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The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 08/28/96 to 12/13/96

Todd Mason
- Friday, December 13, 1996 at 12:04:51 (CST)

Here's a more coherent version of that first clause: Well...I thought I was always clearly criticising only those Boomers who would like us to believe their excrement doesn't reek, and enjoy imparting that through denigrating their juniors

Todd Mason
- Friday, December 13, 1996 at 12:03:10 (CST)

Well...I thought I was always clearly criticising only those Boomers who are would like us to believe their excrement doesn't reek, and imparting that through denigrating their juniors...if y'all think that describes ALL Boomers, I'll have to disagree, albeit with a grin...J. Michael S. and GRR Martin (both deeply involved, like Ellison, with THE TWILIGHT ZONE revival, perhaps oddly coincidentally) were the specific, and cited, perps.... Keegan: Yeah, the current plethora of shallow actors jumping into Scientology (Cruise, Travolta, Alley, et al.) had a bit of a jazz antecedent...which helps to explain Corea and Clarke (I don't remember if Konitz is as well) being on the hilariously awful "soundtrack album" Bridge Publications released with the book publication of BATTLEFIELD EARTH...

Sue Luesse
Passion? I thought that was Easter, not Christmas.. - Friday, December 13, 1996 at 10:14:20 (CST)

Good thought *ZACK* - though as usual, my first reaction is a question, rather than _the_ answer.. Passion and emotion are so often used interchangeably, that I begin to wonder why we need two words.. Can any emotion felt intensely enough be passion? I'd certainly agree that passion seems to generate amazing creativity and thought (not to mention perseverance).. But is it the same thing as emotion, or something else that generates intense emotion? *TODD*, bubie, sweetie, dah-link, kiss-kiss, moo-moo.. You really need to be a tad more specific with your rants - at least until you've given us a chance to get to know you, and put them into a context.. It was entirely unclear that it was aimed at a particular person, and not an entire generation.. And yes, this is a HE Board, so expect people to get testy when broad brushes slop crap all over them.. And expect them to be sensitive to stereotypes, along with all the other BS shoved at us daily (we wouldn't be very good HE fans if we supported that garbage in defiance of all HE has written and done to educate us).. And, yes it was a misunderstanding - and I'm pretty sure we all caught that when you finally clarified.. Hope this clarifies the meaning of my last post, when I was happy to ditch the dispute.. GEEZ! Feel like I'm being buried in nits picked.. Anyone know of a recylcer that pays for bulk used picked nits? Could be a nice second income in it.. A little extra Christmas cash, at the least.. Always nice to find the 'up' side, isn't it?? Wonder how many nits there are to the pound?? Maybe I'll keep the day job for a while.. *ALL* Doc wishes you all a Happy Holidays, and has given me his new, temporary, c/o snail mail address. Drop me a line if you would like it. I am somewhat at a loss with the current jazz thread. I listen well.. Find myself feeling strangely sympathetic to *BARNEY* as I struggle place all the names.. How's it coming with the Name Game?? And if it isn't too much trouble, how about a re-cap on who was identified, and who is still waiting for someone to educate us?? Been thinking about what you posted on Hal Holbrook/Mark Twain (takes me a while, doesn't it??), and have to say that bringing the immediacy of Twains genius in the context of his person to new generations is certainly a selfless creative act by Holbrook, and worthy of the high praise it has earned him. Takes one to know one?? What would I know.. I best get back to my real life - the one where I find options to sanity oddly alluring.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 20:19:48 (CST)

tee-hee, Todd! My mentor thinks that I describe my piano skills very well: "I'm a GREAT terrible pianist". He's taken that phrase to describe his own ability at the board. BTW, I didn't know Konitz was a Scientologist. Go figure!

Todd Mason
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 19:03:35 (CST)

Alas, Keegan, I've moved from DC (actually Arlington) to Philadelphia...never got over to One Step Down, either (but did see Braxton once at the late, lamented dc space), and only had one Horrible experience with Blues Alley, so never went back (a good concert, Albert King and Koko Taylor and their bands, that the club and its patrons did everything they could to ruin). But thanks for the invite! Maybe someday. Circle was a hell of band, warn't it? They were Very young and Pensive, but their talent was very much in evidence...if I was a controversialist, I might make some crack about how it's too bad that Corea (and Clarke and Konitz and) fell under the sway of L. Ron Hubbard's cult, but then Renee the Dominatrix of the Lupine would get mad at me again. (BTW, that wasn't an insult or a carp, but a rib...and my previous statements included some disagreement and mild criticism rather than carping...or so I say.) Oh, yes: I'm a mediocre singer, a lousy trombonist, an incompetent percussionist, and been known to make attempts at notes on other instruments. Hey, Zack--I always thought of THE PRISONER as surreal, sometimes very impressively so, indeed. In fact, the average quality of the fantastic-leaning/surreal spy shows of the '60s was pretty high, compared to most other genres...SECRET AGENT was about as good, though fairly realistic, THE AVENGERS, MAN FROM UNCLE (with the two Ellison scripts), MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE (early on, anyway), I SPY (even with its dishonest nationalism at times), and of course GET SMART! are a pretty impressive stack compared to a similar list of SF or family saga or even police procedural shows...

Zack <handlen@lamere.net>
Lyman, Maine U.S. of A. - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 16:48:08 (CST)

Here's a thought: it is only when we are most angry and reactive in our writings that we are the most passionate. (Grammatically correct? Oops, sorry, forgot I was on a HE website :) As most of us know, being HE fans and all, our demi-god spends maybe a quarter of his time being righteously pissed off about something. (Weren't those rants on the Sci-Fi channel just beautiful?) And that's great; because of the way he his, HE always sounds like the most intelligent man alive, even when he's bitching. Unfortunately, the rest of us generally end up sound like a bunch of two-bit Morton Downey Jr.'s whenever we raise our voices a decibel or so. But when we're able to write down our thoughts, to transmute our passions from electric signals into wood pulp, we become third-rate philosophers, ranters, believers in the power of the phrase. Hell, I'd rather be bitched out on the web then have to face some moron screaming at my face in the Quicky-Mart down the block. Anyway, all I'm saying is that anger's great if put to the right things. And if you can't stand the heat, move to Alaska. (Yeah, I know, I probably opening myself up to about a million sarcastic replies: cool!) By the way, "The Prisoner" was the best SciFi/action/intrigue/whatever the hell it was show on television ever. Be seeing you.

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Planting Land Mines Outside The Life Hutch...., - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 15:15:37 (CST)

What the hell is it? The weather? The season? Just mention something and everybody gets bitchy! Not just here, all over the lists/comments/boards around the Web. Everybody's carping at each other. Maybe I'll go back into hiding -- safer that way!

keegan
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 13:37:32 (CST)

Hey, Todd! Great to hear jazz stories! Are you a player? Next time I'm in DC ( I go there frequently to see my inlaws and my best friend) we should meet at Blues Alley. I'll be dragging my husband along! Anthony Braxton, BTW, was on the first jazz record I ever owned: "Circulus" by the Circle Quartet (Chick Corea, Dave Holland, Braxton, and Barry Altschul). It wasn't exactly "swingin'", but I was fascinated with the sounds anyway. Carry on, all!

Todd Mason
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 12:09:33 (CST)

Hmm. Seems like everyone except Keegan is misunderstanding what I was saying about smug Boomers--that it's they (or, in this case, J Michael of BABYLON 5), not I, who seem to be taking "generational divide" as a meaningful descriptive term, with the fantasy that any given generation is vastly more politically/socially/culturally aware than any other--claims otherwise are the kind of Mad Av-style hype that some of you are particularly annoyed by. Oh well. To paraphrase Chairman Algis, next time I'll try to take the marbles out of my mouth. Keegan--well, I was present at the first Thelonious Monk Memorial Concert at the DAR's Constitution Hall in DC in 1987. The irony of having the concert at Constitution Hall was not lost on me, give how the Daughters of the American Revolution wouldn't let Marian Anderson sing there back in the '40s...because she was (sic) "colored". The two guys who designed the program couldn't convince their girlfriends to accompany them (!), so they gave their passes to friendly acquaintance me and the jazz prof at our mutual U. Highlights of the concert included the cutting contest between Dizzy Gillespie and Michael Amram (trumpet versus French horn and then muted trumpet vs. pennywhistle--Gillespie won, unsurprisingly, but Amram gave him a run) and Urszula Dudziak's solo-with-phased-recorder acapella performance. The passes were good for the reception afterward, so that I was able to literally bump into Gerry Mulligan (I knew his reputation for not enjoying gushing fans, but it would've been difficult for me not to gush even if we hadn't backed into one another at a buffet table...one turns around to apologize and Gerry Mulligan is doing the same. Woof. I also met Amram (a perfect gentleman), Dudziak (who was shockingly ignored by most of the crowd at the banquet, even more shockingly as this was one of her first performances after emigrating from Poland ((I think it was)), and she kinda looked as if a few more benisons would've been appreciated [see my previous post!]), Wynton Marsalis (his jazz playing was still very stiff then...he's since improved some), and r&b performer T.S. Monk, descendant and mainspring of the foundation the concert was raising money for. Not until the International Assoc of Jazz Educators conference in DC in '91 (where I got to meet Joe Morello and Max Roach, among others) was my mind to be as blown in that regard. PBS did a half-assed documentary of the concert, that left out some of the best music. One of my colleagues at KTUH was a blind fellow name Mike Meehan, who once called Ellison up because he could, in the late '70s, only find a very few recorded versions of his work (maybe only the Alternate Worlds Records releases, then). Ellison apparently picked up the phone saying, "You better be nice. It's been a shitty day." Upon hearing who was calling, why, and from where, Ellison reportedly said, "Jesus Christ, you're calling from Hawaii?!?" Meehan was very appreciative of Ellison taking the time with him, a stranger. But this is the kind of good deed, if Ellison's "Xenogenesis" is to be believed, the knowledge of which will lead boneheads to call up and pretend to be blind or otherwise try to waste his time. Tim, if you listen to George Russell and Anthony Braxton along with Miles Davis, I'll know you are not a captive of any generation nor, much worse, trendiness...

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 11:19:42 (CST)

Well, thank heavens we can ditch that 'age' thread.. It struck me as ironic in afterthought that such a discussion would break out on a Board dedicated to one of the oldest angry young man still living.. I rather like *TIM's* take on what 'old' is.. (And I'm glad to see a raucus sense of humor won't scare him off). Sure seems to me that when people start with the young/old thing, what they are really talking about is hardening of the attitudes - which happens at any age, but isn't generally noticable until time moves on and the person doesn't. Yes,*TODD*, I can relate to the wistful memories and regrets of unspoken 'til too late. The illusion that life will continue in it's happy rounds unchanged does come to a screeching halt at the Obits page with a name we *know*. Does one of two things.. Either forces us to accept change, and grow on - or hardens the attitudes. And if we accept change as natural, then we learn to appreciate and affirm the life around us while we can. *WOLFMISTRESS* good to hear from you! And *ENOCH*, I know it's a listed phone number, and I know it is REALLY tempting, but unless you have a *really* good reason to call HE, it's probably a good idea not to call HE, and keep 2 cheeks on your butt.. HE tends to view such phone calls the same way we do telephone solicitations for Lawn Service and Vinyl Siding/Window Replacements - as an invasion of his privacy. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 08:02:43 (CST)

Baby boomers, Generation X...who gives a damn? I'm 31 and fit into neither category comfortably. We all do what we do, alone, right? And in the end, we're all ultimately on our own anyway (not to be existensialist or anything), and the mad urge to label our work and assign everyone into a particular heading (even if those headings are as fluid as Fantasy, Horror, and SF) is a mindless exercise better left to the Madison Avenue marketing whiz ad execs. Who needs it? Does being born in '65 mean I have to listen to Pearl Jam's Vitalogy instead of Miles Davis's Kind of Blue? Arguing over the "generation gap" is an outdated exercise in boredom, and those who fall into the discussion are better off ignored. Isn't it true when they say that "OLD" is merely ten years farther down the track than you are?

Enoch Mirren
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 05:32:23 (CST)

Just a curious thing. In the intro to "Are You Listening?" from Alone Against Tomorrow (1971), Ellison gives his home phone number. I just looked him up in the Megllan People Finder, and low and behold: same phone number.

keegan 'gin
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 22:53:51 (CST)

Oh, and, hi Wolfmistress!

