anything, even things that seem minor. My wife and I both have colds but it's a small price to pay.

My wife got a call back from one of the universities she applied to...this job market being what it is I consider that a good sign but we've yet to hear anything else. Maybe the person is sick, or on vacation. It's nerve wracking.

Gosh, Alan Colmes emailed me. Here is his witty retort:

"My book is doing quite well; get your facts straight.
And if you're any kind of liberal or progressive you'd be more open
minded.
Apparently, you like the conservatives you claim to hate."

Rob, I think I just found your soulmate.

------------

Damn, if Steven King didn't piss me off last night.

I was watching his speech at the National Book Awards, and he went off, castigating the throng for not being more open minded, in selecting their book prizes. His idea was that more popular books should be nominated. His picks included, John Grisham, Tom Clancy, Mary Higgins Clark and the like. Does Steve actually read that trash? Aim higher, oh bard of the bump in the night.

I like the guy, but damn.

Here I am standing under the tree in the electrical storm...holding a golf club aloft...

Harlan: I'm only an occasional and recent contributor, I freely admit I am not as well-informed and well-read as most of the crowd here, BUT: Mark Walsh there was looking for information. He was asking because he didn't know. I think it was unfair of you to julienne him just for inquiring. No matter how eloquently it was done. OK, none of my business, it obviously didn't bother him, for all I know the two of you are best pals and this is just you joshin' wid him--- but I have to add my two cents anyway.

Mrs. Claus By Any Other Name

Cindy and Cookie:

Thanks for the responses. (Apparently I'm not as crazy as my family would like to think. Then again...) The link to the New York Times was perfect for filling in the gaps.

Here's the funny part (as my cousin often says when she is telling a story after having dipped into the nog once too often) - when I first saw the image, I thought it was Harvey Fierstein. Within seconds, my mind changed it to Nathan Lane. (Luckily, the only time I testify against people is when I've been reviewing documents.)

And, based on the article, my guess is that the network decided it was best to go to breaking "news" rather than let Mr. Fierstein/Mrs. Turnblad sing.

Thanks again.

Ahhh The Reagans.

:)

I felt a bit guilty for watching-- but figured what the hell, informed minds wanna know.

I'm SO glad that I did!

All the hoopla over the meanness of the script and the acid portrayal of the Reagans-- in PARTICULAR Nancy. CBS pulled the PLUG on this lovely Christmas piece because of the outcry from Reagan supporters.

How silly!

I'm a Reagan supporter and I loved it.

Turns out the film is one of the most wildly amusing things I've seen since Dumb and Dumber. It was like an outstanding Saturday Night Live skit that had an extended life. It was Airplane and Mommie Dearest and I laughed out loud so often that my 15 year old son came to see what was so funny. It was apparently a universal thing as Beau also busted out-- in particular at the Gulag statement made by Nancy to Mrs. Gobechev ( what WAS her first name-- I can't remember- was it Irena or something like that?)

In any case, the writers took great license, going so far as to create dialogue between the President and his wife when no one else was around. The scenes with his top aides and cabinet members were TO DIE FOR. The characterization of Alexander Haig was a scream!

The cherry on the banana split that was The Reagans HAD to have been the writers' take on what preceded the Iran-Contra scandal. I SWEAR the guys hovering over a barely cogent President Reagan's hospital bed trying to get him to pass off on their idea of trading missiles for hostages LOOKED like they belonged in some Disney movie as cartoon villains.

If you haven't seen this you MUST.

Two thumbs up.
Cindy

p.s. Is anyone else here addicted to Larry David's show Curb Your Enthusiasm?

HARLAN: Brain rot? Holy moly, I hope not! Then again, given all the freshman essays I’ve read over the past twelve years, anything is possible. I’ve never seen a copy of The Rabbit Hole, so I wanted to make sure I had my information straight before sending off the check to join up. Dementia? Rookie mistake is more like it.

Nevertheless, apologies for my numbheadedness.

Having been an eyewitness to a drugstore burglary, and having had the robber put away on my identification & testimony, I am

Your chum,
Walshy

BECAUSE IT'S RELEVANT
Y'know, the owner of Macy's drowned on the Titanic.

