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The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 12/06/98 to 12/31/98

Charlie
- Thursday December 31 1998 19:18:09

Swinky - Keep your eye on the Showtime site for upcoming Outer Limits episodes. showtimeonline.com Charlie

MAGGIE: No, I'm not a native Utahn, or even that lower form of life, a California Transplant; we moved here from New Jersey (near Philadelphia) in 1991. One of the most moving pieces of HE's writing, for me, is in the introduction to Shatterday, where he recounts telling a Salt Lake radio DJ how sometimes HE wished his sick mother would just die, shocking the DJ--but then a woman (I'm presuming a "Saint") called in to say that she thought she was the only one who had those same type of feelings. Read it if you get a chance. I'm in tears just typing here now. -- Billy D.

While you're waiting for Harlan to appear on Politically Incorrect, give a listen to his performances on the Dove Tape editions of "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" and "The Titanic Disaster Hearings" the latter contains three different characters portrayed by Harlan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'll be happy to see the end of 1998. In the month of December alone my Father suffered a massive stroke on the 6th, his twin sister also suffered a massive stroke on the 17th, and my Father-In-Law had a quadruple bypass on the 28th. Here's to a much, MUCH better 1999. ___________________________________ Shane

Hey Billy D - Wow. HE fans were REALLY thin on the ground when I still lived in Zion. I always imagined that was because HE would not be likely to find favor with "The Brethren" as it were. Emmigration Canyon is a nice area. Are you native, or one of (what seems like) the millions of California refugees? PEG - it was rather nippy here this week. One day, as I was standing out in the wind (30-50mph gusts) with an actual temp of 1 (waiting for the bus), I kept telling myself that it was much colder where you were! Finder! Yeah! The Bobs! I am not much of a morning person, and in fact, it takes a good 20 - 30 min of really loud music to get me out of bed in the morning. So, one morning, I was in bed, barely in the here and now, when I heard "First I was a Hippie, then I was a Stock Broker, Now I am a Hippie Again." Actually woke me right up to stare at my radio in amazement. Ended up calling the radio station later in the day to be sure I hadn't dreamed the whole thing. How can you not love a group that sings such songs? Not the same since Janie Bob and Gundar Bob left though. Anyway. Essay vs. fiction? Well, it depends upon my mood. Although, it was "The Glass Teat" that just sucked me on in to the writings of HE. I am really looking forward to the Edgeworks volume that has that and "The Other Glass Teat" in it. It was the book that really helped me start the whole process of critical thinking. Trust me, it wasn't taught in my school or anywhere else I went. I think sometimes about becoming an English teacher, and if I ever do it, "The Glass Teat" would be required reading. Especially in high school! Well off to earn my buck. See you all next year! (yes, I know that seems very adolescent, but somehow - likely my father's genes - I really get a huge kick out of telling everybody that!)

That's i-n-t-r-i-g-u-e-d. Right?

Here, here, Swinky. You are right--I'm just getting used to the idea that I can talk to people who actually read HE, and it's interesting to find out where we fall on the wide spectrum of his writings. Sorry about the double-post. I got disconnected in the middle of the first attempt (rookie move). Finally found the Onion (I got the address wrong on my first try and ended up on some webline-matchmaking-singles thing) and laughed my ass off. Found an interview with HE and lots of other interesting people, too. The Church of the Subgenius requires knowledge and dialect I hope I'll pick up in time, but I was really intriged. Gracias! Wylie

hey everyone! I saw some new sights (sites) today--thanks for the tips and keep 'em comin'. The kid's asleep, spouse is at work, and it's my night to surf...or read...or watch a movie...or call a friend... lucky me. So long. wylie

hey everyone! I saw some new sights (sites) today--thanks for the tips and keep 'em comin'. The kid's asleep, spouse is at work, and it's my night to surf...or read...or watch a movie...or call a friend... lucky me. So long. wylie

Hello Again I may have missed the answer to my question or maybe y'all just ignored me, But I wondered If anyone knows. When will Human operators be aired on The Outer Limits? Thankyou if anyone knows. On a different note many people here have mentioned that they like the darker, or the lighter, or the non-fiction, better. but I would argue that the value of Harlan's work no matter what it may be is that it makes us think. He is a gadfly in a society that needs more of his kind. Thankyou for your time. Thankyou Mr. Ellison for your stories and essays alike. One more thing. I think that every one of his stories is a commentary on politics, society or just humanity. This may be obvious to you all but it needed to be said

I'm torn on the fiction vs. essay preference. A lot of it has to do with mood and expectation, I guess. With a HE essay, I know I can expect an unflinching, no-apology opinion, and I will probably learn a few things in the process that will make me stop and think. A story from HE will cause a similar 'whoa, never thought about that before', but it's a more subtle effect, almost subversive in its way. The essay comes screaming from the sky, the fiction prowls with the grace of a panther. Either way, I'm usually left dazed in the aftermath...PAUL - The only problem I have with Prince (or the Artist, as is his current want) is that his focus has been very soft since the early 90's. He's a tremendously gifted musician, and when he's tuned in, he can write very poetic and insightful (and very wryly amusing) lyrics. But over the last few years, it seems like there's been a lot more run-of-the-mill dance filler spacing out his gems. "Emancipation" could have been solid at two discs, for example. And as an aside, I thought HE was still very much into the Blues and a variety of jazzes; is my intelligence outmoded again? -- Finder

Wylie - If topical satire is your bag, check out The Onion (www.theonion.com). It's an online version of a print newspaper from Milwaukee. Very funny, sometimes painfully so. It also has reviews, interviews and other goodies. For inspired weirdness, try the Church of the Subgenius (www.subgenius.com). Religion? Hoax? Performance art? Parody? The choice is yours...Happy Surfing! Mitch

BILLY D> thanks for the tip--I'm looking forward to checking out that site. :) PAUL> that's -mine-,not -fine-. typo city. zang. see ya, wylie.

Sometimes I think I prefer HE's non-fiction, too, Paul. I remember enjoying the introductions to his stories more than the stories themselves. An aquaintence (sp?) of fine says HE is the greatest essayist of the 20th century. duuuuhhh!

MAGGIE--re: your "feet of the Wasatch" reference: my wife and I have been building a home in Emigration canyon for the last four years. When you're back visiting Zion next time, give us a holler. WYLIE: If you like both reading and movies, then combine the two: check out www.script-o-rama.com -- it has hyperlinks to loads of screenplays. I go there when I need inspiration (or just a scene to steal). -- Billy D.

Am I the only one who wants Harlan to go back to non fiction? His essays are the more interesting of his written works because he gets to the bone a bit more. His angry style is good to see in an age of the newt world order. And on the music tip. Harlan is not fond of rock music so you folks who adore a certain band, believe me, harlan could care less.(lol) Hes into classical and more softer forms now for some reason. Rock is the music of rebellion, You would think that would help his muse more. Oh well thats life eh? Noone mentioned prince as a musical influence. Can You name a better musician or songwriter? The harlan ellison of melody id say. Peace.

Hi. My name is Peter. And I'm a bookoholic. It's been three minutes since I read my last book. I went on a binge and devoured all four hundred pages of the new Dean Koontz in less than eight hours of total reading time. I started this afternoon and ended at approximately midnight (how appropriate). Do I need help? How can people claim that illiteracy runs rampant in this world when people like me make up for those millions who don't read? I dunno. I'm zoned. I'm tired. I feel like I've been mentally violated. But wow, what a ride. (this has been brought to you by the society to promote reading at all costs. Read a book. Read a good book. Read a shitty book. Read the ingredients on your hot dog packets -better not- just read. Thank you) ---Peter (feeling slightly better except for the strained eyes and blurred vision.)

So, I can't stay away. All of you sure listen to interesting music. I think ecclectic tastes are really the norm among thinking types like HE readers. Thought I'd mention Ray Charles and Etta James, Van Morrison, Dave Matthews Band, Mozart, Henryk Goreki, and Portishead._________________________________________ ______Would anyone like to share a favorite site with me? I know the web is full of cool stuff, but maybe someone can send me in a direction I wouldn't find on my own. So far, Ellison Webderland is the only site I check out every time I go online and I love it, but what else is out there? Thanks in advance.--Wylie

Welcome to all the newcomers/recently de-lurked! MAGGIE - I know the Bobs - I had a very dear friend in college who introduced me to the whole a capella side of the galaxy (he was in the male a capella group at the university). Since his introduction of "My, I'm Large" into my consciousness, I haven't looked back - though I still haven't added "I Brow Club" (though that Borders Books & Music gift card is buring a hole in my pocket, it may go towards the new Miles Davis "Bitches Brew" sessions box) ALL - Hope your holidays were good to you; my gifties were mostly practical (I had a new kitchen and nothing to cut/cook/eat with - the perils of growing accustomed to a roommate and the associated accessories), but courtesy of a very good friend (I know where you lurk), I've got my illustrated "Repent, Harlequin..." - now all I need is someone to tuck me in and read it to me...SIGH. Maybe next year...Enjoy what remains of '98 --Finder

P.S. HE appears on PI on 1/5, not 1/4 as previously reported.

Thanks for the "Jeffty" replies. Charlie

I've spoken to Harlan about why and for whom he writes, but have little more to add on the subject. I do know that he doesn't write an autobiography or novel because he doesn't WANT to, and he was taken back by the notion that he should because the works would be popular or well liked or make lots of money. As for little Jeffty, let's just say that as much as one may like a radio, it's not a good idea to set it on the side of the tub during a bath. You know, one little "slip" by Mommy and bzzzzzzzzzzzt....

charlie> his mother kills him. still gives me the shivers. read it again. happy trails--wylie

Gotta Question Re: Jeffty- I know HE says you're a sloven reader if you can't figure out what happens to Jeffty at the end of the story. Okay, so I must be sloven. What happened to little Jeffty?????????

