**Making a decision based on a gut feeling is a very important skill, even for Ph.D's. The fact of the matter is that not every situation you get into will allow you the time or the resources to research all possible outcomes. Sometimes being able to make a decision based on gut feel alone comes in very handy. **
Sure it does. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing issue, though.
Empirical reason need not breed automatons. There are no Spocks in real life. The most rational person in the world still needs to make decisions every day with less information than he or she would like to have.
That doesn't mean you can't still try to observe and analyze the facts as best you can and make what you consider to be the most logical decision.
My mechanic may be able to listen to my engine and intuitively know exactly what's wrong with it. The intuition is based largely on his own experiences and knowledge, though. However, if he can't tell just by the sound, I would very much prefer he use rational methods to isolate the problem. I'd much rather see him use more standard diagnostic tools than a ouija board.
If I'm having bad headaches, I would greatly prefer my doctor to recommenda CATscan before considering trepanning as a treatment option.
Kerry- Now that was an evil thing to do - fairly challenging me with a story idea so that it bounces around in my head and insists on being relayed through my fingertips. I've spent the last hour tapping out the story and have finally finished, eyes threatening to shut on me. E-mail me if ya wanna see what you caused! *hee*
--Dotty
--Zoë Rose
Cindiana Jones,
Got the screenplay, safe and sound. It'll be a week before I can read it, then I'll dive in.
Chuck
Rich~ I think you hit the nail on the head with the 'path of least resistance' argument.
Lurk~ You ever work in retail? You'll get over that 'people aren't stupid' trip in a heartbeat. Very soon after, you'll realize that by merely intellectualizing such concepts, you yourself are one of the very elitists you claim to despise. Now, go work on a budget and get over yourself. You think too much.
Chris~ Book learning goes a long way. Street smarts go a long way too. Making a decision based on a gut feeling is a very important skill, even for Ph.D's. The fact of the matter is that not every situation you get into will allow you the time or the resources to research all possible outcomes. Sometimes being able to make a decision based on gut feel alone comes in very handy. That being said, I think expecting politicians (who jig and jive on the latest poll like a dead man twisting on the gallows tree) to make informed decisions is just silly. George Dubya makes the motions with his mouth because some puppet master has a hand up his ass. If you watch, sometimes you can even see his words synch up with his lips. His decisions don't prevent scientists from doing their research either in this country illegally or in other countries, just as his opinions don't prevent me from practicing my faith (unless of course I'm in the military, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms).
And if you're an skeptic and an elitist, what the fuck are you doing moving to La La Land? This town is all about plastic - who's got it in their wallet, who's got in their face, who's got it in their ass.
Rich pt2~ I wish Webderland had a mirror for these quotes: "Power, like drugs and penises, can be abused." Classic, my friend. Right up there with one of our all time favorites, "Well, it's hardly the first time I've been on fire."
L.
XANADU
What grammatical impropriety? I recently saw some bone head place adversity where aversion belonged!
God what an IDIOT I felt like! Errr I mean, what an idiot she looked like.
lol!
You, Sir, have no reason to apologize about a miniscule grammatical faux pas. WE ALL know that you KNOW what is what.
Your friend,
Cindy
PS I'm elbow deep in rewrite # 8 and finding more and more to help me in your notes. I feel like you just gave me a bigger box of colors-- 64 crayons to work with rather than the 24 I had previously believed to be all I needed. Thanks again, buddy.
Actually, Kerry, I'm pretty sure I don't agree with Lurk at all. In fact, I'm quite sure of it. And while it's absolutely nothing personal toward Lurk to whom I bear no ill will whatsoever, I wouldn't want it to be thought I agreed with him at all.
The whole "you all agree, you just have different points of view" is just another brand of the intellectual relativism I feel is far too prevalent in our society.
There's a right and a wrong. We don't always know which is which but sometimes we do. The obsession with "acknowledging everyone's point of view" is just new-age, P.C. nonsense.
All IMHO, of course.:)
Thanks Heather,
That sounds like the same advice I gave her. I appreciate it.
:)
Alex Jay Berman,
My mom worked for the Veteran's Administration.. that's part of the irony that she's a deceased veteran's widow. She's been through the EEO and they haven't done much. The Union wimped out too. Maybe it's hard for some people to get fired up about defending the rights of a little old lady. When the bastards got her alone in their office to fire her they wanted her to sign something and she said she wouldn't sign anything. She said she intended to fight it.
Jim Davis,
THANK YOU.
:)
HELZ,
I told her what you said and I think it gave her heart. I'm with you, the documentation is enough to sink a barge.
LITTLE WASHU,
THANK YOU TOO! I am now dying to see THE LAST LAUGH.
:)
ALEX KRISLOV
I hope you're wrong. Boy, do I hope you're wrong on this one.
But I do understand the truth in what you wrote.
GUNTHER, ROB, JAY AND XANADU, I Love you all for being so sweet.
THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!!!
Cindy
"My science phone conversation of the week"
Me: So then the other person at the table said, "I was surprised. I thought the fifth element was boron. That, and the movie sucked."
Friend who has a doctorate: Well, I guess it would be, alphabetically.
Me: Hunh?
FWHAD: Boron's the fifth element alphabetically. The periodic table's arranged alphabetically, right?
Me: Didn't you take chemistry in high school?
FWHAD: No. I didn't take any science after Grade Nine. My math's really bad, too.
Oh, well. At least we got to discuss elements for ten minutes.
Jon
Chris L,
It's true, I have attacked "reason" to make my tepid point. But I'm not really against reason. I'm against being against unreason. I know that many here froth when they hear someone stand up and say humans descended from angels, not apes. So be it. But I froth when I hear "reason" put forth as the smug, oh-so-obvious answer to everything. It DOESN'T serve one every time, although it certainly is nice to have around.
But let's give the commons a break, when they turn to the psychic phonelines or go to Whitley Streiber seminars. They are not, finally, the problem. They are not the ones who will send your sons to Iraq or stripmine your hillside. I'd say the rage is better directed at the ones who should know better, not the ones who don't know at all.
Chris L and Lurk
I have to agree with Lynn here. In your efforts to make your points, and hardening your resolve to do so, you seem to be receding from the fact that you basically agree with each other. I think you just look at it from different points of view.
Joseph Finn
Thank you for the information regarding the Nebula Awards
Zoe dot dot
Astronomy, astrology and the alignments of three planets affecting the sleep of children. To me it sounds like a story waiting to be written.
Rich
Your version of the chair analogy reminds me of a real example, that of wearing a baseball cap backwards. I know they dont do a good job of keeping the sun off anyway, but backwards is just silly.
Random Musings from my chair
Kerry
Lurk,
You buy into the same false dichotomy so many others do.
Valuing reason does not make a person heartless or unimaginative. I embrace the scientific method but I am awed by the sight of the setting sun on a breezy May evening in the Badlands of South Dakota.
I hear echoes of your sentiment in my baseball work. It usually takes the form of "Why don't you eggheads stop studying numbers and watch a game every now and then?" As if analyzing something means a person can't enjoy it the way it's meant to be enjoyed.
Isaac Asimov was a genius and a great man of reason. He also took the time to collect some of the best and some of the lamest jokes in the world in his Treasury of Humor.
Reason doesn't preclude joy. Science is not the enemy of the emotions. You've set up a straw man here and you're getting nowhere with it.
Chris L,
I don't know about "intellectual relativism," but I doubt I embrace it. What I do embrace, and where you and I clearly differ, is that I don't necessarily want the "best and the brightest" in charge of everything. The best and the brightest, in my experience, are just as likely to fuck up as anyone else, and if they've been sanctified by society as being the best, and it's gone to their heads, which it usually does, they're even more likely to screw up on a scale that is often difficult to undo.
I have enough faith in the final authority of the human heart to not panic if the cranks and the wackos occasionally get their turn at the wheel. I can't imagine anything more boring (and probably dangerous) than a society run by eminently reasonable men and women. A kingdom of logicians, all markedly qualified in their highly-specialized fields...hey, maybe we'll even genetically engineer them someday.
That is the final turn in your utopia, Chris. A people free from the motivations of murder, chaos, and orgy. No more dancing round the maypole, no more blessings of baptism, no more divine madness. These things, should they fund your imagination, are just as valid as the big fat facts everyone is trumpeting as manna when informing your decisions.
So I'll take the warlock over the engineer anyday. I've seen the society Encyclopedia Man built these past 100 years, and I think the crystal fools could do nothing but help it.
I think the world's days are limited as I will now seek to defend Frank's use of the word "herd" and basically, jump all up and down on Lurk, a denizen of webderland I usually find intelligent (but, not at the moment).
It appears Lurk doesn't like the word "elitism" as it conjures up images of people abusing power and/or not using their intelligence or reason for the right...um...reasons. Given a choice between choosing the herd (those that go along with the rest of society without bothering to think of the consequences) or the elitists (those that gather the facts and come to a conclusion without worrying what everyone else is doing), I'm choosing the elitists every single time.
Look: Most people are not stupid. Some will beg to differ on this point, but most people are not stupid. People, like fluids, will take the path of least resistance. If it's easier to go along with everyone else and not cause waves or rock the boat or (insert cliche here) then most folks will do that. They don't have time to worry about the difference between astrology or astronomy because how is that going to help pay the bills? People aren't stupid, they're just lazy.
The elitists will take the time to figure out the difference between astrology and astronomy because it may not pay the bills, but it gives them knowledge. And as Saturday morning Schoolhouse Rocks taught me, knowledge is power. Power, like drugs and penises, can be abused, but for the most part, I think the elitists of the world are trying to work at separating themselves from the herd and trying to use their knowledge to tell us that astrology is superstition and has nothing to do with our lives whereas astronomy lets us know our place in the universe.
So, Lurk, I think identifying the herd is not a bad thing. Contrary to popular opinion some of us are better than others as mediocrity appears to be the norm. You don't have to work at being mediocre so I have no problems being associated with elitism.
One last thing. Lurk sarcastically mentions that the world would be a better place if we just used reason to govern ourselves. I would agree with that statement minus the sarcasm. The world would indeed be a better place if we used reason to govern ourselves. Just because we make decisions based on our gut (and I'm assuming you're not being ironic when you state that "we regret half of them later"; you don't include Bush's "gut" call as being one those regretful decisions?) doesn't mean we shouldn't rule out reason because in the end, reason will always serve you.
Xanadu,
You're welcome. I'm gonna use it 'til I can't use it no more.
Holy crud - please ignore the complete lack of grammatical ability exhibited by my last post...
rich: Thank's for keeping my little conceit alive - I laugh evry time someone mentions it...
Lurk,
I used the term "intellectual relativism" before and it seems to me it's something you fully embrace.
I hate to tell you this but there really are people in the world who know better than other people. Chances are overwhelming I know morethan you do about baseball. It is even more certain (as in 100%) that Stephen Hawking knows more about astronomy than I do.
My opinion on astronomy or related issues is NOT as good as Dr. Hawking's. It is inferior. If I take one position and he says I'm wrong, I'm willing to bet the bank that he's in the right. Why? He knows better. He's smarter and he has the facts.
Who do I want making the decisions in the world? The best and the brightest. The most qualified. That doesn't mean only academicians and intellectuals. The best and brightest person to make a decision about my car is my mechanic. He needs to decide what to do when fixing my car, not me. I don't know enough. I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the skill. I don't have the facts. He does.
I am definitely an elitist by that standard. I think that for any particular issue, most people are completely unqualified to offer a useful opinion or to make a decision. I'd still support their right to do it under most circumstances but that's not the optimal strategy for a functioning society.
On Astrology: My main problem with 'beliefs' like that of astrology is that it completely puts the blame or praise on events we can't control - celestial stuff. I suppose that really is like any religion... I suppose that's why I'm not real religious.
For the most part, I figure let people have fun with what they want to believe. Personally? Doesn't do it for me. But hey, whatever floats their boats.
Warning- Going off on a tangent...
MY problem with it is that people don't know the difference between astrology and astronomy, nor do many care. I work in a planetarium, and it's hard to keep a straight face when answering the questions of the chaperoning parents of a third grade class: "So I heard on the news that there are three planets in the sky right now. When they align will that affect the children's dreams?" Or some such nonsense.
It's even harder to answer the question that I've gotten from more adults than kids, when the lights are all out and the stars are up: "Ok, so where's Earth?"
People often come up to me after star shows and ask if I'm an astrologer. It takes a long time to convince them I'm not an astrologer at all, nor do I take any stock in what astrology says.
Believe what makes you happy, I say - but don't let it dumb you to the point of not understanding simple things like the difference between astronomy and astrology - though both are highly theoretical, at least one of makes an attempt to explain things.
Sorry 'bout the rant. The astrology thing just gets on my nerves sometimes.
--Zoë Rose
>When a President who doesn't know anything about the subject determines national policy regarding cloning, people might die.<
I'm gonna defend the usually defenseless here, and cast my vote of appreciation that Dubya is making a decision based on his own moral compass. Whether or not you think it's a stupid decision, sometimes people make the calls from their gut, not from the balance sheet of facts and figures. Bush feels cloning is immoral for his own and his consituency's spiritual reasons. That must be respected. That's actually leadership, from one who is generally considered unable to lead.
A big step towards balance is understanding that reason in the end doesn't always serve you. I'd wager that any of the really important life decisions made by anyone here were completely devoid of reason. That's why we regret half of them later...
>My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place<
Elitism. It's both cozy and happily isolating, isn't it, to believe that one is a member of the select few who THINK. And it's sure easy to shake our heads at the witless saps who don't require EVIDENCE at every turn.
Unfortunately, elitists are often on the sidelines of history, doing nothing but bitching about how stupid everyone is and if we just used REASON all of our problems would be solved.
Um, Frank, once the conversation moves into the realm of calling people "herds," I back out. Herds usually require pens, and thinking one is grander than the sheep leads to delusions, and occasionally, if one has power, actions. You're in good company with history there.
I can just imagine what things would be like if the we the denizens of Webderland ran the world. Corraling those thinkless herds, so to speak. Judging from the weekly flame wars on this board, we see little more than a lot of screaming about how stupid everyone is and if we just used REASON all of our problems....never mind.
I'm gonna have to go with Lynn on this one: You boys are preaching to the choir.
"That chair is made to sit on."
"Yeah, but some people sit on it backards."
"They're entitled to sit on it any way they please."
"Yeah, but the chair is made for people to sit properly; what'll happen if everyone turns their chair around and starts sittin' on 'em backards?"
"They'll be comfortable?"
"Well, reasonable people sit aright."
"Sittin' backards don't hurt me none."
"Well, pretty soon people wanna be leanin' in 'em, too. Then where will we be? That's right. Them legs'll get weak and won't be right for sittin' right nohow."
Thanks to the Chair Analogy as the hole it's in continues to get deeper.
Chris: " My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place."
They never did, at any point in our history. And to cap it off, they likely never will. Most people don't WANT to think - and you can lead them horses to all the scientific/rational water you wish and they will refuse to take that drink.
This is not to say we shouldn't strive to educate all who are willing, but don't despair too seriously because most prefer idiocy.
Chris, you have an affecting effect on me.
Jim,
Affect/Effect still drives me ape shit.
I don't think I'll ever figure it out.
It's my kryptonite.
Lynn,
Sure I want people to think for themselves. My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place. Either through their own inability or through a fault in their education, they were never given the tools to properly evaluate the world in which they live, how to separate fact from fiction, science from nonsense.
Oops. I meant to write "the stars in their courses DO affect us," not "effect." (See, David--I'm hardly a grammar maven, either.)
NOW it's time for dinner.
Chris~ So what you're saying is you want people to stop being sheep and think for themselves, yes? Take a number, the line forms to the left.
Jim~ Don't track mud on the carpet, keep your hands to yourself, and make sure to say thank you to the nice Mr. Wyatt for letting you make a mess of his livingroom.
::sigh::
L.
It's all about proof. Evidence.
The problems crop up when people base their decisions on something other than evidence.
It's an attitude I (and everyone else) encounter(s) every day.
"Willie Mays was hurt by his home park. He'd have hit more home runs than Aaron if he played somewhere else - that was a terrible ballpark."
"But Mays hit more home runs at home than on the road. And his Giants' teammates as well as their opponents hit just about as many home runs there as they did on the road. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest it was a bad home run park."
"I don't care about any of that - I know what I saw. That was a terrible home run park."
Now that's pretty harmless. Nobody is likely to be harmed because somebody makes a mistake in their perception of a baseball stadium. The problem is the way they go about making decisions and forming opinions. The facts don't matter. They just want to believe what they want to believe. That's what's dangerous.
"Blacks are inferior to whites."
"There's no evidence to suggest that's true."
"I don't care, I still think it's true."
I'm not claiming we can know everything or even 1% of everything. We don't and we never will. But if we don't aspire to make our decisions rationally, by studying the evidence available to us as best we can, we're in serious trouble.
When the AMA gives out shoddy diet advice based much less on hard evidence than it is on money and political expediency, people die.
When a President who doesn't know anything about the subject determines national policy regarding cloning, people might die.
I strongly recommend Carl Sagan's _Demon Haunted World_ for a great read on this very subject.
Oh Mom, WE'RE JUST PLAYIN'. (Next you're gonna tell us to get washed up fer dinner. Are we havin' spaghetti tonight? Can Bobby stay over? His Mom said it was ok. Huh, can he?)
(Actually, I DO have to get something to eat, now that I mention it...)
Lurk wrote: "The superstitious unwashed that you seem to fear had little to do with designing tanks, gas chambers, or nuclear weaponry. Nor were the decisions to use these toys prompted by casting rune stones or reading star charts."
To a certain extent, that's true. Technology and science HAVE been employed towards some pretty heinous ends. But were the Death Camps, for example, REALLY the result of rational thinking? You could argue the opposite, that the MOTIVATIONS behind them were based solely in superstition and fear. The belief that Jews were a bacillus and needed to be exterminated for the good of civilization sounds pretty irrational to me.
Hey you guys. Tone it down a smidge. You're getting all toasty about something you agree on, that life-changing decisions shouldn't be made based on the position of distant celestial bodies. Anyone that does so is setting themselves up for a fall. Science is a tool, and as such, is merciless in the hands of the merciless.
At least you guys don't have to put up with a President who thinks your religion isn't "real." (Translation: My beliefs are religion, yours are superstitious hogwash. Thank you for that lesson in logic, Dubya.)
L.
Astrology isn't based on sound reasoning, and that is the point, I'd think. Things that are anti-reason should be given a once over--especially, if we do actually live in a sceptical nation.
There is a lot of proof that Astrology is bunkum, but the herd swallows the divining coin anyway. See, we LIKE to believe in things in this country; even if those things are beyond rational thinking. And you don't have to be a Sceptic to understand this.
LURK: I DO agree the nonsensical, the mystical, and the absurd have a place in our lives. Hell, I wouldn't read sf/fantasy if I didn't. But I have to go with Chris on this: When nonrational beliefs start influencing decisions on public policy, it's time to be worried. Call me a fool, but I'd rather have Spock than Nostradamus running the show--at least there's some basis for dialogue with the former. If leaders believe that they're getting marching orders from the the Heavens, why should they listen to ANYONE here on Earth? (See the latest response of the Catholic Church to the molestation crisis.)
>Ignorance is not something to embrace and it isn't harmless<
Chris L, maybe I'm reading this the wrong way. But last I looked, the vast swaths of warfare and destruction that our past century endured, including the mass murder of countless millions of innocents, was conducted by well-educated individuals, many with advanced degrees in science and math.
The superstitious unwashed that you seem to fear had little to do with designing tanks, gas chambers, or nuclear weaponry. Nor were the decisions to use these toys prompted by casting rune stones or reading star charts.
It also took a fair degree of brains and expensive college educations to trash the environment with air, water, and land pollution, mow down the rainforests, drive numerous species into extinction, and poison everyone's immune systems for probably the next century. This was all done with a calculator, not a crystal ball.
To suggest that elections are going to be taken over by professed UFO abductees and creationists seems to me a pretty weak argument. Given these past actions by our friends in the Ivy League, and their counterparts in Europe, could it have been any worse?
Jim, I wasn't defending astrology as a subsitute for science. What I was defending was the right of nonsensical, the mystical, and the absurd to not be heralded as the downfall of humanity. Along with our formulas and theorems, we must also live with our demons and our shadows.
Now, one can climb into the ring waving their copy of "The Skeptical Inquirer," but should they expect any more leverage with the final judgement than the goon with the Bible or the dude with the guitar? Rationalism and its scientific tropes have done wondrous things, expecially for commerce, health care, and the national defense, but when it comes to explaining the human heart, and its ongoing wrassle between passion and despair, it's as worthless as week-old toast.
So yeah, I get a little honked when I'm told my brains are falling to the floor because I'm no more threatened by the nitwits who believe the Earth is flat than I am the great white fathers who promote the efficacy of controlled nuclear theaters. I personally am growing a little weary of running to the math book for every answer, and I don't think having Spock and the Professor from Gilligan's Island running the show is going to make things any better.
Viva Lunacy.
The problem, Xanadu, is not that Joe Schmo in Walla Walla believes in astrology. It's that Joe Schmo likes to vote for people who "think like him" which means that we wind up with a country where the people who make decisions that impact our lives are unqualified to do so. Science policy is determined by panels of Congresspersons ignorant of even the most basic scientific principles.
