Yes...and then there was Frankenheimer: of his masterpieces I've yet to see SEVEN DAYS IN MAY (with a kick-ass, awe-inspiring cast: Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, Fredric March, Ava Gardner). (Anyone here realize Whit Bissel was probably the most ubiquitous actor in film history? No matter WHAT the movie, SEVEN DAYS or MONSTER ON THE CAMPUS, MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE or I WAS A TEENAGE WEREWOLF, CAINE MUTINY or I WAS A TEENAGE FRANKENSTEIN, MAGNIFICENT SEVEN or THE ATOMIC KID, THE DEFIANT ONES or CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON, there he was for a solid 10 minutes every time. Sorry, Justin 'roused the film geek in me). I also need to see the work Frankenheimer did in Europe.
Phenomenally intelligent director; another massive talent we're going to miss.
(Incidentally, I believe MANCHURIAN was the first film ever to cast a black in a major role not written specifically for a black; and in HIS version of the tea garden dream you noticed, I'm sure, all the ladies being black; well, if you look carefully a WHITE bellboy appears in the background).
Joseph:
12. Add Steven Spielberg, _Close Encounters of the Third Kind._
The Beer question: Well, Dean Stockwell,Pabst is _Blue Velvet._ I wouldn't be surprised if Gary Oldman,Harp is _State of Grace_ and Jeff Bridges,Guinness is _Blown Away._ DeNiro and Rolling Rock? _Jacknife_, mebbe?
Silent movies: You'd think some of the music+images documentaries that include _Baraka_, _Koyaanisquaati_ and _Powasquaati_ would lack dialogue, but I wouldn't bet on it. Warhol's Empire State Building?
Cheers, Jon
Jim,
Steiger in THE PAWNBROKER: Absolutely!
Film geek note: Next time you watch Zhivagho, watch for the scene where Steiger smooches on the succulent Julie Christie in the carriage. She had no idea what he was going to do, and as a result both of their performances were perfect in the scene because of his instincts about what to do, and her genuine resultant surprise. It worked in the same way as the scene between DeNiro and Juliette Lewis in Scorcese's Cape Fear remake, which is the only other example I can think of as far as those kind of improved intimate screen moments goes. I dug Steiger. Last time I saw him was in END OF DAYS, and yet I haven't seen PAWNBROKER or NO WAY TO TREAT A LADY. For shame. Hopefully those last two will be on TCM soon.
I was sad about Frankenheimer too. I saw MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE for the first time ever on AMC Sunday night, before I even heard Frankenheimer had passed. That movie was MESSED UP in the head. Loved it.
Your movie quiz makes me feel like I belong on celebrity Jeopardy.
Cindy
Faisal is the muthafuckin' MAN! High five! I'm excited for you, that's outstanding. I read the script and I thought it was SUPERIOR stuff. If you haven't read it yet, go check it out! I'll repost the link:
http://www.moviepoet.com/mp/mpmain.nsf/fmMain?OpenForm&Main=News&News=3706
I'd be keen to know what your inspiration was for the script??? Again, congrats!
J
Jim,
Personally, I've discounted "Silent Movie" for the reason you mentioned. I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with others....
Regards,
Joseph
Oops. That should've read: "Here ARE some tentative answers..."
The "Preview" Key--it's a good thing.
FAISAL: Congratulations! I'll read it, and tell you what I think.
HARLAN: Thanks. You may be right--I'll have to go over to imdb.com, plug the names in, and see what comes up. I have a feeling that the answer isn't as simple as "Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart."
Here's some tentative answers to the Movie Quiz from Gehenna (found at http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0226/atkinson_test.php):
6. Fred Thompson.
12. George Lucas--STAR WARS; Orson Welles--MR. ARKADIN. (Haven't come up with a third).
15. B. THE CELL; C. LAST TANGO IN PARIS.
16. SILENT MOVIE (technically, there's one word of dialogue in it--spoken by Marcel Marceau); KOYAANISQUATSI.
20. Maya Deren (?)
My favorite Rod Steiger performance was the title role in THE PAWNBROKER. What a gut-wrenching final scene; to this day, I can't look at a paper spike without thinking about it.
Rod Steiger was perfect. His performance in Dr. Zhivago was awe inspiring.
Cindy
FAISAL!!! You HOUND! Congratulations! I've bookmarked it for later enjoyment. Minor feat my Aunt Fanny! I only hope there is a British version of the NEA grant (which I assume is a BBC commission of sorts) which will allow you or some production company to do something with the script.
Lynn - Plush Cthulhu glares at me from atop the book case, commanding me to snuggle with it tonight. I'm scared.
It's unlikely, but some of you may not know this about Ward Kimball: he led a superlative Dixieland band called THE FIREHOUSE 5 PLUS 2. I urge you to locate any of their records, for a splendid earful of joyous sound.
I met Mr. Kimball on three occasions, and was much enamoured of his good heart, his charming and generous nature, and his seemingly boundless wit. What a loss.
And while I'm mourning, though I never knew him personally, the vanishment of Rod Steiger is equally dampening to my spirit on this double-death day. Steiger's 1967 Oscar win for IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT was merely the belated reward he should have reaped for his astonishing, mesmerizing, nonpareil portrait as the eponymous PAWNBROKER. THE BIG KNIFE; DUCK, YOU SUCKER; NO WAY TO TREAT A LADY; ON THE WATERFRONT. What a loss. What a loss.
Harlan
Faisal,
"Minor achievement", indeed. Powerful stuff, that script. More ambiguity than in an entire Hollywood movie. I hope it gets produced, you movie poet, you.
Kudos.
Chuck
JIM DAVIS:
It seems to me that the movie quiz answer to the question of which two actors were used the most times by Hitchcock would be JOHN WILLIAMS and JESSIE ROYCE LANDIS. But I could be wrong.
Harlan
FAISAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Minor? MINOR? FRICKIN' MIIIIIIIINOR????????????????
No WAY buddy this is GREAT! It's EXCELLENT!!! You must realize how MANY of us NEVER get a chance to say, " Yes, I won the.. such and such competition." THIS IS HUGE!!!!!!!!!
CONGRATULATIONS, FAISAL-- YOU ARE THE MAN!!!!!!
Oh, and I read the script and you won for good reason. It's intense.
:)
Cindy
OH MISS ZOE!! Didn't think I would forget your birthday did you?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Zoe.
I remember 22. I had three kids! One of whom will be 22 in September. I'd try to set you up if you would allow it, but he's like that planet eating machine on Star Trek when it comes to women.
Some day he might grow out of it though.... I hope.
:)
You're a sweet, smart, clever, dear girl and I wish you many many happy birthdays.
Cindy
Happy birthday, little Cassandra! May your every birthday be mighty and full of merriment! May you meet your own superhero someday, and share some cake. Save some for me, wouldya sugar?
And now I must fly, but first:
"...and my ashes served to an unknowing William Shatner as coffee...."
The picture of Mr. Shatner spitting out his coffee damn near made me bust my tights lauging, oh B-O-S.
Chuck
I mean, THE ASTOUNDING THUNDER FOX! Oh, poopy. There goes my secret identity.
Zoe:
Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday dear Zoe (dot-dot)!
Happy birthday to you!
Chuck
The passing of Ward Kimball has aded significance here at Ellison Webderland. Kimball was the man who animated Jiminy Cricket, whom Harlan has said is one of his role models.
But I remember Kimball as the man who gave us _Dad, Can I Borrow the Car?_ one of the most demented films Disney ever made. Kimball was the one wacky genius among Disney's Nine Old Men, and he tended to ge given a lot more leeway around the Disney lot. It may have stemmed from the love of trains Kimball shared with Disney, for Kimball was also one of the world's greatest collectors of toy trains. He even had a real steam train route on his property, complete with functioning locomotive.
He had a long, productive, and I presume joyful life, but it's sad to hear about a world without Ward Kimball.
Ward Kimball, one of Disney's original "Nine Old Men," has also passed.
http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/D/20020708/wkimb?hub=homeBN&tf=tgam%252Frealtime%252Ffullstory.html&cf=tgam/realtime/config-neutral&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&slug=wkimb&date=20020708&archive=RTGAM&site=Front&ad_page_name=breakingnews
With the talk of "The Illustrated Man," I was intrigued to see that Ray Bradbury was quoted in one of the AP stories of Rod Steiger's demise.
John Pickett,
We're two of a kind: I like THE ILLUSTRATED MAN, in spite its glaring problems, and I've seen many furrowed brows in response to my confession. The only genuinely superb aspects of the film are Steiger and Jerry Goldsmith's score; and I guess for me that was enough. I yapped with the director once (he had done quite a number of Twilight Zones for Serling); for all his limitations he went on to do a great job on FRANKENSTEIN: THE TRUE STORY for tv and NO WAY TO TREAT A LADY (obviously his best and a lot of fun), the latter which also starred Steiger (as a transvestite lady-strangler).
I'll definitely miss the madness Steiger brought to PI as well.
I have a friend - a poet - who ran into Steiger just a number of months ago and the actor gave him nearly an hour of his time because, it seems, he too did a great deal of poetry. Steiger was happy to share his opinions.
Well done, Faisal.
_Very_ powerful image.
Congratulations.
Heather
First off..Jim Hess
"You weren't using it." Christ. What IS it with some people?
I can't remember the reference, right now, but this phrase reminds me of someone at work, saying something similar (for a totally different reason.) But Christ..that guy friend of yours.
Christ.
........
In my life, I've read mucho business books. I was browsing a few in the offline world the other day and wondered where ta hell these companies were that I'd learned the lessons and strategies about business from ...ages ago..
Sigh. No matter. Guess I'll have my own one day, that's all...
Have you ever read any of this book below? Here's a clip I liked, given my current employment:
"To most large traditional companies, the notion that workers might actually know what they were doing was a huge insight. (Duh!) But it takes hard work to implement the changes required to elicit knowledge from employees. In most cases, that work is not only incomplete, it hasn't even begun. "Drive out fear"? Dream on.
Knowledge worth having comes from turned-on volitional attention, not from slavishly following someone else's orders. Innovation based on such knowledge is exciting, inflammatory, even "dangerous," because it tends to challenge fixed procedures and inflexible policies. While collaboration has been paid much lip service within corporations, few have attempted it beyond their own boundaries. Ironically, companies that remain "secure" within those boundaries will be cut off from the global marketplace with which they must engage in order to survive and prosper.
And this engagement must be fearless and far-reaching. Workers must become fully empowered and self-directed. Scary. Suppliers must become trusted allies in developing new products and business strategies. Scarier still. Markets must come to have faces and personalities in place of statistical profiles. Flat-out panic!
For many, the new landscape is barely recognizable, online or off. Where business is headed there are no roadmaps yet, and few comforting parallels with the past. The landscape has little to do with mass production, mass merchandising, mass markets, mass media, or mass culture.
Instead, the future business of businesses that have a future will be about subtle differences, not wholesale conformity; about diversity, not homogeneity; about breaking rules, not enforcing them; about pushing the envelope, not punching the clock; about invitation, not protection; about doing it first, not doing it "right"; about making it better, not making it perfect; about telling the truth, not spinning bigger lies; about turning people on, not "packaging" them; and perhaps above all, about building convivial communities and knowledge ecologies, not leveraging demographic sectors."
From the "Cluetrain Manifesto"
http://www.cluetrain.com/apocalypso.html
Don't forget Fred Savage, guys, it's his birthday too! ;) The only other ones I really knew were OJ Simpson and Tom Hanks, already mentioned. What an... interesting mix, neh? Faisal, congrats on your achievement! Read the script and it gave me a few chills. Keep it up!
--Master of the Dots
Joseph, I just picked up a copy on 20 MILLION MILES TO EARTH on DVD. It was released last week. This one also contains The Harryhausen Chronicles original docu, plus other features like an old fashion "This is Dynamation" featurette. I purchased the DVD more for the Chronicles than for the flick, though I always loved that cute little Venusian as a kid.
Looks like the box set of Harryhausen DVDs that came out last year are now coming to the market as individual movies, each with the Chronicles documentary.
Just thought I would toss that out in case anyone felt the need to chase down the documentary and mistakenly thought they would be required to buy EvsFS only.
-TODD
Faisal,
Great achievement, and a good script. Would make a fine short (sadly, I have no terrain suitable in Chicago).
All,
Harryhausen was mentioned earlier this week. I see that Earth vs. The Flying Saucers is due out on DVD with extras, including a "Harryhausen Chronicles" documentary, two featurettes, and a photo gallery. In-stores Sept 17th.
Regards,
Joseph
I'm pleased to say I bought my first plush Cthulhu last September at Comiccon and he has been Overlord of my Evil Beanie collection ever since. I get the greatest comments from visitors to my cube. "He's so cute. What the--- what is it?"
(The Evil Beanies are Scorch, the brown scruffy dragon;Swoop, the pteradactyl; a beanie-sized version of the evil dragon from Sleeping Beauty; Stinger, the scorpion; Bagheera; Scurry, the scarab; a four-armed, hazmat suited thing from Monsters Inc (in bright yellow vinyl), and of course, the other Toy Vault creation: The Rabbit With Big Pointy Teeth. ::grin::
L.
Rod Steiger passed away today
Most remember him as the sheriff from "In The Heat Of The Night"
but to me he'll always be "The Illustrated Man".
I've bookmarked the page, and will offer congratulations now; I will read the screenplay later. Of course praise is fine, I just hope cash is involved as well.
Great job!
BOS
Zoe:
Hope your birthday celebrations remain peaceful. I come home to discover baseballs breaking windows here. Give children 3-9 years old a plentiful supply of Jolt Cola and voluminous amounts of cake, then sit back and watch as they start trashing the place better than a healthy Keith Moon...
Jim: Cool personification of evil. I've already whipped out plastic, found an on-line site which sells; good ol' Cthulhu will soon enough be hanging out with Bill and Opus. A wonderful education lies ahead for Cthulhu: Bill'll have him broken in right proper! Have to make sure Opus doesn't wind up a victim of a sacrificial rite, however. He is still a virgin, after all.
With that, I must leave to assist the good wife in control of this unruly mob. Got both tear gas and rubber bullets on standby, to be implemented by eight-thirty tonight. Hell hath no fury like a toddler full of sugar...
Should I not survive, please don't allow John Henry Williams to claim my corpse. I'd like to be cremated, but not in Georgia, and my ashes served to an unknowing William Shatner as coffee...
BOS
Minor achievement of the week:
http://www.moviebytes.com/NewsStory.cfm?StoryID=1145
FAQ
Jim,
By the way, those plush Cthulhu have been selling like hotcakes at my local comic shop (DC has been doing some fun plush this past year that have been doing well - there's been some Sandman, an incredibly cute Death, Bat-Mite and Mztylpyx to my recollection).
Regards,
Joseph
JOSEPH: I'm hoping the Webderland Brain Trust can crack this demonic little quiz, but it may turn out to be our Masada, intellectually speaking. (Not that I'm suggesting we all commit suicide if we fail to solve it, but. . .you know what I mean.)
An addendum to my earlier birthday comments: Huxley and Shaw didn't hit their artistic strides until their 40's, apparently, so there's hope for me yet.
Jim Davis,
Christ - you're kidding, right? That quiz is going to give me brain spasms. I'll be happy if I can research it well enough to actually get some...
Regards,
Joseph
CLEARING MY DOCKET AFTER A FEW DAYS' ABSENCE:
LYNN: I was out all day yesterday, so I couldn't return your call(s). If you want to give me a ring tonight, I should be in. Oh, by the way: I almost made a last-minute trip to Westercon, but I couldn't find an empty kennel for my dogs. Maybe next time.
You wanna see a hard movie quiz? Holy Shit: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0226/atkinson_test.php (Mr. Cineaste here could only answer three.)
You wanna see Cthulhu plush toys?: http://www.toyvault.com/cthulhu/plush_cthulhu.html (I never knew ineffable horror could be SO DAMNED CUTE.)
A closing note: Everyone must run out and grab a copy of Ted Chiang's STORIES OF YOUR LIFE AND OTHERS *RIGHT NOW*. This is simply the best short-story collection I've read in many a moon, and it cements Chiang's place in the pantheon of the Greats (Sturgeon, Tiptree, Zelazny, et al--yes, he's that good). This agnostic is praying he writes a novel one day.
This may have been mentioned, but there's a few words from Robert Carroll's skepdic.com site regarding HE's luncheon at the Fourth World Skeptics Conference. Just look at link #5. (well, don't just look at it; click on the link and then look at the words that the link takes you to oh, nevermind, you know what I'm saying)
http://skepdic.com/news/newsletter5.html
ZOE: You share a birthday with Nicola Tesla, Brian Dennehy, and Courtney Love, as well.
I lucked out, I guess; July 26 is also the birthday for Stanley Kubrick, Aldous Huxley, Carl Jung, Mick Jagger, George Bernard Shaw, Helen Mirren, Kevin Spacey, and Jason Robards, Jr.
Of course, this cuts both ways. I don't need to be reminded that these folks had directed PATHS OF GLORY, recorded LET IT BLEED, acted in several motion pictures, and written enduring works of great literature by the time they reached my present age.
I think I'll just curl into a fetal position, if y'all don't mind.
How about they bring back, Night Gallery, and have Harlan host? Just a thought.
Yea, Rod Steiger was always a hoot on PI. See, I care when someone famous dies.
-------------
Anyone want a good laugh, go to; http://www.creationevidence.org
The guy who runs the museum is sadly pretty intelligent, but fell for this shit. Religion sure has some poisonous tenticles.
Aw, FUCK! In some cases - obits in particular - you guys are the readiest news source around.
I cannot begin to convey my fondness for Rod Steiger. He is solidly in the ranks of the greatest actors ever. A perceptive and hilarious guy he was too.
Brilliant guy. He will absolutely be missed.
Poor Judd is dead...
...and the hits keep comin'.
Rod Steiger died. I was and will continue to be a fan of his work.
Zoe, person of the dot-dot:
You share your birthday with:
1819....Elias Howe - inventor of sewing machine
1901....Barbara Cartland - romance novelist (and step-grandmother to Princess Di)
1928....Vince Edwards - actor Ben Casey
1939....Richard Rountree - actor Shaft
1946....Mitch Mitchell - drummer Jimi Hendrix Experience
1947....O.J. Simpson
1956....Tom Hanks - actor
1958....Jimmy Smits - actor L.A. Law
And, hopefully to gain notoriety, although Mel and I pray it does not come in a manner similar to the Orenthal James mentioned above, one Cassandra Athena Reeston, being four years old today.
Best Wishes, BOS, BOSETTE and BOSLINGS
ZOE: Happy Birthday! I vaguely remember 22. I think it was fun but I'll have to check the fossil record. :)
MY SO. CAL FRIENDS: OK, SO. CAL GANG, I am zeroing in on an apartment for my upcoming move. Other than a general antipathy to Orange County, is there any reason you guys know of that a nice guy like me would NOT want to live in Anaheim Hills? I have an upstairs apt. with a nice view there. And I am told it's a nice area. When I visited last month, it seemed nice but it's always best to hear from the locals. Any advice?
JOSEPH: I sent you an e-mail last week. Did you get it? I haven't heard back yet. I still have something to mail out to you but didn't want to do so without your go-ahead. Drop me a line.
[blush]
Thanks for the well-wishing, guys - I was pleasantly surprised when the guy I carpooled to work with (we've known eachother for a whopping two and a half weeks, but get along enough to call eachother friends) told me curtly to figure out where I wanted to eat tonight, because they were taking me out. "They" being a bunch of other new folks here-abouts. Wow!
Wëbdërlandër mug? Oy, does that look German or /what/?!
[/blush]
--Zoë Rose
I'd like to throw in my own birthday greeting for our Zoë. It's nice to know some good came out of the eighties.
---Peter(born in the seventies, thank you)
Venkman,
That would be about the most twisted baby ever produced....
Though I keep picturing Andy Lee giving Hitler painting tips on his roses on the inner walls of Hell. :)
Haven't hit $1,000,000 yet. Those high-level questions can get pretty wicked.
Regards,
Joseph
Holy Spit! Thanks Joseph! That's exactly the theme we wanted for the baby's room! Think he could do "Ascension" as a wraparound wall cling? :)
PS Ever get to $1,000,000?
Oh, and anyone who's interested in who did the (heavily Photoshopped) image for my Celtic Tiger logo, it's Atlanta artist Andy Lee:
http://www.nohtv.com/andylee/
Man does lovely work.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph -
Nice design. I think my purchasing the boxer shorts would send the wrong message. But the steel mug looks good. As a borderline obsessive/compulsive collector (I'm still working on getting every damn HeroClix figure before the September issue of wave 2) I will probably end up with a cabinet of Webderlander coffee mugs. I already paid the mug-maker at the Ren Faire to make me one that says "World's Greatest Kadodie!"
The cafepress thing might be just what I need to get the funds to finish editing my little monster movie. Hell, if only moms and dads of the cast bought a "Ringo" shirt, I might make enough to fix the Dazzle and get it cut together.
I'm waiting for the variant webderlander mug that has the (dot-dot) over the E. :) Happy birthday kiddo! 1980 was a good year. I was ten...ye gods I feel old.
Lynn,
You're right about the URL. I was just lazy and cut-and-pasted. And thanks for the compliment about the mug. :)
Zoe,
Happy Birthday! Let's see - born 1980. 1980? I remember 1980! To think that I know people born when Anderson was running for president....
Speaking of birthdays, I looked for the heck of it on the IMDB - they have a section on finding what movies were released, or finished, or whatever on specific days. I found that on my birthday, May 9, 1973, Paper Moon and Soylent Green were both released. Explains a lot, eh?
Regards,
Joseph
Oh, I almost forgot!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZOË!!! (She's 22 today!)
{Insert mad party sounds here}
Luvya!
L.
Joseph~ You know you can just put your link in as www.cafepress.com/celtictiger, yes?
Venkman~ The $15 price is actually marked down from the previous $18 price. (All hats $3 off.) The struck threw $10 is cafepress's base price, originally $13. My markup is $5, all profits going to KICK, of course.
And you guys, Joseph is absolutely right about the kick ass stainless steel mug.
L.
Venkman,
Lynn's stuff is so cool that it inspired me to update my logo for my film company (by the by, anyone have any experience with prospective space tourism companies or organizations?). Take a look and tell me what you think (no, you don't have to buy it and help pay for my moving expenses, though I think the metal travel mug looks wicked cool):
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=celtictiger
Regards,
Joseph
Hey Lynn,
Looks like the Microfiber cap, normally selling for $10, is on SALE for $15. ???
That clock is very, very cool. Gonna pick me up one for work and home.
Venkman
Mitch, that episode was written by the great Richard Matheson, the one man to have written for both incarnations of the _Twilight Zone_. I recall he wasn't happy about the final result on that script, but I liked it.
That particular episode turned up in a really ghastly story over at Salon recently. It's at http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/01/spyware_inc/index.html.
Mitch,
The new Twilight Zone revival is set to air on UPN on Wednesdays this fall.
Regards,
Joseph
Cindy,
I wish someone had the guts to greenlight HE's adaptation of 'Nackles' for the revived TZ. It would have been a hoot.
FAQ
Cindy - I remember that episode, starring Richard Mulligan. I enjoyed it, but I wasn't one for crying over TV shows at the time.
The new TZ did have a few stories that hit me between the eyes, like the destitute couple who receive a button from a mysterious stranger. If you push it, you get a million dollars...and someone you don't know dies.
I heard there's a current revival of the series, with Forrest Whittaker as the host. Has anyone seen it?
Mitch
I just watched an old Twilight Zone episode with Art Carney as Santa Claus...it was so sweet, so poignant.
I am a sucker for any superbly crafted Christmas themed production.. and so, I recall an episode of the newer Twilight Zone that I have never quite forgotten.
Same theme-- the derelict Santa finds a magic bag that is filled with the wishes of countless destitute souls.
What I wouldn't give for a copy of that episode. I remember how I cried! It featured one of the cast members of the old SOAP series... I can't recall his name but his performance is engraved in my brain. It was a marvel to behold.
What I wouldn't give for a copy of that newer Twilight Zone episode. I wonder how many of y'all wept over the same program.
Link Courtesy of Lorin O. and her excellent website, http://www.free-expressions.com:
Rejection Made Easy
http://salon.com/people/feature/2000/03/17/rejection/index.html
::lol::
L.
"a Mr. Creosote moment"
Oh dear...the less said the better.
A con participant had a Mr. Creosote moment to which Zoe & my husband responded heroically while Susan and I tried not to become a part of the problem. Trust me, Joseph, it's trivial and not worth repeating... PLEASE let's not tell this story again.
L.
(The ick factor?!?)
Just wanted to thank everyone of you who turned up to support us at Westercon. THANK YOU! Extra special thanks to Lynn & Bill and Zoe who helped out; and high praise again to Zoe and Bill--it was above and beyond the call of duty. And the ick factor!!!!!!!
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
The Tick-Tock Clock has been rendered sans typo (thank you Jim), and there's still some really cool stuff on sale here. And I've been told over and over again what high quality stuff the shirts are, and we still have baseball shirts. Remember, $5 of every item you purchase goes towards KICK.
L.
Ted Williams' relatives are apparently fighting over what happens to his remains related to burial, cryonics, allegations of wanting to sell Williams DNA over the internet...
Oh, brother.
TTFN, Jon
Joseph -
Yep, we had pretty much the same post - word-for-word - on each board. You were asking earlier if I'm stalking you?
I'm keeping an eye on you, buddy. :)
Oh yeah, and this weekend in Los Angeles sounded fantastic.
- Venkman
FAISAL -- consider me relieved. On the internet, I'm rather safe than sorry.
Forrester,
Read my later post in the Pavilion - the loop is broken and then woven back together. It's wonderfully convoluted. Perhaps I made a Klein Bottle?
Regards,
Joseph
To Jim Davis re:
"Jim Davis- Saturday, July 6 2002 11:24:19
"VENKMAN: Can't we just call you Jay? Is your new pseudonym a homage to Peter Venkman, the voice actor? And isn't funny that he supplied the pipes for Garfield, who was created by one Jim Davis? Is this a cue for everyone to start singing, 'It's a small world after all'?"
May the moebius loop be unbroken
Some small things:
1) Thanks, CEP, for that explanation. Always interesting to see how processes actually work.
2) Thanks, Rick, for the link to Goldblum. Glad to know he hasn't disappeared like Clarus did from Apple. (Longtime Mac users will know what I'm talking about.)
3) Unless the Sox make a miraculous comeback, I don't see them making the playoffs. Benching Thomas, however, was a good idea. He hasn't been producing, after all, so move Ordonez to third spot and Konerko to fourth.
4) Is there anything better than watching Maddux dominate the Cubs?
5) I've come to the conclusion that Richard Roeper has some serious blind spots when it comes to movies. On the other hand, it was fun to watch Ebert and Roeper both admit that they enjoyed the Crocodile Hunter movie. Not art, but fun entertainment. (They did admit that Steve Irwin will bug the hell out of many people.)
6) Oh, and the Texas Observer needs help to keep their doors open. Even though I'm an Illinoisan, it's a fabulously liberal/populist paper that deserves to remain as the bulwark against bad government in Texas. For details, look here:
https://www.texasobserver.org/donate_a.asp
I hope everybody had a good holiday, and that your day is looking fine (and that the East Coast people are done broiling for a while).
Regards,
Joseph
Regards,
Joseph
Last note:
The individual who claims I misquoted him should perhaps follow the link in question (right next to the quotation) and see what was actually posted and quoted. And then discuss the matter with his own counsel before he makes outlandish statements about legal consequences. There is just the possibility that a lawyer whose practice concentrates on authors'-side publishing law might know what he is doing.
There. The troll should have a full meal by now.
To correct a couple of blatant misstatements made by another individual a few messages back (apologizing in advance for the length of these remarks):
(1) Summary judgment filings are not public record in the same way as are trials. The open-court hearings for summary judgment are of lawyers arguing over fine points in the evidence and abstractions in the law. Virtually all intellectual property cases that involve a summary judgment motion have a protective order, to keep certain confidential information from becoming public prior to trial (for example, the actual addresses and e-mail addresses of third-party witnesses, as in this matter). Frequently, material under that protective order is cited by one side or the other on summary judgment, which results in part of the file being sealed. That is in fact what happened in front of Judge Cooper (the majority of the evidence offered by both sides was offered under seal, and Judge Cooper's opinion is quite elliptical in those areas). Sorry this is longwinded, but it's a technical point that very few experienced journalists get right; even a lot of lawyers screw it up the first time they encounter it.
(2) I have to type most of the rulings in by hand; only the 12 March ruling was available otherwise. Thus, they're not coming very fast, as most of my typing is actually being devoted to the brief for Harlan. In any event, there are actually very few rulings in this case, or in fact in any other. The vast majority of the documents in a federal court's file for a given case consists of unused proposed orders, filings by the lawyers for mundane things like extensions of time, proofs of service, and so on. I refuse to violate Latham & Watkins's copyright in their briefs by reproducing them. As a matter of policy, I do not reproduce briefs for public consumption in matters that remain pending. Thus, the briefs--the only parts that really contain legal argument on the issues--will not be posted (and they are also under seal, as described in point 1, because they discuss confidential evidence). As an aside, scanning in documents from California courts is not a realistic option, as they have court stamps, funky line numbers, and other impediments to scanning. Believe me--I've tried.
[Heeding the 'beware of trolls' sign and staying well away]
Someone (please excuse the bad memory, the thump-thump music from next door is executing my brain cells as I type) asked if there were comments on Westercon. Being as it was my first kinda writers/sci-fi/fantast/art convention type thingy, added to the fact that I got up at 6:30am on a Saturday (ie, day I didn't HAVE to get up that early), my comments should be taken as a newbie's beginner-type view. I went to three panel discussions and then Harlan's, er, discussion. I thought that while interesting, the panels were poorly planned.
The first five minutes of two of the panels consisted of the panel members trying to decide exactly what they wanted to discuss. Acoustics were definitely in need of improvement, especially since most of the speakers didn't seem to like the microphones. The third panel had rooms on either side that were thump-thumping with trailer-music or going wild with laughter and applause, making OUR speakers hard to hear.
Funny. Didn't have any trouble hearing Harlan. Huh. *grin*
I'd have to say the highlights of my day were actually seeing HE in person and getting to meet a few fellow Webderlanders. THAT was an awesome experience.
And experiencing LA traffic of course. Especially when trying to follow a blue Geo-Prism-batoutta-hell skipping through I-405 traffic like a stone skips over water. Susan must have nerves of titanium as well as the nicest disposition of anyone I've met in quite awhile.
A memorable experience, all told. THat's how I'll remember Westercon.
--Zoë Rose
ps - Lynn, Bill, and Lonegungirl: my tires survived. And the car doesn't swerve like that in traffic with just me in it.
There's not a lot I can add to the comments about David Razler's notes, but I am struck by several things.
The first is Razler's continual citation of himself and his journalistic bona fides. Now, it's perfectly possible that Razler's work has met the highst standards of investigative journalism. And even if Razler's work were on a par with the usual space-filler printed in a small local paper, it's possible that he might do it was well as Seymour Hersh would if he had that particular job.
But I've seen very few investigative reporters who are worth their salt continualy cite their "status" as proof of their veracity. Razler has, frequently, replied to our criticms by asserting that he's a reporter, therefore he has to get the facts straight. That's nice, but it's no guarantee that he _has_ gotten the facts straight.
What I'm also amazed at is Razler's clumsy writing strategy. I reread his original note, and it's a genuinely schizzy mixture. In one sentence, Razler talks about his respect, admiration, and love for Harlan and his work; the next, he accuses him of bad faith, of fighting a bad cause, of "ranting," and Lord knows what else. It's the sort of thing that we can call "trolling" without much of a stretch... and it's also the sort of thing I tend to see in really bad editorial writers and narrow-minded ideologues.
Even weirder are the odd references to Ellison's own work. There's refs to Titty Genovese, "The Teddy Crazy Show," the graduation-gown-covering bit, and perhaps a few others I didn't notice. Using a writer's words to score minor points in this style has usually struck me as being a bit creepy, and it has more than a whiff of the stalker.
Do we really need to go posting the "Don't Feed The Trolls" sign again?
"Case of First Impression". I think that is where the crux of the matter lies. By ruling in favor of AOL, the judge has saved Harlan the cost of a trial, and whether that trial had been won or lost, it most certainly would have been appealed to the Ninth Circuit Court, which as I understand it, is the bench most adequately schooled in this newly arisen segment of legal proceedings, having just recently ruled on the Napster case. As I also understand it, the judge's forty page brief (stating she had spent 100 hours researching this point of law) is four times the normal length of a brief that usually results from a case at this level. Forty pages seems anything by brief to me, and it certainly states to me that this case is far from over, having knowingly been turned over to the higher court for final decision. "Case of First Impression." Translation: There is history still to be written.
L.
PS. Zoë~ You rock, girlfriend. I had a blast and so did Bill.
>So Brian is saying that he would care more about a relative of his dying than the six million who died in the holocaust? Remember, Brian, relative worth? <
This is one of those moronic arguments that are occasionally a good time-waster at parties when the women have left, but have little other value. You know, the old Spider-Man makes a choice between the bus and the girl, yeah yeah...
Point is, Frank, that unless one wants to spend the rest of their life weeping in bed for all the cruelty and injustice in the world (and not just against humans, don't forget the 40 billion animals given the knife every year for your whopper), one has to to inure one's self pretty damn fast to tragedy and death. Compassion is always good to have on tap, but you will be drained very quickly if you attempt to keep the faucet on full blast at all times.
Anyone who claims that the death of someone close to them is emotionally as important as some political execution on the other side of the world, has, I would argue, very little understanding of empathy at all. Certainly they have little experience with real loss.
Damn right the death of my wife or son is more important to me than the death of six million Jews in the 1940s. That statement doesn't diminish the lives of those six million lost. To claim that it does, however, would be almost as dehumanizing as the processes that brought the Holocaust on in the first place.
Rick?
:)
Cindy
RAZ,
You wrote:
"And you don't do it for a beat (no one has used the term scoop in this business since 1950). You do it because it is your job to be fair and accurate in presenting the facts to the world."
You also wrote:
"That is what journalism is all about - telling the truth about folks who are supposed to be elected or appointed holders of the public trust - not tawdry sex scandals or that crap, but theft, extprtion and the like - or the life of the party who happens to be the leader of the local crime syndicate. Or telling the world what circumstances led a dear friend to run from the halls of the State Senate, not to be seen again until her body, its wrists slashed, is found in a favorite patch of woods.
Geeze, I must really be out of the loop here. I thought a "beat" was something that a cop walks..or something that one would dance to..or something that one would like to do to a punk who shows a decided lack of manners.
I recently covered a panel discussion on a local historical event. One of the panelists, a brilliant, witty professor from the University of Texas at Austin, smiled and shook my hand until I was identified as a member of the press. His warm smile vanished and he said, " I'm sorry."
I swear it seems like he actually wiped his hand on his pants. I flinched.
Those who report things to satiate the baser appetites of the public serve no purpose other than to muddy the water for the rest of us. I believe that reporting the news is of vital importance so long as that news informs, enlightens, protects or instructs. When it becomes something that is better done behind one's hand it stops being news and becomes something lower that is without redemption.
So how DID the guy that you respected die? What killed him? Did the lid of the community chest snap his neck like a chicken bone as he was ...how did you put it, " stealing from the public coffers"? You said you reported on the real story behind his death. I'd love to read that one. Also I'd like to see the one delving into the demise of the " dear friend" whose body with slashed wrists was found in a favorite patch of the woods. I think it would help me to get a better grasp of who and what you are. As it stands, geeze, with friends like you....
Reporting the news is a trust. By virtue of your words, in print or on the air,falling under the heading of "news" others will take what you say as truth. You must find the truth but you must also question your own motivation behind every story. Do you report it because people need to know-- or because it would make you feel like the next Carl Bernstien oh wait, he was from a different era... let's see... it would make you feel like the next "Steve" from Blue's Clues?
In any case, Harlan Ellison knows exactly what he is talking about when it comes to HIS lawsuit and you aren't open to hearing it..or so it would seem.
What sort of a reporter does THAT?
One more thing, you asked where I work? Here ya go..
http://www.knelradio.com/news.htm
I showed you mine.. now you show me yours. Where's your url? Maybe a link where I can read your stories. If I have misjudged you I would love to stand corrected. I would even apologize about using the word " scoop".. although this is 2002 and I AM in the business and I DO use the word.. normally when I'm being facetious.
:)
Cindy
Gunther,
Surprised you even thought that I thought that you were coming across as a smartarse? Nothing of the sort came in my mind, just genuine appreciation of being corrected.
Otherwise, don't worry about it.
FAQ
The reason Mr. Razler decided to post all this here is probably because the last e-mail I sent him didn't give him enough of whatever he was seeking:
I said: "You are welcome to your opinion as to the value of Harlan's suit and its effects on artists. I'll only ask you to respect my opinion as well, and I'll thank you to not accuse me of hiding "the truth" because it differs from yours."
DMR said: "The laws of rhetoric, that is to say the proper method of forming an opinion say it should be grounded in truth. The BNA copy of the decision (and we are dealing with an institution with a 100% record for accuracy publishing the actual document as signed, says youre rhetoric is flawed."
To which I replied: "There are a quite a few responses I could give but the simple fact is I doubt you are in the slightest interested in changing your mind and I don't care for your constantly accusatory attitude. I don't think further discussion with you on this matter would be anything more than a waste of my time."
...further developments here have shown my supposition about the value of discussing this matter with Mr. Razler to be spot on the money. So other than thanking Harlan et al for defending my integrity, I think leave it at that and go find something better to do with my time.
Jim --
theoretically you could UUencode the document and post it to the board, except it would look something like "$DFDGTRGH[FDG%RQEWFGFDH%6452" for lines and lines and lines.
(ducking and running)
*sigh* Okay, deep breath. . .
DMR wrote: "To another mis-reader of my comments - I said I would *like* to see the evidence, but understand how the volumes will not likely be posted because of length and cost of webspace."
You were nowhere near that clear. In your earlier post, you seemed to suggest that a failure to post these documents was evidence of some nefarious intent on Harlan's part. Given your other comments, I don't think this was such a wild misreading. Still, if you say that wasn't your meaning, then I accept that. I think.
(Exactly how DO you post a compressed file, anyway?)
If you'll bother to visit CEP's website, you'll clearly see that Harlan's suit is currently under appeal to the 9th Circuit Court. There's also a copy of the May 15 Ruling on attorney's fees, as well. Though you characterize yourself as a Bold Seeker of Truth, you're not very informed on the status of this case.
And when has ANYONE involved with Harlan or his lawsuit characterized the March 12 ruling as a victory of any kind? Please, site your sources. (Is this how your write your articles?)
Since when is it part of the journalist's creedo to walk into a room and try to pitch one side of an arguement to a group obviously in support of a particular point of view?
Since when does a journalist wander into a party of Republicans and say, "You've been misled. The Democrats are right on this issue."
We're obviously supporters of Ellison. While we aren't so blindly loyal to accept his word if he calls the sky green or happily look to him as some spiritual L. Ron Hubbard. We DO, however, believe in this cause, support him in his fight and your walking into a crowded room of supporters to say "YOU LOST!" is tantamount to walking up to a Hell's Angel and telling him that he's lost his mind if he thinks Harley makes a good hog. You're picking a fight.
You're not operating in an official capacity as a journalist, so stop hiding behind it.
"To another mis-reader of my comments - I said I would *like* to see the evidence, but understand how the volumes will not likely be posted because of length and cost of webspace."
Look, Mr. Razler, let's clarify this, with language that even you can easily understand. Yes, the verdict would seem to go against Mr. Ellison, it is a verdict by one level of the system, not beholden to stand above all others. It doesn't mean the decision arrived at by Judge Cooper is either right or cannot be appealed. In light of this, Ellison is correct to pursue whatever action he deems necessary, no matter what others think. If he feels the situation still requires redress, and the system allows this continuance, so be it. Consequently, I and others have the choice to support, or deny support as we see fit. And, for the right of poeple to own what they have created, I wholly support this. Not just for Mr. Ellison, but for any and all who justly demand the right to profit from their intellectual labours. Not exactly a legal argument, but a human one, and that's good enough cause for me.
You worry us with the length of any tome you might make to prove your point, yet do not take any pains to disprove the points made by CEP, or Ellison himself. The dammed evidence you claim doesn't exist rests right before your eyes and those of most others who have taken the time to peruse the decision. Any claims not to see the proof that you've made are because you've chosen to blind yourself.
Personally, sir, you're starting to bore me. Mr Ellison has a good idea in dismissing people from his existence. With his kind permission for usage of the concept, I now delete you.
BOS
No, Mr. Razler, you are not here out of largess. You didn't come here because you felt sorry for us poor, benighted, ill-read visitors to the Webderland domain. You did not, in other words, come here because, "because if you read Webderland alone, you'd be celebrating Harlan's great win. BUT IT IS NOT TRUE." You're a goofy gloater who delighted in Harlan's loss at the current stage, and you wanted to stir the shit. Pure and simple.
You knew there isn't much Harlan could say. Laywers are wise enough to tell their clients to shut up and let counsel do the talking. So you came here, in search of someone to fight with.
If you've been here before, you already knew that the people here comprise an advocacy group of sorts. And you also knew that we're a well-read bunch. We are aware, thankew veddy much your patronizinglyness, of the negative opinions on Harlan's prospects.
You came here to gloat and argue. Period.
And you may turn out to be right. After all, once Microsoft lost its suit, that was the end. I understand they're dividing into two companies any moment now.
Okay, Harlan may really lose in the end. But speaking as a writer, and as the owner of the oldest book and author site on the internet, I say that if he loses, we all lose. Even you, little though you understand that. And I am ashamed to see the term "freedom of speech" attached to theft. Gloat all you like, Mr. Razler. But don't kid yourself that you're doing anything but gloating.
--Alex
'DMR': Thank you, much, for the wonderful laughs, snorts and giggles, by way of your high and mighty diatribe here, recently. Journalists and journalism nowadays report the truth and facts?
HAH!
Stop it. Now. Please. I'm getting a laugh knot in my right side, just under the ribs.
Journalism and journalists nowadays report neither fact nor truth. You report the news, and the news is whatever it takes to keep you making your paycheck. Period.
Thanks again for the wonderful laugh. Let me know when you find Elvis and Janis Joplin, scootchin' to the likes of Garth Brooks while they work the grill and drive-in at a greasy burger in Alabama.
Now. What was it I came here for?
Oh, right. A question for either Mr. Harlan Ellison or other equally intelligent types: I was wading through some dusty tomes recently and came across an item that seemed to be about Harlan Ellison and Ray Harryhausen, possibly working together a number of years ago. I say 'seemed' to be about said gents because SOMEBODY tore a third of the page out of the book in question and certain information is now lost.
Harlan and Harryhausen? Working together? Whatta thing of beauty this could be. Please say it be true and real. Please?
Until next time. . .