Not that anybody cares, but... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On priorities in HE's writing - we talked about this a bit during our phone call. I asked if there was something he wanted readers to take away from his work, beyond a gosh-that-was-entertaining feeling. And essentially HE said no, he's not necessarily out to enlighten the world. (okay, it's paraphrasing a bit, he was quite a bit more animated about it!) From the interviews, commentaries, etc., I've seen, my impression is that HE writes because he can't not write, it's what he DOES. (and that could be a direct quote of some kind). Add to that the phone call, and I think he primarily wants to entertain readers, but he writes about what moves him not what moves them. If they get some deep thoughts and grow a bit, all the better, but it's more a bonus. Anyway, I'm not the end-all authority, Rick or Barney could give a better answer I'm sure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On music - I find I enjoy almost any variety of music *in the right forum*. I love to dance to ANYTHING with a rythym I can follow, but I don't necessarily enjoy just listening to the music (industrial and country fall into this). Lots of music I like to sing to as well that I would probably pass by in other circumstances. Opera is really best in live performance, pales on a record. So, anyway, I like TONS of stuff. Our CD collection is eclectic at the least, bizarre in some cases (aborignal australian anyone?) and mainstream across many genres. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gotta go, back to the grind >>>>>>>>>>> The Pegster

Howdy to you too Sue! Am I supposed to post some sort of bio? Let's see, the short version of that goes something like this - I was born and raised at the feet of the Wasatch Mountains and my heart's home lies high up in the Uintah's. I got a degree in theatre (technical mostly - lighting designer, stage manager, master electrician that sort of thing) with a minor in English. Quickly decided that this was not the way I wished to make a living. Lived in Boulder for a couple of years and then packed up and moved to Minnesota. I have a very checkered career history, but worked with developmentally disabled folks for 8 years. Finally decided I was sick and tired of living pay check to pay check, and here I am in the land of filthy lucre. Oh yeah, I'm a girl! In case you were wondering. Hey Paul, what exactly do you read that you would not call HE a very good writer?!?!? I write things all the time and I'd give body parts for even half of the precision of HE's writing, let alone the creativity! And if you start quoting Ulysses at me, I am going to get very hostile. I'm really not all that interested in self-indulgent, great art crap (I have nothing against Joyce, I think he was marvelously gifted, and I do admire the pushing the boundaries aspect of that whole stream of conciousness thing, but enough is enough. Hey, I don't get that philosphy - you know, if a tree falls in a forest - thing either. Seems a complete waste of time to me, but there you go, just the kind of person that I am). About my musical tastes - the list is big. I don't go in much for country - all that whining - although I do like generally like western music. Not big on rap or most of the guitar abuse passing for heavy metal. I took voice lessons for 7 years, and I have noticed that if a song has words, I have definite predilection for words I can sing. This means I own virtually no sopranos. Anybody ever hear of The Bobs?

greetings all. have realized that lately i've read tons about HE, and nothing by him. i'll come back when i've refueled. be well.--wylie

Ooooo...so many topics. Where to begin? PAUL - Let's start with you. Harlan 'cares more about entertainment than enlightenment'? Then why is he virtually unknown outside of SF circles, yet Sidney Sheldon cranks out bestsellers? I think the reverse holds true. Next, you criticize him for not being the vocal activist he was in previous years. Activism isn't a one-man operation. Hopefully, he's inspired others, including yourself, to get involved. As for the Henry Miller issue...Huh? Maybe HE doesn't have an opinion of him, maybe he hasn't seen the need to commit said opinion to paper. Terry Pratchett is one of my favorite authors. I've never read anything by HE that mentions him. Big F@ckin' Deal. Anyway, thanks for your 2 cents, here's your change...MUSIC - I'm a big PJ Harvey fan. Just got her new album for Xmas. I also love They Might Be Giants, Floyd, Tool, Chemical Bros, old-school rap, Van Halen (w/ DLR, natch), Metallica, Simon & Garfunkel, and of course, the greatest band in Canada and all points south, RUSH! Don't swallow your tongue, kids...MOVIES - My favorite directors are Woody Allen (despite his personal life, he makes a helluva flick), Terry Gilliam (if you haven't seen Baron Munchausen, do!), Joel Coen ("Miller's Crossing" is still their best work) and Akira Kurosawa (RIP). Other top movies include Dangerous Liaisons, Searching for Bobby Fischer, The Blues Brothers, The Fifth Element and Conan the Barbarian (great soundtracks on the last three, BTW). All talked out for now. Mitch

wylie::: Rammstein is a German metal/industrial band who recently gained a modicum of notoriety in the States when a couple of their songs appeared on the soundtrack for David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY. They have two albums (both of which are available in most record stores), Sehnsucht and Herzeleid. They sing completely in german (though Sehnsucht has a couple of songs sung in translation, the german is infinitely better), and rely heavily on both electric guitars and sampler keyboards. Uhh. Does that answer your question?---Peter (getting better slowly, ever so slowly.)

This board always draws me back...but since I'm only skimming, I'd just thought I'd note a factual inaccuracy in SLIPPAGE, wherein Ellison suggests Donald Westlake's "Curt Clark" fiction is hard to find--it might be out of print now, but Mysterious Press/Warner had a collection of Westlake's CC work, TOMORROW'S CRIMES, out about six years ago that is likely attainable with a small effort. ANARCHAOS, the novel that takes up the bulk of the collection, is remarkably stupid as extrapolative sociology (Westlake has leftist-communitarian-anarchist types engaging in behavior the most addled Ayn-Randian Objectivist would find a bit egomaniacal), particularly coming from the same man who could write "The Winner" or some of the other stories in this book, but it is readable, and the other stories in the book make up for this one's conceptual problems (and Ellison liked it a lot more than I did). "Nackles" is unsurprisingly included as well (I first read "Nackles" in Terry Carr's NEW WORLDS OF FANTASY series, but that dates back to the late '60s/early '70s). Just in case the taste of "Clark" in SLIPPAGE made you hungry for more, beyond such recent Westlake speculative fiction as HUMANS. Happy belated solstice, all! (And, Cookie, I've never found it hurt my puzzler too much to like both punk and jazz, and even people like John Zorn who want come close to uniting both...anyone else hear Al Kooper on NPR's FRESH AIR, talking about the early good days of Blood Sweat and Tears, the other band ((with Chicago)) that boldly set the standards for fuzak after they kicked Kooper out? Fusion was bubbling up all over the latter '60s, Miles Davis was riding that pony by '68 and he wasn't the first, B. Free Jazz and Fusion were two sides of the same coin, along with Chamber Jazz and Hard Bop continuing to make their presence felt, and pop bands like the Animals and the Zombies trying to get as jazzy as they felt their audiences or their recording labels would allow...)

Gratitude, Sue, for your response. wish i had time to find those archives, but i have to get to work and review the holiday carnage, so maybe tomorrow. it's starting to sound good compared to witnessing my now wildly spoiled son freak about getting back into a routine which doesn't involve opening presents and eating fudge and basically getting away with murder. maybe i'll put on boy and his dog after the store closes, now that i'm prepared. thanks again. wylie

Welcome wylie :-) and a belated howdy to Peter, and Maggie (oops - that's the trouble with lurking when you should be writing).. Nice to get new blood - relieves me of the guilt and burden of having to post daily to see the list move... ;-) ... If you've been lurking for a while, you know who I am. If not, ummmm, I think I did that "bio" thing when I started posting here.. In the archives somewhere.. back, ummm, well, I can't remember.. And no comments on that, folks.. **WYLIE** Speaking of 'Blood' - I have "A Boy And His Dog" in the VCR Vault somewhere. I thought it stuck to the origonal story line pretty well. A somewhat bleak flick visually, and quiet aurally (which fits the story) - a very skinny Don Johnson in the lead (liked the dog better) - and I haven't even thought about it in a looong time, so it couldn't have impressed me too much.. I don't know if that is the kind of feedback you were looking for, but that's all I have... ;-) ... Hope everyone got sated on Holiday goodies - I did. And now off to restack and recount the "take".. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Thanks scot for your redneck chowderhead response. Anyone who lives in Alabama deserves what they get eh? I looked over my writing and didnt see the mistakes you attribute to me. But maybe debate is not an esteemed method of operation in your sector of lowbrow thought. I made some good points about Harlan, but they were breezed over. Makes you wonder what that southern flag is doing to y,all down there. Yow..

Nicole> have to say it's the less dark stuff of HE's i prefer. honestly--I've never been able to stomach deathbird stories at all. i remember a cool story from the first Poppy Z. Brite collection of vampire stories--lesbian vampire who did safe, free abortions--know the one? by the way, I don't want to pull a "Shaz" and be of ambiguous sexual identity, so here's the 411: I'm female, married, bi, and a mother of a toddler. Everything they say about 2 year olds is true...

Peter> tell me about Rammstein. that's a new name to me. sorry your sick. take care. wylie

Music, eh? NIN is cool. But my tastes vary when it comes to music. I love jazz. Played a mean trombone when I was younger. Loved wrapping myself around a slow melodic swing. Especially the bass notes. mmmm. I smile just thinking about that buzz. Some of the resurgent swing/ska bands don't do much for me, but Brian Setzer is okay, and I can really get into Save Ferris.--- A lot of rock, from the Beatles, to Pink Floyd, to Smashing Pumpkins. Some weezer, a little pinch of Metallica, a dash of Devo, a smidgen of Tori Amos, a whole heap of Rammstein, plus one or two strays such as Korn, Space, Spacehog, and Tool. You've basically got my album collection. Hmm, I wonder what that says about me? I look at it all as a sign of balance. But that's me and my philosophical beliefs talking.::: Peter (brain dead and still sick. That goodness it happened AFTER finals.)

Well, if we're talking about music, I have to jump in. Nice list, Doc, especially NIN. I didn't see any Goth music tho. I listen mostly to stuff like Switchblade Symphony (favorite band!), Christian Death (esp the stuff with the late Rozz Williams), Alien Sex Fiend (I get makeup tips from Nik Fiend...kidding!), The Cure, Bahauus, Crux Shadows, and the Sisters of Mercy (when I get Floodland, I get my official Goth card ;) ). Wonder what this all says about my personality. On second thought, I think I can guess. As for favorite collections, I started out with IHNMAIMS, and that is a good one, but my absolute favorite has to be _Love Ain't Nothing But Sex Misspelled_. The new ones, while good, lack some of the darkness of the earlier collections. What I would like to see is a collection of Ellison's more horror/vampire- themed stories, both early and late. These days, I find myself moving more towards horror erotica, like stories from Poppy Z. Brite. Ellison's stories in that area are good, but it would be nice if they could be collected in one big volume.

so no one wants to touch the boy and his dog query? maybe i'm not the only one who hasn't watched it yet. maybe i missed something, but although the Dude and his pal (John Goodman) were genius in the Big Lebowski, the rest of the movie bored me to tears. it totally pales compared to Fargo.

Wow! I'm usually just a lurker here but I gotta give Swinky kudos on great taste. You named several of my top 10 films as your faves. Evil Dead/Evil Dead 2 are both masterpieces. Brazil is great. The Big Lebowski was the best film of 1998 slightly ahead of Smoke Signals. Of course, considering I also think John Carpenter's The Thing is one of the great films of all-time, I don't think Harlan would care much for my taste in film. It's always been difficult for me to resolve how I can love Harlan's writing so much and yet think so very little of his taste in film. And I've never much cared for his screenwriting either. Weird. On another topic, have any comic book readers here noticed that Stan Lee has been dropping Harlan's name a lot in the weekly Stan's Soapbox in Marvel Comics? At least three mentions of HE overthe past 6 months or so. Is it too much to hope this is paving the way for HE to write some more comics? Or are he and Stan the Man just good friend? -chris

Hello again in response to what movies do other HE fans like. I really Like Cohen brothers films. The big Lebowski was just about as good as the earlier ones. I also am a great fan of Evil Dead 2/ Dead by dawn, Brazil, a Clockwork Orange, I liked Swingers and Reservoir Dogs, Casino, The suicide Kings is a good new one. Killing Zoe, and of course that wonderful B-movie Director with a big budget James Cameron. Sorry may the Titanic burn and I think HE should have remarketed Escapegoat on a postcard or something just for fun maybe capitalize of the Titanic hype anyway Happy Hannukah, Kwanza, Christmas,X-mas, or whatever y'all celebrate.

One more thing: what the hell time zone is this site refering to?

Nevermind. Obviously I've lost my mind. The posting is there now. I'm suuuuuuch a rookie at this computer/online thing. 'night.

Wow. Did I fail the test? I had successfully posted a message, which I saw several times as I perused the postings from the past few weeks (whew!). Then I went to another part of Webderland and when I returned to the Bulletin Board, my posting was gone. What gives?

thank you, Doc! "all kinds of movies"--of course. And picking them apart is highly gratifying. guess i just feel like really talking movies, in contrast to what i do all day..."no, i'm sorry, i don't have Blade right now...no, none are due tonight...no, i can't hold one for you... no, i haven't seen Bone Daddy and i have no idea if it's any good..."--just kill me. anyway, i've never watched A Boy and His Dog, and i could, however, i've been avoiding really disturbing stuff for a while and i wonder if anyone has feedback about it before i bring it home. merry christmas all...

