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Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for caring. My friend didn't get a decent defense. He's not being offered the chance to defend himself. He's being told to do what is always done here Shaft-You County, CA...He's being told to "cop a plea". Everybody does it. Everybody. It doesn't matter if you're innocent or not. No one really gives a shit. I realize you probably can't grasp just how bad it is around here. And there's no reason for any of y'all to care. But it's VERY bad around here. It's a f'ckin' nightmare. If you can't afford an attorney, and if you're charged with a crime, you do time, or you do community service. End of story. Only he's not going to make it in prison. He's a dwarf. A "freak". And he's a genius. And a virtual recluse. They'll destroy him in there.
I have to go feed my son. He's finally decided to come home, 'cause he's hungry. Bye for now.
Diana
Chuck: BLAM!
Be careful what you ask for, you just may get it.
---Peter
Okay, so I'm posting a lot. Shoot me.
Brian,
I had a look at your Flashman site. I only got a glance, but I'm going back to get a better look. What I saw was very interesting. I've read Fraser's non-fiction book, THE HOLLYWOOD HISTORY OF THE WORLD. That's where I first read about the Flashman novels. I've wanted to start reading some, but I've got a few more books to finish before I get to them. I LOVED his treamtent of the Musketeers films - the authentic touches in the script only added to both movie's versimilitude. I also enjoy the broad humor, sly humor, right down to the grumbling of the servants. I imagine Flashman has the same kind of historical veracity and humor of the Musketeers, only more so.
Chuck
Diana,
Sorry to hear about your friend being charged with murder. It sounds like a bogus accusation. I hope your friend gets a decent lawyer. It seems the most vulnerable among us gets ganged up on the most. Here's to a quick end to his/her troubles.
And, your worries.
Chuck
Harlan,
I feel I must point out a glaring mistake in your latest posting. I usually don't do this sort of thing, especially with your august self.
Still, it WAS an error on your part.
"...if you aren't too unhinged by actually doing a little *work* and READING THE STORY..."
Really. Work? Reading A Boy and His Dog is a distinct pleasure. One these little ankle-biters have not yet experienced. Perhaps someday they'll realize there is an effective remedy for their condition: read the goddamn story, for chrissakes.
So watch your ass. I'm keeping my eye on you, Ellison.
Chuck
Eric,
[[beth
Duluth, MN USA - Thursday, January 30 2003 8:7:30
I just recently WATCHED THE FILM (caps mine) "A Boy and His Dog" and am interested to know why cannabalism was not running rampant in the post-halocaustic culture? If it was undertaken with such nonchalance by Don Johson in the movie, why wasn't it more prevalent throughout the film?]]
Beth did mention she saw the film, not 24-48 hours after others in the class made similar posts. She had the same location, Duluth. It's really not that big a stretch to conclude she was just another student.
People here were actually rather helpful with some of their responses to the previous inquiries, one or two of which showed at least a LITTLE insight. I'd say Harlan was doing a bit of a slow burn over these posts, and Beth was the last straw. This group wasn't being all THAT snarky to these latest victims from the "wuss class".
Yes, we can all just get along. Just don't poke the webderlanders with a stick. Especially the Ellison. One might get a well-written roasting. Nothing to die from, though.
Chuck
To Whom It May Concern:
I'm very upset now. I just found out that a friend of mine, who I haven't communicated with in a while has been charged with murder. His mother, basically killed herself, she starved herslf to death. (She was mentally ill) Anyway, he's been charged with manslaughter. And believe me when I tell you this isn't someone who's in any way capable of dealing with prison. Physically, or mentally. He's a "little" person, I guess is the present PC term for it these days. And brilliant. And talented. And shy. And reclusive.(I'd give y'all the url for the on-line gallery that has some of his art work on view, but then you'd all know his name. I mean I don't think I have a right to expose him like that)
He's not guilty. And he's broke. His main source of income is from where he works part-time as a janitor in a local art supply store. So he's depending on a public defender.
He's very very tired. That's how he seems. Tired, and scared, and small. I wish I could help him. He's in a lot of trouble.
There' nothiing I can think of to do.
Bye for now.
Diana
To Ms. P.A.Berman:
See, it's not just me. You understand. Don't you just love when he does that (whatever it is) THING, he does? I know I do. It relaxes me. Sam Kinison had the same effect on me. He was so damned fierce and nasty that he calmed me down.
And haven't most of us had to do that "thing" ourselves on occasion? I know I have. As kind of a last resort when I've been trying to be polite to somebody who insists on talking to me, like when I'm waiting for a bus, or something. And they persist in being annoying. And I keep being polite but I keep getting more and more annoyed, because they keep bothering me, and then finally I lose it, and I say something. And then they stop talking atogether. Such a relief.
Most of us have had to do it at some point. It's self-defense. So why act all..."Oh, he's so very harsh" like you're surprised and shocked when H.E. does it?
I even needled him the other day to get him to do it some more. Which, of course he did. And it was good. You know y'all loved it.
Bye for now.
Diana
Peter, sorry, yes, I know the difference between homophones and homonyms. Just feeling punchy-- I graded 300+ English Regents in 2.5 days, and wrote a sestina to boot, not to mention getting in a car accident somewhere in the middle. Enough to fry anyone's circuitry.
I sent the sestina. Thanks.
PAB
Y'know, only a few years after I first met Harlan, I was at some convention up in Canada where he was on a panel. Someone was all upset over "A Boy and His Dog" then, too. The only cannibalism I witnessed was when Harlan chewed the woman's ass off and spit it out.
This would about 1970. Think about that. Here's a story that was immeidate enough to upset people in 1969, and it's still upsetting people over 30 years later. Harlan, you should be quietly proud. Or noisily so, if you prefer.
I just corrupted my 14-year-old daughter with "Repent, Harlequin! Said the Ticktockman." Even her English teacher loved that one. Must not be upsetting enough.
Oh, and feel free to send the sestina my way if you'd like.
---Peter
P.A. Berman:
No, you *can* change nouns into verb form. Which is what I meant about words with various meanings: homonyms. It's the homophones, like they're, there, and their which are cheating. They can be the same word with different meanings, or even different tenses of the verb form, but they cannot be different words that sound the same but are spelled differently. No to, two, and too.
Example of what you can use. Turn Right. It's Right. I'll Right (that wrong). Her Rights. These are all valid ends.
Example of what not to use. Turn right. I write. Are homophonous, not homonymic, therefore don't count.
I hope this clears things up. Noun to verb form homonyms and verb tenses are OK.
---Peter
Re: the flock of students-- How 'bout this? We let Mr. Ellison eviscerate whomever he feels needs to have their guts aired out. After all, it is his story they're slandering, plus, when he gets his snark on, we love him for it, don't we? I pop corn and watch (a bit of schadenfreude-- you know you do it too).
We, for our part, can direct them to the appropriate portions of the archive if we wish. Direct them to the novella. Or (here's a radical idea)-- ignore them. The only risk in that is that we could miss out on a potential Zoe, but really, how could anyone ever top Zoe anyway?
Bermanator
Eric- The professor is NOT teaching Ellison, in fact. He's showing a movie that's based off of one of his books, but regretably doesn't let the students know this. He specifically tells the students that the movie is Harlan's and that questions about interpretation of the MOVIE should be directed here. In fact, it's an assignment to post questions about the movie here. Furthermore, the PROFESSOR HIMSELF attributes the movie to Harlan Ellison, or at least did when I took the course. That is teaching incorrect information. It would make far more sense to have the students read the story _and_ watch the movie and THEN post thoughts/questions/comments here. Or just read the story. Harlan authored the story and not the movie - that should be an advertised fact in the coursework. It's not. Obviously.
And personally, I think if someone went up to Harlan in a bar/restaurant/whatever, and asked about "his" movie "ABAHD", the poor chap would be likely to get his or her head lopped off, stir fried with the brains, handed back and sent on his or her way with the bill for the food.
See? I can learn.
--Zoë Rose
>But coming on the heels of a couple others who admitted coming from a class<
Well, I must have missed that. But my last point, I hope, stands: they're here. They could be anywhere else...L. Ron Hubbard's site? Or maybe a discussion on the latest Michael Crichton treatment, excuse me, book?
It's like the car-and-driver syndrome. The same people we scream and curse at on the highway, we'd be polite as pie to in the supermarket checkout line. It's easy to fry the students online, and bash there teacher (who IS, I might add, teaching Ellison...mine never did), but were we all at a bar, and some kid came in and asked the same questions, the responses would be a little warmer, methinks.
The Internet is a cold place.
For crying out loud. Anybody who knows anything about Harlan Ellison knows how he gets sometimes. So what? He's LIKE that. He can be sharp, and cutting, and impatient. So what? MUST he be "explained" to people? Like, "He's really a Good Beast. Never you mind his shiny fangs and the blood dripping from his muzzle. HE had REASONS for eating that man's liver. GOOD reasons. You'll see"
("If you live through the night!"
I don't think he's all that "terrible" anyway. I like it that acts the way he acts. I think he's funny. I don't think he needs explaining. You either enjoy his shit, or you don't. Like a friend of mine always says sometimes, "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke"
Of course, maybe it's just me.
Diana
Peter: Thanks so much for your URL and for posting your excellent sestina. I actually had done a lot of what you recommended instinctively--I made a map with numbered words and set up the words on the map. From there it sort of wrote itself.
I stayed up WAY too late last night banging it out (it wouldn't let me sleep until it was complete).
A question: you said you're NOT allowed to switch an end word from a noun form to a verb form? Really? That hurts. I don't know if I can do that. Also, the iambic pentameter is a hell of a challenge. I take it you can have a few lines that deviate from the meter, yes?
If I get this poem to a fairly decent state, can I send it to you for a critique?
Thanks,
Bermanator
Eric said:"Lynn, re: the Duluth address. I suppose, given the history, that your chances at the crap table are greatly improved. But it's still an educated guess that Beth was coming from class, and it's no proof that any court would honor."
But coming on the heels of a couple others who admitted coming from a class where they watched the movie and were told to pester us with questions would constitute this as a pattern, and while still circumstantial, is a hell of a lot more than just an educated guess.
---Peter
Lynn, re: the Duluth address. I suppose, given the history, that your chances at the crap table are greatly improved. But it's still an educated guess that Beth was coming from class, and it's no proof that any court would honor.
Given that just under 100% of the world's population does not read Ellison, or see films based on his work, I would think it prudent to treat the precious few who do with a tad more kindness, regardless of where they came from or why they're here. After all, Webderland does not enjoy a glut of participants. Indeed there are times, days even, that the Brady Bunch fields a larger team.
One last thing - just as an FYI: Most - not all, but most - of the students don't ever return to the Webderland (or any other author's forums we were required to post at) to see if they'd gotten a response. Ever. In other words, many of these finely worded exposes on the stupidity of certain students, professors or classes are in vain. Though they did get me to stay, somehow. Some perversion of being attracted to verbal slaughter, I guess. But just FYI, that's what I discovered when talking to other students in the same course. They'd post and forget.
--Zoë Rose
Hey all,
I just want to say I /did/ forward a copy of Harlan's "helpful" diagnosis of my "goddamned cleverness" to the instructor in question at the University of Minnesota - Duluth when I was taking the same course as Beth and friends. And he did say he would look into reorganizing how that particular assignment was supposed to work. I did my part! And yes, he did express sympathy at the response I received. What I'm not sure he got from my e-mailed suggestions to him is that folks here - most notably, of course, our patron author - don't /like/ having the movie associated with Harlan Ellison. The story, yes. The movie, no. /I/ certainly got the message. Heh. How could I miss it?
But I did try.
I'm just smiling now, remembering something about "eviscerated corpses" and "like the daughter I never wanted" from my own, personal "correction". Aaah. Memory lane, as someone said earlier.
Onto another line of thought - my dad sent me a rather amusing e-mail containing the song "If you're happy and you know it..." except, instead of "clap your hands" every line ends with "bomb Iraq". It's funny, whatever your views are on the subject. It's long though (about 6 verses), so if you'd like to see it just drop me an e-mail.
--Zoë Rose
I thought H.E. was just trying be helpful to Beth & Co. What'd he say that was all that harsh? It looked to me like he was just being his usual irascible, but lovable self.
Ignorance and arrogance are curable conditions. Those kids have been blessed. They've been given a diagnosis by Ol' Doc Ellison himself. They can go fix what ails 'em, now that they know what's wrong. That's a good thing
Diana
Stupid quote of the week:
“The al–Qaida network is not America’s most dangerous enemy, To fight only the al–Qaida enemy is to miss the terrorist network operating within our own borders. Who are these traitors? Every rotten, radical left-winger in this country, that’s who."
--Michael Savage.
David~ Sounds like something from Ted Kaczynski's rambling manifesto, or something that Osama might publish. Either that, or it's a clambake reference.
I'm really curious to know where it originates now...
L.
Eric~
Actually, the professor in question and the university in question are in Duluth, MN, which in fact, Beth's post did advertise. And after such a long time, if the prof hasn't warned his students to approach this board with care, then the roast fest is fair and not uncalled for.
L.
Frank:
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was so confused and stuff. :=)
Diana
You think you're the first gibbering, ill-informed, arrogant but essentially dopey student we've had to slap around on this site? We've been visited by your predecessors for years.
-Harlan Ellison
I just love memory lane.
-Benjamin A.A. Winfield
Not to take issue with the Webderland Welcome Wagon, famed throughout cyberspace for its ritualistic ka-bobbing of hapless newbies, but nowhere in Beth's smallish post do I find any reference that she watched the film for a class.
A university e-mail address is hardly evidence for a slacker professor fobbing off film over literature. Perhaps the roast-the-teachers cauldron was fired up a little too quickly this time?
Diana, a song is a composition, and a composition is a song--get it? ;-)
-----------
Someone may need to find a suitable skin grafting clinic for our Beth.
"I have stepped into a world; a barren city which seemed at first as if it were a fortress against me. I built bridges over troubled waters, overcame obstacles that seemed sure to kill me, brought in resources unavailable to most and learned to maintain a lifestyle of success and pleasure without surrender to virtue. Be the keys any other than patience and will, then I am blind and vulnerable. One must accept the illusion that the roadblocks aren't there and seek out the dreams which their heart draws in. When I die I shall find peace! I will carry it with me then as I do life now. Our average people are untouchable to fate, immortal to suicide, and immovable to reason. I am a child, an angel to a lesser god and destined to heaven's ghetto. There is a challenge here; it brings forth a whole new army but I have a trick up my sleeve and a war to attend."
from _Yes I Can!_ by Carrot Top.
Rick, it might be time to add an FAQ on "A Boy and his Dog" to the site. I'll take a crack at writing it, if you'd like.
To Beth: Yeah, Harlan's words hurt. But you did make several mistakes, and Harlan's had these same mistakes thrown at him so long that any civility on the matter has worn away. Sure, get angry if you want... but next time, _be prepared_.
Instead, I strongly suggest that you look at your _teacher_ as an evil-minded charlatan. After all, he tried to fob the movie on you as a substitute for the written word. If he was doing his job _right_, you would have read the story, and known what the true ending really was, Thus, _he_ encouraged you, a young, eager student, to step up and ask a dumb question. The fucker _set you up_. I bet he'll sound all sympathetic when you tell him about Evil Harlan. DO NOT BELIEVE HIM.
What you should do, Beth, is read the original story, and write a single-page essay about why the endings of the movie and the story differ, and how it changes the meaning. A finish it with the observation that the teacher was WRONG to present the movie as the equivalent of the story. Hand it out to your classmates. Perhaps they'll be warned about this bottom-feeding charlatan, too.
Let your school feel your wrath, Beth. Give vent to your own Inner Harlan. Just come back and tell us about it when you do.
To David Loftus:
I believe those were the lost verses for that 1970's musical classic, "Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, (I Have Love In My Tummy)"
But I'm not sure. So don't quote me on that.
Diana
A friend asked if I recognized the following passage. I don't. Anybody else know what it's from?
I have stepped into a world; a barren city which seemed at first as if it were a fortress against me. I built bridges over troubled waters, overcame obstacles that seemed sure to kill me, brought in resources unavailable to most and learned to maintain a lifestyle of success and pleasure without surrender to virtue. Be the keys any other than patience and will, then I am blind and vulnerable. One must accept the illusion that the roadblocks aren't there and seek out the dreams which their heart draws in. When I die I shall find peace! I will carry it with me then as I do life now. Our average people are untouchable to fate, immortal to suicide, and immovable to reason. I am a child, an angel to a lesser god and destined to heaven's ghetto. There is a challenge here; it brings forth a whole new army but I have a trick up my sleeve and a war to attend.
I love you Mr. Ellison...you're soooo mean.
That one has "locked post" written all over it.
REPLY TO BETH & HER CLASSMATES:
There is NO cannibalism in "A Boy and his Dog," neither in the novella as I wrote it--which, if you aren't too unhinged by actually doing a little work and READING THE STORY would benefit you enormously--nor in the film as you viewed it. You are a slovenly observer. Go back, read and/or view; and ask yourself the question WHO ACTUALLY EATS THE MEAT? This small effort on your part will free you of the misconception that cannibalism is even present in the story . . . or the film, for that matter.
And would the rest of you here in Webderland PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE direct these ignorant kids, playing at getting an education, to the proper archive sites so they can see what all their little classroom predecessors have absorbed long since?!?!
PLEASE.
As for Beth and the two/three others who've lazily manifested themselves here of late, yes, your instructor is at it again; and I've even spoken to him, and asked him to cease taking the idiot route of trying to let a little light into your student heads by the moronic viewing of a movie, when the actual literary artifact serves better, and is readily accesible.
You think you're the first gibbering, ill-informed, arrogant but essentially dopey student we've had to slap around on this site? We've been visited by your predecessors for years. Some have been (happily for me) so insulted, so shat-upon, so disrespected and blown off, that they've limped out of here like the simians they are. But a few--and Zoe is a loveable example--have perceived that they weren't as goddam clever as they thought they were, they've put aside the sophomoric "opinions," and they've hung out here (to their pleasure and betterment) for a considerable length of time. But do not perceive of yourself, Beth, as a rare jewel, existant in the universe in the number of one: this crap has been going on with your classmates for years.
So show this post to your instructor, and go delight yourself by obtaining a copy of the story 'A Boy and his Dog," and READ IT, read what you need to get your opinion some gravitas. Do your homework, even for a wuss class like this. Or. The other choice is equally salient in my view: piss off.
Charmingly, Harlan Ellison. Author of the STORY "A Boy and His Dog' but NOT THE AUTHOR of the film "A Boy and His Dog," two different things, except to people who think they're entitled to their opinion, rather than being entitled to their INFORMED opinion.
Looks like Townshend has a reasonable alibi now.
CNN is reporting that he has saved email exchanged with an organization that fights child porn and they knew he was looking into it for research.
While I still have my doubts (why didn't he mention this before now?) it shows he at least took steps to secure a lifeline out of the abyss.
---
OH - AND GET THE "A BOY AND HIS DOG" DVD!!!!! It'll answer a lot of questions!
By george, I think Zoë's old prof is at it again.
---Peter
I just recently watched the film "A Boy and His Dog" and am interested to know why cannabalism was not running rampant in the post-halocaustic culture? If it was undertaken with such nonchalance by Don Johson in the movie, why wasn't it more prevalent throughout the film?
Diana wrote:
"I went back and looked at your site some more. It's very well put together. Well organized. I'd never heard of Flashman before.
Although I suspect there might be something a little hoax-y about it all, I still found it interesting. Creating this mysterious character who had all these adventures would be a good vehicle for exploring an era. So whether he was real, or not, I still enjoyed finding out about him. Besides, some people have had interesting lives and done amazing things, and yet never got to be famous, so who knows? He could have been a real guy. And you did a great job of designing the site. I liked the colors and the graphics too."
Thanks. You are actually _very_ close to realizing something here. But all I can say is that I did not create Flashman.
Look under "George MacDonald Fraser" at the local bookstore. (Or buy them through my website.) And, if you get a chance, watch Richard Lester's _Three Musketeers_ movies from the mid-1970s, and note the screenwriting credit.
From www.cantonrep.com. Producer Avi Arad on THE HULK movie:
"Usually a director like Lee, an intellectual, reacts to a story he can tell," Arad says. Once he understood that the Hulk represented metaphorical anger and rage, Arad says, "he loved the idea." Audiences should think of it as "an art film with amazing action and a big budget," he adds.
Oh yeah, you WISH, Avi!
HEY< ALEJANDRO RIERA:
"Humanoids Publishing will pick one fan to interview Alexandro Jodorowsky, the internationally acclaimed filmmaker and author of The Incal and The Metabarons comics.
To be considered, go to the discussion board at www.humanoids-publishing.com and post why you feel you deserve to interview Jodorowsky."
Figured this might interest you ...
BACK TO COMIC BOOK MOVIES: Did you guys notice that AMERICAN SPLENDOR, about cartoonist Harvey Pekar, won the Best Film prize at the Sundance Film Festival?
BRIAN: I've always seen Flashman as the literary brother to Laumer's Retief.
(Hey--both of those would be good candidates for the "fictional dinner companions" thread on the Pavilion ...)
Brian:
I went back and looked at your site some more. It's very well put together. Well organized. I'd never heard of Flashman before.
Although I suspect there might be something a little hoax-y about it all, I still found it interesting. Creating this mysterious character who had all these adventures would be a good vehicle for exploring an era. So whether he was real, or not, I still enjoyed finding out about him. Besides, some people have had interesting lives and done amazing things, and yet never got to be famous, so who knows? He could have been a real guy. And you did a great job of designing the site. I liked the colors and the graphics too.
I love photographs from that time, all black & white and kind of grainy and nostalgic looking. I'm especially fond of pictures of New York City from the Victorian Era.
Bye for now.
Diana
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
Although only ten percent of the population is left-handed, twenty percent of the members of MENSA are left-handed.
Diana
(no I'm not left-handed, my son is)
(plus he's part of the even rarer two percent of left-handed people where neither parent is left-handed)
(I just felt like sharing)
Fuggit. Y'all can check out my one attempt at a sestina on my web log. http://home.pacbell.net/posul
---Peter
Last thing about that pattern: I find it easiest to map it out first, so you know which words go where. And if that table isn't helping (each line being a stanza until the tercet, in which each line is a line) try and remember it this way. 1 to 6 to 3 to 5 to 4 to 2. Every line with a 2 will become a 1. Every line with a 6 will become a 3. Every line with a 5 will become a 4.
---Peter
Bermanator: Sestina...
Oh what a bastard of a form that be.
Nine times out of ten, any poetry market that does not accept sestinas has an editor who absolutely cannot write one to save his or her life.
Tips...
Choose your six words first. The best advice for word choice is to break it down like a story. Choose two words as your main plot, or image, choose two for a subplot or image, and choose two which can interchangably support the other four. Also, choose words whose meanings you can play with. Homonyms are okay, but homophones are cheating.
Take for example, the word "ride." You can use it in both the noun and verb meanings, also if using the verb form you can play with tenses. "Her ride" and "she rode" are both acceptable. However, "she rode" and "the road" are not acceptable.
Next, is to number the words for the first stanza. Decide which ones will come first, second, third, through sixth, because how you rearrange them is how the sestina is formed.
Now, the pattern is
123456
615243
364125
532614
451362
246531
And while there are a couple ways of finishing off, the one I'm most familiar with is a tercet (three line stanza) with the words appearing in the lines in the following order
12
34
56
Of course, Iambic Pentameter is the preferred meter for a sestina.
So there you have it, sestina in a nutshell. If you need more, feel free to email me. Plus I've actually completed one of those monsters, if you'd like a look-see.
---Peter
Brian,
Your Flashman site is wonderful! I was fascinated by the man's tale-- all the while recalling a certain deputy sheriff that we had here for a time. We called him Pecos Tom-- (as in Pecos Bill)
He had single handedly defeated a gang of the notorious Texas biker gang, the Bandidos in San Antonio. He'd been in knife fights with drug dealers and he'd been the darling of whores from one end of Texas to the other... never mind he was built like Homer Simpson and had the face of a Texas Aggie mascot-- which he WAS the model for ( no doubt). In my favorite of all his tales he "rode up on a mountain lion, horseback, and managed to lassoo him". My son's favorite Pecos Tom quote, " I killed that ol' turkey tom with my slingshot from 80, no more'd'n twenty yards."
Not that Flashman wasn't the real deal.. he just put me of a mind of Pecos Tom. Flashman's memory sounded like that of an 80 something year old person.. they tend to get things mixed up at times. My own grandmother ( yes, you all have heard aaaalll about her) she's going to be 101 in March. She lives by herself on her farm. I saw her not too long ago and she would look at me and say, " You sure look like Cindy." And I'd smile and say, " Well, there's a REASON for that, Tabby-- I AM Cindy!" And she laughed and patted my leg and said, " I must be gettin' like my old Uncle Herm-- when he got up around 90 he'd make a mistake and say, " I must be slippin'". A little bit later she'd look at me and say, " You sure look like Cindy." And I'd laugh and explain again that there was a reason for that similarity.
Still she remembers things that happened when she was four years old with absolute clairity. She won't tell stories about the past unless she is asked something specific.. but in those cases she can tell you things that went on in rural Texas-- as she lived it, from about 1906 on. During the depression government men came in and slaughtered everyone's cattle and buried them... except for the milk cow which they allowed them to keep. I learned later that some believed it was done to drive up the price of cattle by limiting the supply- but I don't know if that was a fact.
The thing about your Flashman is he could have been telling mostly the truth as it happened mixed in with some of the truth as he remembered it. Did you see that recent program-- I think it was on the discovery channel-- where scientists set out to determine the veracity of certain pages of a diary written by a man from Mexico who was allegedly at the Alamo? I bet the science is there to prove or disprove alot of the Flashman saga. If you'd really want to know. I don't know though.. in some ways it's sort of fun to imagine Homer Simpson fighting Bandidos with a knife.
I really did enjoy your site. It's lovely to look at and the writing is fine as frog hair.
:)
Cindy
Hey Diana,
Thanks for the information! I might have to try my hand at website construction too.
:)
Cindy
Damn you, Bermanator. I have never truly worked the Shakespearean sonnet out of my system, and you reveal to me the sestina?!
Shit.
Cursed by language, I remain faithfully yours,
elldot
To Harlan Ellison
P.P.S. If you find the time, I found Pirates of Darkwater at TV Tome, but neither you or Paul Williams has been credited for your voice work for any of the episodes. If you ever find the time and feel so inclined and you can tell me what episodes you and Paul played what characters in I can go and add this information to TV Tome's Pirates of Darkwater files. I'd especially like to be able to add the credits to Mr Williams information at that site since I'm his Person Editor there.
Bye for now.
Diana
Anyone here ever written a sestina? I just read Elizabeth Bishop's and was very impressed. I want to try to write one, but am daunted. Any tips?
Brian~ Reminds me of Prokofiev's Lt. Kije, an officer whose meteoric rise and subsequent demise were all due to a misunderstanding by the Czar (and his officers unwillingness to correct him).
L.
To Diana, who wrote:
"I went to see your site. I was a little leery at first, as it was called "FLASH" man, but it turned out to be okay. Is he a real historic figure or did you invent him?"
This question has come up often enough for me to have written a page devoted to it, i.e., are the Flashman Papers genuine, or just a cunning fake. The page is available at
http://www.briansiano.com/flashman/HTML%20Files/Are%20They%20Genuine.htm
I cannot claim to have settled the controversy, but I can honestly state that I did not invent Flashman.
Hey Brian.
I went to see your site. I was a little leery at first, as it was called "FLASH" man, but it turned out to be okay. Is he a real historic figure or did you invent him?
I didn't have time just then to look into things much. I can't find my bank card and until I do I'm going to be a crazy person. My house has been getting cleaner and cleaner as I search, though so that part's good. I do the same thing when I'm second hand shopping. I just sort & fold as I dig. That way I don't miss looking at anything. And this practice has the added benefit of causing the nice volunteer ladies to beam at me fondly now when they see me.
That's me. Making the world a more well organized place. A better place. A nicely sorted and color coordinated place.
I'll look at more stuff at your site once I find my card.
Bye for now.
Diana
I strongly recommend buying, renting the DVD version of the film which features a commentary track by director LQ Jones. In it, you will find the secrets of the universe. Check out amazon.com for details.
Should you be looking more into the meaning behind the original work, I strongly suggest reading the story...or at least listening to Ellison read it on tape if words hurt your head.
Oh, Diana, here's a website I developed for one of my fan interests:
http://www.briansiano.com/flashman
Hope ya like.
To Mr. Ellison (again)
P.S. (Just in case it wasn't clear from any of my last posts to about this) I appreciate your taking the time to bother yourself with my project to the extent you have. There's really no reason you should. There's really no reason *I* should, actually. I took it upon myself to begin with. For the hell of it. But since I am doing it, I figure I might as well do a decent job of it. It's not really very important in the larger scheme of things, though. So, thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I know you're damned busy with your own life. It's very nice of you to trouble yourself with (what has become) part of mine. :=)
Bye for now.
Diana
Harlan Ellison wrote(among other things):
"HARLAN ELLISON
- Wednesday, January 29 2003 9:2:5
DIANA:
PIRATES OF DARK WATER had nothing to do with Sweden save as, likely, a foreign rebroadcast under syndication of the AMERICAN animated series. I have no idea what "sources" you consulted, but I suspect they were internet. Most of those sites are bullshit. Incomplete, inaccurate, misleading. Go to a book of reference on tv network shows, animated or otherwise, and you'll find all you need to know about PIRATES, on which I worked with Tim Currey, Frank Welker, and Paul.
Go back to books, dearie. The web lies and misleads.
Staunchly, Harlan Ellison"
If anyone has any book titles to suggest that cover anything even slightly related to the above subject, their input would be appreciated by me.
To Harlan Ellison:
Yes, my source for the information was the internet, and what information there was was pathetic. At best. I'd like to know the name of the character(s) Paul Williams did the voice work for on that program, by the way, speaking of a lack of accurate information.
Maybe someone with time on their hands and a mind near festering with boredom (me) could consider remedying the above mentioned, "Incomplete, inaccurate, misleading" condition on the internet, just a little. I need something to do. And I'm only using about 12 percent of the space I'm paying for at Homestead at the moment, and half of that is being used for nonsense pages I made up because I was bored (and I like playing with fonts)
Of course if I could get someone to pay me for such an effort, all the better, but I'll probably do it anyway. (Who would pay me for such an effort? I want to know. I'm really, really tired of being poor now. Really, really, really tired)
Diana
Diana (and for the curious):
"Pirates of Dark Water" can currently be found on Cartoon Network. Admittedly, it airs at 4 am EST on Sunday mornings... but it's there.
And has anyone used Cartoon Network's schedule on the web? They identify not just the show that's airing, but the episode as well; for shows with multiple shorts (the Chuck Jones Show, for example), they name all the shorts contained in the segment.
(It's so easy to push my geek buttons these days... but catching "Ali Baba Bunny" again just got a WHOLE lot easier...)
DIANA:
PIRATES OF DARK WATER had nothing to do with Sweden save as, likely, a foreign rebroadcast under syndication of the AMERICAN animated series. I have no idea what "sources" you consulted, but I suspect they were internet. Most of those sites are bullshit. Incomplete, inaccurate, misleading. Go to a book of reference on tv network shows, animated or otherwise, and you'll find all you need to know about PIRATES, on which I worked with Tim Currey, Frank Welker, and Paul.
Go back to books, dearie. The web lies and misleads.
Staunchly, Harlan Ellison
Stop me if you've heard this one...
A writer, upon his unseemly demise as a result of a cheese grating accident, takes his place at the Pearly Gates, finding himself in deep discussion with St. Peter concerning his eternal fate. Finally convincing the saint of his worth, he is ultimately granted entrance into heaven. Then, as he is passing through, he wonders about the alternative, and asks Peter if there is some way he can determine what awaited him in Hades, had the Almighty refused him entry.
Peter curses mildly under his breath, then sets about the bureaucratic task to get the proper documentation for a sojourn into hell, or as we mortals call it, marriage.
The task is finally complete, after three weeks of paper chasing with demons, and the writer accompanies St. Peter into peridition. They descend deep into Hell's bowels, avoiding many horrific movements, finally arriving upon the special place in purgatory reserved for the writer. The scribe looks upon rows after rows of tables; poor harried souls chained to benches, typing madly as magma is poured into their throats and continuously beaten with barbed whips as they are forced to create copy for sanitary napkin ads. It takes precious little time for the writer to cry "Enough! Take me from this, I can't stand any more!"
Peter sighs, then sets to the task of the paperwork necessary for the return trip. "Another three weeks in Limbo..." he mutters.
So they are eventually returned to heaven, the writer whistles cheerfully at his anticipated destiny, jovially strolling towards the writer's residence in the Great Beyond. He thinks of meeting Twain, Heller, Plato, Fitzgerald, Wells, all of those he'd so loved and admired. At that moment two angels roughly collect him, and he suddenly finds himself shackled to a bench, typing madly besides row after row of writers, having molten gold poured down his throat as he is flogged mercilessly by angels. All the while, he is forced to create Hallmark greeting card poems, and copy for tracts handed out by Jehovah's Witnesses.
He takes an opportune moment between pourings to cry to an angelic overseer, "Hold it, I thought this was heaven!".
"It is", the angel smiles; "Here you get published, and paid!"
BOS
These are my two favorite NYC links:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/index.html
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned
Diana
chris pickar: You may want to go to the Webderland forums archive and look at the archives for last January or thereabouts. Poke around a bit in the forum archives running 'Find' searches for 'boy and his dog'--it'll at least give you an idea of the questions people from your class have asked before, along with some of the responses from people on the board.
Jon
Sorry I haven't been around to weigh in on all the recent topics, but I've been working on PR for my book. My first radio interview is coming up in three hours, with Rean Cross on her show "Sex City," out of CIUT 89.5 Toronto. Any of you who are interested and have access to sound through the Web can check it out when it airs live at 2:30 p.m. Eastern, at
http://www.ciut.fm/schedule.html
Joseph,
Check out the Blue Fin while there in NYC. Specifically, sit in the bar area where it's a glass wall so you can watch the bustle of Times Square. It's a sushi place and a bit expensive (which is why I stayed on a strictly liquid diet while there), but if you've got time before a show or just want to hang out and watch the tourists and the office workers, there's worse ways to kill time. You have to get there a bit early (before 6:00pm) so you can get a prime spot by the window, but, hey, it's almost as good as a sidewalk cafe.
MMmm.......Spanakopita!
Thanks for the great suggestions from yesterday, folks! Sorry I'm reading them a little later, but one of my cats decided it would be an adventure to eat seven feet of bootlace. Yes, seven feet. He's ookay now, but we had to go to the emergency vet last night, where they were able to induce vomiting (with a hydrogen peroxide mixture, of all things). If you're a curious cuss, take a look at the x-ray:
http://tinyurl.com/51mr
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Yes, cats can be real dumbasses, can't they?
> And this place that sells those greeks thingies, made with feta cheese and spinach and fila dough, and what the hell do you call those things?
Spanakopita. "Spinach pie" to you goyim.
Here's a good online guide to the City: http://newyork.citysearch.com/?brand=sidewalk
Gray's Papaya (37th and 8th) has the best hot dogs, at the cheapest prices.
Virgil's BBQ (43rd, btw 6th and 7th) is a lush oasis for carnivores who like-a the spice. Ask if they have the macaroni & cheese.
Rungsit II Thai Food (34th, btw 2nd and 3rd) is a tasty retreat on the east side. Try the duck salad.
Mitch
DIANA: Kinison? Not bad. But no, child; seek out Bill Hicks. TRUST me.
(Or, for the cleaner side of comedy, Lord Richard Buckley.)
To Brian Siano,
Thanks Brian. That tune from The Good, The Bad & The Ugly was his work? I wonder if there were words too. Othewise he's more of a composer than a songwriter.
Diana
Jay,
He didn't say it was a literature class, he said it was a science fiction class, "cultural studies". Certainly science fiction movies and/or movies in general would qualify as a part of our culture worth studying.
Diana
Is it me, or does anyone else find it wrong, stupid and/or ridiculous to be teaching a literature class and requiring the FILM ADAPTATION to be the focus of the discussion?
SOmehow feeling we've had this discussion before, some semester back in time.
Frank (And Etc...)
One name...
SAM KINISON!!!!!!!!!!
Diana
ALL: by the way, if you ARE interested, and you plan to send money, just email me at the above address to make sure I still have a set or two left.
--DTS
ALL: Through means I'm not at liberty to divulge, I have come into ownership of eight (count 'em, 8!) sets of "Harlan Ellison's Dream Corridor," including the "Dream Corridor Special" which kicked off the series, and issues one through 5. What makes these different from the collected, tradepaperback "anthology" (Harlan Ellison's Dream Corridor Vol. One) is that John Byrne's adaptation of "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" runs from the "Special" to issue number 4. Before taking them to a local book dealer or someone else (and trying to squeeze some real money out of them), I thought I'd offer the comics for sale to you guys: $25 a set, plus $2 for postage/insurance. If anyone's interested, send checks and money orders to:
D.T Shindler
P.O. Box 9398
Kansas City, MO 64133
Thanks,
DTS
(I would've put all of this in the "store" dept., but since I've gotta get the "library" weeded and cleaned out by next week, I didn't want you guys to miss out on a pretty good deal).
Diana, Ennio Morricone is best known for his work as a film music composer, especially for his soundtracks for such Sergio Leone westerns as _The Good, the Bad and the Ugly_.
Joseph, the subway will place you right at Yankee Stadium. It's elevated.....so you walks on down and you is there.
Don't buy your tickets at the window. Walk around the various parking lots and find yourself a scalper pushing some season ticket holder's leftovers. You can get much better seats than will be available the day of the game, and if you bargain the eentsy beentsiest bit, you can get them for a buck or two below ticket price if you are there for a non-event (Bosox) non-toy-giveaway non-weekend game.
My friends and I would always got to games on Tuesday and Wednesday nights and get the best seats available for the lowest cost by finding our favorite, lovable parking lot felons.
-TODD
Regarding "A Boy & His Dog"
What CHRIS L. said
Diana
(P.S. I LOVE that ending)
Hi Frank...I will look into Ennio Morricone. Do you have any recommendations as to which of his songs to listen to first? Does he do his own stuff? If other people have done good renditions of his music, who?
Diana
BOOK STORES IN NYC(and stuff)
I haven't actually lived in NYC since 1986, but there was a used bookstore that I worked in in the "Tribeca" area called Ruby's Book Sale. I looked it up on the internet just now and the address is listed as:
Ruby's Book Sale
119 Chambers Street
Tel: (212) 732-8676
So I guess they're still in business. But that may be the main store which isn't a used book store, but if it is they can tell you where the used book "annex" is.(I know it's down the street from 111 Chambers Street, where my sister used to live with...get this Bobby (Boris) Pickett!) (Don't you know who Bobby (Boris) Pickett is?)(The Guy Lombardo of Halloween?) (of (that Spooky Day cult classic!") The Monster Mash fame?) (He lives on the West Coast now) (Venice, CA) Anyway they sell used books at Ruby's, & back issue of many odd magazines and who knows-what-you'll-find type stuff. That place on Broadway & 12th is cool too, by the way. Only someone already mentioned it.
As far as lodgings, it's a shame you don't know someone who could put you up for the few weeks you'll be there. You could pay them instead, about half what'd cost you at a hotel. They could show y'all the "real" NYC. Like all these tiny hidden cemetaries I know about in the most unlikely places. And this place that sells those greeks thingies, made with feta cheese and spinach and fila dough, and what the hell do you call those things? Anyway I know where you can get some cheap but good. (right around the corner from Ruby's) Or I used to. Or like THE best Indian food restaurant. Or where you can get amazing clam chowder. Or provolone and proscuitto grilled cheese sandwiches, and espresso at 3AM. Or where you can go see old films like a comedy with Irene Dunn, & Cary Grant, and sit down in a theater and watch them on a full screen, uninterupted by commericials, like they were meant to be seen, so you can find out WHY these people were the major stars they were in their day.
Is it obvious I'm homesick?
Bye for now.
Diana
Used bookstores in Manhattan....?
The monster pops to mind first: The Strand, on Broadway and 12th, I think. Huge, almost all hardcover and trade paperback, not cheap but a very broad selection of non fiction. Not the easiest place to locate stuff--for example, they don't have a Biography section---but the staff knows where the best stuff is buried. They are also locally famous for selling reviewer's copies of recent stuff, typically for half price. Gets very crowded at certain times, but it's worth a look-see, especially if you're into art books.
There are a few smaller ones about a ten minute walk away, around the old Barnes and Noble Main store on 5th and 18th or 20th.
There is at least one, and possibly a second, mystery specialty store in the midtown area, and a military book store on the east side in the 90s. Used and new stuff at both, if memory serves me correctly. Other than Forbidden Planet, which isn't doing much with books any more, I don't know if there are any SF specialty book stores left.
There's a huge B&N on the north end of Union square (figure 18th street--parts of Manhattan are very easy to figure out)and a sprinkling of used bookstores on the east and west side. If you're into it, Hanley's is the best comic book store I've seen. It's also in midtown, and within another ten minutes is Midtown Comics (40th and 7th, I think) which is also very good. There's also some fun Japanese language bookstores(amazing magazines) and foreign places, plus some great magazine stores and the odd specialty places, like for cookbooks, maps, stuff like that, too.
Floating around is a FAQ with bookstore addresses. Last time I looked it was a little out of date for the area, but generally pretty good. Evelyn Leeper comes to mind as the author.
It's just my opinion, but Manhattan doesn't have as many good used places as you'd think for a publishing mecca. I've heard that Avenue Victor Hugo just closed, but I thought at the time that Boston and the surrounding area was even better than NYC for book lovers...
Joseph: there's a decent Travelodge just off Times Square. I've been housed there on college trips and it's inexpensive and clean. Could probably look them up on the Net.
If you're in town on a Monday night, I suggest going to hear the Village Vanguard Orchestra (at the Village Vanguard, of course). They play every Monday (starting time is around 9 I think. They play two sets). Costs about 25 bucks (two-drink minimum; drink tix come with admission) and the band sounds FINE!
Have fun!
John G.,
Thanks for the many suggestions! Steps are not an issue, really (hell, I'm a Chicagoan with no car - walking and the L is my life).
Matthew,
Thanks as well for your suggestion, but somehow I can't use a hostel. I'm 30 in May, and at that point I feel I'm doing well enough that I can spend a little more for a real hotel room. The Best Western is a damn good idea, though; we used them in both London and Dublin in 2000, and they were good utilitarian hotels.
Now. Can anyone suggest any good used bookstores in Manhattan?
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
Depending upon the level of comfort and lack of expense you’re aiming for you might want to consider having a look maybe at hostels in NYC. When I was looking last summer I noticed that several offered separate double rooms for couples – rates were usually about $50-70 I think. Some are in quite gentrified areas, or touristy/arts spots like Chelsea, and offer near hotel-level service (breakfast, towels, etc).
Joseph, if you see Rudy Guiliani, kick him in the ass for me. Regards. :-)
Diana, one name: Ennio Morricone.
-----------
Who the fuck said "Sci-Fi"? Get out the boiling oil and the tarring brush. Bring the gonad hammer and the needle nose pliers. Hot glue gun prostate pixilator at stun.
-------------
Cindy, welcome back to the land of the hearing. Avoid heavy metal and mosh pits--for now, at least--I know how much you adore such fare. Be good.
--------------
Diana, doubtful that having a million dollars adds to someones importance. Rush Limbaugh is a millionaire for Christs sake. And remember they gave Elton John an Oscar--the 90's Elton, not the great 70's Elton.
Joseph,
You can take a subway right to Shea and or Yankee stadium. Both require short walks from the stops and if I recall correctly some stairs, if that's a consideration.
What to see in New York City? That's a tough one to narrow down: if you're into live theater, of course there's Broadway, Off-Broadway, and tons of other stuff. Ditto for live music--lots of clubs and such.
The Empire State Building is always fun, even though it's been pretty crowded lately. Gives the best view of Manhattan and is a real experience. Always recommended.
There's the Statue of Liberty, the revitalized 42nd street, famed in song and story, Central Park, lots of fairly cool architecture, the USS Intrepid Air/Space Museum, the Public Library, and lots of good museums, starting with the Metropolitan. Then jaunt across Central Park to the Museum of Natural History, or a nice walk up town to the Guggenheim, or south the the Museum of Modern Art. (The Met alone could eat up the better part of a day)
A good general guide to weekly cultural goings-on is the Village Voice. It's free and I'd be happy to send out a copy.