Ignorance is not something to embrace and it isn't harmless. We live in a unique time in the sense that we now have developed the capacity to destroy our own race or at least very large swaths of it with relative ease. This is not the time to hunked down on our haunches and tremble in fear at the thunderbolts angry gods cast down at us.
I'll briefly follow up my 'just plain sick SOBs' statement. I'm referring to the men and women that have a perfectly decent childhood, a strong morale upbringing, a good job, a loving husband/wife and kids...
...and yet skinning little children alive in their basements remains their favourite hobbies alongside golf and sailing.
LURK: The thing is, the stars in their courses DO effect us in some way, and scientists know why. It's called gravity, and it states that every bit of matter in the universe exerts its pull, however small, on living beings here on Earth. (And vice versa).
The problem is, that's not what astrology says. It claims that a specific alignment of celestial bodies in the sky can determine our personalities, our behaviors, and even whether we live or die. And that simply has no scientific validity. There's not one shred of proof that people born under a particular astrological sign differ in any way from the rest of the population. Now, we can call a belief in astrology harmless and fun, and I'd (mostly) agree. But should we deny the lack of evidence for it, and claim that it has an equal footing with astronomy, cosmology, or any of the other hard sciences?
FRANK:
"I have always wondered why America creates so many serial killers in the first place"
Well, overpopulation could have a lot to do with it, but that's as tired an argument as the 'evil media' excuse. You don't have to look any farther than China to see how sparse America is in comparison. I really do believe most serial killers have been treated like shit for the majority of their lives, suffering non-stop abuse, humiliation and belittlement a la Ben Stiller in MEET THE PARENTS until the urge to remove some people's faces becomes incredibly dominant.
And then, of course, some of them are just plain sick SOBs.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
If you can see astrology (or any divinatory system) as a tool, take from it what you need, be it entertainment or spiritual sustenance, it is not the end of civilization as we know it. If you start planning where to aim the bombs as a direct result of the alignment of Saturn in Sagittarius, then you're whacked. Such things are merely reflections of what we take into them. What is the quote? A monkey can look into a mirror but should not expect a saint to peer back at him?
L.
Just a quick thought – I agree with Lurk, we're not gonna die because our species is full of folk who live life intuitively, rather than rationally or logically. Has there ever really been an "Age of Reason"? Where a significant majority of the general populace has had more than a passing notion of science and the scientific method? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
BUT, I 'm not worried for the reason Chris L. states – we don't get to vote on reality. Whether _I_, or anyone else, believes in dark matter, or anti-gravity, or anti-matter, or astrology doesn't change what's actually going on out there. Reality IS.
What scares the hell outta me is when the tin-foil-helmet-people gain control of scientific funding and science education, when the idjits try to warp our perception of reality, or bend the principles of the scientific method to advance a predetermined agenda - THEN we're fucked. It's one thing for an individual to champion a far-out theory, it's another altogether for a society to deny the mainstream scientific thought on a subject, and to fail to teach it.
Lurk,
An open mind is good.
Keeping your mind so open that your brain falls out is bad.
Life is not just an opinion. You don't just get to vote on reality. You gather evidence and evaluate the facts.
Astrology had been around many centuries, has been studied for many centuries and has never, in any way, shape or form, been proven to have any validity as a predictive tool.
I know we are steeped in a culture that prides itself on intellectual relativism where everybody is right about everything. That's part of the problem, not the solution.
>The fact that 60% of Americns don't accept astrology is valid (meaning that 40% do) is hailed as good news. We're all dead.<
Open minds, now. Astrology has been around for a long time, very long, and the fact that it isn't qualified by experimental science doesn't make it less a part of the human scene. People believe in a lot of things not measurable by the microscope...I wouldn't say "we are all dead" because of it.
Not being lab-certified is often not a requirement with "hard science," either. Witness dark matter, yet another creation by the research world to fit their math, despite not one shred of evidence for its existence (anyone remember ether?) You'd have a better chance proving that the moon in Scorpio makes you horny.
Someday, and that day may never come, we may actually find out that the stars in their courses DO affect us in some way. There's plenty left out there for us to not have a clue about. I believe radio waves were a complete unknown for about 98% of recorded human history. For now, astrology is crude, it's escapist, and it's also silly fun.
I'll take the mystic dancing of the quirkies over the dull march of the uber-rational. They dress better, too.
Made any decisions about school?
H
Wanna raise your blood pressure? Take a check on the latest survey regarding the state of scientific literacy in America.
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-science0430.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
How bad is it? The fact that 60% of Americns don't accept astrology is valid (meaning that 40% do) is hailed as good news.
We're all dead.
Cindy..
I thought you were telling us a story at first. It sounds so unreal. Make sure your mom stays healthy. I'm sure she has connections..
Meanwhile, butttinsky here, says..
CHARLIE.. CEP.. You listening?
Cindy, tell your mother to make some time for cooldown. Forty-four years is a hell of a long time. Then.. go kick somebody's butt.
Ya dig?
Thanks for sharing.
Heather
I have always wondered why America creates so many serial killers in the first place: Maybe it is our sense of selfish superiority, or the way people are treated like property. More than likely the way we downplay the need for better mental health services, in this dictatorial "marketplace".
But I would never blame the media. Too many facts that get in the way of such a lame arguement. Like Frank Zappa said, since there have been so many love songs written, then why haven't people been programmed to love?
Changing Lanes: Great film, marvelous acting, great way of handling the concept of stress and how it eats at you; especially when things all seem to be going down the sewer. I give it plunger up.
----------------------
I also recieved that dreaded email. Does anyone know if that thing actually was directed from Africa?
-----------------------
Finally saw, Lord Of The Rings. What an amazing use of special effects, no wonder it won all those Oscars. Beginning to think that Peter Jackson might have let Opie screw him. Petey Jackson, you are one bad man. This had to be the hardest movie ever to make. The thought scares the hell out of me. Put er there Petey. Now that's dedication; and to think: He made THREE Rings movies in a row! Yikes. Now I can see why Neil Labute only does small films.
Bermanator,
Don't know if that ninja site is for real or not, but _it_is_hilarious. For those that haven't seen it (www.realultimatepower.net) Joe Bob Rich says check it out.
Also, Bermie-nator, what was the name of that book again you mentioned quite awhile ago regarding serial killers and their upbringing/motivation? I hope you know what I'm talking about 'cause I believe it was you that mentioned the book. If it wasn't you, then ignore me and I'll do some sleuthing.
(When I worked in a bookstore, I always hated the customer who came up to me and asked, "Do you have that book? The one that was on that show the other day? Not sure which show and I'm not sure what the book's about, but it was written by a doctor. I think. It had a blue cover. Or, maybe it was green because the television color hasn't been too good. Do you have it?")
Washu,
A) You are correct on Ackerman. Which, to put on my personal opinion hat, is just an example of a certain tin ear he has toward words & phrases.
B) I prefer to think of it as a dimunation rather than an abbreviation. Gives the impression that the genre is till pointy rockets whizing around space with Tom Corbett.
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn- I _love_ the "I got flamed by" t-shirt idea! My brother'd be so jealous... in a little online weblog (bloglet), he wrote: "I just learned that my sister got into a flamewar with Harlan Ellison. ::cries:: I've never been so happy in my life!" Where I don't know as it was a 'flamewar' (especially on HE's low-gear end), it certainly was funny. Never knew he was a HE fan 'til this!
--Undottified
--Zoe Rose
Get your Smoking E tshirt today.
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
You guys have way too much time on your hands.
I picked up the term "schwag" from local radio, and in that context it means promotional items generally of little or no value that is given away to the masses (e.g. bumperstickers, cheap tshirts, drink insulators, magnets, program directors, etc).
In *this* case, schwag is indeed promotional in nature, but you have to pay for it, which means it is of a much higher quality than your usual schwag. And the E is Smoking as a direct result of your kind and loving nature here on the Webderland board. Yes, we are still bandying about the idea of the "I got flamed by Harlan Ellison and all I got was this lousy tshirt" shirt. Of course, the url would only be given to those who have actually *survived* the loving tongue caress of our esteemed patron, and lived to tell the tale.
Now get back to work. ALLYA DAGOS! GET OFF ME LAWN!
L.
Jim: I knew you were kidding. Just wanted to let everyone know why I haven't been exhibiting my usual ebullience (or verbosity) in this venue. At least I get to dance up the sun tomorrow with my morris team (May Day, ya know), and two friends have asked if I want to sing the National Anthem with them before a minor league game at the end of the month. Cheers!
Y'know, the term 'sci-fi' was actually coined for the first time by a film producer...Forrest Ackerman, I think. Anybody is welcome to correct me on this.
Never knew so many people could despise an abbreviation...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Is THAT why the "E" is smoking?
So Lynn is now selling DRUGS to raise money for KICK? Oy vey...
DAVID: Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I hope you don't think *I* was trying to be dogmatic or anything--I was just kidding around. (Though I DO enjoy a good grammar rumble now and then...)
CINDY: I can't believe, in this litigious age, that people actually think they can GET AWAY with this shit. I hope a lawyer takes your mom's case, and they sue the Holy Hell out of these dirtbags.
Lorin & Xanadu,
I think Schwag is a different term than Swag. Appears to be a word for the lowest grade of weed, according to a bunch of stoner web pages.
Regards,
Joseph
CINDY: What agency does your mother work for?
She should go to the EEO office. She should go to the union. And I'm certain a good lawyer will step up.
Re: GAE's obit in the Cleveland Plain-Dealer -- since when does any part of "When Gravity Fails" take place on Bourbon Street?
Gosh, I really need to do some WORK this week...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure SCHWAG = SWAG = (from bartlebys.com)
"NOUN: 1a. An ornamental drapery or curtain draped in a curve between two points. b. An ornamental festoon of flowers or fruit. c. A carving or plaster molding of such an ornament. 2. Slang Stolen property; loot. 3. Australian The pack or bundle containing the personal belongings of a swagman. 4. Slang Herbal tea in a plastic sandwich bag sold as marijuana to an unsuspecting customer.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: swagged, swag·ging, swags
1. Chiefly British To lurch or sway. 2. Australian To travel about with a pack or swag.
ETYMOLOGY: Probably of Scandinavian origin."
Cindy: What happened to your mother just plain sucks. But after 44 years and the last few years of abuse, it may well be a relief. As long as they're not screwing up her pension, that is...
I knew several soldiers during my time in the Army -- good, solid, hardworking NCOs, maybe they didn't win medals for valor in combat but certainly had never embarrassed the uniform they wore -- who were driven out after 18 or 19 years to keep them from getting their 20 years in. It's not right, it's not fair, and if your mom has all that documentation then she needs to find a lawyer who will take the case. Once the lawyers for the VA get around to reviewing her documents during discovery, they'll make a settlement offer.
Ok, I'm going to risk sounding even stupider than is my normal want and custom...
I understand the meaning from the context - but I am curious - does anyone know the origin of the term "schwag"?
No particular need - just general curiosity.
Thanx in advance.
Jim:
It ain't age. It's exhaustion and low spirits. I too have been shifted into a much shittier position at my day job. My book is stuck in Editing Limbo (the publisher fired one editor and just hired another one). I can't get to this board or anywhere else on the Web as often as I used to -- as often as I'd like -- and I need a big change. I think I'll go get a Ph.D to stave off boredom; people keep mistaking me for a professor, anyway. But that'll take some groundwork. * sigh * And I don't claim to be an expert on rules of grammar, just a natural writer. No point in being dogmatic about it, anyhow....
That, and they used the mutant term "sci-fi" in the hed. Oh well, it's still decent obit. Though I'll admit that I'm intrigued to find out how you manage to drop out of Yale twice, as the obit says Mr. Effinger did.
Regards,
Joseph
Well, well--a prophet DOES have honor in his hometown. For the Plain Dealer obit on GAE, check out
http://www.cleveland.com/obituary/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1020159013235072.xml
Okay, so they misspelled Harlan's name.
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE!
GETcher WEBderLAND SCHWAG Here! *T*shirts! BALLcaps! COFfee mugs! TOTE bags! FIVE, count 'em, FIVE dollars of EVERY item purchased goes to KICK! GETcher SMOKING 'E NOW!
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
Limited Time Only! Stainless Steel Travel Mugs, Frosted Rootbeer Mugs, and collared Golf Shirts! Get 'em while they're hot!
Alex: Point taken. But we gotta keep the faith, don't we? (he says, plaintively, knowing Alex is more right than wrong...)
CINDY: My sympathies. We seem to be living in a world that is growing more faster and hyperactive with each passing minute, sacrificing dignity and decency in the process. Funny enough - your story reminded me of the silent film THE LAST LAUGH, where the master bellhop -after serving countless years at a prestigious hotel - is suddenly demoted to the degrading postion of restroom attendant. The total cluelessness (or apathy?) of his superiors to how this will affect him emotionally, physically and financially seems to be more in effect today than ever before.
Not that any of this helps, but hope it brightens your world a little.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Xanadu, er, MAYBE Cindy's mother will do well once she gets a lawyer--and maybe not. The Federal government, in its wisdom, sometimes grants itself exceptions from the laws the rest of us must follow. I hope Cindy's mom finds a good lawyer, but I know from long experience that the law is a screwy thing, and justice is often a surprising by-product of its workings, rather than its inevitable goal.
Not to be a cynic, mind you. It's just that I come from a family of lawyers. Father, brother, twin sister, all in law. (Sorry, none in Texas.)
Rick, let me add my belated congrats on the new job.
--Alex
Cindy,
Keep looking for a lawyer - there will be one who will take the case, and your mom will do well then.
Bureaucratic fucknuts...that's all I gotta say.
Sorry, Cindiana
Cindy,
Your mom:
Rant by all means! That utterly sucks and I'm very sorry to hear it. I wish there was more machinery (for the little I know in that area there is) to deal more readily with that kind of blatant, low, cut-throat sovereignty...whether dealing with a government office or the private sector.
Cindy,
Your mom:
Rant by all means! That utterly sucks and I'm very sorry to hear it. I wish there was more machinery (for the little I know in that area there is) to deal more readily with that kind of blatant, low, cut-throat sovereignty...whether dealing with a government office or the private sector.
Oh, and Cindy:
what fucking assholes. You and your mother have my sympathy.
LORIN:
"Wizard's First Rule" is Terry Goodkind. One of my favourite "epic fantasy" series, but it's HIGH on blood and gore and sex (the first novel contains a 100-something page torture scene)
My favourite authors in fantasy are, however:
URSULA K. LE GUIN -- Wizard of Earthsea being the most known, but most of her other books are beautiful too.
ROBIN HOBB (aka Megan Lindholm) -- The Farseer Trilogy (Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin and Assassin's Quest) and The Liveship Traders (Ship of Magic, Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny) are some of the most beautifully written books ever; they're finished trilogies instead of ever-continuing series like Sword of Truth or (ugh) Wheel of Time; and for a change, they concern themselves not with the fate of an entire world, but just a small town.
and, of course
GEORGE R. R. MARTIN -- A Song of Ice and Fire (currently out: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords). Best. Epic. Fantasy. Ever.
(all in my opinion of course)
MY MOM
Who worked for the Federal government for 44 years got fired today. They decided that they didn't want her to get any more money at retirement so they started dogging her about ten years ago. The last thing they came up with was that she made two KEY stroke errors in two weeks... it didn't matter that she corrected them before she sent the job off. She was the only one in the office whose work they have been scrutinizing. Also one of the men in her office stole her umbrella.. a 20 year old BEN HOGAN umbrella in pristine condition that she had gotten from Dillards during a promotional deal in the early eighties. The guy took it a year or so earlier, then when the heat started getting turned up at the office he brought it back and put it in a place where she would have to walk by it. She asked him where he had gotten the umbrella and he said his uh sister had given it to him. So she told her supervisor about the incident and the supervisor wrote my mom up for " accusing him of taking her umbrella". They said things to her like, " I'm going to fire you by next March." And " Old woman." and " Some of us aren't going to be here much longer." Constant harrassment for YEARS. Some of it stemed from a time when she filed a greivance because she was denied a promotion ( she remains a GS9 after all these years), she had been the only one who had filled out the application correctly. The day after they were due the supervisor personally rewrote all of the other applications for everyone in the unit and put them in the proper form. They were promoted, Mom was not.
There was more and worse. One man told her that he knew people who could take care of her and they'd put the body in the trunk and haul it to Mexico where nobody would ever find out.
So today around one they called her into the sub-director's office, the director refused to see her. There were four or five of them there and she was alone when they told her that they were removing her from her position. They demanded her badge and the sticker from her car.
Never mind that she had been awarded and commended and people from Washington requested to deal with her on matters that required speed and efficiency. Never mind that she was working at the Veterans Administration and her second and last husband who died in 1969 was a veteran.
44 years. That is what kills me. They kick her out on the street like a bum who refuses to work.
She has about fifteen pounds of documentation for the treatment she's recieved over the last ten years.. alot of it is SMOKING, but she can't even find an attorney to take the case in Austin.
Go Figure.
Sorry for the rant y'all ,
Cindy
Re: Help us get millions of $$$ out of Nigeria fraud.
The version I've seen dresses it up with a story about how they need somebody honest and reliable to let them do the transfer, because the last guy they tried to work with vanished with a huge chunk of their money. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more. It's nice to imagine that the only people who'd fall for something like this are clowns who actually think they'll be able to skip the country with millions ripped off from the Nigerians. You know--the ones who deserve to fall for it.
TR
Sorry, forgot to mention that Lori is divorced.
Lynn,
"Chuck~ Saw Caesar sippin' a piña colada last night at Trader Vic's, did you? Was his hair p e r f e c t?"
Yep. What there was of it. The older he gets, the balder he gets.
By the way, where do I find the T-shirts, etc. you spoke of with some proceeds going to KICK? I went to Digital Carrion, but I didn't see anything there. I did see your photo. LOVE the tinted glasses.
Darwin's drunk again, eh? Must be hanging out with Caesar.
Now, for all, a little venting. Gotta get this out. I was having a telephone chat with a freind of mine, Linda. We've known each other since college. A longer time than I can believe. How did so much time pass? Linda was upset. She's jewish, quite orthodox, but not a tight-ass about it. Her niece, Lori, a rather mixed-up young lady, married a guy outside the faith. Not that I think that's all that shocking, I'm a goy myself. but Lori has been having a problem with her oldest daughter, Boston. The little girl can't sleep, keeps waking her mother at all hours.
Well now we know why. Her rotten, waste of protoplasm father has been telling Boston that jews are people of the devil, and that Lori is a whore, and that her loving aunt and grandmother will harm her. He says he gets this from his church.
You hear about this shit going on, about how someone takes their particular "bully pulpit", in this case an altar, and turns it into a way to broadcast ugliness to everyone there. And there seems to be no end of people who swallow this as "gospel" truth. That's why I enjoyed the humor tonight, more than usual. I needed a laugh.
Okay, vent closed. Thanks all, for coming to this oasis, and thanks to Rick for creating it, and Harlan for inspiring it. Keeps the slope-headed, knuckle-dragging monkeyboys at bay.
Chuck
Rich,
The website you mentioned is down at the moment, I'll keep trying!
CHUCK!!! My screenplay is probably in your email box as we speak. I THANK you for reading it.
Cindy
Kerry,
There is not always a Grandmaster award presented (technically, it is not a Nebula, but is presented as part of the awards ceremony). You correct that the nomination is by the President of the SFWA, after which it needs to be approved by a majority of SFWA officers. Here's the year-by-eyar list of recipients:
Robert A. Heinlein (1974)
Jack Williamson (1975)
Clifford D. Simak (1976)
L. Sprague de Camp (1978)
Fritz Leiber (1981)
Andre Norton (1983)
Arthur C. Clarke (1985)
Isaac Asimov (1986)
Alfred Bester (1987)
Ray Bradbury (1988)
Lester Del Rey (1990)
Frederik Pohl (1992)
Damon Knight (1994)
A.E. Van Vogt (1995)
Jack Vance (1996)
Poul Anderson (1997)
Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) (1998)
Brian W. Aldiss (1999)
Philip José Farmer (2000)
Considering this past few months, I think they need to pick up the pace. It's a shame that more great writers haven't been recognized in this manner. Anyway the rules that cover Grandmaster & President awards are 20 and 21, found here:
http://www.sfwa.org/awards/rules.htm
Regards,
Joseph
With all these recommendations for Ginger Snaps, I’ve now ordered it. It sounds like an intelligent, well acted movie.
Thanks for the mini-reviews and recommendations from all here. Webderland is a mine of information, and it’s everyone that makes it that way.
Cheers,
Kerry
Hi all,
Could someone answer a question for me? In a post was the mention of a Nebula Award that was not being given this year. I notice, now that the awards are out, that the Grand Master Award and the Bradbury Award were not given, but a Presidents Award was.
As the Grand Master Award is nominated by the President of the SWFA (I think), what is the idea of not having the Grand Master Award this year, and of having a Presidents award?
I’ve had a look around, but can’t find anything about this, and it intrigued me.
