Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Archive - 07/24/03 to 10/13/03

Unca Harlan's Art Deco Dining Pavilion

Of course I will say, in my own defense, that rather than participating in repetitive "ultramaroon gnashing," it was my reflection on Stephen King's words about how much he prioritizes "the truth inside the lie" that he sees as fiction, which shed new light for me on what he said about Kubrick. I know that many other movies were made of King's movies, some of them FAR, FAR worse than Kubrick's The Shining, that he never bothered to get so worked up over. It puzzled me, and I wondered about it, and still do. One would think he'd get mightily peeved about, say, Maximum Overdrive, or Pet Sematary, the movie. Ah well, I'm sure I won't get an answer, and I'm OK with that.

Ultramaroon signing of,
PAB

A delayed and only mildly toxic reaction.

"...after three fucking years of the same redundant opinions surfacing every time some arriviste drops by? Do tell me I've sufficed."

*Snort* Ah, truly you are becoming a citizen of the net. And yet I know this stage is FAR FAR from new to you. I just paid Mike Resnick a [cough cough] chunk of change for one of your 1955 SF Bulletins [because we are really down to the short strokes for Ellison ephemera out here in the wilds of Pennsyltucky] and as I immerse myself in the phenomena of fanzine culture from its letterhacks and incestuous reviews to it's feuds and sniping I see how absolutely nothing has changed except the speed with which one goes from star-struck newbie to burnt out GAFIA bound cynic. All the same steps and side steps only done in triple time. I luvs technology. - B.

BOOK FILM / FILM BOOK / AN INFORMED THEORY

Frank Capra made LOST HORIZON. It was a thousand times better than James Hilton's novel, on which the film was based. It was not JAMES HILTON'S "LOST HORIZON," it was FRANK CAPRA'S INTERPRETATION OF "LOST HORIZON."

Two different entities, in two different -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Orson Welles made THE TRIAL. It was shockingly different than Franz Kafka's novel, on which the film was based. It was not FRANZ KAFKA'S "THE TRIAL," it was ORSON WELLES'S INTERPRETATION OF "THE TRIAL."

Two different entities, in two different -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Stanly Kubrick made THE SHINING. While subjectively sucessful or unsuccessful on its face, it was markedly altered from Stephen King's novel, on which the film was based. It was not STEPHEN KING'S "THE SHINING," it was STANLEY KUBRICK'S INTERPRETATION OF "THE SHINING."

Two different entities, in two diferent -- only minimally similar -- formats.

Could it be more Film Lit 101 presented, for this seemingly endless ultramaroon gnashing to cease, after three fucking years of the same redundant opinions surfacing every time some arriviste drops by? Do tell me I've sufficed.

Bellicose? I say nay. Try welschmertzed-out.

Cheerily, Harlan

SHINING ON
I think the problem with both versions of THE SHINING was that the novel just didn't translate to film or television very well. There were too few characters, with a lot of the conflict being interior and not much action till the end.

The Kubrick version is draggy and as a whole I don't think it was a success, but the little things that work really work. The miniseries I don't remember very well, though they did correct some of the flaws King had mentioned in Kubrick's film--I agree with him that Nicholson was a poor casting decision for a character who is supposed to seem ordinary until the Overlook brings out his interior demons. With Nicholson you're expecting him to do something bad/crazy before he even gets to the hotel.

From what I've read about it, it sounds like Kubrick wanted to go in a different direction--King says Kubrick wanted a downer ending. I've always liked King's quote about Kubrick..."I think he wants to make a film that will hurt people."

Thanks for all the reading suggestions...

My wife is waiting to hear about the university job. It's down to her and one other person. Hopefully we'll find out sometime next week.

I've seen the size of Harlan's bookshelves, and there's nothing worth remarking upon -- they're the same size as any other bookshelves.

Unless you mean the number of them, of course.

PAB: Can't take credit for the link that "infomite" apprised you of; but I can direct you to the link below:

www.ireadpages.com/toc1.html

A terrific magazine about writers and writing (it featured a story on Harlan in March of 2002), the Nov/Dec issue features a darn good, in-depth piece about Stephen King and his Dark Tower series. You can't get to that piece online, but the magazine can be found at Walden Books, Borders and even Barnes
& Noble (now that "Book" went belly-up and their under-the-table monopoly bargain died with it).

Yours in information, the man.

Bellicose. My mistake, Harlan. Bellicose.

Who was the maroon who said Harlan's ALWAYS grumpy?

Brian, Crouch is a very good writer, but his jazz criticism is a bit too elitist for my tastes. And, his unfair disdain of rap is pretty stupid. Rock critic, Dave Marsh rightly calls Crouch a "cultural vigilante."

His Miles Davis essay made me so mad I almost tore his book up. Sure, late Miles is pretty muzak like, but Crouch even goes after Bitches Brew, one of the great fusions of rock and jazz ever. Him, and his butt boy, Wynton Marsalis only see jazz in a small spectrum. They like the dusty, museum like respect for jazz that has turned off younger fans from getting into the music. When you don't let a music evolve, you stifle it. I mean, is pop jazz mostly crap? Sure. But, when you also go after Ornette Coleman, you loose me.

Crouch really pissed me off when he went after Prince; my pick for the single greatest song writer in the last thirty years. Crouch seems to only notice the frills of Princes dress and lifestyle, and not the intricate beauty of the music.

Brian, you are better off reading Robert Christgau, or Dave Marsh, or hell, me. Lol.

-------------

Harlan, I'd hate to see the size of your book shelves. Wooop.

Who me? Nope. Lip buttoned securely and not lurching at all, at all.

Steve D: I'm a fan of Ursula K. LeGuin, but I never could get interested in Doris Lessing ever since I read The Golden Notebook, which I REALLY disliked. Slogged through. OK, I had to write a paper on it, and it was sloooow going. Maybe you can tell me, is that representative of her work? Can you recommend something better? (or if you think that one was good, then something DIFFERENT?)

Mr Dooner mentions Borges and LeGuin?
Steve,

Funny you should bring up these two. I just read "Tlon Uqbar" by Borges within the last two weeks. Also finished off "Orsinian Tales" by LeGuin. And Barney's literary nod to Bradbury brings it to 3 for me, with "S is for Space".

"Tlon Uqbar" is one of the very first Borges stories I read, and I found it fascinating. I start to understand the respect with which he is held on this board. The incredible detail with which he imbues the not only the fantastical realm of Tlon Uqbar but of the masquerade and it's societal impacts is overwhelming.

To paraphrase Barney's recent post, Bradbury we love for his prose and style. I just finished the "S is for Space" collection this week. I can swig down Bradbury all day long and still enjoy it and feel refreshed.

Borges, in comparison, I have to take in small doses; it is a literary espresso ristretto to Bradbury's daily cup-o-joe, for me. Concentrated. I have to pay much more attention, flipping back and forth in the pages to review the internal references, double and triple checking my interpretation of the latest passage.

LeGuin's "Orsinian Tales" lies somewhere between. I found the material more complex and the narrative more evocative than Bradbury but still more accessible than Borges. Le Guin fleshes out Orsinia in a collection of tales, whereas Borges puts forth Tlon Uqbar in a collection of pages. The tales themselves were of a different character than what I might expect based on her fantasy genre works.

What are your thoughts Steve?

Honda Accord

I can’t help sticking in a ballet oriented slant regarding writers that write to be popular. In ballet, George Balanchine was one of the greatest choeographers ever, and he commented at one point on what criteria he judged himself against. I think his (paraphrased) comment is interesting because it contrasts so strongly with the magnificently deep, varied, innovative and powerful work that he turned out during his long career.

‘We (dancers) are here for one ultimate reason: entertainment. E-N-T-E-R-T-A-I-N-M-E-N-T. What we do has to be good tonight. People have to like it TONIGHT. We are not in the business of making pictures that you can hang on a wall and wait 100 years for people to figure out how to like it. What we do exists only as we do it, and then it’s gone forever.’

The written word has an advantage over ballet, as it hangs around in physical form long after it’s created. It does have a chance of being rediscovered and cherished after it’s author has passed on, but who can argue with the professional writers that form their work to be marketeable as it is written? I was unhappy when Arthur C. Clarke started moving the form of his novels more toward the best-seller format, but I’m certainly not going to hold it against him; it’s how he makes his living.

Regarding criticism, it is probably impossible to develop a personal aesthetic if you don't establish some parameters of good and bad. This all ties in with guilty pleasures, believe it or not.

I was delighted to see Del Rey is republishing Robert E. Howard's original Conan stories. Even now, many decades after his death, his tales of the mighty-thewed barbarian are more ingenious and alive than almost all the heroic fantasy clogging the shelves these days.

HE: yes, it's true, I was just jerking your chain, good to see your knife's still sharp. Had to gig the moment, it's a flaw, I live with it...

Roman Castavet

Another name to add to the litany of Artists Commenting on Artists: Stanley Crouch, essayist, commentator, and formidable jazz drummer, is also an exceptional critic of jazz. Crouch tends to get lumped into the conservative heap, but he's far more a _writer_ than an ideologue, and even if you don't agree with his assessments of late-period Miles Davis, his writing is far more rewarding than confounding.

One more Asimov collection? Great. Now, if we could get Westlake to assemble his Dortmunder short-stories into a collection...

Okay, add another book to my list of books to be purchased this Xmas: "Thnking Machine".

But, guys, guys, guys, all this talk about King, Grisham, popular lit, et al. has distracted you from the one true literary event of the last two weeks: the publication of Isaac Asimov's final "Black Widowers" anthologies with a couple of unpublished tales and an introduction by our host, Monsieur Ellison himself, courtesy of Carroll and Graf. I got mine yesterday. Where's yours?

Alejandro

Infoman: Thanks for the link.

Harlan: Great essay. Thanks for The Secret.

Cindy: I got that snappy aphorism from a Bazooka Joe comic.

Frank: Hooray for you and YOUR snappy aphorism! And your last post; you never cease to cheer me.

Bill: It's Edgar ALLAN Poe. I forced my seventh graders to write it over and over until they got it right.

rich: Yes, The Shining miniseries was mediocre. Many of King's books do not translate well to the screen. Is it the shittiness of most screenplay writers, or is it something about the way King writes that is untranslatable? Anyway, the movies he makes in my mind are always going to be better than what I see on the screen, though I can't help but picture Scott Glenn as Roland.

Dan: Great! I'm only in the middle of The Wasteland, and with tons of grading to do, I don't know WHEN I'm going to get to The Wolves of the Calla, but you've piqued the hell out of my curiosity. Argh!

Buckling down for this alleged blizzard blowing our way, I remain,

PAB

Frabjous day calloo callay!!!!!!!!!!

Late Friday nite Fedex!!!!!

THE MODERN LIBRARY EDITION OF MY JACQUES FUTRELLE "THINKING MACHINE" STORIES IT TOOK ME A YEAR TO EDIT ... IT'S IN, IT'S HERE, I HAVE IT IN MY PAWS!!!!!! ADVANCE COPY, SOON ON YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD BOOKSTALLS!!!!!!

IT IS BEE-EE-AAAA-YEWWWW-TEE-FULL!!!!!!!!

Hoop dee doo dee, moses supposes his toeses are roses, but moses he knowses his toeses to be, so moses he knowses his toeses aren't roses, as moses supposes his toeses to be. A mose is a mose, a rose is a rose, hoop dee doo dee lal la la la la la etlatera............

Dear Ms. Mincer:

I am not "bashing" Grisham, I am criticizing the WORK of Grisham. I confess I find your naive comment more than passing disingenuous. It isn't as if one writer commenting on the craft or another is a new concept. Mark Twain on Bret Harte. Mark Twain on James Fenimore Cooper. Truman Capote on Gore Vidal. Gore Vidal on Truman Capote. Edmund Wilson on Nabokov. Sinclair Lewis on Dreiser. Hemingway on Gertrude Stein. And on and on, all the way back to Aeschylus and all the way forward to Tom Wolfe against John Updike. John Gardner savaged everyone (including me), from Vonnegut to Philip Roth. Writers review other writers. That's called The New York Times Book Review.
Who better to do it? You? I think not. Readers in general, have neither the depth or breadth of auctorial experience to talk with sense and evenhandedness (one hopes) about THE CRAFT. Readers are there to be entertained, and if they are, they love the books and the writers, even if the work itself is atrocious.
(Which brings us to the idiot argument of Elitism vs. Plebeianism. I always come down on both sides.)

Your seemingly wide-eyed astonishment that a writer would have a cogent -- however condign or harsh -- literary position on other writers suggests a level of out-of-the-loopness that I cannot bring myself to credit. You are posturing. Whyfor, I do not know. But it doesn't wash. And if you've never encountered musicians criticizing other musicians, I would have to believe that you never encountered an issue of Downbeat, Metronome, Rolling Stone, Crawdaddy, FM Review, or any of the other hundred or so magazines devoted to opinion and criticism of musicians, composers, arrangers, sidemen, promoters, et al. You've never read Heifetz on young violinists? Never read Mingus on white jazzmen, and on Norman Mailer's "The White Negro"? Never read Hentoff on Miles, or anything by Whitney Balliett? The libraries are JAMMED CHOCKABLOCK with volumes of critical essays BY musicians ABOUT musicians. You should read Aaron Copland sometime, if you want a demonstration of tonge-lashing, not mere "bashing."

And where have you been for the past three years? Did you miss Tom Wolfe referring to Irving, Mailer and Updike as "The 3 Stooges" as recently as 21 January 2000? Kee-rist, lady, were you raised in a creche?

Please put my mind at ease, and pop back in to say it was all tongue in cheek. Otherwise, I'll be forced to believe that you have moved into the western World only recently, having therebefore dwelt in an ice-rimed cave in the highest, remotest reaches of Bhutan.

And, Dorie, do not lurch forward to chastise me for my churlish response to this "innocent" posting. Sometimes a cigar is NOT just a cigar. I am in a S*W*E*L*L mood, and I'm being polite here. It's just that my bullshit level is clearly lower than yours.

Bewildered by sophomoric comments in this much-vaunted Internet Age of Widespread Information Availability, I remain,

Yr. pal, Harlan Ellison

AT THE MOUSE CIRCUS

Dear Aron:

This is one of my more abstract fantasies, but I'll give you this much: Others try to create for us, what they want our image to be. There is a Native American adage that goes something like "It is not what you choose to call me, it is the name I know myself to be." When I wrote this story (and you can look up the copyright date in the indicia of the book) such forcing of a superimposed persona was even more prevalent than today. Particularly for black men and men "of color" of all hues. And one would find, when one acted more to one's own image of oneself, and not to the template, that someone was always waiting to pillory you with "why are you behaving so badly?"
Meaning, of course, "why aren't you behaving the way I have the dream-image of you programmed?"

This is a story told in (pardon my grandiosity) subjective terminology and imagery, Joycean if you wish, but far less Finneganesque than the embarrassingly high-flown verbiage above suggests. It is about a black man of some personal promise, traveling in a white man's world, trying to scope out the parameters of his existence and destiny, while riding a road built by The Man, for The Man's convenience. It is, I suppose, to cap it up, a stranger-in-a-strange-land fable.

I have absolutely no idea if that helps either of you with acquiring the brew, but without going back and rereading that yarn -- written a serious chunk of time ago -- it is the best I can do from memory as to what pushed me to write it. Both Damon Knight and Robert Silverberg contended it's the best story I ever wrote. Me, I'm just happy it's still being read. It was, I'm told, years ahead of its time.

Yr. pal, Harlan

Dept. of things I'd like an answer to but am not losing sleep over:

In Harlan's introduction to the Tom Reamy collection SAN DIEGO LIGHTFOOT SUE AND OTHER STORIES he talks about the tendency of writers, many writers but not ALL writers, to have a trick or two that they do, and do so well that, well, all is forgiven. Tom Reamy had some really good ones.

[This is a brutal and perhaps even slightly skewed version of one talking point in a LONG introduction that I have not read in at least 15 years and does not do justice to either Harlan's intro. or the late great Reamy's prose style. Humor me.]

I've been thinking about that introduction and it dovetailed in my mind with the current thread with regard to King and various popular writers. Now we all have our favorites and our guilty pleasures. If you want to look at writers on this side of the ghetto wall I would offer these three as examples;

Bradbury, who doesn't do much by way of intricate plotting but that's ok because we can just dive into that lovely and unique prose style.

Vonnegut, who has a style that's so simple and journalistic that you have to marvel at the sophisticated humanistic agenda behind it and how he puts it forth.

King, who gave us THE GREEN MILE, DIFFERENT SEASONS and THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON so we forgive him TOMMYKNOCKERS and THE REGULATORS. Or pick your own.

And if these examples don't work for you there are 50 more. Cain, Rohmer, Ballard, Howard, Lovecraft, Stout. Writers who are not "balanced" but who have things that are they do so well when they are on their game that they more than justify their existence, they almost become their own genre/cottage industries.

Here, at last is my question. Has anybody here ever read anything by Barbara Michaels? Because I just do not get it. She, unless it's a psuedonym and I hope it isn't, has something like 30 books out there and I have no idea why this person is in print. None. Is there an INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE or HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER lurking in this body of work? I mean you can slam Clancy and Rice for any number of excesses and eccentricities but they have each knocked it out of the park at least once.

I picked up something by Michaels because Harry Houdini was one of the main characters with the intention of giving it to Tim Richmond because Tim loves Houdini and the first three pages were so bad I thought it was a mistake. Skipped around. More of the same. I mean this was some serious bad writing. Yes Virginia, worse than this post. Now when I see one of her books I check out a page or two just to see if that was a fluke. Not so far and I've scanned about ten. NY Times best seller. 30+ books. Millions sold. What did this person do right to justify this kind of career? Is there a casting couch for bad writers? Could I sleep with someone and get this gig? 'Cause if that's the case I'm sleepy now.

And of course it takes Harlan to show us that Chaos Theory is really a postmod, amped-up version of Dewey's Instrumentalism. In 500 words no less!

As always Harlan, Wicked Stellah writin!

With Respect from Bahston,
Mark

I just read and enjoyed Harlan's essay at the Butterfly Effect site. Kudos to Harlan and Frank. I'd also recommend the story by Ed Bryant while you're over there.

Chuck

Cortazar? Borges? Mahfouz? Oe?

Hey has anybody here read Julio Cortazar's Blow Up and Other Stories? How about "The Aleph" or "Tlon Uqbar" by Borges? What about "Zaabalawi" by Naguib Mahfouz? Or "Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness" by Kenzaburo Oe?

Does anybody read Doris Lessing or Ursula K. Le Guin?

I ask this only because my eyes will bleed if I have to read any more on Grisham and King (and I love King).

Steve Dooner

Steve Dooner

Wolves of the Calla
I know several of us are reading or have finished Dark Tower 5: Wolves of the Calla. For those who haven’t, I just wanted to mention that King does something truly surprising at the end that will probably come as a big shock. Don’t worry, I haven’t spoiled anything because you will NOT see it coming. But had I not read any of the Dark Tower books and happened to find out what King does at the end of Wolves, I would’ve run out and read all the volumes posthaste! Truly an important moment in the Dark Tower mythology (if not most of King’s milieu since so many of his stories tangentially relate to the mythos).
Dan

I almost shit my pants. My little bit of spew on Chaos Theory, is the last sentence in Harlan's piece. You worked that one in quite well Harlan. And your point about the subject was dead on: no chance, no buggaboo's in the night; you either walk forward and explore, or you get stuck in the swamp.

You all know I had to tell my family and friends about Harlan cribbing from me. They are so proud. They might even talk to me, the next time they see me.

I needed the self esteem boost all. Now back to the shadows in the closet.

------------------

I told you all before that most art is subjective; most notably in music. You can always find two very smart individuals who will debate about the merits of various musicians or music forms. All this is murdering a dust mote--kind of meaningless.

Sure, classical takes the most dedication and practice on your instrument to play, but actually writing like Stravinsky is the hard part.

Sure, pop seems simplistic, but when was the last time a song writer wrote a ditty as great as the Stones Satisfaction?

Hell, in its own way, a band like Radiohead, at their best, are as deep as the best symphony or jazz. Sure, it is easier to play, but it is not just about that. It is the vast mystery of the heart, that sings out.

I won't expound on rap, but it is odd, some young black dude, who seems illiterate, can memorize all these lines, and spit them back in perfect cadance. You should see lyric books to most rap albums. Shit's like War And Peace in length. There is creative fire there; you can say it is misused, but it is used.

You cannot compare Jimmy Page with Mozart, or Eddie Van Halen with Gershwin, but they all had the same dedication to their craft. Their music came from a private, holy place.

Esthetic truisms still apply: Sure, Kenny G. is shit compared to Duke Ellington, but what about Frank Zappa compared to Morricone? There, it just works with taste. No way you can prove either one is better, or worse. I would prefer Morricone, but that's me.

---------

I liked Runaway Jury, the movie, but look at the plot, Harlan's rant about Grisham is obvious in that film: Yea, there is a secret cabal that controls how Jury's are selected; and they watch the trial on plasma televisions in a bunker. Nutty, black helicopter crap. Thankfully, the film was at least fun. But, who would want to slog through the book?

Actually, I think THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE could be a decent remake if it were done right [which rarely happens.] I could see it updated to current times, with Al-Quaida instead of the communists. But....I'm sure they'll just turn it into a mundane action film.

Captain of Fate

HARLAN,

Extremely cool essay.

The Hollywood Renaissance
Put away your reading because the geniuses of Hollywood are at work on a new watershed movie, truly long overdue...

a remake of MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.

Yeah. We need that. We need it real bad.

Cookie: good observations, but a more telling rendition is: How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb? A: 25. One to do it and 24 others to stand around and say "I could do that". Gotta go, sounds like Rush is on the dope again.

Dark Tower Tick-Tock Man...
I noticed, when I reread the DARK TOWER books over the summer, that the Tick-Tock Man lives in a city where a crazed cumputer has taken over. Considering how many other literary references (Shardik, Edgar Allen Poe when Jake goes into the house, etc) there are throughout the DARK TOWER books, I'm convinced this is a nod to Mr. Ellison.

Bill

I am going to read Anthony Boucher, John Dickson Carr and Ellin now.

Hmmmm,
I stand by my assessment of A Time To Kill--while acknowledging that you are correct in your assessment of the remainder of his body of work. If only he'd stretch to use the amazing length of stride he exhibited in A Time To Kill. Sadly, I'd say he's learned ( to the detrement of his art and our misfortune) that he has the ability to spin straw into gold without the effort or emotion it would take to build another book like A Time To Kill. I guess you'd say I'm a fan of A Time To Kill.

Can y'all tell?
:)
Cindy
>

Hey Paula!
A broken clock is right twice a day? I LOVE THAT!!! It's so much classier than what we say down here, " even a blind hog'll find an acorn."
You are infinitely more qualified to judge than I, but do you not think A Time To Kill was a beautiful thing? Lofty even?

yer pal,
:)
Cindy


Hey Rita?
That looked like a slammin' to you?
You need to hang around here awhile.You don't KNOW what a slamming is until you've seen the man work one. He'll put something on you that BABO won't take off. When he's ACTUALLY slammin' somebody you'll find out what it's like to try to read a computer monitor through your fingers. That Grisham stuff was quite sweet.

;)
Cindy

Chaotic Ellison
Go now,

http://www.butterflyeffectmovie.com/

Read, enjoy.

Then click on the "Complete Chaos" link, where they say: "The irascible Harlan Ellison declares, “There is no such thing as chance, only patterns we do not understand.” Do you agree? Disagree? Here’s your chance to sound off."

Odd that this should come up:

I'd recommend a book I've just finished: "Literary Feuds", by Anthony Arthur. It's a very good look at the nature of literary rivalries, from Mark Twain's spat with Bret Harte to the running fight between Gore Vidal and Truman Capote. Fortunately, Arthur doesn't stoop to gossipy sniggering about the antagonists, rather keeping the tone high-brow, allowing the bon mots and savage criticisms of one artist to another show how well an intellect can defend itself while under critical attack.

I loved the Vidal quote on the death of Capote: "A good career move".

Back to work, Melissa

oh yeah...
pardon my previous generalizations. While I can't cite a specific paper, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you mention Thomas Kinkaide to a visual artist of any stripe you'll get an earful. He is the Kenny G of that world, despised and feared.

what's wrong with bashing?
Re: rita's comment. Cookie's got it - artists do this to one another all the time. Music's been mentioned, but think visual artists, too: abstractionist vs. realists, commercial artists vs. folk art, college art students vs. well... anyone. None of these groups are particularly kind to one another. If you're feeling generous you can label what they do 'criticism', but IMHO that requires more openmindedness than is usually present.

Can't we all just get along? No. Defense of subjective qualities becomes more intense when any mook can pick up a brush, a pen, a mic, (etc) and call themselves an artist. The lovey-dovey bits of me say there's nothing wrong with this freedom, but then I'm thinking of hobby art. That's great. But when dollar values start getting assigned, when the media is sown to the masses, then there needs to be a conscious review by the Good and the Wise (all present here, no doubt) of the aesthetics that are being developed. And if something can't justify itself, then take the piss out of it and feel good about doing it.

Because, hell, it's not going to keep them from getting published, displayed, or produced.

ps, cookie: ayuh. I was up north of you, around Union; then the Bangor area, deah. Now I'm just From Away.

PAB,
"[The Shining] is not a movie of Stephen King's book."
I agree wholeheartedly and I think King's feelings that the movie didn't do the book justice was the catalyst for wanting to do the so-so miniseries.

And your DARK TOWER question was one I was thinking about, too, when I was re-reading prior to the fifth volume of the series. Enquiring minds want to know.

Rita,
I saw no "bashing" in HE's comments concerning Grisham (but, maybe that's because I share the same opinion, so whatta I know?) and I'm a little perplexed concerning your comments about "not used to seeing writers slamming other living writers"??? Pick up the NY Times Review of Books. Go to a writer's conference. Or a workshop. Or, the most recent National Book Awards event where Hazard dissed King. And I guarantee you that there is a violinist out there who fuckin' hates Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix and would gladly tell the world if someone really cared what a violinist thought about a guitar player. Frank! Tell Rita about the shit that goes on in the hip-hop world.

And Turow is a much better writer than Grisham. As far as lawyers go. Though, I guess if you like the non-fiction lawyers, Posner would be the way to go.

OOOOOHHH-OOOOOHHH, ATC, you mentioned a short story you read by Clark being ridiculous...I recently read something by her in some anthology and it was the worst worst piece of shit crap fucking lazy-ass writing I had seen in awhile. I had never read anything by her until then and I find no reason to seek out her other work. It was about some knucklehead living in the apartment or condo or townhouse or something next door to a lady and he breaks into her laundry room and that was his MO for doing this serial killing shit....Ohmigod, utter waste of time. (I'm very angry about this, because it was in a Block anthology and I would've thought they could've come up with something better. Maybe Block lost a bet or something.)

Rita said:"I don't see parallels in the other arts, like violinists slamming rock guitar players, etc."

You apparently missed Pat Metheny's scathing criticism of Kenny G. which appeared a couple of years ago. It is still circulated widely among jazz musicians. Of course, Metheny was preaching to the choir.

Music is one of the worst professions for bad-mouthing. How many sopranos does it take to screw in a light-bulb? Ten: one to screw in the lightbulb and 9 to claim they could have done it better.And yes, musicians of one genre will make disparaging remarks about music of another genre. All the time. Every day. Just hang out on a couple music BBS's and you'll definitely see it.

BTW: I don't think it's "wrong" to criticize another artist's (or writer's) work even if they do the same kind of work. Yes, artists should support each other, but not at the expense of accepting all works as equally worthy.

" Grisham may write badly, but he brings people into the bookstores, so it seems that all writers with books on the shelves can indirectly profit from his success."

This is like saying that people who walk into a record store to buy Kid Rock's latest might, just might, pick up a recording of Bill Evans or of something like the Golijov Passion just because Kid Rock got them into the store. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it's highly unlikely.

Not saying that Grisham shouldn't write or that folks shouldn't enjoy his books if they do. But I think it's fine to point out reasons *why* one might *not* enjoy (or even respect) Grisham's writing. Different strokes for different folks---including the patron author here. He's welcome to his informed opinion and others are free to disagree. But I personally disagree that it's wrong for artists to "bash" another of their trade. The "bashing" is often a mere expression of how one artist would never want to write, play, paint or dance in the "bashee's" manner.

King's Speech
Okay, I read King's speech, and he does not praise Clancy or Mary Higgins Clark at all; the sentence in question scolds those members of the lit establishment who make a point of saying they never read popular folks like same. (Incidentally, I recall enjoying a couple of Clark's earliest books, a long long time ago...though a short story I recently heard by her was the most ridiculous thing I'd encountered in many years.)

His actual praise goes to "Elmore Leonard, Peter Straub, Nora Lofts, Jack Ketchum, whose real name is Dallas Mayr, Jodi Picoult, Greg Iles, John Grisham, Dennis Lehane, Michael Connolly, Pete Hamill and a dozen more."

A perfectly respectable group, even if you disagree with one or two names on it. (Grisham in particular seems to push the revulsion buttons.) Certainly, Lehane's MYSTIC RIVER and Ketchum's terrifying THE GIRL NEXT DOOR have a lot more to say about what drives the human animal than the average book about philandering college professors or depressed suburbanites bemoaning the pointlesness of everything while wandering through supermarket aisles. A-TC

Just read the King speech and found it pretty admirable. I was happy to see he gave just due to Peter Straub and Jack Ketchum.

David Hemmings!

Blow Up was a important film for me. I am thus saddened by the loss of David Hemmings.

Also, if you guys really want to read something other than Grisham, read the stories of Cortazar.

Steve Dooner

Stanley Ellin / King
Have never gotten around to the mystery novels of Boucher or Carr, but Ellin is terrific. And for a prime example of a dangerous vision, check out Ellin's THE DARK FANTASTIC. A hefty portion of that book is written from the point of view of Charles Witter Kirwan; dying of cancer and blaming the blacks for the deterioration of the school in which he taught, the neighborhood in which he lives, and the building next door which he owns and rents to them, he intends to blow up the building with himself and most of the tenants inside it. Unlike Archie Bunker, who proved himself an idiot every time he opened his mouth, Kirwan is intelligent, articulate, and horrifyingly persuasive -- persuasive to the point where you think "Yeah, I can see that -- Jesus, what am I thinking?" while reading his portions. Scary as hell.

And his short fiction is a must.

One caveat--Ellin's last novel, VERY OLD MONEY, was reprinted in paperback and the reprint I saw left off the last page of the original hardcover source. It's just a couple of paragraphs, but those paragraphs give a nice ironic chill to the story and you don't want to be without them. If you start scrounging for Ellin in the used book shops, look for the hardcover on this one. Or buy the paperback, borrow the hardbound from the library, and copy the last paragraphs into your pb.

King's speech -- struck me when I saw it that Grisham, Clancy & Clark were used more as examples of writers dismissed because they sell rather than as high points of contemporary popular lit. He did include Grisham in his later list with Straub & Leonard et. al., though, and as I recall he referred to Grisham in ON WRITING, saying that Grisham knew his law firm backgrounds so well that you had to believe them.

And it was great to see the tribute paid to Tabitha King; she's a terrific writer herself, and it's a shame that so much of her work is out of print and that her novel THE SKY IN THE WATER (listed in SK's ON WRITING appendix) hasn't found a publisher yet.

Bests to all,

--tr

writers bashing writers
Interesting comments by Mr. Ellison on Grisham...I'm not used to seeing writers slamming other living writers. I don't see parallels in the other arts, like violinists slamming rock guitar players, etc.

Grisham may write badly, but he brings people into the bookstores, so it seems that all writers with books on the shelves can indirectly profit from his success.

Dorie: Didn't mean to ignore your question yesterday. I am from Ithaca and currently in Ithaca, but wasn't posting from Ithaca until September of this year. cookie is from Ithaca. Does that answer your question?

rich: Thanks for the link to King's speech.

::dons asbestos suit::

I wonder if the reason why he hated Kubrick's rendition of The Shining was the fact that it wasn't "true." Jack wasn't mad from Day One, only vulnerable to madness, and because of changes in the story, Kubrick's version doesn't unfold in the horrifyingly organic way that King's novel does. That's been my point all along, and though I love Kubrick's movie, it's not a movie of Stephen King's book.

::removes asbestos suit, hopes rabid Kubrickites have been taking their medication::

It's also wonderful to see how much he loves his wife.

Is Peter Straub really not considered "literary fiction"? At his best he's as anyone. Go out and read his books and see if I'm not right. Is horror just not considered a "literary" genre? Do you have to be dead to be taken into the canon as a horror writer?

DARK TOWER QUESTION: Did King borrow The Tick-Tock Man from Harlan? Did they ever discuss it?

Frank: I enjoyed Secretary enormously, but the part where the media got involved strained my willing suspension of disbelief. In spite of that, huge thumbs up.

Cindy: I read A TIME TO KILL and enjoyed it, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. However, you and Mr. King are more than entitled to your opinions.

PAB

Various
Add my positive vote to "Secretary," but only if you "get" the ending, which is not quite as single-mindedly happy as some of its audiences believe; there's a subtle point to the final, complex expression on Gyllenhaal's face.

I get all the Grisham and Clancy I want from the movies based on their books; I know that's a mug's game (as most of the movies based on Westlake wouldn't tempt me to investigate that worthy, either), but I honestly don't get any sense of there being any more "there" there. When my thriller-buying dollar can get me Stephen Hunter (!), or Michael Marshall, or Greg Rucka, or whatsisface the guy who wrote THE HANCOCK BOYS and THE CARETAKER, or Ken Follett, or Ed McBain, or Tim Dorsey or Carl Hiassen, or any number of non-brand names providing fascinating work, the works of Grisham and Clancy and Cussler, which I've absorbed by mass-media osmosis, just don't attract. I will confess to wanting to read Grisham's A PAINTED HOUSE, but only because it's reputedly a very non-formula book for him, and I'm curious over whether he pulled it off.

Secretary
I second Deb's thumb's down on Secretary, and not just because she is my lovely spouse. I looked forward to this movie for quite awhile, but when I finally saw it I was disappointed by the small-movie hype. Sometimes I think reviewers just want to love a small film with a quirky premise to look cool to peers and readers/viewers.

Spader was good. The movie did not inspire.

-TODD

Dear Harlan,

Would you mind settling a bet between a friend and I? It concerns your short story from Deathbird Stories called "At The Mouse Circus." We have a six-pack of Sam Adams riding on the wager. I have my own idea as to what the story is about and my other friend has her's. Would you mind giving just a brief explanation? In fear of swaying your potential reply to my side, I'll keep my explication to myself. Something succinct will suffice. Just a clue, even, in the right direction as to the story's origin and/or theme would be greatly appreciated .
There's great scene in Annie Hall where Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are standing in line at a theater and this guy behind them is "loudly pontificating" about Marshall McLuhan (sp?) and really annoying Woody's character. He thinks the guy is full of shit and wishes he would shut up. You know the rest, Woody pulls the real Mcluhan out from behind a poster where the educator begins to berate the poor guy for knowing absolutely nothing about his work.
It is in light of this scene I make this humble request: be my Mcluhan. Will ya'? Huh Unca' Harlan? Puhleeeez...

Sincerely,
Aron

Grisham: impossible plots, jerry-rigged logic, forced incidents, flat characterization, mundane and bucolic writing, lack of style, mid-section troughs, narrative holes ignored or so blatant that the astute reader could maneuver a Peterbilt through them, conclusions advertised halfway through, contemptible stereotyping, lazy while at the same time arrogant dependance on the low esteem and presumed intellect of his core audience.

I am not a fan.

I wish him no ill, but he isn't a carbuncle on the slowest novel Stanley Ellin ever wrote. Talk to me no "quality of Grisham" till you have read the mystery novels of Anthony Boucher, John Dickson Carr and Ellin, the master of them all. Your taste will realign itself sans screed from me.

Respectfully, Harlan

DAVID (and others): I second (or rather third) the recommendation for "Secretary" (and Glyllenhall's acting). And while talking fine film efforts, on the small screen, Joss Whedon's "Buffy the Vampire" series is fuckin' terrific. I know I'm a Johnny-come-lately for only just figuring this out (after buying the DVD sets in the past year or so), but man...fantastic writing, excellent acting, who could ask for more? The episode entitled "The Body" (which I just watched last night) from the 5th series DVD set is one of the finest tele (or screen)plays to deal with the subject of death and the loss people feel. When Emma Caulfield (as Anya) did her short ramble during the middle of the show, I actually got choked up (something in my eye, I swear). Whedon is an excellent writer and damn fine director. Can't wait to see what he does next (too bad "Firefly" wasn't given a snowball's chance).
-- Yours in opinion this time, the man

Secretary

I'm with Frank in recommending "Secretary," which I saw on the big screen with my wife. A nifty little black comedy. Maggie Gyllenhaal turns in an astounding performance.

***Secretary???????????????? You gotta be joking Frank. Swing over to the other place.

Faisel, I know about Operation Mongoose and the like; but Castro should be judged equally by the left, as he is judged, or misjudged by the loony right.

Jailing of writers just should not be tolerated.

What they need to do is overthrow Casto and put in a true socialist or anarchist government. A real people's party.

The IMF and the neo-liberal goons will salivate once Castro dies. If he ever dies. He may be a demon.

------------

Angels In America is coming soon to HBO; with an all star cast, that includes Al Pacino, as Roy Cohn.

Looks amazing. Two thumbs up on Ebert and the chimp.

-----------

If you have never seen it, go rent Secretary; a wicked little black comedy about a woman who gets a job as a secretary, only to find out that the boss is into sado masochism. She turns into his slave, and it ends up with a pretty astounding ending. The premise seems base, but for some reason, it works. It is a deft look at love on the dark margins. Great.

Elijah: I totally relate to your comments about King being close to your heart as someone who grew up in Maine. Yeah, IT was particularly creepy---especially the part about the Chinese restaurant by the Bangor Mall. I've eaten there many times (but there were no eyeballs in the fortune cookies). Anyway, I *do* recognize many of the places. Everybody seems to hate TOMMYKNOCKERS (which I didn't hate so much), but I got a thrill out of the fact that rtes. 202 and 9 were mentioned because that's in my hometown (Albion) so all the time I'm reading the book, I'm thinking of aliens landing near my hometown!

And yes, King's example of success after initial struggle is something that inspires and gives hope to the little girl who grew up poor in the boonies of Maine: with talent and effort and support, it IS possible to achieve something beyond ending up in the paper mill or driving a wood truck or operating a skidder.

Thanks for the link to the text of the speech (now that I'm over on this window, I forget exactly who it was who provided the link. Forgive me for forgetting, but thanks for the link). I'll go check it out at my leisure.

I have read [or at least listened to on tape] a lot of Grisham. I don't remember A TIME TO KILL very well, though I think it played to the emotions more with its subject matter [race, rape, and revenge] That doesn't necessarily make Grisham a good writer, it just means he's able to use disturbing subject matter to manipulate the reader. He is at least good enough that I never gave up on any of his books, and that's something.

The problem is that Grisham writes about what is supposedly the "real" world, but it seems less real than the world that Stephen King writes about. I've had a lot harder time suspending disbelief with Grisham than I ever have with King. King's bloodsucking vampires seem more realistic than Grisham's bloodsucking attorneys. And I think that's a sign that Grisham isn't a very good writer, where King is a great writer. Grisham's writing just doesn't ring true.

Several items of mild interest.

First of all, American liberals have no reason to apologize for Cuba. For one thing, liberals were the ones who'd started that covert war against Castro: remember that just about all of those harebrained schemes to take the Beard out came out of the Kennedy and Eisenhower administrations, neither of which could be considered terribly leftist or even right-wing.

And the issue of comparative misery is a tricky one to play. For one thing, we don't really know how bad Cuba'd be if Castro had failed. The best evidence is that it'd be another death-squad hellhole that'd enjoyed lots of U.S. funding, but that's not exactly certain. And if we're going to say that Cuba's better off under Castro than the alternative, then we may have to consider that the invasion of Iraq may have been an improvement over Saddam Hussein.

Not much to add about Stephen King, either. Lovely speech that did get some whisper-down-the-lane distortion. I ought to mention one thing. King mentioned that there were people who said with pride that they hadn't read anything by certain popular writers, like John Grisham. I haven't read anything by any of those writers. But that's not because I think they're bad writers. (After all, if I haven't read them, how would I know?) It's because I just have too many other things on my plate. For the record, I haven't managed to read any of Martin Amis's novels, and Marcel Prous still remains Unread by Brian, so it's not a matter of snobbery. But I really ought to give Grisham a try. For all I know, the guy could be John D. MacDonald reborn.

Actually, one thing I like about a lot of "popular fiction" writers is that they are more likely to describe how things work in the Real World. Take John D. MacDonald's _Condomunium_, which was a best-seller back in the 1970s. About a quarter into the book, MacDonald follows a retired engineer who examins the foundations of his high-rise condo, and finds all kinds of flaws and sub-par materials. MacDonald manages to give the reader a sense of the actual, technical issues involved with construction... which adds a _lot_ to the growing terror of the approaching hurricane.

No Frank,
Not surprised a whit. The bead on your "welded" mind is utterly faux. You've insight that can not co-exist with unfounded dogma. So, while your ship lists very seriously (and oft-times disturbingly )to port I've seen the gentle swell of logic tip you starboard.

There's vast hope for you mine darklink.
;)
Cindy



Jay,
You hang in there-- you know what you have in you and it won't be long that others will know it too.

Cindy


AS FOR THOSE OF YOU who feel comfortable disregarding Grisham, who do not not see him as a gifted man capable of producing books of consequence-- go find a copy of A Time To Kill, then come back here and tell me the man can't write. The quality of this book calls you either ill informed or devoid of the ability to know a work of art when it smacks you up side the head ( as we say in the South).

John Grisham has produced at least ( this ) one pearl of literary brilliance and I fuckin' DEFY you to say otherwise.

Yeah, THAT'S a gauntlet.
:)

Cindy

King, but also with regard to Ellison...
That's a neat speech, many thanks to rich for supplying the link that let me read it. Steven King is a hometown hero for me: I grew up in Maine and attended the high school at which he had taught, though I was a dozen-plus years too late to be in any class of his.

Because of the geographic closeness, I tend to read his stories trying to pick out influences I recognize. (yah yah, I just read them for pleasure the first time through, but I'm a chronic re-reader, blah blah blah) Some instances are simple enough - "It" has all the corny fun of a Decoder Ring if you're familiar with the Bangor, ME area. And many common traits of his main characters correlate with my apocryphal knowledge of Mr. King hisself.

But whether it's an escape into the improbable and ghoulish or a more reasonably character driven bits and I keep coming back to a couple questions. How much is drawn from personal experience? How much is purely invented? It's embarassing to say that I do this to justify burgeoning habits in my own writing when I'm uncertain of their virtue ...but that's exactly what's happening. I'm not interested in becoming a mimic, but I find myself wondering if I'm slacking off when I should be flexing muscles of recall or, alternately, invention. Do writers lie by nature, or is it all metaphor and reinterpretation of the day-to-day realities? If you don't want to sully the board with a reply, please consider yourself invited to email a response directly to: elijahnewton "at" yahoo.com

King's Speech
King's speech struck me for a very different reason.

It restored hope. His pre-Carrie situation mirrors my own. I know of his battle with alcoholism and the rage and frustration of living hand-to-mouth while trying to hold on to what most people regard as a useless pastime or fantasy. While I can't say that I'm slave to alcohol, I see the same path before me. These days, it's Hope and Struggle.

Give it up and you die.

And it reminds me how much I owe to Pam for surviving these days, helping me secure these aspirations in the way some cling to their faith in God.

Here is what King said during his NBA award speech (no, not the speech concerning the Celtics trade earlier this season---the other NBA speech):

http://www.nationalbook.org/nbaacceptspeech_sking.html

And if you never thought King was a quote good guy unquote, this speech should dispel that notion. Some very good lines in that speech and the speech really is about one thing and one thing only: giving his wife her due. Yes, he does mention the three-headed dog Cerberus (Grisham, Clancy, Clark), but makes no mention of their quality---except he does mention Grisham along with some others as far as quality goes. But, Grisham is King's opinion and although I don't like Grisham I think one of the best and worst novels I've ever read was The Pelican Brief.

King does single out Ketchum and Straub. You'll see the others as you read (or, listen or watch) the speech.