Hotels are a big more problematic in that it's getting pretty hard to find cheap decent accomodations in midtown. (With a few exceptions, like the ballparks and the Statue, most of what I just listed is "midtown", kinda, well within walking distance). I'd suggest trying some of the Best Western properties--don't quote me but I think one is on 45th and the other 53rd and Broadway--that were pretty good deals for the location. I've paid under $100 a night for them after 9/11, but I'm sure it's more now. There's every type of chain hotel in the area, but most of them are probably in the $150/night range, and some a lot, lot more. In the last ten years or so New York City has become even more of a destination than in the past, so it's crowded and a little too Disney-fied. But you'll always find something unique--I haven't even mentioned Greenwich Village, Chinatown, or anything outside Manhattan.
There's tons of things left, but these are some of the usual destinations. I hesitate to mention it because it really creeps me out, but unfortunately *the* destination in Manhattan these days is the old WTC site. All it is, now, is a big open pit with some walkways around it, but it's mobbed. It's about ten minutes from where you go to take the boat to Liberty and Ellis islands.
Hope this helps.
Please read "subway is" as "subway wise." Thank you.
All,
A small request, if you please. My wife and I are plannign to go to Manhattan this late spring/early summer for the first time, and I'm curious to know what any of you world travellers or inhabitants of the area might consider interesting/essential to see there. Thanks very kindly!
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Any nice cheap hotel accomodations you can recommend would be quite appreciated as well.
P.P.S. How involved, subway is, is it to get to Shea or Yankee stadium?
**many of my classmates noted that this portrayal of women wrong, and i agree with them on this. **
I'll set aside the issue of whether the film is being mis-read and take at face value the "sexist" depiction of women. But, young man, what you gotta understand is that a writer (particularly a good one) does not impose himself and his world views on every character and on every story. Ellison has another story in which a character shoots a man and "sprays nigger meat" all over. Does that make it a racist story?
A writer's job sometimes is to get inside the head of his characters, to present the world to the reader by way of the perceptual filters of his characters. Thus when Ellison writes a story in which Jack the Ripper is a character, you're going to hear a whole lot of hatred directed at women.
Noting that "this portrayal of women is wrong" is just a nonsense statement. It's completely right if that's what the story is about - if that's how the characters think and feel. It might just mean the writer had done a damn fine job in portraying the fictional world he wished to portray.
Don't confuse the writing with the writer. Don't assume the fictional world must or even should represent the "real" world.
Chris Pickar:
"A Boy and his Dog" is a problematic Ellison work. I haven't seen the movie, and from what I've heard I don't want to, but I personally found the story difficult to love. I would recommend to you and your class that you find other Ellison to read...the short stories written in the late 60s/early 70s would be a great place to look.
Post-nuclear apocalypse fiction is practically its own genre, and some of the best stuff (A Canticle for Liebowitz, On the Beach, the first Planet of the Apes film) is still holding up. I don't think that A Boy and his Dog is a hallmark of that period, either as book or film, and I'm surprised your instructor choose the film. Maybe it's one of those lazy classes where if there isn't a movie of the book, the book doesn't get read. Certainly there are scads of better sci-fi movies out there to spend class time watching.
Then there is the issue of "sexism." It's a hot one, and many on this board, including Ellison himself, have written long expositions on how the story is being mis-read, and how the film is a departure from the themes of the book. But despite that, both the story and the film carry with them that stigma, so I would argue that in this instance there has been a failure to communicate on the part of the artists.
Crack into Deathbird Stories instead. You won't regret it.
Undergraduate degree:
Bachelor in labour relations: MBA as my major.
And I become a rink manager. Go figure.
Brian: You neglected William Safire, writing about how the Neutral Zone impinges on the manifest destiny of laissez-faire capitalism and the needed democratic expansion of the Federation, alongside Pat Buchanan's suggestion that the Tholians are "Soviet Vulcanistan", not pulling their weight in funding Starfleet military expansion to respond to the Klingon "evil empire"...
Of course, we won't touch Ann Coulter's suggestion that the Orion traders should create a cloned candidate for Federation President, fusing native Orion DNA to that of dead US president Reagan, in order to promote a anti-taxation platform for the next election...
BOS
Chris Pickar: "A Boy and His Dog" the movie is the creation of actor/director L.Q. Jones, and based on a story by Harlan Ellison. The two are distinctly different in tone and exposition. Before you query this board, please go find a copy of Ellison's text and read it. You may find it in "The Essential Ellison" published by Morpheus Press, which can be ordered through this site. There is also "Vic and Blood: The Chronicles of a Boy and His Dog" that is out-of-print, but available through this site. Click on resources/store and then on Webderland Store HERC link. Read Harlan Ellison, so you may approach the Hollywood byproduct with an informed opinion.
As a requirement for sci fi class at my college, we were required to view "a boy and his dog." sci fi class falls under the cultural studies program and i have some pretty outspoken classmates. So many people bashed this movie for being sexist, objectifying women, etc... i'm sure that most people picked up on these themes when they watched the movie as well, how could you not. my point all along is that ellison paints a pretty bleak picture of a world after a nuclear war. he doesn't come right out and say "women are pieces of shit," like many of my classmates claimed. vic's character does this for him. and the way ellison portrays vic in this film is far from flattering. by portraying vic in this light, the viewer is able to see from the very opening scenes that vic is more of the animal than blood. many of my classmates noted that this portrayal of women wrong, and i agree with them on this. Duh, we (classmates and myself) live in a free nation and know what is right and wrong because we have been taught these things. but it's not as though ellison portrayed the men in this film in a better light. look at vic for evidence of this. vic's outlandish and animal behavior made everyone take notice and say "whoa, something is not right here, this guy is an idiot." i was probably the only one who thought this movie was good, besides the instructor. film is a piece of art. although you may not agree with some subject matter, it certainly does get a rise out of you. who would want to live in a world like this? I wondered why there were no roving bands of women in this film. this seems like a better alternative to living underground, and there is strength in numbers.
To Alex: You know, the "Job Recommendation Letters" book idea sounds, well, fairly tempting. However, I don't know how well the gag can sustain itself. Might be worth collaborating on...
Take the "Death Row Records" example. In such a book, one would certainly want the letter to appear on something like letterhead-- and having "Death Row Records" at the top would kill the sting of the joke when you read the signature at the end. (Having a prison censor's stamp nearby's a fun idea.)
So what other Letters of Recommendation could there be? How about one for James Boswell, written by Samuel Johnson?
By the way, this reminds me of an odd idea I had for a Star Trek book-- but it'd _never_ sell, because the humor'd go right past the Trekkies. The idea is that, due to some time-matrix-unfuldibuliform refolding accident that occurred when Wesley made twelve-dimensional hypertoast for breakfast, the 24th century momentarily impinged upon the late 20th. While the timelines were eventually resorted out, several artifacts from that rewoven time were recovered by the Federation.
The "artifacts" were, basically, news and commentary accounts of _Star Trek_ stuff written in the manner of 20th century news media. So, we'd see Emmett Tyrell of the _American Spectator_ on those snooty, stuck-up, peacenik Vulcans. Alexander Cockburn might spent a column on James Kirk's depradations in _The Nation_, while Katha Pollitt discusses the beauty crystals Harry Mudd used. William Bennett would call upon the Federation to become more disciplined, more authoritarian, and spend more money on building moral character... because the Klingons were doing so, and they threatened our daily existence, so we have to out-Sparta them.
Meanwhile, Camille Paglia rhapsodizes oner the Klingon rough-boy leather style, while denouncing the Romulans as neurasthenics. A newsletter from PETA would denounce the barbaric and cruel practice of neutering Tribbles. Maybe there'd be a storyboard for an anti-drug spot, illustrating what happens to the people you love when you use the Replicators to make handfuls of Columbian blow. Perhaps a show called "Solved Mysteries," where they use the Guardian of Forever to find out who killed Kennedy and who Jack the Ripper was, while George Will and John McLaughlin demand to know why we don't simply use it to wipe out the entire existence of our enemies.
It's a fun idea, but it's got lots of problems. For one thing, Paramount'd never let it see the light of day; they only allow certain kinds of humor, and this ain't what they like. For another, how many Trek fans are aware of what writers would be parodied?
Anyway, the Trek TV shows are pretty much off the air, so it's kind of a dead subject. Might be fun to do as a _samizdat_ publication.
I don't know about that, Bern - your Kabuki always wowed them in the dining hall...
CEP - They should put up a image page where the the pirate used to exist, showing a pirate flag sliding under the waves, with a simple message: "Pirate my stuff, and this'll be YOU - Yr. Wrst Nghtmr, Harlan and his trusty sidekick, CEP". Good Job!
Diana - congrats on the award(s) - you should update your songlist to include the Muppet movies - and did you see the Superbowl Ad for HotJobs that featured "The Rainbow Connection"?
Cindy - Ow, ow, ow, owwww. Please get better soon, y'hear? (I know, bad pun - but I couldn't help it.)
FAQ - "Why do you write?" - 'cause I can't paint, sculpt, draw, whittle, sing, play instruments or do those darned shadow puppet things worth a damn.
Brian - Funniest damn thing I've read in a while.
Bermanator - Glad to see you back.
All - regarding Heather. I think she's packed up her things and gone home. She was always somewhat disappointed with the lot of us - and for a while she only posted in the Pavillion. And the last time she had done that, her mother had just died, and she wanted Harlan to read and comment on something she wrote in her webspace. Haven't heard from her here since then.
That's it for now,
Bern
P.A.:
Somewhere on the site, there's a .pdf membership form for I-Con to print out. Hotel rates I got straight from the latest HERC Rabbit Hole: $124.00. Realization of the costs effectively put the notion of me going out the window. I hope the rest of you enjoy, though, and come back with some great, detailed stories.
Bill
PAB: I don't have their flyer in front of me, but I recall that the membership fee for I-Con is $35 if purchased before March 15. The only option is by mail, unless you can get to a number of retail outlets on Long Island, and they do *not* take credit cards at the door. Daily memberships are available, but IIRC Saturday was like $33, so buying ahead makes sense.
If no one else has the info at hand I'll dig up the flyer and post the address later today. I also have some hotel info if anyone needs it.
The website has an info email at membership@iconsf.org, too.
HARLAN AND SUSAN: The package arrived today. A million thanks.
(In the interest of preserving the dying art of correspondence, a thank-you note was written and mailed you immediately upon receipt.)
CHARLIE: VERY nice. May you sink many more in the service of His Majesty.
BRIAN: You know, a compendium of such "recommendations" ("Stationary of the Rich and Famous"?) could be easily made into a small yet profitable novelty book. At very least, it would be fun writing it. Go for it.
Re: The Incredible Lightness of Being Philip Jose Farmer...
"Well, yes, there are the Riverworld novels [with Twain and Sir Richard Burton and they have their moments to be sure] BUT there are also any number of novels with sex with aliens and WEIRD sex in general and guys dueling with their penises and carniverous beasts hiding in vaginas. Does this help explain your result? No? But now your really curious, right?"
OK...ewwwhhh.
Something is clearly wrong with the skiffy quiz.
Frankly, I was more comfortable back on the riverboat with the dead guys.
Cindy -
You're expected to get your hearing back, right?
First of all, I'm Kurt Vonnegut, and personally, I'm thrilled. I know, a day late and a buck short on the Skiffy Writers Quiz, but just thought I'd share the love.
Jim: I-Con? I checked out the website, and maybe I just didn't give it enough time, but I couldn't figure out how to sign up and how much it cost. I should consider this, as when will I ever get a chance to meet Mr. Ellison on the Right Coast? Hmmm, who else is going from here? Anyone else LARP?
So James (can I call you James? Thanks), I had to dig through scads of posts to find yours, and got sidetracked into a quiz, etc. You have to tell me what your undergrad degree would have been in. I imagine you could get into a program where you could get certified and get your bachelor's simultaneously, then go on and get Masters later if you like. What subject are you planning on teaching? Here's a link re: Florida's requirements for you:
http://www.firn.edu/doe/bin00022/home0022.htm
Hey, getting started on the career late isn't the worst thing. I got a Bachelor's degree in Industrial & Labor Relations (!!! indeed) thinking I wanted to be a lawyer... but then I realized I didn't want to go to law school after 4 years of Cornell. I drifted about for 7 years, working crap jobs for no money, then went back for the MA due to lack of anything better to do (at SUNY Binghamton by way of Southern California--long story, and not interesting). Realizing this degree was worth not much more than the paper on which it was printed, I got the MAT and now am teaching. I could complain about how much I hate Binghamton and how I have no life here whatsoever, but that would be boring. It sure is.
Someone *SHOULD* start the Webderland LonelyHearts board...
PAB
PS--Whatever happened to Heather?
To Mr. Ellison:
I'd be glad to convey your message to Paul Williams if I could, but I've never meet him. I don't think he even knows that my site (or I) exist. (Maybe _you_ could tell him _I_ say hi, if you ever see him)
I will put your message to him somewhere on the site, though. Maybe one of these days he'll stumble across it and be pleasantly surprised. If you ever feel like signing my guestbook, of course, you'd at least make *me* very happy anyway.
It would impress the hell out a few people too, that's for sure.
Thanks for that information on Pirates of Dark Waters. I'd never heard of that program. I just went and added it to his voice-over credits a little while ago. I found a somewhat pathetic link to some reference to it, which I also added, in case I wasn't the only person unfamiliar with it. It looks like it was on television in Sweden, which may explain why I didn't know about it.
If you ever found the time to share any Paul Williams anecdote's with me (I'm sure I could find a way to use them on my site) I'd be grateful. But I know you're a very busy personage in your own right, so I'll understand if you can't do that. But I thought I'd ask, just in case.
Bye for now.
Diana
Williams a HACK?! He was referring to Williams Doppelganger Warren Zevon. Who has also won awards and is, sometimes, a very nice man as well.
1974 - High Times "Man of Tomorrow" Award
1975 - Fastest Quarter Mile Run While Being Pursued by Hunter Thompson's Attack Dogs in Woody Creek
1977 - "Drink Your Weight in Tequila" Award (O'Hoolihan's Tavern, Boston)
1978 Longest Bender in British History Award
(Guinness, six months edging out Keith Moon by three days)
1998 Most Repeated Song by the Original Artist Who Did Not Go Mad as a Result. (Werewolves of London, Dirk's Dirt Hut #234,878
CHUCK,
Yeah, I'm back. I missed you.
:)
The ear FEELS better-- actually BOTH of 'em feel better. The left one ruptured the day after the right one. Problem is each day I hear a little less than the day before. Today I realized the futility of attending district court-- I couldn't understand a word. Instead I'm reduced to court documents and the minutes from county and municipal meetings. EMAIL is a great source for news when you can't use the phone very well. It sucks because I feel like a genie trapped in a bottle. The good news is I can still hear my own voice in my head so the broadcasts continue. As long as I can do the news and SOUND the same my boss doesn't have a problem. I keep hoping that tomorrow things will be a little better rather than a shade worse.
On the bright side I can't hear my kids when they fight and I'm no longer bothered by a ringing phone.
:)
Cindy
Hi Cindy.
Thanks for your kindly remarks about the web site. If you're interested in creating one of your own and you don't know html I can recommend you look into getting a Homestead account. They have what's called a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) Drag & Drop program. You can try things out for free for thirty days, and then their accounts start at as little as under $7.00 a month. Plus they have *really* great customer and tech support departments. If there's anything you can't figure out for yourself, whenever you send in a question, a real live, well informed helpful person WILL get back to you. Quickly. They have so much other help available too, I couldn't begin to tell you about it all in here. Do I sound like a TV commercial? Sorry.
Anyway, as for the design aspects, I just read lots and lots and lots of tutorials from the internet. I looked at other people's sites, good & bad. I learned about html, and image editors from other tutorials. And I learned how to convert stuff from my tapes and CD's into MP3's, and then into wavs, and then into COMPRESSED wavs, from yet more tutorials (I don't even have music on that site now, but it's useful knowledge and could come in handy for some other projest) There are sites where you can (I did) go ask for critiques of your site, if you get along to where you want to win web site awards. That was something I found very very helpful. There are places you can do free research on figuring out what are going to be your best meta-tags, which is what you need if you want to have a high rating on search engines. (that's really more important for a business site)Basically that's how I learned stuff. I just looked on the internet for information and tried to follow it. Trust me it's not so hard, as long as you can read. I started out not knowing even so much as what someone meant by "right click" a year & a half ago.
It's really FUN too. You can put whatever you want on your web site. It's yours. I've seen some amazingly cool & creative stuff out there. When I get my "me" site to where I don't mind having people see it you can go check out some of my links, and see for yourself. You'll see what I mean.
Diana
P.S. I'm glad you're not mad
Why write? Because if you don't, the real world and the fantasy world begin to merge. Or am I just insane?
www.ideomancer.com...the Flash Fiction section. It's not much, but others have given links before, so why not?
Bill
Alex Jay,
"(Yes, I want the IRS to give me a gun. Give in to your fear now. Avoid the rush.)"
Of course, they'll only give you one bullet, which you'll have to keep in your shirt pocket. And, if you mishandle the gun once, you'll hear someone say, "Gimme the gun, Barney".
Hey, Cindy!
Nice to see you're back and full o' pee and vinegar. I assume your ear feels much better.
Chuck
Alex Jay -
We'll be holding auditions in the Philly area...possibly Newark Delaware or As far west as Plymouth Meeting...in early March.
More model bodies in Philly anyway. Right now, it's fill-the-tights time. Acting isn't as important as filling the costume.
CEP,
Good deal. And, what Bill said.
Faisal,
The answer? Because you have to. Others cursed with that affliction can avow that they have no choice in the matter. Good or bad, you must write. I thought that was apparent from your postings on this forum and your short screenplay (good, by the way, not bad). It's a stupid question, really. Why do you breathe? Why do you do something that puts you at risk of ridicule or worse? Why do you rip your heart out and show it to those that may not care or may not understand? Why do you hope to connect with words to someone you don't even know? Why do these things knowing you probably won't be wealthy or famous or somewhat known? You know the answer. Why do you breathe?
(And for a much better anecdote concerning why writers write, see the introduction to Prayers to Broken Stones by Dan Simmons. It was written by HE and the introduction is heartbreaking. And very true.)
DIANA: Paul and I know each other for a long time. Many pastel years. We even worked together doing voiceovers on PIRATES of DARK WATER. Just say hello to him for me, tell him I luv'im, and mention that if he has a moment off from his jam-packed social calendar, he might want to give an old pal a phone call. He has the number. You might also mention to him that I called Artie podell and hipped him to Biff Rose's bleat recently. Artie
tried to sell me a car.
Harlan
CEP:
Good job! Turn the muthas out!
Now, to the Batcave!
Bill
Throw open this question to the board. Today I had two interviews as a writer for possible projects for radio and feature films. I got stumped on a question that was asked in both interviews:
"Why do you write?"
And I had to admit, I honestly don't know. It just happens. Any scribes here know why they write? I normally give the answer that its a more useful way to pass time when not having any interest in sports. Incidentally, the interviews went well but I had to admit, I was puzzled by that question.
Also got a rejection letter from another agent, probably due to my lack of enthusiasm for writing for soaps.
FAQ
DIAAAAAAAAAAAAANA,
I wasn't mad. I was playin'! I have long thought Paul Williams was a cool fella and I've never considered him to be a hack. I was just messin'witchoo.
Frankly, I am in AWE of your website-- how'd you DO that? I've been wanting to try and do one but it seems to be decidedly over my bow. Really, how'd you learn to do that? It's a great website-- and I KNOW, I've seen barge loads of bad ones.
still yer buddy,
:)
Cindy
Cindy:
Your mailbox is full. I sent you an e-card, you can pick it up at:
http://www.care2.com/ecards/p/5026-1756-14111-4544
Frank:
All kidding aside, I'd be interested in your suggestions on songwriters.
Diana
To those who "regret" their undergrad degrees:
I run into quite a few people who feel remorse for studying something interesting rather than something useful in college. Even I go through a little of that as I struggle to find employment in this shitty economy. But this is the one true lesson I learned in college: Useful don't get you a thing unless it is interesting.
As some of you may remember, I was an engineering student when I first started visiting this board four years ago. I stuck to it because it was useful, it would get me a job, it was secure. It sure as hell wasn't _that_ interesting to me. Fortunately, I found the courage to jump from the safe train and study something interesting, philosophy, just before the shit hit the fan with my family, and my father started going in and out of the hospital.
If I hadn't switched to philosophy when I did, if I had stuck to engineering, if I had stayed with useful instead of going to interesting, I probably would have dropped out of college, and still have no idea what I want to do with my life. Without interesting, we leave ourselves open for the unhappiness that comes from mediocrity, from not doing for ourselves because we chose utility rather than direction. We don't know where we're going, because it is simply safer to go with the river's flow than to fight against the current.
I may still be searching for work, but I sure as hell know where I'm going in life. I'm going to grad school next year. I'm planning to teach after that. And through it all I've still got that little writing thing I've been working on for the last half-decade. If I had stuck with useful, I don't know if I could have survived, emotionally, mentally, or maybe even physically, the shitstorm that struck mi familia at the end of the millennium, but I sure do know that I wouldn't be where I am today on the path I've set for myself.
This bit of self aggrandizing has been brought to you by the letter P. P...
---Peter
Frank?
Is nothing sacred to you, Frank? You called Paul Williams a hack? Who's next, Frank? Barry Manilow, for chrissakes?
Besides that "hack" is a multi millionaire, who's presently on The Board of Directors at ASCAP. That "hack" was recently inducted into the Songwriter's Hall of Fame, and has, to date, received or been nominated for(just to mention a few) all the following awards:
Awards & Nominations
Composer:
"Evergreen"
(from, "A Star Is Born)
Academy Award,
Grammy,
Golden Globe, Best Song
"A Star Is Born"
Golden Globe, Best Score
"Nice To Be Around"
(from, "Cinderella Liberty")
Academy Award Nomination
"Phantom of the Paradise"
Soundtrack
Academy Award Nomnation
"Rainbow Connection"
(from, "The Muppet Movie")
Academy Award Nomination
"The Muppet Movie"
Academy Award Nomination
Best
How many Golden Globe and/or Academy Awards do YOU have Frank? How many millions of dollars are you worth? When were YOU inducted into the *ANYTHING* Hall of Fame? Huh, Frank? Tell me. I bet your anwsers are "None" and "Never"
Seems to me that "hack" is doing pretty damned good for himself. Plus which, he's a humanitarian, and a philanthropist.
AND, *and*, he's damned nice.
Diana
(P.S. Thanks for the Cossack Quiche remark. That was very flattering)
CINDY!
Girlfriend! I was just kiddin' around. Honest. I didn't mean to piss you off.
(but you're funny as hell when you're mad)
There's no call to be cruel. I agree, Mr. Williams' musical stylings will never compare to The Velvet Frog's, but who's could? Besides, Paul Williams is beloved by millions. I read that at one of his other (not as good as mine) fan sites. It was written down, in plain English, correctly spelled (for the most part) so it's got to be true.
Plus I know it was you that wrote all those monkey love messages to him in my guestbook, so I know you really want him and are just trying to front. I understand. You don't want to come across as easy or anything. There's no need to pretend around me though. I'm your friend. And I understand. He really is cute. In a little love-monkey kind of way. (plus rumors, and some of those other photo's I have of him show evidence that he's actually a kind of human tripod)(if you catch you drift) Never be ashamed of love, Cindiana Jones. It's a beautiful thing (even monkey love)
Your e-pal,
Diana
On Our Patron's behalf, I sank a pirate over the weekend and fed his crew to the sharks. His DSL account has been turned off, and the (UK-based) provider is really pissed off, to use the technical term. The idiot had about $50,000 cover price in books posted and promised to post more by the weekend. And was asking for donations to support his site!
Diana, can I say this to you without sounding mean:
PAUL WILLIAMS IS A HACK!! HACK HACK HACK!!!
Can't we find better song writers in the pantheon than this?
Ugg, Diana, rack not withstanding. :-)
Alex Jay, Bern, rich, and anyone else who I've forgotten,
Thanks for the pep talks. I didn't mean for everyone to tell their life stories and turn the place into Depression Central. Even though I'm not much older than most of the students, I was walking around and realized that most of those on campus weren't in high school when I left college. At 25, I'm not used to that kind of thinking. It's sort of strange.
So far so good. The anthropology class seems interesting and the professor seems like a good guy. Of course, it's too early to tell. The text books--even the used ones--are going to be a problem for me. I'll find a way.
Thanks again, all, for the kind words. I owe y'all (yes, Cindy, that's the Texas pronunciation, not the bastardized ghetto version prevelant in the mid-1990s).
Bill
DIANA WROTE;
"Cindy?
Nicest girl posting at the forum? We're kindred spirits; right? So you'll know I'm saying this for your own good...
***I think you need to re-read that label on your pain pills***
I bet if you check you'll see it actually says "take 2 every 6 hours" not "6 every 2 hours".
:=) :=) :=)
Sincerely
Diana G."
DIANA G.
Perhaps you should check the number of Haldol YOU are taking. Paul Williams tickets for 30 bucks a piece?????? Oh WAIT but they knock of TWO for being a senior citizen and kids are only TWENTY????? THAT'll bring 'em in by droves.
Honey, he AIN'T Mel Torme!
I PARTICULARLY loved the comment about there only being 199 seats so get your tickets ASAP.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You musta been jokin' right? Really you were kiddin' huh?
:)
I REMAIN over the moon with delight that Bill is going back to school THAT takes even more guts than building a PAUL WILLIAMS Website.
LOLOLOL!
Right back atcha, kiddo, FOR yer own good.
;)
AHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA!!!!!!
CATFIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Cindy
Hello my underlings. :-)
Diana, sincerely, you want a good pro-war slant, go to the TedNugent.com website; that will set you up good sister. ;-)
---------------
I have a feeling the Cossack's would fall under Diana's spell and end up baking her a Quiche.
--------------
Eric, the good Chomsky is every time he opens his mouth. ;-)
------------
The only Farmer book I ever read was the one about the mark of the beast; probobly the most offensive novel I ever liked.
Brian's Humor Corner.
On a newsgroup, we regulars were asked by another regular to write Letters of Recommendation for her. While this is a terrific, intelligent, and well-liked person making the request, none of us could avoid writing funny recommendation letters. Here's what I came up with:
Dear Sirs;
It is my immense pleasure to recommend Miss Brown for any position you wish to hire her for. During her years in our organization, I found her to be a tough, smart, and capable employee with whom I could trust the most sensitive details of our operation. She is also extremely capable in our unique methods of client-service relations, and I would not hesitate to recommend her for similar work, for which she is well-suited. I would go so far as to say that I would be personally disappointed if Ms. Brown were not hired by your organization, and I would very much desire a personal, one-on-one meeting to discuss her future with your firm. I look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Suge Knight
Death Row Records
P.S. The seating capacity at that theater is only 199, which is to say small, so if you do decide you want to go I suggest you order your tickets ASAP.
Diana
To Whom It May Concern:
Just in case anyone's interested, Paul Williams is going to be making a (rare) Southern California appearance on February 1st, at:
City of Brea's Curtis Theatre
1 Civic Center Circle
Brea, CA
The price for admisssion is, $30 (Seniors $28, kids $20)
The program's scheduled to begin at 8:00 PM
Tickets can be ordered in person at the box office during business hours,
by mail using an order form
by phone (714) 990-7722
(the url for where you can find the pdf order form for that is:
http://www.ci.brea.ca.us/docs/CURTIS_BROCHURE_2002-03.pdf)
You can pay with a credit card ($3.00 handling fee),
by fax,
on their website at
www.curtistheatre.org,
or by e-mail to
curtistheatre@ci.brea.ca.us.
If any of you decide to go, and you get to say hello to him, I'd be appreciative if you thought to mention where it was you learned he was going to be appearing there, and maybe you could mention my fan site? (I don't think he knows that I or the site exist)
Bye for now,
Diana
In the spirit of continuing one's education I just came across this on MSN--it says "5 tough SAT questions":
http://encarta.msn.com/quiz/quiz.asp?quizid=24
It weren't so tough. No mas, errr, I mean, math!
I have to agree with others here: while I finished my BA, it was through sheer inertia, low expectations, and the ability to crank out semi-coherent 20 pagers back in the pre-computer days.
If I have one regret, it's a typical one: that I didn't take more chances, course wise, and do something different and really limit-stretching. And all in the name of protecting a GPA that doesn't make a whit of difference to me (or anyone else) 22 years later.
Alex Jay: "Wow, what?"
Wow - as in a strong reaction to a particularly candid statement - a statement well said, to boot.
And one that illustrates my position perhaps too strongly as well. (though Jay's experience is my actual mirror - no degree at all after 4 1/2 years of time and money spent.) With my lack of formal degrees and such, I've ended up owning a slowly drowning family Jewelry store in a small town in the middle of rural western New York. But life is good. (I'm actually not complaining - education was an experience I would not trade, and I met the people who would become my lifelong friends there. But at this point in my life, 36, I'm not looking to go back... There are other ways to explore this world. I'm seeking a different path. But for those heading back to education, I raise a glass, and shout "Here! Here!" - good luck.)
Bern
"Tell her you know this great guy who owns a house in University City..."
Oh, I would. And you and she would REALLY get along, I'm sure. But sadly, she's married now. If it's any consolation, the man she married is a quarter-century her elder ...
So, let's see--the woman you're wanting is 30-40, preferably irreligious, smart, attractive, and creative, who's handy with a router and a tablesaw ... well, I DO know at least three women of that description. But I sigh. They, too, are all married. Hell, even the guy I grew up with, with whom I spent countless hours playing every possible competitive sport ending in -ball, who became a guitar prodigy who never much cared about the spotlight ... even HE's getting married next month.
Right now, I can think of only two or three in my closest circles of friends who AREN'T married--and as one of those is my ex, with whom I once went wedding-ring shopping, it's little consolation.
I'm hoping that the start of warmer weather, when I'll be able to practice guitar in the park before my lessons, will open up new dating possibilities for me, but I dunno. Seems a bit of a longshot.
I still say a Webderland Singles Servioce would be a good thing ...
Alex Berman wrote, with his usual candor and elegance:
"BRIAN: You're not 40. You CAN'T be 40. No one I KNOW is 40; they're either in their twenties, in their early thirties, or LONG past forty."
Hah. I WILL be forty. Really.
"Perhaps it's time to plan an early mid-life crisis? To flirt with the little hotpanted Britneys on campus? To sit in coffeehouses looking morose in hopes someone will ask you why? To buy an overexpensive penis-substitute of a car?"
Well, a new coffeehouse just opened at the corner of my block, which is nice because it gives me a hangout, but all of the other patrons are about fifteen to twenty years younger than I.
Living around Penn has taught me something truly interesting about the Generation Gap. Remember when this phrase made the rounds in the 1960s? What I've learned is this: Generation Gaps are made and enforced _by the young_. The people I know in their thirties, forties and fifties don't mind dealing with kids in their teens and twenties. It's fun: at the very least, we can tell them about Neat Stuff they haven't encountered yet. But when young'uns talk to people in my age bracket, one gets the sense that they're trying to talk over a barrier that they've imagined to be there. Ideas from the elders are taken with suspicion, as though they contain some hidden message of reaction or authority, or some taint of being geeky or socially unacceptable.
That's one thing I do like about fandom: fans do tend to have a wider date range of cultural references. They're more likely to know about, say, the Firesign Theatre or the Goon Show than most others.
"Or perhaps not. I've always seen growing OUT as a much better aim than growing UP: Growing OUT (and no; not the same as getting too thick in the waist for your favorite jeans) is an organic process, wherein you both branch out and spread your reach ever higher and wider into the sky, all the while putting down deeper and stronger roots ("If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?")."
Oh, one tries. There is the new camcorder, of course. And I'll probably pursue that guitar lesson plan.
"Subscribe to ReadyMade and decide to build a riser in the bedroom, or a conversation pit in the living room (flanked by the beercan candelabra, the tomato-cage lamp, and the flotsam futon). Join a small theater company. And have fun!"
The woodworking's anpther ongoing thing. Sadly, though, it's kind of solitary. It's a _lot_ more fun with someone else.
You know, I used to hope that I'd marry a woman who was smart, attractive, and creative. I now add "handy with a router and tablesaw" to the list of characteristics.
"Oop. Just realized: My second-best friend in the world turns 40 this year. Of course, such milestones are better left unnamed, as far as she's concerned ..."
Tell her you know this great guy who owns a house in University City...
Alex Berman wrote, with his usual candor and elegance:
"BRIAN: You're not 40. You CAN'T be 40. No one I KNOW is 40; they're either in their twenties, in their early thirties, or LONG past forty."
Hah. I WILL be forty. Really.
"Perhaps it's time to plan an early mid-life crisis? To flirt with the little hotpanted Britneys on campus? To sit in coffeehouses looking morose in hopes someone will ask you why? To buy an overexpensive penis-substitute of a car?"
Well, a new coffeehouse just opened at the corner of my block, which is nice because it gives me a hangout, but all of the other patrons are about fifteen to twenty years younger than I.
Living around Penn has taught me something truly interesting about the Generation Gap. Remember when this phrase made the rounds in the 1960s? What I've learned is this: Generation Gaps are made and enforced _by the young_. The people I know in their thirties, forties and fifties don't mind dealing with kids in their teens and twenties. It's fun: at the very least, we can tell them about Neat Stuff they haven't encountered yet. But when young'uns talk to people in my age bracket, one gets the sense that they're trying to talk over a barrier that they've imagined to be there. Ideas from the elders are taken with suspicion, as though they contain some hidden message of reaction or authority, or some taint of being geeky or socially unacceptable.
"Or perhaps not. I've always seen growing OUT as a much better aim than growing UP: Growing OUT (and no; not the same as getting too thick in the waist for your favorite jeans) is an organic process, wherein you both branch out and spread your reach ever higher and wider into the sky, all the while putting down deeper and stronger roots ("If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?")."
Oh, one tries. There is the new camcorder, of course. And I'll probably pursue that guitar lesson plan.
"Subscribe to ReadyMade and decide to build a riser in the bedroom, or a conversation pit in the living room (flanked by the beercan candelabra, the tomato-cage lamp, and the flotsam futon). Join a small theater company. And have fun!"
The woodworking's anpther ongoing thing. Sadly, though, it's kind of solitary. It's a _lot_ more fun with someone else.
You know, I used to hope that I'd marry a woman who was smart, attractive, and creative. I now add "handy with a router and tablesaw" to the list of characteristics.
"Oop. Just realized: My second-best friend in the world turns 40 this year. Of course, such milestones are better left unnamed, as far as she's concerned ..."
Tell her you know this great guy who owns a house in University City...
BRIAN: You're not 40. You CAN'T be 40. No one I KNOW is 40; they're either in their twenties, in their early thirties, or LONG past forty.
Perhaps it's time to plan an early mid-life crisis? To flirt with the little hotpanted Britneys on campus? To sit in coffeehouses looking morose in hopes someone will ask you why? To buy an overexpensive penis-substitute of a car?
Or perhaps not. I've always seen growing OUT as a much better aim than growing UP: Growing OUT (and no; not the same as getting too thick in the waist for your favorite jeans) is an organic process, wherein you both branch out and spread your reach ever higher and wider into the sky, all the while putting down deeper and stronger roots ("If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?").
So grow out. Take a guitar course at the U. and see how people look admiringly upon you as you stumble through the four chords you know. Subscribe to ReadyMade and decide to build a riser in the bedroom, or a conversation pit in the living room (flanked by the beercan candelabra, the tomato-cage lamp, and the flotsam futon). Join a small theater company. And have fun!
Oop. Just realized: My second-best friend in the world turns 40 this year. Of course, such milestones are better left unnamed, as far as she's concerned ...
Brian, I too just turned 40, and I majored in English literature as well.
Do I regret it? Sometimes. Since my father was a doctor, and I watched him work 60+ hours a week, I never desired to get into medicine, but certainly law or something like that could have proven lucrative. Then I could have been paid to rant.
Now I do computer administration, which pays the bills and the mortgage, but it can be dreary. I went back to school to get a masters in linguistics to get into education, which finally led to computers (in education), so even though I studied people like Chomsky (the good Chomsky, Frank) and Piaget, I'm still spending most of my time planning budgets and supervising PC technicians.
Not many people can find a vocation that serves as an avocation as well. Like Vonnegut said, nobody's hobby is insurance. But at 40, maybe the best thing to do is not worry about how you acquire the dough...I know it's tough, since men are so defined by what they do for a living, but I know I'm not willing to march back into the classroom anymore. Part of this is arrogance...the local schools here field a faculty with less ability than my own, in my humble opinion, and I can't afford to go to the Ivy Leagues. The other part is time...do I really want to take more tests, write more papers, and spend my evenings sitting in lectures? No.
So, this meandering post is leading to this: do what you want, the money will follow.
Re Alex Jay's comments about education. Although I didn't want to mention it here, as it might be seen as a cheap ploy for sympathy, I'm kind of in the same boat. I turn 40 next month, and I'm finally realizing how many _bad_ decisions I've made for my life-- and where certain personality flaws and psychological disorders have contributed to those bad decisions. In other words, I'm realizing that I have to grow up at 40.
One of those decisions was to major in English, when I could have studied a substantial and meaningful subject like medicine, the law, science, or business. Even though I work at Penn, and could havetaken courses for an advanced degree, I was very reluctant because I felt that academia was avoiding the Real World. And I didn't want to get an advanced degree in English-- as far as I was concerned, they printed those things on Marcal and Charmin.
Well, now I have a mortgage, and the prospect of a retirement without a safety net, so I have to get motivated on an actual career that'll keep a roof over my head.
Academia can provide the right traning to get yourself a fairly decent life if it's properly applied. It's a risk, re-entering college when you could be chasing a career. But if Bill works at it, he could reshape his life in terrific ways.
Now, all I have to do is establish myself as something more than a part-time Administrative Assistant with a ot of free time and odd interests.
Here's an odd item from the Guardian, at http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,883075,00.html:
"A Spanish art historian has uncovered what was alleged to be the first use of modern art as a deliberate form of torture, with the discovery that mind-bending prison cells were built by anarchist artists 65 years ago during the country's bloody civil war.
Bauhaus artists such as Kandinsky, Klee and Itten, as well as the surrealist film-maker Luis Bunuel and his friend Salvador Dali, were said to be the inspiration behind a series of secret cells and torture centres built in Barcelona and elsewhere, yesterday's El Pais newspaper reported."
BERN: Wow what?
JAY: I think Pierre's is the best costumer in town--and may well be the best non-NYC costumer on the East Coast.
http://www.costumers.com/home.html
From the website, I get the feeling they're willing to work with smaller companies as well as the big guys (the Russian Ballet, lots of team and corporate mascots) to best suit both needs and abilities. Looks like prices run on a sliding scale, and they give discounts for groups of ten or more.
And damn ... since I won't have a car until spring or early summer, I won't be able to try and make the auditions. Shame. I think I could probably fit one of your roles. Ah, well.
Hey - I went to college, maintained a 3.5 GPA, transferred twice and came away with nothing, not even an Associates degree for my 4 years. In fact, I dropped 15K on schooling that means little to nothing since I abandoned the job track those credits would have tied me to after graduation. It's even less potent now since 6 years have passed and the specialized training credit has expired and I'd have to take the courses over again.
But after 2 courses, I'd need a speech and a gym to earn a BA.
If I had the time or money, would I go back just to say I earned it? No, but I would go back for springtime in the quad to watch all the miniskirts in bloom, or maybe write a column for the student newspaper again in the interest of provoking the sheep. I did enjoy the radio station gig. All that freedom and none of the responsibility... not better days, but easier, more carefree ones.
Alex Jay, Brian..anyone else
Know any cooperative, reasonably priced, decent costume shop anywhere between Exton, Allentown and the Delaware River? Preferably, someone with a seamstress that can do alterations.
Also, I don't expect anyone outside the Harrisburg area to show up, but I'm excited to announce I'm holding my first auditions (instead of just picking people off the street or who were available as per usual) for our fanfilm movie "Hope Chest" in late February. (try to diagram that last sentence...I dare you.) We've got a funny script and, I think, a good chance to win or place in the Wizard magazine Direct-to-Video contest.
I need a distraction from the kids. Pam says I'm beginning to talk "baby edits" all the time, which means I'm using the word "potty" or saying "time for numnums" when there are no kids around.
Bill,
What Bern said about what Alex Jay said.
By the way, the best commercial last night was the one with Willie Nelson. Maybe the zebra looking into the replay monitor is a close second.
Bill - What Alex Jay Said.
Alex Jay - Wow.
Bern
BILL: It is most assuredly NOT a failure. Failure, to put it ever-so-modestly, is me. I got a 1420 on the SAT back when it meant something, and got a mostly-free ride into the best undergrad journalism program on the East Coast.
And I pissed it away because I was angry at getting grades I didn't deserve. THAT'S failure, Bill, even though I'm now making only a little less than my best friend with two degrees (but he's a prof, so I suppose his earnings should be viewed through the jaundiced eyes of a society that doesn't pay its teachers). It's failure because I've convinced myself I CAN'T go back for some time, simply because of my strong aversion to debt.
It's failure because I'm not doing what I should be; I've painted myself into a corner and am afraid of getting pigment on my feet.
(*)HAPPIER NOTE WILL FOLLOW
YOU, on the other hand, are showing courage in going back--even though you may not think it so. You are going back for the grind for the betterment of your wife and child, and in so doing, are exhibiting that greatest quality of our fathers (and mothers): The gritted teeth toward GETTING IT DONE. Car payments? Mortgage? Sell the coin collection. Take a second job. Scrimp and save and forego the pleasures. Getting it done. It's not easy, and it's often not pleasant, but it needs doing, and I admire you for doing so.
(By the by: I feel for your Crohn's-induced problems. I myself get to play "The Redneck and the Inquisitive Alien" with the gastroenterologist next month, to find if I indeed have inherited Mom's ulcerative colitis.)
(*) It should be pointed out that not all is horrible depression in my failure-ridden world: I may have scoed a more-than-occasional writing gig, I'm up for consideration for a Tech Writer job at work--which is more toward what I SHOULD be doing--and I'm starting to take on-the-job accounting courses in hopes of being able to apply for a position in the Criminal Investigation Branch.
(Yes, I want the IRS to give me a gun. Give in to your fear now. Avoid the rush.)
5:09 AM here and somewhere nearby a horn is blaring. The Patriots weren't in The Game last night so I know it's not THAT. I know who won but don't remember the name (The Not-The-Raiders). I hear Oakland is being trashed. So many heated emotions over a game. This is how good I am about it, I turned the tv on at 7 PM EST to try and catch the first commercial break to catch a good shot of the Hulk from the upcoming movie, only to find that the game had been on an hour. I've got to look into these things a little more or something.
Cindy,
Thanks. You've made me blush.
It's funny, though, I tell people I'm going back and they are happy, congratulate me. My parents dipped into their pocket (again) and got me a notebook computer (I asked for a goddamn Olympia portable from Dan Puls for $200, they get me a THOUSAND DOLLAR contraption...I accept, begrudgingly...it's got a DVD so I can watch movies at the bus station, hardy har-har). Many I've told (which is not a lot, except for last night, I haven't gone and announced it) are thrilled for me and pat me on the shoulder. I see it as a failure. Regardless of how crazy that is, I can't stop myself from seeing it any other way. The one thing I have going for me now, though, is that I just won't put up with it anymore. Either they'll do their jobs and teach me something or they're going to be sorry. I am not getting more into debt with loans so that they can force me to take Cookie Baking 101 for an Education Requirement when I'm going there as an English major. Aargh!
Okay okay all right all right, I'm going now. One class today, my first in five years, and I had strange dreams about Mr. E coming into the anthropology class I have and causing a ruccus. The LAST time I go straight to bed from Webderland!
Take care,
Bill
After enduring years of ridicule & tons of kidding all I have ta say this Monday morning is....
HOW BOUT THEM BUCS!
Sorry but being from Florida's Tampa Bay area I just could'nt resist! I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
Morning Harlan & Susan I hope you both emjoyed the game!
John P.
Cindy?
Nicest girl posting at the forum? We're kindred spirits; right? So you'll know I'm saying this for your own good...
***I think you need to re-read that label on your pain pills***
I bet if you check you'll see it actually says "take 2 every 6 hours" not "6 every 2 hours".
:=) :=) :=)
Sincerely
Diana G.