WYLIE> Welcome aboard! I thik you'll agree that we like all kindsa movies, especially those we can bitch about for any reason (I'm kidding -- why are you looking at me like THAT?!?). SCOTT> What do you expect from a guy living in a town where Jerry Springer used to be mayor? One gathers from the mug's syntax, spelling and punctuation that he just don't get it! But what the heck, it's Christmas: Stick around, Paul, maybe we can get you the help you need. Cheers and Bah-Humbug, Doc

Here goes, and I'll try to be short, to the point, etc., and, hopefully, not too nasty about esteemed litterchur critic Paul Blue: "I allready readed you're post and i do'nt know, but may be your right. hank semite shelf Harlan huh?" This reply has been sponsored by the ADOPS (Americans for the Death of Punctuation and Spelling). Anyhows: I was skimming through the index to a Kubrick biography and came across a few references to Ellison and fellow Alabaman Gus Hasford. Kubrick, it seems, was attempting to have his way, financially and artistically, with Hasford, and Hasford, having spoken to Ellison about the matter, was given the very special name of Ellison's lawyer; Hasford's dropping of said name to Kubrick inspired the Wacky One to give Hasford everything that he wanted. If only Jim Thompson had Ellison's lawyer, right?

Greetings. I'm new. Wondering how far back I'll have to read to catch up. Nice to have vicarious contact with other fans, as I'm the only one I know personally. I manage a video store. My favorite collections are Strange Wine and Angry Candy. I wonder what kind of movies other HE fans like...

Harlans writing style has suffered greatly as of late im afraid. I looked around slippage recently and was not overtly stunned by anything written in these pages. "Myphisto In Onyx" was very nice but I allready read the damn thing. Ellison is a wonderfull talker and story teller in person, but is getting quite stale and dry on page. Hes never been a great writer because he cares more about entertaining the flock than enlightenment, which is not a sin, but is just a thought. But I have to admit I love the guy anyway. Loved his appearances on Politically Incorrect. The guy is one tough cookie, but I do notice he is lightening up a bit, which is good and bad at the same time. He also has given up on fighting the right on any issue. He mainly stays at home or goes out and signs books. What happened to the political Harlan? We need his voice more than ever so dont go away just yet Mr. E?? I notice Ellison has never mentioned writer Henry Miller in print? One of our great poetic minds and Ellison is mute. No hank was no anti-semite dear Harlan so put that long knive back in its sheave. But as ive said I do still love ole Harlan..Cant cha tell?? lol..Peace to all..Rock on.

Don't wanna get outta here without I mention The Cramps -- Stay sick! Turn blue!

BARNEY> What does being a bit younger than you have to do with anything? If you're trying to peg me (no "dinky/bum" relation, there), I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disappoint you: I like just about anything, style-wise. Gregorian chants, Mozart, Wagner, Prokofiev, Jolson, Durante, Joplin (Scott *and* Janis), Gershwin, Ellington, Porter, Rodgers and Hart, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, oh drea god the list doesn't *END*! Hank Williams, Sr., Bob Wills, Bill Hailey, Buddy Holly, Buck Owens, Dwight Yoakum, Beatles, Stones, Who, Band, Django Rheinhart, Stephan Grappelli, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson -- especially the Outlaws/Red-Headed Stranger years -- Ratt, Sex Pistols,... The list (like the beat) goes on. I'm not big on Chicago, but I do get into Queen, AND Black Sabbath, AND Motorhead, AND David Bowie, AND Nine Inch Nails, etc., etc. So what does that say about me? Pick a musical style or genre -- I can probably come up with some preference. Even Rap -- Will Smith, back when he was part of the DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince thing, as well as recent work. Then of course, there's R&B, Soul, Blues (I was in Austin when Stevie Ray died, and the whole city wept; caught Buddy Guy at Antone's shortly after, and was THAT a show?). In your corner now, hot-shot. Love, Doc

I was trying to come up with something long and drawn out. But I'm sick, so I'll just throw in my literal two cents into this one.*********You know the world has gone to hell when the Third Right starts boycotting Pat Boone. ---Peter

Barney** One more thing: the bums haven't lived in Chicago for over 20 years. Happy Holidays.

whoa!! I had no idea you could psychoanalyze and pidgeon-hole people by the music they listen to.. I'm in trouble now.... All those LOUD boom-box cars going by the house are making me psychotic.. ;-) ... Welcome to the Webheads swinky! And thanks for remembering me Finder.. Barney - didn't know you needed a reason for knee-jerking. Sheeesh. That takes all the fun out of it. And Keegan - good to see ya again. :-) Ummm - that's all.

Barney** Being a life-long Chicago-guy (the city not the group) all I can say to your remarks about the group is; right-on bro! The first LP when they were known as the Chicago Transit Authority had some edge to it and their big, ballsy, brass-attack was something new to rock at the time. All of the stuff after that intial offering, forgetaboutit.

***Finder*** Yeah, I just dumped on the band Chicago but it's personal. I think the reason they bubbled up from my subconscious has to do with all the free speech talk here of late. When I was a teenager I had a next door neighbor/friend named Lori who thought the sun rose and set on that band. I believe she was a card carrying member of the Robert Lamb [I think that's his name] fan club. Now you folks may love, hate, or have no feelings whatsoever about this group and if your under the age of 30 it's entirely possible you've never heard of them. All you need to know is that they were pre-fusion jazz or jazz-wannabe crossover artists. And they were all over AM and FM for 3-4 years in the 1970's. If pressed to the wall I will admit that they were all competent musicians and that there are three or four good tracks on the first 2 albums. The point [for the sake of this anecdote] is that they were vanilla and NON-threatening in the extreme. Only the Carpenters and Bread could compete in the category of safe-listening-for-impressionable-young-girls. But they somehow managed to scare the hell out of Lori's parents, who were GOD FEARING Pentecostal Presbyterians who didn't go in for any of this rock star idolatry stuff. So, after a few years of browbeating they wore here down, and one night Lori and her parents went out to the burning barrel they had in their back yard [very rural place] and after making Lori pray to God for forgiveness for questioning their judgement, made her burn all of her Chicago records and posters. I watched this little scene from my bedroom window while listening to Black Sabbath's "Master of Reality" album. I'd like to say I did something dramatic like laughed or cried or threw up but I knew Lori's parents to well for this to have suprised me. After all, they had kicked me out of their living room countless times. Once, for doing Bill Cosby's "Noah" routine and another time for reading a couple of paragraphs of "Paingod" within earshot. A few years later they moved to Texas and the last I heard she was still living at home and working at a K-Mart. So, if we ever meet in this life and you wonder where some of my knee-jerk reactions come from, well, it wasn't all copied out of one of Harlan's books. Have a Merry Christmas everybody.

hello I am a longtime purveyor of this Bulletin Board but have not yet left a message so I thought I's try it out. First I would like to cheesily thank all of you for your Love of HE and his work. I also have a question (maybe stupid) but I wondered If anyone Knew when the Human Operators adaptation for Outer Limits was going to be aired?. Also If you guys want some good Music I think a little Pink Floyd , a little Rolling Stones, some Social Distortion, Johnny Cash , Willie Nelson, Emmy Lou Harris, U2, then end it up with some Beethoven's 9th(Maybe just my Clockwork Orange fix getting a little low) and then wome Wagner, and Tchaikovsky. There ya go that sounds good and If Mr Ellison ever sees these thankyou for the hours of enjoyment.

BARNEY - You didn't just insinuate Chicago was a band of ill-renown, did you? OH, THE HUMANITY! How could you disrespect one of the premiere pop-brass conglomerates of the seventies that, through a stellar chrysalis in the eighties, became the number one schlock FM ballad band? Why, their music is every bit as nifty-keen as anything Genesis did after Peter Gabriel ran screaming following "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", and the entire collected works of Barry Manilow. (My tongue would leap out of my mouth if not so firmly planted in my cheek...) I'm with Keegan on this one - Miles, 'Trane, Duke (though I'll still take Billy Joel if thrown at me - you can take the boy out of New York, but...) KEEGAN & SUE - Welcome back! Always good to see familiar posters at the holidays! ALL - I hope the season brings all manner of wonderfulness and delight, merriment and mirth. Me, I'm off to make a holiday cheesecake or two in between packing for an early January move (another witness protection cover blown...when, oh when will the running stop?) Peace! --Finder

Though, Doc, I do dig Pink Floyd. That's my fantasy job: being a chick singer backing up Pink Floyd. That's neither here nor there though, so (SHUTUP!) shuttin' up!

Doc and Barney: both of you scare me. Then again, I'm a devotee and practitioner of Jazz music---what one young comrade I know once referred to as "geriatric music". Oh, well...... Read that story last night. Harlan has a beauty to his writing as well as an edge....but that's getting sappy so I'll shut up. L'chaim!

**** Hi Sue! Hi Keegan! Old listers never die!!! **** %%%% DOC %%% Too Much Information Doc! With the exception of Floyd your taste in music explains a lot. If it weren't for the fact that I know you like Harlan and Firesign Theatre I would find that list frightening beyond comprehension. I wish I could take credit for "dinky in the bum" which cracks me up [no pun intended] but I have a friend who works rehab with teenage sex offenders who coughed up that phrase one night when we were talking about Pete Townsend and various productions of "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia". [wrongheaded production, I might add] All I can say in his defense is that his job sort of requires that he take the notion of "personally well adjusted" to a very high level so when he said this phrase it was kind of like hearing Martha Stewart sing Fugees/ODB/Master P tunes. Funny as hell. I, of course, have no defense. And, by the way, Doc, since I believe you are younger than me, shouldn't you have been listening to Elvis Costello, The Clash, and Dead Kennedy's? What up, homey? If you counter with Queen and Chicago I'm outta here...

Hey All- Just a note that The Crow anthology is out in trade hb. I only mention it as the trade does NOT include HE's most recent short story, which IS included in the ltd. ed. for $225. Nonetheless, the other stories look decent and interesting, and, hell, I bought it. I already rec'd my copy of "Objects of Desire..." from Dang. Visions. Merry Crimble. Charlie

And while we're on Harlan's Homo Hate Parade. how is it that no one's mentioned, "A Path Through the Darkness?"

OTTO> I define mediocrity as: that which neither helps nor hinders. Sort of like this entire flipping "discussion." My final (oh, please, dear God) comment is in defense of verisimilitude. PLENTY of people think such crude, ugly thoughts, day in and day out. As it is such a large portion of the population, that might explain why so many of them turn up in Harlan's work. The Ellisons have never treated me with anything other than courtesy and kindness and generosity: smear them at your peril, they are my friends. As for academia, can't we all just degree to dis-degree? BARNEY> I'll have you know that *I* listened to plenty of KISS when I was a kid, even once in a (great) while these days. There was no escaping K.C. and the etcetera, who were *far* less abrasive than (ugh!) the Bay City Rollers. So how is exposure to such-like a preventative to queerdom? I also happen to like the music of The Black Crows, Queensryche, Bon Jovi, Pink Floyd, etc., and like that. You needn't concern yourself with the safety of your bum when in proximity to my dinky (which euphemism I find rather insulting, if not invasive -- stop watching me in the shower, you masher.)-- cheers, Doc

Hey, Sue! Thanks for relaying my greetings, but hey! I actually have a minnit so I thought I'd tag in and do it myself: GREETINGS ALL! Sorry about the last snivelly post I made---I was blown away by the story and lashed out. Really, it got to me. Been teaching rural white kids about Chanukah and Harlan's "explanation" of the miracle lept vividly to mind. Ain't fictional logic a grand thing. Really, I know the story is actually about more than the "miracle", but, man--what an imaginative way to explain it. Sounds plausible and made me believe. I think I'll go re-read it, even though the holiday's tecnically over. (I'm talking about "Go Toward the Light" from the January 1996 issue of FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION. It's just been a particular favorite.....a "fun" story in some ways.)