- -
King did use some bad examples in his speech, I believe, but his overall point, that the critical establishment penalizes some writers simply for being popular and accessible, remains sound. As I believe I've said here before, the John Irving / John Updike attack on Tom Wolfe was downright disgusting.

There are thriller writers, right now, whose line-by-line prose, and whose portrayal of the world, is better than any of the self-absorbed, no-plot literary types.

Although there are many, many other possible examples -- I am specifically thinking of THE AX by Donald Westlake.

John K.:

"Repent Harlequin, Said The Tick-Tock Man" is another good example of a story that doesn't age because it addresses fundamental human concerns. That is why it is constantly in print.

John Thompson,

I guess the syntax more than anything threw me off.

Some popular novels last. Dickens was huge. Twain. Others. You could argue that their works didn't fit the cultural norms, or whatever, and you may be right about that.

But popularity isn't a good litmus test either way. Some popular things suck, some unpopular things rule. And vv.

John K: I don't understand why you found it strange that popular novels that are too much of their time tend not to last. Look at PEYTON PLACE or the works of Edgar Wallace. The works that have lasted transcend their time period. As much as I love most of Stephen King's work, he often makes references to things future generations will only puzzle over (Take THE DARK HALF, for instance, which mentions Axl Rose; if history is kind, and I think it will be in this respect, no one will remember this talentless screecher.)

I'm guessing it's as John K said, that King wants to encourage the "academic writing" establishment to not insulate themselves from the world of popular fiction, but I'm basing that solely on what people have said here about his speech.

Never really been able to get into King's DARK TOWER series--perhaps I should try it again. I lost patience with it when he released one volume that was just a big, long flashback, and if I remember right at the end of the book they were in the exact same situation they'd been in at the beginning. They're better than King's forays into science fiction [assuming you consider THE TOMMYKNOCKERS and DREAMCATCHER as such] but it hasn't worked for me so far.

My favorites are probably his short stories...love his non-fiction writing as well. There are more than a few of his novels that I love too, but my wife is saying I gotta go now...

Why do folks thing King mentioned Grisham, Clark, et al? Does he really think they are his peers and deserve greater recognition as artists?

HE mentioned Peter Straub--a favorite of mine with a new book out. Anyone read _lost boy/lost girl_ yet? I am excited to get my hands on it, as it has Tim Underhill and Tom Pasmore in it and takes place in the dreaded Millhaven.

FAQ: Great to see your name!

PAB

Cuba
Frank,

Cuba's history of human rights violations is not as grim as those sanctioned by the Goverment of other South American neighbours (El Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua) whose corrupt goverments have enjoyed strong support from successive US administrations (well, apart from Nicaragua when Oliver's Army murdurously came a calling while the Sandanista's were in charge...).

This is not to justify Cuba's human rights history after the revolution (i.e. towards Castros political opponents like the writer you mentioned, homosexuals, AIDS victims, etc) but tarring all "liberals" as defenders of Castro is disingenious. After my first visit there, I feel that a lot of the human rights issues could have been resolved had the US sanctions not been implemented.

Believe me, it could easily have become a complete tolitarian Police state like Saudi Arabia, its to the people's credit that it hasn't. Unfortunately, continued US goverment and intelligence activity could push it towards that route.

Incidentally, the father of a friend of mine was a diplomat for the Ugandan goverment and he had strong personal relations with Castro. I was told about Castro's support for African counteries that wanted to become more self reliant then be forever in debt to European/US power and him sending over troops to stop the South Africans crossing over into Angola.

I think Chomsky talked about this in a recent interview in Counterpunch.

FAQ

castro
Gimmie a break, Frank. Liberals don't apologize for Castro; they just point out that the repression there is a lot less than in US-supported countries. In Nicaragua they'd blow up your press. In El Salvador they'd leave a head on a pike as a warning. Putting people in jail for dissent is shouldn't be foreign to anyone who knows American History. Pretending all repression is the same is to ignore the serious human consequences of foreign policy.

At the same book award King was at, this writer from Cuba talked about how there are writers who are jailed in Cuba for merely writing a book. If this is true, then some of the hapless liberal types who say good things about Castro have a bit of explaining to do.

See Cindy, I have my moments. Shocked?

No Todd, I haven't embraced the dark side just yet.

fabulous fantasy

> Bradbury said that he was going to the moon, Mars and
> the stars and would she like to come along and she said
> yes. And that was the greatest yes Bradbury ever received.

Not only that, but he kept his promise!

I read my first Philip Pullman book last weekend -- _The Golden Compass_ -- and was quite blown away.

***In " Electronic Gaming Monthly " they were reviewing the game, Legacy of Kain: Defiance. The subtitle was " I have no jaw, and I must scream. " In relation to the game, you'd have to be a gamer to get it. But never the less, a neat play on a Ellison title. Never would have expected that in such a magazine!

Ben: Now that you have The Nightmare Before Christmas on DVD, try watching it with the language option set to French: it becomes this bizarre existential art house film and it's fall-on-the-floor hilarious.

Best,
Mark

This is Halloween, this is Halloween, Halloween, Halloween...
I purchased THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS on DVD yesterday, in order to have a properly "Holiday-orientated" movie to celebrate on Christmas day. Although I usually don't care much for Tim Burton's output, the marvellous character designs and magnificent stop-motion animation are just too good to turn down. (I'm not making an effort to sound like a video cover-quote. The stop-motion IS f***ing magnificent.)

Harlan: fair enough, and thanks for that. For an enfant terrible, you're très raisonnable ;)

Lee: UPS tracker says the magic drink powder should be here any minute, and I shall post it on to you straightaway. With hopes that you'll be spared the flu for the rest of winter!

P.A.B.: I went back and read the archives....looks like I missed some good bits earlier in the year! Remind me please, are you the contributor who lives in Ithaca?

B-5/Straczynski
Since Straczynski offered nothing but a teaser, saying he couldn't offer additional details til January 15th, I would presume, at the very least, that Harlan wouldn't be able to be any more forthcoming on his own. ATC

Return of Babylon 5?
JMS comments, sorta, here...

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-12/02/10.45.tv

Harlan, any comment on involvement?

Raiza! Yes! That's right.

In Nancy-speak I believe it's prounced (with a rolling "r") "Rooskybitch".

THANK YOU,
:)
yer pal,
Cindy

Marquand
Harlan: Speaking of the almighty bridge, in the event that no one else here has mentioned it, I wanted to thank you for your repeated recommendations of John P. Marquand. I had read something of yours about a year ago in which you had mentioned THE LATE GEORGE APLEY. Based upon that and an article by Jonathan Yardley in The Washington Post (sorry, doc, had to get a second opinion), I decided to check the tome out. Sure enough, I was floored by Marquand's razor-sharp prose, marveling over how Marquand had wheeled in a momentous Trojan horse into the complacent American castle. Since then, I've read somewhere in the area of ten books of his, including the shaky MR. MOTO series (although those books had the effrontery to throw in a few self-doubting expatriates into pulp spy thrillers), with more in my bookpile, along with Milicent Bell's biography. Even managed to spread the gospel among a few used bookstore clerks, one of whom is going out of her way to keep some Marquand in stock. I was saddened by Thomas Harrow's remarkable cluelessness, moved to shout "You motherfucking idiot!" in public over the events of POINT OF NO RETURN, and, with SINCERELY WILLIS WAYDE (my favorite of the bunch and, oddly enough, one of the few that didn't employ Marquand's time-honored flashback), I was devastated for days at Willis Wayde's despicable transformation.

That Marquand continues to be overlooked is nothing less than criminal. He's one of the few authors I've read that's skewered institutions without mocking the troubled plights of his protagonists. Truly the harder road to travel. His characters are all too human in the foolish decisions they make. His married couples are astutely observed, steeped in the worst of compromises. Remarkably, Marquand was criticized for chronicling flatline heroes, but I can't think of another author that's dared to display the harsh undertow of comfy middle class life quite like him. Too many people trundle through life without even the inkling of an inner revelation. And the delicate decision of whether to watch haplessly as someone destroys herself or to intervene and scare them straight becomes a tricky ethical tightrope.

In an age where a LA STRADA reject reigns in Sacramento, and the rich are rewarded with sweeping tax cuts, Marquand's tales of upward mobility at tremendous personal costs are perhaps more pertinent now than the 40s and 50s. To my knowledge, only one of Marquand's books remains in print (POINT OF NO RETURN). THE LATE GEORGE APLEY is being reissued in April -- but probably only because it's a Pulitzer winner.

Marquand, a man who was one of the most popular writers of his day, appears doomed for extinction. But I'm glad I caught him, thanks in large part to your plaudits, before he was truly impossible to track down.

If for whatever reason you may have considered that some of us weren't listening about Marquand (whom you've mentioned a lot these days), know that at least one of your readers is listening. Thanks again for spreading the word.

For those here who might need additional proof, and someone who can express Marquand's importance better than I can, here's a link to the Yardley article I mentioned:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A32907-2003Feb19

Marquand was one of the greatest examples of someone snubbed by the literary elite precisely BECAUSE he did hack work. And now only a miraculous rave by Oprah or a hit movie adaptation (neither of them likely at this point) will probably save him from the dead. We are all the lesser because of it.

DORIE: I was in a bad mood. It only occurred to me after the posting to Mr. Walsh -- long after -- that he'd probably never seen a copy of RABBIT HOLE, thus the "rookie" query. As it turned out, that was precisely the case, and Mr. Walsh's properly ironic response was more than evenhanded. I was in a bad mood. I wish my excuse were deeper and more profound, but it was just a weary day, and, well, I was in a bad mood.

Maggie Bradury was a delightful woman. Elegant, graceful, wise, and patient. I spoke to Ray yesterday, and he's holding up well. It came as a severe shock to those of us who are close personal friends of Ray and Maggie, her leaving first. Though she has been fragile for some longish while, Ray's recent health problems seemed more imminent of, well, closure. So we've been looking to the left, when suddenly the strike came from the right. She was a superior person, and her leaving is oh so very saddening.

CINDY: Mrs. Gorbachev's first name was Raiza.

Like a number of you, Stephen's acceptance speech left me ambivalent. He was being mannered and careful when he spoke of stick-up-the-ass Bloom-style pedants. Very "Late George Apley" (as John P. Marquqnd would put it). I thought his "bridge" metaphor apt and worthy. Carefully selected and nuanced. But because he is a kind man, and a giving man, he extended his largesse to people who aren't fit to carry his pencil case. Naming three dreadful, simply dreadful, writers like Clancy, Grisham, and Clark, was a disservice both to his believability and to the valid discourse he was trying to start. It was precisely the sort of pandering to the lummoxes of which Harold Bloom and the NYReviewOfHoHum have made their case against King and his compadres. He could as easily have used the names Donald E. Westlake, Louis L'Amour, and Octavia Estelle Butler and made the same point...AND been on solid ground.

But I say hurrah for him. He mentioned Peter Straub, Dutch Leonard and a few others wizards of wordplay. On sum, he did okay, I feel, though as I've said above, he's too nice a man to give them what they TRULY deserved by way of ass-kicking.

Respectfully, Harlan

Frank Church,

I didn't attend King's speech, and I didn't see it, but I've read synopses and quotes, and am pretty close to 100 percent positive he never suggested Mary Higgins Clark deserves a National Book Award nomination. He said those in attendance should read those writers, to stay in touch with their culture, but not that they deserve the award. Right?

Jay, it was King himself who called his prose the literary equivalent of a Big Mac with fries. So you've got him to blame for those comparisons. I think he's wrong, though; he seems conscious of the prose, and writes well enough, even, at times, quite gracefully.

John Thompson, you make some strange assumptions, including the one that works that "conform to the current cultural dictates" never last. But I agree that style is important, maybe more important than anything, and that Grisham et al. are lacking in style.

I think King's finest works will last. And deserve to. And the fanboy part of me, which is small but there, can't wait to read THE DARK TOWER VII, which will, I think, lay all doubts to rest.

Finding Time To Read
P.A., a suggestion if you want to catch up on the Dark Tower series and beat those commuter blues:

Audio Books.

Yes, they are expensive, especially since you will want the unabridged audio books (and I do not believe Stephen King offers anything but), but I've purchased my audio books through ebay at some surprisingly low costs. I go to the appropriate section, search for 'unabridged' and then bid away. Thus, an instant time waster of a traffic jam becomes a good chunk of the next chapter of Wizard and Glass.

I just received my unabridged audio of Neal Stephonson's The Diamond Age, and though the retail price on the package was $44.95, I got it for $6 plus shipping.

I commute 32 miles each way, from the way way top of Phoenix to the way way bottom of Phoenix. Naturally, so does everyone else here in the valley. Audio books bring sanity when you are sick of your music and talk radio.

-TODD

Sorry to hear about Marguerite Bradbury. The poem Bradbury read at her funeral service is on the message board at his website; it's very moving.

Stephen King's recovering from pneumonia right now, though the article I read today said he's off oxygen anyway.

Take care, everybody, Jon

My favorite Poe story is Murders In the Rue Morgue, basically because of the surprise jolt of who the killer was, and the sadness at how the ape was mistreated, and the morality play of how man treats nature. It went beyond just a horror ditty.

When you have a body of work as expansive as King's, it's inevitable that some of it will not make the cut as classic literature worthy of study. I just got The Complete Poe, and lemme tell ya, it's a big ass book with very thin pages, and much of it I'd never heard of or read. It would take years to read it and frankly, not all of it is worth reading except for completists. This is not to say that I won't read it, but I already know some of it is dreck. It's inevitable.

The same is true of King. For every Tommyknockers there's a The Shining or The Stand or Carrie. I'm not sure why being popular should automatically preclude literary merit or critical praise; that seems like sour grapes to me. Why does laboring in obscurity the only way to be respected? I'm glad King is getting some recognition in his own lifetime, but I think he will be canonized, so to speak, by future generations of readers.

On a side note, I've been reading The Dark Tower series for the first time and it's killing me because I really, REALLY want to sit down and gorge myself on it, just read the whole series, short stories and related novels, but I can't b/c of school work. Argh! I wish it were summer! (Also because I sat, stopped dead in traffic, for 1 hour and 40 minutes this morning due to a snow related accident. Needless to say I was massively late for work, which threw my whole day off. Damn lake effect!)

PAB

Jay and Peter,
Hear, hear.

King and Poe
John: comparing "Cask" to Dreamcatcher is like comparing fluffy pancakes to a burnt omelette. How about "Cask" to The Shining, or Cujo, or Bag of Bones? If there is any one truth that most of us here agree on, it's that King isn't batting a thousand with his books, but that doesn't diminish in any way the quality of those works we do hold up as examples of good fiction.

Will King's entire ouvre be read in a hundred years? I sure as hell hope not. I would hate to see a world what inherits Tommyknockers as an example of 20th century literature. But one just has to look at the rest of his corpus of work to realize that despite his occasional stinkers, King's batting average, his accessability, and his style (yes, the man has style, which is what distinguishes him from the real McToads of literature) are worthy of respect and consideration, no matter what the Harold Blooms of the world say.

---Peter

It seems to me that the whole debate on King hinges on the idea that he is a popular writer. Now, call me a purist, but doesn't the craft break down to the idea of telling a story and its final effect on the reader? If the story itself evokes images, carries the reader along and, in the end, leaves him or her with a sense of a story well told and time well spent...isn't that the core of what we do? I mean, debating the structure and esoteric constructs of the man's prose seems to me to be like judging a film based on its set design. Sure, its important, but does every "good" story have to be based on unconventional word choice or sentence structure?

Many compare King to eating McDonalds instead of something more substantial and healthy. I disagree. When was the last time someone read 700 pages for fun? With King, its like you're having a 700-page conversation with the man as he tells you what happened over coffee or during the long drive from Maine to Ohio. King's gift is that he can create these worlds and not force the reader to think they need some sort of entrance exam to qualify for reading it.

You can open someone's imagination and thought without beating them over the head with truckloads of cross-referenced footnotes. I think the elistist who does't want to see King win in his/her club has spent all their time trying to impress the fuck out of other writers and critics and not enough time just telling stories.

But hey: Mark Twain never gussied up his prose, so I guess his pulpy folksy charm ain't worthy of sittin' with the upper crusties, neither.

Sad News
I don't know if any of you have been to the Ray Bradbury website recently, but they are posting on the message board the sad news that Marguerite Bradbury passed away on Nov. 25.

I have a Ray Bradbury video that I like to show my writing classes on occasion and in it, he relates the story of how he proposed to Mageurite. It tuns out her friends were a bit skeptical about her becoming involved with a pulp writer, a man they felt 'was going nowhere.' In response, Bradbury said that he ws going to the moon, Mars and the stars and would she like to come along and she said yes. And that was the greatest yes Bradbury ever received.

Having likewise married a woman who took a chance on a dreamer, I know how special a person like that is and how much joy she brings to my life. Marguerite Bradbury gave Bradbury well over fifty years of that joy.

Mark

My problem with the writers King recommended is that their writing lacks style. I confess I get tired of sentences like "Peter went to the drugstore." Sometimes, the simplest way of saying something is the best, but an entire book of such sentences?? Plus, they do not encourage their audience to question anything. They conform to the current cultural dictates..and this is why most popular fiction never lasts.

To use an example from a different medium, the best movies, like the work of Kurosawa or Welles, take advantage of the visual medium, creating arresting images that whisper sweetly to the subconscious mind. Language offers the same opportunities. Where is the sheer delight in wordplay? While I admire a lot of King's work, one only has to look at Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" versus, say, Dreamcatcher, to see why Poe's work endures.

People get in the habit of buying certain writers, even when said writers no longer deliver. It explains why people eat at places like McDonald's, stay in deadening relationships and watch sitcoms. We are creature of habit, plagued by routine.

King's speech, I believe, was at least partly motivated by the criticism he's received over the years, some of it fair, some of it unfounded. But a leap into unconscious populism is not the answer.

Good Ol Walshy!

Hey Walshy,

I hope that didn't sour you on joining the HERC. It's still a good investment. Good job speaking up for yourself though.

Always a friend,

Steve Dooner

Jay: I'm so glad your dad is OK. I treasure my father and know exactly how you feel. Hang in there and keep us updated.

Frank: In spite of your reminder, I missed the Stephen King speech but from what you've said, I have to agree with you. John Grisham and Mary Higgins Clark are beach reading, not art, and I feel like King is demeaning himself if he's placing his work in the same category with theirs. I went through a period where I read a bunch of Grisham, and some of it is quite entertaining, but I don't think it will endure as a classic body of work. But what do I know, I'm just an English teacher, and The Canon can be rather enigmatic. OTOH, I do think that major portions of King's body of work will become Canon, if hasn't happened already, and I'd love to teach a college level class on King someday. Now that would be fun...

Dorie: Far be it for me to defend someone so utterly capable of defending himself, I think Harlan was just messin' around with Walshy, having a bit of fun. You know, the way lion cubs have fun when they take your head in their mouths and shake. No harm intended, but your brain is a bit rattled. Having personally experienced this kind of jocularity from the man HimsElf, I'm tellin' ya, Mark took in it in the spirit in which it was intended, like "Ouch-- ha ha ha!" (And if you think that was julienned, have I got some archives for YOU!)

PAB

Colmes has always been good to reply to e-mail...he wrote me a couple of times back when I used to listen to his radio show during the early Nineties. He was nervier back then, I think. In many markets he followed Limbaugh and there was a lot of arguing. He loved getting under people's skin. I imagine television has taken a lot of that away.

My Thanksgiving was bad, though not as bad as some other people's. My wife and I both decided that taking my father-in-law to the doctor was a better idea than having to endure hours with the other relatives at our house. So we just let them have the run of the place, and the place was a wreck when we got home.
A gang of circus apes would have made less of a mess. Father-in-law is fine, really just had a cold but his doctor tells him to get checked out anytime he has anything, even things that seem minor. My wife and I both have colds but it's a small price to pay.

My wife got a call back from one of the universities she applied to...this job market being what it is I consider that a good sign but we've yet to hear anything else. Maybe the person is sick, or on vacation. It's nerve wracking.

Gosh, Alan Colmes emailed me. Here is his witty retort:

"My book is doing quite well; get your facts straight.
And if you're any kind of liberal or progressive you'd be more open
minded.
Apparently, you like the conservatives you claim to hate."

Rob, I think I just found your soulmate.

------------

Damn, if Steven King didn't piss me off last night.

I was watching his speech at the National Book Awards, and he went off, castigating the throng for not being more open minded, in selecting their book prizes. His idea was that more popular books should be nominated. His picks included, John Grisham, Tom Clancy, Mary Higgins Clark and the like. Does Steve actually read that trash? Aim higher, oh bard of the bump in the night.

I like the guy, but damn.

Here I am standing under the tree in the electrical storm...holding a golf club aloft...

Harlan: I'm only an occasional and recent contributor, I freely admit I am not as well-informed and well-read as most of the crowd here, BUT: Mark Walsh there was looking for information. He was asking because he didn't know. I think it was unfair of you to julienne him just for inquiring. No matter how eloquently it was done. OK, none of my business, it obviously didn't bother him, for all I know the two of you are best pals and this is just you joshin' wid him--- but I have to add my two cents anyway.

Mrs. Claus By Any Other Name

Cindy and Cookie:

Thanks for the responses. (Apparently I'm not as crazy as my family would like to think. Then again...) The link to the New York Times was perfect for filling in the gaps.

Here's the funny part (as my cousin often says when she is telling a story after having dipped into the nog once too often) - when I first saw the image, I thought it was Harvey Fierstein. Within seconds, my mind changed it to Nathan Lane. (Luckily, the only time I testify against people is when I've been reviewing documents.)

And, based on the article, my guess is that the network decided it was best to go to breaking "news" rather than let Mr. Fierstein/Mrs. Turnblad sing.

Thanks again.

Ahhh The Reagans.

:)

I felt a bit guilty for watching-- but figured what the hell, informed minds wanna know.

I'm SO glad that I did!

All the hoopla over the meanness of the script and the acid portrayal of the Reagans-- in PARTICULAR Nancy. CBS pulled the PLUG on this lovely Christmas piece because of the outcry from Reagan supporters.

How silly!

I'm a Reagan supporter and I loved it.

Turns out the film is one of the most wildly amusing things I've seen since Dumb and Dumber. It was like an outstanding Saturday Night Live skit that had an extended life. It was Airplane and Mommie Dearest and I laughed out loud so often that my 15 year old son came to see what was so funny. It was apparently a universal thing as Beau also busted out-- in particular at the Gulag statement made by Nancy to Mrs. Gobechev ( what WAS her first name-- I can't remember- was it Irena or something like that?)

In any case, the writers took great license, going so far as to create dialogue between the President and his wife when no one else was around. The scenes with his top aides and cabinet members were TO DIE FOR. The characterization of Alexander Haig was a scream!

The cherry on the banana split that was The Reagans HAD to have been the writers' take on what preceded the Iran-Contra scandal. I SWEAR the guys hovering over a barely cogent President Reagan's hospital bed trying to get him to pass off on their idea of trading missiles for hostages LOOKED like they belonged in some Disney movie as cartoon villains.

If you haven't seen this you MUST.

Two thumbs up.
Cindy

p.s. Is anyone else here addicted to Larry David's show Curb Your Enthusiasm?

HARLAN: Brain rot? Holy moly, I hope not! Then again, given all the freshman essays I’ve read over the past twelve years, anything is possible. I’ve never seen a copy of The Rabbit Hole, so I wanted to make sure I had my information straight before sending off the check to join up. Dementia? Rookie mistake is more like it.

Nevertheless, apologies for my numbheadedness.

Having been an eyewitness to a drugstore burglary, and having had the robber put away on my identification & testimony, I am

Your chum,
Walshy

BECAUSE IT'S RELEVANT
Y'know, the owner of Macy's drowned on the Titanic.

It may be of interest for some people here to know that my feelings toward cops has changed over the last year; maybe the debate about better communication between police and the public has produced an effect or maybe it's me or maybe it's both but I've had radically more pleasant, more mutually diplomatic encounters in the course of the year (not to suggest I've been getting my ass in trouble).
Just thinking out loud after a conversation I had the other night with a really nice officer (we were respecting each other's boundaries since he WAS on duty). In fact, he even got into the political issues a bit even though we had to make it short.
There'll always be bad cops here and there; but what I perceived as a ratio has changed.

Jay: I'm glad to hear your father pulled through. Whew!!

Mike: Nathan Lane as Mrs. Clause? The NYTimes had an article about how Harvey Fierstein planned to dress as Mrs. Claus. It was a controversial move in Macy's "family parade." The article can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/27/nyregion/27CND-CLAUS.html

Harlan,

I have an audition for an acting class coming up where I need a monologue and I wondered if you'd object if I tried a portion of "Prince Myshkin, and Hold the Relish." Particularly the portion where the guy at the hot dog stand tells the story of how some men are just no good for women. I'm trying to find something and I think this would be something interesting. It's at least an option if I have your permission. If not, don't sweat it. I'm still looking.

Thanks for the time,
Bill

Scrooge.

Saw Walter Koenig at Mid-Ohio-Con today. He is looking well.
He said he will be appearing as Scrooge starting this week, I believe. I think he said it would be in Sherman Oaks, but I didn't write it down and it was about 6 hours ago. (Short term memory really crappy due to lack of sleep.)

Back to lurk mode. Bye.

JAY: As one who lost his father early, I smile at the way things have turned out (so far) for the best. Treasure the treasure, kiddo.

MARK WALSH: Sometimes I cannot believe some of you folks. Truly, no less than dumbfounded. For why, you ask? Here's for why, Mr. Walsh: Since nowhere on the front page of RABBIT HOLE do the words "HERC Newsletter" appear; since the huge name RABBIT HOLE appears on the front page in display type at least TWICE AS BIG as the largest headlines; since there appears on the front page of EVERY ISSUE since we began HERC, a drawing of a rabbit with my face on it; since the mailing is ALWAYS refered to passim the copy as RABBIT HOLE and never, to my recollection, as "the HERC newsletter"; since the title RABBIT HOLE appears in a black, reverse-out block at the top of two of the other pages in the current four-page issue; since the indicia page clearly, always says, "RABBIT HOLE is issued to members of The Harlan Ellison Recording Collection"; and since, happily, you have not previously indicated any pathology either of dementia or advanced tertiary syphilis resulting in blindness or brain-rot, I am driven ineluctably to the conclusion that you need a class in first- or second-grade remedial reading.

Walshy, baby, I would fear for my life if you were the only eye witness at the scene of my alleged crime.

Shaking his head in dismay, but smiling at Jay's good news, I remain, a stranger in a reeeeleeee strange land,

yr. pal,

Harlan

Mike,
It wasn't Nathan Lane it was Harvey Fierstien. He's adorable-- even as Mrs. Claus.

:)
Cindy


Jay,
Your dad sounds like the sort you should listen to. I'm glad he's home but don't just take one cardiologist's opinion that he's okay. Put them through their paces and make them figure out what caused it. None of this-- "well we think it might be" will do. There are a lot of wonderful doctors but there are a number who are not. The trick is sorting through them.

More unsolicited advice from
your friend,
Cindy

Hey Lee, I'm with you re: the elderly. I gained a new respect for our elderly ever since working on a personal project where I've spoken to many persons in their 80's & 90's. One fellow I was talking to about a year ago scared the be-jesus out of me without meaning to. He was talking about one of his buddys from WW2, what good friends they still are, etc., then he said, you know, I don't know what happened to the last 50 years (meaning they just flew by). You had to be there I suppose, but it chilled me to the bone.

Did I see what I thought I saw?
I'm looking for witnesses to a Thnksgiving event that I'm not sure really happened. I'm hoping someone here can support my story. If not, I will have to listen to my family's constant taunts that I was suffering from a pre-turkey delusional episode.

Our family was kinda watching the Macy's parade. (By that I mean the television was on, it was tuned to the parade, and some of us were watching it some of the time. Just one of those things you - I mean we - have to do on Thanksgiving.) I wandered into the kitchen, glanced back at the tv and, honest, I swear, I saw Nathan Lane dressed as Mrs. Santa Claus. Just about the time I was saying, "Everyone, look at...", they cut away to a special announcement. And what was more important than Mrs. Lanety Claus? Bush going to Baghdad.

Which raises interesting point number 2. Was the network so scared of Mr. Lane that they felt it necessary to yank him from the broadcast in exchange for one of the lamest important, breaking news items I've recently seen? It is an interesting conspiracy theory.

Anyway, if someone can back me on this (the story of Nathan, not the conspiracy - although that would be good, too), it would be greatly appreciated.

two (,) if

Thanksgiving entropy has destroyed my grammar.

apologies
MW

I'm confused...
So what else is new? you may say.

Well, I'm confused on this point: is 'The Rabbit Hole' that many of you have mentioned here the same thing as the HERC Newsletter? Or if there is a difference between the two? If someone could enlighten me, I would be thankful.

Best,
Walshy

Jay,

I have a great aunt with slowly failing eyesight. She’s one of those classic octegenarian blue haired ladies that lost her husband decades ago and has been doing very well, thank you very much, ever since. But the eye problem really bothers her because it points the way to the eventual loss of independence that finds everyone that doesn’t go earlier from something sudden. Can you believe that a priest she went to for counselling told her that she should ‘just be thankful she had had a good long life.’? She said she ‘told that jackass that he’d come to the same place quickly enough, and she wondered if he wouldn’t want a few more good days, too, when his time came.’

One of the things that angers me the most about American culture is the lack of respect and empathy that so many of us have for our elderly people. We yell at ‘em like they’re deaf, or honk at them as they try to cross a street, or patronize them in speech, as though they think as slowly as they move. I talk to the elders in my family as often as I can. Talking to an old person is like being in a time machine. They talk to you about delivering groceries with a donkey and cart from a general store, or about how they survived the Great Depression or got lost in the hedgerows during the Allied invasion of France and it’s such a thrill to see their eyes seeing in turn these things and places and events that don’t exist anywhere anymore, except in their heads.

Update
Thanks everybody.

My dad is 83 and one of the most disquieting things about this whole experience, to me, was that his treatment was approached with the same attitude mechanics give my 175K mile van... "it's made it this far...it don't owe you anything at this point." For a guy who is vibrant and healthy - a mad who looks, feels and acts like a man in his late 60s, this attitude made me angry.

More than that is the fear displayed by my mom - something you just don't see in that woman...ever. It was as though she finally came to realize what's lurking down the darkening hallway.

But he's home and resting. Tests were inconclusive. They think it MIGHT be medicine interaction. It MIGHT be just a fluke. I think they finally sent dad home because his pulse and BP were strong for a full day and he had the strength to ask "when do you think the cardiologist will get the time to get up off his ass and give me a few minutes?"

So the worst has been postponed.

And we celebrate another day together.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Jay: Sorry to hear about your father, and I hope he gets better soon.

All (or at least all south of the 49th parallel): I do admire the US for its ability to hold a four-day holiday weekend (unless you're a retail clerk or anyone else who got stuck working on Friday, that is). Canada doesn't seem to be able to advance beyond the three-day stage. Did anyone have turducken?

Cheers, Jon

Jay's Dad
Jay,

I'm pleased to hear your dad pulled through. My prayers for him and your family. Here's hoping he's with you for much longer.

Peg

"I have never seen this room so closed minded...the Cat In The Hat...looks quite funny; and Mike Myers looks just like the Cat come to life."

But FRANK...it's CORPORATE!

Jay,

Happy Thanksgiving, and here's hoping your dad is out of the hospital soon. I don't know how long my own dad will be around. At 71, he's lived longer than any man in his family, at least in the last couple or three generations. I'm just glad he's here.

To All:
The best to all your families out there.

Chuck

Punts each and every turkey carcass off the planet and looks forward to avoiding the stinking bird for at least a few weeks.

Hope noone had any gastoral intestinal episodes yesterday.

Don't ask.

----------------

Prick up thine ears: Sunday, at 9pm est. C-Span will be showing the speech by Steven King, when he received the award, that got Harold Bloom all liquored up. Don't blame me if you miss it.

----------------

I have never seen this room so closed minded. Sure, the Cat In The Hat is more commercial, sure it doesn't have the spirit of the book, but from the scenes I have seen, it looks quite funny; and Mike Myers looks just like the Cat come to life.

And the commercial tie-ins are rather lame, but you never complained about Spider Man or Lord Of The Rings. See the movie.

------------

Bush going to Iraq is going to stir up more terrorism. I can smell it brewing now. That prick should stay there.

John Thompson,

yeah, I agree! I think the ideal length for a novel is 250-350 pages, somewhere in that range. Gene Wolfe length, Jonathan Carroll length. Updike length. As much as I liked Jonathan Lethem's latest, I think it suffered because of its gigant-o size.

Anne Rice is awful. I haven't made it through any of her books. VIOLIN was the first book I ever gave up on and tossed into a trash can. I have nothing against her, and wish her no plagues or even minor annoyances, but goddamn she's a garbage writer.

Anne Rice has written a couple of readable books, but I gave up on her a long time ago.

Haven't read any Straub in a while.

Jay,
Thanks for that post--you brought Thanksgiving into correct focus. I am so happy for you that your Dad is going to be all right. I'll pray for speed in his recovery.

God bless you and yours--- you've blessed me.

Your friend,
Cindy

French Thanksgiving

France does not celebrate Thanksgiving.

But the local members of the Fugawi Nation (thinking of you Peg!) are going to fry up a few turkeys come Saturday, just to show ‘em how it’s done. Several males in the group have created a fry stand that NASA would be proud of, having apparently scrounged one of the main shuttle engines to use as a burner. We’re all set to fire it up; the women are laughing and the neighbors are edgy.

I spent my actual Thursday getting certified as a Michelin tire design engineer. Me vs. three experts reviewing nine months of supervised design work. I passed, after four hours of oral examination in French. I think this makes me the only professional ballet dancer ever to be certified in tire design. Now I begin six months doing design industrialization and optimisation work, at a high-end facility about 100 km from my family.

I’ve located an old servants quarters to stay in while I’m there. It has sheep.

Baaaa. Baaaa.

Finally, I am happy to announce that after two solid months of sick children, with the occasional sick grown-up tossed in for good measure, my house is certified bug free, except for the mouse, which we’re still trying to catch. From minor ailment to life threatening illness, it comes home time and time again that good health is the cornerstone of a happy life. Happy holiday weekend everyone.

John K: I read "lost boy lost girl" and give it high marks as well. Kind of ironic, since Straub's "Ghost Story" was the last horror novel I enjoyed as much. I loved how concise it was, telling a tight story in less than 300 pages. I think stories were much better written before big doorstop books of 500 pages or more became the norm.

I wonder how readers have the patience for these snoozefests. I recently sampled Anne Rice's Blackwood Farm, encouraged by some positive reviews. Let me tell you, brotha, it will be a long time before I get swayed again. Rice, more than any writer I've ever read, needs an editor. Pages go by and nothing, absolutely nada, happens. The dialogue is worse than an episode of a soap opera, and the characters have no reality, performing ridiculous actions that make no sense. The protagonist is supposed to be a contemporary eighteen-year-old but speaks like a seventeenth-century aristocrat.

I'm thankful we have writers like Straub who actually give a fuck.

JAY,

The Whitey vis-a-vis Redskins thread was a joke; yours certainly was not. I am so fucking glad your dad pulled through. Hope he can work on the causes to avoid any repeat of the crisis. Unless it proves too personal an issue maybe you can share with us how they diagnose it and treat it.

Jay,

I'm glad your dad is still on the planet. The experience must have been awful, but it sounds like it altered your perspective. Reading about it altered mine, too, and, I'm sure, that of other board members. Everything else looks petty next to love and the possibility of death, and rightly so.

For those of you tempted to see THE CAT IN THE HAT, so as to give yourselves more reasons to bitch, let me recommend instead Peter Straub's new novel lost boy lost girl.

I've found that years of reading has dampened the pleasure, as if I'm becoming immune to it and am only reading out of habit or boredom. It's only every five years or so that a book knocks me on my ass and reminds me what literature, at its best, can do. LOLITA was one of those books. MIND FIELDS was one. THE WIND-UP BIRD CHRONICLE was one. And lost boy lost girls is one, too; it's so brilliant and moving that I can't articulate what it did to me, except to say that I love it.

Has anyone else read it?

Hey Jay,
Glad to hear that your dad survived and is on the mend. A happy Thanksgiving indeed... and thank YOU for the reminder of what we should be grateful for. Give your dad our best, and take care of you, too.

Michael & Alia

A Simple Christalmighty, Jay:

I'm truly sorry, Jay. I hope he gets better. Your circumstance is eerily similar to what happened to us some months ago, but I'm truly glad yours had a better outcome. Take care of yourselves and your family, but mostly, take care of your dad.

Mine and Scotty's best, Mel

Thanksgiving
Hey, ya know what?

I don't give a damn about politics and history of Thanksgiving.

This morning, 'round 3am my dad nearly died. My mom found him pale and unresponsive after calling out in his sleep. He was carted to the hospital with a pulse rate of less than 40 and a BP high enough to super-soak the ER.

The family was called and our plans to sit around on our fat asses to drink, eat and complain about stupid shit changed to waiting in the ER all day for some guy to fix our broken dad.

Dad got better with the help of someone who felt it was more important to work than to sit at home and gorge, pondering the subtle meaning of the holiday. Thanksgiving is nothing political. It's not about who did what to whom. It's about thanking God or Fate or Happenstance for SURVIVING. Making it through and appreciating the truly important things in your life.

My dad's in the hospital. He's getting better. He's still living on the planet. My family came together today for the first time in a long long while and we shared a true Thanksgiving. We're thankful dad's still here. We're thankful mom had support through the day. We're thankful we didn't draw some stupid intern who lost the draw for working the holiday. We got a real cardiologist. A damn good one. And a damn good team of professionals.

So that's Thanksgiving. No football. No big fat meal. No false pretense of uniting Whitey and the Redskin. Just family and the realization of those things we possess in this world that are most important.

Happy Day.

Alex: I'm a Cherokee, which may cause some of you to say, "Ah, that explains it..." The thing about a lot of the tribes is that they really don't feel much community with people outside the tribe even if those people are also Indian. So I wasn't raised to think anything negative about Thanksgiving. For the Cherokee the ugly memories are reserved for "The Trail of Tears"..the forced removal from Georgia and the Carolinas to Oklahoma. If there's a historical figure that Cherokee people have bad feelings about it would be Andrew Jackson. My dad spit on his grave once when we were on vacation.

But as far as I can tell, a lot of Indian people aren't really interested in tribes other than their own, or at least tribes that are outside their region. So many tribes have had ugly histories with their neighbors that it's easy to see why.

I view Thanksgiving as a holiday that has negative roots, but has changed into something else over time so I don't have any problem with celebrating it. Hardly any of our holidays have much in common with their origins by this point anyway.

They have an official site at www.cherokee.org Check out the language section--it's always interesting.

Harry Chapin
Alex, I was a big fan of Harry Chapin in the 70's (my teens). I owned a complete collection of his 8-tracks (for you young-uns, 8-tracks were.....oh never mind) and he gave a concert just a few miles from my home in Waterloo Village, NJ. It was a fun concert, he spoke as much as he sang, and I recall purchasing a "Harry, It Sucks" tee-shirt that I held on to for years (the phrase coming from his live, not recorded, version of 30,000 Pounds Of Bananas."

Though much of his work can be considered corny today, I still feel the lyrics and music hold up.....and all of my 8-tracks have been converted to CD.

His death would have had a fairly large impact on my except for the fact that it happened about 2 months after my father died when I was 20. Instead of the impact, I more or less shrugged as celebrity deaths held nothing to the death of a dad.

It's strange, though. Just yesterday Debbie and I were discussing the affect that John Lennon's death had on many here, and how it had none on us (for me, I was more intrigued by the circumstances rather than the man who was killed), and I commented to her that the celebrity death that would have had an impact on me was Harry Chapin if it had happened at another time in my life. And now, here you are mentioning him.

Thanksgiving was his holiday, as you might imagine.

The celebrity death that really stuck with me for a long time was Isaac Asimov. It's still hard to comprehend how a body can soak in so much knowledge and good humor into it's every cell, and then all of that is lost, kaput, when the reaper visits. I couldn't shake his death for awhile, the way you shake others by awaiting the tribute news story, the tribute newspaper story, the tribute weekly news magazine story, and then filing the person away in the "no more new work to come" folder.

-TODD

Just wanted to second the rave reviews on The Waldorf Conference--it was a great show!

I didn't have as far to travel as Shane Shellenbarger, but had to leave at about the same time to make the drive down to Beverly Hills in a timely fashion. Of course the ticket vendors had lost my reservation (after forcing me to call, as their online service only allows you to buy a minimum of _2_ tickets...apparently buying 1 puts you in the same category as the animal that shows up stag to the arc) but there were still seats available. No doubt all the people staying home to watch the finale of "Joe Millionaire."

The play itself was very intriguing, particularly because I have only a layperson's knowledge of the events of that time. It did a good job of representing the different pressures that were put on all the various people involved to make them act the way they did. HE was wonderful as usual, and I thought Robert Picardo and Paul Mazursky were also excellent. And who doesn't love Edward Asner?

Afterwards, there was a silent auction of books/documents of the blacklist period, and light refreshments. Because I am the worst mingler in the world, I just grabbed some cookies and made the trek back--yay, free parking!

Lynn:
Good to see you and Bill! Sorry I missed you afterwards! HE will have to make more frequent appearances so we can meet up again.

Susan:
Thanks for giving me the chance to renew the Rabbit Hole again! I had been meaning to do it for awhile and just hadn't gotten around to it.

HE:
As usual, the only complaint I have concerning your performances is the long span of time between them. It was a grand job--we await the next one eagerly...

PEG: Whereas *I* just complain about being stuck here in America for all four months of the Christmas holidays ...

DEATHS WHICH HAVE MYSELF MOVED: Hmm. I was old enough to cry when I heard about Lennon, but didn't really know why. Nine years old isn't old enough to have had such a sociological impavct made upon you.

Obviously, the Challenger disaster (guess who was home "sick" from school and watching the teevee?) hit me hard. The others that hit me hardest in their time were Heinlein, Asimov, and, perhaps out of place but which still rocked me, Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Of course, in the long run, the death that still affects me the most (at least, that wasn't of a friend or relative or pet) is one I didn't even know about when it happened; one person whose work and life I didn't truly come to appreciate until years later: Harry Chapin.
Yeah, he wrote "Taxi" and "Cat's in the Cradle," but there was so much more. And sure, I love the man's songs, but few realize just what an IMPACT this grinning songwriter with the gravelly, only-fair voice had. He gave over two-hundred-odd shows a year--and out of those, morer than HALF were benefits, performed for free. He testified in front of Congress and in the White House on hunger issues, forcing many from both sides of the aisle to truly work for hunger relief years after he was gone. He almost single-handedly raised up the arts scene on his native Long Island, funding and getting funding for the Long Island Ballet, an arts center, and more. He helped start and helped inspire food banks all over the country. For the few hits he had, he appeared on talk shows, and, after singing, he'd talk, NOT pimping his albums, but talking about the needy. He co-founded World Hunger Year, as well as several other foundations and organizations which exist to this day, and his manager, Ken Kragen, was so converted by him to working for the needy that he was one of the main organizers of Live Aid, USA for Africa, and a lot of other high-profile benefit bashes. All this and more, and I only got to learn about the man and his work years afterward.

MICHAEL; COOKIE: I know, I know ... the Seuss abuse is horrible. But the books and the cartoons will endure even this. They simply can't NOT.
(But I DO have a Cat in the Hat clock--I just like it. I would NEVER have bought it if it weren't the REAL Cat; if it were a movie-based portrayal ...)

JOEL: If I may ask: What tribe(s)?

The reason I ask is both curiosity about you and because I want to get your feel on something: How much does Thanksgiving really play into the thoughts of some of the farther-flung tribes? Does a Chiricahua or Mescalero care about the Pilgrims? How about a Cherokee? Or has the Pilgrim become a symbol of the duplicitous settler?
Me, I LOVE Gluttony Day; it used to be my second-favorite holiday after Hallowe'en, and now that I'm deemed an adult, I gets the Day now beats the Eve, if barely. I couldn't feel guilty for it if I tried; my people came here only a hundred years ago, so ...

CHRIS BARKLEY: And I've been a finger's length away from that manuscript, here in Philly at the Rosenbach Museum.
(It was sold to them by Alice Liddell-Hargreaves herself)

Joel,

"save the apology and pass the turkey"

If it's all the same to you, Joel, I'd rather just hand you the apology. I'm like that at the dinner table.