Cheers,
Kerry
Some food for thought courtesy Darkhorizons.com
"Dragnet (TV): Emmy-winning "Law & Order" producer Dick Wolf and Studios USA are developing a prime time new updated take on the classic 50's & 60's cop drama with Wolf expected to write the pilot and serve as exec producer. It's expected Wolf's show "will be more of a revisualization of "Dragnet" as a modern-day Los Angeles cop drama rather than a simple remake of the old series". The original became famous for its very straight-ahead procedural style to cop dramas with Jack Webb starring as Sgt. Joe Friday. The show is not expected to begin airing till late 2003 at the earliest even though a network deal should be announced relatively shortly. Thanks to 'Miqque'"
Cindy... Hmmm...it was more an IMPRESSION. I can't cite a specific something..hmm..I think women, in general, fall into personae traps. Hmm.. HMM... I shall pray on the matter.
You speak like an expert, in your screenplay. I think...because..and bear with me I'm trying to figure this out as I write..you were very familiar with the landscape (language, people, situations) of which you wrote, in your screenplay; I heard no..hmm..hesitation.
Sometimes, I hear.. hesitation in the way you speak on the forum. I'm sure that's not all of it..but..
And as I know you ARE an expert--being a parent; being a spouse; being the wife of a trooper (on a number of levels--he sounds pretty cool, your babelet), the sound in your screenplay bespoke your..depth.
Does that make sense, Cindy?
The movie, "Ginger Snaps"... Nobody talked about "Ginger Snaps" when it came out, here in Canada. I can't recall WHY I went to see it--I worried, as I think it's a Canadian film, isn't it?--it might be..ech.. or another one of these stupid teen type horror movies with blood and breasts--you know the type.
But I was AMAZED by it. It really creeped me out. And I BATHED in the wonderful sensation of watching TWO, count em, TWO good female performances. I just couldn't figure out why I didn't hear more about it. Too many movies floating around in the universe, I guess.
The movie, "Quo Vadis... Oh, and I watched Christians die the other night. I mean, for REAL. It felt real and it really upset me. What asses the Romans were..in "Quo Vadis." Some BRILLANT performances though. The movie is in subtitles. I sat and watched it as a Catholic church charity screening--not planned, just that I wanted to see this movie--at the Towne Cinema. I think MOST of the people there WEREN'T reading the subtitles; I'm not sure what language it is.
Something went through me ...like a soul..when it came to the Christians and the lions..and other atrocities. This concept of watching people die..as an event, as a sport..that fucks with my head.
I was in the library the other day. I started a Tabitha King book--sorry, I forget the name. The character was out picking berries. She came upon three guy who had caught a cat in a metal trap. It was half dead anyway. One fucker splatted down on the cat's head with his boot, killing it. It shocked me..as it shocked the character, who immediately threw up. People do fucking strange things.
I read today of a six or seven year old boy, found in the mud, killed by his older brother and sister. They were, like, 10, 12, something like that. Where do these people come from? *Sigh*
Harlan... I thought of this when first I heard you mention Effinger. The thing is..these passings seem, in my recollection, to always come in threes.. or more.
Here's a view: Two guys left for the great beyond. They needed an arbitrator for the yak fests they'd finally be having--they's never met before--and called for this Effinger dude to complete the trio. Just an idea.
Regrets, in any case, in you need em, k?
Oh yeah, I bought a lottey ticket after the movie. If it wins, it goes to KICK. (I picked up this tidbit at the gas station job. Wouldn't have known otherwise. There's a 2.2 Million jackpot waiting. Stranger things have happened. (Okay, we have to deal with exchange rates and probably fucking income tax..but hey. Whaddayat gonna do?) I've never played lotteries. I find the concept weird. I save my luck for real life. But I also find footing a the bill of a large lawyer fee weird, too.
Jay, Cindy: a tiny child story. I thought it so amusing, so enLIGHTENING to see a completely different view, when a tiny child on the bus the other day, pointed to a baby and say, "John?" (or some name like that.) His mother, in a fairly serious tone, said, "No, that's not John." And the little kid, as serious as day, said, "Why not?"
Rick: Glad to hear you found a job. I'm sure your dog is highly relieved. *grin*
Thanks, Lynn! How could I forget FOUNDATION? And Eddings' books? Sheesh. Will pass on those recommendations.
And to read a first novel (and perhaps learn from someone else's mistakes) Terry Cook's WIZARD'S FIRST RULE.
L.
Well, how about Asimov's FOUNDATION? McCaffrey's PERN? One of my personal favorites, Susan R. Matthews EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES and PRISONER OF CONSCIENCE, though not for the faint of heart. There's always Zelazny's AMBER, Eddings' BELGARIAD & MALLOREAN, Simmons' HYPERION, or Barker's IMAJICA.
Just to name a few,
L.
Yup, got that same email letter today. I seem to get it, or one like it, about once a month now. I really hope that NO ONE *EVER* falls for something so obvious. Not to mention ridiculous.
But, to a question: I've got a friend who is about to embark on a new novel--SF--that's rather expansive in scope. I suggested that in preparation he might read other "epic" novels, especially epic SF/Fantasy/Speculative novels. First ones that came to mind were Lord of the Rings, Dune, The Stand...but after that I was stumped.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
Lorin
Chuck~ Saw Caesar sippin' a piña colada last night at Trader Vic's, did you? Was his hair p e r f e c t?
L.
E-mail fraud:
I got one weeks ago from a supposed family member of Mobutu Sese Soko. His widow. I think I got that one at work. Damn, the recession must be hitting hard. I keep getting more spam than an army field kitchen.
Rick,
Glad to hear (read) about your new job. Best of luck to someone who demonstrates that the web does not have to be full of aimless crap.
Alex Jay,
(But I've always had a story in mind about it--Caesar had seizures ["Moses supposes"?], you see, and if I can ever do some in-depth research on pre-Christian Rome, I'll write about the plot to rid the Empire of its lycanthropic rulers ...)
Ah, yes. I do remember the case. Caesar had siezures by the sea shore. As I recall, he was the only bald wolfman in Rome. Everybody knew who had mutilated that little old lady last night, despite Caesar's denials.
"Oh, great! There goes Caesar, carrying off another sheep. That's eight head so far! Just wait'll Brutus hears about this!"
Chuck
Shane, I recieved the same e-mail today. I have had a few different versions of this fraud sent to me.
Cheers,
Kerry
I've seen this dealt with in a clever manner. What the bank and FBI do when they receive a tip like this is offer a "dummy number" that the FBI forwards to these schmoes. Then they watch for transactions on that account, track to the source and freeze the account making the withdrawl.
I understand that the con is often pulled off six months later, after recieving the account number and after they forward a "Thank you, but we've resolved the issue" email which either disappoints the potential lottery winner or tries to convince the Feds they got cold feet. Then, after the memory fades, they wait until payday and WHOOOSH, transfer the lot offshore, or - more commonly - they suck off the account like a parasite, assuming they are too dumb to watch their account closely.
Sadly, most really are offshore, so it's hard to prosecute or recover money lost to them.
Well, it has now been attempted on me: fraud. Today I received an e-mail from a "Mrs. Catherine K. Saro Wiwa Ogoni Tribe Nigeria" offering to share 10 percent of her dead husbands $45,000,000.00 dollars in oil holdings if I would allow her to use my bank account to transfer the money out of Nigeria. Can you believe that people fall for this crap? Of course, I immediately filed a complaint with the F.B.I.
Thanks for all the information, folks. I realize the information I provided was a bit sketchy so I thought I'd fill out the rest.
My son had bad ear infections when he was very young which caused some hearing problems for several months. After getting the infections cleared up and his hearing tested again we began speech therapy. While in the speech therapy class his therapist noticed that he did not seem to engage in "imaginative play" which is one of the hallmarks of Asperger's syndrome. We will be having a developmental asessment done in a few months to confirm/disprove this diagnosis.
The reason for waiting so long for the diagnosis is because my son will be having surgery to fuse some vertebrae in his back that did not form properly when he was born. He'll be in a cast from shoulders to pelvis for six months afterwards.
Please don't read the above as a "oh woe is me" plea for sympathy. My son is a happy soon-to-be three year old who is currently fascinated by banging on piano keys and being read to by his mother and father.
Wow. I think that's the most I've told anyone about my family... well, ever. What can I say? You're all such a friendly and helpful bunch I just wanted to fill you in on the details.
Thanks,
Dennis
Washu,
"Ever seen the trailer for PSYCHO, or THE BIRDS for that matter?"
Those were REALLY funny; esp. the 'Psycho' trailer which took me off guard considering the tragedy that befalls the characters in the film.
**You are way off fella. The camera movements are meant to convey a sense of cat and mouse subversion. It added to the suspense. **
Since there was exactly zero suspense in the movie, would that mean there was negative suspense without the use of the endlessly roving camera?
That's a pretty impressive achievement!
Bermanator: I know. I still think Fred tipped you off, though.
Bill
Thanks for confirming that "different from" is correct and "different than" indicates not only a tin ear, but grammatical ignorance. I heard Terry Gross say it today on NPR.
Bill: I'm sure your hair is *fabulous*. I honestly didn't even think of you when I used that name, as those are the two names I use in class when making up sample vocab sentences.
Bermanator
Even a movie critic has the right to have guilty pleasures. Ebert is usually pretty open minded--which is the reason he is one of the better critics--and doesn't look down on movies that merely, "entertain".
The reason I probobly like him so much is because he loves Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom. Sorry, Lynn, had to say it.
-----------------
Chris L, saw Panic Room for a second time: You are way off fella. The camera movements are meant to convey a sense of cat and mouse subversion. It added to the suspense.
Bermanator: Leave my hair out of this! Damn Fred straight to aych-ee-double-hockey-sticks!!
Bill
BERMANATOR: A cursory look at the usual suspects (Strunk and White, O'Connor, Follett) confirms it: "Different from" is correct, "different than" is not.
DAVID LOFTUS: Geez, you aren't even going to put up the TEENSIEST fight over the correct use of "none"? You're showing your age, Loftus...
Funny thing about Hitchcock. He seemed to be one of the few directors who were true showmen in every sense of the word. Ever seen the trailer for PSYCHO, or THE BIRDS for that matter? That man had style.
Of course "different than" sounds wrong just like that. The confusion tends to come in when the two words get separated by a bunch of others, e.g., "Larry had a different way of doing it than John." I hear and read this kind of rendering all the time.
I don't know the rules, and I tend not to remember them, according to the parts of speech, etc. I just try to look at what's reasonable. "Than" typically applies when direct comparisons are made: larger than, faster than, dumber than, earlier than. "Different" doesn't offer any direct comparison; all it says is that a distinction exists or may be argued.
Bottom line: I try to avoid sentence constructions that encourage or allow the use of "different than."
Re: Grammar. Different from=correct, different than=incorrect.
I just recently had a writer of some prominence (not HE) make that very correction on a story of mine. It seems the "my mother is an English teacher" excuse only covers used commas and infinitive joinery.
L.
P.A.B.: As I understand it, "different from" is the correct form, though "different than" MAY be used when it comes before a clause.
So, for example, you couldn't say, "The cat who ran up the stairs is different THAN the other cat" because the part after "different THAN" is not a clause (no verb).
But you CAN say, "The cat who ran up the stairs is different than the cat who ran downstairs (because you've got a subject and verb at the end there)". Of course, it still sounds lousy to my ear, too, and since either is acceptable in that case, I'd probably just stick with "different from."
Two cents, for what they're worth!
-- Lorin O.
CLARIFYING THE GRAMMAR QUESTION:
Example: Fred's hairstyle is *different from* Bill's because he has a blonde streak.
OR
Fred's hairstyle is *different than* Bill's because he has a blonde streak.
Or are both correct?
Bermanator
GRAMMAR QUESTION FOR ALL YOU NITPICKERS:
Which is more acceptable, "different from" or "different than"? I have to admit, "different than" just sounds wrong to me, and I want to know if it is in fact a correct formulation.
Rich: That Ninja Website was sweet, or should I say, awesome? I read the intro of it to my study hall and showed them the picture "Mark is almost all the way through puberty, which is bragable." We collectively laughed our asses off. Is that site for real?
Bermanator
Rob: That's fair. I can see how a quote like Kael's "Hitchcock (the master of a piddling domain, a 'petit maitre' if ever there was one)"* affects your reading of Kael.
Cheers, Jon
* "Three." Pauline Kael. _Reeling._ Toronto: Little, Brown, 1976. 175-182. 179.
Alex,
Perhaps your efforts were not in vain. The Chicago Tribune carried a nice approximately 8-paragraph obituary from the AP for Mr. Effinger.
Regards,
Joseph
Jon,
Just for final clarity on the "Hitchcock collaboration" thread: I'm not taking away credit for those writers' abilities (particularly Stefano, whose own personality came through in the dialogue). The point is Hitch worked the strings to keep his themes in place; those writers whose approach weren't to his liking went out the door (he didn't like Chandler's dialogue for 'Strangers on a Train', for instance). By writing framework material and sketching (he'd had an art background; also in engineering...the reason sprinkled references to math come up in his films often...and the reason he was very good working the floor plan for camera tricks, sfx and technical problems) he had a fixed method in the process of assembling and constructing the material that went back to his beginnings in the silents. There were CERTAINLY writers like Lehman and Stefano who understood better than others what he was after in the structuring; unlike Hunter who'd literalized many elements in the original script for 'The Birds' which Hitchcock removed in preference to metaphor and ambiguity (frankly, to my liking). And LEHMAN, who'd been a hot success with 'North By Northwest' also did 'Family Plot', a relative failure. It's simply inaccurate to infer the film's success depended on who he teamed up with: the films that failed did so because of HIM; those that succeeded did so because of HIM. It was the same situation for Kubrick and Wilder.
Hey, listen: film is a collaborative medium no matter WHO you are. It's just the depth of influence directors have on the themes, style and voice of those movies that varies. Without Hitch's personal eccentricities flooding out of his films the way they do - even in the tv episodes he directed - his collaborators WOULD probably be more important to discuss. He is among the few directors ever who personify their movies.
Lorin: Yup, sorry, I'll be in Italy and Ireland during the next academic year, so I'm out. Good luck though!
J
Group W - I admit I've got NO idea who y'are! But Betty's Pies sounds like a superb trip. My parents are coming up for graduation, so maybe we'll take the trip there. My father has mentioned the Twin Cities book store several times, and so it's a definite destination during my next trip there. Thanks for the suggestsions!
--Dottingly
--Zoë Rose
Grumble, grumble, grumble, kvetch.
Yesterday, I notified the Associated Press in New Orleans about George Alec Effinger's death. They were receptive--at least partially because my long-time associate Janet McConnaughey is part of the New Orleans AP bureau. She knew and liked Effinger. She arranged for me to send info on GAE, including awards info, and Harlan's number (with Harlan and Susan's permission), in case they wanted a quote.
The Plain Dealer, Cleveland's only major newspaper, was an entirely different adventure. First, they'd never heard of him. Good enough, I sent the information (minus Harlan's number). They called again. Did George have family in the Cleveland area? I didn't know. Could they wait for the AP obit? Sure. And now today they called again, same questions, looking for other notices, etc. I suggested contacting a publisher and Barbara Hambly. The earnest young woman doing the obits means well, I'm sure. But I'm beginning to despair of GAE getting a proper obit in his hometown paper.
Faz baz. Just needed to blow off steam. I don't know if a prophet is without honor only in his own country, but it seems that a writer surely is.
--Alex
Zoe dot dot, you must not leave Duluth until you have been to Betty's Pies.
It's a requirement of spending time on the north shore. Well worth a 30 minute
drive. http://www.bettyspies.com/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Betty%27s+Pies&spell=1 (google search)
I always take an extra cooler for a 5 layer chocolate pie when heading up to
Temperance River or Cascade River state park.
If you or Lorin O end up in the twin cities, be sure to stop by Uncle Hugo's.
http://www.visi.com/~sfreader/unclehugo.html Open since 1974, I'm told it's
the longest surviving bookstore of it's genre(SF/fantasy), as well as one of the
largest in the states.
Several on this page may have met the late Scott Imes, a long time employee there.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/895052.html
Gunther:
--it's that videogames and movies are blamed for violence in society--
One politician fueling his campaign with a current tragedy is not a social mandate.
--there're several studies showing the opposite--
What, that videogames and movies make one peaceful and loving?
--any normal human being can distinguish reality from fiction, especially when they're 19 and thus have at least 11 years of education behind them--
A large assumption. Depends on the education, of course, as well as a host of other things (that I suppose "normal" people have); quality family life, balanced mental health, etc.
Yet ANOTHER piece on MULHOLLAND DRIVE: http://www.locusmag.com/2001/Reviews/Lalumiere11_MDrive.html. Though it subscribes to the standard "2/3 dream, 1/3 reality" theory, it raises a few points I hadn't seen before, especially about the true identities of the elderly couple and the "Silencio" woman. Maybe I WASN'T so off the mark with my "God and the Devil" crack, after all.
(I bought the DVD over the weekend, and I'm going frame-by-frame through the lesbian sex scenes--purely to discern any satirical intent on Lynch's part, of course.)
Lurk:
It doesn't matter if he had, it's that videogames and movies are blamed for violence in society when a) there're several studies showing the opposite and b) any normal human being can distinguish reality from fiction, especially when they're 19 and thus have at least 11 years of education behind them.
It's too easy to be obit guy of late. Joining George "Piglet" Effinger among the missing this weekend is John "Richard Cowper" Murry, another excellent writer. His novels were probably not the place to start, but the shorter fiction was often extremely impressive.
Oops redux: PETER - drop me a line, re: the seminars, too.
Cindy (and anyone else for that matter),
Please please please check out this site: http://www.realultimatepower.net
I don't know if it's for real or not, but it is (as the Sports Guy would say) FEEEEEEE-nomonal. Check out the PUMPUP and PUMPUP2 links (no nononono no, it's not porno). The comments at the end are priceless; specifically, The Kings Gold/Babes.
Jay's AQ = 13, baby... what do I win? K Mart Underwear?
RICH/CHRIS
Filmmaking as a Democracy. I don't think so.
Re: "I wrote the thing and I would pick the title whether anyone else liked it or not." <--- Channeling Ellison there, eh? Since you were Director AND Producer, you're pretty much THE MAN on that shoot. "You wanna take this to the UNION?" I've heard said. Apparently it shuts people up. Of course, if the instructor is nurturing a collaborative effort, then all bets are off and you'll end up with another mixed-up piece of filth.
I love college productions. Everyone's a fucking Coppola or Kevin Smith or Tarantino.
When my buddies and I shot "Ringo" it was pretty clear that since I was the guy footing the $$$, I ruled the universe. Of course, this works both ways. None of that $$$ was lining THEIR pockets so they could easily spend the day doing something that didn't involve sitting in the woods in mid-summer or creating zombie make-up.
When you need advice, they're there to give you their best and it's often best to allow them to give their advice. At least in school/amateur productions, you can't push too hard or your "talent" takes a hike. On a crappy shoot like "Ringo" we needed all the help we could get.
I miss those days. :)
Jay
Oops, BILL - I see your address! I'll write you!
-- Lorin
PETER: Nothing personal, I promise! :-) Just something so symmetrical about the Zoe/Justin pairing.
BILL, JUSTIN, ZOE, and any other writers in Minneapolis, Boston, Atlanta, Phoenix, and probably Orange County area of CA: drop me a line at lorin@free-expressions.com, and I'll give you the skinny on the writing seminars. (Also, check out www.free-expressions.com for info. on the seminars! Might help to know what you're getting into.)
Basically, I'm looking for folks who are willing to do some venue scouting (helping select hotels) and local promotions in exchange for a free seminar and probably a little cash. Also, probably, some help at the seminar itself.
Ideally, the writer in question would live in/be QUITE familiar with the city in question. I don't have any objection to someone schlepping an hour or two to get there (and that may be great for someone who is ONLY helping out at the seminar), but it might end up being a lot of time and effort for the reward.
I SHOULD have mentioned that this is for end of '02/most of '03, so I don't know if that puts you out of the running, Justin (will you still be in Italy?). If not, let's chat.
BILL - if you send me a note (or just your email address), I'll drop a line w/ some details.
And the same for everyone.
Re: the AQ score - I think it really just measured levels of extroversion and introversion. Apparently, I'm the social butterfly of the south! Who knew?
Best to all -
Lorin
RICH!
HAHAHAHAHA!
The pee pee comment was priceless!
I thought your response was PERFECT. You held your ground like a forty year old man! Careful, sticking up for yourself can be habit forming.
Cindy
rich,
I think you have the right idea. My own experience working on short films at film school showed that any collaborations were disastrous. Of course, almost all student films are disastrous.
At the end of the first year, we shot a five minute film in groups of four students. We had to decide for ourselves how to divvy up the responsibility. Being such nice guys, we decided that we would have two co-directors (I was one of them) and we'd pick different scenes to direct.
The film was an embarassing, non-sensical mish-mash with only one strength, good cinematography (on the student film scale of things.) Of course, there was only one cinematographer on the shoot.
Well, my amazing flame car is now fixed. Sort of a shame, really, as its gas line leak and fused fuel flow chip made it ideal for destroying any Doomsday Machines in this area.