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
BLISS - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 22:52:59 (CST)

Hey, Mason-I just went back and re-read your post and I'd say we're basically in agreement. So that's that as far as I'm concerned. Your last post touched me. I can relate. Got to tell HE how I felt about him. He was gracious, but quickly moved the conversation past the sounds of my sucking up. Is there more to the Mulligan story that you'd care to share (either here or by email)? Sure wish I had met him. I did meet Dizzy Gillespie and sing for him, but that's *another* story and one I think I may have told someplace here in archival ages ago. Anyway...good night. I wish you all sweet dreams, unless, of course, you're a horror writer and that's your own private Schenectady--your source of ideas (BTW-I think that's one of HE's all-time Great Answers to Stupid Questions). -/;>)

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Booking a Tour of the Region Between...., - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 18:28:19 (CST)

Well, well -- I'm gone for a couple weeks and look what happens -- the whole thing degenerates into a discussion that began almost a year ago. Xers & Boomers, the later of which I am a damned proud part. I'm having this same argument on another list I've joined and frankly, I'm not in the mood to explain anything all over again. Have fun, kiddies. Bite each other if you want, as long as you've all had your shots.....

Mason
KoP, Morose - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 16:28:11 (CST)

Well...I, too am actually of the "Busters" (as in Baby Bust), Keegan, as I was born the year before you, which by some reckoning could put me at the very tail end of the boom...I can certainly remember the pain of having to suffer through the earliest Beatles-as-soap-opera hits of the BeeGees (for example), hence the irritation with Martin expressed before. ("I started a Joke..."). But I just heard about the death of John Duffy, the tenor of the bluegrass band the Seldom Scene, and it triggers all kinds of thoughts...I managed to live in Northern VA for 12 years, until last month, without ever taking advantage of the Scene's regular Thursday gig at the Birchmere...this after first having a woman on whom I had a crush (unrequited) play some of their work for me at KTUH, the University of Hawaii radio station (my parents had just moved to Virginia after 4 years in Hawaii, and not long after I would go join them). Country singer Faron Young killed himself yesterday; bluegrass mandolinist and singer Duffy had a heart attack; both were in their 60s (too young to be bowing out, certainly). Which reminded me of all the people who die too young, often too little appreciated. Ellison certainly seems to be facing the opposite problem, cajoling his fans to stop sending him get-wells as they're drowning him, but among his friends have been too many geniuses and worthy people who've died with insufficient recognition or funds...Avram Davidson comes to mind. Fritz Leiber's a less extreme case (my semi-educated impression is that he was comfortable enough for his own taste financially at the time of his death; Algis Budrys once wondered in his F&SF column where was Leiber's Pulitzer or National Book Award? With Borges's Nobel, I guess). So...I guess I'm glad I got a chance to tell Gerry Mulligan how much his music meant to me, even if that's the kind of statement from a stranger that apparently annoyed the hell out of the most successful baritone saxophonist in jazz...I'm glad I got to publicly agree with Abbie Hoffman, shortly before his death...it got me on C-SPAN for the second time, but you can't swing a cat in DC without eventually being on C-SPAN (I've been twice I know of). Tell the people how much their work means to you...they might need to know.

keegan
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 15:29:43 (CST)

WARNING: bad typos follow. I trust you're all intelligent enough to figure it out. bad keegan, bad keegan!:(

keegan
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 15:24:51 (CST)

No, folks, I can't read all the action in one sitting today. My time is limited on this trip to the 'Land. The penultimate Wednesday in December is THE meeting day for a teacher. Up at seven, singing at eight, chainsmoking at eleven, singing again at eleven thirty. Then the meetings. One after school until 4. Then one at 6:30 until 9:30. And that doesn't count the half hour drive time between. Between. That's where I am now. Which brings me to my comment about generation. First off, I don't care if you're 40 or 20, if you act like you're 2 and wanna blame all your suffering on someone else, then **** you (that is just how I feel in general on the generation gap issue, NOT a sentiment toward any individual here). Placing blame seems a jerk's game. Seriously, I know some 20-year-old jerks and some 40 or 50 year-old-jerks (heck, I even know some 10-old-jerks but maybe a dose of reality under my tutelage will make 'em shape up). The whole Boomer v. Gen X is a media generated debate. It gives people something to write and read about. I go out and talk to a couple of forty-somethings and find out what peeves them about kids; then I go out and find a couple of forty-somethings and find out what peeves them about geezers (again, joking, joking, joking). I compare the answers and write an article. Hopefully, the readers tap into the "debate" and assume stances of opposition which generates more to write about. Aaaaahhhh....well, maybe not but you see my point (hopefully). I am neither Boomer or Gen X. I was born in 1965. I read somewhere that that makes me a "wedgie". Strangely appropriate somehow....Gotta go. I'd like to eat something today. Will read in more detail later and see is there's anything else upon which I care to comment (you're all hoping that's NOT the case, aren't you?). Before I go have a life (or a piece of banana bread) I would just like to say I think you're all swell. Glad to see so many people expressing themselves.

Sue Luesse
Hush, It won't hurt.. - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 13:44:16 (CST)

Just dawned on me *SHAZ*, that you might take my last post to mean I didn't know you were referring to Jason's earlier quip.. But I did, I did.. I was just funning *with* ya.. *ANNE* I seem to recall your having posted here months ago.. Before the move?? Is you is, or is you ain't the same one?? Welcome anyhoo.. And *TODD*, guess you answered the question. Peanuts, anyone?? Excuse me, I have to pat myself on the back, and put down a few Gen-Xer's to meet my Boomer quota of ego re-inforcement.. I'm sure there is some esoteric slam we've missed that will sail over the heads of our intended victims... ];-)~ ...

Todd Mason <nada>
KoP, PA USA - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 11:00:43 (CST)

OK, OK, I was tired yesterday, after a day at work, and was so busy doping out the code that the interview transcriptor provided for us that I managed to forget all about ER Burroughs's Pellucidar...of which I've never read the books themselves. Ah, well. Perhaps treating with the inordinate number of typos increased my apparent irritability, but I'm pretty tired of smug 40-somethings attempting to pat themselves on the back by belittling their juniors, for the latters' supposed lack of engagement with the larger world. As if the major navel-gazing movements of the 70s and 80s weren't largely supported by Boomers (not all Boomers, but more than enough). I don't mind labels such as "Gen X" and "Boomer" so much as those who think they can say something universal about the amorphous quasigenerations so labelled. George R R Martin pulled a similar little snot-shot in the text of his THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, wherein Boomers congratulate each other for having better music than their juniors. Of Course, Mountain is much better than, say, Jawbox...Herman's Hermits or Melanie clearly outclass Bikini Kill or Spitboy. Bobby Sherman--immortal. But you get my drift. Ann(e)--sorry I forgot if you use an "e" or not--good luck with the manuscripts! You might do better with most SF markets if you use that abbreviation rather than "sigh-fie" (Spider Robinson), "skiffy" (Damon Knight), "sky-fi" (Michael Palin), or even Forrest J. Ackerman's original neologism...I remember sending out my mss. starting about age 12, though I didn't publish a short story (as opposed to all kinds of nonfiction and even some poetry) until two years ago...but many got an earlier start than I...again, good luck. Friends usually come slow, particularly for the kind of person who really enjoys skiffy. Hang in!

Anne Corwin <wckf28c@prodigy.com>
Saratoga, California Little-Guy-Land - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 10:26:37 (CST)

Well, it seems as if you guys have a nice little community here...I hope you're not bitter towards new contributors to this board. I guess I should begin with the obligatory, "Hi, my name is Anne, I'm a seventeen-year-old reclusive geek who reads Harlan Ellison stories." So there it is. From what I've read on the BB so far, you guys have very intriguing discussions--discussions that prompt me to want to get in on them. For that is my purpose in life...to seek out and invade the interesting conversations of others. My social skills consist of a penchant for interruptions and random comments. But this is all a defense mechanism for having nothing to say that might convince you guys that I am sane and worthy of reply to. I've been to parties, and I had a few friends until I moved to CA in August. Now, I do homework and take huge volumes of reading notes from my physics textbook. I just yesterday sent a sci-fi story to a magazine, with hopes of publishing it. I can't think of anything else to do with my mind. You're all probably going to think this message is a plea for attention. You're exactly right. I suppose I should talk about HArlan instead of myself: so here goes. Harlan Jay Ellison has somehow taken the English language hostage, beat it into submission, and now periodically releases it to do his bidding in the form of electric and violent prose. There. Anne

Sue Luesse
Well, it was bright and shiny when I got it.. - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 07:43:04 (CST)

Whoa! I thought *I* was crabby! *TODD* I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from on this stereotyping by age thing.. Are you against the labeling and packaging - or only protesting the label and package your age group got?? GEEZ! So far, I've been a Baby Boomer, a Hippie, a Yuppie, and now am back to the abreviated Boomer - at least that's what I'm told by Them That Knows better than me what I am. As far as I can tell, the only thing I have consistantly been is a disappointment to the Labellers and Packagers, who seem to resent folks too busy living their own lives to 'get into' the role assigned them.. This whole 'generation' thing is a joke to begin with.. For the longest time, it was the era's (as in time frame) that got the cute monikers (Gay 90's, Roaring 20's, THE 60's). But these days, with the advent of polls, and Marketing Research, it is groups of consumers that are clumped by target markets and labelled. Can you say Dem - Old - Graphics?? I find it humorous that my own children somehow manage to be divided between Boomers (the same group Mom and Dad are in) and Gen-Xer's - though there is only a four and a half year spread in ages among the 4 of them.. I can only assume it has more to do with income, and ways to divest us of it, than it does with any facts regarding our persons.. And as far as people claiming 'expertise' in ficticious disciplines purporting to define, analyze, and explain what isn't really there in the first place - it's nothing new. Folks have always substituted rote memorization for conceptual comprehension to claim Smarts (when all else fails, memorize an encyclopedia and join Mensa..). And other, equally 'intellectual' folks buy that.. You see a lot of them on talk shows.. Experts on things they invented to be experts on.. Don't get too worked up over it, since it isn't the truth (and don't you just love the distinctions made between truth, fact, factoid, and 'true' fact?? Is there a false fact??).. And, hey *SHAZ*, good to hear from you.. I think.. Now, does that imperative regarding Christmas mean I get to choose who?? And is that a *fun* thing, or a grab-your ankles sort?? My, my - Just when I thought there was an entire Holiday Season for the cheap and gaudy things I love (Ah! the glitter, the shinies, the things that dangle and blink), a time of year when the routine duplicity breaks out into a friendlier sort of hypocracy.. At the very least, respect the miracle of the peed-ons getting the same day off for centuries.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Shaz <ouch@snakebite.com>
Holland - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 06:44:20 (CST)

Hey kiddies: 'Tis the season to read (and send out in lieu of Xmas cards if you're particularly twisted ;) "No Offense Intended, but Fuck Xmas!".

Todd Mason <currently none>
KoP, PA USA - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 17:31:23 (CST)

Just read the JM Straczinski (sp?) i/v w/Ellison for Cyberdreams/"I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" promotion. JMS's snide little aside about "the self-labelled Generation X" and its smug ignorance is typical of Boomer ignorant smugness. Damned if TIME magazine or, not Richard Price but the other, shallower novelist Richard X whose work just started appearing in the last decade...damned if a pompous, ill-written "news"rag (staffed by Boomers and their elders) and its competitors and gimcrack novelist Douglas Coupland (it finally came to me) can be held up as speakscreatures for everyone under 35. JMS is furtherly disingenuous in suggesting that Gen X will be running things in 10 years...as if most serious power isn't concentrated in approximately 60-year-old hands in most circumstances. Yes, and white, male, and/or rich. Ellison seems to be the victim of demon typesetters these days, whether for White Wolf or in whoever transcribed the i/v...Garcia-Marquez and Borges get Germanicized, and toward the end Ellison might be referring to "pellucid ore" but I have no sense of certainty about that...any suggestions?