The reason you don't gripe about Thanksgiving is because, bless our causes, you're well and properly assimilated. God knows the work it took...shovlin' your descendents into docile complacency. But you're happy now. See how silly all that fuss about land was?

Tony,

My gratitude for that tip.

catchen wiz youse guyz

cookie:

I am resolutely determined not to see the Cat, either -- and fortunately, I have no children to bug me about it. I think there is something creepy, or at least wickedly devilish, about the Cat as Dr. Geisel conceived him, but to realize and limit him as a live-action creature will inevitably diminish him.

I'm annoyed not only by all the TV advertising -- which is not difficult to avoid -- but by the US Postal Service cancellations. This started with that animated horse feature last year; the Cat is only the second example plastered all over our mail. Since I have to open anywhere from 10 to 450 pieces of mail per day at work, I'm especially annoyed by this. I wonder how much the postal service is getting from Disney for this unprecedented form of advertising?

Rob and Brian:

I'll never forget sitting quietly alone in my college dorm room (senior year) late at night after the first news came over the radio and weeping silently as the Boston radio stations played song after song by Lennon. The father of one of my roommates asked me what all the fuss was about, since he had been involved in the civil rights movement and thought that far more significant than a "mere singer." I explained that people were mourning their youth, mourning a sense of possibility (their own and the society's), which they associated with Lennon, as much as the man himself.

Rob was amazed the people say they cannot empathize with the impact of Kennedy's murder because it was before their time. He explained how it is possible to overcome that presumption; I was reading the third volume of Caro's biography of LBJ on the bus to work this morning and tearing up over his recitation of racist violence and threats against blacks in the 1950s (Emmett Till, Authorine Lucy) and the grand achievements of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the speeches of MLK and others.

Alex:

Thanks for the Prufrock reference. I like that!

Steve Dooner:

You asked how many times America can be a girl who loses her virginity (innocence)? Over and over, world without end, goddamn (so to speak). There's a quintessential American quality of optimism and therefore innocence that we have and retain, compared to the rest of the world -- due to wealth, individualist ideology, the blandishments of consumer culture and corporate advertising, etc., etc. -- and then there is the ever-renewing faith of adolescence, which is going to be particularly pronounced in a society that worships the energy of youthfulness as opposed to the wisdom of age.

I had a strangely out-of-context, suspended reaction to JFK's murder, which occurred when I was four. I didn't hear about the shooting itself, did not witness the reaction of anyone around me personally, but I was at my cousins' house for Thanksgiving a number of days later and asked to watch some TV in the basement (since my parents didn't allow it in our house), and watched a strangely solemn parade about which I knew nothing, alone, while people bustled upstairs.

Have a happy holiday with your loved ones and/or friends, everybody; Carole is meeting me with a rented car in less than a half hour for the long drive down to Coos Bay for a rendezvous with the rest of my immediate family and many friends.

From The Writer's Almanac with Garrison Keillor, 26 November 03
On this day in 1864, Charles Lutwidge Dodgson sent Alice Liddell a handwritten manuscript called Alice's Adventures Underground as an early Christmas present. He published Alice in Wonderland the following year, and Queen Victoria liked it so much that she dispatched a letter to him saying she would be "pleased to accept any other works by the same pen." She soon received a copy of a book called Syllabus of Plane Algebraical Geometry.

Happy Holiday, & an FYI for Rob
Just wishing all a Happy Thanksgiving. Have fun & loaf if you get the chance.


Rob, if memory serves you're a fan of Tarkovsky? 2:30 CST tonight Turner Classic Movies is running film of his called THE SACRIFICE. Just in case you hadn't already spotted it.

Bests to all,

--tr

Indian/Native America
This raises a question I've always had. Why is it "Indian Gaming"? Why is an unpolitically correct phrase mixed with a politically correct one? Shouldn't it be "Indian Gambling" or "Native American Gaming"?

Something to ponder over the holidays.

Speaking of which, may everyone get the bird they truly want. Happy T-day.

Joel, you're an Indian, eh? We sure got an exotic bunch in this void. Good to see Harlan is affecting or infecting the world.

Me and Cindy are the only butter rumped white devils. Watch us, we tricksters.

-------------

May the turkey not taste like wood, and the stuffing taste like shit. That's as idealistic as I get folks.

Ho ho ho. Love ya.

It's interesting, I'm Indian and neither I nor anyone else who is Indian that I know has ever said one bad thing about Thanksgiving. I think it's mainly guilty white people who are troubled by it, though I'm sure there are probably at least a few Indians out there who are...but if you think the majority of Indian people have some kind of hang up about Thanksgiving you don't know what you're talking about. I think the mascot issue is way overrated too...I'd rather have the Washington Redskins than a bunch of white people patronizing me any day. The tribe I belong to operates a private school and their mascot is the Indian, as was the high school where I attended...what the hey, we were mostly Indian. But it's true, there's a double standard...I just don't think it's a big deal to a lot of the people who are supposedly being besmirched. Instead of getting rid of Indian mascots, I'd rather see all the races portrayed the same way, but that'll never happen.

I do give Frank credit for using the term Indian instead of "Native American," a phony government term I've never heard used. The AIM people say it's a way to destroy identity, and they're probably right.

Anyway, save the apology and pass the turkey. Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

This is my first Thanksgiving with all you folks in the Webderland pavilion. I am honored to be among ya.

Steve Dooner

Gobble.
Gobble. Gobble. Gobble. Joy. Joy. Joy.

Wishing all of yous and all of yours safe travelling and hearty dinners this Thanksgiving. Don't forget to wear the pants with the elastic waistbands.

Best,
Walshy

For al of you who love books, here's a wonderful speech by Umberto Eco on the subject:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/665/bo3.htm

"To build, or better to rebuild, today one of the greatest libraries of the world might sound like a challenge, or a provocation. It happens frequently that in newspaper articles or academic papers some authors, facing the new computer and internet era, speak of the possible "death of books". However, if books are to disappear, as did the obelisks or the clay tablets of ancient civilisations, this would not be a good reason to abolish libraries. On the contrary, they should survive as museums conserving the finds of the past, in the same way as we conserve the Rosetta Stone in a museum because we are no longer accustomed to carving our documents on mineral surfaces.

Yet, my praise for libraries will be a little more optimistic. I belong to the people who still believe that printed books have a future and that all fears à propos of their disappearance are only the last example of other fears, or of milleniaristic terrors about the end of something, the world included."

Happy Thanksgiving. Hope you guys get the best part of the wishbone. And if you're vegans, I hope the Vurkey still satisfies.

(Me? I will hunt the turkey down, rip off the plastic outer casing, remove the pre-packaged entrails, stuff it full of sundries, and roast that mutha til it's done. By God.)

And Cookie and Michael...well said.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Hope it's a good one for everyone.

Take care,
Billy

Seuss and Thanksgiving
Michael: I couldn't agree with you more. The merchandizing of the "Cat..." movie is enough to make one gag. The cat is selling everything from crackers to toilet bowl cleaners. I'm really not sure Geisel would have approved.

The tough part is trying to explain to my kids why I will NOT take them to see this movie. To them, it just looks funny. They essentially feel that I'm depriving them of "culture." I actually read an article that said, "Well, of course the adults hate it---it was made to entertain kids." Well, maybe I'm just a stodgy old fuddy-duddy, but I rather look on the work of Seuss as classic children's literature. I do not like it being toyed with. To me it doesn't look funny. It looks pathetic and overblown. That awful Grinch remake with Carrey was bad enough, but this is worse. I don't always pay attention to reviews, but one I read (I can't remember if it was the NYTimes or Salon) talked about how this movie feels the need to explain the magic of the talking fish and of the cat. There is no need to "explain" the magic in Seuss. It's just there. That made me decide there was no need to spend my money on this.

But yes, the thing that has been most distressing to me is the advertising. Maybe I wouldn't be so upset if the merchandisding coincided with the release of some sort of box-set of Seuss's books instead of this film bastardization of "The Cat...". So I just say, "No" to my children and tell them that they'll be perfectly free to rent it with their own money someday. I will not watch it ever if I can possibly help it. Just from the trailers, my opinion is that Mike Myers has turned the cat into something creepy.

Ah! That rant felt good. It's good for the digestion to get these things off one's chest. And speaking of digestion: HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all and sundry! We'll be having a bit smaller feast than anticipated because my poor father and stepmother were in a car accident on their way here from Maine last night. Fortunately, neither one of them was physically hurt but we'll be missing them at our table this year.

May you and your loved ones have safe travel and may you all enjoy the feast!!!

On Geisel Abuse...
I have to say that I don't so much mind the fact that Howard and Myers are mining Dr. Seuss for material; they paid for the rights and they get the chance to make their art, like everybody else. What seems almost unholy to me is to see that beloved image of The Cat In The Hat all over the fucking television selling every piece of shit corporate scumwad product they can make a dime from! It's awful... I can only hope that whomever sold off the marketing rights to Geisel's work should grow upside down in the ground like a turnip.

As for all the Thanksgiving wishes around here, well, consider them seconded from Blumland. Thanksgiving here is the biggest party of the year -- since Alia and I seem to pick up strays like a Hoover picks up lint, we always throw a dinner for all the people we know who don't have family or are far from home, so I get to cook for three days and see a roomful of smiles and distended bellies. Today I made two pies, four pumpkin cheesecakes and about 200 rolls, tomorrow is eight side dishes, then Thursday is a bird the size of Godzilla.

And in spite of this messed-up world we live in, I find myself truly grateful for all the wonderful people and things in my life. That includes you bozos, too!

Even Frank.

Have a fun and safe holiday, all!

Michael (and Alia, of course)

No dead Kennedys here. Nope.


Is he gone?


Are you sure?



Are you sure you're sure?







FOOOOOD FIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!


And a Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Chuck

Brevity!? Brevity?

Huh...brevity.

Yes...well...as I was saying...

I feel once we get into listing tragedies that effect us personally - even Lennon (and, as with Brian, that one was a terrible experience for me as well) - we begin to forget why losing Kennedy was so profoundly different. His death - and the way it took place - affects the social and political landscape to this day. Even the entrenched attitudes of today's generation are an indirect consequence of that November. For EXACTLY the reasons Harlan articulated in his post a ways back (which I didn't spot until after my last post); take another look at it. It's the reason I went for Church's jugular when he talked about this one guy "whom we need to forget and move on", without any grasp of what it meant.

In this sense, the only loss I can say pains me as much is Robert Kennedy...because he represented the last chance this country had. After that thugs, goon squads, corporate greed, and cold-blooded indifference would control all that you see and hear.

And that's a wrap.

Hoffaburgers
Frank, my father must have been asked about Hoffa's fate more often than I heard vampire jokes from people who learned I went to Transylvania University. He had a stock answer.

He insisted Hoffa was probably ground up into a big meat lot and distributed widely. He didn't claim to know it--he just said it was the most likely answer. Then he'd make some nasty comments about Chuckie O'Brien.

I met Hoffa as a tad, but it was so long ago, I just remember a big grin and a quick brush-off. Other than that, my only contact with the world of the Teamsters was in graduate school, when I found myself living just a building away from Jackie Presser's daughter. We never spoke.

Still, I have a framed picture of Hoffa, autographed to my father, alongside a letter granting the Supreme Court appeal. It's a great conversation piece for us old farts. Younger folks see it on the wall and ask who Hoffa is. Time to wear my trousers rolled.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Remember--it's a no hamburger day.

pathetic whining
How's this for bad timing...

I miss the best summer for years in the UK, stuck working in Kuwait.

I miss the (typically) best weather in Kuwait, stuck in the UK.

I get no holiday time for Thanksgiving, not celebrated in the UK.

I get no holiday for EID (holiday at the end of Ramadan) because of not being in Kuwait.

I will probably be in Kuwait just in time to have no holiday for Christmas, since it is not celebrated.

I really gotta work on my schedule! ;-)

Brian, I think it was a lone gunman, but with multiple personalities.

Maybe it was a complexly drawn suicide plot.

I'd put money on the Termanator.

----------

Nice article about the Washington REDSKINS debate.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=4553

Tell an Indian today that you and your country are sorry, before throwing the turkey carcass into the void.

The Performing Twelve
Sometimes you do irrational things for rational reasons. Sometimes you do rational things for irrational reasons. I'm not sure where this falls, but yesterday my wife, Laurie, and I flew to L.A.X., picked up our car rental, checked into our hotel, drove to the IKEA in Burbank, drove 33 miles from the IKEA store in just under 90 minutes to the WGA Theater (if we'd only taken surface streets instead of the freeways!), parked in the theater's garage, and entered just in time to hear the announcement, "Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats, we're about to begin!" Whooh!

It was a great play with a fantastic cast! We hung out with Harlan and Susan at the reception and when we asked Harlan to introduce us to Ed Asner, he graciously obliged us for which we are grateful. Our thanks to the Ellison's and to all of the cast, crew, and creators who made November 24th, 2003 a very special event.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all and sundry. May you all have wonderful things to be thankful for. Check you guys over the weekend, as I am off to NYC to be with family.

PAB

PS--Fine, you win. The Kennedy assassination did not herald a loss of innocence for America. I apologize for the cliche. See how brief that was? Something else for which to be thankful, as brevity *IS* the soul of wit, after all.

A very fruitful and uplifting Thanksgiving to you all. After the rigors of long rehearsals and the performance last night, both Susan and I will be lying low for half a dozen days. So you just carry on without us for a bit; and I'll come look in on y'all again next week.

My regards to each and every, Harlan

On Context and Biography

A friend of mine told me he read that poisonous biography of John Lennon at the same time he read a biography of Adolph Hitler that happened to look at Hitler's family background to explain his monstrous activities. At the end of the day, he found that Hitler was coming off much better than Lennon. Biography is always a matter of context and perspective.

I think this is part of the problem with all the JFK biography. Womanizing and "Ian Fleming-esque" attitudes aside, Kennedy did not give us the Gulf of Ton Kin nor the Tet Offensive. He did not perpetrate secret bombings in Cambodia, break into the Watergate Hotel or fight two wars for Haliburton Oil.

Modern politics is more sordid than it's ever been, and before you guys jump on me, I know that Dulles was the head of the CIA during the Kennedy Administration and all the lovely things he did. The problem is that our covert politics have become our overt politics.

Despite this, I have to agree with Mark Walsh. America is a girl who keeps losing her virginity. How many times is this possible? We can no longer claim "loss of innocence," especially after the advent of Pax Americana politics.

Alas,

Steve Dooner

I lived in Oklahoma at the time of the bombing there [though I wasn't close to Oklahoma City itself] and have visited the site of the bombing a couple of times, once a year or so after it happened, and last year to visit the museum they have there now.
The museum really tore at my emotions. This was less than a year after 9/11 and they had a special memorial to all the NYC rescue workers who had helped in Oklahoma City who had died on 9/11. Several had.

There are a few people I know there who are a little resentful about 9/11 for what reason I'm not sure, maybe because they feel like they've been overshadowed, though I haven't heard that from anyone who actually lost someone in the bombing. The state is pursuing a capital murder case against Terry Nichols but I don't think most people are interested in going through it all again.

But I don't think it ranks with the "national traumas" as bad as it was, probably because it was so quickly resolved, and there never were any more attacks on that level from that sector of the lunatic fringe.

Brian,

There is no conspiracy debate - merely some individuals who've (take your pick):

1. Been relying on outdated forensics and bad science

2. Come up with a theory, then worked backwards, bending every event to twist into it.

3. Just plain don't trust anybody, and assume that the government, Mafia or Joe DiMaggio had something to do with it.

Really, that sad pathetic nobody Oswald acted alone. All the evidence points towards it (and I'd like to thank ABC, btw, for their wonderful show last Thursday dissecting the evidence and showing how every theory about magic bullets and grassy knolls is 100% wrong).

Regards,
Joseph

Hey, Harlan, got a question for ya: How do you stand on the Kennedy assassination debate? Deranged loner? Mafia? CIA? Right-wing cabal? (Not planning on debating the issue; personally, I lean towards "lone gunman" because it helps me avoid people who _want_ to argue at length. Just curious.)

Okay, more on Kennedy and traumatic events. I was only nine months old when Kennedy was killed, so my exposure to the whole thing came through my mom's obsession with the man. Every time they re-ran the funeral footage, she'd start this horrible crying. I could get drawn into the drama as well. In fact, if you want to read about a national trauma even further back in time, I'd recommend William Manchester's magnificent narrative of the death of Franklin Roosevelt in _The Glory and the Dream_.

But the event which probably marked _me_ above all wasn't Kennedy, or the Challenger disaster, or even 9/11. It was the murder of John Lennon.

I was in high school, and I'd just started to discover Lennon's solo albums. Lennon and Yoko Ono had just released a new album, his first in five years, their first actual collaboration billed to both of them, and Lennon was singing about the joys of his life: reaching 40, having a son, having a marriage that gave him unending joy.

Now, this was happening just when Reagan had won the Presidency. So late 1980 had all the characteristics of the Passing of the Light, when filth like Meese and Falwell and Robertson looked as though they were going to plunge our country into debt, fear, and terror. So the return of John Lennon-- a happy, healthy, mature Lennon, his wit undimmed, his talent secure, a man who'd fought his way past human shitpiles like Thurmond and Mitchell and Nixon just to live in America-- had such promise.

And then some demented Jesus-shouter murdered him.

That was one of the worst days of my life. I had to go into school, where I was pretty much universally hated, with the sick realization that genuinely _evil_ forces were at work in the world. Only bright spot that day was my English teacher, Bob Canzanese, devoting our entire session talking about what Lennon meant to him. (He was a great teacher. He's still there, too. I should send him a letter or something.)

The _Challenger_ was a horrible technical accident. Kurt Cobain killed _himself_, long before he could really evolve into someone greater than his talent. It wasn't until 9/11 that anything happened that _could_ be worse than Lennon's murder. That's one that marked the entire world.

I was going to post something about Deus Ex 2, a computer game demo I'm very disappointed in, with some thoughts on what a truly interesting computer game'd be like. But I'm a bit choked up right now.

I have nothing more to add to the discussions of JFK's murder. I do think sometimes it helps to take a good hard look at a traumatic event and the effect it had on the country and the world. I wonder what people will say about 9/11 fourty years from now.

Ben,

If you want a humorous look at advertising from the inside, as well as a look at early television and late radio comedy, I'd recommend looking up Stan Freberg's autobiography, "It Only Hurts When I Laugh". Freberg created an advertising firm whose coat of arms had the slogan, "Ars Gratis Pecuniae" (sp?). Freberg's unofficial slogan was also "More truth in advertising than the client had in mind". His book illustrates the utter lack of imagination he encountered in an industry where one got ahead more by stabbing a colleague in the back than through talent. One of his satirical pieces, "Grey Flannel Hat Full of Teenage Werewolves" was a send-up of the business that probably made most of his money.

Chuck

Occasionally I meet people who tell me they cannot empathize with the impact of Kennedy's murder because they weren't around at the time. I find this very disconcerting.

The tragedy took place a couple years before I was born. But the massive documentary footage I've seen in the course of a decade (bolstered by several courses covering the period) allowed me to relive the horror and understand what it all meant. The emotion is overwhelming; utterly devastating; and profound...because, as a journalist I was listening to last night put it, this was the first time in history the nation shared a traumatic collective experience, thanks to the medium of t.v. which was still very much in its infancy. The cameras follow almost every insane moment from the book depository in Dallas to the bullet blasted into Oswald to expressions of horror and pain and finally the burials of Kennedy and his assassin virtually juxtaposed. In the sense of the media being the nation's eyes, this was the FIRST 9/11; it brought the nation together in a way that was never possible before. (Sometime, I urge you to look at the comprehensive coverages back-to-back; the parallels may blow your mind.) For me, the shock is encapsulated by that video of Walter Cronkite officially announcing Kennedy's passing, in which he wavers for a second as he realizes the unthinkable had happened. I'm fascinated by the whole damn thing.

You didn't have to be there to empathize.

Frank: well...yes, I think you DO need WAR AND PEACE. You made factually inaccurate statements back there and even the way you sized things up just now seems to miss something. If I were you, if you DON'T want your comments to be taken at face value, I would learn to expound better.

Mark,

I agree with your post. It was very much how I reacted. "We lost our innocence", it seems to me, is one of those quaint cliches we repeat until we no longer think about what we're saying. Most tragedies happen because we're so naive (or naively arrogant, which is practically a redundancy) in some crucial way, allowing the conditions for them. They're all linked by the lip-biting sentiment, "if only we had done that". In other words, the Kennedy tragedy would have been like so many others prior if that's all there was to it. What made this tragedy so different is the question. What relevance do we find in it today? Why do I find it affecting ME the way it does?

RE: An Old Man Speaks
Harlan:

Agreed, it's a very different world we would live in that the world that could have been.

We were talking over lunch, recalling how long it took for some to fully grasp the news when JFK died, and seeing the accused assasin killed. The suddenness of events, not unlike 9/11, leaving people stunned for a moment, then asking, "Did that really just happen?"

The converation ranged from the biographies and articles, books and films, conspiracy theories (including Oliver Stone's "JFK" and long before it "Executive Action"). I did a little mental math and said, "You realize that the Republicans, by the time the election comes around, will have been in the White House two out of every three years for the last thirty-six years?"

Yeah, Nixon, Ford (don't forget the only man to be Commander in Chief who was elected to no office higher than senator), Reagan (and the recent gutless decision by CBS), Bush and Bush the Sequel. It really hits home when we read reports that the White House is banning coverage of the bodies being brought back from Iraq (from the war that was declared "over" several months ago). Young men and women being killed, many with weapons sold to Iraq during the Reagan/Bush years. Or look at it people dying because of unfinished business from twelve years ago. Them there's Watergate, Iran-Contra, Whitewater, Enron, the facade of "no child left behind" and on and on...

So there's no misunderstanding, there is no claim that Jack and Bobby (or Martin or Malcolm) were saintly and perfect. They just chose to take a good hard look at "conventional wisdom" and question it. May we have a leader that does not believe that the business of America is Business and War or that the dead, the poor and the unemployed are "acceptable losses."

"Some look at things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I prefer to dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?'"

RE: An Old Man Speaks
Harlan:

Agreed, it's a very different world we would live in that the world that could have been.

We were talking over lunch, recalling how long it took for some to fully grasp the news when JFK died, and seeing the accused assasin killed. The suddenness of events, not unlike 9/11, leaving people stunned for a moment, then asking, "Did that really just happen?"

The converation ranged from the biographies and articles, books and films, conspiracy theories (including Oliver Stone's "JFK" and long before it "Executive Action"). I did a little mental math and said, "You realize that the Republicans, by the time the election comes around, will have been in the White House two out of every three years for the last thirty-six years?"

Yeah, Nixon, Ford (don't forget the only man to be Commander in Chief who was elected to no office higher than senator), Reagan (and the recent gutless decision by CBS), Bush and Bush the Sequel. It really hits home when we read reports that the White House is banning coverage of the bodies being brought back from Iraq (from the war that was declared "over" several months ago). Young men and women being killed, many with weapons sold to Iraq during the Reagan/Bush years. Or look at it people dying because of unfinished business from twelve years ago. Them there's Watergate, Iran-Contra, Whitewater, Enron, the facade of "no child left behind" and on and on...

So there's no misunderstanding, there is no claim that Jack and Bobby (or Martin or Malcolm) were saintly and perfect. They just chose to take a good hard look at "conventional wisdom" and question it. May we have a leader that does not believe that the business of America is Business and War.

"Some look at things as they are and ask, 'Why?' I prefer to dream of things that never were and ask, 'Why not?'"

Ladder. Sowwy.

Re Kennedy. Not to second-guess an Old Man who Speaketh, but... well, here goes.

There _was_ a different spirit in those days, and I like to think that it continued to flower during that decade _despite_ the loss of Kennedy. His death certainly _deranged_ something in the American psyche, and maybe that came out through bullshit like the Weathermen. But there was just too much good stuff in existence, ready to bloom, and Kennedy's rise was as much a product as it was a driving force. (I do wonder if the Beatles would have been as big as they were if they'd come to America while Kennedy was alive.)

And Kennedy himself was a definite Change of Pace as far as politicians go. Let's put this in simple terms. Outside of Franklin Roosevelt, I can't think of any Chief Executive I'd rather have as a dinner guest than JFK. He was intelligent, cultured, a strong sense of irony, and by all intimate accounts (save Angie Dickinson's) a Pretty Nifty Guy.

Yes (Frank), I'm well aware of the problems with his administration, and even his personal shortcomings. But there haven't been many Presidents with whom I feel I could have a decent conversation. (Okay, I could talk wood shop with Jimmy Carter, who has pictures of his hand-made clamps in this month's issue of _Fine Woodworking_.)

That said, I also feel that much of the spirit of that time would probably have gone _beyond_ JFK. Here's a nice, paradoxical situation for y'all. In the early 1960s, we have a young, seemingly energetic President who reflects a lot of the better qualities of the generation coming to adulthood. The young men and women who wrote the Port Huron Statement are people who were prepared to address the problems of our country head-on, with hearts on fire and brains on ice, and I suspect that most of them felt that, in Kennedy, here was someone who could appreciate their concerns.

But Kennedy _himself_ was not a radical. He was a Cold Warrior who'd worked with Joseph McCarthy, and who'd campaigned against Richard Nixon with inflated claims of missile gaps. His efforts at Civil Rights were halfhearted at best. This was a guy who had to deal with figures like Richard Russell and even Lyndon Johnson to get the nomination, and with Hoover when in office. I think we can understand why Kennedy probably wasn't as forthright as, say, Martin Luther King. So, if Kennedy was an inspiring figure, I fully suspect that the people he _did_ inspire would have moved on beyond him. Maybe he'd have kept pace, or accomplished more in the wake of their cultural progress. And it's hard to imagine Kennedy turning into a retrograde figure of the 1960s, as Hubert Humphrey did.

I think it's reasonable to say that, had Kennedy lived, the radicalism of the 1960s would have been of a very different sort. I suspect more of the New Left would have operated within the system, as lawyers, poll watchers, voting organizers, consumer advocates, Civil Rights advocates, and much more. It's possible that they would have exerted more influence in foreign policy, and encouraged a very different outcome in Vietnam. It's possible that Americans would have been, simply, _better_ human beings, instead of fragmenting into hysterical politics, or turning inwards and nursing the resentments that brought Nixon and Reagan to power.

But I'm really reluctant to put all of that on the shoulders of JFK. After all, I certainly _can't_ know this for certain. There's just as much myth-making over Kennedy as there is over Reagan "ending the Cold War." And wailing about a lost Golden Age doesn't help one's mood very much. But JFK or not, we ought to be trying to re-orient ourselves into building a decent civilization again, and asking ourselves "What Went Wrong?" only to understand what we have to do to make things right.

Deb, I never said I was glad that Kennedy died; far from that. I just think we dwell on certain things way too long after the fact; especially the conspiracy about the assassination, and the dark boogans at the the top of the latter of intrigue.

Certain things like the Holocaust are different, because that affected a bunch of innocent people, and represented a dark part of history we need never repeat.

Kennedy is dead, we cannot bring the man back. We can remember, we can mourn, we can light candles or firecrackers. But let's not act like that one moment was the worst moment ever to grace American life. Let's not forget, but let's also move on to making the world better.

You inviting me over for Thanksgiving, Todd and Deb? Love nibbles.

-------------

Krislov, so, where then is Hoffa buried? Come on, you know, fess up? Wink.

-----------

Rob, I didn't need War And Peace. I understand what Kennedy was about. I just don't like our cannonization of elites. Gore Vidal, who was Kennedy's buddy might agree.

Some short hand truth for you comrade:

http://www.fair.org/extra/best-of-extra/invasion-newspeak.html

But I still love you pookie.

------------

Hope everyone has a safe and peaceful holiday. Truly.

Mark Walsh: Hey, at least your generation HAD some innocence to lose. My generation, so warmly referred to as Generation X, never had any. I remember being cynical about the government as early as 4th grade (the year Reagan was elected). I don't think people in my age bracket EVER had any illusions about the honesty of our leaders, the corruption of politics, or the trustworthiness of anyone in a position of national authority.

Sure, 9/11 scared the crap out of us, but most people I know immediately wondered how much our government knew and was involved in that disaster, and how much our governmental policies of late decades brought such a tragedy down on our heads. It may have put a damper on our feelings of security in our own borders, but there really was no innocence for us to lose.

Disclaimer: This is not a post intended to read like "oh, poor Gen X, we never had a childhood." We have had many advantages our parents lacked, and I realize that. I'm just saying that we were fed cynicism and skepticism with mother's milk, and Generations Y and Z (for lack of a better name) are even more lacking in the natural naivete of youth than we were...

All of the above was meant only to back up my claim that JFK's assassination WAS a turning point for American trust in government, not to open up another can of worms about 9/11, etc. Hell, I won't be around to read any posts after tomorrow until the weekend, so don't go nuts on me, OK?

PAB

When Kennedy died I was 5. I attended Kindergarten at St.Paul Lutheran School in Austin. After Dallas, JFK was supposed to COME to Austin. Our Kindergarten class was scheduled to meet him.
In my 5 year old Cindy mind-- I thought that he was coming to Austin solely to meet me and my class (in that order). I was sitting in front of the television, (I think) As The World Turns was on. I remember Walter Cronkite crying. My father hadn't lived with us since I was small and it was the first time I'd ever seen a man cry. It was not comforting. The neighbor lady didn't help matters either. She came over in tears--her red hair and her face nearly the same color. I couldn't imagine anyone being dead-- let alone someone I was supposed to be meeting.

Later, when I saw the coffin in the funeral procession and I thought about President Kennedy being in that box, I cried.

Harlan's correct. There hasn't been one to match him-- not one.

Cindy






My loose ends...
Peg, you're welcome
:)

Jim Davis-- I love it when you quote me.

Frankie,
You bein' bad again? Be sweet! You KNOW you want to be.
;)

Jon Stover,
Thank YOU for the pat on the back for my erstwhile court case.
:)

Chuck,
I love ya.

Cindy

BRIAN,

Point taken.

HARLAN,

"Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Bush Sr. and the Shrub, and even Clinton (I omit poor Carter, who tried but served with limited ability), none of them would have happened, had JFK lived out his term."

That's a pretty bold statement, but somehow I believe it.

AN OLD MAN SPEAKS

For all your parvenu, arriviste, Johnnies-&-Janies-Come-Lately nattering, life under JFK was far sweeter, infinitely more humane and intelligent than it has been under ANY other administration since. "Adventurism," as you pillory him, notwithstanding. If those who despise our Constitution had wanted to turn the direction of our national humanity 180 degrees, they could not have done it more efficaciously than by butchering John F. Kennedy and his brother. Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Bush Sr. and the Shrub, and even Clinton (I omit poor Carter, who tried but served with limited ability), none of them would have happened, had JFK lived out his term.

I was there. I know what I'm talking about. It is a sadder, more desperate, meaner nation now than it would have been.

Weeping for my land and its people, Harlan Ellison

Frank, Frank, Frank. What the hey are we to do with you?

PA Berman: Something you said in your last post made me laugh so hard the coffee flew out of my nose! Not a pretty sight. But I had been thinking the EXACT same thing.
To All: Hope you have a happy and warm Thanksgiving. That goes for you too Frank!

Rob,

One small addition to your well-done essay on Kennedy and civil rights - the Kennedy administration did finally ram through the integration of the army, which had been recommended by Truman but had languished for a decade-and-a-half.

Regards,
Joseph

Yikes!

I know Jack Kennedy was a philandering cold warrior, but JEEZ!

The guy had his brains splattered all over his wife for Crissakes!

I think you guys would show more sympathy to Hitler after he sprayed his own brains over Eva.

Maybe the loss of American innocence--that my buddy Mark Walsh refers to--is happening right now on these boards when nobody can ever say a damn decent thing about anything or anybody.

Oh, the humanity!

Steve "Not a fan of Kennedy's Cold War adventurism either" Dooner

I watch a little television here and there, but mainly reruns of older shows. Haven't watched network TV on a regular basis in a few years. For a long time the television was just to watch videotapes on--it'll probably be that way again soon. Of course, the Internet can be as bad as television, maybe worse.

Ben wrote:
'I came across a VERY disturbing paragraph while reading "THE QUESTION OF REALISM," by Robert Stam, from FILM & THEORY: AN ANTHOLOGY. I highlighted the passage in orange because it smashed the primary problem with contemporary commercials right on the nose:"

"'Yet the self-referentiality of commercials that deconstruct themselves or parody other commercials serves only to trigger a state of relaxed expectation which renders the viewer more permeable to the commercial message. Indeed, advertisers have such faith in this kind of lucrative self-mockery that ABC took to tongue-in-cheek denunciations of the negative effects of it's own programming: '8 Hours a Day, That's All We Ask' reads one panel, and the next: 'Don't Worry, You've Got Billions of Brain Cells.''"

Ben, don't let stuff like this disturb you. It's not really very different from bullshit like those "Subliminal Seduction" hoaxes, where advertising people airbrushed words like "Sex" onto photos of ice cubes and Ritz crackers.

The facts are as follows. The commercials make fun of themselves because of several reasons. One, they can be funny. Two, they are created by people who _work_ in commercials, and they get punchy, and have to vent about the cliches and routine tropes sometimes. Three, these are gags which people _outside_ the industry find amusing, too.

Look at that first sentence again: "Yet the self-referentiality of commercials that deconstruct themselves or parody other commercials serves only to trigger a state of relaxed expectation which renders the viewer more permeable to the commercial message." Sure, right: doesn't this quasi-technical verbiage paint a wonderful word-picture right out of _Max Headroom_, where viewers are merely passive receptors, little more than vapid X-boxes awaiting a new input of RAM? If brainwashing were only _that simple_...

I mean, feel free to see most human beings that way... but then demonstrate why you're _not_ that way.

Ben,

This is more observation than suggestion, but I got sick of TV at one point and threw the damn thing away. Didn't buy another one for eight of the best years of my life.

Lee

Kennedy &c
Frank, it's fun to play iconoclast, I know, but you're trying too hard. Hell, the guy's administration wiretapped our phone (dad was one of Hoffa's attorneys), but we cared when he died.

You can't just blow off the assassination of a President. Even a President you dislike. When Kennedy died, this country hadn't lost a Prexy to an assassin's bullet in over 60 years. What was relatively common in the 19th century (three Presidents assassinated at 20 year intervals) became unknown in the 20th. It was a shock. It was a shock the country _shouldn't_ get over. So don't mourn Kennedy, that's fine; at least mourn for the America that existed before he was murdered, because it died with him.

And I'd say the same if Bush were killed, mind you, much as I despise all his works.

But the thing about the "where were you when...?" question is that it seems to be a cryogenic chamber for inane trivia. We remember utterly meaningless events because they were surrounded by something meaningful. Instead of forgetting everything but the meaningful event, we freeze the rest into eternity.

As for me, I was 11, in the sixth grade. My school had a cheap solution to the state requirements for musical appreciation: the whole grade sat in the large auditorium at the front of the school, where a hi-fidelity (but not stereo, not yet) set-up would play classical music recordings. I was really getting into Beethoven's 9th when the principal walked up on stage, pulled the needle off with a disc-raping screetch, and told us the news.

And you know what I remember best? It was my turn to feed the class' pet hamster. Everyone got a turn, and I'd been eagerly waiting for mine for over two months. But I resented the hamster. I was pissed at the hamster. As if he'd killed Kennedy. A stupid reaction, an obvious case of misdirected angst. Little did I know I'd remember that stupid hamster 40 years later because of this.

On another topic, Chris, my mother passed at 47. I know just how you feel. Way, way too young.

--Alex

V-Life for the masses?
Work and life and all those wonderful things have kept me from lurking here on a regular basis, so...if perchance I missed a message that is now lost in the sea of archived posts, has there been any news on the ability of us common laypersons not subscribed to Variety to get a copy of the issue of V-Life with Harlan's new essay in it?

(and, perhaps, as a public service, if there is definitive information on how to order it, maybe it could be put as one of those locked posts that stay readable at the beginning of each page, so that a maximum number of people can see how to give their money over for new Harlan material).

thanks,
Jason Michelitch

I came across a VERY disturbing paragraph while reading "THE QUESTION OF REALISM," by Robert Stam, from FILM & THEORY: AN ANTHOLOGY. I highlighted the passage in orange because it smashed the primary problem with contemporary commercials right on the nose:

"Yet the self-referentiality of commercials that deconstruct themselves or parody other commercials serves only to trigger a state of relaxed expectation which renders the viewer more permeable to the commercial message. Indeed, advertisers have such faith in this kind of lucrative self-mockery that ABC took to tongue-in-cheek denunciations of the negative effects of it's own programming: '8 Hours a Day, That's All We Ask' reads one panel, and the next: 'Don't Worry, You've Got Billions of Brain Cells.'"

If you can't even trust parody, who can you trust? This is why I NEVER liked SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE. Too many guest celebrities trying to make themselves look clever. "See? SEE?! I can make fun of myself too!! I'm a nice guy, once you get to know me!! EVERYBODY WORSHIP ME AS A GOD!! ON YOUR KNEES, PEASANTS!!"

The Age of Innocence?
The JFK Assassination marked the end of our innocence? I thought WWI saw the end of our innocence. No, sorry: that was WWII...or was it the Great Depression? the Civil War? the Oaklahoma Bombing? Watergate?

Robert Hughes got it right: the end of the American Innocence is a self-perpetuating myth. Or at best, it is a generational thing - one generation's JFK is another's WTC.

Mark

Justin:

Thanks for the Waldorf link! I'm going to try to make it over there if the gods of traffic and my schedule make it possible...

I'm dreadfully unhappy I can't make it out to LA for tomorrow's performance, but I look forward to hearing about how things go. THE WALDORF CONFERENCE sounds like it'll be a great show. Here's to a successful evening.

Jealous of all attendees,

J

Chris: I too was moved by your post about your parents. Thanks for being brave enough to post that. I know what you mean about hoping for an afterlife so you can think of the people you love being there. If it's any comfort to you, I'll believe in it for you.

Frank: The reason the Kennedy assassination is such a big deal to so many people, regardless of party affiliation, is the fact that it marked the end of American innocence and gave rise to that pervasive unease and distrust of the government that is standard today. JMO.

Rob: Do you put out Cliff's Notes for your posts?

PAB

UH, FRANK ..... FRANK CHURCH ..... YO, FRANK-EE ....

I did not write a "blurb" for the film THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT.

You gonna have to start reading much more closely, lad. I was commissioned to write a short essay on Chaos Theory, to be used in conjunction with the film. That's what I did; no more, no less: an essay on an extrapolative aspect of Chaos Theory. Nothing to do with the movie, pro or con. I recommended nothing. I didn't even MENTION the film in my piece.

How could I "write a blurb" for a film I haven't seen? And do you, for a moment, think I would write a blurb for a film, a book, or the Second Coming itself if I didn't feel the work was sufficiently noteworthy to attach my name to it? After all this time, Frank, and all we've meant to each other ... do you still have no understanding of how deep run my ethical imperatives? No time EVER do I attach my imprimateur to something I will not personally stand behind.

With clean hands, and a similar cringe at the persona of Kutcher, I remain, most respectfully,

Yr. pal, Harlan

I wasn't yet alive when JFK was assassinated...I guess for my generation the closest thing would be 9/11, or maybe the first time the Space Shuttle was lost [something which I didn't think had much impact on me until it happened again back in February.] But as far as a single individual's assassination that had huge implications on the world or at least on the country he led and the surrounding region, I think the closest thing in recent times was probably the assassination of Rabin back in 1995.

11/22/63
Todd asked, "So, where were you when Kennedy was shot? What do you remember?"

When Kennedy was killed, I was 9 and in school. When the news reached our classroom, the poor teacher - who probably wasn't much more than a kid herself - was so shaken with grief that she left the room weeping. For a few long strange minutes no adult was at the helm and my classmates and I drifted to the steps outside the classroom door, where I heard one of my pals say "It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy."

As much as losing a president to a sniper's bullet, that's what I remember from that day: an authority figure's loss of control, and a child's expression of viciousness towards a murdered stranger. Every now and then rude reality breaks free and disrupts the show, and not even the quickest players can ad-lib their way through the wild scramble.

Oh Chris,
You made me cry. I'm still trying to see the screen through this watery veil but I wanted to tell you how beautiful that was and how touched I am by what you wrote. Your parents were so blessed to have a child like you-- one who will never forget who they were and what they were to eachother and to you. So many never know what it is like to be adored and to adore-- you do and so did your parents.

I know you don't believe, and I don't think that matters. I'm sure they're together and not too far away. It isn't over. God must love you alot to give you folks like that.

Love to you from me,
Cindy

Frank's usual shorthand for the facts:

"Just for almost blowing up the world with the Cuban Missle Crisis is enough to not mourn the guy"

...and where was Nikita in all this, Frank? Don't you think Kennedy had a little help from the opposite end of the field?

Kennedy WOULD go on to build more Polaris missles than anyone in the world. But I think it served the U.S. to become the greatest global phallic symbol in history. Having the BIGGEST does a country proud.

Bearing in mind little more can be said in behalf of most other presidents we've had, I agree about how the mythology embroiders the Kennedy figure. Yet, to abbreviate the facts for the sake of demonizing JFK serves to distort things just as much.

Truly, it was BOBBY Kennedy who, in the course of so many traumatic events, would become a lightening rod for the civil rights and anti-war movements. And the mythologies aside, the mind-staggering ironies attached to the Kennedy history (right out of Aristotle's definitions of drama and tragedy) are irresistible. Whatever apathy he had in the 50's and early 60's about civil rights, RFK was the one with the brains - enough to re-evaluate himself and the complexity of what unfolded.

But I digress. WHAT, bearing in mind the complexity of the political landscape of the time, did JFK actually accomplish on the homefront (even if it was a posthumous achievement)?

Once Jack Kennedy took office he could either ignore discrimination or he could act. From the documentaries I've been watching (the piece on KCET'S THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE called THE KENNEDYS being by far the finest and most powerful ever made) he had promised in his campaign speeches to act swiftly if elected. But in 1960 the Civil Rights Commission made it very plain in clear statistics just how bad discrimination had affected the black community. In those days, it seemed no one in Whitey World gave a FUCK. This was a time in which housing for blacks was unacceptable by nearly 60%; wherein the infant mortality among blacks was twice that of whites; wherein property values would drop drastically just because a black family would move into a neighborhood. And no one seemed to give a fuck.

This means there was no public support for civil rights legislation. In a journalism course I took at Cal State recently the professor ran an excellent documentary which juxtaposed tv in those decades with the political landscape. It was ALL white and happy, reflecting NOTHING that was really going on in the country. I don't think the public had ANY connection with reality in the 50's and early 60's, except the success stories for whites. So...opinion polls indicated that in 1960 and 1961, civil rights was at the bottom of the list when people were asked "what needs to be done in America to advance society?" Kennedy WAS concentrating his domestic attention on improving health care and helping the lowest wage earners. Civil rights issues would only cloud the issue and disrupt progress in these areas. Kennedy tried to argue that improving health care and wages for the poor would effectively be civil rights legislation as they would benefit the most from these two.

So, what did Kennedy do to advance the cause of civil rights?

Once we understand how primitive things were at the time we have a more honest measuring stick to examine things. Kennedy put pressure on federal government organisations to employ more blacks in America’s equivalent of Britain’s Civil Service. Any who had been employed were usually in the lowest paid posts and in jobs that had little prospect of professional progress. Kennedy did more than any president before him to have more blacks appointed to federal government posts.

When he appointed his brother as attorney general his tactic would be to use the courts as a way of enforcing already passed civil rights legislation. No southern court could really argue against laws that were already in print - though they were very good at interpreting the law in their own special ways. As a result the Justice Department brought many, many law suits against local officials for obstructing African Americans who wished to register their right to vote. Local officials from Louisiana were threatened with prison for contempt when they refused to hand over money to newly desegregated schools. Such a threat prompted others in Atlanta, Memphis and New Orleans to hand over finance without too many.

Kennedy achieved what appeared as small gestures. In American football, the Washington Redskins were the last of the big teams to refuse to sign blacks. Their stadium was federally funded and Kennedy ordered that they were no longer allowed to use the stadium and would have to find a new one. The team very quickly signed up African American players.

Kennedy created the Commission on Equal Employment Opportunity. Its job was to ensure that all people employed with the federal government had equal employment opportunities; it also required all those firms that had contracts with the federal government to do the same if they were to win further federal contracts.