It may be of interest for some people here to know that my feelings toward cops has changed over the last year; maybe the debate about better communication between police and the public has produced an effect or maybe it's me or maybe it's both but I've had radically more pleasant, more mutually diplomatic encounters in the course of the year (not to suggest I've been getting my ass in trouble).
Just thinking out loud after a conversation I had the other night with a really nice officer (we were respecting each other's boundaries since he WAS on duty). In fact, he even got into the political issues a bit even though we had to make it short.
There'll always be bad cops here and there; but what I perceived as a ratio has changed.

Jay: I'm glad to hear your father pulled through. Whew!!

Mike: Nathan Lane as Mrs. Clause? The NYTimes had an article about how Harvey Fierstein planned to dress as Mrs. Claus. It was a controversial move in Macy's "family parade." The article can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/27/nyregion/27CND-CLAUS.html

Harlan,

I have an audition for an acting class coming up where I need a monologue and I wondered if you'd object if I tried a portion of "Prince Myshkin, and Hold the Relish." Particularly the portion where the guy at the hot dog stand tells the story of how some men are just no good for women. I'm trying to find something and I think this would be something interesting. It's at least an option if I have your permission. If not, don't sweat it. I'm still looking.

Thanks for the time,
Bill

Scrooge.

Saw Walter Koenig at Mid-Ohio-Con today. He is looking well.
He said he will be appearing as Scrooge starting this week, I believe. I think he said it would be in Sherman Oaks, but I didn't write it down and it was about 6 hours ago. (Short term memory really crappy due to lack of sleep.)

Back to lurk mode. Bye.

JAY: As one who lost his father early, I smile at the way things have turned out (so far) for the best. Treasure the treasure, kiddo.

MARK WALSH: Sometimes I cannot believe some of you folks. Truly, no less than dumbfounded. For why, you ask? Here's for why, Mr. Walsh: Since nowhere on the front page of RABBIT HOLE do the words "HERC Newsletter" appear; since the huge name RABBIT HOLE appears on the front page in display type at least TWICE AS BIG as the largest headlines; since there appears on the front page of EVERY ISSUE since we began HERC, a drawing of a rabbit with my face on it; since the mailing is ALWAYS refered to passim the copy as RABBIT HOLE and never, to my recollection, as "the HERC newsletter"; since the title RABBIT HOLE appears in a black, reverse-out block at the top of two of the other pages in the current four-page issue; since the indicia page clearly, always says, "RABBIT HOLE is issued to members of The Harlan Ellison Recording Collection"; and since, happily, you have not previously indicated any pathology either of dementia or advanced tertiary syphilis resulting in blindness or brain-rot, I am driven ineluctably to the conclusion that you need a class in first- or second-grade remedial reading.

Walshy, baby, I would fear for my life if you were the only eye witness at the scene of my alleged crime.

Shaking his head in dismay, but smiling at Jay's good news, I remain, a stranger in a reeeeleeee strange land,

yr. pal,

Harlan

Mike,
It wasn't Nathan Lane it was Harvey Fierstien. He's adorable-- even as Mrs. Claus.

:)
Cindy


Jay,
Your dad sounds like the sort you should listen to. I'm glad he's home but don't just take one cardiologist's opinion that he's okay. Put them through their paces and make them figure out what caused it. None of this-- "well we think it might be" will do. There are a lot of wonderful doctors but there are a number who are not. The trick is sorting through them.

More unsolicited advice from
your friend,
Cindy

Hey Lee, I'm with you re: the elderly. I gained a new respect for our elderly ever since working on a personal project where I've spoken to many persons in their 80's & 90's. One fellow I was talking to about a year ago scared the be-jesus out of me without meaning to. He was talking about one of his buddys from WW2, what good friends they still are, etc., then he said, you know, I don't know what happened to the last 50 years (meaning they just flew by). You had to be there I suppose, but it chilled me to the bone.

Did I see what I thought I saw?
I'm looking for witnesses to a Thnksgiving event that I'm not sure really happened. I'm hoping someone here can support my story. If not, I will have to listen to my family's constant taunts that I was suffering from a pre-turkey delusional episode.

Our family was kinda watching the Macy's parade. (By that I mean the television was on, it was tuned to the parade, and some of us were watching it some of the time. Just one of those things you - I mean we - have to do on Thanksgiving.) I wandered into the kitchen, glanced back at the tv and, honest, I swear, I saw Nathan Lane dressed as Mrs. Santa Claus. Just about the time I was saying, "Everyone, look at...", they cut away to a special announcement. And what was more important than Mrs. Lanety Claus? Bush going to Baghdad.