Cindy:
I have identified my employer . And even given the circumstances, letsee, you identified me, you acted with knowledge of my employer
Where pray tell does Cindyana Jones work?
To another mis-reader of my comments - I said I would *like* to see the evidence, but understand how the volumes will not likely be posted because of length and cost of webspace.
Now if you think the evidence used by Judge Cooper in making her ruling is in any way secret, I suggest you go down to *watch* a public trial, beginning with pre-trial motions, evidence, complaints, briefs and answers. They are *ALL* public information and can be seen for the price of going to the courthouse and asking the clerk for the file. It is *public* information once submitted to the court.
To a correct observer - Yes, I came here as a shit-stirer because if you read Webderland alone, you'd be celebrating Harlan's great win. BUT IT IS NOT TRUE - unless the motion for summary judgmment is appealed and successfully overturned... Harlan lost the case against AOL. He beat Stephen Robertson. He got aid from some small ISPs who agreed that they will respond faster if he calls with a note saying "someone's violating my copyright", and, virtually agreement from AOL that it will preserve his copyright, not by eliminating *just* illegally-posted Ellisonia, but by closing down one sleeay little newsgroup - which, like the rest of us, enjoy free speech.
dmr
If HE appeals (someone let me know if he indeed has) then the appeal will *not* involve new evidence - that will come *only* if Judge Cook is overturned and the matter is remanded for a jury trial.
To quote one of my teachers, one of the nation's top investigators during the 1950s-80s, now in retiirement. I really like XXXXXXXXX. He's a nice guy. And I'll sure feel bad when I print the stuff that sends him off to jail.
That is what journalism is all about - telling the truth about folks who are supposed to be elected or appointed holders of the public trust - not tawdry sex scandals or that crap, but theft, extprtion and the like - or the life of the party who happens to be the leader of the local crime syndicate. Or telling the world what circumstances led a dear friend to run from the halls of the State Senate, not to be seen again until her body, its wrists slashed, is found in a favorite patch of woods.
And you don't do it for a beat (no one has used the term scoop in this business since 1950). You do it because it is your job to be fair and accurate in presenting the facts to the world.
Ah, Sarcastic Mastermind, you forgot:
"Slobbering, feces-encrusted troglodyte who cannot muster two surviving brain cells to rub together in a desperate attempt to spark a coherent thought..."
No need to thank me, my good man; I was just doing my duty.
BOS urges you to control the Smokey Bear population by having your hat-wearing ursines spayed or neutered...Try doing it your self without any anaesthetics, I dare ya!
FAISAL --
you didn't mention it, but I just wanted to make clear that I was not trying to be a smartass, which I fear is how my last post could be misconstrued, since I posted the references without comment.
I'm not even sure if that last sentence was correct English, but let me assure you I *wasn't* trying to say "ooh, this Faisal is such a moron" but trying to give you a few pointers to why I was wondering about this in the first place.
A quick comment as I leave for Vegas...
Much thanks to HE and Susan and Lynn and Bill and Zoe for letting me tag along for dinner yesterday--it was great! Even better was getting the opportunity to meet you all in person--you are all even nicer than you seem online.
--lg
RAZ wrote;
"Look, I'm a reporter, and I've had to report truth I didn't like telling - acquaintances doing bad stuff, the real story behind the death of a man I respected, Singing the praises of a politician I despise for other reasons for doing something good."
I'm a broadcast reporter. Out of professional curiosity, I wonder what the stories were behind your acquaintances doing "bad stuff" and "the real story behind the death of a man" you "respected." You must have had good reasons for doing that sort of reporting... other than getting "the scoop".
RAZ, do you work for the Enquirer?
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
See Scott? I'm kind too!
:)
Cindy
BOS: Hey, I didn't even use the phrases "fulla shit," "microcephalic mutterings of unbearable fatuity," and "obvious manifestations of an organic brain disorder" ONCE.
Does this mean we're getting soft?
Oh, by the way: Charlie Petit IS CEP. He's also the Silver Sleepwalker (that's what the "Your Superhero Name" website says, anyway).
PERSONAL NOTE TO DMR: Yes, I've been having some fun at your expense. But your continual impugning of Rick's, Charlie's, and, yes, even Harlan's motives is pissing me off, to put it lightly. Restrict your arguments to the KNOWN facts of the case, and you'll get a little more respect here. (You'll still be wrong, but, hey, I never promised you a rose garden. . .)
Does anyone have any thoughts on Westercon?
DMR:
I don't mind the comments, but I don't respect a person who can't confront the wrongness of his basic arguments, so wonderfully put by CEP and Charlie (I hope I've remembered you both correctly). Please sir, brevity is the source of wit. In your case, you provide excelllent evidence that the lack of the former guarantees the bereft of the latter.
Might I also suggest not pulling a Shropshire in maligning Mr. Ellison's fight for ownership of the fruits of his intellect, masked by your lauding his efforts in other areas. Your pill is poison; the chocolate coating doesn't fool anyone.
See, Jim? We're becoming a kinder, gentler people here. Look ma, no Valiums!
Washu: Smokey retired? I thought it was a case of rabies...
BOS
So. . .
Posting the rulings on CEP's website isn't enough?
HARLAN'S LAWYERS SHOULD POST COMPLETE TRANSCRIPTS OF *ALL* DOCUMENTS ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE IN A LAWSUIT THAT IS *STILL* WINDING ITS WAY THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM, AS WELL?
Nope, nothing unreasonable here, nosiree bob...
Dear Mr. Razler,
Just whom are you kidding here?
You came here not as a reporter, but as a shit-stirrer. This is not your publication. You sent a note to Harlan, privately, and that's cool; but you came here to the board to raise a ruckus.
The court case will wend its way through the courts, with no interest in what you say here, or in how we respond. You came here to take a poke at the natives. And for no other reason.
--Alex
DEAR MR. RAZLER:
Thank you for your letter. I appreciate the time and effort you have expended in my behalf. If I might ask, however, I would take it as a kindness if you would not impugn the honesty of my friend, Rick Wyatt who, as Webmaster here, has been above reproach in his honesty and attention to relating the facts in my ongoing lawsuit. As I presume it was merely an unfortunate overstatement, a slip of the tongue, a bit of hyperbole, I'm sure it can be overlooked.
But, again, thank you for your letter, and your concerns.
Respectfully,
Harlan Ellison
Gunther,
Thank you very much for the references. I cite crappy interpretation of the text as my feeble excuse.
Now that you put it like that... I kind of doubt they will be coloured... not unless they start bitching about homies, massah and Ged shooting up crack while recovering in the ghetto (OK, that was low but working in TV here makes a person very cynical when it comes to portraying dramas set in other cultures. "I know whats important in the black community," a TV development person tells me... images of Bamboozled leap into my head).
FAQ
Joseph re: "In One Day?":
Well, it was a very, very long tracking shot.
Cheers, Jon
FAQ: Thanks for the tip on _Ulzana's Raid._ I think _Night Moves_ is a gem of a hardboiled detective/modern film noir, right up there with _Cutter's Way_ among films of that type that I ran across mainly by chance.
Race in Fantasy: Hey, Morgan Freeman would have made a terrific Gandalf. The racial material in LOTR is always a bit galling -- hey, look, Middle Earth's Asian (Haradrim) and African (Southron) races signed up with Sauron! And Middle Earth's aborignes (the Pukelmen) are, well, pretty embarrassing. Tolkien does give Sam an epiphany in which Sam wonders whether all the Southern races have been forced by Sauron to fight for him, which is at least a grace note.
TTFN, Jon
What is this? Troll week? Deliberate misrepresentation of the facts day? Skipping over relevant passages month? Sheesh - what a way to start the week.
Re: CEP's comments "and by the way" 6/Jul/2002.
Well, CEP, you are lucky I am a limited-purpose public figure, as are we all on this board.
You certainly *HAVE* misrepresented my letter at http://pub53.ezboard.com/fkickinternetpiracyfrm1.showMessage?topicID=4.topic
Written 13Mar01 - it runs to 500 words or so and you have terribly wronged me and even mis-attributed the source of my comments on Napster - they come from an attorney
If it were not a click away, I'd copy the whole thing here.
I am going to break my previous silence and post - in its entire, the letter I sent to Our Host with request it be sent on to The Man Himself:
Dear WebBoss (and Harlan, if this ever reaches you)
The outcome of the Ellison v AoL suit, as recorded in the professional press appears to conflict with Webderland's alleged goal of keeping folks accurately informed about the Man who Spawned 100 Urban Legends. Look, I'm a reporter, and I've had to report truth I didn't like telling - acquaintances doing bad stuff, the real story behind the death of a respected person, a politician I despise for other reasons doing something good.
It is part of the business. Harlan has lost the case, should lose the case, and should never have brought it, wasting his resources, both time and economic on a crusade to blame a common carrier for the misdeeds of people stealing his work - who have already, as far as I remember, ceased and desisted. Harlan has the same power I've used to stop an individual from misusing his writing - by contacting the poster or the ISP.
That's not the question here. Harlan decided to go after an ISP for not shutting down a conduit he saw as having no value other than to pirate his and others' works. That is not the legitimate role of a newsgroup, but one does not smash a press because it was misused by one of the people allowed to use it.
And you, my colleague in journalism, have to report the facts in full - posting the whole decision is a good start - posting the summary is another.
As for you, Harlan, if this mss. ever reaches you: Like it or not, I consider you one of the nation's finest living writers, probably one of the greatest living writers working in English, and I consider you a friend in the same way a girl might if she was given something to cover her gown when she was spotting at high school graduation. We first met the *first* time you came to the State U of NY at Stony Brook, you were plugging Deathbird Stories in a remote cafeteria and I was trying to interview you while a Harlan-Fannist kept interrupting us with various obscure points about identity thieves and people who had been sending you hate mail and the kind of inside baseball no audience wants to hear.
I was scared to death, expecting you to do, well what has, unfortunately lately become your stock in trade, I think I suggested David Gerrold (a disastrous interview 'cause the guy was into charring everything deigning to share the same room with him, but I really feared The Legendary Ill-Mannered Harlan.
I discovered that you are (shhh, if you don't want to admit it to the world) one of the kindest, most decent people I had ever met, period. Torn and stung, and ready to explode, especially against the massive injustice of the sort done to Kitty Genovese by her neighbors or the Kent State 4 by state Guardsmen, yes - but not at some dumb kid trying to go from print to radio for a semester and finding himself in a tough bind. I am sorry that whenever I try to speak with you and there's a group around, most of the group is not seeking Harlan, they're seeking Teddy Crazy and you are giving it to them.
Back to the subject at hand: Anyone who reads your works know you have no problem writing - just rip open a vein and bleed, then shape the blood into something with a life of its own - more than golems, you give life to things out of your own flesh and memories, not simple mud and somewhat tiring ritual.
And you treat these creations (as well you should) as your children, attempting to make sure they get a good start in life with a splashy first publication with good, if any, illustrations every word set out correctly spelled... then watch as they grow, joining others in collections, keeping them out of the hands of folks who would abuse them by either planting cigarette ads within their pages or even offering them with typos by the dozen. You have made sure everything you don't wish to have had published when you shuffle off this mortal coil is NEVER published, though I do hope your papers will be placed in a proper vault where at least my niece may read them some day.
Plainly, anyone who guillotines your books and feeds them into a scanner and gives them away without your due reward is a criminal. I don't subscribe to this Information Wants to Be Free trash or the attitude of Well You Can't Stop It.
And I am certainly no friend of AoL, providing pseudo-access to the web and tight monitoring of its users, running sites and contests dedicated to plugging the books published by another corporate division, turned into movies by a second, and reviewed by a third. We have an administration dedicated to allowing the concentration of wealth and power in the business to a degree where soon independent publishing and bookselling will be all but barred by the distribution chain, and priceless Mark Ziesing editions (not to mention shops run by crazies like Mark) will be things of the past.
But this time you went about it the wrong way. Harlan, I love you, and like-it-or-not (as you ranted during a recent I-Con small-group lecture) you have probably not saved, but transformed my life with your children more than anyone except two dozen others (no, you cannot outdo Mom or Dad, sorry).
And, as someone who loves you and cares about you, I feel it is my place to tell you when I think you are doing something wrong. Now that Samizdat is not necessary in most of the world, go after its creators and make them pay what they owe and acknowledge the damage done. But do not go after the transportation mechanism. Back on Sept. 11, I lost a friend smeared against the Pentagon wall because she took the wrong plane. Since that day I have lost three quarters of my rights. Make that your target, I mean first they came for the Arabs and I did not speak up because I was scared, then they came for the American Muslims, and I remembered the rest of the story.
This country is disappearing people - and attempting to limit access to the means of communication. Had your action been successful, it might have been used in kind.
In the years before your birth, wars broke out among Edison's corporations and Victor Talking Machines over whether one company could make a player that could play another company's recordings. The RIAA and MPAA have recently tried to insure that when I buy a disk containing sound or images, I am only buying the right to play it on approved hardware with their approved software. How long can this be until "books" are licensed and the libraries become a thing of the past? Had you won, your suit would have helped push us in this direction.
As Susan said to me [at the I-Con where you were outraged about accepting the claims that your work *helped* people because you would then have to accept claims that it damaged others (who, if anyone looked, were damaged anyway and would find their cause to act in Helter Skelter or the patterns of the clouds in the sky or their inner voices)] "We're only going after thieves".
Do that! A few well-publicized busts of folks making endless copies of your work will cut down on the number willing to take a chance. Have your friends auto-search the 'net on a regular basis to stop the piracy! But stop the pirates and not the ocean they operate in - for it will overwhelm you, or, if you are successful, you will do more harm than good.
Fight good fights - but know your enemy. (I wonder who will be left to speak up when they come for us).
And do a Readercon or something and *refuse* to do Teddy Crazy - let the audience choke as Harlan does caring, though angry at injustice , unwilling to give in to those who do anyone wrong. Harlan, Spend a whole session reading in that magic way that can chase Susan from the room in tears. Talk to small groups chosen at random.
Tell the Boss of Webderland to report the truth, too.
David M. Razler
HOME ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER DELETED from original
-----------------------------------------------------------------
OK, now that I have bled for everyone's amusement:
1) Is it wrong to find that it is an obscenity to destroy a peer-to-peer exchange system that was mis-used by folks to pirate music and properly used by various folk to transmit tapes of seminars? Yep, Napster folks are just like the folks who made beer bottles during Prohibition or all those folks making rolling paper who never sell loose tobacco.
All three shamelessly encourage violations of the law - but are themselves doing nothing illegal themselves - Napster is the sole exception.
Was I overzelous in calling actions like the EvR et al suit "obscene" yes, that's rhetoric. Stomping on a legitimate means of communication because some folks misuse it offends my First Amendment absolutism, but does not *quite)rise to the level of segregation and murder because there are, right now, ways around the closing of one group for a new writer to distribute his/her work gratis to an audience expecting "the good stuff".
The correct target of The suit, Robertson, described by Judge Cooper as simply "an overenthusiastic fan" (Decision of Mar 12, p1 line 19 -first line of the introduction). I do not know any more about him than the judge's two-word description.
As for AOL's request for costs, I still have not read it, though I have what purports to be a copy of the decision of denial - my apologies - I did not come across it during the search, NOR am I sure I have a true copy YET. If AOL's lawyers did indeed distort Judge Cooper's rulings and findings, they certainly go down as ultimate fools in my book under the basic rule of law that "1)the judge not only *thinks* s/he is intelligent and all-powerful, the judge *is* intelligent and all-powerful."(C)19?? by this author
As for my knowledge of the evidence, all I know is what Judge Cooper said she saw in the evidence before her (see decision p.4 lines 14-21. You and other members of the legal team were unable to prove that like TCO, which acknowledged receiving its mail, that AOL ever saw a copy, and could not persuade the judge otherwise.(decisionP.11 line 9)"The court accepts AOL employees' assurance that they never received the e-mail" though acknowledging (ibid l.18) "....AOL's failure to receive the April 17,2000 e-mail is its own fault..."
WHAT was the nature of the gag order that blocked evidence that they had? This form of "protective order" is most unusual, and I would love to see the evidence admitted and a copy of the order posted.
Yeh, I know the evidence file weighs in at about 10 lbs and the transcripts probably weigh in at 40, but I would love to see them, as would a lot of other folks. I am *not* surprised you haven't posted a compressed 1-gig file of the above material.
I cited BNA *strictly* as a reliable source of a copy of the decision with the shorter URL. I have not read any further reports from the organization on the action.
ADMITTED: You know this case better than I do, though I am not positive of your role (please excuse me - I do not mean to insult the lead counsel, I honestly do not know!) AND you know Federal civil procedure and the rules of the district court in general far better than I do.
BUT: All I have to go on is Judge Cooper's Mar. 12 opinion *and* a strong feeling about what is right and wrong when it comes to free speech.
It is certainly WRONG to PUBLISH onto a common carrier, or make accessable via public carrier copyrighted materials you do not have permission to distribute - it is THEFT!
And the thief, a very ignorant person at the least, has been punished with a penalty that sounds rather damaging to the individual - and a good object lesson to the rest of would-be violators.
It is also wrong, and potentially a danger to free speech to hold a common carrier responsible for the huge load of material that flows through its system on a daily basis. It should be noted here that anyone who is comfortable reading from a CRT had a total of 14 days to happen to catch and read Harlan's stories as posted.
It could *even* be argued that the appearance of these binary files on a little-known news group represents a de minimus loss, and NOBODY downloaded them, though you should have the information on the exact count.
But now an entire news group has been shut down
Another underground paper is gone.
Another path for our words to travel completely silenced because of one abuser.
dmr
More remakes. Oh, goodie.
BOS: I'm not sure if you already know this, but Smokey the Bear is officially retired. Someone high up finally realized that a good deal of forest fires are GOOD, as they clear out the forest floor and any severe overgrowth. NATURAL forest fires, that is, not idiot-made infernos.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Oh, and Venkman? Thanks a hell of a lot. Now I'm obsessed with getting past $250,000 on that damn trivia game.
Regards,
Joseph
Faisal --
A description of Ogion in "A Wizard of Earthsea":
"He was a dark man, like most Gontishmen, dark copper-brown; grey-haired, lean and tough as a hound, tireless."
Arha on Ged in "Tombs of Atuan":
"His skin is dark, perhaps he is from the Inner Lands."
And Le Guin in an interview:
"If you look at my books, you'll find that most of my central characters are people of color. You don't notice it particularly and you don't see it on the cover. They refuse to put people of color on book jackets because they don't sell. But I've always done that deliberately because most of the people of the world aren't white."
We'll see what happens.
Gunther and Faisal:
I did like, not love, the original PBS production of TLOH, more for the performances of Davidson and Morrow, and a good script by Roger Swaybill. The performances and writing did bring out both the internal struggle of George Orr and the theme of demanding restraint in the use of power found in the novel. Visually, it won't fare as well as the remake; the original was made of a spaghetti-strand budget (couldn't even afford a shoe string), and the production suffered for it, especially in the climactic scene.
I just hope the remake doesn't suffer from an emphasis on slickness and novelty over an well-crafted examination of an interesting premise.
BOS
Faisal,
I'm with you on "Lathe of Heaven." It was fairly good, but certainly not what everyone has been raving about. Has some nice points too it, though; Bruce Davison does a fantastic job, I think. Also, it gets points for trying. So many shows and specials just sit there that it's nice to see something on TV that takes chances.
Regards,
Joseph
I've tried to get to $1 million in this game and the best I've been able to do is walk away with $500K. The first half are easy, but they get wicked after $18,000.
Who wants to be a cool movie zillionaire?
http://www.cool-movie-trivia.com/Flash/CMTMillion.html
A remake of the Lathe of Heaven.... well, why not? I finally bought the original on DVD and showed it to a few friends who had never even heard of the film, though were big fans of the book. We were not impressed.
Here's the good things about the re-make, its directed by Philip Haas, who did The Music of Chance. And its adapted by Alan Sharp... whatyoumeanyouneverheardofAlanSharp!?! This is the man who wrote Ulzana's Raid and Night Moves? Get those two movies out immediately. True his name also appears on Dammnation Alley but he can probably take as much blame as HE did for The Oscar.
So why worry? It's Alan Sharp. He's good, lets give it a chance. And James Caan is an actor I'll give time for (I must be the only person who sat through Eraser for Caan...).
The Sci-Fi channel is doing the Earthsea trilogy and I hope they would have followed Michael Powell's guidance on barely using any visual FX (Fascinating fact, Powell wanted to direct the Earthsea novels, read about it in his second volume of memoirs, Million Dollar Movies).
Its co-adapted by one of the writers on LOTR though I doubt commercial television is ready for the adventures of non-caucaucasion folks unless 'Massa' or 'Homies' appear in the dialogue track (actually, thats unfair. US Films and TV has more opportunities for coloured film makers in comparison to Europe).
Funnily enough, I never even thought Ged's folk were coloured, I always imagined them to be Shetland island dwellers, all rough sea faring, hill farming folk.
I just pray its better then the mess then the TV Dune...
FAQ
WHOOF!
Finally caught up on 300-odd messages, after returning from the Vacation From Hell (which would actually have been a fun li'l family reunion in Orlando had it not been characterized by my father's going through his second-ever manic episode and nervous breakdown--he's getting treatment now, thanks, but the road looks to be long and arduous). You people sure can't be called closemouthed ...
BOS: A remake of "Lathe of Heaven"? IS NOTHING SACRED?
On second thought, starring Lisa Bonet? I take back what I just said :)
Which brings me to the proposed miniseries of A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA... anyone know if this has ever been commissioned? And how good old Hollywood will deal with the people of Gont being (gasp) not white and all?
Todd: As Chris put it, you're in NJ, and you're worried about smells? Reminds me of that joke:
A couple deep in amorous intent lie curled up together in the back seat of his car. The kissing and touching brings on passion in the woman, who suddenly blurts out:
"Oh baby, kiss me where it smells. DO IT NOW!!!"
He immediately gets in behind the wheel, and drives to New Jersey.
Actually, we're getting it bad up here in Ontario too. Friend of mine today commented that it smells like we're all living in a big pile of burning leaves. It got to looking a bit baleful outside this afternoon, with the smoke high in the atmosphere really turning the sky a brownish grey, the sun having a noticable orange tinge.
Texas being flooded over, Colorado being burned under, Quebec ablaze, New Jersey emitting odors, George Bush as president...
It's the apocalypse, I tells ya!
That reminds me of a joke...
Q: What's the last thing a stripper in Arkansas takes off in her nightclub act?
A: Her bowling shoes.
BOS
For anyone who wants to see DMR's hidden (or not-so-hidden) agenda, may I suggest a visit to
http://pub53.ezboard.com/fkickinternetpiracyfrm1.showMessage?topicID=4.topic
which includes such choice statements as "This suit, and the suits which ended with the current Napster ruling are obscenities - just as the injustices Harlan has fought through his actions and writing (let's start with bigotry not to mention the murder of the artist by editors) are injust and obscene." (I don't think that's out of context, and y'all can check the context yourselves.)
DMR:
Just what have your attorneys been smoking? Seriously. It is not only normal for the "prevailing party" to ask for attorney's fees in a copyright action (and particularly so on summary judgment), but it may constitute malpractice to fail to do so. The Copyright Act specifically provides for it (read Judge Cooper's opinion of 15 May, in which she quotes both the text and the most relevant interpretations). After Fogerty v. Fantasy, it's clear that the award of attorney's fees is at least in theory on the same basis for prevailing defendants as it is for prevailing plaintiffs.
You should be glad that you didn't have to deal with AOL's motion. Between a sense of moral outrage at distortion of the record--to which Judge Cooper responded in her footnote, stating that the only instance of improper tactics had been AOL's misquotation of her prior ruling, compounded by misstatement of its effect, that led her to consider sanctions against AOL's counsel ON HER OWN MOTION in October--and laughter at the poor quality of the brief, it was not an easy thing to deal with. Fortunately, one of my colleagues over at Kulik had already done all of the essential research, and it was just a matter of plugging in citations to the record. (Thanks, Bridgit.)
And yes, it was a serious matter. AOL asked for "an estimated" $650k in legal fees. I don't know about you, but that sure as hell wouldn't make me happy to pay them.
[indignation]
DMR, a rational individual simply cannot credit your assertions. First of all, you have not seen the evidence in the matter. Your characterization that "AOL responded as soon as it knew about it" is WRONG on the facts, which are not crystal clear in the March opinion due to a protective order (but Judge Cooper notes in her opinion that a jury could find that AOL DID have constructive notice). Second, BNA may in general be respected, but this time they blew it: their initial news reports were rewrites of AOL's news release (which carefully neglected to say a damned thing about the facts), and they did not correct the errors until six weeks after they were pointed out to them.
Bluntly, you clearly don't know enough about civil procedure in general, the procedural history of this matter, copyright law, or the particular facts in this case to be making the broad and disparaging remarks that you've made.
[/indignation]
JOSEPH: Nope, not yet. Come monday and we'll see if it's arrived.
Cheers,
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Chuck,
So far so good here-- but it threatens and there is another storm predicted. A little south it's far worse. I'm on high ground where I am-- others are not so fortunate.
Here's hoping the fires die and the flood is transformed into something softer and more gently soaking. We've had sustained drought here for over two years.. national disaster designation and all. We had to sell a lot of cattle and calves before they were ready because there simply wasn't anything for them to eat.
Now one hates to breath a bad word about rain in any form; but for the plight of those poor folks south of here you wouldn't hear a peep from me.
Add to the flood and the drought, the Tuberculosis debacle and we've all been nearly sent to the ground.
But we're all still kicking and that's the main thing. We'll keep our fingers crossed that things level out soon.
Meantime you stay safe, Chuck.
:)
Cindy
VENK,
Well, it made ME laugh when I wrote it.
:)
You're READING it! You're a dollbaby.
Cindy
**We just came out of the movies here in NJ and we noticed a strange haze and smell.**
And you found this surprising? Did you just move to New Jersey? :)
Hey Cindy, Sweety, Bubbie...
"If I gave in now, I'd end up like all the others. (BEAT) Just another chip in your king size bag of Lays,"
I'm not sure exactly HOW I feel about it, but that line sure sticks out.
Hey, Scott, can you keep your smelly wildfires to yourselves? We just came out of the movies here in NJ and we noticed a strange haze and smell.....no matter how far we drove, the smell followed....the sun was a red disk in the sky.
End of the world?
Nope, the news tells us that a wildfire in Quebec is blowing it's exhaust over us 'mericans.
Damn, you guys are sure stinking up my Saturday. For a minute there, I thought those jokes about New Jersey always smelling were finally coming true and I had never noticed.
-TODD
Frankenheimer's death pisses me off. A great director handed more and more crappy jobs as the years went by. That, and his DVD commentaries are among the best by anybody - I learned a hell of a lot from his insightful commentary for "The Manchurian Candidate."
Woah - Never nominated for an Academy Award? How did that happen?
Checking CNN.com for news, I see that General Benjamin O. Davis Jr. (ret.) has passed at 89. First African-American General and the head of the Tuskegee Airmen. Helped integrate the USA armed forces.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Little Washu, any sign of the book I sent you yet?
My superhero name is the Super Executioner. Neat!
And appropriately enough, I shall now reply to Frank Church's gnomish question, "So Brian is saying that he would care more about a relative of his dying than the six million who died in the holocaust? Remember, Brian, relative worth?"
You bet I _would_, and I _do_, Frank, and relative worth ain't got nothing to do with it. When they closed the lid on my mom's coffin, my hard-won composure snapped. If I hear my Dad's had a heart attack, and we won't get to fix his back porch like we've been planning, I'll probably collapse in tears and mourn for a week.
As for the Holocaust... sorry, Frank, but not even Raul Hilberg's work on the subject can get me to work up the same degree of tears and heartbreak. There's horror, and dismay, and the nice chunk'o world-pain that one gets when reading about the twelve-to-thirteen million killed in the camps, but it ain't nowhere _near_ the same as direct, immediate grief.
I don't know what that makes me in Frank's catalogue, but I'd love to know exactly how one _should_ apportion one's grief. He seems to invoke numerical standards (about half of the people murdered in the Holocaust), the wealth or perceived emotional openness of the victim (John Entwhistle), or whether they're victims of U.S foreign policy. These strike me as being rather cold-blooded standards. And they do require a bit of pre-consideration _before_ letting oneself experience grief.
Aaaaaaah, damn it.
John Frankenheimer, 72, just passed away. I honestly don't care if he was responsible for the Marlon Brando ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU. Any man who directed one of the ultimate cinematic experiences of my life, SECONDS, will forever be A-OK in my book.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
First, drought and wildfires here in Colorado. Now, Flooding in Texas. Geez. How are the Texas Webderlanders doing? Cindiana? Keeping dry down there? Could y'all send US some of that water? Tell you what. We'll bail and you put out the fires. How's that?
Chuck
Hmmm...the name above is who as a Bag-O-Scott; as my alter ego Reeston, I become "The Dark Thunderball"...
I guess "The Rinkmaster" was taken.
BOS
Should I be disturbed that Jesus Christ is "The Magnificent Executioner"?
Always,
"The Foot-Stomping Dominator"
JAY/VENKMAN: You're absolutely right! It was Lorenzo Music who was the actor, not Peter Venkman, and have I ever mentioned that I should never post anything before my first bite of breakfast? (My favorite Music creation? Carlton, your doorman, of course.)
And since we're talking about pseudonyms, here's a site to find your superhero name: http://gfishbone.com/heroname.php
If I use the short version of my name, I'm the Dark Ranger.
If I use the long version, however, I'm the Sarcastic Mastermind. (Needless to say, I prefer this one.)
And Harlan? He's the Great and Mighty Warlord.
Jim -
Re: Your Message in the Pavillion.
As long as I continue to NOT receive pleas in my email from African revolutionaries wanting to borrow my bank account, you can call me anything you want.
Venkman is a nickname and it does go back to Peter, who was voiced by the late Lorenzo Music (and later by Dave Coulier)in the cartoon series who, indeed, voiced our beloved Garfield created by one Jim Davis! Four Degrees of Separation!
Now, you could also link to HE in three! Venkman who was voiced by Music in episodes (the better ones) written by J. Michael Straczynski who worked with HE on Bablyon 5. :)
So Brian is saying that he would care more about a relative of his dying than the six million who died in the holocaust? Remember, Brian, relative worth?
SEE? See how polite I can be? I didn't even ONCE say, "Aren't you fucking ashamed of yourself for running off at the mouth at damn near interminable length when even a cursory glance at the posts of the last week would have annulled easily half of your lame-brained screed before you sent it spinning into the electronic ether?!?"
I'm tellin' ya, folks, it's like a brand-new me.
DAVID M. RAZLER: Actually, Charlie Petit has already directed everyone to his website, where the March 12 and May 15 decisions can be found. (Go to http: www.authorslawyer.com/c-ellison.shtml)
You're right. I don't want to get into another catfight about this, nor am I 100% qualified to parse the legalisms in the March 12 decision. But you're dead wrong that "there is no evidence...that AOL asked for attorney's fees." The May 15 ruling on Attorney's Fees is VERY clear on this matter. There's been no deception here.
Charly:
1) I have been told by my IP lawyers that in this kind of matter, neither asking for, nor receiving attorney's fees in this kind of situation is usual.
2) I agree, every loser in a case like this gets an automatic shot at an appeal *on the record* which, as Judge Cooper stated, is fairly weak for Harlan. We will have to see....
Scotty-
The bambino is doing wonderfully. He's a little over a pound. All tests performed have been negative if positive means bad vice versa.
Pam is tired, moody, hormonal, and all the things pregnant women get to be when carrying an extra twenty-five pounds of protobaby material. She is also glowing, excited healthy and happy, which is most important. I, of course, am suffering from sympathy pains. She suggested I strap a sack of cement on my belly for five months if I'm feeling particularly guilty.
You're absolutely right about the past. Digging up the old 'rents emotionally or physically would only hurt the present and endanger the future. I was just bringing it up in case your momentary spleen vent was part of a larger vent in reality. Ever thought of building snow-people on the ice at the rink then driving over them with the zamboni?
Venk
Excuse me, but what is a summary judgment?
Cindy
One other comment I will add. The reason we have appellate courts is because trial courts make decisions which are contrary to the facts and the law which require reversal. Even though the trial judge's decision may be a final decision, it is not engraved in stone at this point.
David R: I have not read the 40 pp. opinion so I can not comment on your other statements; however, I can tell you, that as an attorney, I have obtained attorney's fees when obtaining a summary judgment numerous times and it is not an unusual circumstance to receive them or ask for them at summary judgment.
My friends, and fellow lovers of Harlan Ellison and his works:
YOU HAVE BEEN MISLED by a lot of comments posted on this site Re: Ellison v. S.Robertson, America Online, et.al, UD Dist. Coutr, Cent. Dist. of Ca. CV 00- 04321 FMC (RCx) and its outcome.
I am not going to get into a catfight here about what the decision says - I am going to lay on you TWO locations where PDFs of the Mar. 12 decision has been filed. Read it, and, if you get bogged down in 40 dense pages, ask a lawyer to explain, and a short version on how I humbly interpret it.
The sites are:
http://pub.bna.com/ptcj/0004321.pdf
A publication of one of the most respected legal reporter publishers in the country, and
http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/CACD/RecentPubOp.nsf/bb61c530eab0911c882567cf005ac6f9/47819ca5ada002af88256b7c006a4494?OpenDocument
from the court itself
No claims have been found that the decision is not a 100% accurate copy of the decision as issued.
There is a somewhat flawed (because it focuses soly on the DMCA issues raised, not the older matters of copyright) analysis by a DMCA specialist attorney at www.phillipsnizer.com/int-art263.htm
I have humbly asked our host to publish all the filings in the case, or at least the 40-page ruling. I also asked him to submit an attached letter to HE regarding why I am happy a man who has had a profound interest in my life lost a suit.
I hope it is forwarded - I'd post ot here, but it is a rather personal comment.
The short-form of the judge's opinion1-AOL acted as soon as it received notice of violation, which came in the form of a lawsuit - The judge accepted AOL's claim it did not receive an initial e-mail, nor did HE's counsel demonstrate it did. AOL met the intense test for summary judgment against plaintiff The remainder of the decision explains why AOL is protected both by a) 100 years of Common Carrier law and copyright law in general and b) the DCMA.
It should be noted there is no evidence, in the decision, that AOL asked for legal fees, since no request for fees is standard procedure in a summary judgment claim - if you want a summary judgment, you don't get legal fees.
Brian's about pegged my feelings on the question of death and emotional proximity, so not much more to add on that. I feel badly for a few minutes about the loss of a person whose talent I've respected; I'll grieve the loss of my brothers and sister for quite some time.
I'm no basket case by any means. This morning, as the housecleaning moves on, I'm tormenting the wife by singing "I've Got A Brand New Pair Of Roller Skates (You've Got A Brand New Key)" by Melanie in my finest Tiny Tim falsetto. After about three runs through the chorus, Mel began repeated attempts on my life. It's okay; the kids are now singing it repeatedly, and Mel's got a murderous gleam in her eye.
Venkster: Well, I can't go dig up pater and mater, and I've not the skills to change the past. It'll have to dissipate on its own. I guess Kant's aphorism about the future being where one should live applies. It's a lot more fun than the past, in my case.
BTW, How's the ripening of your newest loinfruit coming along?
Saw a broadcast of a half hour making of documentary for the A&E production of "The Lathe of Heaven". It'll star Lukas Haas as Orr, James Caan as Haber, and Lisa Bonet as Lalache. The production values will supercede the original, but I suspect that the production won't be as strong as the original PBS production. I was left feeling that the producer and director were taking the approach of emphasizing the technical gimmick of Orr's reshaping reality, without really considering the consequences of engineeering the dreams. Still, I'll wait and watch, and hope I'm wrong.
With that, I'm gone.
"I've got a brand new pair of rollerskates
You've got a brand new key
I think that we should get together and
Try them on to see
I been lookin around awhile
You got something for me
I got a brand new pair of rollerskates
You got a brand new key..." Everybody, Sing!!!!!!!!!!
BOS
I'll add a few comments on the David Loftus/Frank Church brouhaha. (Brou ha ha? Ha ha ha.)
As bad as it sounds, the deaths of a thousand people a thousand miles away won't affect us as much as a single death that's near and immediate. The story of a wedding in Afghanistan being bombed is awful, and it's a tragedy... but if the old lady who lives across the street from me were to die peacefully in her bed tonigt, I'd feel worse about _that_.
Conversely, if I were living in Afghanistan in late 2001, and I heard about a couple of thousands of people in America being killed by terrorists, I'd be saddened and shocked... but I'd probably be more upset if a child or a parent in the local village was killed in some stupid accident.
This is _normal_, gang. It may not raise us to the ideals of universal love and continual awareness of man's inhumanity to man, but it doesn't make us Nazi fucks who adjust to mass murder by depersonalizing the victims. It's _normal_.
That's what bugs me about Frank's comments. His cries of greater sadness over those killed in Afghanisan, and the dismissal of the theoretical deaths of his parents, or the blithe comment about John Entwhistle's status as a "privileged" human, strike me as a pose and an affectation. "Oh, you're sad about a rock star? You'd be upset about your _parents_? Well, _I_ get upset over _Third World people_ being _bombed, how do you like _that_ for moral superiority?"
That's being _charitable_. Because, if Frank really _was_ being honest, then he'd be operating in a radically different moral framework than the rest of us. And it doesn't strike me as being an especially humane or honest one.
Point taken David Loftus. Craggy mutterings fail me now. But I do see myself as a Jew, even though I am not Jewish, and as a Palestinian, even though I am not Arab. I see humanity as a collective whole and that collective energy mass needs a kick in the spiritual ass. But I see humanity as a doomed failure, and the clock is ticking.
----------------------
BOS, can I say, you are one smart motherfucker. But my Libertarian Socialist resolve gets stronger as I find more grey hairs on my nutsack. Rationality is the kite I fly, my friend.
----------------
Eminem lyric:
" My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head
whether you're a fag or lez
Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's "yes"
Homophobic? Nah, you're just heterophobic
Starin at my jeans, watchin my genitals bulgin (Ooh!)
That's my motherfuckin balls, you'd better let go of em
They belong in my scrotum, you'll never get hold of em
Hey, it's me, Versace
Whoops, somebody shot me!
And I was just checkin the mail
Get it? Checkin the 'male'?"
Ah, I guess he aint that clever after all. Ick.
Lynn:
No need to apologize, no foot in mouth. The sign was there, you saw it, you asked. I think Mom left the sign up because it's a handy landmark on a stretch of road where it's hard to see what's going by from a car. The evergreens my Dad planted as saplings several decades ago pretty much hide the old homestead from Cape Arago Highway these days, at least until you've passed it. And Mom needs the landmark because she runs an informal bed-and-breakfast operation for many friends and interesting strangers.
Frank said:
> David, you used the term, "faceless" to describe a
> bunch of innocent human beings. A bad choice of
> words my friend.
I disagree. It was a relative term. They were faceless to you and me.
> Imagine the people who died in the Holocaust being
> called, "faceless".
I do. And they are . . . to you and me. You weren't acquainted with any of them, were you? I've met survivors aplenty -- in the synogogue where I attend services regularly, alone -- but that's not the same thing. Doesn't lessen the magnitude of the crime, or mean I'm devoid of compassion. But it does seem to me that our response must perforce be a largely intellectual one.
> Not implying that my parents dying wouldn't make me
> sad, but since I have a bad relationship with them it
> makes a bit of sense on my part that I would feel a
> little less sad about their passing.
Well then you pulled a sort of analytical bait-and-switch on the rest of us by using them in an intellectual comparison where the average person would assume what he heard was what you meant.
> And did I mention that my parents are raving bigots?
No, you didn't. Which just goes to show your remarks said more about you and your folks than the subject at hand . . . but none of the rest of us was in a position to realize that at the time you said it.
> See, not everything is as it seems on the surface.
Especially if you hide part of your hand from the rest of the players.
Scott -
If only Charlie Brown would have exploded on Lucy that way at the booth JUST ONCE, he might have been able to kick that fucking football.
I think someone referred to you as Father of the Year on the board... that's part of the afterlife torture bestowed upon failed parents in Hell...or lounging at Dante's Citadel waiting ultimate judgement...or playing endless rounds of Uno in Purgatory.
Let the rage go, my man...you beat them. :)
Your point is well taken, and one I've heard put to me a few times, and I'm hard pressed to remember an instance where the comment was put more cogently.
Obviously, you've received an upbringing by parents who saw fit to act as good parents, giving you what good and hope they had. If you don't mind, I'll admit to a twinge of jealousy now.
Funny, but I looked back at my comment after reading yours, and did a bit of thinking about it. I'd like to think, through distance and circumstance, that I've worn away the rancor that pater and mater left as heritage for me; apparently not as much as I'd like. Well, I've time, and I've already made quite a bit of change which has greatly improved my life. I know I don't display any of this hostility against Mel or the kids; just no thought of it. Perhaps the horror of what came earlier made the concept of violence towards my loved ones entirely repulsive to me.
Well, it'll probably be the process of slow erosion that'll work best, just letting the circumstance I'm within now to push the anger back into the recesses of my psyche until it just dies from of not being recalled as a memory. And the family is a great help in forcing it along.
Not bad, kiddo. I feel a bit like ol' Charlie Brown at the Van Pelt psychiatric booth. I know, five cents please...
BOS
BOS~ I know you've probably heard it a thousand times, and I'm just a nobody on the internet, but you're a good person and I can't help but say something. Call me a busybody, but the sentiment would be most aptly expressed by an invisible hand resting on your shoulder, offering a touch of support. Hating someone that much is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. It only harms you. And you, as the person I have come to know in this brief space of words, you as a father and a husband and a man, you deserve more than that. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
L.
http://www.syzygyjob.org/
Oh puh-lease! Predicting an earthquake in SoCal is like predicting rain in Seattle! some PEOPLE!
Not trumping you Frank, but I honestly was happy at the demise of the two hate filled abusive cocksuckers that sired me. There is little end to the hatred (and it is hatred, trust me) for those two bile filled, pus encrusted walking stacks of human feces who happily used neglect and violence as a means of destroying their children as they destroyed themselves.
I must profess I loved seeing them to their graves, not shedding a tear as the caskets lowered. I just wished I could've seen them to hell, if I could find a scintilla of proof it existed.
Point is, Frank, we made it. And we're a damn sight better than they could imagine themselves being.
Of course, you are a socialist, but that'll change over time...
BOS
Frank,
"I wanted to keep my parent situation private"
Yeah, totally understandable. Just using it as an example. Most topics we debate here don't require background information.
LYNN!
BEHOLD!
My last email is the perfect example of why one should never write while toasty. After my July 4th extravaganza I came in and read Chuck's note. My response, (after too many Pearl Lights and Coronas) was too loud, quite abrasive and stuuuuuuupid.
VOILA! In my case I will try harder to leave the drunken writing to those more like Hemmingway than Gidget.