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 14:24:59 (CST)

The short story "Try A Dull Knife" can be found in the following HE collections: THE BEAST THAT SHOUTED LOVE AT THE HEART OF THE WORLD (which I think, along with LOVE AIN'T NOTHING BUT SEX MISSPELLED, will be in Edgeworks Vol. 3 or 4), ALONE AGAINST TOMORROW, and THE TIME OF THE EYE (British publication, Panther SF). If have several reasonably priced copies of THE BEAST and ALONE if you can't wait for the Edgeworks book.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
15 miles from Hell (MI), and yes, it froze over.. - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 13:21:12 (CST)

HoooWE! *TIM* that wasn't a tongue in your ear, it was Tom Paxton's classic wit rubbing up and down your leg - and can I have the _other_ ball when you take the one?? Got a small collection going - HEY! Everyone else has a hobby, and they look so cute dipped in glue & glitter, and hung from the tree with the miniature nutcrackers... ];-)~ ... Got paid, and everthang?!? I'll have to nip by horrornet and see if its worth sucking up early.. (don't hold your breath on that one..) And hello to you, too, from what I gather is the ONLY non-fiction writing patron of Webderland.. GEEZ! Did I get on the wrong line for talent?? Sure hope Attytude counts - I got LOTS of that - think I got in the same line twice, by mistake?? Oh, well.. There's always room for another enthusiactic reader. *BARNEY* How goes the Name Game?? I think I blew it, and took 2 turns, so you can disqualify me from the Grand Prize. And on smug re-reading of all the 'identified' names, I realized they weren't all identified.. And rather than rectify it myself, thought it would be nice if someone else took a shot (rectify and rectum sound so much alike - and being diabetic, 'shot' has an ugly underpinning of reality). *ALL* The back-up piece-O-crap escort is rolling again.. And today, in the mail, I get a recall notice on the darn thing for ignition problems.. So I call the dealer.. And we just fixed it.. No they don't re-imburse.. And Merry Christmas.. Think we'll keep the bikes warm in the garage, and not put them down for the winter after all. At least they GO when you want to. And if the roads are dry, no reason we can't ride through a certain dealership lot 'looking' at the new cars.. Take that, you greedy bastard.. See how many cars sell when customers worry about dodging bikers to look at them - and the bikes are on the dry part, leaving them the snowbanks.. We could hang bells from the handle-bars, and say we're assisting Santa.. Sssigghhh.. Sweet dreams - but it's pretty cold out there.. *QUESTION* One of my favorite HE stories is "Try A Dull Knife" - which it is now apparent, appeared in one of the books long since gone to the Borrowed-Book-Graveyard.. Can anyone tell me which collection it appeared in, so I can add it to my "Please-Please-Oh-God-I-want-it-bad" list for Christmas.. Thanks. Think I'll stop here, and nurse my grudge against Ford Motor Co., throw in a pout or two, and get back when I'm in a happier mood. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 10:14:52 (CST)

A quick aside, with a not-so-subtle bit of blatant self-promotion included (Jeez, and we hardly know each other -- would you mind taking your tongue out of my ear?). If you like HE's darker, more horror-oriented stories, you might want to check out the HorrorNet website at www.horrornet.com. HorrorNet features links to excellent online horror fiction and magazines, links to various author websites and to the Horror Writer's Association (which just gave HE a Life Achievement Award), and e-mail addresses for horror fiction writers. It's very well done, though it pales in comparison to Webderland, of course. The website is also just beginning a search for original fiction to purchase and publish -- check their writer's guidelines for more information. They just purchased their very first original story, by the way, an atmospheric short short called "Between Exits" written by some joker named Tim Walker from Dayton, Ohio. Who the hell is that? The check's already cashed and turned into groceries, and it didn't bounce; the story should be posted soon, and if you all don't read it, I'll take my ball and go back home. So there. :) Bye!

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 10:12:14 (CST)

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 08:38:57 (CST)

If you're reading this HE comments pages, chances you're not just a reader of HE but a bit of a writer yourself. HE still writes everything on an Olympia typewriter. You might find it interesting to see what Jerry Pournelle had to say about using a computer instead. (I wonder what Harlan would have to say about this...): http://www.byte.com/art/9612/sec12/art2.htm

keegan again
- Monday, December 09, 1996 at 18:05:58 (CST)

Oh, apologies, ZACK! I so identified with place that I mistakenly called you Lyman instead of your name. Forgive me.

keegan <ya can get heah frum theah....>
homesick, Maine is my country - Monday, December 09, 1996 at 18:03:24 (CST)

Oh, LYMAN! So good to hear a voice from the homeland! Born in Maine; Living in Exile (look for the Web page. I think it's called "Maine Exiles")----that's me. Going back for axe-mas and looks like it'll be a White Christmas. You know, "Danse Macabre" may have been the first place I ever saw HE's name mentioned. I was a major Stephen King reader like many young Maineiacs. My eighth-grade English teacher had us read short stories aloud to each other from "Night Shift". I became a popular reader because I would conveniently "forget" that I was supposed to leave out the swear words. I read a lot of Stephen King because I knew many of the Maine landmarks he mentioned in his writing and it just felt like Maine was so damn famous because it was in a book. Everything on teevee was from New York and LA. Maine was nowhere, but this guy King was writing scary books about us. Anyway, I read a lot of King. I may have read "Danse Macabre" when I was a junior in high school and I *know* I talked with my debate coach and my best friend, Jason, about "this Harlan Ellison guy". I couldn't get my hands on anything locally (libraries; bookstores) but heard "Jeffty is Five" just by chance at a speech competition. Finding HE became important to me then. I got my hands on what I could, but was still relatively clueless until I hit Webderland (some might argue that I'm *still* relatively clueless). Anyway, like King implies in "Danse", all of us cop Harlan's voice from time to time. You certainly managed to grab *my* attention (are you sure that's what you wanted? Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time!). Welcome!

Zack <handlen@lamere.net>
Lyman, Maine United States - Monday, December 09, 1996 at 16:56:53 (CST)

Wowsers! I'm shaken, I'm movin, I'm groovin in mah shoes. This is supremely Godlike mystical from beyond hit yah in the heart so you wanna die kind of stuff. I got interested in Harlan Ellison when I read about him in "Danse Macrabe" (a book on horror by the man, Stephen King), but it took me until such time as a Borders was to open in Portland before I could finally get my hands on such fine works as "Angry Candy," and "Death Bird." Makes me feel kinda backward, but hey, we all gotta start somewhere. Anyway, HE has had a humungous effect on me personally as a writer. (Yes, I realize I stole his style for about half of this message, but I had to get your attention somehow.) I'd love to meet; ironically enough, he probably doesn't want to meet me. Gotta go- just wanted to say how cool I think it is that there are more HE fans (way more) then there are in Lyman. By the way, the rants are awesome.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Sunday, December 08, 1996 at 10:47:01 (CST)

*KEEGAN* totally cool! I am a seriously bad singer myself, or I'd write for a copy and learn to scat (which I seriously admire and enjoy).. I can do the part where the syllables come out really fast (I call it talking) - just never sounds like music.. and it makes the dogs howl.. Sigghhh.. *BARNEY* since I don't have Edgeworks 2 to refer to, is it possible that the Alexander Ketensky you noted was a typo, and it is really Aleksandr Kerensky?? In which case, I know who that is.. and every name on the list has a response (if not a correct one - I do this with hazy memory as my source).. Kerensky was the Russian Premier from Spring to October in 1917, who tried to set up a republic (using the Duma as its basis) and ally Russia with England and France during WWII. He deposed Prince Lvov (the one Nicholas II abdicated in favor of) and was in turn overthrown by the October Revolution of the Bolsheviks (he was a Menshevik I think). Ayn Rand (who was eyewitness to the October Revolution in Moscow as a young girl) was a supporter of his political and ethical views.. Any Ayn Rand buffs to fill us in on that?? I know he died in 1970, and would love to find out what happened to him after he was deposed.. Lot of years there.. And if that's not the right guy, how about Alexander K., the protagonist (accused) in Franz Kafka's 'The Trial'?? No? Well, then I'm stumped (and it's bugging me). This really is a *fun* little game. *JIM* well, that's what you get for playing 'big people games'.. no fun, all work, and a guaranteed increase in the level of frustration at the end of the day.. *WOLFMISTRESS* Aaaruuuuhhhh.. That's the best howl I can work up.. Miss you.. *ALL* Lots of new names, and neat new Stuff on the old B-Board from everyone. Is this a concerted efort to drive Barney back into the Land of the Living with proof that HE is sometimes imperfectly correct, and there are more than 6 people (endlessly cloned)?? Keep it up!! Christmas Season always takes a toll on 'free-time' activities, so I didn't expect a lot of action 'til the new year on Webderland my first Cyber-Christmas. That is based on Real Life, where you can figure any group of people is 10% hard-core do-ers, and 90% show-up-sometimers.. I am glad to see that isn't the case in Cyberspace necessarily.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
Sleepless in Ithaca, - Sunday, December 08, 1996 at 02:30:17 (CST)

What the hey--I'm just dying to share! It's after three in the ay-em and I just completed a 9,000 word paper about how to approach vocal jazz improvisation (scat singing). My mentor read the rough draft and said it's one of the best things he's ever seen about learning how to sing jazz. He wants me to publish it and said that he will do all he can to see that happen (though I'm worried that the thing is a bit long, even for your average glossy professional journal). Anyway, I'm wired on this all- nighter and just *had* to tell *somebody*. If I wake up my husband, the article will be published posthumously fer shure. ;-) If anybody wants to know how to scat sing, email me and I'll send it out (serious inquiries only--believe me, you'd *have* to be serious to read this thing). Okay. Enough off-topic, boring, and self-congratulatory babble. Thanks for your time and indulgence. Nighty-night!

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton , Ohio - Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 20:04:58 (CST)

Gee, I must tell you people -- I am REALLY impressed. Sounds like the people who frequent this area are much more literate and intelligent than the majority of people I've met online. Nice to see there are still people who read books. I'm a fledgling screenwriter and I was curious -- has anyone ever read any of Harlan's scripts OTHER THAN the generally available ones? I've seen "CITY" and "I, ROBOT" of course, and also the ones in THE GLASS TEAT and "FLINTLOCK" in THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON...also read the three opening versions of "WHIMPER..." in HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING. But now I'm breathlessly awaiting HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE in EDGEWORKS VOL. 3, and I was wondering if any of you could point me toward any unseen scripts that HE wrote which might be around. Thanks!

James C. Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com>
Uhhhhhhhh..., In Which We Explain To The Turkey Sitting At The End of... - Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 14:20:24 (CST)

Wow. I wander off to do the adult thing for fifteen minutes and lookit what y'all did! I'm impressed that so many people know so much and are willing to share, share, share it! Wonderful! Maybe humanity isn't destined to become illiterate cave-dwelling trogs again. Whew. So...what to say? Oh! Read EDGEWORKS Vol 2. So, like, if, like, anyone, like, wants to, you know, like, talk about, like it, or, like, you know, e-mail, like, me, fur-sure. (I gotta stay away from L.A. for awhile. I'm affected by it.) Until next time...

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 09:04:07 (CST)

Great posts everybody! Of course I just realized this puts me in the unenviable position of fact checker but I wanted to get smarter so it's the price I'll pay. It's going to be fun to see how many (or few) of these names made ENCARTA and how many I'll have to research using my stash of real books Ray Bradbury made me stash away for the coming cultural ice age. Hope there are no "firemen" on this list. *Sue* I owe you a real letter - not a post it note - but it's gotta wait. *Peggy* If your lurking here, your British Petroleum e-mail address didn't work I t seemed to be a generic ie; Yourmail@ etc.Maybe try from some other station. Keep up the great work everybody. It's the weekend. I need to see new names or I'm going to start to believing Harlan is correct and it really is the same 6 crazy neighbors chatting away over the back fence of virtuosity. Living in denial. Barney

Sue Luesse
oh, shoot.. I forgot to add.., - Friday, December 06, 1996 at 12:03:12 (CST)

Barney, forgot to add that Paul Muni was an outspoken critic of US policies re: racism, and classism, and most especially the concentrations of power and wealth in the hands of the 'more equal' few. He was incredibly popular as an actor until the McCarthy House Committee on UnAmerican Activities cranked up in Congress, and he disappeared from the public eye amidst rumors of being a communist spy - though he remained a union activist for the film industry. I read sometime in the late 60's that he had organized people within the film community to 'ghost' for black-listed brethern and sistern, splitting the proceeds under the table to keep the black-listed working, and had something to do with an artists enclave in Mexico where black-listed folks could work in peace, funded in part by donations. Always seemed a shame to me that he did so much for black-listed writers - but as a blacklisted actor, could do nothing about his own situation (hard to 'ghost' a role). It's not too loopy a connection to HE.. Seems to be pretty direct.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Brighton, MI - Friday, December 06, 1996 at 09:47:06 (CST)

Now this is totally cool! GREAT idea *BARNEY* (and the right bait always helps - you into fishing??). Paul Muni was a film actor/director/writer and union activist in the 40's and 50's, best known as an actor - can't imagine what the connection to HE might have been... Maybe just somebody HE ran into on a picket line??.. Nawww.. Then Ronnie Reagan would be on the list... };-)~ ... *PHILLIP* Sorry. I haven't got anything to add on the HE dreams thread. I don't think HE's ever had a guest appearance in my dreams. And I do remember my dreams - well, at least the last one before I wake up. Current research suggests we dream in 60-90 minute cycles throughout the night, so for the average healthy person there are 4 to 8 dreams every night. I guess, if I put HE first in my dreams, and don't interupt, I wouldn't remember.. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that people 'solve' and 'resolve' things that bother them in their dreams.. And it's nice to know that you are dreaming - since absence of dreams is a symptom of several severe psychosis, and repression of dream sleep (REM) is a disorder in it's own right. We always knew the dreamers were healthier people... (:-)... *ALL* Got all balled up in Christmas stuff the past few days. We got our first wrapped gift in the mail Monday, which meant I had to get the decorations up so there would be a tree to put it under. And if I put up the tree, well.. I might as well do the whole house (we do the inside with lights, garlands, ornaments, and all kinds of cool, shiny, glittery stuff, so it looks like you're inside the Christmas tree). And since that is a major undertaking (30 hrs. this time), why not just polish it all off, and do the Christmas cards too.. So as you read this, the cards are on their way, and I have only a little shopping left for Christmas. Which makes me happy. And *BARNEY*, the dogs and I went in for shots (need to have a certificate for the dog licenses before the first of the year), so it's legal if I bite.. But not too likely. I think I worked off the crabbies getting the Christmas stuff done. And that last leg of mailperson was tasty... really satisfied... ];-)... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip
- Friday, December 06, 1996 at 08:02:32 (CST)

"Earth Copyright Day 7 by Cordwainer Bird." That sounds familar.

