The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 07/03/96 to 08/05/96

Bill Dennis <Unclear, as usual>
- Monday, August 05, 1996 at 11:19:30 (CDT)

In my append about HE's appearance on NPR, I failed to make it clear that I heard only the final 50 seconds of the show, and that's why I was wondering if anyone had caught whole transmission. By the way, though NPR keeps "Morning Edition" in RealAudio(TM) format on its website, it does not have "Saturday Edition."
keegan
- Monday, August 05, 1996 at 08:53:14 (CDT)

Why, Jason, can it be you lost the trail in all my circuitous and parenthetical ramblings, dear? It must have been late. The IMO in parenthesis was simply my attempt to make sure that folks understand I was only expressing MY (learned and oh-so-sharp) observation that "Would You Do It for a Penny" is not the greatest story in the HE canon. There might be someone who thinks it's the greatet in the world, and they, of course, are entitled to their Opinion. The question I asked: Does anyone find that story, "Would You Do It For a Penny?" to be misogynist. I do not, but some folks (including HE) seem to think the story borders on poor taste. Thanks, all, for the housewarming wishes. I now have a ceiling and a huge plumbing bill. We told 'em what we tell all our creditors: "Get in line". I'm sure the plumbing and drywall bills will be paid long before our mortgage. What, me worry? Have a great week all! Hmmm...sychronicity. Makes me wanna listen to the Police.
Doc
In a spin, lovin' the spin I'm in,... - Monday, August 05, 1996 at 02:37:25 (CDT)

I would never dream of insisting that ANYone cater to my whims, or demands, but here's a quick checklist for anyone interested in knowing what I'd like to not discuss for a very long time: Numero Uno - the Olympics; Numero Two-o - the Olympics; Numero Three-o - the superiority of any country over any other country; Numero Four-o - the geneology of any person(s) who doesn't think America is tops; Numero Five-o - the Olympics. This getting to be constant harping, rapidly descending to "I Know You Are, But What Am I?" and "My Ambassador Can Beat-Up Your Ambassador." *Barney* glad you liked the line; I snitched it from a journalist named Molly Ivins, "dirtied" it up (she said, "Spit"), and find ample opportunities to use it myself, sometimes even out loud. *Sue* Are you by chance a friend of Bill and Dr. Bob? We might have mutual friends. *Keegan* congrats on your new house; BTW, "Move-In Condition" typically means that they are ready to move-in on you at the first sign of interest. *Whomever It Was* whre indeed is this new HE story to be found? I grant you, it might turn up in "Slippage," but a.) what if it don't, and b.) I should have to wait for "Slippage?" Do you know how long it's been since I found a new HE story BEFORE it found its way into a collection?!? *Jason* one guy gets caught, and the whole class suffers? C'mon, Canada's nice, I believe that, I ACCEPT that. I don't know who's back of the billboards, but it's farely typical merchandizing snottiness. I'm as interested in seeing the Olympics as I am in seeing Wimbleden (sp?) every year on HBO. I don't have cable, and don't watch alot of teevee, and I actually look foreward to missing the sports-a-thons. No golf, no bowling -- I want that stuff, I go do it myself. In the words of The Human Ton's little friend, Handy, "Read a book!" Speaking of books, anyone out there read _The Diamond Age_, by Neal Stephenson? Certainly willing to chat about THAT. Past my bedtime (it's always past my bedtime, these days, seems like,...), gotta go. Muchas Smooches, Doc
Jason <really surprised to see three posts since I started mine.>
- Monday, August 05, 1996 at 00:52:28 (CDT)

Immigration that's a universal fustration. Mine was fairly easy. Born in Japan like my father, Mother's British, became a citizen 9 years ago. Mine I remember to be fairly easy, after living here for over 12 years. My cousin's another story, He's been trying to get landed immigrant status for a five years now. His last real attempt to get in by marrying a Canadian crashed and burned when his fiancée had him arrested. (A tale I'll leave to when bad relationships alá Valerie comes up as a topic) They have an arrest warrant out for him because he didn't show up for a hearing in Februrary and therefore is in the country illegaly. The fact that they had made him leave the country two years ago, didn't register to the paper pushers. (Sigh) Keegan it's called synchronicity. (IMO which story is that?) Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow...
Jason <The three questions of Jason>
- Monday, August 05, 1996 at 00:27:24 (CDT)

Well I've just spent the day joining in the Canada's favourite pastime; relishing an American defeat at Canadian hands, or feet as it were. I'm speaking of the 4x100 metre relay. Replayed on every Canaidian station every hour, and in every newspaper. I'm curious missing the event myself, what was the reaction on NBC, I've heard stories about Bob Costas cheering for the Americans on camera, then blaming the loss on the fact that Carl Lewis didn't run the anchor, a statement which completely ignores the fact that Lewis hasn't run the 100 for a while, and hasn't qualified for it in a while. And I've read the quotes from Dennis 'I'm in denial' Mitchell who said "We were not defeated, we were not beaten, we were just second." I hope this doesn't come across rubbing it in, I want to know how NBC and the American media in general handled the defeat in the wake of the incredible rumor mill, not to mention the complete lack of respect the Canadian team recieved from the American media. Question #2 Is Reebok(?) the company responsible for the apperently offensive billboards I've read about in Atlanta? None of the articles I've read will name the company, but the do say that are not an official sponsor, and I've seen the Nike symbol around in my limited viewing. I'm asking because if they are I'm making it a point not to buy there brand of shoe, I'd write a letter too, but probabilities are Reebok Canada has no idea about the what the billboards say. For those of you in the same boat I'll clarify. There are several billboards around Atlanta that have head shots of athletes accompanied with 'heartwarming' sentiments as "You don't win silver, you lose gold" "If I say I'm just happy to compete, blame my interpreter." And the endearing "Day One, wave the flag. Day Two, crush dreams of others" Is this the new Olympic spirit? Question 3 Barney where is that HE story? I've never heard of it. Oh and some news. There is a book coming out by Peter David, 'writer of stuff' called 'But I Digress' which is a collection of his columns about the comics industry. HE does the introduction the book is due out about October. Also in October The Outer Limits vol 1 a book that has Soldier, I'm not sure if it's the story the screenplay or both, the promo's a little vauge. That's all Jason
Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Lake City, Utah U.S.A. - Monday, August 05, 1996 at 00:08:58 (CDT)

I turned on the radio this past Saturday and was surprised to hear HE on NPR's "Saturday Edition." Did anyone else catch this broadcast? Can you give us a low-down? Thanks.
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
- Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 23:11:52 (CDT)

*SHAZ* Too bad.
Sue Luessenot th <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Riding the white line in the dark, and hoping it's the one on the side, not the one in the middle of the road - Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 22:54:36 (CDT)

**SHAZ** Just went through a 'difficult' time with Baby Boy's roomie from last year. He's from Hong Kong, but was born in the USA when his parents were students here 19 yrs. ago. Everyone assumed he had dual citizenship.. With the imminent return of Hong Kong to Mainland China (and things not looking very good there for those of 'democratic' leanings), his parents asked us to help him find a 'residence', and get him situated as an American citizen.. Well, it seems a) being married to an American citizen(my son-in-law is a Czech Resident Alien); b) born here of Foreign Nationals (and having EVER left - like the rommie); c) born of an American Citizen, but having participated in a long list of proscribed activities in another country (waved in my face to make me feel better about the two above) are all considered 'voluntary revocation of US citizenship'.. Both son-in-law and roomie are currently in 'citizenship classes' to be naturalized citizens as a result. Since your children are not yet born, I'd really advise keeping up to date on those citizenship regulations, since they change over time - and the hourly wage Feds who looked at me like I was part of a 'toilet 'backwash', and talked to me like I had a Bronze Medal from the Special Olympics hung around my neck, behind the desks are 'nice' compared to the nameless, faceless ones with the red 'Denied' stamps 'somewhere higher up'. And *I* was born in Wahshington, DC!! Always been an American.. Grrrrr....... **BARNEY** I'd be happy to send you a 'flame' e-mail re:fanboy/girl -- as soon as I figure out which part isn't true.. And that is looking to be a Herculean Task, since everyone seems to "know one", but nobody seems to "be one".. I borrowed Diogenes' lamp and relabelled it, so I'm hoping to shed some light on this subject soon.. As soon as the politicians stop lighting their cigars and farts with it....0];-}.....**KEEGAN** I have to admit, after going through New Home with the 'new' married lady (oldest daughter) - hooking up appliances, finding the 'soft spots' (and the leaks that caused them) the hard way, and 'fixing' up stuff that was 'good as new', I have a ton of sympathy for your 'moving experience'.. And a secret feeling of relief that we aren't the only ones got 'snookered' a little. Guess "Move-In" condition doesn't mean what we thought...... Had a busy weekend. Put several hundred miles on the bikes seeing friends, and supporting the Riders of Recovery (a fun thing - Pig Roast and Bike Rodeo fund raiser). I didn't win a thing (but Hubby won a door prize). And it doesn't really matter. We were there for folks, and they were glad to have us. All life should be so simple and clear-cut.. TRY HIGH - FLY STRAIGHT - DRIVE SAFE
keegan
- Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 22:53:55 (CDT)

'S okay, Shaz. I've been having to wait for long periods of time with this board, too. It happens, I guess. BTW, thanks for clarifying about Americans living abroad. Many great musicians have "expatriated" themselves in order to better live and create. I've considered it, but am too poor to buy a plane ticket (not to mention that I'm a "bloom where you're planted" kind of chick). It's nice to have the option, though. At least nobody's building a wall to keep me here (unless it's myself, but that's another story). Curious to know, in light of recent ruminations here, whether anyone saw "The Simpsons" on the old box tonight. Sure, it was a repeat, but I just had to laugh! A cosmic joke, of sorts. Any thoughts? Here's a question about an HE story (WHAT!!?? A TOPICAL POST!!??) The story "Would You Do It For a Penny?"- do *you* think it's misogynist? Harlan's intro to the story (I read it in the _Shatterday_ section of _Dreams With Sharp Teeth_) indicates that HE might think so, though it was also abundantly apparent that the story was a joke, a lark, something to do for fun with his friend, Huck (Haskell Barkin). He blames all the schoolboy, macho, ego-posing humor in the story on his friend, but I don't think it was too big a deal. I thought the story was goofy and fun and I actually think that adolescent mindset was part of its charm. I don't always need sensitive guys or guys with a whole hell of a lot of integrity. I don't even always need smart, strong women. I've learned alot from writers depicting stupid, or even despicable people. I've learned alot from fictional people, including how NOT to be. I think it's great that HE has an evolved attitude about women (i.e. we're people, human beings; folk) but I personally see nothing in the story's "attitude toward women" that merits his embarrasment. Anybody else read it and have any feelings about it? It ain't (IMO) his best story, but it wasn't all that bad, either. Fun. That's the word.
Shaz
Enter one Southern white woman, burning a Confederate flag along with a swastika banner - Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 18:33:26 (CDT)

To help further the cause of decreasing ignorance, it is my duty to inform you, Kris(ten), that defecting (and YES by even the definition you quoted, never-mind the overtones of the word) is NOT NECESSARY in order to emigrate from the United States to many countries. I emigrated to a country in the European Community, NOT a member of a Communist block! I retain my U.S. citizenship, and all the rights that entails (including voting in the next Presidential election :P). I have a U.S. passport, as well as a (just renewed last month!) Texas drivers license. You see, many Americans reside abroad as American citizens. In my case, I have Dutch RESIDENCY (which gives me all the rights of Dutch CITIZENSHIP except voting or running for political office)...and when we (me and the Cheeze) DO have children, they will have dual citizenship, unless of course the laws change before their birth. My point is that citizenship in the U.S. is not necessarily exclusive to residing in another country, nor to retaining citizenship--in the case of children of parents with different citizenships--in another country.
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
"never sleeps", disarray - Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 00:18:23 (CDT)

What Keegan said. I can't figure how I made fun of fanboyz/girlz and didn't get one caustic bit of e-mail. Guess I'm preaching to the converted. Anybody want to hear my comments on "Tramalchio in West Egg" [the new Ellison piece]? Quick movie review: avoid "A Time To Kill" like a shared needle. Stunningly bad. Doc: "...piss in your ear if your brain was on fire" Great line. Used it twice already today. And Oscar Wilde said wit was dead. If he's so smart how cumz he aint suckin air? Toodles, Barney (HERC #1)
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
The Bad, Bad, Bad Lands, Texas - Sunday, August 04, 1996 at 00:10:17 (CDT)