Cindy
A belated Happy 4th to every and all. I spent yesterday at the local bookstore, picking up a biography of Benjamin Franklin and a collection of Thomas Paine.
I was thinking of seeing the Town Criers at Independence Hall. But these days, even the Town Criers are just another appendage of the Corpoirate Media...
Rob, I wanted to keep my parent situation private, but I had to let my thoughts seem a bit more clear on the whole parents dying thing.
Harlan, when's the next book of short stories? I am hungry man. Growwwl.
Scott,
You're right of course. Teddy Ballgame will be sorely missed. A damn shame though...
-Andrew
Who lifts his ball cap to a hometown hero.
Damn.
Ted Williams is dead. No grief for the man; he'd had a long and successful life, one that'd be the envy of most of us living, but for the place he held as legend, in the face of the selfish arrogant snots who populate the game today.
Thanks, Splendid Splinter.
BOS
Can you not read, dear Basselope? Do you not see the writing on your screen?
What part of DOOMED FLY did you not understand? This is, after all, the Web.
::daintily licking her mandibles::
Arachania Recluse
Ack! Ack! Ack! Thhpppt!!
Anybody got Jeannie Kirkpatrick's number? I still think she's a hottie!
McDONALD'S IS STILL HOLDING OUT AS THE LAST VESTIGE OF THE EVIL EMPIRE!!!!GRIMACE WAS CREATED AS A PURVEYOR OF NAKED GREED AND CORRUPTION THROUGH HIS ARROGANT DISPLAY OF OBESITY, AND FLAUNTING OF HIS LACK OF EDUCATION!!!!
Thppptt! Ack!
Bill the Cat,
Bloom County, USA
THE HOTTENTOTS! THEY RUN AMUCK!
Hullo, taking a break from reading the newspaper (which I'm told I never do) whilst eating Poptarts with butter, to bring a concern to those here. I've been following the horrors that have been foisted on Goldblum here at the site. First, he is banished to erstwhile oblivion, then returned to a ignoble existence in a internet limbo, bereft of any color, or form. He is trapped, and no-one seems to care!
All creatures deserve their dignity, a problem I've experienced many times in my life, and Goldblum is no less worthy than any of the rest of us. Please restore him to an environs where he at least has a point of reference, something to look at for god's sake. Perhaps you could give him a job at the Cafeexpress site for selling Webderland paraphenalia, letting him warmly greet the patrons, maybe assisting them with their shopping concerns. At least see fit to put Goldblum's likeness on a t-shirt and allow him to get by as the logo for the site, doing his small part to aid our patron writer (basselopes are very fond of HE's work: so are small flightless pengiuns with a taste for wearing fruit covered hats) in his fight against those who would steal the author's livelihood.
Please show Goldie you love him. Please, kind people, show him you care.
Rosebud,
Bloom County, USA
Oh, and Lynn -- congratulations and glad the nuptials and honeymoon went well.
Crazy emails -- the National Post had a puff-piece on the dangers of emails, but it was mainly related to accidental cc'ing. I was gladdened by Peter Milligan's (I think) bit in the EW "Hot 100" issue about the greatest impediment to his career advancement being his tendency to send angry emails at 2 a.m. Me, I'm thinking breathalyzer in the monitor to help people possessed of this problem (among whose numbers I number myself)...
Cheers, Jon
OHHHHH CHUCK!
Cool idea!!!!!! Really cool!!
I've been varmint hunting at night ( it sucks) and the reflection of their eyes is very weird. THAT would be awe inspiring on the screen.... green... cats eyes reflect green.. err unless they have blue eyes in which case they reflect red.. which could be really frightening.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!! MORE GIVE ME MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, and slather on the sun screen. When I was a teenager I would fish in the shade while my contemporaries would bake themselves.. then when I was around 22 I started to go for the bronze look too. I hope the damage I incured is minimal. When I moved back to Texas I wasn't tough enough to take the sun, so the Magnolia Blossom look replaced my Island tan.
I'm just SO delighted that you are going to be fine.
:)
Forever your compadre,
Cindy
Rob, Thank you. I know how it is, trying to catch up after a couple of days, skimming through the posts like Frank Bullitt pounding through San Fransisco in his '67 Mustang. You can miss stuff. Thanks.
Cindiana Jones, Thank you as well, and I will be careful but not fearful when exposing myself to the sun.
Further comments on Ingena: I think showing little glimpses if Ingena, eyes, mouth, etc. would be effective for the first scene. Also, I think it would be great if you showed light reflecting out of her eyes at night like a cat. She's got cat eyes, so that would make sense. And it would be creepy.
Chuck
Jon~
Crazy drunken emails can be inspired moments sometimes. My personal favorite is writing with too little sleep.
L.
Zoe~ Email en route.
Lynn- Ooooh, really? At least a visit, yes yes yes! E-mail me? I've lost yours, as my school e-mail's being weird. Above addy is best to reach me at, and we'll make plans!
--Zoë Rose
Ah, there's nothing like taking in hay when the humidex puts the temperature at about 40C. I recommend this activity as a quick weight-loss measure.
Cindy: Glad you liked the comments. I'll get some more done in the next couple of weeks as I try to catch up on various stuff.
Writing stuff: At least for the last four weeks, I've discovered that setting a 2500 word a day minimum does wonders for my writing, much more so than previous attempts at time-based schedules have. I don't know that I can keep it up, but the 32,000 words on this particular work is the most I've ever managed on any one thing by about 14,000 words. The 2500 words was basically arbitrary. Editing, outlining, and brainstorming go on top of that, regardless of how much time the 2500 words takes (or if I go over, as I have on several occasions).
How do people write drunk, though? That's something I've never been able to pull off, except for emergency essays and crazy drunken emails.
Cheers,
Jon
In the category of interesting things you find when you're packing to move (besides where the cats have been hiding their toys), I present some lost digital photos from a trip my wife and I took to Britain and Ireland in 2000:
http://homepage.mac.com/josephfinn/PhotoAlbum5.html
Regards,
Joseph
Jon!
I just found the comments on INGENA! THANK YOU! You're amazing! The things you said, are right on the mark.
I am rethinking the opening scene-- thinking maybe I show Ingena too quickly. How would it work if I postponed the first glimpse of her? I isn't really too suspenseful to see her right off the bat, is it? I wonder what you (or anybody else here )thinks about this potential change.
My next re-write is going to be kick ass. You have no idea how much your time means to me and your comments are REMARKABLE. Now I must read John Irving's A Widow for One Year, as per your suggestion.
OH YOU MUST TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE CORN FIELD AND THE BACK YARDS SPRINT!
:)
Cindy
XANADU WHERE ARE YOU???????
CHUCK!!!!!!!!!
Was a relief!!!!! I am happy for me. I enjoy your posts too much for you to EVER be sick.
LYNN,
Aw Lynn, you look so happy and so.... glowing! Your little husband is adorable too. He looks like fun which is an integral ingredient in a happy marriage. In the event that every modern day form of entertainment is knocked out, you need someone who can make you laugh. From the pictures it looks like you have that angle covered.
I especially enjoyed the picture of him in his "Jaws of Death" pose. The pushme pullyou comment was a beverage snorter. Good catch Lynn! Good catch BILL!
You're lovely and happy and I wish you both a sound alliance.
yer pal in Texas,
Cindy
Lynn:
Your saurians? My god, they did survive extinction by evolving into the stuff of our technological age. I'd always theorized the possibility; to think Crichton had us all believing that reptilian/amphibian integration of DNA was all that was required.
I guess I'm one of those drawn to such displays of tourist tackiness; exhibits such as your dinosaurs, or our big metal goose. Perhaps it's the attempt itself by what is often a small town to give them some recognition beyond the city limits. I've seen all different types of animals, people, and other forms of creature, including a huge Pysynka, outside Vegreville, Alberta. Hell, I've seen the World's Largest Hockey Stick and Puck, in Duncan, BC. I've led such a fulfilling life...
My loinfruit enjoyed the snow leopard snaps, the youngest asking Mel if she could buy one at the shelter. Hard to explain the concept of animal savagery as a component of a creature's physical maturity to her, until I considered exposing her to any impartial documentary about the politics of the Middle East. Thought better of it, however: nobody's ready for that level of confusion.
With that, the return to the process of exchanging physical and mental labour for large amounts of lucre. Must continue to oil the machine of economy, ne c'est pas?
Your friendly neighborhood proletariat BOS
Neither and nor... nope, not no double negative. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
"Nor" is the "negative or"--that is, "or" used in a context involving negation of a proposition. It brings back many memories of circuit design in the 70s, including NAND gates, etc. Grammatically, though, it is a reminder that the alternatives being discussed are negated, as is "neither." Beyond that, I'll have to ask one of you native speakers to explain, as I had to learn this from a grammar text...
Venkman,
If LG is the spitting image of Courtney Cox (debuting in Brucie's video), I want to ask her: 'You busy Friday night?'.
Even bigger grin.
FAQ
Lonegungirl -
Or, like that video with Bruce Springsteen when he picks the cute, doe-eyed fan out of the audience to dance with him on stage to the last few bars of "Dancing in the Dark"?
(BIG grin)
HE:
Wow. Thank you for such a generous offer--I don't want to take advantage of you or force you to be unfair to the other Weberlanders who will want to come see you too, but I really can't tell you how much such a nice thought means to me. Just the notion that I could actually say that I'm a friend of The Ellisons and not be totally creepy and self-deluded is wonderful.
The Lonegungirl Parents are still waffling over having their Vegas 50th anniversary party on Saturday or Sunday, but if humanly possible, I'll drop by for the show. I'll ask about the rate for the individual talk, but if not, I'll see if there are some other panels of interest. The trouble is that, it's been so long since I've found a new current fic writer, I don't think I really know any of the other speakers.
Again, thank you bundles for the offer. You know how in Babylon 5, Ivanova is holding a service for her father, and tells a story about how she meets her favorite writer? She asks him this carefully pondered question and he tells her it's stupid, crushing her. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of that.
In gratitude,
lg.
Chuck,
I scroll through posts briefly at different points of the day and often don't see SOME till much later.
Delayed but sincere congratulations for your medical news. I'm really happy about the results. You got the Good Witch of the North on your side.
Sorry it took so long for me to get to the matter. Stay fit.
[blatant plug]
Chuck~ I'm getting good feedback on the GOLF SHIRTS from http://www.cafepress.com/webderland. I understand they're TRES BITCHIN'. And doesn't it make you feel good to know that FIVE DOLLARS of your purchase is going to KICK?
[/blatant plug]
Seriously, I'm really glad you like the shirt and that you're enjoying it in good health.
FAQ~ You fuck with the young of herbivores that big, they still tend to get pissy. Nature of the beast. And if you get away, you smell like lizard spit for DAYS. That stuff just won't come off fer nothin'.
L.
Zoedotdot~ You need a place to crash? I got a comfy futon and an overly affectionate cat you can borrow. We should get together and do food anyway, yes?
L.
Lynn and BOS,
Just wanted to thank you both for the kind thoughts concerning my surgery. I didn't want to overpost on the Cafe, so I thought I'd thank you here. I'm just thanking right and left. Feels kinda good. Tell Mel Thanks for me, Scott. Enjoy your vacation. Happy Canada Day. (a bit late)
And, Lynn, I LOVE my smokin' E golf shirt. Tres chic. Great for the hothothot weather here in Colo. as well. Good Stuff. And five buck goes to KICK 'em in the 'nads. Brava. Loved the honeymoon photos.
Chuck
Little Washu::::
That was Jeff Goldblum. Not a real fly, he just played one in the movies. If you want to see my current circumstance, just click on the words "like a doomed fly". There I am, floating in whiteness. Man, I could go for some rotting garbage right now.
Peter - Will do, will do. If nothing else I'll stop by a Denny's or something. Plans are firming up for my first official visit to LA! Woo!
--Dotty,
--Zoë Rose
ps- Have a safe and happy Fourth, all!
BOS~ Actually, they were chicken wire and concrete dinosaurs with a high gloss finish. Apparently, they've been raking in the dough there for over fifty years. It's true. Dinosaurs sell. And it was one of the childhood memories I got to share with Bill. Apparently, the dinosaurs were much bigger when he was seven. Funny how that works.
L.
Ahhhhh, nothing like looking at honeymoon pics to put one to sleep...
Just kidding, Lynn; looks like beautiful country, a lot like Banff and Jasper National Parks up here. No sequoias, but lots of mountain goats and cougars. My daughters will love seeing the cats and goats.
Still, you're impressed by plastic dinosaurs? You would cower in terror before the great metal Canada goose up in Wawa, Onatrio!!!!
Hmmm...wonder if the goose leaves liquid solder droppings?
BOS
Damn, Ray Brown died.
Still, he was good enough to have played with Bird, Dizzy, and Oscar Peterson, and managed Quincy Jones. had some of the finest bass chops I'd heard, too.
Fare you Well, Superbass
Frank,
"but since I have a bad relationship with them it makes a bit of sense on my part that I would feel a little less sad about their passing."
This is an example of giving your readers some kind reference to understand the underpinnings of your argument. It works so much better: when you try to make a point support it with something. In other cases, consider if a line you're about to put through could be taken the wrong way. It's the latter that's caused problems more often. Just read it like you're the guy on the other end before posting. Will your intentions be missed?
For the record, you have my sympathies for the strained relationship you experienced with your parents. I was left with bitterness not unlike yours even though my situation was of a totally different nature.
...you ever read Harlan's great short story, THE DISCARDED? (Which is kind of reminding me of LAX right now! Maybe Zoe and I can just go to a bar together and do a Ray Milland bit. JUST joking. JUST joking).
Well, just popped in for a bit, and the site, the world, the universe is still here. Damn, it didn't work...
Joe E. Ellison: Try Joe E. Brown. Hardly obscure.
Chris: Yes, and loved it. One of those wonderful creations born from the Prague Spring. I loved Neckar as Milo. If you haven't, see "The Shop On Main Street", with Jozef Kroner as Tomo Brkto, a harried, nagged carpenter who believes that getting a job as an Aryan Controller over an elderly jewish woman's button shop will give him release from his fetid life. The last five minutes of the film are stunning.
With that, a meal and time with family. See yas when next I'm through. I'm trying to finish maintenance and repair quickly, then vacation.
BOS
Harlan: My favorite Joe E. Brown line is from "Some Like it Hot," near the end in a scene with Jack Lemmon.
Today, some psychotic middle-aged lady in clothes more appropriate to a circus clown balled up half a roll of toilet paper and tossed it in the only working bathroom in the place. She was angry about something before she came out and emerged from the bathroom shouting "OY VEY OY VEY MAMA MIA!!!" So joyful she was in telling me that there was a half inch of water on the floor.
Meanwhile, a woman with a thick accent was arguing loudly about the price of something and attracting my attention to resolve an obviously life-threatening case of $2 price discrepancy.
About ten kids without supervision were in our office supplies section at the same time. They filed out during this whole mess. The common thread was the look and the accent.
Yep, tonight we were cased by gypsies looking to use their kids to swipe office supplies. There would have been more except the kids stayed in a section close to the rest room and I cast one of the little buggers a glance that spooked him. I'm not sure what was the best part - the missing office supplies, the flooded toilet or the fact that I gave a job at a discount to a thief.
Making the best of my edjumakation,
Venk
Hi, everybody. Just letting you know I AM still here, just sitting back and admiring the view for a while. Silence really is golden sometimes.
A new sighting of HE at Westercon, and I'm trapped in Bermuda. When will I ever be able to meet Harlan in the flesh?
I guess I'll have to do with his appearence on the DUNE:SPECIAL EDITION DVD for the time being.
GOLDBLUM THE FLY: I thought Geena blew your head off, man. What happened?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Zoë:
If you do make it down to LA this weekend, be sure to learn from my mistake: eat before you meet.
I was hoping that piece I wrote about my own experience at BayCon would be online by now, but the folks who picked it are still seriously backlogged.
---Peter
Lynn,
Congratulations on the wedding. Loved the animal photos. Lucky for you your bethroed was spat out by reptilian herbivore.
FAQ
NEITHER and NOR. Hm. Not a double negative? Well. No wonder. Guess I'd better shut my multi-part mouth or I'll make things worse. Could be worse. I haven't smacked into any windshields yet. What the hell,(pardon the expression) this could be fun.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
Chris,
If we're lucky, there's always Comic-Con in August (if you don't mind driving down to San Diego).
-Andrew
Lynn, still love ya girl.
Shoot, couldn't you guys have waited about 6 weeks for me to move out to the area so I could go to the convention. Talk about inconsiderate! I'll just have to hope there'll be a trademark Ellison appearance or two in the area sometime after September this year.
CLOSELY WATCHED TRAINS:
A question for the board. Has anyone else seen this 1966 Czech film, directed by Jiri Menzel? I thought it was wonderful, alternately hilarious and sad. I've talked to a few people who think the main character is boring and passive. He's certainly passive but in the same way that Harry Caul (Gene Hackman) in _The Conversation_ is and I think he's fascinating. The film lacks the dramatic "moments" that some viewers need to identify with a character but this movie worked for me on every level.
David, you used the term, "faceless" to describe a bunch of innocent human beings. A bad choice of words my friend. Imagine the people who died in the Holocaust being called, "faceless". Not implying superior compassion, just want to keep you honest.
And now there is this report about the bombing of the wedding party in Afghanistan. Thirty people dead, and finally a possible government investigation. Hopefully this will make the bombing campaign at least more, "accurate". Grimace.
--------------------
Not implying that my parents dying wouldn't make me sad, but since I have a bad relationship with them it makes a bit of sense on my part that I would feel a little less sad about their passing.
And did I mention that my parents are raving bigots?
See, not everything is as it seems on the surface.
-------------
Actually, I like LA, love San Diego and northern Cali, but noone can say that Seattle isn't the bomb. He he.
------------------
Oh, and for any curious - daily rate at Westercon is $35.
--DotDot
Harlan - No problem, that's why I asked. *grin* I figured that might be the case. Well heck, I just got paid for the first time by the military, and I feel rich (!!!), so if driving plans work out I might just be able to make it - depending on that one-day cost, acourse.
Again - notaproblem. No umbrage taken or any such thing.
--Waiting for the moving company to find California and deliver my stuff,
--Pondering, "Buy a bed, drive to LA? Buy a bed, drive to LA?"
--Zoë Rose
ZOE:
Er, uh, oh boy...
I should have known I was opening a Pandora's Box. Shoulda known!
In truth, Zoe, there IS a one-day admission ticket; but I suppose if you went to Registration and told them you were only there for the Ellison session at 4:00, they might well give you a drastically cut-rate admission for that event only. I don't really know.
I wish I could be flambuoyant and extend the invite to everyone, but it ain't my convention. It is being put on by people who have laid out vast sums for the hotel, et al, and I really cannot be so cavalier as to invite people to crash the party.
I hope you understand.
I probably shouldn't have extended that largesse to Lonegungirl, because of this subsequent unfairness to you (and others who may have had the same idea); but I did, and I'll stick by it.
As I said, I hope you understand.
But if you desire to be there, try my suggestion above.
(When will I learn, if ever, to zip my flap!!??!!)
Joe E. Ellison (there's an obscure reference for you)
Just curious - does that invitation extend to any of us who might be pondering sneaking to LA this weekend, Harlan?
-Zoë Rose
LONEGUNGIRL:
Go to the Radisson. Circa 4:00 PM on Saturday. Wander to Ballroom E-F. Walk in. Sit down. If anyone at the door asks you for your badge or tries to stop you, tell him, "I'm a family friend of Susan and Harlan, and they invited me to come hear Harlan speak." Anyone gives you any further trouble, hang around the door to the ballroom till we get there, and we'll usher you through. If we're already there, just tell the security/entrance paladin to wave to us, and we'll get you in.
As our personal friend, and as you are only there for us, and not the convention, we can employ this dispensation. It need not cost you $75 for this one tiny visit.
Yr. pal, Harlan
DEAR MR. GOLDBLUM-ON-THE-FLY:
It's "neither hot NOR cold" ... not "neither hot OR cold" ... and perhaps it's recidivist grammar that has consigned you to icon limbo.
Flittingly, Ellison
LYNN: You guys look so terrifically happy! Congratulations!
And yeah, the elk butt is strangely compelling...a little salt, a little garlic...
Lynn -
WOW. What a honeymoon! You guys look great! The mountains! The rivers! The animals! Even the elk butt looks great! Er...wait, I didn't say that.
About Westercon...
I visited the webpage, and noted that admission is $75 at the door--does anyone know if that's for the entire weekend, or just the one day? If it is for the weekend, is there a rate for just one day?
Always looking for another chance to bask in the phenom that is HE...
Help me. I'm caught in some strange limbo-like dimension. I'm floating in a sea of infinite white, seeing nothing, touching nothing. No sound. Neither hot or cold. I don't know what I did to deserve this. I don't know how I got here. It's just so empty. Empty. No other flies, no disgusting, rotting things to eat. Yet I don't feel hungry.
What IS this place?
Help me.
Please help me.
Heeellllp Meeeeeee!
Heeeeeellllllp Meeeeeeee!
Jimi,
Ann Coulter looks like an anorexic barbie doll.
(I wish I could take credit for that, but a friend of mine came up with that one.)
By the way, did you all hear how Vampire Barbie called Katie Couric the 'Eva Braun of morning television"? Good lord. Talk about rhetorical overkill. All because Couric (spelling?) asked her some hard questions. Must have hurt her poor widdle fwagile feewings. Man. Talk back to these people and they squeal like stuck pigs.
Chuck
Virtual photo album, now open at:
http://www.digitalcarrion.com/hatfield_honeymoon.html
Worth it just to read about how Santa got shot.
L.
Lynn,
Much as I appreciate the offer, my clock already looks so cool on my wall that it's staying there. Anyway, imagine it 50 years down the road on Virtual eBay:
ORIGINAL (TYPO) EDITION OF HARLAN ELLISON TICKTOCKMAN CLOCK! MINT!
*grin*
Regards,
Joseph
Harlan~ Sweetie, if I ain't "A" material, I don't know what is. The possibility has been discussed, and now, confirmed. Do you need more cards or do you still have some left over from the last batch I printed? I'm not back in the office till Friday, so call me at home after 4pm if you have questions or wish to make dinner plans. Or I'm up for awhile yet here.
Your devoted saloon girl,
L.
LYNN: I hear that a lot, actually. (Didja get my e-mail, huh?
Didjadidjadidjadidja?)
Harlan recorded "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"????
Did I ever mention Ann Coulter has a really long neck?
LYNN:
Bring the unsuspecting New Husband to the Westercon on Saturday so I can bust his chops and tell him infamous tales of your previous career as a B-girl in Klondike saloons.
Heh.
Yr. heh pal heh, Hehhehheharlan.
You are a shit, but you get off this time because I'd already noticed it. Unfortunately, the file isn't on my home machine, so as soon as I get to work on Friday, I'll fix it. And Joseph, if you want, send me the clock and I'll have a proper one sent to you.
Jim, you're still a shit. But you're my kind of shit, so we're cool.
L.
I feel like a real shit for pointing this out. . .
The Smoking E Clock looks awesome, really it does.
But shouldn't it read "mrmee," instead of "mree"?
{Insert big stupid grin here}
L.
Lynn,
Just received my clock today. Freaking awesome!
Regards,
Joseph
CLICK ME. http://www.cafepress.com/webderland (Or Cut & Paste, whichever.)
Have you seen this stuff? I mean, have you popped over to the Webderland store and taken a gander at the really nifty neato bitchin' cool stuff we have?!
We gots stainless steel travel mugs. We gots frosty cool rootbeer float mugs. For yer ride, we gots LICENSE PLATES FRAMES. For yer crib, we gots the Smoking E WALL CLOCK. We gots cool threads and the best part is, for every item you buy, $5 will go to the KICK Internet Piracy Fund.
Have you gotten your t-shirt yet, Belinda? Have you ever worked on a case that had a t-shirt or mug? I don't even think Johnny Cochran got a t-shirt or a mug from OJ. Hell, if I'd have coined the phrase, "If it don't fit, you must acquit!", I'd have had it put on a t-shirt or a mug.
Five dollars American, folks. And you get really high quality Webderland schwag in the process. Gods I love the Internet.
L.
Just found this post @ one of my Yahoo groups & thought I'd pass it on for those that have a decent Internet connection/interest.
I personally have to work on the 4th but will try & watch the "Twilight Zone" marathon on TV.
It's almost the 4th of July, and here in America, it is way hot!
So if you enjoy sci-fi old-time radio, or just sci-fi in general, tune in
tonight starting at 9 pm eastern, 6 pm pacific, that's 01 gmt for the 4th
of July Sci-fi marathon!
This is a marathon in the truest sense of the word, too. We kick it off
with all 50 shows from the Demension x series, which premiered on radio
back in 1950.
Stories about the future are the usual topic,
and it's interesting to hear how writers of that time thought we'd be
living now.
In some cases, they were right, and in others, they were wrong, but they're
still very engaging stories and it's definitely a good listen.
The whole series takes about 23 and a half hours to listen from start to
finish. Since i can't expect anyone to listen for that long without
stopping, i am going to play this series twice in a row.
So if you missed it the first time around, you can catch it again on the
second run. But that's not all!!
After the demension x series, we begin playing the series that followed it
up a few years later which continued the tradition of great sci-fi radio of
the 50s. Of course, I'm refering to X Minus One!
There were 125 shows in this series, and right now, i only have the first
70 or so, but the rest should be on the way soon. If all goes well i
should get the rest while these first ones are playing, so eventually,
you'll be able to hear the whole series.
There will only be a few times when this broadcast will have to take a
break. Because this is being broadcast live and direct from my computer
here, i am going to have to reboot occasionally, which of course will drop
the stream. That shouldn't take long though, so if you keep trying to
reconnect, it should work. The longer outage will happen while I am doing
my show over on ACB Radio Interactive from 3 to 5 gmt on Friday, which is
thursday evening from 11 pm to 1 am eastern time. I will have to stop the
sci-fi broadcast so that i can go on the air on Interactive, but I'll start
the stream immediately following the show so everyone can continue
listening right where you left off.
So if you try listening and the stream is not available,please remember
that i am doing my interactive show at that time so instead, the best
coarse of action would be to tune into that. .
So, of course, you're going to need info to listen, aren't you! I almost
forgot, lol!
Here's all the info you'll need to listen to this broadcast.
At 9 pm eastern, 6 pm pacific, or 1 gmt, head on over to,
http://www.toonhead-online.com/links1.html
Gunther,
Mrmee mrmee mrmee. When I said my german was rusty, I should have looked closer. It's rusted clear through. There's daylight shining through the holes. Thanks for the correction. I'll be more careful next time.
GregX,
Ann Coulter is the latest member of the Chattering Class who published some skreed and is now surfing on her noteriety. Yawn. Yet another spewer of verbal diahrea making the circuit. The only real danger Dubya was in was the fact that his unit (I believe) flew Starfighters, which could be rather evil-tempered airplanes if the pilot was not sufficiently trained. They didn't get shot at. Certainly didn't get the sight or smell of combat, which according to actual veterans of any war, has a distinctive and unpleasant smell.
By the way, I got my golf shirt from cafepress. All I can say is, SSSMMMMOKIN'! Very nice. I can hardly wait for someone to ask what the smoking E is for. Lynn produces a nice product.
Lookin' sharp,
Chuck
Make sure you have Flash installed, and browse over to http://hellsgate.online.ee/~mait/fahrschule.swf, so you can see a wonderfully funny piece of work by the great Bruno Bozzetto.
Trust me. Really. Would I lie?
Dubya's [sarcasm] outstanding military record [/sarcasm] compares favorably with those of Danny Boy (National Guard unit never mobilized), Preacher Pat (pulled to a rear area during the Korean fracas by his father the senator), Rush Limberger (umm, didn't serve at all), Jerry Fatlip (ditto, if my data is correct), and Darling Ann (too preppy to make it through Basic).
With a military like these, who needs enemies?
Hey, now, be gentle with John Carmichael. He has NO IDEA what he's getting himself into at Westercon... as he is a mundane. A classy mundane, but still a mundane. Besides, I need him to be in good enough condition to finish up his part of the brief...
For anyone who is interested, I have posted copies of two opinions in the case on my website. More will go up as I get the chance. Replace the spaces in the following address with slashes:
http: www.authorslawyer.com c-ellison.shtml
Y'all might particularly enjoy the denial of AOL's requests for attorney's fees. I know that Harlan and I did. (And you did too, Belinda, secretly. I know you did.)
Christ, people, shoot me an e-mail next time the board's down this long. I fixed the problem with the board posting last night but forgot I'd changed the code to slap the posting page with an error as a prophylactic so we wouldn't lose our backup.
We're back and running. The Frankotron 2000 has been rebooted and has a new Turing program loaded, enjoy!
I'm sure not too many folks here listen to Jim Bohannon (radio) but I just heard Ann Coulter state that more people died in Duya's Air Force Reserve training group than in all of the press photographers (Al Gore included) in Viet Nam. Excuse me but weren't hundreds of press photographers shot + killed in Viet Nam?? Just how bad of a pilot was Dubya?? Did we have a special kamakaze group that no one ever heard of?? When will this broad go away??
David~ My condolences on the loss of your father. (Trust me to put my foot in it.) I saw the sign and y'know, Loftus just isn't that common a name. So I thought of you, recalling your words about Sawdust Days. I got to see the Sawdust theatre, as well as the house where my husband grew up, just down the street. The house that will henceforth be referred to as The Place Where My Mr. Hatfield Shot Santa Claus. Talk about Memory Lane. I also got to see the elk camp (source of many, many stories) and the place where Bill's mom's ashes are scattered (just off the Rogue River trail, above Payton Rapids). Funny thing that. She's the only Hatfield we can locate with any certainty.
I do have an op-ed brewing about Oregon's attitude towards tourists. To talk Texan for a moment, y'all need an attitude adjustment when it comes ta furriners (translation: anyone not from Oregon). With an economy struggling in the face of declining lumber & commercial fishing industry, and the tourism dollar the only sure thing, you'd think people would be a little more sociable. Even the industry folk (people at hotels, restaurants, gift shops, tour boat rides) tended to act like we were an inconvenience. Even after we stated that Bill was taking me back to the place where he grew up. You'd think he'd deserted his country, not just moved to where there were jobs. ::sigh::
Frank being dense again? Good to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
L.
I'm with John Walsh. The death penalty IS the perfect deterrence. It is the only sure cure for recividism.
However, I agree with the Judge that ruled that the death penalty should be only given by a jury and not not a Judge. Twelve peers should decide the fate of the convicted to insure that there is enough evidence for a consensus. Such a weighty matter should never be determined by a single soul.
I also believe that the jury should be privy to ALL of the evidence. No Judge should decide what they see. If they are worthy of being seated on a jury we should trust that they will be savvy enough to pick through the evidence presented and sift the wheat from the chaff. As for prejudicial evidence, it should all be laid out for the jury... instruct them but give them ALL of the evidence in a case.
Cindy
Frank,
Be guided by the last posts to you from Jim and David; they're flawless, sound and dead on. Everyone supports your privilege to express your world views here; but it isn’t arguments you pose nor even opinions so much as unchecked rhetoric, OFTEN speckled with non sequitors, grunting with a presumption you are unique in your insight and simplistic in your claims. Worst of all you tend to miss the basic point others try to make.
Here! SIT your ass down fer a minute and lemme give you a suggestion (this therapy session is free, by the way, so treasure it!): when you bang out your statements on the keyboard, before sending it through, ask yourself, "is the point I’m getting at clear to the reader? Is there a more cogent way of putting it?", PARTICULARLY if you want others to take the issue seriously and share your pov. I don’t think you consider how things come across at the other end; if you did you wouldn’t have gotten your ass tarred and feathered (as you know, I save that for truly evil people myself, not those merely being dense) by Lynn way back. If you DON’T want to be taken seriously then I have to question the sincerity in your claims. And what reads like empty posturing doesn’t do much justice to the causes you profess to believe in, does it?
Whether you raise a point others agree with or disagree, simply make it focused and plausible (the parents thing was bullshit, unless there’s an emotional chasm between y’all, too easy for anyone to claim) and you won’t be greeted by blazing torches every time you jump in here.
A "spontaneous" Al Gore? I can sooner imagine him taking over vocal duties for George Clinton in Parliament/Funkadelic.
(intone in the most uptight, whitest manner possible)
"We. WANT. The. Funk.
Give. UP. The. Funk..."
Susan,
My apology for not updating you. Recieved your message and will be forwarding change to you.
Tammy
The talk about Southern California reminds me of my occasional queries about what people think of Mike Davis's books on LA.
On another front, has anyone caught the latest headline from the upcoming election campaign? "Gore Vows a More Spontaneous Campaign." That's right. Al Gore has announced that, during his upcoming, nearly-two-years-hence political campaign, he will be "more spontaneous." He's letting us know well in advance that he will be more spontaneous, perhaps because he wouldn't want us to be _surprised_ when he lets that spontaneity spring out. Imagine Al Gore saying "I will be more spontaneous."
Just think! At long last, the real Al Gore will emerge, no longer constrained by polls and image-makers! Those years of following the polls, of cautiously gauging the political winds, and weighing the conscience against the demands of the moneyman, are _over_. Now, we'll get to see the rip-roaring, sharp-on-the-draw, take-no-prisoners style of the REAL Al Gore. Imagine Dorothy Parker on the campaign stump, George Carlin on _Meet the Press_, and Voltaire Himself behind a podium during the Presidential debates, and that won't equal one _tenth_ of the spontaneity of an unleashed Al Gore! More fun than a rodeo on crack! We're in for a _really spontaneous election_, people!
Whew.
Frank,
Have you ever actually been to Southern California? I'll admit that many coastal, urban areas have little in the way of tall vegetation. However, come inland a bit and you'll find a wide variety of native (and not so native) flora. Strangley enough, San Diego has one of the largest populations of eucalyptus this side of Australia.
-Andrew
Whose backyard is a bit of forest in its own right. Oh, look, a woodpecker...
Oh, and thank you, Cindy.
Frank:
John Entwhistle was a musician. Rush Limbaugh is a talk show host. Musicians make things. Talk show hosts pass the time in a more or less entertaining manner. There is a world of difference between the two. It is as if you had said, it is all the same to me whether Mozart or the Duc de Whosis of Louis XVI's court passed away.
As for equating the loss of a parent with the faceless thousands in Afghanistan, that's just arrogant intellectual pig ignorance. You've obviously never lost a parent. But it displays ignorance about the faceless dying, as well. You've been letting your heart bleed for the Afghanis mainly because the president and the press have focused the world's attention on them.
But thousands of people die elsewhere around the world every day, and you honestly don't have the energy or resources to inform yourself about them, let alone care about them. I'm plowing my way through John Ralston Saul's fiercely intellectual _Voltaire's Bastards: the Dictatorship of Reason in the West_ (it's my second go at it, and I'm going to finish it this time!), and he talks about how the "half century of peace" since WW2 has actually been a nuclear peace with a new form of conventional war, wherein the big powers test out their latest weapons in small local conflicts, and UN peacekeeping forces do not solve conflicts but keep them frozen in place as "unending half conflicts."
In 1972 there were a handful of conflicts around the globe. By 1980 there were about 30, by the 1990s roughly 40. 1,000 soldiers are killed every day somewhere on the planet, and 5,000 civilians. Cambodia and Ethipia caught our attention briefly, but as geographical and historic islands; no mention was made of all the neighboring nations who were also caught up in war and starvation.
The media focus on only two or three wars out of 40 because they're accessible, or because the issues are simple, or because their "meaning" has already been sussed out for the public in black-and-white US political terms so it's okay to air footage of the bombings and tank movements.
But don't try to convince me you're any more on top of the world geopolitical situation, or any more objective, or any more compassionate than the rest of us, buddy. The holier-than-thou act gets real old.
BOS,
I understand your sympathy for the death sentence but I would never support the implementation of such a policy for the reasons you mentioned.
I think all of the methods involved are not 'humane' and I doubt to see a justice system that is 100% infalliable. If the UK still had the death penalty, the Birmingham Six and the Bridgewater four would have been executed as soon as sentence is passed. Also, a home secretary could bow to public pressure for executions for criminal suspects that would have little to do with 'justice' and more to do with lengthing their political career.
Years ago (I think I must have been 10-11), I did witness a public execution. I didn't see any justice that day, just state sanctioned murder.
LASIK - Interesting to catch up on posts, particulary this topic. I've been mulling about it but the surgical eyes website scared the shit out of me. I've just moved to contact lenses at the moment (my glasses were broken while filming a protest and the price quoted to replace the lenses was extortionate) but I'm seriously wondering whether to go ahead with exploring the laser option.
FAQ
RICH: THANK YOU for the information. I have still have a lot of research to do, but your post is a big help. I'm leaning towards getting the procedure, though much depends on the exact makeup of my eyes, obviously. In any case, I'm in no hurry to do this, so there's plenty of time to get all the facts. I'll let you all know my decision, when I eventually make it. Again, Rich and John G, thank you.
Okay, I'll ask it (I think I lost my tact in a dingy bar in Ybor City last weekend, anyway): Whatever happened to Bermanator? Yeah, she was a little high-strung, and she pissed Rick off but good, but I kinda sorta miss her. . .
re: Death Penalty
I'd have to say that my opinion differs slightly from BOS's only in that I disagree with the death penalty in principle, too. To me it seems like the theory is flawed. Think of a mother and child scenario - Child hits another kid and so Mom beats up Child, saying, "No, Child! Hitting people is /wrong/!"
I dunno. Something don't seem quite right there with me. Same thing with the death penalty. That and the fact that, as BOS pointed out, it's unevenly applied.
My two cents,
Zoë Rose
RICK: Can you clip the first and last "that"s from the final paragraph of my post? (I hit "send" instead of "preview.") Thanks.
FRANK: Yes, you should feel free to give your opinion, no matter how much it deviates from the norm. If you want to say that the death of a loved one could never emotionally compare to the thousands of casualties incurred in a foreign war, then more power to you. I have no doubt that you honestly believe that.
But I also doubt that you have experienced much in the way of personal loss in your life, thus far. Hey, I don't know you, you don't me, right? I could be wrong, and you may be intimate with death in ways I can't even imagine. But even if that's true, it still wouldn't make your statement any less curious. Yes, in strict numerical terms, a single life is insignificant. Thousands of them are snuffed out every day, maybe even MILLIONS, so why shed a tear over a single one? Save your weeping for the masses whose lives have been nothing more than a cyclotron of horrors from cradle to grave, right?
What a elegantly logical perspective. How balanced, how reasonable, how percipient in its awareness of the grim reality of existence.
And how utterly alien to any conception of personal humanity that I have ever possessed, or WILL ever possess.
Human feelings are messy, contradictory little entities that give no creedence to logic, politics, or ANY notion of a balanced wordview. They are atavistic, amoral, and completely subjective--and for all that, I'm glad beyond the telling. Because only by acknowledging the tragedy, the senseless loss, and the sadness in each INDIVIDUAL death that has touched us, can we ever truly be moved to sympathy with the losses among humanity as a WHOLE.
Frank, we can't live our lives according to the neat columns of some political white paper. Yes, there should be an attempt at emotional balance, and the maudlin must always be avoided. Hey, if John Entwistle's passing didn't move you, that's your prerogative; there are innumerable celebrity deaths that didn't affect me one iota.
But to say that with utter assurance that "if my Mother or Father were to die, I would be sad, but no more sad then I am about the dead in Afghanistan". . . I'm sorry, but that's either empty rhetoric, or it speaks of an emotional numbness that I hope I NEVER experience.
Frank, the "Turing test" is a hypothetical standard by which a machine can be judged as "intelligent" or not.
The general idea is this. A human being sits at a computer, where text that appears to come from another human someplace else appears on the screen. The human being interacts with this text-- asking question, engaging in converstaion, more or less like a chat room-- until he is asked to decide. Is the "person" on the other end a real human being, or a computer that's been programmed to behave as a human being would?
Now, this is a pretty simple test, and not surprisingly, the evaluation is very subjective. Someone who has a fine understanding of the limits of machine intelligence could probably suss out the computer pretty quickly. For example, he could use words in unconventional contexts that a machine wouldn't recognize or figure out ("I churched my paycheck and swam over to the old watering hole").
But in a number of cases, there have been programs that "pass" this test. Most notably was Joseph Weizenbaum's program "Eliza," which replied with a series of pre-programmed questions along the lines of a psychiatric analyst. These were questions like "How does that make you feel?" and "Tell me more" and "Can you think of any other time when this happened?" Or, it might drop in occasional nouns used previously by the user, i.e., "Tell me more about [your car]." What was very striking about such programs is that people would sit and spill their problems to this "sympathetic person."
Frank,
So long as the word "prick" is interpolated I find that pridefully acceptable.
Incidentally, LA is surrounded by forestry. Once again you overshoot the facts and the logic.
Frank,
A Turing Test is one method for determining how "lifelike" an artifical intelligence would be. You should be able to place a human in another room, communicating with the computer by text only, and not be able to distinguish in any way whether the human is communicating with a computer or another human. Devised by Alan Turing, cryptographer and one of the brilliant breakers of the German Enigma code in World War II. Here's a good explanation of the Turing Test with bios and whatnot for Mr. Turing:
http://www.turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/test.html
Regards,
Joseph
Turing test??
Well, that's a bit spurious.
The last execution in Canada occurred on Dec. 11, 1962, of Ronald Turpin and Arthur Lucas, convicted of killing police officers. Parliment abolished hanging, the only accepted form of execution in 1976, and has since refused reinsatement of the death penalty on one other occasion, the date of which escapes me.
I support the death penalty in principle, but not in its execution (sorry for the pun) within the US. Let me explain my basic premise: If you or I, through conscious act (killing a person or hiring someone to do it, or even accidentally cause the end of a life during performance of another criminal act) or by omission of responsibility (drunk drivers, corporate heads who knowingly dump hazardous materials into communities water supplies, pushers selling drugs they know are fatal to users etc.) bring an end to another life proven by evidence before the court and a jury of your peers, you or I WILL die at the hands of the agents of the state in a timely fashion.
Joseph, a penalty to arrest an undesired behaviour doesn't have potency as a deterrent (and that is the main argument used by proponents of the death penalty) unless those who consider an act prior to commission are aware of the certainty of the penalty which comes as a consequence. Punishment doesn't work if it's not guaranteed. That is most assuredly the case for me in this issue. Some of the holes your system has built which undermine the deterrent effect of death as punishment:
- The question of killing the innocent, raised by this decision. I agree; punish the guilty, not the innocent.
- The various different qualifications that the legal system has built to mitigate the act of murder, redefining it to manslaughter, criminal neglience, all carrying less severe penalties for commission of the act than capital murder, or first degree murder. Just a thought: first degree murder and manslaughter aren't at all different to the victim. In either case, the poor soul is just as much worm food.
- The dispariate number of black males who are subject to execution over whites which perform the same act. Moreover, the failure of the state to execute virtually all women for the crime of murder, along with persons under the age of eighteen. Building racial, gender and age discriminatory attitudes into who gets what severity of punishment to me constitutes a further example of cruel and unusual punishment upon those who the state will kill.