Which raises interesting point number 2. Was the network so scared of Mr. Lane that they felt it necessary to yank him from the broadcast in exchange for one of the lamest important, breaking news items I've recently seen? It is an interesting conspiracy theory.

Anyway, if someone can back me on this (the story of Nathan, not the conspiracy - although that would be good, too), it would be greatly appreciated.

two (,) if

Thanksgiving entropy has destroyed my grammar.

apologies
MW

I'm confused...
So what else is new? you may say.

Well, I'm confused on this point: is 'The Rabbit Hole' that many of you have mentioned here the same thing as the HERC Newsletter? Or if there is a difference between the two? If someone could enlighten me, I would be thankful.

Best,
Walshy

Jay,

I have a great aunt with slowly failing eyesight. She’s one of those classic octegenarian blue haired ladies that lost her husband decades ago and has been doing very well, thank you very much, ever since. But the eye problem really bothers her because it points the way to the eventual loss of independence that finds everyone that doesn’t go earlier from something sudden. Can you believe that a priest she went to for counselling told her that she should ‘just be thankful she had had a good long life.’? She said she ‘told that jackass that he’d come to the same place quickly enough, and she wondered if he wouldn’t want a few more good days, too, when his time came.’

One of the things that angers me the most about American culture is the lack of respect and empathy that so many of us have for our elderly people. We yell at ‘em like they’re deaf, or honk at them as they try to cross a street, or patronize them in speech, as though they think as slowly as they move. I talk to the elders in my family as often as I can. Talking to an old person is like being in a time machine. They talk to you about delivering groceries with a donkey and cart from a general store, or about how they survived the Great Depression or got lost in the hedgerows during the Allied invasion of France and it’s such a thrill to see their eyes seeing in turn these things and places and events that don’t exist anywhere anymore, except in their heads.

Update
Thanks everybody.

My dad is 83 and one of the most disquieting things about this whole experience, to me, was that his treatment was approached with the same attitude mechanics give my 175K mile van... "it's made it this far...it don't owe you anything at this point." For a guy who is vibrant and healthy - a mad who looks, feels and acts like a man in his late 60s, this attitude made me angry.

More than that is the fear displayed by my mom - something you just don't see in that woman...ever. It was as though she finally came to realize what's lurking down the darkening hallway.

But he's home and resting. Tests were inconclusive. They think it MIGHT be medicine interaction. It MIGHT be just a fluke. I think they finally sent dad home because his pulse and BP were strong for a full day and he had the strength to ask "when do you think the cardiologist will get the time to get up off his ass and give me a few minutes?"

So the worst has been postponed.

And we celebrate another day together.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Jay: Sorry to hear about your father, and I hope he gets better soon.

All (or at least all south of the 49th parallel): I do admire the US for its ability to hold a four-day holiday weekend (unless you're a retail clerk or anyone else who got stuck working on Friday, that is). Canada doesn't seem to be able to advance beyond the three-day stage. Did anyone have turducken?

Cheers, Jon

Jay's Dad
Jay,

I'm pleased to hear your dad pulled through. My prayers for him and your family. Here's hoping he's with you for much longer.

Peg

"I have never seen this room so closed minded...the Cat In The Hat...looks quite funny; and Mike Myers looks just like the Cat come to life."

But FRANK...it's CORPORATE!

Jay,

Happy Thanksgiving, and here's hoping your dad is out of the hospital soon. I don't know how long my own dad will be around. At 71, he's lived longer than any man in his family, at least in the last couple or three generations. I'm just glad he's here.

To All:
The best to all your families out there.

Chuck

Punts each and every turkey carcass off the planet and looks forward to avoiding the stinking bird for at least a few weeks.

Hope noone had any gastoral intestinal episodes yesterday.

Don't ask.

----------------

Prick up thine ears: Sunday, at 9pm est. C-Span will be showing the speech by Steven King, when he received the award, that got Harold Bloom all liquored up. Don't blame me if you miss it.

----------------

I have never seen this room so closed minded. Sure, the Cat In The Hat is more commercial, sure it doesn't have the spirit of the book, but from the scenes I have seen, it looks quite funny; and Mike Myers looks just like the Cat come to life.