Hey all -- just spent the evening crying over a live performance of West Side Story and hating the people for laughing in all the wrong places -- when Tony gets shot? Gimme a BREAK. And all I have to say this evening, before I cry into bed is... JASON: I don't believe you started this, hon. Everyone has every right to start whatever they want, anyway, as long as no personal attacks are made. Attack my country, etc. And, FOR THE RECORD, to "defect" as defined by Webster -- to forsake a party, cause, etc., especially (but not specifically) so as to join the opposition. Now, when you immigrate to another country, I believe you have to renounce your citizenship in the first one. "Renounce" -- "Forsake" -- that's semantics -- In my book, they're the same, and FOR THE RECORD, I did not IMPLY anything.
keegan
- Saturday, August 03, 1996 at 17:36:24 (CDT)

Just gotta tag in and say that I love the spirited writing lately. It reminds me of Town Meeting time in Maine, which, for better or worse, is one of the rawest forms of democracy left. Everybody who cares to shows up and has the opportunity to say their piece as long as they follow an agenda and Robert's Rules of Order. Good arguments between two opposing viewpoints can be the most amusing entertainment a town sees all year. BTW,I honestly don't think anyone here has been overly "flamey" (I've seen worse, believe me). Firey, perhaps, but that's okay. Pass the jalepenos, amigos y amigas!
Doc
Denison, TX Earth - Saturday, August 03, 1996 at 14:28:16 (CDT)

Criminey, I haven't seen so much finger-pointing since the '92 Presidential campaign! *Shaz und Mr. Cheeze* I'm glad you're here, and admire you for not bursting into flame. We live in a big world with a lot of people with a lot of problems. Bearing in mind what Lenny Bruce said about 'should,' bright and attractive people like everyone here at Webderland should pull together to incite growth; unfortunately, the old rule seems to hold true -- we turn into the things we most hate and/or fear. F'rinstance, back in the late 1940's, our country was appalled at what was going on in Russia: all that telling people how to live, what to think, persecuting the non-party-supportive population, etc. So, what did we do? We set up the House Un-American Activities Committee, to make sure people were living right, thinking right, and supporting our government. Ask George Takei, sometime, about the American interrment camps for the Japanese during WWII. To quote O. Henry, "I am a Southerner by birth, not by profession." There are many warm, wonderful people in the South, including Texas. But, as with most any place (I presume, not being too widely-travelled), there's a certain percentage of people for whom I wouldn't piss in their ear if their brain was on fire. Last Monday morning, I went out to breakfast, and overheard the following snatch of conversation at a neighboring table: "You mean, she was half-Indian and half-human being?" I happen to be a quarter Cherokee. That very evening, at work, again at a near-by table in the cafeteria, I listened and watched as a white fellow-employee asked an African-American fellow-employee about "you people," back in the "'hood." It's a credit to the man's patience, and a sad comment on how much he wanted to keep his job, that this galoot wasn't presently battered to thin gruel. Still, the other guy and the woman in the restaurant aren't evil, or bad, or any of those things: merely products of the "food" they ate as a child. The shame is that neither we nor they seem to be able to change their "diet." They are either unaware or unwilling, and most of us, quite bluntly are too cowardly to ask for a different menu. I'm glad Shaz and her Cheeze like Holland and find many things to recommend it, and are aware of the short-comings. America's nice, too; we are abundantly aware of the short-comings. And, personally, I was shocked and appalled to see the words "People like you,..." come out of anyone here. The Olympics provide many people, young or not so young, dreams to which to aspire; athletic scholarships are the only way some kids are gonna get to college. As for welfare, I don't think FDR intended his programs to go unchanged through the millenia; I'm glad they're available -- I might need some of 'em soon, worst case scenario -- and it's a shame people abuse them. But is there any reason to let "a few people mess it up for everyone?" As with the rest of life, there are things we must fight to make better, and that doesn't mean dumping them in toto (he's such a small dog, after all). *P.Nesja* nice to here from you, that's a great story, and I don't remember where the quote is from; HE used it in one of his story introductions, and cites the source. Love ya, Kids! Doc
Shaz
An American in Holland - Saturday, August 03, 1996 at 07:07:34 (CDT)

This is to all who have and will "flame" me: in the interest of INTELLIGENT discourse, it would be appreciated if you would restrict your reactions directed at me to addressing what I ACTUALLY TYPED, instead of what you THINK I said, what you HEARD I said, or what you READ INTO what I said. Thanks, Shaz
Mr. Cheese
the Netherlands - Saturday, August 03, 1996 at 07:03:24 (CDT)

Hello all, I am writing here as a reaction to what Shaz, my wife, showed me has been going on here. I am Dutch, and I am NOT proud of it (I don't think I can be proud of something you can't do much about), all I could say about my heritage is that I am LUCKY to be part of a country that I like rather WELL. I am married to Shaz, who immigrated (NOT 'DEFECTED', Kris(ten), as you make it seem ;) here from the US. First of all, *WolfMistress*, you basically claimed that welfare systems don't work. Well, I think first of all that this country (Holland) is proof that it can be put to work, considering the fact that we were economically very inferior to the US several decades ago, have had a welfare system all along and are now in the same economical league as the US is. Having a 'abundant' welfare system definitely hasn't *hurt* this country.. Further, I think your direct quote about the abuse of the welfare system is a very dangerous one to use. Basically you were saying that if some people abuse the system, it should be abolished and all the people who REALLY need it should SUFFER? I know it's easy to get angry about people abusing the system, I get angry about things like that myself as well. I have a computer engineering job and worked very hard to get there from a working class family. Considering we have a progressive tax system (the percentage of tax goes up as your salary does) and my carreer prospective, I would have every reason to complain about things like this, however I have not fallen into the trap of voting for a party that wants to abolish welfare. The problem as you indicated is having to spend too much money on the welfare system. You also recognized the fact that there is a percentage of people that abuses the welfare system, and I assume you recognize the fact that there are people who really DO need welfare money. The simple and easy-to-fall-for solution is to just cut down on the benefits available to individuals on welfare. This cuts down on everyone in the welfare system. I think that more effort should be put into getting a well-regulated, well-policed system of social benefits. Which is exactly what the Dutch government is trying to do. In the Dutch system, people who are on welfare must be looking for a job (if physically and mentally able to work) and when a suitable job is offered to them, they have to accept it or they will be denied future welfare money. Also, when they are offered schooling after which they would qualify for certain available jobs, they will be forced to do so or again they will be denied the right of social benefits. This system is probably not water-proof, however, it will cut down on some of the abuse and therefore on the total amount of tax money spent. My point is NOT to show how 'great' the Dutch system is (there's probably lots of room for improvement), my point is that all over the world (including Holland!), people tend to make selfish and quick-fix solutions to complicated problems without being aware or WANTING to be aware of the consequences for less-fortunate people. Though sometimes I am probably also guilty of this practice, I am trying very hard to keep my eyes open and recognize and do something about it when I can. As for looking at the good in things, I totally agree with that; however, our eyes should remain open to correcting the things we do wrong. Regards, Mr. Cheese
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
a land of one eyed men - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 23:16:29 (CDT)

I can't talk about the Olympics. I'm going out to dinner Saturday and expect to hear all of this said over grilled turkey and corn and must conserve my wit (?) for the ordeal of having these same opinions regurgitated by friends who will be to drunk to type. SUE: regarding fanboys and fangirls. It's easy. Fanboys no the titles but not the writers of there favorite Star Trek episodes. They ponder the physics of Larry Niven/Greg Bear/Gregory Benford novels. They argue with others over which comic book story line continuities actually happened. They saw a pretty girl go to a room party at a con but go to a Blake's 7 all night film festival instead. They know the Shatner SNL sketch refers to their friends but not them. Fangirls... think capes, cheap overdesigned pewter jewelry, reads Sandman, ponder the rules of magic in their friends shared world fantasy novellas, will actually sit for a speech given in public by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Traits in common - they own and wear buttons with clever things said on shows no longer in syndication. Bad hair ,teeth, skin. You know. By the way, "Xenogenesis"'s only flaw is it's to subtle. Excuse me, I have to go beat my dog and shout at the houseplants. By the way, I to would like to say I'm finding yellow on black a little hard on the eyes now that we've turned into such an opinionated lot. I'm also of the opinion that blacking out web sites to get people without websites to stop infringing our speech is about as effective as sending Agnew postcards asking him nicely to take back all those mean things he said about the press. And the fly needs a name. I'm gonna call him Goldblum until somebody has a better one. Mirror Mirror Barney.
keegan
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 20:55:10 (CDT)

JASON- I *love* having my nose tweaked by a Canadian! (squeal!) That's one of the reasons I like Gene Lees writing on the topic of jazz so much. He loves to affectionately tweak the American nose, too (though he also expresses great admiration for our country). The first essay in his book (the one I just finished and please forgive my shameless promoting. It's a gem.) discusses the difference between Canadian and American personalities and social behavior. He talks about how his view of America was learned mostly from Hollywood and how un-Canadianlike Hollywood's version of Canada appeared. He also speaks of how he was attracted to those who differed from himself and educated himself about others by meeting them-for example in Montreal in the days when there was a vibrant and exclusively French-speaking nightclub and cabaret scene. I dunno. Seems like you all have been writing about the issue and I was reading about it. Ooooooh! Spooky! Anyway, I am with those who say it comes down to people. I am a loud American. Not in a "rah, rah, go team USA" kind of way. *I'm* just loud. Good to live in a country where that's okay, I guess (though believe me, I *have* been asked to tone it down on several occasions). I don't think our government or our population as a whole has its act together in any sense of the word, but I think folks are working on it. I am. My friends are. It seems pointless sometimes, but you go on and do the best you can. I think we can be proud of many of our individual people, but most of those are anonymous grunts who don't necessarily publicize their contributions. There are plenty of layabouts and cads, too. That's the same the world over. There's all kinds here (though we're not necessarily all comfortable with that. I, for one, think it's what makes the place interesting). The Americans the world gets to know are folks like O.J. and the Menendez brothers. They also know Madonna and Jim Carrey (respect the former; loathe the latter). I dunno. What is that quote? I think HE may have used it in something but I've read a lot of diverse stuff lately so I could be waaay wrong. Goes something like this: "Nationalism is an extreme passion for the food one ate as a child". Please, someone, fill me in on the way that quote really goes. A source would be nice, too. I think it was a Chinese person but I may be mistaken. In any case, I'll look, too. It made sense. Anyway, thanks, all, for the energetic conversation. It's good to be back. ***RICK**** is HE planning to come East anytime in the next ten years? Just curious...........
P. Nesja <pnesja@yamamoto-moss.com>
MPLS, MN USA - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 20:45:17 (CDT)

Howdy! I thought this would be a good time to de-lurk and put my 2 cents in. This last few kilo-bytes of messages did start with a general grossing on the current olympics. Though I do agree that NBC's coverage has been generally smarmy, I can't help but feel a small tug on the old heart strings when someone goes beyond expectations and puts in a good performance. Especially when it's someone from the home country. But as with everything, there are some parts I could just have soon not seen (and in most cases didn't.) I didn't watch any of those over paid shoe salesman they call the Dream Team and I had a hard time watching the gymnists, knowing that this was the high point of their lives and that they'll be lucky if they can get to be a spokesperson for info-mercials 5 years from now. Which leads me back to HE. HE wrote a story, I believe the title was And The Cheese Stands Alone, about knowing that a certain event was the high point of your life. Did this story have an effect on anyone else? I would interested to hear from anyone on this. Take care, but leave some for others.
Jason
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 18:55:35 (CDT)

I can't help but feeling that I'm somewhat to blame for this whole mess. And at the same time I'm trying to figure out how I did it. I started with an attack on what I feel to be extremely poor journalism by NBC on it's coverage of the Olympics. I then went on to voice a conception of the U.S. that is very common among Canadians and a few Europeans, with the intent of tweaking the nose of all the Americans a little. I wasn't shooting at your house to adapt Kris(ten)'s analogy, I would describe it more along the lines of saying you should keep the noise down. (It does feel sometimes that the American household does run out into the street yelling they are the greatest.) I've been to the States several times in various locations and I've always enjoyed my visits. Let's face it a lot of our cultures are interchangable, but a lot isn't. The common response up here when trying to describe the Canadian identity is 'We're not American.' (sometimes if we're feeling particularly smug, we'll add 'we're better') this isn't a statement filled with any sort of malice, it's more of a little brother trying to get out his older siblings shadow. So I'm hoping my words weren't taken as any sort of an attack on the U.S. Jason (Boy is this a Canadian post or what?)
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
I'm about to be really annoying, and I want ya'll to bear with me, This is an article I love, on the subject of pride in a place. Delta's Ready When You Are, Toledo-Guy -- by Lewis Grizzard - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 16:51:56 (CDT)