I'll stop there, and let others into the discussion with any examples they'd like.
I can't accept or allow any person to be put to death under the system as it stands now, with these and dozens of other problems I'm sure will be mentioned undermining the credibility of the penalty's effectiveness. When you're society, or any other who ascribes to this as a punitive measure under its social vengeance system (Not justice system: justice to me is merely the sense that a society professes in feeling equivalency in the punishment's force balancing the horror of the original act), that state should have the stones to punish equally, or I will work to assure that the lawbreaker will not face that particular method at all.
BOS
>I just don't see Entwistle as being any more important than let's say, Rush Limbaugh. They are both semi-celebrities who mean absolutely nothing to me. <
Meaning nothing to you is not a gauge of someone's importance, Frankster.
Entwhistle is WAY more important than Rush Limbaugh. This is one of those statements that is self-evident, that needs no itemized list of justifications. So I ain't going to provide one. Just accept the truth, like when trees hit philosophers, there will be screaming.
**And to be frank, if my Mother or Father were to die, I would be sad, but no more sad then I am about the dead in Afghanistan**
Frank, you failed your Turing Test, didn't you?
love,
chris
LA is fine, but I will take a city like Seattle, or Vancouver any day. I need trees. Sorry HE.
I just don't see Entwistle as being any more important than let's say, Rush Limbaugh. They are both semi-celebrities who mean absolutely nothing to me. I am not down-grading anyones pain at Entwistle's passing, but I am merely giving the board my spin on things. And to be frank, if my Mother or Father were to die, I would be sad, but no more sad then I am about the dead in Afghanistan-- that is just me. I am not a moral relativist. I try to care about everyone, no matter how far from my own personal landscape they may dwell. But, that is how I look at the world. The rest of the board can feel any way they like.
---------------
Frank Church does love everyone on this board. Even you, Rob, you prickly pear you.
-------------------
This may be waaaay off the beat for a Jersey boy like myself, but did I read that there is a serious secession movement in the LA/Valley area....?(actually, I did read that, but the LA paper wanted $3 for the reprint of the longer article, so it can wait till I get to a good library)
Any of you Angelenos following this story? Would it make any difference to your lives?
There were rumblings of a secession movement from one, and then two, of the New York City boroughs in the past, but they seem to have vanished with the ascension of Rudy Guiliani. I'd imagine that a secession from LA would have equally major implications for the region, no?
David, yes, funny, but seriously....I'd be interested in your arguments on that issue.
Susan here:
Westercon update. Attorney John Carmichael of Kulik, Gottesman & Mouton will also appear with Harlan at 4:00pm.
Scott,
Indeed, an interesting premse for denying executions - here in Illinois, we're under a moratorium due to just how screwy the whole Death Row turned out to be. Should be interesting to see just how much the 1st premise pulls weight in the courts....
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Canada is one of those civilized countries that ban state murder, right?
Appearance News:
HE will be at Westercon on Saturday July 6th @ 4:00pm. To be held at: Los Angeles Airport Radisson Hotel, 6225 West Century Blvd., 90045. HE will sign after appearance.
It appears that the courts in American are rife with decisions to challenge things American:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=716&e=7&u=/nm/20020701/ts_nm/rights_executions_dc_1
Must say; an interesting premise.
BOS
I'm a bit late with this, but Jim D. asked about LASIK surgery. I echo Jim G.'s comments and also include my own comments.
Jim, I had my eyes done in early May and have had no complications as of yet. I don't think I'll have any, but never say never (unless you're talking about the 6 things you would never EVER do, but I meander).
I was legally blind in my left eye and my right eye was doing all the work, but the coke-bottle glasses and contact lenses I used (not at the same time, though) were getting to be a pain in the ass since I'm a bit active and spend some time outside swimming, running, etc. Yes, it was pricey, but my health plan covers some vision care and I was able to get a discount so call up your provider and see if they have discounts available.
Check out this site for more information. I had mine done at Duke and have no hesitations or qualms about recommending them to anyone and everyone, though physical location will be a problem if you're not in the area. The website below gives a pretty good overview of what LASIK is and gives pros and cons for all corrective surgical procedures.
http://www.dukeeye.org/refractive/
By the way, what really sold me on Duke was the doctor's statement concerning my chances of having a "successful" surgery (meaning, they guarantee 20/40---I've got 20/25 in my left and 20/20 or a little better in my right). He said that if I wasn't a good candidate for surgery, he would tell me because it would just be wasting my time and throwing away my money. But, and this to me is the most important reason though he didn't say it in so many words, he didn't want to do the surgery on me if I wasn't a good candidate because he didn't want me telling anyone that Duke did my eye surgery and it failed. They have a reputation, y'know.
So, in a way, they had some skin in the game, too.
One other thing: My vision would get fuzzy near the end of the day because of reading and computer work. Didn't matter if I was wearing glasses or contact lenses, my vision would still get a little fuzzy and my eyes needed a bit of rest at the end of the day. Since the surgery, my vision does not get fuzzy and the eye strain is considerably less.
You may now return to the regularly scheduled programming of More Pressing Matters.
Venkman,
As far as I know (which is none too far...), the "fair use" clause allows for a (singular) copy for ones own personal use (provided you don't pass it around or sell it).
You should be able to make a copy (say from cd to pc) with a clear consience. Where you get into some really grey areas is with regard to public performances and such. You may want to check the federal copyright statutes (provided you understand legalese) for more information.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
-Andrew
David,
I'm sorry about your Dad.
Cindy
Eric Martin:
Piece o'cake. Let me know which philosopher would prefer to stand still while I chop down the tree at an angle that may topple over on him, or at least scratch his face, versus having me curse him in God's name. He can even make up his argument for why the tree behaves in accordance with his solipsistic intentions BEFORE I take the axe to it.
Yep, Lynn --
You drove past the house where I spent my teens. My Mom still lives there. The sign remains, although my Dad was killed by a drunk driver six years ago this month. He was indeed a piano tuner ... among many other things.
RE: David Loftus
> I can establish that the tree has substance separate from my thoughts and ideas;<
David, I'd be most interested (and so would much of current philosophy) to see how you do this.
Chuck: Nope, it's mine. Just one of those moments of inspired thought I so rarely get. By all means use it, and thanks for the credit. Mel says hello, and hopes all well with all of you and yours.
Czar: Nope, most are about 5 - 10 years old, and some older. The amazon.com suggestion is a great one, to follow both date of publication and titles.
Now, a greeting to my brother and sister Webderlanders who habitate north of the 49th: Happy Canada Day! Rejoice in our Canuckness, our polite laid-back manner; the way we tolerate Jean Chretien as our leader, comfortable in the knowledge that Bush makes him look like a genius; the joy of having snow in order to write our names with urine, and enough beer to guarantee the necessary amount of fluid to be able to spell even the longest of surnames. Be proud, say "a-boot" aloud. Have you kissed your Rex Murphy lately?
With that, fare well for now. I'm off to swim, eat BBQ until I start oozing beef and pork out of my pores, and top the day off by lighting explosives, then saying "He blowed up good, real good!"
BOS
Czarcasm, I've been giving it more thought, and come up with some more current (that is, published in the past five years) science fiction for the YA niche---
Garth Nix has a neat little series called "The Seventh Tower." The five books in the series tell one long story, which held my kids enthralled to the end. These are for nine to twelve year-olds. The same author has a nicely scary post-apocalypse novel called "Shade's Children" for older teens.
Then there's "The Tenth Planet" trilogy by Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rusch. It's based on a notion that earthly disasters have been caused by overharvesting of our natural resources by irregular invasions from an unknown planet on the edges of our solar system.
And Neil Shusterman has a clever book in "The Dark Side of Nowhere," wherein the protagonist finds out that he's part of an alien invasion, and the doctor's been giving him DNA shots to maintain a human appearance.
There are a lot of good SF books coming out for kids, really. The trick is finding them in the far larger morass of fantasy titles.
If I purchase a product, (For example: "Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral audio tape") can I keep a private backup copy in MP3 form and/or burn it to CD as a back up in case, say, one of the tapes is knocked off a table and trampled by a large dog?
How large a group consitutes a public performance?
And if I've already purchased an item, misplaced it, is it ethical to download the exact same material online?
My assumptions are: Yes to the backup copy so long as it is private use. Gray to the public performance, but certainly any time it is broadcast or performed in a place that charges admission. "Too bad, kiddo...go buy a new one." on the lost tape replacement.
Czarcasm -
amazon.com has lists compiled by its users on various subjects. I pulled up a few, but the URL is longer than an IRS instruction form. Go to amazon.com and do a search "children science fiction." Many of the lists and recommendations are "fantasy" and Lord of the Rings shows up quite a bit, but if you're sifting for gold, you gotta go through a lot of mud.
(not that LotR is mud...but...)
Ok, I just have to pipe up now.
"-heit" doesn't mean "health". It's a suffix turning an adjective into a noun.
"frech" = "cheeky" -- "Frechheit" = "cheekiness"
"gesund" = "healthy" -- "Gesundheit" = "healthiness"
Hope that helps.
Thanks, BOS, but too many of these were of our generation. I need contemporary juvenile science fiction that has been written within the last 5 years or so.
BOS:
I'd add to that list Garner's _The Weirdstone of Brisengamen_, which I read as a kid and enjoyed thoroughly. Hell, I *still* enjoy it.
Let's see.... James Schmitz's _Witches of Karres_, _Children of the Atom_ by Wilmar Shiras, ermmmm.... Oh yeah, _The Carpet People_ by Pratchett, which has a few thematic similarities to the Truckers books.
When I did some work with middle-school kids last year, they were particularly enamored of the Animorphs books. I read one, found it plenty interesting (I'd have loved it as a kid myself), with better characterization than you'd find in, say, the Mushroom Planet books.
If you can find a collection of stories by Zenna Henderson, I'd reommend them highly, too. She taught school, and had a way of writing stories that were just as accessible to adults as they were to kids. _Holding Wonder_, _The Anything Box_, _The People: No Different Flesh_, _Pilgrimage: The Book of the People_. NESFA recently published an omnibus collection of her stories, it's still in print unless I'm mistaken.
Simak's _City_ I read about that age, too. _Podkayne of Mars_, maybe? Dunno; a lot of the Heinlein juveniles really, really don't hold up.
Hope this is a help.
Thanks, BOS. Were any of those written within the last 5 to 10 years?
Brian,
Just thought I'd chime in after reading your piece in the Philly Inquirer. It was a clear argument concerning the intrusiveness of the Historic Distric status, and the fallacies that led some of your neighbors to initially support the proposal. I can see why you were so distressed about how much you had to whittle down your article. I believe you wanted to go more in depth and had to simply skim over the facts. Although you were forced to cut out so much of substance, you still made a good point. Here's hoping it helps your cause.
Chuck
"Those who conceive of intelligent design should consider democratic government in action..."
Scott,
Laughed so hard when I saw that I almost fell over. Mind if I quote that? Or was it a quote to begin with?
Watch where you aim that Zamboni, and tell Mel hi for me.
Chuck
Cindiana,
Gesundheit is derived from two words. My german is a bit rusty, but "heit" means health. So, I think "good health" is correct. In other words, "You vill not get zick, UND you vill luff it!"
Chuck "The Knife" Messer
"Oh, the shark bites, with his teeth dear, and he shows them pearly-white...."
I've a nine-year old, and am getting her to cut her teeth onb some of the old man's genre reading. The titles mentioned are great; here's a few others:
John Christopher: The Tripod Trilogy - The White Mountains, The City of Gold and Lead, The Pool of Fire
Alan Garner: Red Shift
Diana Wynne Jones: A Tale Of Time City
Terry Pratchett: Truckers (I'm looking for the other two titles in the Nome series)
Madeline L'Engle: A Wrinkle in Time
These are just a few off the top of the noggin, and a quick look on her bookshelf. If I or my daughter remembers more, we'll send them along.
Best, BOS
Oops. Sorry about those blank messages.
Anyway, regarding Kubrick and Napoleon, Salon had an article on it a few year back. For those interested:
http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2000/10/04/napoleon/print.html
Joseph,
Thank you! Yes, Yenta was the word I was grappling for! The spelling I used is directly related to my shiksa status.
Rob,
No need to admonish me about your copyright... scroll down, lamb, and look... I am the one who asked the Pastor for permission to post an EMAIL he authored. I don't steal.
I have my own little bag of fascinations... ask those who have read my script.
Thank you FRANK,
I think you're a cute little mutherfucker too. But you already know that.
:)
cindy
Thanks, Alex. I'll add these to the very short list I've already compiled. I thought that Powells Books might help out, but that was a big bust. Their "Children's Science Fiction" section listed 3248 books, but I gave up when the first 200 books listed were ALL fantasy.
Czarcasm, there's plenty of fine SF and fantasy for today's teens. Start out with TROUBLEMAKERS, a new collection by Harlan Ellison. Complete with introductions guaranteed to keep the kids reading.
After that, pick up David Gerrold's recent trilogy, JUMPING OFF THE PLANET, BOUNCING OFF THE MOON and LEAPING TO THE STARS. These Heinleinesque juveniles deal with many a contemporary issue,and they're excellent hard-sf as well.
Orson Scott Card's various "Ender" novels are also hugely popular with YA audiences. I'd guess from what you listed already that you're familiar with those.
--Alex
Maybe y'all can help me. I had a great idea for an ORYCON panel about contemporary juvenile science fiction, but then I realized that to me "contemporary" meant Heinlein, Asimov, Foster etc. Is there any new science fiction directed at the teen and/or preteen set being published?
I mean Bruno Antony
I'D LIKE TO TELL YOU ABOUT MY IDEA FOR HARNESSING A LIFEFORCE. IT WILL MAKE ATOMIC POWER LOOK LIKE THE HORSE AND BUGGY. I'M ALREADY DEVELOPING MY FACULTY FOR SEEING MILLIONS OF MILES...CAN YOU IMAGINE BEING ABLE TO SMELL A FLOWER ON THE PLANET MARS?
- Bruno Anthony
Jon -
Oh Lord...buzzword statements like that make me cringe. I hear that jingo bullshit every day.
"Our core performance levels neccessitate the proactive downsizeing of our labor force."
"This team member requires extensive retraining in various areas of performance."
"Your office will be re-assessing its mission next quarter."
and my favorite: "Are you acting true to your vision?"
Joseph,
Actually, in afterthought, to be fair, I didn't like 2010 much but there were a couple of passages I admired. I do like Balaban, for instance, and I like the "connection" he made with HAL (but that's about it). He came a long way from the ravenous little gay guy on the hunt in MIDNIGHT COWBOY.
He was perfect (as was the whole main cast) in ALTERED STATES. That's a film I DID like.
Joe,
No. I meant 2002. Look at my post a ways back and you'll understand why.
On the other hand I didn't like 2010 much either.
Alex,
I applaud you. You've manged to finish what my ruminations about Frank's comment could not. Good, reasonable job.
Rob,
Did you mean 2010 instead of 2002? If so, I rather like 2010. By no means great, it is enjoyable (and highlighted by great performances by Helen Mirren and Bob Balaban (who is more and more becoming one of my favorite "oh, that guy" actors).
Regards,
Joseph
Washu,
Re: Napolean.
Rod Steiger did it. Brando did it (horrendously). By all rights it was Jack's turn.
You just stuff the actor with sawdust and stick the whole cast along with 5000 plus extras on orange crates. Movie magic, man.
Frank, you are missing the point so widely that I am reminded of the line from CAT BALLOU, when Lee Marvin reels drunkenly as he attempts to shoot a target on the barn door.
"He did it! He missed the barn!"
You missed the barn, Frank.
When you say, "Sorry, rock fans, but a privilaged rock star like, Entwistle just doesn't garner much sympathy with me. And the Who has been really greedy as of late," you don't understand what we're sad about. I'm not feeling sorry for Entwistle. I'm feeling sorry for myself. I enjoyed listening to Entwistle. He's not going to be around to provide new enjoyment for me anymore. Get it? I'm sad because of _my_ loss, not his. And as I said, I couldn't care less about the Who. On the other hand, when George Alec Effinger died, I felt sorry for me (because I won't see him again), but sorrier for him. I _knew_ him. It's different.
And the comparison to the dead of Afganistan is a complete non sequitur. My father died back in January, Frank. What, I should consider how a lot more people died in Afganistan and blow off the personal loss? Come aaaaahhhn, man. That's pompous bullstuffing. That's just "my sadness is more important because it's an issue" drivel.
I'll tell you true, Frank, I've oft admired how you stand up to a lot of battering on this board. But on this one, you're just approaching it from left field.
--alex
No, nothing surpasses 2001. Some movies come close (A Clockwork Orange being one) but no film is superior.
There are only two movies that make me cry every time I see them. One is Dancer in the Dark and I'm not objective - I have a mega-crush on Bjork. The other is 2001 which I have seen many more times than I have seen Dancer. Every instance of Also Spake Zarathustra is just so... so... it's... well, it's the apotheosis of the motion picture as art. Does that make any sense? The best moments in 2001 are the best that film has ever achieved.
But the film medium is so young, it hasn't even lost its baby teeth. Surely someone else will top 2001. Perhaps in my lifetime.
Rhapsodically waxing,
chris
ROB: Jack Nicholson has the looks for Napoleon, but the stature just isn't there. I wonder how Kubrick would've 'shrunk' Jack on-screen...I sure as hell hope not 'digitally'.
Harlan: Thanks! "Autarch" doesn't convey the hypocrisy, but "Pecksniff" is right on the money. And it's really appropriate, because here in Spruce Hill, one of our proudest landmarks is a lovely statue of Mr. Dickens and Little Nell. (Time to pull _Martin Chuzzlewit_ off the shelf for pointers.)
Jon Stover's sample sentences of modern-day pecksniffery have the Ring of Precision that I've been looking for as well. Jim Davis's "quidnunc" is fine, but too obscure even for me. Alex K's 'airhead' had occurred to me, and it is accurate, but it's a little too modern for my purposes.
Now for some words for Frank. While the rest of us are sadly noting a musician whose work we've enjoyed, Frank has never forgotten the thousands killed at the hands of our military. Not only that, but he's helpfully reminded us of Entwhistle's "privilege" which, in a truly moral world, would make his passing unfit for comment.
Without Frank, why, I might actually have been more upset over my _mother_ dying than the people of Afghanistan. After all, she was a member of the privileged middle class, and hadn't suffered anywhere near as much as a typical Third World citizen. And when she passed, I ddi feel sorrow and regret and pain... but then I asked myself, "What would Frank Church do?" and the answer came immediately.
I am truly in awe of Frank's finely tuned moral sense, and we should thank him, _THANK HIM_, for providing us with the perspective we've managed to live without for all these many dark years.
Brian,
BTW, nothing's as good as 2001. Nothing surpasses it.
Nothing's as BAD as 2002.
Frank,
"Entwistle's death just doesn't move me. I am more concerned about the Five Thousand dead in Afghanistan, so far."
Well, OBVIOUSLY.
If a musician you ARE a fan of died would you be more concerned about HIM than the 5,000 dead in Afghanistan?
E. Champion,
I read at length about Kubrick's long commitment to NAPOLEON, his obssession with the subject, the MASSIVE notes and script outline he wrote and his efforts to get a near-equally obssessed Jack Nicholson involved. UA had lost too much to fund the budget for the epic and I think it's a damn shame.
Thanks y'all for your sympathy...
CINDY: Just remember I copyrighted my troubles. One day they MAY appear in a movie (or graphic novel). (Since a jelly doughnut has more talent than Adam Sandler I have some confidence I can one day wedge my way into that industry). But, no, thank you much: I don't need God as yet unless he(?) can offer me a job. The September business drastically effected my work status (I was with a non-profit whose budget was wiped out); since I'm IN school - though I'm off until August - my options have been limited. My bank account ran dry and I'm not getting work. I went to Borders looking for a book on 101 ways to commit suicide but I couldn't AFFORD the damn thing. It's the rent: I'm still $150 behind for June and we're on the verge of getting a notice (they accepted a payment arrangement; but they'll only put up with it for so long). THEN I'm going to have to worry about approximately $350 for July's rent. It utterly sucks. Hell, I'm ready to mug the bums in the back ally! The poor bastards are too fucked up to articulate the incident to cops; yeah: now THERE'S a plan with promise. My poor roommate is scurrying around town to get the cash together (if she must even prostitute herself she has my approval; that's how desperate I am. OK, Ok. I'm joking). I feel like one of those ragged, destitute characters in Dickens...except that I receive $8000 in grants in late August. I just have to get through this next month. And hopefully in the course of the interviews I'll get work between now and then. I'm waiting to hear from a number of people. Since so many are looking for work employers are taking their bloody time.
I really have to speed up my pacing in the school program - I'm not taking summers off after this - so I can start landing graphics jobs (down the line it will be animation); the beginning is always toughest.
JIM,
Yes...very piquant.
CHRIS,
I don't know where you might have read the MA/BL comparison. I know it occurred to ME. And I really love BL: it's set up like a fictional documentary, if you will, in part to minimize the use of dialogue and heighten the sense of blind ritual - a central thematic point of the film (and I love the cynical epilogue Kubrick wrote - or adapted? - just before the closing credits, drawing parallels between the 18th century and present day. It was funny as hell). My feeling is, once you understand what he's trying to do and your head really gets into it the film becomes quite addictive. At one point I virtually looped it in the vcr (in fact, I got caught in that trap only a few nights ago with Strangelove; this time it was Scott I was watching carefully instead of Sellers. President: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolph Hitler!" Scott/Gen. Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr. President, if you were more concerned with the American people than your image in the history books". Well, not altogether: the husband/wife-like "Dimitri!" exchange on the President's phone is priceless: "you are NOT more sorry than I am...I'm capable of being JUST as sorry as YOU are").
You're right about Ophuls. I'd somewhat forgotten (right now who's surprised?) but, yes, Kubrick did emphasize, in particular, the grace of Ophuls' camera work. Welles was his genuine passion. And if I once knew about the Lean reference being that significant I'd forgotten THAT too.
Rob: Have you recently quit smoking? Your symptoms are almost exactly identical as mine, and I stopped polluting my lungs with the junk a week ago. More oxygen, but basic cognition has gone to hell. I hope that it returns soon, even if this means staring at the printed page for a few weeks with all the vapidity of a flattened five year old sponge. And I would sooner cut out my own tongue if I used the other designer drug, the one that involves a deity. Frighteningly enough, it seems as readily available these days as Phillip Morris.
And the Magnificent Ambersons/Barry Lyndon comparison never occurred to me until now. Certainly, there's almost an identical approach to the young upstart angle of both films. But after the intermission, when Barry has transformed himself into a authoritative parvenu, it delves more into Kubrick's ruminations upon circumstacne and the two films part ways in linearity. And is it just me or is Barry Lyndon a satirical riot? It contains precisely the kind of sweeping comic tone that Thackeray's novels were all about. Kael & Co. have largely condemned the film, dismissing it as a glorified slideshow, but for my money, Leonard Rossiter's John Quin is an astutely portrayed, almost timeless and spineless autarch, seemingly reluctantly so, particularly revealing in the little things that Rossiter adds, such as the nutty askance looks he offers as he's marching.
Incidentally, there's a new book being put out by the Kubrick estate next year that will contain Kubrick's script and his plans for "Napoleon," the film he never made. Kubrick was so obsessed with Napoleon that he had a collection of some 18,000 books on the little fella.
Also, Frank Church is all right, as are the kids behind John's low notes.
Chris L.: A Spielberg-Mamet teamup? Who would have thought?
Brian: Lines that include "We need to open a meaningful dialogue", "We need to be pro-active and inclusive" and "The point isn't to judge the student, but to make the student feel comfortable in the expression of his or her views in the learning environment" spring to mind. Reconstellate your views, think liminal, be forward-thinking...
Jon
Harlan, no need to defend me, these yokes mean well; and frankly, they are some cute little motherfuckers. Especially ole Cindy sittin over der...grrrrrowwwwll.
---------------
Joseph, matters what you think a "leftist" is. There are many shades that can be painted with the same brush. I term myself a, "Libertarian Socialist". I believe in things mostly based on facts from reliable sources; mainly things that aren't affiliated with the corporate media; which consistently distorts and censors different viewpoints.
Joseph, since Harlan agreed with my last 3 postings shouldn't that mean that you should also be mad at him? Just want to keep you honest, my friend.
----------------
Sorry, rock fans, but a privilaged rock star like, Entwistle just doesn't garner much sympathy with me. And the Who has been really greedy as of late. Their idiotic appearance at the Concert For New York was promotion plain and simple. Besides being that concert was jingoistic crap anyway. I mildly like the Who, but Entwistle's death just doesn't move me. I am more concerned about the Five Thousand dead in Afghanistan, so far.
BRIAN:
I missed your post, earlier. Try "quidnunc" and "magpie." (Magpie only fits the chatterbox portion of your description, but it's a great word, nonetheless...)
BARRY LYNDON:
Rob, somewhere in my neural network an association between Barry Lyndon and Magnificent Ambersons was formed in the past few years. Did I read it in one of the books in my Kubrick library? Did I make it on my own? I couldn't find any mention of it in the first few books I checked but I'm sure it exists.
And, for the record, in addition to Ophuls and Welles, the director Kubrick mentioned most often when pressed for a favorite director was David Lean. Oddly enough, as often as he mentioned Ophuls, he also said he didn't really think Ophuls wasa great director, just that he was fascinated by his camera movements.
Brian, the comparison between Barry Lyndon and 2001 is very apt. In 2001, Kubrick offers us the most beautiful of contrasts - a grand, glorious spectacle of space travel which awes the view... and bores the characters to death. This is like hopping on the subway to go to work for these guys. To me, this is an example of how thoughtful, perhaps uniquely so, Kubrick was. What other director would take the time to think about his characters in this way and to present the world in such a restrained, matter-of-fact manner. The only two names that spring to mind Are Altman and Bunuel.
Likewise in Barry Lyndon, we see drop-dead gorgeous sets and magnificent costumes. It is a beautiful world which is terribly tedious to a bright but unimaginative Barry Lyndon.
I like and admire Stephen Spielberg but he would have insisted on peppering both stories with endless "ooh ahh" moments, trying desperately to please the audience. As would most Hollywood directors. Kubrick resisted such dramatic blandishments.
BRIAN:
Try "autarch" or "pecksniff."
Harlan
Cindy,
That's "yenta:"
"Noun: A person, especially a woman, who is meddlesome or gossipy.
Etymology: Yiddish yente, back-formation from the woman's name Yente, alteration of Yentl, from Old Italian Gentile, from gentile, amiable, highborn, from Latin gentlis, of the same clan."
(American Heritage Dictionary, 2000)
It also, after "Fiddler on the Roof," has the implication of a marriage broker.
Regards,
Joseph
"Yenta" won't serve Brian's needs. It really just means a low, gossipy old woman. I was thinking of something along the lines of "officious airhead," but that's really too general. Harold Grey used to have a character along those lines, but I'm damned if I can remember her name. Of course, Grey was so conservative, he probably thought Attila the Hun was a bit too pink for his taste.
LEAPED!!!!!!!!!
Yes OF COURSE-- IT'S LEAPED!!!!!!!! Why did I write lept? Rob, you're not the only one whose brain is threatening to crash.
Cindy
A few words.
Rob: Every day is that wonderful sense of confusion for me, where my sense of the vernacular is suddenly thrown sideways, often at the time I might need it most. When the voluminous torrent of memos, reports, invoices, work orders and other flotsam of bureaucracy (My boss must've been Selznick in his prior incarnation: I like to think that I'm revenge for what David O. tried to do to Hitchcock) sits me at the desk, there's nothing I hate more than having a word or phrase I've used countless times before disappear in a case of cranial vapour lock.
Good thing I've spell check on the laptop...
"Gesundheit" is to wish one who sneezes "good health".
Mr. Ellison: "And in closing, let me suggest you stop bitch-slapping Frank Church. I, personally, give it up, concur, endorse, and agree totally with his last two/three postings."
Sorry; I've been through this zoo a thousand times, and that the first time I saw the "Please, Don't Feed The Liberals!" sign. I know, the advent of conservatism has made them an endangered species requiring protection...
Thanks, and fuck you, too! ;)
BOS
ROB!!
Good morning TROUBLEMAKERS!!!!!!!!!???
That's hilarious! That should go in a movie. Geeeze, that's funny.
I'm sorry that times are tough for you right now.... maybe it's time to believe in GOD!
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT was a joke!
On the serious side, I hope things right themselves soon. The good thing is that you're still laughing. THAT, my friend, will get you past this trying time. You also have a lot of people here who care about what you're going through... myself included.
Take care, Rob. If you need to communicate I'm around. I hope it's something minor like somebody dinged your car with his door, or you're in a job transition that's going to take you in a better, more fulfilling direction. I hope if it's family related it has to do with somebody loving you too much and trying to take care of you, if it's health related I hope it's insignificant and you're already on the mend.
:)
Cindy
BRIAN,
As one of the Webderland goyim I can only surmise, but the word that lept to mind was "Yente". If I have it in my head it must have come from one of Harlan's glossaries. Does that word fit? I don't know if I spell it right either.
Cindy
Re Harlan's 9/11 piece. I'd like to know what happened to that review of _Lord of the Rings_.
Re "Officious Prick." Close, but I'd like to avoid profanity. "Officious" hadn't occurred to me, probably because of some aphasic stroke or brain fart or something, but that's on the right track.
Re _Barry Lyndon_. One of the most challenging, unique, and profound movies I've ever seen, and it rivals _2001_ as Kubrick's greatest accomplishment. It does so much that's _against_ what you'd expect a movie to be. It's an historical epic, yet it shows the mundane, everyday life of people of its time. None of its events are world-shattering or profound. The people behave not as movie characters, but as human beings would in that time and in those circumstances. No attempt is made to make the 18th century seem as exciting or as vibrant as the 20th; instead, the final title card and the historical remove put everything into a perspective of time that, well, few filmmakers are willing to show. The main character isn't a Movie Star character-- he's a good-looking guy with very little talent and not much intelligence, and even ambition's forced onto him by circumstance. The _Magnificent Ambersons_ aside, I can't even think of a movie it's remotely _like_. (Okay, there's _The Age of Innocence_, but Scorcese was influenced by _BL_ there.)
Nothing new to add to the pledge issue but why on earth would I want to swear an oath of fealty to a country that thinks this is a good idea.
Legislation proposing a Department of Homeland Security would make that department immune from whistleblower statutes and the Freedom of Information Act:
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20020622-42082444.htm
Throw that on top of a really schizoid school voucher system and a health care "system" that makes Gilliam's "BRAZIL" seem reasonable and the whole liberty and justice thing seems like a cruel hoax. Think I'll get a passport this year while it's still an option for non-business travellers.
- Barney
In light of recent conversation here in the Library at Alexandria, I want to recommend a lighter bit of media for your inspection and enjoyment.
I picked up the DVD of Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" featuring several recent, fairly recent (1992) and archival programs from the BBC vaults about Douglas, his life and HHGG. It contains the 1992 "Making of..." program, interviews, an episode of "Omnibus" (kind of a British "Biography")featuring Douglas, the BBC bumpers and TV spot for BBC 2, photos, interviews...quite nice. More than the show itself (which is so clear you can see the glaring difference in painted matte shots to the real sets) it offers a fair and loving tribute to DNA.
Hey, I'm about to scan the rest of the board again, but I remember our patron was to publish an item on the events of 9/11...did this happen, where is it? I'll check, but if someone could lend a gimp a gi'me before I dive into the pile I'd appreciate it.
JOSEPH: Thanks, man. My blood's boiling with excitement.
And now, Evil Vets 101: Took in my basset Elvis for a check-up of his eyes yesterday. Turns out he also has a bacterial/fungal condition of the skin. Not that it's causing him any pain; rather, it makes for a very distracting smell. The vet didn't even bring this UP until I asked about the odd stink myself. And then he went off like a bazooka. 'Oh, yeah, yaddayaddayaddaBACTERIALyaddayaddayaddaFUNGUSyaddayaddayaddayaddayaddayaddayaddaSHOULDBEIMMEDIATELYTREATED.'
I just don't know.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
JOHN G: Thank you for the information. I agree--four grand is a bit pricey, but if it means that I won't need glasses for the rest of my life, then it's worth every penny. It's late/early as I type this, so I'll wait 'till later to check out that website. Again, thanks.
ROB: Regarding your mental fuzziness as of late--I feel you, man. Goddamn, do I ever feel you. (Please pardon the reference to the Allmighty, but you have to agree that there's no Atheistic substitute for the phrase that has quite the same...piquancy, no?)
I'm starting to sound like a refugee from a Collette novel. Time for bed.
(Welcome back, Lynn.)
Chris,
A ways back you mentioned something about worshipping Kubrick.
I was looking at Welles' MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS. Some time take a look at this film; then run BARRY LYNDON. Knowing Kubrick's fondness for Welles as an influence (Max Ophuls was the other) I'm convinced he used MA as a model for his approach to BL. Many strong parallels.
Loftus~
Do I recall something about your father being a piano tuner, and does he have a shingle out on Ocean Blvd, in Charleston, OR? If so, we waved as we went passed.
Dutiful recounting of our Oregonian adventures will commence as soon as I have slept. Highlights include: petting a seven week old snow leopard (as well as a Siberian lynx and a caracal, all the same age), cuddling wee baby goats, photographing a herd of Roosevelt elk bachelors from less than five yards, watching an osprey take a fish from a jet boat on the Rogue River (again, less than five yards), and the Redwoods. And too much seafood, which is never enough.
Note of caution: do not bring smoked salmon into a house with cats without wearing chain mail. It is not a pretty sight.
Typing while unconscious,
L.
Lemme tell you something. Without going into details the last two months have been waves of massive stress for me. When things get so chaotic...well...I'm REALLY stupid! A jelly dougnut has more cognitive capacity than I do.
My spelling's fucked; I'm forgetting words I usually know; my reading sucks; I locked myself out of my car a week ago; I tried to cash my paycheck before it was signed (I actually hadn't noticed it!); a month and half ago I was working temp for a finance company called Troubleshooters...I answered the phone for them and accidentally said, "good morning, Troublemakers" (a Freudian slip? At least the CLIENT laughed like hell); I haven't been getting places on time; I've been misplacing stuff constantly, etc. In brief, I've been SO unfocused.
...it's time to take Yoga.
OK. Harlan, you had said, "leach all the suspense", as in to remove something like a liquid by percolation; I had said "leeched out", in reference to our friendly neighborhood blood-sucking worm. My error trying to quote you (not paraphrase). The figurative meaning is essential here. I didn't notice your 'ea' until scrolling down just now.
I'm sure there's another problem somewhere staring me in the face but I'll look for it after the Yoga.
Cindy, close, it just means health.
Brian,
Is "officious prick" one word? :)
Oh, for more on the religion-in-everyday-life thing, check out
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
I'd like to ask all of your advice on something. I'm looking for a word, or a phrase, to describe something.
I'm trying to describe a specific type of person. It's a combination of busibodiness, a willingness to meddle in other people's lives, with a strong sense that others are simply not intelligent or wise or aesthetically aware enough to know better. There's an element of snobbery, and a strong sense of authoritarianism as well. Imagine the sort of person who feels that speech codes and the banning of frat parties is the most pressing need on a college campus and that black people wouldn't be happy in their neighborhod, and who may very well count themselves as "liberal" mainly because conservatives are so _icky_. Someone whose worst impulses are filtered through a collection of buzzwords and sentiments so that they sound high-minded and "concerned."
I'd love to find a nice, short word or phrase that sums up this particular type-- so far, the best I have is "busibodies."
(I'll be grateful if no one takes me to task for stereotyping.)
What does gesundheit actually mean? Good health?
Cindy
John,
I'm sure Jim will say the same, but thanks for the advice on Lasik. I've been curious myself!
Little Washu,
I have your copy of "Hulk: The End." It's fabulous, and I'll be sending it out on Monday.
Regards,
Joseph
Jim---I had LASIK done about two and a half years ago, and am quite pleased with the results. And I made Magoo look like Chuck Yeager....now I'm at an effective 20/20.
The way I understand it, a consultation and testing will tell you not just *if* they can do it, but tell you with great accuracy just how much improvement you can expect, given some parameters like the shape of the eyeball.
Let me suggest this site: http://www.surgicaleyes.org , which has a good deal of current info on techniques, which are always improving, and a great cautionary forum of dissatisfied subjects...it's not for everyone.
That being said, my pocket was lightened by a good $4k or so, but being free of glasses, for real, for the first time since I was 9 has been a marked positive change in my life....
Harlan,
Yeah, I would agree Preminger’s ouevre was SORLEY diminished. Many people I run into - even those who aren’t particularly into film - recall ANATOMY and MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM (the latter, in fact, was recommended to me often), rightfully so; but nothing else. I absolutely dug those two films (I’ll take a look at WHERE THE SIDEWALK ENDS), yet I didn’t prize them for their style (and here a Spielberg or a Scott WOULD indeed hold the advantage); their effectiveness rose from the script and a dead-on cast.
Your point about BUNNY reminds me of Hitchcock’s response to ON THE BEACH. He felt Kramer missed all the advantages of the material, the suspense having been leeched, as you put it; upon seeing it I agreed. It was one of the few Kramers that disappointed me. Now, Kramer is a beacon to me - with a long chain of groundbreaking classics - but his mastery came as a producer: as a director he was unremarkable. Yet, he pulled off INHERIT THE WIND brilliantly. Here is another case where an average director pulls off a memorable masterpiece, in spite of his limitations. Like Preminger’s ANATOMY, the power of INHERIT THE WIND generates from the script and the astounding cast. It’s an interesting dichotomy, unremarkable directors pulling off a film superior to the output of more inherently talented directors. Nothing Ridley Scott ever did, for example, could measure against either INHERIT or ANATOMY.
I often find this kind of pedestrian quality in actors who see themselves fit to direct. That MIGHT explain Preminger’s problem.
The only thing I remember seeing by Russell Rouse is THE WELL. Far too long ago for me to remember. I know he did THE OSCAR; I never saw it.
Thanks, man. That was really informative. Someday maybe you can tell me about Ken Russell.
Just saw HIGH NOON with Gary Cooper and Grace Kelly.
The townspeople who were unwilling to help Kane horrified me on several levels - mainly because of the stark reality that I could have easily been one of them - but never right to the very core. Not until the final image of every citizen of the town pouring out of their homes like a disturbed nest of ants after the danger was gone. I suddenly wanted to vomit.
Good movie, damn good movie.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I also don't say "bless you" because I refuse the nod to superstition.
When silence doesn't suffice, acceptable substitutes are "Shut up!" and "Cut it out, will you?"
In all seriousness...
As I approach my regular round of corporeal tune-ups (doctor, dentist, dermatologist, etc.), I notice that I'm WAY overdue for some new glasses. What I'm wondering is: Has anyone here undergone Lasik corrective surgery? Does it really eliminate the need for lenses forever and ever, world without end, amen? Any information you guys can share will be greatly appreciated.
Harlan, on the other board, wrote: "Repeat after me, OBTRUSIVE IS BAD...INVISIBLE IS GOOD. OBTRUSIVE IS BAD...INVISIBLE IS GOOD. OB..."
The next time a woman sees me naked, I'll be sure to tell her that.
Bill,
How about "Gesundheit?" Not that many people speak German these days...
Regards,
Joseph
Okay, about the things atheists say (or don't say). This might be a weird one but I've found that most of us are a little weird here. Or is it the rest of the world that's weird? Oh, who cares? Anyway, I'm sitting with a friend--a fellow atheist (as thought it were one large club)--and my daughter sneezed. I said, "Bless you," and she ran off. Then I turned to my friend and said, "I hate saying that. Tradition or not." And it's true. Is there a group opinion or maybe the recommendation of one or two people who have a replacement for "Bless you" when someone sneezes? I, personally, don't feel a sneeze should be addressed, but that the person who sneezes shoukld excuse him/herself. Maybe gesundheit?
Bill
ROB:
If I ever had a particularly pronounced atttitude on Otto Preminger as a director it was that, for the most part, his work was mannered, but pedestrian. I did (and do) admire LAURA and WHERE THE SIDEWALK ENDS and ANATOMY OF A MURDER, but (as you know) I used BUNNY LAKE IS MISSING as a classic example of how a director who is not up to a task can leach all the suspense and terror from a story. His EXODUS and THE FAN and most of the rest of his work still seems to me ponderous and posturing. He wasn't a particularly awful or inept director (as was, say, Russell Rouse), and his vogue was a long one...but he looms not large at all in my world-view of directors worth remembering. (Which attitude, while hardly universal, may account for so much of his ouevre being forgotten or diminished.)
Further, deponent sayeth not.
Harlan
Harlan,
In the alluvial layers of posts is buried, as you know, my musings about O. Preminger. Not at all to henpeck you or debate the matter because I respect your schedule demands (I even respect my own) and I've already given MY angle on it, but if you take a break for a moment I'd be genuinely interested in getting your feelings on this director in a few brief words and why he rated so low on your list...despite films like ANATOMY.
I promise, you'll get no "but what about...?".
The straight Dope's take on courtly oaths and atheism:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_145.html
And, as I have had pointed out to me lately, I will attempt to be more courtly to Mr. Church. But as Marvin would say, he makes me SOOOOOOO ANGRYYYYYYYY....
Regards,
Joseph
Re: the swearing-in. As an attorney/notary public/hearing officer, whenever I swear anyone in, I use 1 of 2 phrases: (1) Do you swear to tell the truth? (or) (2)Do you swear to tell the truth under penalty of perjury? My experience in FL is that the "under God" is used less and less.
CHRIS:
Cindy's advice is well-timed and prudent. I, too, bristle when I'm required to swear the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...SO HELP ME GOD. But what Cindy offers as gardyloo is smart and dead-on.
Here's MY solution to the problem.
(And I've done considerable jury duty, have appeared as an "expert witness," have been involved in trials and lots of depositions and whatall these last three-four years.)
When the court clerk (or whoever) asks me "do you swear to blah blah blah, so help you God?" My reply is this:
"I WILL TELL THE TRUTH."
I do not directly acknowledge the form in which the question has been presented, I do not alarm that vengeful True Believer of whom Cindy warns, I play no games of misdirection or chicanery, but I DO aver my ethical intention to obey the letter and spirit of the Law. Without loosing the rabid dogs.
You might want to try this simple expedient.
Hoping all goes well, Harlan
Harlan,
ABSOLUTELY. On ALL your points, including the careless reading and reckless grammar...as I too equate this place WITH the Alexandrian Library (let’s show the proper erudition!). I do need to read posts more attentively (I thought I'd learned this lesson from my infamous "stupid German" post, which ignored parallel structure, leaving the object vague. You'll not catch me with that sort of carelessness again. I'm trying to keep my gpa up in this grammar class of yours. This may be hard for you to take down but I don't generally make these types of errors when I'm writing). I need to read my OWN posts too: prepositions in particular tend to slip by me when I don’t scan for blotches before sending it all through.