Jason <No offense intend, but f*ck Xmas>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 23:31:56 (CST)

Been busy but the lure of free stuff has brought me back to typing. Don't have the time, but free stuff is free stuff and a good deed is a good deed. Zenger did indeed have a press although I don't think the revolutionary war had anything particular to do with it. He was sued for libel or slander, was accquitted when the jury decided that his stroies were based on facts. This set precedents for cases of libel or slander whatever it was he was sued on. And was important in establishing the freedom of the press. Freedom of the press is the HE connection something he believes in deeply I'm sure. Since Keegan already mention him and I'm just clarifing I claim Mulligan, and will go again. Alfred Krupp is the Cannon King he made high-quality steel cannons, guns, as well as non-lethal steel products was the called the founder of modern warfare or something like that. Why would HE want us to know about someone like that you ask? Hold on gentle readers I'll explain. As I was taught by my history teacher Krupp was also a pioneer in workers welfare, he had pension funds and burial funds, and he built his workers schools, hospitals etc...all of this in the early to mid 1800's. He was a good man, like HE, like me, like Barney. (Anyone else hear a kissing sound?) Phillip is an HE related dream good enough for you? I was climing Mount Kilimanjaro, (I know it was Mt. Kilimanjaro because you know things in dreams. Anyway while climbing I discovered this secret cave. Inside this secret cave was writing, one sentence copied out in every single language, i search through the cave until until I found english. I eventually did and I read it. It said; Earth Copyright Day 7 by Cordwainer Bird. That pretty much sums up my world view. now I have to get back to work Jason

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
[and the excitement builds...], - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 21:06:38 (CST)

Bile is the only person to sort of respond to my previous posting, but what the hell; there's not much else going on. Here it is: I've had another Harlan Ellison dream. In the last dream I was playing basketball with HE and William Wharton (author of BIRDY, A MIDNIGHT CLEAR, DAD and so on). Not much happened. This time I'm leaning against a log on my favourite beach in Nova Scotia with my ass molded comfortably into the sand. I'm doing what I usally do at the beach: either reading or writing, maybe both. It's a nice cool day, the sky is blue (yes, I dream in technicolor), Jake, my old dog, is very uncharacteristically jumping through the waves. I'm looking down at my book or my writing pad when I hear a voice say, "What the hell's your problem?" I look up and it's Harlan, standing there naked (like in one of the Dream Corridors). I can see a black mark going up the length of the inside of his leg and a big zipper-like scar going from nipple to nipple. (It's like recognizing Krusty the Clown---it *is* you!) I tell him that I miss my old dog. HE's says, "That dog?" I say, "No. The dog I had when I was a kid." So Harlan sits down and we start talking, except when he sit down, we're not on the beach anymore. We're still by the ocean, but we're high up on a cliff looking down on the water smashing into the rocks. We've got our legs dangling over the edge. We're sitting on grass. Anyhow, HE tells me how his dog got gassed when he was a kid, how he's been angry ever since---the defining moment of his life. I tell him how I've never experienced any such defining moment. My dog ran away when I was 10, and I missed him so bad that it made me cry for years; I always felt sad about it. And when I still think about him (my old dog), I get can pretty choked up. Then Harlan says, "Well, there you go! That's probably the most profound thing you ever felt when you were a kid. You felt sad when your dog never came back. So for the rest of your life, whenever you felt sad, you'd feel ever *more* sad, because you never let go of those feelings you had for your dog. That's love, kiddo." ---There may have been more to it (I think there was), but that's the best I can remember. I woke up feeling happy and sad at the same time. Kinda neat, except that the implication is, the defining moment of my life was a sad moment. I know I'm not angry and hot-blooded, so I guess that leaves me as a sad person. Sheesh. What a gyp. I'll try to get angry for now on (it seems to have worked alright for Harlan).... (P.S. to *BILL*: the "Bile" was just a joke.)

keegan
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 18:45:16 (CST)

Ooops! Sorry, everyone. I just get so EXCITED by this stuff (now, where did that life get to...?). :>)

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:56:36 (CST)

Keegan! Another great post. However, please, one to a customer. Save some for the poor souls who don't come to the watering hole every 20 minutes. Still, this is tasty fun. I am just informed from the sidelines that Babe Zaharias used to cut all the excess rubber from the soles of her shoes to run faster. So far we have qualities like bucking the tide, standing up for ones principles and single minded dedication. Hmmmm. No connection there. I'll try not to interrupt every time from here on out. Later.

keegan <keegan @lightlink.com>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:31:28 (CST)

Hey, Barney! Fun! Um, let me start with the musicians 'cause they're the only ones I know off the top of my head: Bix Beiderbeck was a famous jazz trumpet player. He was born in Davenport, Iowa and was also a fine pianist and composer. He is considered by many historians to be the first white innovator in jazz music. He was an alcoholic and died young (in his 20's; I believe 27). June Christy was a singer, most famous for her stint with the Stan Kenton Orchestra. She was a white singer with a classy and sassy style. Baby Dodds was a drummer from New Orleans and I believe that both he and his brother Johnny Dodds played in Louis Armstrong's early bands. Babe Zaharias was a famous female athlete, one of the most well-rounded of the 20th century. John Peter Zenger....hmmm....didn't he have a press and get into some trouble during the Revolutionary War. Not sure about that last one, could have been another row with the British like the War of 1812. OOH! I hope others answer. I love this trivia stuff!!!

Barney <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:29:11 (CST)

Yes! Mason takes the lead and we're off and running! De-lurk. We don't bite. Except for Sue. :-]

Mason
KoP, PA USA - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:19:00 (CST)

Well...tempting as it is to make a public ass of one's self (Hetty Green a singer or an actress?), and enjoying the preponderance of jazz players on the list (Ellison has a slightly unfair advantage over those of us born at the end of the Boom and later, when it comes to some of these names...we're just less likely to have heard of Babe Dietrich Zaharias unless we saw a certain TV movie in the mid '70s)...but so as to not hog half the list (at best), I'll mention Herbert Marcuse as most famously author of ONE-DIMENSIONAL MAN, an old Communist (ex-Communist Jerry Pournelle would insist "Stalinist-apologist"--see DREAM MAKERS 2 ((if that's not a forbidden document on this page))--and who's to say that Pournelle's mistaken in this?) who, most dearly to my own heart, was mocked by the Communards of the Paris General Strike in 1968, many of them anarchists and protoGreens and not too patient with a boring old flatulence of a Leninist, stalking about telling them how they'd gone Too Far.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 14:04:26 (CST)

[see previous post or this will be meaningless] THE EDGEWORKS VOLUME 2. SWEEPSTAKES TaDah! I know few people are motivated by the quest for KNOWLEDGE and so I will throw in a free copy of the F+SF issue that has the 1st app. of Harlan's "The Deathbird" as an incentive free to whoever has the best post. Decision will be based on neatness, perception, thoughtfulness, loopiness of connection to Harlan, and this readers blood sugar.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 13:53:32 (CST)

Hey folks. I've got a thread. Or a game we can play that will make all of us (or at least me) just a wee bit smarter. Last year, when Harlan was in W. Virginia I showed him a notebook[s] I keep in which I have been sort of chronologizing and cross indexing his life and he spotted a list of names [Marvin Minsky was one] running down a page and he said "what's this?" I explained it was a list of people he referred to that I needed to find out more about. Some were context related and some I had simply drawn a blank on. I'm caught up on Minsky and Harlan ran down the list and filled me in on the rest. Editors,friends,artists,wives,etc. One he was stumped on which was rather amusing to both of us. At any rate, I'm reading the new introduction and on page XVI and XVII he's making fun of people who come late and haven't got a clue with regard to culture/history. Part of me laughed and part of me felt like I had a bullseye painted on my forehead. The list, or catalog is as follows...Bix Beiderbecke / Herbert Marcuse / Alexander Katensky / Alfred Krupp / Florence Mills / Lucy Terry /June Christy / Hetty Green / Clarice Cliff / Babe Zaharias / Baby Dodds / Paul Muni / and a bonus John Peter Zenger. What I'd like is for people here to pick a name and tell me [briefly] who these people are. 2 I know. Maybe 3. The rest I am at a loss. I'm not asking anybody here to do homework for me. I read for pleasure these days. I just thought it would be a fun way for those of us carrying trivia around in our heads to do a core dump while staying marginally on topic. I volunteer to do whoever we all draw a blank on.Geniuses, please, one to a customer. If we get a complete stumper I'll call him and ask who the hell is that. Then, BUNGEE JUMPING! Sure, I feel stupid, but then he does have a mumblemumble year head start. C'mon people, de-lurk and help a great cause!

Jon Stewart <Not Applicable>
Albany, NY USA - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 11:54:25 (CST)

Very interesting site. Shocked to hear that HE was sick (no news rec'd here until today 12/2/96 (way out of touch), but glad he is better. Remember once at a convention (about 17 years ago) Mr. Ellison was trying to impersonate some other author like Poul Anderson. Even signed his name as Poul Anderson. very funny at the time...

Todd Mason <unsure>
King of Prussia, PA USA - Wednesday, December 04, 1996 at 14:45:57 (CST)

Mr. Ellison has an announcement of a visit to the Thousand Oaks Borders. I know he's a firm proponent of the Writers' Guild, maybe not so enthusiastic about some other unions, but I refer everyone to Michael Moore's (ROGER & ME, TV NATION, DOWNSIZE THIS) column in the penultimate issue of THE NATION, wherein he describes his apparent banning from Borders stores for daring, with Borders' hierarchy's permission, to attempt to deal in an evenhanded way with Borders attempts to bust unionization efforts in Philadelphia and elsewhere. As a former Borders Office Manager, I can attest that Borders is in the thrall of some petty dictators.

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Steak City, UT - Tuesday, December 03, 1996 at 10:40:12 (CST)

Phillip, I apologize for dropping an "l" from your name in my previous append. Just refer to me as "Bil" a few times in the future (or "Bile" if you're feeling particularly bitter) and we'll call it even, okay?