TO ALL: If you are interested in seeing Harlan appear on The Late, Late Show with Tom Snyder send e-mail to: latelateshow@cbs.com-------------------------------- Last week, I was speaking to Susan Ellison on an unrelated matter, when she mentioned that Harlan's appearence on the January 4th broadcast of Politically Incorrect has been moved to January 5th. I recommend taping both nights. Best, Shane

**PETER** you haven't _really_ gotten into the OlFogeyTimeWarp until you are trying to figure out why your kids are older than you are.. **BARNEY** If you were sure HE would reach out and touch someone (throttle them?) from the grave, whatever made you think I could be so easily disposed of..??? ~giggle~ I'm not 'quite' dead yet.. Just REALLY busy.. I'm turning into a jet-setter of sorts, now that I have discovered that people will PAY for me to come, hang out, and have FUN.. And all I hafta do is make a Web Page for them later.. WOW!! Go figure!! What a wonderful way to fill the "idle months" when I can't ride the bike.. ;-) .. And the price is in my range - FREE.. Just got back from my second LA trip.. :-) .. Are airplanes _supposed_ to make 'grunchy-grindy' noises in the air?? And what is so "weird" about Venice Beach?? Answers to these, and other mysteries of the universe, will be posted as they become known.. **ALL** I am relaying Holiday Greetings, and well wishing (what DO wells wish for?) from Keegan, and Doc, who seem to be as busy as I am - each in their own ditinctive way.. :-) .. And keep me posted on the details of these Con thingies - sooner or later, I WILL make one. (no fair giving hints, or warnings Barney).. Peace and Happiness to all (and don't feel you have to limit it to this particular seasonal time frame)..

Wow. I'd been so wrapped up in my own little world, with finals and everything, that I hadn't realized how late in the month it actually was. My brain was still functioning as if it were still the beginning of December. More to the point, I hadn't realized how late in the year it was. Sheesh. Its weird how we get so caught up in life that things such as the date and peoples birthdays and holidays just seem to dissappear in the periphery. I have no real point with this, its just that no one has posted for a few days so I thought I'd add my two cents worth of fluff. ---Peter (who's missing a party right now)

Peter- took the words right out of my mouth. I agree that it is mostly the individual, but the real power lies, not in the words, but how they are used. Ever listen to two AfAmericans call each other "nigger"? But if Whity over there uses that term, it's offensive. Now, that last sentence may not make sense save in my mind, but there you go anyway. Glad to hear your finals are over- mine too. Just taking a break from packing up my stuff to leave Vincennes University and go to Indiana University/Purdue University in Indianapolis...a real school in a real city, *my* city, too. ::breathes a sigh of relief:: Sue & Finder- hello! It's been quite a while. Glad to see you're alive and kicking. Barney- I finished _1984_ yesterday. Now I also see what HE was referring to when he talked about Room 101 in one of his essays...reading the actual description gave me chills. And I make it a point never to watch movies based on books, or read books based on movies. The new version is *never* as good as the original.

Hmmm. I thought that Terry Gilliam had actually set out to show how boring a bureacracy was (succeeding beyond his wildest dreams, mind you). While I felt the movie (and the one I saw did not have a happy ending) was artfully directed with much of Gilliam's cartoon quirkiness lining each frame, I also cannot watch the damn thing in one sitting. I have to stop every fifteen minutes to splash water over my eyes to keep from falling asleep. Maybe its just me, but Gilliam seesm to have a hard time reeling in (pun intended)his imagination. Especially when the movie starts to get too long. Well, as my info above this message shows, I'm going home for winter break. So I probably won't be checking in here as often as I was. maybe only once a day (as opposed to four or five times a day between classes). ---Peter

***Hey Sue! *** I was going to mention that I'd heard from you so the list old-timers would know you were still kicking but you up and spoke up by your lonesome. You don't think a pesky little thing like death could stop Harlan from answering his critics, do you? I don't. ***XANADU*** I'm not often reduced to "what he said!' but, yep, what he said! And while speech does often have real world consequences, other than O.W. Holmes' 'fire in a crowded theatre" litmus test, one should never attempt to restrict speech because of potential consequences. ***Nicole*** - glad you got the book. Check out Terry Gilliam's brilliant movie "Brazil" to see the same message filtered thru the conscience of another genius. You want the long version. If it has a happy ending you got the bastardized short version. Avoid the 1980 something movie version of "1984". It's way to literal and lifeless. The cinematic equivalent of boiled food. Hope you and everybody else are doing well. Peace out.

Ummm - I don't get it... I am vastly unclear how PC terminology differs from bigotry. It makes the SAME distinctions by groups. So it's *better* because it uses "nice" terms!?!?!? There seems to be a logical flaw here... And an acedemic word to the wise seems to be in order - most Lit types wait for the author do die before they start with the deconstruction, and personal assesments of the author.. Living authors are so mouthy and messy about it all.. Occasionally sue - and win.. Good Golly Miss Molly - talk about your basic tempest in a teacup.. If you wanna know what HE meant by that - ASK him.. Haven't heard of HE failing to have an answer for ANY question. Of course, you might not *like* the answer.. ;-) .. ***BIG HUG*** to all the regulars.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

So, I only have web access at work. A significant chunk of my time during any giving week is spent on hold. While on hold, I do email, or look at the web, or work on something to post here. Finished that last post during lunch. Went back later in the day to see if it actually went through - I posted just after HE. OH MAN! Well, that is what I get for being terminally mouthy and overly gifted with opinions - not to mention slow!

Yay!! I'm done with chemistry. All I've got to do now is some quick last minute revisions on my latest story and turn it into my creative writing professor and I'm done for the semester. (breathing a sigh of relief) Of course I just sold back my chemistry book and used the money to buy Pink Floyd's DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. I felt it was a fair trade since all my study sessions were spent listening to THE WALL. As for the power of words. Yeah, words do have power to influence. But unless a person's aim was to influence, we cannot blame him or his words for any damage they may have provoked. A person calling "fire" in a crowded theater is obviously trying to influnece, so he should be culpable for his actions. But a person writing a story in the viewpoint of a hate monger for the purpose of exploring what makes a hate monger hate, should not be held accountable for the influence it has on the sheep minded. If anything, the education system of the society should be held accountable before the writer. okay. I'll step off my soapbox now. ---Peter (hit bottom and climbing back up)

RICK - Please pass thanks along to HE for taking the time from his other endeavors to swipe his sword through our collective Gordian knot. XANADU - Will wonders never cease? Hello, old friend, and welcome. And would it be me if I didn't argue at you? You writ: "No amount of words will cause someone to pick up a gun and shoot another. Or hate another. Or molest another. Or offend another. Those are the actions of a single individual. The responsibility is theirs alone." I take no umbrage with the matter of personal responsibility; we are all ultimately responsible for what we do and say. But you can't simply disallow the power of words to sway the course of the individual - that's far too sweeping. Many of the things we hear every day are designed to shape our opinions, our emotions, our desires. If this wasn't true, Nike wouldn't have those spiffy ads during the Super Bowl for a princely sum, and there wouldn't be a team of speechwriters and spin doctors working inside the Washington Beltway. People in the majority are followers, and they are guided by what they are told and what they read. To ignore the power words have over them is to turn a blind eye to the potential abuse of that power by individuals who know it, understand it and use it, and the subsequent consequences of that abuse. So I would have to disagree: wielded by a charismatic individual or in a psychologically penetrating way, words will indeed cause someone to pick up a gun and shoot another who might otherwise not have. Yes, individuals are responsible for what they do - but I think hand-in-hand with that is a responsibility to not just hear and accept what they're being told, but to understand it, to question it, to take nothing for granted. Or, to paraphrase something Springsteen once said to a packed house, blind faith in anything will get you killed. Whoa - I'm having Binghamton flashbacks - gotta fly! Finder

Greetings, one and all - as you can see by the byline, I am new to this board. (Meaning only that I haven't posted here before - I have lurked, literally, for years.) DOC - you once referred to me as KEEPER (I am FINDER's writing partner and the second half of the partnership that presented HE with a sixpack of Ideas, and JMS with a box of Spare Time.) BARNEY - Thank you for your kind enthusiasm about our little projects... The name Xanadu is not from the movie starring ONJ, rather, the poem by Coleridge. Introductions aside, I come to the matter of my de-lurking. I once wrote a brief bit on the dangers of Political Correctness. The actual bit is irrelevant, but the closing argument is still valid (in it I make reference to Orwell's _1984_): PC, in the guise of "protecting" us, is similarly reducing our vocabulary... [It attempts to] eliminate words and concepts, in the vain hope that this will somehow eliminate the thought. This is both dangerous and futile. We must have the ability to differentiate the genuinely evil act from the reference to it. If we do not have the vocabulary, we cannot remember history, and as Santayana wrote, "we are doomed to repeat it." I closed with the following line: The answer is to strongly oppose the forces of PC, to resist the idea that we can "protect" people by watching what we say. Don't just avoid using PC in your own life, but we must actively oppose it all around us. Challenge the casual use of a PC concept, argue against its merits, fight the good fight and don't let the bastards get you down... Based on that closing, I am compelled to post here: SHAZ - Your arguments and points are PC. You suggest that an author must have some responsibility for what they write, lest they inadvertantly support a notion that is offensive. I would argue that such a responsibility belongs to the reader. Let us assume for a moment that your analysis is complete and dead-on accurate. So what? One, they are all from works of fiction, though you make a passing reference to an essay. It's fiction. It ain't true stuff. Sometimes characters use vocabulary and act in a manner that is repugnant to both the author and the reader (And you know what? They sometimes don't even get punished for it! Re: Thomas Harris, _The Silence of the Lambs_, Dr. Lector) You cannot extrapolate from any character what the author of the work believes, just as you can't extrapolate from a performance what an actor really believes. It's fiction. Two, they are in fact, just words. They have no power in the real world that we don't give them. None. They are a mutually agreed on representation of of thoughts and ideas. No amount of words will cause someone to pick up a gun and shoot another. Or hate another. Or molest another. Or offend another. Those are the actions of a single individual. The responsibility is theirs alone. And finally, I would hesitate to paint any individual with such a broad brush as "homophobe", or "anti-semite", or "racist", because in the end, the only value of such a depiction is to bring into question the person's character. And to cause you to question everything that the person says, without regard to their individual merit. It is an unfortunately effective tool at silencing the opposition by shouting them down. Rarely, are people so neatly and objectively codified. -Xanadu

Wow. Didn't think Harlan would actually respond. Rick, please tell him I said thanks for clarifying that story and putting Shaz in his/her place.