And the commercial tie-ins are rather lame, but you never complained about Spider Man or Lord Of The Rings. See the movie.

------------

Bush going to Iraq is going to stir up more terrorism. I can smell it brewing now. That prick should stay there.

John Thompson,

yeah, I agree! I think the ideal length for a novel is 250-350 pages, somewhere in that range. Gene Wolfe length, Jonathan Carroll length. Updike length. As much as I liked Jonathan Lethem's latest, I think it suffered because of its gigant-o size.

Anne Rice is awful. I haven't made it through any of her books. VIOLIN was the first book I ever gave up on and tossed into a trash can. I have nothing against her, and wish her no plagues or even minor annoyances, but goddamn she's a garbage writer.

Anne Rice has written a couple of readable books, but I gave up on her a long time ago.

Haven't read any Straub in a while.

Jay,
Thanks for that post--you brought Thanksgiving into correct focus. I am so happy for you that your Dad is going to be all right. I'll pray for speed in his recovery.

God bless you and yours--- you've blessed me.

Your friend,
Cindy

French Thanksgiving

France does not celebrate Thanksgiving.

But the local members of the Fugawi Nation (thinking of you Peg!) are going to fry up a few turkeys come Saturday, just to show ‘em how it’s done. Several males in the group have created a fry stand that NASA would be proud of, having apparently scrounged one of the main shuttle engines to use as a burner. We’re all set to fire it up; the women are laughing and the neighbors are edgy.

I spent my actual Thursday getting certified as a Michelin tire design engineer. Me vs. three experts reviewing nine months of supervised design work. I passed, after four hours of oral examination in French. I think this makes me the only professional ballet dancer ever to be certified in tire design. Now I begin six months doing design industrialization and optimisation work, at a high-end facility about 100 km from my family.

I’ve located an old servants quarters to stay in while I’m there. It has sheep.

Baaaa. Baaaa.

Finally, I am happy to announce that after two solid months of sick children, with the occasional sick grown-up tossed in for good measure, my house is certified bug free, except for the mouse, which we’re still trying to catch. From minor ailment to life threatening illness, it comes home time and time again that good health is the cornerstone of a happy life. Happy holiday weekend everyone.

John K: I read "lost boy lost girl" and give it high marks as well. Kind of ironic, since Straub's "Ghost Story" was the last horror novel I enjoyed as much. I loved how concise it was, telling a tight story in less than 300 pages. I think stories were much better written before big doorstop books of 500 pages or more became the norm.

I wonder how readers have the patience for these snoozefests. I recently sampled Anne Rice's Blackwood Farm, encouraged by some positive reviews. Let me tell you, brotha, it will be a long time before I get swayed again. Rice, more than any writer I've ever read, needs an editor. Pages go by and nothing, absolutely nada, happens. The dialogue is worse than an episode of a soap opera, and the characters have no reality, performing ridiculous actions that make no sense. The protagonist is supposed to be a contemporary eighteen-year-old but speaks like a seventeenth-century aristocrat.

I'm thankful we have writers like Straub who actually give a fuck.

JAY,

The Whitey vis-a-vis Redskins thread was a joke; yours certainly was not. I am so fucking glad your dad pulled through. Hope he can work on the causes to avoid any repeat of the crisis. Unless it proves too personal an issue maybe you can share with us how they diagnose it and treat it.

Jay,

I'm glad your dad is still on the planet. The experience must have been awful, but it sounds like it altered your perspective. Reading about it altered mine, too, and, I'm sure, that of other board members. Everything else looks petty next to love and the possibility of death, and rightly so.

For those of you tempted to see THE CAT IN THE HAT, so as to give yourselves more reasons to bitch, let me recommend instead Peter Straub's new novel lost boy lost girl.

I've found that years of reading has dampened the pleasure, as if I'm becoming immune to it and am only reading out of habit or boredom. It's only every five years or so that a book knocks me on my ass and reminds me what literature, at its best, can do. LOLITA was one of those books. MIND FIELDS was one. THE WIND-UP BIRD CHRONICLE was one. And lost boy lost girls is one, too; it's so brilliant and moving that I can't articulate what it did to me, except to say that I love it.

Has anyone else read it?

Hey Jay,
Glad to hear that your dad survived and is on the mend. A happy Thanksgiving indeed... and thank YOU for the reminder of what we should be grateful for. Give your dad our best, and take care of you, too.