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Stink City, You-tah - Tuesday, December 03, 1996 at 10:24:41 (CST)

Philip, I had a dream about HE a few weeks ago. Problem is, the dream was most likely all too realistic. I had designed and built a wooden display case which would be exactly the right size to contain all 20 volumes of Edgeworks, and I was in a room trying to convince HE how great it was. Unfortunately, he was totally unimpressed with both my project and with me. Somehow, I get the feeling that if I ever did meet HE in a non-REM realm, he would find me equally unimpressive. Recent research indicates that dreams are a survival mechanism, helping us sort through the vast amount of information we receive daily and putting it to a "staying-alive" use in our brains. Maybe I should heed the advice my dreams are trying to tell me and steer clear of meeting HE in person--if I want my ego to survive unscathed, that is. -- Billy D.

keegan
- Monday, December 02, 1996 at 17:58:19 (CST)

My husband loves me! Today, I arrived home from school to find the Dream Corridors Special and a sweet note on my computer. What a nice surprise! Yes, Sue, the kids felt very proud to be teevee stars. We got a chance to talk about the concept of the "sound byte" today when they realized that the news didn't broadcast every note or word of what we sang or said. Talked about how the teevee news rarely shows the "whole" story since they are constrained by time limitations. And, no, I wasn't scat singing as I schlepped, but my teeth were chatterin' up a Fascinatin' Rhythm! BTW, Steve, congrats on the thesis nearly finished. My turn'll be coming up--oh-- in the next two years or so (that, or the State of New York won't let me teach any more!). Take care, all!

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Monday, December 02, 1996 at 16:47:34 (CST)

*SUE* In short, Vi failed her test, and doesn't want me blabbing any more about it. :P In the meanwhile, my thesis is nnow in its finishing stages, with the vast majority of the draft written, and only some diagrams and maybe another theorem or two to add. Turkey Day was great, despite noisy nephews, and now the Christmas season rears its head. Must find a way to make sure an Xmas card gets to Perth, and one to Sydney, this year BEFORE the bloody holiday.... :) Still trying to find the time to read Edgeworks II. Maybe after Finals....

Sue Luesse
burrrrurp, Aaahhhh - - Monday, December 02, 1996 at 10:32:16 (CST)

Had a good Thanksgiving. All the kids came over, everyone brought a delicacy, and we spent most of the afternoon and evening disposing of the evidence while watching fuhbah on TV (now, that is a *good* use of TV), and talking between the good plays. It warmed up, so our snow disappeared in a drizzly rain. And yes, I'm having second thoughts about putting the bike down for a winter nap. Especially since the back-up piece of crap is being persnickety.. And so it's on the the Big One (holiday-wise). Christmas cards to mail, presents to buy (and excuses for them being 'low-end' expenditures to be thought of to make), house and tree to decorate.. Always something.. I like Christmas.. really I do.. It's just so much work.. Guess the measure of how much I like it, is that I do it every year.. bellyaching every step of the way.. Hey! That's my 'style'.. And there's a lot of energy generated by a good bitching session.. Ask me.. Been thinking about those long drives and adverse weather reports posted here, and decided there is a lot to be said for the Lake Effect.. and being a homebody.. Guess I don't need a life quite that much. *STEVE* how'd Vi do on the drivers thing?? I have my first bike license plate on the wall (OK, OK.. It's not Art, but *I* like it - it speaks to me), and since I see it every time I sit down at the 'puter, I can't help but be reminded.. *KEEGAN* Big Congratulations on your Public Broadcast! Bet the kids didn't think it was 'no big deal'.. I have such a vivid image of you sliding along, laden with odd baggage, in your teal dress.. I've got to know - were you doing scat sound effects? Puts me in mind of the old 'plate-spinning-on-a-stick' act.. What ever happened to that? Never see it anymore, and it is so deeply symbolic of life as we know it, it surely must be some kind of art.. Well, I've got bitchin' and moaning to do, to get up enough steam to start decorating, writing cards, and such.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
Jesus, Birdy, - Friday, November 29, 1996 at 07:30:10 (CST)

I had a dream last night that I was playing basketball with William Wharton and Harlan Ellison. Man, what a dream. Anybody else have any HE (or WW) dreams?

Sue Luesse
It's Big Bird Day, - Thursday, November 28, 1996 at 11:58:28 (CST)

Happy Thanksgiving!! Off to do the turkey thing, and gobble-gobble..

keegan
- Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:36:35 (CST)

Hey, Steve- good to see ya! (WM, that howl was a good idea. Good to hear folks howlin' back.) It snowed like crazy today and I found myself carrying around a guitar, a briefcase stuffed with makeup, shoes and tunes; a shopping bag full of sleighbells and wood blocks; a conga drum, *and* a cup of coffee. It was true trial by ice but I sailed through (on slick cowboy boots). The news crew (local cable-nothin' big) I invited actually showed up. My students were happy, focused, and groovin' and I looked relatively stunning in the teal velvet dress I bought for fifteen bills this summer. A trying, but good day. Another little bit of folky rhetoric from Maine: If you can't take the winter, you don't deserve the summer. I took it well today, but the *big* question is: What'll it look like in March????? Anyway....it's *that* time again. NO. Not *that* time, but *holiday* time. I'm up for mellow this year. As long as I find Ellison in my stocking, the dysfunction should hold at a dull roar (like you care -/;^) ). Cheers!

Steve again
- Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:11:55 (CST)

Some stuff about winter weather: I was born and raised in Syracuse, and spent an awful lot of time living/driving in the Lake Ontario Snow Belt (tm). To give you guys an idea of what it's like: do you remember the huge snowstorm in '93 that whalloped the Northeast part of this country, dumping obscene amounts of snow everywhere? In my wife's home town (Orwell, NY, have fun finding it on a map just east of Oswego, off I-81), they got about 50 inches of snow overnight, and people came out the next morning and said "I thought there was supposed to be some big snowstorm coming through." :) Suffice it to say I love snow, hate summer (I overheat very easily), and I look forward to winter every year, most especially beause the raisins stay home and don't clog the highways with their random-braking, no-signal-lights, mayhem driving. If there's more than an inch of snow on the ground I'm never late to work. :)

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:04:55 (CST)

Heya, WM. Sorry I haven't surfaced here in so long -- I've been pounding the keys typing out my thesis, and have not even had time to read most of the stuff here, much less respond. :P But of course, tonight I pop in for a second, and voila! there's my name in someone's post. :) In short, I work a pair of (teaching) jobs, and on most days of the week it isn't feasible to go straight from the first to the second, so I end up driving from Endicott to the far side of Binghamton (about 15-20 miles) and then back again, and then later to Vestal (about 7 miles through winding back streets laden with imbeciles who think that having a driver's license gives them free rein to regulate traffic by driving 20mph on a 2-lane no-passing road when there's only one person around, that being me, behind them, honking my horn on occasion, wondering if the half-hour buffer I gave myself to get to work was sufficient. But, of course, I digress.) and back, occasionally with a trip to Johnson City (7 miles each way) to get my wife from work thrown in for good measure. It doesn't top your 120, but I often spend 2 hours a day behind the wheel. BTW, Vi is taking her driver's test tomorrow (FINALLY), so if anyone could wish her luck, she'd appreciate it... :)

Sue Luesse <jaluesse.htonline.com>
Home at last, Home at last! Thank Gawd Ahmighty I home at last! - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 11:49:25 (CST)

Don't ask. I'm sure that the therapy and pills will relieve any lingering evidence of the episode...{;-)... And let that be a lesson to everyone about wayward relatives, and the 'honor' of being the designated family memeber sent to sign off family responsibility.. Sssigghhh.. Came home to a coupla inches of snow and cold - and glad to be back. I checked the Sci-Fi Dominion Buzz thingus, and there is a new one.. Could it be Webderland referred to??? ..snicker.. And what's the deal with Slippage? On TV HE is pumping it like it's gathering dust on the bookshelves and needs a push into our hands - but none of the local stores even have a date for it yet (other than generic next Spring).. Haven't gotten around to Edgeworks 2 yet. Still stowing the garbage from the trip. But would welcome a word or two from anyone about it.. So read faster, willya?? Geeezzz... I'm gonna hafta schlepp on down and _buy_ it to find out anything at this rate.. Dontcha know anticipation is half the fun?? Don't let me down - pull your weight and give me fodder.. *KEEGAN* yup. I'm back. I hear soaking in vinegar will take care of that unwanted 'extra thingie'.. And did you ever get your ceegar?? *WOLFMISTRESS* Bummer. Miss your voice here. Long commutes suck (blow?? bite?? It's one of those).. Hope a fortuitous circumstance breaks your way, and your are 'restored' to us. Sounds like a 'fallen woman' redemption plot, doesn't it??... (;-) ... *BARNEY* You've done your evil, dark deed well.. I am consumed with jealousy and envy. Think I'll watch those movies I recommended myself - need the laugh - and then I'll be strong enough to deal with what Must Be Done revenge-wise.. HaaaHaHaHaaaaH! A bastardized sequel to Driving the Spikes... With source material from real life..... Aaahhhh, shoot.. I can't do it. You have just dodged a terrible fate, due solely to my inability to write anything except crap.. The gods of Art are with you.. *ALL* Not really anything to say to all, since 'All' takes in a lot of L. Urker kin, whom I understand are prolific breeders...er...readers... But it seemed like a nice thing to do, acknowleging folks - and it is the kind of lame ending one expects from a hack.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe - And cook that roadkill at 250 degrees, two hours per pound, or the gristle is unbearable...

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 07:36:16 (CST)

It's the calm before the holiday storm. Nothing happening here other then I had the opportunity to take in the Hal Holbrook' Evening With Mark Twain. Now, some of you may remember the old Hallmark specials that featured this, in which case your attitude may be "been there, done that" but it's different. That was the "young man" material. Twain outlived two wives and most of his children. It changed him drastically toward the end. Holbrook is doing the Gods Fool/Letters From the Earth material. It's f**king brilliant. Some people treat Holbrook like it's another Hello Dolly revival but it's anything but. Holbrook now has over 20 hours of material at his command and there are no klinkers. I cannot help but admire someone who has given there whole life (35+ years) in the service of giving this culture a sense of who Twain was. OK, my soapbox is straining. By the way, if anybody thinks this is off topic, go read more Harlan. Then read the travel writings of Twain. Go. Now.

keegan
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 22:19:03 (CST)

Yup. Good advice, WM. Being roadkill's no good. On the other hand, *scoring* roadkill might feed the fam'ly through the winter. As they say in Maine, you kill it--gotta grill it. Eat the venison if it doesn't kill you first--deer are everywhere!! Nothin' much to hit 'round here 'cept deer. I got nothing to talk about really. Got a big concert at school tomorrow. It's only 12 miles away but it's darn close to Podunk (nudge, nudge, wink, wink Luesse!) and the driving can get *pret-ty tric-ky*. Hopefully, it'll just be months of the usual Ithaca slush--relatively easy to drive in, but messy, messy, messy!

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Edge of Fromever...., - Monday, November 25, 1996 at 18:16:21 (CST)

YO! If anyone cared, I'm still alive and kicking something under the desk here....Just overwhelmed with work and the 120-miles a day drive to and from. I think Steve Pagano mentioned he had a similar drive way back there, somewhere. **STEVE** -- if you're still out there (and not lost in a snowdrift), how long is your drive and where from/to??? Anyone up for discussion is has the winter blahs settled in already??? What were we talking about before? Wanna talk about something else??? Wanna talk at **all**? Gotta get the Vol. 2 of Edgeworks; my regular place is only open late one night a week, I think. I've got to drive by and check the sign on the door..... Take care, all. If you're heading into bad weather, drive safely. Better to be late than roadkill....

keegan
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 17:56:44 (CST)

oh, yeah.... the laughs never stop. har har har. Hey, Sue--you back yet? Good trip?

L. Urker
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 17:43:09 (CST)

Wow, isn't this exciting.

todd haney <theltae@mindspring.com>
charlotte, nc usa - Thursday, November 21, 1996 at 22:17:45 (CST)

just to let any HE fans near Charlotte know that I've got a nice little HE endcap running for Nov. at Borders Books/Music [(704)-365-6261]. It has: EDGEWORKS 2--the latest WW release; EDGEWORKS 1--the one what come before; HE's DREAM CORRIDOR (collected) and DC QUARTERLY--thank GOD!; and THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON--the God-awful monster of a book whut's good ta read! if you happen to stop by, ask for Todd. I'll be glad to show you around. later, todd haney.

TCV
USA - Wednesday, November 20, 1996 at 16:03:58 (CST)

RE: EDGEWORKS 2. Yes. B & N has it.

Mrs. Claus <northernlightslink.com>
North Pole, NP Canada maybe? I prefer to call myself a World citizen - Wednesday, November 20, 1996 at 15:15:23 (CST)

Somebody please tell me that if my husband goes down to Waldenbooks he will be able to special order Edgeworks #2 for timely holiday delivery. We sat a hundred elves at typewriters (even gave a couple of 'em word processors) and they haven't turned out anything nearly as delicious as that Harlan Ellison guy has written on his worst day.........