In many ways, Kennedy’s hands were tied by both national and international events. The reaction of the KKK to the Freedom Rides of 1961 was shown on national t.v. and clearly shocked the public. But public polls showed that they believed that the Freedom Rides should not have taken place as they ("oh, my god!") provoked...even though federal law was on the Riders side! That's how sick things were. Kennedy DID distance himself here because involvement in the Freedom Riders affair would have been politically sensitive, given it had no sizeable public mandate.

In terms of voter registration, Kennedy’s administration did nothing in its first year in office. On the advice of his brother he claimed that it was strictly the duty of the states to reform this area. Here Kennedy was no doubt attempting to win the support of those who believed that federal power was too big and trespassing in too many areas - especially the right of states to govern themselves as laid out in the Constitution.

Then, in the violence seen at Albany, I believe in 1961, Kennedy again did nothing as he believed that the trouble had been precipitated by the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee. In fact, he called them sobs.

In the 1950’s little was seen of black militancy. Progress, albeit on paper, had been made under both Truman and Eisenhower. The lack of obvious improvements under the Kennedy administration saw the start of black militancy. Martin Luther King pointed out that when those in power won't do the work you have to do it yourself.

It was James Meredith, who applied to a white-only college and got turned down, who forced Kennedy's hand. This was was a man who had served in the US Air Force for years and had been rejected because of his colour. Meredith got legal support add from the NAACP and the Supreme Court found in his favor. When he went to enrol, Bobby Kennedy sent 500 marshals to ensure that law and order was maintained. It was not. Nearly 200 of the marshals were injured and two were shot by those who were adamant that Meredith would not go to college. To maintain law and order, something the state government could not do, John Kennedy federalized the Mississippi National Guard and sent federal troops to the university. Meredith successfully enrolled.

Kennedy was further provoked into action by the 1963 Birmingham affair. The actions ordered by Bull Connor "sickened" Kennedy. The Justice Department was ordered to Birmingham by Bobby Kennedy and improvements quickly took place. Public facilities were desegregated and employment prospects for African Americans in Birmingham did improve somewhat.

The 1963 March on Washington was initially opposed by Kennedy as he believed that any march during his presidency would indicate that the leaders of the civil rights campaign were critical of his stance on civil rights. Kennedy also felt that the march could antagonise Congress when it was in the process of discussing his civil rights bill. A march might have been viewed by Congress as external pressure being put on them. Kennedy eventually endorsed the march when it was agreed that the federal government could have an input into it.

For a man who claimed that poor housing could be ended with the signing of the president's name, Kennedy did nothing. His Department of Urban Affairs bill was rejected by Congress and eventually only a weak housing act was passed which applied only to future federal housing projects.

Kennedy was a politician and he was acutely aware that Democrats were less than happy with a disproportionate amount of time being spent on civil rights issues when the Cold War was in full flight with Vietnam flaring up and the world settling down after the problems poised by Cuba.

Kennedy was also aware that southern Democrats were still powerful in the party (a TRUE bunch of assholes among the lowest order) and their wishes could not be totally ignored if the party was not to be split apart - or if Kennedy was not to get the party’s nomination for the 1964 election. However, there is no doubt that the violence that occurred in the South during his presidency horrified and angered him. Yet, for all the charisma that was attached to Kennedy’ name, he had a poor relationship with Congress and without their support nothing would become an act. Regrettably, he had to tread a fine line in the South. BUT...ya know what? He was also losing support in the north where it was felt that the administration was too concerned with the African Americans and forgetting about the majority of the people...the whites! So much for the plight of humanistic causes.

So, very much like Lincoln nearly a hundred years earlier (another Joe, incidentally, who was rather apathetic to the actual plight of blacks - who, if the South had agreed to keep the Union, would have tolerated legalized slavery in those states), Kennedy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. If he helped the blacks in the South, he lost the support of the powerful Democrats there. If he did nothing he faced world-wide condemnation especially after the scenes vividly seen in Birmingham. Even civil rights leaders in the South criticized Kennedy for doing too little. And, as pointed out, the whining white northerners felt that its problems were being ignored while the problems of the African Americans were being addressed.

You are also wrong, Frank, about Vietnam. The U.S. was still engaging the region with military advisors. Troops weren't sent in enmasse until 1965. And Kennedy himself, in an interview with Walter Cronkite, admitted having reservations about going further there. While I admit it's only speculation, it is believed Kennedy would have pulled out.

And I'm not going to allow you to forget that Kennedy's legacy of the Peace Corps was an important one too. For the first time we were sending volunteers to assist and council citizens of underveloped countries in the execution of industrial, agricultural, educational, and public-health services.

You like to use a verbal crossbow, Frank. But without facts it lacks the tensile cohesion to make the arrow fly right.

Frank, as I rein in my wife before she truly shows her colors and airmails herself to you to express her true feelings upon your head with stones and broadsword:

It's not about Kennedy. Except for those who truly embraced the 'Camelot' that he brought to lives looking for safety and glitter....the murder of Kennedy is an event that changed this country, for better or worse. They don't come along that often in modern times. Events happen everyday: some earn the thick red font on all the news channels, but they aren't life changing. Michael Jackson groping child number 750 is not an event that changes this country, but he gets the thick red font.

All the little things that people can look back on and identify as events that changed this country, are not events that changed the country. They are events that led to change, but not events that whalloped us in the face, spun us around and pointed us in a different direction.

Did Kennedy's murder do that? I can't say from my own gut because I did not yet have the lucid mind to appreciate the shock. But this anniversary is not about losing Kennedy to most people, it's about how a country was kicked in the ass and forced to choose one of the paths at the fork.

The towers falling was the only such event that happened in my lucid life. Doesn't matter what everyone thinks about how this country was affected. Whether we rode the saddle of jingoism or leapt to defend every airport search, things changed immediately.

Far be it from one of the few conservatives on this board to give a damn about Kennedy. He didn't mean anything to me because he was gone before I knew what a President was. But having lived the past 42 years in the U.S., I've gotten a pretty good idea of how shattering the moment was.

Try to set aside politics for a time and appreciate how the world changes around you when you breath the fresh air.

-TODD

Frank Church: What's it like to have such a simple mind? Must make life easier.

Great, more meaningless piffle about the JFK assasination. Face facts, the dude is stone cold dead; leave him in the ground, under the eternal flame and bugger off.

Just for almost blowing up the world with the Cuban Missle Crisis, is enough to not mourn the guy.

He did very little for civil rights, and his administration attacked South Vietnam--leaving the countryside in ruin. This guy was no hero, just a mystified elite, that weak tea liberals jack off to every year.

Plays the Dead Kennedys--REAL LOUD!!

----------

In the fantasy world, the only things that exist are the anxieties.

Todd Cassel: You and I are the same age, and it must be just about this time that we start pondering what is "old". And how we don't really FEEL "middle aged". And the events we remember (not the important world events, just things in our own lives)which are SO clear, every detail, what was said and where and who was wearing what...and then we say 'My God that was thirty years ago'....kind of like what Lee said about his grandmother, in her mind she still felt like she was 25, only her body felt old... anyway I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking about these things. I think.

Jon Stover:

I’ve really enjoyed the 2 disc ‘Greatest Hits’ album that’s in current release. It’s called ‘Eternelle, Les Plus Grandes Chansons d’Edith Piaf’ and has 43 songs in roughly chronological order spanning over her whole career. If you’ve never listened much to her, you might start with disc 1, track 14 ‘Autumn Leaves’, which is maybe one of the more accessible to a modern North American listener, being in English. From there to the end of the second disc the progression moves through a good sampling of styles and with ever better recording fidelity. After you’ve acclimated to her singing style, the earlier tracks are more approachable. I like the waltz time songs from the mid-40’s around track 10.

Tony Rabig:

Very little of my liberal arts education happened at school and in the matter of what to read next I’ve always depended on recommendations from friends. Like you, I focused on science fiction and related genres in my teens and twenties but have always been happy to try anything that someone I know has found rewarding. I’ll try James again using the route that you and Steve have mapped out – and maybe think of it more in terms of poetry. I’m 42 now, so maybe his time has come.

As for symbolism in writing, here’s a related bit from Steinbeck - from ‘Sweet Thursday’- that demonstrates symbolism's most important use: proving that you are a great writer that deserves to be studied by college students.

‘(Joe’s) book was going well. His hero had been born in a state of shock and nothing subsequent had reassured him. When a symbol wasn’t slapping him in the mouth, a myth was kicking his feet out from under him. (…) The pile of green manuscript was three inches thick, and Joe Elegant was beginning to plan his photograph for the back of the dust cover: open collar, he thought, and a small, wry smile, and one hand relaxed in front of him with an open poison ring on the third finger. He knew which reviewers he could depend on and why.‘

Seriously, I have always assumed that aside from intentionally allegorical works symbolic content should operate on a reader below the conscious level. Wouldn’t an awareness of symbolic elements while reading tend to raise a barrier between the reader and the direct impact of the story?

If you guys like Piaf. . .

If you folks like Edith Piaf, I really recommend the great Jean Sablon. "La Correspondence" is one of my all-time, favorite tunes, and Django Reinhardt plays superbly on many of Jean's early records.

-----------

ON TED GEISEL ABUSE: The Boston Globe reviewer said it best. "Though I know this movie will be a hit, I do not like it, not one little bit."

Chris,
Well, now you have some more people who will think of your mother on this date. I hope you can make peace with your memory of her passing. Wishing you well.

Where was I when JFK was shot? I was eight years old then. I was in third grade. First we heard Kennedy had been wounded and was being taken to the hospital. Then, I remember a lot of somber and crying teachers after the news of his death came through. I also remember a kid who made a clay effigy of Kennedy complete with a hole in his head. He then showed it to everyone and laughed. I sometimes wonder how that kid turned out.

Funny thing, though. I don't remember the Cuban Missile crisis. Not at all. I suspect my parents did their best to keep me away from that kind of news.

Chuck

So, this afternoon I got a phone call from my father about how the local farmer who'd rented out land from my father and had sat on the same local cemetery board with him for the last thirty years or more had died this morning (yesterday morning).

He was ninety, by the way, or would have been on Tuesday next -- which will probably be the funeral date.

So he got up, got dressed, and then he and his wife went shopping. Then they came back, and he went down to another farmer's place to see if there was anything to be done today (yesterday). There wasn't. So he went back home, and went out to look for the cat that wasn't supposed to get out but had anyway, as cats do. Couldn't find it. Came back in, sat down, had a stroke and was gone, very quickly. All before 10 a.m. or thereabouts.

He would have been ninety on Tuesday, and the best I can offer is this -- he went out a working farmer at the age of ninety, quickly and without any period of hospital time or anything like that. And about all I can come up with at this point is, rest in peace, John Cattel, 1913-2003.

Take care, Jon

Sorry for the double-post. My name is John, not Todd. Maybe twenty-four IS old, after all. Dementia is setting in. Next thing you know I'll be praising Anne Rice's prose.

Sorry, Todd, I wasn't around when Kennedy died. I'm twenty-four, and while that feels old I know it probably isn't.

Interesting article about JFK by, of all people, William F. Buckley. It's his latest column. Nice to read a conservative column that isn't devoted to bitching about Massachusetts and The Coming Destruction of Marriage.

What Nov 22 means to me
It is with all due respect that every year on this day, I say "Fuck JFK."

I have a good reason. On this date, now ten years ago, somebody IMPORTANT died, my mother, who was 42 years young. I can't believe it's been so long. In many ways, my life stopped that day and a whole new one started. Sometimes, it's difficult to remember life before Nov 22, 1993. I remember it almost like a movie about someone else's life.

She had fought cancer for four years. For a while, we thought she had won the battle. She went a whole year and a half with no signs of cancer. Then one day, a biopsy of what the doctor was certain was an innocuous cyst turned out to be malignant. Six months later, it had already spread to her lungs and her brain.

She said the most frightening moment for her was when she realized she could no longer sign. She had been an interpreter for the deaf, had helped found a registry of interpreters for the deaf in Philadelphia. One day, while signing to a friend of hers, she realized the signs came awkwardly. A week later, she could barely do it at all though she was still able to speak for a few more months.

When she finally succumbed, it was, of course, a relief. She had suffered badly and was heavily sedated with liquid morphine in her last days. At least we were able to keep her at home with hospice care. Let me put in a big plug for hospice nurses - the one we had was a true saint on earth, a kind, loving soul who made my mother's last few months as comforting as possible and did it all for little more than minimum wage, I am sure.

My father never recovered. I was lucky to grow up with two people who were deeply in love with each other. He passed away three years later and sometimes I deeply regret that I don't believe in an afterlife because I would love to think they are together now.

I don't think I ever recovered either. I have to remind myself I was lucky to have them in the first place. Every day of my life, I knew I was loved and you can't give a child anything more than that.

I miss her every day but I think I miss her a little more on days like today.

Ten years. Incredible. I apologize if this is a cliche but it's a good one: It seems like it was just yesterday. And it seems like it happened a thousand years ago.

The President Has Been Shot
So, where were you when Kennedy was shot? What do you remember? Anything? Were you even a zygote yet? It's so odd to be 42 years old, having lived through that moment which was probably as shattering to the country then as when the towers fell 25 miles from me in 2001, and having absolutely no memory of it.

Can't blame me, though. I was only 2 years and 10 months old.

While going through my mother's tattered folders earlier this year when whe passed, I found an old sermon handwritten by my father (Rabbi Louis A. Cassel, whose Newsweek subscription I've kept running under his name for the 22 years since his death) the week of Kennedy's murder. It must have been an interesting time; I'm sure no repeat after repeat of news footage and Zapruder films could do it justice.

How many here are old enough to remember? Me? When I finally came aware of the world around me, the hippies were taking over. It was an odd childhood.

Forty two fucking years old and I'm not even old enough to remember the Kennedy murder. Time makes your life history far too quickly.

-TODD

Saw _Matrix revolutions_ last night, and it didn't suck as bad as people have indicated. Yes, it had serious problems, and there was more than enough bad plotting and dopey dialogue and open-ended weirdness to keep it from being a wonderful experience. But on the whole, I did enjoy it. (I just didn't expect anything profound. Go in with the expectation of cool visuals, and no profundity, and you'll be just fine.)

What bugged me was the guy who was ostensibly in command of the Zion defenses. You know the guy-- the gruff commander who was 'with" Niobe and at odds woth Morpheus. The guy got NO fuckin' respect. You could sum his situation up like this:

"We need every ship we can get because the machines are gonna come in and slaughter us."
Morpheus: "I must take a ship and do what the Oracle only half-told me with vague suggestions and windy pronouncements."
"What? Morpheus, cut the shit. We need every ship we got. Why shoudl I give up a valuable ship because you have weird religious beliefs?"
Morpheus: "My beliefs do not require you to believe."
"I don't fucking CARE. MY beliefs say that I have to defend this city. Council, back me up on this!"

Council: "I'm afraid Morpheus follows his own light. He can take a ship away."
"WHAT? Jesus fucking Christ, why don't you just give him _three_ ships?"
Council: "Morpheus, you may take three ships."
"Now, WAIT a second! I'm the general! I'm the one you hired to defend the city! I don't understand why you won't back me up here!"
Council: "Understanding is not a prerequisite for obedience."

"But... but... we _need_ those ships! Now, wait a second! I'm supposed to be in _command_ here! And we're facing the worst disaster we've ever faced! We need weapons! We need every man, woman, and child to get ready to defend our home! Niobe, back me up here!"
Niobe: "I'm sorry, but even though I'm with you, I must support Morpheus. In fact, I'm going to vounteer to help him. Don't wait up for me."

I'm surprised that we didn't see the following scene:

General guy: "So you got the general idea, right? Morpheus has three ships off in Jipip somewhere, and he's got Neo and Trinity and a whole buncha other people too. If your machines drill down here, here, and here, you can get easy entrance to Zion. By the way, here are the computer codes that handle the security system, and here's a supply pipe for the water that you can explode and flood the place. Over _here_ are the caverns where they're still holding that fucking _rave_."
Agent Smith: "We are _impressed_. Now, what did you want in exchange?"
General guy: "Just let me live on a virtual island somewhere. Coupla palm trees, a bunch women that look just like Niobe and Trinity and the one gorgeous one Link's with. And gimme a lot of weapons and a bunch of drones who look just like Morpheus, Neo, the Kid, that fucking Council, and just let me shoot the living hell out of them until I feel like eating a steak dinner..."

Quarlo's helmet can be yours. . .if the price is right. . .
This may be old news around here, but if not, the auction house Profiles in History is putting up for bid a ton of genre movie and TV props on 12/12/03. Among them is a fine piece of Ellisonania (sic?), the helmet Michael Ansara wore in the classic HE penned Outer Limits episode "Soldier" (lot #487). Just the thing for the hard to please Ellison fan on your holiday list. . .

Huge PDF file with catalog and details:
http://www.profilesinhistory.com/pdf/PIH_Auction17.pdf

Big 10-4 on THE WOLF MAN...I think it's way underrated. People always talk about the emotion of Karloff's acting in FRANKENSTEIN and deservedly so, but I think Chaney's Larry Talbot is just as good.

Read some really terrible reviews of CAT IN THE HAT...probably not enough to discourage people from doing this sort of thing in the future though.

light at the end of the tunnel?
I've had the first good day in a long while and just felt the need to share. I may have reconciled with my friend. I got two walk-in appointments in the busy christmas season (credit the rugby final, everyone was either watching the game or celebrating England's victory). ***AND*** I scored a Borges short story collection at the used bookstore for a mere 3 pounds! (No Kersh, though; shameful.) So, although larger life issues still lurk out there, at least it's been a nice day today.

Cindy, you must've passed my name on the 800 number....Thanks!

HORTON HEARS A HOWL

I share Steve's sentiments about the patronizing modern-day bastardizations of Seuss (a genuine creative genius). Chuck Jones did Geisel thorough justice in the 60's but that was long ago. Today's high-tech mentality obliges this insular homage. Just to begin with, if I were compelled to adapt his stuff I would implement CGI animation (like Pixar) to do Geisel's designs visual justice.

No, if I want to see live hairy creatures I'll watch THE WOLF MAN with Lon Chaney, Jr. Inspired by Harlan's announcement of his new story (not to mention my heartfelt memory of LANGERHANS) I was watching the film the other night...several times. I really love this thing. The irresistable tragic dimensions of Larry Talbot run like a modern Greek tragedy. And the presence of the great actor Claude Rains, as Sir John Talbot, articulating this wonderfully written dialogue, gives the film an instant air of sophistication. For its length, the movie intelligently takes its time setting up the characters.

I should adds that Paul Sawtell's music is a fucking beautiful thing to listen to. This was the score that would later be used in the Holmes movies with Rathbone.

The high points of this film really stick with you. Today's moviemakers, including Ron Howard (who SHOULD know this) could learn something from the material (and without condescending).

Hey, man...did you know that "Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night, may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright"?

Jim Hess sets you all straight
http://www.thinkingrockpress.com/trp984.html

Or, to quote Cindy: Jesus.

Mount James
Steve's right about starting with short fiction. I'd also suggest the following:

"The Aspern Papers," "The Beast in the Jungle," "The Figure in the Carpet," "The Great Good Place," "The Jolly Corner," and "The Altar of the Dead." All of HJ's short fiction is available now in 5 volumes from the Library of America and you should be able to find the set (or other printings of James) in any public or college library

When starting the novels, you might try WASHINGTON SQUARE or THE SPOILS OF POYNTON for openers.

Don't know if you're reading James on your own or for classes. All the damn symbol hunting in school (over "Turn of the Screw" & "Beast in the Jungle" & THE AMERICAN) just about ruined James for me, and he wasn't much fun in school anyway. I grew up on sf & mystery -- generally simpler prose than you read in James, who once wished he could find a more elaborate way to pronounce his own name -- and the contrast was quite a jolt. I found he read much better long after my school days; didn't go back for another look until I was 40.

Have fun.

--tr

Hell nah, this Duane guy seems cool as hell (meaning, the air-conditioned, fun part of Hell.). I like this cat already. Keep postin bottle rocket; you give the joint a new jolt, it sorely needs. Some of these mooks here would bore the green jello they serve in prison. Welcome.

Now, if you are right wing, we may have to throw down, but besides that, tongue kisses and daisies in your gun barrel.

---------------

From what I saw of the new Cat In The Hat, it looked funny and well made. At least Mike Myers looks like the Cat. He will scare smaller children, I'd guess.

We should never be too pc about certain writers. We will see the movie first, before we bite down on the electric line.

----------------

The attacks in Iraq are monumental; but the right media complain that the story is too one sidedly negative. Sure, the children are going back to school, but they went to school under Saddam, right? They get to sell cheap shit on the streets now--whoopie, doo! You can sell stuff in a totalitarian government as much as any other. This thing about negative versus positive is like saying if a child is molested, we are biased, if we only mention the bad part about the abuse, and not the good story, that the abused child got a snowcone afterwards. Fox news can nibble my winkie.

Theodore Geisel Abuse And Other Things

HARLAN: Are you upset at all by this abuse of Theodore Geisel? He's been well-interpreted in the past by Bob Clampett, Chuck Jones and Fritz Freleng. Those great animators even took liberties with the source material, but they never felt it was necessary to rape Geisel's work the way Ron Howard and Mike Myers have done. I am grinding my teeth over this latest assault on the writer who gave us Private Snafu, The Thousand Fingers of Dr. T and The Lorax.


-----------

ON PICKING UP AND PUTTING IT DOWN: I personally like to try different angles for approaching writers. Sometimes, if I don't find any good in a writer that everyone seems to be grooving to, I will put their work down for a while and come back to it from another angle. I liked Shakespeare instantly, but I could never warm to John Milton, even when he made great Satanic flourishes in his rhetoric.

Several critics, including C. S. Lewis, helped me rehabilitate my idea of Milton. I saw him as tragically bound by Puritanism, so I needed help to see him as a more ambiguous and more conflicted writer than I realized. Then I saw his daring flaws and his religious radicalism (he was an Arrian heretic afterall. I also started to hear what Virginia Woolf called the "masculinity" of his verse, and though I never believed he was "of the devil's party," as Blake said, I could tell that their were Romantics who found more in Milton's excess exuberance than in his religious orthodoxy.

Critics were helpful, but it was finally the poem, "L'Allegro," his poem to Shakespeare, and his masque, Comus, that finally got me over the Puritan stodginess. I had to keep trying, and I'm glad I did.

The poet Donald Hall used to read Henry James outloud because he thought their was a sententious glory in James' writing that was a form of poetry itself. I have since seen collected books of the sentences of Henry James, and I recognize that their are qualities of interior monologue, artful expression and descriptive detail in James that can never be part of the speed and film-influenced twentieth century. That being said, it's always curious to me why Edith Wharton still comes across to most modern readers.

"Turn of the Screw" or "Daisy Miller" might be better places to start an assault on Mount James.

--------

CINDY: Alas, it's true. I'm still depressed about it, and I don't know what to say, except that I am very eager to see the best in America to reassert itself. Thank you for your kind note.

-------


Steve Dooner

Oh, hi everybody!

Just me, splashing around over here in the shallow end of the Webderland swimming pool.

I agree with Jim Davis about not making youself miserable trying to like something that just doesn’t do it for you. People of ambition and high pedigree may need to be able to discuss why each major author is great, but if you’re just a normal human being looking for enrichment and entertainment in the arts it’s no use banging yourself to pieces trying to understand the merit of a work that doesn’t speak to you just because there’s a consensus that it’s great.

I wrestled stubbornly with James’ ‘Wings of the Dove’ at one point, inspired by a James Thurber review that practically worshipped the book. After my well-intentioned efforts had burned down and out I admired that Henry James could get such precisely minced phrases onto paper without losing track of his plot, but I never did get to where I could remember from one sentence to the next what was going on. And as for Faulkner’s ‘The Sound and the Fury’, I’ve tried two or three times, but that book is damned irritating and I’m done with it.

It's also true though, that a respectable number of my favorite artists (e.g. Shakespeare, Stravinsky, Balanchine) definitely did not burst into full blossom the first time I encountered them, but are rather revealing themselves gradually over time and with some effort. The trick is knowing when digging into something might be worth the trouble. Forums like Unca Harlan’s Dining Pavillion deliver a lot of value in this respect. The natural process of trading notes with unpretentious widely read people can provide well grounded inspiration to investigate or take another crack at a particular artist or art form.

I haven’t ever tried Oates, so I can’t opine about whether she’s as worthy of extra effort as Shakespeare, but after hearing from Ellison and company I’ve a mind to pick up a couple of the recommended titles and give her a go.

'scuze me for butting in....
Pardon me while I squeeze myself out of the e.woodwork and "pipe up!" as the webmaster has exhorted...

(And please forgive any fumbling prose my ham fists may beat onto my keyboard. It's been a long day here at Mrmee, Inc., as you can tell by the time and day stamp at the top of this post.)

I've spent the last several days scuttling through these archives, and people, this has been one breathtaking educational experience. My fevered brain cannot yet comprehend all, but I can highlight for you the following things I have learned / things I will do / observations I have made:

1> I will soon hold in my sweaty, pink little hands Richard Rhodes' __Masters of Death__. And to think I thought I knew everything I needed to know about the Third Reich from Shirer's exhaustive volume. It looks like I knew very little, after all.

2> A friend had told me about the group "Hot club of San Francisco" some time ago, and it passed through the vaccuum of my brain like a neutrino through a lightyear of lead -- there was no contact or connection made. Consider the matter remedied, as I will fire open my wallet and purchase a disc of same (or listen to it for free using one of Borders' many headphone stations, it's all good!).

3> Harlan, I'm never comfortable with laughing at others' misfortunes, but your "battle with pc gehenna" on February 9, 2003 absolutely left me in stitches. Honest, I was laughing so hard that I spewed Diet Coke all over my keyboard, and several of my cubicle dwellers were tempted to drag me to the nearest nuthouse. Of course, far be it from me to laugh. On not a few occasions, I have sat back after making many minute changes to a nearly indecipherable computer program and sighed in satisfaction of a job well done, only to have it all disappear in a cloud of electrons after accidentally striking two control keys at once, or selecting the wrong answer on the "Save New Version?" card when it pops up. So perhaps I was laughing more in an understanding of your epic battle than malice (but how much do we really know ourselves?) (The link to the battle in question...)
(http://harlanellison.com/heboard/archive/bull20030218.htm -- it's the forum with the black background)

4> I've learned that I am not alone in my anger at the "Literary Establishment's" panning of Stephen King's brilliant career. Dude is a straight-up storytelling stud, and his growing popularity and legacy will extend long past his mortal existence, and will be the "date with the cheerleader" those pompous fools know they will never get to have.

Overall, my meanderings over this board have been time well spent. Rick, awesome job moderating. Regulars, keep up the chatter. I will pipe up occasionally, and I will try hard to not come off a lugoon, fool, nitwit, right-wing religious nut, godless commie sympathizer, intellectual wanna-be...

...anyone wanna read my script?

Edith Piaf's music can also be heard in perhaps the best sports movie ever made- Bull Durham. I kid you not,that was my first exposure to her.

Alternative for those with an allergy to Oates
Jim D, thanks for that....

On a related subject-- I just read a book which impressed me: FAREWELL, I'M BOUND TO LEAVE YOU by Fred Chapell. Beautifully written, I thought. Anyone else read this?

Cindy, I would love to be my own lawyer sometime; but that would mean committing a crime, and I do not want to go that far--just yet.

And I worry that the film Harlan wrote the blurb for will suck. I hate Ashton Kutcher as well.

-------------

It seems the Iraq war is going better than I thought. Here is the action at the opening of the Bagdad Wal-Mart.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/death/gen/bos2.jpg

He, he. Have a nice weekend all.

Cindy: Glad to hear things went well, knock wood. Give 'em hell, keep 'em flying and all that good stuff.

As the Edith Piaf threads keeps...threading along...any suggestions for a good one or two-disc set of Piaf to check her out? I'm ashamed to say that my biggest exposure to her was in _Saving Private Ryan,_ though I know I've heard her work on the CBC before as well, late at night during my somewhat addle-brained decision to drive the entire northern Lake Superior route to the Sault after dark.

Cheers, Jon

Yeah, I got an appointment for the DMV about a week and a half ago. All went well, I was there maybe an hour, and I am for most intents and purposes a Californian now. Unfortunately, now I gotta get my car registered in the next 20 days--not looking forward to it.

I enjoyed ZOMBIE--it was a creepy little book. I think that's the last thing I've read by Oates.

Saw CABARET last night...yet another case of "They don't make 'em like that anymore..."

I may have to put my reading of Joyce Carol Oates on hold for a while. I just learned that the Modern Library's republished _The Knight of Maison-Rouge_, a novel by Alexandre Dumas that hasn't seen print in English for about a hundred years.

Yes, that's right; an Alexandre Dumas novel that is, for all purposes, _brand new_.

Otherwise, the reviews of _The Cat in the Hat_ are coming in, and this movie sems to be inspiring near-universal revulsion. God, I miss Allan Sherman.

Steve Dooner,
You were right! Dead right. They had a story on the Today show this morning and they mentioned the "Dover Test". The ban on coverage of activities at Dover AFB. They discussed the current status quo and stated that the press was not allowed to cover the somber scenes of the American soldiers coming home in coffins. They intimated that the ban was implemented out of deference to the families of the fallen-- but they had on some veterans who said we need to see the reality of sending our sons and daughters off this way is.

You were right about the ban and you were right that it's wrong.
Cindy


Jim,
I too LOVE it that Harlan used Frank's words-- Frank's badass.
:)
Cindy

FRANK,

I AM a radio news reporter-- not an attorney. But my mom's lawyer bailed and she was alone facing wolves in a federal case. So for WANT of an attorney, she designated me her representative. I had only hours to prepare and it was late, so I slept. We left at 4AM. I walked into the courtroom with a pen. My mother had some blank paper and a briefcase filled with amazing documents. As the Agency's attorney began to examine her witnesses I listened and jotted down the gaps and holes in what they said. I knew every facet of my mother's story and had plenty of documented details about each of those who were there to slander her. I knew when they were lying and it wasn't difficult to ask questions that would induce them to contradict themselves. I was LUCKY in the extreme that these were NOT bright people. My mother's supervisor said (during her testimony) that my mother was incapable of learning. Strangely, she had written a memo about my mother two years ago (that I had in my possession) that stated, " If I yell at her she learns"-- SO in my cross examination I pointed out that a moment earlier she had testified that my mother was incapable of learning.... then I said, " In your written memo you stated that my mother only learns when you yell at her. So, Mrs. Hutto, which statement is accurate? IS she is incapable of learning ? Or does she learn only when you yell at her?

Each of the Federal Government's six witnesses gave me an easy belly shot. With HER questions the Attorney for the feds, Amanda Hill did the framework. I just nailed up the sides. With the exception of one question-- the Judge overruled every objection raised by Mrs. Hill... conversely every objection that I made ( and they were innumerable) was sustained. The Judge had a problem with one question because my wording was off. I knew what I needed to get to, but couldn' quite find my way. So the Judge told me how I COULD word it to get it in.

I know lot's of 'em here don't believe it-- but there is a phone number for the World Ministry of Prayer-- it's free and non denominational...OKAYYY-- for all I know they're either moonies or the five hundred wives of some mormon deacon Don Juan, but I DON'T CARE! They will get people all over the world to pray for you if you ask. They require no payment for this service. My beloved best friend Becky is a non-believer. She tried them out first-- out of desperation. Within six hours the situation she despaired of was fixed. As for me-- y'all know I'm no F.Lee Baily-- I'm more of an L.E. May .. what happened in that courtroom was a friggin MIRACLE.

:)
Cindy

PS The union man who testified on my mom's behalf spoke with her on the phone last night. He was out in the hallway with the other witnesses. He said as the witnesses for the government came out of the courtroom they all indicated they had been rattled.. he said without exception they commented that they had really been "grilled" by me.


A MIRACLE I tell ya.

1-800-421 9600 WORLD MINISTRY OF PRAYER
(Just in case any of y'all ever need it)
love,
Cindy

You're killing me, Harlan.

REPLYING TO JOSEPH FINN

It actually opens into a fluegelhorn. Imagine my surprise.

- he

lgg: http://www.waldorfconference.com/

Brian Siano,

Just popping in to say thanks for the Piaf link - twas a ncie background to the sets and the 40th anniversary, even if the web designer of the page saw fit to put in a horrible hovering menu on the right hand side that insisted on following me as I scrolled down teh page, obscuring some of what I wanted to read.

Not that I was annoyed at the designer or anything.

Harlan,

Just out of curiosity, does the Accordian set expand and contract like a real accordian? It's a really nifty looking design.

Regards,
Joseph

catching up

It's been a long time since I read Oates. I plowed through half a dozen of her novels in my teens (_Them_, _Wonderland_, several others) because my girlfriend liked her, and I was mostly pretty bewildered. These characters did not act like anybody I knew. (Had a similar experience with another of my girlfriend's fascinations, Anais Nin, at that point, then went through various other phases with regard to that curious person.) It's probably long past time to check her out again. (Was amused some years ago that Oates wrote a snippy letter to "Harper's" after Sallie Tisdale's cover essay about pornography, "Talk Dirty To Me," which later grew into a fine book by the same name, and Tisdale responded by apologizing for not being interested in more healthy, grown-up entertainments like, say, boxing.)

Can you keep a secret? I'm waiting on final confirmation, but the TV network tabloid show "Inside Edition" is proposing to fly me down to LA this Tuesday to tape an interview for a show they're going to do on the pervasiveness of porn in our culture.

Not exactly the forum I would have preferred for discussion of what I consider a serious and important book, and they've proposed a truly ghastly flight schedule for a long, grueling day that may result in no more than 15 or 30 seconds of national exposure, but in the promotion game, ya takes whatcha can get.

DORIE JENNINGS:

No, you're not a philistine if you don't like Joyce Carol Oates. If you made a good-faith effort to read her work, and you found it tedious, well, then IT WAS, and that's that. Personal experience of art trumps the critical consensus every time, and it's ridiculous for anyone to tell you different. Now, I'm sure Oates has turned out the occasional stinker in her long career--the woman has written more books than God, after all--and it's possible those are the ones you picked up. It still doesn't mean you should discount your feelings, and return to an author you didn't enjoy.

Personally, I'm all about the pleasure principle when it comes to reading these days. Life's too damned short, and the list of great stuff too long, to willingly suffer in the name of ANYONE'S reputation. If a book doesn't work for me within the first fifty pages or so, I put it down and move on. Why be a martyr? (Hairshirts are just SO passe. If you want to live like an extra in THE SEVENTH SEAL, however, then by all means, knock yourself out.)

Ah, at last we're talking about someone I've actually read. I like Oates. Gots plenty of fiber. (Though, like ATC, I wasn't all that impressed with ZOMBIE.)

And Anne Rice. I enjoyed INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE. And not much else. But, maybe that's colored by my anger when the above was being made into a movie and she had harsh things to say about Tom Cruise playing the role of Lestat (not that that in itself was the impetus of my anger; I mean I'm not that big of a Cruise fan even though he is kinda dreamy and he's just poured into that uniform in A FEW GOOD MEN...ahem...moving on). She had the "type" of actor she wanted playing Lestat and this is what annoyed me: She compared Lestat to Ahab in saying that Lestat was one of the great characters in literature and I just thought that was too too much. Trust me. I knew Herman Mellville, and, you, my gothic windbag, are no Herman Mellville.

Also, I probably should've mentioned this yesterday when the award to King was brought up, but I'm working my way through WOLVES OF THE CALLA right now and I am blown away by this conundrum: There are times when the writing is clunky, but then there are passages of such exquisite subtlety...This is a good book and if you haven't picked it up, yet, do so. Despite the clunky passages, this is a good book. I think he was actually hitting his stride in the 4th one (and seemed to hold up much better than the previous three the second time I read it) and it's good to see he's still making progress.

I'm surprised anyone would deem Joyce Carol Oates pretentious. Her work is concise and her language allusive. I'd invite the naysayers to sample "The Ruins of Contraceur" in Al Sarrantonio's 999 collection. It reads like John Updike meets H.P. Lovecraft.

Now, Anne Rice, on the other hand...

Susan:

Could you post info on The Waldorf Convention? I hadn't heard of it previously.

Thanks.

About fifteen years ago, I read the Oates story, "The Going Away Party," which fairly blew me away. Later on, I found out it was a chapter of her book, Marya, which was also a good read--kind of a bildungsroman. If anyone needs a starting point for Oates, I recommend the above story and also the oft anthologized, "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been." Oates has written so much stuff, and in so many styles, that she has something for everyone.

I'm chagrined to admit that I have yet to experience anything by Mrs. (Ms.?) Oates. One more author to throw on the ever-growing "Webderland Bookclub" reading pile. Sheesh... I'm never gonna get caught up.

Andrew

P.S.
Joel - Take my advice. If you haven't done so already, make an appointment for your license. You'd be surprised how few people take advantage of the service and how much faster it'll go for you. The DMV website is:
https://eg.dmv.ca.gov/foAppt/Welcome.jsp
-A

Oates
Have only met Oates once or twice, each time so briefly I doubt it registered on her side. And I have not read MUCH of her work, at least not at novel length, but BLACK WATER was horrifying. (Also read ZOMBIE, but it did not register.)

Oates
I like that she's into boxing. She pops up now and then on that HBO program about classic fights.

I've read a few things here and there--I think it's a little hard to get started with her because she's written so much.

I have to get my driver's license tomorrow. My first experience at the California DMV--not looking forward to it, but hey, maybe there will be some good material for future stories while I wait. I wrote for a while today so that was good.

Sowing Oates
I've only read a few of Joyce Carol Oates's stories and one book, YOU MUST REMEMBER THIS, and while the stories I read were okay, I loved the novel. I own several more of her books and fully intend on reading them, and others, when the time comes.

Her website is pretty cool, too. Celestial Timepiece or somesuch. Look it up. It has scans of manuscript pages that are quite interesting.

Take care,
Bill

I have some info for you Piaf fans about the box set we've been discussing. Check out this link:
http://www.rfimusique.com/siteEn/article/article_7165.asp

Never read Joyce Carol Oates, but that's the problem with having so many good writers running about; there's always a few you miss. And whenever we hear about Joyce Carol Oates, it's as one of those icons of the New York Literary Crowd, so for a lot of us, there's this gut-wrench suspicion that is _never_ borne out by anything she's actually done or written. (Susan Sontag has a similar rep. People seem to dislike her intensely without bothering to know anything about her.)

I've been promising myself a try at Diane Johnson and Martin Amis as well. But right now, I'm working my way through Casanova's memoirs (slow going) and the recently-republished edition of _Low Life_ by Luc Sante (much faster).

I like Joyce Carol a lot. The woman AND the writer. In fact, I have a really cool photo of me and her, side by side, both of us having just accepted awards somewhere, grinning seriously, and obviously mutually pleased to be there, then. It's in a sweet and massively spiffy art deco glass-beaded frame. When, one year, I beat her out for an Edgar, she was the epitome of class in congratulating me. Yeah, I like her, and almost all of her books, too. Yeah, I do. Even with this ringing in my ears.

Harlan

Dorie: Try again.

I TRIED to read Joyce Carol Oates, really I did. She's respected, she's won awards, many intelligent people think she's just wonderful. I just can't slog through her prose. Why's it OK for her to write rambling, barely punctuated sentences which are a page or two long? Aren't we taught not to do that? Does calling it "stream of consciousness" make it all right?

Call me a philistine but I just can't seem to appreciate her, and I've tried.

Correction . . .
On second thought, maybe *I* should check a dictionary, too. It IS possible to "condescend to the vulgate," though I still don't see how Oates's use of a pseudonym is evidence of this.

In any case, I'm with John K. Oates is a terrific writer, and she doesn't deserve the invective hurled at her.

Coleman, is that you, old buddy?
TERRY EAGLETON etc.:

Vulgate means "common speech," so I don't understand how Oates can condescend to it. Not to mention you've failed to prove how her writing is cowardly in any way (see definition of "poltroon"), but since you probably haven't actually READ any of Oates's work, hey, why worry about using words correctly?

Oh, and am I the only person here who LOVES the notion of Harlan Ellison quoting Frank Church in his upcoming Chaos piece? Way to go, Frankee baby.

Brian, I think I am sick. The day Chomsky finally gets on Charlie Rose, is the day I cannot watch television. Am away from home for the night; will miss it. Goddamn my luck.

-----------------

Cindy, are you a lawyer? Thought you were a radio person.

-----------

In London, the pulling down of the Bush statue was cute. Not surprisingly, Michael Moore is in Brittania as well.

Susan, your people are great. I love the Brits.

Well, it's apparent that John Updike's famous comment on Joyce Carol Oates is still relevant:

She has received some of the harshest scoldings of any major talent.

Shit, I'd be vain too, if I'd written "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?" Or FOXFIRE. Or EXPENSIVE PEOPLE. Or...

the magic of photography

Someone wrote:

> Terrific portrait photo of you. Tres elegante, mon ami!

Yes, it's amazing what they can do with CGI and retouching these days, isn't it?

Joyce Carol Oates Writing as a Poltroon
I think Joyce Carol Oates is a very fussy conceited writer. Besides being a feminist and we all know that weighting whatever meager writing talent she has with a programmatic ideology does not make for worthwhile writing. Why does she have TWO names on her books? Doesn't it defeat the purpose of having a pseudonym if you have your real name on the cover as well? What does that mean? That this book is Oates condescending to the vulgate from the ivory tower at Princeton? She's a very vain person.

National Book Awards
The National Book Awards ceremony will be televised by C-SPAN2 on Sunday, Nov. 23:

http://www.booktv.org/feature/index.asp?segID=4052&schedID=223

Lee,

Thank you kindly for giving me the name and AIN for the Piaf set. Now if I only spoke French...

(By the way, the set is showing up on Amazon.com used for $112 used. Now that's tempting!)

Regards,
Joseph

Is there any place on the web to read the contents of King's speech? I'll look myself, too, but if someone knows a source off the top of their head, I'd appreciate the heads-up.

PS: is anyone else as tickled as I am that Berkeley Breathed is going to return to the Sunday funnies??? Can't wait to check in with Opus!

In addition to Chris' remarks...

I was one that didn't think King should accept the award because of the comments of those that bestowed it upon him. It was quite obvious they were doing this for publicity and to goose sales. Not there's anything wrong with that, I just think they could've given it to King for much better reasons.

However...

Upon reading some of King's comments and listening to him on NPR yesterday, it is apparent that he is using this award and this recognition as a soapbox to address what are some valid concerns with the way these awards are handed out. So, yes, kudos to King. And I think he still should've told Hazzard she was fulla shit, but he's obviously a nice guy. Writers and critics like Hazzard, who close their eyes and their ears to something *they* deem not worthy, are missing the boat on this one. Who knows if anyone will be reading any of these folks a hundred years from now, but I guaran-fucking-tee you, (some of) King's work will be read. Not Grisham and not Clancy and certainly not Mary Higgins Clark, but I'll bet you King's stuff will be read. (And a fanboy nod that Ellison's work, Harlan, not just Ralph, will be read a hundred years from now, too.)

*** Cindy ***

My standard e-mail is the one posted above. Additionally there is also vze4mxws@verizon.net which is a bit of a sobriety test to memorize. I attempted to contact you via your yahoo account but that mail queue is full, thus the squandering of this bandwidth. I have left additional contact info via a message for you on the ellison bbs. Failing all of that, administrators of this forum, and about a dozen other people here have all my contact info. and may give it to whoever they wish. - B.

Kudos for King!
A heartfelt kudos to Stephen King for his remarks last night at the National Book Awards ceremony.

He stated that the National Book Foundation should continue to build bridges "between popular fiction and literary fiction" by not making his honor a mere token due to his popularity. "I am begging you not to go back to the old way of doing things," he said.

As for Shirley Hazzard's remarks that "I don't regard literature ... as a competition. It is so vast, and we have this huge language." She is dead wrong; she seems to be oblivious that there is an unspoken, insidious competetion going in publishing
circles that excludes the likes of Theodore Sturgeon and our gracious host and other fine writers that we know and love from the stature afforded to say, William Faulkner and Nadine Gordimer.

It would be in the best interests of the publishing industry to heed King's wake up call; there is no place for their sort of elitism in a culture that expouses diversity as one of it's crown jewels of freedom.

Now let's hit the streets...

Chris B.
Middletown, OH

Harlan: Thank You!
I tried writing a fancy thank you, but it didn’t work out.

Please just accept my sincere and unvarnished thanks for the marvellous book.