Michael & Alia

A Simple Christalmighty, Jay:

I'm truly sorry, Jay. I hope he gets better. Your circumstance is eerily similar to what happened to us some months ago, but I'm truly glad yours had a better outcome. Take care of yourselves and your family, but mostly, take care of your dad.

Mine and Scotty's best, Mel

Thanksgiving
Hey, ya know what?

I don't give a damn about politics and history of Thanksgiving.

This morning, 'round 3am my dad nearly died. My mom found him pale and unresponsive after calling out in his sleep. He was carted to the hospital with a pulse rate of less than 40 and a BP high enough to super-soak the ER.

The family was called and our plans to sit around on our fat asses to drink, eat and complain about stupid shit changed to waiting in the ER all day for some guy to fix our broken dad.

Dad got better with the help of someone who felt it was more important to work than to sit at home and gorge, pondering the subtle meaning of the holiday. Thanksgiving is nothing political. It's not about who did what to whom. It's about thanking God or Fate or Happenstance for SURVIVING. Making it through and appreciating the truly important things in your life.

My dad's in the hospital. He's getting better. He's still living on the planet. My family came together today for the first time in a long long while and we shared a true Thanksgiving. We're thankful dad's still here. We're thankful mom had support through the day. We're thankful we didn't draw some stupid intern who lost the draw for working the holiday. We got a real cardiologist. A damn good one. And a damn good team of professionals.

So that's Thanksgiving. No football. No big fat meal. No false pretense of uniting Whitey and the Redskin. Just family and the realization of those things we possess in this world that are most important.

Happy Day.

Alex: I'm a Cherokee, which may cause some of you to say, "Ah, that explains it..." The thing about a lot of the tribes is that they really don't feel much community with people outside the tribe even if those people are also Indian. So I wasn't raised to think anything negative about Thanksgiving. For the Cherokee the ugly memories are reserved for "The Trail of Tears"..the forced removal from Georgia and the Carolinas to Oklahoma. If there's a historical figure that Cherokee people have bad feelings about it would be Andrew Jackson. My dad spit on his grave once when we were on vacation.

But as far as I can tell, a lot of Indian people aren't really interested in tribes other than their own, or at least tribes that are outside their region. So many tribes have had ugly histories with their neighbors that it's easy to see why.

I view Thanksgiving as a holiday that has negative roots, but has changed into something else over time so I don't have any problem with celebrating it. Hardly any of our holidays have much in common with their origins by this point anyway.

They have an official site at www.cherokee.org Check out the language section--it's always interesting.

Harry Chapin
Alex, I was a big fan of Harry Chapin in the 70's (my teens). I owned a complete collection of his 8-tracks (for you young-uns, 8-tracks were.....oh never mind) and he gave a concert just a few miles from my home in Waterloo Village, NJ. It was a fun concert, he spoke as much as he sang, and I recall purchasing a "Harry, It Sucks" tee-shirt that I held on to for years (the phrase coming from his live, not recorded, version of 30,000 Pounds Of Bananas."

Though much of his work can be considered corny today, I still feel the lyrics and music hold up.....and all of my 8-tracks have been converted to CD.

His death would have had a fairly large impact on my except for the fact that it happened about 2 months after my father died when I was 20. Instead of the impact, I more or less shrugged as celebrity deaths held nothing to the death of a dad.

It's strange, though. Just yesterday Debbie and I were discussing the affect that John Lennon's death had on many here, and how it had none on us (for me, I was more intrigued by the circumstances rather than the man who was killed), and I commented to her that the celebrity death that would have had an impact on me was Harry Chapin if it had happened at another time in my life. And now, here you are mentioning him.

Thanksgiving was his holiday, as you might imagine.

The celebrity death that really stuck with me for a long time was Isaac Asimov. It's still hard to comprehend how a body can soak in so much knowledge and good humor into it's every cell, and then all of that is lost, kaput, when the reaper visits. I couldn't shake his death for awhile, the way you shake others by awaiting the tribute news story, the tribute newspaper story, the tribute weekly news magazine story, and then filing the person away in the "no more new work to come" folder.

-TODD

Just wanted to second the rave reviews on The Waldorf Conference--it was a great show!