"...The issue on my mind is white Southerners like myself. They don't like us. They don't trust us. They want to tell us why we're wrong. They want to tell us how we should change. They is practically every s.o.b. who ain't one of us...A friend, also a native Southerner who shares my anger about the constant belittling of our kind and our place in this world, put it this way, 'Nobody is going into an Atlanta bar tonight celebrating because they've just been transferred to New Jersey.' Damn straight. I was having lunch at an Atlanta golf club recently. I was talking with friends. A man sitting at another table heard me speaking and asked, 'Where are you all from?' He was mocking me. He was mocking my Southern accent. He was sitting in ATLANTA, GEORGIA, and was making fun of the way I speak. He was from Toledo. He had been transferred to Atlanta. If I hadn't been 46 years old, skinny, and a basic coward with a bad heart, I'd have punched him. I did, however, give him a severe verbal dressing down. I was in my doctor's office in Atlanta. One of the women who works there, a transplanted Northerner, asked how I pronounced the word 'siren.' I said I pronounced it 'sireen.' I was half kidding, but that is the way I heard the word pronounced when I was a child. The women laughed and said, 'You Southerners really crack me up. You have a language all your own.' Yeah, we do. If you don't like it, go back home, and stick your head in a snow bank. They want to tell us how to speak, how to live, what to eat, what to think and they also want to tell us how they used to do it back in Buffalo. Buffalo? What was the score? A hundred and ten to Zip...[some stuff irrelevent to this discussion cut for the sake of space]...I will never turn my back on that heritage. But know this: I'm a white man, and I'm a Southerner. And I sick of being told what is wrong with me from outside critics and I'm tired of being stereotyped as a refugee from God's Little Acre. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I'll probably have to say it a thousand times again: Delta may be hurting financially, but it's still ready to take you back to Toledo whenever you're ready to go." I apologize to the estate of Mr. Grizzard for borrowing his work to prove my point. But if you insert any ol' place in for "atlanta" and "southerners" it'd sound like anyone defending HOME. If you don't like it, work to make it better or get the hell out. But don't holler at me from across the ocean that this place sucks. Maybe it does. But this is where I CHOSE to call HOME. Attacking America in front of Americans from across the ocean is like shooting at someone's house from across the street. It's cowardly, and it doesn't really mean a damn thing if I've built the walls strong enough.
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
HUMAN BY BIRTH, TEXAN-AMERICAN BY THE GRACE OF A MERCIFUL GOD, - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 16:32:22 (CDT)

HEY ALL: WM kindly called for my commentary on this noise on here, but having been MIA for a few days, I've missed a lot. I did faithfully skim the ol' Lynx back a bit, and I think I've got a pretty good handle on what I want to say. I'm sorry I started this and left ya'll to fight it, so without further ado -- MY OPINION. First of all, this never should've become an America-bashing contest and without naming names, I toss the evil eye in the direction of the-one-who-made-it-that-way. The wasted time, money, and energy are an INTERNATIONAL shame. Imagine if we put this kind of effort into peace summits, people! But whether the Olympics are in Barcelona, Athens, or Atlanta, they are still pretty much the same: some running, and lots of money changes hands. SECOND: I am a Texan first, a Southerner next, and a Russian-America last. That's probably three strikes against me in your book, Shazam, but I don't buy that bulls**t, and I think you need to take a long jump off a very short pier, preferably while you're on fire. Can't you see that the kind of overblown pride that you exhibit in the name of certain other countries-that-shall-remain-nameless is ABSOLUTELY the kind of pride that I have in Texas and America? No, people like you never do. People like you are under the misguided assumption that things are only good if they're BETTER than something else. People like you don't understand cheering for the home team or hanging on for dear life to the roots of your heritage, your culture, and your family. For the record, I learned my patriotism (and my Texanism, if you can call it that) from my father. You might remember my father -- or maybe not, but he was quite famous during the late 60's and early seventies. Daddy's a Vietnam vet, you see. Fought in a stupid war, for a country who didn't know what they were doing, to come home to citizens who spit on him and called him a baby-killer. But my father is not a stupid man. He gave the USAF 20 years of his life, took his children to Korea in the early 1980's, trusting that the US of A could keep them safe in such totalitarian circumstances, and retired, only to have the US government strip him of the medical benefits they promised him -- calling that "cuts" in "defense" spending. But my father is not a stupid man. He knows that this nation is something to be proud of. He knows that the people who directed the "conflict" in Vietnam, and the people who took his benefits were just that -- PEOPLE. And he still stand up for the national anthem, and he still says the pledge of alliegence -- with pride in his voice. Patriotism is not something that can be taught or explained. Nationalism is not something that can be understood. It's simply an expanded version of the way you feel when you're sitting around with your family, with the doors and windows shut and all ya'll inside together without any other intrusions. You wouldn't scream out into the street that yours is the best damn family in the world because it's better than everybody elses. You wouldn't even start to think that way. Because it's only the best because it's good and it's what you know. My family has its problems, but I'm not going to go try out some other family, and I don't have a very high opinion of anyone who would. The same goes for my country, Shaz, and so I invite you to renounce your citizenship if you haven't already, go wherever it is you enjoy being, and stay there. If that country or planet can stand you and your backwards views on what makes it good (well, it's better than America!), more power to them. We don't need your mixed up priorities, confused judgement calls, and misguided nationalism here, even you become pro-America tomorrow. Now then, that was as nice as I could be, and it may have been disconnected because I'm extremely angry. But as for your problems in East Texas, I hear they say the same kinda sh*t about you out there.
WolfMistress <Teaching the Paingod a thing or three....>
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 15:26:50 (CDT)

OK, Folks -- My brain hurts. Explore. Have made some minor, but really neat changes to my Page. Take a look, remembering, of course, that I don't have loads of time to spend on it: http://www.angelfire.com/pages1/Wolfen/index.html The script is *Text-Sensitive** so type exactly as shown. Have a great weekend, all!
Mara Skywalker
La Jolla, California USA - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 14:44:11 (CDT)

Hi everyone, miss you all, who wants to impeach BARBRA HAMBLY, SAY I!
keegan
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 14:30:59 (CDT)

That's Gene Lees, no apostrophe. Habit. Apologies.
keegan
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 14:27:52 (CDT)

SUE-the conversation I referred to was in the newsgroup alt.fan.harlan-ellison (or something like that). It's most easily reached through the link on Webderland's links page. The conversation has mellowed out there in the past few days, so it may not be possible to find the posts to which I was referring. If you can, it's worth the time because I like the way people wrote there and how it worked out. I like the newsgroup. Anyway, I still don't really get this "fan-boy" thing either, but have decided it isn't earth-shatteringly important. If anyone cares to comment on what they think, cool. I would like to share what Jack DeJohnette said to Gene Lees in the book I mentioned below ("Cats of Any Color"):"The American experiment cannot be said to have failed because it hasn't been completed". Earlier in interview, he expanded this idea: "America, with all its bulk and greed and bigotry- there's something about this experiment that still hasn't reached its fruition. The experiment has a potential. The potential is here in America........It's still an experiment in America, but it has the potential to lead in a positive way: to learn from the mistakes and greed, to learn to help the less fortunate..." I hope Jack's right. I am proud to be an American, but I am not proud of some of the things "we" have done and continue to do. At least here, I have many choices and ways in which to improve my life and that of those around me. I choose to participate in the experiment despite my frustrations with the status quo. If I'm not part of the solution...... I hope Mr. Lee's will forgive me for quoting his book. Go buy it. It really is a fascinating read.
Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." (from 'Pogo' by Walt Kelley) - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 12:08:34 (CDT)

**DOC** Well, helllooooo there! That was the place I was coming from, too. We had quite a discussion on stereoptypes a ways back (and if I could've gotten through to the Archives, I would have referenced it here - Toonces, give Rick a swat, willya sweetie??). It always comes down to PEOPLE. Organizations, buldings, geography - none of them uplift or oppress - won't find any of them in the hereafter claiming reward or punishment - the people using them will be. Even within the defined groupings, there is wide diversity and ususally conflict/dissent in opinions, because groups are formed around a focus of common interest (and it may be the Only thing the people in it have in common).. I do tend to get testy when I'm slapped in the face with yet another stereotype, label, prejudice (excuse me while I douse the smoking hair in my nose) - and will Always respond to challenge it, because I AM a people and believe I am responsible for the teeny bit of uplift/teardown I contribute to the whole. There really aren't any 'winners' to that kind of debate. Like the kids used to tell me - "You can't MAKE me.." And they were right - I can't. On the other hand, there are logical consequences for choices - and They 'can't make me' either....... **SHAZ** You screamed your prejudice (and that's all it is until you have personally gotten known every person in the US and the Netherlands, and magically toted up all their 'virtues' and 'sins' in Godlike Judgment of The Truth). I pointed out (tit-for-tat style) the "case" can be made point-by-point in the same way against ANY government, religion, culture, or 'group' (using Your example of Better). It seems to be your desire to flame on this topic (you indicated as much with the opening volley). Well, this is all there is. You misunderstood the point of my post. I have clarified it here. I see no reason to carry on a 'defense' of what can't be defended. **KEEGAN** *E* (that's for the one that got swallowed up on the last post.. give me a clue to where the 'other' discussion is going on.. Found out real quick I do the 'same old' things well on the 'puter - but something 'new' leaves me staring at a screen I didn't want, frustrated. Thought, maybe if I browsed my way through their 'discussion', I could get some idea of what 'fan-boy' is.. Or is supposed to be.. Or isn't.. Sounds nasty. And thanks for the book reference (or was that reference book?).. **ANAKIN** Keep on comin' back. I still get dazed and confused with that 'chat' thingie scrolling by, AS I type, trying to respond to all of it, and wind up just throwing up my hands, and tip-toeing away.. Kind of gave new meaning to the biblical phrase "All is vanity, and a chasing after the wind".... And is it just me, or does the bold typeface burn into the retinas in nice straight yellow lines after a few volumes of posts?? Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Madness Rules!, - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 11:05:26 (CDT)

*SHAZ* - One final point. Over the past say 35 years, I have never heard of the fans of any *American* game played here turning into such an uncontrollable mob that scores of people are trampled to death, injured, etc. However, this is regular behaviour in Europe (England included) and South American countries. So who has the lock on the "Bread and Circuses" mentality here??
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!, - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 10:48:24 (CDT)

YO, KRIS(TEN) -- Where are you, hon? *YOU* started this free-for-all with your comments, then you leave us to field the flak! 8>-} We need some of your scalding commentary here, so we can get everyone to a "full, rolling boil", as my Mom's jelly recipes used to say. *DOC* - I have been taking 2 ginseng capsules morning and evening for 2 weeks. Didn't mention it before because I wanted to be certain of the results. Feel a lot better that I did! It could be the placebo effect, or the ginseng really works. Who cares? And clean up your attitude! The MIND has a lot to do with how you feel, and no on *HERE* is gonna allow you to wallow! Personally, I found Naprosyn to be absolutely useless, even as an anti-inflammatory. They gave it to me for years because I have osteo-arthritis in all joints besides the bone problem. The stuff is useless. I do better taking the Motrin-strength of ibuprophen -- 800mg (4 pills). It's cheaper than Naprosyn and works better. Just some info.

WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
The madness still prevails...., - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 10:33:02 (CDT)

Greetings, All! -- Well, well - interesting responses here! *Shaz* - Your 1st response intrigues me on two fronts: (1) You totally ignore my mention of the inspiration one can get from watching an Olympic athlete and the struggle of said athletes to get where they want to go through hard work and dedication and (2) Your odd opinion that sports should only be engaged in as a *hobby* because of the so-called *crowd-mania* involved?!!?? Excuse me??? Millions of hobbies are also professions and vice versa. Your saying that if someone has a special talent, like running or hitting home runs, or making touchdown passes, or making goals, or shooting baskets, they are supposed to just ignore this talent because it might offend someone's sensibilities??? In that case, I'm sure that there are poeple in the world who are offended by Computer Engineers like myself, concert pianists, playwrights, golfers, airline pilots, policemen, firemen, etc., etc. ad infinitum. And as for crowd-mania, being a native Pittsburgher now living in Wisconsin, I am both a Steelers and Green Bay Packers fan, and a die-hard Pittsburgh Penguins (hockey) fan. I also like soccer, and having played softball and volleyball, can get into those, too. There are times when I feel the need to go to a game; for me and a lot of people I know, it is half enjoyment of watching professionals in action and half personal catharsis for the frustrations and aggravations of life. You can scream and yell and get really mad if someone on your team messes up, but for the most part, it is harmless fun. And when you leave you either feel good because your team won, or disappointed because they lost, but the internal pressures are gone. Would you rather I and others bought an AK-47 and found a nice, snug clock tower somewhere? In all fairness, I think you failed to see my point about the Olympics and it's attendant miseries -- you keep mentioning the politicians, etc. I *agree* about all that. I'm defending the right of everyday people, young people, older people, whoever wants to give it a try, to do so. If the Olympics is the only major venue in which they can do this, then they have a right to participate. You have no idea the kind of discipline, dedication and commitment it takes to go to practice when there are a million and one other less grueling things you can be doing. And still do all the farm chores, do your homework, go to class, and back to practice again. Why?? Because I was raised by parents who taught me one very salient fact: whatever you do, try to be the best. They never said I *had* to be the best -- just *try* to be the best because the effort is a lesson in itself. When I made Division Champion in the heptathlon in high school, I withdrew from the All-State competition in that event because of a pulled hamstring and a small splinter fracture in my wrist from the javelin throw. I wasn't seriously disappointed because I had proven my point to myself and my parent - and anyone else who was interested. I *tried*, and I discovered I could do it! Yeah, like Springsteen's song, those were the "Glory Days", but they helped shape the person I am today. I learned I could to anything at all if I put my mind and will into it, that I had to believe in myself before anyone else could. There were plenty of kids who did other things besides sports; they were in the band or any of the other clubs. They did their thing - what was right for them. I and millions of others, do what's right for us. And as for the "greatest country in the world" -- this is a continuation of the global sitation after WWII - We *were* the greatest country in the world at that time, and it is a hard thing to just get rid of. So our nationalism gets a little overbearing -- *DOC* and I both said the same thing -- we are Human Beings, so *none of us is perfect!! I'm supposed to dis my country because The Government (CIA, Military/Big Business Complex, Gremlins in the White House Basement) screws with other countries and finances Irangate and hit squads in Nicaragua and on and on? I don't think so. I am sincerely sorry you had such a bad experiences in East Texas. Perhaps if you didn't expect people to be molded in your own image of what makes an acceptable person, you wouldn't have had so much trouble. I think I know more about prejudice and bigotry than you'll ever dream of; I personally respect people until they give me personal reasons not to. And I wouldn't be so proud of "abundant welfare", and government-sanctioned handouts. We tried that and look where it got us -- generational welfare recipients that make me see bright red. A quote from a teenage Black girl on a bus back home a few years back, "I can't wait to have a baby so I can get my own check and quit having to live off my mom's!" A DIRECT QUOTE!, verbatim. It made me so mad at the time, I got off the bus before my stop. This is what "abundant welfare" generates - people with no ambition, no thought of trying to get better; why learn a skill or anything when the government is paying you to do mothing?? Funded by taxpayers like me who have worked since age 16, ended up a single parent when my husband split, and never, ever asked for a damned dime from anyone! Don't get me started on *that* score, because to quote our loveable Jason, "I'll come at you with rhetoric so vicious it'll make your ears bleed!" But it is obvious your mind is closed on this subject so my going on is more or less a waste of time. You look at the world and America in particular and all you can see is the sludge and slime, the flaws and faults of your fellow Humanity. Did you ever try to find the good in something, anything? And personally, you're 100% right, we Americans are arrogant as all hell. We have a right to be. We're the new kids on the block on the world scale in one sense, and we've come further in 200 years than a lot of countries have in their thousand-year histories. Give us a thousand year -- we might get over it.
keegan
- Friday, August 02, 1996 at 08:43:19 (CDT)

Doc: Thanks for your words. Well said. I spend most of the school year convincing children to open their minds and embrace things (usually, but not always, music) that are unfamiliar and different. I hope that it somehow helps. Sorry to hear you're illin'. Hope there is some relief for you soon!
Doc
Be veeeeery quiet,..., I'm hunting wabbits! Heheheheheheheheheh! - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 03:00:22 (CDT)

Oooh! Lookee, everyone! I found it! I love technology. Dear Friends -- you are all dear, and I do consider you my friends -- nothing, but NOTHING ('cept maybe religion)(and maybe racism, and,...) gets a conversation cookin' like politics. I, personally, think it would be faboo to just sh*t-can the notion of Politics, and bring it all down to common sense (an increasingly mythical beast) and human decency (also on the "endangered" list. Let me reiterate, emphasizing *human* decency. There ain't but one race, kids, and that's the human race. I love my country; and, sometimes, I hate my country. I love this planet; and sometimes look foreward to the crisp-ash-in-space. What it comes down to is the people. Let me crib a few lines of my own prose: "We fought evil down to the last man of us. Then we found out what evil was." "What's that?" "The last man of us. But we couldn't wipe it out, 'cause it was our last and best hope, too." What I'm getting at here (sometimes even *I'm* not so sure!) is that there's more to be gained for people everywhere, every country, every color, creed, gendre and/or sexual preference, etc., more to be gained by seeing how we are alike, rather than how we are different; by looking for what works that we all can use, instead of pointing out the wrongs -- the considerable wrongs -- we do each other every day, nationally, or face-to-face. There will never be world peace, there CAN never be world peace -- because we only grow through conflict. Only during our hardest times can we force ourselves to look deep into the abyss and draw out the very richest we have to offer. So, why don't we do it more often? Because it's easier to see the differences, particularly so, it seems, when we are besieged. People just can't get along; they shouldn't. BUT, with hope and alot of hard work, perhaps someday a majority (or a minority; SOMEone) can draw goodness for all of us out of that miserable stew of conflict each time it comes to a simmer, and, maybe, prevent it coming to a boil. Well. THAT was certainly a spiel. Confidentially, it was better when I remembered it. But, why waste a perfectly good (?) (!) mini-rant? Remember, I'm ill. Love, Doc
Doc
Steamin', I wish I had the energy to really have a tantrum. - Friday, August 02, 1996 at 02:48:19 (CDT)

I had the most eloquent spiel, here, moments ago. I touched a wrong button. Now, it is locked forever in the past. I will not attempt to duplicate -- I am, simultaneously, too tired and too furious. You would have all wept, it was that moving. Trust me. Anyhoo, thanks *everyone* for your good wishes re: my health. I wish I had something to tell you. My back feels like it's getting worse, the EC Naprosyn isn't helping (I can't even tell I'm taking it), sleep stays 'way from my door (4 or 5 hours, and I'm awake; then I'm asleep, then an hour later I'm awake, lather, rinse, repeat, until I have to get up, still dog tired), my shoulders & knees are getting into the act,...I'll stop. I've always promised myself I wouldn't turn into one of those little old people who sit on the porch in front of the barber shop, saying, "Look -- lemme tell you about my operation,..." And I do NOT intend "little" as a heightist remark. I am six feet tall (or, was, before beginning my transformation into The Human Question-Mark), and am of a husky build (that's "Rubinesque," but for men) and have always hated my body. I got beat up in school because I was biggest in class, hated to fight, and didn't fight back because the teachers (HA!) took that as prima facia evidence that I was the bully who started it. Somebody's always got something to prove, and they just HAVE to prove it on a big guy. Feh. So, let there be no comers with that "heightist" stuff. I'd rather be an adorable 5'7", 160# cuddle-toy, any day. I'm never going to be 160# again, short of having a limb amputated; although that might contribute to the 5'7" portion of the Dream Bod. If you haven't noticed by now, I'm *awfully* tired. The Olympics are a wonderful affair that bores me to tears; I say, Let 'em ALL have gold medals. I'd like to visit Holland sometime. I'd like to visit Canada - I had a friend from Toronto, David Ing, Chinese father, German mother; delightful chap. I'm also fond of "You Can't Do That on Television," which may or may not still be on the air; if not, I guess you _can't_. I can feel myself aging with every passing moment. Remind me to tell you my brilliant idea for publishing TLDV, sometime. CPriest is a self-congratulatory ass, from what I can see from his Deadloss-thingee. Perhaps soon it will be *At* Last Dangerous Visions. Please don't hurt me, HE; I'm am weary, I hallucinate. I love you all. Probably won't be posting much for awhile, got to straighten out the health-thing, and have put off writing for far too long. I'll be watching,...Muchas Smooches. Love, Doc
Shaz
Since you dredged up the PAST... - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 20:05:57 (CDT)

One last note: In 1782, John Adams came to Amsterdam to ask for, and RECEIVE, the first of $30 million in loans to launch a new and uncertain United States government.
Shaz
- Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 19:56:54 (CDT)

Luesse: As for the Dutch giving the world the word apartheid, slave-trade was already being practiced IN AFRICA by the tribes. I do not say this to support racism or apartheid, but just as a historical fact. I am appalled at the apartheid in South Africa as well as Shell Oil's dealings there. It's interesting to note that Shell, like the U.S. government, has its own little brainwashing campaign going on with its employees. My hubby works for Shell on assignment from his company and tells me that Shell constantly issues electronic "factual" memos about Shell's position (presented as the bonafide truth, of course) on various things that might start controversy, such as enviromental issues and I suppose political ones like you mentioned. I have no knowledge of the massacre incident you mentioned, but certainly wouldn't put it past Shell (which although it is Royal Dutch, has not always been wholly owned by Dutch interests). As for the Dutch government's full knowledge and participation in such a massacre plot, I have doubts (but would not dismiss it since I TOO am skeptical about EVERY government) about that--perhaps the small extreme right faction that has some seats in the govt. helped set it off, I don't know. As for the exploitation of colonies, shall we talk about certain "resort" islands run by U.S. interests and the exploitation of South American workers ($0.32 an hour, folks--and mostly women who are too young not to be in school) so that U.S. companies can offer products to a willing American public inexpensively? The U.S. also has a history (though it's mostly kept out of the history books) of supporting military regimes and exploiting foreign peoples for profit. It started at home with the near-genocide of the Native Americans, then the exploitation of blacks, then of children (those great child labor days) and still women, and then it spread to South America and whereever else America could act behind the scenes to its advantage. Most democracies have such histories, and Holland probably has a longer list since it has EXISTED LONGER. I am not proud of such a history, but it is there. Speaking of Dutch colonies, colonies that are independent and do not refuse it TO THIS DAY get financial aid from Holland in an effort to make reparations. As far as everyone having America as the first choice to emmigrate to, that is hardly the case in Europe. Holland is a huge favorite because of its willingness to accept foreigners (esp those seeking political asylum) and the likelyhood that said foreigners won't live in poverty due to education and work training programs available as well as abundant welfare. As for being a patriot, I do not parade the banners of something when I see a huge number of wrongs. I am neither an American nor Dutch nationalist. Holland, like everywhere, has its problems as well. I just find it healthy to point such problems out without taking someone doing the same personally. We need to live in this world with open eyes and minds as clear as possible with the hype and propaganda of those who would maintain a status quo that is not healthy for its citizens.
Shaz
feeling the flow of hot air ALL THE WAY to Holland - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 19:33:51 (CDT)

Wolfmistress: When I said I loathed sports, I was mainly referring to those sports (like football, baseball, hockey, and ANY profit-making ones) which feed on crowd mania. Enjoying doing a sport is fine--my husband has been doing non-steroid bodybuilding as a hobby for years in fact. If doing the sport gives you pleasure fine--the whole thing is that sports are supposed to be HOBBIES. And speaking of "small town America", I lived in Small Town America (which could also be called narrow-minded, racist town America) until I went to college. The small towns I saw in my part of America (stretching across East TExas) didn't show much to be proud of. I don't hate America, but I do hate how the right-wingers have shaped America and the thinking of many Americans with their propaganda. When's the last time you ever heard a politician speak without the words "greatest country in the world" crossing their lips? I wouldn't care to hear such a statement from a Dutch official either. The thing about the people here is that they aren't arrogant enough to spread around that sort of bull. Dutch people are very well traveled in general and the most tolerant people (of cultures, races, ideas, etc.) you'll ever meet. But I can boast of accomplishments made by this country that America can only dream about such as almost totally obliterating homelessness through well-thought out and funded social programs.
Anakin O'Hara
Newington, Connecticut United States of America - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 19:00:19 (CDT)