Your correction marks and counseling are always welcome. I just hope you don't start tagging on fees.
And Frank...
My last shot was meant as an innocuous rib; yet, even I, of late, have begun to sense a monotony in the water bombs aimed at you (it's like the White House when Teddy Roosevelt's kids moved in). There will be a mellowing. We can’t let lurkers think they’re going to get that kind of shit when they consider posting their views. When you get honest criticism about such things as logic, timing and delivery (and that you can still expect as the rest of us must) I do wish you would weigh it; all of us (meself included f'sure) can use more self-scrutiny. But repetitive cheap shots and immature teasing will cease.
Egregious and Bemoaning but Ameliorating Forever,
Rob
I love Todd too... and Frank.
CEP:
Teach evolution-- it might be right. Who is to say that it is not and who should have the power to shove a concept down the throat of somebody else's child? The concept of Evolution is fine by me. My faith won't fall apart if God didn't create the world and Adam and Eve in six days. Maybe it happened that way maybe it didn't... I'm open to suggestions and don't have a problem with my kids being exposed to all manner of thought and all types of religion. In FACT I encourage them to attend as many different places of worship as possible so they will have a better understanding of how alike we all are. We miss something crucial when we limit our circle of association.
Also, as I said before; (when I figured it out the other night) go ahead and take the word "GOD" out of the pledge, it won't hurt anything. He'll still be around. Why should we be so afraid?
CHRIS!
Be caaaaaareful. Some Christians are less open minded and if they hear you ask to leave the word " GOD" out of your oath they might behave illogically. You never know when you'll end up with a Bible thumper juror who is vicious, judgemental and unfair. Sometimes it's better to stand on principle when there is less at stake.
Just a little heads up, I want you to kick ass on your father's behalf.
Cindy
Here is the absolute-last word on The Pledge: http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499. Read it, and sin no more.
I have to say, Frank Church is all right in my book. Despite all the scorn and verbal abuse heaped on his head, Ol' Frank keeps coming back here to express his opinion. (We all remember the infamous "Fucking Fuck" Incident of 2001, don't we?) The guy has cojones the size of diving bells.
I wish, however, that he would stop writing "should of." (It's not like we haven't pointed it out to him, after all.)
ROB WROTE (YESTERDAY, Friday 28 June 2002):
"In closing, I'm stunned Harlan doesn't equate this hang-out to[sic] the Alexandrian Library..."
Now, far be it from me to suggest that apart from improper grammar, Rob's most egregious minor flaw is that he doesn't read all that closely, but ... didn't I say just the opposite of what he's bemoaning, in my post just preceding his?
And in closing, let me suggest you stop bitch-slapping Frank Church. I, personally, give it up, concur, endorse, and agree totally with his last two/three postings.
Anybody wants Church, muddlefuggahs, they gots t'go through me.
Yr. pal, Patrick Henry Ellison ("The rabble are coming! The rabble are coming! Break out the Flit!")
http://www.msnbc.com/news/773696.asp
That's a link to a great article about the Godless constitution and the history of the intrusion of religion into public life over the past 50 years. If some people don't understand why atheists call these power plays by the religious folks "scary" and "frightening", I think this article can shed some light on it.
Well, I've not gotten to the issue of Scientific American mentioned; anothe periodical I susbscribe to and have gather dust in the mail pile, but I've always wondered about the logic of those who ascribe to this particular premise of our genesis as beings.
I look at the circumstances of the "Chicxulub event", which ended the Saurians reign over the world 65 million years ago and consider: What was the IQ of the asteroid that impacted just off the Yucatan coast of Mexico? Or the millions of other impacts which dot every planet in the solar system, including the one which will may bring about our demise, based of current theory.
But it leaves me to think, what about the idea of a random genesis of man leaves the religious feeling so offended? I see the opposite; what a tremendous run of fortune, culminating in my being able to sit and consider the question of our origins as a species (apologies to Darwin). It has me marvelling at our intelligence (when we decide to use it), our luck, and our opportunity as creatures in this existence.
Curious too, is how the question seems to sit solidly on our species' conception, and not on the evolution of those creatures who came before us. Indeed, the religious have always seen to dismiss the fossil record, or refute it if possible. I see it as a self-indulgence engaged by biblical theorists, another facet of the maintenance of the "man as dominant creature" concept, in order to justify the construction of the gods of man.
"I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed." - George Carlin
Maybe man could do better...?
"I can get a week off, and I've got lots of tools", says a Bag-O-Scott
Robert Sawyer nicely uses "intelligent design" in _Illegal Alien_, in which "intelligent design" becomes the major driver of the central courtroom mystery. Nice read, as were all the other Sawyer novels I've read.
Cheers, Jon
LW - I can appreciate that. People has wrestled with such questions for years. A noted philisopher considered the same issue when he asked:
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
Mitch
MITCH: Okay, so I try to find deep, poignant, psychological motivations for comic book supervillians. I'm just kinda screwy that way.
But for me, it wasn't so much a matter of WHY he wore the mask, as WHERE did he get it?
Now back to the Pledge and Church and State.
I know it wasn't personal, Cindy, and perhaps not even intentional, but you pushed another one of my hotspot buttons: the so-called "intelligent design" bull&*)^&)T_!t that Certain Idiots want my kid to learn instead of that evil evolution stuff.
Although I realize that this is a debate nobody can win--it is about faith, not science, which actually answers the question, but that is beside the point--I suggest that anyone who has even the most tenuous belief in "intelligent design" consider the following:
* The current issue of Scientific American has a very nice article debunking the whole issue
* Just how "intelligent" is a design that includes an appendix, a spleen in adults, inability to replace damaged neural tissue, and eyes of the design we have? Sorry, but these (and similar) defects and their ontogenological ancestors are actually better evidence for "imperfect" evolution than anything else short of the fossil record. Admittedly, I've spent a little bit too much time dissecting beasties in the lab (and a few of them were even already dead... just kidding) to accept the "intelligent design" nonsense.
* At its core, though, does the "intelligent design" material even belong in a science course? It is at least as "unprovable" as evolutionary theory, and concerns itself with something that is even less reproducible than initial lifeform evolution. Presuming we could set up the proper conditions, we could test the latter; we can't test the former unless the intelligent agent shows up. Plus, it doesn't matter scientifically.
Religion is about first cause; science is about proximate cause; and confusing the two is the surest way to piss off anyone who is thoroughly steeped in either and who does NOT have a hidden political agenda.
(And Cindy, this is not pointed at you personally, except in that your comments a few posts back set me down the trail. I'm not accusing you of ill intent. I cannot say the same for idiots like, say, Paul Johnson.)
Joseph,
"Frank is on the left?"
I wonder if his family knows all this.
David:
You didn't know? Frank Church is a pseudonym used by John Ashcroft to spy on you good little liberals...
And please, have a nice day. Really, honest, I mean it...
I love Carlin's comment:
"Everybody wants me to have a nice day. Yeah, yeah. Give me my fuckin' change."
Carlin's solution to the Pledge:
"Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen."
"Instead of school busing and prayer in schools, which are both controversial, why not a joint solution? Prayer in buses. Just drive these kids around all day and let them pray their fuckn' empty little heads off."
With that, I can leave, serene in the knowledge that all problems have solutions; it's just that assholes who've gotten control of things won't listen.
Have a really nice day...
Bag-O-Scott; a man who has problems, but hasn't found a way to profit from them yet.
David,
Frank is...er...wacky? Loveably wacky?
Regards,
Joseph
Okay, his purest talent and best years "may" have been wasted but he still writes a mean letter. And on a typewriter no less!!
A nice piece of work from Hunter Thompson:
http://www.gonzo.org/pix/HunterDuped.jpg
- Barney
From the Peter David post:
**People pledge to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God. **
For me, this is a much bigger problem than the Pledge.
I have been fighting an endless suit against a hospital which killed my father due to gross negligence. During the proceedings, I have been deposed a few times and had to take an oath.
The first time around, I informed my lawyer that I am an atheist and I didn't want to take the regular oath to God. I didn't know what the word for that "other thing" was but she said no problem. She informed the court reporter taking my deposition and she then proceded to ask me to swear to tell the truth blah blah blah "under God." I was surprised but just said "Yes."
Second time around, I asked my lawyer again. She said I could just request an affirmation instead of an oath. OK, great. Here comes the affirmation. Blah blah blah blah "God."
What the fuck? Give me the one that doesn't have God in it.
Next time I'll ask again if they have anything on the menu that isn't served with God but I expect the same result.
Sure, I can still say yes and not be lying. I will tell the truth and God is just a nonsense term I can ignore but nobody should be required to swear any oath to God merely to gain admittance to the American legal system. It's wrong and it should be changed.
I agree with Peter David's general point but I think that when we can change things, we should. The Pledge is easy to change. "In God We Trust" on our money is inappropriate but would be absurdly expensive to change and isn't worth the effort. The Pledge or an oath in court? Easy to change so why not change it? Let the theists swear to God. Let the atheists swear to someone else.
Make me swear an oath to Stanley Kubrick. I consider that vastly more binding than any oath to God. I'd never lie in the name of Stanley.
Peter David chimed in beautifully and ever-so briefly (THAT'S the way to do it) on the Pledge topic in his website entry today. For those of you touting that we must must must for Gawdsakes must have pure separation of Church and State, please read his lucid words at http://www.peterdavid.net
-TODD
John Entwhistle was not cold, he was cool, as in a cat. Played the bass with fluid ease, and the french horn too! French horn is a bad muther to blow! John, 57 is too young to go, baby. 57 is prime-time. I haven't been a Who fan for a few decades (rock n roll is a young man's game ---it's The Hives, White Stripes, and The Strokes that revvv it up for me these days) but when I read the news of Entwhistle's passing I became sad.
David, I only defend myself on one of your comments to my closing of "Thank you. And have a good evening."
> Why do people always say "have a nice day" or its
> equivalent right after they've spit on your shoes?
> It's hypocritical and snide. Just say your piece and be
> done with it. Or is "have a good evening" your way
> of reassuring yourself as well as everybody else that
> you're really just a great guy, even after you've just
> pissed on somebody?
It's hard to make assumptions on the the meaning of the thanker....in my case, I am ending a performance piece. My 'thank you' is tantamount to "drive safely", "I'm here every Tuesday night" or "thank you, it's really great to be here. For my next trick."
Watch the assumptions. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a great guy or not (I am, I am!!!). I don't need to reassure you, and I don't need to reassure myself. I love me.
Your Pal, Todd.
Joseph:
So how would you classify Frank, based on his statements?
And Frank ... Geez, man, lay off Entwhistle at least. You're blasting away at an image, fercrissake. That's like lambasting Ellison for being a woman-hater, f'rinstance; something only ignorant folks do.
Maybe now's the time to trot out my Who autograph story...?
On Sunday Lynn mentioned in the "other room" that she and Bill were headed up to Coos Bay and Coquille, Oregon, but I only just saw it today. It's probably far too late to suggest she swing by my Mom's house in Barview (between Coos Bay and Charleston).
Congrats and bon voyage!
I assume you two are not coming any farther north....
"Hey, Mitch: Is the Vasa dry now? For the uninitiated, the Vasa was a magnificent wooden Viking ship that promptly sank in the Stockholm harbor on its maiden voyage, if I remember correctly. When my family took me to see it more than 30 years ago, it had only recently been raised from the muck and had sprinklers all over it, keeping it wet so it wouldn't disintegrate from a sudden exposure to air. The plan was to wean it away from water slowly, and I think that has happened, but Mitch can confirm."
The Vasa is dry, and looking splendid. No trip to Stockholm is complete without an hour or two in her presence. The museum has seven levels, and all of them are open to the ship, so she can be viewed from many heights and angles.
However, she was a Swedish naval vessel, not a Viking craft. More like a motherhuge galleon.
"But Norman Osborn was a corporate overlord. Why would he suddenly want to be a Goblin, AND Green to boot? The first logical answer would be a flight suit to go along with the glider; that clicks. The mask is a bit more difficult to rationalize. Personal demons from Halloween, maybe?"
C'mon, LW. He used an experimental formula that drove him crazy. You're looking for logical answers and rationalizations?
CRAY-ZEE.
It's all the reason he needs.
Welcome to the funny pages :-)
Mitch
Jim:
They remain my favourite, for much the same reasons you've mentioned. Agreed, there are better albums and better bands, but the brawling psychosis that was the Who couldn't be beat in my mind. Ox's stoic stance was a much a show stopper, perhaps because it was so anti-Townshend or Daltrey.
My favorite moment in "The Kids are Alright" is Entwistle going through his home (the room filled with basses just floors me), and takes down a few of his gold albums, to take outside and machinegun and shoot into pieces. Damn funny stuff.
No comment on the question of atheism; I am one, and I don't see it changing. The wife and kids love me, I have a good job and better friends, grooving tunes, cool flics, and a sense of humour. Plus, with Canada Day celebrations this weekend, I get to have explosives in vast quantities, all for my amusement. Who needs heaven?
The Bag-O-Scott: a man who would like to see lame fireworks like snakes and sparklers banned, to be replaced with more powerful bottle rockets and cherry bombs...Blow things up real good, yep, real good!
Little Washu: Crom didn't save us from _Conan the Destroyer_ or _Red Sonja_ either.
Jon
And I bet you my comments will appear in Coulter's next book as an example of liberal invective...
ON THE PASSING OF JOHN ENTWISTLE: I'm more than a little bummed. The Who were the very first rock band that I listened to in more than a passive way (in the sense of actually sitting down with the lps and trying to work out what was going on musically and lyrically). Though other bands have since outstripped them in my affections (The Stones, The Kinks, The Velvets, among others), Townsend and Co. popped my cherry, sonically speaking. For that, they will always have my gratitude.
Oh, and I LOVED Entwistle's "coldness" on stage. While Townsend was windmilling, Daltry was strutting, and Moon was, er, MOONING, Entwistle casually peeled off these amazing bass runs with an expression that said, "On the whole, I'd rather be polishing my Bentleys, if you don't mind." Affectation or not, it provided a brilliant visual counterpoint to the rest of his more manic bandmates.
Frank mentioned Ann Coulter. I have little to say about that woman, except to note that she has the longest neck I have ever seen on a member of Homo Sapiens. We're talking Plastic Man and Stretch Armstrong, here; we're talking the brass neck rings that the Karen tribe in Burma forced their girls to wear, here; we're talking some kind of Island-Of-Dr.-Moreauish Giraffe people, here. In other words: What a goddamned FREAK.
Oh, and she's an idiot, too.
David,
Frank is on the left? Could have fooled me.
Regards,
Joseph
Cindy:
> I'm still wrestling with this one:
>> "Faith does not "exist" except in the sense that
>> human beings give it life."
> I don't argue this point at all... but it still exists no
> matter where it comes from... or who gives it life.
To me, the existence of faith - whether in UFOs,
life after death, the effects of astrology, or God -
is of a significantly different order from the existence
of, say, that tree outside your window. I can establish
that the tree has substance separate from my thoughts
and ideas; I cannot firmly establish that faith does not.
To speak of "the existence of faith" as if it were some
sort of evidence for God's existence is a tautology. It
is like saying, "UFOs must exist because I - or other
people - have an inclination to say that they do! How
else could I have gotten the notion?"
> And the belief that God does not exist is still faith
> based too isn't it?
This annoys other atheists on the board, but I'm willing
to grant it. Partly because it cuts any objective basis out
from under believers. We're all credulous here together,
and nobody comes out ahead.
> If we were all to face nothing but concrete facts.. we'd
> have to all be agnostic.
As we should be. But it's apparently quite human to
be self-delusional.
Regarding the Pledge, Todd came out swinging:
> Who cares?
Quite so. Your conservative friends are making a big
nasty deal out of nothing.
> As with most liberal conceits, all this blathering
If you want to speak of blathering, Todd, I'd say the
folks who are upset about the ruling are making a
lot more noise about it ... with much less logic and
a lot more hypocrisy.
> I am aiming at the boring liberal screeching that makes
> Dr. San Francisco insist that is it so goddamn important
> that his child not hear the word "God" because
> Goddammit (oops) it just might melt her grey matter.
Several of us have already agreed that the plaintiff
(who is not from San Fran but rather more conservative
Sacramento, California, thank you very much), has the
right cause but the wrong tactics. His child is just a
pretext anyway; I think most of us would agree he is
likely hurting her with all this fuss more than helping
her. But the principle of the thing - which you so glibly
dismiss as "beneath notice" only because the status quo
would leave things the way conservatives like them - is,
at bottom, very important.
> It's about many of our college youths who grab onto
> whatever liberal cause there is available to sit and
> circle jerk over flavored over-milked coffee with
> their high falutin' intelligence on the ills of the world
Todd, you're not going to earn much respect for your
point of view if you habitually shoot off your mouth
about others'. Both you on the right, and Frank on the
left, would do well to learn the use of blowguns instead
of dragging out a howitzer every time you want to get
off a shot.
> and how something like a stupid pledge that we did
> in kinnergarten and beyond is going to take down our
> rancid country because...because...because...fill in the blank.
No, you got that wrong. Conservatives complain about
the country going to ruin, or that it already has, much more
often than liberals in matters such as these. The liberal
position here is simply that it's WRONG.
> Fuck the pledge altogether. Let's say it doesn't get overturned.
> Let's say that the Democrats in congress don't play politics
> (ha, congress. no politics. Whatta concept) and don't worryz
> about the upcoming elections (which is their true reason for
> embracing unity in their 'outrage.' Let's say that the pledge is
> kapoot.
> So, is Dr. San Francisco Whatever Hisnameis Daughter's
> laugh any fucking different (other than having to learn,
> when she grows a mind of her own, that her daddy is a
> fucking kook who really needs to do something better with
> his dirty God-infested money than waste it on this pablum)?
> If yes, how?
> Really. Not intellectually, how?
I'd say we'd be better off not so much because things will
have changed significantly - they won't have - but we will
have seen and proven that the system works: That this
country really does try to abide by its principles and is
capable of correcting itself when it goes wrong. That means
a lot.
> Thank you. And have a good evening.
Why do people always say "have a nice day" or its
equivalent right after they've spit on your shoes?
It's hypocritical and snide. Just say your piece and be
done with it. Or is "have a good evening" your way
of reassuring yourself as well as everybody else that
you're really just a great guy, even after you've just
pissed on somebody?
JON: Yeah, well, Crom still didn't save us from Arnold's "Da Hell With Yu!" speech, did he?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Harlan: Hey, I knew Dershowitz was a jerk from Day One. Not because of his defense of clients I didn't care for-- that's a lawyer's job, after all-- but for his declaiming of legal principle while pushing some pretty reactionary, authoritarian garbage.
As for the Deco Pavilion's purpose, I'd figured that it was the place for higher-minded topics and better behavior, and that _this_ board was the playground.
Frank Church: Man, you have to learn how to rein in some ugly impulses. How, for example, is John Entwhistle's alleged "coldness" supposed to mitigate the sorrow over his death? For one thing, it doesn't-- he was a fine musician, a decent songwriter, and from what I can tell from friends who'd met him on various tours, a generally decent guy who had a wicked, mordant sense of humor.
On the Historic District front: If anyone wants to see a sample of a little project of mine, due for release in the next month, and you don't mind getting a one-megabye-sized email attachment (JPG), send me email at bsiano@cbellatlantic.net. I'd like feedback and praise, please.
Frank,
"Michael Moore was right on in his criticism of shows like Jay Leno's. Chat shows like that are really about nothing but corporate entertainment promotion. Masterbation for monkeys with gold cards...Say what you will about PI, but at least occasionally it actually tried to say something."
Abso-fucking-lutely. It was also just about the funniest I'd ever seen. I walked back into the room at the end and saw Moore and Tim Robbins walking off with pieces of Maher's set. I also like how they took jabs directly at ABC from the network's own show. It was almost surreal.
One can gripe in one's political correctnes (missing the fact this is the only show of substance at this hour on regular tv) about how Maher behaves but his passion, particularly in recent nights, endears me to him. I can like him and dislike him equitably.
BTW, I do feel bad about Entwistle.
In closing, I'm stunned Harlan doesn't equate this hang-out to the Alexandrian Library; NOW I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting my time. It'll take me a while to mull over THIS.
A BRIEF INSERTION OF ELLISON:
I grew up with the pledge sans "under God." It was a perfectly serviceable statement of properly-modulated affection for my native land. During a time of America's involvement in a war as big, if not bigger, than the current excuse for erosion of the Constitution. But when the Knights of Columbus, in the Red Scare era of Eisenhower mollification of McCarthy (till McCarthy went after HIM and he saw his ass on fire), successfully lobbied to have that venerable pledge sullied, I ceased pledging. That was fifty years ago. "He serves the state best, who opposes the state most." I pledge allegiance to Henry David Thoreau, and to the genuine patriotism for which he stands...
And how pleased I am that y'all have finally come to understand that Dershowitz is a dirt-bag. He's the sort of "progressive" we do not need to succor.
Now, I go again. Having left spoor in the Art Deco Pavilion for those few of you who aren't concerned about more important topics. I sort of look on the main board here as The Great Library of Alexandria, and the Pavilion as the playground at Lathrop Grade School.
And for those who wanna know, yeah, we still need contributions for KICK. But youse guys have ponied more than once. So try to spread the word elsewhere. Let them know that not only have we NOT lost the case, as the webhead 5th columnists have trumpeted, but Judge Cooper saved us about a hundred grand in trial preparation fees, by sending us on to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. That, by the way, is the same Court that handed out the Pledge of Allegiance fire-arrow. So you can see why I'm elated to have escaped a lower court trial, with all its heavy expense, just to have AOL appeal, thereby sending us to where we already are...without the cost.
Frabjous day, calloo-callay!
Yr. pal, Israel Zanger Ellikson...er...Ellinson...
Dershowitz is a real dissappointment. Here is a lawyer defending the Bill Of Rights who thinks Al Queda prisoners should be tortured. How about we scotch this OJ loving prick into the dustbin of bad goons. And he always tells complete lies about Chomsky. Boy, am I angry this week. Harlan's rankor rubs off. Hooray.
On Crossfire and on Fox news last night, all the Conservative parasites are saying that being for the Pledge decision is a form of Political Correctness. Don't these fuck wads know anything about the definition of PC?:it is censorship of political speech that doesn't conform to the prevailing stink. These people shame the Darwinian communal pool. Fuck em.
----------
PI last night had to be a classic. Bill Mahar was almost in tears, and the panel just vented for most of the show about how important discussion shows are to a democratic society; even shows that are mostly about entertainment. Michael Moore was right on in his criticism of shows like Jay Leno's. Chat shows like that are really about nothing but corporate entertainment promotion. Masterbation for monkeys with gold cards.
Say what you will about PI, but at least occasionally it actually tried to say something.
I'm going to have to take a Zanex before I see the last show tonight; too much Ann Coulter is bad for ones mental health. One of the few woman I would term a bitch. She earns it.
---------------------------------------
Entwistle is dead, which is not good, but frankly, he was kind of a cold fellow. Never broke a smile to save his life. Maybe if he could have enjoyed his fame more then he would still be alive. See, being rich is not all it's cracked up to be. And the bastard could of left his money to me.
----------------------
Todd, thanks for justifying my belief that Conservatives don't give a hoot about the Constitution. The wall of seperation helps religion, it doesn't hurt it. Secular doesn't mean, Atheist, it means neutral. And that's a good thing in a Democracy. No, Todd, you can't have a gummy bear. Bad Todd. Now go to your room young man.
Venkman - I got a chance to read that article by Dershowitz, and it is indeed very disturbing. He's arguing for a "torture warrant" to be appointed by a judge based on "compelling" evidence that a person may have information regarding *some*sort*of*future*terrorist*attack. This advocates the use of "non-lethal" torture to gain information a suspect may or may not (depending on how a judge views "compelling" evidence) have with regards to said/proposed attack. It is a dark and dangerous idea, I do believe. I mean, what do you do with a person? Break an arm, hit them in the head with a rubber mallet, or as Dershowitz suggests, hit them with a sterilized needle just under the fingernail?? Do you suppose to gain any sort of meaningful truth this way? This is not, at the moment, a police state. The department for Homeland Security has not yet branched out to become the Gestapo. I don't think we can use terror - and this would be real terror - in the fight against terrorism.
Helz,
I'd say (he equivocates, noting that he's not a lawyer) that the cases, while similar, have one fundamental difference: eBay is not storing or selling these fradulent items. The copyrighted works, however, are being stored on various servers owned by ISPs. Hence the difference.
Now, for something much more fun for everybody! Take a look at the catalog page I found through Google's catalog search. Somebody putting the catalog together had a nice bit of fun:
http://catalogs.google.com/catalogs?start=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&issue=4590&catpage=242
Regards,
Joseph
So this morning I come into work and there's a package waiting for me. Knowing what's inside, I open it eagerly, and in moments I'm staring at the ultra-cool Smoking E clock. I pop in a battery and hang it up at my desk for all to see. A little while later my associate from across the way hollers over, "Hey, Dan, what time is it?"
I look up at the clock, a sly grin on my face. "It's half past 'mree,'" I say.
(ducks)
From the "Great Lakes IT Report," June 28, 2002:
EBAY UPHELD IN 'BUYER BEWARE' CASE -- A California appellate court rejected the appeal of a decision that EBay was not liable for the sale of fraudulent sports memorabilia on its site. The decision is a further loss for six people who bought mementos that turned out to be fake, then sued the online auction operator. EBay (EBAY) successfully argued that the Telecommunications Act in the mid-1990s makes clear that Internet companies and service providers are not responsible for the content of the items bought or sold on their sites. "This is the first published decision at the appellate level, therefore in legal terms, it may be cited as a precedent in future legal proceedings," said Kevin Pursglove, an EBay spokesman.
It looks like there's little direct connection, in that the AOL case is about copyright infringment and the rights of authors, and the EBay case was a reaffirmation of caveat emptor with regard to the buying and selling of counterfeits over the Internet...still, EBay's legal argument sounds a lot like what AOL is claiming (that they had no responsibility for content bought and sold on their site, etc.).
Thoughts?
Alan Dershowitz has a disturbing little treatise on the use of "legal torture" in the July issue of "The American Legion" magazine in a little bit called, oddly enough, "When All Else Fails... Why Not Torture?"
Checked the American Legion site, but it still has the June material online. I'll see if I can find the text elsewhere.
Some background... http://www.spectacle.org/0202/seth.html
Dershowitz on Torture Warrants... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL
Any thoughts?
All,
Greg Kot, the fine rock critic for the Chicago Tribune, has an interesting obit for John ENTWISTLE up:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0206280081jun28.story?coll=chi%2Dnews%2Dhed
Regards,
Joseph
The Editor's Poke:
That all kinda MAAAAADE me wonder.
Cindy,
"Neither position is grounded in concrete fact."
Uggh. WHEN will I learn to just let things go? WHEN? WHEN? WHEN? WHEN? WHEN?
I was inferring, quite to the contrary, that my position, at least in terms of what's available to make assessments, IS grounded in fact. Remember? Religion is forged by historical data such that we can trace and perceive the origins of the various faiths. That's CONCRETE fact informing me where each interpretation of God comes from (there is no evidence of parting seas and talking fiery bushes; but we KNOW what the Church did to Galileo in typical fashion along with the Copernican theory). On the other end, blind faith in some great being is supported by...NOTHING...nothing but what each of us, as you yourself suggested, decide to put into it. But once we understand the concept of a deity is rooted in the superstitions of an ancient primitive people the argument becomes groundless.
Whatever form you perceive this being in do you ever ask yourself questions about where it came from? What it thrives on? Why it exists at all? How it came into existence? If it existed for all eternity what laws make that possible? (And replies like, "that is simply beyond our comprehension" are disregarded). If you KNOW it exists, or believe it does, there must be other things about it you believe as well. If it's the creator of all laws - of all 'things' - what allows for such a paradox? If there is such a being factually then why is there such widespread intepretation of it? Sorry to rattle off with all that but these fundamental questions and more weighed on me before I was even six. Nothing ever manifested to answer those questions. Everything that I apparently "needed" to know came from the lips of human beings of different faiths oblivious to their own contradictions; that all KINDA me wonder.
Cindy...don't you feel just a TAD guilty for starting all this?
Y'know, Conan's prayer to Crom in _Conan the Barbarian_ always struck me as a model of religious clarity. Here's the reasons you shouldn't care, here's why you should care, and if you still don't care, then to hell with you!!!
Of course, Crom did answer that prayer, sort of, by sending Sandahl Bergman back from the dead in a Valkyrie suit, but so it goes.
Cheers, Jon
Rick,
I'm so sorry, I don't know what possessed me to whop that yellowjacket nest here in your living room. I'll go away now so they can die down and I'll think twice about doing it again in the future.
Why did I do that? I guess it's like drinking a bottle of Pepe Lopez tequila on the heels of some emotional upheaval. It seemed like the thing to do at the time.. but the headache and roiling stomach afterward leave little doubt that it was stupid. Self inflicted pain leaves no room for self pity.
:)
Again, I am sorry and I won't be doin' anything like that again. That sucked!
Cindy
**But aside from my Christianity I look at the world and wonder how anyone can question the existence of a diety. What would be the odds everything forming and maintaining perfect order and balance by happenstance? **
What perfect order and balance?
Pretty good order and balance, sure. Perfect? No way.
As for this whole line of argument, I admit it is somewhat persuasive. My usual reaction, however, is to observe that if it had happened another way, we just wouldn't be here to wonder how it all happened the way it did. There'd either be another intelligent race asking the same questions and wondering how the world had evolved just to suit them or there'd be nobody around to ask those questions (as is the case on most planets.)
Why does a person win $50 million or get run over by a zamboni? It coulda happened another way but it didn't. Just because it did doesn't mean you should ascribe any meaning to it.
GEEZE BUD,
Well shut my mouth!
I wasn't calling YOU a southern babtist.
LOL!!!
Neither was I offended by what you wrote.
I was joking, hombre.... just joking. I definitely didn't intend to offend you by implying we were on friendly terms. My apologies, I'll not make that mistake again.
:)
Cindy
**The statement, "God does not exist" is a faith
statement. **
This is the bit that always starches my shorts. I think it is grossly inaccurate.
The sky will not turn plaid-colored tomorrow.
Is this a statement of faith? It's never happened before but it could still happen tomorrow. Does it mean only faith can enable us to believe this statement is accurate?
Perhaps reason and science can provide the basis instead. It is an observable fact that the sky has existed for many millions (billions but only millions when it has been observable by humans) of years and has ever been plaid. No known mechanism can turn it plaid. Plaid isn't a color in the spectrum.
These and other observable facts lead us to the conclusion that the sky will not turn plaid tomorrow. If it does turn plaid tomorrow, we can then conclude we were wrong.
God does not exist.
Is this a faith-based belief? It certainly can be but it doesn't need to be.
If, like the plaid sky, there is simply not a shred of evidence that God exists, we can make the statement "God does not exist" without invoking the power of faith.
We can likewise leave open the possibility that God does exist just like the sky might turn plaid. We would need new data, data that does not currently exist or at least hasn't been measured, to change the hypothesis but that's how science works. It measures. It collects facts. It changes as new facts are gathered.
Perhaps we need to be more precise in our language. "To the best of our knowledge, God does not exist." I think the first part is implied, just as it is in any scientific observation, but if you need that to understand the difference between science and faith, then just tack it on.
If God should ever happen to appear to the world and inform us on his plan for humanity or on his taste in hip-hop music, then I'll say "Oops, my bad." Til then, I say "God does not exist."
Dearest Rob,
It could not have been an intentional putdown because it was not intended for your eyes. He sent it to me alone... you weren't even part of the equation. He gave me permission to post it AFTER I read it then wrote him back asking if it would be all right.
I don't have any issues regarding Atheists not believing in God.
I just wrote that I question whether a belief that God does not exist is any more credible than a belief that he does. Neither position is grounded in concrete fact. I can't show you his living being and you can't show me his corpse sooooo technically the agnostic position would have to be the only defensible one.
MEANTIME...
BARNEY!!!!!
Your description of Atheism was beautiful! I can grasp that concept and I can respect the position. THANK YOU for taking the time to write those lines. It made a difference in my perception.
Hey d'you read my script yet?
:)
cindy
Cindy said:
"He's lots of things but average ain't one of them. OH and in these parts calling someone a southern babtist is tantamount to calling him sonofabitch.. sooooo tread with care, pal o' mine."
Cindy, I'm not your "pal," okay? We don't know each other.
And I neither know, nor particularly care where "these parts" are; I was, as I said, raised a Southern Baptist. I am no longer. The phrase was used to define ME, not you or anyone else, and I find it a little odd that you took offense, no matter how glib you are about telling me so.
Cindy,
Fair 'nuff. But let's be real: asking your Pastor about Atheism is like asking ABC about Bill Maher.
No, no: I ACCEPT it as his version of a put-down...and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way. More accurately, for the historical reasons I drew earlier, I wouldn't expect it to be any other way. Blindfolds by any other name.
The important thing, you B'lievers, is that not everyone thinks like you do; I'm convinced many among you forget that or the Pledge issue wouldn't be such a quandary.
postscript - Cindy writes; "What would be the odds everything forming and maintaining perfect order and balance by happenstance?"
Actually, I think this is untrue in almost every frame of reference from the subatomic to the cosmic. A gross imbalance in the distribution of everything from heat and light to Outer Limits autographed chase cards is why the universe looks and behaves like it does. If the distribution patterns of the universe are the idea of a deity it's not a deity obsessed with order, harmony or parity. In my humble opinion.
- Barney
*** Cindianajones *** I ran this line last year but I'll say it again. Atheists are [frequently, mostly] misunderstood. We are not running around talking about the non-existence of God and looking for converts. It would be a zero sum game at best. We simply don't have any religeous or deist impulse. It's a little like saying you are an anarchist. People with no background in the political philosophy simply assume you are all about throwing Molotov cocktails through plate glass windows. Although not completely Spock-like I think atheists for the most part simply don't get as worked up about the issue of deity or deities, which to us is, after all, a non-issue.
- Barney
[WHO nevertheless believes in Rock and Roll heaven and is composing the set list for a band made up of John Lennon, George Harrison, Keith Moon and John Entwhistle...]
Alex:
You're half right, regarding Townshend's deafness: he is partially deaf, as a result of prolonged exposure to 120+ decibel sound levels. The Who were Guiness World Record holders for the title "World's Loudest Band", until the title was taken by the metal group Manowar.
You're perfectly correct about "Whistle Rhymes", a wonderfully fun bit of black humour on vinyl, especially "Who Cares?". What really makes me smile is his horn and vocal on "Heinz Baked Beans" on "The Who Sell Out". It's on my turntable right now.
I told Mel of Ox's demise, and she recoiled, remembering the time she had our youngest in the car, and the tyke had latched onto the "Creepy Crawly" vocal hook from "Boris the Spider". Think of it: one hour of the hook, a two-year-old's high pitched singing voice repeating it over and over. Mel angrily told me of what had happened, and asked me to try it for awhile. I did, and sat singing it right along with her as I drove. Upon returning to our home, I told Mel that I was fine, and had even taught my daughter to sing it on key for the next time they were out together.
Y'know, you wouldn't think a woman standing 5'7", and weighing about 110 pounds could throw a refrigerator with such heft and accuracy...My youngest tends to give me such delight as a parent.
"What's for tea, Daughter?"
The transmission was due for replacement, the Zam being ten years old. I was noticing a bit of clutch dropping the augers to shave the ice before laying down water, and the drive train wasn't responding smoothly, so I did a check. The bearings were starting to go. Did it myself, with an industrial engine crane I borrowed. This way, the taxpayers here only pay for the part; my salary pays the cost for labour. If I had to take it to the shop, our good citizens would've been on the hook for a good five grand more.
Can't wait to get a good pitcrew, so I can race at Indy next year. I figure my chances are good if there's snow at the Brickyard...
The A.J. Foyt of Zamboni drivers, "Big Daddy" Bag-O-Scott
Hey Rob,
Nooo I didn' t think you were trying to piss me off. I didn't get pissed. I just furrowed my brow a bit and thought on it for a while.
LOL!!!!!!! Leash my Pastor!That's funny. He really doesn't bite, he is very passionate on issues he believes in.. sort of like I am... sort of like you are too. It's a good thing, I think.
No darlin', I didn't think you were trying to put me down. My pastor wasn't trying to put you down either.. he was just responding to my question. It wasn't until after I asked his permission to post the missive that I did it and it wasn't directed at you or anyone else. He said I could post it-- but he didn't say I could edit it, so I left it as it came from him to me. He wasn't trying to insult anyone. He was just answering my question.
I still can't help but think it's a tremendous stretch to believe that everything we know or ever have known has sprung from nothingness by coincidence. Doesn't that seem fantastic and unbelievable? You are quite right when you wwrite "by contrast, we have no facts, only the subjective heart, to tell us if such a being could exist."
"David's line, "Faith does not "exist" except in the sense that human beings give it life," was precisely among the points I was driving at."
I'm still wrestling with this one:
"Faith does not "exist" except in the sense that human beings give it life."
I don't argue this point at all... but it still exists no matter where it comes from... or who gives it life. And the belief that God does not exist is still faith based too isn't it?
If we were all to face nothing but concrete facts.. we'd have to all be agnostic.
Meantime, still friends?
Cindy
Bud,
He's lots of things but average ain't one of them. OH and in these parts calling someone a southern babtist is tantamount to calling him sonofabitch.. sooooo tread with care, pal o' mine.
:)
Cindy
Aw, not Entwistle!
I was never a big Who fan. I thought "Tommy" was overblown pop philosophy, and I never bought the idea of "Hope I die before I grow old." Hell, Townsend didn't even die before he went deaf.
But Entwistle represented an edgy, nasty look at the worst of humankind. Instead of pinball wizards, he wrote songs about voyeurs hiding in the garden, peering in the window; reasons to be glad you'll never see that girlfriend again; dirty old men, begging women not to call the cops. The best of his albums was called "Whistle Rymes." The others were "Smash Your Head Against the Wall," "Rigor Mortis Sets In" and "Mad Dog." Glorious cacophony, and lyrics with a Newmanesque edge. Geez, am I gonna miss him.
Scott, on another subject, just how long have you been running that old Zamboni, that you had to drop in a new transmission? Those things don't exactly roar along. Even my wife can outskate them.
>I don't celebrate ol' Saint Nick; I don't get Christmas trees; and I'm not going to start just because Everyone Else Is Doing It. <
Power to you, Zoe. But if and when you have children, unless you celebrate Chanukah, you're going to soon be viewed by your little ones as the neighborhood Grinch.
Sometimes we have to just, gosh, give our fearless and peerless rationalism a rest for the pleasures of childhood.
Todd,
Liberal blather? Huh? All I want to see in my lifetime is the stopping of the erosion of the Constitution's protections against the establishment of state religion.
Regards,
Joseph
To those I missed on my road trip - many apologies! Now I know, so if ever I head back that way, I'll atta- er, visit.
On the Pledge- Personally? If you believe in the Big Guy, that's great. If you don't, that's great. If you believe a rubber chicken is the Big Guy, more power to you. But in my opinion, forcing (yes yes, no one is forced to, unless you consider having a small child memorize and recite it every morning for several years 'force' [no no, you don't HAVE to say it, Johnny - but everyone else in the country does, why wouldn't you?]), forcing millions of others to say something that claims that they DO believe in that Big Rubber Chicken/God/whatever is a step behind brainwashing.
I personally don't recite the 'under God' part. Not so much because I don't believe in God (that changes now and then), but because I don't agree with it being in there. That started one day when I was at a basketball game and saw my parents omitting the two words - upon asking them why (I was maybe 9 or 10) I decided on my own that I didn't want to say it.
I've gotten grief about it, sure. Just like I've gotten grief about not bowing my head at invocations or prayers before dinners. It ain't my thang, so I ain't gonna do it.
Oh and by the way - Christmas as a _national_ holiday and not a religious one is a completely bogus belief. Probably started by the same folks who don't understand why a big deal is made by those who don't want to "do what everyone else is doing" insofar as the pledge. I don't celebrate ol' Saint Nick; I don't get Christmas trees; and I'm not going to start just because Everyone Else Is Doing It.
--My two cents
--Zoë Rose
Farewell, John Alec Enwistle...
My favourite rock and roll bassist; you will be sorely missed.
A bummed out Bag-O-Scott
Cindy,
"You argued against my point that atheists cannot difinitively say that God does not exist anymore than I (as a Christian) can difinitively say that he does. My proof is in my heart"
...and that's fine. Cindy, I wasn't trying to piss you off. So, keep a leash on your Pastor. I already got my ankle bit last week by an English 'Spaniel. That was enough.
Look: YOU had expressed the point, "Now, atheism I don't get because I don't think anyone can definitively say God doesn't exist any more than I can say difinitively that he does."
In response, I was trying to give you the angle of an Atheist (and at a damn late hour when I was ready to crash), that you could see how he might dismiss the existence of a deity. We have historical facts available to see (when we're willing to) where the aggregate beliefs began; by contrast, we have no facts, only the subjective heart, to tell us if such a being could exist.
I was speaking my mind, as were you, and no effort to put you down was being made. I would never want to put a nice person like YOU down. You had essentially asked a question and I was trying to give it to you as an Atheist would see it.
David's line, "Faith does not "exist" except in the sense that human beings give it life," was precisely among the points I was driving at.
Speaking of rotten churches, it always amazes me how everyone is so obsessive about the deep dark secrets of the FBI when the Vatican have more juicy little goodies buried in their closet than Willy Wonka's entire chocolate factory.
Were I to try and refute Cindy's pastor's screed, I suspect that I would be unable to prevent myself from dropping into exactly the kind of ranting lunatic that I hate to be (and which gives Rick reason to disconnect posting privileges).
I will adress a single point, without getting into personalities, however.
Science is NOT about answers. It's about questions. Yeah, science (as it then was) may have thought the Earth was flat, but the Church firmly believed that it was the center of the universe, too, and brow-beat one of the greatest scientists of the time into a grudging statement that it was in order to prevent enormous harrassment. But I digress.
Science asks a question. It then gathers data in order to reach a conclusion. More often than not, that data raises other questions. As more and more data is gathered, the conclusions reached become more and more refined.
So of course, the answers change over time. Our knowledge of the physical world changes, and the questions we ask change. Why should it - HOW could it - be otherwise?
"The science argument is bankrupt." Raised as a Southern Baptist, I've run into this type of blinkered, anti-intellectual pig-ignorance all my life. Cindy's pastor may be none of those, but he's evidently a lot more "average" than she thinks.
Just confirmed the rumor: John Entwistle, bassist for the Who, died of a heart attack today. He was 57.
SHIT.
Paging Dr. Freud: Any reason why in all the stoopid typos I make I typed the word 'laugh' in place of 'life' just now?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Must have something to do with my dick.