I didn't have as far to travel as Shane Shellenbarger, but had to leave at about the same time to make the drive down to Beverly Hills in a timely fashion. Of course the ticket vendors had lost my reservation (after forcing me to call, as their online service only allows you to buy a minimum of _2_ tickets...apparently buying 1 puts you in the same category as the animal that shows up stag to the arc) but there were still seats available. No doubt all the people staying home to watch the finale of "Joe Millionaire."

The play itself was very intriguing, particularly because I have only a layperson's knowledge of the events of that time. It did a good job of representing the different pressures that were put on all the various people involved to make them act the way they did. HE was wonderful as usual, and I thought Robert Picardo and Paul Mazursky were also excellent. And who doesn't love Edward Asner?

Afterwards, there was a silent auction of books/documents of the blacklist period, and light refreshments. Because I am the worst mingler in the world, I just grabbed some cookies and made the trek back--yay, free parking!

Lynn:
Good to see you and Bill! Sorry I missed you afterwards! HE will have to make more frequent appearances so we can meet up again.

Susan:
Thanks for giving me the chance to renew the Rabbit Hole again! I had been meaning to do it for awhile and just hadn't gotten around to it.

HE:
As usual, the only complaint I have concerning your performances is the long span of time between them. It was a grand job--we await the next one eagerly...

PEG: Whereas *I* just complain about being stuck here in America for all four months of the Christmas holidays ...

DEATHS WHICH HAVE MYSELF MOVED: Hmm. I was old enough to cry when I heard about Lennon, but didn't really know why. Nine years old isn't old enough to have had such a sociological impavct made upon you.

Obviously, the Challenger disaster (guess who was home "sick" from school and watching the teevee?) hit me hard. The others that hit me hardest in their time were Heinlein, Asimov, and, perhaps out of place but which still rocked me, Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Of course, in the long run, the death that still affects me the most (at least, that wasn't of a friend or relative or pet) is one I didn't even know about when it happened; one person whose work and life I didn't truly come to appreciate until years later: Harry Chapin.
Yeah, he wrote "Taxi" and "Cat's in the Cradle," but there was so much more. And sure, I love the man's songs, but few realize just what an IMPACT this grinning songwriter with the gravelly, only-fair voice had. He gave over two-hundred-odd shows a year--and out of those, morer than HALF were benefits, performed for free. He testified in front of Congress and in the White House on hunger issues, forcing many from both sides of the aisle to truly work for hunger relief years after he was gone. He almost single-handedly raised up the arts scene on his native Long Island, funding and getting funding for the Long Island Ballet, an arts center, and more. He helped start and helped inspire food banks all over the country. For the few hits he had, he appeared on talk shows, and, after singing, he'd talk, NOT pimping his albums, but talking about the needy. He co-founded World Hunger Year, as well as several other foundations and organizations which exist to this day, and his manager, Ken Kragen, was so converted by him to working for the needy that he was one of the main organizers of Live Aid, USA for Africa, and a lot of other high-profile benefit bashes. All this and more, and I only got to learn about the man and his work years afterward.

MICHAEL; COOKIE: I know, I know ... the Seuss abuse is horrible. But the books and the cartoons will endure even this. They simply can't NOT.
(But I DO have a Cat in the Hat clock--I just like it. I would NEVER have bought it if it weren't the REAL Cat; if it were a movie-based portrayal ...)

JOEL: If I may ask: What tribe(s)?

The reason I ask is both curiosity about you and because I want to get your feel on something: How much does Thanksgiving really play into the thoughts of some of the farther-flung tribes? Does a Chiricahua or Mescalero care about the Pilgrims? How about a Cherokee? Or has the Pilgrim become a symbol of the duplicitous settler?
Me, I LOVE Gluttony Day; it used to be my second-favorite holiday after Hallowe'en, and now that I'm deemed an adult, I gets the Day now beats the Eve, if barely. I couldn't feel guilty for it if I tried; my people came here only a hundred years ago, so ...

CHRIS BARKLEY: And I've been a finger's length away from that manuscript, here in Philly at the Rosenbach Museum.
(It was sold to them by Alice Liddell-Hargreaves herself)

Joel,

"save the apology and pass the turkey"

If it's all the same to you, Joel, I'd rather just hand you the apology. I'm like that at the dinner table.

The reason you don't gripe about Thanksgiving is because, bless our causes, you're well and properly assimilated. God knows the work it took...shovlin' your descendents into