Rob: So we disagree -- I really like your non-budgingness re: Hitchcock, as it reminds me of my own rants about Jack Kirby in other venues. I'd just like to point out one logical bit of three-card monte you pulled. Joseph Stefano may be a 'nobody' compared to Steinbeck and Faulkner, but that doesn't reflect on his ability to write. And Steinbeck and Faulkner had sometimes spotty records in Hollywood, apart from their great achievements as novelists. Beyond that, I think it's a shame that Hitchcock never won an Oscar (or five or six), and of course Hitchcock's films bear the imprint of his interests. They certainly do, and I'd count *Psycho*, *Shadow of a Doubt*, *The 39 Steps* and probably half-a-dozen others on any list I'd compile of '100 Best.' Timon of Athens is a dud, and Hamlet's dramatic structure is a nightmare -- neither of those change my assessment of Shakespeare as pretty much 'it'. Hitchcock's grand successes far outnumber his failures, and even the failures are interesting in a way that I think points to Hitchcock as being a great artist -- because they *are* interesting at points.
Cheers,
Jon
For those that have the Independent Film Channel, tonight's show of "Dinner for Five" will include the following guests: "...Jon Favreau as host to special guests Ron Livingston (of Swingers and Office Space fame), Sarah Silverman (of SNL and MR. Show fame), Kevin Pollack (of The Usual Suspects) and Rod Steiger (if you don't know... ::sigh:: On the Waterfront, Dr. Zhivago, Mars Attacks, etc). They're eating at Saddle Peak (Los Angeles)."
The above quote was taken from Ain't It Cool News.
I am a fan of Rod Steiger and don't know how you go from "On the Waterfront" and "Dr. Zhivago" to "Mars Attacks". I don't know how one leaves out "The Pawnbroker" or maybe even "In the Heat of the Night" or any other countless GOOD movies Steiger was in and put in "Mars Attacks". But, that's just me.
Also, just some thoughts on collaborations and whatnot. I am taking a film class and we just shot my script over the weekend. Nothing great and the only reason my script was chosen was because mine was the only one submitted in a reasonable amount of time. Given that it was my script, the instructor said I was producer and probably should direct. (Hitchcock's got nothing to worry about, but I think I'm a cut above Ed Wood.)
I've got a working title and kicked around a couple of things and mentioned it to the class. After getting blank stares and perplexed looks at the title I suggested, someone in the class said, "Since this is a collaborative effot, we should all decide on the title."
I immediately said no. After the uproar died down I explained that I wrote the thing and I would pick the title whether anyone else liked it or not. Also, since I was "producing and directing", I wouldn't mind input but the final say was mine.
You'da thought I yanked out my pee-pee and waved it all over the place based on the reaction I received.
Based on this experience, I think I'll be doing my own stuff with folks who don't feel a need to impart their "creativity" on something that's already been created.
Oops. That should've read:
"Please, contact me about the Boston seminar."
BG
Lorin: Contact me with some info on the Boston seminar.
Rick: Congrats!
Bill
Gunther, if he had a stack of bibles in his room and his walls were plastered with posters of Jesus Christ, they would have reported that too.
Political candidates are weather vanes....they have no opinions, they just follow the wind.
I wouldn't worry about it.
These killings in Germany piss me off no end.
Not just because the killer was a complete nutcase (apparently it turned out that he'd planned the shooting for quite a while and even called friends warning them not to go to school that day).
No, the media reports bug the hell out of me. What was the FIRST REMARKABLE THING they reported about the killing?
That he had violent movies and computer games in his room.
Oh noooo, it didn't matter that he had a fucking ARSENAL of weapons and belonged to a sport shooter's club and trained like a madman -- IT WAS THE MOVIES AND THE GAMES!!! AS ALWAYS!!!
Next they'll find a Marilyn Manson CD behind his bed, and then we'll know who's REALLY responsible!
Now the chancellor candidate is calling for a law to ban violent games and movies (aside the fact that every single game involving the killing of humans gets banned in Germany and isn't available to buy for people under 18, nor may it be advertised or positively reviewed once it's banned) while CNN continues to show SUICIDE BOMBER LIVE WITH DETACHING HEAD ACTION.
I hate this fucking hypocrisy.
Good morning, all-
The countdown is really going now - only officially 19 days until I graduate/get commissioned...
Re: AQ test - I got a 12, so does that mean there's very little chance I'm any form of autistic? Also, Dennis- try to make sure everything about your child gets looked at. I'm no expert (or parent, even) but I do know that I was being considered for LD (learning disabled) classes as a child until it was discovered I couldn't hear anything. Got tubes in the ears and *wham!*, I was suddenly the smart kid in class.
Re: Me and match-ups here. Goodness. Is it sad that I have more potential hookups here than in real life? *laughs* Even completely fabricated cyberspace ones? Aah, well... (and yes, I'm just kidding. Kinda.)
R: Whose Line... a show I thoroughly enjoy, though I don't know much about the individual people. I'd have to say Colin's my favorite, though. He's always the one to make me snort whatever liquid it is I'm drinking through my nose.
Loren O. - I'm in Duluth, a mere 2 hours from Minneapolis. If you come here, do let me know and I'll try to help out in whatever way I can!
Dangit. My "time to go" buzzer just went off.
Off to school, off to school.
Dotty
Zoë Rose
Lorin, I don't know whether to be relieved or insulted...
I'll be neither. Heh!
I'm in No. Cal, about seven hours North of L.A. If I could find a cheap place to crash I could easily drive down and help out. (I become unemployed in a couple weeks anyway.)
---Peter
Ok, so wondering what this AQ test was about, I found and took it.
My AQ is 21.
I'm very sceptical about these type of tests, because you know what there testing for, and that may influence your answers.
Cheers,
Kerry
Lorin: Thanks for helping to clear that up. I'm about 80 minutes south of Phoenix, although the way I drive tends to cut that figure in half. I could probably give you a hand, depending on what exactly you need. Also, it depends on when. As of right now I'm pretty free from late May until I leave for Italy around the 13th of August. Most of May is busy with finals, a sea kayaking trip to North Carolina, and a trip to Vegas with my pops, but I'll have SOME free time in mid-May. Let me know, I'd love to help in any way I can.
J
Dunno, Lorin; mine was a 32.
Should I be worried?
ONE LAST THING: What does it mean that my AQ score is a *9*?
1. Please, not Zoe dot-dot and Peter! I'm still hoping for the Zoe/Justin match-up. (As a thirty-six year old who has now been with the same person for exactly HALF of her life, I must live vicariously through other people's romances. Even completely fabricated cyber-romances. I'm not picky.)
2. Gerbils named "Sex" and "Violence"? I can live with that.
3. Rick, CONGRATULATIONS on your new job! And, though it's been said many times in the last couple of days (I was AFK from Friday on...), I greatly appreciate the work you do here. I've put together a couple of websites myself--nothing as expansive as this one--and I know it's a ton of work. I also do enough interacting with the public (mostly writers, which can be a pretty high-maintenance group) to have had my share of run-ins like the one you related (I'm so glad the guy apologized, though it'd have been better if he could have exercised a little impulse-control in the first place)). It can be quite a buzzkill. It's like handing someone a lavish twelve-course meal and having him bitch because his napkin is wrinkled (not even, I suppose, since the whole thing was his oversight in the first place).
ANYWAY, again, just know your efforts here mean a lot to me, and I'm only a semi-regular (at best).
4. Justin, re: show/don't tell. This has probably been covered already (have only scrolled back about 100 posts, and you guys had a BUSY weekend). This will be covered ad nauseum for the rest of your writing life (believe me). Basically, the difference between showing and telling is the difference between saying, "He was angry" and saying, "He barged into the room, picked up a chair, and hurled it at the window." One is simply information you're feeding the reader (telling). The other is a demonstration, in OBSERVABLE terms (imagery) of the emotion you're trying to express. The more you can put into concrete, sensory language, the more you create a SPACE for your reader to enter. The more you do that, the more involved they become in your story.
Hope that helps.
5. Any writers in Boston, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Phoenix, or Orange County area of CA (haven't settled on a location) who'd be interested in helping out with a series of writing seminars (in exchange for a free seminar and possibly a *little* cash)? I've got Lynn pegged for CA, but could probably use another hand there. Could use a COUPLE of hands in all locales, I'm sure.
6. Sorry if this is cryptic. The first of my seminars was this weekend, and I think I burned out my verbal skills chatting for about sixty hours straight (man, we writers are a VERBOSE bunch!). It was, however, PHENOMENAL, one of those occasions that unfolds even more smoothly than your fondest imaginings. Won't bore everyone w/ details. I'll just say that apart from the fact that my instructors did an excellent job (as expected), it was the HOTEL that actually blew me away with how smartly they handled things and how solicitous they were. So, miracles do happen!
Thanks for reading! Blabbingly yours,
Lorin O.
CHUCK: Well, I'm epileptic, my eyebrows grow together, and when I was a child I growled at people when I was angry.
Wasn't hard to link stuff up, really.
(But I've always had a story in mind about it--Caesar had seizures ["Moses supposes"?], you see, and if I can ever do some in-depth research on pre-Christian Rome, I'll write about the plot to rid the Empire of its lycanthropic rulers ...)
Alex Jay,
Interesting idea linking grand mal siezures and legends of lycanthropy. What brought you to link the two together? Just curious, as I'm always interested in the origins of legends and icons.
Cindy,
Say, why don't you shoot me a copy of your screenplay while you're at it? As soon as your e-mail settles down. See address above.
Chuck
By the way, since we're discussing "Ginger Snaps," I was pleased to note that it won an International Horror Guild award for Best Film this month. Cool.
Regards,
Joseph
Incidentally, Cindy...
You probably understood this but you were never part of the target in my shit-slinging Hitchcock rail; just wanted to state that point because my posting kind of put you in the line of fire. It may not have been clear when you first read it.
...those guys kin really piss ya off sometimes...lemme tell ya all about it over a drink here...
My AQ Score: 26
It would explain a lot. Both my parents graduated from Rice.
L.
DAVID LOFTUS: Actually, Rob's plural use of "none" was correct. ("None of them are empty.") Many people have been mistakenly taught that none always means "not one." But it's now generally agreed that none is closer in meaning to "not any (of them)", so use of a plural verb is perfectly acceptable in most cases. The singular use of none applies only when it means "none of it," or "no amount." (See works on grammar and usage by Wilson Follett, Bryan A. Garner, and Patricia T. O'Conner--they all agree that none is mostly plural in nature.)
Some examples: None of the chickens are hatched. None of the conversation is worth repeating.
Yes, I'm a pain in the ass.
Personally, I think of the American version of "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" as superior in one respect: the dynamic between the regulars is a bit more developed and adds to the whole character of the show.
Oh, and there's nothing funnier than the sketch that involves Colin in front of a green screen while Ryan and whoever act as studio guys and Colin has to try and guess what's being projected in back of him. Especially good when the projection was Colin's greatest moments.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. I'm sleeping with the lights on. Even a TV version of "Sixth Sense" creeps me out more than almost any movie.
Some brief responses to the passing flotsam....
Melissa -- Please let us know your reaction to "Seven Samurai," truly one of the utterly awesome works of film. And I hope you got the full 201-minute version, not one of half a dozen hacked-up jobs Americans had to settle for during most of three decades after its original release.
So Chris Long is a Haverford grad? I almost went there: They accepted me early, really seemed to want me, and it looked like a great place ... but I sorta got waylaid.
I must have read Kael's review of "2001" somewhere along the way, but I don't remember it. I'll venture a wild guess that she referred to the film as "unimaginative" in its human character aspect. The vast majority of homo saps in the movie were nearly colorless blanks. Yes, I know that was probably part of Kubrick's point, but it don't make for a warm fuzzy moviegoing experience. "2001" is a cerebral, even visual, marvel but it's kinda cold. In fact, I remain unconvinced that Kubrick had any particular skill at directing actors. He put music and light and sets and all other sorts of technical stuff together into an amazing whole, but I get the impression the actors kind of sank or swam on their own. If he cast sharp, inventive, or even just charismatic actors (George C. Scott, Kirk Douglas, Malcolm MacDowell) then they added to the whole, but if they didn't have the chops (Ryan O'Neal, Matthew Modine), then they got smothered in the mix.
(Speaking of chops, is anybody else joyful to see Vincent D'Onofrio getting regular work these days? The 2-hour season finale of "Law and Order: Criminal Intent" is on in 15 minutes and I'll have to log off. I think he's doing a kind of Fox Mulder thang on that show -- intuitive, magpie mind -- but it works anyway.)
Rob -- You were right the first time; "none is" is the proper construction, as in "not one is" or "no one is." Folks tend to get confused about this one because a plural noun or plural-sounding noun often shows up closer to the verb (e.g., "none of the turtles was able to make it to the water" or "none of the people in my group is going to the meeting" -- ""were" and are" sound so much more appropriate next to "turtles" and "people" ... but they're wrong). Best solution: Come up with a different way to say it. Your original phrasing was pretty ungainly, anyway.
I just saw the Pearce "Time Machine" cheap this evening. It wasn't that bad, but it wasn't terribly good. Some nice, understated visuals, so-so set design. Pearce was merely okay -- odd career choice for him, and the team let him down. What was the SECOND name mentioned in the museum, after Asimov and before Ellison?
I was much happier after coming out of an early matinee of the reissued "The Last Waltz." It struck me that Rick Danko had something of the same eyes/facial structure as Richard Gere, oddly enough. Joni Mitchell and Emmylou Harris, zowie...!)
RE THE WIRED AQ TEST:
Ha! I beat you! I got a 27!
("I take pride in besting people in meaningless little quizzes:
Definitely agree, Slightly agree, Slightly disagree, Definitely disagree...")
I'm still kind of cold on a period-authentic version of _The War of the Worlds_. Yes, I know, it'd be a really _right_ version of Wells's work, and it's be cool to see all that Victorian foofaraw get blasted to flinders.
But really, does it _need_ to be done? Why does a great book _have_ to be adapted into a movie? Is there a way of doing the _ending_ in some new and surprising way? I imagine a fiasco similar to that of the _Planet of the Apes_ remake.
Also, I'm thinking of a wonderful bit from _Invader Zim_ that parodied the ending. Zim and Gir are watching a movie on TV where the aliens-- a nice cross between Pal's and _Starship Troopers_-- are taking over. Scientists are panicking. One of them demonstrates, by snorting pepper, that the Aliens Are Allergic to Germs. We next see soldiers marching into battle and blasting huge wads of phlegm onto the aliens, which explode obligingly. Last title card reads "Hooray for Earth."
Re Asperger's. _Wired_ had a nifty article about the mini-epidemic of autism and Asperger's that's hitting Silocn Valley. The culture there selects for traits which are related to such syndromes, which means that people with predispositions towards it are both meeting women with similar tendencies, and having kids more frequently than they would have otherwise. The article's available at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=
I ought to mention something. My childhood wasn't terribly great, but there was a _lot_ about the way I dealt with things that made me wonder if I suffered from a form of autism or Asperger's. But there were a lot of areas where I didn't fit the diagnosis, so I chalk my earlier difficulties to my environment. (Still, I took the little test _Wired_ made available. Average score is 16, a score of 32 or higher may indicate something. I got 25.)
An odd resonance with George Alec Effinger's passing--Ruth Handler, creator of the Barbie Doll, just died Saturday.
Cindy~ You should differentiate between a Gulf Coast accent (a softer drawl), a West Texas accent (the more nasal one you reference), a Pan Handle accent (more like Oklahoma), an East Texas Accent (a hint of Cajun), and then a Dallas-Ft. Worth citified accent (what Yankees think Texans should sound like). I'm sure I've missed some, not having lived in Texas for almost twenty years, but I have friends, and I'm one of those "detail oriented" folks who pay attention to how people speak.
I'm half way through your script and liking it so far. How do you want notes? I almost wish you had acts & scenes so I could be specific.
L.
XANADU!
I love you!
Thank you for doing TWO reads of my script that was ABOVE AND BEYOND! The notes that you included were excellent. It's amazing how blind one can become after working on the same thing for a couple of years. I'd guess this is around rewrite 7 and you pointed out some important things that I have probably looked at fifty times and never identified.
I'm going to read y'all's script next.
Oh and the thing about Texas Accents is that they differ and vary greatly. We've discussed it on the board here before. A thick Nasal Texas Accent is different than a regular drawl... believe me.. it's profoundly different.
Thank you so much you are a wizard and a prince,
:)
Yours in debt and gratitude,
Cindy
SHANE: Yes, Brady was on the British version. In fact, at the Comedy Central website, there's a good clip of him improvising a song to sing to an astronomy student picked out of the auddience in the style of Barry White (actually, it seems more in the style of Peabo Bryson/James Ingram/Luther Vandross, but hey; it works).
Dennis - My son was diagnosed with Apserger's Syndrome in the first grade. He is now in the fifth grade and doing all right. The biggest problem is socialization. He is incapable of reading facial expressions, mostly because he never looks at people when he talks to them. However, he has a couple of good buddies that he hangs around with. He has a tested verbal IQ of 143 and a writing IQ of 90. He has never been able to connect the word he reads to the one he is trying to write. Actually, my son didn't start reading until he was given a copy of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." In one year his reading level went from ungradeable to a sixth grade level. My advice to you is, see a good pediatric neurologist, make sure all of his teachers understand his indiosyncratic behavior,and make friends with the school nurse and the counselors. I spend a lot of time talking to all of them and it has helped my son a great deal. Good luck and feel free to email me if you need anything.
Chris
Alex,
While Colin, Ryan, Greg, and Brad have all appeared on the British original WLIIA, I don't believe I've seen Wayne Brady appear on that version. Does anyone know if I'm right or wrong?
Best,
Shane
Lynn,
No, for shorthand purposes I could have easily said, "the black guy." I labeled Colin the bald guy and Ryan the tall guy.
BTW, I made an error when I said, "He also had his own show briefly last summer and even briefer last fall." His show returned this spring, however briefly.
Best,
Shane
ROB: As I said...'too British'. The fact that these nimrods are changing the setting of a story that is QUINTESSENTIALLY BRITISH to an American location just displays how clueless they truly are. I mean, just think how hilarious (and cool) it would be for well-mannered, well-bred, up-tight Victorian ladies and gentlemen to scurry this way and that with cries of "Cor blimey!" and "Goodness gracious!" as Martian monstrosities stalk towards them.
DENNIS: Thanks for the address, and I loved the designs. LOVED them. Now, if we get the action back to England, we're ready to rock 'n' roll. If there IS to be no originality in Hollywood to come, let them please return at least to the good, sturdy, meaty classics of old.
Oh, and...'Wushu'?
re WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY: Drew and Clive rival each other in great yuks very nicely. I don't really like comparing the two; to me, it'll always be just WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY. Favourite skits: poor ol' Colin as Captain Hair. Ryan as Dr. "His Name's Garry!" Frankenstein. Wayne as Chucky, the evil doll. Heavy death metal songs called WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BRACES. And on, and on, and on...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Dennis-- Last month's issue of Harper's Magazine (May, I believe) had a very lengthy and interesting article about a man who the author believed had Asperger's called "The Boy Who Loved Trains" (something like that). It was about a man who was obsessed with mass transit.
The magazine is in my car, but if you have trouble finding the article, post and I'll look it up for you.
Bermanator
DENNIS: Asperger's is actually very common, and often so faint or controlled as not to be noticed. Of all the development disorders, it's the best one to have (not that you necessarily WANT the choice, but ...). If you hit http://www.aspergers.com you'll get a LOT of info; only in the last decade or so has the disorder gained attention, but they're really making up for lost time. One other thing you should know: Asperger's is NOT autism. It shares with autism and PDD (Pervasive Developmental Disorder) some of the isolation and fixations, but it is very different, and very much a less severe problem. If Asperger's is a firecracker or an M-80, then autism is Fat Man or Little Boy. It'll be tough and it'll be frustrating, but this can be worked around.
I should also point out that the general impression I get is that most people I know of who have it are very intelligent, and often-to-usually go on to become rigidly successful in their chosen fields. Just a little ray of hope there.
(Note: I have a friend with mild Asperger's, and a friend whose daughter has PDD: I am NOT an authority.)
JAY, CHRIS: Don't forget Matt Ruff, and Michael Swanwick, and Chip Delaney now teaching at Temple, Scithers and Schweitzer, and a lot of others--as well as the great Golden Age of SF history that Philly has.
Yo, yo, and yo. Anon. Blues.
Irony of ironies:
Wizard World finally comes to Philly, on my birthday no less.
I, of course, have to drive out to Cleveland that Friday for a pre-trial hearing and won't be able to get back in time for the convention.
Now that's just not fair.
Dennis,
I would get an opinion from a physician, preferably one who specializes in pediatric neurology. The speech therapist might be a bit out of her depth on this one.
Meantime, there is a book that came out recently, called
AUTISM and PERVASIVE DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDER. It was written by Karen Seroussi who appeared on the Today show earlier this week. She said that her son was diagnosed with profound Autism. Through her research she discovered a link between Autism and food allergies to dairy products and gluten. She said that by eliminating these things from his diet his condition was reversed and he is now normal. She said she noticed the change in a relatively short amount of time. They had photos of her son and the difference was astounding.