-TODD
The Pledge Discussion: Your friendly neighborhood conservative chimes in with his perspective.....
Who cares?
As with most liberal conceits, all this blathering (be it here, or in the media, or especially in the mind of Mr. Doctor. Whatever His Name Is whose true goal is his equally unimportant desire to remove "In God We Trust" from our money.....now THERE'S an important issue, huh?), as with most liberal conceits, all this blathering is just a bunch of bloaty wind for typical intellectual arguments that lead us nowhere important.
I'm not aiming at this board, mind you, so take only what offense you choose to take....I am aiming at the boring liberal screeching that makes Dr. San Francisco insist that is it so goddamn important that his child not hear the word "God" because Goddammit (oops) it just might melt her grey matter. It's about many of our college youths who grab onto whatever liberal cause there is available to sit and circle jerk over flavored over-milked coffee with their high falutin' intelligence on the ills of the world and how something like a stupid pledge that we did in kinnergarten and beyond is going to take down our rancid country because...because...because...fill in the blank.
Yes, discussion is fun. Argument is fun, especially intelligent argument. But big-ass whiney issues like this are so fucking unimportant in the great scheme of surviving in this world, that we need to see the light at the far end of the tunnel that says "OK, that was a good comment, and oh so smart of you, but let's please do something that actually works to make a single fucking American....or even someone in another part of this big wide world....live a better, happier life.
Under God. Not Under God. Fuck the pledge altogether. Let's say it doesn't get overturned. Let's say that the Democrats in congress don't play politics (ha, congress. no politics. Whatta concept) and don't worry about the upcoming elections (which is their true reason for embracing unity in their 'outrage.' Let's say that the pledge is kapoot.
So, is Dr. San Francisco Whatever Hisnameis Daughter's laugh any fucking different (other than having to learn, when she grows a mind of her own, that her daddy is a fucking kook who really needs to do something better with his dirty God-infested money than waste it on this pablum)? If yes, how?
Really. Not intellectually, how?
Thank you. And have a good evening.
-TODD
Whoopsie-daisy...
GUNTHER: Wrong? That's somewhere in the stratosphere.
FRANK: "The Green Goblin costume seemed like something some futuristic linebacker would wear."
You have to see it from a film narrative's POV. Spider-Man was easy; bitten by spider, voila! Spider-Man! But Norman Osborn was a corporate overlord. Why would he suddenly want to be a Goblin, AND Green to boot? The first logical answer would be a flight suit to go along with the glider; that clicks. The mask is a bit more difficult to rationalize. Personal demons from Halloween, maybe?
In the end, it was either the design seen in the movie or the old-fashioned purple tights and goofy hat. Me, I wouldn't have minded either way, but the general audience...pffft...
CINDY: Well, considering that everyone who has been even remotely CLOSE to Peter has suffered horribly, would he really be so anxious to get real personal with Mary Jane?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
GUNTHER: Wrong? That's somewhere in the stratosphere.
FRANK: "The Green Goblin costume seemed like something some futuristic linebacker would wear."
The thing is you have to see it from a film narrative. Spider-Man was easy; bitten by spider, voila! Spider-Man! But Norman Osborn was a corporate overlord. Why would he suddenly want to be a Goblin, AND Green to boot? The first logical answer would be a flight suit to go along with the glider; that clicks. The mask is a bit more difficult to rationalize. Personal demons from Halloween, maybe?
In the end, it was either the design seen in the movie or the old-fashioned purple tights and goofy hat. Me, I wouldn't have minded either way, but the general audience...pffft...
CINDY: Well, considering that everyone who has been even remotely CLOSE to Peter has suffered horribly, would he really be so anxious to get real personal with Mary Jane?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
(I forgot who mentioned it, but) damn right there are worse problems than the pledge discussion:
Help pledged for Africa: $1 billion
Money defrauded by WorldCon: $4 billion
Something about this is deeply wrong.
Just a little tidbit on the Pledge of Allegiance...
Until WWII, it was given with the ole Roman Salute...y'know, the ones the Nazis loved so much?
* sigh * Well, I suppose it's my turn to tackle the Christian beast here. Maybe that'll stave off some of the more rabid listmembers who share my point of view.
With regard to the remarks of Cindy's pastor:
> > "stream of consciousness" is for those who cannot or will not think
> >critically and logically.
That's a sweet dismissal of the opposition. "Stream of consciousness" no more describes the atheist opposition than the honorable Christian masses. I wouldn't easily ascribe logic or critical thinking to believers, either.
> >His arguments are nothing new and shouldn't
> >bother you at all. The statement, "God does not exist" is a faith
> >statement. Cannot be proven anymore than the corollary "God exists." Both
> >are faith statements.
Several of us have acknowledged this readily enough.
> >The interesting thing is that, given the existence
of
> >faith,
That should be: The creation of faith. Faith does not "exist" except in the sense that human beings give it life.
> >I tend to move closer to God existing than not existing.
But why should this be? Isn't it less logical to believe in and commit to Something rather than Nothing?
> >The science argument is bankrupt. That which science so rigorously
"proved"
> >one generation ago, is not contradicted. Remember, science maintained
that
> >the earth was flat.
Science evolves. Even certain Greeks intimated that the Earth might be round, after all. What kings and school systems and the common man make of science is not to be blamed upon science.
And let's not get into all the many things we could indict various religions for declaring in the past. Anyone up for burning a witch?
> >The argument from science is simply another form of
> >"look how brilliant I am... I don't need God."
I am sorry. I am not brilliant at all. I merely believe what I find myself capable of believing. God doesn't make the cut.
> >Well, bully for him.... I, however, do.
Which phraseology sounds very much to me like another "look how brilliant I am" statement. If you find your opposition supercilious or condescending, best not to climb down in the ditch with him.
> >I would also point out that there is a vast difference between Revelation
> >and Religion. Christianity is not a religion.... Christianity is a
> >Revelation. God showing (revealing) something about God's self and
humanity
> >responding.
But one must posit the existence of God first in order to accept that distinction. Which is like saying "you have to put up your $100,000 first, before I'll tell what you're investing in, and how it'll earn you money back."
> >Religion is an attempt to control (1) God and (2) my
> >environment through the control of God. Doesn't work. It is religion that
> >pisses most atheists off. I agree. Religion pisses me off.... Revelation
> >gives me a reason to live.... God loves me enough to die and rise for me.
> >That, is pretty cool.
I've never been able to figure out how that works, though. If God sacrificed Himself to save the world, how come it didn't get any better? And why should accepting Her into my heart, or acknowledging It as my God, or any of the other lines I've heard, matter more than living a good and just life in the world and not worrying about whether there's a Supreme Overseer on the premises?
Too many loose ends. Not enough logic that stands up to critical thinking. Too many visions of egotistical gods that too closely resemble their believers. Too many precepts that demand I give up some of my humanity or brain to belong.
Thanks, but I'll pass.
Anybody seen Sum of All Fears?
It's on at the Odeon this weekend. I'm dying to see it. Spiderman made it here finally last weekend. I was entertained but I thought the end sort of fell short. He is nutso about this girl from the get-go then he allows her to stand there weeping before him telling him that she loves him and he walks off? Maaaybe if he was a 40 year old man with enough life experience to overrule his heart and hormones... but this kid has had it for her in a HUGE way.. now he walks away with a smile? Nooooooooooooooooooo I don't think so.
Still I was entertained.
Celebrating this Pledge decision is a waste of time. It is sure to be overturned. The Senate said they will overturn it themselves. Can you believe this shit; the whole fucking Senate sucking up to the dulled masses, saying what an outrage the court decision was. You have these jerk-off fake liberals siding with the Conservative loons; basically because they know that the majority of the country believes in God and they want to be re-elected. Fuck the chickenshit Senate and fuck George W. Bush, for being such unconstitutional con artists. This decision was very smart, and it in no way infringes on someones right to believe in a deity. Throw all the bums out and start all over! What is this, Russia?
Personally, I wish the Pledge itself would be abolished because forcing "allegience" on someone is what they do in totalitarian countries. I have allegience to one thing, and one thing only: Total human liberty!
--------------
The Green Goblin costume seemed like something some futuristic linebacker would wear. But Spiderman as a movie sucked anyway, so big deal. I guess I will have to go see, Minority Report for the fourth time. Spielberg da man.
Okay Rob,
You argued against my point that atheists cannot difinitively say that God does not exist anymore than I (as a Christian) can difinitively say that he does. My proof is in my heart, it is all I need.But aside from my Christianity I look at the world and wonder how anyone can question the existence of a diety. What would be the odds everything forming and maintaining perfect order and balance by happenstance? Those would be my only arguments. In my certainty that they would not be enough to give you pause, or make you question your certainty I sought out the opinion of someone who might be able to articulate the matter better. Below I give you my Pastor's response to your post. He isn't your average Lutheran Pastor, he gives sermons on things like, " Don't think you're better than anyone else because you are a Christian" or " Why you are mistaken if you think homosexuals won't be in Heaven".
I post his response with his permission.
>"stream of consciousness" is for those who cannot or will not think
> >critically and logically. His arguments are nothing new and shouldn't
> >bother you at all. The statement, "God does not exist" is a faith
> >statement. Cannot be proven anymore than the corollary "God exists." Both
> >are faith statements. The interesting thing is that, given the existence
of
> >faith, I tend to move closer to God existing than not existing.
> >
> >The science argument is bankrupt. That which science so rigorously
"proved"
> >one generation ago, is not contradicted. Remember, science maintained
that
> >the earth was flat. The argument from science is simply another form of
> >"look how brilliant I am... I don't need God." Well, bully for him.... I,
> >however, do.
> >
> >I would also point out that there is a vast difference between Revelation
> >and Religion. Christianity is not a religion.... Christianity is a
> >Revelation. God showing (revealing) something about God's self and
humanity
> >responding. Religion is an attempt to control (1) God and (2) my
> >environment through the control of God. Doesn't work. It is religion that
> >pisses most atheists off. I agree. Religion pisses me off.... Revelation
> >gives me a reason to live.... God loves me enough to die and rise for me.
> >That, is pretty cool.
> >
> >LG
******************************
There you are. In closing I'd like to add that CEP was CORRECT! It IS personal. I don't try to inflict my beliefs on anyone else. I'm quietly Christian.
YET ANOTHER THING (Hey, give me a break--I've been gone for awhile):
Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I'm really looking forward to Soderbergh's SOLARIS. Yes, Tarkovsky's film was a classic, but it was hardly the definitive version of Lem's novel. Tarkovsky essentially ignored Lem's details of the morphology of Solaris, and concentrated instead on the psychological underpinnings of the characters. (And added his distinctive visual concerns to the mix: deliberately slow pacing, numerous shots of swirling water, and long, static takes of his actors, among others.) Nothing wrong with this approach, but it excluded the sense of Solaris's ALIENNESS that Lem worked so hard to convey.
Soderbergh may not be a great director, but he's demonstrated intelligence and versatility in his work so far, and I'm confident he'll pull this one off. (And damned if THE LIMEY doesn't get better with every viewing of it . . .)
Joseph -
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" - President George Washington, September 17th, 1796
An interesting page putting forth cases for and against the "Christian-ness" of the Founding Fathers: http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/founding_fathers_religion.HTM
Again, I don't bring up the subject to forward the notion that I believe America is a Christian nation. It ain't. If ever it was, it ain't now. Never will be again. Do I believe we need "God" in some form? Sure, like we need our Living Elvis and our reliable fast food joint, a warm blanket in November and that first magical kiss in the back of a sedan. Whatever gets you through the night, baby...
ONE MORE THING:
How can I put this nicely? How can I put this in a way that will not offend? How can I properly sheathe this in phrases of crushed velvet and vicuna? How can I . . . oh, fuckit:
CAN WE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP WITH THE "I'VE SEARCHED MY HEART AND HAVE DECIDED THAT I WILL NEVER POST TO WEBDERLAND AGAIN AS LONG AS I LIVE SO HELP ME GAHD"? If I had a dime for each person who posted that, only to eventually return, I'd have, er, well, fifty or sixty cents. If you want to post, then post. If you don't want to post, then don't post. Rick Wyatt is not going to come to your house, drag you screaming into the street, and brand your forehead with the Smoking E in full view of the neighbors if you fail to make your daily contribution to the cybernetic weal. I love this place and all, but Jeez Louise. This. Is. Just. A. Message. Board.
(Sorry, Rich. I'm not trying to single you out, ok?)
All pipe bombs should be addressed to...
Venkman,
So who said they were principled athiests? I referred to the foudners as Deists. Closest equivalant these days would be Congregationalists.
And my apologies, I was responding to Eric with the holidays reference. My bad.
Regards,
Joseph
Ever drop a transmission into a Zamboni? What fun...
Cindy: I'll not get into a discussion of how atheists are made today; not that I don't want to discuss the issue, but if I'd gotten into it, along with the comment I'm making below, would create a post whose length and breath would problably bring about the entire crash of the Internet, and subsequent end to civilization. Moreover, I wouldn't have time to eat my lunch. I'd like to put it aside for the nonce, and return to it when I'm sure that Sun and Microsoft have constructed stong enough firewalls, and I've finished Mel's delicious pasta salad. She makes the noodles herself, you know...
Ah, back to the Pledge debate. Another nonsenical, irrelevant chore of ritual, designed to make us believe that if we chant the words as some form of democratic mantra that justice, peace and freedom shall sweep across our land. Invocation shall bring about people having better, more satisfying sex; our children will grow up without rickets, their pearlies shiny, white and straight, and when we break wind, it'll smell like rose scent poupourri...
Would omitting the words "Under God" make the oath lose any efficacy, any potency it might have?
What hits me today as I sit on a break perusing the papers and listening to American stations on the shortwave (I keep one and bring it to work on occasion, as counterbalance to Canadian journalism), I'm struck by the headlong rush of the politicians from both sides of the political aisle in their frantic attempts to one-up each other on their level of righteous indignation at this court's decision. Even better, how they posture the other's party's responsibility in appointing the jurist who would make such a horrific assertion. How quickly they rushed to vote a declaration denouncing the verdict, as if allowing this issue to stand unchallenged would cause massive chasms to open in the earth under the US, swallowing up whole cities; the fire and brimstone of God's wrath hurtling down from heaven as retribution for the insult to the American deity...
These legislators, who are regularily bought and sold by corporations and lobbyists to the point where government becomes the protector of their right to profit, over the rights of people to be protected from corporate exploitation. Senators and Congressman, who bow to the religious minority to a degree that they accept the invocation of a hateful, self-righteous god as posited by Falwell or Robertson, against the rights of gays to live in peace as they wish, or those who wanted stem-cell research to continue so that they'd have a chance to live fairly normal lives, if life at all.
As I've said prior, and others have echoed the sentiment, words do not a country make. What chills me most is in this posturing that this salient point is already being lost by both the politic and the media, that the sensation this minor decision created overcomes good judgment on the issue of American democracy. You have a country governed by people who will happily sell your freedom, hell, your financial and physical safety down the river to guarantee their own as servants and partners with those who pursue profit to the exclusion of any other value or virtue, and nobody within either government or the media will address how meager this argument is, that this is simply a fart in a hurricane?
Just one of those things that makes me smile, and shake my head a bit sadly.
With that, back to the mines, but first, to finish off my atomic toll house cookies. Delicious artery clogging fun.
Oreeoes?! We don't neeed no steenkeeing Oreeoes!
The Bag-Of-Scott: The terror causing Jesse Helms to resign.
Oh those CNN bumpers are annoying...
Joseph.
Lots of Faiths were involved in the foundation of the nation. It would be nice to imagine the Founding Fathers as pricipled atheists, but they were politicians. The revolution split the loyalties of those who were, by nature, pacifists or loyal to the Church of England. Like politicians today who take Faith in God as a page out of the standard playbook in winning elections, they had to sway a nation of people whose sole reason for being in America was to practice religion. Yeah, they didn't want the C of E, but they certainly weren't atheists, Muslims, Hindu..they were of the Christian wing of God's Mansion.
I have to admit, I briefly joined in with the chortling over the 9th Court's decision. The "Under God" addition to the Pledge was such a clear attempt to subvert Separation of Church and State, that declaring it unconstitutional was logical, inevitable, and, quite frankly, a no-brainer. Even if the Pledge's mention of God has become so rote as to render it meaningless, it doesn't change the basic fact that a profession of religious faith is required of students on a daily basis. As one of the judges pointed out, deciding whether or not to say "Under God" amounts to a political decision between submission and protest--and that's a hell of a thing to put on a child in the name of "values."
BUT. . . Alex is right: the 9th Court's decision WILL be overturned at some future date, so all the high-fives and back-slapping are premature, and even a little short-sighted. The Supreme Court (the final arbiters in this matter) have made it clear with THEIR decision that they consider Separation of Church and State to be a hollow phrase. While the nation goes apeshit over the Pledge, the Supremes quietly gut public education. Does anyone else have a problem with this?
I have to say, as a confirmed Agnostic/Non-Monotheist, that the mentions of God--whether in the Pledge, on our money, even in our Constitution--have never really bothered me much. If people want to reduce the concept of the Allmighty to the mundane by repitition and overexposure, hey, more power to them. This is, like it or not, a Judeo-Christian society, and though our politicians give lip service to the Church-State exclusion, the relationship between the Christian majority and everyone else has always, at heart, been a Melian Dialogue. THEY have the power, and to suggest that God should be excluded from public policy causes grave offense on their part. All I'm saying is, removing ALL mentions of a Deity from public discourse will be a bloody, divisive battle, and may be more trouble than it's worth. Personally, I think there are more important battles to be fought, and better uses for our passion and our intellect. Though freedom FROM religion is a worthy goal, it's not worth fighting the Battle of Verdun over. (Or the Battle of Masada, he cynically notes.)
DAVID: The Papp production with Jones is available on DVD--I saw a copy on the shelves of my local Borders only last night.
I care not for messing wit'cho holidays. Perhaps you're referring to Eric's post? :)
>To Eric Martin: I'd be happy with _all_ of those changes.<
Brian, if you're ready to rename Santa Claus, I'm eager to hear what you propose as the new, inoffensive to everyone moniker.
Or maybe you'd just do away with Christmas as a national holiday altogether? Lose Santa, and his accompanying myths and marketability, for some brave new world where religion's influence on culture is completely marginalized?
Cindy, I wasn't picking on you in particular. Fifty of ANYONE in a room makes me nervous. I've seen mob psychology in action, and it is extremely dangerous. Even 50 pacifists in the room can come up with some bloodcurdling retributive proposals, and start pushing them--even when they're all in the nature of "passive resistance."
And that is why, for me, the only acceptable "faith" is one that is personal. It's all well and good to seek guidance from those who have studied doctrine, but it is not all well and good to allow them to do one's thinking on the matter.
Our bold, 'sageful' President: "We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God."
I think he's the relief pitcher for that early hominid I mentioned.
While everybody's obsessing over a 9th Circuit decision that will be reversed as soon as the full Circuit Court hears it, the real Supreme Court just made a decision that's going to tear down the wall between church and state and, possibly, destroy the public school system in some states. Cleveland's voucher program just crept through, on a 5-4 vote.
Mind you, the program is an abysmal failure. The "voucher academies" founded to take advantage of the vouchers have a proficiency test passage rate of zero. Yes, seriously. Students who used the vouchers to go to the parochial schools have averaged about the same scores they achieved while in the public schools. In other words: the experiment, now legal, didn't work.
I predict Ohio will quadruple voucher funds next year.
I think we're seeing the beginning of the end of public education.
--Alex
Hey, Mitch: Is the Vasa dry now? For the uninitiated, the Vasa was a magnificent wooden Viking ship that promptly sank in the Stockholm harbor on its maiden voyage, if I remember correctly. When my family took me to see it more than 30 years ago, it had only recently been raised from the muck and had sprinklers all over it, keeping it wet so it wouldn't disintegrate from a sudden exposure to air. The plan was to wean it away from water slowly, and I think that has happened, but Mitch can confirm.
The truly memorable thing about our visit to the Vasa, I have to say, was that we ran into somebody from our home town of Eugene, Oregon at the museum!
Cindy asked how someone could be certain about God not existing, which is just as unsupportable as certainty about Her existence. You're quite right, Cindy. In a perfectly rational world, we would all be agnostic. But it's obviously an emotional decision: I "know" in my heart that there is no God (at least out there; I have no problem discussing other people's conceptions with them).
When you look at all the crazy things other people believe, it's a warning not to underestimate your own capacity for self-delusion.
I don't celebrate the Ninth Court of Appeals decision (although I chortled), because it'll be overturned, one way or another. It's just another entertainment that diverts us from the REAL problems and issues.
In a perfect world, I wouldn't have "under God" (do all those rabid Protestant Christians out there know that it was lobbied in by the Knights of Columbus in 1954, pretty much to distinguish us from them godless Commies?) OR the Pledge, but I have to say as a congenital atheist it never bothered me much. Sometimes I recited it whole, sometimes I dropped the "under God," sometimes I just stood in silence ... but most of those decisions didn't come until high school. Before that, I just parroted it like all the believers because it meant nothing to any of us.
That's what's so awful about it. It's a meaningless ritual that no one can explain, yet so many people get "het up" about. (Do the nuts who want to put prayer "back" in the schools realize this is one great way to kill the meaningfulness of prayer?) I can't recall anyone ever discussing the meaning and import of the Pledge in school, which might have been interesting. When I pledge allegiance to the flag (and for good old Richard Stands), does that mean I'll go off to fight in a distant war over communism or oil when my government bids me...?
Rich's comments about the plaintiff in this case (and his relationship with his daughter) struck me as pointed. Whether or not her school and classmates are cool about her participation or non-participation in the Pledge, he is perforce singling her out for public attention at a tender age, and committing her to a course of activism that she might not have chosen for herself and will either have to carry on or embarrass herself by giving up at some point. (Think of all the fuss made over Madalyn O'Hare's son when he became a Christian.)
That guy sounds no different to me from a Christian fundamentalist zealot. Like Kevorkian, he's got the right cause, but he's going about it the wrong way. We all have to find a way to get along, one way or another, and if he wants to tilt at windmills, more power to him, but the way he drags a small kid into his crusade makes me anxious for her.
Finally, HE touted Lear as his favorite. It has been my favorite for most of my life, too, but I was hesitant to say so, for some reason. Maybe because it seems more like an epic, a monstrous Gargantua, than a mere "play."
I wrote two huge papers on Lear in college -- one about the themes of sight and seeing/blindness, and one about attitudes toward the gods, speak of the devil (so to speak) -- and I've always wanted to act the Fool in a production (the only Shakespeare I've gotten to do on the boards was Benvolio, which was fun because I got to fight with Tybalt).
Oddly enough, I taped the recent airing of the celebrated Ian Holm Lear but haven't taken the time to watch it yet. And I haven't seen the 1980s BBC production that starred Olivier (hell, Diana Rigg is in it -- that should be reason enough for anyone!). But I remember many others with fondness. (Once again: Has anyone run across a video copy of the Joseph Papp production with James Earl Jones? The rest of the cast was incredibly strong, and the fight between Edgar and Edmund was genuinely hair-raising!)
Rich's comments caused me to remember seeing Michael Newdow interviewed on the O'Reilly Factor on FOX a while back. Leading up to the segment my thoughts were "Good cause" but after the interview I thought that he was cruelly using his daughter for his own designs. O'Reilly is a rude reactionary pitbull, and I took that into account, and the fact that Newdow's an amateur on teevee who played right into his hands. But he is heaping a great responsibility upon the shoulders of his child.
R.Wilder
Ok. I'm a liar. I said I would not post to the website anymore and now...(Im currently doing the Al Pacino scene in Godfather 3; you know the one. don't make me say it). No excuses, no rationalizations, but upon hearing of the recent decision regarding the Pledge of Allegiance, I couldn't help myself. I read the board. And, ignoring the advice of family and friends, my doctor, and the voices in my head, I offer the following:
My concerns with the Pledge have more to do with my discomfort of state-sanctioned "oaths" than any real religious/state separation conviction (though, I think Rob is right-on with his "desensitized" argument, says the desensitized Rich) and my contrarian nature immediately kicked into overdrive upon hearing the opinion of the "average" person and (apparently) every one of our politicians who say the court ruling is wrong, though it obviously is not wrong (there is no logical or constitutional defense for the statement being in the pledge), but I haven't seen this mentioned and I must say this:
(---DIGRESSION: Is that legal? To end a paragraph with a colon? Twice? I'm breaking something here. Nevermind the run-on sentence. Oh, well. Where was I...?---)
I'm a bit taken aback at Michael Newdow's reasons for bringing up the case and I'm wondering what his daughter thinks. She didn't have a problem with the pledge, he did. Now, I think what he did is right and I agree with him. However, it seems to me that his daughter will now be the one fighting for his cause, and we don't even know if she cares that much about it or not. I guess it would be one thing if his daughter came home and said she had a problem with reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, but she didn't. And now, thanks to the publicity and her father's statements, she will now be expected to carry on his fight in her public school. She will have to bear the scrutiny and unreasonable reaction from her classmates and I think her dad is so convinced of the rightness of his actions that he will go forward no matter the cost.
And that's what we're supposed to do, right? Do the right thing? Stand up for what we believe in? I hope his daughter is willing to go the distance, and maybe she is (though, Newdow's comments indicate otherwise), but at what point do we do the right thing or try to buck the system while others have to endure the price for what we do? Was it in "Becket" that asked about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons? I'm uncomfortable with Newdow's reasons for bringing the suit and I sincerely hope his daughter agrees with him.
To Eric Martin: I'd be happy with _all_ of those changes.
I have no objection to the words "In God we Trust" on currency-- so long as it's written on it by the handler, and NOT stamped onto it by the government.
I'm continually amazed at how sensitive and fragile the faithful are. They're happy when their holidays affect global economic trends, when national leaders profess fealty to their doctrines, when schoolchildren are told to pledge allegiance "under God," and even when our currency screams its trust to a nonexistent Almighty.
You'd think they could deal with a secular Pledge of Allegiance. Nope. Suddenly it's this gigantic controversy, this usurping of traditions, this Godawful desecration.
Venkman,
Why would I want to interfere with religious holidays? That's somebody else's business, and properly protected by the Bill of Rights. Besides, their fun. Now government funds being used to promote those holidays (for instance, creches & menorahs in city halls) is a violation. Don't read something into my message that wasn't there, Venkman.
Regards,
Joseph
>Removal of "In God We Trust" from money? HERE WE COME.<
Better pull the word "Christ" out of Christmas, since it's a public holiday, and we can't have tax-supported Christian verbiage.
Better pull the word "Mas" out of it too, since it's short for Mass, which is a Christian ceremony, and when Bush lights the White House Christmas tree, we can't offend anyone.
Last I looked, the word "Santa" was a modified form of "Saint." That's a Christian term, fellows...better just call him Claus. Of course, Claus is German, which as we've seen on this board is still a culture that gives some people pause, so maybe we better change that too. Rudolph too...man, the whole North Pole is filled with Krauts.
Valentine was a saint too. So was Patrick. The Pilgrims were seriously Christian, and Halloween has something to offend everyone.
You got your work cut out for you. Here's to Arbor Day.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it
stands,one Nation under GOD, indivisible,with Liberty and justice for all.
Unless you live in the 9th district appeals court jurisdiction then the above does not apply!
Cindy,
"Now, atheism I don't get because I don't think anyone can definitively say God doesn't exist any more than I can say difinitively that he does."
While I'm holding ice on my hand from the fiver Joseph gave me I'll try to convey a pov here: as God is but a concept - the reason it varies all over the world - it CAN be said in definite terms no such being exists.
I haven't the energy to get into a heavy, ordered epistemological thesis now. I'd like to respond in this stream-of-consciousness manner: science deals with the pursuit of knowledge through a body of facts to prove the operation of general laws. For this process to work it cannot presume. It postulates and tests. Religion, on the other hand, presumes...and HOPES...no, not EVEN hopes...it concludes...then tends to impose its self-assuring canons on others.
No tangible evidence exists showing even the likelihood of a "convenient" or divine super-being here, "out there", or anywhere. There may BE some Star Trek-style energy-beings in some galaxy light years beyond anything the Hubble could hope to pick up for all we know; maybe we're even being watched. None of that I believe nor disbelieve. There simply are no facts to follow that would give us any reason at this time to consider the possibility.
But RELIGION - sustaining a faith its central purpose, and varied in its doctrines all over the world - DOES, indeed, have facts from which we can draw conclusions: every faith has a history (almost always a bloody one) tracing back thousands (in some cases only hundreds) of years to a primitive people who had no way of understanding what was going on around them. They didn't even know what the hell they were walking on. They would build a complex philosophy with a moral bind around what little they could perceive. Reinforced by political control of both church and state (quite abusively), those doctrines would be handed down generations, thereby cementing themselves in cultures over eons. Whatever beings or being they decided should be worshipped, they are entirely man-made as every page of the Bible is, and, I should add, is the reason they are so spotted with hypocrisy.
I'm convinced the agent that's fueled the need to believe more than any other is the concept of mortality; a high price for self-awarness and a rotten trick nature pulled on us. To go through life only to have oblivion take us back is too much for us to accept. Yet, the only evidence that really exists supports precisely that.
Experiences of my own reinforced a profound understanding of how the brain creates its own reality; it compensates almost by reflex for what facts it doesn't have (and feeds so voraciously on whatever it was stoked in its infant years). I'm inferring the brain cannot be entirely trusted. It is no wonder some early hominid emerged from his cave, gazed at the sun and perceived it among the few things on Earth he could not conquer and must surely, therefore, be respected, perhaps even worshipped. Many hominids would do precisely the latter. In many respects we know no more than that simple hominid did...with comparable reactions.
If I ever have a kid I'm going to make sure he/she experiences the fantasy of Santa Clause; when he/she is old enough and it's time for me to break the sad news there is no such being I will stress how REAL it seemed even though no formal intro took place. It's great to use as a lesson. You don't have to see anything for it to be "real"; and when you have faith it's real you don't even need a confirmation. This is a subjective trait I would want my kid to remember.
We have the capacity of reason; but to exercise that mechanism we have to ask questions. FEAR blocks the desire to exercise that mechanism. (For the record, I play a game with myself occasionally, following my memories back as far as I can; to the day I was born if I could. Then I think about years I wasn't here; people who populated an Earth I never inhabited. What was it like to "not" exist? A quiet blackness; an embracing oblivion. I actually don't remember minding it! It's no different on the other end). One would prefer to BELIEVE, not KNOW; and anything that could threaten, i.e., disprove one's belief is to be eluded...or maybe even removed.
Venkman,
The United States of America was founded by Deists and followers of the Enlightenment, not Christians. Take a look at the founding father somedays - the vast majority of them had an abhorrence of the idea of religion having any place in politics. As should we all.
Anyway, like I give a fuck what religion the Founding Fathers were. I'm sure as hell not professing belief or allegiance to their god in my daily life. Perhaps I should care what religion Galileo or Halley were in deciding whether to follow the laws of physics? Fuck no. In the same sense, I don't care what religion Adams and Jefferson were in deciding to follow their rationalist thought. And that includes a strict non-establishment of a state religion.
God bless today. it's the beginning of the end for the minor uprising of the Christian Republicans in trying to impose their petty little prejudices on the rest of us. Removal of "In God We Trust" from money? HERE WE COME.
Regards,
Joseph
I Pledge Allegiance to Doc Savage's Oath...
JON,
IT ROCKS. Absolutely kicks ass.
Cindy
The Doc Savage Oath: "Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend all my assistance to those who need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man."
Make that "no one", "no person" or add "or woman" in the last line, and you've got a great non-denominational, gender-inclusive oath, guys.
Jon
Cookie,
Thanks for the answer.. I get it.
:)
VENKMAN,
What you wrote made sense too, I guess that's standard for most young people. That's probably why the scene in Peggy Sue Got Married made me laugh and wonder. When Peggy Sue recites the Pledge of Allegiance the kids in the room are all as "into it" as you express being. I love that scene because Peggy Sue's nostalgia induced patriotic verve is so in contrast with the deadpan delivery of the rest of the class.
Cindy
As a Canadian in all seriousness, I'd suggest that the U.S. adopt the Doc Savage Oath as its new Pledge of Allegiance. Heck, I'd back any country that adopted the Doc Savage Oath, especially if it meant that sylphium pills were offered to everyone free of charge and the Commander-in-Chief could actually play a difficult musical instrument well enough to wow people from on stage, and not simply on MTV. An ape-like vice-president covered in red bristles would probably be cool, too. Monk wouldn't be hiding in no secret location! He'd be busting heads, whistling at the ladies, and playing pranks on Attorney General Ham Brooks!
Well I'll be superamalmagated!
Jon
Oh, okay...if you want to feel refreshed on the power of the Pledge...here's Red Skleton...
http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html
Two bottom lines...good job editing tonight, huh? Shessh
Growing up, the Pledge of Allegiance was mandatory, performed every morning. I did this for 12 years. What I learned from this was that a Pledge means absolute dog shit zero.
The bottom line is, no one is listening. You don't get graded. You don't get a medal. You don't feel like a better citizen for saying it. In my case, you'd get detention for not saying it.
I am an American. I don't need to make a Pledge to express my loyalty and it means less-than-nothing to do so every friggin morning. "Just a reminder to everyone else taking this pledge: I'm right with you, guys! Day 634 and I'm just as Red White and Blue as I was yesterday at this time!"
By high school, the morning PoA sounds like this: "I pleguleegenz toth'flagoftheunidedstadovamerica..." Remember that Star Trek episode with the Yangs and the Comms? So far removed from the intent that the ritual recitation becomes a mumble of bullshit with no meaning. Leave that shit for Nazis and fanatics who are so fucking paranoid about keeping the rank and file in line they require daily affirmations of loyalty along with the ritual beatings.
And do I give a shit it's under God? Go ahead: Ask me.
:)
Now, the bottom line is that Congress has a chaplain. It starts the day with prayer. We swear oaths on Bibles in court. The country was founded by Christians and, despite its efforts to appear otherwise, it remains that way with some inroads from other faiths being paved slowly into the Judeo-Christian environment. We piss and moan about the split of Church and State when CHURCH is a huge part of the STATE. Public morality dictates law at every level. We decide what we should and shouldn't do by turning our beliefs into legislation. Somewhere somehow, our FAITH is at work here, overriding logic or reason when we elect our leaders, tell them how to vote, conduct ourselves socially and politically...all these things politics come from some appeal to laws set down by our clergy or our culture.
The government - being by, of, and for the people - cannot be without Faith. Sadly, it sticks to the old Jesus Club before anything else. It's hard enough figuring out WHICH of the countless factions of Christianity to buy into without taking into account those who actually believe something different.
So it's a 2-party system of 600 Judeo-Christian divisions and a handful of "other" faiths. Congress ain't made of Atheists.
A brief travelogue:
Stockholm is beautiful! The city includes several islands, so there's water water everywhere. My friend Justin (no, not that one) and I stayed on a boat that was converted to a hostel, and moored in the center of town. The people are friendly, and speak English fluently. [guy] Hot women with great racks EVERYWHERE [/guy]. There's a terrific museum built around a restored 17th-century warship (The Vasa). During our stay, Sweden tied Argentina to move forward in the World Cup race. We saw it in a crowded bar, and I never had so much fun watching sports.
England was a unique vacation experience. Justin's friend Nicole lives in Cambridge, and we crashed at her boyfriend Peter's flat in London. We saw a few sights (Big Ben, Harrod's, St James Park), but we spent alot of time hanging out with Peter's crowd, and seeing London from a native's POV. Most of this involved meeting people over drinks. I found some Italian cuisine I'd never heard of before (what's that tuna/white bean/onion salad called?), and discovered how good Cornish pasties can be when you're drunk and noshy. We watched England trounce Denmark. A trend started to emerge.
Brussels has a very old-world feel. Narrow cobblestone streets wind between weathered buildings. The people are more French-influenced that Dutch, but there's a strong sense of multiculturalism. Restaurants cover the sidewalks with tables; cars are impeded by the foot traffic. The Museum of Musical Instruments hands out headphones to visitors. When you stand in front of a display, you hear the music it would have played. Unfortunately, the James Ensor exhibit I wanted to see was closed. I was introduced to a fine cherry-flavored beer called kriek. We were still en route to Belgium when they lost to Brazil. The trend was now confirmed.
Mitch
Cindy: you asked about my political reason for not reciting the pledge. I became troubled by the words "under God" because the word God is a loaded one. Whose God? Some people won't even say the word G_d. Are we talking Allah? Are we talking Jah? What about multiple gods? What about goddesses? What about Orishas? You get the idea. I can understand the atheist argument about this point. Many fine citizens don't believe in "God."
I also had a problem with the words "with liberty and justice for all" because I don't feel that we have liberty and justice for all. We have liberty and justice for those with enough support, money, and/or smarts to work the system to their advantage. It's a nice ideal and one for which I feel we can and should strive, but in the pledge it is stated as fact.
I stand to show respect for my country and for those who recite the pledge. I do not cover my heart to emphasize that I am not participating in the pledge verbally or physically. The reason I do this is because I have the freedom to do so. I believe that daily recitation of something like the pledge becomes an autopilot ritual rather than a meaningful expression of true patriotism.
That's all. :)
What a pack of GENTLEMEN you all are.
Your kindness is amazing given the volatile nature of my missive.
I love a good argument and y'all have provided plenty of them.
First I would have to agree that to make a child feel different at a time when being one of many is so important IS not acceptable.
When I think about it dispassionately I see the reason for my own visceral reaction is superstition. It's very embarrassing to admit but I see it now, I believe it's linked to a fear of pissing God off that goes back to my religious instruction from the time I was a child.
God forbid we piss God off. Leave God out of the Pledge of Allegiance and you're ASKING for him to turn his back on this whole country.
THERE! I said it! That's what I'm afraid of!
It doesn't look right when I read it in print that way... it seems, well, it IS ignorant. The notion that God would get angry to the point of washing his hands of us... just because we left his name out of the Pledge of Allegiance is actually absurd. Just HOW important is that Pledge of Allegiance to God? Hmmmm important enough to place it over the feelings of one of his children? Would a vanity tag in a political pledge be more important to God than the embarrassment and humiliation of a little child? OOOOOOO.... should it be more important to ME as A Christian THAN THE FEELINGS OF A CHILD????
Well, that certainly puts me in MY spot.
I suppose my suggestion that atheists be 'cool' when "Under God" is spoken in the pledge comes from that same place. Be cool when we say it in case what we were taught is right. You have nothing to lose by allowing this small concession it's just insurance.. think of it as insurance. That's where it came from.
Y'all make me think. I guess that's why I threw that out there. I knew it would not be taken at face value without comment. Too much at stake here.
No. Religious persecution on any scale should not be tolerated.
Now, atheism I don't get because I don't think anyone can definitively say God doesn't exist any more than I can say difinitively that he does. It's up for grabs... the only rational stance would be agnosticism, because nobody knows for sure. But no, Scott, pal o' mine, I don't EVER want you to stop with your speculations and arguments to counter my beliefs, I embrace our differences and feel that my faith is personal to me and not a requirement for anyone I care about. Your arguments fascinate me and clearly make me think-- which is always a good thing.
I have to say I love all of you, for your kindness and your tolerance... uhmmm CEP I don't think 50 of ME in a room would make you nervous. I'm really not what you think...I'm just Cindy.
I have worlds of faith but I don't know much for certain, and I definitely don't believe that my way is the only right way to anywhere.
I don't think God's name is really "God" either, I think he's called different things by different people so Mohammed, Vishnu, Buddha or Elohim, he answers all of his children.
Thanks again, all of you for being so gentle with me on such a touchy subject.
Cindy
Rob,
We've had our differences in the pat, God/I know, but here's a high five. God bless separation of Church and State!
Regards,
Joseph
Cindy,
"I don't think the phrase " Under God" should be removed...If you don't believe in God you should be cool about it."
I am by no means equating you with Maude Flanders (let me know if I should) but...I know that you know that I know that you know the problems in your argument.
By the SAME argument we should be able to post the Ten Commandments in the schools without anyone spassing over it.
By the SAME argument, if one can ask Atheists to put up with it, the reverse is true: those who DO believe in God or some deity should be able to handle it WITHOUT "under God" in the pledge.
We're desensitized by the subtle presence of the phrase because it's been bobbing there for so long; but it really is as constitutionally imposing as any of the church v. state controversies like prayer in school or posted injunctions of a temperamental deity. Bad enough I felt like I was being brainwashed when I was a kid getting up to pledge. The fact those words were plugged in during the McCarthy era says something about it to ME.
Side Item To All:
The news was just interviewing an enraged wild fire victim who'd lost his home (he has the suspicious look of a red-neck). Though I truly sympathize with his loss I have to roll in amusement about his theories as to who should be blamed for all this: it's those goddamn environmentalists! Had they allowed the logging industry to do their job none of this would've happened. Get RID of all the trees and forests and you don't HAVE fires!
I loves it.
There are days you're not sure you'll ever see. Today is one of them. Can we declare today "Separation of Church and State Day"?
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Throw confetti in the air and celebrate!
Love,
Joseph
The whole notion of pledging allegiance to a flag seems uniquely American. Maybe it was our preferred substitute to pledging troth to some king or dictator. In Morocco the picture of the King is everywhere, in every shop, restaurant, and home. I prefer a flag, myself.
Does any other country engage in the daily schooltime ritual of saluting and chanting devotion to their flag? Or does any other country have songs like "You're a Grand Old Flag," "Stars and Stripes Forever," or a national anthem that is about their flag?
Back during the flag-desecration flapdoodle, I asked a French friend what his country's reaction would be if the French flag was used as a doormat in an art exhibit (then the hot issue of the day). He couldn't even answer the question, because he couldn't imagine anyone in France doing it. SO I said what if someone burned the French flag in the streets of Paris. Again, he had a hard time envisioning anyone bothering to do this, but decided that if they did, they'd just be ignored as weirdoes.
Guess the French don't have a star-spangled banner...
HARLAN: Received my package today - thank you dearly. Also love the Diamond Dialogue issue you threw in. The more I read of Peter David, the more I can't get enough of him.
Off-topic for a moment:
I had an 'experience' today. For my summer job I work at a five-star hotel. No big building, just a series of cottages. I was working in the heat when I suddenly got a piercing headache from staring at too many white roofs that glared like supernovas under the sun. I was looking for some shade to clear my throbbing skull when the minute I turned a corner on the main road I saw a portly man on a moped (a Bermudian motorcycle) turn violently over while on a curve. He slammed right into the road (that's the only appropriate word I could think of) and luckily came immediately to a halt. I was about ten feet away when this happened. I could hear him cursing a blue streak, he was clearly pinned under the moped, and yet for a few seconds I could only stand there gaping like a numbskull. I'm not sure why I didn't move sooner - maybe flashbacks from Ray Bradbury's THE CROWD kept holding me back. I didn't want to be a ghoul, yet I was being useless at the same time. As I said, this only lasted a few seconds. I snapped out of it and hurried over to him.