Okay...Who's the monkey girl? The one who's gone ape for Paul Williams? Leaving (so far) 7...count 'em 7 passionate simian love messages to him in my guestbook? I've got your IP# missy. Don't make me report you to the ASPCA, or The Humane Society, or something.
Diana
(P.S. I've got "better" pictures of him. Inappropriate for a nice family oriented type site like that one. E-mail me if you're interested) (But I warn you, it's gonna cost you)
BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BILL, BILL, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU are the REASON that I have faith that my son NICK will some day grow up.
YOU are a TREASURE and I am CERTAIN that you will be one of the scant reasons that you professors find to look forward to class.
YOU ARE GOING TO BE GREAT THIS TIME AROUND AND I---- I--- AM YOUR CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
KICK ASS, BILL AND TAKE THEIR NAMES--- ON THEIR WAY BACK UP THEY'LL BE SAYIN' THEY KNEW YOU.
:)
I think you're GRAND... I REALLY DO.
:)
CINDIANA JONES
Warren *Devon*? Who the heck is Warren *D*evon. Of course I meant Warren *Z*evon....(slinks away in shame)
Carrot Top: Frizzy-haired man-goblin who isn't very funny. Seems like a decent guy, though.
Chuck
Predictions:
There are those who think Jules Verne and H. G. Wells had some kind of insight. Verne, I think got a number of things right because he managed a good balance of technical & scientific homework with imagination. Of course, you need a good translation to see how good he was, since the standard translations are so bad they've been described as tantamount to character assassination.
His Trip to the Moon novels get a lot of notice, especially since his description of the lunar voyage paralleled that of Apollo 8. An aluminum, bullet-shaped spacecraft is launched from Florida, propelled by an oversized ballistic weapon built by munitions manufacturers. They orbit the moon and use rocket motors to propel themselved back to Earth. After a firey re-entry, they splash down in the Pacific Ocean and are picked up by a U.S. Naval Vessel. Verne or Apollo 8? Of course, the descriptions are rather vague, which emphasises the similarities.
Verne simply did his homework, and guessed the society that would most likely mount an expedition to the moon someday would be the U.S. He also guessed, correctly, that it would be launced from the parts of the U.S. closest to the equator: Texas or Florida. He naturally assumed there would be a fierce competition between the states, and managed to win the 50-50 gamble and picked Florida as the winner. The most "uncanny" parallel between fact and fiction was mission commander Frank Borman's claim that the position Verne gave for the splashdown was only a matter of feet from the splashdown point of Apollo 8.
Verne, by the way, also thought about the implications of a reaction motor that could lob tons of weight to the moon. In the book, several governments protested the development of the Columbiad space gun as it could be used to lob explosives at targets on the Earth. Rather like an ICBM. Technical and human insight from Jules Verne.
I've also read THE WORLD SET FREE by H. G. Wells in which he writes about atomic energy, including the building and use of atomic bombs. Planes drop A-bombs all over Europe, with devastating results. The book was published before the First World War. Again, this was mostly insight into science and human nature.
Chuck
RE: Carrot Top. Funny enough, I caught HE in Big Rapids, MI a week before CT was to make an appearence. Not so funny, many of the students there were expecting CT or were there as an "English credit". Quite a few of the 'Faithful' were there, though, and His talk was wildly funny and memorable. (This was....2 years ago??)
Stuff.
I'm almost finished _Coldheart Canyon_, which is neat because I started this 700-page book this morning. I've passed the point where most novelists would've stopped, so I'm hoping Barker has a decent denouement that's worth the extra hundred pages or so.
Re Wiccans. I can sympathize with Alex's dislike of what he sees as poseurs and dillettantes. But I get a bit irritable around the ones who are serious, too. That's because most neo-pagan stuff, including Wicca, is a _reconstructed_ religion at best. It's been reinvented to reflect the modern world, somewhat-- and as such, it's not so much received insight as it is repackaged. And the degree to which people believe in it, or practice it, is mostly of their own conscious volition-- unlike religions into which one is born, where it's sort of grown into the bones.
Now, this isn't such a bad thing. Mainstream religions have adopted in very profound ways to the modern world, and a Catholic, a Jew or a Protestant of 2003 isn't as superstition- and ritual-driven as one of 1903. So it's not as if the mainstream religions are as oppressive as they once were, and their large user-base helps them fulfill the "sense of community" aspects of religious faith.
So even when someone is disenchanted with the major religions of our day, why would they simply adopt _another_, and avoid the step of rejecting _all_ religion? In other words, if you don't like living in _one_ pre-scientific set of tribes and prejudices, why merely choose a different set? Why not reject tribalism and prejudice _in toto_?
To Alex Berman, re predictions. Your mention of Nostradamus reminds me of a game I invented called Nostradamus Roulette. Each player gets a different translation of Nostradamus, three or four being the minimum. A quatrain is selected randomly, and read aloud. The other players must guess what event the quatrain is supposed to predict. Each player gets a point for each time their guess matches one of the other players' editions. (The Strip version, where articles of clothing are removed for each success, is especially popular among Mormons and the Taliban.)
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
YA-HOO!!! I won another web site award! They'll be no living with me now. I'm going to to have to go buy all new hats, to fit my swelled head. This one is The Golden Web Award...I'm so very proud of me....
"A=...and I want to thank my mom, my dad, & I'm sending special props to The Big Kahuna In The Sky. I WON (*sob*) I WON. This means you LIKE me...you really really like me! (*slobber* *sob*)"
Diana
P.S. For those who somehow (how is that possible?) missed my last eighteen posts about this *AWARD WINNING* site, the url for it is:
http://www.intothenight.net
Thanks Alex Jay, & Brian. That was the kind of information I was looking for.
Maybe it would have been better if I used the word "anticipated", instead of "predicted", it would then have seemed less like I was talking about some kind of psychic hocus-pocus.
I think I'd heard Jack London was a foreign correspondent. I think I remember being told that some of what he'd had to say was discounted because of his political views, or something. It was, by the way, (and now that I think about it further) not something I read, but a conversation I had with my father, many years ago.
Diana
To Alex Jay:
I just checked out your Something Positive link. Just call me Eva Olsen. :=)
Personally I can't see why someone who was well informed about a subject, or sincerely "into" something (like Wicca or whatever) would get so furious at a casual dabbler the way that cartoon character (and some real life "true-believers" I've come across) felt inclined to do. The character seemed shrill, hysterical, sanctimonious, self-important, overly harsh, critical, and judgemental (and not particularly funny). At least that's how it looked to me. I wasn't amused. I mean SO WHAT? Really? So what? So some silly kid is just attracted to the outer trappings of a faith? All that ranting and raving against it smacks of more of that "Us & Them", "kill the apostate" "burn the witch" mentality that I was talking about in an earlier post. In real life it'd probably be counterproductive, also. If someone were sincerely interested in communicating a deeper, and more accurate knowledge of their beliefs that is. A less strident and volatile manner would most likely be more effective. Maybe then someone less well informed would come away from an interchange more well informed, and with a better impression of the kind of people who were involved with the religion. Instead of walking off, after having someone shouting in their face like that, thinking "What a f'kin' asshole!"
I'll check out your suggestions regarding Warren Devon. I looked up the lyrics for Werewolves of London, which I haven't heard, actually, but clever and catchy apply to the words rightly enough. I'm already interested.
Diana
In November 1997, my then-girlfriend, now-wife, was pregnant. We were about to get our own apartment. I hated college. They'd ripped me off, treated me like shit, and I just couldn't take it anymore. With the romantic idea of running away to follow my dream of writing professionally (not to mention a certain favorite writer's story of leaving college after punching a professor out)(and ignoring another favorite writer's story of finishing college and becoming a high school English teacher, but I digress...)in my head, I left.
Tomorrow, 27 January 2003, I return to college. A different school but, judging from the shit I went through during Thursday's orientation day, the same problems. I did it out of desperation. The writing is beginning to look a little promising with a few small credits, but nothing to be able to put any real faith on. If I were single, without a 4-soon-to-be-5-year-old, I wouldn't go back. But with the bill collectors calling, with the inability to do anything that could leave me in trouble if I need to have a Crohn's Disease-induced bowel movement (I know, it's not a pretty image, but it's a factor and I want to tell the truth) like moving furniture or crates for a living (imagine having a couch in your hands when the stomach goes grgrbl), and the desire to get out of this shitty apartment and provide more for my daughter than I do now, I decided to bite the bullet and go back. I have about two and a half years left (I'd have less had I had two less F's, one less D, and two less withdrawals). I'm not looking forward to them. At least I know that the dream isn't dead. It's not even dormant. It's just another obstacle on the road to achievement. Besides, I know my luck. Now that I've gone back, I'll start selling lots of stuff just to spite me!
I say now, though, with my hand raised to the sky like young Bruce Wayne's, I will do everything in my power to persuade the powers that be to get Harlan Ellison a speaking gig! It may not be this year, but, dammit! I will try it before I'm out in 2005-ish.
Have a good one all.
This mindless babbling brought to you by the letter:
Bill
Jack London may well have warned about Japanese attacks on the US, but any warnings he may have made would have had to be taken with a humongous grain of salt, as he died in 1916, before America entered even the First World War.
The Japanese war London DID have an angle on was the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1906), during which he could be called the most successful war correspondent, able to go and report on areas not covered by the other journalists, due to his experiences in harsh living circumstances. He was also arrested three times, the first as a suspected spy (take enough pictures near a military base TODAY, and the same'll happen to you), the second arrest coming due to complaints to the Japanese Foreibgn Ministry--complaints which came from the very correspondents London's work was showing up, and the third after he punched out a Japanese soldier for allegedly stealing fodder from London's horse.
The reasons some have touted him as "predicting" Pearl Harbor are threefold, yet still inadequate: Before the attack made Pearl famous, it was known that London lived there for several years, serving as it did as the jumping-point for several of his books on South Sea Islands.
The comment most use as evidence for his clairvoyance was made upon his return from the Russo-Japanese War: "The Japanese might one day collaborate on an 'adventure' which could shatter the long domination of the Western World." Hardly a prediction of "Tora! Tora! Tora!"
But perhaps the biggest reason people think him as being the Jeane Dixon (Sydney Omarr?) of WWII is due to the biographical film made in 1943, entitled, oddly enough, JACK LONDON. The film played up his minor skirmishes with Japanese military authority, and made a lot more up, showing those evil Japanese being cruel, depraved, and just the sort of people you'd want to send your boys off to fight. It's propaganda of the basest form, and has been used in a great many courses on Racism in Film.
As for someone predicting the September 11th attack ... yes. Maybe. There are those who believe that the attacks WERE predicted, by those renowned psychics at the FBI. Coverups at the FBI have also been alleged by several sources, so who knows? Brian has cited the O'Neill connection, and there are MANY reports that the FBI was told to "back off" the bin Laden family directly after the Bush administration came into office, but these are not yet conclusive.
There WAS, however, a report on the use of passenger planes being used as projectile bombs against buildings in which was written in the 90's, but I haven't too much time to look for that one right now; dinner needs making.
Of course, according to some, E.B. White predicted an attack like that of September 11th's in his book HERE IS NEW YORK, published in 1949:
"The city, for the first time in its long history, is destructible. A single flight of planes no bigger than a wedge of geese can quickly end this island fantasy, burn the towers, crumble the bridges, turn the underground passages into lethal chambers, cremate the millions. The intimation of mortality is part of New York now; in the sounds of jets overhead, in the black headlines of the latest editions.
All dwellers in cities must live with the stubborn fact of annihilation; in New York the fact is somewhat more concentrated because of the concentration of the city itself, and because, of all targets, New York has a certain clear priority. In the mind of whatever perverted dreamer might loose the lightning, New York must hold a steady, irresistible charm."
(Of course, White was referring to planes which would drop atomic bombs ...)
But Nostradamus predicted 9/11, right? Nope. It's a hoax: http://www.ed-u.com/nostradamus.htm
And some would have us believe that the attacks were somehow predicted by the U.S. Mint: http://www.unitedjustice.com/stories/$20bill.html
To Diana: There is a famous account of FBI Deputy Director John O'Neill, who spent a lot of time warning the U.S. about the threat from Al Qaeda. He was repeatedly told to back off on his investigations because they might've endangered diplomatic relations with the Taliban. He either resigned, or was asked to resign, and in late August of 2001 he promptly took on a position as head of security at the World Trade Center.
There's a dandy Frontline documentary on O'Neill, available at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/
As for Jack London's "prediction," I wouldn't worry too much about it. With thousands of fiction writers out there, and with apocalypse tales usually decent sellers, I'm sure _someone_ described an attack that had certain similarities to that on Pearl Harbor.
Here's a terrific example. A guy named Morgan Robertson wrote a short novel titled "The Wreck of the Titan, or Futility." The novel(la) described the largest ocean liner afloat, and how it struck an iceberg on its maiden voyage and sank in the North Atlantic. It was written in 1898-- and fourteen years later, a similar but little-known maritime disaster occurred with the loss of roughly 1500 souls.
Thing is, the novella was but one of many tales about sea disasters; the age of such ships naturally provoked the imagination of their disaster. Sort of like the way the novels of Tom Clancy and many others seem "prescient" after 9/11.
To Alex: the oil trick keeps the gunk from spreading and getting unruly, that's all.
To Alex Jay,
Sorry about the mix up on the names. I'm usually trying to do eight or nine things at once, and I get confused sometimes.
About my son's assignment. It's a debate (not an essay) that's been scheduled for next week sometime. Since none of the kids were actually willing to support the pro war side of the issue his teacher had to draft some of them to represent the "hawks" The Beloved Offspring was one of draftees. He's looking to make the best of it.
As an offshoot of us (my son and I) discussing the matter, by the way, I now have another question. I seem to recall having read somewhere that years before the attack on Pearl Harbor, Jack London predicted that something like that was going to happen, only no one (apparently) took him seriously. I would like to find a source where I can read more about this, if in fact such a prediction was ever made by him. If anyone can help me out on this one I'd appreciate it. Also was there any warning/prediction made regarding the September 11th tragedy that went unheeded also?
Diana
Alex Jay -
Actually, I just went to Zevon's site. Standing betwen Zevon and some other guy, Dr. Gonzo looks just slightly better than the dead guy in the marquee poster of "Weekend At Bernie's" Every picture looks like he's half-dead and being propped up for a photo op.
You know, if I'm diagnoses with a terminal disease that will get more painful and debilitating as it eats me away, I say: hook me up with Doctor Gonzo and bill my insurance company. I doubt I'd realize I'm dead until St. Peter puts me in detox mansion.
BRIAN: I dunno about the oil stuff--when I've caulked stuff and smoothed with my finger, I've just done it bareback. Afterward, I just rub it off as it semihardens, balling it up with thumb abd forefinger.
(Of course, it should be pointed out that I don't tend to feel pain, and once gave myself a second-degree burn with my own thumb without noticing--I'd gotten a splinter on the back of my hand, and to stop the bleeding, started rubbing it quickly to cauterize it. Rubbed it too much, and burned a square-inch patch on the back of my hand. Oh, well--it was less annoying and painful than the role-playing game my then-girlfriend had dragged me to watch.)
Just came back from my parents' where I again fixed the bathroom skylight. My mother had gone to the Home Show yesterday, and actually bought a "Mrs. Fixit" book. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry--outside of some gardening, my mother hasn't worked with her hands since doing the Seventies Earth Mother macrame thing when my sister and I were kids.
Oh--I had wanted to post this link when we were talking about Wicca a few days back, but wasn't able to find it until now:
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.html
It pretty much encapsulates how I feel about and what I've said to "amateur Wiccans-Lite". I have friends who are seriously (by which I mean earnest-ly and learned-ly) and respect their beliefs. The "Oh, this is so, like, cool" people who seem to treat the religion as just another hiptrendy accessory of the Goth Age like nipple rings or arrant stupidity, however, earn nothing but my disgust and the occasional kick in the ass.
To Chuck: I've already forwarded it to another newsgroup. It's a hokey joke, but it works, and that's what matters.
I finished recaulking the bathtub, gang. And here's are a pair of mutually-exclusive home-repair tips for this task. The first is to use the corner of a defunct credit card to smooth out the caulk. The other is to smooth it with your finger-- but, since caulk sticks like peanut butter, you coat your finger in vegetable oil before you apply it to the caulk. Goes on nice'n'smooth. I'm a tad worried that the oil might create a layer where the different segments of caulk won't join, but that's what makes life interesting. Caulking.
Diana: I'm surprised that you've never heard of Warren Zevon. Or maybe not: he's always been a cult figure, and his biggest era of fame was more than twenty years ago.
I was in Best Buy the other day, and I asked about a documentary about the Clash. Kid I asked didn't know what I was talking about. "Clash? Punk band, really political, late seventies, early eighties? Lead singer Joe Strummer just died?" God knows what might've happened if I'd asked about John Lennon.
Anyhoo, back to _Coldheart Canyon_, or dinner.
Re Zevon and his medical care: Damn, sign me up for _that_ HMO.
DIANA: A gentle reminder: Jay Smith is "Jay," P.A. Berman is "Bermanator," Alex Krislov is "Alex K.," and I am "Alex"--"Alex Jay" if you need to distinguish me from the excellent Mr. Krislov.
As for Zevon, you've probably heard "Werewolves of London," and maybe heard "Lawyers, Guns, and Money." Pick up "A QUIET NORMAL LIFE" or the two-disc "I'LL SLEEP WHEN I'M DEAD," his two Best of's, for some intelligent and catchy music.
So, DID the teacher assign both viewpoints?
Hi Cookie,
That's just what I was trying to say about him. You put it beautifully. Thanks so much.
Diana
Hey Jay,
I started out wondering "Who is "Zevon"?", so I went and looked him up on the internet, and I can see why you made the connection to His Dimunutive Greatness. I figured maybe you were being sarcastic, but I've read that article from the LA Times (http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl-et-boucher13sep13.story) and I understand why Warren Zevon came to your mind while you were (obviously) reading what I had to say on my site about Paul Williams.
I'll say this again, because you might have missed that earlier post. I'm not a fan of Paul Williams' singing. And I'm not a passinate fan of his music, but I've become, in the course of designing that site for him, a fan of the man himself. I discovered that he's done some *good* music. Very good. Quiet, solid, nice stuff. Not great. Not flamboyant, or spectacular, or viscerally passionate, maybe, but good. And he's been steadily, and consistently producing it for years and years. I was surprised to discover I liked some of his songs. Not LOVED them, but liked them. He writes NICE music. The kind that doesn't cram an ice pick in your brain. No sharp but quickly fading thrills there. No blazes of glory. But they stay with you. Gently. Steadily. Inconspicuously. You can listen to them again. And again, because they play easy on your mind, until they become soothingly familiar. And dear. That's nice.
And Paul Williams is like his music. Kind of witty, and sardonic, and clever. Decent, and romantic. He's a very smart man. Not brilliant, not a genius, but smart. And he's talented. Not hugely breathtakingly talented, but definately talented. And he's consistent. And he's modest. And he's generous. And he's kind.
I like the guy. As you can probably tell.
Bye for now.
Diana
Brian & Jay,
Just so we're clear on this, I didn't create the haunted picture. It was e-mailed to me by a freind. Damn thing made me jump out of my chair.
Then I sent a reply to my friend: "Hugh, you bastard, I oughta.... Of course, I was laughing while I wrote it.
And then I thought, "Hmmmmm. Who can I spring this one, someone who might appreceate it..."
And naturally, I thought of the Webderland.
Enjoy.
Chuck
I also have a great deal of admiration and respect for Paul Williams, Diana. He is a good craftsman and his songs have a purity and center. He's not a poser. Some of my favorites: "Rainbow Connection," "Love Dance, "Close Enough for Love."
JAY: Right now, I'd pay good green to see and hear Zevon play ANYTHING.
You ever look at the pics on his site? The idea of being "attended to by his personal physician, Dr. Hunter S. Thompson" is scary as hell. Still, they gave him two months to live five months ago, so maybe The Mad Doctor knows something we don't ...
Diana: One thing's been scratching at my epicathic fold; clawing and scrabbling to get out of my skull: Has your child's teacher also asigned students to write ANTI-war essays? If not, you should complain to the school's principal: Teachers should not be in the business of solely propagandizing for the government (or for the other side, for that matter; schools should be for OPENING children's minds, not just cracking wide the braincase and shoveling stuff in).
Diana -
I feel the same way about Carrot Top. Misunderstood genius, he is. 48 years old and can STILL play the young fool! He was the Steve the Dell User before there even WAS a Steve the Dell User. :)
Seriously, I admire Paul Williams a great deal. I'd pay to see him and Zevon play Werewolves of London as a duet on 2 pianos.
To Jay Smith
You're a crazy person, Jay. You're crazy, and you made me laugh. These are two good things. Thanks for signing my guestbook. That was the funniest message I've gotten in there so far.
I agree with you on Mr. Ellison's little Cossack anecdote. God that man can WRITE. God, god, god! How wierd am I? I got all flushed and excited from reading it. Sheesh.
Now if only I could get him to sign my guestbook.
Then again, maybe not. It would depend on what kind of a mood he was in when he signed. If he was feeling particularly puckish he might scare the hell out of some of Mr. William's fans. They're generally a shy and skittish group at best.
I also agree with you about the man who wrote "Rainbow Connection". He'll always have a place in my heart. But do you know that until I started doing research for that site I didn't know Paul Williams wrote that? Or most of the other things he did. Did you see the song list? Incredible. And I'm figuring that's just the half of it. He's probably got shoe boxes full of stuff in his closets that he just never has gotten around to finishing. He's mostly a lyricist, by the way, although it turns out that the three songs he's done that are my favorites are ones he did both the words & music for. (Ordinary Fool, Where Do I Go From Here, & That's What Friends Are For)
If someone were to ever take him seriously as an actor, which is what he went to Hollywood to be in the first place, I think he could surprise the living hell out of everybody (again) and earn himself an Academy Award nomination, and other critical acclaim. If he had a part something like the one Peter Fonda had in Ulee's Gold, maybe.
No one ever listens to me, though, so it probably won't happen, but I'm right. And if it ever does happen, you heard it here first folks. And I'm gonna say "I told you so".
Diana
Kurt Vonnegut is doing a commercial for SUVs? _If_ this is true, I hope he has a good reason for it.
Oh, I've started reading Clive Barker's _Coldheart Canyon_, and it's been a little difficult putting it down so I can clean my bathroom and re-do the caulking around the bathtub. And no, it's not because it's also one of those books from a Clive Barker story, where steel hooks spring out and pierce my hands and make me scream with unholy pleasure and pain while a half-demoniac seraglio of beautiful men and women bathed in blood cackle with delight as they stroke their wolverines and call for the sacrifices of twelve-year-old orphans whose eyeballs have been plucked out with silver tools with silk handles. It's because it's a pretty good read. Damn you, Clive Barker, damn you to He-- well, Heaven or Hell, it's sort of all the same in Clive Barker's books, isn't it?
So I gotta get some household maintenance done.
Diana -
Here's another interesting link for the pro-war/anti-war debate, though it's antiwar, it's lapses in common sense would help your son's case.
www.humanshields.org
So, which is scarier...
Harlan's Cossack story?
or that Kurt Vonnegut is now doing and SUV commercial?
GUNTHER,
HOUSE OF LEAVES is one of the more finer recent 'bestsellers', as far as I'm concerned. Some of the narrative devices the author uses are a teensy bit gimmicky time-to-time, but overall I thought he really DID capture a wonderful feeling of creeping terror. Something lurking just beyond our plane of understanding, something horrifying merely in the fact that it's so ALIEN. One of the few other times I had such a sensation was H.P. Lovecraft's THE COLOUR OUT OF SPACE.
Enjoy your read. I did.
Welllllllll.
Since there doesn't seem to be a flame war going on right now (joke! JOKE! PUT DOWN THE AXE!), I'm going to try -- if I may -- to harness the brain powers of this think tank.
I've been reading Mark Z. Danielewski's HOUSE OF LEAVES, which presents its text in rather unusual form. If you haven't seen it, a (very tiny) example is at http://tinyurl.com/4wva
I've also read Arno Schmidt's later books, which are in similar layouts, but I (arrogantly?) assume he hasn't much been heard of outside of Germany.
I also heard that William S. Burroughs used similar cut-up techniques in his novels, but the translated collection I have does not reproduce this.
So: anyone have examples of other authors who layouted like this? Excepting Harlan's story "The Region Between," which I also know of.
Secondly, while I'm at it, I'll be getting a copy of the CODEX SERAPHINIANUS (http://tinyurl.com/4wve) and was wondering if there are any similar books out there.
Thanks.
Diana -
That last Ellison post proves he can out Batman Batman for sheer otherworldly chill.
As for His Diminuative Greatness, I will ALWAYS hold the author of "The Rainbow Connection" in high esteem, even if he DID do those horrible Smokey & The Bandit flicks. I don't know about the hair. He looks like a miniature version of Warren Zevon.
Oh..Excuse me a moment. There's a Mr. Irony at the door. He wants to tell me something about your website.
(back) NOW I get it.
Cindy -
Glad you're feeling better. I read about Stephen King's bout of having to have his eardrums punctured on purpose several times to drain fluid...(shudder) I'm sorry 'bout that.
Chuck -
Oh MAN! I was expecting to look, come back and say something smarmy like "Hey, all I saw was a sailboat...it's one of those Magic Eye things, right?"
THAT was good. (applaud)
You may remember my posting some weeks back on the new Twilight Zone revisiting the "wish-you-into-the-cornfield" classic episode "It's a Good Life." Well, according to a letter from Bill Mumy (on Peter David's website), it's in the can and scheduled for airing Wednesday, February 19th.
(Although the thought of Billy Mumy being 50 is far creepier to me than whatever may be in the episode.)
HEY: Here's a site you all may like: Want to read about James Cameron's version of SOLARIS? Or Spielberg's remake of 2001?
Well, you get these, along with some great science fiction film criticism and humor on one of the only two blogs I read, Robin Pen's "The View From Mt. Pootmootoo", at http://members.iinet.net.au/~robinpen/blogger.html
(and bitch at him to put the older archives up, while you're there)
John G,
Thanks for those names. I just passed them on to my son.
Cindy,
You crack me up. You're so crazy.
Chuck,
Thanks for signing my guestbook, that was so nice of you.
Bye for now.
Diana
I miss Heather.
Diana,
coincident to reading your last few messages, I came across a review for "The Threatening Storm:The Case for Invading Iraq" by Kenneth Pollack. Haven't read the book, but a quick look on Amazon shows it may be the sort of "pro" book you wanted for debate materials.
And in just the last two days I've seen editorials by Richard Cohen, James Lilleks, Thomas Freidman, and even some good stuff from Nicholas Von Hoffman (in the NY observer) that might make for good points in that debate, one way or the other. (These ones, mostly pro) I'm guessing most of them could be found on various on-line sites.
Re The Cossacks:
I was just looking into them a little on the internet. The definition as to what/who The Cossacks are is still being debated. They're kind of a warrior sub-culture in Russia, apparently, but their origins are complicated. Many of them migrated to the US around the turn of the last century. My father's father's family were Russian. They migrated here at the turn of the last century.
I think that's interestiing so I thought I'd share.
Diana
Hey again Brian,
I meant to thank you for that url for my son's debate research. I just gave it to him a few minutes ago, I think he's checking it out right now.
If anyone else knows of other web sites he can check out with a "pro war in Iraq" slant to their writings, I'd appreciate your sharing the information with me, please.
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Bye for now,
Diana
Hey Brian,
No, I'm 5' 4" tall (with or without "rack"). The subject of my celebrity fan site stands at a legendary 5'2" tall. (although other places list his height at only 5 feet even) In case you missed what went before, the url for the site I designed, which I just received my first web site award for today, is:
http://www.intothenight.net
Diana
To Diana: So you're about 5'6", brunette, blue eyes, nice rack. Just the image I need in front of me as I contemplate my miserable, barren love life.
Oh, well, At least I can make you think with my mere words.
To Harlan, re the Cossack story. I've heard that tale several times before. I know you've used it in one of your stories, and I think I saw it mentioned in a Stephen King tale as well. I think someone told it in one of Studs Terkel's interviews in _"The Good War"_. Yours might be the first that mentioned the Cossacks, though.
To Chuck, re the haunted photograph. VERY nicely done. Actually gave me a jolt.
P.S.
Oh, and Cindy? That's not me at that site. Sheesh. I just designed it. I'm expecting a video-cam in the mail any day now. If it ever gets here I'll try and put some still shots of myself on my "me" web site. Which pretty much sucks, but I can post anything I want there.
No, I'm about two inches taller than His Diminutive Greatness (
(5' 4"),and unlike him, I'm a brunette, not a blonde, my eyes are blue, not green, and I have no "nads". (it would be immodest of me to mention that I do have large breasts, and a tattoo of a flaming yin/yang symbol emblazoned over the top of the left one, so I won't say anything about that)
Bye for now
Diana
Hey Cindy,
Everything's fine. Due to his still crappy eyesight THE OLD GUY got into the wrong tent. So I am unnerved, but unscathed.
Anyway, I don't suppose you accidently found YOURself in the wrong place too? If you went to www.intothenight...COM, well I've heard that site is an "adult" site. I've heard naked humans are pictured there, baring their genitalia in what I expect somebody imagined would be an enticing manner.
No, my site, which is a celebrity fan site, and which can be found at, www.intothenight.NET, is suitable to be viewed by even the most prudish sorts.
Not that I was suggesting YOU'RE a prudish sort. No,not at all. I was just saying...
Bye for now.
Diana
Diana... Diana?
Wake up! Diana. Dianaaaaaaa?
OHHHHHHHHHHH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOMEBODY HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!
Diana, SCARES what little LIFE there is left in me OUT!!!!!!!!
As y'all know my right eardrum ruptured last week the next day the left one went too. I have been in bed since MONDAY and NOW THIS!!!
I see Diana's post and my eye keys on the words "my website" and the url... so I'M thinkin' okay! Let's take a peek at what our Diana looks like.
http://www.intothenight.net
My eyes are drawn immediately to the photo in the center of the page.
IMAGINE MY HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN there was the blinding realization that I KNEW HER FROM SOMEPLACE.
Anyway-- Diana, you really are cute.. but I don't really see any similarity between you and Harlan... unless, has Harlan grown a Colonel Sanders that I am unaware of?
In any case the website rocks, I only have one sugestion for you. "NADS"--- but hide the box when your son is around.
:)
Cindy
Thank you all who wished me recovery on my near deathbed.
:)
Y'all are the cat's--
love,
Cindy
HARLAN: Now that you've fully recovered from the surgery, I wonder if you're acting like a friend of mine, and just taking time to LOOK at everything.
Said friend--older than you--had his cataracts fixed, and spent the next two weeks marveling at all he could SEE--simple things he had not noticed for years.
GUITARISTS ON THE BOARD: Since BOS weighed in, showing us a new product, I figured I'd share this one with you. The "Jellifish" is a new plectrum device, which looks quite interesting, allowing a lot of new sounds to be wrung from a guitar.
Details at http://www.jellifish.com
A friend of mine just ordered one; if you like, I'll tell you what he thinks.
(Though I still think it a trifle more expensive than I'd be willing to pay.)
DIANA:
Here is a metaphor that responds to the essence of your directed-to-me-comments, to confirm that I was gone, that I was paying no attention, that it was safe to broil me. Metaphor:
During World war II, it was the generally accepted skinny that the most merciless fighting men, the most ruthless and heartless warriors, the ones you didn't EVER want to go up against because they were not-quite-human, were the mountain Cossacks. Tales of their depredations apparently chilled the blood of even Hitler's elite corps. The most memorable (to me) of these parables, was the retelling of how the Cossacks crept into a Wehrmacht camp pitched at the edge of a forest, in the dead of winter, snow six or eight feet deep, something-below-zero conditions with a wind-chill freezing the stars themselves at double-digits below the line ... and the bivouac had been pitched in such a way that all the tents were grouped tightly, while inside those tents, the German troops were sleeping two to a bag, hugging each other, using each other's body-warmth just to stay alive.
It is said the Cossacks came in on their bellies, went under the tent canvas, and slit the throats of dozens of men. BUT ... they only slit the throat of ONE man in a sleeping-bag, so the one who awoke next morning found himself drenched in blood from his sleeping-buddy, whose throat was opened from mandible to mandible. Thus, they rendered inoperable not just those who had died, but all the others as well. Fear worked its wonders.
Why do I tell this anecdote?
You figure it out, Diana.
Diana . . .
Diana.
Yr. ALWAYS sapient pal, Harlan
Jay Smith-
Thanks Jay, I'm buying that book. My son, "Bobby The Agnostic", will no doubt want to read it too, cover-to-cover, with notes in the margin if I know him, in order to go out and further bait and enrage the mother of one his friends, who's a Jehovah's Witness. (God, I love that kid)
Re "The Site":
"The Site" is my very first attempt at designing a web site. I've only been using a computer for about a year and a half, and what little I know about web site design I picked up from various places on the internet. When I first started out I was so ignorant that I didn't even what was meant by the term "right click". That's why I'm so proud of me. Understand?
To be honest, I chose a good subject for a first attempt. The "celebrity" in question was at one time mega-famous, but as happened to a lot of people during the 1970's, by the 1980's drugs and alcohol had gotten the better of him, and his career went into serious decline. (He's clean & sober now, and has been for over decade, and he's working again, and I think he has a right to proud of himself for a lot of reasons, but anyway...)
There wasn't much in the way of competition in terms of the other fan sites dedicated to him. The best one out there (prior to my own efforts) is a huge, badly organized, difficult to navigate, confusing eyesore, mainly dedicated (in my opinion) to the web host's ego. It's glutted with page after ugly, difficult-to-navigate page of braggings about what a great pal he and this celebrity are. With lots of really lousy (someone kill the photographer) photographs. Picture after picture of The Man Himself and his beleagured-looking wife, being clung too thither and yon, by large numbers of crazed-looking and incredibly unattractive fans.
The second "best" site (prior to mine) is merely an on-line catalog of another of his fan's "Collection" of "Him" related memorabilia. This woman's got EVERYTHING. I think she might have dug through his garbage for old socks for chrissakes, it wouldn't surprise me.
So it's not that my site's all that great, really, but the rest of them are SO terrible. Like I said there wasn't much going on in the way of competition. This man deserves better. So I've tried to give it to him.
I was never a fan of his. Up until about eight months ago I hadn't given a single thought to him in over twenty five years, if I ever did. I couldn't have named more than three songs he wrote. I couldn't have told you if he was alive or dead. Now I'm something of an expert. And if I'm still not a fan of his singing, or much of fan of his music, I am now a fan of the man himself. When I get teased about this, which I have been, (and will be again) I ask my tormenters, "Just exactly how many Academy Awards have *you* won? How many Golden Globe Awards? How many of *your* songs (you probably haven't written ANY) have been sung by the likes of Frank Sinatra, Luther Vandross, Dolly Parton, Willy Nelson, and Barbra Steisand? (just to mention a very few) How many millions of hearts have *your* songs touched, and how many lives have *your* efforts changed? How many millions of dollars are *you* worth? How many fond and nostalgic memories does the mention of *your* name evoke? None? Nada? Zip? Then shut the fuck up." That's what I say.
I won't tell you who this celebrity is, but if you go visit my site, you'll right away say, "Oh yeah, I remember him!" And you'll smile, and you'll go digging through boxes of dusty old LP's for an album or two you probably still have of his, and you'll play some of his music, and you'll smile some more. Trust me, it's going to happen.
The only thing else I might want to say is that it looks to me from here like this man is one of the nicest people on Earth. And he's led a productive and useful and successful life. And again, He's NICE. Really, really nice. So please, do me a favor? If you MUST tease me about him, don't come back at me with what is now my son's famous last retort? "Yeah, but he's SHORT!" Okay? Because I'll just think your dumb.
The url for site is:
http://www.intothenight.net
Bye for now
Diana
Oh, you might not want to display this in front of small children.
I just received this in my e-mail, and I just had to share.
It's supposed to be a photo of a room in a haunted house. The idea is that if you stare at the photo long enough, you'll see the ghost of the woman who waited in vain for her husband to return from the civil war. You need to concetrate primarily on the table and chairs. Don't stare in one place for too long. You'll also want to turn up the sound as sometimes the moaning and muttering of the "ghost" can be heard. It's an interesting effect.
Here's the url:
http://home.attbi.com/~n9ivo/whatswrong.swf
Chuck
And, when it comes to Farmer's books, let's not forget VENUS ON THE HALFSHELL as Kilgore Trout. It's too bad something he said was misquoted or taken out of context, which Vonnegut found insulting, which led him to withhold permission for Farmer to write another Trout novel. Pant pant. It would have been fun.
Chuck
Jim:
Your comment on the other board left me amused and interested. For the record, you're correct about Judaism being the religious foundation for two of the big three fathers of modern psychiatry:
Freud: Jewish upbringing, but renounced the faithas an antagonistic atheist, dismissing religion as:
"...an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires."
Jung: Son of a Protestant minister, yet came to be more secular in his viewpoint of religious thought, thinking theology as a form of mythology, more in keeping with his professment of archetypes.
Adler: Jewish born, yet converted to Protestantism.
This is one goy who sits proud that this men strove to split the atoms of the psyche, leaving nuclear families to deal with the fallout created from conumdrums and emotional theatre created by penis envy, projection, individual psychiatry...Gentlemen, I salute you!
Now to a more pressing issue:
We've had Arrow using this product, and are pleased with the result:
http://tinyurl.com/4w82
Still have to brush and floss, but it does help to improve both his teeth, and his breath odor.
BOS
Diana -
Which site is this?
A book so good I stole it from my best friend. I feel no remorse for my crime, though I may use this link to replace it (after 10 years) with a fresh copy.
"Ken's Guide to the Bible" by Ken Smith (no relation)
Those who need a quick reference to all the fun problems, contradictions and insanity of Christianity, you may find your arsenal there. Go to Amazon.com and look it up. The URL is about sixty pages long, but it is worth the inspection.
rich said he couldn't get into _Left Hand of Darkness_. I read the whole thing and wasn't all that impressed. Her first three or four sf novels from the mid 1960s are even less impressive. But once I got to _The Word for World is Forest_, I was a lot happier (you'll recall it was LeGuin's submission to HE's Dangerous Visions, and it won a few awards). It's not the subtlest parable around, but quite imaginative.
Was it also rich who started a thread about books one could not get into? I don't often have that problem, because I rarely start books I can tell I'm not going to like. I've failed twice to finish _Gravity's Rainbow_ and Proust, but not because they weren't rewarding, but because they were so long and the library wouldn't let me keep them any longer.
I can recall reading _Steppenwolf_ in high school and about 75 pages in, thinking, "there's a lot going on here and I'm just not getting it, so I think I'll put this aside for a while." Unfortunately, I never got back to it, though I saw the movie with Von Sydow and ( * pant, pant *) Dominique Sanda, and read a number of other Hesses (_Narcissus and Goldmund_, _The Glass Bead Game_, _Siddhartha_, and _Beneath the Wheel_, in roughly descending order of enjoyment).
Jim Davis mentioned Lawrence's _Sons and Lovers_, I think. I had trouble with that one too; couldn't relate to all that violent ambivalence (he loved her/he hated her) until a bit later in my life. I liked _Women in Love_, of course, though I had a college course to help me along on that one. I think the one I liked the most was _The Rainbow_ -- very intimate and warm, I thought. You should also check out _The Man Who Died_ (aka _The Escaped Cock_), a very short and odd tale about Jesus's adventures after the resurrection, when his divine job is done and he can get on with being just a man.
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
My celebrity fan site just won its first Web Site Award! I'm so proud. (*sniff* I want to thank The Academy *sniff, sniff*)
Diana
BOS wrote"
"...vast numbers of rabbis engaged in sexual misconduct" "with...members of their congregations"
YA-HOO!!! From your mouth to God's ears, BOS...(one can only hope)
Here's a funny item for everyone who cares about good reading. At the University of pennsylvania-- where I live and work, more or less-- there's a controversy over a poem a student read at an MLK commenoration. In the poem, Carlos Gomez referred to University President Judith Rodin was a Nazi.
The story about it can be read at http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/01/24/3e30eeb6dfc36
Okay, so Rodin hasn't exactly been the most progressive administrator on the planet, and there are lots of things she did during her tenure that didn't endear her to me very much. Still,I'll give her high marks for her response to the poem, described in the article.
But what I find especially striking is this. Read the article. Read what young Gomez says about what he'd wanted to do, the values he wishes to stand for, and the samples of the poem that he wrote. Then come back to this note.
Okay, now did you notice what I'd noticed? Young Gomez seems utterly incapable of presenting an original thought or an interesting sentence. All of his commentary is either self-righteous cant, and his analyses have the whiff of received beliefs rather than simple truths.
And the poem sampled at the bottom reads like an undergrad's first try at an editorial, only broken up so it looks like free verse. There's no attempt to use the power of language-- it's as though young Gomez, like so many other coffeehouse poets, believes that the chanting of statements amounts to the same kind of verbal power that an Allen Ginsburg could summon. This is poetry in the same way that Barbara Kruger's an artist.
In other words, the kid sucks. Sad how bad artists get the attention, eh?
For an antidote, try
http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=1391
To BOS: Hey, I just recommended Farmer's "Riverworld" books as a decent exemplar of a fantasy novel on a newsgroup. So there. Nyaahh.
Re the SF Writer quiz. I tried jiggling some of the answers. And I found that it was possible to be ranked as Jerry Pournelle even when you said you voted for Ralph Nader. (The author says that Pournelle himself took the quiz, and was deemed Robert Heinlein.)
To the person who, after a few beers, becomes Alfred Bester: Be happy it stops at that. If you switched to heavy liquour, you might wind up being more like Alfred Bester than anyone would want. Best to aspire to his talent, and not to his capacity for ethanol.
DIANA WROTE:
"See? Nothing happened. I'm telling you it's cool. He's gone."
"The sound grew, and the lights ran across the faces of the consoles like heat lightning. The sound spiraled up till it sounded like a million metallic insects, angry, menacing."
" 'It's going to be bad this time,' Nimdok said."
P.S. THAT LAST POST (supposedly made by me) WAS REALLY MADE BY CHUCK THE GOLD-HEARTED RHINO
Diana
Diana, in response to Barney's:
"Harlan IS NOT A SCIENCE FICTION WRITER!!! Doesn't anybody pay attention around here?"
I've brought Thorazine, oleo, and a nice big butterfly net...I'm good to go.
Well, I call them all writers. Saves time and energy. Besides, most of what we would call the mainstream have, at one time or another, swam in the creek that would be called SF, the majority having done so without pissing in the waters.
Lynn: The question isn't who got there first, but we Catholics did start the franchise. Also, the Jews don't submit themselves to catechism and formal punishment for sin, be it physical or mental (I often think Orwell a Catholic: Thoughtcrime), with continued confession of all questionable activities before priests who often have more filth of sin on their souls than their parishoners, but have the vestments and ceremony to cover their tracks. As far as I'm concerned, the Jewish faith hasn't embraced guilt as we Catholics have; I think I'm going to hell for having written this...
Besides, we don't hear about vast numbers of rabbis engaged in sexual misconduct with young members of their congregations, do we?
Farmer: I remember best "Riders on the Purple Wage", "The Lovers", "Tarzan Alive" ("An Exclusive Interview with Lord Greystoke"), and "Sexual Implications of the Charge of the Light Brigade". A pity he had to fritter away some of his sizeable talent on the "Riverboat" franchise.
Me go now. Lots, lots of wandering "from the inner mind to..."
BOS (The REAL Bob Heinlein, married to Kurt Vonnegut. Think of the sex in that karass! Slamming Wampeters into that Tanstaafl Granfaloon!)
To Jim Davis:
Re:
"Now the SF quiz is telling me I'm Kilgore Trout. Should I be concerned?"
Yes Jim, this does indeed seem like a good reason to panic.
To Barney:
Re:
"I just thought I would head Harlan off at the pass on that one since suggesting Harlan was/is a skiffy writer twice in one day on his own board seemed like a way to invite lots of frogs and locusts into your life."
Of course you realize I wasn't the one who suggested Mr. Ellison was a skiffy writer, now don't you? Not that I think it would matter. I don't think Mr. E. reads the posts in here anymore. I think we could probably safely start saying all kinds of wierd shit about him if we felt like it with no fear of reprisal from him. His loyal fans would still defend him, but the Great Man Himself? Nope. He's gone. Finished. Finito. Done. Outta here. Go ahead try it. Say a bunch of stupid rude stuff about him and see what happens.