How old is your son? I have one who didn't speak until he was three. He went to speech therapy for three years.They tested him and he qualified for the gifted and talented program this year.. he's eight. Sometimes it's just a matter of things coming at different ages for different kids. They are all snowflakes, no two are alike.
Take your time on that screenplay- I understand about water in the basement.
:)
Cindy
To the Berman Entities -
I will endeavor to do so in the future. Sorry for the confusion.
Chris - re: Eastern PA Ellisonites.
I think this forms the core body of a group that will influence our patron author to visit the area sometime in the near future. You don't deny the SusquehannaValley/Philly connection, yo. :)
The WizardWorld convention is coming! Let us represent!
Weirded out,
Jay
Jesus Tap Dancing Christ, now we have someone posting from Bryn Mawr, PA?
What's the deal with all the Ellisonites in the area?
Piers Anthony grew up around here too - he went to school down the road from me and he says in his Bio of an Ogre that there is a "science fiction-fantasy" beltway in SE Pennsylvania - a lot of writers have come from here and presumably fans as well. But I don't recall any names he mentioned.
By the way, Bryn Mawr sux!
-Chris Long, Haverford '93
Little Wushu: Here's a web address for you: http://www.pendragonpictures.com/WOTWKEY.html
This is the latest attempt at an adaptation of War of the Worlds. Originally they were going to update it but after 9/11 decided to set it in the original 1898 time period.
Cindy: Working on reading the script now. Unforseen plumbing problems are taking center stage at the moment. (Always fun when you turn on the water in the shower and you hear a waterfall forming in your basement).
To the group at large: I'm looking for some personal experiences here. My son's speech therapist just told my wife and I that our son may have a mild form of autism. I believe that the form she mentioned was Asperger's syndrome. Anybody out there have experience working with/raising mildly autistic children? I want to know what to do if the developmental asessment comes back to confirm her diagnosis.
Thank You,
Denns
HEATHER,
I can't answer your question. I don't know why you thought I was "dumb". If you had said that you percieved me to be stupid after meeting me in person I would say you thought so because I am beautiful. Since you've never met me face to face I am at a loss!
LOL!
I don't exactly know why you found a discrepancy in my screenplay "voice" and my persona on this message board. Maybe if you could give me specific instances when I posted something dumb I could figure it out.
My best friend said it was my Christianity and anti-gun control stance that gave you the false impression that I am sub-standard intellectually. LOL! Becky's such a bitch!
I'm just happy that you were surprised and impressed that the dumb girl from Texas could write.
INGENA was originally a short story I wrote around '82.More recently, I signed up to take a screenrwiter's course through UCLA and the only class that wasn't full was a science fiction screenwriting class. So I dug up my old INGENA story. It didn't take long to wake her up. Once it started going it wrote itself. I didn't even know what nasty thing she was going to do next and some of the things made me sick.
I do broadcast news on the radio. KNEL out of Brady, Texas.
I don't work for a newspaper. It's much simpler, I don't have to worry at ALL about typos or misspelling as long I can read it I can get my job done.
In any case, I think you're a nice person and I would love to read anything you would like to send me.
I'll be glad when my email works again!
Cindy
XANADU,
I have broken every one of my nails and STILL I can't get that attachment open! I'm really frustrated and longing to read what you wrote about my INGENA script. If you have any suggestions PLEASE let me know!
lol!
Thanks again for reading it!
:)
Cindy
RE: weak writing
I never read the Moonlighter stuff; I took the word of the board that it was lame. But taking potshots at unknown or barely-published writers for their weak prose is a piker's game. There's a lot of bad writing out there, some of it from very good writers. Everyone has produced their share of clinkers; it's part of the trade.
A more illuminating (certainly more incendiary) pursuit would be to cite weak passages from the very titans oft-revered on this board (i.e. Asimov, Bradbury, King, Ellison), and wonder what went amiss therein. Granted, you'd quite possibly be gutted, but at least you're taking on prose that merits attention. Moonlighter's clearly didn't.
KL
>>I thought the film was so bad it actually showed no sign of even being made by professional film-makers. It was as if they just picked a couple guys off the street and had them make a movie. <<
The grand irony of that statement is that the director was Simon Wells, great-grandson of H.G.
One of my all-time favorite short stories is Effinger's "Naked to the Invisible Eye," about a man with telepathy who becomes a major league pitcher (i.e. telepathically telling batters "Do not swing").
He will be missed.
SORRY THAT ONE GOT AWAY FROM ME...
ROB!
I see what you are saying and I understand. It makes sense that these two powerful men, each driven by his own intensity, prior success and need to do things " his own way", would lock horns.
As for your Gone With the Wind vs. The Third Man statement, I am always astounded by the former, no matter how many times I watch it. The latter I have yearned to see for a number of years but my remote location coupled with a painfully limited selection at the local video store has postponed that pleasure.
Another giant, Orson Welles. What a crop of amazing men they had floating around Hollywood in those days. Lucky women of that era.
Cindy
Rob: I freely admit being a member of the Philistine Nation in many areas of life... and I would never argue with you about Hitchcock. I just think it's funny that you're using that word after the hullaballoo I caused when I used it way back when.
Long may your tower waver,
Bermanator
PS--Remember, Jay and everyone, the Original Berman on here is Alex, but when I see the word "Berman," I still look. Please specify WHICH Berman you're addressing, por favor.
I hate to be a whiner here, but do you guys think you could start differentiating between Bermans?
We are a diverse and fun-loving genus, comprising many species ...
. Whether you think one or a few of his films were 'execrable' is your own problem
Washu,
Actually, funny you should mention it, a Hollywood producer/director IS working on a 'War of the Worlds' remake set in the Victorian era even as we speak; they've been working on the sfx over the last year. Except I believe - like Pal's version - it is placed here in the U.S. instead of Britain (fer God knows what reason; if you're going to set it in the period, might as well leave it in the place it began).
Since we were talking about Hitchcock here's another tidbit: Hitchcock one time considered filming 'War of the Worlds' in the 30's; he was disuaded by Wells himself.
Berman,
"I love it that you can call people who disagree with you Philistine."
...it's not that they disagree with me. No, noooooooo. It's just that they are, to put it TACTFULLY, so...well, so lost in commonplace ideas and lacking in aesthetic refinement and smug in their boorish, misguided notions. When they are better illuminated about Hitchcock they will prove otherwise. It's that simple, eh?
Oh, yeah: you've had YOUR moments too. There...you just helped me add 50 feet to my already wavering tower.
Berman -
Thanks for the link!
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen looks good, though I'm concerned they keep adding extra Victorian characters. I am MORE excited about the Alan Moore follow-up.
"Whose Line Is It Anyway" - Both versions are good. The American version seems a little forced and I, too, prefer Clive Anderson. I like how they break up the cast on the British version. There were many different and funny improv artists, though there were also many mediocre ones as well.
Couple things I forgot.
RICK: Congratulations and good luck in Atlanta!
(By the way, should I mention that there's a three-point-five-megaton nuclear missile missing somewhere right off the coast of Georgia? http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0803-08.htm
http://www.tybeebomb.com/story.html
I'm awful, ain't I?)
MORE FILM CRITIC STUFF: I'm currently reading a book of essays on film called BENEATH MULLHOLLAND by David Thomson, who also wrote a great bio of Orson Welles. I'm really enjoying the book; it shows Thomson's love of film and his hatred for the system in which films are made. Thomson reminds me pleasantly of Australian film critic Robin Pen, in his blending of serious film criticism with the lyrical and the bizarre. Definitely recommended.
Actually, I'd KILL for a few good Jack Finney adaptations ...
TODD: I've only heard of Effinger's difficulties secondhand, so I will demur, and wait for someone more knowledgeable to comment on them. I will also go into my bookcases and reread the stuff of his I have.
WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY: I have to ask: Are you guys talking about the American version, or the British one? I found that while the Drew Carey version was/is fun, I just enjoy Clive Anderson as host a lot more.
There's some great outtakes at http://www2.warnerbros.com/web/whoseline/index.jsp
JAY: If you want to look up myths and legends, start at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/myth.html
It's a clearinghouse of links for that sort of thing. Granted, it'll take you a little searching, as it's organized by regions and cultures, but I think you'll be okay finding what you need.
Me, I've always been of the opinion that the legends of lycanthropy stem from observations of grand mal epilepsy, but that may just be a bit of self-bias.
ON PAULINE KAEL, AND OTHER CRITICS: I agreed with her opinions on some things, disagreed with her on some things, but you can't deny that she was an excellent writer with a deep and abiding love for film--as well as a deep disappointment in what the film industry has put out these last few decades.
As for Ebert, et alia--I never liked SNEAK PREVIEWS, or SISKEL AND EBERT, or whatever the show metamorphized into. Not because the two were in any way bad critics--and about their successors, the less said, the better--but because the two, good writers on film, were set into a pattern, a paradigm, which allowed for only the briefest explanation of why they liked or disliked a film. And this pattern caused them to cut into even that short time, as they argued with each other over this or that point. Good writers, good chemistry; I just didn't care for the soundbiting nature of the show.
Also, I can't help but think that their visibility paved the way for other critics to also become visible, which led in my estimation to the rise of "quote whores"; critics whose sole purpose is to get their names on movie posters, who enjoy the benefits of "liking" bad films for pay.
H.G. WELLS: I think that the best hope we have for a good Wells adaptation isn't a Wells adaptation at all: I have high hopes for the movie based on Alan Moore's LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN. The Invisible Man is a player in this (although I've no doubt that Hollywood will demand his antics be toned down; he's a bit of a degenerate in the comic book), and the feel is very Wellsian/Holmesian. I believe James Robinson has written a screenplay faithful to Moore's vision--and if they screw it up, well, there's always the second LoEG miniseries, coming out in a few months ...
I wouldn't mind an H.G. Wells biopic, either ...
Re Wells adaptations. It's not an easy thing to do, considering that his stories are so well known, that they've set the mold for a lot of SF, and that most of them are suffused with the ideas of the late 19th century. I'm afraid that those who dramatize Wells are bound to update his works in some way.
Sure, a lot of it will be silly. Anyone remember the 1970's remake of _The Island of Dr. Moreau_? I could never understand how the "House of Pain" could be applied when Moreau's method was genetic manipulation rather than vivisection. (I did enjoy the Brando version, if only to watch Brando give another bizarre performance, and watch Fairuza Balk draw breath.)
But let's remember the really _good_ adaptations: namely, the updates of _The War of the Worlds_ created by Orson Welles and George Pal, and Pal's version of _The Time Machine_. And I'll even consider a film that _uses_ Wells, namely, _Time After Time_.
You are all so chatty, man, I have to wrap all my replies into one omnibus post.
Mr. Ellison, et al: This week I am having my seniors read "Ahbhu." I am pretty excited to hear what they think of it. Are there any questions you'd like me to ask them about it? Any subtle points I should highlight? I am teaching it in the context of an article about anthropomorphism and animal intelligence from DEFENDERS magazine.
Re: Werewolves-- Hey, I've always been fascinated by werewolves myself. Last year I finished a story called "The Lycanthrope" that combines elements inspired by "Ahbhu," the idea of a female werewolf, and a personal experience after losing a nonhuman friend of mine. If anyone wants to read it, just ask.
Re: kids today-- Of course kids are kids. I don't think kids have changed. I do think the world is different, though, even from when I grew up. These school shootings are a symptom of *something*, some negative, horrible change in the world. I wish I could offer some brilliant theory as to what exactly is wrong, but I can't. Overpopulation? Single parent families? Too much TV? Mind control rays from outer space? I don't know.
Rob: I love it that I've got you calling people who disagree with you Philistines.
Scott: Gerbils are not poop machines. Mice definitely are, but gerbils are desert animals (no, not dessert animals, no matter what the cats think). They rarely go to the bathroom.
re: names--I'm going with Cookie's suggestion of Thelma and Louise, after all. Thanks for all your suggestions. They made me laugh in a rather unfunny world these days.
Bermanator
LYNN: I watch WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY? at every given oppurtunity. Funniest show on the face of the planet. The fact that Wayne Brady's talents have been ignored for so long is criminal, and Ryan and Colin are the most dynamic comic duo since Abbot & Costello. I sincerely mean that.
ROB: Oh yeah, baby. I would kill for a new kick-ass WAR OF THE WORLDS movie, set in Victorian London but with all the genuinely awesome special effects they can whip up nowadays. Except it's not gonna happen, at least not in Hollywood. Why?
'Too British.'
JIM: Actually, Guillermo Del Toro said that THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE was such a deep, personal experience for him, he wanted to have just plain simple fun again. BLADE II gave him that oppurtunity. Hopefully, with HELLBOY coming soon, we'll see Del Toro show his REAL colours.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Cindy,
As I have too little time to argue with the Hitchcock philistines here (just follow along the dotted line of my data, guys; I know more about it than you do. Hitchcock didn't direct 'adaptations'; they all worked closely with him from the writing to the storyboard process. They were as much his puppets as the actors were. And to infer that WHO Hitch collaborated with determined the success of a Hitch film is a total misconception: collaborations with John Steinbeck and Raymond Chandler were vastly outshadowed by those with unknowns like Joe Stefano and John Michael Hayes. And he was at odds with Evan Hunter's literalized script for 'The Birds', as he sought more ambiguity. So your equation doesn't work. A film failed or succeeded because of Hitchcock, not them. Whether you think one or a few of his films were 'execrable' is your own problem; NONE of them are 'empty', as Jon called it. That's MY central point. Weaker films certainly include Topaz, To Catch A Thief, and Family Plot but they are few in measure to the great body of work he did throughout his career and they still have the same subtexts. Any of you misguided bozos see the films he did in Britain or during his silent period, like 'The Lodger' or 'The Farmer's Daughter'? Yes...I DO put Hitchcock above his collaborators...but only in the sense that I do with Wilder and Kubrick; all three were the engineers in control of the blueprints. In sum, you guys are fulla shit...I'm right...and life is that simple) my response goes to you.
Here was the problem with Selznick: drawn by the power of Hitch's British films he brought him over to do 'Rebecca', as you pointed out. Problems between the two began almost right away because they had their visions and their own styles. Hitch wanted to do things HIS way and he couldn't because Selznick was the boss at this point. Examples: Hitch would invariably take the core of a short story or novel and sweep aside the rest to framework it with his own themes. Selznick wanted to make adaptations - particularly the love stories - faithful to their sources. Hitch's editing method from the start of his career was to plan and storyboard every shot, leaving almost NOTHING on the editing room floor; Selznick always wanted lots of footage to toy around with in the editing room. So they both had their methods and their visions. In their projects to follow this creative friction only worsened. By the time they were doing 'Paradine Case' Hitch was more than anxious to get out of his contract so he could do things entirely his way. He could be NO ONE'S puppet and Selznick had been used to puppets for many years. Hitch, essentially, wanted all the puppets to himself. So, I'm not demeaning Selznick's talents. He had an incredible filmography, including 'The Third Man' (which I'll take to 'Gone with the Wind' any time). I'm just saying they stifled each other's creative objectives and you would never see pure Hitchcock in the American phase of his career until he'd been free of Selznick.
Washu,
Re: Wells adaptations. As we're talking about another British genius here, I would commit murder for more Wells adapatations - if only they would remain faithful to the works of the master. 'Moreau' AND 'The Time Machine' are fucking beautiful, extraordinary novellas. I loathe the recent Hollywood desecrations. Simon's great granddaddy ought to come down and put him over his knee with horsewhip in hand.
ZOE!
Could you post the place to find your story again? I'd love to take a look but I can't find it!
Cindy
CHRIS!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
I can wait as long as it takes. I'll send it right there.
Where are you going? I don't get out much so you can help me live vicariously. Cross country sounds exciting.
Cindy
Cindy,
I would be more than happy to read your screenplay. The only reason I haven't asked for a copy is that I am leaving on a cross-country trip in a week and I won't have time to read it until I get back. If you don't mind waiting until June for me to take a gander at your opus (that sounds dirty, doesn't it?) then sign me up.
Jay -- George wrote sf stories about Barbie, and collected kitschy
Barbie stuff.
Faisal,
I don't know if I thanked you for the information about translating my Final Draft version into a form that could be read by those without Final Draft.
You're keen.
THANK YOU!
:)
Cindy
CHRIS!
I thought Panic room WAS intense, but it doesn't take much to unnerve me when it comes to home intruder scenarios. I agree with the gas lighting-- I thought that was hilarious! Especially when the guy's arm caught on fire. I was laughing out loud (I was the only one in the theater to do so). I figured the film was over when that happened and like you I marveled that they thought we'd buy her response to that threat. But I was geared to "go there" and I kept watching. No I didn't think there was a chance than any of the main characters would be offed. Still I LOVED the opening credits!!!!!!!! I can't believe you didn't, but then maybe you've BEEN to a city. LOL!
As entertaining as I though Panic Room was-- I wouldn't go see it again. It wasn't THAT good. Quite frankly I enjoyed reading your posts today a whole hell of a lot more than the film. But your posts were EXCELLENT!! I was laughing so hard at your Time Machine observations that one of my kids came in from another room and asked what was so funny. I WILL go see Time Machine JUST so I can see the carriage scene of the girl's demise. GOD what a hilarious description!!! I thought your subsequent idea of how they could have made it even better was PRICELESS! Do you write screenplays? If so I'd love to read them. >
CHRIS????? READ MY SCREENPLAY PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE? I think it's better than Panic Room. I don't think it will bore you. And nobody puts a flame retardant blanket over her head and lights a gas filled room.
lol!
Right now I'm trying to get as much feedback as I can because I think there's a glitch there somewhere and I've looked at it so long that I can't find it. Different people will see different things. I want it to be as close to perfect as I can make it before I send it off to the festival. ANYBODY who helps me will be appreciated more than a fair amount.
C'mon, Chris pleeeeeeeeeeeeease?
Cindy
Harlan:
Never read any Effinger but condolences on his departure. I shall look out for his stuff (along with Tiptree's).
Chris,
Sorry, I couldn't find The Time Machine unintentionally funny, I thought it was a bit clunky and thought the future scenes were quite silly (and I could not believe the Lunar holiday camps excavation methods) but otherwise, it was lifted up by Guy Pearces performance. There were some good moments, including the visit to the destroyed library and the meeting between Iron's Morlock and Pearce. I could understand hating the film if you just remembered the last ten minutes (where did that get spliced from!) but otherwise I had no problem with it... and I did not find Pearce's girlfriends death at all funny. Did I miss something there?
I saw The Devils Backbone and do reccomend it though its the setting that makes it more worthwhile that the ghost story. Comparing it to Blade 2 though is like comparing a Lethal Weapon sequel to The Innocents.
Pauline Kael:
I have mixed feelings about her, she did write some interesting reviews but she also had a habit of using her column for personal attacks against film makers which had little to do with the films. She attacked Kubrick for giving his daughter a small cameo on 2001, would never give a favorable review to any Paul Schraeder film (he was a former 'Paulette') and repeated GM black propaganda when it came to looking at Michael Moore's doc 'Roger & Me'. Moore writes about trying to rebut Kael's accusations but was denied by the New Yorker who, apparently, did not print letters at the time.
Best.
FAQ
Lots of great wolf flicks,but ...any books...like folklore...some Bulfinch for supernatural legends?
Anyone?
Another great werewolf novel: Jack Williamson's DARKER THAN YOU THINK. This and the Endore are essential renderings of the lycanthropy myth, and are easily found. Again, read 'em.
You guys want to see a good flick? Forget all this PANIC ROOM and TIME MACHINE foofaraw, and go watch THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE (EL ESPINAZO DEL DIABLO). I finally caught a screening a couple of weeks ago, and was BLOWN AWAY. With all apologies to MEMENTO, AMORES PERROS, IN THE BEDROOM, THE BELIEVER, MULHOLLAND DRIVE and GOSFORD PARK, THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE is, hands down, the best film of 2001. This ghost story set in an orphanage during the Spanish Civil War is evocative, richly textured, and haunting as Hell. Guillermo del Toro's script reminds me of James (M.R. AND Henry) in places, and his direction is deft and assured. (Forget Blade II, this is leagues away from that movie.) Also, this film has a really nice, understated use of CGI, which is a rarity these days.
I can't emphasize this enough: SEE IT. If it's not playing in a local theatre, hunt down the video/DVD when it appears. You WILL thank me.
Harlan~ There are never enough tears when you love someone. Each tear shed for our loved ones passed makes their journey down the river easier, connects them to us one final time as they trail a fingertip in the water. The day there are no more tears is the day we take that journey ourselves.
Shane~ RE: Wayne Brady, a damn talented comedian. Is it a sin to say he was the black guy on "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" Or are we just left to assume as much from the list of impersonations that he nails? He is one of the most gifted improvisational actors I have ever seen. Having been an improv street actor, I can say I've learned a thing or two from all of the talent on that show. I just don't understand why we can't come out and say, the black guy on WLIIA. I feel like Crocodile Dundee talking about the 'black fellas'. "It's an accurate description, innit?"
Decidedly anti-PC and recalling Bradbury's words about there being more than one way to burn a book, I remain,
L.