"You all right?" I asked. Yes, I know that was dumb, but the question has become instinctive to the human race. I moved to take the moped off him, just as he said, "Get it off me." I got the bike off, and he stood well enough. Some road rash, scratches and scraps, but otherwise he looked all right. Then he said his finger was dislocated, and probably his wrist too. By that time another fellow had arrived and taken him off to the main house. A few minutes later I was walking by the entrance to the resort and saw two ambulance vans present.
The guy's going to be fine, I know that much for certain. What unnerved me was my very first reaction to seeing him bashed against the road like a ton of bricks. There's simply no way to predict how you would behave in a sudden violent situation like that. It reminds me a little of WAGES OF FEAR, where sevreal individuals go through a powerful personality change in light of their terrifying predicament. I'm still slightly creeped out by the fact that I stood there like a git for a moment, when seconds can be absolutely precious.
So, that's it. My 'experience' for the day.
Oh, and my favourite Bard will always be Lear. It was my first Shakespeare, and it will always be the best in my eyes.
Cindianajones, I must gently disagree with you. I would ordinarily do so in language more akin to that one expects from Our Sponsor. I will not, because perhaps you just haven't experienced what I have (I sure hope not!).
I was stationed in England when the fatwa was issued against Salman Rushdie. I got to see the ugliness up close (one of my people lived in Bradford). I also got to see Inniskillen (I may have that spelling wrong). Need I mention anything else?
Frankly, the wall between church and state isn't high enough. Faith is a personal issue. As soon as it is allowed to become established, let alone Established, as an acceptable means of determining who is (and isn't) cool--and this is regardless of how the various lines shake out--it is nothing more than an excuse for excluding of The Other. I have been cursed as a "f&*)(^g Christ-killer" for the sin of asking directions to a synagogue of someone working for the Chamber of Commerce. My "real" job on active duty involved dealing with one of the three ugliest current situations on this planet--one that revolves around misuse of religious hierarchy and dogma for political advantage.
The easy solution to the whole problem is to remove the phrase from the Pledge. Then all we have to worry about is Gobitis--a very real situation that WILL happen again in the very near future. (Just ask Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell about those "godless" Jehovah's Witnesses--and yes, that is a quote.)
If we err, it needs to be in the other direction. Not hostility to faith, which is a personal matter. But hostility to any attempt to allow faith to influence governance. (I still question the propriety of having a Senate Chaplain, but I digress.) You're free to disagree. You're not free, however, to impose a formula upon my children that gives them an unacceptable choice: either refuse to say the Pledge at all, implying that they're not "loyal 'murikans," or saying a pledge that intertwines religion and politics, which is worse.
I do not doubt that you, individually, Cindy, are much more tolerant. Put fifty of you in a room, and I'd start getting nervous.
Cindy:
As an atheist, I'm largely in agreement with you on the issue of the declaration of the Pledge being unconstitutional, but not based on the circumstance of the question of the phrase "under God". Granted, it seems somewhat spurious, they are just words after all. Patriotism isn't born out of words; it's born from action, the deed outweighs the word.
Where I start to have trouble is your comment:
"If you don't believe in God you should be cool about it."
Now, I interpret that to mean that those who feel that some form of supreme being doesn't exist should remain silent, and not expound their views of how man came to be, or how he is? That because, as you suggest, the majority believes in some for of deity, I and others like me have to remain silent in our views, and not have them accepted equally as yours are? I acknowledge your assertion of the majority believing in some form of deity, but that doesn't mean one exists, and I can't recall anyone having proved it definitively.
A curious view, considering that your country was founded by people who fled religious oppression themselves, in order to create feligious feedom as a result. The US advertises itself as a nation founded on the pretext that government should be the protector of the individual's rights, rather than the determinant of whatever level of freedom allowed.
BOS
Sheesh, you'd think by now, I'd proof before I post...
-A
Cindy,
No disrespect intended, but, I strongly disagree with you. Speaking for myself, I tire of having religion (of any form) shoved down my throat. Believe (or disbelieve) what you like, but it needn't be forced on anyone. It seems that, for the most part, that while we have freedom *of* religion, we can't have freedom *from* religion. Please, let's keep church and state seperate.
-Andrew
P.S. I apologize if this seems terse. Unfortunately, this medium doesn't allow for a lot of emotion to come through. This was *not* an angry missive. Just brief... -A
Well in this case optional means A)I have a daughter in 6th grade. She has classmates who are Muslim and Jehovah's Witness. They do not participate in the pledge and often many school functions (field trips, dances, etc.). They are not looked down upon, but are in fact considered part of the "cool" group + it has nothing to do with religion either. (You have to remember this is a 99.9% white, Catholic community), B) I work at the local high school. At least 60% of my particular class do not stand/recite/acknowledge the pledge. After the first occurance (it was unplanned during the morning announcements) we had a class discussion and it was seen for what it was, a fake symbolic gesture that had little to do with real patriotism and more to do with a "feel good" mentality that goes with the little plastic "Made in China" American flags that seem to have sprouted overnight. I must add that the majority of these kids go to church on a regular basis + helped raise over $20,000 for the 9/11 families.
OKAY,
2 cents from the resident Christian here.
I agree with cookie regarding choice, freedom and different strokes for different folks.
Unlike cookie, I don't think the phrase " Under God" should be removed. The majority of Americans believe in some form of diety and those that don't shouldn't be losing any sleep over the mention of God. If you don't believe in God you should be cool about it. I like to think that if I happened to be an atheist during the mention of the phrase " under God" I would just smile to myself and think what silly rabbits believing in something that doesn't exist. I wouldn't get militant. If they are wrong and I KNOW it, who the fuck cares?
GEEEZE of all the stupid things to get your ruff up over. File a LAW SUIT because your offeeeeeeeeeeeended? Fuck off flea. Why don't you attack something that counts? Like the fact that huge numbers of hispanic kids are being put on ritalin so they won't "disturb the other children in class" why not file a law suit because people still say the words nigger and chink and spick and jap? Why don't you make THAT illegal if you want to file a law suit.
The words "Under God" are part of our tradition. Men from all races and religions who fought and died to protect our freedom have recited those words and were stirred by the patriotism that the pledge was designed to incite.
Go ahead, remove the words "Under God" as soon as you remove all of the other things that are offensive on Earth, racists, klansmen, societies in which it is permissive to eat dogs, phrases and names geared to wound innocent people.
There IS a place for righteous indignation but it isn't in the use of a word that offends some but injures no one.
HOWEVER! I do agree that individuals should be left alone to make the decision whether to recite the Pledge of Allegiance or not.
Oh hey cookie, what were your political reasons for not reciting the pledge or covering your heart with your hand?
Just curious,
Cindy
>Locally grade school kids have been reciting the pledge for years, but it is optional. The local high school began this practice nearly a full month after the 9/11 attacks. Again, optional. <
We need to define "optional" here. I don't how "optional" it is for a third-grader to find the independence, gumption, and willingness to to stay seated while the rest of the class stands up when teacher leads the pledge.
Not only do you look anti-patriotic, but it's also not a small slight at the teacher's authority and the community spirit of the classroom. And I don't see it getting much easier for a 7th grader, or even a 10th grader.
So, I wouldn't call it "optional."
Thanks for the update. I must have been thinking about dollar bills---possibly. 1954 must have been the year it went on ALL money as I just pulled out a dime + half dollar from 1900 + 1906 repectively and only one has the motto. I thought the pledge was adopted in 1934. I suppose that's like saying the Constitution as it was written as the Magna Carta dates back to the 1500's. Too many apples and oranges. I'm glad you didn't stick up for Drudge as well.
Debbie: Thank you for the information regarding libraries and such. It always appreciated when someone can provide such useful and helpful information in a well-mannered and kind way instead of the usually 'What dooooooo you mean, duuuuuude? That's a stupid question'.
As to public libraries, well, I have to admit: I haven't had a library card in, oh. . . (he said, mumbling, scuffing the toe of his shoe in the dirt) at least ten years. The last librry card I had was my student I.D. in college, which doubled as a library card. I actually wore out the magnetic strip on the back from checking out so many volumes.
There are, of course, reasons for why I have not gotten a library card. 1) Why should I? The local public library is not open during hours when I would prefer to visit it. 2) Rarely does said library have the volumes I want to read or use. 3) My personal library--well, let's just say it's so big volume-wise I may have to move just to allow it to grow and grow. It already crowds my office, the entertainment room, the closet under the stairs, the spare bedroom, and my bedroom. 4) I want to go the library. The PUBLIC library. Not the dumping ground for someone's snot-nosed brat who has a set of lungs on him that could make the greatest opera singer jealous.
But don't mind me.
Until next time. . .
Just a quick response to Jim Hess's question about library records. I've been a librarian for 22 years, and it's my understanding that all 50 states have laws guaranteeing the privacy of library records, both public and academic. The laws will vary some from state to state, but a search warrant would be required to access this information. HOWEVER, with the passage of the USA Patriot Act, Public Law 107-56,the FBI has the authority to issues warrants to search for information for foreign intelligence and international terrorism investigations.This would include libraries. The law also states that a person receiving this warrant can't acknowledge that they've received the warrant. I can post some websites that can give more information on this, if anyone is interested.
These are interesting times in the library world!
Debbie
Greg, I feel compelled to correct some misapprehensions in your message. First, "In God We Trust" has been on American coinage for almost 150 years. Secondly, the Pledge of Allegience, in its original form, is over a century old. It was written by Bellamy in the 1890s. Interestingly, this Bellamy was the cousin of the man who wrote an early utopian novel, "Looking Backward."
It was Eisenhower who pushed for the addition of "under God" to a perfectly servicable Pledge in 1954. It had been long recognized before that, and made official by an act of Congress in the early forties. It was at about the same time that "In God We Trust" was established as a national motto, adjoining "E Pluribus Unum" (which, frankly, I prefer). That may be what you were thinking of when you mentioned the slogon appearing on money.
Yes, tis true about the pledge. Locally grade school (lower El) kids have been reciting the pledge for years, but it is optional. The local high school began this practice nearly a full month after the 9/11 attacks. Again, optional. One has to remember that the "under God" was added the same year we began this "In God We Trust" stuff on our money. I've often wondered about the relationship of THAT and the desegregation of schools. Also the Pledge itself came to being at the beginning of the Depression, when socialism and some of these other kooky ideas started to sound pretty good. Just some points to ponder. And one more: for those of you who need a laugh, check out the Drudge site with the "Today" show flap. The transcript is full of gibberish on both sides. With that and some of the internet rumors/urban legends being cited as fact, I think he should seriously consider calling the site Dumbass a Go-Go.
Oops. My bad. I was thinking Supreme Court. See where speedreadin'll get ya?
This will likely have little effect in NY. I think the words "under God" should be removed. Even if they are removed, I still think individuals should make the decision whether to recite it or not.
Gunther: I am also amused. In New York state, students begin the day with the pledge. Students and teachers do not have to say it. I didn't say it for political reasons rather than religious reasons. The question sometimes came down to whether or not those not participating in the pledge should at least stand to show respect for those who did recite. I chose to stand, but I would not cover my heart with my hand. I never reprimanded a child who refused to stand or to recite. Choice. Freedom.Different strokes for different folks.
I'm curious to see if NY state will discontinue recitation of the Pledge in public schools or whether they will leave the decision to use it or not up to individual school communities.
I don't know if you've heard this, but the Pledge of Allegiance has been declared unconstitutional - http://tinyurl.com/hli
I am strangely amused.
Lynn, allow me to echo my congratulations. I'm very happy for you!
Zoe, best of luck in your new environs. You are obviously a young woman of courage and character and clearly far more civic-mindedness than the rest of us. Give 'em hell!
Talk of Shakespeare, eh? I'll admit I didn't care for Shakespeare for the longest time. It wasn't so much a dislike as an ambivalence. It was just old, boring stuff I'd been forced to read in school. Just looking at the words on the page, as a teenager in a classroom, did nothing whatsoever for me. Then, a few years back, Michael was in a splendid outdoor performance of The Taming of the Shrew at the Botanical Gardens in Albuquerque, in which he played Petruchio. COMPLETELY turned me around. I thought the play was uproarious, and Michael killed. Slayed. Murdered! Michael and the rest of the cast (but mostly Michael) finally showed me what all the fuss was about, and breahed life into Shakespeare for me. So now I'm a fan. As for TITUS, all I can say is that I fell in love with the recent Anthony Hopkins film version. Maybe not Shakespeare's best play, but in the hands of the right actors, director, and production designer, the film was able to achieve a certain degree of greatness, I think.
J
Pulp Renaissance: I like the grue of some of the Elizabethan and Jacobean revenge tragedies -- The Duchess of Malfi, The Spanish Tragedy, The Changeling -- and wish that some of the better directors of Shakespearean adaptations would turn to them. I'm sure Taymor could do wonders with the Duchess, for example, if the funding were there.
The Scofield Lear from the 70s is interesting -- very cold, almost absurdist.
Measure for Measure is a fine play, especially for non-period-specific setting. A version at Stratford in the 1980s was set in a fetish bar; Alan Scarfe was terrific as the undercover Duke.
As to other Shakespeare trivia...I don't know, but I think the stage direction from Winter's Tale -- "Exit, chased by a bear" -- ranks with Beckett's "Vladimir uses his intelligence" among the all-time greatest stage directions.
Cheers, Jon
Titus was one of Shakespeare's earliest plays, modeled on Kyd's Spanish Tragedy. This type of drama (lots of blood-letting and general gore) was quite popular in the early phases of Elizabethan drama...often the show was preceeded by entertainments like bear baiting.
Titus is often cited in the Shakespeare authorship controversy. Some claim that the man who wrote Titus was clearly of a different mind (and ability...much of the writing in Titus is lumpish) than the man who crafted MacBeth, Hamlet, and all the other great plays. Others say it's a signal of the author's genius and development that he was able to move the tragedy from a bloody crowd-pleasing entertainment into eternal art. "Shakespeare in Love" touches on this a little bit, with its message that here was a play that was something considerably more than the usual offering.
Jon -
Personally, I think of Titus as the worst of the lot. It has some brilliant poetry and some great visual ideas, it strikes me as a play written to sell tickets. It contains most of the elements of gratuitous violence you'd find in a penny dreadful, pulp comics and market tabloids, with none of the developed themes of romance and morality you'd find in his best work. The historical information on the play seems to support that it was a play commissioned by a patron or to gain favor and celebrity, and there is also evidence he didn't write it at all (which strikes me as an excuse by those who believe everything The Bard wrote was perfect).
Granted, its the play I spent the most time with in school. My prof implied that it would be an excellent choice for those who wanted to dig deeper into the historical elements of Shakespeare's world (read: do more work for more credit). To be honest with you, I think of "Titus" as a very early rough draft of "Hamlet" There are similar themes of family loyalty, politics and sexual misdeeds, trechery and tragedy in a royal house invaded by the protagonist's mortal enemies. Certainly there are a lot of DIFFERENCES, but if you compare title characters and how they approach their madness and shift in power and loyalties, the only significant difference is the fact that Titus had, like, a gajillion kids. But even then, there weren't any really worth a damn when the chips were down. He had Marcus as Hamlet had Horatio.
But many of the failings of Titus lie in a total lack of likeable characters. Aaron, one of Shakespeare's great bad guys, is the most likeable guy on stage. He's got it right and even helps put them out of their obvious misery.
TODD --
interesting. The person who described it to me said the story was "more concerned with how they got where they are than what they are doing now", and the movie was the opposite.
I stand corrected.
Venkman remarked
> On the subject of "Titus" I agree - it was a visual
> feast. Beautiful tapestries, great sets, gorgeous
> costumes, and some wonderful acting. It struck me
> pleasantly with elements of _Brazil_, _The Wall_ and
> _Rocky Horror_. However, I equate Titus, the original
> work, with prose-for-hire. It really isn't the Bard's
> best and, despite a handful of lyrical gems, the play
> itself is violence for the sake of violence without
> the poetry and fantasy that gave us even the dark
> "Richard III" or the mythical "Midsummer Night's Dream"
> So, when you reinvent something that is, in the canon of
> the Bard, his least of great works, It's really putting
> a prom dress on a greyhound: eye-catching, even humorous,
> but utimately out of place.
Hmm. I don't necessarily agree. When you have gold to work with (Macbeth, Twelfth Night, The Tempest), it's not so difficult to make gold leaf. But turning lead into gold (or at least a shiny pretense of silver) can be a very admirable thing. I've seen some terrific productions of "Measure for Measure" over the years (this one REALLY works in 1930s Vienna or Weimar), such that it's become one of my personal favorites, and I have to remind myself of its weaknesses.
I haven't seen the Taymor "Titus" yet, by the way; few celluloid/video versions of Shakespeare have had the kind of impact on me that many stage productions have. Many of them, from Branagh's "Much Ado" to several recent Othellos and Hamlets, are fine but not superlative. I remember being blown by Peter Brook's late 1960s black and white Lear -- with Paul Schofield, was it? -- but I was a teen when I viewed it in the mid 1970s, and haven't seen it again. Even video recordings of stage productions tend to beat movie versions: Anyone know whether the 1970s Joseph Papp productions of "Much Ado" with Sam Waterston, or Lear with James Earl Jones which aired on PBS are available on video anywhere?
Jon Stover a number of plays he thought lesser than Titus. I've never warmed to Verona, but I've seen some incredible stagings of "The Comedy of Errors," and I think that play does what it does perfectly. Titus aspires to more and fails, clumsily. Often I prefer a lesser story well done to a more ambitious one that is not so successful.
INFOMAN: Well, as I was just listening to Springsteen's three-disc live music compendium at work, yeah--I headed to hear "The Rising."
Nice song; very John Hiatt. I still have to admit to having problems with Bruce's on-again, off-again clenched-teeth drawl thing. Sometimes, I just want to scream, "You're from JERSEY!!!" But other times, it works. For the most part, this was one of those times--and the the band has a power behind it that isn't often heard in studio stuff.
MITCH: You LIKED the Taymor version of Titus? Yeesh. While beautifully shot and filled with some great actors, it just lay there like a Caligula-retread pile of crap to me. I shrug.
Moses Wine/Simon: That's _The Big Fix_, which was adapted for the screen with Richard Dreyfuss, right? I did read the novel during one of my detective benders. I'll have to check out some of Simon's other work -- I didn't realize the connection with _Enemies_, which was a good movie, albeit not as overlooked at the time as was initially posited.
Manhunter/Red Dragon: I do enjoy Manhunter. Strange that it took 15 years after the film for someone to realize William Petersen's ability to play such a character again (CSI -- I ain't trying to be obscure). And, god help us, I thought Manhunter improved on the book at points. And then he stole the Blake print and ate it...and then he survived the attempt to capture him so that he could show up at Will Graham's at the end so that Graham would prove to be ineffectual...the movie has its own goofy flaws (Crawford getting shot, Graham taking a run at the window...), but the "In-a-gadda-da-vidda" sequence is very, very good. Tom Noonan's terrific, Cox is terrific, Joan Allen as the blind woman is terrific, Petersen is terrific, Mann's direction is nice, the set design for the psychiatric facility where Lecter is held is much creepier than the gothic dungeon of Silence -- all acres of clinical white and glass.
Cheers, Jon
Venkman: Not really a complaint but more of a question -- I'd rate Comedy of Errors, Two Gentlemen of Verona, Timon of Athens and maybe half-a-dozen others below Titus Andronicus. When you note "least of great works" about Titus Andronicus, are you suggesting that it's the least of a tier of Shakespearean plays that still exists above a lower tier of other Shakespearean plays or that's it's the worst of the worst?
On the other hand, any film adaptation of Timon would be the first. Branagh? Branagh? Branagh?
Cheers, Jon
Forgive the Entertainment Weekly Subject...couldn't resist.
Mitch!
Welcome back to the states! I envy you and your travels. A short tale or two wouldn't hurt anyone here, I'm sure.
On the subject of "Titus" I agree - it was a visual feast. Beautiful tapestries, great sets, gorgeous costumes, and some wonderful acting. It struck me pleasantly with elements of _Brazil_, _The Wall_ and _Rocky Horror_. However, I equate Titus, the original work, with prose-for-hire. It really isn't the Bard's best and, despite a handful of lyrical gems, the play itself is violence for the sake of violence without the poetry and fantasy that gave us even the dark "Richard III" or the mythical "Midsummer Night's Dream" So, when you reinvent something that is, in the canon of the Bard, his least of great works, It's really putting a prom dress on a greyhound: eye-catching, even humorous, but utimately out of place.
Mitch,
Hmmmm.....you have a decent point about Dafoe and the costume "opening up." I still think it obscured too much and became an impediment.
Regards,
Joseph
Hello, board.
Just got back from my vacation. A two-week spree through London, Stockholm and Brussels. I won't bore you with the details, unless you want me to. Suffice to say I had a blast, and recommend all three.
The Shining - You see the cute bunny-shaped shrub. You turn away for a few seconds,
and hear a rustling. You turn back, and the bunny is looking at you. Was it looking
at you before? While you try to remember, you hear another rustling. You turn, and
the lion seems a bit closer...
The hedge animal scene in the novel worked, because it was a creepy game of "Red Light,
Green Light". It COULD have worked in the miniseries, with the right direction and
editing, but instead we get leafy cartoon animals walking around. Bad idea. No biscuit.
"Don't forget that great, pompous costume pagent "Titus". A role well made for
Hopkins...but was the movie absolutely necessary?"
Hellz yeah! Julie Taymor is a visionary, and she made "Titus" a feast (so to speak).
Not only was it a sensory delight, but the cast delivered in spades. It's refreshing to
see someone be creative with a Shakespeare film, and do it well, instead of yet another
modern-day retelling.
"As for Goblin's costume, Washu, my problem was that it obscured some delivious
overacting by Dafoe in the rooftop "join me" scence (the one real clunker in the
movie). Could have been anybody in the suit, except that the movements (especially
whapping Peter upside the head) were so Dafoe."
One of the things I liked about the scene was that the mask DIDN'T obscure Dafoe. The
eyes opened up, and you could see his mouth behind the black mesh. It was almost a
live-action double-image, the Goblin's features imposed over Osborn's face.
Mitch
Alex,
You are, of course, right about Roger L. Simon, who was deservedly nominated for his screenplay (along with Paul Mazursky). Looking at the IMDB, it's a more recognized film than I remembered - Angelica Huston (yay!) and Lena Olin were both nominated, and Ron Silver should have been.
Regards,
Joseph
Frank: Here's a description of Solaris from the IMDB: "The Solaris mission has established a base on a planet that appears to host some kind of intelligence, but the details are hazy and very secret. After the mysterious demise of one of the three scientists on the base, the main character is sent out to replace him. He finds the station run-down and the two remaining scientists cold and secretive. When he also encounters his wife who has been dead for seven years, he begins to appreciate the baffling nature of the alien intelligence."
This isn't a typical evil alien movie like you describe. I recommend getting your hands on the original book by Stanislaw Lem. Then I would suggest getting your hands on the 1972 version of the film directed by Andrei Tarkovsky. Make sure you watch the full 165 minute cut, not the 132 minute cut. Be warned, this film moves at a very slow, measured pace. I keep hearing comparisons to 2001 when I talk to other people about it.
Dennis
Dennis
Joe, while we're talking about "Enemies, A Love Story," let's remember not just Isaac Bashevis Singer, but also Roger L. Simon, who wrote the screenplay. Simon is best known for his Moses Wine mysteries, which have always been one of my guilty pleasures. He did a very good job of adapting Singer's story.
And, for those of us who love Angelica Huston AND Isaac Baashevis Singer, I see that there is a September 13 date announced for "Enemies: A Love Story," one of the most cruelly ignored movies from the past couple of decades. Rocking!
Little Washu,
Oh, I'm perfectly agreeing with you on Spidey's suit in the rooftop scene. It's just that the Goblin suit sprang to mind, especially as compared to the brilliantly shot and acted and written mirror scene (a scene which could be studied in acting classes for years).
Regards,
Joseph
I am NOT paranoid.
Who told you that?
Seriously, you ain't done nuffin' wrong the burder ain't with you.
Right?
Until next time. . .
RICK: I second that. That would be great if you could edit that post, Rick. Sorry for the inconvenience.
JOSEPH: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of that 'Cliff's Notes' scene as well. Frankly, I don't have many benign feelings towards Cliff's Notes. I used one once for Homer's THE ILIAD, and somehow I've felt guilty ever since.
Anyway, the Goblin costume. Yes, the mask greatly obscured Dafoe's features, and yes, it could've been anyone in the suit. But couldn't you apply the exact same logic to SPIDER-MAN'S costume? Tobey Maguire was even more impossible to recognize in that rooftop scene because he was decked out on the floor and not moving that much. At least Dafoe could deliver his performance through body movements, voice and mannerisms. I really wish Raimi had allowed Spider-Man's white eyelids to be semi-transparent, so that at least in close-ups we can officially say "Yeah, that's Tobey."
Personally I see the Goblin costume as something out of Noh theater; where the performer relies on physical concentration as everything else is masked.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Little Washu -
Well, I'm just backin' mah homies on the "depth" thing. We can, at times, be deep and philosophical. We can also be shallow and stupid. I'm just pulling out the best examples where our prissy little visitor pulled a few recent threads off the latest of whathas to be the Warren Report of daily posts.
Now, Patrick Stewart as Titus Andronicus! Hmmmm...
"Repose you here in rest,
Secure from worldly chances and mishaps.
Here lurks no treason, here no envy swells,
Here grow no damned drugs, here are no storms,
No noise, but silence and eternal sleep...ENGAGE!"
Cindy wrote:
> David,
> If memory serves me correctly that would be;
> "Stop wishin' for bad luck
> and knockin' on wood."
No wonder I could never make it out. It doesn't scan!
Now that you've got me in the mood, I wish I could find copies of "Happiest Squirrel in the Whole U.S.A." and
"Disco sucks, it won't last too long,
it's big raht naow but iss gon' fade away...."
Todd,
That was "Se7en," where Kevin Spacey's character was ferreted out by collating red-flagged withdrawals from the FBI database. Led to a wonderful scene of Pitt shouting "Fucking Dante!" as he beats a book against a car wheel in pouring rain, just before a beat cop comes up and hands him a bunch of Cliff's Notes through the window. Not a great movie, but that scene always cracks me up.
Regards,
Joseph
Damned if my memory will serve me right now, but wasn't there a fairly recent movie, or maybe a teevee show, where the bad guy was (no very believably) ferreted out by reviewing his library records? Can't remember if it was science fiction or not, but I do know I saw it not too long ago and blurted out a big "pshaw!" at some poor logic.
Besides, who is to say the FBI hasn't already combed library records for various reasons and is only now making it public in this time of paranoia?
-TODD
Washu & Rick,
Got the address. Rick, if you want to edit Washu's post to remove the address, that would be wunderbar.
As for Goblin's costume, Washu, my problem was that it obscured some delivious overacting by Dafoe in the rooftop "join me" scence (the one real clunker in the movie). Could have been anybody in the suit, except that the movements (especially whapping Peter upside the head) were so Dafoe.
That, and who designs a flight suit like that to sell to the government?
Regards,
Joseph
RE: "Mr. Cohn". Dang it all to squeezed cheese, Harlan. I hadda him in my sights. I did. And you went and spooked him. Dang it all.
Now what I am supposed to shoot? Er, squirt. Yeah, that's it. What am I supposed to SQUIRT with my nifty water cannon?
Anyway, a question for anyone and everyone: Did anyone, speaking things library, see the article of recent about the FBI searching PUBLIC libraries for those who might be terrorists? Um. . . that ain't right, is it? Isn't there something legally wrong with this practice? Enlighten me. Better yet, discuss it right here. I'll be back soon. I've filled with the water cannon with fresh green jello.
Until next time. . .
REGARDING RED DRAGON: Although "Manhunter" is an _excellent_ adaptation of Thomas Harris' novel, I think the remake is worth a look because of the actors involved (Ed Norton, Anthony Hopkins, et al) and _mostly_ because Ted Tally -- the screenwriter -- usually does a great job.
By the way, anyone here a Bruce Springsteen fan? (Not you Harlan, I remember your comments in AN EDGE IN MY VOICE, though you're missing some great music -- "Streets of Philadelphia," "My Home Town," "Secret Garden," "Murder Inc," etc; and all of the albums entitled "Darkness On the Edge of Town," "Nebraska," "Ghost of Tom Joad").
If you like Springsteen, the title single from his new album, "
"The Rising," can be listened to online for the rest of the day. It's a terrific piece of work. The actual CD comes out in stores next month.
JOSEPH: All right, after some complications with my #@*%!&^%$?!
e-mail, I'm going to save us both some trouble and hand over the posting address right here:
[address removed at request]
Let me know if you need anything else. INCREDIBLE HULK: THE END should be on sale tomorrow. Thanks for everything, man.
VENKMAN: "...the conversation in this room is usually so deep and above my head I need a friggin' bathysphere to keep from imploding."
Well, I dunno...I always find the conversation in here more wacky than deep. I mean, where else can we leap from Titus Andronicus to Picard versus Xavier?
ERIC: I'll certainly agree with you that Hollywood HAS become terrified of anything that doesn't already have an established franchise to it, but nevertheless, I'm still going to behold the power and the might of the Incredible Hulk when he smashes into theater screens.
What can I say? I want to see the Hulk live and breathe. I want to see Ang Lee's vision of the Jade Giant. I want to see the Hulk leap, come crashing down, and then leap again into the sky. I want to see the grand opera I remember from the HULK comics brought into the flesh and blood world. It's just a wonderful thrill.
Oh, and I thought the Green Goblin's costume ruled. I'm willing to fight to the death on that one.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Let's not forget the real reason why "Red Dragon" shouldn't be made: "Manhunter" is already a great movie, and was made only about 15-16 yrs ago. Why remake it? I have no plans to see it, unless I'm stuck at a friend's house when the DVD comes out...
Oh, and for my money, Brian Cox will always be Hannibal Lecter.
Loved both The Bourne Identity (great to see a spy thriller that's an actual spy thriller, and not a "blow everything up, have a witty remark when you kill someone, action adventure" like most spy movies today) and Minority Report. Terrific blend of 40s film noir and sci fi, like a pulp cover come to life. Probably could have been 15 min shorter, but a great time at the movies (and good to see Spielberg being a bit dark and odd).
Still stunned that Bush is ordering Israel around. Never thought I would see a Republican do that. I mean, the Palestinians aint gonna get shit, but it is quite a strange development. Next thing you know Bush will want to go fishing with Fidel Castro.
Cohn, are you related to a Werner Cohn; who has this website disemboweling the great work of Noam Chomsky? You seem to be from the same pedigree. Cohn, ever hear of the damn library? All the Ellison you will ever need, bubbles. And why in the world would anyone want to read stories online anyway? This web-board hurts my eyes enough. Sheesh.
-------------
Todd, Red Dragon might have it's steely moments; hope I am wrong, because I do like the Hannibal charactor. But I do think it is wise that Sir. Anthony puts a nail in that particular coffin. Hannibal will just have to make do with eating worms.
------------
Does anyone know what Solaris is supposed to be about? I love George Clooney, but I will say that space movies aren't always my cup of java. Every space movie seems to have something to do with some struggle against an alien evil--and the fine, well scrubbed American boys end up kicking alien ass before the credits crawl. Snooze.
----------------
Minority Report is at least great entertainment and amazingly directed; you playa hata's have to at least admit that.
OOPS, OF COURSE I meant John Prine.
Hey David,
Did you dedicate that refrain from the David Prine song "Dear Abbey" to our guest Mr.Cohn?
:)
Cindy
David,
If memory serves me correctly that would be;
"Stop wishin' for bad luck
and knockin' on wood."
:)
siiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiigned
Cindy
Cindy:
"Bewildered, Bewildered,"
You have no complaint;
You are what you are
and you ain't what you ain't.
So listen up, buster,
and listen up good,
----------------
And knock on wood.
Signed ... Dear Abby."
(I couldn't remember that one line.)
Aw shit, Timothy Findley bought the farm? Damn. Anybody here who hasn't read _Not Wanted On the Voyage_, go out IMMEDIATELY and find a copy and enjoy. Well, maybe "enjoy" isn't the best word for such an odd and intense book, but you will be blown away.
(I'm reading _Darwin's Radio_ right now, if anyone cares...)
Yes, I am a bad person, although the wife tolerates me. I'll not speak to the posting of Mr. Cohn, having had a couple of bad turns with folks hereabouts, but there's a difference in this site that perhaps he hasn't picked up on. Anyone can find evidence to conclusions they've prior constructed; it takes a bit more to stay and discover how much those conclusions were wrong. Hang around, Mr. Cohn, and prepare to be impressed. Goldblum's about to feed again...
BTW, Rick, has anyone seen Goldblum about? My youngest noticed his disappearance, and she wondered if he'd flew away...
Egads, I've become trivial. J'excuse, Monsieur Cohn, I'll high-brow the rest of the way.
Xavier Vs. Picard: No question. Picard in three rounds, based on reach and mobility. Both are of course comparative in weight and size.
There, problem solved. I go now to finish lunch and continue on the rink's repair maintenance and repair cycle. No yelling parents, no mopping of dressing rooms, no incessant queries about riding on the Zamboni, no calls from councillors screaming at me that a league president is screaming at them, no breaking up fights, no paperwork, no finding a prosthetic leg in a bathroom (true story). Just taking apart and repairing the compressors, replacing refrigerant, pulling up the brine piping to find and repair leaks, putting the Zam through a tune up, then paint the place from floor to rafters; it's bliss I tells ya, bliss!
Have fun, peoples.
He quickly leaps from the recesses of the periodicals sections, his coveralls flapping ever so gently in the breeze of the air-conditioning. Ever vigilant in his quest to keep the ice safe for all who would wish to skate: The Bag-O-Scott!
This is Ellinson's website? Ellinson? Shit, I've been coming to the wrong website for four years now.
---Peter
>I fear the trend will end about the time Spiderman 2 is in post. <
No doubt. The bets are on to see just how absurd it becomes, before we all move on. Thor? Aquaman? Captain Marvel, Jr.?
The old saw "just because we CAN do a thing, doesn't mean we SHOULD" certainly applies here. Hey, I'm sure CGI could do wonders with Iron Man's suit, and I'm certain Britney Spears would make an excellent Wonder Woman (I know, wrong hair, but she'd fill out the suit nicely. And the Brit is as American as key lime pie). I suppose I'd even pony up to see an all-star cast do the Justice Society...with Tom Hanks in a stretch role as Brain Wave.
Or, I could wait for Hulk to do moderately well with the under-22 set, for Daredevil to flop, for X-Men to not have enough screen time for Famke Janssen, and for Spider-Man 2 (Electric Boogaloo) to kind of suck.
"Tom Cohn",
Don't let the electronic Webderland door shock you in the ass on the way out.
Love, Todd
Gunther, the film Apt Pupil is an excellent adaption of King's novella....and it is a very close adaption as well. It does not stray much.
-TODD
Picard v. Xavier - I remember a time when Albert Finney was being tossed around as the possible Xavier...back about the late 80s, I guess. I can't imagine someone other than Stewart doing Xavier. I see Eric's point, though, about seeing him as Jean-Luc Picard in a portable command chair. Patrick Stewart has a very defined, measured delivery and, while softer-spoken than Picard, Xavier's fatherly, nuturing inflection comes with Stewart's usual soft delivery style which is not much different from the countless scenes where he addressed "lesser beings" or new civilizations on Trek. He has a distinct voice and manner that saturates most roles he plays, from Scrooge to Dr. Jonas in _Conspiracy Theory_. I admire the man and think he's a talented actor, but he is not exactly a chameleon when it comes to taking on a role.
Regarding comics switching media, I don't think $350 million (so far) in Spiderman Box Office is going to slow the factory for new comic properties. Anything that had a half-chance of being green-lit is moving forward and will continue until either "X2" or "Daredevil" fail to be profitable. I fear the trend will end about the time Spiderman 2 is in post. The hack market is already hastening this with crap like "Mutant X" on TV, "The Tick" (which while wonderful and light-hearted didn't hit its target audience hard enough to stick around) and "Birds of Prey". I fear Dimension and Artisan Films will try and get into the market with cheaper - teen-market driven retreads of Ghost Rider, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage.
The fact that Daredevil is coming out Valentine's Day instead of, say, Memorial Day weekend, means they are rushing it out, KNOW they are rushing it, realize it won't compete with summer flicks and are prepared to cut their domestic Box Office potential in exchange for extra merchandising $$$ and a bigger share of the summer rental/sales market. Can you imagine the movie being sold on the Daredevil/Elektra romance? I can picture the TV spots now with the "DD" logo morphing into a red heart (with horns? too much?), then dissolving into a shot of Garner and Affleck necking on a rooftop.
"DARE to see it with someone you love..."
Going to work now...be well.
Eric,
I'd just like to respond to one of your comments, rather than make a sweeping statement about your generalizations. I think you give Patrick Stewart far less credit for his acting than he deserves - his protrayal of Xavier is obviously far different from his protrayal of Picard. Stewart played the interpretation of the script, filtered through his acting skill and experience. You might as well compain that Chris Claremont "Claremontized" the X-Men when he wrote them. Everybody does their own interpretation, and it in no way hurts the original - and can add to it.
Regards,
Joseph
Dearest Tom -
Thanks for stopping in. Your bright ray of sunshine set an example for all of us in how positive insight like yours can make the world a brighter place for everyone.
I'm sorry you were disappointed by the tone and that you won't be reading Mr. Ellinson's work, but perhaps that's for the best. If you think our words are dark and sinister, sweetheart, you better stay the hell away from any of Mr. Ellinson's commentary. If WE put you off your salad, Mr. Ellinson will give you bedwetting problems for years to come.
As you have never read or ventured to look into Ellison before now, I can only imagine you are still partially pinned under your rock and have never heard of, let alone discussed, the topics you've cut-n-pasted as examples of our snobbery. So discussions of "Solaris" or "Titus" or Stanley Kubrick are, to you, simply a combination of words with punchy-sounding verbs and objects woven into complex sentences that really mean little more to you than the chatter found on most teeny chat boards.
A little bit of insight, Marco Polo: I'm an educated man, and the conversation in this room is usually so deep and above my head I need a friggin' bathysphere to keep from imploding. If you can't keep up, stay to the shore where it's safe. Pick up a copy of the latest Oprah-sanctioned happy-sappy love handbook and sign up for the weekly book group at Border's.
If we, the taverners of webderland, have put you off reading the 50 years of literature produced by the patron of Rick's site, then I say we did our job. The last thing we really need here is another visitor from the land of "Idontgetit" taking pot shots at people.
Take care, and give our regards to the Deepak Chopra discussion group.
Jay (stepping out from behind Venkman for a moment)
Little Washu, nothing is wrong with the Hulk and Daredevil. They are wonderful comic books. I'm just sick of seeing this medium, which I personally love, being plundered for movie ideas. Comics are a visual art...they don't need to be remade into another visual art. It never crosses over properly...the light touch of the drawn line becomes heavy and over-done on film, with CGI madness, bad costuming, and a hyper-activity of which the casual, one-page-at-a-time of world comics is blissfully free.
Come on, who wouldn't agree that Spider-Man was swinging a WEE bit too fast? Or that the Goblin's, and Batman's, costumes sucked? Sure, there's Jon-Luc Picard in a wheelchair as Xavier...best casting possible, but now the character of Xavier is forever...Jon-Luc Picarded.
I know that Hollywood is under a Satanic mandate to have one Ben Affleck film running in the country at all time (try to find the last time there wasn't one), but are we so OVER in filmdom that we're mining second-tier Marvel superheroes for storylines?
Why stop there...let's hit the funny papers next. They tried Dilbert...maybe Wizard of Id is ready for a retcon. Then later, when people stop buying tickets to see Metamorpho's third movie, we can remake the remakes....
"MR. COHN":
You have the right idea. You wouldn't like it here. Nice to have had you stop by. Goodbye.
Harlan Ellison
I have heard much about Mr. Ellinson's books, and came to this site to learn a little, and maybe get a recommendation for a good starting point.
Instead, I see a completely hateful, pompous site. Featuring such gems as:
"Everything you see here is authorized by the author and appears by his special and exclusive permission. Don't ask me for more stuff, this is all you're gonna get."
Boy, that really makes me want to run out and buy all of his books.
Or maybe reading through some of the wonderful quotes on the board:
"I don't think I've seen faker-looking CGI in quite a while"
"I hate Stephen King. I haven't liked one of his books"
"For those too lazy "
"Don't forget that great, pompous costume pagent "
Mr. Ellison does himself a grave diservice by allowing himself to be associated with this site. I can only assume that he, too, must be of a similar disposition, and his books, therefore, unworthy of reading. No big deal, there are hundreds of other writers out there that I haven't read yet.
Watched the teaser trailer for Daredevil (same site as the student CGI project "Solaris") and...oy...it's Black Scorpion, Forever Knight, Batman, Spawn, and that goofy Rex Harrison Daredevil all rolled into one.
But, please, don't take MY word for it...enjoy this tasty bit of cud for yourself: http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/daredevil/
JOSEPH: Message received - I'll get back to you on that.
ERIC: What's wrong with THE HULK and DAREDEVIL?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
VENKMAN --
that trailer made me cry. I don't think I've seen faker-looking CGI in quite a while. Plus, it's ALREADY WRONG, because the station is NEAR THE OCEAN, not somewhere in space. Goddamn you, Soderbergh!
IN RELATED RANTS
The Shining --
I hate Stephen King. I haven't liked one of his books, and the only movie (other than The Shining, I'm getting to that) that was watchable was Apt Pupil (and I hear that doesn't have much to do with the story either). So I'm glad Kubrick took out all the crap that makes King so eminently cliche... moving hedge animals, most of the child abuse subtext, the stupid ending. Compare Kubrick's The Shining with the recent TV movie adaption... I think it's quite clear which is superior. [*]
Killer Pigs --
It worked in Snatch.
[*] All in my humble opinion, of course.
For those too lazy to click through, Brian's fine article is at http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/3538969.htm
... but I think it's missing the letters "Commun" from the beginning of the first sentence.
Don't forget that great, pompous costume pagent "Titus". A role well made for Hopkins...but was the movie absolutely necessary?
It's like someone in the 28th century INSISTING they recreate and re-invent Steven Spielberg's "Duel" in Real-Time 3D enviro-tech.
SUSAN and HARLAN: Received the latest issue of The Rabbit Hole today, and just wanted to say thanks ... thanks!
>due to the fact that Hopkins agreed to a huge paycheck<
As if Hannibal wasn't enough of a cash-in. Hopkins is really sucker-punching his film career with these wretched films. He was on quite a roll for a while, picking good parts...now it's movies with Chris Rock and more Hannibal the Cannibal. Bad call, Sir Tony: Michael Caine you ain't.
Meanwhile, the AFI gives Tom Hanks its big award. Hollywood offers up Daredevil and The Incredible Hulk. Spielberg rips off L.A Confidential and still can't craft a decent role for a woman.