Hi! Nice to see that everyone is watching the olympics, cept me. I have been working too much at Media Play, I'm in movies and I saw a tape of a Boy and His Dog, I might buy it and I'm going to get the Essential Ellison, in paperback form. Let me see, I have to get noticed here, I know! MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!!!!! Just kidding, attention breaker, I want to make sure to tell you guys that I'm still an Ellison Worshipper, but now Mara Skywalker is taking over my brain again, bye!
Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Retread of an English Resort Town, Massacre of the Native American Name State UNITED states - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 13:09:21 (CDT)

GOT to tag in on the Olympics, and Ugly Americans.. I was an Army brat for a long time. Not too many people have called more different cultures and climes 'home' than I did (and WHY I planted my behind, and stayed put first chance I got). It's always been 'fashionable' to dis America - and America is still THE NUMBER ONE FIRST CHOICE of everyone everywhere to GO TO, and LIVE. Yeah, I hear all the talk, the cynicism, the critiques.. And yeah, we're not perfect - but at least we own our sh!t.. How nice for the Dutch that their former Colonies were 'liberated' when it cost more to oppress than they got in profits, no longer are 'part of' the Dutch, so the Dutch have 'clean hands'.. While the 'Legacy' of Dutch rule is constant warfare to 'fill the power vacuum', and poverty. How nice of the Dutch to point out American racism - and forget THEY gave the world Apparthied, and made their fortune on the American Slave Trade.. How tolerant they are of thier 'unfortunate' social victims at home - and "Not Know" anything about their memo's to military dictators they financially maintain in power and control asking for the removal of the Ogoni people from their ancestral lands to accomodate a Shell (Royal Dutch) oil pipeline, which has become a genocide, and resulted in the execution of Ken Sarowiwa (a Nobel Prize winning poet) for getting 'too verbal' about it (which happened a year ago, and is still a Hot Topic with the UN). The Truth will set you free.. It may not be pretty (rarely is when power and greed come into play), but it doesn't discriminate.. People are pretty much the same basic model everywhere.. A real sceptic challenges ALL claims - and takes the time to investigate and discover facts before forming an opinion or taking a stand.. I don't like the propaganda and hype. I detest Nationalism for creating artificial divisions to justify dehumanizing people to steal their 'stuff'. But *I* don't buy ANY of it. I REFUSE to accept the idea that putting down others proves anything good about anybody, or justifies abuse. And I am not about to 'choose' one flavor of Nationalism and bigotry over another, as if one is 'better' than the other. Everybody puts a 'good face' on their own faults (always an 'understandable mistake', never "I really f@cked up"). Easy to be suckered by that.......And **Olympics** - guess I am the opposite of WolfMistress. I totally suck at sports. Not even good enough to enjoy doing them. Which makes me LOVE to watch those who can, do incredible things. No different than reading a book and experiencing what I can't any other way, or listening to music I couldn't hear any other way. And they're all hyped, too. Welcome to the 90's.. So they're hyped.. So what.. Doesn't take away the exceptional abilities that came before the hype. Doesn't mean physical giftedness is somehow to be valued 'less' than any other kind of giftedness because it's getting wanked for not-so hidden agendas. You don't like? Don't watch. Big deal. Works for most things. **KEGAN** finally ran back throught those Archives, and really don't have much to say about 3 Faces of Fear (it seemed pretty straightforward and well layed out) or Thick Red Moment (ditto). They simply approach the same topic from different directions (those who create, and those who partake). I'm chewing on the 'fan-boy' thing.. I don't have a very good handle on what that term is supposed to mean yet. TRY HIGH - FLY STRAIGHT - DRIVE SAFE
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Madness is its own reward...., - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 12:09:05 (CDT)

Yeah, I'm gonna wear out my welcome. Too bad. One of the reasons for the media/sponsor overkill in the Olympics in Atlanta is because unlike just about every other country which fields a team, America's government *does not* support it! It's left to the hopefuls to find their own funding, which usually means selling their souls to Corporate America just to find decent places to practice! *That* really irks me, that our government doesn't make any effort to support the participants, but they'll damn sure demand the taxes and whatever else they feel they're entitled to from the profits, proceeds, whatever! No, America isn't perfect -- far from it. I don't know any country that is, because we're all Human Beings and *WE* are not perfect. But my grandfather on my Mom's side came here from Europe to escape the strangeness going on in what was the Austria-Hungarian empire (or whatever they called themselves in 1909), and my grandfather on my Dad's side was full-blooded Choctaw Indian. Technically, I am Hungarian/Choctaw/Black with a scattering of Russian from my maternal grandmother's side. When I get right down to it, I think the Native Americans got an even worse deal than Blacks with the totally overdone slavery issue! That's not the point. On my Mom's side, I am only 2nd generation American. And for all it's flaws, this is my country. Yes, I protested the VietNam war. Yes, I marched against a lot of things the government has done/is doing/will do. I am ideologically against hate groups, but I will defend their right to say what they think in a peaceful, unmolested manner. Violence is another thing entirely. But the backbone of this country is *NOT* the government! I happen to know that for a fact because I lived and worked the Washington, DC scene for over 10 years! I know how they think in Washington. It is lightyears away from what Joe Sixpack with wife and 2.3 kids thinks, that's for damned sure! My America may be totally different from anyone else's, but that's what individuality is about. I've have visited Canada numerous times (Montreal once, Toronto 5 times so far! Love the city!)and will be the first to say Canadians could teach us a few things! But that doesn't make me love my country any less. Each of us as individuals make up America -- are we *ALL* so bad???
keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
Ithaca, NY USA (and proud of it) - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 10:46:20 (CDT)

Well, hello all and where to begin? For those of you who care, the move to my new-to-me house was successful. Now we're all adjusting which is, in some ways, worse than the schlepping itself. Let's just say that my house is a hundred years old and I'm not feeling too young, myself. My children, too young to have any sense of history (or civil behavior for that matter) have already taken it upon themselves to redecorate the wood and sundry areas of wallpaper and floor with modern designs in Crayola marker. They are in daycare today. It's a matter of survival-mine, theirs and my beautiful home's. Anyway, I've been wired for a couple days now and have been reading the board and the newgroup in an effort to become current on the conversations. I don't have a whole lot to say about some things, but one thing I do want to bring up as a topic of conversation here is something that I noticed in the newsgroup. Now before I begin (WHAT? She hasn't begun yet??) a major caveat: Nothing I say in this post is meant to malign the newsgroup or any of the people who post there. I think the conversation there is valid, if not always interesting, kind or well-written. That is the nature of the Internet. Here's the thing I want to talk about: Fan-boy mentality. First of all, I know we discussed fandom in our conversation regarding "Xenogenesis" a few hundred screens ago. We talked largely about unacceptable behavior from psychotic fans toward the "object" of their affection. However, the conversation in the newsgroup has revealed much about the attitudes of fans and affianados toward each other. I do not completely understand the term "fan-boy". The image which springs to mind (because that is what stereotypes are designed to do) is that of a geeky, reasonably intelligent but awkward male who displays an adolescent enthusiasm for a genre (usually skiffy) like StarWars, Trek, comix...whatever to the exclusion of a well-rounded, active-dare I say "real"- life. The fan-boy's thinking, attitude, and behavior are formed by his devotion. He might seek parallels to his behavior in the work to which he is devoted (e.g. "What would Luke Sywalker do in a situation like this?"). Now this is, of course, gross exaggeration. I doubt most "fans" of anything fit this extreme description of devotion. In the newsgroup, though, the term "fan-boy" has been applied to describe people who are interested in Harlan's opinions about current issues and movies like _12 Monkeys_. It was implied that these people were too lazy to form their own opinions about things without first finding out what HE thinks and then parroting, "Oh, me too, me too!". I, personally, am more in line with those in the newsgroup who said that people gravitate toward interest in Ellison's opinions mostly because his writing "agrees" with what they already think--as an affirmation of sorts. I am definitely one of those people. I tend to think HE is right about most things he says, and even if I don't think he's "right", he usually has a valid point or two to make. I'm interested in his opinions because he expresses himself so well and because it *encourages* me to think. It's entertaining if nothing else. I find it's usually much more than entertainment. So does that make me a fan-boy? Hardly. First of all, I'm a chick, got it? And yeah, I'm a fan but I'm not reading HE exclusively. I've got much more to do than sit around reading and posting to this board. I just happen to be adept at managing my time to make space for this sort of thing which is, to me, relaxing and fun. I imagine it's much the same for others out there. If there was a really cool jazz bboard, I might make time for that, too. Whaddoya think? I know Rick's opinion of those who accuse him of being a fan-boy and running a fan-boy site is, "Screw 'em," which I heartily endorse myself. I don't think that just because someone is interested in the opinion of man whose works they admire makes them necessarily incapable of original thought. Go on over to the newsgroup and check it out. Jump into the fray if you can figure out a way to do it. Again, I'm not trying to dis the newsgroup in anyway. I just found the topic interesting and wanted to bring it up here in Webderland. I like the way you folks write. I sincerely hope this isn't a bad idea. BTW, the book I just finished reading, _Cats of Any Color: Jazz Black and White_by Gene Lees. a Canadian jazz critic and a knowlegable writer. It's excellent and confronts the many heads of the hydra Xenophobia including anti-white bias in jazz and anti-Americanism in the European embrace of jazz music. Check it out if it sounds interesting. It's published by Oxford University Press.
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson>
The Madness That Prevails...., - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 10:19:05 (CDT)

*SHAZ* -- One question - what did the entire country of America do to you to make you hate it so much -- all 260 million of us? And your personal loathing of sports is your business but you needn't make it sound like any of use who happen to enjoy sports and trying to keep our bodies reasonably fit are some kind of Neanderthals. Some of us just might enjoy remaining *active*, and engaging in a sport is the best way to do that. I just have a problem with anyone who lumps things together and slaps a label on it. The business with Texans is mostly tongue-in-cheek, and those who take it seriously live there so they souldn't bother you. If you find all of us so vile and self-serving, no personal insult intended, but I'm glad you left! Flame on, folks!
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Into the Olympic Flame with a vengeance...., - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 10:02:39 (CDT)

Good Morning, Y'all -- Being outnumbered never stopped me, you know. I see it's "Let's Slam the Olympics *and* America" time, Kiddies. Fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I will proceed to state mine. I totally agree that the Olympics is overhyped, overbudget, and just plain overdone. I also agree with *Kris(ten)* that Olympic medalists should not be called 'heroes' in the accepted sense of the word. *However*, my interest in the Olympics has to do with **People**. The participants in all the events that aren't the most photogenic like figures-skating, track & field, and gymnastics. A lot of people work their butts off for a lot of years to just to *try* to make an Olympic team. There are the shooting, and the rowing teams and table tennis teams and canoeing teams and the handball teams. You very rarely if ever hear of these teams or how many years the members practiced and sacrificed just to get there. I have known Olympic hopefuls over the years who worked regular jobs and trained in their off/spare time. And back in 1960, a 20-year-old who had been a spindly little girl who couldn't even walk much until age 11, a sharecropper's kid from backwoods Tennessee, inspired the 10-year-old me at the time as few things have since. It was Wilma Rudolph, and what she did became an inspiration to hundreds if not thousands of young women of color as I was. She couldn't walk, but she wanted to fly -- and she made it so. These are the ones the Olympics is for. Growing up on the farm, I was strong, but after seeing Wilma (a Black woman at that!) win against all the odds, I got into sports, track, any game there was. I lettered in Track & Field in high school and won our Division Championship in the-then version of the heptathlon. I was also a member of the winning volleyball team. As an adult, I continued to play softball, volleyball, run, and lift weights until the problem with my bones became evident and I had to have multiple surgeries. After my 2nd back surgery, my doctor made me give up lifting weights, so I swim when I can. I still more chunky than I'd like to be, but I manage. The point is that between my parents supporting anything I wanted to do, and Wilma Rudolph, I did a lot more than I may have done otherwise. No, they're not heroes, but they *try*, and that's what makes me respect the Olympic participants. They put incredible effort into preparing for something that may take only a half-minute, and many only do it once. The repeat Olympians are not as many as they make people think. And yes, the whole Olympic thing is way overdone. Of course it is. America is known for going to extremes. But the organizers, and media people, and money-grubbers of one kind or another are not *all* of America. I'll tell you what I told someone else: Many years ago, I drove from Pittsburgh to the Pacific Ocean (really - pulled over on Pacific Coast Highway just north of San Simeon and walked to the beach to put my feet in the Pacific.) During that drive, I went off the beaten track, getting a look at Small Town America. The trip gave me a whole new outlook on the quiet magnificence of this country and its citizens. *That* was practically the single-most influence on my own particular brand of patriotism. I am proud to be American not because of our leaders(!), not because of all that political horse-hockey, not because of the Talking Heads suffering from Diarrhea of the Jaws, but because of the many diverse races, nationalities, and lifestyles that go into the Foundation of America. It is bedrock of the most extraordinary kind, and I am damned proud to be a part of it. So please don't categorize my entire country by what the Media Mongrels do. That's not US, OK?
Shaz
Holland - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 08:42:04 (CDT)