CHRIS L:
You said it. After ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU and now THE TIME MACHINE, a lot of us should sign a blood pact to unleash the ebola virus within the heart of Hollywood if we're fed ONE MORE teeth-grinding H.G. Wells adaptation.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Faisal:
Great comments on Hitchcock. I think Cindy said she'd never seen a Hitchcock film she didn't like - I'm thinking Cindy hasn't seen some of Hitch's duds. That's nothing to hold against him. Everyone other than Kubrick has made bad movies. As much as I love his best material, I find myself getting bored sometimes with even his mid-level work which is much better than other directors' but still feels somewhat unsatisfying to me because of the endless repetition and feeling of formula.
As for Time Machine, though, are you sure you saw the same movie I did? I mean, that movie was bad bad BAD BAD BAD!!! It was so bad, I think I wound up feeling a mild fondness for it. It is so inept it is perfect material for a future episode of MST3K should that glorious show ever return.
I thought the film was so bad it actually showed no sign of even being made by professional film-makers. It was as if they just picked a couple guys off the street and had them make a movie. Just basic, competent editing, writing and acting is hard to come by in the movie. I certainly hope the scene where the girlfriend gets run over by the carriage is meant to be funny because about 2/3 of the theater laughed out loud when it happened. I think they meant it seriously though, judging by Pearce's reaction to the event.
Actually, at that point, they could have saved the movie by turning it into a full-blown comedy rather than an inadvertent one. They could have had himkeep coming back in time trying to save her but each time she winds up getting killed in funnier, more absurd ways. He would get so jaded by it, he wouldn't even react to her various deaths and he would eventually just give up and wander somewhereelse in time.
As it was, this movie was every bit as bad as any Ed Wood movie or Manos, the Hanf of Fate or Robot Monster or any similar dreck. Which makes it better, in its way, than crap like Planet of the Apes.
I'm not trying to dig up any dirt or trash or anything with this question, so please don't jump on me as a ghoul: I looooved George Alec Effinger's work. I was just packing up a bunch of books to prepare for my eventual move, and when I came across my Effinger section I made a mental note that it was time to do some re-reading. This was Friday night.
Now he is gone and I am taken back with shock. It appears that some of you on the board are aware of WHY he is gone....comments about finally being at peace. My God, I know nothing about what has been going on.
Please, don't take this the wrong way, but he was one of my favorite SF/Fantasy authors and I am interested in knowing what happened to bring down more of Death's 'charms' upon those who least deserve it.
-TODD
Rick - Great news! Good for you...
Harlan - that feeling is the price paid for experiencing the world and the people in it. Taking chances. Yes, awareness of how dark the world can be, yet still having a willingness to explore, to find some of the nobility and friendship out there. Some say the human heart is the seat of emotions and home to many conflicts and contradictions. That's what makes those leaps of faith and discovery all the more daring.
P.A. Berman - re: your post of Friday 26th April.
My wife, the doctor, is a teacher. When we met, she was director of testing and assessment for her district. Since she is an educator first and not a politician, she made the choice to return to working with learning disabled students one-on-one. It wasn't an easy decision, and she's had many challenging days. When you find yourself in that place, wondering what you could have done differently, remember "the person who saves one life eventually saves the world." Hang in there.
Hitchcock.
Alfred Hitchcock was a fine film maker but to elevate him above his collaborators does both them and the films a disservice. Hitchcock knew how to tell a story visually, he did not know what stories to tell and thats why he hired great writers such as Ernest Lehmann (North by Northwest), Anthony Schaffer (Frenzy) or Evan Hunter (The Birds) to provide or adapt scenarios of which he directed.
I pay some credence to William Goldman's remarks that Hitchcock may have felt overwhelmed by Truffaut and co. concerning his work, which was very well done entertainment, and elevated them to something else. Thus explaining why Hitchcock went from working on popular thrillers to mis-fires such as The Birds or Topaz.
Hitchcock made some great films, he also made some bad ones. To Catch a Thief is smugly weak, Topaz is just excreable and Rope is an over-rated technical exercise that would be later emulated in live TV drama.
Hitchcock worked with good people, but as soon as they weren't around, the quality of his films went down. Look at something like Vertigo (My favourite Hitchcock film) and compare it to Torn Curtain. There is already a noticable difference in tone due to the sacking/resignation of regular composer Bernard Herrmann.
But I do wish that H.G. Wells did not discourage Hitchcock from pursuing an adaptation of War of the Worlds, it would be a much better adaptation than the current version we have.
BTW - Has anyone seen the new adaptation of The Time Machine. It was actually quite good until the last ten minutes. I wish I could have walked out at the point where Guy Pearce and Jeremy Irons go mano el mano. Otherwise, I was surprised by the attacks this film recieved and it being interpreted as a comedy. It was anything but that.
FAQ
Cindy,
Well,that's why I told you to see Panic Room even though I hated it.
To answer your question, I was in a good mood and fully expected to enjoy the movie. I didn't like Fight Club but there wereenough good things in that movie that I still had Fincher relatively high on my list of directors who are must-see.
I just hated every choice he made in Panic Room. Opening credits? Annoying as hell. But people have raved about them.
As for intense, honestly, I am at a loss to understand how anyone could think that about this movie but, again, there are plenty of people who felt that. I found the entire scenario so ludicrous and the characters so uninvolving, I could never feel any tension in even a single scene. I really wanted to either leave or go out to my car to grab my a book and there were a few times I just closed my eyes and dozed off a bit.
I feel the scene with Jodie Foster lighting a spark (that shouldn't be too much of a spoiler) is so colossally, monumentally, legendarily and titanically stupid, it sets some kind ofnon-Pauly Shore record in the history of cinema. It did make me laugh, though, just to think that any writer or director could actually put such a scene in their movie.
Basically, it's a seige movie where there's never a threat to anyone and none of the characters are of any interest. Did you, for even one tenth of one second, feel there was even the slightest chance anything would happen to the two main characters? I never did.
Hey Rob,
I am with you, I've never seen a Hitchcock film I didn't like, but what was that about David O. Selznick?
Alfred Hitchcock's agent couldn't get a bid for him at the time Selzneck signed him. He hadn't worked on an American film until Selznick hired him to direct Rebecca. Selznick was responsible for giving Hitchcock the publicity buildup which afforded him the power he needed to create his peerless brand of art.
Selznick was one of the biggest proponents of all times of strict adherence to the original book or story. He said he never understood why motion picture people insist on throwing away something of proven appeal to substitute things of their own creation. I believe that is why he was able to produce Gone With The Wind with such astounding results.
Although I personally would have enjoyed seeing Hitchcock's adaptation of the beginning of Rebecca in which Max is smoking a cigar that makes other passengers on the boat sick, I can see why Selznick demanded fidelity to the original to maintain the integrity of the film.
He was one of the greatest filmmakers of all times.. if not THE greatest filmmaker of all times.
IMHO
Cindy
JAY- Working on? Not 'zactly sure which area you mean, so I'll tell you the two major things. In the reading department, I'm doing my best to read three things at the moment, "Left Hand of Darkness" for the Sci-Fi course, "Play It As It Lays" for American Lit, and "Essential Ellison" (I'm skipping around, just finished reading "I have no mouth...") for fun. All make interesting night-time reading. In the writing department, I'm editing and working on a "short" story of mine (URL is posted about 60 or more postings ago).
Did I answer the right question? *grin* 'Cuz other than that, I'm workin' on graduating... two and a half weeks!
--Dot-a-licious
--Zoë Rose
Aw, for the love of God, will this month never end? George Alec Effinger meant a lot to me.
Though George lived in New Orleans, he was a Cleveland local--grew up right next to Euclid Beach Park, which, when we were all ripening and small, was Cleveland's Disneyland. There have been a hundred homages to the old place, but none better than GAE's "Terrific Park," a strange little story where Euclid Beach is instantly recognizable to any clevelander of the right era.
George was also an early promoter of this medium. He was active in the early years of the Literary Forum, so long ago, some of us were still calling this the ARPAnet. He even arranged to put an entire novel ---THE EXILE KISS-- online before its publication. I've always been honored that he chose my little forum instead of the specifically science-fiction forum on the same ISP.
He was an experimenter, and a laughing madman. Who but GAE would have written a book called MAUREEN BIRNBAUM, BARBARIAN SWORDSPERSON? Who else could have pulled it off? Make no mistake, this stuff is the "Legally Blonde" and "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer" of its era, done much better and much, much earlier.
I called the New Orleans AP (who is one of my online staff, actually) to let her know about this. I hope that'll lead to good coverage. He deserves it.
--Alex
I went to see Panic Room last night. It was intense and I did get into it. The camera shots that Chis was talking about didn't bother me that much, but I'm not preganant. I think if I had been it might have made me want to whoops a couple of times. Chris are you sure you were in an even keeled mode when you saw it? I've noticed that if I'm in a bad mood or the day has been particularly stressful sometimes things grate on my nerves that might not otherwise.
Jodie Foster is just hard to beat. Forrest Whittaker was perfectly cast. Dwight Yoakum... well I'm a HUGE Dwight Yoakum fan from way back. Even if Sharon Stone said dating him was like eating a " dirt sandwich", he plays white trash with the highest degree of authenticity of any actor I've ever seen. Now he adds consumate bad guy to the growing list of his specialties.
You HAD to love the opening credits--SPECTACULAR! I almost thought it wasn't going to matter how bad the film was, the opening credits were so amazing I got my four bucks worth.
I went to see Show Time with my second daughter a couple of weeks ago, she was in a rotten mood. During the first part of the film she was getting agitated and it had nothing to do with the film. She said, " Is there even a PLOT in this thing?" A few moments later there was a closeup shot of Robert De Nero and she leaned over and said, " He needs to get that thing removed from his face." GEEEZE, Savannah could you be a little critical?
As in Nature vs. Nurture, I think it's 60-40. 60% film- 40% previously exixting mood.
Cindy
I hadn't seen it here - of course, I may have missed it completely, so excuse me if this is a rerun - but Reginald Rose passed away back on April 20th at age 81. That he wrote "12 Angry Men" was enough in my book; but I found him and Paddy Chayefsky through my early Rod Serling fixation, and where I could find his plays (or teleplays), I was justly rewarded.
KAREN -
I have to ask: What about the Barbie?
ZOE(dot-dot) -
Whatcha workin' on?
JOSEPH -
It's fun. I wish I could give the kid a radio headset so when he's out in left field looking for lucky clover I can warn him about the pop fly heading his way.
Out tracking werewolves last night...time for sleep.
Jay
Jon,
I'll accept your correct spelling of Kael opposed to my Kale but I pretty much stop there. What was it you said? "Hitch is pretty empty when without the right collaborators"? That's, in my view, arguable at best. I utterly disagree with the comment: One, because ANY 'collaborator' did things as he would have them do. Two, whether it was one of his tv episodes directed by himself - I saw four, one with Joseph Cotten as a man paralyzed from head to toe in a car wreck, the entire episode composed of shots of him lying there unable to speak - or any of his films under his full control (opposed to when Selznick was in charge) the cynicism and dark humor that characterized his subtexts of paranoia, identity, punishment, absolution, and 'moms' were always there. His personal neuroses and eccentricities were imprinted on everything he did. The touch of genius. So, whether the work was one of his successes or failures it was never - understand? - NEVER 'empty'. Three, your supposedly much-needed collaborators did not always measure up (to suit what he was after, that is) - people like Raymond Chandler who he'd let go and Evan Hunter - and still he'd emerge with a brilliant success.
Kael couldn't handle his preference to repeat himself thematically. Yet, whether we're talking about his archetypal outings like Frenzy, North By Northwest or The 39 Steps; or his more eccentric variations like Vertigo, Rear Window, Lifeboat, Psycho, Strangers on a Train, or The Birds; or his experiments like Rope, the strokes that were his signature made every one of those films artistically unique. And failure or success, you can look at them all over and over and over and discover nuances you didn't see before (Rear Window is a helluva an example). All you have to do is look at his beginnings - films like The Lodger and Blackmail - and you see the consistancies no matter who he'd been collaborating with. In his early days he was influenced by Murneau and the Magic Realist painters like de Chirico.
I'm not going to scrounge for passages I read by Kael a long, long time ago. I gave you the essence of her gripe - to me a vacuous one. But I know there were a number of essays I felt were very near-sighted. I no longer remember them specifically.
You were WAY off on this one.
I just heard about George, and I'm very, very sorry. The last
time I spoke with him, he said he was starting to write
again, and that he was rediscovering how much fun it was.
I was just thinking about him the other day and wondering
if he was still finding it fun. I can't believe he won't be
wandering into any more rooms and starting up a discussion on
Barbie. (I haven't been able to look at a Barbie for years
without thinking of George.) I hope he really is at peace,
finally.
It's two in the A.M. and I'm wide awake - how's that for sick and wrong?
PETER- My thanks for the critique you sent me and the posted backing - far more than I deserve, so my thanks.
RICK- Good luck in GA. I also have some family/friends who live in Atlanta, so I'll ask around and see if anyone has got some useful information for ya re: rental housing, etc.
HARLAN- My condolences; thankfully, only a few more days in April left. Here's to hoping for a brighter May.
JIM DAVIS- Thanks for the suggestions. I might creep in and take a look at possibly sending the story a few places, we shall see!
Well, nothing better than a night spent catching up on the 'board posts and reading a few stories, eh?
--Dotted and dotty,
--Zoë Rose
Rob re: Kael: Which parts of Kael related to Hitchcock piss you off? I've always found the comments of Pauline Kael and others about Hitchcock to be refreshing tonics at points -- namely, riffs about Hitchcock's movies being really good movies when they're written by good screenwriters and acted by good actors. I find Hitchcock criticism to be bumpff when it asserts the wonderfulness of _The Birds_ or _Marnie_ or _Topaz_ when the movies lack engaging characters, engaging dialogue, and much of anything else except techincal skill. Hitchcock's greatness as a director may be defined by some by the watchability of a film like _The Birds_, but Hitch is pretty empty without collaborators who can do something, or who at least have enough power to assert themselves on the set.
Kael's love for DePalma, though, is a bit baffling.
Jon
...I mean, "none ARE always right"
Chris,
Don't get me going on Kale...her comments on 2001 only scratch the surface; her comments on Clockwork were equally narrow-minded as were her precis on Hitch and Wilder. Step on their feet (unreasonably) and I leave the auditorium. All three did so much work that moved me deeply.
...and Joseph,
Since your comments on Ebert and Siskel have some relevance here: the interesting thing about Siskel supposedly not liking sf is that 2001 was his number one favorite movie of all time. For this reason I think he raised the bar for sf movies and what he demanded of them (although he underrated 'Altered States' terribly), thereby creating a good balance for Ebert's inordinate generosity. With Siskel gone I think that check is gone and it has left Ebert seeming a bit more looney. All the same, there's no one we agree with all the time. The important message those guys gave us with their chemisty and their heated arguing as critics - for the first time ever - is that none in their profession is always right. It was a departure from the eons of ego-driven self-indulgence critics had suffocated us with - and largely continue to do so.
Earlier babble here inspired me to put on a lycanth movie so I just watched 'American Werewolf in London' - nearly my favorite of the genre...
Griffin Dunne (as the talking 'meat loaf' of the Walking Dead): "David...I'm not having a good time here."
Hey Harlan, how's Ed doing, by the way? Do please give him my best the next time you talk to him.
J
Harlan: Ooof. I can recall reading several of Mr. Effinger's short stories over the years, in a number of collections the names of which now escape me. But I recognized seeing his name again, years later, because I really liked the stuff. I particularly remember stories he wrote for the delightful Batman books Martin H. Greenberg edited, years ago. I am deeply sorry for your loss. And I worry. Please check in again soon and let us know how you're doing.
J
The Wayne Brady Show
http://www.abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/waynebrady/index.html
ALL: Laurie and I have just returned from a deeeLIGHT filled evening watching Wayne Brady perform. This is the third time we've paid cash money to attend his show and this was the best one to date. For those of you who are scratching your heads, Brady is on the Thursday night ABC show, "Whose Line Is It Anyway?," hosted by Drew Carey. Brady isn't the tallest guy (Ryan Stiles), nor is he the baldest guy (Colin Mochrie), but he is the singingest/dancingest guy. He also had his own show briefly last summer and even briefer last fall. His 1 1/2 hour act incorporated elements of both shows, with a finale that'll rock you back on your heals: he does spot-on impersonations of Stevie Wonder, Louis Armstrong, Sam Cook, James Brown, Sammy Davis, jr. and a hilarious parody of Michael Jackson. If he comes to your town, please take the opportunity to see him live, you'll have a GREAT time.
http://abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/whoselineisitanyway/index.html
Shane
What can I say, I'm a Kaelite. I dug almost everything that mad, bad, dangerous-to-know woman wrote, even when she eviscerated something dear to my heart. She could really write, and she championed "lowbrow" movies when it wasn't cool to do so.
As for Roeper...the term "Peter Principle" springs to mind. (From the American Heritage Dictionary: "The theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent." In other words, unless they REALLY fuck up, people will be rewarded with a higher position if they stick around long enough, even when they're completely unqualified. I'm sure we all know someone from work this term applies to.)
Rob,
I'll give a paltry explanation for Ebert's occasional head-scratcher:
1) he tries to judge films based on well they work, not against other movies. Fair enough.
2) He's a self-admitted critic with his own opinions. Sometimes he gives a break to something he enjoys, even if it's not of the highest quality. But he'll freely admit it. any good critic will acknowledge that they have blind spots and prejudices; Siskel, for instance, never cared for science-fiction movies all that much, while Ebert was much more enthusiastic about them (one of the last arguments I remember of theirs was whether "Dark City" was genius or slop).
As for "Ginger Snaps," here's two websites to whet your appetite:
The official site:
http://www.gingersnapsthemovie.com/
A fan site with gorey pictures (slightly spoiley):
http://www.ginger-snaps.com/
And my last word on GS is: "Best piercing ever."
Regards,
Joseph
HAVING DECIDED THAT REALITY IS A MUG'S GAME, JIM RETURNS TO THE SAFE WOMB OF CYBERSPACE AFTER A WEEK'S ABSENCE:
RICK: I want to host Webderland for May, i.e. pay its bill for the month. Yes, I'm serious. Your little website has done a lot to edify and entertain me, and I want to return the favor. E-mail me with the amount, and I'll kite a check your way. (And don't even THINK of saying "No" to this. I'm in a real generous mood, so take advantage, schmuck.)
ON GEORGE ALEC EFFINGER: Damn. I really enjoyed his novel WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and his shorter work was always a hoot to read. I actually traded a few posts with him on an old Compuserve forum (I THINK it was Compuserve. I was a real ISP whore back in the early '90s--Prodigy, AOL, Compuserve, Pipeline, it didn't matter to me, I'd shove any 'ol disc in my floppy drive without thinking twice), and he was nothing less than polite and generous in his responses to me. Again, always: What a loss.
RE WEREWOLVES: The best fictional treatment of the lycanthropy myth that I've ever read is Guy Endore's THE WEREWOLF OF PARIS. This 1933 novel was a favorite of Robert Bloch, and is still in print, though you may have to do a little searching on-line. Excellent book with a very continental tone--it reads like something translated from the French, even though Endore was an American. Hunt it down, you won't regret it.
ZOE ROSE: I haven't read your story yet, but I will as soon as I get my new, fancy-shmantzy, space-age copier/fax/printer/scanner/cappucino maker to work. As it is, the damned thing is holding the title for Most Expensive Paperweight In The Davis Manse. One question: Why don't you try to publish this? I mean, you've actually written the thing, so why not get paid for it instead of letting any slobbo who creeps along print the whole thing for free? WRITER'S MARKET has a comprehensive list of short-story markets, if you don't know where to submit it.
SOME NAMES FOR BERMANATOR'S GERBILS: Franny and Zooey. Frick and Frack. Mick and Keith. Fillip and Dollop.
SCOTT AND MELISSA: Harlan and DTS are right. You guys need to lighten up a teensy bit. I mean, when the author of "How's The Night Life On Cissalda?" calls you a "termite", odds are good that he's only kidding. Hell, he can take as good as he gives--I think I called him a "rat bastard" in my second week here, and he didn't even bat an eye. (Is it really a Jewish thing, as Harlan suggests? Maybe. My Goyishe friends DO seem a little quicker to take offense at my seemingly-insulting-but-really-affectionate nicknames.) In any case, he means well, and a Harlan-induced injury is a rite of passage here. With all the scars and missing limbs, a gathering of Webderland regulars would look like a convention of Rubber slaves from the Congo, circa 1900.
FINDER: I know I'm late, but add my kudos to the pile regarding your chase of the purse thief. If people everywhere had some of your guts, there wouldn't be as much petty crime, you can be sure. (Though, in future, be careful if/when you do something like that again. Some of them DO carry weapons, as I once found out. No injuries, but I'm lucky I didn't get my intestines handed to me.)
As for the other thing...again, I wasn't trying to call you out or embarrass you. Sexuality can be a very hard road to travel, and none of us are given any maps at birth to navigate it. I'm 35, and I'm no better at understanding the whole whole sex/romance/intimacy ragout than I was at 16. Still, I'm glad for every foray with the opposite sex, no matter how disastrous the outcome; as cliched as it sounds, it really IS better to regret things you've done than things you've HAVEN'T done. Just don't let fear rob you of some wonderful experiences. If your last post is any indication, you richly deserve them. (And Hell, women throw themselves at SERIAL MURDERERS, for Chrissakes, so why shouldn't a gen-you-wine HERO get some action, as well?)