Try saying you find his writing "derivative". I'm not entirely sure why, but saying that about someone's writing is supposed to be insulting.
Try refering to Science Fiction as "Sci Fi". Or suggest he's past it, and no longer has what it takes to cut it, (add, "not that he ever really did") say he's resting on his moldy old laurels these days, so to speak, which is okay 'cause he's OLD...HEY! HEY, OLD GUY! YER OLD. OKAY? THAT'S WHAT YA ARE.YER JUST....OLD.
See? Nothing happened. I'm telling you it's cool. He's gone.
(strolls off singing, "Oh I'd love to be an Oscar Meyer weiner, that is what I'd re-e-e-eally like to be-e-e-")
Barney,
...and after the fourth, I discover that I've been always been Philip Dick and this life has existed only inside the martix of the test.
And then I drift off to dream of electric sheep
The quiz sounds fascinating...is there still time to participate?
I have the nasty feeling I'd be Philip K. Dick. I dunno.
If I was L. Ron Hubbard, being burned alive at the stake would suddenly seem very preferable.
Now the SF quiz is telling me I'm Kilgore Trout. Should I be concerned?
of course "rom" party instead of room party works in Pournelle's case but romm party, well, I'll never win at scrabble until they come out with a drinking game version, virgin, Virginia Wolfe, wolf is at my door, doors of perception, perscription wearing off...
- b
*** Jay *** 2 beers gives you a well stamped passport book and then kills you? How odd.
*** lonegungirl *** Well, yes, there are the Riverworld novels [with Twain and Sir Richard Burton and they have their moments to be sure] BUT there are also any number of novels with sex with aliens and WEIRD sex in general and guys dueling with their penises and carniverous beasts hiding in vaginas. Does this help explain your result? No? But now your really curious, right?
*** Diana ***
I just thought I would head Harlan off at the pass on that one since suggesting Harlan was/is a skiffy writer twice in one day on his own board seemed like a way to invite lots of frogs and locusts into your life.
and that was supposed to be "dividing" - not "diding", which I re-read as diddling, which if you think about a computer diddling zero is kind of funny and takes us right back to the weird sex in SF theme which seems to have taken over this post. Hmmm...
*** Chuck *** I assumed if you answered with all the over-the-top rude and right-wing questions you would yield Jerry Pournelle pissing in the sink of your hotel room at a con while making his way from romm party to room party and apologizing profusely, but nervertheless, still pissing.
- Barney
Chuck:
Well that's a relief. :=) I was all concerned, and crap.
You SAID it was a "nasty rumor" (or ssomething like that) And you forgot to put in the smilie face. So I wasn't sure. See?
Bye for now.
Diana
I'm Philip Jose Farmer. I forget what his books were like--something about dead famous people winding up reincarnated on a river?
I'm not sure what the dominating characteristic of his works are supposed to be...
Diana,
Relax, willya? I was just being wry. Maybe I was channeling Harry Reasoner. I was not insulted, nor was I upset. I don't insult that easily. We're okay.
Remember: Rhino. With a heart of gold.
And most of all, modest. ;^)
Chuck
To Brian:
"Further Thoughts I Had About Your Post While Waiting For My Son's Father To IM Me"
Brian wrote regarding Romantics:
"Very little data from the outside world alters their world-view"
That brought to mind my friend Donnelle. She's not a Romantic, she's a a schizophrenic. Sometimes very little data from the outside world alters her world view. Occasionally she thinks The Devil is in her closet with a time machine. Other times she thinks he's waiting in her next door neighbor's El Camino (but only if it's parked in the driveway) I've tried reasoning with her. I told her I figured His Satanic Majesty was most likely too busy to be hanging out anywhere near either of our houses. But she explains about the time altering capacities of that machine he travels around in and I usually change the subject after that. I have no idea what to say in response to these things. Usually I say, "I love you Donnelle" It doesn't change her mind about Satan, but it makes her feel better. Me too.
Bye for now.
Diana
Well, I'm Robert Heinlein too. Or Spartacus. Yes, I am Spartacus!
Seriously, though, I am Robert Heinlein.
No wait a second -- seriously, I sort of think the site operates along the same principles as the parody 'Ask Dr. Phil' site, which supplies random answers. Darn clever, anyway.
Now I've got to have a heart-to-heart with my Golden Age Flash Heroclix figure over his undue ogling of the Catwoman Heroclix. Sheesh.
Cheers, Jon
Although, I should point out that - after a few beers - I become Alfred Bester.
Chuck:
I'm truly sorry if in my efforts to pay you one of the highest compliments I can think to pay someone I inadvertantly insulted you.
The I Ching has this to say about "Modesty"
"It is the law of heaven to make fullness empty and to make full what is
modest; when the sun is at its zenith, it must, according to the law of heaven,
turn toward its setting, and at its nadir it rises toward a new dawn. In
obedience to the same law, the moon when it is full begins to wane, and
when empty of light it waxes again. This heavenly law works itself out in the
fates of men also. It is the law of earth to alter the full and to contribute to the
modest. High mountains are worn down by the waters, and the valleys are
filled up. It is the law of fate to undermine what is full and to prosper the
modest. And men also hate fullness and love the modest.
The destinies of men are subject to immutable laws that must fulfill
themselves. But man has it in his power to shape his fate, according as his
behavior exposes him to the influence of benevolent or of destructive forces.
When a man holds a high position and is nevertheless modest, he shines
with the light of wisdom; if he is in a lowly position and is modest, he cannot
be passed by. Thus the superior man can carry out his work to the end
without boasting of what he has achieved"
(Richard Wilhelm's and Cary F. Baynes translation "I Ching: Or, Book of Changes")
If this offends you, again, my sincere apologies
Diana
Okay, so I'm Gregory Benford. I'm okay with that. I found the questions rather limiting. I couldn't express my real self. I also tried to be a total asshole in another round, and came out Jerry Pournell. Really? Well, okay then. I'll stick with Benford.
There is a rather nasty rumor going around here that I'm humble. Let me set the record straight. What may be passing as humble pie is actually this: My ego has been stomped on, kicked and beaten with baseball bats. I have been worked over by experts. My ego has a thick hide that a rhino would envy. I just don't bruise that easily. I can take or leave most brickbats that people may land on me, and I snort, twitch my ears and go on about my business. If someone goes out of their way to get at me, or if someone goes after friends or family, THEN, I'll charge. You do not want to see me angry. Nobody has seen me REALLY mad.
Of course that may also be my medication.
Lynn,
Unfortunately, the person I spoke with is a kind of former relative. My late stepfather's sister. Fortunately, I don't bump into her very often. Picture a mixture of Minnie Pearl, Ayn Rand and Dale Gribble. She has a poodle that has had the vocal cords removed. Imagine a dog that sounds like it's whispering when it barks. Creepy.
Chuck
For those wondering at some of the odd results of the skiffy quiz, if you view the webpage source file it has this as a comment:
DISCLAIMER: Generally speaking, the answers that I attach to each writer
should not be construed as necessarily accurate or factual. When I have no
idea what the right answer is, I just make one up.
Barney wrote:
"Harlan IS NOT A SCIENCE FICTION WRITER!!! Doesn't anybody pay attention around here?
- Barney"
(Now that was clearly a cry for help and attention)
Barney? Guy? Look at me, will ya? I'm listening; okay man? It's gonna be alright. It's gonna be okay. I promise. Just come down from the ledge; please? You're making me nervous standing out there screamming like that.
You're not alone, Barney. We're all in this together, and we're here for you. I know it hurts. I can feel your pain. But it's going to get better. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but someday.
(Could somebody call the Fire Department so we can get a net under him?? I think he's gonna jump)
Hey Barney? At least no one's calling it Sci Fi? Right? Things aren't THAT bad. Yet.
Barney: (knocks herself up-side the head) DUH!!
Thanks for the humble reminder.
I just took that SF Writer's quiz (as if I'm any type of writer beyond my daily work and this website) and I appear to be Arthur C. Clarke. Quite odd, since I have yet to read a Clarke novel I've liked since Childhood's End....and that's a lot of Clarke novels. Then again, I loved The Light Of Other Days.....but that was really written by Stephen Baxter.
Hey, at least I didn't turn out to be Noam Chomsky. Now that would be some frightening science fiction!!
-TODD
On the skiffy quiz;
There is just no fucking way that my most truthful answers about my secret self yield Philip K. Dick as a match for my personality. These are perverse and random results. Or are they? It's as though I've fallen into some alternate SF'nal universe that appears to behave like the one I just left except the human perceptions are skewed and fascism and democracy are strangely muddled. And instead of lynching redneck assholes we... oh, I see. At least the crabgrass still "looks" like crabgrass
Oddly enough, when I answer the quiz as though I were Mark Twain I yield H.G. Wells - probably on the strength of the internationalist response. I don't know offhand if they ever met but Wells social utopianism would have been starry-eyed naive bullshit to Twain after age 45 and perhaps sooner.
If Ellison takes the test the server will start diding stuff by zero and the internet will implode because Harlan IS NOT A SCIENCE FICTION WRITER!!! Doesn't anybody pay attention around here?
- Barney
To Brian Siano:
Oh crap. Now you're asking me to think.
You're talking about a whole philosophy. All I was looking at was that someone said,
"she believes religion is a form of collectivist thought. She believes religion stresses group think, not individualist rights"
She had this whole "group-think" thing going herself. Maybe she believed that people like herself should be the ones who told the group-thinkers what to think? I don't know.
Religions, political groups, schools of philosophy, and etc? To me they all look like they offer the same thing. Some kind of pre-packaged, already assembled, "no-need-to-think-for-yourself", carbon-copied, prefabricated, "you just turn it on all the hard works been done for you" way of life. All questions answered in advance. No need to ask, just listen. Just agree. Just nod yer heads in unison. Sing in unison. Vote in unison. Worship in unison. Wear the team hat, the team colors, the team brain. And you'll fit in just fine.
I support the idea that people should try and think for themselves. Amazingly (or not) many of us end up coming to remarkably similar conclusions about a number of things I think are important. Seperately we end up in the same place, coming from entirely different directions.
Just because I believe as Ms Rand did, that, "religion is a form of collectivist thought" and that "religion stresses group think, not individualist rights" I don't assume that she and I came to the same *conclusions* about that observed reality. I don't know what her conclusions were.
You wrote:
"...as well all know, humans have a primieval response to power"
See now,I read that and right away, I thought, "I don't know about that" Just because you stated it firmly doesn't mean it's true. Because I figured (correctly) right away you were going to base your following arguments on that statement. But you hadn't supported the initial posit before launching into your "thuslies" (you know, A + B = M, *THUS* M = H, "thuslies")
I think when people join groups their thinking tends to narrow. That's been my observation. No matter how beautiful the originating Ideals may have been. When people join groups it looks to me like their thinking changes from, "Me, and then, Everyone Else", to "Us and, "THE OTHERS". From "I'm one, and yet I'm part of everything", to "Insiders & "Outsiders". From, "I think thus & so, what do you think?", to "We're right. THEY are wrong". I think it might be easier for people to demonize your enemies from inside a group.
Anyway. That's what I think. What do you think?
Diana
Alex Jay -
No, I'm not a woman, but I CAN tell you the story of the day my breasts stopped traffic. :)
To Diana, re your son's pro-war debate. I'd suggest that he read the recent columns by Christopher Hitchens. The pieces he's done that are available on the Web can be found at http://www.enteract.com/~peterk/
Diana also wrote, re Ayn rand, that:
"It sounds like she might have been a huge hypocrite. That doesn't make the parts of her philosophy that I agree with invalid. It just invalidates HER. Right?"
I think Rand was a hypocrite, but I don't think she even _saw_ any conflict between the ideals she professed and the inability to live by them. This may indicate that one really can't live by her philosophy... or it may indicate that _she_ couldn't.
As for whether it invalidates her philosophy, I think it's better to ask whether her philosophy is both reasonably consistent and consonant with the "real world." She sure worked to _make_ it consistent, but frankly, the idea of creating a way of living that's both totalistic and consistent is just plain _wrong_. (Consult Kurt Godel on this point.)
As for whether it makes sense in the real world, well, Rand sort of dodges that test completely. She's best regarded as a romantic, in that her world-view was governed more by grand passions, sweeping notions, and gut-level instincts. Such people, like Rousseau, and Rand, and Camille Paglia, are terrific fun to read, and can be a terrific source to regain some spirit in one's life.
But the problem with many Romantics is that they're governed by the oceanic surges of their own brain chemistry. It's all internal forces acting outward. Very little data from the outside world alters their world-view, and what logic that's applied is usually an attempt to create a totalistic world-view that can't really allow for the second-guessing of the grand passions.
And as well all know, humans have a primieval response to power. We both admire and fear power in very profound ways. In the Romantic, this gets magnified. When they admire power, then those who are powerful are seen as having the most desirable and admirable traits, and thus deserve their power. And usually, those who they resent for _not_ having power are recast as _sinister_ power-- insidious little vermin whose achievements are due to dishonesty and cleverness, and whose influence (however meager or marginal) is recast as all-powerful, encompassing, regimented, and smothering.
(Social Darwinism puts an interesting spin on this tendency. To the Social Darwinist, power rests in natural selection... so the results are mandated by science and nature. Those who flourish are not merely successful, they are _superior_, and those who fail (even after long success periods) _should_ fail. It's power-worship, but power is shifted to an impersonal force. Social Darwinism is, despite its scientific trappings, a classically Romantic theme.)
So when a Romantic tries to create some kind of political ideology or movement, there's a terrific likelihood that it'll become some overpowering model that cultivates both resentment of the powerless and worship of the powerful. The single most extreme example of this Romantic dialectic is Adolf Hitler. Here was a man who worshipped the power he saw in German mythology and Wagner's music, and who thrilled to the spectacle of gigantic achievements, buildings beyond the scale of ordinary men, and massive spectacles which absorbed the individual man into a grand tale of national destiny-- and who threw the aura of _sinister_ power upon his perceived enemies.
It's not hard to see this tendency in a lot of Romantic writers. Ayn Rand portrayed builders and capitalists as heroic superhumans, strong and smart and vibrant and lusty... and those who second-guessed their actions were conniving, dishonest vermin whose every action advertised their soul-sickness. Camille Paglia found it pretty easy to promote herself as a kick-ass feminist (despite her never having done _anything_ for women's rights), mainly because there was a receptive audience for tales of politically-correct Stalinoids who'd exercised sinister power over our universities.
So you have to ask yourself several things when evaluating an outlook like Rand's. Yes, it may speak to you. But does it have any compassion? Does it allow for those who disagree? Does it acknowledge that people have different lives, different concerns, and different agendas? If such ideas governed the society, who would benefit? Who'd get ground under? Is there any sense of irony?
Hrm...
I'm still Ayn Rand. Took the quiz again, and I'm still Ayn Rand.
Fother Mucker.
Oh well, I guess I can't fight fate, or at least internet quizzes.
---Peter
I too seem to be James Tiptree.
The folks who put that little test together obviously haven't read my writing...
But it was good for a chuckle.
--tr
Hey, thanks guys! Yes, Samuel Delany has an amazing beard! Joseph: you actually answered one of my questions because when I saw that he was black and that his name is spelled the same, I wondered if he might be related to the Delany sisters. I *did* love their book! Anyway, I'll see what the local library has to offer of Samuel's works. Apparently, he spent some time at Cornell rather recently, so they're bound to have a decent collection.
To Brian Siano:
"On the other hand... well, Rand herself was an authoritarian at heart, and the rest of her message was just a defense of power over those without it. I've pointed this out to Randroids occasionally-- her testimony to HUAC put her on the side of state power over independent minds, and her conduct with her coterie of loyal and unquestioning followers indicates a serve-me attitude often seen in figures like Ron Hubbard or Baghwan Rajneesh. They never notice the mismatch between her _words_ about freedom, and her loathing and contempt for those who don't have it"
It sounds like she might have been a huge hypocrite. That doesn't make the parts of her philosophy that I agree with invalid. It just invalidates HER. Right?
To John G.
I wasn't offended John G. I don't find atheism offensive. I don't think atheists are evil or anything, far from it, I just think that atheists are WRONG. So any life philosophies they expound or conclusions they come to are going to go nowhere in my mind. All that lovely well organized logical thinking is based on what I believe is the hugely false premise that there is no God.
Their thinking there's no God at all seems way less stupid to me than some of the shit people who do believe in various concepts of diety have come up with, by the way. Folks believe in some pretty odd and unpleasant and (pardon me for not being "P.C.) ridiculous things.
You can site me exceptions of genius in many faiths, great thinkers and apologists, (I've enjoyed C.S. Lewis's apologetics, and some of his wierd wierd novels too, for example) but I'll just turn around and point out to you that those people are *exceptions*.
But we're cool John G. No worries.
Diana
Oh, great. I'm so careful to spell Delany correctly that I manage to misspell "Samuel" as "Sameul."
*kicks a pebble in annoyance*
Frank Church
Selfishness is mans greatest ideal. Not selfishness, meaning man can commit crimes or be rude; but man should always strive for personal happyness before the happyness of a collective WE. This in her mind created Communist thought.
Capitalism is the greatest symbol or freedom. Creating profit and owning property were the highest of ideals. She believed in complete, unregulated Capitalism; no state intervention at all. Privatized to the point of military and police only. She was against minimum wages, and believed giving to charity was not noble. It was more noble to create jobs; which in turn creates prosperity.
Atheist and pro-Abortion. Fetuses or "Pre-life forms" had no rights, and therefore abortions were a solumn right. Fetus is property of mother until birth.
She is very anti-religion; she believes religion is a form of collectivist thought. She believes religion stresses group think, not individualist rights. She also believes Communism is a form of religion.
She thinks men are better than woman. Men build buildings and create ideas, while woman do little but watch men with envy in their eyes. She was self-hating to a point.
------------
-----------
Actually, isn't most Science Fiction actually "futurist fiction"?
Frank:
UH OH.
"she believes religion is a form of collectivist thought. She believes religion stresses group think, not individualist rights"
I'm afraid I totally agree with her on that one.
"How can anyone suggest a book defending the war in Iraq? It cannot be defended, and that's that. Don't make me put my foot down again. :-)"
NO, NO, NO.
My son's been "drafted" into taking the pro war side of a future class debate. He asked me to ask y'all for book suggestions to help him get some idea of what the pro-war-er's justifications are for their point of view. It's not a matter of whether or not he actually supports this point of view. He doesn't. He's going to have to handle it as an abstract. But having been stuck with needing to defend a point of view he completely disagrees with presently, he now wants to make the best of it. Now do you understand? :=)
Diana
Yet another internet service is getting hit for providing its users a forum, then saying it isn't responsible for the content provided:
"LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- A Los Angeles man who says he was libeled in eBay Inc.'s "feedback" section of its Web site has sued the online auction house for refusing to remove statements he says damaged his reputation."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/01/24/ebay.lawsuit.reut/index.html
I'll add a slightly sympathetic comment about Ayn Rand here. The people who burned Rand into their brains read her when they were in their eraly teen years. I didn't read her then, but I remember seeing her on the Tomorrow show, smoking up a storm and denouncing religion as nonsense. I liked her, actually.
But I didn't read anything by her until after years of exposure to Libertarians and Randroids. I don't think it'll surprise anyone to hear bust her talents as a writer. It's not that she's _bad_, because she did seem to tap into some odd power in her narratives, and few writers really seem to do that without some kind of premeditation. So I'll give her credit for being pretty honest about what she wanted from fiction. And let's face it: thanks to the trickle-down effect of her followers' rantings, most people misunderstand capitalism through the lens of her writing.
But it's just not very good fiction. I'd always thought it was appropriate that her books have that Art Deco artwork on the cover, because her characters and plots are _precisely_ as nuanced and human as those Deco-like figures from Soviet posters, where the superior man wields a hammer to break the chains of oppression. It really does share a lot with dramas created by fundamentalist Christians-- the characters are mere types, their motivations are simple, and forced by the overwhelming moral schema presented. If a character does a bad thing, it's because his soul is sick, not because he's merely flawed or human.
And there is that wonderful loopiness to her stories. Really, can you imagine a whole city getting worked up over what's written in the _architecture_ column? Christ, that's barely better than writing the fucking _bridge strategy_ column. The world's millionaires and geniuses abdicate from the world, and it plunges into chaos? Sure, happens all the time. A man who blows up a building, ruining several million dollars' worth of someone else's property, and is allowed to deliver a week-long speech in a courtroom-- and is _acquitted_?
But as I said, people coming across this stuff at the right age can be strongly influenced by it. And considering that some of Rand's ideals include developing your own opinions, striving to improve your lot in life, and avoiding the nonsense of religion, this isn't an especially bad thing.
On the other hand... well, Rand herself was an authoritarian at heart, and the rest of her message was just a defense of power over those without it. I've pointed this out to Randroids occasionally-- her testimony to HUAC put her on the side of state power over independent minds, and her conduct with her coterie of loyal and unquestioning followers indicates a serve-me attitude often seen in figures like Ron Hubbard or Baghwan Rajneesh. They never notice the mismatch between her _words_ about freedom, and her loathing and contempt for those who don't have it.
You want embarassing? I got distracted for a second, and the next thing I know(great clanking Klono, Clarissa!) I'm E.E. "Doc" Smith. Anybody want my Lens?
It's a fun site, but it's a bit weird. I tried it again and got a Jerry Pournelle, even though I chose the "Ralph" presidential nomination. That's a head scratcher. An impish AI....
Finder, I have *no* doubt that Rand would be exceptionally hard to deal with, but the only thing I read about an AS screenplay was(IIRC) in the Branden bio. Sterling Silliphant had done a version that met with her approval around the time of "Rich Man, Poor Man", and she liked the miniseries format.
Diana, I only mentioned the atheist component of Rand since you had mentioned it in regards to Nietzsche. No offense or linkage implied, of course.
Obviously bored: Nothing going on here, except my making money.
Chris: Olaf Stapleton wrote the good "Star Maker", "Last and First Men", and the classic "Odd John". Fine writer, if a bit long winded.
BOS
Diana, Ayn Rand is good for a laugh; and if you find entertainment in angering yourself for no good reason, then she is the writer for you. But calling her a philosopher is like calling Michael Bolton the king of soul. Her philosophy is social-Darwinistic tripe, without manners or ethics. Her beliefs in a nutshell:
Selfishness is mans greatest ideal. Not selfishness, meaning man can commit crimes or be rude; but man should always strive for personal happyness before the happyness of a collective WE. This in her mind created Communist thought.
Capitalism is the greatest symbol or freedom. Creating profit and owning property were the highest of ideals. She believed in complete, unregulated Capitalism; no state intervention at all. Privatized to the point of military and police only. She was against minimum wages, and believed giving to charity was not noble. It was more noble to create jobs; which in turn creates prosperity.
Atheist and pro-Abortion. Fetuses or "Pre-life forms" had no rights, and therefore abortions were a solumn right. Fetus is property of mother until birth.
She is very anti-religion; she believes religion is a form of collectivist thought. She believes religion stresses group think, not individualist rights. She also believes Communism is a form of religion.
She thinks men are better than woman. Men build buildings and create ideas, while woman do little but watch men with envy in their eyes. She was self-hating to a point.
------------
How can anyone suggest a book defending the war in Iraq? It cannot be defended, and that's that. Don't make me put my foot down again. :-)
-----------
Actually, isn't most Science Fiction actually "futurist fiction"?
I"m somebody named Olaf Stapledon. I know nothing about him but given my fondness for all things Scandinavian, I like being an Olaf.
WAR AND PEACE: It's great. I'm not just saying that to try to sound smart. But it did take me about 250 pages before I "got into it." And I learned later on that most smart people avoid the tedious final 50 pages which are just an epilogue in which Tolstoy explains the philosophy behind everything he just wrote. But War and Peace kicks ass - truly it does. Just be patient with it.
BOS: You know, there actually IS a www.fuckoffanddie.com. Not a huge surprise, I guess.
COOKIE: If you can get a hold of it, I think the best introduction to Delany's work would be DISTANT STARS, a trade paperback collection of his short stories published some time ago. Failing that, his book THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION is a short but engrossing read, as Jim pointed out. The big books like DHALGREN or TRITON might be a little too much to start out with; you could drown.
JAY: What? You AREN'T a woman using a male nom de plume?
Cookie,
Also, as an interesting point of trivia, Sameul Delany is the nephew of the late Bessie and Sadie Delany, otherwise known as "The Delany Sisters," subjects of the book "Having Our Say: The Delany Sisters 1st 100 Years." Also, he's got a rocking beard, as you can see here:
http://tinyurl.com/4uyg
Hey, other people can tell you better about his fiction. I just figured I'd toss in something else...
Regards,
Joseph
(Stares at the time BOS gave)
Nope, that isn't working, either. Look--it's not changing at all.
COOKIE: If you're unfamiliar with Delany's writing, start with his novels from the 60's, such as NOVA or THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION. (His short-stories from the same period are top-flight, too.) His work from the 70's on is a little too obscure for my taste, but those early New Wave books still hold up. (He also wrote a cool memoir of his early life called THE MOTION OF LIGHT IN WATER, which explains the mindset of the 60's as well as anything I've ever read.)
Jay:
At the tone, the time will be 27:93, on the 48th of Juneteenth, Levendis Standard Time (bong!)
Rich:
Flaubert, Proust, Marx, Rand and Gertrude Stein...most of Aldous Huxley's works are torture for me.
"Ellison is NOT science fiction, as if you guys didn't know..."
Who cares if he is or isn't? I don't ghettoise any writer (and that's what I call M. Ellison, as I do Atwood, Amis (both Kingsley and Martin), right on to Zamyatin. Classification is for libraries, writers are for readers.
Le Guin: The Norton anthology really cooled my respect for her. I felt it to be somewhat revisionist in its manner of selecting tales for publication, the introduction of the book containing a thinly veiled attack against perceived misogyny targeting women writers in SF's early history, and was angered that fine early tales by Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke and Bester were ignored, in order to showcase lesser, more politically correct authors. I love the Tom Disch tale where he suggested submitting a pudding recipe instead of the short story Le Guin requested, stating that he felt the piece requested wasn't of sufficient quality.
BOS
A BOOK I CAN'T GET INTO:
War & Peace by Leo Tolstoy...so far, no can do. I've got a copy. I take it down from the shelf from time to time. I've read the first three pages. I put it on the shelf again. There it sits.
Maybe someday.
Diana
Oh this is just wrong...
I'm James Tiptree, Jr.
No offense to Ms Sheldon, but...still a few bugs in the system, I'm afraid.
Oh, and Cindy: How's the ear? That's a drag. I hope you suffer no permanent hearing loss.
I'm Samuel R. Delany, too. I'm ignorant of Delany, but after some cursory looking around, I plan to read some of his books. Sounds like interesting stuff. I read an interview with him and I want to read more of what he has to say. You folks have any particular recommendations?
Eric: I wondered if HE would end up as HE, too! :)
Hey, does anyone have the time? My watch is on the blink.
I don't agree with much of what Andrew Sullivan writes, but his evisceration of a wrong-headed and inaccurate Rolling Stone article--that claims 25% of newly HIV-infected gay men contracted the virus on purpose--is right on the money. Shame on Rolling Stone for printing this piece-of-crap excuse for "investigative" journalism. (Remember when RS wasn't a joke? Seems like a lifetime ago.) Here's Sullivan's article: http://www.salon.com/opinion/sullivan/2003/01/24/rolling/index.html
RICH: Aw, stop whining, and ACCEPT your LeGuiness. I hear there's a grass hut that needs thatching, ya hippy. (I love LeGuin's stuff, myself, though some claim her recent work has degenerated into Bedtime Stories for the Politically Correct. M. John Harrison gave a tepid review for her latest short-story collection, I believe.)
As for authors I've never been able to get into . . . there are some books that, try as I might, I can never finish. WOMEN IN LOVE by D.H. Lawrence, for example. Though I've read and enjoyed other works of his, like SONS AND LOVERS, this one novel--the one universally considered his best, natch--is very hard going. There's just something too inchoate about the writing for me.
To Lynn:
"WITCH. WITCH. BURN THE WITCH!!! BURN HER!!!"
Just kidding :=)(I know that's really not all that funny)
Re: "On Being A Witch":
You left out,
D) Been there, done that, moved on...(thanks for the memories)
You weren't exaggerating about some people getting crazy when they find out you're Wiccan, and before they find out you're also just folks. I was living in the Deep South, openly Wiccan (at the time)I'd return home from work on occasion to find Bible quotes & threats carved into my front door, and had to deal with anonymous threats to me and my employers (things like "Tell the witch she's been warned" "and "Leave while you still can") and my child being called "demon spawn" by angry-eyed strangers.
Anyway, there's much I find good in the belief system. ("Do what thou will, and harm ye none". Amen to that)
I found that the Wiccans themselves were just like the rest of humanity, a mixed-bag of personality types, and life styles, and decency levels. There did seem to be a higher percentage of well read and intelligent people amongst them than in the average crowd, though. A lot of them I met were "biblio-philes...
I'M SAMUEL R DELANY (not really)
To John G.
I'm not an atheist. Ms Rand was/is entitled to her own opinions. My friend (Jeri) has told me for years that I might enjoy reading Ayn Rand, but I think that comes out of the fact that she sees me as an individual. Which I don't think is the same as being an individual*ist*. Any philosophical similarities between my world view and any other "school of thought" is just proof to me that great minds think alike. :=)
Just because some of what I say I suspect is true is simililar to what some defined philosophical body has concluded is true is no reason to assume I embrace their "ism" entirely. For example,the fact that I state that I'm not an atheist (I'm not) is no reason to assume that I've adopted any organized (or chaotic) religion as my own (I haven't)
Bye for now
Diana
John G. - I seem to recall - and damned if I remember where I read it - that an early attempt to adapt "Atlas Shrugged" to film while Rand was still alive failed specifically because she objected to having any of John Galt's epic (and damnably tedious) speech altered or edited. Great for her philosophical views - but really, really bad for running time. ("Tonight on the WB, we present "Atlas Shrugged", Part 21: John Galt Addresses The Nation, Part 16")
Do you think if Ellison took the survey, he'd be...Ellison?
David,
Yeah, that was me that was whining. I actually haven't read LeGuin. I tried to read Left Hand..., but couldn't really get into it. I don't know. I just don't really read a lot of science fiction (Ellison is NOT science fiction, as if you guys didn't know) and I'm not even sure if LeGuin is science fiction or not 'cause I just couldn't make it through the damn book.
And any responses about how I'm missing out, damn fine literary genius, etc. just goes over my head. Couple of other writers that are damn fine writers, but just don't CONNECT with me in any way are LeCarre and Updike. Just can't do it. People tell me they're good. I find the sentences fascinating and astute and any other fine compliment one could give them, I just_don't_connect_with_them_as_writers.
Anyone else have a writer that is a fine writer, but you just don't connect with? It's a chore to read their books, for whatever reason? Or, am I just completely fucked in the head on this one?
Alright, you Faux Bobs, this is it; MI suits with full pocket nukes at twenty paces...Die, bugs die...Who wants to live forever?..Long, put yer goddammed hand down!
BOS (the Real Heinlein: I was there first!)
Great survey! I loved the possible reponses. I was Heinlein, to my huge surprise.
I don't suppose any of you are in the distribution area of the Oregonian, but I got some nice exposure in this morning's Arts and Entertainment section, p. 31. I'm a featured "Film Freak" and get to talk about my favorite movies. Of course, it's mainly another chance to plug my book.
The text is here:
http://www.oregonlive.com/video/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1043153719265960.xml
but it doesn't include the nifty photo that's in the paper.
Oh my god.
I'm Robert Heinlein.
I'm sure many of you had the same problem I had trying to choose between two or more options under several of the questions. I found the last one (half empty or half full?) to be the hardest: I thought all three choices were pretty equally valid . . . and that's the way I am in life, too! (I chose the first one -- nearly brimming, I think.)
Was it rich who was complaining about being Ursula K. LeGuin? I've only just started reading her stuff, fairly systematically, in the last year. Still can't say her work is all that much to my taste (which runs more to Bradbury and Ellison and Stephenson and Gaiman), but I suspect you'd have a tough time finding someone more intelligent and worldly in sci fi these days (and I also suspect Harlan might agree, although he knows a lot more sf writers, and knows them personally, than I; I'm just going by their work and rep).
Jeeeezzzzus H Crisco pomaded into my scalp, sculpted to look like the Devil's Tower with Richard Dreyfuss hovering over my head with a trowel muttering under his breath about a hidden homoerotic desire for the bod of Francois Truffault, here's the SF author I turned out to be...
Robert A. Heinlein....
TANSTAAFL, YOU GODDAM HIPPIES!!!! GROK THIS!!!!
Could be worse...I could've been Alan Dean Foster...
BOS
I'm Gregory Benford... which frightens me. I've never read any of his stuff.
Well could be worse. I could be Weis & Hickman....
FAQ
Hey, where exactly is this science fiction writer's name site? Could somebody give me the url? I'll be bored later, and could use a laugh.
Christ, what if I turn out to be M. Ellison?
BOS
Faisal:
I don't know if I could be of any help to you, due to my being Canadian rather than an American, but, if nationality is of little relevance, contact me with your questions at:
moebiuslooped@hotmail.com
I'd be happy to be of service. You might have to wait a day or two, but I'd give you what I've got.
Jay: Christ, I'd about split a gut over your "www.read thedamnbook.com" post. Is that anything like the site www.fuckoffanddie.com? Your little post got my day off right, especially considering I got to officiate a spat between two figure skating coaches I happily refer to as "Frasier and Niles".
Wicca: I don't know enough about the practice, except what I've discovered through perusal of a few articles, so precious little opinion on its merits or shortcomings shall come from me. However, I've always smiled at the tacit acceptance of our western societies' protected freedom of Judeo-Christian religious practice, and how it seems to invariably lead to covert persecution of other forms of faith, out of some smug self-righteousness.
Barney: Might I suggest "Feminist Thought - A More Comprehensive Introduction" by Rosemarie Putnam Tong? It's a fairly good overview of philosophical thought taken from the feminine perspective.
Please, folks, no more Rand. It hurts my head, okay?
Now, back to work. Heigh-ho, heigh-ho...Could somebody get these goddam dwarves out of my way?
BOS
I'm Kurt Vonnegut.
So it goes.
Re Alex's comments about Mumia Abu-Jamal. My position's similar to Alex's actually. Frankly, I think Mumia's guilty. It's not easy to determine precisely what happened that night. But, if Mumia were completely innocent, one would imagine that a) Mumia would have provided a detailed account of his side of the story _much_ sooner than he did, and b) his brother, a witness at the scene, would also have done so. There may be legal reasons for their behavior, but I'm not aware of them.
Also, the evidence of Mumia's being framed strikes me as insubstantial. Yes, the Philly police are known to have fabricated evidence against a lot of people. And someone like Mumia found at the scene of a cop-shooting would certainly have enjoyed the worst aspects of the Philadelphia criminal justice system. But I haven't seen any plausible explanations for the events of that night outside of Mumia's working himself into a lather, accosting Faulker during an arrest, and probably exchanging bullets with him.
My own opinion on this is that Mumia is probably guilty, and was probably railroaded to some degree. But he has served more than enough time in prison, much more than other murderers, so a case could be made for releasing him on that basis. I'd have some problems with that-- for one thing, it'd be nice if he'd express some contrition over Faulkner's murder, since I'm presuming he's guilty-- but I wouldn't be too upset.
If I had my druthers, I'd commute his sentence to life in prison. This isn't simply because I'm opposed to the death penalty. It'd take all of the steam out of the Mumia case on all sides. Most of the Mumia supporters-- many of whom strike me as idiots and demagogues would have a lot of wind taken from their sails. And Mumia's opponents-- the ones who portray him as some kind of mad-dog mastermind, a black Charles Manson with dreadlocks, who call for the death penalty so Faulkner's widow can cream over the spectacle-- would have to shut the fuck up as well.
And as others have pointed out, Mumia's not exactly the bst poster-child for the death penalty. Look, he's a decent writer, but the issue of his actual guilt or innocence is not certain. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of people facing the death penalty who _can_ be proven innocent, and I'd rather that attention be paid to those far-less-media-appealing souls.
Someone out there, please tell me this is a joke.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=496&e=5&u=/ap/20030124/ap_on_en_tv/people_jerry_springer
Fuck it, we're dead. Mankind's going to destroy itself long before summer rolls around. And I was SO looking forward to FREDDY VS. JASON...
Hee, hee--I'm Samuel R. Delany.
(The link is here, by the way: http://gning.org/skiffy.html )
Cool.
I'm Hal Clement.
Cool.
Ok, I musta done something wrong on that goofy science fiction writer quiz. It says I'm Ursula K. LeGuin.
But, I don't wanna be Ursula K. LeGuin.
Alex and Jon; thanks for the heads-up on Rand parodies. Both of the Ruff novels at my local library are checked out--I wonder if some other lurker here beat me to them. That's a good sign, in any case.
I actually think quite highly of Rand, but even I have to admit that other than The Fountainhead her fiction is uh, not great.
And while there was news of an Atlas Shrugged miniseries being put together by (memory may fail me here) TBS or TNT, it's apparently off, now. If nothing else, I would love to see an entire 2-hours plus episode of an actor giving "the speech"--and that would be an edited version at, what, 400 words a minute.
There's also a great parody of Atlas Shrugged( as well as many other things, like Scientology) in the "Illuminatus" books by Wilson and Shea--great books, by the way--if anyone's interested. From the description of the Ruff books it sounds like he's in the same vein as Wilson.
Diana, if it matters to you, Rand was a stone cold atheist. Her chief acolyte, Leonard Peikoff, put together a pretty good book on her worldview, "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand", that if nothing else ties together a lot of her non-fiction writing.
Diana, BOS,
Go watch City of God. I sound like a Mirimax whore but check out http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-city24f.html for a review of the pic. I would love to have a DoP who shot like that, I would love to EDIT like that. Screw it, the people who made this film should be congratulated. The directing of the kids alone is superb and I have to go find a copy of the novel.
BOS - I've been involved in various youth based media projects and am currently researching a piece on sex offenders particulary in ethnic minority communities. Your experiences on rehabilitations makes me want to ask you a few question for background purposes on general rehabilitation prgrams in the States. Can we correpond off the board? My email is faq at IC24.net
All the best.
FAQ
Damn, damn, damn.
I was REALLY hoping to meet Lawrence Block today and get his new book signed, but the American Library Association's midwinter meeting isn't an open convention, and I don't think I want to pay $25 for the Exhibits Only badge--I'll be paying $25 just for the privilege of paying $25 for the book, and it's not as if I'd get the chance to say anything more than, "Thanks for the enjoyment."
And all his other area signings are way too far away for me to hit.
Damn, damn, damn.
(Now I'll just have to assuage my disappointment by buying two or three or fifty books at the local library booksale ...)
P.A. BERMAN: Yes, give SEWER ... a try. It's a very different feel from FOOL; and a lot more compactly written and plotted. I found FOOL okay, but I never was a rabid Tolkienite. Besides, the fantasy-myth-at-dorms-at-the-end-of-the-sixties was done better by Pamela Dean, in her TAM LIN.
DAVID, DIANA: The Mumia case is well-known to me, and I'm agin it, for a couple reasons. Mumia is supposed to have shot Officer Daniel Faulkner because Faulkner was beating on abu-Jamal's brother--yet said brother never testified to that fact. Further, Mumia's supporters piss me off far more than the man himself ever could--and not because a great majority of them are French. Mumia has become a T-shirt, an antiestablishment icon about whom most who parrot the "Free Mumia" chants know nothing. More to the point, they refuse to discuss the issue, happy instead to simply class it as a racist example of The Man and The Establishment keeping the downtrodden down and trodden. They won't listen, they won't ponder, and they will scvarcely draw breath to let someone with a viewpoint which may be even slightly different than theirs get a word in.
(Interestingly, the most intelligent debate I ever heard on the case was between Tome Morello, the guitarist/singer of the band Rage Against The Machine, and Maureen Faulkner, the slain policeman's widow. Even more interestingly, said debate was on The Howard Stern show several years back. And no; I'm not kidding--it shocked me, as well.)
The shame of it is that Abu-Jamal was a fair to decent writer before he joined MOVE and started to self destruct at the beginning of the Eighties ...
PETER: I did a search on the "science-fiction writer" thing and took the quiz myself: I'm Isaac Asimov, apparently. Good Lord; I WISH.
BRIAN: Yup; the Daniel Faulkner Memorial Highway is a length of Roosevelt Blvd (U.S. 1) about three miles straight north of me. As for me, I think Mumia a cunning jailhouse lawyer who has been made an icon mostly without his doing and is not at all unhappy about that situation.
And I DO think he is a murderer.
By the by: Plug the word "Mumia" into Google. After you run past six pages of links (sixty "hits" or results), you'll realize that only four of the links have NOT been pro-Mumia--and three of those are buried on the sixth page.
The best article I've seen on the whole shebang was done by a contributing editor to "The Nation" for "Mother Jones", and can be found at http://www.motherjones.com/reality_check/mumia.html
Do I think Mumia deserves another trial? No.
Do I think he should GET one? Yes, if only because I believe he will be found guilty again, and that that will silence SOME of the Free Mumia crowd.
Jim:
I'm totally falling asleep, but here's a recipe...something a tinsy bit more appetizing, maybe
Ham and Egg Pastry
with Bernaise Sauce
Ingredients:
1 sheet frozen puff pastry
10 eggs
a little cream (optional)
1/4 cup parsley flakes
salt & pepper to taste
1/8 teaspoon garlic salt
6 thin slices of cooked ham
(substitute "long pig" for ham if prefered)
1 bag country style hashbrown potatoes
orange slices for garnish
parsley for garnish
Bernaise Sauce
Frozen pastry sheet can be thawed in refrigerator overnight.
Cut pastry in six even squares. Put on cookie sheet sprayed with non-stick spray. Cook at 400 degrees for about 12 minutes or until browned. While pastry is baking, cook hashbrown potatoes in large frying pan with 2 Tablespoons of oil. Season to taste. Divide potatoes into six patties. Place ham slice on plate-cover. Keep in warmer or put in microwave to warm before use. Combine eggs, parsley flakes, salt, pepper, garlic salt, and a little cream. Whisk all together. Scramble in frying pan till done.
To assemble on plate, cut orange slice only 1/2 way and twist. Lay on corner of plate. Add parsley leaves on side of orange twist. Lay potato patty towards right side of plate. Place puffed pastry on top left corner of plate. With small spoon, press center of puffed pastry to make a well. Place one slice of ham in center of pastry and overlapping sides. Spoon eggs into center of ham. Drizzle Bernaise sauce over egg, ham and puffed pastry. (I like to drizzle Bernaise sauce all over plate and potatoes for added decor).
Serves: 6
Bernaise Sauce
1/2 cup white wine vinegar
5 shallots, minced
2 T. minced fresh tarragon
1/2 tsp. white pepper
4 egg yolks
1/2 cup boiling water
1 cup warm clarified butter
salt
1 Tbsp chervil, minced (optional)
Combine vinegar, shallots, 1 Tbsp tarragon, and pepper in saucepan. Bring to boil and cook, stirring constantly until liquid is almost totally evaporated. Remove saucepan from heat and let cool a few minutes. Add egg yolks one at a time, beating constantly with wire whisk; add the water and blend well; Put saucepan over very low
hear (or to be on the safe side, over hot water double boiler style) and heat sauce again, beating constantly. When sauce has become creamy, remove from heat and let cool slightly. Add clarified butter gradually, beating gently. The butter must be at the same temperature as the egg mixture. Strain sauce through sieve if desires. Season with salt to taste and remaining tarragon and chervil. Sauce should have consistency of mayonnaise
Bon appetit, gentlemen
Diana
Brian:
Thanks for the url regarding Mumia Abu-Jamal. I'm going to have to go back and read some more tomorrow, I'm too tired to deal with any more right now. All I can say, from what I've read so far is, "holy shit".
Jim Davis
Re:
"I dunno--didn't Harlan write "A Boy And His Dog" 'cause he hates women?"
I heard he LOVES women. Especially with bernaise sauce.
Diana
DIANA, JAY:
I dunno--didn't Harlan write "A Boy And His Dog" 'cause he hates women?
(I'M JOKING, OKAY? I'M ONLY JOKIN--EEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!)