Oh well, at least Bourne Identity had nice scenes of Paris. Film's hundred-year run is just about over...
Little Washu,
Nope.
Joseph
If Soderbergh and Cameron have coloured their visions with the notion they can actually top Andrei Tarkovsky's masterwork, heck, it's their funeral.
But then again, I'm not exactly a fan of James Cameron's, so I may be a teensy bit biased.
Personally, I think it would be kind of cool to have an official 'Hannibal' trilogy with Sir Anthony in all three. What's the matter with re-adapting the same book? I mean, look at GREAT EXPECTATIONS. I'm certainly not going to say RED DRAGON ranks with GREAT EXPECTATIONS, but it's still the same principle.
JOSEPH: Have you received an e-mail from me giving you that posting address you mentioned? Just checking.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
The source I remember for Kubrick's nixing the hedge animals, due to special effects constraints, was Stephen King; he'd given an interview in _Heavy Metal_ when the film was in production. I figure it's probably accurate, but if it's not, no big deal.
On the anti-Historic District front, have a look at the Philadelphia Inquirer's editrial page this Tuesday. http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/ They're running my piece.
....and since mention of the genius Kubrick often leads to debate on this board, I purposely wrote that he "wrote out" the hedge animals. Many folk say he only switched a hedge maze for hedge animals because special effects could not handle the animals. Is there any actual interview with Kubrick that confirms this? If there is, then I'm sorry, but if there isn't, I choose to believe he found them a tad too goofy for what resulted in a more psychological adaption of the King novel.
-TODD
Frank,
Red Dragon: A movie that is only being made (re-made) due to the fact that Hopkins agreed to a huge paycheck to reprise his popular role.....right off the bat, not a good sign; not a good excuse to remake a movie that was damn good (Mann's MANHUNTER), and their excuse that this is a true adaption of "the book" and not a remake of the "the movie" is bullshit.....I read the book, and MANHUNTER was not that much different.
Red Dragon: has lotsa cool actors, but it's directed by the man who brought us The Family Man, Rush Hour, Rush Hour 2 and dagnabbit will be bringing us Rush Hour 3 next year. Not a good sign.
I enjoyed Hannibal for Hopkins' acting and Scott's Italy sequences. I even got some good chuckles over the brain-dinner scene thanks to an exquisite acting job by Liotta, so I did not hate the movie. I DID hate the book. I LOATHED the book. I DESPISED the book. Goddamn those killer pigs, and goddamn Scott for not writing them out the way Kubrick wrote out the silly hedge monsters in The Shining.
I love Hopkins, and the wife loves Norton, so we will be seeing Red Dragon....but that weak teaser is already convincing me that it will be on the bottom of the Lector movies (and that includes MANHUNTER).
-TODD
Also with Minority Report, did you notice there was music in the film that was also used in AI?
They also showed the preview to, Red Dragon. The scenes I saw looked like Silence Of The Lambs light. Hope I am proven wrong. Especially since I am one of the few people who loved, Hannibal.
Brian, you were right about, Minority Report; it has melodramatic moments and some of the situations seem a bit off, but all in all a wonderful and painfully well made film. Possibly this is Spielberg's best directorial job so far.
But what was with all the product placement? At certain times throughout the film I just shook my head and grimaced. But I would like to live in that apartment Cruise was in.
Congratulations, Lynn.
Accidental poetry: In one of my forays into the hilarity of the open net, I ran into this lament:
"I met the woman who broke my heart on the IRC.
My brother met his wife at Wendy's."
Sung by Tom Waits, it might be viable...
Jon
Trailer for "Solaris" online for your inspection...
http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/solaris/
Brian -
Very true. I discovered that Jacksons, Grants and Franklins make them happiest when they're walking around among the groundlings and since I had neither the means or desire to part with those, the biggest smiles were reserved for the less virile, older men in suits with stogies. :)
Susan, you out there anywhere? Happy birthday!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled BBS, which is already in progress.
Cindy, Kinky f; nope, haven't seen it. Dear Abbey, "Every side I get up on is the wrong side of bed If it weren't so expensive I'd wish I were dead." Yeah, I remember that 1... ;) Great Rain from The Missing Years is probably my fav Prine song right now.
LYNN: Many congratulations! Have a marvelous honeymoon...
And ZOE DOT DOT: For shame! Passed through New Mexico and didn't stop to try my cooking and say hello...no, no, it's all right, I'll just sit in the dark...
Best to the rest,
Michael
Holding auditions in two weeks, hooray!
I've passed by Delilah's a few times, but I don't think I'd be comfortable in there. I'd like sexual arousal to have an emotional angle to it-- and frankly, Delilah's ain't gonna give me the emotions.
But I did see _Minority Report_ tonight, and it's a must-see. Very intelligent, very well-done thriller with a fine SF-fantasy pedigree. In some ways it's derivative-- the lady in the greenhouse has echoes of Raymond Chandler, there's a murder that's almost identical to one in _L.A. Confidential_, and the marriage of Phil Dick to a hardboiled detective story was done in _Blade Runner_. Cruise is terrific, Colin Farrell kept reminding me of a young Orson Welles, and Max Von Sydow's always good to see in action. And best of all, the story's so wonderfully convoluted that I'm stull trying to work our the chain of causal events.
Hello Webderland...I come back from the wilderness glad to be home and ready for another week.
Lynn, sweeheart, wubbie, chickie, lady of many letters - My thanks and many congratulations to you. I feel like we should have a shower or wake or something in your honor.
I just returned from this bizarre little place called "Delilah's" in east Philly attending a bachelor party for my nephew. While I was more interested in the tight cut waitresses in pantyhose and corsets, the topless dancers were very limber, creative and cordial. The drinks weren't too bad..in the realm of extortion, but not outright theft. Security was fun to watch. The removal of several angry guests was done politely and quickly by three men about the same build as Michael Clarke Duncan. They even swooped in on one drunken freak who was giving our party a hassle. Seems we were keeping him from being able to drool over "his" girl (who he affectionately called after to as "Fishlips"). I'm sure he was upset to learn the bachelor had a dance lesson from her a few times that night.
This male ritual is quite intriguing. While only the third of its kind I've witnessed, it is my first in Philly. Far more pleasant than Vegas, the bouncers and security staff were brilliant. We also engaged in a ritual involving the preparation and consumption of various meats charred over an open flame, the sharing of many toasts and a round of tequila shots from a jug where the tequila had been pickling habenjero and jalapeno peppers since March.
That's where I've been. Also was dragged to a club in Jersey that night called "DayDreams" but it was closing within 20 minutes, had a $20 cover and BYOB. Only the poor man of honor was disappointed by this, however, and the drive home back to Norristown was quite peaceful with his sudden loss of consciousness. We would have worried, except his wife-to-be did the same an hour earlier from similar causes.
Happy Sunday!
Venkman
Oh, and ZOE:
Your cross-country trip sounded fantastic - the only time you can be proud of a stiff butt is a journey like that.
LYNN: Congratulations and good tidings.
Benjamin A.A. Winfield
ZOE: Hey, sorry to read that one of the boring parts of your drive took place as you passed through Missouri. You probably just need to hook-up with the right guide next time you travel through the "show-me" state. There really are quite a few things around here (especially in Kansas City and St. Louis) that would catch your eye, make you smile, arch a brow with genuine interest and maybe even tickle your fancy. Glad to learn you made it safely all the way out to California. I'm sure the in-processing will be tedious, but the rest of it will a breeze.
All best,
DTS
Hey all, just a quick hello - tried to catch up on the latest topics - Ellison barbs, various rants, etc etc. Made me giggle a lot and get strange looks from folks all camo'd up in uniforms in the local library.
Made my cross-country trip to California, what a hell of a drive! Some beautiful (New Mexico, most of Calif), some boring (Iowa, Missouri), but all pretty neat. I'm not sure my butt will recover from several days of 8-10hr drives, but here's to hoping. Tomorrow I start with all the inprocessing and such, and thus shall begin my time here on base.
Lynn, congrats! and let me know when you're off of cloud 9 and maybe I can come say congrats in person.
Vandenberg is pretty nice, insofar as bases go - anyway, I'll try hopping in now and again, and maybe even contribute to conversation in the future. Hope all is well with allayall.
--Zoë Rose
CONGRATULATIONS LYNN!
:)
Cindy
Scott,
Actually, I was at home, but I always keep an eye on the scoreboard to see when the crowds of annoying drunks will be wandering around my neighborhood after the game. That's when I noticed that game hadn't started 30 minutes after the scheduled time.
Regards,
Joseph
Rick:
Just got your message about the Webderland Park trade; it's been accepted, and is now open to owner's approval.
See yas later, BOS
Joseph:
You were at the game, I take it? Apparently that was the place where the fans would've been the last to find out something was very wrong. We'd heard about it from Fox tv's Joe Buck, who'd just lost his father Jack, a broadcasting legend himself, to lung cancer. You could feel the pain as he said it.
To better things and thoughts. So, yesterday was Lynn's wedding? Well, if karma's any judge of a marriage's success, Mel and I were wedded on a beautiful June 8th morning; a warm, gorgeous sun, and not much humidity. Good luck to ya, sweety.
With that, I'm out of here. Hope y'all are taking it easy.
The Bag-O-Scott returns to his paper, that wonderful information anachronism...
Eppie Lederer - Ann Landers - died in her Chicago home today of multiple myeloma. Today sucks in Chicago:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-020622landers.story?coll=chi%2Dnews%2Dhed
Fare thee well, Eppie. You were always a classy lady - and I mean lady in the best possible sense.
Regards,
Joseph
JON: Kudos for the tip. I'm actually more interested in finding the HULK issues where Betty was transformed into the Harpy - that was supposed to be lots of fun.
Do with it what you will, for whatever it may be worth: Ahs here. Ahs be here. Just got back in from the palatial mountain estate, where I finished some writing, and now it is on to sorting and reading submissions for a writing competition I am sponsoring.
Speaking of writing: Is there any point whatsoever in asking, nicely, when it comes to editorial guidelines, that people actually READ AND FOLLOW THEM?
Until next time. . .
Scott,
Tell me about it - I live three blocks from Wrigley, and kept wondering why the game hadn't started yet. It was starting to creep me out (wouldn't "delayed for unspecified reasons" do the same to you?)
Regards,
Joseph
TO "OUR" LYNN (who probably won't see this until next week):
Have an absolutely splendiferous wedding day, sweetie.
This is un-freaking-believable:
Darryl Kile, 33 years old, and ace of the Cardinals' pitching staff is dead:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news/20020622/kileobit.html
I'm a bit put off by this one. A mite close in age.
Bag-O-Scott
Since it is so dead, here's a joke. Not for the meek.
Bob, a model maker, was driving home after spending a great day out
on the Ocean fishing. His catch, cleaned and filleted, was wrapped in
newspaper on the passenger side floor. He was late getting home and
was speeding a little...
As he was crossing a bridge, a cop jumped out, radar gun in hand,
and motioned him to the side of the bridge. Bob pulled over like a good
citizen.
The cop walked up to the window and said, "You know how fast you
were going, BOY?" Bob thought for a second and said, "Uh, 60?"
"67 mph, BOY! 67 mph in a 55 zone!" said the cop.
"If you already knew" replied Bob, "why did you ask me?"
Fuming over Bob's answer, the officer growled, "That's speeding, and
you're getting a ticket!"
The cop took a good close look at Bob, in his stained fishing attire and
said, "You don't even look like you have a job! Why, I've never seen
anyone so scruffy in my entire life!"
Bob answered, "I've got a job! I've got a very good job!" The cop
leaned in the window, sniffing the air, and said, "What kind of a job
would a smelly bum like you have?"
"I'm a rectum stretcher!" replied Bob.
"What you say, BOY?" asked the patrolman.
"I'm a rectum stretcher!"
The cop, scratching his head, asked, "What does a rectum stretcher
do?"
Bob explained, "When someone needs to be stretched, I'm the one
who does it. I start with a couple of fingers, then a couple more, and
then one whole hand, then both hands. Then I slowly pull them
farther and farther apart until the rectum is a full six feet across."
The cop, absorbed with this bizarre image in his mind, asked, "What
the hell do you do with a six foot asshole?"
Bob nonchalantly answered, "You give it a radar gun and stick it at
the end of a bridge!"
The Silence of the Webderlanders: Don't read too much into it, Frank and Little Washu. Friday night-Saturday morning usually runs pretty empty. That there are two other 'Webderland' boards (the Art Deco pavillion and, technically, the baseball board) may play into it as well. The Malthusian expansion of Webderland continues.
Hulk matters: If you haven't before, Little Washu, you should try to find the two paperback-size Pocket Books Hulk compilations from the seventies. Sure, you have to read them with a magnifying glass, but they're so cute! My favourite Hulk story is a story from the B&W Rampaging Hulk magazine from the 1970s, a science fantasy story by John Warner, Jim Starlin and Rudy Nebres in which the Hulk gets drafted by a wizard on another planet to help him save the planet. Sounds cheesy, but it ain't -- quite moving, actually. Find that one too, if you can.
Cheers,
Jon
I think I heard a pin drop...
Hey Rick-a-roonie, where's that little word toy you promised me, hmm?
Heather
Too, too quiet....
This board has become stone quiet.
GROUP W
Speaking of selections.. do you remember the "Dear Abby" song?
GROUP W
Ah yes, Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys AND John Prine. Excellent sellections. I used to listen to them play in Austin when I was a kid in the 70s. OUTSTANDING.
Have you seen the Kinkster's articles in Texas Monthly?
He's still off the chart cool.
Cindy
FRANK: Ah, okay then.
JOSEPH: THE INCREDIBLE HULK:THE END is on sale June 26th. When I have a moment I'll see if I can get my shipping address to you.
Thanks!
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
The publishing counsel, Washu.
Little Washu,
I've a great comic store in my neighborhood (Chicago Comics), and I'd be happy to pick you up an extra copy and send it to you. Just send your shipping address to my e-mail. Any idea what day the book is out?
Regards,
Joseph
Call me Ishmael.
You've got to see this:
http://www.mobydickonline.org
(click on "Project")
FRANK: Writers being paid for effort instead of sales? That doesn't sound half-bad...but there's a glaring question. What generates the revenue to pay the writer?
And now, unveiling myself as the Hulkomaniac I truly am...
Living in Bermuda and having second-rate/non-existant comic stores, I am in a state of madness to somehow apprehend Peter David's upcoming HULK story entitled, literally, THE END. It's about the Hulk's last days on a desolate nuclear wasteland. Help would be absolutely divine.
Thanks, LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
JOSEPH: Zimmerman is a screenwriter and a guy who's become a semiregular on the Howard Stern show.
I say "semiregular" because I don't know how often the guy's on; I haven't listened in years.
(He's also apparently good friends with Leno--eh. I prefer Letterman.)
I think of Andrea Yates methodically running after each screaming child to drown them, and it makes my blood go cold every time, but I have the sense to never trust the Government when it comes to crime and punishment. Yates is sick and needs treatment. She may even be better enough to be let out. Susan Smith on the other hand can stay under the jail.
Glen Campbell can pick a mean guitar as well. Don't forget Alan Holdsworth or Satriani. Steve Vai is a mad scientist, as well as the subtle beauty of Carlos Santana. And then there's Tuck Andreas; one bad ass jazz guitarist. And you can never get enough of the father of rock, Chuck Berry. Rick Neilson, from Cheap Trick is highly underrated as well as Robert Fripp. Then we have...ah, forget it.
Alex,
What, is this Ron Zimmerman a celeb of some kind?
As for Cho, you have to love a cartoonist who's willing to take a day off and draw monkeys just for the hell of it. Or try out his new Christmas pens by drawing a heartbreakingly beautiful pen & ink of a woman in a dress, with a skill that would make a fashion illustrator weep.
Anyone seen Cho's Tarzan-style work? Fabulous stuff that reminds me of the greats from the 40's and 50's pulp era.
Regards,
Joseph
Venkman/Alex Jay: No quarrel with either; thanks for the Eisner clarification. Image might be likened to something like Dreamworks -- same studio stuff from a company founded by creative types. Pretty strained anaalogy, I know -- Geffen and Katzenberg aren't really creative types.
Warp Graphics and Aardvark-Vanaheim were relatively early business models for what Image did on a larger (or more mass-cultural) scale, I guess. I would include "semi-professionals" in the timeline, although I'm not crazy on the permutations of the usage if it applies to Rick Griffin or Moscoso or Crumb or S. Clay Wilson or Kim Deitch, any of whom is worth 12 professional Todd McFarlanes, Silvestris or Liefields and a year's supply of Rice-a-roni to boot. Yeah, I know lots of the above-named had problems with ownership et al. over their careers. I'm not fixated on the need for a writer-artist to found his/her own company -- comics companies that don't own what others create for them are fine by me. Crumb's cultural currency and influence are probably greater than all but a small handful of more mass-cult comics creators (Siegel, Shuster, Lee, Kirby). But I'm not entirely sure how Alex Jay defines "semi-professional," so I'm probably musing aloud more than anything.
A friend found the teaching of _Watchmen_ and _Maus_ on a graduate-level pop culture course to be problematic, not because of the quality of the material but because they didn't meet his criteria for pop culture -- no one there had read them before and no one there had heard of them except for remembering news stories on _Maus_ when it first came out. Most comics don't qualify as mass culture anymore -- the readership is too small -- but I'd probably still classify a lot of the material as 'pop culture' just as I'd classify a certain number of recent songs as classic pop songs due to structure and performance even though they failed the basic criterion of actually being popular. Mainly, though, I leave the theorists to posit definitions of mass, pop, high, middlebrow, and yeast culture.
Bad News: Canadian writer Timothy Findley (The Wars, Not Wanted on the Voyage, The Telling of Lies, Famous Last Words, many others) has died at the age of 71. I'd recommend any of the four books above to someone who hasn't read him; he was also a fine speaker, reader of his own work, and writer on writing. His rebuff to the 'appropriation of voice' foofaraw in Canada back in the 1980s and 1990s was also a model of wit and intelligence.
TTFN, Jon
GEE-TAR: One name that seems rather conspicuously absent from our assemblage of picking greats is Chet Atkins.
Now, mark me: I hate, dspise, LOATHE country music.I used to say I only like three country acts: Ray Charles, for the two "Country & Western" albums he did in the Sixties, Emmylou Harris--I may dislike her repertoire, the woman has a voice on loan from God Herself--and Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys.
But Chet Aktins was simply one of the best guitarists ever, and it doesn't matter if he played country, polka, klezmer, or anything: The man was GOOD.
Another plucker of note--though not a guitarist--is fusion jazz artist Bela Fleck. Simply amazing what he does with a banjo.
JOSEPH: Yeah; Zimmerman's work is turning out to be a nice surprise. He's done a good job with Al Kraven (the trust-fund son of Kraven the hunter--NOT the schmuck who ran around as "The Grim Hunter; Al is the younger son and a guy who doesn't care to be a supervillain). He still indulges in too many plugs of his celebrity friends, but I figure he'll grow out of that.
As for Monkey Boy Frank Cho--I've been proselytizing for Liberty Meadows since before the comic-book reprints started. He's a good artist, a funny guy, and nice enough to keep up ongoing dialogues with his fans.
JON: Will Eisner has ALWAYS owned the Spirit. In fact, his studio, with artists like Lou Fine, Reed Crandall, Jules Feiffer, and writers like Manly Wade Wellman, Otto Binder, and others, actually contracted to do several of DC's and other companies' comics long before ideas like Heroes Reborn and Marvel Knights.
The first true creator-owned books? Well, that's sketchy. Do you say Eisner and the Spirit? He didn't really publish them first in comic-book form; they were the newspaper supplements, even though Quality Comics did some reprints and new material in POLICE COMICS and later, the Spirit's own series (and, twenty years later, Warren put out a few issues, with Kitchen Sink doing reprints twenty years after THAT). Do you call Wally Wood's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS or CANNON creator-owned? Wood had a piece of them; not the whole thing. What about Steranko's Seventies noir graphic novel CHANDLER? Or do you stick with the definition of "comic book-as-pamphlet" and say King Kirby's CAPTAIN VICTORY in '81?
Or do you acknowledge semi-pro 'zines? Underground work like that of Crumb and Spiegelman?
It's a dicey thing to define.
What annoyed me about Image is how quickly most of the founders set to building their own work-for-hire bullpens. Granted, they publish some excellent creator-owned work now (Bendis and Oeming's POWERS, Gossett et al's THE RED STAR, ATHENA, INC. by Haberlin and Anacleto, David Mack's KABUKI, and now, even Cho's LIBERTY MEADOWS--but the speed with which they set up their own little fiefdoms put the lie to the ideal of "artistic freedom" and "creator's rights".
Oh--and issue #9 of Jason Lutes' period drama BERLIN came out Wednesday. Pick it up, and pick up the trade paperback collecting the first eight issues, and learn what an amazing medium comics can be for conveying intricate and well-told stories.
---IMPORTANT---
Having gone on for a bit about funnybooks, I think I should point out that there's a comics professional in dire need:
William Messner-Loebs, writer and artist of the well-done historical series JOURNEY as well as writing gigs too numerous to note for the big publishers, is facing some serious trouble: He and his wife, both of whom are handicapped senior citizens, have just lost their home due to financial woes and backstabbing banks, are uninsured healthwise, and are on the verge of joining the homeless.
The info can be found at: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1248
Now, yes; this IS The Comics Journal who first posted this appeal, and yes, the Journal IS filled with an elitist and condescending group of jackasses, and yes, Groth IS an asshole--but none of that negates the fact that a good writer and, apparently, a good guy, is being seriously screwed over by the fickle finger of fate. If we can help save Top Shelf, why can't we help one of our own?
Jon -
You are absolutely right, Image wasn't the first. However, I was trying to draw the comparison between studio "shop" system and the Marvel/DC system of paying scale to artists and writers who were, in reality, creators of the most profitable characters in their library. If you were an independent creator, odds are you were stuck in specialty shop market while Spiderman and Superman were in every drug store in the universe. It took collective publishing and a creative "FU" to the Big 2 to get creator rights paid to artists in the Big 2.
Tim-
Start with...
http://www.harlanellison.com/bib/storylist.htm
Luke Skywalker is a Nerd and Darth Vader Sucks Runny Eggs - Essay, 1977 Collected: Yes
First Appearance: Los Angeles, August 1977
Harlan Ellison's Watching (First Series): 2nd Installment
Books where piece appears:
Harlan Ellison's Watching - Essay Collection, 1989
Happy hunting.
Venkman: Hmm. I just realized that I'm fuzzy as to who owns _The Spirit._ That memory loss aside, you can look to the companies that predate Image that offered true creators' rights and ownership, you could look at _The First Kingdom_ or _Elfquest_ or _Cerebus_ or a bunch of others, you could look at WAP, at Miller and Moore leaving DC in the late 1980s. And so on, and so forth. Image certainly showed that readers and collectors would follow artists wherever they went. Holding it up as the first true "revolt" does disservice to a lot of people who came before Liefield, McFarlane, Silvestri and the other three and places a bit too much emphasis on superheroes as the center of the comics universe.
Cheers, Jon
Jon -
Image was the first revolt against the "big 2" publisher-owned price-control sweatshop of artists, proving that guys like McFarlane, Lee, Leifield (sp?)and the other founders could thrive in the wilderness without the big protective umbrella of Stan Lee or W/B. And, while I thank you for the disclaimer, I don't mind corrections or contradictions. They are expected and, unless I read "Venk, why don't you f%&k off!" I assume it's done with best intentions. :)
Joseph -
Venk love Cho and his monkey. Venk love Brandi. Venk love it ALL... (I like Soloman Grundy, too.)
Cindy -
I think the difference between Nazis and Psychomom is that enough self-righteous and dependent personalities allowed themselves to be convinced by a small group of psychotics that killing non-Aryans was not only okay, but noble. They supported each other and wrote into their faith and politics the righteousness of killing those who opposed them or threatened the purity of the race. Andrea Yates just had a fucking demon living in her meninges squeezing her brain into new shapes until she felt justified in killing her babies. Daddy seemed a little too concerned with keeping it all together, maintaining order and avoiding problems to see it or do something about it.
I don't know how it is in other households, but when my fiance is having even the slightest of bad days I know about it...in the most minute detail. This guy had a homicidal wife and left her alone to teach and care for them and didn't care to intervene.
"A letter to the editor in response, among other things, accused HE of being jealous since none of his work had made it to film."
What the hell? What does STAR WARS have ANYTHING to do with Harlan's work, for the love of God? And what gave him the impression Harlan's so desperate to turn his stories into celluloid?
Clueless.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
On the topic of barbs from Mr. Ellison...
I don't mind going bald, I just wish that when the hair leaves it wouldn't take chunks of my memory. That is to explain why I can't give an exact date/source for what is my favorite Ellison barb.
Harlan wrote a less than flattering review of the original Star Wars movie. A letter to the editor in response, among other things, accused HE of being jealous since none of his work had made it to film. The magazine also included the response to the letter from Harlan that started with the sentence: It is difficult to respond to the chittering of fools.
On guitarist...
I'll make the pitch for bluegrass guitarists Tony Rice or Doc Watson. My problem is I like the acoustic instruments (except fiddle) and I like the harmony vocals but I hate the twang/whine. Still, being selective there is some amazing music in that genre.
Venkman:
As tone is often an issue in web-life, a caveat beforehand: this is not a 'you're an idiot! I crush your head!' corrective statement, so please don't take it as such.
Image didn't "start" creator-owned publishing in comics. It certainly helped show that it was viable for superhero stuff, but it didn't start it -- not by a long shot.
Cheers, Jon
P.S. Mark Knopfler. _Local Hero_?
Whoever was showing his appreciation for Frank Cho: SING IT TO THE CHOIR, BROTHER!
Liberty Meadows is a favorite of mine. And, if you want to see on of my desires fulfilled, pick up the Ultimate Spider-Man Annual #1, where Cho does Spidey and Elektra. Fabulous work.
As for fabulous AND funny work, pick up Spider-Man: Sweet Charity, out this week. So funny, my wife kept looking over and asking me "Ae you all right?" I can't even describe the hilarity of Kraven Jr bidding to make Spidey and Jameson spend a weekend camping together. It's just beautiful.
Regards,
Joseph
I don't believe in parole for violent offenders. I think if a person ATTEMPTS to murder someone in an unjustifiable situation that the punishment should be the same as for those who have been effective and NONE of them should ever get out of prison alive-- one way or another.
In the Andrea Yates case, I would like to buy the part about mental illness and how insane she was at the moment that she dragged those babies into the water and held them under until they ceased to struggle ( except for the baby, she said, who wasn't strong enough to fight). Just because she pre-planned the five murders and waited until her husband was gone to work and before her mother-in-law showed up to help her with the children ( one hour after the husband left) didn't make her any less crazy.
But tell me this... how is what she did so different from the monsters in Germany and what they did? Of COURSE they would have to be insane--- ANYBODY capable of doing such unspeakable acts MUST be mentally ill-- right?? But who would argue that a lethal injection would be too good for ANY of the Nazi members who participated no matter how peripherally?
I WANT to see a distinction, some difference that I can set my cleats in--- but I keep coming back to evil being evil and justice being justice. In the one case she said that Satan told her to do it... she chose to obey, even though she said she knew it was wrong. On the other mitt Hitler told his insane minions to do it and THEY chose to obey.
Is it just me, or does it seem like tomato, toomahto?
Somebody help me out here because I am struggling with justice as opposed to compassion it seems as though the two are diametrically opposed in these situations.
Rick:
Mr. Knopfler is not absent from my collection. Neither are Mr. Hendrix, nor Mr. Beck, nor Mr. Parkening (I don't limit myself to one style)...
I cannot add invective to that of Our Gracious Host. That would be superfluous.
However, Grendel pushed one of my "you ignorant f*&)(^)!!g bastard" buttons. It's one that gets pushed a lot by the less perceptive of the hard-core netizens--and that's a very high standard of "less perceptive."
ISPs are NOT the phone company, or any other common carrier. If they were:
* their rates would be regulated
* there would be government oversight of their service record
* they would not be allowed to refuse service to anyone on any ground other than inability to pay
* they would be universally available (or at least required to try to be universally available), and
* they would be required to be absolutely interoperable with all hardware and software standards, which in turn would be set by outside bodies and not overcaffeinated and undersexed programmers who assume that everyone else will want to play the way they do.
Those tiny little restrictions are the price that a common carrier pays for its exemption from liability for content. The last time I checked (which was this morning), AOL has NONE of those restrictions.
So, aside from the complete disjuncture of the ISP-is-a-common-carrier argument and reality, there is nothing wrong with Grendel's argument that Our Gracious Host didn't point out. Or with Grendel, for that matter, who doesn't seem to have too firm a grasp on reality herself.
Oh, Grendel--I think I hear your mother calling... and I'm not going to get close enough to her to look. Unless I've got a mirror-polished shield handy.
...and yet, the name "Mark Knopfler" remains curiously absent...
I'll throw out some names not yet mentioned. John Prine, Gil Scott-Heron, Leo
Kottke, Tom Verlaine, Jeff Beck, Buddy Guy. Maybe even Steve Tibbits. Robbie Robertsons
"Songs for the Native American" is exquisite.
As for the ladies, Patti Smith, Joan Armatrading, Bonnie Raitt, Ricki Lee Jones,
Suzanne Vega and Liz Story get playtime here, to name a few. Shannon Curfman has an amazing
voice and has already played with Santana, Mayall and K W Shepard, to name a few. Susan
Tedeshchi intrigues me, as does James McMurtry.
And to keep from going on endlessly, John Lee Hooker is timeless.
Salaried artists with no ownership of their products?
That's why there's a union, agents and an incredible amount of green being served to an elite few in Hollywood. You can't corral talent evenly, expect to build a following for an actor, writer, musician, singer or whatever without someone offering a better deal down the road. The only way to avoid this is saddling someone with a fixed lifetime contract.
It works for the business world, where every document, every procedure or system I develop becomes the property of my handlers, but that's because my personality and talents don't have hundreds of thousands of fans wanting my picture on lunchboxes, buying tickets to my home movies or lining up to have me sign their breasts. That'd all be nice, but I think it would make for a pretty weird world. Of course, even business has great talent, but you gotta be talking about big deal-makers and money-takers, or the top .1% of the industry.
Comics worked the bullpens for decades and it lead to the creation of "Image" comics and the beginning of the creator-owned system of publishing. Now everybody's making money!
On Andrea Yates -
So Russell leaves his clearly troubled wife for work. He still trusts her to teach them, even though she's a little depressed. He gets to work, gets a call from Andrea who's distant and cold. He, by his account of the call, KNOWS something's happened to the kids. A few hours later, he's holding a national press conference. Either the guy has the emotional discipline of a Vulcan or he's as nuts as his wife.
Lynn - I agree she's troubled. She's sick. But what happens if, five years or ten years down the road, she's "cured" or at least feeling much, much better. Should she be released from the asylum and allowed to breed again? If she's locked away in an asylum, she'll be dtrapped to a bed, chatted to, injected with mood-altering drugs, and get to play Legos and Lincoln Logs with other troubled folks. I guess that's a little better than getting tossed in a cell and ritually beaten by other inmates or knocked up by a guard.
I'm most disturbed by Russell. He just played it way too cool on the day of the murders. I don't trust a man who can have his kids drowned in a bathtub by his own wife and still hold a press conference on his front lawn.
If anything sounds the death knell for Daredevil the movie, it's this pair of pictures featuring Bullseye and Kingpin.
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news.htm
I tolerated the fetish biker DD suit, the Fredericks of Newark Elektra, but Bullseye looking like the lead singer from Creed shaved his head and started a cult just kills it all. Kingpin ain't bad but....and let me say this delicately... THAT AIN'T FRIGGIN KINGPIN!!!!
Though there's a nice bit about Dreamcatcher in there, too...
Frank: Michael Albert is living in dreamland if he thinks Parecon would create a fair society. Who decides the makeup of the democratic councels who make the all-important votes? How can avarice, greed, favoritism, and pork-politics be excluded from such councels? It hasn't worked in our own so-called democratic system. How is abolishing copyrights fair practice?
Someone creates a work of art and it's unfair for them to hold a copyright? There's a glaring flaw in Mr. Albert's Parecon.
R.Wilder
R Wilder: no argument that Frank, Lou and many others have always played guitar in their bands. My rant was that sometime in the early 80s, a lot of these guys suddenly decided that that was the reason we should now buy their albums...for their guitar playing.
Why this need developed for artists acknowledged as accomplished songwriters to now be perceived as instrumentalists is an open question. Perhaps the guitar bands were getting first dibs on all those new hot 80s girls.
Zappa, and his press machine, were foremost in adapting this new image, and the posts on this board indicate he was successful. My objection started with seeing him listed with B.B. King and DJango Reinhardt as examples of guitar legends.
Having a raging debate with, Michael Albert, who is a leftist author and maintainer of the Zmag website. He makes the claim that writers and other artists should be paid salaries instead of paid by sales. He promotes an idea called, Parecon, which is an economic system that believes in balanced work places and an end to ownership in all aspects of buisiness. He believes that all jobs should be decided by democratic councels that vote on wages, hires, workplace hours, etc. Writers would apply like any other job and be paid for effort, not for sales of books. Book sales would go back into the tax stream, I'd surmise. Albert claims that a balanced work status would make for a fair society; where no one is better than anyone else. A writer would basically just be another worker, who would have to do other jobs as well, because of the balanced work place.
Any thoughts on this? I just don't see this system as possible. I am a radical, but this may be too radical for my tastes.
He is also for abolishing copyrights, because copyrights are about private ownership, which he is against.
Just finished the introduction for HOUSE OF LEAVES. Very creepy, really-gets-under-your-skin stuff, but the first sentence is still jammed in my mind:
THIS IS NOT FOR YOU.
I swear that was one of the first times I ever double-taked while reading a book.
By the way, for anyone remotely interested - the first official image of Michael Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin can be seen over at www.darkhorizons.com/news.htm.
So. Um...well. I think he should lose the cigar, but overall Duncan looks pretty damn snazzy. What do youse guys think?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Re: Andrea Yates. She and her husband were also hardcore Christian Fundamentalists, she was home-schooling her children
even after she had been diagnosed with psychological/emotional problems, and apparently he was an "old-fashioned" fellow in his views on women and their place in the family. There's more at play here than mental illness.
R.Wilder
Warning: Long Post! If disinterested, kindly disregard.
Venk, Helz & Lynn:
How to talk from my perspective on the issue of Andrea Yates, and the horrific fate her children experienced, gods, that's one that requires the wisdom of Solomon to discern a correct (if there is one) answer.
Funny, but the first time Mel and I saw the face of this creature who'd taken the lives of her children in such a manner, one that, at first report of the deed, unleashed total disgust and rage from the parent in us. When we saw her face, both of us stood a moment, and I felt my world suddenly shift.
Mel said "Joel" aloud, and I nodded.
The same vacuuous stare, the shuffling feet, the head cast downwards, the lips moving perceptibly, as a monk would at prayers, all of it there. God, I was so struck at the image on the tv I nearly cried. It was my brother's face, just before he disappeared.
It complicates matters when circumstances force you to have to see the humanity of a person who could bring about something so venal. I don't justify or defend what she did; my own opinion of mentally ill people who engage in violent crime is to sentence them as one would a sane person who commits the act, but place them in a psychiatric prison facility, enabling treatment if possible. Then, as any other person who commits a criminal act they would be able to receive parole, subject to criteria set by both society and the legal system that is sufficiently balanced to protect the person's rights, and society's need to be safe.
But what to do when the act is as brutal as this? I'm sorry, but even as a person who has had a front-row seat to what schizophrenia can do to a soul, this stretches the limits of compassion and civility almost to the breaking point. I can't think of greater punishment than what she would experience in memories of her actions, should anything vaguely resembling lucidity be restored. But, in the same breath, the act against her children must be answered to. She, and her husband must answer to their lack of responsibility, resulting in massive tragedy.
First and foremost, treatment options were available to her. Granted, she had a schizo-affective disorder, which impairs logic and judgment, but through the comparative of my brother's experience I can recall that, even in the throes of terrible psychotic breaks, there were occasions when my brother was able to understand and vocalize that something wasn't right. He himself checked himself into a hospital, experiencing severe symptoms on two occasions. Second, newer psychotropic medications, such as Cloazil, Seroquel and Risperadone are far more potent in their abilities to arrest severe symptoms; even those considered too chronicly ill for previous generations of anti-psychotics respond well to these medications. Yes, the US health-care system is based on a for profit model, but Medicare and Medicaid would've paid for prescriptions, if the family couldn't themselves.
Now, to the husband. He doesn't stand far from failure to respond himself. Sorry to return to my brother's circumstance as comparison, but I, and to a lesser degree Mel, became his primary care givers (That assertion is based on the total amount of time spent with Joel. It doesn't speak to the immense amount of Mel's love and patience given freely to my brother). One couldn't be around a person who is experiencing mental illness without the signs of severely abberant behaviour becoming evident at a glance. The husband cannot tell me that he didn't know that something of immense gravity was about to occur, it isn't possible to miss the signs; agitation, outbursts or anger, nonsensical talk both in content and syntax (commonly known as word salad), or complete silence, near or total withdrawl, even to the point where the sufferer sequesters themselves from the world, often to discuss their problems with unseen hallucinations. It can't be missed, there's just no way.
Where was he to intercede, to get her to the treatment she obviously needed? Where was he, to get her to take medication? The primary care giver has rights to involuntarily hospitalize those who are a risk to themselves or others; the US health system doesn't refuse any person needing psychiatric treatment a bed, even if it's just to allow them time to try to think things through.
Well, this has turned into quite a long post, so I'll close it here, to allow others to enjoy whatever thread they wish. I guess I can only sum up for now that responsibility begins at home. I can only hope that some form of investigation into this could bring to light all the failures, both personal and societal, and help those in the future.
BOS
The croquette was a tiny featherless chicken that was native to an area of France near Paris. Particularly vigorous, the croquette was served with leeks, cream, plucked drupes and fermented cud, and was a favorite dish of absinthe swilling dipsomaniacs. The bibbers purportedly broke out in raucous coughs, mistaken for an old song whose refrain goes, "Ack ack ack." Wednesday was croquette day all around the city of lights for many a year, because old Woden masturbated rains of chickens. As Paris became Americanized with the McDonalds Urine Arches rising, the wee croquette became McNuggets grindcore.
R."Fuckin'ZappaRules"Wilder
Venkman & Lynn,
Russell Yates isn't necesarily sick, he's avoiding taking his share of responsibility for what happened. He brought those five children into the world, and he ignored all the warning signs. Now he thinks it's better to consider five dead children in the abstract, as if their deaths were some "act of God" rather than the specific criminal acts of a desperately ill woman.
Worse -- Andrea Yates is exactly the sort of person who would hook up with a guard and end up pregnant again. I shudder at the tought of that scenario...
Justin, it wouldn't work -- the imagined mouth-breather in question probably wouldn't know what "croquettes" are...
Matthew Davis's comments re: Zappa, on "One Size Fits All," reminds me of a Frank tune where he plays unison lines with horn players (it might be from Weazels Ripped My Flesh). Bad guitarist?
R.Wilder
Just read Harlan's last post. Those barbs are the stuff of legend. I'll have to file a few of those away for personal use. One day some punk ass is going to "step to me," or maybe try to pinch my lady's hindquarters or somesuch, and I'll say to this slack-jawed goon, I'll say, "If brains were Sunday chicken dinner, your portion would be Wednesday's croquettes!" And in the pause between the moment that look of blind puzzlement crawls onto his face and the time I start kicking him in the nuts, I'll say, "Copyright 2002, Kilamanjaro corporation!" Then my lady will swoon and we'll head back to her apartment.
Venkman~ This is a classic case of misunderstood mental illness. The woman is sick. The woman doesn't need to be in a prison, she needs to be hospitalized. If he'd recognized that sooner, maybe he'd still have a family.
The whole thing turns my stomach.
L.
Andrea Yates drowned five of her kids this time last year.
Her husband, Russell, is on CNN saying how the conviction of his wife was unfair and "really hurt our family."
MORE THAN YOUR WIFE, you sanctimonious jackass?????
Zappa was always a quite nifty guitar player, almost from the very start, vide the heavy charms of "My Guitar Wants to Kill your Mama". _Hot Rats_ has the wakk-wakka improv of "Son of Mr. Green Genes". And "One Size Fits All" has solss which are so good that when i first heard them I thought they were part of the scored music. You say you don't like "sit Down and Play Your Guitar" have you listened to "Joe's Garage" and the bautiful "Watermelon in Easter" Throughour his career zappa kept changing the style of his soles, so that if you don't like what's on offer in '69, you might like '75, or 79 or 84.
re intellectual masturbation. "Don't knock masturbation. It's the thinking man's television". - Christopher hampton. "The Philanthropist"
ATTENTION!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!ALL MEMBERS OF WEBDERLAND PARK ASSEMBLE!!!!!!!
I interrupt my lunch hour to sit at a public library terminal for a bit of Webderland Park roto leagues business. Todd (in his never-ending quest to be a pain in the ass; kidding, kidding!) has accidentally raised a concern warranting the attention of the active owners in the league. Would all please go to the league site and vote on the question I've posted at the message board there? I'll keep the polls open until Saturday, to give time for all to voice their opinions. Note: no butterfly ballots, please!
You may now return to verbally slashing the Razler...ain't dismemberment by intellect fun?
Bag-O-Scott, proud to say that the Patriot Act has no effect on the democratic process at Webderland Park, but advises owners that the infield fly rule is still in effect; all violators will be shot.
Eric: Zappa played guitar on "Freak Out" the first Mother's of Invention released in 1966, and recorded the "Muffin Man" solo in 1975. So you are mistaken if you think that he decided to dally with the instrument with the guitar instrumental release of 1982. Also, Lou Reed didn't decide to pick up the instrument late in his career either; he was strumming with the Velvet Underground, contributing a scalding solo on "I Heard Her Call My Name" back in 1967(For that alone I place him in the Guitar God Pantheon).
R.Wilder
>Did someone actually open their trap and say that Zappa was a bad guitarist?<
That was me, Frankie Lee. And I'll stand by my trap. Zappa was a composer and performer of immense talent, and a fun guy to have around as well (anyone see the recent VH1 movie about Tipper Gore and the record industry? Zappa was well-portrayed by Griffin Dunne.)
BUT, being a Very Important Part of Rock Music's Development doesn't necessarily qualify for you guitar god status. Zappa was like many other (male) singer-songwriters who rose to fame in the 60s or 70s, and then, suddenly, decided that they were guitar heroes as well. I dunno, maybe they thought that in the hard-ass Reagen years, it was a wee bit too pansy just to be quatrain poet. Frank wasn't alone in this sudden desire to be seen as a master of the fretboard: Lou Reed, Ric Ocasek, and others traditionally hailed as "writers" were now presenting themselves, and their work, as guitarist.
So, back around 82, Frank forced his own record company to market a three-album indulgence called "Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar," which was designed as both manna for the I-always