XANADU!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR READING INGENA for me!
My email's screwing up so I have to respond to your critique here.
Thanks for pointing out " lightning"-- I needed that! LOL! I'd like to blame it on the spellcheck but it all goes back to me not recognizing the error.
No theme, no message, buddy-- just a little yarn to distract and amuse. I'm with Samuel Goldwyn on that one. He said, " If you want to send a message go to Western Union."
lol!
I think you give me too much credit actually. It's a diversion, solely intended to entertain. Really!
I'll go back over the Nila and Jerome conversation, sounds like that needs to be looked at again.
I ALSO read my scripts aloud! Usually to my kids and a few others I trust. Speaking of my kids they'd shoot me if I took out the party scene in the middle of nowhere. That IS how these kids party in the Hill Country. It is an exact representation of rural Texas teenage recreation. A frightening, appalling and dangerous, and yet accurate depiction. This is how it's been in this Texas county for generations in spite of the rattlesnakes and cottonmouth water moccasins, rabid coyotes, bobcats and foxes AND mountain lions.
These kids jump off 40 ft.bluffs into the river( just pay attention to jump "out" there's a shelf of rock directly below but you'll be just fine, is how they put it) they chase cotton mouth water moccasins UNDER the water and CATCH them with their hands. They also catch rattlesnakes for money every early spring. About five years ago a highschool sophomore showed up at my back door with one, he said he figured my husband might want it and he didn't have a box for it. It was around four feet long and he had it by the head.
I would DEFINITELY put my teenagers in a safer place. I don't let my kids ride bikes! But I'll tell you something else about my own kids. My oldest girls were high school cheerleaders and my oldest son was a football player and they did these horrible things. So I got it from the source. After they grew up they told me the stories, verified by my husband ( 4th generation from this County)who did the same things when he was a kid.
But HEY they didn't run away and join a carnival!
LOL!
Tomato, tomahto. Kids everywhere do things that would mortify their parents if they knew.
My husband upon whom the Billy Character is based said that rural teenagers don't care about wild animals they grow up with them here. This is rural Texas and as he put it " They don't go to the Mall they go to the Pasture. They sneak down riverbeds drop behind bluffs and hide in ravines to build their campfires, so as not to be seen by the local law enforcement". He said he knows because he built them there when he was a kid and he caught them there when he was a cop.
He assures me that Ingena would not be something they would fear, she would be something that they prey upon.
I went to my big kids for accuracy when writing the teenager scenes. Pretty much drawn from life. On the jr. high age boy's scene I went to my 13 year old son for accuracy. He was the one that came up with the one kid correcting the other kid's english he says he does that to his friends and they hate it. Also he brought up the Pepsi gun control issue. I thought that was hilarious so I used it.
Lots of the script came from real life.
As for the Bovine Surrogacy Center, I thought that up 20 years ago, before they even started having successful trans-species gestational trials. I also came up with INGENA 20 years ago before everyone knew the term recombinant DNA. She was originally a short story.
As for making Billy more proactive.. there is a thought. I might have to go back to the drawing board on that one.
My instructors in the UCLA screenwriting program said they loved INGENA in fact one of them said he hated to use the phrase pulsepounding but he did. I hammered it out there with a gun to my head and a deadline each week.
I think it's tomato tomahto.. it's PANIC ROOM! But mostly it's about entertainment.
Tell me this.. did you read it all in one sitting? Were there places it slowed down or made your mind wander to the fridge? If so, then I need to know where so I can shore it up.
Meantime you are such a treasure for reading it for me! I would love to read something for you sometime if you like. You are a very remarkable and brilliant man and I would love to see what you build in YOUR garage.
:)
Cindy
I'm two-thirds done the new Robert Caro book on Lyndon Johnson-- I've just passed the account of his heart attack.
Gang, if you have NOT yet read Caro's books-- the three volumes on Johnson, and his masterful book on Robert Moses, _The Power Broker_-- you are missing out on something special. Caro isn't just a biographer, along the lines of Stephen Ambrose or David McCulloch. He ranks alongside of Gibbon or MacCauley. These are monumental, brilliant, informative, MANDATORY works that operate at the highest levels of history and biography.
There's another joy to be found here. For decades now, I've been reading and hearing people yabber on about the misunderstood genius of Richard Nixon. There's the bullshit about being "in the arena," the presentation of "triangular diplomacy" as some kind of insanely subtle masterstroke, the "brilliance" of the Southern Strategy, and much, much more. But as you read Caro, you learn that Nixon was a fucking mental _pygmy_ next to Lyndon Johnson. Just read Caro's account of how Johnson sank the Bricker Amendment, and _try_ to imagine Nixon pulling off the same feat. I get a great deal of satisfaction from knowing that.
There was a lot to like about Pauline Kael and a lot to just scratch your head over.
Her description of 2001: A Space Odyssey as "remarkably unimaginative" has to go down as one of the all-time stupidest things anyone has ever said or written. I mean, not liking 2001 is bad enough but to each his or her own, I suppose (no, not with 2001, actually) but to call it "unimaginative?"
I think that movie whizzed so far over her head she never even felt the breeze.
Harlan,
I saw your post only now: I'm very sorry about your losses this month.
Chris,
Well...after spending half the day retching upon reading, "...better than the original" and expelling the Roeper impurities from my system I can conclude the issue by saying I take occasional glimpses of Ebert and Roeper and that's it; haven't watched it since Siskel's frustrating all-too-early departure.
I agree a bit with your "schitzophrenic" stamp on Ebert's material; he'll thread his reviews of artistically worthy films with solid data to support his points, then give flicks like Star Trek: The Motion Picture or Blade three stars or more.
I used to like Richard Shickel and John Powers a bit. I was never able to warm up to Pauline Kale as she routinely thrashed three Masters: Wilder, Hitchcock and Kubrick. No: she was never able to win me over after that.
Harlan (m'favorite lycanthrope): GINGER SNAPS! That's one I'd never heard of. Y'got me curiosity. I'll look for it.
BTW, while we're on the subject of film: one time you told me Ken Russell caught your fancy. Could you tell me which films in particular? I never gave him a chance because I'd read so much negative stuff about him...from the critics.
Some time I would absolutely dig seeing your film library as I have an ample one myself. The memorabilia I saw had me transfixed salivating; beautiful stuff. I hope sometime you could tell me or us more about it...the vintage posters and books especially.
Harlan,
This month gets worse and worse. My consolations on Effinger.
Jay & Cindy,
I always remember the Dave Barry comment about t-ball and Little League. Think of it as every parent having a joystick, and your job is to control your player when the ball gets anywhere near them. Problem is, they're either active as hell or contemplating how nice of a blue the sky is - not a bad attitude to have during a Little League game.
Regards and best wishes,
Joseph
Cindy -
I noticed this in my son, too. It's just shock. He scooped up a grounder and threw it to first ahead of the batter and it blew his mind. He was just so excited he left the field to come tell his mother and I up in the stands. I had to escort him back to the field.
It's all new and exciting. Hitting the ball into the field (to the sound of cheers) and catching, running, stealing...just enjoying it all gives them pause to say "HEY! I DID IT!"
T-Ball is great because it focuses on the fundamentals and the skills over score and victory. While it's important to win, it's more important to learn HOW to win. I think T-Ball is time for kids like yours and mine to enjoy the game and have fun.
So if she's stunned, that's great. Eventually, she'll get used to it and move onto lesson #2...TAKE THE BASE! :)
Jay
Re Ebert and Roeper. Suddenly I'm happy in not knowing enough about a subject, because I have _never_ seen Ebert and Roeper. I don't know why I lost interest in watching Ebert and Siskel-- maybe it was the local affiliate's putting them on at odd times, I dunno. But I'd always liked Siskel, and I was pleasantly surprised when I noticed that I was agreeing with him more then Ebert. Who, apart from a few reviews I disagree with, has never struck me as a bad sort.
After Ebert and Siskel decided to go into syndication rather than stick with PBS, PBS restocked the show with Jeffrey Lyons and Michael Medved. Lyons struck me as a hyperactive dunce, and thus well-suited to mass-media figurehead-dom. But Medved was, and remains, a repulsive little troglodyte whose aesthetic sense is better suited to a Soviet Comissar than an American film critic. His book _Hollywood versus America_ was a vicious, dishonest piece of ugliness that, thankfully, didn't give him enough public recognition to give him a political career. This is a man who _aspires_ to the lofty heights of a William Bennett, for Crisesakes.
Meanwhile, he still draws breath while Geo. Effinger no longer graces us with his presence. I'd trade the two in a second.
Hey Jay,
My daughter just started T-ball too! She's five.
She can hit it harder than most of the kids on the team even though she's tiny for her age. The only problem is that as soon as she hits it she likes to admire her handiwork, laughing at the others who scramble after the ball. While she's enjoying the mayhem she forgets to run.
Any tips?
Cindy
5 Left at Amazon.com zshop
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y4712886Y6765641/qid=1019962329/sr=1-1/104-5701025-0440729
I can't think of a better way to spend my downtime than to start with that book. I will look for it now.
Harlan -
I send you all the positive energy I've earned this week. Most of it comes courtesy of my son who just started T_Ball Saturday and made me proud with his concentration and effort. I add the joy of watching him play, the pride of seeing him take his first base and the satisfaction of knowing this is the start of a long life of similar joys. I wrap this weekend up in a karmic ball and send it your way.
April sucked. Let's make May a time for honoring beginnings and renewal.
Humbly,
Jay
ON GEO. ALEC EFFINGER: Damn. Another falls. I don't have WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME anymore; I read it to death, gleaning something new in the story each time. Comments on Art, on history, on the sweet lies families tell ...
Effinger's name was always a billboard to me, stating that an anthology was worth buying--if it had one of his stories in it, the other material had to be good just to stand up. He had a madly comic style of writing that I would have dearly loved to have seen more of.
We've had enough deaths this past year already--someone tell her to LAY THE FUCK OFF ...
Incredibly old and crappy picture of me, HE, and Effinger at:
http://harlanellison.com/gallery/images/elliefme.jpg
Christ, what a month.
Faisal:
The problem with organic chemistry?
Way too much carbon. I mean, what's with the carbon fixation? Carbon sucks.
Harlan:
Suggestion noted. I have already ordered What Entropy Means to Me. If it gets to me in time, it will be the first book I read on my upcoming trip. I may wind up reading it while I'm visiting the Badlands in South Dakota. That's a perfect place for encoutering great literature.
Oops. Sorry.
RE: MY PAL, PIGLET:
You want to read Effinger? You want to be knocked out at what a Golden Child he was? Read his first novel, WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME. Start there, I urge you. Start there.
he
RE: MY PAL, PIGLET:
You want to read Effinger? You want to be knocked out at what a Golden Child he was? Read his first novel, WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME. Start there, I urge you. Start there.
he
Hey, whats wrong with organic chemistry!?!
FAQ
I checked a few links on George Alec Effinger and the first one gave me a smile.
http://www.dragoncon.org/people/effingg.html
**George was born in Cleveland, Ohio in 1947, and attended Yale University, where an organic chemistry course disabused him of the notion of becoming a doctor. **
Damned if the same thing didn't happen to me. Stinking organic chemistry. I swapped an unofficial pre-med track for psychology.
I admit I have not read any of his work. Since I always feel awkward commenting on the passing of people I didn't know for fear of being disrespectful, I will do the best thing I can and immediately read some of his writing.
Here's another link to a bibliography:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/George_Alec_Effinger.htm
Sir:
You are, if not the most annoying, the most delightful curmudgeon/prankster/imp/charmer I've ever met. I think part of the problem is in the respect I have for a very talented writer. Please understand, we both don't see ourselves, at least in the matter of literary skill or talent as being in the same league as you. After all, I don't have a website named for me, with folks more than happy to converse with me.
Any perceived affront from you towards us has been as quickly forgotten as it was issued. Yes, we might appear to be a bit high strung, but we do keep coming back. After all, you seem to attract some high quality people here, some of whom I would wager have had to go through this little rite of passage. You must admit, you do take a bit of getting used to, and of course, that is likely purely intentional.
Rick: Good to hear that things are turning up. I've heard it said that those who are good enough make their own luck. Maybe you're just proof postive of that.
Now, if all will excuse, I've purchased a copy of "The Seven Samurai", a film I've honestly never seen and one of Scotty's favorites.
Melissa
Rick,
My best friend lives in Atlanta and is a mensch of all mensches. I don't know what kind of info you need but I can ask him if he can help. Let me know.
Oh holy crap...Effinger, too? The same month as Damon Knight? Somebody needs to tell that dried-up bitch Atropos to take a damn break already!!!
I didn't read a lot of his stuff ("The Bird of Time" [sp?] years ago), but I was very impressed with the Budayeen stories. Arab-Muslim Cyberpunk -- such a simple idea to state, but so difficult to achieve...I waited years for the follow-up to "The Exile Kiss" -- now it'll never happen.
APRIL IS, INDEED, THE CRUELEST MONTH:
I have lost so many friends this month. Henry Slesar. Dudley Moore. Ray Lafferty. Milton Berle, whom I knew from our days on THE OSCAR at Paramount, and lunches at Oblath's and The Nickodell. Betty Shapian, the world's best publicist and a long-time pal, from way back in Doubleday days. Damon Knight.
-----------------------
I just got a call from his ex-wife, Barbara Hambly:
George Alec Effinger passed away in his sleep last night, in New Orleans. Released at last, rest in peace, Piglet.
It seems I am not as empty of tears as I thought.
Rick,
Glad to hear things are going well for you!
Kerry
Ah, I take a couple days off after a CRAPPY ASS Friday morning, and what happens?
- The gent who sent me that lovely e-mail apologizes for acting childlishly and promises to not err again.
- Heather returns, doesn't escalate, and deals maturely with what must have seemed like a bit of a pile-on
- I get a nice job offer from my company in Atlanta (so nice, in fact, it's going to force me to move back to Atlanta)
- Harlan shows up an entertains us all with his insouciant wit
What a nice bit of stuff to retun to!
Now, if any of you folks know someone in the environs of Atlanta, shoot me a line. I'm starting a search for a rental (probably a house) that can hold me and a 200 lb dog.
Toodles - Rick
Movie "critics" mostly know nothing EXCEPT movies. All too seldom do they know squat about anything else that provides context to the movies. Exhibit A: Ebert's willingness to let Lucas spout on about how he based Star Wars on Joseph Campbell. Had he consulted a recognized anthropologist, he would have discovered just how ill-thought Campbell's work is, and he would have discovered that Lucas's remarks weren't even faithful to that.
Many, many moons ago, before Gene's first operation, we used to watch Siskel & Ebert. Our first choice would be movies that Gene liked and Roger either didn't like or was indifferent to. Roger's opinion has since changed in some respects; I remember his lukewarm review of Apocalypse Now, of All That Jazz, of The Stunt Man (all from a single year), and his enthusiasm for Kramer v. Kramer. Gene's opinion was the other way. I think time and distance have validated Gene's views on 1979.
In any case, in a couple of hours this year's Nebula winners will be announced. Those of you with much sense of perspective will note that one award that is normally given is not being given at all. And therein lies a tale that, sad to say, is very much like the problems with Ebert and Talkinghead.
P.S. If you want to see just how incompetent the producers of that show really are, try surfing to ebertandroeper.com or ebertandroper.com (with no kids in the room). I found out about this when a couple of the other parents at my oldest son's school mentioned their shock when they tried to find Ebert's review of the Harry Potter movie last November...
MR. ELLISON
I understand you spent some time with the traveling carny. Your account in "Gopher in the Gilly" was quite interesting. If I understood correctly, you only spent a short time with them but you were able to paint a vivid picture of the seedy, lecherous undertones of the side show.
I'm curious if those were observations you made as boy, or something you came to understand later in life?
Also, is there an account of those small, dirty carnies out there that you'd recommend to get a better understanding of how they operated or collected stories of that time?
Thanks.
I'd like to toss in a recommendation for Zoë's story. She really is a gifted storyteller. Needs work, but _damn_ if it ain't mostly technical.
---Peter
CINDY! Got it. Will review tonight once the Missus has gone to bed.
ALEX JAY! Interesting twist on the werewolf legend. What do you recommend as source material for the legend?
I'm more interested in reading recommended texts on the folklore, history and variations of the werebeast. The modern interps I've read have a pseudomedical explanation like the one you debunk. Blood taint leads to genetic mutation or cellular disruption. That sort of thing.
I just had this image of a scene where a man has been pursued by a werewolf for hours through a deserted city. He finds himself on a rooftop still vigilant as the sun rises. He breathes a sigh and laughs. He turns and collapses against the eastern ledge and rests his eyes. He hears a growl, turns and sees the werebeastie standing on the western ledge, a wide full moon behind him still many degrees above the horizon.
Nothing complete, yet, but...
Harlan/Susan: Thanks a million for relieving the concerns and lunch is on me when you come to F-L-A!
And had I bothered reading all of the posts before jumping directly to Harlan's I would have noticed that Joseph's correction.
Somebody, quick, smack in me head
SCOTT & MEL: I know we've never tossed notes back and forth at each other on this board, but I gotta tell you guys -- yer a couple of pansies. Quit running to your room every time HARLAN makes with the playful jibes. Hell, first time he met me he shook my hand, smacked me on the head and called me a dickless wonder (or maybe that was his bastard son, Dan Simmons -- I get the two mixed up). But he's called me plenty of names since then, and I always fell honored. Don't you guys needle your buddies? Personally, when I like someone I can't refrain from teasing them from time to time. Harlan's that way. If you want him to be curt, to the point, and generally inattentive, then you'll have to get on his bad side. Until then, come back out of your rooms (and bring the ball with you okay) and toughen up a little.
-- DTS
Harlan:
A quick correction if I may. Roger and Roeper (or, as I like to call them, the critic and the fratboy) work for our competitors, the Chicago Sun-Times, place from which Mike Royko ran screaming like a banshee when it was acquired oh so many moons ago by Rupert Murdoch.
Ain't I the corporate lackey?
I suspect Harlan is right about Roeper being accepted by the network as the most banal of the choices to replace the sorely missed Gene Siskel. Even somebody as bland as Joyce Kulhawik (sp?) would havebeen a superior choice. I suppose it was too much to hope that Peter Bogdanovich was going to do anything more than the occasional cameo on that show.
I wouldn't characterize Roeper as an effete snob, though. He's too low-rent and anti-intellectual for that. This is the guy who made room on his Top Ten list for Shallow Hal and thought Not Another Teen Movie was hilarious. Roeper is a tyro and a simpleton. Gene Siskel's corpse would do a much better job. No disrespect intended to Mr. Siskel and his memory, of course.
Roger Ebert remains a favorite of mine but his work seems to have schizophrenic quality to it. His print reviews are insightful and his knowledge of film history is matched only by a handful of cineastes in the world. I've spent the last several months using Ebert's Great Movies' list as a guide for both viewing and study. Just in the last week, I've seen Last Year in Marienbad, The Last Laugh, Persona and Pandora's Box and have used Ebert's reviews as a launching point for further research on each film. I liked them all with Marienbad really striking a chord for me.
For all his scholarly work and genuine enthusiasm for the medium, Ebert still has this inexplicable fondness for selected Hollywood dreck. A thumbs up to Tomb Raider? Roger, Roger, don't embarass yourself!
I'd love to hear him talk more about his experiences working with Russ Meyer though. Meyer was no Kubrick but if you watch some of his movies, you'll see that the man was a damn fine film editor.
Harlan,
Er...while I agree on the stupid demographic reasons for bringing Roeper on board (nothing against Roeper, but there were many better choices), there's a few errors in your conclusions. Buena Vista is a division of the asinine ABC/Disney conglomerate. Ebert and Roeper both write for the Sun-Times, a division of the Canadian-based Hollinger corporation, which also owns the Jerusalem Post, the Daily Telegraph and a bunch of other papers whose editorial pages have jumped to the right of George Ryan. (Incidentally, in verifying the spelling of Hollinger, I noted that they own an obscene amount of local newspapers in the Chicago area. Depressing as hell, considering how nutty their editorials have become.) Just noting. Really, the Tribune Company has nothig to do with Ebert and Roeper these days.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Not to toot my own horn, but I was the one raving about "Ginger Snaps" a few months ago (unless there was someone even earlier whom I am forgetting). Fabulously oddball movie.
SCOTTY, MEL:
The trouble with gentiles is that they let us yids whip guilt on them till they fall to their knees.
I was nuhdzing you.
It was in fun.
Of COURSE the previous brouhaha was put to rest.
Does that mean I cannot annoy the shit out of you?
Does that mean I'm forbidden snapping at you heels?
Does that mean I have to be as serious as you two?
(Listen, Scott, YOU got all warped out of shape when I called you a termite, with tongue in cheek. Who the hell was to know you'd get pissed? If I'd known, I wouldn't've joshed with you. I no more meant you were a "termite" than I would that you're Heinrich Himmler's illegitimate transsexual daughter!)