You have certainly succeeded in your desire to return equal value for the Piaf music.

Beyond that, I’m completely tongue tied.




Joe Finn,

In France, the set is called ‘Intégrale 40me Anniversaire’. Elsewhere it’s called ‘L’Intégrale Accordéon’. For both versions the ASIN is B0000AKPR1, and the packaging looks pretty much the same. I picked up Harlan’s copy in euros when the set was initially released, so the price + shipping was reasonable for a 20CD/10Disc set. The price has climbed steadily since it’s release. In currencies weak against the euro, it has gotten kind of crazy.

Not that anyone was paying attention...

But I misunderstood David in my last post. It had taken about 9 hours for the signal to reach my brain. I was supposed to be reading important bank information when it struck me, "I wonder if I misread his post". Now I ought to go back and see what the bank was trying to tell me.

First, a kudo in the general direction of Cindiana "Perry Mason" Jones, for the fine job she did in court.

*KUDO*

You may now go about your normal, daily business.

I was talking to my crazy friend earlier this evening, and we got around to the subject of Michael Jackson. He told me Jackson was a disgrace to all self-loathing, psychotic, deviant mutant alien transsexuals everywhere. I think he may have had a point. Even if the latest allegations aren't true.

Chuck

The recent discussions on anger, particularly the last couple of posts, leads me to ask if anyone here is familiar with the work of J. Krishnamurti. I resisted reading him because I was led to believe he was a "mystic." In my opinion, it was an inaccurate label. Krishnamurti, who came from and finally rejected the guru tradition, stressed the importance of observation, to see the truth in a particular situation and not blind ourselves with wishful thinking. The problem with unobserved anger, anger that is not understood, is it is a blunt instrument, equally capable of harming friend and foe.

I remember Harlan once saying that he waits a few days, or perhaps even longer, before sending a vitriol-laden letter, to see if his anger still burns after a cooling off. It's not a bad idea to do this before speaking, too.

Barney,
They arrived and stole my breath. They're absolutely beautiful!!! You REALLY shouldn't have... but I'm glad you did.
THANK YOU. Now HELP!! I've lost your email!! If you have mine please, please email me so I can respond in greater detail.

you're SUCH a peach,
:)
yer pal,
Cindy


Frank,
I haven't forgotten the assignment on Mystic River- -but I just got back from federal court in San Antone. I cross examined 7 witnesses presented by " the agency". It seemed to go off swimmingly-- the Judge said it will be four or five months until she makes her ruling... which could be good or bad, I reckon. The fed's attorney shook my hand afterward and said I did an excellent job. THAT could be good or bad too, eh?

Meantime we put the other side through their paces and made them sweat for the priviledge of firing a faithful employee of 43 years and 11 months. I didn't put my mom on the stand.

I'll try to get that assignment in tomorrow... did I blow the extra credit?

:)
Cindy

Oh good heavens... At this very moment Paris Hilton's good name is being ruthlessly slandered in the press, her very HONOR being called into question, whilst every fifteen-year-old in the country spanks himself into apoplexy over these appalling video clips of hers! How anyone can even THINK of anything else at a time like this is beyond me. Oh, oh, I feel faint. That poor girl. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm very upset...I'm just going to nip off and, uh, write to my congressman. (Eef you know what I'm saying.)

Distressed,

J

Missing Gore Vidal on Charlie Rose is yet another reason to buy a Tivo. But all is not lost: on Thursday night, Rose has Noam Chomsky on the show.

Some Thoughts, Coloured by Personal Experiences Through the Years
Firstly, my apologies for the length. I'm trying to prune it down, but my editing abilities seem to be impaired tonight. :)

Secondly, thanks for the course correction, Mister Ellison and Joseph Finn. My Internet search abilities are as freakish as ever they were. Good to know. :) Thanks also to Ray Carlson, for posting the relevant Bad Signals excerpt we were looking for.

What occurred to me, after I had spent my one post quota yesterday, was that I wanted to answer Alex and Paula's posts, regarding anger and its usefulness (or lack thereof) to the ordinary mortal. If you would permit me? (If anyone present is egregiously offended, or bored to the point of tears, ask Rick to take my post down. I won't mind.)

It looks, to me, as though many of the parties involved in the non-event are mistaking two very base, yet superficially similar emotions: Anger, and injustice. The two are not one and the same, nor are they interchangeable, in my experience.

Anger can be destructive, physically, mentally, emotionally. For the angry person as well as the person or inanimate object which provokes the anger in the first place. It fractures relationships, business ventures, marriages, family structures, and all the other basic social constructs we surround ourselves with just so we can convince ourselves we're more than thinking monkeys. Anger, when employed, is the nuclear armament of psychological warfare.

Injustice, on the other tentacle, is a different sort of emotion altogether, even though the initial bursts of both appear to look and feel similar. A sense of gross injustice can sometimes have much more positive results, if the feeling is applied correctly. That is, if the initial cursing-and-kicking-the-family-pet (or throwing books at televisions, for those like me, without animal companions) burst of energy is rerouted towards rational thinking about the situation one finds oneself (or somebody else) in, and determining exactly how and when to extricate oneself (or somebody else) from said situation with a minimum of the above-stated casualties being incurred.

(There is also an insidious form of false injustice, usually employed by social workers and those with lethal doses of codependency issues; you'll recognize them from bulletin boards across the Internet, as well as in real life, by their knee-jerk inclination to "speak up for the oppressed" or taking horrified offense at everything as their default state of operation in the world at large. These are not the people who created political correctness; they are the ones who ENFORCE it. With dour humourlessness and complete lack of irony. I'm not speaking of this misplaced pity when I say "injustice".)

Having read a lot of our patron author's writings over the years, both fiction and non, it seems to me as though injustice is what he's out to remove from the world. Sure, he may make it a practice to fillet and barbecue the cluebies of the world, but it's never struck me as being malicious, or ill-intentioned. It comes across as being nothing more and nothing less than a sporting event, and he is certainly not the lone individual amongst the whole of science fiction fandom who engages in it. Hell, a WorldCon is practically the Olympics of such entertainments.

(Catch a reasonably intelligent "fan" the wrong way, or at the wrong hour of the morning, and you're liable to be greeted with far worse rejoinders and/or putdowns than some of the atrociously funny shit I've seen the Grand Masta H. Salt, Esq. unleash on the unsuspecting. Albeit, it seems to be done by these others out of an overarching need to prove superiority, or just sheer pigheaded glee at the ability to make others uncomfortable or feel inferior, as compared to their self-inflated godlike mental prowess.)

What sets HE apart from the others mentioned above (again, this is my subjective opinion only), is that HE doesn't go off at random on unsuspecting passersby who might verbally slip up and stick their foot firmly in mouth and swallow audibly, nor does he seem to engage in such sparrings with any of the maliciousness or poor self-esteem issues I've seen on display elsewhere. Anyone he's taken to task on the forum, have been asking for it. Literally, in some cases. "Begging to be barbecued by the butcher of the Internet". Or somesuch shit. HE obliges. Can't blame him. It's all in good fun. Which doesn't qualify it as "anger", in my opinion. (What?! This many words in and she's still on-topic?! The horror, the fear!! ;)

Alex, you mentioned that you never write as quickly as you do when inspired by your anger. Somehow, anger does not come through when I sit reading even the "angriest" of the small portion of the Ellison bibliography that graces the wall behind me.

Throughout the tapestry of years that makes up my life, I have often made many unkind remarks and posted snarky or sarcastic responses, motivated purely by the white-hot heat of anger. Moral of the story? It comes back to bite you in the ass, every single time. (What Paula said about picking your battles. Seconded.) Seeing what is clearly an injustice and taking steps to eradicate it (calmly and with a level head), has gotten me further along in the machinations of my life than any fricasseeing of the fractious has. Regardless of how much fun the act of preparing a well-done fricassee of newbie might be....

Which can be applied to writing, as well, in my experience. Pounding out epithet-laden diatribes in the heat of the moment may be helpful (of some redoubtable therapeutic value, perhaps), but in the end it doesn't do shit for the situation in question, or do anything towards resolving the situation in question. If there even is a situation in question in the first place. What pisses one person off may not piss off another, and likely will only engender confusion and/or derision in the reader subjected to lengthy, drawn-out eviscerations of it.

Now, if you're writing fiction in the the white-hot heat of anger, that's another thing entirely. It doesn't seem that one would get anything usable by starting from such a place. (You say you get quantity, but do you get quality?) Funnelling your initial reaction of injustice towards presenting something otherwise familiar to the reader in a different light and from a different perspective, in order to bust through their preconceived (but woefully incorrect) notions, that's useful, in my opinion.

All of which has little to do with Warren Ellis' Bad Signals message, HE's response thereto, the response thereafter, and Alex and Paula's posts following the initial flurry. The collective thread just sparked off these meandering ruminations, and I thought maybe someone else here might be interested in discussing it. If not, that's cool, too. :)

Velvet

Gore Vidal was on Charlie Rose last night, and it was a hot one. Charlie asks Vidal if there is anything about today's America he likes, and Vidal says NO. Charlie seemed flabbergasted. Vidal was real grouchy, which is always fun. I'm a bit more idealistic then Vidal, but it was fun television.

Now get ready for Michael Jackson teevee 24/7

::SIGH::

Sorry, Lynn.

Harlan & Lee Thompsen,

Not be be an annoyance, but what is the actual title of that Piaf set? Seemed we had some confusion over what the full title when the set was being talked about in the first place, and I never did see an exact resolution of the issue.

Regards and Thanks,
Joseph

THREE IMPORTANT LOOSE ENDS TIED OFF

1) Apparently, the reason you couldn't pull up my post to Warren
Ellis is that whatever e.mail address it was that Ray Carlson included in his original advisement, which was the one I used, it was a personal one for Warren, and not his bulletin board chatroom. So the exchanges of conversation -- including our mutual agreement to meet and sup together next time he's in LA or I'm in London -- went to him directly, and he didn't choose to transship them to his public forum. (I'm assuming all this, but it sounds right.) If'n you want to read it, you can suggest to Mr. Ellis -- politely -- that he might reprint it where you can find it, if it's of any consequence to you.

2) TONY RABIG: It arived yesterday late. I, like you, have no
bloody idea what could have kept it so long in UPS sluggish transit. We'll honor your request for the "proper" recompense, but it may turn out to be TWO books, not one dual edition. The publisher is talking about various packaging schema, but however it manifests itself, you'll get everything. MANY many many thanks!

3) LEE THOMPSON: holy gadzoley betty spaghetti! The Piaf box
arrived late yesterday, as well. It's gimunguous! It must've cost you a fortune! I know you said it was a gift, dear heart, but ... well ... uh ... I'm utterly flabbergusted and unmanned. Susan and I doodled with the idea of saying thankyou in proper gift form, but couldn't think of anything you might want, besides the autograph in Sophie's paperback. But we finally came up with a suitable oblation. Easton Press, the hardcover limited edition house, did an elegant buckram-bound edition of DEATHBIRD STORIES some years ago. Filled with gorgeous full-color plates by Jill Bauman. We had saved a couple of copies against the inevitable need for providing one to a special venue, and we've mailed it off to you already. I signed it to you, and to Sophie, so she can have it when we're both gone. There is no thankyou commensurate with the grandness of your gift, but perceive me struggling toward such an asseveration.

Oh, and as long as I'm here: David, thanks for the newspaper photocopies. Terrific portrait photo of you. Tres elegante, mon ami!

Yr. pal, Harlan

Barney,
Thanks for responding to my inquiry about the Ellison bibliography, FINGERPRINTS ON THE SKY. Please continue to keep us posted and encourage Tim Richmond to do likewise. I'm really looking forward to that book. I'm sure it'll be a significant piece of scholarship and a good read.

All,
I'd love to go see "The Waldorf Conference," the upcoming play about the beginning of the Hollywood blacklist, mentioned by Susan here and in her newsletter. But I’m not even on the right coast. If anybody out there gets to see it, please post a nice long report.

http://www.waldorfconference.com/

Barney,

That's because it only came out on Mr. Ellis' mailing list, Bad Signal. There's nothing more or less than has been posted here.

Regards,
Joseph

Warren Ellis site / sites.
Okay, I'm having the same problem as Velvet. I seem to have found the main Warren Ellis site and the blog but as of yesterday [after Harlan's most recent post] could not find a Harlan post in the blog or through the site specific search engine or in the "obvious" parts of Puny Humans Must Die website. I'm sure this is a case of bad karma or purloined text but if somebody wants to post a http or shoot me a link I would very much appreciate it.

- Barney

ps. Earl - At the moment I don't know. I just yesterday mailed about 1400 .jpegs [on a CD-R] of various Ellison book/pulp/fanzine and magazine covers to Tim for possible use. I say "possible" because these were mostly captured off the net and may not be of high enough resolution for reproduction. At least if my hard drive takes a hit three years of captures are now backed up. - B.

Harlan Calls Warren

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:57:35 EST

A bunch of little things all thrown together:

Thanks to all the people who decided to play "let's you and
him fight" after my mention of Harlan Ellison in the last Signal,
I've just had an extremely pleasant conversation with the
man, who, unsurprisingly, didn't have a problem with almost
everything I said. With the one caveat that his heart is not, in
fact, held together with garden twine and Lego, and that he's
doing fine. Always nice to make a new friend. And to know
that not everyone is conditioned to perceive an attack
whether or not one is presented.

Christmas, as those in societies who celebrate it will be
horribly aware, is now some five weeks away. Do me a
favour this year. Grab your Yellow Pages and find a local
charity that provides the children of homeless families
with presents. If you're anything like me, you've got a stack
of books, comics and graphic novels that you neither
need nor want. Sort out the kid-safe ones and get them to
that charity. You'd be doing a good thing.

"Harlan Ellison is a mind whose time is fine."

+

"Typewriter coolcat, bongo beat on the keys, daddy-O!"

Chris,

"I haven't yet figured out how to get past the idea that everything I write is "just made-up."

I still don't completely grasp why this is such a roadblock for you so I'd like to pitch one more idea: I'm sure you remember conversations in which you used analogies to make a point. An analogy is a comparison of specific similarities between things which are otherwise unlike. In terms of its objective I often think of the story as pretty much the same thing...just longer. It's like a loooooong analogy.

Likewise, we play with metaphors as a verbal or visual construction to infer something else. (Interestingly, a metaphor can express an analogy; but an analogy can be expressed non-metaphorically.) Either way we're putting together concepts that infer something other than what they are. It seems to me if the brain accepts that process it can handle and finesse the concept of the STORY.

If you can make an analogy, you can write a story. That may be a little simplistic - since the components of a story encompass so much (including the things I rattled off) - but it does remove several psychological barriers, which is all THIS analogy is meant to do. It works for ME at any rate. Others might just settle with, "my brain doesn't work that way."

DAVID,

"The kind of teasing Jim indulged in here did not strike me as particularly honest".

Respectfully, I'm not so sure I agree with that. When I took a whiz on Jim, it was sarcasm but generated from real feelings which I think were accurately conveyed. If I'm being honest with my feelings...well...I'm being HONEST. In fact, I think if I'd posed my response to Jim in some straightforward fashion ("May I kindly ask what your conclusions on this fine subject ARE, Mr. Jim?") - after reading his lines (I mean basically the same thing over and over) it wouldn't have been "honest" at ALL. We can argue about the appropriateness of the ribbing all day; but it certainly side-stepped any facade. Sarcasm: a bit like the point I was trying to make with Chris about inference, it CAN convey an honest emotional reaction. Occasionally, it's the only way to do it.

On the other hand, I bring this up because the more we're pressed to ask ourselves about honesty the more I think about what Harlan really meant when he said, "I think about it a thousand times a day". It has many dimensions. More than I was giving it credit for. It may not just mean "well, that's just what I meant" or "that's how I feel", since our consciousness is shaped by so many things assaulting us every day (externally and internally). We're often led astry by emotions, by misinformation, personal biases and complexes, stereotype images, too much fuckin' testosterone, and so on. That wraps lots of wire mesh around the definition of honesty.

This thread hasn't been a waste. I'll be thinking about it more -in many different scenarios.

Correction
By 'this very page' I meant 'the page I'm posting from with the links looking at me from the left-hand corner.' Oh, you'll figure it out. Cheers, Jon

Unh, Lee...
Lee, I think the Asimov quotation you're thinking of is probably two clicks away. Go up to the 'Biography' link on this very page and click on it. Then click on 'Isaac Asimov on Ellison.' Voila!

Cheers, Jon

PAB:

When I used the term ‘classless hurtfulness’ I was responding to Ellis’ suggestion that Harlan’s heart trouble is a self-inflicted side-effect of his own poor anger management skills. As though it was Harlan’s own emotional incompetence that not only screwed up his productivity, but also brought him to death’s door.

‘And look at the guy now. His cardiac muscle is held together with garden twine and Lego.’

I guess I read too much of my own experience into it. Subsequent posts clarify that Ellis is just a clumsily admiring imitator gleefully chopping the style of his subject, running a riff on Ellison’s famously emotional connection to the world around him.

But his image of a heart about to pop like a water balloon brought to mind a conversation I had with my grandmother right before she died. I was about 16, and when I got to be alone with her she was several days from death - quietly lethargic - but she was lucid and I remember holding her hand while she just lay there and drank me up with her eyes. Suddenly she said, ‘I still feel like I’ve always felt. I could be twenty-five today. Only, honey, my body’s falling apart.’ And she started to cry.

Any thinking adult should understand that certain topics can be very charged, and that invoking them in the name of ‘honesty’ or ‘humor’ or ‘well meaning criticism’ is an uncertain business that is best avoided altogether. If Ellis wasn’t deliberately hurtful, he was certainly careless. Harlan is at a time of life when you do look back and question whether you’ve run the good race, when you do feel the clock ticking down, when you do feel the sadness of really knowing that it’s not going to go on forever.

Ellis’ article struck me as an awful, flippant, familiar delivery of some very personal criticisms. If he really felt that he had to bring those topics up in public, an artist of Ellison’s caliber, who has delivered the goods so consistently over such a long period of time, deserves to be treated more respectfully. I wish someone could find the Asimov quote on the same topic and post it here. Maybe by reading it Ellis could learn that it’s possible to say much the same thing but with a gentleness and respect that avoids nastiness without pulling any punches.

Re Warren Ellis' comments. I didn't see anything in Ellis's comments that looked even remotely like a slur. Maybe that's because I'd said something vaguely similar to Harlan some months ago; someone here was busting his chops, he replied with the customary Howitzers and blunderbusses, and I'd said something about how ignoring such things was probably good for keeping the stress levels down, especially given Harlan's health in recent years. Harlan's reply was that he _enjoyed_ venting at creeps, or something similar. The exact words are, of course, buried in the archives somewhere. And who am I to deprive the guy of his pleasures?

So warren Ellis's note struck me as being in the same general spirit of consideration concern, and nowhere near a slight against our host.

That said, I shall now go to sleep, and maybe tomorrow I'll have a chance to look at theDVDs I blew cash on today: the Two Towers extended version, the latest _Mystery Science Theater_ collection, and Cronenberg's _Naked Lunch_ nicely done by Criterion. Oh, and I picked up the latest Spectrum anthology of fantasy artwork, which is a consistent joy for me. Maybe my own mood will improve. I've been feeling extremely blue these days.

Velvet,

Don't sweat it - Warren Ellis sent out a note on his Bad Signal mailing list today that he had spoken to Harlan, and they're cool. Really, it's not a big deal. I just didn't want your searching skills to seem off; there was actually nothing on warrenellis.com or diepunyhumans.com (Mr. Ellis' blog).

Regards,
Joseph

"Harlan is just a cool cat who simply happens to have a typewriter."

Could you be a little more reductive?

Jesus.

Arrrrggggh!
Okay, even my preternatural search skills can't turn up the Ellison tidbit on the Ellis site. I searched through all of the main site, and the only area of the site that seems to allow public posting is diepunyhumans, the blog. Searched through there, both with the sucky search engine, and manually, for the blog entries of Nov. 18, and if it's there, my poor, work-strained eyes just ain't seeing it.

The Warren Ellis Discussion Forum over on Delphi is apparently now a thing of the past. Cursory search of ezBoard reveals that Warren Ellis' name comes up on virtually every single comics-related board on that server, but that's no surprise. (Most of the Delphucked crowd migrated to ezBoard when the Oracle of Delphi started going Norman Bates on us.) Makes it exceedingly difficult to find the one ezBoard that's "official" for Ellis. If there even is one. Which I doubt.

*****DISCLAIMER***********DISCLAIMER***********DISCLAIMER************DISCLAIMER************DISCLAIMER******
Please be advised that all of the above activity did not span more than twenty minutes, and I am actually about to log off my computer right now.
*****DISCLAIMER***********DISCLAIMER***********DISCLAIMER************DISCLAIMER************DISCLAIMER******

(Hopefully this disclaimer will forestall any mental images of me as a crazed stalker-groupie hunting down every last word of, by, and about, Ellison on the Internet. Hell, I gave that shit up when I was fifteen. Doesn't everyone? ;D)

Anyone have this link/more info? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone at all? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Velvet

TRACY,

"Harlan Ellison is one of the finest minds of our time."

No, Stephen Hawking is one of the finest minds of our time. Harlan is just a cool cat who simply happens to have a typewriter.

a liar's guide

After another day to reflect, I can see that perhaps I overreacted to Jim Hess’s posts, and he just might possibly have sought to spark and enliven conversation. But I think he should own up to the fact that he might not have approached this task in the most considerate and potentially productive manner, seeing as how several people managed to read his remarks as disrespectful. He asked us how important honesty was, and then proceeded not to be honest: he wouldn’t tell us where he is coming from, he refrained from offering any substantive input, and he picked up his ball and went home.

“To be honest” means to take responsibility for what you write and its effect upon others, the good and the bad, as well as merely to send the stuff out. The kind of teasing Jim indulged in here did not strike me as particularly honest.

Turning to Jim’s original question, I didn’t find it terribly interesting or thought-provoking, in itself. Everybody knows the answer, though we can quibble for weeks about how to phrase it. Far more difficult, and interesting, than “how important is honesty?” it seems to me, is “how do I achieve honesty?” (as opposed to, say, playing to the gallery primarily, or reaching automatically for clichés) and – in my mordant moments (like now) – “what difference does it make?”

Chris L. has big qualms about “lying.”

I’m not sure what your teacher meant by saying: "Your job is to tell lies to losers." There are at least two ways to take that. There’s a very positive one: your job is to create comforting sagas for the downtrodden, tales that inspire and instruct. And there’s at least one negative one: your job is to tell people only what they want to hear.

So I think this points up a complexity far beyond “you must be honest” or “you must tell lies.”


> Richard Walter, head of the screenwriting program at UCLA,
> advises screenwriters to "Lie through your teeth." Of course,
> he also claims "Screenwriters must embrace authentic
> self-disclosure, no matter how painful, as the organizing
> principle of their creative lives." Is he just saying everything
> he can to justify a continuing teaching position despite a lack
> of actual writing credits or is he sincerely trying to describe
> the dichotomy that most writers must confront? I don't know
> which.

It isn’t one or the other, Chris. Any decent fiction will inform you that storytelling thrives with paradoxes. Paradox is enshrined in the very language – our poor attempt to capture the richness and complexity of reality with these clunky tools called words. My gloss on Walter’s remarks would be: Self-disclosure is vital to art; it is almost unavoidable, especially if you desire to create something truly meaningful and significant; BUT in order to make it work best, you must gild the lily, cut some corners, fill some other spaces -- all sorts of imaginative adjustments that we will call, for convenience, “lying.”

I think it is in chapter 13 of The French Lieutenant’s Woman by John Fowles, which I cited earlier, that the narrator says accuses the reader of lying too. We misremember our pasts, forget critical details, make up tidy stories to explain them. We are all storytellers, fabulists . . . in a word, liars.

So, just as Luther urged Peccave fortiter (sin with gusto; if you must), I say: Lie with Gusto!

No kidding? Sounds like Mike Meyers has lost his stride....

The Ellis comments impressed me as being Johnsonian, for lack of a better comparison. They were the words of one who deeply reveres Harlan Ellison, but the need to be objective--together with a heaping entre of good, old fashioned conceit--brought the apples down on his head. What came across was "You're tremendous, William Shakespeare. I can't praise you enough, so let us take note of your bad breath." In the end, what spit wads he did shoot were as superfluous as Calgon on waterford crystal.

Harlan Ellison is one of the finest minds of our time. Those are hard credentials to improve upon. Were it not for his essential humanity, I never, EVER would have been able to access _Deathbird Stories_, or _Angry Candy_, or _Memos From Purgatory_. No, he would ultimately wax obsure in the bowells of some collegiate text (I won't go there) while kneeling acolytes eagerly await the canonized waifer to be placed in thier dumb, beseeching mouths. That kind of papal treatment has butchered Swift, Trollop, and Dickens. Most people won't touch John Milton with a ten foot long Cliff's Notes. It's hard to communicate, intrinsically, with a crowd that has dozed off.

Good for England for sticking up to that rogue Bush and protesting his ass to the teeth. Bet he is hiding under the Queen's skirts as we speak.

-----------------

Brian, meow.

Several things:

Of course I agree, Alex, that fighting the good fight is worthy and noble. I even think tilting at windmills is worth doing at times, if only just to show some resistance towards the institutionalized bullshit of the world. HOWEVER (as I've gleaned from hard experience), there are some fights that are simply not worth fighting. You cannot win, nothing will change, your enemy will crow at your defeat and be more firmly entrenched than ever, leaving you drained and bitter. Some fights, I am trying to learn, are best dealt with by walking away. It's be hard for me to know when to fight and when not to, since my inclination is always going to be fight-- but is that always the best, wisest, sanest, most productive option? I thought that was what Ellis was saying, that some fights take more out of you than they achieve in real good, and I think that's a position worth considering.

Brian: Is there really nothing you can do about the cat allergy? I understand you don't like the buggers, and that's probably not going to change (although I suspect if you met my cats, you'd be miraculously transformed... ah, but I digress). But if this issue is really preventing you from dating, because all the hot spinsters have kitties, you might want to consider something. Acupuncture? Over the counter stuff? My best friend is violently allergic to cats but he's gotten used to his one cat. He takes an OTC med when he visits me and it seems to work OK.

Re: telling lies to losers: Isn't that what sells? If I had a nickel for very character who gets amnesia, has an evil twin, finds perfect love happily ever after, wages a righteous war against an evil dictator, wins out against all odds, beats City Hall, wins the big game, etc., I'd be able to retire. Writers who want to create something meaningful seek to avoid these cliches, but look at the big hit movies, the top selling paperbacks, the TV melodramas (and the evening news). A lot of writers do set out to sell lies to losers, and these are lies that people seek out, the same way they seek out McDonald's as comfort food. It does NOT go without saying that all writers strive for honesty. It really depends on why they're writing.

PAB

Something is Rotten in Whoville.
Hey, is anyone else saddened by this Cat in the Hat movie? I think someone in the Geisel estate must have passed away, because I know they were very strict about how his work was portrayed all through the Nineties. But now Mike Meyers is the Cat in the Hat, coughing up hairballs.

And even if the movie is otherwise respectful, it's sad that a generation of kids will probably remember The Cat in the Hat as a movie. I think some things just shouldn't be messed with, but that's a mindset that just seems more and more marginalized as time goes on.

I can't find the Ellison response on Ellis' page either. I wish I could! I'm sure it would be instructive.

I did find the Ellis comments sort of offensive, not because they attacked Harlan! Ellison! in particular, but because they seemed defeatist. Why live in a state of constant stress? Well, because to live is to war with trolls, or so I've been told.

I think we all would have loved even more Ellison fiction, but the fact is the guy has published a huge amount of it anyway, despite the battles. I think Ellison's confrontational nature and tendency toward standing up for things come from the same place his fiction does. That he has energy to spare. And that however embarrassing the titles of "gadfly" and "enfant terrible" are, they're just words, and are a price worth paying. Ellison has maintained his integrity and courage, and that's an extraordinary and inspiring thing.

Ellis in Ellison
Funny thing about outspoken types - sometimes they say something confrontational. Go figure.

I agree with Ellis in the wonder over what could have been put to the page had that additional energy spent on championing the Right been focused on the craft. I wonder that, too. I wonder how many short stories would have been created had the indignation or outrage over something not distracted from the inspiration to create another twenty pages of fiction. Taking it further, how many opporunities to create were lost sitting in a court room or chomping on about the latest troll in the Pavilion. Sure, but that assumes that Ellison is just a writer. That's kinda like saying Martin Luther King was just a public speaker.

I'm sure any writer worth his paycheck could sit in front of a computer or typewriter all day and night and constantly draw metallic rainbow goodness from his or her ass if that's all they were designed to do, and I think Ellis makes this assumption about Ellison.

Perhaps Ellis is wondering about the number and nature of SOME of those conflicts and is considering what could have been created instead of sweating "the small stuff"?

Of course, the same could be said of Ellis. How many comic book reinventions could we have seen if Ellis didn't have his own 'blog to maintain? Perhaps we'd have more Avatar press books with his Lovecraftian/Noir stories? Who knows?

Awww, damn-- and I just sent the guy an email.

Here is what I wrote...

Dear Mr. Ellis,

While your observation of Harlan Ellison as a magician of prose would be indicative of at least a single solar flare of awareness, your comment regarding " garden twine and lego" ( lego?) advertises your unfortunate lack of understanding to be further complicated by a lamentable deficiency of manners.

But do take heart, Mr.Ellis, the term "gadfly" is something you need not concern yourself with, neither should you risk losing "endless days and nights" kicking against terminology that will never pertain to you. The quality of your correspondence here leaves scant doubt that your presence will be of as little consequence as a doggy nini gnat, worthy of less than a twitch, let alone a swat.

It would appear that it is not yours to question the manner in which a man like Mr.Ellison lives his life when you would spend yours endeavoring to slight your betters and laying waste to the concept of common decency in an average man.

Cindy Jones


Okay, I know NOBODY needs help with this kinda thing LESS than Harlan, but I couldn't help myself.


Frank tomorrow I'll give you that run down on Mystic River ( and ah DO mean run down)

In the meantime,I'll be kickin' at pricks myself tomorrow. My mother's attorney on her wrongful termination suit took her money and dropped the case so tomorrow I have to speak on her behalf and cross examine witnesses at a hearing in San Antone.

Wish me eloquence and wisdom and the ability to cool it.

:)
Cindy

Ellis Site?
OK, I don't know about you guys, but I don't see any place on Warren Ellis' website that involves communications from other parties....such as Harlan's response. Can someone provide a link?

As for his comment supplied by Ray Carlson: I saw nothing wrong with it. Not everyone with opinions needs to bow down at the feet of Harlan in respect to all that he chooses to do and write....that would result in a very dull world. Warren's 100-year old comment was just some creative jibing; not some horrid, disrespectful jab at an enemy for doing what comes natural (as long as we stay away from dangerous crosswalks, nuts with guns and knives, and falling space shuttles).

In a way, I asked a similar question of Harlan about a year ago: does he ever get so frustrated with the AOL battle and just want to throw up his hands and say "enough!", I can't fight for what's left of my life. It's not worth it....I have things I have to do.

Harlan didn't find me disrespectful when I asked that.....and I don't see Warren Ellis' jibe as disrespectful either.

Besides....what's so bad about being disrespectful? You guys and gals are disrespectful to President Bush. Rush Limbaugh (forget the drug addiction, I recall a few "he's gone deaf? If only he would die" comments). I've been disrespectful of both Clintons. If I had a large platform to pursue my disrespectfulness of anyone I loathe, I would certainly not shy from using it, and neither would any of you.

So, even if Ellis was being disrespectful.....it's his right, ain't it?

-TODD

...and yo, Ray Carlson, 's kewl, dawg. Everthang be copa an' setic. Eff anyone wanna geddinta this thang, I be down wi' that.

One hundred year old Harlan

WARREN ELLIS COMMENTS

For anyone curious, I have handled the "Warren Ellis" matter with a posting at his website. You may venture thenceward if you so choose.

Harlan

MY DECISION TO POST ELLIS QUOTE

I hate to do this, but looks like I'm gonna have to, as Desi would say, esplain my decision to post the Warren Ellis quote. First, I in no way, as stated earlier, wished to stir up shit or get a rise out of Harlan. I don't operate that way. I posted the quote because I thought it was of interest not just to Harlan but to all of you, and worthy of discussion and dissection. If it were just a hurtful hatchet job I never, ever would have passed it along.

I feel Mr. Ellis articulates some valid, thoughtful points as he looks inward at himself and measures what he sees against that of Harlan Ellison. Obviously, Ellis admires Harlan very much or he wouldn't be using him as a benchmark or measuring stick. Sure, some of his mild criticism is a bit too pointed, but like Harlan, Ellis is not one to pull punches. It is what I like and admire about both men. In fact the thing that attracted me most to Harlan as a person and then as a writer is his straightforward, no-nonsense, no-holds-barred approach to life. He is honest and forthright, with himself and others and takes shit off no one. HE is willing to fight to the death for what he believes is right. He's a guy you would want as a friend and beside you in a foxhole. But, the battles do take a toll and Mr. Ellis is merely asking the question, is it worth the time and creative energy. I believe it's a question Harlan has asked himself many times as we all do.

Warren Ellis
The amusing thing about Warren Ellis' comments is that this is the guy who created Spider Jerusalem. While Jerusalem is inspired by Hunter Thompson, he evokes Ellison. He often sounds like Ellison. And his social activism resembles Ellison's far more than Thompson's (although his drug intake and clowning around resembles the Thompson of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"). Spider Jerusalem is the polar opposite of what Ellis espouses in those comments. He's a dedicated activist, a man who is willing to burn out rather than fade away.

That said, I don't think Ellis' comments are particularly nasty. He plainly admires Harlan. He just doesn't want to be Harlan. But there's more of Harlan in Ellis' writing than Ellis is acknowledging--at least, here.

Juvies
Harlan & Susan,

According to UPS tracking site, the package is out for delivery, so you should get it today. Where it was for 4 days between Lenexa KS & Vernon CA is beyond me. Sorry it's taking so long.

Bests,

--tr

Ellis comments
First I'll admit my ignorance: I don't know anything about Warren Ellis. But the quote below doesn't seem to me to be an attempt at getting a rise out of HE or anyone else. It's pretty mild criticism. OK the "hundred years old" comment was snotty and uncalled-for, but what I see in that paragraph is grudging admiration. Despite what the guy says, don't you get the feeling he wishes he were doing the same? And this is maybe his excuse not to?

Posting this, here, is the tactical equivalent of tossing a handful of pennies into a spinning drier to hear them bang.


http://www.conservativebookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6230&sour_cd=WC00026

Truth, Lies and Social Darwinism

Truth and Lies.

If you have ever seen the Blair Witch Project, you will know exactly why screenwriters should lie. The most terrifying thing about that film was the improvised dialog showing the pathetic, impoverished way in which the youth of America converse: "I'm fuckin' scared, man! Fuck, I'm fuckin' scared! I'm so fuckin's scared, Man!"

Yes, this is the unvarnished truth. If you actually wrote reality as it is, it would be tedious beyond endurance. That's why Orson Welles always went for an aesthetic that was "not real but true."

As for telling the truth behind a mask, just put on a mask or a tie on a Superman cape and within seconds you'll know why lying, feigning, faking, frauding have always been a road to deeper truths.

It seems like this question might be from the department of questions that go under the heading, "If you have to ask. . ." Sit in front of a typewriter for five minutes, and you'll start to realize this stuff.

-------------------

Now as for all this Social-Darwinist crap about herds. Stephen Jay Gould would say that the species must be preserved as a whole. That's what makes the species really strong--its genetic diversity. We can never know when the weakest or poorest member will contribute something that saves the race. Competition occurs between one species and another. Sure their are alpa males and females, but they can't exist without those betas and gammas. And since LaMarck was proved wrong, it isn't the amount of information you learn at college that makes you more viable, but actually the superiority of your brain's design. There were probably some real Einstein Neanderthals who never got to pass along their genetic material because they were Stanley Steamers in a Model T world.

Grow one potato across a state and you'll wind up killing all your potatoes the minute a blight strikes. Domestic herds are always susceptible to disease. That's why information must occasionally come from the outside.

Thank you. I'm all out of potatoes.

Steve Dooner

--------------------

Chris asked, "Is he just saying everything he can to justify a continuing teaching position despite a lack of actual writing credits...?"

Sounds like it.

And I don't think Ray should have posted that Ellis missive. Doesn't contribute anything to anything other than to try to get a rise out of HE. Ellis' statements should engender nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders.

Hoping Rush will have a relapse,
Rich

Brian wrote:

*I don't think anyone here would reply, "No, honesty isn't important at all. Lie like hell, *

I'm sure you're right about the fine folks at the forum but a lot of people, including people who are in aposition to advise writers, say just this thing.

As a teacher of mine (an Oscar nominated screenwriter no less) informed the class "Your job is to tell lies to losers."

Richard Walter, head of the screenwriting program at UCLA, advises screenwriters to "Lie through your teeth." Of course, he also claims "Screenwriters must embrace authentic self-disclosure, no matter how painful, as the organizing principle of their creative lives." Is he just saying everything he can to justify a continuing teaching position despite a lack of actual writing credits or is he sincerely trying to describe the dichotomy that most writers must confront? I don't know which.

I haven't yet figured out how to get past the idea that everything I write is "just made-up." This idea doesn't seem to bother the other people in the program and I admit it may simply be a clear indicator that I need to try something else. Still, I jumped into this program with the idea that I could tell the truth and I'm certain good writers can do that. Perhaps this is a defining characteristic separating the good writer from the mediocre or bad writer.

P.A. BERMAN: I'm on the Ellis mailing list as well, and the bit Warren put in about Harlan put me off.

You ask, "how much effort should a thinking, creative person expend kicking against pricks?"

My answer, from the simple, black-and-white world I often find myself living in: AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. Even if it's only in the smallest of ways. And there are whole smattering of "Because"s for that answer.

Because there are too many of them, and the herd must be culled.
Because, if not for the thinking, creative people, who else would? And who else would have the chance to do so with any modicum of success?
Because it keeps said person from him- or herself BECOMING one.
Because it makes it easy--yes, even when bloodied, with split lip, boxed ears, blackened eyes, and aching gut--for said person to stand tall and straight and smile in the mirror.
Because they CANNOT be allowed--and they have too often and too much been allowed--to take over.
Because in doing so, one enriches one's work and one's life.
(Personally, I don't quite get what Warren is saying--for myself, I never have written so much or with such passion than when I have been driven on by anger. My two fingers move across the typewriter faster than all ten of a precision secretary's, the thoughts come pouring out and coalesce into well-wrought words, and my brain crackles more with a divine electricity than ever it has when I am not, perhaps, in the midst of an epileptic seizure.)

And another "Because" ... When you have spent a life jabbing out the angry foot at the asinine, the lying, the mendacious, the greedy, the backstabbing ... then the moments when you can throw back your head and laugh carefree become all the sweeter.

And one last.
In no way to I think of myself a saint. But I think to a day I hope will come soon, when I shall have a wife and home and child to raise. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'll ever be able to tell my daughter, my son, that I never backed down.
... But I'll forever do my damndest to work this life so that one day I can tell them that I never backed down when it MATTERED.

LEE: I didn't get the feeling that Warren was in any way trying to be hurtful; he just was WRONG, is all.
(And the man HAS often gone out of his way to acknowledge Harlan as an influence)

MORE than enough has been submitted in the Hess case…but, well, you know how it is:

Right off I want to apologize to Harlan and Jim for the direction things took

My criticism of Jim’s rhetoric was MEANT to be light-hearted in spirit. I wasn’t angry; I did get caustic and smart-assed but I wasn’t trying to hand him to a burly 17th century hangman. Harlan, the problem, I feel, rests with the point you made: "Jim was asking a question…a question I ask myself a thousand times." Well…Jim’s aim SEEMED to me - and Jim, REALLY, correct me if I got it all wrong - rather the opposite: he’d formulated conclusions and kept coming back with the equivalent of, "NONE of ya got it!" We INVITED his input (please recall I told him in my last post that it "may be as substantive as anyone else's"). But he seemed too preoccupied with his game (which no one was playing) to elucidate…

and that’s FINE…except he bedecked it with cockiness…and so I countered in jest. I HAD to kid around with him.

I didn’t want you to get trashed on, Jim. I just wanted you to put the breaks on what I perceived as bullshit and contribute what I’m sure would have been worthwhile. And I don’t want you to split. You have Harlan behind you so you’ve no reason to take off. (I feel, in the name of integrity, we should all scroll back through our posts, myself and Jim included, to see how our words really resonate; it wouldn’t be the first time we’d found they didn’t deliver quite what we had in mind.).

Isn’t this what dialogue is about?

Ellis’ comments display classless hurtfulness burning through a screen of badly faked pity.

And the message is illogical enough that it really doesn’t deserve direct comment.

But it does fuel the eternal and unquenchable brushfire of criticism that burns around the feet of the truly unique.

Ellis, in his own small way, is just doing his part to prove that everything he is saying about Ellison is wrong.

Re the Jim Hess question. I don't have any regrets about busting on Jim's question-- sorry, Harlan, but his comments about our replies not being what he'd wanted struck me as more than a little swinish.

Consider that first question, i.e., "How important is honesty to a writer?" Right off, it's a loaded question: we think honesty is an important quality in damn near _any_ context, and I don't think anyone here would reply, "No, honesty isn't important at all. Lie like hell, misrepresent, make up shit, libel decent people, tell people stuff you don't believe in, be disingenuous and nasty and false as much as you like." So Jim's telling us that the answer he'd _wanted_ was, in all likelihood, the simplest and easiest and least challenging answer to give.

So there really wasn't much point to his asking-- but his reply, about our failing to come up with some "right" answer-- indicates that his "point" had little to do with obtaining advice or information.

I will pass along a somewhat frustrating thing that comes out of _my_ honesty, namely, my cat allergies. Y'all know I don't like cats very much, and the fact that their dander makes me spill a Niagra of snot doesn't help things much. So if I'm trying to meet someone, maybe with an eye for dating or romance, I have to be a bit wary about the presence of cats.

HOWEVER: When I browse the Personals, nearly all of the nicest profiles list "My cats," _plural_, as something they couldn't live without. I mention my cat problem in my profile mainly because I'd rather not have that item sprung on anyone later on. And half the time when I contact someone nifty who doesn't _mention_ their cat, they see my profile... and then I get a message that starts, "Before we go any farther, I have to ask you about your cat allergy, because my cat is..." I try to be as polite as possible. But those conversations never get past the cat-clarification stage.

Needless to say, I haven't had much luck through the Personals. (My photo's also pretty horrible, too.) Aren't there any decent, intelligent, personable single women out there who don't own cats? I mean, I wouldn't want to pursue someone who owns a cat, knowing that if the relationship turns serious, I'd have to ask her to part with her companion. That'd be _cruel_. So out of simple decency, I have to shut myself away from a lot of otherwise wonderful, intelligent women.

(Don't suggest allergy shots. I dislike cats anyway, and I don't have health insurance to pay for it.)

The Importance of Being Too Earnest

Whenever I post, I really worry about when I start to become a bad date--You know, the kind that goes on all night long about politics or about stock options.

I think it's good that most posters here are in earnest. It is a good antidote to the ephemera that fills the web, but we should never become a group of sour, hypercritical MackFlecknoes.

Ever go to a comic book store and ask a simple question about say, in what Spiderman issue Gwen Stacy got killed, and then endure a barage of condescension? Usually, this is a person who ONLY knows what issue Gwen Stacy got killed and who is also determined not to tell you without subjecting you to utter disdain. Well, I would hate to be subjected to that here.

Now, I realize I am also one of the worst offenders when it comes to overlong, over-serious political diatribes, but I do try to let a little light in every once in a while.

I don't know why I wrote all this, but I will say I always appreciate when you folks add a little wit and humor to your posts. I myself was born without a humor gene, so I will bask in the genuine wit of others.

Steve Dooner

Warren Ellis poses a worthy question: how much effort should a thinking, creative person expend kicking against pricks? Should we hoard our energy and use it only on our solitary pursuits? If you are possessed of a certain nature, is that even possible?

I'm no saint, but I find myself wasting FAR too much of my time and strength fighting against wrongs I probably cannot correct (don't forget, I work for the government) on the slight chance that I might make some modicum of difference. I have wondered at length how much more productive I'd be if I chose my battles more carefully, or avoided seemingly senseless conflict altogether.