Oh, and ANOTHER thing I find annoying: often being asked if I've ever been tested for or used drugs when I tell some American (who usually turns out to have very conservative views) that I live in Holland and find that country a bit more advanced in certain areas than the U.S. Apparently the ONLY message people in the U.S. get from the media there about The Netherlands is that it's a vile country full of dope-drenched liberal crazies who send their children out to be prostitutes as soon as they hit puberty. I've been a bit quiet here for a while, so don't mind if I go off a bit into a mini-rant.
Shaz
Holland - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 08:35:49 (CDT)

Jason: Actually, you're not the only one who finds the U.S.'s neverending "we're the greatest in the world" brainwashing campaign annoying, and I'M AN AMERICAN! Even worse, I got a full dose of "everything's better and bigger in Texas" for 25 years. It took some international traveling (and not the 2 days in each major European city style travelling that most Americans seem to think gives them an adequate knowledge of foreign cultures and political systems) and discussions with online friends all over the globe to open my eyes. Although I've been a skeptical person all my life, it was a rude awakening. I also don't buy that bullshit about the Olympics "bringing countries together". If anything it makes countries more nationalistic, waiting with baited breath to parade their "superiority" (via gold medals) around for all the world to see. I've always loathed sporting events, though I did attend every football game for 4 years in high school as part of my band duties, as a forum for mindless crowd emotion-letting and aggression. Living now in a country with very little violence (relative to the US), it's interesting to note that the only times the riot police need to be called out in Holland is when there's a soccer game involving the Dutch team. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed a bit for this, but I don't really care.
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, disenchanted - Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 00:23:08 (CDT)

Just because I posted the address doesn't mean I'm inclined to bite you. Twice shy. Barney.
Jason
- Thursday, August 01, 1996 at 00:05:13 (CDT)

You owe me five bucks Kris(ten) *grin* I've watched one event, by that I mean turned on the t.v. to watch one specific event, I've seen others while channel surfing and waiting for commercials to end on programs I was watching, some thing are fun to watch, but I don't by into the unity through athletic competition propaganda, the money being spent on the Olympics would be much better off going to Greenpeace or Unicef or the Peace Corps, but that wouldn't bring in the ratings or as much money to the generous sponsors. BTW The event was was the hundred meter sprint. Which Donovan Bailey won, I was happy for him, and I hope this will help erase the Ben Johnson Debacle. After that I went on a pizza run and played cards with my friends for the rest of the evening. Post script to that, I watched the event on CBC, watching NBC spout that chauvanistic, quasi-xenophobic crap for more than two minutes makes me want to projectile vomit. (someone's going to to flame for this) Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to shove their greatness, real or delusional down everybody's throat? Are their (note I'm using their and not your, I'm talking about the country in general) egos so fragile that they have to keep telling themselves they are the greatest thing in the universe? Yesterday while channel surfing I saw a promotion for Good morning America announcing they had Michael Johnson 'the world's fastest man' on the next day, which is crap because the title world's fastest man goes to the winner/record holder of the 100 metre sprint, who of course is not Michael Johnson. This really has nothing to do with the Olympics specificaly it's just a general attitude most Canadians find extremely annoying. (There I've said it I feel better) I promised I would post an address so you could write Peter David to so you put the lean on him to give Rick some info on FOE this afternoon. I'm late bite me. I ran into a classmate and spent about 45 minutes rinding the bus past my stop to continue catching up with her. Yes I said her, and yes she's attractive, very attractive so what? She's also seeing someone. It's not like you were all waiting for this address with baited breath anyway. And there's no real point now 'cause Barney's put the actual address up here, still check out his comics anyway there good stuff, and HE gets mentioned once in a while, 'Wanting to book HE for a themed talk show called 'Short and Scrappy night' is a scene that still makes me chuckle. On other great comic newsfronts Dark horse is reprinting the Dream corridor special and issues # 1-5 in a trade paperback. It's supposed to come out on Oct 16th, I know I was wrong about the quarterly, but that was the release date they listed it's not my fault it was delayed. The price is $18.95 The promo also mentioned that Chatting with Annubis won the Deathrealm Award (anybody know what that is?) also Dynamic Forces (a company that specialises in singed work, is selling signed copies of 'City.." for 59.95, while I'm not recommending that you buy it, it does seem to suggest that City.. will be available in October, maybe. What I can tell you is that Kris(ten)'s favourite company White Wolf has Solicited Edgeworks vol 2 for a November release. $21.99 US, and an incredible cover, go check the WW website to see it. That's all I can think of at this time of night/morning. Later. Jason
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. 18102 USA - Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 22:06:35 (CDT)

I Have No Emoticons And I Must Type Hi folks. I'm afraid I'm going to post a big chunk or two as I have 3 weeks of catching up to do. Here goes. 1.)Regarding Friends of Ellison (F.O.E.) I'm not entirely sure this is still a going concern as Enemies/Victims of Ellison seems to have folded its raggedy tent but the address is... Peter David (writer of stuff) [F.O.E.] P.O. Box 239 Bayport, NY. 11705 What they are looking for is a testimonial regarding something kind Harlan may have done for that person. Kittens out of trees, Jimmy Stewart "It's a Wonderful Life" type stuff. I got a cool gold button about 3 inches across with the F.O.E. logo. It's right next to my Harlan Globetrotter button and my signed Mart Hodell Green Lantern ring. Me? Glote? This info. was also in one of the more recent Rabbit Holes which I don't have at hand right now so somebody may want to check the box # in case it's changed in the last 12 months. HERC may also field these but I'd write here first. 2.)Quite a ways back somebody mentioned a Twilight Zone marathon (Jason?)and in particular the episode "Button,button". Other then serving as story consultant (as he did with all the CBS TZ's) I was not aware that this was Ellison related. My Swigart bibliographies only take me up to '84 but the index goes from Sal Buscema (Hulk comic) to "But Who Wilts the Lettuce". Help. 3.)My entry into the casting game for Ellison projects. I will not play the anti-casting game as Hollywood does not need my help in this regard. "Laugh Track" as a revival of Playhouse 90. Anita Morris as Aunt Babe, Danny DeVito as Bill Tidy, Christopher Lloyd as Wally Modisett [the Phantom Sweetener] and Kevin Spacey as Angelo. Pidow! 4.)What is the diminutive of Scarlett? 5.)Doc: The Tick!!! I used to have my computer say "Yup, you've got a planet in your ear." every time I got below 10meg on my hard drive. Favorite line... "No offense. Tick: None comprehended." Not since George of the Jungle have I had so much fun on a Saturday morning. Take care. 6.)Wolfmistress/Doc: You had it easy. We had to sleep in a cardboard box in the middle of the road and get up 4 hours before we went to bed and lick the road clean before walking 50 mile uphill (both ways) to work but we lost that cushy place and had to live at the bottom of a lake.... To the Python purists out there I'm sorry I mangled that and to anybody who wants to e-mail me about this I point my buttocks in your general direction! 7.)Kris(ten)/Jason: wow. I was going to say something ala Rodney King but I see now that you two have something like Monk and Ham had going in the old Doc Savage novels. Don't need my help. Have a nice day. IMHO Gramma is a glorious failure. I think it is the weakest of the Ellison related TZ's. This still makes it better then 80% of the rest of the TZ's but not on my top 5 list. I think the problem is with the internal monolog having to do so much of the work. Cramming a hommage to Lovecraft's Cthluhu mythos into 20 seconds of airtime didn't help. Also the kids voice is just plain annoying. Give me evil old ladies and elder Gods from beyond this plain every time. I think it's like his collaborations with Sam Delaney or A.E.VanVogt. Who could resist? It's just more blather and wont change a pixel. 8.)28,000 hits for the 10 of us sounds about right. Lurkers can't take credit unless they de-lurk. Still I like the odds. [voice of John Wayne] "Put all the elitists in a circle and I'll feed the ammo. Hyyahh." to be continued...
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Madison: "60 square miles surrounded by reality." - local saying, - Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 17:36:01 (CDT)

Here we go, Folks -- You want it; you got it. I will take full responsibility for provinding this information. However, I will *NOT* take responsibility for the consequences thereof. Free Speech rules!!! ***Christopher Priest's email address: cpriest@cix.compulink.co.uk*** Try to at least be civil, ok? The Brits have thought we of the US (& Canada since the is Jason's domicile) are a bit whacked anyway. Don't ask for things if you don't want them! Later, gang!
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Overworked, Underpaid Tired - Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 17:24:37 (CDT)

*RICK* Good to see you survived the first week of the joke they're calling the coming together of nations. Give me a royal break. And for the record, dear, we TRY so hard to be adult here...and most of the time, the name-calling is a joke...EXCEPT for the anonymous among us. So I apologize for denigrating the integrity of my cyberspace home, but can't promise I won't do it again to another anonymous stranger. I'm just that way. I also can't promise I won't do it again to Jason, but then, I know you weren't defending him -- who'd want to? *GRIN* *WM* Thanks for the update on LDV. It seems to me, though, that after so many years, a man like Mr. Priest could find something better to do with his time. Someone gimme his e-mail address so I can tell him so. *DOC* I wish I had something to contribute to the "live long and prosper" story collection, but I'll just add my good wishes to you in future health. I don't mean to be a cybersap, but I consider anyone I know that I don't hate to be extended family -- I don't like to see any of them clashing with the doctors, or even have to see the doctors. *EVERYBODY* By the way, the above commentary on what most of you call the Olympics stands. I realize I may get something started with someone who honestly believes a person who can run fast is a hero (as compared to a firefighter, who is never offered a gold medal and rarely offered a thank you), but I'll stand by my beliefs in the wastefulness of this international event anyway. *JASON* I'll wager five dollars you've been glued to NBC for the past week and some, cheering on the world, and you're just dyin' to tell me about it. *laugh*
James C. Hess <104656,765 @Compuserve.com>
- Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 16:20:24 (CDT)

Hmmm...wandered through the comments here and I have to say one thing: Boy are YOU people cranky or what? Keep up the good work!!! Now, to those who are new here whom I have yet to anger or offend: Hey. Now bugger off. Get bent. Bite me, huh? And to those of you dat be oldies but goodies--I'm baaaaaaaaaaack! (Hah!) Anyway...Rick, are you and HE still looking for copies of that Avon thingie? I might have an extra copy about but I am not entirely sure it is the Avon version. If you do want it I will go to great lengths to unearth it from the literally thousands of boxes containing books now cluttering my humble abode. If you don't need it, good. I don't know that HE wants to *SHARE* with me anyway...hrumph. Oh, yeah...About that Epstein Barr Chronic Syndrome bit: Try gingko or ginseng in some solid yet concentrated form. It won't stop it altogether but it will combat the fatigue somewhat. (So sayeth the wise old fart who laid it on me when I took to dragging...) What else? Ummm...like I said before: Interesting topics herein. Keep at it and if you want just email me at the above email address and we can go one on one. Until next time... Jim How'd you like to be a public nuisance? I dunno. Howa much ita pay? --The Marx Brothers P.S. Rick--I assume you survived the lion's share of the Olympics?
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Mad City on The Edge....., - Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 13:20:57 (CDT)