MAGGIE -- I agree with your sentiments, but I'm not so sure about the very last part of your line of reasoning. I've met a couple of bigots in my time who were very offended to be so identified. They're of the "Some of my best friends are . . ." school. This is, I believe, especially prevalent in the subject at hand -- that of homophobia. My personal favorite was a young man who shouted rhetoric for half an hour on the evils of homosexuality, and then took the time to explain that he was not homophobic, he was merely backing up scripture. Not that I think HE falls into this category, but it's something to keep in mind . . .

When I was a little girl, there was a girl my age who was mentally disabled. When I asked my mother about her, my mother told me that people were all different and that being different was a good thing. Now, I lived in a neighborhood so homogeneous, that the reflected glow off our bodies from that first venture outside wearing shorts in the spring, was a visibility hazard for the local F-16 pilots. When I was about 19, I was watching some news program on TV with my mother. Imagine my surprise when I heard my mother start talking about the laziness, etc, of "them." I was astonished and apalled to learn that my mother was such a world class bigot! I had taken her at her word, and there had never been the opportunity to see her words and deeds conflict. Every single second of every single day of our lives is processed through a filter comprised of all our past experiences. The impression that you have of the story that I just told, is based on your life, and the choices that you have made. Shaz, you are, by your own statement, used to living in an environment rife with bigotry. I have read as much of the writings of HE as I could get my hands on (my library is extremely accomplished at interlibrary loans), and I cannot imagine that HE could or would be homophobic (taking as a given that not wanting to be homosexual, does not mean that one is thereby homophobic). Perhaps you are still overcompensating for the environment where you were raised. Really, I couldn't say, because I know very little about you. Besides, although analyzing and deconstructing a literary work can be entertaining, this whole dissection of the attitudes of HE is pointless (because neither you nor have ever, nor are ever, likely to know the man well enough to say), and about as useful as dissecting the man himself - it might help you with anatomy, but it won't teach you a damn thing about that magic he makes with his trusty Olympia. I must admit that I sometimes wonder if I have subconsciously picked up some of mother's bigotry. Perhaps I did. I don't think so, and I don't want it to be true, but how can I ever be truly certain? Take a deep breath Shaz, and consider that people who (unlike you or I) know HE well, have vehemently denied that HE is homophobic. Who are any of us to make definitive statements about the attitudes of people we do not know?! If I were to analyze your writings on this bulletin board Shaz, I could come up with my own theories about what you were writing and why, but only you, and the people who know you, would really know if I was right or wrong. You are as welcome to your opinion as anybody else, but please, leave off inflicting this particular one on us. I am content to take the word of people who have actually met HE, over the overly deconstructed writings of someone who has not. The really funny thing is that I would guess, from what I've read by and about HE, that being called a bigot will bother HE. Somehow, I doubt that it would if he truly was one.

Academic Masturbation? Jeeze, I don't know if I'm going to be able to look at my writing professor and keep a straight face. But there is an important lesson to be learned here. If you go into a story looking for something to offend you, you'll most likely find it. Same thing as if you go into a piece of fiction looking for any kind of symbolism or deeper meaning. you can usually piece together tidbits of information to give you that meaning. Hell, I once wrote a paper that proved that grendel's mother represented how men feared the potential of women. Did I believe it? No. But as I said, you can find text that will prove anything you want. Shit, if I had a dime for everytime one of my High School english teachers tried to shove some new piece of Christ imagery down my throat I could retire. "See, his name was Jim Casey. Jim Casey, JC, Jesus Christ. See? See?" Back to chemistry ---Peter (spiraling deeper, deeper, into the pit of a thousand screams)

Sorry for the double post, will clean it up tonight. Harlan wanted me to pass on to anyone who remains interested in his "homophobia" that his most obvious and personal statement on homophobia can be found in his story "Darkness on the Face of the Deep" in SLIPPAGE. He also says this sort of narrow-minded deconstructionism and second-guessing is the Great Curse of the Internet. Of all the works out there, his are among the ones MOST approachable by direct interpretation. As HE says: "I'm Edgar Allen Poe, not James Joyce. There are no secrets here. ***THE ONLY HIDDEN PASSAGES ARE THE ONES IN MY HOUSE!***"

AS FOR "THE MAN WHO ROWED CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS ASHORE": I killed the cat because I bloody well FELT like it. Nothing irresponsible about it. I hate cats, and I killed the little fucker on purpose. Ain't that the ESSENCE of responsibility? And that's the *POINT* of the story. .......... Levendis represents the joy of life. But Levendis works for the unconcerned universe. He isn't god, or God, or even GOD. He isn't *a* god, and he isn't me(and Ms. Shaz, it's time you grew up and understood that just because an author uses the "omnipotent author viewpoint" doesn't mean everything he writes is a representation of himself or his attitudes...stop being so childish). I am an Atheist, and I believe that there is no such thing as Luck or Predestination or God's Watchful Eye. "Leave them to Heaven" is sophomoric bullshit. The universe is neither benign nor malign. It doesn't even know we're here. And so, on one day the universe throws together two people who may or may not fall in love, another day it does something "good" like upping everyone's IQ, and the next it does something "bad" like lowering everyone's IQ. It is capricious, because it's an idot. It is looking the other way. And only people like Shaz are mad enough to find order and deep symbolism in it. This is FICTION, folks. Dead cats and all.

AS FOR "THE MAN WHO ROWED CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS ASHORE" -- I killed the cat because I bloody well FELT like it. Nothing irresponsible about it. I hate cats, and I killed the little fucker on purpose. Ain't that the ESSENCE of responsibility? And that's the *POINT* of the story. ----------- Levendis represents the joy of life. But Levendis works for the unconcerned universe. He isn't god, or God, or even GOD. He isn't *a* god, and he isn't me(and Ms. Shaz, it's time you grew up and understood that just because an author uses the "omnipotent author viewpoint" doesn't mean everything he writes is a representation of himself or his attitudes...stop being so childish). I am an Atheist, and I believe that there is no such thing as Luck or Predestination or God's Watchful Eye. "Leave them to Heaven" is sophomoric bullshit. The universe is neither benign nor malign. It doesn't even know we're here. And so, on one day the universe throws together two people who may or may not fall in love, another day it does something "good" like upping everyone's IQ, and the next it does something "bad" like lowering everyone's IQ. It is capricious, because it's an idot. It is looking the other way. And only people like Shaz are mad enough to find order and deep symbolism in it. This is FICTION, folks. Dead cats and all.

This is silly. You're all indulging in too much deconstructionist bullshit. Ms. Shaz: I don't want to insult you, because apparently you've been a regular contributor to this website and everyone seems to treat you with respect, so you clearly aren't a dummy... but all this homophobia supposition is insipid. I am not homophobic. I'll not get into credentials, but I've marched with homosexual and lesbian pals of mine in Gay Rights Parades. At the moment I find this ugly suggestion particularly distressing and offensive because I'm still mourning the loss of my friend, Roddy McDowall, who was -- as you may have heard -- a gentleman of the highest quality, and coincidentally, gay. Gays have been in my employ for the past thirty years. Aw, shit...I won't even dignify this crap. ........ Stop reading so much sub-text into stories. You are clearly a very young, and provincial, person. I suppose because I used the phrase "spick band" in a story, that makes me anti-Latino. I've had characters use the words bitch and kike and nigger and retard. Hell, the story "Knox" has a litany of such words. If it makes you feel knowledgeable to keep confusing the fiction with the author, little girl, then just boogie on, 5-by-5. But don't expect me to pay any serious attention to your mumblings, because you're just silly. I'd appreciate it if folks would go back to discussing things that might shed some light, rather than indulging meanspirited suppositions like this, that exist in the darkness of too much academic masturbation. Or does that make me Onanist?

Nicole::: I thank ya for your sympathy to my plight, and offer out my own. College would be great if it weren't for the finals. Although I'd be happier taking history and english classes than chem and physics, I can only keep lying to myself that an engineering degree is in my best interest. Most people fall back on teaching, I'm going to fall back on engineering if writing only offers me intrinsic rewards. Ahhh, back to the chemical grind. I just have to keep telling myself "it'll be over in twenty-four hours" oh well. ---Peter (resuming his slow descent into insanity.)

All right, I deserved some of that, but I despise being patronized. First of all, I find it funny that you don't have the time to wade through all the hate directed at you (much of it cleverly disguised, at least in my opinion, as well-formulated arguments against your points), but you catch a throwaway comment, a nothing at the end of a post, which I must confess was a bit mean-spirited and which I regretted immediately after posting, but what's a hot-headed German to do? Seriously considering your response, though, I would have to say that no, you're not really a person. No, really. I don't know you; I've never met you in my life. All I know about you are some tidbits that you've thrown into the soup, and a limited amount of your views on about three subjects. You're not really three-dimensional to me; you're merely a mass of verbiage. As I am to you, doubtless. We are limited here in what we show of ourselves. This is not a place to carve yourself in fully glory on the internet, it is a place to discuss Harlan Ellison and related topics. If we become people along the way, well and good. But I'm not too worse off than you, I think, lumping most of the arguments under the headings of personal attacks, and deciding that if any valid points were made, they are too few and too poorly vocalized to be responded to. Those are people, too, you know.

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention. Remember, first and foremost: IT'S ONLY A STORY, DAMNIT! IT'S ENTERTAINMENT! IT'S **FICTION***!!! ::pants:: okay, there you go....

Shaz, I really am not fit to comment on many of the works you mantioned, but I will give my opinion on IHNMAIMS, that being my favorite short story of all time. I did not see anything homophobic in HE's treatment of Benny, save that I was *extremely* confused that he only went after Ellen. I mean, if the men had already fought him off, or he went after both (I know he was an animalistic character, but even animals can display homosexual behaviors now and again) that would be fine. I think mentioning the size of his dick as countering his homosexuality simply meant that his larger dick would mean any woman would want him. Peter, my sympathies with you on finals. I just found out that I have to re-schedule my U.S Gov't final so I can keep a photo shoot appointment at the cemetary with a young model I know. Best of luck to you. Barney- I got 1984 today. Great book, thanks for recomending it.