Kostner <Bilbo@hobbit.hole.net>
Madison, Wisconsin, Confusion U S of A - Tuesday, November 19, 1996 at 23:53:20 (CST)

Has anyone been to the Harlan Ellison spot on the Sci Fi ( channel site recently. There hasn't been a new commentary by Ellison since he flamed the channel over their coverage of a major Science Fiction convention about a month ago. Could there be a connection? Just an observation.

Isis
Hillsdale, NJ USA - Monday, November 18, 1996 at 22:27:25 (CST)

There are many Harlan Ellisons!!! Love has many faces. Congratulations to all the invisible mentors who have imparted there wisdom to HE's embodiement. Keep up the good work! Love Isis

The Cinematic Voyeur <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
- Monday, November 18, 1996 at 19:51:22 (CST)

Oh, my. So many questions, so little time. Well, heck! That's what ANHEDONIA is for, folks! Come on! Work wid me already! Why the nome de plume (or whatever the heck it's called this week)? Well, it took me five years to get exactly one million people to respond to TCV in some form or fashion. I'd like to get the second million to respond in half that time so let's get out there and let others know I'm around!

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Monday, November 18, 1996 at 16:43:36 (CST)

Anybody lurking here get to this weeks signing? I just got the "cheat book" guide for the CD-ROM "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" game. It's actually rather amusing. I have the game but I've decided to give it to myself for Christmas in case I am non-plussed by the holiday pickings. My signed Edgeworks Volume 2 should be winging it's way to me even as I type. Bwahahahahahaha! Next mail order purchase? A life, of course!

keegan
- Friday, November 15, 1996 at 13:54:43 (CST)

Hey, Sue--happy trails! Safe travel and much fun to ya. And, hey--TCV--I'd be more than happy to take that ceeegar, but I ain't expectin' to grow one of those thingies that'll turn me into a MAN any day soon (and nope, no surgery neither)! I have been called "Butch", though. :>) Have I sufficiently slaughtered the language yet ( or at least wailed on that dead horse 'til it's GOOD and dead)? Bon weekend, folks, and if you're the type that hits the board without checking the mainpage regularly, check out News link. Updated today! Thanks, Rick.

Sue Luesse <I'm not here>
Fly on the wings of turkeys??, Sound like fun.. - Friday, November 15, 1996 at 12:40:33 (CST)

This is my final pre-flight post. I'll be offline, lost in the Real World of places no one has ever heard of, doing silly things, and having fun with other unknown 'real' people.. until the 25th.. If your e-mail gets bounced before then, it means I suddenly got popular and the InBox is full, or the sysopadmin whatever-he-is finally got even.. Fickle cyberspace.. *BARNEY* I want you to watch The Color Purple, The Deer Hunter, The Killing Fields, Brazil, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, and Easy Rider endlessly until I'm back.. Should guarantee that *anything* I have to tell about when I get back will sound like Fun - and you'll be strong enough to take it... ;-)~ ... *TCV* - what's up with the nom de plum?? And you should watch Barney while I'm gone - he could overdose on that stuff - I'll expect an in depth report of epic 'yoyoueristic' bent from you (people are SO much more interesting to 'peep' than commercial movies..especially if they are interesting people - besides, you might learn something).. The preparations for departure took a dipsy-doodle when the water-heater blew (Thar she be, Cap'n! A BIG-un!) - before I got the laundry done, of course.. It's all better now, and I am behind.. As usual.. But it did hone my flood skills, which might come in handy this time of year by the Gulf (where I am headed).. Nothing like a well trained guest.. Y'all be good, y'hear? And have a little fun, too.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe (and until I get back - Try High - Fly Safe - Drive Straight)

The Cinematic Voyeur
- Thursday, November 14, 1996 at 16:07:43 (CST)

Give theeee MAN a ceeegar for catching the deliberate misspelling!!! Thank god! I thought we had become a society of functional illiterates! Yayayayayayayaya [does the Opus the Penguin dance now] Until next time...

The WolfMistress <Olympus Mons>
- Thursday, November 14, 1996 at 10:48:28 (CST)

***TCV*** - I have no problem with enjoying a person's writing and/or opinions while still not agreeing with them. If my own curiosity is such, I don't care if The Creator said something is 'no good, don't waste your money', I will go anyway!! Sometimes I end up agreeing with the reviewers/critics; a lot of times I don't because I have my own take on whatever. When I said (countless times by now on this Board), I have an *open* mind, I meant exactly that. I will listen to anyone's pov about anything. What I do with it is my personal business. I can agree, disagree, or table it until further information is gathered. No insults or whatevers were intended by my remarks. Anyway, TCV, you're a member of the Family -- allowances have to be made! ;>) ;>)

JT <oak@leland.stanford.edu>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 21:46:56 (CST)

Kids, Slippage has slipped right off the edge of the world. Deeellllllaaaaaayed. 4 -6 weeks. Big Harlan unhappy with the book upon return from das publisher.

keegan
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 16:29:25 (CST)

"voyeur"....I love that word! Too bad about the mangled spelling....

The Cinematic Yoyeur
OZ, of course, - Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 16:12:53 (CST)

Wolfmistress: You don't agree with any critic or reviewer, huh? Just voeyurs like *MOI*? Hahahahahahahah --urp-- As The Man say, "Did you use enough dynamite, Butch?"

Sue Luesse
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 13:58:38 (CST)

Now *this* is Fun.. How about, "It's nice to be nice to the nice." A bit of witty reparte in the movie Start The Revolution Without Me - an oldy with a wealth of one-liners, if little artistic merit. Anybody got a good one from In God We Trust (Marty Feldman's last movie, lamentably as hard to find as he is, now that he's dead)..

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 11:10:21 (CST)

"Laughter is the shock-absorber of life." -- from some totally forgettable cable movie. But the line stuck.

Sue Luesse
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 11:05:09 (CST)

It's a great life when weakness laughs, and outlasts the hassles to enjoy living.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 09:47:54 (CST)

Fun. Who needs it? It's a good life if one does not weaken.

Keegan
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 22:21:22 (CST)

Lawd, Barney! Forget the popcorn and just pass the Prozac! Most of those referents were familiar...could that be where my sense of fun's got to? :)

Anakin O'Hara <jedi@ziplink.net>
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 21:51:49 (CST)

Keegan, Sue, Barney, thanks a lot, I hope to see you soon. Anakin

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 21:20:23 (CST)

Schindler's List Aguirre: the Wrath of God Fitzcaralldo Until the End of the World Berlin Alexanderplatz the Seventh Seal Tetsuo: the Iron Man the Elephant Man Eraserhead Every Man For Himself and God Against All You can bring popcorn but it won't help. You want to escape? There is no escape. The ground is cold and we're all just a handfull of dust. Happy viewing.

keegan
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 18:10:57 (CST)

WM: I was only half-joking about my chat-room phobia. Thanks for the suggestions. Some I've seen; others I haven't so now I have some ideas for Friday when the man says, "Well, whaddayou wanna watch this weekend?".

WolfMistress <Kicking the Paingod....>
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 17:39:09 (CST)

**Keegan** -- Just curious -- you were joking, right, when you said a chat room *scared* you????

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Local Funhouse..., - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 17:11:29 (CST)

**KEEGAN** -- Since I never got back to you with the Halloween stuff, I'll make up for it with movie stuff. I live in the movies, on the cable movies stations, or in the video store. I have an awesome collection of tapes, having bought just about every movie I've ever liked! ID4 will be out on November 22. They are asking people to reserve a copy with a small deposit ($1.99) if you want to buy it. Otherwise, pick it up (if you can) at the video store for the night. A few others from the last 4 years: The Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, Jurassic Park, Ghost, Mrs. Doubtfire (Robin Williams is to die for here!), Hook, Apollo 13, Rain Man (Dustin Hoffman is awesome), any of the Batman movies; (small independents) - Anything by the Merchant Ivory Group (Jefferson in Paris, Sense & Sensibility; The Coen Brothers (Miller's Crossing, Fargo; James & the Giant Peach (lovely story not just for kids), The Bridges of Madison County (Eastwood is tender as never seen before), if you don't mind the blood and gore, the Terminator movies, True Lies, Braveheart, Rob Roy, Pulp Fiction. Also for fun - Golden Eye (Pierce Brosnan is the sexiest Bond since Connery!). Yeah, try The Rock, too. You'll love it. More by e-mail if you want. And nevermind reviewers and critics. I haven't agreed with a critic or reviewer in 30 years!

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 16:06:36 (CST)

Hey, wait! I think I get it......fun! Why, there's a concept. At any rate, it would be a rental that'll make my man happy (it was one he mentioned *he* would like to see--"oh, that looks interesting" is about the extent of our cinema participation these days). Barney, I imagine if there's a buck or two-million to be made, they'll schlepp it out sooner or later. I don't get to the movies much. I tend to do concerts and our funds are limited. Only movies I've actually seen in a theater recently are kids' movies, "Toy Story" being the absolute best of those. In fact, I thought the plot was cool. It was....fun! A question: I haven't attended the movies regularly for about four years (the length of my sentence to motherhood so far). What movies of the last four years that I might have missed should I catch up on? What's your idea of an absolutely must see? Feel free to email with this info if you believe it's of no interest to anyone other than myself. Thanks!

Sue Luesse
If I lost a weekend, am I a lost child?? - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 14:46:16 (CST)

Been chewing on this 'critic' thingus.. Tastes like Preparation H, and looks like capers. What's wrong with things just being fun?? Not everything is supposed to be art. Motorcycles aren't art - but they sure are fun! Vacations aren't art - and nobody will argue about them being valuable and fun, if not necessary to mental health.. or turn one down.. So maybe ID4 isn't art. So what. If it's still fun, that has value. As for City On The Edge, I liked it when I saw it (don't ask, first TV run), but had that nagging feeling that there was a lot left out. Glad to hear that it wasn't a bit of underdone potato.. So, lessee - that's Edgeworks 2, Slippage, and City On The Edge vying for the next 'buy' that goes down.. Sssigghhh.. Things were easier when they came as manna from heaven at a used book store or garage sale one at a time.. Just snap up the Only Chance, and be done with it.. Now it's like trying to choose from the menu at a Chinese restaurant - I know what kind of meat I want, but there are too many choices to decide, because they are all good.. I think I need a nap. Maybe it will come to me in a dream.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Land of the Lost Idealists...., - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 13:46:09 (CST)

Somewhere below is my statement, in amongst others, that I happened to like ID4 very much. Yes, it was the old classic "Us against The Toadmen" plot. It was the **spin** they put on the plot, tho. But I'll not waste everyone's time by trying to open closed minds. It's a **dumb** idea, right? Why? Because Humanity is omnipotent in the Universe?? Because there is absolutely, positively no life out there that just might have the characteristics described in the movie?? Because it will never, ever, 100% surely never happen that something big enough to blot out the sun might appear some day and scare the bejeezus out of us?? Of course, there were holes in the plot, and a lot of the actions taken by various characters was totally over the top. That's not the point. IT WAS FUN!!!! For some of us, it was food for thot. But the point is it was FUN!! It was Saturday Matinee, B-movie wackiness for the sheer enjoyment of it!!! Why do you think it was such a hit?? Because there is very little in everyday life we can get really joyous about these days and ID4 served us up a doozy!! It was pure escape, period. And I for one, enjoyed the hell out of it! End of discussion on that topic! ;>)

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 13:42:15 (CST)

Hey Keegan, do you think somebody will pick up ID4 for release to video. I don't know... we had to wait a long time for "City of Lost Children"... Speaking of Star Trek (put that head of lettuce down!) I wanted to mention (for the other anal retentive Ellison collector - I know you are out there) there is a big TPB/squarebound magazine format thingee out there currently called "Star Trek: 30 Years Special Collectors Edition" which is apparently published by Paramount or Viacom. It's $9.99 and has no isdn or issn # that I could find. It has about a half a page on Harlan along with the best reproduction of the "sabre tooth photo" I've seen so far. Ironically, it's larger than the Roddenberry photo in the same section (hah!). If you already have any sort of concordance material it's fairly redundant, but as a quick overview of the whole phenomena I've seen plenty worse. Complete episode guide, etc. Hey Rick, does Leslie K. Swigart ever check in here? Later, Barney.

keegan
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 00:47:25 (CST)