Yo, Folks! Yup, I'm still kicking; just swamped with work. Also, there is abouta 75% chance I will no longer be at this email address after August 16. This is, however, being worked on and negotiated, but there is so much Corporate reshuffling going on around here some people don't know where they will end up from one day to the next. If I go, no big deal. I'm a Professional Consultant anyway, so although I really like the folks I work with here, somewhere else is just as good as long as I have my Techno-Geek toys and an Internet connection.... The older I get, the more mercenary I've become. There's no employer loyalty to the employee anymore, so I go where the money is. My skills in this profession are super-marketable so I usually have my pick of where I want to go. As for the TLDV dust-up, the following is my opinion of the whole thing that I shared with someone else: I don't know the entire score although I've heard plenty over the years, and for everyone but the writers who contributed the original stories in the first place, I think it's a lot of hot air. I think Harlan got into something that had grown so massive and so overwhelming that he simply couldn't handle it along with his other constant '0ne million and one' commitments. It dragged on longer and longer, until years were going by and he couldn't get the damned thing under control. So - he's Human. We knew that. I think it hurt his pride and his ego not to be able to finish it as planned, so he did what the government does -- perpetuate the lie, because the truth would make him look even worse. It doesn't make me not love him or his work any less. If he *never* gets TLDV out, it will not dimimish his own personal body of work. So?? Yes, I feel for those who have died since submitting their stories and who never got to see them in print, but it's a risk they took. To quote Captain Kirk from one of the ST novels that made him far more likeable than Shatner ever was: "Life is a risk - from that first step you took to the last meal you eat. If you don't want to risk, then phaser yourself and die!" Basically, that is my personal take on the whole thing. It would be a glorious achievement if HE ever finished TLDV, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Life is overcrowded with things that never happened. I tend to concentrate on those that *do* happen! *Also* - I have re-sent a number of emails to several of my Board pals here because something heinous and foul happened to our mail server. Since I am not in charge of it, I don't know what our WebMaster was doing, but I have since logged a possibility to the powers that be. I have other ways of getting things to work. *Jason* - the URL to my page is context-sensitive, so be sure it looks exactly like this: http:/www.angelfire.com/pages1/Wolfen/index.html Hopefully, you won't have any more problems. More later if time permits.
Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
And that's the TRUTH, PPPhhhhhhhhhhtp! }8-}~ (Edith Anne aka Lily Tomlin) - Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 11:07:59 (CDT)

Well, all - that Christopher Priest guy sure is wordy. Took s while, but I managed to read it. He kinda lost me at the beginning with his careful, thoughtful, objective disection of HE being a propagandist, since all essays (including the origonal essay Deadloss, presumably) are pamphleteering propaganda - which CP carefully, thoughtfully, and objectively applied to HE and TLDV - but not his own treatise Deadloss. The 'documentation' needed a lot of 'translation' to support the arguement. And the reality of HE (and his attorney) saw to it that 'disclaimers' were built into the Classical Rhetoric (logical fallacy) - a total of 2 (yes, I counted). One line - HE is above reproach in business and finance. So is the entire book CP wrote a lie, or is that statement (which Deadloss tries to prove)? And the second, a summing up (and ain't CP a nice guy??) of TLDV as HE 'biting off more than he could chew' attempting to do what has never been done before. I would agree with those two statements. I do not agree with the conclusion that this 'proves something' 'bad' about HE - since HE has done a few 'impossible' things in his time, and HE ain't dead yet.. I left the tome with the belief CP is not familiar with the creative process, since he doesn't seem to understand creativity isn't like tea in a tin on the shelf, waiting obediently to be packed into a ball, dunked in hot water, producing satisfying results every time.. Thought it a bit shabby for the guy to make a reputation (and I assume a nice living off the royalties) attacking the character of someone who makes a better living writing creative fiction independantly. Left me with the impression this is a guy who failed at even 'wannabe', and now is cashing in on his sour grapes.... And I was disinclined to e-mail him ANY response, since it seems 'letters' to fuel controversy ARE the updates in his 'revisions' to Deadloss, and only serve to 'sell' his book (feeding his bank account and ego).....And BTW - am I the only one who never heard of this guy, or his 'Award Winning' work, despite reading darn near everything skiffy???.........**RICK** You OK? Haven't heard from you since the Atlanta Bombing became the _only_ news.. Just a "hey" will do.. Kinda hoping you are so busy being +loved+, you haven't had time to tag in anywhere else..(;-)... **DOC** bummer on the medcial front.. Years ago, married 4 mos. and pregnant, a Dr. 'gave me the news' I wouldn't live to see 30, should abort the child,..and give up smoking.. That last one got me - asked him how long it takes to develop cancer - Ohhh, 25-30 yrs.. - I told him I'd be dead long before that, and stomped out. Got a new doctor. I'll be 46 in Oct. - still riding a bike - still a smoker - and that baby I didn't abort just got married - and I'm still banking on the curmudgeons outliving the 'nicey-nicey'.. ];-)... And, that Dr. died of a heart attack 5 years ago - healthy looking in that box, tan from jogging, no taint of tobacco.. snicker.. It aint what *they* say...it's what You do... Hang tough.. Think I'll do my daily treatment - read a little more HE.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Jason
- Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 10:54:00 (CDT)

Sorry Rick but I thoguht L. Urker's comment needed to be addressed. Anyway, looking forward to that article, and I hope that you and your friends are all alright down in Atlanta. By the way if you're still trying to get Peter David to give you FOE info, then try writing in to the Incredible Hulk or Aquaman comic book, which he writes. Someone successfully lobbied for a Rick Jones trading card, and maybe if the rest of us pitch in Peter David will have no choice but to capitulate. Or we might all be charged with harassment. Maybe part og the letter should comment on the comic book. I'll post at least one address later today.
Rick Wyatt <webmaster@harlanellison.com>
- Wednesday, July 31, 1996 at 09:40:08 (CDT)

Yes, that was Webderland Harlan was talking about on Tom Snyder - next time I'll see about getting the URL on there! As for _The Last Dangerous Visions_, well, that is an ugly and sordid mess and I don't have the time it would take to explain. I am supposed to be getting journalists Rick Cusick's excellent article on the Enemies of Ellison and their involvement with that tome and his excellent review of Mr. Priest's work online soon, so please be patient and hopefully these will answer any and all questions. Both articles are very long and detailed. Finally, although I will not edit the board, nor do I desire to censor anything here, I would like to try to influence you to not degenerate into name-calling on here. It's fine to disagree, but please don't let it degenerate into a playground mentality and please don't dignify childish behavior with a response - just ignore it. Abusus non tollit usum.
Doc
Deni-zone, (Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz,...) - Tuesday, July 30, 1996 at 00:53:11 (CDT)

Hidey-ho, net-neighbors! *Kris(10), and Jason* nice to know I'm not the only one who belongs to a mutual-aggravation society. The only gripe I'm aware of re: TLDV, is that HE's been at it for an awful long time; while I trust our dear Unca Harlan implicitly, I (as a writer, TOO) can understand the frustration of slaving over material all new and edgy (sp?), and waiting and waiting for it to appear. It ain't just a pay-check, in spite of Dr. Johnson's remark. Still, I am content to wait until HE says "It's soup." *Jason* re: the Disney story can be found, in HE's own words, in, um, one of the collections, either "Stalking the Nightmare," or "Shatterday." It's a three anecdote segment. "'Walt waaaaants you,...'" And perhaps I should suggest that L. Urker go "urk"-off someplace. *WolfMistress* the doctor said zip. The physicians assistant said plenty, less than a model of grace and charm - no-one ever convinced a guy like me to quit smoking by nagging, bullying, kvetching, nuhdzing, or like that; the more they pontificate, the harder I puff. Natural mulishness. Learned it at Unca Harlan's knee. Anyhoo, the creep drew @ a gallon of blood to test me for (I presume, among other things; he took enough to test me for dust) arthritis, which I'm sure I misspelled, and which runs in my family (like diabetes, asthma, et al) like grassfire in a dry county. He got me so worked-up and cheezed, I elected to wait until I saw an actual sawbones to query the CFS angle. *Rick* need a guest-rant? I'm ripe, man, I'm tellin' ya,...Moustache (read as, "Must dash,...") >:} love, Doc
Anakin O'Hara <TBA>
Newington,, Connecticut U.S.A! - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 19:31:07 (CDT)

Hi, this is Anakin, sorry I haven't been around for a while, but I have been at the chat line. Keegan, Sue, Rick, I miss ya! Yes, Mara Skywalker is still alive and raising heck on the chat line, but it seems like my little chat line may be going the way of the dodo, sad, but it'll pull through. I'm glad to hear that Harlan is doing well, and hopefully when I get that d@mn PC, I'll send E-Mail, so stay cool and keep away from the Angry Candy. Ciao, Anakin!!!!
Jason <really irratated>
Really Irritated, - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 19:22:49 (CDT)

Wolfmistress can't get to your page which is bull#%$@! because I used to be able to get there when you first mentioned it. So if you can e-mail it I'd be grateful. I hope I don't find out some one is censoring my server... and on that ominous note I bid you all farewell
Jason
- Monday, July 29, 1996 at 19:14:00 (CDT)

Kris(ten) hate to tell you, but wrong again my friend, we do agree on one thing, HE is a great writer ;-) other than that you're pretty much right, but then again the world would be so boring if everyone agreed on everything. L. Urker if need your help I'll ask for it by NAME (I'd be doing that about the time Vega becomes the North star which is several millions years away) Kris(ten) I went back to archive to find the start of the argument, couldn't find it, so maybe we should lighten up on Jeremy on that point, (and that point only) but it seemed to me that a company that let the proof the book nine times, isn't just a money grubbing company, and that they were planning a quality book, but ka-ka happenend. Wolfmistress about to check now I'll let you know. One thing if I read it correctly on the links page, Cristopher Preist the author had his story turned down by HE for the book which explains a lot. Jason
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
McNuggetland, U.S.A. (home of the Hap-hap-happy Meal!) - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 18:10:28 (CDT)

Jason: I FAITHFULLY skimmed all the way back (on lynx, this is not a fun task, and yes, I know I need netscape, but I operate just fine under normal conditions at this particular level of technology, thank you) to July 15 to read Scarlett's post. What was I supposed to think (that is, if I read the right thing)? I absolutely unconditionally expected Harlan to apologize to the people who sign his paychecks for putting his much-revered-name on shoddy work. He wouldn't be my Unca Harlan or deserve my respect, nor would he be true to his own views about literature and quality, if he had done otherwise. I felt absolutely awful for him in the light the Edgeworks controversy. Although there have been moments of questionable ethics in his life -- according to him -- Harlan has never given the readers anything less than his highest respect and greatest integrity. I like reading and enjoying the work of someone who takes pride in the fact that I'm reading and enjoying it. *L. URKER* Aw, come on, now, show your face. If you'd been reading long enough, you'd know how little I really appreciate anonymity -- just ask my now-dear friend Wolfmistress. If you slink your way out of the shadows, dear, there might be a good twelve-step program for your problem of blinding attacking strangers you don't know. For the record, since I can't e-mail you to explain, I LOVE Jason. Really. Probably. It's always been my belief that he's an extremely good-looking guy. But Jason and me, we agree on NOTHING, simply because of the principle of the thing. So we argue and say nasty things to each other, all the while covering a deep, unspoken, internet passion. But sometimes he gets on my nerves, and that's when he gets told to go the hell away or play in traffic, whichever comes to mind first. But I'd worry if he ignored me (he'd be ill) or needed to be defended from me. So come on out, L. Urker, I'm sure we can help you. *WM* I've never understood the arguments over The Last Dangerous Visions. I know it's an awful way to think, esp. since I'm a writer, but those people did all get paid, didn't they? and so why are they griping again? Unless the contract specifically stated a date of publication, I'm not so sure I understand the complaints -- could someone be so kind as to e-mail or "comment" me the short version of the story?
WolfMistress <Still chewing....>
Mad Town, USA, - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 14:52:02 (CDT)

*DOC* -- Just a quick note: How did your Doctor's appointment go Friday?? Do you really have the dreaded CFS or is it just a little oddness unique to Denisonians?!? Hope your Birthday Celebration was everything short of the loss of anatomical parts or dismemberment of needed appendages. *JASON* - try accessing it from my homepage www.angelfire.com/Wolfen/index.html. If that doesn't work, there are other ways I can *make* it work. To quote Scar from The Lion King: "Stick with me and you'll never go hungry again!" (for stuff off the Web, that is)! Also tried the link to the Ellison & Disney article and got back "Unknown Host" error. Maybe it has gone by-by?1? With the setup I've got here, it it's out there *anywhere* I could find it. Seems that one has gone belly up. Let me know if you get to "Deadloss" through my page.
Jason Kuroshima <yu104681@yorku.ca>
Scarborough, Ontario Canada - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 14:03:23 (CDT)