Okay...read the "essay" (hey, I can use those kewl quote marks, too! Isn't sarcasm fun?) by Shaz. However, my browser seems to be malfunctioning - the part where the context in which the quotes were irresponsible, the overall impact of those words in relation to the works and times they appeared in, and the conclusions Shaz draws about Ellison's character all seem to be missing. Did anyone else get this part, or did we have another server crash in the middle of the posting? ................ REGARDLESS, here is what I come across as accusations of Shaz's in Ellison's entire body of work: (1) HE used the word "fag" as an epithet three times and lists it as a negative trait twice in pieces over three decades old. (2) Homosexuality is presented as a horror in PUNKY. (3) In ZOMBIE (wasn't this a collaboration?), a man is thought to be a petty tyrant because he is a latent homosexual. I won't address the quote from "I HAVE NO MOUTH..." as it relies on a VERY questionable interpretation of the author's meaning. ............... Shaz's only point seems to be that these usages tend to inure us to the mistreatment of homosexuals and that by making us comfortable with negative treatment they invite prejudice, intolerance, and abuse. Or, as Alexander Pope put it: "Vice is a monster of such frightful mein, as to be pitied needs but to be seen. And yet, seen to oft, familiar with its face; we first endure, then pity, then embrace." Fair enough, but DOES HER CLAIM HOLD WATER? DOES THIS DOG HUNT? ................... My points against this have already been adequately stated - I will sum them up by stating yet again that these are pebbles thrown in a maelstrom and that the overall tone of Ellison's body of work is both FOR personal culpability and responsibility and AGAINST mistreatment of any minority or anyone who is "different". Once again, I do not see where Shaz has demonstrated that Harlan is homophobic or even advocates any sort of mistreatment of homosexuals. The comments in MEMOS are part of a true and personal memoir, and to ask Ellison to edit those recollections would be as great an injustice as any Shaz imagines Ellison inflicts upon the homosexual community. Also, these and the other quotes are neither of a horrible insensitivity nor a saintly enlightenment when presented in the context of their times. While a claim of irresponsibility MIGHT hold water were Harlan to "update" these pieces for a future publication, it doesn't hold even one drop, not even one molecule, of H2O as it stands. MY conclusion is that to rail against a man for a few sentences he wrote in the sixties AND in HIS twenties, AND to draw a conclusion about his responsibility and the tone of his work based on this requires something special but unfortunately not that uncommon. It requires deliberate ignorance of the times in which the work was written, the tone and content of concurrent works by other authors, and the past and present body of work of the author. Shaz's conclusion also strikes me as a draconian judgement of the type that would make Thomas de Torquemada choke on his sherry. ..... IN SHORT - Harlan is not to be judged irresponsible because he neglected to include the persecution of homosexuals in the list of injustices he railed against fervently and constantly in the sixties. We may wonder what good he might have accomplished had he worked as fiercely and tirelessly against the oppression of homosexuals as he did against the oppression of women and african americans. But it is not our place, then or now, to question which battles an author or a human being chooses or what "greater of two goods" they decide upon. I'm going to let Harlan respond to this, but I'm certain he will decry this kind of thinking as being as "bone-stick stupid" as criticizing him for the amount of money his "15 minute conversations" raised for charity.

..."envelope WAS to be found"... Hi Peter.

*** Hey SHAZ *** I'm all confused about this homophobia stuff. Perhaps you could enlighten me. First of all, can you take [what shall we call them this week?] "same sex oriented" people to dinner and find them jobs and let them sleep in your home and lend them money and buy their books and still be a homophobe? And if you can do all of those things - and more - with "same sex oriented people" and still find the prospect (if you are a guy) of having a dinky in the bum a little, shall we say, off-putting, does this make you a bad person? I will go just a little bit further and suggest that assigning limits to how much "cultural diversity" I care to embrace does not make me bad or evil. Some people can choose to just tolerate what others enjoy. It isn't a crime. Yet. Regarding Harlan's use of terms like fag, well, for better or worse, I think some of that was plain old boundary pushing. If you read the letters between Hemingway and Max Perkins it's amazing to find out what kind of language [ie. pretty tame] Hemingway had to fight to have included. He lost quite a few of those battles by the way. By the sixties most of those battles had been sorted out and references to homosexuals and race relations were where the outside of the envelope were to be found. You may not like "fag" and my H.U.D. neighbors probably wouldn't care to much for "second story spic" but something like "same sex oriented couple" would have gotten laughed right off the page. Tell me, do the works of Philip Jose Farmer or Robert Heinlein upset you this much? How about the erotica of Anne Rice? Any problems with Grove Press reprints of the Pearl? The poetry of Ginsburg or the prose of Kerouac or Burroughs [not Edgar - although homophobes might have a field day there]. Howzabout nigger in Huck Finn? Confused in Amish Country ... Barney

I really need to edit when I'm flustered. Heated, unfocused writing is like riding a bicycle with your eyes closed. It may be fun, but you're going to crash a few times along the way.---Peter (my last correction post, I swear)

and that is "undue responsibility"... I need to start editing my posts when they get that long. sheesh...---Peter

I meant to put "intimate relationship" but my digression cobbled my thinking a bit. ---Peter

SHAZ: gotta agree with you this time - about the insults. Won't talk about the rest quite yet (but isn't "counter arguments" redundant?). So look, gang, please feel free to keep up the usual banter and back-and-forth, but when it comes to this debate let's be civil, okay? You don't have to play nice, but at least play fair...

Shaz::: Even if your arguments that Ellison's writings provide a true reflection of the man, and that he has a responsibility to society to "guide" them toward what is socially acceptable behavior by not expressing ideas that aren't socially acceptable. Even if that argument were to hold, you have yet to offer any evidence that would support it. You offer quotes from selections you picked out of the Essential Ellison. But those quotes come from stories and essays written between 1960 and 1970, when, as I said, NO ONE understood homosexuality. NO ONE. Its not like today when you could point to someone who gay bashes and call them a bigot. NO ONE understood it. It was taboo. As far as the rest of society was concerned, homosexuality was a dirty habit of dirty people. I'm not saying that it is, but that was the prevailing ideology of previous times. --------------------As for the idea that Ellison's writings condone such behavior because people just don't get it. Well. If you believe that people just don't get it, then try and do something about it. Try and make it so that people get it. Otherwise you are doing nothing but putting undo responsibility on Ellison's, and any other writer's shoulders. As DTS said, a writer not only uses what is within himself, but what he/she sees in society. A story is not a journalistic writing. It shouldn't be unbiased. It shouldn't be sanitized for your protection. It should have a point of view. It may not be a point of view you agree with. But it should have one.---------------------------------As for your narrow view of relationships. Jesus Christ Almighty! Do you live in the dark ages? Can't two people enjoy each other's company and carry on an intimate (not necessarily sexual, the two are mutually exclusive in the real world) without you judging them. Can't you just leave those two alone. And if you can't see what I'm saying here and how it relates to your narrow world view, then just stop reading.--------------------------As for your gripes about our arguments. I'm not even going to justify your statements by arguing with them. I'll just leave it at an old proverb; let he (or she) who is without sin, cast the first stone.--------------------- Now you can go on like this. I don't mind. I enjoy writing than anything and this just gets me warmed up to the real important work, but try to calm down. As for that connection you drew between Ellison's work and nazi treatment of homosexuals (And I did know that, they do teach that, no one is trying to sweep that horror under the carpet.) I'd get angry at your temerity if it weren't for the fact that you're arguments have started to become laughable in their extremity. I've got a chem final to study for ---Peter

Shaz: since you don't know Ellison personally, and since I don't know hime personally, it would be flat out ignorant -- no, make that stupid -- to assume anything about his personality via his writing. Especially if one tries to make assumptions using fictions he has written. After all, writers of fiction often mirror society, not just thier own thoughts and beliefs. And as far as using quotes from his nonfiction piece ("Memos From Purgatory"), I believe he wrote it (in a white heat -- very quickly) right after the experience. If you ask most persons of the male gender, and they are honest with you, most of them will tell you that when they were much younger -- and more ignorant -- and worried about maintaining a macho stance, insults toward guys you didn't like often were built around dumb epithets like fag, cocksucker, etc., etc (I know when I was ten or eleven, I hurled the fag epithet around a bit -- as an aside to all you men -- is it any wonder that some women would find oral sex off-putting after our gender has managed to use so many slang put-downs which revolve around the act?). Most of us grow up and out of that mentality. To hold us forever guilty for youthful ignorance only displays your own. Maybe (as I said in a post much earlier) you are a sensitive person, but this fixation of yours (and insistence that you, and only you, are right) goes a long way toward disproving that thought. Seek help, Shaz. Or, step back take a deep breath, and consider that -- in this instance -- you could actually be wrong. Either way, to accuse someone of a personal failing (without knowing them personally) is really reprehensible. Seasons greetings, DTS.

Otto: I just couldn't let THAT slip by. "A Shaz"???!!!! So now I've been reduced from an individual human being to a thing or a stereotype? Come now, are my ideas so threatening to other posters that they have to reduce me to a "thing"/"stereotype"/"Other" (like a fag, gook, nigger, etc.) as to avoid the implications (not about me personally, but about Ellison's work) of what I've argued? *shakes head sadly in disappointment* ---Shaz

First, let's look at the infamous scene in TMWRCCA. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ FOR THOSE OF YOU WANTING TO CONTEND THAT THE PROCEEDING HOMOSEXUAL/OLD MAID RELATIONSHIP WAS JUST "FRIENDSHIP": ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The text does not support that reading. The information we are given on the characters focuses around their ROMANTIC loneliness: __****"Kenneth Kulwin,...who had LIVED ALONE since...." (This focuses the reader's attention on his loneliness in the romance department. It doesn't say he had no friends, just that he LIVED ALONE, i.e. sans significant other)****__ __**** "Anne Gillen...who had been unable to find an escort to her senior prom and WHOSE SOCIAL LIFE HAD NOT IMPROVED...SINCE THE DEATH OF THAT HOPE" (This statement equates her "social life" with being ROMANTICALLY involved with a MAN...just because you didn't have a date to the prom -- and in her time it was UNHEARD OF to go with girl friends or alone -- doesn't mean you didn't have friends of the same (or even the other) gender...and it certainly doesn't mean you don't have good friends now. All we know, in fact, is that her "HOPE" of finding "Mr. Right" is dead.****__ So, these two romantically "hopeless" souls are thrown together by the "well-meaning" Levendis to "TAKE NOTICE OF EACH OTHER" (and we all know that in common American usage, "a man NOTICING a woman" or vice versa usually means in a sexually/romantically attracted way). Further, Levendis sets up "Kenny" to be the knight in shining armor coming to the rescue (i.e. giving her a lift to the gas station) of the damsel in distress (with flat tires). Add this to the fact that they "discover that their favorite movie was the 1945 ROMANCE [!] [And it is one SAPPY ROMANCE at that], the Enchanted Cottage." Thus, the CONVERTED Kenny (yeah he wasn't gay, he just hadn't found the right desperate woman) and the grateful Anne (RESCUED from life without a man, since a life without romance with a man is obviously a LACK OF SOCIAL LIFE!) ride off into the sunset. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ FOR THOSE OF YOU CLAIMING THIS CONVERSION IS "NATURAL" BECAUSE KENNY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TOTALLY HOMOSEXUAL: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ellison used the word "homosexual." Now the word "homosexual" means being sexually attracted only to members of the same gender, just as "heterosexual" means being attracted only to members of the opposite gender. "Bi-sexual" means attraction to both genders in whatever gradation (i.e. equally attracted to men and women; attracted more often to men, but finding attraction to women frequently occuring; mainly attracted to men, but finding attraction to a very few number of women; etc.). Now we all know what a stickler Ellison is for using proper nomenclature. If he had meant "bisexual," he would have written "bisexual." But he didn't -- he wrote "homosexual." ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ FOR THOSE OF YOU WANTING TO BELIEVE THAT THIS CONVERSION OF A HOMOSEXUAL TO "NORMAL" HETEROSEXUALITY WAS MERELY IN LEVENDIS' PERCEPTION: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In case you hadn't noticed, except for text within QUOTATION marks (i.e. dialogue), THIS STORY IS TOLD BY A NARRATOR, NOT LEVENDIS, THUS LEVENDIS IS ALWAYS REFERRED TO AS "he." __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ NOW LET'S LOOK AT HOMOPHOBIA IN OTHER WORK BY ELLISON... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Since it's a 35-year RETROSPECTIVE, I'm taking my sources from THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON to show the presence of homophobia throughout Ellison't work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (1) "Punky and the Yale Men," page 99: "Spade fag...of all the horrors...homosexuality is the most perverse." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (2) "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream," page 172: "He HAD been gay, and the machine had given him an organ fit for a horse." Implying gays have small dicks? (cheap attack on the masculinity of gays) or give him a big one and he'll turn straight? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (3) "The Tombs," page 307: "the schmuck...was simpering like a fag." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (4) "The Tombs," page 331: "...the fags, and the winos, and the junkies..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *IN "The Tombs," ELLISON ISN'T WRITING AS A NARRATOR, BUT WITH HIS OWN VOICE! IT'S AN (BIOGRAPHICAL) ESSAY, NOT FICTION!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (5) "The Song the Zombie Sang," page 451: "The stage manager was a thug. He recognized the type. [...]Latent homosexuality. Tyrant to everyone backstage except, perhaps, the chorus boys in the revivals of Romberg and Friml confections." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In "Punky" and "Zombie" Ellison uses homosexuality as another trait in a catalogue of negative traits. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's not a matter of being unPC, it's a matter of being responsible. Our society isn't developed enough to get that what he's presenting isn't a true generalization. They read it and think it's okay to feel that way. As Ellison said himself about his own readers (see "NOTE on' Attack at Dawn'" in Mind Fields) they "don't get it." And feeling that way and believing that feeling that way is o.k. (i.e. socially sanctioned) mostly leads to ACTING that way, in whatever degree of hostility (from making heterosexuality compulsory in the family or school setting through peer pressure -- resulting in a high percentage of suicides of teens who realize that they are gay; to torturing, crucifying, and murdering a young man in Wyoming (Matthew Shepard) because he wasn't heterosexual; TO THE NAZIS SENDING ALL KNOWN _HOMOSEXUALS_ TO THE GAS CHAMBERS ALONG WITH THE JEWS AND THE MENTALLY/PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED, A FACT LITTLE MENTIONED WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST.) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ***************************************************************************************************************************** And for those of you who intend on ignoring these arguments and all arguments of mine preceeding because I haven't responded to this or that point (no matter how idiosyncratic) you have posted in response: I have not read the Board since my last posting. One reason for this is that this is a very busy time of year for me. Another is that a lot of what I received as "refutations"/"counter arguments" of my points were not based on what I actually argued: many times posters responded to (1) what they THINK (and I use the term loosely) I said, (2) what they WANT TO THINK I said, or (3) what they WANT OTHERS TO THINK I said, as opposed to the actual arguments I put forth. This does not apply to ALL of the replies I received, but it does apply to a lot of them (including Rick's "counter arguments"). As for anyone who actually bothered to read my entire postings and respond to them without taking them out of context or misconstrueing my true meaning/intent, I'm sorry if I haven't addressed your arguments on the Board. There's such an immense volume of hate and trash to sort through, that I decided to stop addressing individual points as a gross waste of my time. ----Shaz *****************************************************************************************************************************