(Weeks later, when the police break down his study door, they find nothing except a small pile of bone and ashes next to a computer screen, which displays the following: "Bird Was Here" (in blinking, boldface 72 point Copperplate Gothic), and a detailed recipe for a bruschetta-and-limburger batter pudding. The first is clearly the signature of the infamous Cordwainer Bird, who has, once again, wreaked his revenge on another cultural philistine; the second, however, is simply insane. Who the hell would eat a bruschetta-and-limburger batter pudding, anyway?)
DIANA, BERMANATOR, CINDY, ALEX JAY, RICH, CHUCK (did I forget anyone?):
Thanks for the congratulations, kind wishes, links to articles, and recipes for Ramen. Don't get TOO amped, though--I need to go back to school to get my degree, so the molding of young, fresh, pliant brains into twisted simalacra of my own won't be happening any time soon. Still, your words mean a lot to me. Here's hoping I can live up to them.
BERMANATOR wrote (!): "Tell me more: What brought this on? I forget what you do for a living now? What subject area? Grade level? How do you plan to prep for this (are you going for a Masters? what degree program?)"
What brought this on? Hmmm . . . a mid-life crisis five years early? The anticipation of being able to pontificate in typical crazed fashion, with an adoring bunch of fresh-faced kids accepting it as Holy Writ? Seriously, Paula (I know you hate your slave name, but allow me to use it this once), without going into tiresome detail that will bore the bejeezus out of everyone, let's just say that the past couple of years have been, in personal matters, a time of crisis for me. I'm not bitching or moaning, but I can honestly say I now know what it's like to hit bottom, emotionally speaking. And when that happens, there are two options: either stick your feet in the loam and kick back up to the surface, or open your mouth and drown. I've elected to kick. In practical, real-life terms, that entails finally Doing Something Of Worth For The General Population--and what qualifies better than teaching?
And, yeah, I've always harbored a Mr. Chips-style fantasy of opening some poor kid's mind to the joys of learning. I'm sure the System will break me of that notion somewhere down the line, but it's a nice one to have, in the meantime. Besides, I like kids, and even consider them to be *gasp* actual human beings worthy of respect. Dammit, Berman, I'd be a good teacher, and would work harder at it than anything else I've ever done. The need's there, I'm clearly deranged enough to want to do it, so why not?
(Ooh boy, let me tell ya, is the need ever great in my neck of the woods. I live in Florida, which is dead last in almost every educational criterion you can think of: student-to-teacher ratio, percentage of graduates going on to college, school budgets . . . you name it, we're scraping the bottom. How bad are things? The last election saw the overwhelming passage of a class size amendment, which the politicians (including Jeb Bush) pissed and moaned about, though if they'd done their damn jobs to begin with, the thing wouldn't have been necessary. If I had kids of my own, I'd probably put them into a private school, which is heartbreaking for a public-school graduate like me to admit.)
My job? I work at a local performing arts center. It's fun, with some pretty interesting perks (including accidentally seeing Tori Amos naked--can't say I'm a fan of her music, but the classy way she handled an embarrassing situation made me a fan of HER), but it's not what I want to do for the rest of my life. What would I like to teach? English and/or History, preferably to High School or Junior High kids. As for prepping, I need to go back and get my bachelor's degree (I dropped out in my Junior year, mostly for financial reasons), and then, most likely, continue with a master's. This is going to take a few years, obviously, so I don't anticipate starting a regular teaching gig until my late 30's. And you know what? That's just fine with me, because if I'd set out on this path a decade or more earlier, I'd have done a piss-poor job of it. Sometimes, it's better to wait.
As for advice . . . hey, I'll take anything you want to toss my way. I'll e-mail you MY e-mail address, and you can have at me. I'm very fuzzy on the whole certification megillah, so whatever you can tell me will be very much appreciated.
Hierophantically yours,
Jim
P.S. Hey, you live in New York, right? You going to I-Con?
Nothing much to add on Ayn Rand that hasn't been said before, probably.
But for those interested in the Mumia Abu-Jamal case, I recommend consulting the casefiles at http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/mumia/ Especially recommended is the piece titled "Guilty and Framed."
But the case really is one of the touchiest and most divisive in Philadelphia history. I know a number of people who've pulled for Mumia's release, or at least a retrial. And when I get a steak sandwich at Gino's in South Philly, I get to see signs commemorating Daniel Faulkner, the policeman "murdered by Mumia Abu-Jamal," and there's a stretch of highway in the northeast named after him. (If I recall, it's not far from Alex Berman's home.) There are people who believe Mumia to be as innocent as a newborn babe, and framed by the Philly cops for his journalistic investigations, and there are those who believe him to be a vicious, amoral killer for whom there is no penalty horrible enough.
Chuck~ re: Bible-toting idiots
It has been my experience as a practicing witch that I meet three kinds of people: A) the ones that *know* what you are, you baby-eating, devil-worshipping demon spawn; B) the ones that don't know what you are and frankly couldn't care less; and C) the ones that don't know but might be interested in hearing what you have to say if you're buying the coffee.
The B's can stand a teensy weensy bit of education, if you can fit it in a ten second sound bite (which generally goes something like "nature religion that believes in both a Goddess and a God"). The C's get the more in depth explanation.
The A's (which is what you got) you can not reason with. I believe our patron uses the term "arrogant stupidity" and advises against tangling with them. The ones that *know* what a witch is and what she does, well... you'll never change their mind except by being ::GASP:: normal. I turned several heads so hard I think their false teeth fell out when, after working at the school district for 10 weeks, I appeared on a local news station with a few of my friends, giving an interview on Hallowe'en and witchcraft. (Of the 100+ people who frequented our community center, only seven of us felt safe enough to give the interview. In fairly liberal central California, how sad is that? ) And the old biddies actually had to confess that I was *likable* and a productive, tax-paying, contributing member of society who walked and talked just like they did, had the same problems, and the same doubts & fears. It was just being normal that changed their opinion of what the "Good Book" says about "witches".
So to answer your question, there is no soundbyte answer that can convert them to our side, but I do give you a gold star for trying.
I really appreciate the fact that you'd do that for us.
L.
Chuck:
Selena Fox, of Circle Sanctuary, is pretty well known. When Whitely Strieber was writing Cat Magic, he consulted her. Here's a link to her Circle Sanctuary site:
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/
Or were you asking if anyone famous is also Wiccan? I think Micheal York is a Wiccan. But I don't know if he's "out" about it.
Bye for now
Diana
Jay Smith:
That was just WRONG; okay? Why are you messing with that young man's head?
He comes in here looking for a little guidance from his elders, and you mislead him.
Everyone knows A Boy & His Dog was really about DRUGS. The story clearly supports the use of natural mind altering substances like "shrooms" 'n' shit. Just like those songs, Puff the Magic Dragon, & The Rainbow Connection, & that kid's game Candy Land are. Those creative types are into toking the weed. They just have to hide the messages in metaphor and symbolism. So as not to get hassled by The Man. But WE know the truth. H
And how else do you explain some of that stuff Harlan Ellison comes up with? He had to be high when he wrote that endiing. He was wasted & laughing his ass. I mean he decides to have the hero feed his girlfriend to his dog. Only a guy with a serious case of the munchies could have come up with that finale. Plus he was probably mad at one of his ex wives at the time. He was probably thinking, "Take that ya bitch!" "Yer dog food".
Diana
Kevin,
I believe your questions have been answered. Do go to a library and read the story. I would also suggest you run for your life.
Jim,
Congrats on becoming a teacher. From what you wrote, I'd say you'll make an interesting and challenging instructor. I hope you have a good prinicpal at your back.
You may also want to get a can of mace and a riot helmet.
Cindy,
Sorry to read about your ear problem. Take your ibuprophen and get lots of rest. The more you sleep, the less time you have to feel the pain. Ear pain is only second to tooth pain. Except for giving birth. So I've heard. Get well. The board wouldn't be the same without you.
Lynn,
Recently, I had the occasion to argue with a knuckle-dragger about Wicca. She gave the usual blather about devil worship, sacrifices, etc. I answered by saying Wiccans don't even BELIVE in a devil. No evil spirits. Also, that Wiccans believed that casting a spell sends a boomerang Kharma winging right back at the caster, so they have to be careful about what spells they do. She came back with that old biblical saw, "suffer not a witch to live". I asked her if she believed everything in a book written by the Devil to turn people away from God. That shut her up.
Is there anything else I could have thrown at her? (Besides a brick) Any famous Wiccans? There have to be.
Chuck
Kevin -
"A Boy & His Dog" is REALLY about gay rights and a noble loving same-sex partnership that exists in a broken down/puritanical society. Never mind what these chuckleheads say. It may be hidden, but the problem is that when the movie was made, the studio didn't want two gay men strolling through this metaphorical apocalypse together, so the smarter one was made a dog (this was, i think, the same time "Benji" and "O Heavenly Dog!" were big box office), his name changed from "Vince" to "Blood", and Don was asked to keep his shirt on.
Nevertheless, themes can be found throughout the production intact from the original 650-page novelization. Witness the underground remnants of a broken conservative culture still trying to force its dated folkways and morals on Vic (forcing him to inseminate women, bow before the Christian God, etc.)
Also note the trolling scavengers in the wasteland, echoes of the devils of Dante's Inferno (be sure to note the comparisons in your paper!) and the fact that those poor souls above ground have to unite in seedy, horrible shelters in order to stay with their partners.
I strongly suggest you read this fine, three-volume set, edited by Cordwainer Bird and published by Kadodie Press, available online at www.readthedamnbook.com
JAY
*** Peter *** If you WERE like Ayn Rand you certainly wouldn't be looking to a group for affirmation!
*** Diana *** Do yourself a favor - if you feel you need to try some Ayn Rand here are three options;
1.] read ANTHEM - then Stop. or;
2.] find the 70 page John Galt speech about 2/3 of the way into ATLAS SHRUGGED and read that - then Stop. or;
3.] read the FOUNTAINHEAD - then Stop. No really.
There is simply no need to read more than one of these. She hits you in the head with the same hammer in exactly the same place each time. Anthem is the shortest and the most clever I suppose. FOUNTAINHEAD has 2 memorable characters. Atlas Shrugged is, umm, unique but it is the TOMMYKNOCKERS of philosophy for my money. And remember, if this does float your boat, "objectivism" without a sense of humor is just a pain in the ass for everybody else.
Schopenhauer is fun but you may wish to skip over any essays about women you come across. Boy howdy, he sure had issues. ;-)
- barney
!!!!College Student Alert!!!!!!!!
Rick, what's the general rule on hazing? How far can we go with these neophytes?
Peter, don't start the parboil pot just yet...let's get sanction n this one :)
BOS
Diana:
I was incarcerated in a juvenile facility for five years, the last three of which were spent in the army, in my choosing the military over adult prison. It was, as the British say, "A fair cop", and I'm neither proud nor shamed of what I did to get in; I did my time, with no complaint. Based on what I learned from those who did time both and my own observations, there really wasn't much difference, except that staff leaned much harder to reform the teenagers than any ever tried in adult prison. And there, as it is in any other penal institution, nobody ever figures out that rehabilitation can only come from the inmate's desire for change, and subsequent efforts on his own behalf; prisons are for punishment, and punishment alone.
As for the book you've mentioned, I haven't read it, but I've marked it for purchase in our latest Amazon order (One thing about this site: the eclectic nature of its denizens will leave your wallet much lighter and easy to carry). The Shopenhauer quote caught my eye; I recall carving it verbatim onto the wall above my bunk, then getting twenty demerits and a week in solitary for doing so: "Defamation of Government Property". All the while, the other inmates had nude photos, dirty limericks, the works, without any pressure from the screws. Shows you that intellect will always lead to trouble.
David: Correct about Russell (got to remember the spelling, n'est ce pas?) and very correct about the books. I would also suggest Russell's "The Conquest of Happiness" and Sartre's "Being and Nothingness". A tip of the chapeau for the small nod to translation, David.
Bon soir, mes amis. A jusqu' demain.
BOS
As a once and future college student, I feel I have the right to say this.
Rick... Could we get a link at the top of the board labeled, "College students with 'A Boy and His Dog' assignments: click here," which in turn leads to a black page with angry lettering saying, "DO YOUR OWN FRICKING HOMEWORK!!!!" or something equally acerbic?
Funny enough, I took one of those "Which science fiction writer are you?" quizzes online. Turns out I'm Ayn Rand. Good thing those quizzes are bunk, right? They are, aren't they? Anybody? Help me out here.
---Peter
Kevin asked:
> First of all, what are the screamers? I guessed that they were
> some sort of mutant created from nuclear fallout. I was
> wondering if the short story has a description of these creatures.
You pretty much have it right. I don't believe the story is any more explicit about them, except that Vic has (or at least describes) a more direct if brief encounter with one or more.
> Secondly, I wasn't clear on why the faces of the undergrounders
> were painted white. Was this a cheap effect at making them look
> pale from being below the surface? I doubt that. I figure that the
> purpose is to make everyone look somewhat alike and
> permanently cheery.
Another excellent guess. I wasn't much fond of this artistic decision, which was all up to the director, I think. Certainly there's nothing in the story that specifically called for this.
> What insights do you folks have into the main message of "A Boy
> and His Dog"?
Uhh, seems to me you can manage this fine, all by yourself.
> To me, it demostrated the importance of the bond between the
> boy and dog. Don (I forget the boy's name) realized that he
> needed the dog as much as the dog needed him. The woman
> was disposable and in that disposal, served a stronger purpose
> to him and the dog (Food).
Yeah, that pretty much covers it. If you read the story, this point is made perhaps a little more poignantly. Basically, Vic isn't gonna survive without Blood, and that's what love means in a blasted, wasted world like the one they find themselves in. In that context, a woman, no matter how fine or how good it feels with her, is ultimately going to be little more than dead weight.
> The movie painted a picture of a world where the surface dwellers
> think only of the present and not the future, living one day at a
> time. It is exactly this type of thinking that leads to ruin.
Uh, well . . . you can't exactly blame Vic or Blood for the way the world has turned out. Bigger and "smarter" powers were responsible for that. Our heroes are just trying to make their way in the mess others have made. Aren't we all?
Kevin,
While I can only actually speak for myself, several of the others here will probably join me in saying that when you ask a question like, "I was wondering if the short story has a description of these creatures." - It's probably a good idea to read the story yourself. It _is_ a short story after all, and it might clue you into what Mr. Ellison was trying to say himself - which you can then compare to what you watched.
And while we appreciate the "kind" suggestion of your instructor to seek us out and ask us all of these wonderful, probing questions - It's not in _your_ best interest to have us spoonfeed the "answers" to you.
Thanks for stopping by, and good luck in school.
Bern
I am a college student and for an assignment just watched the film "A Boy and His Dog". First of all, I've just gotta say that Don Johnson is almost a God (Haha).
I did, however, have a few questions that you folks might be able to answer for me considering the fact that you seem to ba fans of Harlan's work.
First of all, what are the screamers? I guessed that they were some sort of mutant created from nuclear fallout. I was wondering if the short story has a description of these creatures.
Secondly, I wasn't clear on why the faces of the undergrounders were painted white. Was this a cheap effect at making them look pale from being below the surface? I doubt that. I figure that the purpose is to make everyone look somewhat alike and permanently cheery.
What insights do you folks have into the main message of "A Boy and His Dog"?
Despite the films poor quality, it definitely makes one think, and the ending pretty much made the film for me, but then again, I've always had a sort of morbid sense of humor. In addition to it making me laugh though, it seemed to serve a purpose. To me, it demostrated the importance of the bond between the boy and dog. Don (I forget the boy's name) realized that he needed the dog as much as the dog needed him. The woman was disposable and in that disposal, served a stronger purpose to him and the dog (Food).
The movie painted a picture of a world where the surface dwellers think only of the present and not the future, living one day at a time. It is exactly this type of thinking that leads to ruin.
TO F.A.Q.:
Thanks for your recommendation of "City of God". I checked out some reviews and now I totally want to see the movie. If it comes out on video I'll go get it. Or order it on line. Or something.
TO DAVID:
The first I've heard of Mumia Abu-Jamal is today through this book I mentioned, (which I only paid 40 cents for at a second hand book store!)I got it days ago but just picked it up to read yesterday. (I forget to add that the book is edited by someone named, H. Bruce Franklin) (w/a forward by Tom Wicker) You probably know as much about him as I do. There's a little information of some kind or another at the introduction of each author's work. That's all I have on him at the moment. Nothing to stop me from looking for more information on the internet though.
Diana
AYN RAND: When someone describes "Randism" superficially to you, I think it sounds great. Self-reliance and blah blah blah - who disagrees with that? When you actually read her rantings, however, you realize she was little more than a fringe lunatic distinguished from a Lyndon Larouche only by her success.
And like her philosophy or not, the simple act, she's one of the worst writers to ever be published. She couldn't write a simple declarative sentence if you spotted her the period, subject, verb and object.
Susan&Harlan
The package arrived. Thanks so much. Did you receive the article?
Diana:
If you hadn't encountered the name before, Mumia Abu-Jamal has been on Death Row for some time, but in the past few years there's been a rising protest to have him freed or at least re-tried, partly because of his writing talents and partly because he allegedly was framed. Since the victim in the case was a policeman, opposition to this movement has been strong, as well.
I don't know enough to have an opinion on the case, other than being generally against the death penalty, of course.
Thanks David...
and
Oh, okay I've heard of Betrand Russell. He definately is easier to read than ol' Nietzsche. For sure.
TO BOS:
I read where you said you were in prison for a time. Here's a vague bit of sychronicity for you...right now (I've only paused to write this) I'm reading (from a book titled, "Prison Writing In 20th Century America") some of the offerings of man named Mumia Abu-Jamal. This particular essay is called, "B-Block Days & Nightmares". The author commences with a quote from Arthur Schopenhauer ("For whence did Dante take the materials of his hell but from our actual world? And yet he made a very proper hell of it" - from "The World as Will and Representation)
I just felt like mentioning this. I thought it was interesting.
Diana
My recommendations for a nice, easy introduction would be:
1. Jean-Paul Sartre's _Existentialism and Human Emotions_ (although a direct translation of the French title would be "Existentialism is a Humanism")
2. Bertrand Russell's _Why I Am Not a Christian and other essays_ (assumming that's the "Russel" you were talking about, BOS).
Cease thy mutterings and go off to catch the excellent 'City of God', never before have I seen someone catch the spirit of Pontecorvo, filter it through celluloid and come out with one of the best films of the new year.
FAQ
Thanks to Lynn, and BOS (so far) I've passed your pro war against Iraq suggestions on to The Beloved Offspring (aka The Boo)
TO BOS:
I've heard of Satre, & Descartes, of course.
Thoreau refers to Rousseau in Walden's Pond. I remember his name because I agreed with what he was quoted as saying about rebelling just for the sake of rebelling being idle and foolish.
I'm not sure I've heard of anyone named Russel who wrote philosophically.
Maybe you'd consider recommending ONE title by each of these people? If you can find the time?
Diana
Diana:
Try Descartes, Rousseau, or my favourites, Russel and Sartre. No pomposity, but heady and solid philosphical thinking, meat for the mind as it were.
Rand? Nope. Objectivism is the moebius line of conceptal thought. Rand never discussed how labour must accept total exploitation at the hands of the great conceptualists and wielders of captial for her design for a functioning society to work, with democracy converted to a social darwinistic meritocracy. "The Fountainhead" was actually a fine novel, but the only good work she ever produced. "Atlas Shrugged", "We The Living" and "Anthem" were barely disguised polemics, ones that could've been printed on a four page pamphlet and been just as intellectually weighty.
Iraq:
War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You to Know - William Rivers Pitt, William Rivers Pitt, Scott Ritter
Saddam's Word: The Political Discourse in Iraq - Ofra Bengio
The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq - Kenneth Pollack
War Crimes: A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq - Ramsey Clark
Two tomes showing a pro-US stance, two against. And 100% Chomsky free...a pity that Gwynn Dyer doesn't have a volume out on this issue. One would think this one right up his alley.
Existentially Yours, BOS
To Jon, Alex, & Ms. Bermanator:
Thanks for your input & suggestions about Ayn Rand. Even if Jeri doesn't feel she'd be interested in the titles recommended(???) I am. I expect I'd be more likely to "get" the parodies after I've read some of Ms. Rands work. Maybe after I've done that I'll finally understand why my friend has been telling me about these books for so many years.
If her writings are philosophy (I thought they were novels?) I may find it hard going. I haven't studied philosophy. I did read a little Nietzsche at one point. I found it was kind of like trying to read an intestine. I mean, it *looks* normal, but his sentences were so compacted, and convoluted, it took me a half an hour to get through one or two paragraphs. And after all of that it seemed to me that his conclusions were based on an atheistic world view, which I think is a hugely false premise to begin with, so I ended up ditching the effort. (But it was very very interesting)
Philosophy majors get on my nerves anyway. They pompously pontificate on the likes of Jung, Camus, and Nietzsche as if they think they wrote the shit they're studying. Truth is it has looked to me like they mostly simply had it crammed spoonful by spoonful into their snotty little brains by some assistant professor, who may or may not have ever had an original thought of his(her) own in this lifetime. Philosophy majors can BITE ME. (do I sound bitter?)
Anyway I do appreciate all your offerings. Bye for now.
Diana
"The Republic of Fear" by Kanan Makiya
http://tinyurl.com/4tfg
To Anybody:
I need input, please. My son has a debate coming up in which he has to make like he's for the war against Iraq. I'm hoping someone can recommend some books he can look for that (intelligently) support a prowar with Iraq point of view. He came across the title of one called, "The Threatening Storm, by Kenneth Pollack, which he heard was good, but which he hasn't been able to find locally (so he hasn't read it) Also, any postings that reflect a prowar stance here at the forum will be read by him with interest.
Thanks in advance for any attention y'all can give to this matter.
Diana
Cindiana: Ruptured eardrum-- ouch! How'd ya do it? I ruptured mine during a severe head cold and it took a while to go back to normal. You have all my sympathies.
Alex Jay: Matt Ruff also wrote Fool on the Hill, which takes place in a mythic version of my dorm at Cornell. It annoyed the crap outta me, so I never read Sewer Gas Electric. Maybe I should give it a try?
Diana: I hate Ayn Rand, not just b/c of her political views, but b/c I find her unreadable. She's not a writer, she's a philosopher, and that's saying something... and not something good IMO. But hey, give it a run, and if you really like it, you can tell me why.
Cindy, so clog dancing on your roof tonight is out?
Be good.
---------------
Brian, Michael Parenti is pretty good too; as well as the fine brits, John Pilger and Robert Fisk.
What is your take on Michael Eric Dyson? I think he is a cool dude.
--------------
Rob, no more nattering, my friend; go on out there and protest with us. :-)
The Preceding Post Was In Honor of Ross Perot
Diana
APROPOS OF EVEN LESS:
You can't ride a mule with two jugs and a forklift.
If the git won't go, wait 'til Tuesday
A bad cold is better than a stalled locomotive.
Diana
Apropos nothing:
http://www.darwinawards.com
Never apologise for having functioning intellect.
BOS
Mary Gaitskill's _Two Girls, Fat and Thin_ has a fairly blistering parody of Randism (among other things) tucked into it as well.
Cheers, Jon
Cindy~ Get well soon! I feel for you, sweetie. I have sinus problems and when the weather starts acting up, I become the human barometer. I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through. So, take it easy, okay? And feel better soon. We need you around here.
L.
Jim (and Bermanator),
The local rag's been running a semi-regular journal of a new teacher. It's actually pretty good reading. The link's below. (By the way, I've linked to the main page, but it's not setup particularly well. The links to the first installment you'll find at the bottom of the page. But, the links to parts 5 and up are at the beginning of the page, but you can't access them from the first few links; or, at least, I got tired of trying to figure it out since the site's layout is kinda fucked up. Anyway...)
It's good stuff and I think you might enjoy it. You too, PAB. He's easy to read and it's fairly insightful from a first year teacher.
http://www.newsobserver.com/newteacher/
JIM: Congratulations!
I have nothing but respect for teachers, when they care. My best friend and his wife are both teachers--one a math instructor at Drexel U., and the other, gahblesser, a 3rd grade teacher in the Catholic schools, and I envy them both their careers.
I lucked out; I had very few through-the-motions teachers, and I had a great many teachers who were simply AMAZING, be they the two guys in elementary school who until only recently (when they hit the cusps of their sixties) played basketball in the school gym summers with former students (Mr. Ginsburg, Mr. Peddis, I love ya!), These were men (one tall and black, one short and Jewish) who didn't care what you were as long as they knew you cared about WHO you were. And virtually all my other elementary school teachers were, I now realize, far above the curve.
I had great teachers (with one exception--a smart if abrasive guy with whom I clashed fiercely) in junior high as well, and had EXCELLENT teachers in the Mentally Gifted program we were sent to once a week. The pattern continued in high school, with maternal teachers like Mrs. K., our tireless choir teacher, open and challenging teachers like Mr. Grabar, now (I believe) a high mucky-muck in the teachers' union, and many others. I loved my public schooling because of these folks.
Then I went to college and it all went to shit, but ...
(and remember, Jim, you can now deduct up to $250 for materials you buy for the classroom, even if you don't itemize your deductions ...)
DAVID: You really can't class Dion DiMucci in with Papmeisters like Pat Boone. Dion had (still does, actually) chops, he could play an instrument, he wrote (and arranged) his own songs, and the lyrics he wrote were comparatively dangerous for the times. Simple, sometimes, yes--but not insipid.
ROB: Though I haven't the time to look this up now, a West German PR agency has done a lot of work for Arab pay for many years now, mostly dealing with the Palestinians. Through that agency came the quick turnaround of the ethnic Albanians and the KLA from being classed (by our government, even!) as Islamic extremist terrorists to the put-upon victims of Kosovo.
And leads which they produced led to stories like Chrstine Amanpour's mournful CNN reportage on an "ethnic Albanian" mass funeral for victims of an (unnamed and never substantiated massacre) ... when the field behind her in which mourners sobbed was full of Serbian Orthodox crosses.
(Yes, what Milosevic's secret police did was damnable and horribly repugnant. But, as in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, neither side had hands which were at all clean.)
DIANA: If your Ayn Randian friend reads any sf, then give her SEWER, GAS ELECTRIC by Matt Ruff. Interestingly, friends who love Rand and friends who hate Rand all love this book.
JAY: Have one on me, brother.
(But didn't you know that the 22nd was National Compliment Day? It's Morning in America! Sunny happy light! [and may I just add that that eyeshadow looks enchanting on you?])
In closing, I quaff a root beer to the memory of our good friend Bill Mauldin. Somewhere peaceful, he, Ernie Pyle, and E.B. White are trading laughs.
To Frank Church.
Frank? That stuff I posted about tangling with Mr E. was addressed to Chuck. He'd said he would consider it more an honor to be "flamed" by Harlan Ellison than something that would scar him...or something like that. I think he just meant what I said to you about it. I think Chuck was saying he thought it would be an honor if Mr Ellison thought he was worth the trouble of arguing with. I felt like teasing him for saying that. It was very humble of him. (Hey Chuck? If your reading this? You're a humble man. The I Ching counts "modesty" as one of the highest virtues. It's a good thing)
I just wanted to clear that up because I thought otherwise you might have been wondering why the hell I was going on about all that in the first place.
Bye for now.
Diana
Cindy: Geez. I had ringing ears for two days after getting stuck beside one of the speakers at a Big Sugar concert, but I didn't manage to rupture an ear drum. You didn't use a pen or an ice-pick as a Q-tip, did you?
But seriously, hope you fell better.
Bern: I didn't ask the question with any suppositions, but come to think of it, I'm not sure how or why that information (that is, income level) would get collected outside a voluntary survey. The 20-24 level makes sense, I think, based on limited personal experience.
On a lighter note, _The Dead Zone_ is finally showing here, and I'm pretty impressed by the first two episodes. _Smallville_'s been pretty tight the last two weeks as well. The Daredevil movie ads bug me, though, mainly because I don't imagine Daredevil as wearing leather or PVC or whatever it is the costume is supposed to be made of.
Take care, Jon
I'm dying to jump in on all of this-- but I ruptured my eardrum last night and I can't sit up for long.
Bermanator,
I'm so glad to see you back! You have been sorely missed.
JIM,
Thank GOD you will be a teacher-- good ones, really good ones like Bermanator and like you will be are worth their weight in the finest imported french truffles.
:)
Ooooooooohhhh I gotta go lie back down now....
So... turned from the front page of my usual online news agents and...
Some human monsters stabbed a 3 year old to death and tried to kill her 10 year old sister in an RV outside a casino while mom and boyfriend were gambling. Seems the murderers felt the mom owed them $125 for reasons that make little sense.
Yesterday, some piece of walking fecal matter walked into a Burger King, pointed a pistol in a 3 year old's face and pulled the trigger. This monster ended up being shot down by cops.
America's a pretty violent frigging place. We don't need politics or religion to divide and inflame our people. We're just f'ing NUTS. I need a beer.
Brian,
P.S.
To avoid being misunderstood, my sentence, "I think he'd offer some interesting insights on that aspect of the topic," was not a read-between-the-lines disposal aimed at you. I'm just referring to Hayden's first-hand knowledge of the debates going on back then.
Brian,
No, I acknowledge the intellectual talents behind those movements. Were this not the case I would not appreciate Lennon as much as I do.
And perhaps if I had Hayden here (I did speak with him once) I would ask my question because I know, his having been a teacher, he would provide me with a palpable answer. I don't think Hayden would give me your reaction either ("I completely disagree with your characterizations"). I think he'd offer some interesting insights on that aspect of the topic.
"Sure, there were probably people who didn't bother to assemble facts, and whose position wasn't much more than what you described."
The intellectuals of the movement were probably vastly outnumbered by those who basically jumped on for the ride. That's why many protesters got stereotyped as burnt-out geeks. But I don't take away your argument; there were extremely literate thinkers at the helm.
Rob wrote:
"OK...Let's try this. Right? Let's say I'm a protester standing here chanting, "Stop the War!! Love and Peace, man!" and a Right-wing Cro-Magnon comes lumbering along to stick a fire cracker up my ass, strike the match, and grunt, "there'll be nothin' but tyranny under the Communists!" But...I simply respond with the same slogan over and over without addressing his position directly; PROBABLY because I haven't the facts at my disposal."
Maybe here's where we have a problem. You see, I wouldn't characterize the entire anti-war movement as being a bunch of chanting, know-nothing protestors. The people who opposed the war, who led the demonstrations, who wrote the dissections of U.S. foriegn policy, were _not_ these chanting geeks you're invoking. If you read the work that people like Tom Hayden or Noam Chomsky or Howard Zinn were writing at the time, you'll find not empty sloganeering, but carefully reasoned positions. And these people were influential. And people read and understood their arguments.
Sure, there were probably people who didn't bother to assemble facts, and whose position wasn't much more than what you described. And sure, we all wish that such people _would_ have developed their opinions carefully and with evidence. But when you provide _this_ example to explain why you wish "the antiwar movement" exercise some consideration... well, you're tarring with a very broad and not-very-representative brush.
This is one of the problems I have with your question. You seem to be operating from the presumption that the antiwar movement didn't have the intellectual heft that it actually _had_-- and then faulting it for not having it. It really is a bit like imagining the entire antiwar movement as that smelly hippie who spit on the soldier in the fable we hear from time to time.
BTW, one of the joys of the DVD of _Manufacturing Consent_ is that it includes Noam Chomsky's appearance on William F. Buckley's _Firing Line_. It's a terrific meeting of one of the leaders of the New Left discussing the war with one of the leading lights of the intellectual Right.
Sorry for the many grammatical errors in my previous post. Shame on me. I told you it was one of THOSE weeks, and next week I spend all day every day grading Regents exams with a head cold. So maybe the internal censor is not working up to snuff. Sue me (or just snicker quietly to yourself).
Bermanator (!!!)
JIM! Hey, congratulations on what will prove an intensely satisfying, crazy decision. I'm currently having a bad week, so I'm going to try to be positive for you.
I went into teaching for the same reasons that you are: I wanted to be the one person who told the truth, the person who didn't judge, who didn't try to force the status quo down throats, who saw past the goth, or thug, or jock, or prep, exterior to the person inside, who listened. Oh yeah, and along the way, maybe get a kid to love a book or a poem or a play or two. So far, so good. I know for a fact that I've already made a difference. The harrowing part is not dealing with the kids. As in everything, it's the adults that are the problem.
Tell me more: What brought this on? I forget what you do for a living now? What subject area? Grade level? How do you plan to prep for this (are you going for a Masters? what degree program?) I don't eat mac and cheese, but in Binghamton, my salary goes a long way.
When I was student teaching, there was a guy in the SUNY Cortland program who was in his 50s, having retired after 30 years of factory work and decided to teach as his second career, so you're not that far behind the curve. In fact, I think the fact that I'm young, I look even younger and sometimes act my shoe size instead of my age, I have trouble keeping the proper boundaries in place. I think you'll find you get instant respect as an adult man than I got going in.
You can and should e-mail me if you want more specific advice. I consider you a friend and am happy to help you any way I can. Certification is a huge pain in the ass, and it varies from state to state, but I will tell you whatever I know.
YAY! Another thinking man becomes a teacher!
Bermanator (who never uses this many of the hated exclamation marks in one year, let alone one post!)
Brian,
"the U.S. invasion of Vietnam was motivated, in part, by the very real possibility that Ho Chi Minh would be elected to high office, and that a Communist leader was unacceptable. In other words, the invasion was a violation of that nation's sovereignty. "
I humbly direct your attention back to my earlier post, when I talked about the French leaving and the crucial decisions the U.S. would make. Our intrusion was a direct response to the departure of the French, who themselves created a mess during their occupation. They were unspeakable assholes to the Vietnamese. And there was great corruption under Ngo Dinh as I recall, so life as a civilian in South Vietnam might not have been better. It would have been, for some time at least, a bogus democracy.
Re: your WWII example, "but if we stop them from murdering Jews, why, the Jews might start mass-murdering the Germans." I hope this illustrates why an antiwar protestor just wouldn't have raised such a question: it would have been ridiculous to even consider it."
You actually turned my "Lew Ayers" illustration inside out! And that was to make the same point you just made here.
I don't know how logical my question was about whether or not those protestors should have raised the queston about what would befall the South Vietnamese under the Communists. (yet, even if they couldn't see vocalizing it to be to their advantage, the concern might have occurred to them if they'd really known enough about it; but that's just fancy speculation on my part). It might have been more up front about the realities while chanting for peace. I know that had I been a participant of the movement - and I WOULD have been - I'd have researched Ho Chi Minh as much as possible to minimize anything the Right would be able to counter with or distort, now or down the road. It's simply a strategy. I suppose I felt frustrated with some of the movement groups (particularly with the few that got militant) because they made it seemingly easy for the Right to make them appear foolish in the course of time...which is largely what happened.
Now, it probably wouldn't have made sense for a rally group to vocalize the concern the way YOU did: ""I'm against this war, it's a horror and it must stop... but what if things get _worse_ if we pull out?"
But it MIGHT if I wanted to challenge myself in a potential confrontation with the Right (similar to the way a lawyer drills his client in a mock trial to ready him for court) - and the Right WAS voicing that question, so it was no mystery - so I could test my own information and diminish the Right in such a debate.
OK...Let's try this. Right? Let's say I'm a protester standing here chanting, "Stop the War!! Love and Peace, man!" and a Right-wing Cro-Magnon comes lumbering along to stick a fire cracker up my ass, strike the match, and grunt, "there'll be nothin' but tyranny under the Communists!" But...I simply respond with the same slogan over and over without addressing his position directly; PROBABLY because I haven't the facts at my disposal. Not that the Right-winger does either; but if I HAD I'd have been able to box him in and legitimize my case to listners and the media. I could minimize the Right's weaponry. However, if I protest with nothing more than a blanket slogan I set myself up for potential Nixons and a conservative media equipped to twist the legacy over time.
As a protester I would think stategically - knowing mine enemy - and ready myself with every indisputable piece of information at my disposal. I don't like other people making me look foolish. I do a good enough job on myself; but when I do I like it to go as unnoticed as possible. So, to cope with others I like to be as well-equipped as possible. (Shit! I actually SOUND like Nixon! Where are my damn plumbers, anyway? I've been waiting around all day for 'em).
BOS,
I'm not sure if you realize this but you stated the obvious; the very point I was driving at.
Ray and Rob:
"Ah, yes. And years on down we'll see Iran-Contra all over again...our corporations having dictated the course of the political system in Iraq. Bush's legacy."
Go further, beyond the notion of a "Standard Oil" deal to exploit the Iraqi oil fields through a puppet government of the US government's choosing, onto the far more likely scenario of a US controlled Iraq vis a vis rule by a military governor, a la MacArthur governing Japan after WWII. Considering the chummy relations with Israel the US continues to hold, just how long do you think the Arab world would sit still for such an arrangement?
For me, no endgame guaranteeing the Iraqi people both the right of a free vote and sustainable rule of law for their nation, at the same time ensuring the Iraqis of the swift departure of US troops means no support. I'll buy killing Hussein, on his record of human rights abuses alone, but not if it means selling the people into another corrupt regime. And, if Duh-Bull-Ya's process of selling this war to the world is any means of measuring any potential success of the US/Iraq war, you might be climbing into a morass.
Caveat Emptor, US. I've called my government, and told them I want no part in this for Canadian troops.
BOS
I still have nothing I can add (thanks for the input provided, though), I'm just going to answer Jon's question:
No. They don't. The closest I get is an age related breakdown, and by far the largest group having abortions are the 20-24 year olds.
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/vital_statistics/2000/table20.htm
This page has some "Who paid for it" lines, but that's the closest I could get.
Again - I'm not trying to lay blame on any one thing - the numbers just shook me.
Bern
Okay, I apologize to Rob for any misinterpretations I made on his post. I see where I jumped the rails a little.
However-- you didn't think I was going to let this go, did ya?-- I still don't agree with Rob's discussion of whether the antiwar protestors considered the possible outcomes if the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam.
First of all, the U.S. invasion of Vietnam was motivated, in part, by the very real possibility that Ho Chi Minh would be elected to high office, and that a Communist leader was unacceptable. In other words, the invasion was a violation of that nation's sovereignty. Sure, one could argue that a communist Vietnam was so undesirable as to require military intervention... but that was the rationale for the invasion, and look what happened as a result. So the antiwar left was attempting to halt a murderous policy, even before its full horrors became manifest.
Also, consider the results of that policy. Two million Southeast Asians dead, and an expansion of the war into Laos and Cambodia with the attendant destruction of their societies. It seems to me that one could weigh these results against hypothetical Communist evils, and decide that a withdrawal would (at the very least) reduce the bloodshed. It would also end the complicity of the American people in mass destruction, as the invasion was done in our name. So on that point alone, I'd say that the antiwar left certainly _did_ consider the possible results of withdrawal-- and decided that it was desirable.
Let's take a hypothetical situation, to illustrate a kind of logical falacy that shows the problems of Rob's concern. Let's say we have an antiwar protestor in 1973. The war's still going on, it's expanded into Laos and Cambodia, and there's no real sign that Nixon really will end it. Our protestor then does what Rob wants them to have done: he thinks, "I'm against this war, it's a horror and it must stop... but what if things get _worse_ if we pull out?" This seems to be the question Rob wants the antiwar Left to have asked itself.
Now, imagine we had someone in 1943 wondering, "The Nazis are murdering Jews, and it must be stopped... but if we stop them from murdering Jews, why, the Jews might start mass-murdering the Germans." I hope this illustrates why an antiwar protestor just wouldn't have raised such a question: it would have been ridiculous to even consider it.
Now, hindsight gives us one difference between the antiwar Left in 1973 and our hypothetical ditherer in 1943: in the 1970s a faction _did_ rise up and begin mass murders. But this only shows that the question Rob wanted people to ask before-the-fact could only have reasonably emerged after-the-fact.
And there is yet another after-the-fact consequence to consider which renders the question _completely_ untenable. The rise of the Khmer Rouge was a direct result of the invasion of Southeast Asia. It would probably not have happened if the U.S. didn't bomb Cambodia into ruin. So the question winds up being something like this: "Gosh, I'm against the war. We've murdered millions. We've brought countries to ruin. We should stop doing this... But wait. What if some really ruthless people take advantage of this ruin, take over a country, and start murdering millions of people? Maybe I'm wrong, and we should _continue_ to bring ruin and murer millions, just so they don't get to murder millions."
So the question now seems to conclude that it's better for _us_ to murder millions of Southeast Asians, than it is to allow Southeast Asians to murder each other.
I'd like to make one thing clear. I don't think I'm twisting Rob's position. What I _am_ doing is showing how Rob's position, if followed logically, leads to ridiculous conclusions that he may not have realized.
Rob also wrote:
"I am not condemning the 60's war protesters for anything. You got me wrong there, though given my ambiguous tone I can see why. I am challenging them with a question I think is interesting. And I DO wonder if they tried to deal with that question and voice the concern - or if they left it out of the picture, making them appear naive. Because if they DID the latter it gave fuel to the Right. If you don't cover your bases you're going to look like the fool."
That's certainly the case-- but fault here isn't with the Left, but with the Right, which twisted and misrepresented much of what the Left really was. So even if the Left was completely without fault, the Right would be circulating the same lies.
Rob,
I nearly broke my promise never to discuss these kind of issues on the forum. Mainly for the reasons that my discussion will become pixel fodder and neither will convince the other of the validity, if any, of their position.
So I'm going to ask you something which I asked all the J-Soc members who were passionate in their support about Israel position on the occupied terrortories. If you want to discuss this issue seriously please explain to me what you understand concerning Pinchas Lavon role as cabinet minister.
(And the rest of the gang, no cheating or helping out here or putting down what you know. This is for Rob).
Best.
FAQ
Frank Church wrote:
"Diana, Harlan and I have differing cultural tastes and at times we butt heads; that is the only time we usually are at arms"
I got it Frank. All joking aside. I understand that you respect him. I could see why you might feel "honored" if he felt it was worth his time to bother to debate with you.
"we see the world in different ways. But that is all good, because no two people should be alike anyway"
I agree. Another mentor of mine keeps suggesting I might enjoy reading Ayn Rand, on account of she sees me as a deep dyed individualist. This could be true. I'm not sure what she means when she keeps telling me that. But it sounds okay. (strolls off singing..."I gotta be ME, I gotta be ME. What else can I be but what I am?") (*sniff*) (more softly, her voice fading as she walks off into the sunset..."It isn't easy being green")
Diana
Bill Mauldin passed on today at the age of 81.
Somewhere Willie & Joe are raising a toast.
Rob, are you saying that you are defending Israel? You do agree with me that they are a major terrorism supporter? Or maybe not.
----------
Brian, you did well. Flashes Brian the secret Chomsky hand gesture. ;-)
-------------
Diana, Harlan and I have differing cultural tastes and at times we butt heads; that is the only time we usually are at arms. But I take that with a grain of salt because I cannot force someone to like what I like, or vice versa. We also were born at different times, and we see the world in different ways. But that is all good, because no two people should be alike anyway.
-------------------------
Rob,
I agree with your assessment. It's the proverbial slippery slope of realpolitik.
Someone in the playground is throwing rocks at the school. As a result, the adults are making a circle around the sandbox, which has been a center for rock-throwing in the past, and which many feel still has a lot of rocks in it.
The adults tell the children that if any more rocks are found, the sandbox will be cleared out. The children deny throwing rocks, or having any in the sandbox. The adults continue to circle the box; they won't leave until it's clear the threat of rock-throwing is over.
Other children in the playground taunt the adults. Parents call in, and tell the adults to let them handle it, at the next PTA meeting.
Should the adults go into the sandbox, and beat the shit out of the kids? No. That would be wrong.
But should they just stay in the building, and send one or two adults out to roam the playground in general, to see if they can find the throwers of the previous rocks?
This big squeeze in the Middle East is just fine with me. I only hope that we don't go into the sandbox.
Ray,
"Once the US has unfettered access to the Iraqi oil fields, rest assured the Saudis will be told to go pound sand."
Ah, yes. And years on down we'll see Iran-Contra all over again...our corporations having dictated the course of the political system in Iraq. Bush's legacy.
This is really an underhanded game Bush is playing.
Brian,
"Here's the problem with your position. We have antiwar protestors who were trying to stop horrific violence that was actually _happening_, and by our country. And you're saying that they didn't think about violence that _might_ happen once we stopped inflicting it. Or, that they didn't complain _enough_ when this consequence happened."