Thank you WolfMistress, I tried to get to the last deadloss visions, but my server says it can't find it. Rick talks about why he doesn't have a link to on the links page. Probably a few HE fans did respond because the author asked Rick to remove it. To everyone there are several links on Ricks page I can't get to including the list of HE stories Ace's Ellison homepage and The story about Ellisons employment with Disney. If any one can get these pages or has the information on them with the ability to e-mail them to me, I'd appreciate it
WolfMistress <rwhiteanderson@kraft.com>
Dreams With Sharp Teeth Chewing Angry Candy...., - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 12:49:12 (CDT)

Yo, Gang! -- Glad to see everyone back in fighting trim, as it were! *Kris(ten)* - Good to see you bouncing back! *Jason* - I see you're in fine form as well. *Everyone else*, new or otherwise, Wilkommen from Madison, WI! Anyway, I had an idea for a discussion topic, but maybe it's already been done (I didn't read *all* the archives.), or no one here is inclined to partake in it because of the subject matter and our loyalty to HE. I am referring to Christopher Priest's The Last Deadloss Visions. If anyone is unfamiliar with this treatise, it concerns the last volume of the "Dangerous Visions" trilogy, and was written a couple years ago by Mr. Priest. It can be found in its entirety at: http//ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/deadloss.html. I printed the entire thing off some months ago, and read it very carefully. Then a set it aside, waited awhile and read it again. I think that by now, I have read the thing maybe a dozen times. The main thing which disturbs me about it is the following statement made by Mr. Priest: "The letters included here reveal something that cannot be emphasized forcefully enough. No one who has read Deadloss, "not a single person, in the fannish world or the professional", has stepped forward to defend Mr. Ellison." In all fairness, I would recommend reading Mr. Priest's treatise in its entirety before making any comments. I am interested in the opinions of all of us who are undoubtedly "Friends of Ellison", whether we've joined the official group or not. If this is a taboo subject, I would be interested in knowing *why* it should be taboo. If there is nothing to hide, there shouldn't be any reason for there *not* to be open discussion. Now I shall quietly wait for the Fire and Brimstone to rain down upon my head for bringing it up in the first place..... Happy Monday, Folks!
Jason
- Monday, July 29, 1996 at 11:51:48 (CDT)

Well said Kris(ten). L. Urker should mind his own business. (I mean where would we be if Harlan had learned to play nice?) Point taken on apples & oranges thing; You ignored them in the commentary, and I ignored them in the book. But honestly didn't your nose get a little tweaked at the term 'Manifesto' in Onyx? I just found it hard to take him seriously, with errors like that. By the way read Scarlett's post on July 15th and tell me what you think. I'll see you in the Silver Corridor hon. Jason :-)
Jason
- Monday, July 29, 1996 at 11:42:09 (CDT)

Well said Kris(ten). L. Urker should mind his own business. (I mean where would we be if Harlan had learned to play nice?) Point taken on apples & oranges thing; You ignored them in the commentary, and I ignored them in the book. But honestly didn't your nose get a little tweaked at the term 'Manifesto' in Onyx? I just found it hard to take him seriously, with errors like that. By the way read Scarlett's post on July 15th and tell me what you think. I'll see you in the Silver Corridor hon. Jason :-)
Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Coming to you LIVE from the outskirts of Hell, still grinnin'... - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 11:41:29 (CDT)

Yup, Hell, MI is just down the road (a party store/gift shop and a bar).. oh, yeah,.. and where our local ABATE meets and rides out of.. Well, this must be da place...sniff,sniff... Yup, the acrid smell of Attytude.. So nice to be HOME.. Is it just me, or are we getting a "Southern slant" around here lately? **DOC** I've decided you MUST move to Denton - 'Doc Denton' has such a nice sound to it... (;-)~ .... And I gotta agree **KRIS(TEN)** - those Archives are there for a reason. I read 'em all when I first barged my way onto this Board. After all, Rick took the time to put them there, so newcomers wouldn't look so _Dumb_ re-inventing the wheel, and shooting from the lip without knowing where to aim.. Well, *I* didn't look so _Dumb_.... ]}:-)~ .... Seems your Attytude is raising that hind leg high - glad things are getting 'back to normal' for you...**KEEGAN** plug that computer in, willya?? We miss you.. And now we have a **REV DR** in our midst.. I kinda like that - sounds a little like a biker thang.. **BILL** glad ta hear from you again - and keep up the good work.. Why, two more like you, and we could boost the hits 50% (and I can slow down a little.. Is it possible to wear out a bookmark??).. GEEZ - this keeps up, I'm gonna hafta start taking notes when I scroll the Board, just so I don't miss someone new in the "Howdies".. I've been a 'wee' busy making my own real life waves (Klan problems again - they're not too bright, are they??), but this time WE do the 'message sending'.. And I'm not doing a solo act.. Which makes my husband a whole lot happier He's spent 24 yrs. following me around, waiting to 'rescue' me.. Never had the chance yet.. Which begs the question - am I Not Fair, Not a Damsel, or Not in distress (most likely, I'm *causing* de stress.. 0(8-)..).. Last of the guests left last night, so I'll finally get to READ a little (during those fuzzy-faced melodramatic 'personal' interludes that regularly interupt the Olympics). Yeah, I've been Olympicized.. And it is just me, or is there a half hours of 'fill' for every minute of event on that?? Well, gives plenty of time for snacks and potty.. And reading.....TRY HIGH - FLY STRAIGHT - DRIVE SAFE
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
- Monday, July 29, 1996 at 09:02:07 (CDT)

Jason, you know I really do love ya, babe, so much that I'm gonna offer you a little advice of my own. Never take the advice of anyone who's not sure enough or proud enough of it to sign their name to it. If we both enjoy a good battle now and again, who is the new, anonymous guy to say otherwise?
L. Urker <Same as below>
Ditto, again;, " " - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 00:29:13 (CDT)

Whoops! Kristen. I meant Kris-ten. Otherwise, everything else stands.
L. Urker <First Star to the right, straight on till morning...>
Ditto, Sleepy "Murrica! - Monday, July 29, 1996 at 00:24:39 (CDT)

Jason: I'd leave this Kirsten chick alone. She's obviously a witch with an itch, and she just wants you to scratch it (and no, I didn't get the spelling wrong on any of those words). In other words, son, she's just yankin your chain. This public service announcement was brought to you by "Wake up and smell the coffee," makers of old fashioned remedies and such. (Kirsten: go home until you learn to play nice with others). Th-th-th-that's all, folks!
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Boogieworld, - Sunday, July 28, 1996 at 22:11:23 (CDT)

At the risk of making you feel better, Mr. Lassen, *I* managed to ignore the mistakes in your commentary. After all, I didn't have to pay for them, and that makes the situation apples and oranges. Jason, why doncha do the world a favor and go play in traffic, hon.
Jason
- Sunday, July 28, 1996 at 21:43:10 (CDT)

I have just one thing to say to Mr. Lassen; People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
The Rev. Dr. Corey Bantik <bantik@bga.com>
Austin, Texas - Sunday, July 28, 1996 at 20:16:54 (CDT)

*HEY, DOC!* The antiChrist was born on July 24, 1996 at 10:03 PM. And she's got the most beautiful blue eyes... call us. Gratuitous HE comment to keep on-topic: _Angry Candy_ is the most-often-borrowed-and-ne'er-returned book from my entire library, even beating out the Illuminatus trilogy.
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Washington, D.C. (Home of the X-Files) - Sunday, July 28, 1996 at 10:41:38 (CDT)

Uh Jeremy, Love, I don't mean to blow your mind, but we slammed this one around last May/June when we all first got our hands on the book. Please see the archives (Rick has 'em somewhere) for some of my most stellar ranting on this subject...and for the others' commentary on same. And in an attempt to update my ranting, I did write White Wolf a really nasty letter, and I did get a response apologizing for my dissatisfaction and promising better in the future. Life goes on, I suppose.
Jeremy Lassen <jlassen@ax.com>
San Diego, CA - Sunday, July 28, 1996 at 04:02:39 (CDT)

SO, I don't know who I am more pissed at. HE for turning if a shoddy manuscript, or White wolf for publishing an obviously flawed manuscipt, typos and all. An edge in my voice is sort of a dissapointment in my eyes. I was hoping for a "definitive" text, but the quality of the copy editing (random tabs in the middle of the page!?!? come ON!!!) is truly a disapointement.. I spooke with some Yahoo at White Wolfs booth at the San Diego Comic con, and asked him about the possibility of a corrected second printing, and he got defensive, and said "Hey, we only publish what harlen gives us... He wanted the text to be exactly as we published it". uhh huh... Not only does the book have the typos, but it also has the most godawful layout and bookdesign (white wolf thinks they are cutting edge, I think they are annoying! To many books in their lines are poorly designed... and yes, *I* HAVE done better...) If the quality does not pick up, I will spend my money on book club editions and paperbacks before I buy more shoddilly produced edge works volumns. Ellison sould be pissed! AFter going of on Mark Zeising about the typo on the dedication page of Manifesto in Onyx, as well as the missplacement of said page...sheesh... At least Mark admited he made a mistake. White wolf is shucking it all on Ellison! I for one would rather get more Borderlands, signed and numbered volumns, but I guess white wolf offered Ellison more money... Poor Tom Montelone. Ever the gentleman, he has never publicly bitched about getting the shaft... Comments, anyone?
Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Lake City, UT U.S. of Assholes - Friday, July 26, 1996 at 12:21:06 (CDT)

On the Snyder appearance a couple of weeks ago, HE mentioned a website that had received 28,000 hits since last September. Was HE referring to our own illustrious Webderland? And if so, Rick, did you inform him that it was most likely the same 10 of us 2800 times each? ;-) Bill
Jason <yu104681@yorku.ca>
- Friday, July 26, 1996 at 00:24:17 (CDT)

Apologies to everyone at whom this next post is not directed at. Kris I'm going ask this once, is it possible you're transfering some of your anger on the problems you're currently experiencing to me? because I certainly don't see anything in my post to deserve such venom. You attacked my opinion first remember? and I probably would have let it go if you had used another phrase. You could have said 'people who apparently have no taste were knocking Gramma' you would still be wrong of course, but I would have let it go, but you called my opinion uninformed, which is on the lines of saying if you disagree with me it's because you don't know anything about it. Which is really an illogical thing to say. As I understand the word uninformed, in order to be uninformed about Gramma, I either would have to a) not seen Gramma or b) not seen anything else to compare it to. Both of which are obviously not true, so the description uninformed doesn't fit, which is essentialy my point in the previous post. Yes in response I challenged your opinion, on the basis of when you saw the episode and your ability to remember it objectively, because I really didn't like the term uninformed. Your post suggested you saw the episode as a child, so I built my challenge on that. As for the original story it's really irrelevant because I was dicuss the screen treatment, it could the most terrifying tale in the universe, and it wouldn't matter because it didn't transfer to the screen. You may not agree with my opinion and that's fine, you can post that opinion here and that's fine, but don't insult me because you disagree with mine. What's this game you're talking about? Well on that point you're right I don't get it. BTW don't be so proud about how it's an impossible task it is to change your opinions. As HE said somewhere in the Hornbook I believe, Consistency means I'm just as ignorant today as I was a year ago (Mathcmaker, Matchmaker make me a match...)
Jason
- Thursday, July 25, 1996 at 22:56:17 (CDT)

I've been speaking to a couple of people about acquiring additional Harlan appearances right now I can watch them but I can't get copies to duplicate. There's still possibilities but it's not likely to come through if I have to I'll tape record the interviews, but I'll wait on that. So I'll send you whatever I have, I just need to know who wants it, and if you will be sending me a tape to use or will I be buying them. Fearing the possibilities that I will be recieving more tapes than Bob Saget Jason
Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
(...and now a word from our sponsor...), - Thursday, July 25, 1996 at 21:14:16 (CDT)

DOC: Denison? As in Denison, Texas, right? I know I at least caught the Last Picture Show reference somewhere, but I skimmed too fast...If so, how far away are