I tried to enter into the fray last week, but fortunately, the server is down. Otto: I agree with you about gut reactions. For me, the difference between good work and great work is the gut reaction. Re: Kenny and Anne, I was raised Mormon in Utah, and really, you don't get more obsessed with the idea that a woman without a man is pointless (in all fairness, I would just like to add that Mormons think a man without his woman is just as pointless), and I did not think that the Kenneth and Anne scene in TMWRCCA, was about curing homosexuality or about Anne settling for a relationship with any man, no matter how disfunctional it would be in a romantic sense, rather than being alone. Personally, I gave up dating about 10 years ago when I realized I was not able to get around all the crap I had been programmed with. I had no problem whatsoever with the idea that Kenny and Anne's relationship was just about two people connecting, and if I had no problem with that idea, given my upbringing, then Shaz et al, have really limited ideas regarding relationships between the sexes. Well, I'm back to work so that I can sneak outside today to enjoy the astonishingly spring-like weather. Of course, that's because I am not a true Minnesotan. Although I have lived here long enough to understand that all unusually pleasant weather must be paid for with a greater amount of unusually bad weather later. So, we're just sitting here waiting for the other shoe to drop. . .

DTS- When did your issue of Rabbit Hole arrive? I didn't receive mine yet and just wonderin' if I need to give Susan a nudge. Thanks, Charlie

DTS -- (Ha ha ha! I know you said that was your last word, but it's been so long since I had a good debate, I refuse to let this die! *More diabolical-type laughter* Bring on the comfy chair!) But if Levendis is an extended metaphor for the universe, isn't it acceptable to examine how the metaphor works in its surroundings to try and link it back to the larger whole? I think gut reactions are fine and dandy things, as well. But I don't think it's necessary to forget your gut reaction when you go back through and explore the text. By the way, what did you mean when you said I put my own words into translation? Do I really come off like -- dare I say it -- a Shaz?

Otto: what I should have said was, You are too literal where the subject of "Levendis" is concerned. After all, Doc, who spoke with Ellison about it, mentioned (in his post) that HE meant for Levendis to represent the Universe. That being so, everything "he" does shouldn't, perhaps, be taken as a literally physical action by carbon-based bipedal being. Perhaps Ellison is using the Levendis character, having him do and say things, in a purely symbolic fashion -- thereby making it easier for us to comprehend the actions of an uncaring, unfeeling, uninvolved (in an emotional sense) Universe. (ya know, the way the god of christians used a burning bush to reveal himself). In the end, where I'm concerned, all this deconstructionalism just takes the juice out of the story. I perfer gut reaction to over-intellectualizing. My gut reaction, from what I've heard of Ellison's comments and read in his notes for the story, seem to have been on the money. So I'll deconstruct no more (hey, sounds like the title to a country and western tune...er, maybe). By the way, I said in the case of Levendis you were too literal. In other areas, you (like Shaz -- not that I'm comparing personalities, just actions) seem hell-bent on reading too much into something said or written. Even putting your own words into the translation. In other words, nothing I've said or written smacks of distaste for intellectual curiosity. So there is no reason for that question to come up. Unless you are trying to read too much into everything. Remember what they say about the word assume. Okay. That's my final word on this subject. Have a good holiday. Out here, DTS.

I breathe a sigh of relief as I sit at home and marvel at the final I just bombed. Still. Only one more to go. Maybe it was for the best that we overloaded the server. I probably would've done much worse. Oh, and Rick. I will have to concur with your depiction of EE students (electrical engineering). As a student of Computer Engineering I have, from time to time, been subjected to their juvenile, and often times, closed minded ways. I don't understand it personally. And I'm sure there are plenty of nice and socialble electrical engineers out there in the world. But a wildly disproportionate segment of that population is just plain unfriendly. Heck, a friend of mine decided that a double major in Math and Philosophy was preferable to the carnage he was subjected to in the electrical engineering department. And where is this going? Absolutely nowhere. I'm still reeling from my first few rounds with finals. I've got one more test before I'm allowed to throw in the towel though.. Ding Ding.. Okay, back into the ring.---Peter (I once fell for an english major. Then I asked her to move her foot out of the aisle.)

DTS -- I'm intrigued: What do you mean when you say that I'm too literal and I need to get past it? I'll admit I'm the type of person who occasionally goes too far and finds parallels between the Aenead and "Croatoan," through overzealous textual analysis and possibly infernal inspiration, but (deep breath, everyone) I'm not really sure why it's a bad thing. I appreciate TMWRCCA as a great story, really I do, I make everyone read it and occasionally scream things about limited worlds so that no one will sit next to me on public transportation. But I enjoy looking through texts and playing with the details, possibly because I tend to speed read (bad habit, I know) my first time through something, and miss these gems. So I like combing the text, and when I get to a sticky place like this one, I get curious. Are you saying that intellectual curiousity is a bad thing?

Damn: can't type for sour owl poop tonight. Oh, well. You say "ether" I say "either," but neither one makes any sense.

By the way, before anyone calls me on it: "fragmanet" is an actual word. It means: a small, typed piece of fiction used by the author as a seine, or net, for attracting more verbiage that may be floating in the either region. -- Yours by way of information, DTS.

Whoops: regarding the post by me below. I said HERC newsletters were $8 and issue -- make that $8 for four issues (and a subscription). It actually runs $2 an issue. Published on an "as soon as time permits" basis. -- Over and Out, DTS.

Nicole: I'm not presuming to speak for Ellison, but regarding the first of your two questions -- maybe you, like Shaz has already done, are trying to read too much into every little thing in every story. When the couple meet in the grocery store and go home together, finding solace and comfort in each other's company, who's to say they had to have a sexual relationship as well? Why couldn't an emotional and intellectual relationship sustain them? (Ellison never wrote anything to hint of sex or sexual conversion where the relationship was concerned -- I took the passage at face value -- two lonely people had finally found someone to fill the void in their separate lives by living together). Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Otto: I give up. You've worn me out. You're too literal. You need to get past that. Everyone: the new HERC newsletter has information about various anthologies, tapes and such which contain reprints of Ellison stories; it also has news about stories HE wrote recently in the "Dangerous Visions" books store ("Objects of Desire In the Mirror Are Closer Than They Appear") and with Neil Gaiman at Mad Media 5 ("Shoot Day For Night"); and a bunch of other info about books, tapes and CDs which can be order from HERC. It also contains the beginnings of 3 story fragmanets(or ideas), which were typed while the SF channel was filming Ellison in his home ("Don't Goy Me Down," "The Mini-Mall of Timesweetness," and "Killing the Shadow Toad"). Plus lots of pictures and stuff. All for only $8.00 an issue. Sign up now before copies of "Rabbit Hole #20" go out of print. (This message was not a paid advertisement of the Kilimanjaro Corp). Out here, DTS.

Barney- Sorry, I couldn't resist. On a lighter note, I picked up the SF "Seeing EAR Theatre" on tape, Vol. 1, and our own HE provides an introduction to the stories. Only a mere $18. Charlie

Good thing I took several days off to study for finals. I read through the messages, and I'm pretty sure I would have had some particularly nasty things to say to Shaz, but looks like you all beat me to them. :) Barney- that *had* to be sarcasm there. I'll admit, while I'd never personally have sex with another woman, I support homosexuality totally. Many of my friends are gay or lesbian, and the coffee shop I hang out is 90% gay, so that doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, I *do* have a question for Mr. Ellison on TMWRCCA (two, actually, but only one will I post here, since it has to do with our topic): What *was* intended to happen between Kenneth Kulwin and Anne Gillen in the grocery store? (pg. 2-3, 3rd section) Was it just friends, or was he indeed trying to cure homosexuality? This was mentioned earlier, but I don't think that question was answered.

***CHARLIE*** tsk tsk. No fair giving the game away. ***Everybody Else *** Should the homophobia discussion take place I'm afraid I will have to abstain. I have a confession to make. I am a homophobe. I am mildly horrified at the prospect of somebody sticking their dinky in my bum. I'm sorry. I know this makes me a bad person as well as being unsuited to watch many of this seasons sitcoms but I will strive to make up for it somehow. There. I said it. I hope you will all find it in your hearts to forgive me. I am a victim of my time. If you had to listen to Kiss and K.C. and the Freakin Sunshine Band during your formative years you to would see yourself as a victim. :-)

HE's commentary in the Avram Davidson Treasury explains the character of Levendis from TMWRCCA, in HE's very own words. Bye, Charlie

EVERYONE - Congratulations! There has been so much traffic here that the menagerie.net webserver ran out of disk space! We're back in business now, so rant away... ------ SHAZ - stop pretending that that I said anything meriting your state of aggrieved offense, or that you were just being "direct" and attacking my "style" in response. You know EXACTLY what sort of nastiness you were about, as do I, as does everyone else here. While it is amusing to watch you dance (especially inasmuch as fols that know me will tell you implying I am vain or sexist is like implying Rush Limbaugh is svelte or liberal), it grows tiresome. The same applies to your (one hopes) deliberately ignorant and provocative use of words like "censorship" and "plagiarism" - these sort of errors could be interpreted as gaffs from, say, an undergraduate student in Electrical Engineering, but it is difficult to accept them as genuine mistakes when coming from a graduate student in English Literature. I am glad to see our discussion of TMWRCCA ashore is behind us, and I look forward to seeing your post on homophobia in the writings of Harlan Ellison. But please, this time, spare us the rhetoric and protestation. I am adept at recognizing both the toga of the senator and the robe of the martyr, and neither outfit looks good on you.