Sorry, Anakin. It never ocurred to me that you were paying out bread for the chat room. I'm just not a chat kind of chick so I don't know a whole hell of a lot about how it works. I entered a HoT wIrEd chat room once and it scared me. Besides, now that I've been on the 'Net for over a year, the romance is over and I don't surf with the voracity I once did. Webderland, I love. I like to write these little meaningless messages in a bottle. But chat, hmmmmm, I'm just not sure, so I go through these avoidance behaviors. I'm sorry to have not shown up sooner. I'm just kind of jaded on the whole Internet thing these days. I've made one or two "Real" friends, and I've seen some neat stuff; I sure as hell know a lot more about Harlan Ellison, but the bloom is off the digital rose. I had grand dreams; but now I think it's just another toy. I'll come out and play, still. But play nice, 'cause my heart breaks easily......maybe that explains my chat fear; maybe not. **AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!! POSTING ON THE TOPIC OF A HARLAN ELLISON WORK!!!!** (ta-dah!). I just finished reading the script for "City on the Edge of Forever" and this is what I have to say: 1)thanks for the truth, HE. I sensed that the Rodenberry biography I read was full of shit. Good to have that sense confirmed (I'm talking about the "Star Trek Creator" book that virtually canonized Rodenberry). Don't start throwing stuff. I like Star Trek in general, but I have a peeve about those who try to make gods out of any human (and for the record, that even includes HE). 2)HE's story was far more colorful and meaningful than the aired version (which believe me, I loved, loved, loved before reading the script). I believe HE is right to believe that the strength of that episode is due to something that survived network neutering. After reading the script, I prefer the beautiful and ballsy images of the original. I can see why HE would want to forget the mutilation and move on. Since the mythmakers would not allow the controversy around "City" to die, I am pleased that Mr. Ellison was forthcoming with the script and the truth. I hope he sells copies in the millions. And BARNEY, as for Ellison using second- and third- hand info to blast ID4, well, yes...in a perfect world I guess Harlan would have written every single word of his fustigation himself. I got the idea that he was saying, "Hey, look--I know you all loved this thing but it wasn't that big a deal. See? These guys, including this guy who I can't pronounce, they feel pretty much the same way". Yeah, HE might castigate any one of us for pulling the same kind of shit, but hey, there's yet more evidence of Harlan's complete, unmitigated humanity! For the record: I didn't see ID4. I got wind of the plot, and being the civilly cynical type that I am, opted not to. No elitism here; just not interested in special fx and "rah-rah-kick-the- aliens'-butt type movies". *sigh* HE (and Peter David and Mr. Whoozit) tell me I made the right decision, but if somebody convinces me I'm culturally deprived, there's always video.....

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, Pa. USA - Sunday, November 10, 1996 at 09:58:23 (CST)

Anakin: Regarding the chat room. Speaking for myself, while I have nothing against chat forums, I only get over to Webderland about twice a week and this is my most obsessivly visited site on the net. I find I like to "walk away" from discussions that interest me and let them percolate before responding. This hardly lends itself to the immediacy of chat. I also sometimes feel (despite the evidence of # of hits and the posting of "get wells" this summer) that there are only 6-7 people keeping Webderland going as it is. It's not that I am ignoring this, I just don't have time to participate in any meaningful way. On the other hand, do chat rooms have an archive feature? Wouldn't mind catching up during some stupid ice storm! Speculative Fiction,science fiction, fantasy,sci-fi,scientifiction, Folks, I gotta say this "arguement"/ "discussion"/ exchange of ideas bores the *ss off me. And I am not saying this out of any feelings regarding the participants to date. Crack open any anthology from this genre from 1945-1970 and the editor spends the first few paragraphs defining the genre or deferring to someone elses definition and the rest of the intro. trying to justify it's existence. Boring It's simply the 20th century lit. equivalent of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". Yesterday I encountered this conundrum in person at an antiquarian bookstore where one of the customers ( a univ. prof. who taught spec. fic.) thought we ought to seperate the fantsy from Science fiction (he thought I worked there/ happens all the time). He felt one of these genres was inherintly superior to the other but it doesn't pertain to this discussion. I quickly stumped him with about 10 examples from the Lovecraft/Derelith/Dunsany/Clark Ashton Smith/Bloch/Bradbury category. It was fun and easy. MY point is that the (Swiftian) solution would be to put it all in alphabetical order by author with spine/genre designation prohibited and let it all sink or swim on its own merits. I know, I'm just another one of those whacked in the head utopians. On another front, since it's been over a week since I said something regarding Harlan, I thought I would take this opportunity to shoot myself in the other foot so when he decides to kick me to death I wont be able to run. Today's sci-fi buzz editorial on ID4. I watched it and chuckled in agreement with every single point that was made concerning the DUMBNESS of this movie. Allow me to say here that one can enjoy dumb things. One simply has to lower ones expectations. But here is what bugged me. First of all, he lets Peter David's column do all the work for him. I could be a brilliant critic if I were allowed to read John Simon on television the next day. I suspect Harlan's justification would be, one hardly has to bring all of ones critical faculties to bear to trash a film as simple as ID4 and in that regard he would be correct. But in the process of doing this he uses the work of someone who is already being quoted in Peter David's column. Now we have a third hand source and Harlan isn't even sure how to say his name. I thought this was a real lapse from someone who uses epigraphs as liberally as he does and who I have witnessed upbraid other people (hell, other Writers) for getting even part of a quote wrong.Surely Harlan can appreciate the notion of credit-where-credit-is-due. Especially when someone else did his work for him. Expecting to die a harder death than Rasputin, Barney Dannelke (HERC #1)

Anakin O'Hara <MSkywalker@hotmail.com>
A Galaxy, far, far, away, Jedi Academy Yavin IV - Saturday, November 09, 1996 at 00:54:11 (CST)

Hi Guys, can you listen to me for a moment? I feel like I'm being ignored, what is it? Is it Star Wars? Well, Harlan did like Empire. I set up the chat room to be like the nice person, that I am, but it seems, no one is coming in and chatting? Is it me, what did I do that was so wrong? Maybe I should stop being nice and pull it, because I am paying $25.00 a month for ten people, to rent that room. I don't know what I'm going to do, ok here's the deal, anyone who wants the chat room to stay, or anyone who thinks it's a waste of time and money, please E-Mail me. Oh what's the use, I'm going to be ignored again anyway. I hope I didn't upset anyone, but I'm very upset myself and I don't know what the Hell to do.

keegan
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 23:15:50 (CST)

Jason-thanks for the explanation about where your melody/harmony thing cames from. Now you know why they say the things they say about singers. :) As for the fanboy thing, it just seems to me that you're too het-up about this skiffy thing. After all, I personally don't care where the bookstore shelves HE as long as I can find him at all. Sometimes, *I* think he belongs in the poetry section. In a way, that's a battle for writers to fight, not me. I just want to read decent stories. I know that in this conversation, I was initially frustrated (no pun intended) by your use of sf/SF/science fiction. The capital v. lower-case letters were meaningless to me (much as chord symbols and orchestral scores might be to you). I didn't have much to go by, but was interested in your question, so I put out my two cents in a general way. Next post from you says, "Whoa" and just confused me further. I've really been trying to understand, but quite frankly, I don't find the topic of genre all that compelling. The antagonistic tone that slowly crept into posts further turned me off. I had to reply to the music thing simply because it was a parallel to the "hairsplitting" you seemed to be attempting to do with books. The only judgement I have to make is that you didn't express your original question in clearly understandable english (at least not to me, since I'm barely a fan--call me a wannabe if it makes you feel better). I think some of us tried to engage in conversation, but you were unsuccessful in really bringing your point across to us. BTW: what *was* your point?

Jason
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 22:25:04 (CST)

Keegan, I personally don't know that much about music. I asked my friend who sings in a choir and studied opera for an illogical sentence using musical terms, and that's what he said. Nothing else I can say. No rhetoric just facts. I never claimed "hit an opponent hard enough..." is my philosophy, it is a strategy for winning a debate. A debate is a formalized discussion where there is a winner. I never said this was a debate. I never said Nazi fascism and neither did Rick. Fascism is the wrong word anyway. And we weren't complaining because people were divided into two groups, that's a common thing for people to do. (the old joke being, I believe there are two groups of people, those that divide people into two groups and those who don't) the complaint was that Rick felt that Sue was advocating that artists should seperated from the general populace and treated differently and to him and me unfairly because of their differences. For me that resonated with what the Nazi's did. My post is on the third of September if you want to read it. Although I'm not sure how it applies to the current discussion. I never judged a writer calling him/her a hack writer. I have expressed an opinion on a piece of of work that has been produced, and I have found it faulty, and flawed. I make no judgements as to the abilities of a writer on the basis of one story or screenplay. The only emotion I have with regards to the discussion is my growing frustration that my point is not coming across. I did not create that definition of sci-fi, I called it my definition because it is not a universal definition, but there several who share it, I said to Rob Saywer I think there is s-f and there is sci-fi, and he understood what I'd said, I had said the same thing to my science fiction proffessor and he understood what I'd said, and further conversation confirmed that we were on the same page, so to speak. I was under the belief the topic was my definition, and the problems people had with it, and therefore I did stick to the discussion. I am not proud of being one of those people who comes under rule 10. I did in fact apologize for being one of those people. I will say this however, where would the world be if there weren't people around who threw logic and reasoning out the window and dared to fight the impossible fight? When I used that reference I meant that there are some things I cannot let go of, because I cannot shake the feeling that doing so would be wrong. I never said I was just like HE. Nor did I intimate that point. I do not intentionaly attack anyone personally, I am attacking what are paralogical arguments. I will end this with two questions; One, how do I fit the profile of a Xenogenistic fanboy? And two, who is being judgemental against who? Jason

Sue Luesse <let's not>
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 13:20:04 (CST)

Unca Harlans advises us to challenge what is unacceptable rather than let silence be mistaken for agreement and/or support. With that in mind, I write this once, so it will be clear what is unacceptable and why. Recent 'discussions' have a familiar ring to them. A discussion of Artist Rights rolls into yet another installment of Jason's rant against 'crap', and results in a flame-out of me.. Hmmm.. Deja vu? Flashback? Let's step into the Way-Back Machine, and check this out.. Yes, there it is - Sept. 2 - where Jason writes he gets 'pretty intense' rather than appologize for ugly personal attacks, and informs us his philosophy is "Hit an adversary hard enough they tend to stumble through the rebuttal and you're more likely to win the debate." That is a Might Makes Right statement, and not appropriate for a discussion forum, where the object is to share and learn from diverse opinions. There is nothing *to* 'win at any cost'. In a peculiar irony, the conlcuding statement of that post is Jason, speaking for Rick, explaining why the intense flame-out of me was warranted by the fact that dividing people into groups is Nazi Facism... specificly, dividing people into artists and hacks.. And it was a silly, justified, easily understood error that my stand AGAINST judgementalism of any sort was flamed for SUPPORTING it. Yes, the logic of that is clear as a bell.. And my conclusion is that there is no point in discussion with people adhering to a Win At Any Cost By Any Means philosophy - so I will not reply to the shotgun mudslinging of incoherant emotional bullying that is hurled at me with such gusto, with the sole intention of being 'right' and 'winning' (not to mention the self-proclaimed purpose of 'revenge' -though for what is completely obscure). I do respond to the philosophy. Negatively. If you want to be respected, respect others with at least as much respect as you give yourself. If you want to have an 'informed' opinion, research the facts, and include all of them in your opinion, using logic rather than emotion. If you want to be 'taken seriously', show the intellectual capacity to stick to the topic of discussion rather than 'create definitions' to further a lost cause, and accomodate more than a single POV, rather than attack what doesn't 'fit' an arbitrarily predetermined conclusion. If you think you are intelligent, show do it by exhibiting the attributes of open-mindedness, curiousity, tolerance, and acceptance rather than using emotional bullying and personal attack to silence any perceived opposition. And to the last statement made - yes, Jason, you are a number 10 on the Driving The Spikes measure - which is not something to be proud of. It means you are not subject to reason or logic in the pursuit of your 'win' and and 'revenge', because no amount of truth will penetrate or defer your chosen path. You choose to wrap yourself in a Fanboy mantle of misapproriated phrases scavenged from Ellison's writing and misinterpreted to justify yourself as being 'just like HE'.. And you expect everyone else to treat you as they would Ellison, as if you were peers. But you are unlike Ellison in all the important ways. Ellison wrote a famous essay on fanboys - Xenogenisis. You fit the profile. I have said all I am going to on this. If you don't like it - learn to use the e-mail. I put it in the public forum, this time only, because it is the stage for your performances.

keegan
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 22:36:25 (CST)

Jason-Harmony and melody can be combined. Melody can be sung or played alone and may imply harmony or be atonal. Harmony can be played alone, in block chords without an apparent melody. A melody may then be combined with that harmony, either consonantly or dissonantly for specific musical effects (music is a series of tensions created and released). When I scat sing, I combine the melodic ideas from my mind with the harmonic ideas generated by the rhythm section. You wanna split hairs? Okay. I'll split a couple of my own and all is fair. Don't like my take on the word "combined"? Music is an abstract phenomena and I can use any words that work to describe it. It's kind of like dancing about math.