Yeah, it would be great if I could have the wisdom to know the difference between tilting at windmills and heroic battles. But if I did, I wouldn't be me... and I suspect the same is true of Harlan Ellison. I know I'm flattering myself by the comparison, but those of us who live by the motto "incrementum ex certamine" do suffer a hemmorhage of time and energy, considering the superfluity of pricks that need kicking in this world. Sometimes, the only reward is knowing that you tried, and the ensuing exhaustion can provide an inspiration in itself.

If you're lucky.

If you're not, you wind up with bloody knuckles and a bad rep. Usually, it's a toss up. I wonder what Harlan thinks, considering he's been kicking at pricks roughly twice as long as I have. Mr. Ellison, are you glad you've been an "enfant terrible," or do you wish you'd walked away a little more often?

My two cents (and notice, I didn't mention Jim Hess ONCE!),
PAB

"All bad poetry is sincere"

P.S.

If anyone is interested in the event, I'll post the event info (ticket price etc.). This should be an amazing evening.

Not to mention the fact that a writer has to live *some* kind of life in order to add some flavor to their writing. Ellison has created some of my favorite Cajun cuisine, I ga-rawn-tee! Harlan Ellison writing without living Harlan Ellison's life would just not be the same.

And, let's lay off Jim Hess, shall we?

Chuck

THE WALDORF CONFERENCE
TO ONE AND ALL;

Tickets are selling for THE WALDORF CONFERENCE (November 24th)but, they will accept "walk-ins" on the night. James Cromwell has been added to the cast.

All best--Susan

RAY CARLSON:

The sheer novelty of your decision to post a comment about Harlan Ellison here on the Jim Hess bulletin board inspires me to respond in kind.

What interests me about the comment you quote from Warren Ellis is its assumption that the life lived by a writer is separable from the work produced. We may like to entertain the fantasy of Harlan having retired to an ivory tower to produce dozens of additional volumes of golden prose over the last few decades, isolated from the travails of "endless days and nights of kicking against pricks." I would submit, however, that it _is_ just a fantasy, gratuitous and baseless. Because I don't think anyone who reads Harlan's work could doubt that it is those very travails that inform, in large measure, his best work. I would venture to say that if he had, in fact, written reams of prose from an ivory tower instead of remaining connected to the rest of humanity, the work he produced would likely have been sere and lifeless and scarcely worth the reading. At least by comparison to what he has actually written during those years. The analogy that comes to mind is this: what if someone were to bemoan the fact that we could have had so much more Twain to read if Sam Clemens hadn't wasted all that time learning to pilot a riverboat? Nice fantasy, but it just doesn't scan.

Steve J.

I wasn't aware I was being graded on my answer, I just thought he posed an interesting question and that we each gave our thoughts on the matter. I guess he did come across a little pompous but that's hardly something to get all bent out of shape over.

Juvies
Susan.

Went by UPS, and if their tracking site is to be believed, you should be getting that sucker some time tomorrow.

I'll check tracking again late tomorrow morning & post on whether they've got it marked out for delivery.

Bests,

--tr

I must be the only one who didn't notice the Hess comment. Didn't bother me at all. Let Hess explain himself, and we will hold back on the ritualized dunking tank.

Hess, give us all the 411 my brova. We are all long winded, but we come in love.

----------------

Cindy, you have the Richard Roeper gene. Mystic River is a great film. Go see it again. And, you are not getting away with it that easy. Go to the other board and explain your fault with the film--frame by frame.

That be your homework assaignment, young lass. Yeeehawww.

------------------

Aanold is Govner, and Rush is back on the air, as full of hot air as always.

Uncle Sam needs his penis flogged.

HARLAN,

Below is a reference to you by Warren Ellis from a much longer e-mail message I just now received (I'm on his "Bad Signals" mailing list). Not trying to stir-up trouble, just thought you might be interested in his comments.

Quoted from:

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:19:49 EST


"If I use the word "monkeymass" to describe a vocal section
of the comics "fan" population online, I invoke Harlan
Ellison, who used the word first in my experience. And
there but for the grace of god. The guy's a hundred years
old, but you can still read of him described as an "enfant
terrible," often simply because his personal sense of what
is right is unquiet. Who the hell wants to be an enfant
terrible at thirty-five? It's embarrassing. Who wants to
be a "gadfly," which is how, if I recall correctly, Ellison
described his own journalistic works when he was my age?
It invites swatting. It invites a constant expenditure of
your strength against the lazy palms of people too stupid
to tie your shoes. And look at the guy now. His cardiac
muscle is held together with garden twine and Lego. When
on his game, he's a magician of prose, and I imagine he's
won almost every significant battle he's fought. But I
can't help but wonder how much storytelling was not done,
was lost through endless days and nights of kicking against
pricks. I mean, you read about them in his essays, and I
sit there thinking, why did you elevate these people simply
by gracing them with your time? Why live in a constant
state of stress?"


WarrenE@aol.com

FOR TONY RABIG:

Tony, by what method did you send the book? We still haven't received it and are now getting a little concerned.

Please let us know. Thanks. --Susan

Peggy,

Thanks for letting us know that your mother is recovering well! My fingers and toes are crossed, friend.

Regards,
Joseph

We Didn't Mean No Harm

I approach this post with a great deal of trepidation, still suffering discomfort from the retina burn left over from reading your dismissal of Coleman. I know I’m just a punky little johnny-come-lately, but even so I don’t want to be banished. Being able to participate here means a great deal to me, and I try my best to participate constructively. With that said:

Far from trying to discourage Jim Hess from participating, most of us were rather wishing – more or less rambunctiously - that he would participate more.

It’s not accurate to say that all he did was ask a question. He also posted the following:

November 14 2003
Harlan: Much appreciated, your quick and succinct reply regarding honesty in writing. As to the other replies, have you noticed you actually sidestepped what I asked? Some went from honesty to truth. Some suggested honesty, but by way of honesty not in writing but other things. And some suggested honesty as lies.

Think about all of it, folks. I will get to the point. Soon.

November 15 2003
As we are allowed but one post per day to this arena, let me make mine short and quick: So far, of all the replies--thank you very much, by the by--only Harlan's comes close to what it is I am getting at, with regards to writing.

Stay tuned. And do post.

At this point Rob and I teased Jim because most responses in the thread of discussion were playing off of Brian Siano’s interesting observation that you have also said that you are a paid liar - but Jim seemed to think we were all trying to guess what he personally thought about the importance of honesty in writing, and that we hadn’t made any headway.

Well, Jim didn’t take that well at all. Rob and I apologised immediately. But his sour grapes walk into the shrubbery after all that about how he would get to the point real soon just brought out the devil in us. And what do you expect? Webderland is filled with Ellison fans! A bunch of eclectic, mischevous, contentious, argumentative but basically good-hearted hell raisers.

If you just say what you think, and you are sincere about it, no one involved in this pitiful fracas would have had anything meanspirited to say. But if you start toying with us as a group? Expect the unexpected.

"So far, of all the replies--thank you very much, by the by--only Harlan's comes close to what it is I am getting at, with regards to writing."

I don't know, Harlan. This statement strikes me as being a little too mysterious and condescending. I would probably be insulted, and feel as though someone was playing games with me, if this was the response to my genuine attempt to answer someone's question.

However, if being cryptic or pedantic were a capital crime here, I'd spend half my time burying the bodies.

As wont as rest of you folks are to address the opinions of others by suggesting their holders are unenlightened or unmeritorious, I hardly think Mr. Hess is deserving of your censure. I would suggest allowing him the space to explain himself (and he is more than welcome to post once more today should he desire) before dragging him off to Jack Ketch.

Chiming in on Jim Hess
HARLAN: I completely agree with you regarding any rudeness displayed in the last day or so. But...as I tried to say privately to David Loftus (his email address wouldn't work), I understand if some folks went overboard when addressing Jim Hess -- especially if they had the same experience I had with the man. My animus toward him stems from about a year ago (or longer). It was shortly after (or perhaps around) the time Hess ranted about the racial attitude of those who put on the World Horror Con 2000. He went off on a new visitor and I (thinking I had established some sort of rapport with him via private email, especially after turning him on to a book dealer in KC who had JUST the book he wanted) made a joking aside about Hess being grumpy in the mornings or somesuch. His childish, idiotic retort revolved around his wish that I would die soon because I wouldn't be missed. Needless to say, I wrote him off.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps no one else on the board had a run-in with the "other" Jim Hess. But I wanted to tell you my experience, on the off-chance that one or two of the other regulars may have had similar encounter. Which would explain any long-festering, bad feelings.

Your bud in KC,
Dorman

Thanks
Thanks for the kind thoughts and prayers Melissa, Lee, Dorie, Jon, Chuck, Joseph, and Cindy (and any anyone else I've missed, or heck, even anyone who thought kindly but didn't post it like I often do). It's helped over the last week or so.

My mom is recovering well from the surgery and I should have news tomorrow about her long-term treatment and outlook. Also, we seemed to have moved to at least a 2 week planning schedule (as opposed to every few days) which brings a little more stability to our Fugawian existence.

Thanks again....
Peg

I stand my ground

In my considered judgment, Harlan, Jim pulled a sort of bait-and-switch on us, and has assumed a pose of superiority that more than one of us on the list took as insulting, and that's why we responded as we have -- individually, I might add, not as a pack. I really couldn't care what anybody else wrote in response to Hess; I responded from my own perspective.

Mr. Hess may be a fine person, and an excellent writer -- I would have no idea; I do not know the man -- but in this particular instance, he posed what appeared to be an interesting and engaging question, then appeared to condescend to us after we participated in a discussion of what we thought was a chat among equals . . . only to learn that Mr. Hess "knew" the answer all along and was mostly just testing us.

I didn't say this earlier, but it also struck me as a new and ingenious method of kissing your ass, Harlan. "All you benighted souls are off the mark, but Mr. Ellison has the key -- all congrats to him for being a smart boy, unlike the rest of you."

Sorry, but it rubbed me very much the wrong way. I certainly didn't wish for Mr. Hess to leave the board, either; I'm always up for more discussion. He just didn't appear willing to engage in discussion, but only to condescend, and he's the one who grandiloquently announced his departure, unbidden, after we had "failed his exam."

It still stinks to me.

I am appalled at your behavior toward Jim Hess. Those of you who have assailed him for what seem to me misguided animus and cryptic transgressions, ought to be ashamed of your Ox-Bow lynch mob mentality. As far as I can tell from reading all that has gone before, he is innocent of all save asking a question ... a question I ask myself a thousand times. Shame on you, each of you, but especially you, David Loftus. You are much too fine a person to act in such a niggardly manner.

I hope Jim Hess is NOT driven away by this sorry display of rudeness.

Harlan

Monsieur Hess, Esquire

> Here is, I think, a clue to the answer: The answer
> Harlan Ellison graciously posted is the closest to
> the answer *I* was looking for.
> Good luck. I hope you find what you are looking for.

I don't recall that anyone came on here looking for "the answer," or even "an answer," except Mr. Hess himself. I don't recall signing up for a workshop or paying money to Mr. Hess to enlighten me in the mysterious ways of the pen and keyboard, such that he should assume the right to address me or anyone else here as if he were our superior, in a forum where we customarily address one another as equals.

Thanks for so graciously enlightening us, Mr. Hess, but thanks even more for leaving.

What an asshole.

Argh. No sooner do I use my one-post allotment than I come across this _Guardian_ article about Jean Cocteau and Edith Piaf. So, I gotta give y'all the link:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1079383,00.html

It begins:

"Edith Piaf and Jean Cocteau died on the same day. Cocteau, chivalrous at the last, obeyed the rule of ladies first. "Ah, la Piaf est morte," he said on the morning of October 11 1963. "Je peux mourir aussi." [Ah, Piaf's dead. I can die too."] And then he promptly died of a heart attack. Or so legend has it."

Jim's comment makes me raise another point: how important is honesty in asking questions?

It's one thing if someone asks a fairly profound question, such as "How important is honesty in writing?" One should expect to get several replies, provided in good faith.

But it's another to get these replies, and then announce that there was some hidden "correct" answer that we were apparently expected to match. Then it becomes an ego-game, where the "questioner" asserts a higher knowledge or status.

And Jim's comment about the answer he was "looking for" indicates that his original question was _far_ from honest. After all, if he had an answer that he was looking for, then why ask us in the first place? And if he had such an answer, then he clearly came to us with some presupposed notion of what we were to say.

All in all, a very dishonest performance from Jim Hess.

As usual, Rob can't for the life of him, respond without getting a jab in here and there (yes, yes, I see the irony in even making that statement, but I must, nay, am compelled to state it), HOWEVER, in his own convoluted way, I agree with Rob (and Lee) that this is not a RIGHT or WRONG answer---at least as we've been discussing it---but only a matter of degree in how strongly one feels regarding honesty in writing.

Basically, Harlan said you cannot have writing (actually should be prefaced with "good") without honesty, but I would surmise, Jim, that most people responded not only to your query, but to Brian's ruminations on the subject and the paradox that it entails.

So we're all winners. Just like those losers in Special Olympics.

Correction: "But I think each of us - myself included - imparted HIS own observations".

Jim Hess,

With all due respect...

(And I am literally posting all this with a smile)

C'mon. Loosen up and stop pouting. How could I resist taking a shot at a line like, "So far, of all the replies--thank you very much, by the by--only Harlan's comes close to what it is I am getting at".

I mean it does hold what you might call an air of hubris. And, man, am I fanning the air.

The simple point is I don't think anyone was trying surmise whatever point YOU were after. I don't think anyone was trying to find this "clue" of yours. You keep posting with some notion that we're playing this game. Like, "god, let's really try to figure out what Jim wuz a gettin' at". Several people submitted some excellent and valid comments on the topic. But I think each of us - myself included - imparted our own observations. It's not a subject encompassed by one definition. Honesty? It's a subjective dynamic. A guy lives. This guy, if he has the talent, communicates the impact life has had on him; the inner condition he aspires to reach or strives to tear from. He looks in - not out - to lay bare the connection between him and what he has lived. (This is true of all art forms, btw, not JUST writing)

So...this wasn't some competition for that free trip to Bali (which I'm sure is where you'd love to send me). I believe everyone was examining the question from their own viewpoints, regardless of what you had to submit. If you have your own angle on the topic go TO it. It may be as substantive as anyone else's. But if you want to walk off in a huff, unaccountable for the language you chose to use (inviting a few ribs), that's absolutely cool as well. I doubt we'll be feeling left hanging. Because I thoroughly enjoyed Steve Dooner's comments. I don't feel "empty-handed" at all.

"Here is the clue to the answer"!? I don't give a fuck.

Apology to Jim Hess

Jim,

Please don’t be offended if some people, including myself, have poked a little fun at the way you have persued this question of how important honesty is in writing. I find your behavior over the last several days to be strange, but I know you are just trying to contribute to interesting discussion like the rest of us. Please accept my apologies if I have offended you. I didn’t mean any harm.

The problem I have with your assertion that Harlan’s answer is *closest* to what you were looking for is that I don’t see any answer more definitive than the one that he gave. Your question ‘How important is honesty in writing?’ demands as a response a statement concerning degree of importance. Harlan answered, ‘How important are lungs in breathing?’ i.e. Writing as he defines it does not exist without honesty. It is absolutely fundamental to his craft and is of the highest possible degree of importance.

Where do you go from there? How can that be only *close* to the answer you were looking for, unless you think that honesty is not as important in writing as Harlan thinks it is? I hope you will elaborate on what you’ve been dangling in front of us without actually saying for the last week, and not back away from the discussion. I am honestly interested to hear what you have to say.

All right, here is the short of the long regarding the question previously posed here--how important is honesty in writing: I have decided, having read the replies posted here, that I am going to leave the answer to greater minds, including 'Rob'.

I won't go, though, leaving you empty-handed. Here is, I think, a clue to the answer: The answer Harlan Ellison graciously posted is the closest to the answer *I* was looking for.

Good luck. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Signed,

James C. Hess

Cthulhu Beanie
Todd~ That was me. The Toy Vault not only has the Christmas Cthulhu (complete with bells on the tips of his tentacles), they also have Summer Fun Cthulhu (straw hat, hawaiian shirt, sandals). He looks like a retiree from Ft. Lauderdale. It's great!

L.

Cthulu Beanie
Hey Lynn, were you the person on this board who used to beam with pride at your Cthulu beanie baby, or was someone else? Regardless, I recently saw the same beanie baby all decked out for Christmas. It wasn't someone's idea of a joke, it was an official Christmas Cthulu.

Just thought I would give you the head's up in case you didn't know about it.

-TODD

Fingerprints on the Sky
Tim Richmond, Barney Dannelke, and/or anyone else who knows:

What is the status of the Ellison bibliography, FINGERPRINTS ON THE SKY?

Honesty in writing as a topic in itself seems almost unanswerable. I think we'd be on surer ground if we gave some concrete examples, both the good and the bad. James Patterson, in my opinion, is a dishonest writer. Why? Because people are not as simple as he makes them seem. He has attorneys, for instance, mouthing Kindergarten-level dialogue. One female protagonist, I kid you not, when asked what she looks for in a man, replies, "Someone with soft hands."

Am I the only one tired of needlessly complicated plots? "Aha, the killer is really the podiatrist...and a vampire!" In Patterson's work, plausibility goes out the window. Perhaps I sound particularly bitchy, but I've rarely read a book so dumb that I wanted to hurl it against the wall.

Simplicity in writing is often an admirable display of craft. Ray Bradbury and John Collier say much in few words. Reading Patterson's work, on the other hand, makes me feel like I've lost several precious braincells.

Bizarrolicious
You can find the strangest things at roadside gift shops on the edge of the known world (also known as Palmdale, CA). There were only two, and I bought both of them. Aren't they bizarrolicious? (SUSAN~ Make Harlan take a look at the last link. It's *right* up his alley.)

http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/giger_baby_profile_three_qtr.jpg

http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/giger_baby_profile_left.jpg

http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/giger_baby_profile_right.jpg

and for those of you who require better lighting (i.e. snapped with the flash on):

http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/giger_baby_well_lit.jpg

Oh, for the love of the ever-bleedin' Christ, I don't recall Jim Hess pulling any such hornswoggling or grumpifying as he's being accused of.

On the other hand, I'd like to apologize to Peg -- because of my scattershot reading of your post, I managed to express worries about your cat without bothering to express worries about your mother first. I hope everything turns out fine.

Take care, Jon

Mystic river take my mind....
I haven't seen MYSTIC RIVER yet...I enjoyed the book and am wondering how much was changed. I'm probably just going to wait for video. I'm still pleased that it's doing well because hopefully more people will buy Dennis Lehane's work...I think his latest, SHUTTER ISLAND, would make a great film. Maybe someone will get around to noticing George Pelecanos while they're at it.

Best film I have seen this year by far is AMERICAN SPLENDOR.
Actually, there's not much else that has come close. We're strapped for cash so we see most things at home now. I'm not really that interested in MASTER AND COMMANDER--I really doubt I'll see anything else until RETURN OF THE KING.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jim Hess...

As we all failed so wretchedly in our competition for the JIM HESS PRIZE FOR WRITING, the ONE award to elude even HARLAN (by earshot), we await Hess' words with gnashing of teeth, sweat, and forrowed brows.

Soon the dark will turn to light; Jim's words shall surely illuminate us like the rays of a new dawn.

What, one must wonder, will it all mean? Will it be some divine manifestation of the Galactic Federation of Light? Arcane teachings from ancient scrolls? Long forgotten studies by the grand overlords of the Anunnaki?

Or will Jim unveil sercrets so shattering, so terrible that those who hear it cannot live?

Whatever the price, Jim Hess, we anxiously await the curtain to be drawn so that we may be enlightened by your great words.

For in the hierarchy of ideas we are humbled. We KNOW nothing. We ARE nothing. FREE us, Jim. FREE us of this miry clay.

Revelation...is at hand.

Stay Tuned
JIM HESS: "So far, of all the replies--thank you very much, by the by--only Harlan's comes close to what it is I am getting at, with regards to writing. Stay tuned"

...

Peggy,

I'm so sorry to hear about your recent troubles. I'll pray that things turn out to be better than you expected or planned and that your Mom will make a full recovery.
When you wrote about the person whom you considered to be a close friend being mean to you-- I felt sad. Nobody needs to be wounded, particularly by those they care deeply for.

Hang on, things will turn around soon, I'm certain of it.
Cindy


Steve Dooner,

I sympathize with everything you conveyed in your post about Veterans Day. I did not know about any moratorium on the coverage of memorial services-- if that is accurate then I'm with you, it's bullshit. If we as a nation are going to send our sons and daughters off to war then we should be REQUIRED to see, close up, the bloody coin of the realm we're dealing in.

I believe that the unspeakable things Saddam inflicted on those helpless souls for years made it necessary for him to be driven out at the very least. If oil was the impetus for our charge up the hill then I am grateful for the oil. We should have done it sooner. We as the most powerful nation on the planet sink to the level of those who silently witnessed Kitty Genovese's murder when we see things like this and do nothing.

I thank you, Steve Dooner for the kind and careful way you worded your post. I have never considered you to be an adversarial soul. Your messages are frank and factual. Your political tendencies and mine are polar opposites but your quick mind and your honest observations-- are of enormous value to me. I like to have new perspectives to consider-- folks like you and Frank help me to gage the underpinnings of my core beliefs. For for that and for you, I am enormously grateful.

When I read what you wrote, " I have enormous respect and admiration for you, Cindy. " I was deeply touched and honored.

I feel the same about you, Steve Dooner.

:)
Cindy

Hey Frank,
Your farting on Mary comment was like a smack in the face for attention grabbing. I give you 10s on it.

yer pal,
Cindy


Last night I went to see Mystic River which should have been called " Toxic Sludge". It was too deep-- too damned poignant (emphasis on the "G") and too easy to call. I usually love Clint Eastwood's work as a director. This one was way over done. The visuals were laid on with a trowel-- and on at least one occasion, I (literally) had to close my eyes on a spinning shot to keep from getting sick.

Not ONLY did it not live up to all of the hype, we're talkin' stink here. As in carry it out of the house and put it in the OUTside trashcan. If Mystic River had lips it would make sucking sounds.
Yuck, yuck- OH and YUCK.


Of course that's just MY opinion.

;)
Cindy

THANK YOU Brian, I will invest the four bucks to see Master and Commander on the big screen at the Odeon and I will look FORWARD to getting the nasty taste of Mystic River out of my mouth.

:)
Cindy

I don't know what Jim Hess is after, but I haven't responded to the honesty string because I think Harlan put it so succinctly, why beat the horse? I'm eager to see where Mr. Hess is going with this.

Bill

Hokay, I saw _Master and Commander_. We all know the conflcited loyalties one has when one sees a film based on a favorite book, or books. We _want_ to see a film that does the book verbatim, that captures the characters the way we saw them, or maybe illuminates them in ways we couldn't imagine when we read them. But, a film's got to work as a _film_. It's got to attract the allegiance of an audience that would never read the book. It's got to get the job done in two hours.

As a film, _Master and Commander_ works wonderfully. Russell Crowe's fine as Jack Aubrey, though he's a bit more "geroic," and less John Bull-ish, than I'd imagined Aubrey. The naval battles are amazing, accurate, and terrifying. The film dwells a lot on the day-to-day details of living at sea, which means us O'Brian fans get to wallow in one of the books' best points. There are more than enough of the books' "high points" (Stephen's deck-surgery on a mate's brains, the nighttime decoy, Aubrey's dinnertime wit, Killick's toasted-cheese) to make us fans happy. And the film tells a good, fine, self-contained adventure story that should satisfy moviegoers.

In other words, the only faults I could make require me to say how the film comes up short against the books.

The most important point here is that Stephen Maturin gets shortchanged. In the film, he's played by Paul Bettany, whose gentle looks certainly convey Maturin's intelligence. But the Maturin of the books isn't an attractive man; in fact, he's short, a little threadbare, half-Irish and half-Catalan, and sort of a prickly cross between Sherlock Holmes and Samuel Johnson, with an accent on the science-geekiness. He collect animal specimens, spends his leisure time dissecting specimens (in the books, he even acquires an orphan's corpse for this purpose), and-- this is important-- works as a spy against Napoleon. He is a strange one, and I suspect he's O'Brian's own stand-in in the books. But the movie defaults him to a likeable, humane, and somewhat overly sensitive stand-in for, well, a 21st-century participant.

So we didn't get Stephen Maturin in the movie. And I did find myself wishing that they hadn't kept the violence down; I don't _like_ violence, but showing how devastating a cannonball hit was to a ship, how lethal an oak splinter could be, how quickly one had to saw off a shattered arm so that the patient didn't die, would have given a stronger sense of Life at Sea in those days.

Theophany Rising
Jim,

Am I losing my mind, or did you just imply that Harlan Ellison – one of the undisputed greatest writers of our generation – has something to learn from you about the importance of honesty in writing?

I can’t imagine what marvelous nugget of mind expanding wisdom you are preparing for us, but it had better be good!



PS

I’m technically OK vs the double post, having bracketed midnight, but I’ll keep my mouth shut 'till Monday as a show of good faith.

As we are allowed but one post per day to this arena, let me make mine short and quick: So far, of all the replies--thank you very much, by the by--only Harlan's comes close to what it is I am getting at, with regards to writing.

Stay tuned. And do post.

Until next time. . .

Jim Hess

Truth, Integrity, Certainty and Denial

Truth is in the domain or art and ideality. It is odd that truth is often reached by lying, as in the myths of the Bible or Ovid's Metamorphoses. The atheist Santayana explained his love for Christianity by saying it is not true but it is truth.

Integrity seems to be what some people mean when they talk about the truth. This one's hard--just saying what you mean and doing what you say. This is how you keep hold of your friends and loved ones over time. I work on this one all the time.

Honesty? Well, you got me on this one. I'm not sure it exists, but I have noticed that honesty is subjective and that women and men seem to be honest in different ways. I have known people who have been honest to a fault and who take sadistic joy in hurting people with their honesty. "You are putting on weight," they will say, and then they will run behind honesty like some flag of truce, while all the time a pleasured and abusive gleam flares in their eye. I have seen these same people tell cosmic lies about how much they love their parents, when they hadn't seen the old nusances in months. Oh yes, that's true. And, just as true, I've seen other folks who have told a thousand thousand small lies to keep from hurting others, while everyday they walked on the path of complete truth. I don't know if there's honesty but I do know there's irony.

And Just before we start walking into the deadly lands of deconstruction, let me also say their is also certainty and fact. You can't be a goddamn lawyer about everything.

For instance, there's mathematical certainty. You know, "one and one is two."

And then there's fact, like the Holocaust happened, and you don't even have to read Michael Shermer or Deborah Lipstadt to known that it happened, but if it helps, go get there books. Shermer, a great skeptic and historian, explains why it's so hard for an average person to carry all the physical records, the preponderance of evidence and the exact calculations that make for proper historical judgement. Instead, we wind up listening to the tradition of history and we wind up accepting much of it on faith. Then somebody comes along with a small contradiction and your faith in history crumbles like a house of cards.

Well guess what? That's why you have to read. The great anxiety of the Twentieth Century is that we now have a deadly serious responsibility to know this stuff--so the weasels don't get in power. But instead all the pressures of modern people have made a world full of wimpering and whining jellyfish, who actually say things like, "I don't like to think" or "I don't have time to read" or "When I get home from work, I just like to tune out." Well, that's how the little men with silly mustaches and armbands will make their comeback.

And Gore Vidal is right when he says that this time, the fascists won't have silly mustaches, this time they'll be pretty blonde's in designer clothes on Fox's American Morning broadcast, or they'll be slack-jawed Texans in fashionable suits who tell you about Patriotism and God. And then we'll start invading other countries just to get their resources, and then . . .

Selah,

Steve Dooner

Truth? Honesty? I'm So Confused!

My two year old daughter met me at the door last night. Drawing me by one finger to the couch, she climbed into my lap without a word or a smile and stared solemnly straight into my eyes. There was a long suspended moment. Satisfied, she tucked her head under my chin and let her eyes drop shut to the beating of my heart.

‘Just for a small and forgotten time
I have had full in my eyes from off my girl
The whitest pouring of eternal light –‘ from ‘Black Marigolds’, translated from the ancient sanskrit

Honestly, isn’t it true that the truth never changes as long as you’re honest?

Jim H., I think most people posting here can puzzle out that truth is not quite the same as honesty; and also that catalyzing a discussion is not quite the same as being at the center of one.

I remember how many times in writing classes where someone would write something based on events that had happened to them and yet it would sound less true than something totally made-up. I think it's a fine line...the writer ultimately is teling the truth even if the events exist only inside his head, because storytelling resonates within the reader. The trees are real even if the forest isn't.

Delurking
Harlan,

Glad to hear your back is feeling better. And, I like the picture I just noticed of you and Clifford Meth, promoting "god's 15 minues" (standard plug that all proceeds go to KICK):

http://www.aardwolfpublishing.com

Peggy,

My best wishes for your mother. I know things look grim, but I really, really hope and pray that things get better for you and yours.

Regards and friendship,
Joseph J. Finn

People lie because they know they can get away with it. Truth is the candy nobody wants after Halloween is long over.

Tell someone the truth, they act like you just farted on the Virgin Mary. Lies comfort us, because they protect us from the beasts we live to keep caged.

Responding to Chris' conundrum...

What's wrong with lying ANYWAY? If you're tormented by a conscience, become a monk. Otherwise, trash the ethics and lie like bloody hell. I think it becomes less of a quandary when we understand that every lie has its basis in fact. If I contrive some story to cover my ass when a creditor comes pounding on my door with a writ I might tell him I haven't any money when I do; but I may try to explain WHY I don't have the cash. If I DO that, I'll want the story to be sound. I would model it after things that really happen to people (lost my job, the IRS took it all, I got raped and looted by my roommate, etc). If I didn't, he wouldn't believe me. I have to make him believe me. So, when we're asked to "smooth" out narrative in a script it's because we haven't achieved that CONVINCING lie. My creditor ain't gonna believe it.

Sometimes we lie out of desperation. Writing for an audience or a smart readership is another kind of desperation. In fiction, the most convincing thing of all has to be the emotions. You use truelife events to an extent as a basis for a story; but you project it with your feelings about the events or the characters. If you feel nothing you're not going to be able to write it. Your lie won't be convincing. (Furthermore, if you can transport yourself while you're watching a movie - suspending disbelief and buying someone else's lie - why can't you do same by closing your eyes and imagining YOURSELF in a set of events? Become a learned daydreamer and you'll find this easy to do.)

So...in summary, I think you should trash your sense of morality and think of yourself as Nixon-For-A-Day; see how MUCH you can get away with in the lie; find a true-life model for the events you have to depict; BUT explore your feelings about those events in the abstraction. That's where a profound aspect of truth emerges (that's what I think is the art of fiction: you use lies as your paintbrush to explore a human question). If you can't do that, choosing instead to be distracted by the anal question of the lie, you'll most likely wind up with a C at best on your script (and not much of an audience waiting to see it filmed).

In the words of Jean Giraoudoux:
"The secret to success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made."

WRITERS: TRUTH AND LIES

I was in a nice one star French restaurant last night, talking with some friends, everything very first world and civilized, when one of the lovely mademoiselles serving the meal reached across to set a dish in front of me. I came suddenly face to armpit with her entirely and powerfully unmanaged personal odor, which very nearly knocked me off my chair.

Weird thing is, in spite of all my social indoctrination in favor of showering once a day and maintaining armpits that smell like a brisk ocean breeze, I experienced an intense urge to grab a spear, whistle up the dogs and go kill a wild boar, thus proving myself worthy of mating with her. But hold on! I’m middle aged and happily married! I’d never cheat on my wife!

The truth is that as a species we are hopelessly self-aggrandizing idiots normally incapable of realizing even a dim working knowledge of what makes us tick. Without artists to slice through our self-excreted crust of face saving bullshit, we would crush ouselves to death under the weight of our own failure to see ourselves for what we are. If the truth that a writer delivers is an unflinching vision of our real selves, the collection of lies that he weaves forms the dagger that drives the revelation home.

truth in fiction
My favorite quote on the subject comes from Ken Kesey, by way of Chief Bromden: "...it's the truth even if it didn't happen." It seems to me that we don't need to look any further than ancient mythology to see that a story doesn't have to be factual to be true. It's no accident that those stories have endured for centuries. There will always be more truth in a well-wrought metaphor than in the most excruciatingly reliable account of the facts.

Steve J.

honesty in writing

Honesty, like truth, is crucial to good writing.

This does not necessarily have anything to do with facts, however. One must be deadly honest with one's lies -- in fiction, anyway. (I notice that almost no one seems to have responded to the question in terms of nonfiction or essay writing.)

My favorite discussion of the issue of fiction's lies in the service of truth is Chapter 13 of _The French Lieutenant's Woman_ by John Fowles. (But you really should not peek at it without having read the first 12 chapters, or you lose much of the impact.)

On Truth and Lies

There has been a merry debate about truth and lies in fiction since Aristotle first isolated the problem of imitation in art. Shakespeare, too, punned endlessly about feigning and lying in art.

My understanding: When I have acted on stage I have been able to say and feel things I could never have said without a mask. The "lie" allowed me to speak truths that we can't get to otherwise.

However, I also like the opposite paradox posed by Nietzsche. Everytime we speak a truth, we lie. When we say "I love you," for instance, we often say it to reassure our loved ones at moments when they feel unloved. We make verities to push back the darkness of uncertainty, and everytime we try to make a truth statement, we simultaneously assert the opposite.

So to sum up: when we tell the truth, we lie, and when we lie we tell the truth.

But I still love all you guys, honest.

Steve Dooner

I'm telling you this right now and I mentioned this before, but one must read Tim O'Brien's THE THINGS THEY CARRIED (the novel, not just the short story) to fully appreciate and go a long way to understanding the paradox of "honesty in writing". O'Brien says some of the things happened and some of the things didn't happen in this novel, but it's all true.

The truth isn't a blow by blow recitation of what happened, but that nugget that we all understand that may be apocryphal---but, sometimes is not---and that we KNOW is the right way or the correct way or, dare I say it, the MORAL way. One rarely finds TRUTH or honesty in a work of non-fiction because the author is giving you an interpretation of what happened through his or her eyes---with no understanding or comment because the author is trying to be objective---and those eyes see the colors differently, so to speak.

(I think film documentaries are much closer to books of fiction as far as understanding or truth. We say that the camera doesn't lie and, for the most part, it is true. The camera only looks at what it wants to look at and there are very few ways of lying to the camera---and no comments regarding special effects, you guys know what I'm driving at---and the camera, like the book of fiction, picks and chooses what it wants to show us.)

And speaking of film, I think a good fim of this type of paradox is the basic training scenes that make up the first half of FULL METAL JACKET. That stuff in basic training did not happen. It is a work of fiction. BUT, it's all true; every last single epithet, curse, insult, degradation, and humiliation is true and it made the book pale in comparison as to what it was trying to get across.

Ok. End of sermon and the Pretentious line forms behind me.

Harlan: Much appreciated, your quick and succinct reply regarding honesty in writing. As to the other replies, have you noticed you actually sidestepped what I asked? Some went from honesty to truth. Some suggested honesty, but by way of honesty not in writing but other things. And some suggested honesty as lies.

Think about all of it, folks. I will get to the point. Soon.

Until next time. . .

Jim Hess

Peggy: Jeez! I hope the chemo works out well. I hope they're feeding your cat well, and the @##$%^&&*! bureaucrats will get off their hands and let you go to Kutait, already! May your difficulties evaporate into nothingness.

And I think the second coming of Coleman was a spoof. I don't think it was him.

Maybe.

Chuck

Jon Stover writes "And I also like Yeats's lines -- 'I must go down to where all the ladders start/ In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart.'"

I bet that'll be in the textbooks in Michigan. The whole literary censorship issue reminds me of one recent book that detailed the whole bowdlerization of student literature. The gist that I got was that children were more or less turned off of reading altogether because all school material was rewritten or produced to eliminate any elements of drama/sadness/ethnicity/hardship/anger/fear/death/
superiority/inferiority/etc., and was consequently as dull as dishwater. Way to up the sales of Playstation.

Frank:
Man, I wish I was cool enough to get ripped off by HE.

Correction
"I must lie down where..." Yes, I looked it up after posting. Sorry.

Cheers, Jon

I believe Stephen King said (or wrote) "Fiction is the truth inside the lie" or something like that. David Gerrold had a nice metaphor for good fiction in a column that he did for Starlog back about a gazillion years ago -- that stories were like Cracker Jack boxes; they needed to include prizes along with the candied popcorn and peanuts if they were going to be worth consuming. And I also like Yeats's lines -- "I must go down to where all the ladders start/ In the foul rag-and-bone shop of the heart."

Oh, and good luck, Peg. There's something weird and sad about the cat being there waiting for you and yours -- I hope it gets resolved soon.

Take care, Jon

Brian,

You beat me to the punch which is a good thing because you express the paradox better than I could have.

Now that I'm in my second year of a screenwriting program, I find I struggle with this issue every day. I believe that "Cinema is truth 24 times a second" or at least the truth-telling aspect is what most interests me. Yet I can't get around the fact that it's also just a bunch of dirty, stinking, lies.

I have come to seriously question whether or not I want even to TRY to conitnue writing because I cannot get around the fact that "I'm just making shit up." Whenever I brainstorm ideas with someone else and they ask me questions, my kneejerk response is "How should I know? It's all made-up anyway!" I've started to think I would be better served exploring my options in the world of documentary filmmaking. I really can't get past the "lies" that are endemic to the writing process.

However, goodness knows I've read works of fiction and watched narrative films that feel powerfully and transcendentally TRUE to me. Films like 2001 or books like Crime and Punishment. My favorite of Harlan's stories have had a deep emotional impact on me precisely because they achieve moments of truth - I mean the ending of Jeffty, that's as "true" as anything I've ever read. I may lean heavily in the direction of non-fiction writing and docuemntary film but I would never make the asinine claim that fiction isn't worthwhile. Of course it is!

I have not, however, been able to resolve the paradox for myself. "This scene doesn't work - see if you can smoothe it out." "But that means I just have to make up MORE lies to make THESE lies seem less like lies!!!!!!!" I can't find an ethic that works for me just yet and I grow increasingly frustrated with the process.

I know it is possible to write "true fiction" but I look at everything I've written with disdain for the simple fact that none of it is true. The other students in the program seem to think I'm quite strange for feeling this. I complain about "making stuff up" and just get blank stares. And maybe that's the right reaction.

My interest in areas like sabermetrics (baseball statistical analysis), atheism and world religions, film history, etc. all involve the pursuit of truth. I want my writing to be the same, a pursuit of truth. Even if I am always a poor or mediocre writer, I would at least feel a sense of satisfaction if I know my writing was as "true" as it could be.

As it is, I feel like I'm just "making things up."

The Sincerest Form of Flattery
David J. Schow needs to get better press photos because the ones on his website are desperately nasty, that rash of florescent zits running from his right ear lobe to his chin in particular. Either that or a more potent brand of pore decongestant. Why is he still gasping along anyway? Shouldn't he have long since followed Skipp & Specter into direct to video obscurity? Meanwhile the National Book Award medal will look beautiful on Stephen King's masterpieces.

Harlan wrote:
"I answer your query, "How important is honesty in writing?" in true Socratic manner, thus: How important are lungs in breathing?"

This from a man who once described his profession as "Paid Liar."

It's a wonderful paradox, isn't it? When writers compose fiction, they are essentially creating _lies_ for us to believe, if only provisionally or for a short while. The story didn't happen. Or maybe it couldn't happen. Or maybe it did happen, but there's lots of stuff there that the writer couldn't know, but he or she made it up anyway. Or maybe the writer took a shred of fact, and built an edifice of lies so cunning and enticing that it seems even more true than true. And yet, one quality we demand from our writers is something called "honesty."

So what gives, guys? Do we want honesty? Or are we looking for something else, perhaps alongside of honesty?

Here's my guess. I think that we want from our writers is a combination of honesty with oneself, and conviction. I don't mind being lied to with fiction: but if I'm going to believe a lie, I'd feel a lot better if the liar believed in it too. Just this week, I let Stephen King tell me more about Roland the Gunslinger, and tomorrow I'll let Steve Lopez spin a tale of politics in Philadelphia that never happened. We all know that J.K. Rowling doesn't zoom about on a broomstick, that Ray Bradbury's never been to Mars (let alone one with a breathable atmosphere and Martians), and that Patrick O'Brian wasn't even _Patrick O'Brian_. But conviction exists in their work.

(I'd like to hear some examples of works where conviction just isn't there at all. My nominee'd be Madonna's _The English Roses_. It's not a story so much as a rich lady's lark for the sake of a new public image. It's hard to not see it as a sick, evil-universe version of Kay Thompson's _Eloise_ books. I pity any child moved by it-- and hate any parent who fobs it off on a kid.)

And within the realm of lies, there's a specific kind of honesty we want in a writer. If a writer has what Orwell called a "power of facing unpleasant facts," then that writer will not shy away from putting onto paper things that even he does not want to say-- but _must_ say. If a writer starts a story, and realizes that the only sensible resolution goes against his core beliefs and cherished values... honesty demands that he write _that_ ending, and not some comforting dodge to reassure himself or the reader.

So yeah, honesty's as important as a good set of lungs. But you gotta care about what you're doing, too.

Quoting Chaos Itself.
Christ on cracker, Harlan. As if Frank's head wasn't fat enough already... Now there'll be no living with him.

Quoting Chaos Itself.
Christ on cracker, Harlan. As if Frank's head wasn't fat enough already... Now there'll be no living with him.

Chaos Theory
Harlan-

My apologies for missing your request. My lovely bride's doctoral dissertation was on organizational change and her knowledge on said subject (as well as other topics) is immense. She could have easily provided you with the information you sought in an exchange of email or brief phone conversation.

Glad to know you're feeling better; best wishes.

REPLY TO JIM HESS

I answer your query, "How important is honesty in writing?" in true Socratic manner, thus:

How important are lungs in breathing?

Harlan

Oh, good. Harlan is up and about. The cosmos were getting quiet. Too quiet, if you ask me.

I GET A COPY OF V LIFE cos I'm a HERC member? Yes! What a day.

Anyway--what the hell did I track in on my shoes? Oh, just Coleman.

Seriously, here's a question for one and all: How important is honesty in writing?

Until next time. . .

Jim Hess

Nah, the other Hilton sisters. Paris and her sister who looks just like her. Nikki maybe. As far as I can tell they are famous for being tall, blonde, rich, and scantily attired.

Which Hiltons?
Daisy and Violet Hilton, the "Texas Siamese Twins?"

I just read SHOCKED AND AMAZED, which had the story of the Hiltons and many other carnival sideshow performers. I recommend it highly. Another favorite is the story of the three-legged man Frank Lentini.

I'm unconvinced Coleman is a real person...I suspect it's actually a computer program that spits out random phrases from literary journals.

HOLY SHIT!! Ok, Mr., "copyrights are god's little ingots" Ellisonia. Giggle.

Cannot wait to see it, oh great one.

Guess that makes me the Dalai Lama of Chaos. Bows to the assembled throng.

Lancing a boil can be ever so much fun. Without anesthesia is even better.

Thanks Harlan.

---------------

Why in God's holy name did TCM have to show The Greatest Story Ever Told at fucking 230am? And my dumb ass watched the whole thing. Every frame looks like a fucking painting from some museum in heaven. Not a big church goer, but that flick is the shit bomb dookie.

I feel the spirit. Amen.

But, fuck you TCM for showing that masterwork so damn late.

EVERYBODY ELSE:

The scapular muscle spasm has abated. I heal quickly. I did not become addicted to Vicodin, Icy Hot Patches, Advil, Cyclobenzaprine, or lying on my back, wonkier than a raccoon on Fruit Loops during extended bed rest. I'm back at work. How do you spell dawg? Got an advanced copy of the preliminary cover for the Modern Library book I edited containing Jacques Futrelle's "Thinking Machine" mystery stories. Tres nifty.

I've spoken to Ted Johnson at V LIFE magazine, at Variety in Hollywood. The magazine is only available via newsstand in NYC and LA. But he's gotten so many requests for copies -- some of which he sent out to HERC members and Webderlanders gratis -- a gesture of graciousness I told him to stop making -- that he's consulting with his distribution manager and the Editor-in-Chief, Tom Tapp, in an effort to set up some kind of an apparat by which any of you who want a copy can order it directly. More on this, if and when...