-of how that degree WAS obtained - See? I often fail to use my degree...

PEGGY - If it came across as bashing, please accept my apologies; that wasn't the intent. In just about every technical field, the degree and the illustrated quality of how that degree were obtained are of paramount importance (no sane HR department,for example, would hire Homer Simpson to work a nuclear reactor, even with his degree...) My point was more to the flavor that the whole measure of a person's value shouldn't reside solely in whether they have a piece of paper that says "Today, you are a __________" (fill in the blank). I blame my own brand of inarticuliness at 2:15 am EST for any mis-steps in tone. Finder

And now, because fools rush in where angels fear to tread...having re-read the so-called "homophobic" section of "TMWRCCA", both after Rick's posting and several times this evening, I find it hard to swallow the leap between what HE has written and the assertion that there is something akin to a homosexual conversion cliche at the end of the segment in question. This is a tale of two people who have been in solitude, who are engineered into a mutual bridging of that lonliness (illustrated by the fact they share a favorite movie). Lonliness is a recurring trait in many of HE's characters, a devestational, long-term absence of others in the characters' lives. Consider the protagonist of "Susan", and that tale's ending. It's a condemnation of lonliness, an illustration of how deeply being without anyone's company for so long truly feels. Admittedly, there is a romantic flavor to "Susan", which doesn't make it a perfect example. But the point is some of HE's most downtrodden characters are the ones who exist alone. And some of his most triumphant are those who find, have or regain companionship of some kind. In TMWRCCA, Kenny and Anne are two lonely people (clearly stated in the text) whose worlds are opened to one another (again, clearly stated) as they find they have something in common (also clear as a bell). Finding you have something in common with someone else has never in my experience automatically presumed a deep emotional relationship, sex, marriage, children, anything. It means you have something to talk about. Is it so very different from, say, two old widowers who meet by chance on a park bench and find out they both campaigned for Eisenhower? Does that presuppose some kind of deeper interpersonal interest beyond a conversation? Or does it indicate potential friendship, companionship to pass the time for two people who have no one else to spend time with? If it's going to imply anything, there is only enough there to support the latter. What isn't clearly stated inthe story is the ultimate fate of Kenny and Anne following their introduction. It isn't even hinted at, because what happens after they meet isn't the point at all. What matters (in the context and structure of the story) is the demonstration that Levendis has done something to be perceived by the reader as "good". He has helped two people in silent worlds find out their worlds don't have to be silent. And if you've lived in that kind of silence before, you know how much of a blessing finding someone with shared interests can be. Now, if this constitutes "homophobia" on the part of the author, you'd be hard-pressed to prove it in a court of law, or in the court of public opinion. The text isn't there, the subtext isn't there, there are no shooters on the Grassy Knoll. Now, can we all move on in Slippage? I'd like to get past the first story and on to a rousing discussion of the pros and cons of the two versions of "The Pale Silver Dollar Of The Moon Pays Its Way And Makes Change" before Candlemas Day...Finder

A degree doesn't necessarily convey knowledge and wisdom, nor does the lack of one decry ignorance. But just to beat my own drum, there are fields where earning a degree means you have obtained a minimum skill and knowledge level. Probably more applicable in my field - chemical engineering - where there are tangible, demonstrable, and *necessary* skills to learn than liberal arts. I'm not advocating that you have to have a degree to properly read and review a piece of work. But let's not bash degrees altogether here.....

***Finder*** I don't remember where I picked "muzzy" up from. Lewis Carrol? Lord Dunsany? Little Nemo? Sort of fuzzy and muffled - like the word.

It just occured to me what a good thing it is that SHAZ studies lit. instead of Physics because what they do to fictional cats in quantum theory is, umm, really clever!

BARNEY - If I have to ask, I probably don't really want to know, but - Muzzy Headed? DOC - You see what happens when you go away? The children, man, think of the children! MITCH - Amen. PETER - Don't get swerved into the trap of protracted misery over what's going on here, of all places. A degree is a piece of paper that says you successfully applied yourself to a series of topics that you may or may not remember ten years from now. I know because I have one in English. And I work as a QA and Input/Output Manager for a Billing Systems Provider. Go figure. Lots of famous literary figures to pour over there. Neither degree nor job is an adequate measure of who I am or what I'm about. The measures are the things I learned along the way, the experiences I've had, the friends I've made - and the mistakes, and how allthat has shaped me. All these are things that a piece of parchment that cost tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours don't and can't reflect. Could I dredge meaning out of Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom" at this point, being an English major from back in 1990? Who cares? We each create our own unique tools from the template of education as we need them in life. For some things, yeah, an advanced degree (regardless of field) may be what an employer wants. But the other half of reality is some very brilliant, saavy and well-employed people I know hold no more than a high school diploma or, in one case, a GED. And more than a few people I know who went through Masters programs are still looking for that big breakout job. Like just about everything else, it's a crap-shoot. So don't let anyone wrankle you. And if you still have finals, what are you doing sitting there reading this? Go study, for cyin' out loud! Finder

But, DTS -- this isn't a universe that operates without judgment or intervention. Levendis passes judgment when he makes the statement about mediocrity, and the whole story is about his interventions. Levendis doesn't just exist, he exists with a will -- he chooses to disobey his orders. And I'm not trying to be a bastard about this, honest. It's just that I'm irritatingly inquisitive, and I whine until I feel that any question I've asked has been answered to my satisfaction. Usually I ask myself, then go off and write an essay on it -- I've got this whole pile of Ellison-inspired verbosity in my desk. But this has me stumped, and I'm really and truly hunting for some sort of non-contradictory answer. Uff da.

I'm gonna lay off posting for a bit. I've got finals to study for and quite frankly, the circular debates are just making me beligerant. peace! ---Peter

Well, what he said! Mitch, that is. I took a day break and then read everything over. Not trying to be mean, but it really does seem we're going in circles here. I seem to recall a truce being called on the Amarin issue. Perhaps we could at least have a bit cease fire?? I love reading the debate, but the personal bits have gone from being distracting to detracting. One of the reasons I like this board so much is that in general the posters are above all the finger pointing and flaming that happens on other boards. I'm not saying we all have to agree (I'd hate to hear what you really think of my faith, though I'm grateful y'all took it easy on me), but we've gone past that point here. I think Shaz had a good idea when she said (and yes, I realized she was a woman) she was going to write something offline. And in closing, I offer a favorite quote of mine, author unknown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I'm off, heading home tomorrow. The Pegster

Otto: I wont presume to speak for Doc, but I think you're missing the point: the Universe, which is filled with entropy -- random, chaotic energy -- is indifferent. It cannot be mediocre if it does what it is supposed to do -- which is exist, without judgement, without intervention. When Levendis speaks -- about mediocrity, whatever -- this is just Ellison being whimsical. After all, we can't talk to the Universe anymore than blievers can talk to their Gods. All right? Now. Give it a rest already. Sheesh! Yours in good humor, DTS

Have you guys tried these Salsa Verde Doritos? They're pretty good! Spicier than the regular chip, and they don't turn your fingers orange. I've been munching on 'em, watching this debate rage along. Entering it would be pointless, since my responses would mostly consist of 'Yeah, what he said!'. I am strongly against animal abuse, especially of dead horses. Here's my proposal: take a couple days off from the board, then re-read everything that's been said so far. I mean REALLY read it. Then, if you have anything further to add, feel free to do so. Just a suggestion from the peanut gallery...mmm, peanuts...Mitch

DOC (Damn, I love this debating stuff. I'm going to have to do something about these omnipresent, irritating parentheses, though): All right, I realize that you got your stuff straight from the horse's mouth, but I don't know how much was your own extrapolation of that, so bear with me here. Levendis is the Universe. Okay. That'll have to rattle around in the head for a few days. But if the universe is indifferent, can it also have a thing about the name of a revolutionary war battle as "a matter of personal pique." I mean, there's days when the universe SEEMS to be personally ticked off at me, but . . . well. And if Levendis isn't evil when he quietly observes the skinheads, then I'm afraid you'll have to redefine mediocrity for me.

TWO vowels. 2 vowels! crap.

**PETER** It will never end. **RICK** Geo/Neon. Hey. I had to vowels right. On Jeapordy I'd be a rich man! **PETER** I knew SHAZ was a woman. Nyah nyah! I just didn't much care. **SHAZ** Yes, I did excerpt 4 sentences of yours from the bodies of their respective posts. I even compressed parenthetical remarks out of two of them to make them clearer. I did this to show readers that the fourth statement was in opposition to the other three. Adding them back into the body of your posts neither changes or alters their meanings. I did all this cutting and pasting to illustrate that you are deeply conflicted with regard to your feelings about art and its presentation in a public forum. **SHAZ Redux** You say that it is important that Ellison "examine the message that he sends to his readers". The levels of presumption attendant in this remark come close to boggling my mind. ***SHAZ redux II*** Plunging back into the strange world of fictional cats I see you are attempting to reduce Levendis' motives to two possible interpretations [both yours] while simultaneously ignoring my [and other] interpretations of the story which allow for both Levendis' behavior and consistent artistic intent upon the part of the author. Good effort. C- ***SHAZ re; dod doo*** Here is another shaz quote- " The most interesting ideologies in a work of fiction, or non-fiction, are those that the author is not fully aware of her/himself." I just want to say that is the most muzzy headed thought I have encountered in three weeks. It now supercedes the line "I'm sort of like a black Jesse Owens" in my pantheon of wrong-headed remarks. It's underpinnings are that there is extra value to be found in incompetence. ***To all - "There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" Ansel Adams

Okay, SHAZ (Otto takes a tiny stand): You stated that every negative thing Levendis does is slightly mischevious or unprovoked. Ahem. On the twenty-second, he drops "a fully-restored 1926 Ahrens-Fox model RK fire engine on a mini-mall in Clarksville, Arkansas." This is mischevious? Dropping an entire vehicle on a mini-mall, a structure usually frequented during the week by housewives and small children. It's true that no specific deaths are noted, but (assuming Doc in all his wisdom is correct), Levendis is mostly indifferent. What's important is the deed, not the mayhem it may cause. Is this provoked? There's no preceeding harangue on the evils of mini-malls. On the twenty-seventh, he "made it his business to kill the remaining seventeen American GIs being held MIA in an encampment in the heart of Laos." What did they do to deserve death? (I dunno, maybe they once tied a can to a dog's tail.) The soldiers don't worry you, but the cat does? The fact that the I.Q. of the entire human race is lowered two points is not disturbing? (I mean, that's just malicious, right there.) How can you hang this whole story on the description of a homosexual (which you may or may not have misinterpreted) and the indignity of a cat (one representative of said species I have personally, forcefully, aided out of my house) which, in the story, was still alive before the taxidermist got his hands on it?

Oh where, oh where has my little cat, gone, or where oh where could she be? Perhaps she was beaten up by a fictional character.... Shaz, "why don't I buy you a cross, so that next time you feel like bei