Stop misunderstanding my "position". Once you align me with a Right-wing position you're not me following me at all. It is your last sentence that basically gets at my question. But I don't mean if they addressed the issue AFTER what happened; I mean before it. How did they percieve a regime under North Vietnam? I'm not INSISTING they disregarded the matter; I'm ultimately ASKING if they ever voiced the concern to round their argument. "PEACE" meant we were to end the blood that was on OUR hands. It meant peace for US. The murdering might continue at the hands of the Viet Cong. But not OURS, any longer. All I'm trying to say is a national rally should cover as many aspects of an issue or crisis as possible in its position.
I'm not blaming those protesters because I can see no option in what the U.S. was to do; we had to pull out. If I sound naive about the rallies its because I wasn't there; I was REALLY fucking young, even by the time we pulled out. But I always understood we were adding to untold body counts without achieving anything. I guess I'm just trying to say there was, regardless, a moral conflict to consider; sometimes, an anti-war rally will hold an argument that will not account for other problems (for relevance we'll call it the "Lew Ayers Syndrome") in the issue.
I am not condemning the 60's war protesters for anything. You got me wrong there, though given my ambiguous tone I can see why. I am challenging them with a question I think is interesting. And I DO wonder if they tried to deal with that question and voice the concern - or if they left it out of the picture, making them appear naive. Because if they DID the latter it gave fuel to the Right. If you don't cover your bases you're going to look like the fool. And, indeed, as you suggested earlier, the Right managed to do precisely that...to the extent where today many of the most recent generations are pretty vague on what we did in Nam and why the protests became so heated; they think Rambo had it right.
But do you follow what I've been trying to get at now? It's a question I'm raising not a position I'm taking. I think a protest should consider as many questions as possible, so that when the lower-order primates of the Right confront it or try to subvert it that group can respond in kind.
(This is what was in the back of my mind to begin with; I'll have to go back to my post to see what it was YOU say I corrected myself on. Because there's nothing in my contention now that I didn't hold before. I didn't correct myself; I was expecting corrections from you).
Ah, felt good to decompress for a while, serenading the Mrs. with her favorite songs: "Rainy Day, Dream Away", and "I'm Only Sleeping", and then just making time with her at every possibility.
Beatles: "A Hard Day's Night" still remains one of my favourite films (The best Lester did), and "Revolver" is one of my favorite albums. I think it better than "Sgt. Pepper"; it was the final album where the lads were a tight little group, before technology and disparate interests began to divide them.
Rutles: C'mon, who doesn't like a Nasty/McQuickly tune? They just spring to mind so quickly:
"Hour after hour in an ivory tower
A thousand and nothings to do
Spending the day in a colourful way
Blue upon blue upon blue
Psychadelicatessen
Fricasse chorus girls thigh
Toffee and mackeral gateau
Pineapple pie in the sky"..."Good times Roll" - The Rutles
I still mourn the loss of Leggy Mountbatten, and wonder what Leppo's been up to.
Teachers:
Best: M. Auguste Broulliard - a literature tutor I had whilst incarcerated. No "Dead Poets Society" shit - just a man who showed me that I shouldn't blame the world for my misfortunes; proved that I had a head on my shoulders that gave me a better chance at reform than most of the other inmates, and got me to love Hugo, Verne, Pascal, Rousseau, Sartre and Voltaire. Later, I turned him on to Ellison, Bradbury, Le Guin and Bester, a deed his wife still damns me for. We've been corresponding (writing letters; no emails allowed!) for 23 years. He was best man at my wedding. Need I say more?
Worst: M. Etienne Robidas, my truant officer (yep, we had those, so many moons ago). I can still recall his beet red fat little face spewing profanities as he just missed me getting onto the Metro, one of the favorite means I employed to dodge him and school. An arrogant little man, who loved the small power his job title gave him far too much.
With that, gone. As the wife is fond of saying, hope all's well with all.
BOS
Can someone help me with this " Good Will " screenplay.
BROKEN SOULS
As a child in the 50’s, I went to a private school, where repressive doctrine was meant to guide and protect, which in affect “sheltered “students. I was sheltered away from immoralities only to find myself ill equipped to handle the REAL WORLD and it‘s language.
The screenplay is of leaving my sheltered environment, to enter the other world I knew nothing about. My red face gained me a Guardian Angel, who taught me about rough language and thier meaning with harsh decisions. When I returned home, I found my friend who was home schooled in need of my help, as she had been sheltered to the point of being a lost soul.
This screenplay sends a positive message to parents who intend to place their children in private schools or home school, as well as our politicians. So guidelines may be imposed to protect the mental well being of our children in the process.
Broken Souls by: James LaBudde is based on my true-life story; The Torment’s of the Modest, Secluded Farm Life. ISBN: 1-58721-806-2. By: Doris Anne Beaulieu found at: www.1stBooks.com.
For a copy of the script please contacts:
Doris Anne Beaulieu
43 Thomas Lane
Smithfield, Me. 04978
doris2@prexar.com
Rob,
Once the US has unfettered access to the Iraqi oil fields, rest assured the Saudis will be told to go pound sand.
Jim Davis wrote:
"Guess what? I've decided to... become a teacher"
"Still, I'm going to do it, because if I open ONE mind, it will justify all the ruined ones left in my wake. (Is that the right attitude to have?)"
Speaking for myself, when I hear the word, "teacher", I think "Mr Gray".
Out of all the teachers I've had over the course of an off again, on again twelve years of public school "education", his is the only one name I remember. But I *do* remember him. I'm sitting here now remembering him. I didn't make as much of my life as he seemed to expect I would, but I've had a much richer inner one because of him. He saved my life, I expect. There are so many worse places I might have gone, that I never went, because his offerings put me on the path I went on instead. The path he put me on took me out of Williamsburg, and out of the ghetto mentality, that was all I knew about before he took the time to give a kid who desperately needed it,a little extra attention, a little kindness, and just a little light. For one thing, he gave me books. All he said whenever he handed me a new one was, "Here, I think you might enjoy this". The first one he gave me was, "The Illustrated Man" by Ray Bradbury.
I can still feel/remember the wonder that book evoked. I'd never come across any writing like that before. It was something "rich and strange".
(Actually, as a direct result of him choosing to offer me that book , twenty years later someone handed me one by Harlan Ellison. The person who gave it to me was a college student from Washington University. He was up in New York for the summer. I worked as a street-vendor down near Wall Street at that time, where he would often visit his father who worked as a stock broker.He'd gotten to be a friend, and regular customer. We both loved Science Fiction. I'm sure that's how we got started talking, actually. I always had a book with me.
Anyway, one day he handed me a book by Harlan Ellison. All he said when he gave it to me was, "Here, I think you might enjoy this")
I think you have the right attitude about teaching. I expect you may get a little disillusioned and frustrated in the years to come. Like you also wrote:
"...the American high school system is currently little more than a mold cast for mediocrity and conformity"
I believe that's true. It's the reason why teachers with your attitude are important. Some kid out there right now probably needs you. He/she is no doubt stumbling around in the dark, just looking for a little light. Yours could be the hand that strikes the spark. All it might take is you handing them a book, and saying "Here, I think you might enjoy this"
Finally, you wrote:
"So, any tips for me?" "...any good recipes for mac 'n cheese, since I'm going to be eating a LOT of it?"
I have nothing to offer using "mac 'n' cheese", but I have some really good recipes using ramens, if you're interested.
Diana
"When ya got’em by the balls...their hearts and minds will follow"
Be prepared to speed read here (and perhaps RE-read), but with accuracy (and I recommend checking out the source), because I provided lengthy detail on an issue of growing concern to me.
The topic emerges from an item I read the other day from the United Press International. Its focus is on how Israel is characterized in its conflict with the Palestinians. Throughout Europe, and obviously the Arab world, Israel is largely being painted as a bunch of militants out of control, bearing down on the defenseless Palestinians with unchecked savagery (they've gone mad! MAD!). Few reminders are added in that criticism that the sole reason for Israel’s mobilization is the Palestinians will NOT cease the suicide bombings; their goal is to take the lives of innocent civilians - the higher the numbers the better - to make their stand. Even back when Israel offered them the land in an agreement that would have allowed them to build, the suicide bombings followed. WHAT do they expect? The problem becomes excruciatingly simple: STOP the suicide bombings and Israel stops its incursion.
Saudi Arabia plays a serious role in this characterization of Israel. But Bush does little to bring our oil suppliers into the picture. New pressure is being placed on him over whether our relationship with Saudi Arabia is so cozy that it stands in the way of proper investigation of any Saudi role in the September 11 attacks in the US last year. (The issue has resurfaced because of a claim that the wife of Saudi Arabia's Ambassador to the United States funneled money to two of the September 11 hijackers).
But this is MY concern: money apparently continues to be poured into anti-Israel propaganda. Ministers and senior officials from 12 Arab countries met in June of last year in Cairo to discuss embarking upon a $20 million public relations campaign against Israel. The campaign would "target the international community with the goal of refuting Israeli and American attempts to portray the Palestinians' national struggle as an unjust terror campaign." Arab information ministers also discussed expediting the creation of an Arab satellite television station aimed at the international community. "Arab and international media outlets will be asked to make an effort in order to evidence of war crimes committed by Israeli operations, in order to make it possible to put IDF solders and settlers on trial in the international court," it was said at the conference. One wonders why the Arabs don't use that money to improve the conditions of the Arabs living in the refugee camps. Perhaps they fear the refugees would stop their suicide bombing if their living conditions were improved.
This puts to the light the question "Why is there so much anti-Israel bias in the press?" It seems the Palestinian Authority bribes and threatens western journalists, according to a press release I just read. The media is threatened by the PA to only publish what is acceptable to them or lose their right to report from Palestinian controlled territory. For this reason many films showing the rejoicing of Palestinian Arabs after the World Trade Center bombing were not shown by the Western media (though we certainly saw a snip from it). After two Israeli soldiers were murdered in Ramallah an Italian reporter wrote a letter to the Palestinian Authority denying that his network had filmed the murder blaming the filming on a rival network.
The Palestinians let the foreign journalists understand: "if you don't work with our people we'll sever contact with you, you won't have access to sources of information and you won't get interviews." The piece goes to say even photographs are staged: for example, the IDF announces that it is going in to demolish an empty house, but somehow afterwards you see a picture of a
crying child sitting on the rubble. There is an economic level to that. The Palestinian photographers receive from the foreign agencies 300 dollars for good pictures; that is why they deliberately create provocation with the soldiers.
From the French, the Spaniards, and the BBC it seems an automatic adoption of the Palestinian version of the sieges is propagated and the immediate suspicion of the Israeli version. Accusations are being aimed at the European press. The correspondents reported about every slander against Israel as if it were a fact, according to this source. "The negligence of their coverage contributed to the anti-Semitism that is now making rounds on the continent, and that ought to lie heavily on their consciences".
The ability to influence the Western press comes on top of total control of Saudi internal media and the elimination of opposition within the pan-Arab media. Saudi ownership of the pan-Arab press started in 1979 with the newspaper Sharq Al Awsat, which they edited in London and transmitted via facsimile to printing presses throughout the Arab world. This was followed by the purchase of an old Lebanese newspaper, Al Hayat, which they also edited in London. Women's sports, business and political weekly magazines in London, Paris and Beirut followed. The financial backing given by the House of Saud to its own publications gave them an edge over the competition, which could not afford news bureaus or modern printing presses, and made it easy for the Saudis to pressure others into joining them in return for financial aid. It was a choice between following the Saudi line or perishing...Saudi Arabia's decision to have its own pan-Arab publications was coupled with an attempt to influence the press in non-Arab countries, through financial and other pressures. Refusal to grant visas to foreign correspondents and not inviting them to GCC or other meetings, threatening to cancel subscription to wire services, and newspapers' and magazines' syndicated offerings or the outright purchase of the loyalty of some British and American journalists who covered the Middle East are the most obvious methods used by the Saudis. Saudi influence on Western publications has been relatively successful and part of the reason the ugly deeds of the Saudi regime have not received the press coverage they deserve is that major news organizations do not want to alienate the Saudi Government and because some Western correspondents covering the Middle East take bribes...They own Middle East Broadcasting Corporation, MBC, an Arab language television station in London which serves the expatriate Arab community and transmits to the Middle East via satellite; ANA, the Arab radio station in Washington DC; and Radio Orient, the Arabic language radio station in France. In 1981 some of their friends bought 14.9 per cent of London's TV-AM through a highly circuitous financial route and businessmen beholden to the House of Saud have bought into mainline London newspapers and are eager to buy more".
The piece goes on to detail the extent of Saudi investment in Great Britain and America. "Some investments not mentioned in the above paragraphs are those of Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Bin AbdulAziz Alsaud, the nephew of king Fahd, the king of Saudi Arabia. The prince now owns a whopping $2.05 billion worth of AOL stock -- parent company of Time-Warner and CNN. He also has large holdings in Disney (parent of ABC) and the News Corporation (parent of the New York Post, Fox News, and the London Times).
Why do Muslims apply such pressure?"
Some quotes that were cited in the Koran are frankly alarming; they suggest some of the roots of Arab anti-Jewish hatred. Things like, "They [the Jews] are the heirs of Hell.... They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say ... When evil befalls you they rejoice." Ibid. [Surah 111, v. 117-120]
If children are raised on this perception...well, YOU speculate.
Later the report says, "Islam is spreading it's influence in American schools". A writer named Daniel Pipes did an article titled ‘Become a Muslim Warrior’ (Jerusalem Post 7/2/02) in which he shows how Islam is being preached in American Public schools. In December of last year PBS aired a pro-Islam propaganda piece about Muhammad. George Neumayr described the piece as follows (Pledge Week Islam,The American Prowler 12/20/02):
"While he wasn't a "21st century" advocate of feminism, one of PBS's propagandists conceded ... he came pretty darn close... What about his polygamy? Well, don't start jumping to conclusions. It was not a symbol of heavy-handed patriarchy -- PBS's usual interpretation of polygamy -- but a kind of jobs program/welfare system for widows.
Yes, Muhammad was a "warrior" but only a "defensive" one. Yes, he presided over a mass execution of Jews but this wasn't "anti-Semitism per se." "Most scholars of this episode agree that neither party acted outside the bounds of normal relations in 7th century Arabia," PBS helpfully adds on its web page..."
The writer responds, "If PBS's Islamic theology is correct, then Islam stands as one of the greatest misunderstandings in history. For a religion not of the sword, as PBS insists, Muhammad's followers wielded it quite frequently. Those who lived with Muhammad and listened to him somehow concluded -- who knows, perhaps from seeing him war himself -- that spreading Islam by force of arms was okay. Silly them. Laboring under this misunderstanding, they went on to conquer parts of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Russia, the Balkans, North Africa, the Middle East, Persia, Christian Byzantium, and India. What a misunderstanding! Under the tutelage of Bill Moyers, they would have seen that Islam justifies not imperialism, but only "defensive warfare" and only the "improvement of one's self as the 'greater' jihad," as PBS's webpage puts it.
At least one of the funders is Saudi, The Arabian Bulk Trading, Ltd. University Muslim Associations bring in Islamic Propagandists at a remarkable rate. The money for these speakers must be coming from somewhere. With spreading Islamic influence comes anti-Semitism".
In closing, he expresses concern: "Anti-Israel speakers or pro-Muslim speakers are being bought into colleges at an alarming rate and they are well advertised. At the University of Pennsylvania a colleague of mine saw a four page ad in the school newspaper bought by the Muslim Student Association during a week in which they bought in 3 speakers (Last week in October 2002). Another colleague at Rutgers University told me how anti-Israel speakers are bought in frequently and are well advertised. Many if not all the anti-Israel speakers at Rutgers are sponsored by www.njsolidarity.org. In the month of October alone, they sponsored 6 speakers at Rutgers and two in the New Brunswick Public library. If this is going on all over the country it's only a matter of time before the United States becomes as anti-Semitic as Europe. The money to do this must come from somewhere. It certainly doesn't come from the students most of whom don't earn money while in college and rely on their parents for tuition. The funding probably comes from Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia who fund front organization in the United States in their effort turn the United State against Israel".
To whatever extent these reports are true - even if they are partially true - it concerns me a great deal. It is another way for a culture to fight a war; working from the inside out...an excellent compensatory weapon. Like the ichneumon fly laying its eggs inside a live catepillar host for the larvae to incubate a culture puts its money inside the media of another to bear its propaganda.
Re the Beatles.
The only people who surpass me in my love for the Beatles are those who are unbalanced fanatics on the subject. Faisal's comments were, as he said, made out of "unreasoned emotional bigotry." As long as he's upfront about _that_, I have no problem with his comments.
By the way, I heard a report that _Anthology_'s due out on DVD this April. Fab and gear!
To Jay, re his story about adult video rental stores:
Don't tempt me. I just bought my first camcorder.
Rob, thank you for correcting your error re my post on Cambodia. But I still have a difference of opinion with you on this matter.
I read over your note several times, and while you refer to what you see as a compalcency or moral failure on the part of the antiwar left regarding Cambodia, I couldn't find anything _substantial_ in your complaints. Frankly, it seems as though you're angry over _something_ the Left did, but exactly _what_ this was, you can't say.
If I were to get to the library and look up what various leftist and antiwar magazines reported regarding Cambodia, I don't think I'd have any trouble finding articles bemoaning the mass murders; it was a topic that was widely circulated in the mainstream press to begin with, and I'd be _surprised_ if the antiwar Left failed to comment on it at all.
But again, you're faulting the antiwar Left for something-- the most concrete item in your post was a comment about how protestors "didn't seem to consider the unspeakable violence that was by now awaiting the Cambodians when they were crying for peace." I don't agree that this was the case; matter of fact, one could just as easily fault the government and supporters of the war for refusing to acknowledge the "unspeakable violence" that our country _was_ inflicting upon Southeast Asia.
You say "WE would have peace; the Cambodians would not." Well, WE had taken peace away from them, and inflicted horrific damage to their country. If the antiwar left assumed that Cambodia would recover if WE stopped bombing them, I don't think anyone could fault them for it.
Here's the problem with your position. We have antiwar protestors who were trying to stop horrific violence that was actually _happening_, and by our country. And you're saying that they didn't think about violence that _might_ happen once we stopped inflicting it. Or, that they didn't complain _enough_ when this consequence happened.
There's just too much wrong with this position. The Vietnam War managed to kill roughly two million people in that region (and since U.S. casualties were less than 60,000, most of that blood is on our collective hands). If an antiwar activist couldn't imagine anything _worse_ for Southeast Asia, I don't think he or she can be faulted for that particular lapse of imagination. As for imagining the rise of the Khmers, as well as their enaction of policies of mass murder, I don't think anyone can be faulted for failing to see that in 1970.
If you're going to fault the Left for some kind of complacency, you're free to do so, but I don't think you have much of a basis for it. But, since there are people and parties who actively _supported_ the Khmer Rouge after their bloody record was established-- like Reagan-- I'd recommend turning your attention to denouncing those people.
RICH: Oops. Can you tell that I typed my post in a something of a hurry?
"All Ya Need is CASH..." (Ev'rybody!)
Barney,
I'm right there with ya, personally. It will be difficult to convince the mass audience that craves that material to put down their "Adult Sophisticates" and start debating the virtues of Kubrick. (or perhaps that's how those debates always begin, who knows?) I once worked for a man who owned a video store in the days before Blockbuster ran him out of business. He already had feirce competition, but he refused to rent "X" rated videos. His partner and brother finally convinced him that they needed more than wholesome fare to pay the bills under a tightening market share and, by the end of the next quarter, their inventory of 50 backlist titles and 15 new releases was making DOUBLE what the rest of the store made at the same rental price.
This went on for about a year, then, right before Blockbuster opened about a mile up the highway, the owner decided he'd rather go bankrupt than live with what he called the "shame" of selling adult movies. He sold his half to his brother and retired. The brother decided to go entirely adult, replacing snacks and popcorn with toys and magazines. A year later, he sold the place to a chain and retired...to a nice house with a fat bank account.
A little Grimm's Fairy tale with a totally subjective moral.
and, yes, i apparently do have a problem with commas,,,,,,,,
David,
Sorry, I musta been mixing my pronouns there. I meant, the first CD of Frankie, not the Beatles (though, the first albums I ever got were Meet the Beatles and Band on the Run).
Jim,
Other than you attributing David's comments to Finder and not to me in regards to "first album", I'm with you on the comments concerning those exoskeletoned musicians.
Setting the record straight,
Rich
Barney,
"Even IF the Iraqi's welcome us like the French did in WWII [hah!]"
I liked that one. (lol)
Of course, we can't forget the Rutles, can we? Come on, everybody--join in! "Goose-step Mama . . ."
ALEX JAY: Yep, that's a C#m. But if you play the open A as a root, guess what you have? An Amaj7! (Chord synonyms--I LOVE 'EM!)
And really, David and Alex, do we reallly need to justify the Beatles at this late date? So Faisel is sick of 'em--does that diminish their importance one whit? (In a perverse way, I can respect his attitude, given the monolithic position the Fab Four have assumed in our culture. Sacred cows make the best hamburgers, and all.) As for me, my opinions about their music run a little counter to Prevailing Wisdom (imagine that). Their early recordings, instead of being the bland, happy pop that most people dismiss it as, sounds more and more like amphetamine music--sped up, tightly coiled, perpetually pissed at one thing or another. (And if "Please Please Me" isn't about oral sex, I'll eat my copy of THE PERFUMED GARDEN.) Remember, they'd spend most of the early 60's in Hamburg hopped up on pills and playing to biker gangs, so they were, in many ways, punks before the term really applied to rock musicians.
And their later work? However sonically innovative it may be, LYRICALLY it fits right smack in the musty tradition of great British childrens' literature, like ALICE IN WONDERLAND and THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS. I've experienced very few works of art that evoke the lanquid, hazy, sometimes nightmarish landscape of childhood like the Beatles' music can, though when you talk about this aspect of their work, it's Lennon you really have to credit. Now, I'm not a McCartney-hater like all the rest, but Lennon was the real genius, as far as I'm concerned. McCartney was a great-all-around talent, and the only instrumental virtuouso in the band, but without Lennon to spur him on, he's become as bland a purveyor of pop as any Tin Pan Alley hack you can name. (And I don't mind if he's a vegan, but does he have to make his DOG one too? That's just downright SADISTIC.)
Oh, and David? Regarding that first album Finder bought in Germany, I think he's talking about Frankie Goes to Hollywood.
DTS: I always heard that "honky" was derived from the Senagalese "honq," meaning "pink, or of light complexion." Also, "honky-tonk" supposedly reflected the tinny sound of the tack piano, which was a staple in these clubs.
BARNEY: the term "honky" originated in the South. As some of you country Mofos may already know, hillbilly nightclubs used to be called Honky Tonks (remember "Honky Tonkin'" by the great Hank Williams?). Naturally, in the Old South, only white, good 'ol boys frequented these establishments. And the drunks that emerged from them were often referred to as Honky Tonkers. Because black men often preferred jazz and/or rythm and blues, they eventually picked up on the term Honky Tonker as form of derision (albeit sly) regarding the musical tastes of these crackers. Eventually, the term was shortened to Honky (or, in some areas of the country, Honky Mofo).
Hey, would I pull your chain?
Sincerely,
DTS (Amateur Prof. of Etymology)
Finder the-finder@mindspring.com temporised:
> Faisal - I think part of the Beatle mystique that so deeply
> entrenches them is all in their timing, at least in the US -
> their look was rebellious, their early sound was a departure
> from a lot of the pop and R&B then dominating the charts,
> and they were played off as four young, average, down to
> earth kids. They could have sung soup jingles and gotten
> them airplay the way the buzz was stacked in their favor.
That's part of the picture, but I think "soup jingles" goes too far. They were "safely rebellious," of course, as opposed to the Rolling Stones and real black music, circa 1963-64. But there was substance there, there certainly was energy, and there was life. Perhaps some of you are too young to know what was filling the U.S. airwaves shortly before the Beatles hit these shores, but try looking up a playlist of hit singles in 1962-63. A lot of it was pretty insipid: Dion, Bobby Darrin, Pat Boone whitewashing original black music, etc. Doo-wop was among the decent stuff available, but much of that didn't make the playlist on AM stations with predominantly white urban and suburban audiences.
> And although they didn't single-handedly change the face of
> popular music forever, if you hold up "Please Please Me" and
> "A Day In The Life" and "Come Together" side by side, the
> scope of their evolution is pretty amazing.
To say nothing of "Eleanor Rigby," "Tomorrow Never Knows," or "Strawberry Fields Forever." Even a relatively early ballad like "If I Fell" has some very strange, un-pop-like chord shifts.
> They were also every bit as self-indulgent as Prince is today
> ("The Beatles" would have been a killer single album; as a
> double, it's flabby on a 'Jared-before-Subway' scale.
Again, I wouldn't go that far. Try picking a single album's worth of cuts, and I bet you'll feel bad about the songs you have to leave out. I'll admit there's some filler and crap, but more than a single LP's worth of good material remains.
> And if that's not enough, I have only three other words:
> "Magical Mystery Tour" - the movie, I mean).
True, but there are not too many other groups or artists that evolved so far in so little time - both in terms of years and number of albums.
> I enjoy the Beatles for what they were - four musicians who
> did very well playing the "What if we do it THIS way?"
> game.
That's a much too inadequate and unfair summation of their musical achievement. You can't do "what if we do it this way?" for very long without solid material to do it with, and not far into the game they were composing just about everything they released.
> But for my money, pre-breakdown Brian Wilson was easily
> an equal to McCartney as a writer, and a better arranger.
> "Pet Sounds" is a masterpiece, and if "Smile" had beaten "Sgt.
> Pepper's" into the record stores in 1967, music history would be
> somewhat different. But Brian was crushed under his own psyche,
> "Smile" became the seizure-inducing "Smiley Smile", and we all
> know the rest.
I'm willing to pay respectful attention to your arguments, but what might have been is not what was. That's like saying Van Gogh would have achieved as much as Leonardo or Michelangelo if he hadn't gone nuts. The vision was there, but there's no way to separate it from the madness. Hence, McCartney (or rather, McCartney and company, circa 1963-69, with George Martin in the mix) comes out on top. I'm not all that fond of Macca as a person, myself; he's not very intelligent, but he is canny. He's got good street smarts. And he wasn't just a vaudeville crooner and balladeer; remember "I'm Down," "Long Tall Sally," and "I Saw Her Standing There." (Post Beatles, "The Mess" was a decent rocker too.)
rich asked:
> By the way, I got their first CD when in Germany and it is different
> than the one I got in the United States to replace it (I had to get rid
> of it for various reasons that are behind me now). I distinctly
> remember there being some stuff on there about what to do during
> nuclear war. Music and then a voice intoning what to do with your
> grandmother if she died or somesuch like that. The US one I got
> years later didn't have any of that. Was I hearing voices at that time
> or am I just completely and utterly mistaken?
I'm not enough of a trivia nut to be able to answer this one, but there are certainly Usenet groups and discussion lists where you can take this kind of question. I seriously doubt you had the band's "first" album, though; in the first few years, the lads and their material were under pretty tight rein in order to be deemed sufficiently "politically correct" for the time and therefore commercially viable to the max. I have an American VeeJay records release of their "first" album that looks like the cover of "Tiger Beat" magazine: inside are lists of each Beatle's "favorite actress" and "favorite hate," and on the back are four photos with a heart-shaped space below, where you're supposed to paste your photo, and in between: "Paul Loves . . . John Loves . . . George Loves . . . Ringo Loves . . . ." Political content at that point would have been a severe no-no, commercially speaking.
You may have had a later compilation of early tunes and some of their Christmas messages, perhaps. (Those were non-commercial messages of 3 to 8 minutes recorded specifically for their fan club and released only to them for three or four years. They've since been "reissued" on bootlegs. Has anybody else here heard 'em?)
HEY, BERMANATOR!!!!
Good to see you again, ol' pal. Guess what? I've decided to join you permanently in the lower tax brackets--i.e., become a teacher. It's kind of ironic, since I believe the American high school system is currently little more than a mold cast for mediocrity and conformity, and should be scrapped. Still, I'm going to do it, because if I open ONE mind, it will justify all the ruined ones left in my wake. (Is that the right attitude to have?)
So, any tips for me? Failing that, any good recipes for mac 'n cheese, since I'm going to be eating a LOT of it?
*** Jay Smith ***
Jay writes - "There will always be a market for 'hos and pimps and musical celebration of the travels and adventures of a man's penis."
And while that's clever it is also the crux of the ethical vacuum we're in. Namely, the assumption that such a market MUST always be catered to, no matter what the social consequences.
It's the mentality that says "if I don't make this napalm somebody else will - at least this way I get a swimming pool out of it."
You must not resign yourself to this shit or they'll just pour on more shit.
- Barney
Barney,
MTV USED to control the music industry, but I think that's turned around now. They used to be the only game in town, but since those great days of old, P-Diddy and his homies can sell a million disks with airplay, BET, and any of the other music channels out there. Given that MTV plays corporate-sposored music shows and label-influenced "music specials" I think they take their lead from the bread-butterers who provide them with material to fit between "MTV Beach Party 2003 Brought to You By Trojan Condoms" and "Celebrity Houses You'll Never Own, featuring Buff-Pappy and Ruff-UnkaCraka and FrankE Ghost'an Ho-LEE-wuud."
AOL Time Warner and Disney tried that stuff and it just ain't workin. There will always be a market for 'hos and pimps and musical celebration of the travels and adventures of a man's penis.
*** Xanadu ***
I blame MTV.
No, really. Sure they have a pretty good website about birth control but the signal to noise ratio is just appalling. Here we have a ridiculously influential media outlet and when they're not airing that vacuous shit called reality television - which couldn't be LESS real, they're mythologizing thug/gangsta culture.
What do a majority of these videos have in common? Women are, at best, hood ornaments. These arn't "women" they're "bitches" and if you are a player your goal is to "hit dat" and be gone.
The black female artists are just as bad. Half their stuff is "fuck and run" to quote a white artist. This isn't what I would call girl power.
And I blame MTV. They could fix this. Well, they could help at any rate. If a new 1.6 million dollar video comes in the door praising thug-life? "Sorry, that's so last Thursday - bring us something else." Or "Hey, P-Diddy? Um, we made you really rich. Howzabout you do a safe sex spot for us? No? Where's that rotation list, um let's see..."
The bad black cultural propaganda that gets put out by MTV sometimes makes it look like Spike Lee didn't go far enough with BAMBOOZLED.
Just another middle-aged honky opinion.
- Barney
[anybody know where honky comes from? Just curious.]
XANADU: Regarding your "dash of cold water" statistics and the closing remarks...yeah, we (our country is what I'm assuming you mean) are doing something wrong. Many of us are listening to folks like the pontiff in the pointy hat; others are listening to nattily dressed used-car-salesman-disguised-as-spiritual-ministers who blame everyone but themselves or the parents or their god (and "his" rules) for children's ignorance regarding sexuality. Then, of course, those used car salesman preach abstinence for the children, as if sexual desire (at that age) was something one could control like a water faucet.
Yeah, we're doing something wrong: many Americans are listening to shamans, priests and voodoo doctors for advice concerning our children's sexuality and any education regarding such. Too many of us are STILL hiding our heads in the sand (and often in shame) where sex, reproduction and birth control are concerned. We've come a long way since Plymouth Rock, huh?
Puritanically,
DTS.
David Loftus: OK, so are you sitting around watching HR Pufnstuf while you're grooving to the Banana Splits? Now that would be groovy.
Bern: I admit it's a statistical-gathering long shot, but they don't provide income ranges for people who get abortions, do they?
Cheers, Jon
FINDER: Chicken cheesesteak? Just fine. I'll take mine without the cheese. (In fact, there's a place not too far from me which makes its steaks into a pouch--a hollowed-out round Italian roll of some sort. Heaven.)
XANADU: Yes, Bern--we ARE doing something wrong. But it has little to do with abortion and a LOT to do with how we RAISE our children.
*** David ***
I don't disagree with your appraisal of presidential inertia in wartime. But those were land war situations involving complicated terrain and multiple or broken fronts. This will have to be different. There will be an air war, but nothing like Desert Storm. It won't go on for a month because the targets for a month of sorties simply are not there. It will be a huge land assault from Kuwait because that's the most [and possibly the only] "friendly" staging area and it will be swift or it will be a debacle. From Kuwait to the most fortified palace in Iraq could take as little as two days and with full supply lines no more than 2 and a half weeks. And we'll go as soon as the Pacific carrier group gets there and perhaps sooner. Sooner if you were listening to Powell yesterday. We're past the sabre rattling stage by about a million paychecks. 96 hour alert status? We're going sooner - not later.
So what's the timetable? Occupation by spring. Early summer if he wastes time moving pieces around on the board, which is seldom a good idea. That means he has 12 - 19 campaign months for things to go wrong. Between the torching the oil scenario, the possibility that some of our troops will be exposed to chemical or biological toxins, the very real possibility that SOMEBODY in the rest of the middle east might be somewhat offended by all this, the fact that there will be no alliance to take the heat AND the not often mentioned fact that we will be disrupting HUGE Soviet and Chinese oil contracts - how can things not go wrong in that time frame?
The other difference between this and presidential loyalty during the Vietnam war is that Americans have had 30 more years to grow a hard shell of cynicism. Look how quickly Bush Sr.'s popularity [and I believe this to be a frequently inflated and mostly artificial statistic] faded after the last war in the middle east.
Even IF the Iraqi's welcome us like the French did in WWII [hah!] and he re-builds the country using the Marshall Plan as a template it will still turn to shit for him before next November.
The only way that doesn't happen is also truly horrible to consider. Last year we were running middle east invasion war plans and some of the guys playing the bad guys got real creative in a Tom Clancy best-laid-plans-turn-to-shit sense and did some nasty "theoretical" damage to 2 carrier groups. The pentagon folks running the war games said "well, that's cheating" and hit the reset button on the games TWICE.
IF at some point we encounter a situation where mass casualties of American soldiers are the result then it's possible we could enter a post 9-11 mindset where "staying the course" to invoke shrub seniors pathetic campaign wish might actually seem like a good idea.
On my bad days I think 52 percent of us could be that stupid but I'm not having that bad day YET.
- Barney
On the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, I looked at the numbers published by New York State on abortion for 2000 (the most recent year published), broken down by race. ('cause NY is the kind of state that keeps these kinds of number)
Total Abortions Statewide: 125,146
Whites: 56,828
Blacks: 52,674
Hispanics: 32,424
Other: 5754
Not Stated: 9890
In an of itself, these numbers say nothing - New York, though decreasing in population, still has a lot of people in it. But these are the stats that should raise an eyebrow or two:
Abortion Ratio (Induced Abortions per 1000 Live Births)
Total Statewide: 484.2
Whites: 311.8
Blacks: 966.5
Hispanics: 602.4
Other: 280.2
Looking at these numbers, I have to say - something is wrong here - something major. I don't care how devoted you are to the proposition that women have a right to choose, the fact that one out of three total pregnancies ends in abortion and that HALF of all black pregnancies end that way should be ringing alarm bells in everyone's mind. We are doing something wrong.
Here is the page for those stats:
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/vital_statistics/2000/table23.htm
And lest you think I cherry-picked the year for effect, the years 1997-1999 were WORSE - follow the link toward the top of the page titled: Return to Return to Vital Statistics, and look at the other years (Table 23).
I have nothing more I can add - those numbers, cold and hard as they are, speak volumes for themselves.
Bern
Alex Jay -
Yeah, I caught that part of the speech, too. It was right before he started talking about spending more on public education. I take that to mean urban schools (in Philly) will get more State money. I'm all for that, but the billion-dollar deficit is gotta be chopped somewhere. Powerball and the Lottery aren't going to take care of one of the nation's largest collection of retirees and, if primary education is going to GET money, that means PHEAA is going to get the cuts. We certainly aren't going to force the PA's Homeland Security bureau to hold bake sales. I'm curious to see what Teflon Eddie has in mind to balance everything out and who it's going to give "short term pain" before we all reap his "long term gain."
Alex - I don't use Subway myself. It promotes rust.
And if I hadn't given up beef, I'd take you up on the cheesesteak (I suppose seeking a chicken cheesesteak would get me chased to the state line with pitchforks and torches) - though what I'd really like is a good slice of legitmate New York pizza... and a cannoli. Mmmmmm... cannolis...
You mean this ISN'T the BBS for my Popular Music and Faux Fresh Food Seminar? So my discourse on the contrasts between William Faulkner's and Tennessee Williams' handling of Aristotelian Principles in their respective works is at this moment being savaged by three old hippies and that kid who goes on and on about Phish?
Damn. I really need to watch those IP addresses better...
FINDER: You should be ashamed. Referencing a Subway commercial on a literary forum?
(Feh. Come get a hoagie or a cheesesteak and have some REAL food.)
FAISAL: You don't like the Beatles. Fine. But there are simply too many changes wrought by this one group on the face of rock music to so casually dismiss them.
Look at rock-and-roll before 1962. Look at the vast change brought upon rock in the eight years which followed. One driving force behind that change was Motown. Another was the Beatles. Granted that they weren't the first broad innovators in rock--that honor goes to Phil Spector, with his "Wall of Sound" and his arrangements, and to the composers Lieber and Stoller, who had started playing around with the music form a bit.
But the Beatles, in the course of their own evolution, brought so much along with them to the face of a pop music scene. This scene at that time consisted of wishy-washy bouncy songs which, with a slightly different arrangement, could easily have served the Four Aces or the Four Freshmen fifteen years before, and the frenetic G-C-D progression we think of as Fifties Rock (and the just as frenetic I-IV-V chord progression borrowed from the simplest of twelve-bar blues, a la Chuck Berry).
Look at the jazz chords and unusual voicings which the Beatles soon utilized, From the just-as-simple C-D7-F or A-D-C progressions of the early songs like "Eight Days a Week" or "Day Tripper," they soon went on to using slash chords and complicated vocal progressions as found in songs like "Norwegian Wood," showing a (vocal and lyrical) complexity unseen in non-jazz music save in the more adventurous purveyors of musical commedy (Cole Poerter, the Gershwins, Noel Coward). In fact, among guitar pros, the C#m chord played on the last four strings (D: 2nd fret; G: 1st; B: 2nd; E: open), is known as a "Beatles chord," as are several others.
(And yes, they built upon the lyrical foundation which Dylan had already laid--but look at Dylan's early work: Though meaningful, it wasn't exactly the most elaborate of music. The Beatles were able to combine advanced lyricwriting and musicmaking.)
Sevenths with suspended fourths, ninths, major sixths--these chord voicings simply weren't heard in rock and pop before the Beatles.
Then, with the classical music producer George Martin to guide them, the orchestrations then became more complex in places, with instruments rarely thought of in the rock and pop venues. Hell, very few rock-pop hybrids before that time used STRINGS--at least, not without totally overorchestrating them and drowning the song! Sitar, zither, and much more came into play, as did voicings for oboe, clarinet, and lots more.
All the while, they improved on the art of hartmony in pop music, theretofore restricted to two-part warbling as in the case of the Everly Brothers, using three or four voices to build a tonal tapestry.
PLUS--in that short period of time starting with The Quarrymen who each knew some chords and who brought in young Scouseman George Harrison because he actually knew how to play LEAD, all four Beatles learned not only how to better their guitar playing, but they also learned bass, piano, mandolin, banjo, and several other instruments. This is not an especially easy feat.
With Martin's help, they singlehandedly (or eight-handedly) provided the greatest advances in recording and musicmaking technology since Les Paul and Leo fender electrified the guitar, inventing effects, loops, new recording techniques, and more--a cumulative advance which would not be equaled until Jimi Hendrix's collaboration with electronic wizard Roger Mayer some years afterward.
Aside from the artistic side, the Beatles brought some OTHER new angles into the rockstar field: The Artist as Entrepreneur. Even with Brian Epstein steering them, the four still held a great deal of control over what they actually DID. If Elvis had decided he wasn't going to play live anymore, Colonel Parker would likely have stuck him on the same electric plate he once used to make chickens "dance" at carny shows.
They retained the rights to themselves and their songs. And though Apple (their multiarmed business corporation; not that of Jobs and Wozniak) failed as a whole, the Apple Records label did rather well, and launched several careers.
They made movies which weren't simply "plug in the boys, shake some hip, and do a song." They later PRODUCED movies.
Like them or no, their innovations into rock and pop simply cannot be denied.
(And I don't much care for Sir Paul, either.)
AND IT'S 1-2-3, WHAT'RE WE FIGHTIN' FOR?: I was going to point out that there would have been no Pol Pot if not for Kissinger's secretiove decision to bring the conflict to Cambodia, but Brian seems to have admirably done so already.
DAVID: Banana Splits ... delta blues. I may well be ill.
Alex K.: Great news (although the appeal process will likely drag)! Me, I don't see anything wrong with downloading songs for free off the internet--but that's because the only songs I've ever downloaded have been songs which were offered BY THE ARTISTS for free. I don't swap, and I don't steal. I may, in the fullness of time when I've upgraded my technology, "rip" songs off CDs I own to be able to play them for myself on Mp3, but that's different.
JAY: Watch it now--Teflon Eddie's my guy. Problem is, the electorate of the state is probably going to do a Jim Florio on him (Gov. Florio of New Jersey was roundly voted out of office after he pointed out that since the state was suffering a heavy deficit, some cuts had to be made in spending, and taxes might have to be raised. Rendell has hinted at the same thing. It worked here in Philadelphia when he was mayor, but that's because he and his team were actually able to lift the city OUT of its horrible economic doldrums.).
Frank wrote:
"Diana, keep being you"
Thanks Frank. But Frank? Heh, heh...You know there are, no doubt, a few people who read that who thought, "My god man, WHAT ARE YOU SAYING???" "She's a WITCH!!! Burn her!!!" "Burn her!!!" "Kill the witch!!!"
And stuff like that.
But really,(*sniff*) thanks. I needed that. (OR DID I?) (KILL THE WITCH!!!)
(No, really, thanks :=) )
Anyway...
Chuck wrote:
"Chuck
- Tuesday, January 21 2003 20:55:26
Diana,
Don't be scared Chuck. I'm really very very nice. okay? And look,I'm smiling...:=)
I'm not smiling. I'm laughing! I'm glad you took the puns in the spirit in which they were intended. My actual attitude toward any barbs launched my way is, "What are you gonna do? TYPE me to death?" Even if I got flamed by Harlan, I'd consider it more of an honor than something that would scar me for life. I'd also see if there was something in what he said. After all, he's been around twenty years longer than I have. He's probably learned a thing or two along the way.
Have no fear, I'm nowhere NEAR as delicate as I look.
Chuck"
I'm glad you're not really afraid of me. Why would anyone be?
Hey, did you ever see that movie MIB? There's this scene at the end (my favorite part) where Will Smith's character's fighting that giant cockroach? I felt like him today. Mostly, I was actually pretty much getting my ass kicked. But I was"fronting". I'm an idiot. I relate to that scene. I mean, that big bug has kicked Agent J's ass. It's leaving to go get in the other space ship. Will Smith's lieing there on the ground. It's over anywaY. Right? That's a relief. But NO. For chrissakes,HE GET'S BACK UP" He goes, "Hey, why you running? This party's just getting started" So dumb. So very very dumb. (But funny)
(My favorite line in the movie:
"My attitude is don't START nuttin' wont BE nuttin'")
But Frank? You said, "Even if I got flamed by Harlan, I'd consider it more of an honor" Why Frank? Unless the person you're "dealing" with is an asshole or something, getting into it isn't really cool. Of course, with asshole's it's different. Asshole's are the kind of people who START STUFF*. Assholes start bothering people who aren't bothering them. (you assholes know who you are) Getting into it with those kind of people can be honorable. Maybe. Then at least you're fighting the bad guys. Then, even if you get your butt kicked, at least you got it beat in the process of trying to do the right thing.
Maybe you meant you figured if H.E. was "flaming" you, you probably deserved it? In which case you'd have been being an asshole just prior to that. Nothing honorable in that. Unless you can see the error of your ways from having been confronted by someone you respect, and then QUIT being an asshole right after that. If you don't happen to be the kind of person who checks themselves before anyone has to speak to them, maybe such altercations could then be educational. Maybe that's what you meant. That would make sense. I know you weren't trying to suggest Harlan Ellison is an asshole. (OR WERE YOU?)
Okay. I was just kidding. I know that's not what you meant.
(OR DID YOU?)
Okay I'll stop doing that now......(or will I?)