Frank Church: I quoted a random mot from one of your posts in my chaos theory piece, but I gave you no credit, pretended it was mine own wise saying, ripped you off with malice aforethought so I would look the cleverer, and I will meet you AND your attorney about noon near the Carmes-Deschaux; at 1:00 behind the Luxembourg; and at two o'clock at the hotel of Monsieur de Treville. Your choice: epee, foil, or saber.

Nofuckingblesse oblige, Church!

Le Duc d'Ellisaux

SAY GOODBYE, GRACIE

THIS ONE'S FOR COLEMAN:

Pardon the ad hominem attack, sir or madame, but as best I can ascertain from the two messages you've posted here that have caught my eye, you are an ignoramus of celestial proportions.
A canker on the rose. A roach in the baseboard of Life.

No one could figure out what you were gibbering about when you ran that "Gaiman attacks King" incantation, though I suspect you were lost in a fog and were confusing Harold Bloom with Neil Gaiman, which is on a level of acumen akin to confusing Joan of Arc with one of the Hilton Sisters. But now you limp back in, all drool and dementia, totally confusing the two Gary Wolf(e)s.

There are at least two Gary Wolf(e) entities tangential to the genre, you babbling, blathering boob. Tune in that one still-active parietal connection in your skull-phlegm:

There is the novelist Gary K. Wolf, author of (among others) WHO CENSORED ROGER RABBIT? (basis for the film), KILLERBOWL, THE RESURRECTIONIST, and A GENERATION REMOVED. A terrific guy, as nice a man as you'd ever want to meet; he lives in upstate California somewhere, and he has nothing to do with academia, critical writing, or book reviewing. As far as I know, and I've known him for 30 years.

And then there's the academic and critic, Gary K. Wolfe, who was President of Roosevelt University in Chicago; the man who co-wrote the recent non-fiction study of the writings of Harlan Ellison for Ohio State University Press; the man who reviews brilliantly for >Locus<; the man who is prominent in the academic sf organization, the SFRA; the man who is a friend of Harlan Ellison; and the man to whom Harlan Ellison is a friend.

Now that we have THAT straightened out, you clubbrained clod --
assuming you haven't further confused Gary K. Wolf and Gary K. Wolfe with Bernard Wolfe, Gene Wolfe, Thomas Wolfe, Geoffrey Wolfe or (anything is possible when dealing with a wart as dense as you) Virginia Woolf -- permit me, as summat the landlord here, to suggest you resume whatever simulacrum of a hominid you wear when you are not in the fleece-lined room, and lope on out of here, never to return.

Twice you've caught my eye, and twice you've demonstrated a meanspirited and contumelious nature. Twice is two times too many. Your continued intrusions here can only serve to damage the delicate nature of the sweet and smart regulars, lurkers, and occasional visitors who come to Webderland to be enriched, not befouled. You are a schmuck, and that other word that begins with an A......

Go away. Go away now. And never darken our door again.

Without a smile, Harlan Ellison

Peggy: at the point in your meditations when you have finished intoning "we're the Fugawi", then turn to "Eidolons" and read the bit which begins "did you ever have one of those days" and ends "Put away the pills. We'll get you through this bloody night. Next time it will be your turn to help us." Maybe not an exact quote, please excuse, I don't have the story in front of me. That one always grabbed me. I'm still trying to figure out why. Good reading when things aren't going so well.

And best luck to you, hoping some happy news comes your way soon.

Hang Tough Peggy!

Peggy,

I feel for you. It’s hard to keep stable when your surroundings are unfamiliar, and having both human and feline members of the family dead, ill or confined at a distance constitutes a truly enervating and depressing set of problems. It’s difficult to plant one’s feet and stand firm when you can’t seem to pause in your motion, or stop the ground from changing underneath you.

I am also a rolling stone, and have been since I was a three week old Navy brat. I am a road warrior, polished smooth and gashed deep across thirteen relocations and forty-two years, involving twenty-four separate domiciles, and more than five solid years of hotel rooms, YMCA’s, dormitories and other people’s couches.

From my experience, I think it might help for you to know, given your present situation, that you and your cat are, like myself, full-blooded members of the Fugawi Nation. Follow me on this:

We’re the Fugawi.

Were the Fug - a - wi.

Where the Fuck Are We?



This is our battle cry. You slur ‘where the’ into ‘weah thuh’, and ‘fuck are we’ into ‘fugAweee’.

When you are alone in your rental car, unsure even of which side of the road you should be driving on; when you are wandering a large foreign airport in search of luggage, but finding not even so much as a readable sign, or a working toilet; when you are lying sleepless on a sagging hotel matress, inhaling moldy dampness blown from a poorly maintained 1970’s coolerator that has apparently never had its filter changed; at these times, or at any time like them, you unleash the battle cry, screaming it out at the top of your lungs and from the bottom of your heart.

It makes you feel better.

I have to chime in on the flexeril comments. Y’all are scaring me. Just one of those tablets, which as I recall was about the size of the post nasal drip of a gnat, has been known to knock me on my ass for upwards of 14 hours, putting me into a virtual coma. I’m 6’1” and 200 lbs. If that’s “pretty weak,” spare me the strong shit.

Coleman, you forgot to use the terms "booboisie," "the great unwashed," "toeing the official line," and "bread and circuses."

I mean, if you're going to spout worn-out cliches, you might as well do'em all at once.

Let us prostrate ourselves before the collected works of Stephen King. Set fire to books by Carroll, Wolfe, Lafferty and Lieber or anyone else who has yet to sell millions of copies!

(Wait-a-minute...this is written too clearly...have let my cell originator down...give me a moment...ah-hah! The upper class smarmy mentality, awash in collected cultural goods, sucks on the teat of the affected masses, doped up in commercialized drug fumes!)

Coleman:
Juuuuust keep swimming folks... nothing to see here, keep it moving...

Oh, and HARLAN: Flexeril may not help much; as muscle relaxers go, it's pretty weak. Lia spent some time recently taking carisoprodol, also known as soma, which relaxes one to the point of bonelessness. It kinda prevents any achievement during the day, but at night it almost guarantees a deep, painless rest. Ask your doctor -- hope it gets better soon.

best to all,
M

Peggy, Mr. Ellison, and others I have missed:

Cripes, it's hard to find words that get my sympathy across for what you're going through, except to say that the troubles do pass, albeit it always passes too dammed slowly for anyone's liking. I hope your mother gets better soon, Peggy, and might I suggest threatening someone with that horror called a lawyer to get some movement on the paperwork? I'd hate the idea of that little feline continuing to sit all to its lonesome in a strange land.

As for Mr. Ellison, take your meds, and you're obviously not listening enough to your wife. We're supposed to be the persistent pain, remember?

Best, Mel

Rough Times
I can sympathize with your muscle spasms Harlan. I've had an occasional stress-related back spasm. The first time I had to drive myself to the emergency room at 2:00 AM while my back spasmed every 45-60 seconds, contorting my upper body each time. Not fun. I've used vicodin and/or flexeril and they both worked fine for me; I hope they relieve your pain.

I wish I knew how to begin on the rest of my post. I'm not usually one to lay out my troubles for public viewing. Lately, though, its just one thing after another. (I realize the other board may be better for this, but frankly I've not had the time to catch up on everything there) My husband and I have taken to singing our own Finding Nemo theme song, "just keep swimming", because that's all we can do when we get hit with yet one more issue.

On Sept. 11th I returned to Scotland to pack up house for our move to Kuwait. Five days before the movers were due, we were told there was a 2-3 week delay for permits. We rescheduled. On the day the movers showed, another 2-3 week delay. We moved out because our lease was going to be up, and have been on the road since then. Mark was sick in bed for the first week of our nomadic existence. Every few days or week that goes by, we make more arrangements.

On my birthday my mother emailed to tell me she'd been diagnosed with lung cancer, a 2 inch long tumor. Then her consultations and surgery were delayed due to the wildfires.

Later in October was brutally rebuffed by someone I considered a very close friend, in a manner which implied there was nothing but self-interest on their part all along. I still find it hard to reconcile their behavior to the person I thought I knew.

I flew to San Diego last week when Mom had surgery to remove part of her lung. The hospital wouldn't wait for me to arrive (only 1 day) before operating, which I found out only 3 hours before I left.

She just came home today. The original outlook was optimistic, but once inside they found it had spread more than thought; at least one lymph node was solid, and couldn't be removed due to proximity near blood vessels to and from the heart. They are still prescribing chemo and radiation but haven't said what stage it is. On Sunday I learned that the 5 year survival rate for lung cancer is only 15%.

On Monday, one of their cats, their pet for 12 years, was killed by a wild animal, probably a coyote driven out of its habitat by the fires.

We've been on living out of suitcases and on the move since mid-October. It's mid-November, and I've been told it's another 2-3 weeks still waiting on permits. Our cat is already kennelled in Kuwait, and we're still cooling our heels. I'm off to LA tomorrow to visit Mark's family, and then have to return to the UK Saturday night (I'm temporarily working from London). Mark will be staying with his family here, nop point in him being bored in the hotel while I work.

I'm just getting so tired of waiting for the next shoe to drop. I have to remind myself of the good things that have happened (a large raise), and of all the kind, understanding people who have helped along the way - especially with our plans constantly changing. But I'm really ready for it all to stop now.

Coleman,

What the hell are you talking about?

Dooner

I'm at a loss.

SK #1
Gary Wolfe what a bum. Isn't his sole literary claim to posterity that dorky Roger Rabbit novel? Well I see he has weaseled himself into a professorship at an underfunded community college dominated by Marxists. I'm sure he will happily exchange gibberish with the Jonathan Lethem's and Bradford Morrow's confined forever in their academic gilded cages with their small press monographs on the hermeneutical, transvestite, postmodern niceties of Don Delillo's alimentary canal.

"In life and art both, as it seems to me, we are always trying to catch in our net of successive moments something that is not successive. Something closer to a quality or a state"

C.S. Lewis

David, ah, I did mention that I knew who Colmes was, that's why I dissed him. And I already read the Franken book, and it was a hoot. His encounter at the White House correspondants Dinner was funny. Showed the true side of the right.

I remember, Hannity was saying that Franken was being real hateful that night, and cursing at people. According to Franken, he was just having fun with some of the Bush administration and Colmes.

Colmes, in his book says that Fox is fair to liberals, and that some liberals (Franken, Moore) show hate towards conservatives, when they should only disagree with their policies, not make it personal. But it is conservatives who make it personal, when they accuse the left of being anti-American or unpatriotic.

He says we shouldn't hate Bush. For that I say kiss it.

Actually, I don't hate Bush; he is too sappy and dopey to hate. I dislike him greatly, and hate his policies. But I do like his wife. Still don't get how a librarian could fall for that dolt.

-------------

Rob, welcome back, my rancorous sparring partner. Those jail house green bologna sandwitches must have been a bitch.

-----------------

Bern, Bern, come back to us. lol.

Oops


Harlan,
Already sent Juvies. Will send my address in the mail tomorrow.

Have fun & stay sane.

--tr

tONY:

A million thanks. If you haven't sent it off yet, please enclose a note with your address on it, so I can post it over my desk to remind me to send you the first copy of the hardcover dual-edition when it's published.

Again, many many thanks.

In your debt, Harlan

various

Frank: Al Franken gently but repeatedly chides Colmes in his current mega-seller, not only verbally, but by invariably printing his name in a tinier type than the rest of the text. Apparently, Colmes is a "token liberal" voice on a Fox TV talk show helmed by -- I think -- ultra-conservative and mendacious Sean Hannity. (Yeah, I'd never heard of Hannity either, before I picked up Franken's book.) On the show, Colmes takes all sorts of lying and abuse pretty much lying down, according to Franken.

I saw "Mystic River." It's a good movie, fairly solid on the strength of some excellent acting, but not that well written, in my estimation. A few lines and exchanges had me wincing.

"American Splendor" was fabulous, though. Granted, it's been playing in town for a month or two, but I had very mixed feelings about the fact that Carole and I were the only two people in the theater. On the one hand, it was refreshing not to have to worry about talking out loud -- either before or during the feature -- or about annoying people with my fulsome guffaws (my high school girlfriend once termed it "fat laughter"), but on the other hand . . . well, you know.

As for the proposed Michigan law raised by Alex Jay, this is another hysterical bit of societal and mind control based on myth, fear, and muddy "thinking" that never achieves clarity and therefore progress because of social shaming.

I wrote on the background issue in June, after the Supreme Court decision on library Internet filtering, in a piece the Oregonian was too chicken to print but quietly placed on its Web site:

http://www.oregonlive.com/public_commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1056974320287460.xml

No Galactic Pot Healer, Me

Tony:

You're lucky, mon ami. After piecing together what the wife had said out of half-remembered seeming dream and an early morning visit to the the site, I went down into my vault and looked. Two copies; complete, covers intact, but one a well worn library copy. You came within a few moments of me waking up to losing your chance. And, I'd have done it for laughs, Tony. FOR LAUGHS!!!!!!!!!! BWAAAAAHA-HAHAHAHAHA-HAHAHAHA(*Cough, cough*)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember, I'm still evil.

Alex:

Want to opine about the Michigan law, but travails await. I'll think about it, and either post at the other place or wait until tomorrow.

Toodles from the Resident Evil, (I'm much more fun than the game, and much better to look at than the crappy film)

Scott

Censorship again ...
Surprisingly, this story seems not to have hit the radar of the usual news outlets:

http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6560

Long story short, for those who don't feel like following the link:

Come January 1st, it will be against the law in Michigan for anyone to "disseminate, exhibit, or display" sexually explicit matter to a minor.

On the face of it, a dropkick--but get this:
"Sec. 3. As used in this act:
(a) “Sexually explicit matter” means sexually explicit visual material, sexually explicit verbal material, or sexually
explicit performance.
(b) “Sexually explicit performance” means a motion picture, exhibition, show, representation, or other presentation
that, in whole or in part, depicts nudity, sexual excitement, erotic fondling, sexual intercourse, or sadomasochistic abuse.
(c) “Sexually explicit verbal material” means a book, pamphlet, magazine, printed matter reproduced in any manner,
or sound recording that contains an explicit and detailed verbal description or narrative account of sexual excitement,
erotic fondling, sexual intercourse, or sadomasochistic abuse.
(d) “Sexually explicit visual material” means a picture, photograph, drawing, sculpture, motion picture film, or
similar visual representation that depicts nudity, sexual excitement, erotic fondling, sexual intercourse, or
sadomasochistic abuse, or a book, magazine, or pamphlet that contains such a visual representation. An undeveloped
photograph, mold, or similar visual material may be sexually explicit material notwithstanding that processing or other
acts may be required to make its sexually explicit content apparent."

Although the law makes allowances for things like "school programs permitted by law" and colleges and universities who give out the sort of material prohibited by this law "for a
legitimate medical, scientific, governmental, or judicial purpose." So if you learn art as part of your syllabus (assuming that that isn't later dumped from Michigan schools), or if you get a human sexuality textbook, you're fine.

But there are no provisions for self-education: If a sixteen-year-old looks up health-based websites, the owners of said websites are screwed.
There are no provisions for art: If said sixteen-year-old, a budding artist, wants to buy or even LOOK at art books on her or his own, the bookstore and its staff are lawbreakers. Likewise an art gallery or museum.
There are no provisions for literature: If said sixteen-year-old buys him- or herself books by James Joyce, or Philip Jose Farmer, or Stephen King ...
"Bad boys, bad boys; whatcha gonna do?"

But before, when these sort of laws were put up, there had to at least be a simple transaction; a sale or attempted sale. THIS peesashit law just says "display," so a lot of cases are going to go down because someone FEELS something is "sexually explicit." Lotsa billable hours and wasted taxpayer money coming up. And the Constitution again feels the tramp-tramp-tramp of booted feet.

This is absolutely fucking SICKENING.
What the hell ever happened to PARENTING? What the hell ever happened to looking at what your kids arereading, or seeing, or
doing? What the hell ever happened to personal responsibility?

What the hell ever happened to FREEDOM?!?

(A PDF file of the actual statute, an amendment to a twenty-five year-old law, is available at: http://tinyurl.com/uo19 )

Juvies
I know, 2 posts the same day, but in a good cause...

Melissa, thanks for the quick response.

Harlan,
Juvies goes out to your home address UPS tomorrow morning.

Bests to you both.

--tr

12:03 am, EST. I made it over the date line, so no penalty.

Tony and Mr. Ellison:

I'm a fan of the "bird in the hand" principle, so if Tony's copy of "The Juvies" is complete, please send it to Mr. Ellison post haste. I wasn't looking forward to any book hunt anyhow. Besides, I just checked Scotty's Ellison pavilion, and amongst the tomes are three signed copies of "Jokes Without Punchlines".

There Tony, now we'll know where four of them are.

Back to the wheel. I've five more sets of mugs to throw before I sleep. Personally, I'd rather go miles.

Melissa

Juvies
Harlan,

I've got a copy on the shelf. Front cover's missing, but unless I missed something flipping through it a few minutes ago, I believe all pages are present & accounted for. So if Scott & Melissa don't turn one up in their boxes, just let me know before you shell out $100 for a copy some place else.

And if you do need the copy, nifty though Jokes Without Punchlines would be, I'd actually rather snag a copy of that hardcover Juvies/Deadly Streets (if they provide you with enough copies). Your call--whatever's most convenient for you.

Holler if you need me to send it.

Bests,

Tony

Mr. Ellison:

I woke the husband, and asked him if there might be a second copy of "The Juvies" in his collection. Scotty was noncommittal, but pointed me to the boxes stacked with old paperbacks in our basement. They are all doubles and triples of books he's collected, keeping to trade. There's about twenty large boxes, so I'll be a few days going through them.

If time is of the essence:

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=225008136

This copy's available for $95. It seems a bit steep, but if another doesn't turn up, it could work out to be a good alternate plan. Think of the money as an investment to get the hardcover printed.

Good luck, Melissa

Just got out of the slammer. I'm still massaging my wrists from Rick's handcuffs. Just look at these marks. The man's a brute. You tell him the cuffs are too tight; that they're a pinchin' the noives like tiny bear traps; you implore him to loosen the things...just a bit. Y'know...y'try to find a spark of humanity in him SOMEWHERE. What does he do? Tightens 'em...makes you SWOLLOW the key...and dumps a bucket o' diarrhea on your head.

Then, again...I think there was a part of me that actually kinda LIKED it.

JOEL,

There was a time when I'd rub people's noses it, when they conceded their mistake in voting for Bush.

But it's reached a level I didn't think possible. I've been seeing military personnel taking direct verbal shots at Bush for news cameras. Not like just National Guard recruits or privates. We're talkin' higher staff here: Sargeants and Major Generals. I was - I confess - impressed, not because of my obvious bias but in the past, and certainly in other countries, this probably would have been considered blatant insubordination.

I especially remember a sargeant who went so far as to say Bush is as bad as the enemy we're fighting in Iraq. Some might say that's going too far; others might sense what he meant. Either way, it's the image of an active military officer saying it that really stuck with me. He's doing his job; but he's not letting it stop him from voicing his opinion.

Then there was a senior National Guard officer, who said the decision had "seriously jeopardized the trust our soldiers and airmen have in their senior leadership".

I think another way of describing it is low morale. One hell of an irony, considering the military was just about Bush's BIGGEST supporter in the election.

So - y'ain't alone, Joel.

...AND...we just lost the MASSIVELY talented ART CARNEY. The man won 7 Emmys, 5 being for Ed Norton. Y'know, he was the original on-stage Felix Unger (hard as it is for me to visualize). When they wanted to do the movie Carney's name wasn't considered big enough for the box office yet (particularly compared to Jack Lemmon) to bring him out from New York (additionally, I also understand he'd dropped out of the stage production because of alcohol problems). So, Matthau came out with most of the original cast sans Carney (Matthau saying he'd felt bad about it...but that it was the way the game was played).

A Good Point, Cindy, But . . .
Cindy,

I think you raise a very good point about fairness, and I would agree with you, were it not for the government-mandated media blackout on all funerary images and memorial services--'twas not like this in the days of Cronkite, for I distinctly remember the images from the Vietnam War that shocked and saddened a nation.

It's as though some Bill Tidy has appeared from Hollywood to rewrite the script of this war, and he has cut everything that would seem to "downbeat." We, poor weaklings that we are, could not understand a Periclean or Lincoln-like funeral oration that honors the sacrifices of the recent dead while the war is still on. No, we must molly-coddled and treated like a nation of infants.

Now, I grant that images of body bags do not boost morale, but why the moratorium on memorial services? Certainly, recognition from the government might have comforted these families at the time they needed it most. I cannot help but be disgusted at the evil "Madison Avenue" policy we have adopted for this war.

The story about the media ban has been widely reported enough, and it is well known that the administration needs to put a positive spin on their failing efforts. "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."

It is simply not good PR for them even to have a group memorial or a remembrance of the most recent sacrifices. Today, Veterans Day, they barely mentioned the 382. . . I'm sorry, 383. . . no, no, it's 384 service men who have died and are dying. All Bush said is that this most recent generation should be inspired by the "Greatest Generation" to die in even bigger numbers for Haliburton! He did say that. I swear I heard it! I admit I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that's pretty much what he said.

Journalistic time has also been horribly skewed. Imagine folks in 1945 sitting around talking about all the doughboys who died in 1919, while ignoring Iwo Jima. Imagine if Edward R. Morrow decided to report the Battle in the Ardennes Forest while on a London Rooftop in 1939.

I am not writing these words to be adversarial. I have enormous respect and admiration for you, Cindy. I am only writing these words because I am ashamed of my country, my President and this illegal war. My mood today has grown blacker and blacker as the day has worn on. They look like Jackals to me. That's all I can say.

Steve Dooner

S.O.S. FROM HARLAN

I urgently need a copy of THE JUVIES. I don't want a copy in mint or even good condition. A publisher in the U.K. wants to do a combined hardcover containing THE DEADLY STREETS and THE JUVIES. Neither has ever been in hardcover. We have a pb copy of THE DEADLY STREETS, but no copy of THE JUVIES, which has never been reprinted in ANY form since its initial release as an Ace pb in 1961. So if anyone out there has a battered, water-stained, brown and silverfish-gnawed second-copy, or a reading copy, or a bookshop-remaindered copy you've saved for trading ... well, I'll offer as fair exchange payment, a copy of my RAREST book, the ugly little chapbook JOKES WITHOUT PUNCHLINES, a tiny book of uncommon awfulness due to idiot printing and formatting by White Wolf, who did up less than a thousand copies for my appearance/signing at the 1995 American Booksellers Convention in Chicago. Less than a thousand that were snatched up in one day by attendees. It's hideous, but ultra-rare.

JOKES WITHOUT PUNCHLINES goes for a pretty penny on e.bay, and I will trade a personalized mint condition copy to the first person who can supply me with a copy of THE JUVIES. I don't care what it looks like, but ALL THE PAGES MUST BE THERE, even if loose. The copy will be used by the printer, and they'll tear it apart, so DON'T offer me your good library edition. I want a crap quality book, and will send you this expensive, rare, though hideous, collectors' item in exchange. And you'll be instrumental in getting these two early collections back into print.

Waiting to hear from you, i remain, as always, Harlan.

Sorry Frank....
I think any type of extremism is bad for the country, be it from left or from right. That's all I have to say about it. Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are BOTH big fat idiots who have problems with telling the truth. I'll never fully trust either side, and I would advise anyone with an ability to think independently to harvest the same skepticism.

I realize I've broken a rule here, so I will not post again until Thursday...

Joel, it would have been very easy to just check the Social Security Administration website, and it would tell you that the trust funds are solvent for 40 years, and the "low cost" ones are solvent for 75 years. I have also heard Ed Herman and Chomsky say the same thing.

Never trust a conservative on Social Security data or any other data.

----------

Coleman is just a spy who wants to rock the boat. We should all just moon him/her/it? and kindly tell the person to kiss our asses.

Not Cindy's though. Don't want Coleman receiving any enjoyment.

-----------

Like the latest Steve King installment in Entertainment Weekly, but I think he may be overrating Mystic River a bit. Sure, it is a great film, but the best in 30 years? Not quite. It may be the best film this year; so let's keep it at that for now Stevie.

Hoping he liked Kill Bill.

------------

Bush didn't have to go to all the funerals, but he could have had a national day of mourning or something. He should also send personal letters to all the families. He owes them that much. And he owes us all by stepping down from the throne and going straight to prison.

------------

Someone needs to be our Variety pimp. He, he.

***Thanks for the response Justin. What is wrong with this great state of ours??
***Cindy--I prob missed it if you spoke of it here, but who won the contest? Is it over? I will log on over there to check. Thought I'd ask you though.

a confession...
I voted for Bush in 2000. Al Gore left me cold and seemed to take me for granted as a voter, my state had few others on the ballot, and my state always went Republican anyway [this was before the move to California, obviously] I voted for Bush because I thought he might do something so that my generation would get a share of Social Security, or at least be able to invest some of that 6 percent ourselves. Obviously, that didn't happen, and isn't going to happen, and doesn't seem all that important now. All of the events of the last couple of years, hell, the last six months, have made me realize I made a mistake, though I don't feel too bad since Bush handily won my state anyway. So I'm not voting for him again, though I may or may not vote Democratic depending on who gets the nomination. It just seems like each day there's some new horrible event, and even though I think a lot of these things would have happened even with Gore in the White House [though probably not the ones in Iraq], I can't help but think they would be responded to with more diligence.

And yes, it is disgusting that this president, who campaigned so strongly about restoring the military, has treated them in the way that he has.

No clue what Coleman was on about...indeed, I surely hate when folk communicate in such an affected style.

Cindy's point about Bush and funerals is, actually, very good. It'd be one thing if a slew of body bags came back, as they did from Vietnam: then, the President could officiate at a ceremony without playing favorites. And the political considerations Cindy raised are not without a basis in fact.

Personally, I don't think Bush regards the deceased as anything other than people who should be working to protect People Who Matter.

But this reminds me of one of the ghastliest, most wrenching things I've ever seen-- and Harlan, if you're reading this, maybe you've seen this particular film clip. It was part of a history series in the late 1970s where they chroma-keyed the host into news footage of the time: I recall Dick Cavett and Cliff Robertson hosting definite segments, and it may have been titled "Time Capule" or something like that.

The segment was on the the Sixties, and the film showed then-President Nixon paying a visit to the mother of a soldier who'd been killed in Vietnam. Imagine this, gang. The cameras are following Nixon as he gets out of his limosine. He strides across a suburban street to a house where a middle-aged women is trembling, both with awe of The President and with barely-contained grief over the loss of her baby boy. Nixon walks up to her, and offers some _clearly scripted_ words of condolence, uttered in that horrible, stumbling "statesman" voice of his. The woman breaks. Suddenly, grief and pain spill out of her in a torrent, and she breaks down in horrible, wracking sobs.

That's not the worst part. The worst part came with Nixon reached into his label pocket, and took out a pen. He presents the pen to her, explaining that it was an _actual pen_ used by _the President_ to actually _sign a bill_. I don't remember anything else Nixon said, but the phrase "in grateful recognition" was probably in there, somewhere. The woman takes it-- probably the only thing she could do, what with her body laboring to draw breath in between the sobs-- and continues to wail as the President of the United States retreats to his limousine.

New and Old Business

Lee:

Should M. Ellison not have any copies for sale, use the advance search option at abebooks.com to see if any UK or European mainland dealers have any copies. Could save you some time in transit and postal cost.

Me, I don't Ebay. I prefer what I'm buying to have a price set firm, rather than have my purchase subject to the whims of a hyperactive fool with an itchy mouse (not a scratchy cat) finger.

Mark: Regarding your Molson's Ex vs. Rush question a couple of weeks ago...I like Rush just fine, but think they're another of the bands of the Sixties, Seventies and Eighties who are just hanging on rather than contributing to music. Truth to tell, I feel the best work Neil Peart has done lately is "Burning for Buddy", his and a number of other drummers tribute to Bernard "Buddy" Rich.

I think "Moving Pictures" to be their best, more for "YYZ", and "The Camera Eye" (interesting to listen to lyrics considering the nature of Canada's Two Solitudes), than the often played chestnuts "Tom Sawyer", and "Red Barchetta". I also have a strong respect for "Grace Under Pressure", really liking the song and video for "The Body Electric".

One other thought. I recall listening to "2112" a few months ago, and the thought had struck me about the possibilites that could've ensued in Pete Townshend and Neil Peart (Rush's lyricist) sharing notes on the similar themes and ideals rising from Rush's theme album and "Who's Next", the progeny of Townshend's failed "Lifehouse" project. Intriguing to think of the fusion of Pete's mystical interests to Peart's insight and pragmatism.

With that, I go now to confound the virulent strains of Toby Keith idiocy with "The Gilded Palace of Sin". I love it when the the music I play at work starts to pop the heads of those who listen like kernels of corn. It's delicious fun.

Yeppers, I'm evil. So sue me.

Scott

Steve Dooner,

His presence at the funeral of one soldier and not those of ALL soldiers would only serve to inflict more pain on those who suffer. To insult more families than he could comfort would be unfeeling and counterproductive. How would you choose which funerals to attend? Would the funerals of black soldiers be ranked as more important than those of white soldiers? Would you attend the funerals of young soldiers more frequently than those of old soldiers? Or would it be the other way around?You'd have to be Solomon to pick your way along that treacherous path and bitterness and anger would be the most prominent features of the landscape.

"A FRONTE PRAECIPITIUM A TERGO LUPI"

There is no lack of inclination to attend these funerals on the part of President Bush. The necessity of absolute fairness demands his absence now, when the numbers of the dead and the responsibilities of the office are so conflicting.

You are right about Haliburton though.

Cindy

Paraphrasing Coleman:
"Considering the many masterpieces Stephen King has written, Neil Gaiman's choices are curiously fore-shortened to describe how the avaricious blubbering of parochial Yalies running short of years to achieve recognition gravely errs. Big bats down to one five five. Hieroglyphics underscore upstairs couch, revising into corrugated steel rings. Sounds like status grasping priggery masquerading as condescension to me. Procedures follow proscribed canal-like objects of fear and desire. Jonathan Carroll's motif. Like plaster, but with horns."

I have no idea what Coleman is driving at, but he is speaking in punctilious academese that sends me right back to my grad school days and gives me a bad case of the heebie-jeebies.

HARLAN: In a few months I’m going to have a brand new office on the second floor of my house and I’ve been mulling over ways in which to set it up. Through various dust-jacket photos and videos, I’ve caught glimpses of your office and have been impressed with the design. Do you have any tips on how to arrange the office for maximum efficiency?

FRANK: I disagree slightly on the end of “Mystic River.” I thought the look that Laura Linney gave Marcia Gay Harden was chilling and real: it’s a look I’ve seen too many times in the eyes of rough-and-tumble Irish women hell-bent on defending their men.

Also, let me back up my pal Dooner by saying that the “Voice from the Edge” anthology is exemplary. Steve played me “The Function of Dream Sleep” and I was riveted. Holy Toledo, Harlan! What radio shows you and Orson Welles would have made!

Best,
Mark

Sorry, Harlan; I can't cut through the fog of Coleman's style to see what he meant.

I think it may have included a swipe at Jonathan Carroll, which is also offensive. But if people couldn't score points off their betters, what use would the internet have?

Lee asked,
"...is there a difference between Scott’s suggestion to ‘ask Harlan Ellison if he has any editions available from his private stock’ and querying directly the HERC store inventory that is listed on this web site?"

No, there's no difference. That be the place to get 'em, if HE's got 'em. (Now what HE's got under the bed is another matter, but I believe those offers would be few and far between. Susan Ellison will more than likely alert this site if there's additions---editions?---not listed in HERC.)

And abebooks.com is indeed a good place to find out of print or other tomes of interest. I've received books through there before and it's so simple and easy that I think even Coleman could handle it.

Ellison's 'Private Stock' of Books

I have no idea who Coleman is, being relatively new here myself, but his last post evokes the sad images of a broken down 1950’s beat poet that’s taken a few too many hits from his water bong. I hope that's what he was going for.

If not, anyone who’s dealt with two year olds throwing tantrums for attention could tell you that the best therapy is to leave them babbling to themselves in the corner until they find their thumbs and fall asleep.

I deeply appreciate the several excellent suggestions for replacing out of print Ellison works. Though I feel like an idiot for having to ask, is there a difference between Scott’s suggestion to ‘ask Harlan Ellison if he has any editions available from his private stock’ and querying directly the HERC store inventory that is listed on this web site?

I can’t stop salivating over the thought of getting the 1990 signed leather edition onto my bookshelf. This edition is not listed on HERC, and though I’d like to thank PAB for the kind ebay offer I will probably go through www.abebooks.com to get it. But it would certainly be more sensible to send money direct to the author as opposed to a used book store that won’t forward any profit to the author.

COLEMAN

Does ANYONE here have the faintest idea what Coleman is talking about, because he sure as shit ain't talking about Neil Gaiman as badmouther of Stephen King???????

Harlan

Excuse me, Coleman, but are you perhaps mistaking Neil Gaiman for someone else? I have never heard him make a negative comment about King, and Mr. King has even written an introduction for a SANDMAN collection. And your characterization of Neil's comics suggests you've never read them.

SK #1
Considering the many masterpieces Stephen King has written, Neil Gaiman's choices are curiously fore-shortened to describe how the avaricious blubbering of parochial Yalies running short of years to achieve recognition gravely errs. Sounds like status grasping priggery masquerading as condescension to me.
Jonathan Carroll's motif.
I was not aware that penning dialogue balloons for gauzy, soft focus anemic "superheroes" in mascara gave one credibility to criticize the O. Henry award or National Book Award.

P.S.
Michael Moore is a fat, stupid, white man.

Harlan Audio and Outer Linits Thoughts

What a wise investment it was to purchase the two "Voice From The Edge" audio anthologies. I had real electric joy listening to Harlan's performances of "Laugh Track" and "Repent! Harlequin." I also heard a hint of melancholy in his reading of "A Boy and His Dog" that really awakened nuances of the story for me. "Grail" is a masterpiece. It should sit alongside Coleridge's "Kubla Khan" (with its haunted demon lover) and John Keats' "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" (With its pale knight forever pining for lost love). No one else could have written this story; it will stay with me always.

---------------------

MARK WALSH: I loved what you wrote about that dope writing for The Boston Globe and his insipid review of the Outer Limits collection. Just the other day I met a brother of a friend of mine who, out of the blue, volunteered that "Demon With A Glass Hand" and "Soldier" were the best episodes of The Outer Limits series. When I questioned him, he did not know who Harlan was, nor did he realize that HE had written both episodes. He simply thought those were most memorable stories from the series, and he had innocently chosen them as his favorites. He didn't even know the titles--just that Robert Culp with a glass hand was in one and that Michael Ansara and Lloyd Nolan were in the other. This is Harlan's greatness as a storyteller coming through.

------------------------------

Lastly, here it is Veterans Day, and we have President who won't attend the funerals of our soldiers. I don't know about you guys, but I'm feeling mighty ashamed. Imagine treating our soldiers the way he has have over the past year and then preaching about patriotism. Oh, they must be cleaning out a special corner of Hell for the Haliburton and Bechtel executives presently occupying the White House.

With an ironic "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori,"

Steve Dooner

Lee: There are numerous copies of Deathbird Stories on eBay right now, including a book clud edition hardcover with dust jacket and a first edition hardcover library discard, both for under $10, both from reputable sellers in VG or better condition with cheap shipping. Both auctions end in less than two days.

http://tinyurl.com/ugyp

If you don't do eBay, let me know ASAP and I'll do my best to get it for you and you can pay me back: virulentstrain at yahoo dot com

PAB

Deb- I couldn't find a copy anywhere in wee little Tucson. The website for Daily Variety offers monthly or yearly subscriptions, but I saw no way to order individual issues.

Lee,

Quick check of the HERC store page doesn't show DEATHBIRD STORIES, unless I'm blind & missed it, but it does show DREAMS WITH SHARP TEETH. DWST includes DEATHBIRD STORIES, along with SHATTERDAY, & I HAVE NO MOUTH & I MUST SCREAM, all for a mere $20. Worth every dime & then some, and from a 100% reliable source.

--tr

***Apparently Az doesn't know what Variety is , coz we have searched high and low and can't get our hands on a copy. Justin--did you find a copy??
***Simon and Garfunkel together again. Man was it ever fantastic!! I usually like my music less mellow, but this was a great remembrance of days gone by. Whenever I see Paul Simon I wonder if Harlan likes him. I have no idea WHY I have this thought, but I do. Every time. Concert was great. Another reason life is worth living. If only you could BELIEVE Paul and Art are really still friends....

Mark, hell nawww, I skimmed the Colmes book at Barnes And Nubile. He just rips off other books. What a softsoap. You other liberals can have him.

------------

The new Bernard Goldberg book, Arrogance should be used for mulch. Just a bunch of whining about how the liberal media is unfair to Conseratives. Fish faced little bitch.

------------

That parade scene at the end of Mystic River just gets me. All done in faraway looks.

Clint Eastwood has redeemed himself. Except for the goofy ending.

Hey Barney,

Don't feel bad!

I have a great deal of animosity toward the President of Mexico. The other day I referred to him as Vivica Fox. My friend Becky was wondering what an actress had to do with the importation of tuberculin cattle from Mexico.

;)
yer pal,
Cindy

My last doc gave me some stuff called Skelaxin that seemed to work pretty well, or at least, it improved the range of motion in my neck. But maybe I just like the tagline on the box..."For the many profiles in pain."

I think the most Phillp K. Dickian thing I've ever seen was on an episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beav is on a kids' TV show, tells all his friends to watch it, but steps out of the room for a drink of water when the host tells the kids the show is being taped for later broadcast. So when he gets home his friends call him a liar and he has no idea what has happened or why he wasn't on television like he thought he was. Then they play it the next day and he gets even more confused.

Lee:

Hunting Ellison volumes has caused me some difficulty with the patron author in the past, so permit me to advise that you ask Harlan Ellison if he has any editions available from his private stock. I've been assured HE offers tomes at reasonable prices and ships promptly, all done with flourish and good oral hygene.

If HE somehow fails in his omnipotence:

www.abebooks.com

There's a sizeable number of all editions, some reasonably priced. I've found many of the dealers to be first rate in shipping itmes quickly. And, the advanced search will allow targeting for dealers close to you (check the UK if you want proximity).

Myself, I'm wondering whatever became of the Olmstead Press edition (ISBN 1587541017), with the marvelous Harlequin/Ticktockman graphic on the cover. Was it ever released, or did it go the way of its subject matter and related acts of extinctions; old gods, the dinosaurs, and the Edgeworks series...

Mrreee, Mrreee...

Scott, feeling a bit of Everett C. Marm this day.

Muscle spasms and their treatment.
I've dealt with back spasms with an annoying increase in frequency for the past few years. Here's my anecdotal wisdom.

Vicodin, Percocet, and other narcotics do a good job of making the constant throbbing pain fade away, and their soporific effect is welcome at bedtime. But for the sharp pain of spasms, they're useless unless taken in mind-numbing doses, so I try to stay away from them.

NSAIDs - ibuprofen, Bextra, etc - don't do anything except make my ulcer worse. Tramadol and other non-narcotic painkillers don't do much, either.

I'm very nearly convinced Flexeril is a placebo. It hasn't worked for me, or for anyone else I've known to take it. Soma, on the other hand, works fairly well for reducing the spasms, but it's nearly as addictive as the opioid painkillers. I'm willing to risk taking the Soma because it actually works, but I keep a wary eye on my use of it.

After years of pulling my back every few months and just gettting scripts from clinic physicians, I finally listened to my wife and visited an orthopaedist. He sent me to a physical therapist, who was able to stop a particularly painful spasmodic episode in about half an hour through the application of ice and mild electric shocks. That was merely treatment of the symptoms - we're still working on therapy to strengthen the surrounding muscles and loosen a trio of stuck vertebrae - but I'm still very pleased to have found a treatment for the spasms that's quick, effective, and drug-free.

Deathbird Stories

For a solid month now, each of my five kids (6, 4, 3, 2, 0 years old) has taken a turn being sick with fever and upset stomach. It’s been a nasty lingering six day flu and all but the baby have caught it in perfect series – including Linda and myself. We haven’t gotten enough rest since I don’t know when and are grimly holding the line against total flame-out as we wait with crossed fingers for the last kid to get better.

This in itself ain’t nothing but parenting, and is unworthy of comment, except that I wanted to explain in advance why I fell asleep in the bathtub while reading ‘Deathbird Stories’. Merde. The book has been salvaged after a fashion, but it’s no longer particularly readable. So I logged onto Amazon to order a new copy.

Am I still hallucinating with fever in my bathtub, or is ‘Deathbird Stories’ actually out of print?

If ‘Deathbird Stories’ is out of print, can somebody tell me what ring of Dante’s nine levels of HELL I’m living on? Searching against ‘Harlan Ellison’ returns 2363 separate items for sale through Amazon, so I assume Harlan on the whole is doing just fine. But why would a collection like ‘Deathbird Stories’ ever go out of print?

I’m healing the loss of my ‘83 Bluejay edition with the acquisition of a 1990 signed copy bound in leather. So in my happy little world supply is meeting demand and my bookshelf is in better shape than ever.

It’s the society I’m living in that’s giving me the creeps.

Oh, and Barney, there's no reason why you should remember this, but I did cite Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder" when I'd replied to Harlan's request for chaos-theory explanations a few weeks ago.

Ouch. Yeah. Busted. My team of fact checkers still hasn't come in yet. And the coffee was weak, and, and...

- Barney

totallybusted, PA.

BARNEY:

You don't mean "A Gun for Dinosaur" which was a story by L. Sprague de Camp; you mean Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder."

-he

Dickian revisionism
I like PKD as well as the next guy but there is something in Brian's post that I would like to take MILD exception to. While the notion that Hollywood is finally catching up to SF's coin of the realm of 30-40 years ago is quite true, the notion that these cool ideas are exclusively, or even mostly Dickian is to give him far too much credit.

Just to use THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT trailer as an example, here is a story that is referencing Bradbury's A GUN FOR DINOSAUR in terms of "small cause yielding eventual large and random effect" far more than it's referencing the Dick canonical works. It's also a better story than STUFFING to illustrate Chaos theory but I see where Harlan was going with that and STUFFING would also "pull the plow".

Where was I? Ah, yes. While Dick had the market cornered on a certain kind of existential angst and free-floating paranoia, ie. "it looks like crabgrass, but what is it really?" - giving him credit for every cool SF'nal idea to come down the pike is just too easy. Plus it gives short shrift to everybody working in that beanfield from 1945-53 and the whole posse of writers like Sheckley, Sladek and (your favorite here) who have done just as much, or more.

And Brian, really, I agree with 95% of your post. I'm just trying to spread the credit around a bit.

- Barney

Harlan, hope your neck gets better real soon.

As for _The Butterfly Effect_, here's the website: http://www.butterflyeffectmovie.com/. Nothing up there but few images and the trailer, which looks sort of interesting. Basically, Kutcher plays someone who, due to a semi-latent psychic ability, can change events in the past. He starts by preventing his girlfriend from being killed... but unforeseen consequences arise. The movie looks as though it could be decent.

But it is odd to live in a world where so _many_ commercial movie plots have such a strong Phil Dick influence; I remember when he was considered a weird writer who worked with mind-stretching ideas. And now the culture's caught up to him.

I've had some success with furniture restoration this week. When I moved into my house, I found several pieces of fairly nice-looking furniture which had, sadly, been covered with ugly green paint. I was going to throw out a bureau, but on whim, I put some paint stripper on the top... and found a fairly nice cherry veneer underneath. I cleaned the rest of it up, and this afternoon, I finally got around to laying down some nice reddish stain on the thing (Minwax's Sedona Red, if yer interested). Result; Nice, rich cherry appearance. which will look fantabulous once I lay on a covering of polyurethane. Once I get the drawers' interiors cleaned, it'll be used as a buffet in my dining room. I might actually be turning into a _journeyman_. After that, it's _Craftsman_. Dunno if I'll ever be an _Artist_, but _Craftsman_ is more than respectable.

In the meantime, my next project: buying a business, so I can have a better income and less of a boss above me. Yes, it means being a Capitalist, but I think I can live with that.

Well, my VLife is being sent by a good (although not quite old in years) friend in long standing who professes to inhabit the fictional environs of Ell Eh, who is repaying a favour by sending me five pristine copies by FedEx. I'm now happily tracking their slightly less than Homeric journey across your fabled land, then on into mine.