Jason
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 21:50:05 (CST)

The sentence in the previous post that reads 'By the I did offer substansiate my judgement Sue... Should read By the way I did offer at substansiating my Judgement. Sue... It was an insert that got screwed up.

Jason <Let's try this again>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 21:31:12 (CST)

Sorry WM I hope this'll be over soon, but I'm one of those people that HE describes under Rule 10 in Driving in the Spikes. Sue pay attention to what I'm putting on the board, not what you THINK I'm putting on the board. I know sci-fi is a derogatory term, I use it as such, on an indvidual basis. If I think a story is crap, I call it crap. It just so happens that if the story was intended to be a science fiction story, I call it sci-fi. I have criteria for calling something crap or sci-fi, and I know whether or not it falls into the criteria that determines if something is crap or not. If I do not like a science fiction story, that does not mean it is crap or sci-fi. If I don't like something and call it sci-fi, then I am calling sci-fi because it fits the criteria. Cliched and predictable plots, scientific illiteracies (a little more serious that innaccuracies, e.g. A Solar star) Etc... etc... The main response I seem to be getting is that most people are telling me a little inaccuracy is okay, did I ever say that it had to be perfect? Where did I say that? The example I used was negative proton molecules, whoever wrote that has no idea what a proton or a molecule is. Protons are by definition positive and they're subatomic particles, molecules are bonded atoms. Protons cannot be molecules. It's like saying I loved the way you combined the harmony and the melody. The story itself made as much sense as that statement. (To be fair about Lost in Space when it was made, a lot less was known about space travel. {I still don't think it was as tongue-in-cheek as you think it is WM} With all the information available today tv and movies don't have that excuse. Look I never mentioned H.G. Wells or Jules Verne or Shelley. I like their stories, because they are good storytellers. Don't defend stories I didn't attack. By the I did offer substantiate my judgement Sue how are these people supposed to respond and or learn from my criticism when it's likely that I will never have contact with these people? I'm am neither Siskel nor Ebert, it isn't my job, if however I want to warn a friend to save eight bucks i'll pass on what I learned. If I was a critic I'd do it differently, but I'm not so I ain't. Oh, and about HE's "Lack of credentials" That's not really my statement it's yours Sue. You said "If judgements just _have_ to be made about the artistic merit of a work, I prefer to accept those of the writers who have some personal, first hand, successful experience with the process of creating art. Like Harlan Ellison." By that rationale you would prefer to have someone who has has two screenplays produced into films judge the worthiness of a produced screenplay because Harlan has had only one. Also, by YOUR thought HE wouldn't be preferable to judge Novels compared to someone like Grisham or Rice or Bova or Pohl, because HE hasn't published a novel since 1961. A novel is a different art form than a short story trust me. I don't agree with this, this is the explanation of your statement. Also, you don't have to able to write a story to be able to tell a good story from bad, you just have to have read a lot of good stories and a lot of bad stories and know which story is which. I suggest reading this post carefully and twice before you try and flame me, and make sure you're flaming what I posted. I don't want to do this again but I will if I have to. Jason

DTS <Mark Twain's home state>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 17:06:30 (CST)

FYI: if any other of you "Dream Corridor" junkies are looking for HEDC Quarterly VOl. 2 -- Tim Tran (Dark Horse) says that it is "in the bucket" (whatever that means), but that no release date has been set. Out, here -- DTS

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Combing the March Hare...., - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 17:00:38 (CST)

I believe the discussion below started with Hugo Gernsbeck in the 1920's when he created a magazine that printed "scientifiction" stories. Prior to that time, the so-called 'genre' was populated by Mary Wallstonecroft Shelley, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Edgar Allen Poe, among others who gave no particular 'name' to their works -- they just wrote, period. I think this whole thing is more an offshoot of HE's personal and very passionate aversion to having his works categorized in **ANY** way. He crusaded for years to have them moved out of the 'SF' section of bookstores whether they called it speculative fiction, sci-fi, or sf -- HE didn't (and still doesn't) like having his work 'labelled' as anything other than the Work of Harlan Ellison. I am aware of the negative connotations 'sci-fi' has brought to the field as opposed to 'sf' or 'speculative fiction' even, but I pay about as much attention to it as I do critics' reviews, or derogatory labels of any kind. If a quick scan of a book catches my interest, I buy and read it, I don't care what you call it. I don't "suspend my disbelief"; I suspend my *Belief* - in the world as it is and/or has been proven to be up to that point where proof fails and certain things still remain. My mind is completely open to possibility when I am reading for enjoyment. Yes, I make mental note when a 'hard' science fact is totally trashed or a currently impossible one is presented as fact, but some are readily accepted by sci-fi & sf alike. Take faster-than-light travel -- every writer worth anything in the field has made use of FTL, even though the current state of physics claims it's impossible. 'Warp speed' is part of the American lexicon, whether we can achieve it or not. And it is accepted even among people who hate Star Trek! So, I guess my point is that you're both right in a way, depending on how you look at the stuff. It's a matter of opinion, like ID4. I know it was a classic plot, but it was a new way of doing it in my opinion. No, one alien invasion is not gonna make Humanity bond in the space of a day or two -- but it sure felt good when it was happening on-screen! It was a 'feel good' movie, not scientific gospel. I enjoyed it as much, but in a different way, from the way I enjoy Lost in Space reruns. I am old enough to appreciate the tongue-in-cheek humor that people mistook for seriousness back when. OK? Everybody still friends?? ;>)!

Sue Luesse
A rumble, I thought it was an empty tummy - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 16:17:31 (CST)

JASON - re-read your Ellison quote. It is exactly what I said in the first place. Sci-Fi is a perjorative term used to denigrate works. It is despised by writers BECAUSE it trivializes content and workmanship, without offering any concrete substantiation for the judgment. "Use it at your own peril," I believe was the advice given. Good advice. Make your arguements as you will to justify and rationalize - but the fact remains that every time you use Sci-Fi vs. s-f in voicing your opinions, you do exactly what HE and others would have you NOT do. You judge the artistic merit and quality of another persons work, without the honesty of legitimate criticism which they could possibly respond to or learn from. Somehow, I doubt that your informed opinion is of the caliber of Ellison's, regardless of his 'lack of credentials' in your eyes. I rather think you missed the mark badly on that call.

Jason <Let's get ready to Rrrruuuummmbllle>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 15:35:16 (CST)

An Edge in my Voice, Edgeworks vol. 1 Pg 195 "I'd like to point out to my readers that while the philological construct 'sci-fi' is in wide and common use, mostly for the convienience of bored city desk headline writers who save space and wearying cerebration with the five letters and hyphen, instead of the fourteen letters and mid-space of 'science fiction,' this is a label that many, of those of us who work in the genre, despise. They compare it calling a woman a 'broad,' a black man a 'nigger,' a Latino a 'spick' and a Jew a 'kike.' Use it at your peril." Sci-fi isn't a genre, at least not an intentional one. Sci-fi is failed science fiction. It is the film Outland, look at Edgeworks to see why. It is a film or story that doesn't allow for the suspension of disbelief, they came up with an explanation for why things can beamed, I can suspend my disbelief. I cannot suspend my disbelief on phrases like negative proton molecules. Sci-fi stories does not have good writing in my informed opinion. I'm lumping together all the movies and stories that fail to do what they should do and that is tell an interesting and enjoyable story. They do not achive verisilimitude. Sci-fi is the name I give to those stories. Like B-movies. *SUE* Why? All critics do that, they just use a number of stars or thumbs up or thumbs down. I never said it wasn't subjective, it's my informed opinion on what is a good story and what isn't. *Sue* according to your rationale, He can't critique films, because he only writes screenplays and isn't involved with the other aspects of film making like directing or acting. Plus he's only had one screenplay produced. I wouldn't call that successful, considering he's written several. Yes you feel better if your work is judged great by your peers. That doesn't mean the opinions of those who aren't your peers are necessarily invalid. Dos that clear things up a bit? Jason

Sue Luesse <jaluess@htonline.com>
I've gotta good one.., oops.. shoot.. I had a good one there - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 11:02:41 (CST)

Well, I went back and read your posts, *JASON*, where you state the purpose of Sci-Fi is to give s-f a bad reputation.. Nowhere is specualtive fiction mentioned (I included it, along with other variant forms in my response). It is rather bald to make a division between Sci-Fi and s-f based solely on *your* personal judgment of the literary merit of anothers work, and use the label Sci-Fi as an artistic garbage can. I don't think justifying the practise by citing guilty notables, or protesting authors is a good rationale, either. Authors are free to dicker with critics about terminology applied to their works. Substituting Sci-Fi for "crap", and s-f for "art", does not change the subjective judgements made about the quality and merit of a work. Most writers are well aware of the use of such euphemisms to disparage without reason, and respond to the hidden agenda. It is ridiculous for the reading public to accept such blatantly false labelling, when the writers have gone to such leangths to point out the hidden agenda and debunk it. If judgements just _have_ to be made about the artistic merits of a work, I prefer to accept those of the writers who have some personal, first hand, successful experience with the process of creating art. Like Harlan Ellison. Otherwise, it is just how much I enjoyed it for whatever silly reasons I have. Ditto for the rest of the Audience.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan <like a dog to vomit>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 21:24:26 (CST)

My husband and I were reading the Board together and talking about this sf/SF, skiffy-wiffy thang. First off, it wasn't just me. My husband was confused, too. Jason are your talking sci-fi v. SPEC Fi? I assume that's what you were saying, but it took me a while to figure out. That's one reason I answered so generally. The wittle wetters tax me wittle bwain. Seriously, though. It *was* confusing for one who's not such a "fanboy" in these things (don't bristle; I'm only using that term to express a point. I'm not passing any judgements or putting anyone down). Anyway, we were talking about it and I mentioned that good writing should invoke a suspension of disbelief. My man said, "Yeah. I don't find scientific improbabilities or impossibilities so annoying as I find inconsistencies *within* the framework of a story to be. For example, "beaming" in Star Trek just ain't gonna happen, but it's a consistent feature within the show's premise of future technologies so I can buy it". (okay, so he didn't word it *just* like that, but that was the jist of it). What do you think?

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 17:52:49 (CST)

**JASON** -- will do. Probably was after I left and before I came back. Will check Archives and get back to you. Thanks for the point in the right direction.

James C. Hess <104656.765@Compuserve.com>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:55:53 (CST)

This may have nothing to do with the thread we all are creating here about works in their various forms or it may have everything to do with it. FYI: As you may know I write a column on films, movies, and television. Have done so for almost six years. Anyway, short version here: The *50th* installment will soon be published and to note this occassion I have agreed to a special, limited edition of said installment. (Not to worry, you can find the regular installment Out There somewhere as well.) Contained in this collector's edition will be the 50th installment, the first installment of the said column every published, a series of never-before published interviews with yours truly, The Not-So Cuddly One, a new introduction especially written for this edition, and essays by those wacky Editor-God type persons who have put up with me and my writings through the years. This edition, being a limited edition, will consist of fifty copies ONLY. (No word on the mass-market possibility...yet.) Each of those copies will be numbered and signed by MOI. And all profits realized from this endeavor will be used to help fight illiteracy in the U.S. No pitchman hyperbole here, but the 5th Anniversay Edition SOLD OUT before it was released and this item will probably do the same, so first come first served. If y'all want to know more--price, release date, blah, blah, blah--e-mail me at the above address and I'll wing the particulars in your general direction. Now, to unfinished works left by their creators: Burn 'em. No one can know specifically what the creator had in mind when working on them and if they were any good they would have been finished by said creator before said creator passed on. Until next time... Jim

keegan
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:53:30 (CST)

Jason- I think that any critic who is trying to dismiss the genre of sci-fi because of hack writing is a hopeless hack themselves. That's such an outdated view that it could hardly be taken seriously (as the quote that appeared from Ray Bradbury makes clear). A book of any genre can be art or i