(Another funny part in MIB is where Will Smith has just shot this cardboard child right between the eyes. Zed asks him why he felt little Tiffany had to die, Will Smith says,"You know I'm thinking, you know, eight year old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters this time of night, with quantam physics books, she about to start some shit Zed"..."Or do I owe little Tiffany an apology?" God, that's so funny)
Anyway,finally, you wrote:
"Have no fear, I'm nowhere NEAR as delicate as I look" That's good to know.
I don't think I'm tough at all personally. I just get mad sometimes.
Diana
Brian,
Yeah, well, weather I reread your original post or not "unsupported by history _or_ reason" still seems a bit muddled to me; but " the antiwar movement bears no responsibility for their having happened" I follow. I wasn't misinformed on this particular point because I DO know about Nixon's secret bombings; they'd exceeded anything dropped in Vietnam before. Insidious.
Yet, I'm not sure if that necessarily lessens the validity of my own point...that those protesters (late 60's/early 70's) didn't seem to consider the unspeakable violence that was by now awaiting the Cambodians when they were crying for peace. Didn't necessarily have to be the Khmer Rouge. Many South Vietnamese most likely would have seen prison sentences and executions in a Stalin/Maoist style regime (China may have had differences with the Soviets but watching political enemies and imprisoning anyone who spoke their minds was a shared preference). WE would have peace; the Cambodians would not. Nothing misinformed about that, though you're more than welcome to bring more facts to it. Apart from that I do follow your point; that's assuming the aftermath would have been "peaceful" for the South Vietnamese without Nixon's escalation. I don't think it would have been; may not have been as bad as the Rouge...but I think it would have been pretty bad regardless. Then, again, what wasn't being disclosed to the protesters (what did they call it? The "credibility threshold"?) was included in my argument as well.
I agree with you that our involvement - with village attacks and all - led to what followed. But we needed to pull out years earlier. By this late time - even before Johnson left, I believe - what awaited South Vietnam was largely in place. If I'm wrong there correct me. If I'm right it raises the question again, did protesters consider this problem or did they just figure a Communist regime would be a happy, peaceful Shangri-la for all?
It had become SUCH a complicated mess. Whether we'd left or not, tragedy was set.
I'm embarrassed to admit I believe it came down to this: we HAD to leave; we were murdering millions. But the protest groups - crying for peace - needed to concede it was peace for US. Not the South Vietnamese (unless one considers imprisonment, torture, and surveillance living in peace).
Barney:
I wish I could be as sanguine as you about shrub's future political fortunes in time of war. I know it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but historically, voters tend to stick with a President who's in the middle of a shooting war: Lincoln, FDR, Nixon, etc.
Okay, of course there's LBJ, but that's because he was lying through his teeth about going to war: there is no war, we're not going to war, we're not in Vietnam -- not really, he kept saying, until the TV cameras and body bags got too numerous. But if a President SEEMS to be vigorously prosecuting a war, the people tend to stick by him, for a good long time. I think if Nixon had been able to make it LOOK like he was winning, Americans would have stuck with him longer; as it was, a domestic scandal was what really brought him down.
There seems to be a tendency to stick with a horse once it has gotten you halfway into the river (or the mudhole!). A lot of Americans respond to this "support our boys" horseshit, even if it means supporting our boys in a geopolitical power and energy grab right into the mouths of other people's guns (many of which we and our friends sold to the enemy; a WW2 conscientious objector friend told me a story an uncle had related to him about being in the trenches in WW1 and getting the sudden and sobering realization that the ammo being used by les Boches was made by the same manufacturer as that used by the Americans). In the wrong context, "support our troops" sounds like "cheer on the hunting dogs, even though they're headed for quicksand."
What really worries me is the damage that will result domestically. Today's news was all about the 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, and anti-abortion plans to keep pushing the legislative and judicial agenda. All it may take is one more Supreme Court justice, folks, and we're gonna be in a real mess back home. . . .
Busy day here in Webderland!
Reliving (or reviling) the Beatles and Vietnam while worrying about the new war.
Ed Rendell was sworn in today as our new governor. Already the street corners are lined with slot machines tended by prostitutes. There's a million dollar gubernatorial ball in progress down at the Farm Show Complex where the smell has barely lifted from the Annual State Farm Show and 2000 pounds of shrimp occupy a freezer that, until yesterday held frozen pretzels and corn dogs and scrapple. About a thousand self-important bureaucrats are dressed up and feeling more important than God tonight. I know. I met a bunch of them, the whining, pinheaded shits.
I couldn't get near town without seeing armed troops at blockades a quarter-mile from the site. I could walk in unnoticed, but I couldn't drive through to get across the river.
Now, I don't know when it happened but it's starting to really piss me off. The name of my state (well, Commonwealth) is Penn- SYL-vania. Penn's Woods as any school kid knows. Unfortunately every time I hear a politician say it, it comes out PENN SIV ANYA. Tom Ridge, Ed Rendell, Mike Fisher, Arlen Specter...they forget the "L" and I would think that if you help govern the state, you should KNOW HOW TO FRIGGING PRONOUNCE ITS NAME!
I know, I'm turning into that sixty year old who writes the newspaper every time the Bumpus hounds come round and shit on his lawn.
Welcome to Harrisburg, Gub'ner Ed.
Rob, I must point out two mistakes: one mine, one yours.
When I typed "unsupported by history of reason" I'd made a typo. It was meant to be "unsupported by history _or_ reason." This doesn't change much, but since Rob made an effort to requote the exact words, I had to point this out.
But Rob reposted those words while msirepresenting my position entirely. Rob, you seem to think that I'd said that the mass murders by the Khmers were "unsupported by history or reason," i.e., that I'm denying that they took place. Nothing can be farther from the truth, and I urge you to reread my note.
What I'd actually _said_ was "this business about the "killing fields" _being a millstone on the neck of the antiwar movement_ is pretty widely held, even though it is completly unsupported by history or reason." (Okay, I did correct two typos, but they're not important.)
I hope the distinction's obvious. I never said that the mass murders never happened. I said that the antiwar movement bears no responsibility for their having happened.
Actually, Chomsky went through something like this. He'd done a book review in 1977 of some works regarding Cambodia, where he expressed some skepticism about some of the accounts, and discussed how even the least documented accounts were widely circulated in the U.S. press to discredit the antiwar movement. Perhaps not surprisingly, he was denounced as a "Khmer apologist," even by people who supported such _genuine_ Khmer supporters as Carter and Reagan.
On to weightier matters: Iraq.
What the hell, the horse is still breathing.
I still have grave doubts about invading Iraq, although I supported Desert Storm. I just don't think we need to do it again. In the first instance, Saddam had committed a naked act of agression after finishing with the war with Iran - a consequence of his naked act of aggression against that country. Didn't seem he'd stop there. I think there would have been long-term consequences if we didn't boot him out of Iraq then.
Now, there has been no act of aggression on his part, which I'm sure causes him to cry himself to sleep at night. However, we do have him bottled up, and his ability to invade his neighbors has not recovered enough for him to be a real threat. We need to do a body cavity search for any bio or chemical weapons, and I think putting him under enormous military pressure is the only way to get it done.
I just don't think we sould invade. Going into Baghdad would be a whole new can of worms. I think we should be damn careful about opening it.
And Rob's Lew Ayers story reminded me of a letter to the editor I read about ten years ago from a man who couldn't understand why they were keeping poor old Rudolph Hess in prison when all he was guilty of was trying to end a bad old war. He was not a skinhead neo-nazi. Just a doofus. Some people just don't see the whole picture. That is what I think Rob was getting at.
Chuck
Just one of the Seven Faces of Dr. Tao
Diana,
Don't be scared Chuck. I'm really very very nice. okay? And look,I'm smiling...:=)
I'm not smiling. I'm laughing! I'm glad you took the puns in the spirit in which they were intended. My actual attitude toward any barbs launched my way is, "What are you gonna do? TYPE me to death?" Even if I got flamed by Harlan, I'd consider it more of an honor than something that would scar me for life. I'd also see if there was something in what he said. After all, he's been around twenty years longer than I have. He's probably learned a thing or two along the way.
Have no fear, I'm nowhere NEAR as delicate as I look.
Chuck
Frank,
Some soldiers were spit upon, some weren't. I have in my hand a collection of letters compiled by columnist Bob Greene, entitled "Homecoming," of which the fiurst section is "Yes, It Did Happen...It Happened To Me." There are also sections of veterans who never received anything less than the best of treatment, stories of veterans who received worse, and some vets who received completely normal treatment when they came home. There were thousands upons thousands of stories, and spitting was certainly not an urban legend.
It's actually quite useful a book to read before we start another unconscionable invasion.
Regards,
Joseph
Okay, I know this is a horrible lapse into cultural stereotyping but after watching UN reactions to Colin Powell's masterful impression of a sock-puppet I had to laugh. The French think we're being too pushy and the Germans [my peeps] think we're being too aggressive.
Ha ha ha!
Now I know we are have fallen deep into the rabbit hole of surreal and scary geo-politics.
Tonights news was how Saddam might blow his own oil fields like he did in Kuwait, which considering their size and scope could have some very shitty long term ecological and economic consequences, even for people who don't live in the middle east.
With 5 carrier groups in or heading for the region it's a foregone conclusion that we're going. Still don't see how this makes me any "safer" or the appointed president more electable.
If you set fire to one of the largest oil reserves in the world while simultaneously displacing a million or two registered republicans (ie. the US army reserves - who weren't all doing real well BEFORE they started dealing with supporting a family on a soldiers pay) you're not going to be winning over any hearts and minds. Throw in a couple of nutty reprisals and the spectre of Gulf War Syndrome redux, this assuming Saddam has those WMD's - 'cause shrub wouldn't lie unless it was about domestic substance abuse - and I think he's in for a reversal of fortune that will make his daddy seem like a populist dream.
You can eliminate the capital gains tax but if we're all shopping at Costco and Walmart and paying $3.50 a gallon for gas while watching the DOW and NASDAQ bounce along the bottom how many votes does that actually buy?
- Barney
Hey Lynn, it's been a while, hasn't it? I really don't know what my kids think of Iraq; they never bring it up. I will take an informal poll tomorrow and let you know. I have to tell you, talk of the draft made my blood run cold. They are still babies!
As for Saddam: I agree. In a perfect world, I think he should go to jail, not pass GO, etc. However, it's not a perfect world. Might it be worth it to send him into exile if that means no American boys have to die, if it means the people of Iraq will be free of his tyranny? I remember all too well how The Gulf War missed the mark on removing him, and I'd hate to see that happen again. War with Iraq is not a promise of a Hussein-free Iraq; what it does promise is lots of dead people. I'm wondering what the lesser of the two evils is?
Verizon has been ordered to identify a pirate who has been "swapping" songs on their service. This could become an important decision in cases like Harlan's. Read it at http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=575&u=/nm/20030121/wr_nm/tech_music_dc_3&printer=1
Jon Stover suggested:
> Hmm. Looks like it's about time to hold hands and have
> a groovy love-in like the Banana Splits.
Good idea! I have their first album on vinyl, too. Aside from the famous theme and the "Tra-La-La Song," there's a decent acoustic delta blues-lite called "In New Orleans" which I've used to stump music friends in blindfold tests.
As for the thread going on between Cindy and Frank, I have just one word to contribute:
Fragging.
Brian,
"Prior to the U.S.'s bombing of Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge was a small sect that operated mainly in the rural and jungle areas of Cambodia. But the U.S. bombing managed to bring a great deal of ruin to Cambodia-- farms were destroyed, food supplies were disrupted, rice harvests were ruined, refugees flooded into cities where resources were already taxed beyond their limits.
When a society is disrupted to that degree-- and the secret bombing of Cambodia was not confined to the border, but was applied throughout the country-- the most ruthless elements are most likely to seize power. The Khmer Rouge were responsible for an estimated 1.4 million deaths-- but they would never have achieved that dismal record if the U.S. hadn't ruined Cambodia in the first place."
Absolutely.
By all means give the topic dimension and scope. That's what I'm attemting. I'm not trying to discredit the 60's peace movements; I'm pressing with questions I think are legitimate to get at the realities (and relevance to today).
During their two-year stay in Vietnam back in the 50's, the French laid the groundwork for a democratic government under the leadership of temporary President Ngo Dinh Diem. I need to do much more research about that period - I don't know much - but I seem to recall a great deal of corruption under Diem. It lay the groundwork for what was to follow. But THIS was the critical time the U.S. had to study its involvement - what role we would play there. Once we went beyond a point in that involvement the course was set for the kind of instability and tyranny you described. I agree; we shouldn't have been there. But by the time the peace movements were louder than ever in the late 60's the outcome was inevitable. By this time singing 'all we are saying is give peace a chance' could not have been a possiblity in Nam. For us, yes. Not for the Cambodians.
I must be up front with you, though: to say, "the "killing fields" are "unsupported by history of reason" I think borders on the ludicrous. First hand accounts by the late Dr. Haing Ngor and Dith Pran alone confirm this. Look: much of the peace movement was COMPLETELY in the right (John Lennon remains one of my greatest inspirations - AND the artistry of the Beatles. Lennon remains on my wall with Einstein and Bruce Lee and Picasso's work!); but no one (not even ME!!!!!!) has the facts straight 100% of the time. No one has a monopoly on wisdom. To put it another way, every now and then ALL of us are wrong sometimes.
I'm asking you to legitimize your line "unsupported by history of reason", not to mention clarify; support the argument (and I don't mean referring us to a terrific book on the subject or a "right on!" web site). Support it with facts. By all means, I encourage you to bring more light to the subject. I have no desire to take away credit where credit is due.
David,
My lack of respect towards the fab four has no reason - it is based on unreasoned emotional bigotory. Why waste words with reasoned arguements against me, I admit it. I have no rational reasons to like the band or much of their music.
And its not Yoko Ono who I dislike... its Paul McCartney.
Paul McCartney and his connection with Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts...
(Snobs)
Paul McCartney and his support for all scientific research involving animal experimentation be banned... Not cosmetic, all.
(Note - For the life of me, I cannot understand the mentality of animal rights supporters who will care more for the well being of animals and show no concern on the plight of their fellow human being. The individuals I've met give little thought on science, research but yet are so happy to threaten health professionals with physical violence like a bunch of rabid pro life supporters. True there are decent arguements against animal experimentation but show me a happy monkey and I'll show you a patient getting anti-retroviral drugs for HIV, thanks partly to research on SIV).
Heck, George Harrison had Handmade Films, I can appreciate what he did. Ringo Starr produced and appeared in some really weird movies, I can appreciate him. I can't blame John Lennon for being posthumously added in that irritating mobile phone ad where he was pasted over the lone figure blocking the tanks in Tiammaen Square. Talk about tasteless though.
And if any of you still feel a need to defend Sir Macca, I present to you his Citizen Kane opus "Give My Regards to Broad Street".
FAQ
Hmm. Looks like it's about time to hold hands and have a groovy love-in like the Banana Splits.
Cheers, Jon
Rob made a lengthy post regarding the legacy of the Vietnam War. In that note, he included a long paragraph about the reign of the Khmer Rouge over Cambodia. In this section, Rob stated that:
"But back in the states protesters were singing, "All we are saying is give peace a chance". Peace for whom? I don’t believe they stopped to ask themselves that. It sure as hell didn’t mean peace for the Cambodians. What they MEANT was simply putting an end to the blood on U.S. hands, disregarding the genocide that would follow in Nam. What did they think? That the North Vietnamese would embrace their "southern brothers"? It would be a genocide driven by a fervent ideology and millions were to die."
This is another example of the revisionist history that gets circulated about the Vietnam War, mainly to try to discredit the noble effort of the antiwar movement. Here's some much-needed historical background.
Prior to the U.S.'s bombing of Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge was a small sect that operated mainly in the rural and jungle areas of Cambodia. But the U.S. bombing managed to bring a great deal of ruin to Cambodia-- farms were destroyed, food supplies were disrupted, rice harvests were ruined, refugees flooded into cities where resources were already taxed beyond their limits.
When a society is disrupted to that degree-- and the secret bombing of Cambodia was not confined to the border, but was applied throughout the country-- the most ruthless elements are most likely to seize power. The Khmer Rouge were responsible for an estimated 1.4 million deaths-- but they would never have achieved that dismal record if the U.S. hadn't ruined Cambodia in the first place.
The effects of the U.S. bombing didn't get very much play in the U.S press. But, within weeks of the Khmers seizing power, accounts started popping up of attempts to exterminate up to seven million people. (Many of these early accounts were circulated by the now-Communist government of Vietnam, and others were unsupported by actual evidence, as the country had been pretty much sealed off.) Within months, the U.S. news media was presenting accounts of mass murders, even while claiming that the massacres were "ignored." This was _before_ reliable and verifiable accounts of mass murders were available.
So, when the U.S. was responsible for ruining what was once a stable society, there was nary a word-- but when an ostensibly Marxist enemy takes over, and may or may not be murdering hundreds of thousands, the atrocities are trumpeted from the rooftops. And from the very beginning, the accounts of the killing fields were cited to demonstrate some kind of wrong-headedness, or bad faith, on the part of the antiwar movement-- the people who'd opposed the Cambodia bombing in the first place.
It should be said that one of the few elected officials who _did_ call for military intervention in Cambodia was, believe it or not, George McGovern. And, when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia, in part to depose Pol Pot, the Khmers suddenly enjoyed diplomatic and material support from the Carter and Reagan administrations.
I'm assuming that Rob is simply misinformed, because this business about the "killing fields" being a millstone on the neck of the antiwar movement is pretty widely held, even though it is complete unsupported by history of reason.
For a very good discussion of this use of Khmer atrocities for domestic propaganda, I strongly recommend the relevant chapters in Chomskya nd herman's _Manufacturing Consent_, and William Shawcross's book _Sideshow_.
Faisal, your spew of hatred over the Fab Four is so heated it makes me wonder if something is at work beneath the surface. Were you once assaulted by a Beatle buzzed to the gills on gage, or trembling in an LSD fugue? Did someone lock you in a room and spin "Sgt.Pepper" over and over and over until the blood burst from your eardrums? Did your sister reel in adolescent lust for Paul so strongly that fear gripped your heart? Are you the President of the Bobby Darin Fanclub, and HATE THOSE LIMEYS WHO KNOCKED HIM OFF THE CHARTS! Or is your bile actually misplaced hatred for that bitch, Yoko Ono? Damn that woman...
>I'm partial to the Carpenters as well as Led Zeppelin, the Modern Jazz Quartet as well as Gentle Giant, Tingstad & Rumbel as much as Black Sabbath<
I'd also recommend Robbie Fulks, the Velvet Underground, Miles Davis, and Britney Spears' first album, for starters.
BTW, Alison Krause does a very pretty version of the Beatles' "I Will."
Cindy, actually there were hundreds of Mai Lai type massacres during the war, but were not reported because they were so common-place--they took them for granted. Actually, the whole war was one big criminal enterprise; the Pentagon Papers gave that rat it's cheese. America had no buisiness attacking Vietnam in the first place. Kennedy first had the Air Force bomb civilian villages in South Vietnam in 1962: That was before any communist insurgence. America was aiding France, who at the time were Colonizing Vietnam, and the peasants wanted independant economic rights, and fought France for that right. Our government basically covered that attack up and made up the communist angle: The peasants were democratic Socialists at worse; not red diaper brigaders. The North was later able to use America's crimes as fuel for their power. They people gave in to the Communists, because they were the only ones willing to stand up to the Americans; who were randomly killing woman and children like it was some game.
Most of the peace movement wanted the solgiers home and had no ill feelings towards them; but they did hate the Generals and the top brass. That was intelligence.
---------------------
Brian, You are right, it is an urban legend about Peaceniks spitting on solgiers. The only old footage I ever see is hippies putting daisies in gun barrels.
------------------
Diana, keep being you.
Ah, the Beatles. At last, a controversy I can really sink my teeth into.
Faisal, you should know better than to take a gratuitous swipe at a cultural icon that big. It wasn't necessary; you can praise whatever singer or band you like and do your damnedest to get other people interested, without slamming the Beatles. At the very least you expose your ignorance, and at worst, you don't do your pet sound any good because the conversation immediately gets distracted away from your recommendation and onto your slam.
The world is big enough for all kinds of music. To play off one performer against another as if one must be chosen instead of the other is just stupid. We should welcome all types. (I'm partial to the Carpenters as well as Led Zeppelin, the Modern Jazz Quartet as well as Gentle Giant, Tingstad & Rumbel as much as Black Sabbath). Unless the music openly advocates molesting children or praises the rape of the environment or calls for war against the heathen, I suggest the worst one ought to say is "sorry, it ain't to my taste."
But you had to go and do it. Okay. Have at thee.
> The Beatles were the most over rated boy band in existence.
Were, or are? Let's stipulate both, and then ask ourselves: What other band had more effect on the world? What other rock band has been covered by more artists, from Bobby McFerrin to Deep Purple, from Sinatra to the Bobs? Leonard Bernstein quoted "And I Love Her" in the course of his mid 1960s lectures on musical structure. The respect of fellow musicians certainly has to count for a lot.
> Granted I like a few of their songs but to have their entire output
> inflicted as if its been written by the lord beggers belief.
"Inflicted" on whom? When? Where? I don't recall anyone on this board praising the Beatles to the skies of late, if ever. Therefore, you are "inflicting" your personal issues with the band, or the attention they receive somewhere, in the wrong forum. Take it to the source, please.
> Please defend Yellow Submarine, Paperback Writer or I wanna hold yah hand
> as well as a dozen others I can throw off the top of my head.
Funny you should mention "Paperback Writer." I was just thinking the other day about how fine a tune it was and something of a minor landmark in pop music to boot.
I will delightedly defend any of these at length, as well as many others you might like to name, although I'm not sure this board is the place. If you and some of the others here agree you're actually interested, I'll be happy to discourse on the unparalleled quality and influence of the Beatles as exemplified by the songs you've named or any of a dozen others. (I do not regard "their entire output" as exemplary, however, and will not defend such piffle and filler "Wild Honey Pie," "Mr. Moonlight," "Polythene Pam," or "Your Mother Should Know," for example.)
> The music community sycophantic fawning to this above
> average group sickens me.
Maybe you don't know that much about music. Or history.
> Its expected that everyone should love The Beatles,
Expected by whom? I don't expect it. Everyone has different tastes.
> well fuck them, I don't.
That's fine. I don't ask that you love the Beatles. I would expect that you might at least respect their achievement, however. Disliking something is insufficient grounds for saying it has no quality or didn't deserve to have the massive effect it had.
> I have stood in the middle of Liverpool City Centre and shouted out how
> much I despised the gang of four and barely escaped with my life.
Then you're a fool. I don't go to Roxbury and yell about what an asshole Louis Farrakhan is, I don't go to Stone Mountain to scream that the Civil War is over so get over it, and I have no plans to go to the Wailing Wall in order to express my loud opinions on where I believe the State of Israel has screwed up. Some opinions don't need sharing at inappropriate settings.
> There are other reasons why I don't like particular members of the band
> but we don't have a first ammendment and shitty libel laws.
It's become obvious that this is a personal thing for you, and not the result of a considered, fair-minded objective evaluation, because your grammar (and thereby your reason) has deserted your post. You meant to say that Britain does not have First Amendment protections for free speech and it DOES have shitty libel laws, but you wrote the opposite about libel.
This is probably not the place to get into separating the artist from the art, so I'll just say that it's pretty hard to find a creative person who lives up to his or her own ethical standards at all times, never mind the rest of us, so to hold a musician's character against his or her work is not a particularly strong rational position - it's mainly an excuse.
Some difficult questions about anti-war rallies (bear with me while I try to make my case)...
While I always support the noble plight of peace I try to weigh the necessities of the situation.
Several of you raised a valid point about Bush’s disingenuous arguments for an attack on Iraq: why do we plead the case of the Kurds NOW, when it seems convenient? We didn’t during the years Hussein razed their villages with chemical weapons (while posing that question let’s carefully keep in mind many countries ALONG with the U.S. - including Germany, France, Italy, Russia, AND Britain - sold weapons to Hussein: there’s a ton of dirty underwear to go ‘round. That, of course, doesn't mitigate the hypocrisy the U.S. is waving right now to make its case. Unfortunately, the U.S., interfering with other societies for corporate interest, has often undermined any particularly noble intentions in foreign policy; the Bush administration - obviously determined to use ANY front to legitimize an attack - has made the Iraq issue a curious stray from the War on Terrorism: I would wager if the inspectors announced today that Iraq were clean of all weapons Bush would insist otherwise, contrary to all evidence). Where is the indisputable evidence of Iraq’s ties to terrorism? What happens to the civilians of Iraq when we attack?
I agree with the war protesters on these points. BUT...while I would hold leaping into an attack on Iraq - I don't care to see the U.S. attempt to stretch its arm of corporate Imperialism (what Bush is about) in the Middle East again (my memory of what eventually happened in Iran remains) - I approve of our building presence there and the inflexible tone we’re using with Hussein. I believe this instrumentality to be absolutely necessary (the justification being he's broken international law and UN resolutions and had years to do what he chose with weapons programs). The years have told us the despot is a poker player: he bluffs, he tests, he bullshits, he mocks while he murders. "Compliance" from Iraq has been a childish unbroken chain of partial forthrightness followed by deception; a grand show of ‘The Boy Who Cried Wolf’. The sad, expensive reality is direct action (short of an actual attack until genuinely warranted) is the only language Hussein will respond to. The ONLY language.
I have not always agreed with Pacifist anti-war movements and I have to raise what might be considered difficult questions about them historically:
Do you know in WWII the actor Lew Ayres, who starred in ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT, was a peace activist (a religious pacifist, in fact), remaining true to the voice of his movie a decade earlier, and refused to fight? He protested our involvement in WWII (he wound up helping the service through another means, I can't remember what that was). He was well-meaning but simplistic, perhaps short of facts he needed to judge things better (Nazi death camps, for instance). Since diplomatic measures had been taken with Hitler prior - his having mocked them all - a peace movement, as we know, would have handed the Nazi’s the world on a platter.
On to Vietnam: Twenty-five years ago, two weeks before the fall of Saigon, the Cambodian capital city of Phnom Penh fell to the Khmer Rouge, beginning the period known as "the Killing Fields." Did you ever see the news footage of that time when the North Vietnamese were moving in after the U.S. pulled out? The madness began as soon as the city fell. Shortly after their victory, the Khmer Rouge forced the evacuation of 2 million people from the city to the countryside on foot. The wounded were forced out of hospitals; some of them were wheeled out on hospital beds. What appears in the footage alone is horrible to watch. Incredibly sad…how desperately civilians were pleading to be lifted out of there. But back in the states protesters were singing, "All we are saying is give peace a chance". Peace for whom? I don’t believe they stopped to ask themselves that. It sure as hell didn’t mean peace for the Cambodians. What they MEANT was simply putting an end to the blood on U.S. hands, disregarding the genocide that would follow in Nam. What did they think? That the North Vietnamese would embrace their "southern brothers"? It would be a genocide driven by a fervent ideology and millions were to die. They probably didn’t consider it because they didn’t KNOW. But since those of the youth movements had aligned themselves with figures like Castro and Ho Chi Minh they didn’t consider inquiry: the leader of the Khmer Rouge, a Communist named Saloth Sar, who went by the nom de guerre "Pol Pot", according to a Sociology book I’m looking at here, "sought to reorganize a society to bring it backwards in time to a state of agrarian purity." The Khmer Rouge attempted to completely transform Cambodia overnight, by organizing the country into farming cooperatives, demanding total devotion to the state and wiping out any remnants of the old regime. That meant shutting off all contact to the outside world, eliminating loyalty to friends or family, emptying the cities, eliminating the Buddhist religion, and creating a fearsome central authority that punished any deviation with torture and death.
In retrospect, I begin to feel it isn’t our involvement in Vietnam that had been misguided but HOW we were involved. After the French left - and they’d already created a politically difficult situation there - we probably should have equipped the South (as we were doing) the way we’ve done with Israel and KEPT it that way.
I’ve come to feel, at times, peace protests are run on incognizance, naivete, and simplistic ideology. No less can be said about gung-ho pro-war advocates. The answers rarely lie in the rigid extremes.
From McSweeney's: [In the coming days, we will be presenting teasers from the upcoming Issue No. 10: McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales.]
Ooooo! www.mcsweeneys.net
L.
PA~ Welcome back! I'm curious. What do your students think of this whole Iraq watch? Did they even notice before talk of reinstating the draft started?
Thanks,
L.
Faisal - I think part of the Beatle mystique that so deeply entrenches them is all in their timing, at least in the US - their look was rebellious, their early sound was a departure from a lot of the pop and R&B then dominating the charts, and they were played off as four young, average, down to earth kids. They could have sung soup jingles and gotten them airplay the way the buzz was stacked in their favor.
And although they didn't single-handedly change the face of popular music forever, if you hold up "Please Please Me" and "A Day In The Life" and "Come Together" side by side, the scope of their evolution is pretty amazing. They were also every bit as self-indulgent as Prince is today ("The Beatles" would have been a killer single album; as a double, it's flabby on a 'Jared-before-Subway' scale. And if that's not enough, I have only three other words: "Magical Mystery Tour" - the movie, I mean).
I enjoy the Beatles for what they were - four musicians who did very well playing the "What if we do it THIS way?" game. But for my money, pre-breakdown Brian Wilson was easily an equal to McCartney as a writer, and a better arranger. "Pet Sounds" is a masterpiece, and if "Smile" had beaten "Sgt. Pepper's" into the record stores in 1967, music history would be somewhat different. But Brian was crushed under his own psyche, "Smile" became the seizure-inducing "Smiley Smile", and we all know the rest.
No, the Beatles aren't gods. Now, Bowie on the other hand...
The level of vitriol and mad passion is nicely balanced by intellect at this forum. Just thought I'd mention that in light of recent articulate bursts of flame. ( Most other boards I've read recently are degenerative swamps of juvenilia. Drooling adolescent swamps of reactionary sexism and racism. ) Hey folks! Just noticed "McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales" edited by Michael Chabon and featuring "Goodbye To All That" by Harlan Ellison is going to be released in February!! Goody goody!
Lynn wrote:
"Lynn
When did this become alt.flame. - Tuesday, January 21 2003 11:10:35
Diana~
I know someone who needs a nap.
You don't make friends by pissing on the people trying to be nice. Behavior like that earns you monikers like "psycho-bitch" and "harpy".
Last bit of advice, take it or leave it: This is an anonymous electronic forum about Harlan Ellison. We come here because we have friends here who share our interest in Ellison and because we like each other, in all our quirks and flaws (Kuchombricksky anyone?). We don't come here to beat each other up. There are other places on the Web that specialize in that. If you want to beat someone up, even someone who you think has been 'nasty' to you (and believe me, I don't think you've seen anything close the Defcon 1 we call 'nasty' around here), you can take it somewhere else.
Respectfully, my warmest regards,
Lynn"
Again I'm saying bullshit. If you think my saying I think your last post to me was pretty much bullshit, and that you think I was pissing on you when you were trying to be nice, I guess I'm guilty. But I didn't see it that way.
I didn't think it really was all that nice. It came across as you telling me I should let this person say whatever nasty snarky shit he wants to. Because in his case it's just a cute little trick of some kind. Because he's your pal so it's okay around here if he does that.
It's okay for him to be as nasty and snarky and merciless as he wants...Is that your take on things? And me, I'm just expected to put up with it.
It's not okay with me. And how *I* feel matters, at least to me anyway. And how I feel is I don't feel like letting it slide.
In fact none of what's post quoted above was actually "nice" nor did I think your last post was nice , really but I was being polite.
"...believe me, I don't think you've seen anything close to the Defcon 1 we call 'nasty' around here)"
I guess I'm supposed to be scared to say anything else now because I haven't seen how bad it can get?
That wasn't advice, that was a warning, why not just be real about it? It wasn't nice to threaten me like that, or like when you suggested that if I didn't go take a nap, and just generally shut up I'd be called "bad" names like "psycho bitch" and "harpy" (you left out "relentless virago" and a few others I can think of but never mind)
How do you figure you were being "nice" and expressing your warm regards in all that?
And that "last bit of advice" thing, like you've done all you can do, tried all you can try, this is it...listen up or else...
So what comes next. Censorship? Deleting my posts? Harsher words? What?
You want my address so you can come to my house and (try to) kick my ass in person? Let's have an e-mail address, Lynn. I'll send you my home address and phone number. I'm not into being anonymous actually.
Whatever you're "last bit of advice" remark implied? Go for it. Okay? Because I'm not taking that shit from him. I don't think I deserved it. No matter who tells me they think I just should "or else".
Diana
FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD rocks. (Thus sayeth the Chylde of the 80's.) They aren't the Beatles, but I love 'em anyway.
Saddam doesn't deserve exile. Period. He deserves the little pink card that says "Go to Jail. Go directly to Jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200."
Saw CATCH ME IF YOU CAN this weekend and what a niftly little film that was. Very sixties. Even down to the yellowish cast of the entire film. Strangely uplifting. No violence, no cursing, no hurting anyone, just a story about a mixed up kid with no respect for social boundaries. And I think that Christopher Walken should at least get a Best Supporting Actor nomination for his role.
My 2p worth,
L.
Yeah, well, I left a message in the Dining Pavilion and realized, after it was posted, I wrote:
"there's a few people wiping their brows, I'm sure."
That SHOULD read "there ARE a few..."
I already kicked myself, don't waste the energy.
Damned if I'll break the 1 post/day rule in the pavilion anymore,
Bill
Diana~
I know someone who needs a nap.
You don't make friends by pissing on the people trying to be nice. Behavior like that earns you monikers like "psycho-bitch" and "harpy".
Last bit of advice, take it or leave it: This is an anonymous electronic forum about Harlan Ellison. We come here because we have friends here who share our interest in Ellison and because we like each other, in all our quirks and flaws (Kuchombricksky anyone?). We don't come here to beat each other up. There are other places on the Web that specialize in that. If you want to beat someone up, even someone who you think has been 'nasty' to you (and believe me, I don't think you've seen anything close the Defcon 1 we call 'nasty' around here), you can take it somewhere else.
Respectfully, my warmest regards,
Lynn
|| /dev/null
Lynn wrote:
"::sigh::
Diana, don't take it personally. Eric is what we call a tail-puller. He will seek out your buttons and push them, mercilessly. Don't take it personally because it's not"
Hi Lynn. I realize you're trying to act as peace-maker here or something. But that's bullshit. I have to say if someone chooses to try and get their unsavory, greasy fingers anywhere near my tail or my "buttons", I will take it personally...and I will try to bite the offending fingers off. This is just my way.
I accept criticism if I think it's valid, like when I came in here with that stupid antagonistic post at the beginning. I had nothing to say because I believed I was wrong to post it in here. I don't think it was appropriate, and since I started the shit, I believed I had to deal with it. No problem.
But when it's a matter of somebody taking cheap pot-shots at me, somebody just being nasty, which you've said this person is inclined to be, (of course you said it nicely) then from my point of view they've started the shit, and deserve to have to deal with it too.
You can't defend him by saying on the one hand that "he's a tail-puller", or a " merciless" button pusher, and then on the other hand try to say it's not personal and I should have mercy on him. That's just bullshit. Of course it's personal. And fuck him, he started it. Now he's run off like a weak little bitch...So I think I finished it anyhow. It doesn't look to me like your peace-keeping efforts were even necessary.
Diana
Alex, Rich....
The Beatles were the most over rated boy band in existence. Granted I like a few of their songs but to have their entire output inflicted as if its been written by the lord beggers belief. Please defend Yellow Submarine, Paperback Writer or I wanna hold yah hand as well as a dozen others I can throw off the top of my head.
The music community sycophantic fawning to this above average group sickens me. Its expected that everyone should love The Beatles, well fuck them, I don't. I have stood in the middle of Liverpool City Centre and shouted out how much I despised the gang of four and barely escaped with my life. There are other reasons why I don't like particular members of the band but we don't have a first ammendment and shitty libel laws.
FAQ
To Whom It May Concern:
Is it okay to post quotes in here? Credited quotes? Not whole volumes, or pages, just a few lines here and there, saying who wrote and where they wrote it and all, of course?
Just checking
Diana
Eric wrote:
"Eric
- Tuesday, January 21 2003 7:41:9
Diana, if you had any history on this board, which you don't, I'd think you know well enough where I stand with my nose. It's not up Ellison's ass, and certainly I've posted enough in the past to make that clear.
However, it's clear you are quite unbalanced, so I'll take my leave of THIS conversation"
COWARD!!!
You're SO weak! "That bitch is crazy" Right. Great. "The bitch is crazy" = "Nothing she says matters" ("What; are you on the RAG or something?" That's another one)
It's so NORMAL of you Eric, to call a woman who gets angry at you for something nasty you did/said "unbalanced". It's the common last retort from a man running off in fear. "She's crazy".
("Hey why you running, man?"..."She's crazy!")
You're, taking your leave of this conversation? Sure, if that's what you want to call it. I call it running off with you're tail tucked between your legs.
As for where you "stand" with your nose, I don't see how you can stand at all, bent over with your head up someone else's ass all the time like that.
LYNN: Yum indeed.
(And I'm for your Ultimate Bitchslap proposal.)
FAISAL: I'm sorry, but you're nuts. And I say this as someone who, seventeen-odd years back, insisted on wearing my oversized "FRANKIE SAY" t-shirt in the hospital rather than put on their stupid little gown. If it's the Beatles versus Frankie, then the Fab Four win hands-down every time--even on the songs they let Ringo sing.
P.A. BERMAN: Do a Google search on +"Donald Rumsfeld" +exile. The first few links you'll find will reference this month's Dan Rather interview with Rumsfeld, but you'll find that he's been making noise about this proposal for half a year or so.
Barmenator, long time no bicker. Welcome back. I too have my doubts about this "Saddam in exile" business. First, I don't think he'd go. I mean, who'd take him? Libya, probably, or maybe some country in South America...but I can't see him leaving the pretty sweet gig he's cooked up for himself to sit in some dacha with 50 bodyguards for the rest of life. Even WITH a pool and maid service.
I also wonder at who'd take over. Doesn't Saddam have sons? Can't imagine they're going to drop politics and go into retail, just to please the USA. And if Saddam really is such a law-breaking problem, shouldn't he be placed on trial? Isn't it a bit hypocritical to say we'd go to war to stop this tyrant, only to let him cool his heels in some lush bungalow with a Mediterranean view?
Eric wrote:
"I've strongly disagreed with some people here, like Frank Church, and have even publically feuded with others, like Brian Siano. But at one time or another, both those gentlemen, and just about everyone else here, has taken a gutsy stand or offered up a brilliance that has earned my respect."
Hey, I rock.
And Eric ain't done too badly either, ya know.
Faisal,
I must protest. I like(d) Frankie and even didn't mind when it was found out that Frankie was really one guy (what the fuckshisname, Hilary Johnson?), but to say that they're better than the Beatles??
That, sir, is poppycock.
By the way, I got their first CD when in Germany and it is different than the one I got in the United States to replace it (I had to get rid of it for various reasons that are behind me now). I distinctly remember there being some stuff on there about what to do during nuclear war. Music and then a voice intoning what to do with your grandmother if she died or somesuch like that. The US one I got years later didn't have any of that. Was I hearing voices at that time or am I just completely and utterly mistaken?
Hey. Haven't been here in a while, so I thought I'd stop in and say hi. Hi. It's colder than a witch's tit up here in the Great White North, but the flames in here always warm me up.
And again, I presume on your good graces to ask if anyone wants to see Tori Amos in Syracuse on 3/1. I have 2 Row S center orchestra tickets that I am selling them for exactly what I paid for them + shipping. E-mail me and feel free to pass on my e-mail to other folks. Rick, if it's not OK for me to post this, you can take it down with my apologies.
I was also wondering if anyone has heard anything more about the proposition that Saddam Hussein could be allowed to leave Iraq and go into exile to avoid a war. Is this really on the table? Is it a good idea? I would like to say YES b/c I am against war with Iraq, but part of me thinks of Mbutu in Switzerland with all his stolen booty, and then I like the idea less. I ask you, far better informed, and articulate people what your take on this is.
Thanks,
Bermanator
Lynn,
I always nursed the fantasy that Frankie Goes to Hollywood re-release the classic 'Two Tribes' and re-make the original video this time with Saddam and Bush bitch slapping each other while the United Nations roars along with the match.
"When Two Tribes go to war....
GO TO WAR!
GO TO WAR!"
(If any of you are unaware of FGOH, the best band to come out of Liverpool, yes - fuck the Beatles, go and grab their best of album immediately).
FAQ
http://digital.nypl.org/imagegate/newgate/index.cfm
The New York Public Library's Image Gate, a digital image database.
YUM.
L.
Lynn, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you are the soul of the board. Hope marriage is treating you....E
So I come here looking to escape the non-stop "Can-we-shoot-Saddam-yet?" commentary on the radio and news, hoping for a little light conversation on such topics as Kubrick, pedophilia, and the death penalty, and what do I get?
Flame war.
::sigh::
Diana, don't take it personally. Eric is what we call a tail-puller. He will seek out your buttons and push them, mercilessly. Don't take it personally because it's not.
Eric, full moon much? I reiterate, the term "fresh meat" is metaphorical! Don't make me get the choke chain.
{insert obligatory emoticon here}
L.
PS. I say we just take Dubya and Saddam and do Celebrity Death Match, maybe with the Bush Clan in one corner and ohIdunno, say Noriega and Marcos in the other corner as seconds. We could sell advertising to Nike. Maybe call it the Ultimate Imperialist Bitch Slap or something.
Diana, if you had any history on this board, which you don't, I'd think you know well enough where I stand with my nose. It's not up Ellison's ass, and certainly I've posted enough in the past to make that clear.
However, it's clear you are quite unbalanced, so I'll take my leave of THIS conversation.
Eric wrote:
"But hey, I'm not the board nanny"
Then he turns around and posts preachy nanny-ish stuff like,
" It's a lesson hard-learned, but one that is necessary, if Webderland is going to stay vibrant, and not become one of those sickly, fawning fan sites that riddle the Internet"
Like, now he thinks he's the, "Arbiter Of The Flames" or something. AND he's taking another, albeit sideways, dig at me. He's starting stuff again. Why? So I end up getting mad again? And end up wanting to call him a weak catty little posting bitch or some such? (Because that's what I think he is. Only I didn't say it yet)
He talks about not wanting this place to turn into a "sickly fawning fan site" and yet he's in here with his nose shoved so far up Mr. Ellison's (previously mentioned) ass that I think he's stopped noticing it's in there. I mean usually people at least have their heads up their own asses. Eric's got his up someone else's, and he keeps it in there pretty much all the time. It's a hell of thing to see, really. ("And a club soda for you, HE (*Master*)...I know you don't touch the stuff (slobber, drool, slobber)(when are you going to scamper up with his newspaper in your teeth? I love that trick)) It's amazing and wierd, like that hole in the ice at that lake in Minnesotta. It could become a regular tourist attraction. Maybe we can get some old guy to drag a bunch of mismatched couches in here and we can sell seat tickets. I can just hear the ladies from the tour bus now..."Well would you looky there! I wonder, how does he breath with his head up that other man's ass like that?"
I have to go get some coffee. Bye for now
Diana
Cindy: No problem. I think your ultimate quarrel is with Von Clausewitz, whose military philosophy requires very large groups of people (not that versions of the draft didn't exist before Von Clausewitz). The training camp sequence in _Full Metal Jacket_ is brilliant, I think, in dealing with the psychology that can produce both a My Lai and humans who are capable of killing. Atrocities are part of war, yes -- but limiting them, seeking to eliminate them, and punishing those who commit them would seem to be necessary for any military that ostensibly protects countries that pride themselves on freedom, democracy, and human rights.
The continued prosecution of the two American reserve pilots who bombed the Canadian soldiers strikes me as being a lesson that points to the other end of the spectrum in this issue -- they've been staked out to protect higher-ups, something bureaucracies like doing. Suggesting that the whole thing was caused by drug use was also pretty vile.
Of course, the US may have also accidentally bombed Glenn Miller, so what do I know.
Cheers, Jon
>Anyway, Eric started it. I've got witnesses. He was trying to pick on me.<
No dear, but as I previously posted, when one trends into the ludicrous, one is called out. Your Dear Diary entry to Ellison qualified.
Chuck wrote:
"Not that I'm afraid, or anything. Just don't hurt me.