That, and I am now a fully certified glider pilot. Soloed today for the first time.

Life is good, be it V or real. And remember, it's not what you know, but who.

Scott

I'm glad you're feeling better. I've had similar deep tissue injuries to my back/neck, though never outta the blue. Usually they were a consequence of me doing something remarkably foolhardy and getting very badly hurt, but man oh man. Ow! After healing fully, I've usually found it helpful to find a good stretching and exercise routine that will help strengthen the injured muscles.

Steve Dooner's comment, "David Denby had some funny remarks about The Matrix's painful dialog this week" reminds me of the five minutes I spent last Wednesday laughing out loud then calmly relaxing into chuckles n' giggles.

I watch The West Wing. I loved season one of The West Wing. I thought season two of The West Wing was brilliant. I found season three and season four to be well-written piffle. But, egad, now that the show is struggling without it's creator/writer Sorkin, it's fallen into embarrasment.

So, I'm watching the latest episode where Josh is being beaten down by friends and enemies for dropping the ball on some such shit (doesn't matter what, just that I'm finding it hard to believe that Josh is on the verge of being villified and fired for blowing a negotiation......as if this hasn't happened to every single character on the show at one time or another). So Josh is wallowing in his misery and he's in a cab on the way from dinner and he dramatically asks the cabbie to pull over....he climbs out....(does he shake his fist? I don't remember, but he may as well have) and shouts into the night air "You want a piece of me!?!?! You want a piece of me?!?!?! I'm right here!!!!!!". The camera turns to what he is shouting at.....the U.S. Capital Building.

Pan to Todd spitting his Diet Dr. Pepper all over his comfy teevee viewing recliner. I'm sure Aaron Sorkin was doing more than spitting out his mushroom and shooting his coke (not the diet or sugary sweet coke) out his nostrils....he probably let out a bit of a tear as well to see the show he was beginning to bring down all by himself fall into a heap of splintered, rotting wood.

Bad writing and melodrama can kill the best of intentions.

-TODD

PS, Matrix: Revolutions is miles better than Matrix: Reloaded. Maybe it's because my expectations were lowered below Hades from the rancid second chapter, maybe it's because I was just enjoying the visual ride without caring for the silly Jesus plotline, but I enjoyed it. Still, the original The Matrix stands alone as on of the better science fiction films to be released by Hollywood.....the cliches will always be there, it's how they are presented that matter.

The spouse and I are off to see Simon and Garfunkel at the America West Arena. Back to the '60s, wahooooooo.

-TODD

So here's a thought: Since KICK is still in need of financial aid and since I would love to get my grubby paws on a copy of V Life, just because Harlan Ellison's writing appears in it, what would be the possibility of SOMEONE (Susan? Are you there?) getting hands on, oh, a couple dozen copies of the issue of V Life that contains HE's effort and, um, how to put this: Let people buy them with the understanding profits from said sales go to KICK?

Either that or I grovel and howl and kisskisskisskiss until I get me very own copy.

My two cents.

Until next time. . .

Jim Hess

ENOUGH Hollywood bashing already. It's too damn easy, and so commonplace on 'net forums it's become downright banal.

I've licked all of my wounds from MATRIX: REVOLUTIONS. I'm putting it behind me, and moving on to greener pastures.

Coupla interesting things in today’s Boston Sunday Globe. The first is a review of the just released DVD “The Outer Limits: The Original Series, Volume 2” (1964-65) that pumped me up and pissed me off simultaneously. I’m pumped up that I can now have digitally remastered versions of “Demon with a Glass Hand” and “Soldier” in my Harlan Ellison collection and pissed off about the lackadaisical treatment of HE. The review is couched in a larger theme centering on time travel and killing machines, done to serve the release of Terminator 3. The reviewer links The Outer Limits review to the Terminator through Harlan and the legal action HE threatened “over what he saw as the clear similarities between ‘The Terminator’ and some of his work – which is why video and DVD copies of the movie acknowledge him in the credits” This statement, of course, overlooks the fact that it was Cameron’s incessant mouthing off about stealing from Harlan that brought the action about in the first place. Also, the reviewer, Tom Russo, reveals his snobby core when he tags HE with the reductive “science-fiction writer.” God damn! Were Harlan South American, he would be considered something akin to a demigod or (even better!) a nondenominational WRITER, which is what HE is. Like beady-eyed Creationists, these reviewers preserver and must have their stupidity challenged every time. I sent an email to Russo addressing these (and other) misgivings, with the salutation “Dear Butt Steak,”…I may not get a reply…

The other interesting piece is a brief interview with Michael Moorcock that concerns the release of “The Lives and Times of Jerry Cornelius.” Best lines: “[B]lack farce is no defense against authoritarianism. Ezra Pound, the greatest, funniest, most influential poet of our age, was a fascist. Black humor is dangerous, fascinating territory – I guess someone has to go there.”

FRANK: Please please please please please tell me that you did not shell out some of your hard-earned money for Colmes’s weak-bladder tome.

FRIENDS: If you have not seen “Mystic River” please do: it is a deeply satisfying film. Our pal Stephen King lauds the picture in this week’s Entertainment Weekly, calling one of the top five films he’s seen in the last 30 years.

Walshy

PROGNOSIS & POSTNOTES:

After five days, I'm still hurting, but not as much. Took a very hot shower, then an ice-cold one, and I'm able to sit here for a minim to update and answer. (Incidentally, yeah, I know that Vicodin was Limbaugh's drug of choice, and apparently is very easily overdone to the point of addiction. I had 10 pills, and I used 'em; and now I'm out; but I ain't renewing the Rx.)

Before I forget--and I won't even use as a lame excuse the awful blinding pain that had me all woozy when I typed it--the word excruciating" does not have two "t"s in it. Esscuze me pliz.

Lee: I can't remember if I thanked you for that wonderful Piaf CD, but on the off-chance I was dilatory in doing so, herewith my genuine and ongoing thankee for a gift that has put a touch of the sun into my otherwise bleak existence this last week.

As for sending letters to V LIFE suggesting they hire Ellison again, the two guys you want to hit are Tom Tapp and Ted Johnson
but I urge you to be short brief elegant and circumspect. It would be not so hot if they thought I was putting you up to it.

And again, you can only get V LIFE from Variety. Or from someone who subscribes to Variety.

TIM & BARNEY: I got copies for both of you. They'll be in a package of stuff going to Tim next week. Also some new books.

All best from me and Susan,

Yr. pal, Harlan

Jeez M Crow, Frank, don't you ever talk about anything other than the next Hollywood snoozers coming down the pike? There's a whole world of movies out there! :)

I'm not holding my breath on Paycheck - Woo's American films, aside from the mildly entertaining Face/Off, have been terribly disappointing and further evidence of how the Hollywood production system crushes all signs of life and originality from its final product. The credits for the screenwriter also indicate that he is working on an upcoming remake of... THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE. Good grief, can't they leave anything alone?

Fuck the Matrix - go see the Station Agent ot Elephant instead.

arrrrgh!
Harlan, you have my sympathy and best wishes--that kind of pain may not be life threatening, but it sure as hell can make a person wish he were dead....

I sit here, patiently waiting for a friend to get tickets to The Producers so my wife and I have an excuse to go to NY (she's never been) and see the show with friends, and now, seeing the comments below, must place hand on sword, ready to defend MISSISSIPPI BURNING and the final installment of the MATRIX. They ain't THE APARTMENT, but they're not WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S 2, knee-ther.

And Harlan, get thee to a masseuse. And actually, that goes for everyone. If you can swing it, once a month. And if you can't, get drunk in a biker bar, call the guy with the ZZ Top beard 'the bearded lady', and then let the bikers pummel you about the neck and shoulders.

Harlan, Vicodin? Now you finally have something in common with Rush. Hoo, hoo. Be well our wild man of letters.

------------

On the movie front:

Read about Kill Bill 2--it should be more complex and have more of a story, and it promised to be even bloodier!

Ben Afleck, JLo's private dick will star in the movie Paycheck; another Phillip K. Dick story on film. Sounds good.

Finally Tim Burton is back making weird films. His next film should be strange like Ed Wood. Hope so, at least. Welcome back to the land of Nod Timmy.

--------------

Looks like Prince has made the Hall Of Fame. Yippeee.

HARLAN: YIPE! I hope you have some good movies to watch.

Adam Troy Castro: David Denby had some funny remarks about The Matrix's painful dialog this week, but, a year ago, the reviewer for The Nation had the best response to the matrix movie dialog. According to him, it went something like: ". . . Yabba dabba "chosen one" yabba dabba "hero" yabba dabba "oracle" yabba yabba."

To the East Coast Members of The Board: Still no sign of V-Life in Boston or Cambridge. I'm hoping to see it by Tuesday.

Frank: "Close" reading would show that I asked "when" V-Life was coming out, and not "what" V-life is. But stay with it, Frank. You'll figure it out. I'm rooting for ya.

Steve DOoner

Yowww
Yowww, Harlan, re your current woes: been there. Consider the best wishes spoken, if they cannot actually be spoken.

I dunno what evil films are being referenced blind, but I know that some of the films I consider evil and corrupt would surprise those who think such a thing can be measured by the level of violence and cruelty therein. SCENT OF A WOMAN, with Al Pacino: nasty, evil, small-minded, paean to selfishness, with utterly no concept of right and wrong. MISSISSIPI BURNING, with Gene Hackman: cynical, corrupt, insulting fascist simplification of the real-life events. OH GOD YOU DEVIL with George Burns (along with any other film where a character who dreams of big things is magically given his wish only to find out that he was much better off keeping his head down and being satisfied with what he was): condescending, dehumanizing, an instruction manual for sheep.

THE MATRIX has some entertainment value, I think, but I have become increasingly suspect of films involving a "Chosen One" whose glorious destiny is to walk into heavily-guarded buildings and kill everything that stands between him and his goal. I don't mind it, even like it, in KILL BILL: revenge, as a storytelling trope, I can take. But "Chosen Ones?" They bother me. I have always wanted to do a story set in some kind of fantasy milieu where the bunch of village wise men in some horribly oppressed society talk about the "chosen one" who's going to save them all -- and we see the "Chosen One" walking down the street as a child -- and a cornice-stone or something falls on the brat's head and smooshes him flat, leaves the village wise men wailing and moaning, and opens the story to a normal yutz who finds an opportunity to take the problem on himself, therefore establishing that all the crisis needed was somebody to get off his ass and stand up, and that waiting for chosen ones is a tactic for people with the mindset of slaves. By taking the expected tack, by positing a poorly-socialized geek whose real life is crap but who is a long-prophesized superhero in the virtual world, THE MATRIX and its ilk reinforce that mindset. And I do find that questionable.

Once again, rant exceeded expected length...sigh...ATC

Yowww
Yowww, Harlan, re your current woes: been there. Consider the best wishes spoken, if they cannot actually be spoken.

I dunno what evil films are being referenced blind, but I know that some of the films I consider evil and corrupt would surprise those who think such a thing can be measured by the level of violence and cruelty therein. SCENT OF A WOMAN, with Al Pacino: nasty, evil, small-minded, paean to selfishness, with utterly no concept of right and wrong. MISSISSIPI BURNING, with Gene Hackman: cynical, corrupt, insulting fascist simplification of the real-life events. OH GOD YOU DEVIL with George Burns (along with any other film where a character who dreams of big things is magically given his wish only to find out that he was much better off keeping his head down and being satisfied with what he was): condescending, dehumanizing, an instruction manual for sheep.

THE MATRIX has some entertainment value, I think, but I have become increasingly suspect of films involving a "Chosen One" whose glorious destiny is to walk into heavily-guarded buildings and kill everything that stands between him and his goal. I don't mind it, even like it, in KILL BILL: revenge, as a storytelling trope, I can take. But "Chosen Ones?" They bother me. I have always wanted to do a story set in some kind of fantasy milieu where the bunch of village wise men in some horribly oppressed society talk about the "chosen one" who's going to save them all -- and we see the "Chosen One" walking down the street as a child -- and a cornice-stone or something falls on the brat's head and smooshes him flat, leaves the village wise men wailing and moaning, and opens the story to a normal yutz who finds an opportunity to take the problem on himself, therefore establishing that all the crisis needed was somebody to get off his ass and stand up, and that waiting for chosen ones is a tactic for people with the mindset of slaves. By taking the expected tack, by positing a poorly-socialized geek whose real life is crap but who is a long-prophesized superhero in the virtual world, THE MATRIX and its ilk reinforce that mindset. And I do find that questionable.

Once again, rant exceeded expected length...sigh...ATC

You're not joking then?
Good grief. I was all set to praise that witty remark, Ashton Kutcher in the Butterfly Effect, good one, I can just imagine him.....but it's a real film? Sheesh. yeah, I should do some reading.

Harlan, of course we're keeping track, every one of us and no mistake...instead of good wishes I shall just say 'Yeah, that sucks.' Had something similar once, "spasmodic torticollis" which seized me in the parking lot of a Japanese restaurant and hung around for several days. The muscle relaxants worked, but over and over I'd forget DON'T turn my head to the left OWWWW shit I've done it again...also realized that one flexes those muscles when going from lying down to sitting, so I had to ROLL out of bed.

http://www.butterflyeffectmovie.com/

Saw the full trailer yesterday. While Kutcher is far from being my favorite young actor this actually looked pretty good. Sort of an update on Ken Grimwood's novel REPLAY. It was on my perhaps-a-matinee-rather-than-DVD list of things to see.

Looking at that last paragraph I realized that I not only don't have a "favorite" young male actor but that once I look at actors younger than say, Johnny Depp, they're not even on my radar.

Perhaps this is just a function of what there is yet to be learned. I look at older actors to show me all the ways that you can be older. Nobody can show you how to be younger. That's just a losing proposition.

- Barney

Best Wishes for the Walking Wounded

I looked for the new Ellison article on the Variety website; you can get a 30 day trial subscription with an email address and no credit card. There are email addresses there for individual editors and reporters, making it possible to send a note of appreciation requesting more Ellison pieces. Which is the best kind of person to contact for that? They’ve listed everyone from Vice-President Editor-In-Chief to the ‘Dish Columnist’.

Apparently they don’t include V-Life articles in the web content, as the 17 Ellison references returned from a ‘Harlan Ellison’ search did not return anything later than 11/9/2003. Did pull up this charming little tidbit:

Presenting Christopher Knopf with the Edmond H. North Award for service to the WGA last year, sci-fi scribe Harlan Ellison wore a bathrobe and ascot -- explaining he was adhering to the request for "business attire."

Harlan, I sincerely hope you’re back in the saddle soon. The world’s a better place with you in fighting trim!


The official Newline ‘Butterfly Effect’ website was not fully functional when I visited it, but can be found at:

http://www.butterflyeffectmovie.com/

HARLAN,

Ow.

Harlan, have you tried a licensed massage therapist? They have worked wonders for me in eliminating/alleviating everything from headaches to severe back/shoulder strains in one session. Some make house calls...just a thought. Take care.

Au contraire, leelinda. The French will disinter the bones of literary lions like Alexander Dumas if they feel he has not been suitably laid to rest with pomp and circumstance.
That alone is enough to make up for the sins you enumerate. Writers in France get grants and assistance from the government, in the US writers are a social liability i.e. bums. The closest thing to a cultural minister in the US is Monsieur Jesse Helms. This great sanctuary for Oscar Wilde, Henry Miller, etc. And whose poet Baudelaire said of Edgar Allen Poe "my brother my likeness". After Poe was buried with only Walt Whitman as a witness.

Well I was HOPING to get some sympathy here but after Harlan's description of what HE'S been dealing with my troubles seemed to have melted to the picayune.

I wanted pity for the whippin' I'm taking in the Gunslinger competition ( like a red headed step child they're beatin' me over there) and HARLAN has REAL problems. It's blessed relief that it isn't life threatening but I bet if FEELS like it is. Geeze I can't stand the slightest crick in my neck.

I wish Harlan speedy relief and return to non-pain status.....and I wish ME-- A SKY FILLED WITH FLYING BLUE MONKEYS all with taste that runs toward MY short film over the others to speed me on my way to the winning place and a date next spring as promised to meet Stephen King face to face.

But enough about me.

Get well Harlan- we need you in fightin' shape and can't stand the thought of you down.

Cindy

"Scapular muscle spasm"? Godfrey Daniels. No, thanks. Don't want one. I gave at the office. Happy Vicodin and a merry advil.

Cripes.


Chuck

EXCRUTIATING PAIN

Not that anyone keeps track, but not hearing from me for the last five or so days is due to my being laid up, BIG TIME, with what Dr. Jon calls a "scapular muscle spasm." Kong-level hurting.

What it is, you ask, a "scapular muscle spasm"?

Y'know those two thick cordlike vertical bundles of muscles that run down the left and right sides of your neck, in the rear, attaching to the scapula, or shoulder blades? Well, picture the one on the left, dropping into the shoulder, that fat muscle right on top, all the way from the base of the neck behind the left ear ... picture it as a piece of wet laundry that you are squeezing all the water out of. Pardon the wonky preposition placement.

You're twisting the wet laundry, harder and harder, tighter and tighter, till the pain is so intense your eyeballs roll up.

That's been me, for at least five days. Can't stand up, can't sit down, can barely lie on my back in bed. So no new work gets done. I'm hoping to be ambulatory by Monday. Don't bother with good wishes, it ain't life-threatening, just a, well, to put it succinctly, a pain in the neck. I'm doped to those selfsame eyeballs with four Advil every three hours, Vicodin, and something called Flexeril for the spasm.

P.S. As Susan alerted you, V LIFE is a special magazine that accompanies Variety, the industry newspaper. It is, apparently, an insert (though it stands alone, slick and attractive), but all subscribers to Variety get it with their regular Variety. It can be obtained, I'm sure, by ordering separately. If you do so, please kindly mention my piece by name ... and they may give me future assignments. The chaos theory piece I wrote -- "The Captain of Fate" -- well, as best I can discern, it will be posted on some sort of website to promote the new Ashton Kutcher film, THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT. It's a New Line Film, so you might start looking on that site, if it's up and running.

Back to bed. Cheese'n'crackers, am I in pain! ouch

Yr. invalided pal, Harlan

more france
Also don't forget, the French recently gave Jean Le Pen an opportunity to be Prime Minister--sure he didn't have a chance, but the American equivalent would have been giving David Duke the presidential nomination of one of the major political parties. It seems like the lunatic fringe far right [not garden variety conservatives, mind you] has more political represenation over there than here, maybe it's due to the way their political system is set up. At any rate, not something to emulate.

So Frank, what did you think about Moore's assertion in his new book that "Mumia probably did kill that guy?" and that one of the biggest mistakes of the Left is their setting him up as some sort of innocent martyr?

"Dooner, do some reading, V-Life is an insert in Variety magazine"


Variety is 'reading'?

Who woulda thunk it.

-TODD

*I* didn't know that V-life was an insert in Variety magazine. Can I still play in your sandbox?

Follow the French !?

Getting directly to the part about agreeing with Frank on the matter of imitating France in any way: bad idea.

France is, lest we forget, a nation with a spectacular history of administrative failure that has produced among many other things the guillotine, dangerous traffic circles, Napoleon’s russian campaign, the rape of Haiti, an abandoned, unfinished Panama Canal and a noseless Sphinx.

With these high-water marks of French civil and social achievement behind them, it’s not surprising to find them where they are today: frying up their elderly and serving 'em up with freeee health care, thirty-five hour work weeks and six weeks of vacation for everyone, all paid for by drinking like a vampire from the neck of the EU, bitching eloquently and contributing nothing.

Dear Dorman:

V-LIFE: November issue is out right now. HE has the cover essay "INFAMY:THE NEW FAME."

All best: Susan

Dooner, do some reading, V-Life is an insert in Variety magazine.

---------------------

Did you all know that the Matrix films are real big with the Jehovah's Witnesses? Are the film makers Watchtowerites in disguise?

And Benny (Little Whattshuu--pookie), it is ONLY A FILM! You will go see another film, and hopefully it will be a joyous experience. Now, brush and floss, and kiss your Ellison books nighty night. Sleep and dream of good things thumper.

Love ya guyyyy.

--------------

Justin, hope you are not implying Kill Bill is pornography; that would mean every kung fu, chop socky film is also porn. It is too comical and fun loving to be mean. Believe me, you are reading this from a guy who hates Pulp Fiction because of its dark tones.

------------

I found a flub in the Michael Moore logic train: He talked about how places like France have free health care, and that we should be more like them, because they, "take care of their people." Michael, I love you like a brother, but the 15 thousand people (mostly elderly) who died because of the summer heat wave have only the French system to blame.

Imagine those many people dying in America! Michael, that's how the right get us--watch it.

Spirit Archives #12 is out!
Holy Molü! The new Eisner archives are out!

Today, I was lucky enough to acquire the new volume of Spirit sections featuring Eisner's first post-war work on The Spirit. After reading all the fine fill-in work by Lou Fine and Jack Cole that was reprinted over the past two years, I am amazed at the new bag of tricks that Eisner suddenly unveiled when he came home from the army. And DC is now using the original artwork or high quality photostats to make the archives (previous issues were made from restored newsprint sections because the artweork was lost), and the vivid beauty of Eisner's art is really coming through now. I recommend this volume as a good way to start reading Eisner, especially considering that there are BIG things to come over the next few years as they reprint the Spirit Sections from 1946 to 1949.


QUESTION FOR THE BOARD: When does V-Life come out this month? Does anybody know?

Well, it's nice to hear another good comment about _I, Robot_. And I haven't heard much good about _The Matrix Revolutions_, sad to say.

(I'd thought of a different plot-line or two. Yes, Zion's just another construct of the Matrix, to house unruly human brains. Turns out Neo's actually just another program, designed to expand the machine world's understanding of human nature. Turns out the Machines, by absorbing human nature, are starting to develop ambitions of expansion into the Universe... but they need human qualities to do it, and those qualities are in the people of Zion. They also explain that shutting down the Matrix would destroy those billions of human lives in the batteries... but if they continue as is, the people in them can enjoy fairly nice lives. Neo brokers a deal where the Zion people are put in charge of the machines' efforts to explore space. But humans remain in the tubes. Trinity continues to love him because, program or not, he's as human as anyone else. Morpheus, shattered over the revelations, dies nobly or futilely.

Or, how about this: the Matrix has nothing to do with Earth at all; as it turns out, the Matrix is simply the hallucination of an eons-old alien bio-computer which has simultaneously fragmented into billions of personalities, and which has been absorbing Earth radio-television signals for decades. Agent Smith is a manifestation of an Alzheimer's-like disease.

Or perhaps this as a really cheap-ass ending: Against all logic, the people of Zion manage to defeat the machines. They witness the towers of batteries falling, the meltdown of the machines, and the parting of the clouds around earth, revealing that the Matrix's "real world" is actually contained in a small dome... while the rest of the Earth is, in fact, a verdant, green paradise that's flourished ever since humans had been quarantined in the Matrix. As the people of Zion step out into Paradise, Neo notices a flicker in the corner of his eye. He suspects that this is just _another_ illusion, created by the Matrix to get the Zion people to shut up and be happy. He's right--but this time, he decides that he might as well accept _this_ fake reality, so he keeps his mouth shut and wanders off with Trinity.

There have been two times in my life when I felt shitty enough to flush down a toilet. The first was when I almost lashed out at my own brother during a hostile argument. The second was after seeing MATRIX: REVOLUTIONS.

There are times when I wish I owned the delicious verbal savagery of Samuel Clemens. I just simply cannot articulate my fathomless hatred for this movie. Have any one of you ever been SO angry, SO enraged beyond all measures of description, you literally can't SPEAK? Your very VOICE is choked by the towering inferno in your throat? That was pretty much my state of being upon leaving the theatre.

Damn those Wachowski maggots straight to hell, and damn me for participating in this whole diabolical cinematic excursion in the first place.

I feel inclined to take a plugged-in toaster along with me the next time I have a bath. I'll probably feel better in the morning.

Probably.

Incredible. Just incredible.

I started reading the I, ROBOT screenplay over a sandwich, mid-afternoonish, and I just finished it. Missed two classes. "Impossible to...drag...ass to class...cannot...put book down!"

HOLY MACKEREL, THAT WAS SOMETHIN'!

A good story is like an Umbrian dining experience--it leaves you buzzing afterward. That's what I feel like right now. I'd say that screenplay is the equivalent of piping hot bruschetta, followed by a plate of umbrichelli, topped with white truffles that are grated over the noodles before your very eyes, a steak slathered in black truffle sauce, followed by a melting square of tiramisu. All served by a gorgeous waitress, just to add a little extra aesthetic zing to the experience (Mark Zug's illustrations, see what I mean?).

Aghk! Hollywood is so goddamn stupid. I flat walked out of the last two pictures I went to see--I'm not saying which ones--because they were little more than pornography, catering to the diseased hive brain of a decadent and violent society. Mean-spirited codswallop, that's all it was. All about hurting people. And both of those movies were MAJOR releases! Meanwhile, a screenplay like I, ROBOT sits on the goddamn shelf.

I see that this book was published in '94, so I'm guessing the letters to Lucy Fisher (I'm assuming an avelanche of them) weren't enough. Curses...I should've read this sooner! Sure, I was thirteen when it was published, but I'd still have sent those mouth-breathing barnacle-brained louses at Warner Bros. a real choice letter! Is Fisher still there? Can I still write 'em? Can I? Pwease? *poing poing poing* Huh? Huh, can I, can I? Arrr. Bafflement. Disillusionment.

...Aw, but that don't matter none. I'm still buzzin'. I just saw I, ROBOT and it was the best movie I've seen in a long time. Thanks, Harlan!

With a big smile and a tip of the hat,

J

Now I understand why I couldn't find V-Life. He, he.

Thanks Dorman. But remember, Cindy saw me first. Wink.

------------

Appreciate my fellow JK Rowling hater.

But, Bloom has a real love of classic literature--that cannot be debated--but his open mindedness is nill. The guy is a cultural snob and an old drudge, who drinks drano in his morning coffee.

------------

I will admit to you all that the worst book so far this year is from a liberal, not a conservative. It belongs to Alan Colmes, of the Fox News Channel, who's book, Red, White And Liberal is just Gawd awful.

It is badly written, and sniveling in tone. He seems to rip off things that were in other books. And, his defense of Sean Hannity is sickening. He is one of these milk toast lib simps who think we should be nice to conservatives to show them we mean them no harm--that we come in love and tender caring for our fellow man. Makes me wanna barf.

He rips fellow liberals like Moore and Franken, and castigates the left for not being more civil. Yea, Alan, I will be civil to this bund of Bushy Nazi's--thanks for the advice. Blow me.

Remember what Harlan said about liberals and their failure to make a fist?

SUSAN (didn't want to bug Harlan, 'cause it "sounds" like he's busy writing those new stories for STRANGE WINE and ELLISON WONDERLAND, among others): Do you know which issue of "Variety" features Harlan's latest essay? I know the essay is in V-Life, and I was told by folks who work at "Variety" that "V-Life" is a monthly insert to the main magazine. But the two young ladies I spoke with weren't able to pin down WHEN in November "V-Life" would appear in "Variety" (whew). I've got all the ordering info (address, how much the magazine costs). Now all I need to know is what issue I'd like to order so I can check out the new essay. And tell Harlan that the new material for BLOOD'S A ROVER (in the signed edtion of VIC & BLOOD) is Kazoo-blowing terrific. Can't wait to read more.

All best,
Dorman
P.S. If anyone on the board -- probably living in the L.A. region -- already bought it and knows which Nov. issue of "Variety" contains the new Ellison essay, by all means chime in (and thanks in advance should you know).

But Jon, if you removed 90% of someone's brain, you'd be 90% likely to cut out the 10% that's being used.

Wouldn't that make the person capable of voting a burned out action hero into high office?

Ben: I think it's a case of old wine in new bottles. First we died for real when we died in our dreams. Now we die for real when we die in VR simulations.

And if I hear 'We only use ten per cent of our brains' one more time, I'm going to ask the speaker to submit to having 90% of his or her brain removed.

Cheers, Jon

Regarding Brian Siano's contention that Harold Bloom "knows his classical literature" on the other message board,(I'm to lazy to register)I'd have to disagree with that. If you read Bloom's How to Read and Why he describes Edgar Allan Poe thusly "An ATROCIOUS writer who only reads well in translation, even into English"...Paralogical of Bloom to sneer that Stephen King "share's nothing with Poe" while his own assessment of that writer could be his opinion of King!

Although I agree with Bloom's flushing of the J.K. Rowling contagion.

Ben said, he said, he said:
"Random Thought For the Day
Ever noticed how in all of these fancy-pants virtual reality movies one character always says at some point in the plot, "If you DIE in the VR world...you DIE for REAL!"

Does that strike anybody as just plain dumb? I mean, why would I want to hook up to a video game where I'm liable to be turned into a buttermilk pancake in real life if I was trampled by a horde of wild elephants while exploring a virtual South Africa?"

_Futurama_ did a nice riff on that. The characters had to put on VR headsets to run tinyrobot versions of themselves to explore in Fry's intestine. Later on in the show, one of the characters' robot-avatars pulls out a sword and hacks the rest of them to bloody bits. Suddenly we cut back to the full-sized characters... who shrug, take off their headsets, and go on with life.

Random Thought For the Day
Ever noticed how in all of these fancy-pants virtual reality movies one character always says at some point in the plot, "If you DIE in the VR world...you DIE for REAL!"

Does that strike anybody as just plain dumb? I mean, why would I want to hook up to a video game where I'm liable to be turned into a buttermilk pancake in real life if I was trampled by a horde of wild elephants while exploring a virtual South Africa?

Look, I wouldn't have played SUPER MARIO BROS. if there was a chance I'd spontaneously combust every time I got hit by a fireball from King frickin' Koopa.

Glad to see they finally nabbed the Green River Killer, but I was expecting Hannibal Lector with a hook and a lower jaw that juts way beyond his forehead, but look at him--he looks like some dude you might see at a swap meet, or a rotary club meeting. Scary to always understand that the monster we most likely resemble has a trusting face, and a happy grin.

Lee said,
"...the most accessible and beneficial meditations are obtained through mind-less repetition of pre-learned physical motions and also that not even fervent prayer can reproduce the deeply spiritual feeling that wells up out of a hot rolling sweat taken with plenty of water."

Tis true, tis true.

Did Someone Mention Meditation and Religion?

In my mind, the problem with static meditation and religion is that there’s such a fine line between autocatalysing the evolution of your inner space and simply sitting on your ass staring vacantly at a candle. Call it meditation or call it prayer; it works better if you do it while moving around. Aside from sixteen years of the ballet thang, I took yoga intensively for two years to control the pain from an injury (it worked), studied Kenpo karate with some focus on zen meditation for twelve years (still doing it), and have also explored and rejected transcendental meditation, Catholic, Protestant and christian science prayer, and whining sullenly at a God that never answers.

From these activities, interlaced through a period of about thirty years, I have concluded that the most accessible and beneficial meditations are obtained through mind-less repetition of pre-learned physical motions and also that not even fervent prayer can reproduce the deeply spiritual feeling that wells up out of a hot rolling sweat taken with plenty of water. If I could choose to be extraordinary in only one aspect of physical, mental or spiritual fitness, I would pick cardiovascular fitness in a heartbeat – everything else seems to follow in train behind it.

Illustrated Ellison
The illustrations I found most memorable were the Blue Jews in "I'm Looking For Kadak". Not for sheer artistic talent (that would have to be Mind Fields), only because they made me laugh, I think they're dead-on perfect representations of the characters described.

Steve: Actually, Steve, they should refine the study as much as possible. Then we could all decide our religious preferences with the added help of taglines like "Unitarians -- 17% longer-lived than Seventh Day Adventists!"

Board: Well, here's a general question unrelated to vomiting robot-clown-dogs -- what's the best (or 'your favourite') comic adaptation of an Ellison work? I quite like the Marshall Rogers-illustrated Demon with a Glass Hand. The art's scarily crisp, if that makes any sense.

Take care, Jon

Retiring From the Field
P. A. Berman: I can see that you are trying to move to higher ground oin this issue, but I think you are misrepresenting the discussion on this "prayer" thing. There were more than a few people who posted on either side of the question. Also, faith and unbelief is part of a reoccurring discussion here in the Webderland. I'm not sure you are being fair when you say we shouldn't engage in such conversations here.

My intention was never to publish a screed, but to inject some humor and skepticism into the discussion. Newsweek should never be considered a source for ANYTHING, and, as it turns out, the article doesn't say that "prayer" or "belief in God" extends your life. It merely says that "going to church," yes, "church attendance" extends your life, which is meaningless baloney.

Though I was a touch abrasive, I wanted to try to raise some qualitative aspects of the discussion in my posts, P. A., like: What does prayer mean? Is prayer always positive? Is prayer more often spiritual or materialistic? Perhaps I should have taken another tact, but porr Rob was just trying to engage in the discussion fully, and he got all beat up.

Is this topic relevant for the board? Well, the topic could bear, albeit tangentially, on Harlan's works, in that I keep imagining some great Tick-tock Man shortening people's lives because they failed to attend church.

I do admire your your desire to simmer things down, though, and recognize my poor attempts at humor may have been misplaced.

Yours until my cardio-plate is shut down,

Steve Dooner

Rules, schmules
As I believe I've said here before (and if not, as I believe I am now saying for the first time):

I don't bring down the hammer the first time someone accidentally posts twice in one day when they intended to wait until the next day, as long as it was obviously an unintentional breach and they have the good grace to not post that entire next day. Additionally, an immediate double-post entirely devoted to correcting a typo or mistake in the previous post (NOT to add an addendum or more thoughts!) is usually okay as long as there are no intervening posts between the two and/or a very small amount of time has passed between them.

This is NOT to say it is not still against the rules, just that in these circumstances I am inclined to, as a certain New Jersey waste management executive might say, give you a pass.

Having said that, the management is not deaf to the messages you have been winging my way through the ether. I have sent PAB a cease-and-desist email, and asked Rob to take an unpaid vacation from the board over this weekend.

Toodles,
Rick

Now I'm gonna triple post to say, where I am it's not Wednesday anymore and hasn't been for almost an hour, so mea maxima culpa on that. Is this board on PST? Mucho apologies to Rick; I really thought it was tomorrow. Going away now...

PAB

Frank: Thanks for the apple and glad to be back, though don't count on seeing me much. I'm awful busy (report cards are due).

Steve? Rob? Brilliant rhetoric on both your parts, but no one is arguing with either of you, a fact you both seem to be missing utterly. I personally have zero interest in what other people do in their spirutal lives, and did not express an opinion about prayer whatsoever in my posts. Neither did Frank really. So who, exactly, are you arguing with?

No, I only mentioned brought the subject up in order to point out a fascinating phenomenon: how some people can take one line in someone's post, said in jest as a toss-off, and turn it into a tirade (noun: a long, blustering speech, usu. of censure), going so far as to unrepentantly DOUBLE POST in order to repost pearls of wisdom posted earlier that day, that were never really in question anyway, esp. on pet topics. Not to mention the unnecessary personally insulting comments thrown in along the way.

I think I've made my point about this and you, Rob, missed it, and took Steve to Missed the Point Hell with you. If you feel that you must go off and post a screed (noun: a long, repetitious piece of writing), do it on the Forum. The Pavilion is not the place for going on at length, nor to post more than once a day. Right?

PAB

Damn! I was all set to apply for the job of Audioanimatronic Whatever.

My Vote Is In!!
***My vote is in--for you Cindy! Good luck!! Interesting that the film I liked least-" The Gunslinger and the man in Black " is winning so far...

Rob, I'd suspect that prayer is merely the intense relay of endorphins into the body from positive thinking. In my curmudgeonly way, I am fucked no matter what. We are both as idealistic as pit bull's on crack.

--------------

Paula, welcome back. Your red pencil is always welcome. Here's an apple teach. De-wormed for your eating pleasure.

--------------

Todd, Paul Krugman would have something to say about your false rosy picture on the economy. The stock market doesn't represent the "real" economy. Those 3 million lost jobs will not come back, and real wages have gone down. And the false positives are because of early christmas shopping. You will see the numbers subside soon.

This is not a partisan rant. The same rosy picture was used during Clinton's watch, and it was false as well. The one big lie that Al Franken cannot take back.

-------------

Yes, I did go to Rim Of The World School, but I never told you what year. Wink.

--------------

Mark, Moore had the usual wild, large crowd. Lots of hoots and applause. Good, funny slams on Bush. As he gets older, Moore gets more radical. I wanted to hug the guy, but I chilled and shook his hand. Nice night. Not as good as Harlan would be, but who is.

Rob: Did you actually... DOUBLE POST yesterday just to go off on a TIRADE against me for making a joke? See, this is the exact kind of behavior that I called hilarious. I am, at this very moment, laughing. Honestly, Rob, take some time to reflect. Also, consider taking up a hobby outside the house. I wish I had your kind of free time to compose such lengthy screeds. Truly you are man to be envied.

Love and kisses,
The Bermanator, lovin' to push those honkin' big buttons

Sorry!
Whoops! That was my mistake. The previous post is obviously by me Steve Dooner. I do not wish to get Rob in any trouble for exceeding his daily limits. I fully menat to place my name in the box.

Got My Polyesther Prayer Handkerchief and My Plastic Rosary Beads

WEEEELLLL DOGGGIES!

I got mah polyesther prayer handkerchief and mah plastic roasry beads and I'm ready to have a nice long life span.

Oh, but I'm sure I've made some folks recoil. Surely, the above implements of prayer are not genuine forms of praying. No, only the enlightened "non-cheesy" kind of praying counts. Ohhhh, but did ever consider that maybe that isn't the kind that lengthens your life?

Hey, maybe it's all the people who pray against other people to hurt them or to take their things--maybe they get the long life spans. Or maybe it's the folks who pray to get money or success. Maybe it's all them there grammy winners who go about thanking Jesus for their latest masterpiece of misogyny. Or perhaps its the boxer who thoroughly trounces his opponent with Jesus in his mind. Best yet, maybe it's all those war prayers-- like the ones Mark Twain wrote about--that makes you live longer. Heck, we Americans have longer life-spans than those heathen Iraqis, so our prayer must please the Lord and increase our longevity. I don't even have to do a study; I can jsut look up the demographics and draw the conclusion.

I even know people who have lived off sheer hatred for years longer than they should have. Has anybody done a study on why mean people live so damn long? Perhaps meaness is a form of prayer.

Getting longevity based on hatred, ghettoism, materialism, racism and rank nationalism hardly seems worth it. I would extend this to most forms of prayer.

One last thing for those who never look outside of Western culture, Ananda K. Coomaraswammy was mystified that people in the West actually pray to get things. Hmmmmmm.

Glad to go to hell with ya, Rob.

Steve Dooner

test
Cindy,

The test went okay--I had a little trouble on the typing because they made you use the 10-key but I still passed and that's all that matters. I think I'll probably get a position based on my previous work, especially since it was for another government agency. I don't think it will be a permanent thing but it should last a few months. I have no idea when they'll start or when any kind of decision will be made though.

Amazon may actually have some issues here...
I wasn't able to pick up any short stories, but I was able to get to some essays by typing in certain words. And something else.

I typed in "it was a pleasure to burn" in the search field to see what I could come up with and it did bring me to the book, but it only allows you to look at two pages and then it sent me to the blurbs on the back cover. So it looks like the maximum you can see is three pages.

HOWEVER, just out of curiousity I typed in "guy said" in the "Search Inside this book" and it brought me to various pages throughout the book. Given that, you literally can read the book online if you are so inclined by typing certain phrases (he said, she said, etc.). It's a pain in the ass to do, but it can be done. Also, you can't cut and paste the words, but a screen shot can be done and from there it's not much problem getting the words to appropriate application to make it more palatable.

So it looks like there actually may be a problem 'cause you can (with a little work) get the whole book without paying for it.

Copyright problems at Amazon.com
HARLAN: Don't know if you and/or your group of legal eagles already know about this (it's been a subject of some discussion on the internet of late), but this column by John Savage about Amazon.com's new "search" tool (that allows potential browsers to check out parts of the book), might be of some interest to you:
savage.authorslawyer.com/journals/j3b.shtml#3b03

Haven't tried it myself, but according to John Savage, the new "search tool" didn't account for anthologies...and apparently, some of the customers are finding themselves able to download entire stories or essays (because the "search tool" sees them as portions of a larger work).

Of course, if Mr. Savage is already working for you (the name do sound familiar), nevermind.
All best,

Dorman

CINDY: Glad I gave you a boost. And glad the website acknowledged the film.

FRANK: How’s was Moore’s lecture? I missed his talk at UMASS Dartmouth because the school made it nigh impossible for anyone not a student to get tickets, and I’m an alum, for Chrissakes.

CBS pulled out from showing “The Reagans.” Damn! Another Liberal plot foiled by Wil E. Republicans. Yup, those bed-wetting Liberal corporate executives at Viacom couldn’t stand up to a fair and balanced Internet-fomented rebellion. Now that us lefties can’t lick our chops over a fictional account of a Republican icon, what to do? Well, guess we’ll just have to tune into a real Republican failure taking place in Iraq. And we can always count on 19th Century Fox News to take care of our lurid taste for fiction.

Best,
Mark

...And He TAKES The Bait!

PAB,

Be damned if muh ego’s gonna let THAT one go by.

Tirade: "A prolonged outburst of bitter, unspoken denunciation"

Now, PAB. As they must say time and time again in the Women’s Clubs, "PUH-LEEZE".

If you can call what I wrote Frank a "tirade" I’d hate to see how badly you must lose domestic fights. Just HOW did I get slapped with that one, anyway? Steve Dooner's response was a far more in-your-face challenge than mine (sorry, Steve, but if I have to go ta Hell I'm takin' you with me). In fact, my tone was restrained and complaisant and to-the-point. The hardest note I hit was "belay the sermon and faulty reasoning" in my closer, and an honest assessment about what people try to use to argue their faiths. THAT’S a tirade? EVEN if Frank had not explicitly stated he believes the validy of what I laughingly refer to as a study, I do think he buys into it...EASY. And to infer that Frank tosses in rhetorical grenades now and then just to mess with our gyros is, in my opinion, giving him too much credit. Frank says what he believes and believes what he says.

Hey...I’m going to put the evidence where everyone can see it - and then you be pointin’ me out where I dun "tiraded", Miz Daisy:

"Any state of relaxation eases internal body function. The more stress is alleviated the more chances are added to a longer life span. That’s what meditation is for (which many good Atheists do). And meditation comes in MANY forms – Zen, transcendental, prayer, it doesn’t matter. Belief – whatever it is you prefer to indulge – CAN play a role, but it doesn't HAVE to. There are many ways to achieve the same end. The key is in whatever it takes to focus your mind and relax you into controlled breathing. But supernatural faiths don’t HAVE to factor in at ALL. The key is focusing the mind; that’s what draws you away from life’s stresses tearing subtly at your physical state over the years. Whatever the catalyst, when you enter a state of meditation – of internal relaxation or tranquility – tangible physiological effects take place in the cerebral cortex: increased EEG, blood flow to the brain, muscle relaxation, and a decrease in stress hormones. TM seems to increase efficiency of information transfer in the brain and lower heart and respiration rates, and INCREASE reflex responses. This contributes to health, endurance, and well-being.

Whether it’s in the discipline of the Chi, or breathing exercises, or even just an escapist daydream (as an artist, that one tends to be MY route out of the world), or prayer it regulates your metabolic state and therefore effects your term on Eoith.

So, belay the sermon and faulty reasoning. Because all emotions are physical activity, and whatever allows you to eliminate the physical pressures your emotional state can inflict (possibly the biggest contributor to a shorter life) will work. It's an issue of whatever works for YOU: but in itself it neither confirms (however illusory) nor disproves the existence of supernatural beings. (It is in human nature to often fall back on a conveniently fallacious argument, overlooking the obvious, to reassure oneself of one’s blind faith.)"

You and Frank are prayer freaks. I understand. And that's fine. All those methods work, depending on how you're wired. Just understand, no external entity is causing it to work. YOU are. That there's whatcha call yer clincher.

The End of Todd Cassel

Hey, everbody! Lookit! I just learned who Frank Court really is! It's not what everbody was thinking, actually, he ….


Broad shouldered shadow slides across wall as Frank Court moves silently away, trusty meathook glistening wetly.

Chuck!!!
Laid off!
Those bastards didn't deserve you. Keep thinking postively and something will pop up and it will be far better than what you had before-- I'm sure of it. In the meantime know that I'm praying for