Cringingly Yours,
Chuck"
What? Hey, I'm not tough. I just got mad for a few minutes. Ha ha. My son just said I'm like a little Incredible Hulk. With breasts. ("You wouldn't like her when she's angry") Anyway, Eric started it. I've got witnesses. He was trying to pick on me. I was only sticking up for myself.
I wasn't mad about the Tao thing. I thought it was funny. I was just going to post something like, "Chuck? Your Tao is starting to bum out my dharma..." which would have been funny too, and also would have been making a sort of subtle literary reference for someone to latch on to if they were clever. But then I fell asleep and forgot to post it.
Don't be scared Chuck. I'm really very very nice. okay? And look,I'm smiling...:=)
Diana
> would feel obligated to buy any one of them, or you, a drink at the local airport bar.<
And a club soda for you, HE...I know you don't touch the stuff.
>Have you all noticed that some of our best posters are people who got beat on when they first came here?<
There's definitely an adjustment period. Many come in here and post with a firehose for the first few months, having off at everyone and everything in sight, and then wondering at the fracas they've caused. I should know, I was one of them.
Webderland is filled with intelligent, opinionated people, who generally tolerate diverse ideas, but if you trend into the ludicrous, you will be called out. I myself have been tossed on the barbie many times, and some of those were well-deserved(sheer vanity prevents me from accepting ALL the roastings as just!)
I've strongly disagreed with some people here, like Frank Church, and have even publically feuded with others, like Brian Siano. But at one time or another, both those gentlemen, and just about everyone else here, has taken a gutsy stand or offered up a brilliance that has earned my respect. Whatever their opinions of me, I would feel oblgated to buy any one of them, or you, a drink at the local airport bar.
Rick Wyatt said, in a post that still makes me chuckle, that "people come in here and scream MY GOD THE FLAMES while liberally pouring on the gasoline." I laugh not just because it's funny and true, but because he was talking about me as much as anyone else at that time. It's a lesson hard-learned, but one that is necessary, if Webderland is going to stay vibrant, and not become one of those sickly, fawning fan sites that riddle the Internet.
Yours in the fray, Eric
Alex,
" I simply cannot BELIEVE that you cited Calley and My Lai as justification for the treatment returning G.I.'s were given."
I didn't justify anything. I didn't say it was the proper thing to do. I said "this was one of the reasons vets had to take shit", quite objectively. I'm just establishing WHY the coarse anger, however misguided, existed; the condition of disillusionment in a time of social chaos, the struggle for civil rights, assassinations, massive government misinformation, piling reports of Vietnamese civilians being massacred (and I don't mean JUST one report like My Lai, CINDY!) and low morale among both troops (along with a lot of narcotics in Nam) and Americans at home led to degrees of misjudgment among ALL groups.
In fact, a great deal of Leftist Rationalism was, frankly, undermined by the extremists: student protesters, impatient and idealistic, infusing their revolutionary movement with an almost quasi-religous tone (look: Left, Right, or Center teens are simply fulla shit, wading in naivete), some gradually becoming militant, brought detriment to the Progressive gains the country had been making. Once dissent had degraded into militancy - deviating from King's philosophy (I believe he and Robert Kennedy were the moral anchors of that time; when they were gone the protest movements spiralled out of control) - it was all over: the Right could take the country back and Nixon was able to grab the White House so he could turn it into a refuge for mobsters.
There were obviously many anti-war protesters who were not "spitsters". The majority, most likely. And I wasn't justifying the spitting. But I UNDERSTAND why it happened. I'm not SURPRISED it happened, given human behavior against a backdrop of turmoil and distrust. That was my point.
A CORRECTION AND AN APOLOGY: I'm sorry; I made an error in a previous post, saying that General Wesley Clark, former Supreme Commander of NATO Forces, had come out against war in Iraq.
The Clark of whom I was ACTUALLY thinking was former U.S. Attorney General (under LBJ) RAMSEY Clark, a longtime civil-rights and antiwar activist. Now I can safely go back to despising Wesley.
It's late, and I need to have my wits about me tomorrow, so I'll be brief.
Diana,
You kick ASS, girl! You are one durable dame. I'm glad you weathered the initial shitstorm and stuck around. I also hope you realize the "Tao" statements I made in previous posts were just bad puns and not aimed at you. Not that I'm afraid, or anything. Just don't hurt me.
Cringingly Yours,
Chuck
PS: Have you all noticed that some of our best posters are people who got beat on when they first came here? BOS, Lil' Washu (who tangled with Harlan, for God's sake) Zoe, etc. Interesting.
Eric wrote:
"Diana, you, and your Portugese ass (I'll reserve aesthetic descriptives until I've actually seen it), are welcome.
Speaking of said rump, I'm presuming that that's one characteristic, at least, that you and our patron writer don't share"
I think it would be immodest of me to brag on myself past a certain extent, but I will say my ass actually caused a traffic accident. It happened on Park Avenue. A man driving a UPS truck ran into the island that runs down the middle of that world famous thoroughfare, making a turn there while also trying to get a better look at my legendary behind. Men have written love sonnets about my ass, & painted pictures of it (and one man wanted to paint ON it, but he was wierd)
I think it would be inappropriate of me to comment much about Mr. Ellison's ass. He probably does have one. I don't believe any of his ancestors were Portugese though.
Diana
Jon,
You are quite right, that was some bone headed logic I used there.
I MEANT that we got youngsters-- a whole slew of young men thrown into a situation without a great deal of grown ups to lead and direct them. The influence of a mature person on a troop of young 18, 19--20 year old guys would have been a saving grace. I think a lot of horrendous episodes could have been bypassed if there had been a full grown man on the scene.
There.. now maybe that makes more sense.
Tomorrow I will tackle Brian's post.
:)
Stay warm, Jon! Here in Texas it SEEMS chilly at
58 degrees.
:)
Cindy
BRIAN: If there were a moral universe, yes. But ours is a universe which had Nixon in it. In addition to his other misdeeds, Tricky Dick was the one who ordered Calley released from prison, after he had been sentenced to life.
Re Returning Vietnam soldiers, atrocities, My Lai, and other related stuff.
One thing to remember about wartime atrocities is that they're an inevitable consequence of war. We take young men, and now young women as well, and throw them into an horrifically violent life or death struggle, for goals which are rarely for their direct benefit. When the laws of civilization are supended, and _especially_ in wars where everyone is a potential enemy, it shouldn't be surprising that there were kids in Nam who took ears as souvenirs, or that the skulls of Japanese soldiers were boiled clean and sent back to the States as gifts.
This isn't to say that we should simply accept this as an inevitable fact of life. We shouldn't, and the more soldiers who can marshall their senses of decency while in Hell, the better. But the point is to prevent them from being thrown into such situations in the first place. Thanks to our nominal leaders, not only are the lives of young men and women thrown away, but they're turned into animals beforehand.
And when we realize that such things are inevitable, the courage of the individual who will _not_ bend to savagery stands as an even greater example. We all know the name of William Calley. But do we know the name of Ron Ridenhour, the man who brought the My Lai massacre to the light of day?
What we should be angrier about are the official programs that are designed to create mini-Hells; for example, the My Lai massacre was nothing next to Operation Speedy Express, or Operation Rolling Thunder-- _official_ and wide-ranging efforts to make the Vietnamese suffer.
As for the accounts of antiwar activists attacking Vietnam vets-- you know, those tales of hippies spitting on returning "heroes"-- I look at them as urban legends. For one thing, it's extremely difficult to find any decent documentary evidence that it actually _happened_. You'd think with thousands of returning soldiers, homecomings, news photographers, snapshot cameras, and the like, _someone_ would have documented one of these "spitting" incidents.
In fact, the only documented incident of this sort occurred at the 1972 Republican Convention, where the Republicans spit on veteran Ron Kovic. Beyond that, it's mainly urban legend time: one has read about the incident, or knows someone else who it happened to, or claims first-hand experience that usually wouldn't stand up to scrutiny-- say, 20-year-old cranks who claim they saw it on the news on the day it happened.
Sure, it's certainly possible, and even likely, that it did happen somewhere to someone. There were idiots among the antiwar movement, of course. But why should such a weird incident _continually_ come up as an example of... well, something?
(Back in the 1960s, there was this fanmous billboard showing a cop carrying a small child in his arms. The kid is apparently dead, the the cop is weeping in grief. The caption reads, "Some call him pig." Same kind of propaganda, gang.)
There's no reason to assume that this near-apocryphal story was emblematic of the antiwar movement as a whole: in fact, the antiwar movement was responsible for GI coffeeshops and antiwar-vet organizations. Using this soldier-spitting legend as the exemplar tale of the movement is like citing Martin Luther King's marital infidelities as the be-all of his life.
So, I see no reason to try to link the apocryphal and malicious tale of protestors scorning soldiers, and some kind of judgement regarding atrocities.
And if this were a moral universe. Lt. Calley would have spent at least a decade or so in prison.
Cindy: You wrote "The most important and valuable lesson should have been that with the draft-- we get the ones who are not quick enough or well enough connected to slip the noose. We ended up with a bunch of boys who didn't have any business hunting rabbits with a gun let alone people."
OK, it's late, at least on my revised sleep schedule, but what you seem to be saying is that the people who were well-connected enough to skip out legally (Dubya, for one) or who got into occupations and/or education that exempted them from service or who left for Canada would be better soldiers and leaders of soldiers than the ones who went because of their quickness and/or connectedness.
There's a point in there about the draft putting people into combat who shouldn't be there, but the way you make that point is mighty strange, class-ist and elitist in the not-good-elitist sort of way. I'd tend to go with Heinlein's point (was it Heinlein's?) -- if you have to draft people to protect a democracy, then your democracy's no damned good anyway and not worth protecting. Quebec had to try to teach the rest of Canada the lesson of 'drafts are stupid' during WWI, and while it wasn't received well, it was a good point to make.
I mean, look at _The Deer Hunter_ -- those guys were all working class joes, and they knew where to point a gun and function in combat. Most of the time, anyway.
Cheers. And be glad you're in Texas -- it can't be as cold there as it is here (-16 C right now, which is about -400 F).
Jon
CINDY: I have a warped and rusted soul, actually. But thanks, nonetheless.
Here; a laugh for you:
http://www.earthbounddog.com/
ALEX JAY BERMAN,
You're such a damn leftie... but then you come out with something like this;
"I am as antiwar as they come. But had I been of age in that era, I would have gone to Viet Nam--maybe as a Conscientious Objector and medic; maybe as a regular soldier--for one reason only: To try and lessen the number of my friends who might be killed."
You SEE why I love you????
You're a LOVELY, LOVELY soul.
:)
Cindy
CINDY: I apologize for the use of the phrase "parroting"; that was a note I didn't want to strike.
But my feeling that we are wasting time, money--and most importantly, the lives of our soldiers and those of civilian Iraqis who have nothing to do with anything their army or government does--on what is essentially a politically-and-oil-interets-motivated con job.
And you will NEVER see me defame American soldiers sent abroad, no matter HOW immoral I believe their posting or orders to be. During the Gulf War, the sign outside my house read simply, "Bring Our Boys Home." Doesn't it strike you odd that people such as Ron Kovic, former NATO Supreme Commander Wesley Clark, and many others have been loud in their opposition to the administration's fixation upon Iraq?
(and note: This isn't an example of liberals siding alike; I despise Clark, by and large.)
But let's talk about sources. I never said, "It's from the government; why should we believe it?" Note that my earlier post cited reports by the Sate Department and the U.S. Senate. You told me to look at iraqwatch.com. Fine; I did, at length. And though there is much material of use there, there is a LOT of inference and uncited suppoosition. One of the most damning--to me, anyway--was that they talked about the two German engineers arrested last week for selling to Iraq cannon-boring equipment. Fine. But they went on to say (as has Britain's THE GUARDIAN and a few other sources I've seen) that said equipment "could be used" to make barrels for Iraq's al-Fao cannon.
Iraq doesn't HAVE an al-Fao cannon. The "al-Fao" is just another name for the "Supergun" dreamed up by Canadian artilleryman and engineer Gerald Bull. If Iraq wasn't able to produce the Supergun back in the Eighties when Bull was overseeing the project, when Iraq had a working industrial infrastructure, and had no sanctions of any kind raised against it--just how the hell are they supposed to be able to do so now?!?
And leave us not forget that the al-Fao would be big enough--if the barrels were somehow mysteriously completed despite the lack of industrial space and the lack of avaiable materiel--to be easily spotted by US satellites and surveillance flights.
I'm taking just one example here, just to illustrate that sources--even mine--can be undependable.
(By the by--the Iraqwatch website is administered by The Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control, a DC-based think tank. It's interesting to note, on their page, how much traffic Iraq--which has never successfully mounted a nuclear program, not since their one reactor was bombed by the Israelis in '82--gets, as compared to Pakistan and India, who have declared their own nuclear proliferation long ago, and North Korea, which in addition to verifying that it does indeed have nukes, it's more than happy to use them against any foreign interlopers.
Why, do you think, is there no www.northkoreawatch.com?)
"Oh, shit; we killed Saddam"? Fine and dandy. But why kill American soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians to do it, when we don't need to?
And another indicator that the indignation over that "bad man" is suddenly put on: Donald Rumsfeld--you remember, the guy who was the envoy? The guy who listed in his resume "reestablished diplomatic relations with Iraq"?--is now saying that if Saddam and his top staff all go into exile, that that will avoid a war--and might even exempt him from trial as a war criminal.
No war crimes?!? Wait--isn't this guy a monster? Isn't he the "evil bad man" rallying point around whom we've been dancing like a maypole?
I'm just seeing a lot of bullshit, Cindy.
*******BIG PAUSE BEFORE I ADDRESS THIS********
ROB: I simply cannot BELIEVE that you cited Calley and My Lai as justification for the treatment returning G.I.'s were given.
Bear in mind that we didn't even KNOW about My Lai until over a year and a half afterward. Remember, the chant was, "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many babies you kill today?" BEFORE we even knew such atrocities had ocurred.
Despite the coverup ordered by high-ranking brass such as Maj. Gen. Samuel Koster, a courtmartial was ordered--and would not have been if not for the efforts by pilot CWO Hugh Thompson, the man who ordered Calley and his men to cease their actions and who himself evacuated several of the surviving civilians, and G.I. Ronald Ridenhour, who served in a recon team and wrote the letter to the President, the State Department, the pentagon, and several members of Congress (one of whom, Rep. Mo Udall, pushed for an investigation).
To compare all Viet Nam veterans to the murdering bastards of C Company and any others who may have committed similar acts does a grave disservice to any and all who served.
I am as antiwar as they come. But had I been of age in that era, I would have gone to Viet Nam--maybe as a Conscientious Objector and medic; maybe as a regular soldier--for one reason only: To try and lessen the number of my friends who might be killed.
Cindy, claiming Jane is a reason we "lost" that shitstorm is just a cover for lashing out at an independent-minded woman. Jane Fonda has always attracted hostile attention...if that had been Peter Fonda in Hanoi, no-one would be saying anything now.
Sean Penn went to Iraq, and the press yawned. Attention and derisiveness from the right wing would have notched up considerably if Sean had been a she. Let's not forget how they pilloried Hillary.
AND NOW
Does anyone know WHY many Viet Nam veterans feel that Jane Fonda was the reason we lost the war in Viet Nam?
:)
Cindy
Yes Rob,
I learned about the My Lai massacre in Junior High. Only we were taught that an officer above Lt. Calley had instructed him to kill everyone-- and so the question was.. do we blame Calley for following a direct order or do we hold him accountable as a thinking human being?
I always believed that Calley's superior-- Medina, I think-- should have gone to prison right along side him...OKAY.. I reeeally thought they should have BOTH been treated to a firing squad.
The most important and valuable lesson should have been that with the draft-- we get the ones who are not quick enough or well enough connected to slip the noose. We ended up with a bunch of boys who didn't have any business hunting rabbits with a gun let alone people.
But the thing is THIS-- THEY WENT. The country called and THEY WENT and because THEY WENT we ALL owe them a debt of eternal gratitude.
A handful of mindless murderers is NOT ENOUGH for a society to shame a host of heros. That is what the majority of those boys were--HEROS, because when they were called... THEY WENT.
Cindy
>Thank you for giving me your permission to "venerate away". <
Diana, you, and your Portugese ass (I'll reserve aesthetic descriptives until I've actually seen it), are welcome.
Speaking of said rump, I'm presuming that that's one characteristic, at least, that you and our patron writer don't share.
Fondly, Eric
Cindy:
While I'm in a state of mind to post to you I thought of another thing I wanted to communicate. I suspect that at one point a while ago I may have INADVERTANTLY offended you, by mixing up some of your posts with ones from Lynn, and also, perhaps by seeming to fail to appreciate your kind posts to me. Like I just said though, if I did in fact offend you it wasn't intentional. And I did appreciate your kindly messages, even if I failed to respond in kind. I don't choose to go into my personal problems in this or any other forum, but I guess I could have maybe at least tried to make it clearer at the time that I was upset, and that I was VERY distracted by things having nothing to do with anyone involved at this message board. There is of course no way for anyone posting here to know what's going on with me at any given time unless I choose to go into it. I don't choose to go into it. But I will say I was deeply distressed, and mostly just posting here to distract myself. So if I unintentionally offended you at that time or anytime I am sorry. You come across as a sweet person. You didn't do anything to deserve me being (albeit unintentionally) rude to you. I can be a bitch sometimes, but I wasn't trying to be one then.
Bye for now
Diana
Diana,
I was just teasin' too.
We're buddies you and me.
:)
Cindy
Jay,
I know you're not doggin' on me.
:)
That's why I love it here-- we can all disagree and say what we think without acrimony.
You wrote;
"Where's Osama? Where're his henchmen? Never mind since Saddam Hussein is the big bad danger-boy once again. Screw Arafat, who is supporting Saddam's regime. Screw Khadaffi, who is sucking up with billions in restitution for knocking a plane out of the sky over Scotland. Screw North Korea, Syria, Somalia, Rwanda, and any other dictatorship that is an equal threat to our troops and civilians abroad...Saddam MIGHT SOMEDAY get his hands on some plutonium! "
You ARE right about those other miscreants... we can't afford to dismiss them as yesterday's leftovers. We are still looking for Osama.. we're just expaaaaaaaaaaaaanding our project to include Saddam. Hell, we ALL knew they should have cut the head off that snake the FIRST time they had a shot at him. It was wrong to let him fester. I suppose that is being factored into the equation now-- a little late, but nevertheless.
Meantime-- the old spanking adage applies here too; Get one and the whole bunch benefits from it. They can't think their days aren't numbered if they see us eliminate Saddam. Good incentive.
I do feel the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end when I read government documents clearly stating that Saddam has put out a call for a "Nuclear Mujahidin" to "defeat the enemy". The CIA also indicates that once Saddam is hooked up abroad with a supplier of "fissile material" he'll have a nuke within a year. I think common sense would dictate we'd best tend to this mess before it is beyond our control.
Remember how uninformed the public was during the Cuban missile crisis? Do you ever wonder if there might be some of that going on here as well?
I agree that we shouldn't ever just take big Daddy Washington's word for it that we're in danger; but the signs do indicate that our feet might be getting perilously close to scorching.
I see what you're saying though-- it looks like an odd place to start when there are so many snakes that need the lawnmower.
:)
Cindy
Cindy wrote:
"Don't pay no nevermind to her-- you just keep on talkin'. Sweet things are balm to my weary soul... as are you.
:)
Cindy"
Cindy,
Unlike yourself I think Frank took my post to him in the spirit it was intended.
I think.
Maybe.
It's hard to say,
I stuck a smilie face in the last post. To him.
I don't really have any vested interest in whether or not he keeps it in his shorts, actually. That was just a joke, see? As far I'm concerned you two can decide together where, if anywhere, he puts it, or keeps it.
Go crazy.
Besides, I wasn't actually thinking about how you might feel about what he'd said, I was just responding to the post as an abstract. I was talking to him about it. I'm sure you're more than capable of fending off any unwanted attention you might get, anyway, if such had been the case. Right? You're tough.
Diana
Cindy wrote:
"Don't pay no nevermind to her-- you just keep on talkin'. Sweet things are balm to my weary soul... as are you.
:)
Cindy"
Cindy,
Unlike yourself I think Frank took my post to him in the spirit it was intended.
I think.
Maybe.
It's hard to say,
I stuck a smilie face in the last post. To him.
I don't really have any vested interest in whether or not he keeps it in his shorts, actually. That was just a joke, see? As far I'm concerned you two can decide together where, if anywhere, he puts it, or keeps it.
Go crazy.
Besides, I wasn't actually thinking about how you might feel about what he'd said, I was just responding to the post as an abstract. I was talking to him about it. I'm sure you're more than capable of fending off any unwanted attention you might get, anyway, if such had been the case. Right? You're tough.
Diana
Cindy,
" Didn't we learn over the years how much pain those boys who went to Viet Nam packed along with their guns and equipment because of the bullshit back home? WE sent them over there and then treated them like criminals, spewing opinions on the damned shame it was for them to be involved in a war that didn't have any business being."
This is one of the reasons returning vets had to take shit from an American public that had been lied to by Johnson and Nixon for nearly the span of a decade...
the My Lai Massacre:
On March 16, 1968 American troops under the command of Lt. William Calley entered the village of My Lai lay in the South Vietnamese district of Son My, poised for engagement with the elusive Vietcong. As the "search and destroy" mission unfolded it soon degenerated into the massacre of over 300 apparently unarmed civilians including women, children, and the elderly. Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped, and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.
Cindy,
The problem is that we're being distracted to believe that Saddam could do such a thing while he's pent up in Baghdad under constant watch. Meanwhile, there's a six-foot six-inch Saudi carting a dialysis machine around with a big entourage that we can't find who would LOVE to set off a dirty bomb at the Super Bowl. It's distraction politics. We're so busy rejecting or supporting some token easy-to-manage war that we've forgotten that we've lost the scent of the man who killed 3000+ people little more than a year ago! Isn't it amazing how shallow and fickle we are as a culture? Isn't it horrible that, not long ago, we needed a telethon of A-Listers to support us and help us recover from our profound loss and now... WAG THE DOG WAG THE DOG!
Where's Osama? Where're his henchmen? Never mind since Saddam Hussein is the big bad danger-boy once again. Screw Arafat, who is supporting Saddam's regime. Screw Khadaffi, who is sucking up with billions in restitution for knocking a plane out of the sky over Scotland. Screw North Korea, Syria, Somalia, Rwanda, and any other dictatorship that is an equal threat to our troops and civilians abroad...Saddam MIGHT SOMEDAY get his hands on some plutonium!
It's a shame that US troops have to move so the administration can pretend it's doing something in the 'war on terror'.
You know I'm not ranting at you, Cindy. :) I just hate it when a Bush overcompensates for stupidity or uninspired leadership by moving troops and inventing new heirs to Satan's throne.
FRANK CHURCH,
Don't pay no nevermind to her-- you just keep on talkin'. Sweet things are balm to my weary soul... as are you.
:)
Cindy
We have done a great deal as a nation that we had no business doing. We have done some unthinkable and unconscionable things because we have human beings at the helm of our government. We have sold weapons of all kinds to nations that had no business with them. We have mucked about in the mire of other governments. We have put hits out on foreign heads of state and we have manipulated the workings of their governments. We have covered for criminals in our own military. We have sold our collective souls to the devil for oil more times than anyone could document. We have set murderers free to walk our streets and we have allowed communist CHINA to have a hand in our election process. We have SHARED West Nile virus, Bubonic Plague, Anthrax and the scourge that is the Small Pox virus with nations who are NOT our allies. We have allowed a Chinese national full run of the kitchen at the Los Alamos New Mexico Nuclear Lab. We have opened our borders to the world to accept their diseased livestock and contaminated produce. We are a good neighbor with no common sense.
NOBODY said we're perfect.. BUT ours is STILL the best example of a nation on the earth.
Your comment about " parroting " was off. Mine were original thoughts based on some pretty broad brush information. We've all seen the film of the dead Kurdish children. I'm certain you wouldn't question the authenticity of that presentation. To ME it wouldn't matter if it happened fifty or a hundred years ago-- what happened to them was a horror-- and if we do not remain constantly vigilant it COULD happen here.
I do have a tendency to bubble over at the mention of some topics. This is one. Didn't we learn over the years how much pain those boys who went to Viet Nam packed along with their guns and equipment because of the bullshit back home? WE sent them over there and then treated them like criminals, spewing opinions on the damned shame it was for them to be involved in a war that didn't have any business being.
Now we've sent these other men and women. They're over there on OUR behalf-- right, wrong or indifferent-- the LEAST we can do is back 'em up from home.
I get a lot of my information from de-classified government documents-- looky here to your hearts content. I know your take will be,
" It's from the government why should we believe it?" You are correct too. HOWEVER, it is the SAME with EVERY OTHER SOURCE we cite at this point. Short of going OVER THERE and seeing for ourselves we all have to pretty much get our information from outside sources.
I HAVE found some pretty damned compelling stuff here;
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/CIA/cia-tenet-031902.htm
For an even larger view;
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/#US
In the end it is better to err on the side of safety when it comes to potential weapons of mass destruction. It's much better to say, " Oh shit, we killed poor old Saddam and all he had was an aluminum wind chime. We THOUGHT he was using those tubes for a centrifuge enrichment program OR at the VERY LEAST for his conventional weapons program-- aw HELL, dang us." RATHER than to say, " Shit-- Saddam just blew up the Superbowl-- wish we'd KNOWN that threat was real."
Cindy
Todd,
Thanks for watchin' my back, darlin'.
:)
Cindy
ZOE ROSE,
You're quite right not to believe the " nice tv ladies". They all lie. RADIO-- now THAT is another thing entirely.
:)
Cindy Jones
KNEL NEWS
BRADY, TEXAS
Eric wrote:
"Diana, just trying to reign in the slavish adoration to a point that isn't embarassing for everyone else, including "His Greatness."
But hey, I'm not the board nanny. Venerate away"
Hey Eric?
Thank you for giving me your permission to "venerate away". I was up all last night worrying about what you were going to think of my post, like I worry every night about what Eric" is going to think of my posts.
(or was I?)
I was also worried about embarassing all the other "kewl" people who read the posts in here too.
(or was I?)
In fact I spend just about all my time worrying what other people think of what I say and do...I give a huge amount of time and attention to such things.
OR DO I?
MAYBE, actually, I THINK FOR MYSELF, maybe I say and do whatever the hell I feel like saying and doing, pretty much all the time. Maybe I don't run around with a stick up my ass letting what other people might think about the level of my "coolness" keep me from being happy, and enthusuastic, and passionate, and enjoying the FUCK out of all the things in life that I enjoy. If offering to share my enthusiasm where ever I feel like sharing it "embarasses" anyone else, (like you). I figure they can just kiss my big beautiful Portugese ass.
It's so crazy it just might work.
This way I listen to the music I actually enjoy listening to, I watch the kind of movies I actually enjoy watching, I read the books I actually enjoy reading, I wear the clothes I like, eat the food I like, I openly admire the people I "venerate" all to hell and out there. I dance, I sing, I love how, who and what I please. And harm no one in the process.
Am I communicating to you Eric? I don't give a shit if you felt embarassed by my posting what I think about Mr. Ellison. I don't give a shit what you think about *me*, or about anything. And who the fuck do you think you are to try and dictate the level of enthusiasm that's it's acceptable for me to show, anyway? About ANYTHING? Anywhere? Ever?
I try very hard to be polite, and respectful to others Here, and everywhere. But people like you ASK to get their nasty insecure mediocre little butts kicked. Trying to bully people. Because they're basically jealous. They're all boring, and insipid, and unoriginal. Toad-like. All gray, and repressed. Hostile. Unenthusiastic and depressed all the time. Wanting to get everyone to join them in the shadows. Looking to their masters to clue them into what it's okay to think, okay to say, okay to feel. Then trying to tyranize other people into toeing their line.
I'm not suggesting you should keep your nasty litttle opinions to yourself, or anything, Eric. But if you try addressing them to ME again, I'll be happy to deal with you directly. Okay? If you enjoyed this post, feel free to express youself on it too.
Really. I'll be up all night again tonight worrying until I hear from you. Sure I will.
Eric wrote:
"Diana, just trying to reign in the slavish adoration to a point that isn't embarassing for everyone else, including "His Greatness."
But hey, I'm not the board nanny. Venerate away"
Hey Eric?
Thank you for giving me your permission to "venerate away". I was up all last night worrying about what you were going to think of my post, like I worry every night about what Eric" is going to think of my posts.
(or was I?)
I was also worried about embarassing all the other "kewl" people who read the posts in here too.
(or was I?)
In fact I spend just about all my time worrying what other people think of what I say and do...I give a huge amount of time and attention to such things.
OR DO I?
MAYBE, actually, I THINK FOR MYSELF, maybe I say and do whatever the hell I feel like saying and doing, pretty much all the time. Maybe I don't run around with a stick up my ass letting what other people might think about the level of my "coolness" keep me from being happy, and enthusuastic, and passionate, and enjoying the FUCK out of all the things in life that I enjoy. If offering to share my enthusiasm where ever I feel like sharing it "embarasses" anyone else, (like you). I figure they can just kiss my big beautiful Portugese ass.
It's so crazy it just might work.
This way I listen to the music I actually enjoy listening to, I watch the kind of movies I actually enjoy watching, I read the books I actually enjoy reading, I wear the clothes I like, eat the food I like, I openly admire the people I "venerate" all to hell and out there. I dance, I sing, I love how, who and what I please. And harm no one in the process.
Am I communicating to you Eric? I don't give a shit if you felt embarassed by my posting what I think about Mr. Ellison. I don't give a shit what you think about *me*, or about anything. And who the fuck do you think you are to try and dictate the level of enthusiasm that's it's acceptable for me to show, anyway? About ANYTHING? Anywhere? Ever?
I try very hard to be polite, and respectful to others Here, and everywhere. But people like you ASK to get their nasty insecure mediocre little butts kicked. Trying to bully people. Because they're basically jealous. They're all boring, and insipid, and unoriginal. Toad-like. All gray, and repressed. Hostile. Unenthusiastic and depressed all the time. Wanting to get everyone to join them in the shadows. Looking to their masters to clue them into what it's okay to think, okay to say, okay to feel. Then trying to tyranize other people into toeing their line.
I'm not suggesting you should keep your nasty litttle opinions to yourself, or anything, Eric. But if you try addressing them to ME again, I'll be happy to deal with you directly. Okay? If you enjoyed this post, feel free to express youself on it too.
Really. I'll be up all night again tonight worrying until I hear from you. Sure I will.
I've just come back from ABOUT SCHMIDT, starring Jack.
Very, VERY good stuff. Keeping in mind that I'm speaking as a 20-year-old, I think it really did capture a lot of the alienation and loneliness that comes to many people around Schmidt's age. I felt sympathetic towards Schmidt. I experience what he experiences on a somewhat different level, but still bitter nonetheless.
I wonder...when and if I become 66, will I be looking on the new generation with the same sense of mounting dread and horror? Am I asking a trick question?
Anyway. Despite the creeping feeling that the entire film was one big 'Children in Need' advertisement, Nicholson's performance more than made up for that, especially in the very last shot. Wow.
Speaking of which, I just checked out the book the film is based over at Amazon. The plot sounds incredibly different, and the character's original first name was 'Albert'. What's up with the change to 'Warren'? I can see Nicholson being called 'Albert'.
Don't you see Nicholson being called Albert?
Diana, just trying to reign in the slavish adoration to a point that isn't embarassing for everyone else, including "His Greatness."
But hey, I'm not the board nanny. Venerate away.
Hey, anyone up for some dangerous fun perpetuated in the name of Sagan?
I just stumbled across a contest to win two tickets to an upcoming taping of "Crossing Over With John Edwards," see--and I see ample opportunity for social mayhem in the name of Truth.
(Or, as I put it elsewhere, "I see dead people ... all the time ... and you're about to join them, fucko.")
What's all the more distressing is that this exploitative crap is shown on the Sci-Fi Channel, whose viewers should, in a perfect world, be more receptive to actual SCIENCE rather than pseudoscience. But then, that's me; asking too much of the world.
The contest's at: http://dreamteam.scifi.com/sweepstakes/form.html
if anyone else has the same sad and sick notions in their heckler heads as I.
Eric wrote:
">Everything I do well, he does better. (I even look a little like him)<
Ummm...ok."
Hey Eric?
Which part are you questioning me on there? I'd naturally prefer to believe you think I could actually do most things just as well as His Greatness, but somehow I doubt that's what you meant.
As for whether or not I look a little like him, you can judge for yourself in a few days (if you give a rat's ass) I'll have some pictures of me on my website by Friday.
(I don't know as we should give the url to Frank though. I'm kind of cute, and he seems to be an "excitable" sort of fellow)
Frank Church wrote:
"Diana, a bit pc are we? :-)"
I don't know Frank. I just don't now. (I'm not sure what "pc" stands for in your vernacular) Please feel free to elaborate, your posts are invariably fascinating. :=)
Diana
Diana, a bit pc are we? :-)
Frank Church wrote:
"Hot Toddie, Cindy"
"her pretty little head",
"...what Cindy has to do is come back smiling, and swing those supine hips...with vigor and strength"
"...her husband should thank the God of shadow and light that she has her form in his life.
and:
"Todd....my only male lover you sure do burn my cookies"
Je-ZUS, keep it in your shorts...or get a room, for chrissakes.
Diana
Funny. This guy was an inspector too...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9657-2003Jan18.html
--tr
Hot Toddie, Cindy knows we love her, and knows that we would never harm a hair on her pretty little head, but being wrong is being wrong; facts net the big fish homie, and even sincere lies are still lies.
Cindy has to first give us her source for information, and then back up why she thinks that source deserves the status of Godhood.
Todd, you would see an open sore festering with puss and maggots and call it a minor scrape. Everyone has on opinion, but opinions have to be backed up and debated. Now what Cindy has to do is come back smiling, and swing those supine hips back into the fray with vigor and strength. We know she can do it, and we know she will probably be wrong again; but again our love for her is without question. She is a sweetheart; and her husband should thank the God of shadow and light that she has her form in his life.
Todd, our information comes from de-classified government documents, while yours and Cindy's come from some news blurb or some Fox news style propaganda. When Oliver North, in his Diary, tells me that he knew the Contra's dealt cocaine, I take him at his word. He should know; since he was the main American insider on the Contra war, and had his diary classified for obvious reasons.
It was Bush Sr. who stood by while Hussein gassed the Kurds; with gas from American chemical companies. We did not make this up Todd, do some research; tell me where Bush castigated Saddam for the gassing? You won't find it, because Bush was playing cornhole poker with him at the time. This is simple information--everyone knows this. Todd, maybe your hatred of Arabs makes you blind to these facts.
Scott Ritter has said countless times that Iraq has no nuclear weapons, and Iraq does NOT have the ingrediants for such a bomb. Ritter, being an ex-weapons inspector knows a lot more than some dweep writing copy for Scrips Howard.
Iraq's chemical weapons were destroyed in 1998, or at least according to the very esteemed Mr. Ritter. I know Todd, Ritter is a lying liberal who secretly hates America. We know the M.O.--liberals are never right and conservatives are never wrong--even though conservatives are usually proven wrong by--get this: FACTS!
Todd, for my only male lover you sure do burn my cookies sometimes.
Take off the blinders my friend. Seeing with new eyes is a wonderous thing.
KISS KISS.
-----------------
Hey everybody, Entertainment Weekly actually gave a Chomsky film a good review! Didn't know the corporate media had closet lefties hiding in the breech.
Aw, crumbum. Al Hirschfeld has passed away. Knew it had to come eventually, since he was 99, but it's still sad to lost the greatest caricaturist of all time:
http://tinyurl.com/4o2a
>Everything I do well, he does better. (I even look a little like him)<
Ummm...ok.
HARLAN: The article was sent in that fashion, prior to your response of Sunday, January 19 (I've been paying attention and anticipated you'd want it that way). Looking forward to "Incognita Inc." BTW - until the recent thread on requests for tours of Webderland, even after reading "Xenophobia" and other such pieces (and time dropping in here), it never really occured to me that your correspondence from home (rather than the Kilimanjaro Corp return address) was a small leap of faith & confidence. Thanks.
(And before the rest of you say it, yes, in my case, HimsElf's a poor judge of character. No matter what say you as I celebrate the eighth anniversary of the day I met my love)
David: Yeah, I've hit several sources for the pubic hair story, but I used 'possibly apocryphal' because it always came/comes up either as an anecdote in a lit class or an uncited reference in a general historical article. Algernon Swinburne also generates a lot of great stories, all of them probably true but possibly apocryphal as well -- the one in which Dante Rossetti sends Swinburne to dig up one of Rossetti's mistresses' graves to retrieve poetry Rossetti had put in the coffin being one of the weirder ones. Given Swinburne's strong and multi-faceted fascination with dead bodies and decay, sending him to exhume the body of a dead woman was roughly analoguous to sending a thirsty weasel to fetch a live chicken from a henhouse. The Romantics get all the glory in films and novels for their wacky personal lives, but the Pre-Raphalites were no slouches.
Canadian Tire humour: There's currently a Canadian Tire tv ad running that begins with a guy stating "Do you know what could save your life in a snow storm? I'll give you a hint. It's made of black rubber and it's coated in Teflon."
And now, every time I see the ad, I think "A dildo can save your life in a snowstorm? Man, Canadian Tire is really diversifying."
It's actually a windshield wiper, by the way.
Documentary note: If you get the Discovery Channel, check to see when they're showing the doc-miniseries _Rocket Science._ It's really good, and served up information I'd never run into before (Armstrong hotwiring the ascent vehicle's ignition switch with his gravity pen, for instance). And I also agree with Robert Sawyer's comments in the lunar landing show -- it's a shame Buzz Aldrin didn't get to step onto the moon first, because describing the landscape as "Magnificent desolation" is much more poetic than Armstrong's line.
Cheers, Jon
To Whom It May Concern:
(some of Harlan Ellison's fans)
I've long thought I'd really hate being famous. (I suppose it might sound conceited or something if I say that I've carefully avoided it for years, but it's true, I have)
Anyway, I was reading in The Dining Pavilion where Mr. Ellison has had dealings with people arriving, uninvited, and unwelcome, at his home, for various reasons, as a direct result of his fame. Some of them, apparently, were less than friendly. Some of them, apparently, were way too friendly. And of course the vast majority of them had absolutely no business going there in the first place. This was seriously rude of them.
Speaking as a fan of his, I can understand the attraction, up to a point. AS a fan, I might buy his books, and I might buy his records, or tapes. I might buy magazines that have articles by him, or about him in them. If I know he's going to be on television, I might make plans to watch him. And etc. That's what fans do. I just don't understand this business of going to his house.
My idea is that I can actually see him better from a distance. Days, weeks, months, even a few years have gone by when I haven't given much of a thought to him. How much of him do these people need? He already gives out about a thousandfold more of himself than most of us do, and has been doing so for a lifetime.
It's a weird "relationship", really, being a fan of someone. I can understand BEING a fan in the case of Harlan Ellison. I think he really is extra-ordinary. And exceptional. And excellent. And original. There's only one of him. I think that in some ways he's a little bit like me, or rather, I 'm a little bit like him, to the extent that he strikes a chord in me, so that I kind of "resonate" when I read his words, or hear him talking, or whenever I see him. He's like "super sized". Like me, but exaggerated, and amplified. He thinks faster than I do, and I'm no slouch. He moves, faster than I do, and I'm not slow. Everything I do well, he does better. (I even look a little like him) But that's all for the good. That's why I'm a fan. (That's the relationship of fans to their "idols". We identify with them to some extent) He sets standards I can at least aim for. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's something I want. And something I've found hard to come by. It's so rare that anything gets my attention, and pulls me out of my inner environment, and actually gets me excited the way he does, and does with apparently little effort. I APPRECIATE him.
I think maybe those people who went to his house might have been identifying with him too much. Maybe they got mixed up, and instead of just relating to him, got to thinking they were actually related to him. Maybe they got to feeling they actually knew him.
I don't know. I do know I think I'd really hate to be famous, and have to go around dealing with things like that.
Diana
To Mr Ellison:
I promise I'll never go to your house, unless you invite me.
Diana
David,
For a writer of non-fiction, I think you need to better paraphrase other's words. Please point out exactly where in my posting I said "facts don't matter." I would expect that from others, but not from a published author.
Though inspired by recent responses to Cindy's posting, my post was meant to encompass more than just the recent couple of hours of board excitement. I refer to the trend of the board over many a month or year. Just because Alex was wise enough to close in the manner you cited, doesn't mean all such postings do.
My characterization is not "inaccurate and sloppy." It would be if I were referring only to Alex's recent posting. I wasn't. I was referring to many a similar note that did not close as wisely. Alex ain't the only one on these boards. Please don't pretend that you have not seen the many "your sources are bullshit and my sources are not" or "go to AMERICASUCKS.COM for the absolute truth" postings over time. You're much smarter than that.
Then again.....maybe not. I still can't see where I said, hinted, alluded to or farted "facts don't matter." Man, that comment is worse than a 7 hour 60 MINUTES interview resulting in 2 minutes of tape.
-TODD
Todd, ya big WUSS!
Not only do you fold your tents and say, it's useless for me even to being to argue on this subject -- I'm already bored -- but you accuse the other side of being the rudest while throwing out more four-letter words (indirectly) than anyone.
To me, "bored" translates to "overwhelmed." You don't want to deal with the facts offered by the opposition, so you say facts don't matter. * Poof! * Opposition gone! Neat trick.
And to top it off, you accuse unnamed opponents of instructing Cindy to go to this particular website and believe everything it says, when Alex specifically ended his post with:
> And don't be so quick to swallow anyone's bullshit--not even mine.
Such inaccurate and sloppy characterization of the opposition smacks of the mind of an ideologue.
Oh yes, a minor correction: DC apparently had a turnout of roughly 30,000, so it was respectably larger than Portland's. Regarding San Fran, however, I'm seeing everything in the news reports from 50,000 to 200,000.
And Jon:
From what I know, the Ruskin story is not apocryphal. I first heard about it in a literature class lecture freshman year of college, and looked it up recently in a book about Ruskin, Carlyle, and that circle. Talk about a classic illustration of confusing art with reality!
Zoe, as expected, your response shows you missed my point. Cindy is not expressing her opinion just from watching a single news story. Cindy has expressed her opinion many a time in the past....she just happens to now have grown passionate enough over the recent new story to toss another posting into the fire.
I do not preach spouting uninformed opinions. What I do preach is not calling someone else a dummy because their informed decision doesn't agree with your informed opinion: or their informed opinion wasn't researched with sources that agree with your informed opinion.
Oy. What's wrong with me? Why do I expect to toss out my previous posting and not get frustrated with responses that prove my point? I waste time saying "Cindy and others aren't forming misinformed opinions JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOU OR SPEND HOURS AND HOURS PULLING QUOTES FROM OTHER SOURCES" only to see the response "you can't have an opinion over one network news show story."
Oy.
-TODD
Oh yes, Todd. It's terrible how people like to back up arguments with facts - I say we should just JUMP at the first thing announced on not one but TWO television stations at the same time, that happens to piss us off. And inevitably, let's always say that the answer is to kill the Other Guy. Hell, why even DISCUSS issues, do research, find out what's really going on? After all, if someone SAID it's really so - it must be so! KILL THEM! KILL THEM ALL!
Sorry... your post ragging on having an informed opinion and back up information was just very typically knee-jerk-ish. I've not seen very much "reference counting" as you mentioned - maybe longish posts and sure, if they're not what you agree with they'll seem boring to you... but the fact that it was a well thought out post and had references anyone could go see, and not just "The nice TV woman said that...", should have had a little impact on you.
--Zoë Rose
Also- Not trying to insult Cindy or her posts here. Just the idea that having information and trying to communicate it is such a snotty, horrid thing to do.
Harlan's right, of course. That piece on the "hole in the lake" is copyrighted. I've emailed Rick about it. Meanwhile, for those who'd like to look at the piece on this bit of Fortean wetness can visit ABC's page on http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/hole_lake030119.html
I'm sure "R Serling" meant well.
--Alex
Remember, Cindy, as Harlan says: Everyone is entitled to AN INFORMED opinion.
I do not interpret this true statement as meaning what many on this board take it to mean: And the most INFORMED opinion is from one who has worked on his opinion longest.
You see, you won't win......but one day soon it will come down to "I've read 25 articles and watched 13 documentaries to formulate my opinion, you read 20 articles and watched 9 documentaries. Obviously, you lose."
You're allowed to have an INFORMED opinion AND a life and a job.
-TODD