Don't be silly, Melissa.
You are not to take ANY of that riff as serious.
It is my JOB to discomfit, to harangue, to bark and howl.
If I can't insult and debase you, then what good is our being friends?
And I do wish the two of you (if in fact there ARE two of you, and not just S or M with an Ed Gein Syndrome, yes mother I'm coming) would LIGHTEN the ---- up. See, you've got me so badly unstrung that I cannot even use the King's English as the Good Lord intended without Bowdlerizing for fear I'll ---- you off.
I mean, can't you TELL this is all in jest? Have I ONCE mentioned yo mama?
You have distraught me with this advisement.
Please, PLEASE, tell me all is forgiven! I shall know no surcease till your forbearance is visited 'pon me. PLEASE end my travail! Plz.
I was clowning. Ridi. Pagliacci. Ridi.
Haplessly, supine, and remorseful,
Yo Mama.
ON WEREWOLVES, HAVING BEEN ONE:
You want a really TERRIFIC contemporary werewolf movie, go rent the Canadian low-budget but nonetheless knockout film GINGER SNAPS. One of our Canuck Webderlanders dropped a mention some months ago, so on the strength of that alone, we went out and rented it, Susan and I; and it was so good I bought one for my library. GINGER SNAPS.
And if you want a tasty bite of lycanthropy every week, you mizzuble buncha whiners, why aren't you watching Lou Diamond Philips starring in WOLF LAKE on UPN? It is smart, it is cool, it is intriguing. The Missuz and I wouldn't mizz it.
Howling for attention, I remain, yr. lap-dog, Howlan
Nothing like a weekend with Mel and the kids to put both heart and hale back in an aging, decrepid soul...
Mr. Ellison: Completely understood, and I'm remarkably envious. I'll close the question for now, but I would be remiss (to hell with understatement; I would be an incredible idiot) if I didn't say "Should you change your mind, let me know..."
Of course, that would mean standing in line, holding a ticket and hearing "Now serving 3.578 to the tenth power."
Now, to a comment of yours, one that seems to have Mel a mite confused.
"Particularly where Melissa is concerned. She sees me as Shylock already. But, listen, I don't take it to heart. I'm a poor Jew from Ohio, heir to 4000 years persecution. Why should your wife's remarks bother me?"
She was under the impression that, after the small misunderstanding, the matter was closed with no harm to either party. Shylock? Not hardly. She's not read that much of your work, but what she has read she's quite enjoyed. Your appearance on "Conspiracy Zone" was the first time she'd ever seen you in action and she not only found you charming, intelligent and funny, she thought you quite handsome (a small twinge of jealous, but I'm all better now). Hell, over the termite comment, she defended you to me fer Chrissakes!
She's read this, and is a bit hurt. Not angry, but thinking she's been misread somewhere. She doesn't want to know what comment triggered this feeling on your part, but she'd like you to know that she sees you as a decent, upstanding person trying to get along the best way you know. She respects you more than I do for (insert name of relevant deity or daemon here)'s sake.
Personally, I think we should just erase the board and start again.
Bermanator: Naming gerbils? My thought is to save up your money and buy a real pet, something along the lines of a cross between an Irish Wolfhound and a Greyhound Bus. Then you can name him Satan and teach him to eat little swastika drawing punks in one bite...or perhpas a train them in career of knocking over liquor stores to supplement your income.
Bag-O-Scott reminds you that gerbils, rabbits, mice, etc. are nothing more than little furry shit factories...
ON FILM CRITICS, HAVING BEEN ONE:
After James Agee, who should be the high-water mark for all of you, there were only a handful, led by Pauline Kael, who died recently. Most of them are simply fools. A few of them are anti-art, anti-movies, anti-entertainment.
Nonetheless, I adored Gene Siskel, and miss him terribly. With Gene, who was intelligent, kind, and a gentleman, to balance him, to keep him operating at a stratospheric level of craft, Roger was superlative. I've known Roger for thirty years (though trying to contact him in the last decade has been like trying to speak to the gatekeeper at Valhalla) and I've always thought he was doing decent work. Honest, informed, responsible.
But...
Disabuse yourself of the idea that ROGER brought Roeper in. Roeper was the most acceptable choice among all the tryouts-on-air ABC threw at him... most acceptable to the boneheaded venality of network "teeniebopper demographic" thinking. ABC wanted to "skew younger" and so, since the Chicago Tribune Syndicate owns the show, and Ebert works for the Trib, and Roeper works for the Trib...
Ta-DAH!
You get a parvenu. An officious, self-serving, posturing, argumentatively bullheaded and bullying punk. Look up "effete snob" in the OED, and you'll see Roeper's cartoony phizz staring back at you. I have no idea whether Roger LIKES the liaison as it now stands, but he's going for it, so he has lost all coin with me.
Bottom line?
For the first time since Siskel and Ebert came on PBS, decades ago, we no longer watch the show. It is out of touch, out of steam, and out beyond the fringe. My home is closed to them.
Roger is welcome to Roeper. But I shan't waste another half hour on them.
Stolidly, Harlan
ROB: True, true...maybe I'm just letting Jack's berserk performance from THE SHINING fog up my judgement. Keep in mind, though, that I had seen WOLF shortly after BATMAN, and the amazing restraint Nicholson is putting himself through as a human AND as a wolfman is startling, compared to his portrayal of the Harlequin of Hate. I'm still waiting for Jack to surpass his performance from FIVE EASY PIECES. Great shtuff.
ROEPER/PLANET OF THE APES DEBACLE: I don't know much about Mr. Roeper, but I am repelled by his 'better than the original' take. The minute you start comparing a remake to the original instead of judging it on it's own merits first is ultimately pointless and redundant. (Unless the remake happens to be THE BLOB or PSYCHO or ROLLERBALL or...)
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
HOO-HAW!
I bow to the Greater.
Berman has finally hit the most brilliant choice for the naming of the Brothers Gerbil:
"Shatner" and "Toupee" is cosmically inspired. No competition. You win Berman!
I bow to the Greater.
SCOTT & MELISSA:
Your assumption that the answer was "no" (see your own post for referrent) is both correct and incorrect.
We, in fact, have ENDLESS rare items of my work here in the vast subterranean Wonderland vaults...
The MEFISTO IN ONYX limited edition Death Cell hand-made steel box with French crushed-velvet lining, individually keyed, signed and numbered, created by Steve Kirk (who was head man at Disney's Imagineering for years). I haven't seen one offered in a few years, but the last time one popped up, it was (I think) in the stultifying ascendancy of $3-4000.
The STALKING THE NIGHTMARE carved wooden box limited edition, with the demon proffering the lock to be opened. Done in buckram leather, gold-edged, and on and on. Five grand. Considered by such antiquarian booksellers as Barry Levin as the single most beautiful limited ever published in the genre.
1st Edition Doubleday 1967 DANGEROUS VISIONS, mint condition with unsullied and unfaded dust jacket.
And on and on and on.
So, the answer is YES, we got 'em.
But the answer to selling them is NO. Because we need money, yet I cannot bring myself to sell stuff like this for the prices I know they'll bring, from strangers and dealers, to you guys. You may not be my dearest closest bosomest friends in the world, but you ARE my friends and neighbors, and I would have to bleed you to let go of these hot items...and I just cannot do it. As many of you know, from time to time I'll just send something you need, to one or another of you, as the spirit moves me. But I don't charge; and so I've put these treasures off-limits till we do the BIG HUMUNGOUS AUCTION. Yet do not fear: as I promised, before we go public with this stuff, it'll be offered to members of HERC first, in a special mailing. But at the moment--DO NOT NUHDGE ME WITH QUERIES ABOUT THE AUCTION--everything is in abeyance till I'm over my deadlines and have a spare moment.
If there's something you see on e-bay or somewhere, Scott, and it intrigues you, ask me if I've got an extra copy; let me know what it's selling for on the web; and perhaps I can do you some good. But...this is on a case by case basis.
Particularly where Melissa is concerned. She sees me as Shylock already. But, listen, I don't take it to heart. I'm a poor Jew from Ohio, heir to 4000 years persecution. Why should your wife's remarks bother me? Cut me, do I not bleed? Hurt me, do I not cry? Force me to listen to 'N Sync, does not my brain turn to barnyard mulch?
Humbly, yr. pal, Harlan
Good afternoon, all -
Well there's a link for any bored enough and curious enough to want to read my "short" story. It's not really that short, but oh well.
You know, I've never been a huge fan of movie critics myself. Granted, I don't know oodles about many of them, but I do know my taste is usually directly opposite most of the critics.
Quiet day - it's _still_ snowing, for the love- I'm trying with them weather gods but they ain't listenin'!
--Dotty,
--Zoë Rose
CHARLIE IN ST. PETE:
I am conveying for Susan. She says 2-2&1/2 months for return of the green card is standard these days. And up to a year and a few months for copyright registrations to be returned. Minimum. Everything is going as it's supposed to; do not kvetch; do not fret; do not worry.
We used to get our copyright registrations back pretty fast before 9/ll. But, as with many government aeries in D.C., everything went straight up in the air, was Kansas twistered, and came down in a snowstorm of epic proportions. We've had copyright reg paperwork in their hands for eight/nine months now; and it's only starting to triculate with molasses slowness.
Take heart. You'll see your new paperwork before we see ours, Bunky. They're taking the fresh stuff first, and catching up with poor schlubs like us in the stray open minutes.
The bill for all this assistance is in the mail.
Yr. pal, H(arlan). R. Block
MOVIE CRITICS:
To address the idea of movie critics in general, I think they can provide a very valuable role in the artistic and analytical process. Like all fields of endeavor, there's a big difference between the good critics and the bad ones. And only a few of themcan really be called good.
Giving a movie a star rating or a thumbs up/thumbs down is pretty useless. But a critic can contribute to the artistic process. Not that he is an artist, hemost assuredly is not, but he can still help analyze and promote good art.
I'm currently enjoying theheck out of the series of little, I dunno what you call the, chapbooks maybe, from the British Film Institute each on various films. I thought the one about Night of the Hunter was very good and I am currently enjoying the one about Last Year in Marienbad.
I don't know if Roeper is a dumb guy - I know he's a dumb critic. I'm notjust basing that on Planet of the Apes but on having watched him for the last couple years. I don't know why Ebert brought him on. Maybe to represent the "common man" but it's not like Ebert doesn't like a lot of schlock too. It's just Roeper's taste (thumbs up /thumbs down), it's the asinine comments he makes.
He trashed Lord of the Rings because it's "too long." He ripped Dancer in the Dark because it "got on his nerves" and had an unrealistic plot. Ebert's print review directly repudiated this saying that it was fine and well to like or not like Dancer in the Dark but criticizing the realism of the plot was not valid. The film made a stylistic choice of extreme melodrama over realism. Roeper likewise tore apart Training Day because it "wasn't realistic." Idiot idiot idiot.
Yes, Rob, Roeper praised Planet of the Apes. He actually started off his reviewby proudly proclaiming it's "better than the original."
I already had a low opinion of him at that point. When he had the nerve to say that, I think I fainted.
Chris,
You're kidding...you're KIDDING...right? RIGHT?
You're not. You're NOT?
Yeah, don't gimme that shit. You're kidding.
Roeper actually gave the PLANET OF THE APES remake a thumb skyward?
I have an interview with Kubrick sitting on my desk even as we post. A quote from him: "Explaining works of art contributes nothing but a superficial 'cultural' value which has no value except for critics and teachers who have to earn a living."
Roeper must be getting minimum wage.
I dismiss critics nowadays but some more outright and justifiably than others. Roeper's thumb is a reminder why.
Chris L, doesn't mean that Roeper is a dumb guy. Ebert must trust him for valid reasons. The fatboy knows his movie people.
Cindy,
Go see Panic Room. I think it's terrible, the worst movie of the year so far, but some people like it. But I think there are a lot of bad movies still worth seeing.
As for the thumbs up biz, Ebert thumbs up is encouraging. A Roeper thumbs up is always a warning sign. This is the man who raved over the brilliance of the remake of Planet of the Apes and told Ebert he would wind up feeling embarassed to have given it a thums down.
Brian, yes and yes.
To Frank Church, re Parecon. For the benefit of Webderlanders, "Parecon" is an economic system proposed by Michael Albert of _Z_ magazine. I haven't look at it in enough detail to make much of an opinion about it, I'm afraid.
I am wondering about Frank's question, as to whether I think it's a "valid" system or not. By what do you mean "valid?" Do I think it could work if implemented? Do I think it's even _likely_ to be implemented? Do I see an, a nervous animal is a dangerous animal.
I really hope this is clearing everything up for you. I mean, all that Lon Chaney and Maria Ouspenskaya crap really muddies the waters. "Yooooouu cann-not essscape the cooo-urse!" I mean, come _on_. Total bull.
Actually, "werewolf" and "wolfman" are misnomers when you think about it. True wolves are dirty little bastards, actually. Sure, they're not carrion eaters, but I'm convinced that they would be, if they didn't enjoy hounding animals to death so much.
Also, they tend to bugger anything that moves ... okay, so maybe that has its merits sometimes, but really now! Once I saw a wolf trying to mount a _squirrel_--and then, after he decided he was through, he _ate_ the poor little bastard!
That's one reason I don't like the name "werewolf"; another's that we don't change into _wolves_ per se--the closest I can come to describing what we Callen become is, well, some sort of bestial humanity; stuck between man and animal and not really either of them. The third reason I hate any "wolf" comparisons is that wolves tend to travel in packs (kind of like schoolyard bullies, come to think). Now, I'm not sure if I speak for the rest of the Callen, but myself? I don't want to see anyone else who sprouts fur and grows claws (unless she's both willing and in heat) as long as I live, and I sure as hell don't want _them_ to see _me_."
There; it's over now ... you can come out ...
DAMNIT! Someone stole my tools. Even the chair I made to replace the collapsed chair collapsed! Saturday mornings require Jay to use the PREVIEW button from now on.
Anyone else notice how ridiculous Star Wars character names are becoming? Just another pointless observation to distract you from my poor typing. :)
Ouch. Sorry for the awkward construction. I guess the metaphorocal chair I made this morning fell apart.
Still love that analogy, Rich.
Rick Wynott - Helluva Board, Helluva Tribute. The schmoe who emailed you probably can't program a VCR much less a web page of this design. As Lynn said, it has influenced me and given me joy in the brief time I've have it bookmarked. Have you heard of the Pyxis Corporation? They are a division of Cardinal Health. It's health care=related so jobs won't vanish and they have computer-specialist and support positions around the country. If you're still looking, check them out. They've been great to two friends of mine and I might have joined them except for this tendency of mine to not like math...or science...or sick people.
CINDY - DAH'LINK
I'd enjoy reading your pages if you would like to send them my way. Same email as above, but hotmail.com
An interesting question for folklorists (florists with extra "olk"!)
Driving my fiance to work this morning early in the morning hours we noticed the big full (or just slightly waning) moon still hanging in the sky about 20 degrees over the western horizon. This prompted the question:
According to folklore, do lycanthropes remain in animal form during a full moon even AFTER the break of day, or is the curse broken by dawn?
Of course I don't ask for practical purposes...even though the hairy man with the hangover who crossed in front of us on the Harvey Taylor Bridge this morning looked quite the part.
OK, I can't take it anymore.
Hamster's
Sir Boris (the finest swordsman in the World)and
Sir Morris (not the finest swordsman in the World, but the most enthusiastic)
They actually have a pet hamster called Sir Dorris, and a dog, Sir Horace.
Kerry
THELMA & LOUISE??
Gerbils (that's all my scotch-soaked brain can handle this early on a Saturday AM):
Lucy and Ethel?
Betty and Wilma?
PRUDENCE???
Gudanov and Badanov? Boris and Natasha? Sporty and Scary Spice?
Gertrude and Prudence?
Damnit. More misspellings. Gotta use that other neat feature, "PREVIEW".
I'm a victim of soicumstance! I was framed, I tell ya!
Chuck
Rick,
When I first popped in here, it was to complement your work here, especiall the scalable number of posts I can call up when I come in to the bulletin board. Then, I read your post about that rude individual who came back with the "thanx for nothing" e-mail. What the hell does he know? Does this member of the booboisie run a website? He probably couldn't.
I think you're doing a fine job here, adding features I haven't seen on ANY bulletin board, including and especially the scalability feature. (I like that word scalability. I promise not to overuse it like Zippy the Pinhead) Keep on doing what you're doing, which is usually above the call of duty or whatever calls on the WWW. And what a fine advocate you have in HE. Just remember most of the radom fucks that come onto your website are not like the terrible tempere Mr. Bang.
Oh, and I asked if my company needed any IT people. Unfortunately, they don't. What the hell, it's outside the area you wanted look in, and the pay would probably suck.
I just became an official member of the HERC. Sent in my membership today. Too much cool stuff in there to pass up. Now I need to look into Lynn's site.
Chuck
Yes, bad Todd. The roastfully boastfully Todd, who roasts and boasts until the milquetoasts roast in the post. Whenever I think of Todd, I think of...well, exchanges with Frank which leave me with the distinct impression that the two of them would probably get along quite well at a table together, in between tearing ideological strips off each other.
Yes, bad Todd. Bad bad bad bad Todd.
He is bad.
Heh.
Jon
Bermanator: My father, who taught high school English from 1960-1995, and who did both public and high school at a rural one-room school house, gets on my ass whenever I opine that kids are different. His comments frost me off, but they also act as a necessary rejoinder.
His contention (and he still coaches grade nines and tens in football now) is that kids aren't any different at all, except that they may be _less_ prone to violence in total as a kneejerk reaction or as a social norm, at least within the groups he deals with -- namely, kids from a small town of about 14,000. And many of the stories he's told -- about life in a rural area in the late 1930s and early 1940s, about what was tolerated as schoolyard behaviour, all in particulars and not in the generals that I'm giving here because it's late and my brain's fused -- at the very least give me pause before thinking that kids are 'worse.' We've got some high-profile bullying trials and investigations going on in Canada right now. I do think, as someone who was tormented by peers for being fat in public school, that this focus indicates a paying-of-attention to things that weren't paid attention to much before except by 'outsider' writers -- like Orwell, like Ellison -- in their accounts and stories of 'acceptable (unacceptable) school behaviour.'
The murders in Germany really suck.
Jon
First off, P.A. something about your post gave me chills. The real world is invading the school. Unfortunately, (and no, I know it's not that simple) that puts some of us (literally) in the line of fire.
But you aren't reaching them all?
I beg to differ.
I worked at the hub of a plethora of kids this year, working as the cashier. Offering comments, jokes and compliments to a cross-section of kidkind. There are a lot of them out there. It's hard know what they are thinking. But ya know something? (and I won't pull the spotlight on my own anecdote to prove the point) you affect ALL OF THEM...
Trust me on this one. It may not surface. (Damn, I was only a cashier. I was AMAZED at the casual coments I got later on about the simple things I proffered. It kinda floored me.) You may not see it happen in your presence. But you are as a stone cast in a clear pond.
You CAN be seen. You'd be amazed. _I_ was.
Keep up the fight. Someone is winning. Believe me.
Heather
Todd, get a life.
I have a pretty good idea what some of the people here I am dealing with are about. I grew up with a supportive father who influenced me greatly and who taught me a few things about picking my battles. I also have two brothers--intelligent folk, actually. (And come to think of it, despite a strong sibling rivalry with my older brother, he NEVER called me a bitch. Go figure.) I live in the real world. With more shades than just black and white. There are a few men (and women) there. Some of them do things I can't explain and try not to worry about. Life is too short.
If you feel the need to nitpick, to fill your roast/boast quota, be my guest. I've seen you do it enough with others and I have no qualm with you or anyone else here, but I WILL speak my mind from time to time. A mind? Yes, I have one. A little different from yours, Thank Christ, but hey, that's what makes the world go round.
So flip me the bird, turn me into some caricatured female figure you find it easier to snot at, or pass my posts at your leisure. It's a free country. If all you look for in exchanges with people are things to get mad as a hatter about, enjoy yourself. I'm RIGHT here.
I've dealt with programmers. There are a number of them here. My observations have a basis in reality. If that's a problem for you, tough, ignore me. It's an easy to do.
Cast me as a villain? Take a hike. Woman as bitch? Give me a fucking break. Contrary opinion? Live with it. Keep the gender out of it.
Oh my, this IS fun!
TODD!
Excellent!
I am grateful for the time that you spend on my behalf.
Your wife will probably be delighted with your efforts. Good women who marry manly men don't begrudge them their masculine tendencies but admire them.
Cindy
Aside from the exciting gerbil acquisition/naming (Heather: no initials for my girls-- they get GOOD names), I have to say... I'm pretty freaked out by the school shooting in Germany. 17 people killed and 14 of them were teachers. All I could think was, that could be me, in some horror nightmare. I wish I could be eloquent about this, but all I can think of is...are kids really this fucking unhappy in school? Have things changed so much since I was a kid? Sure, I fantasized about my high school going up in flames, but to DO it, and on such a scale?
I try to be a teacher who gives a damn, who loves the individuals more than the rules, more than the books, more than the status quo. And I think I'm succeeding a lot of the time... tonight I chaperoned Battle of the Bands. A kid, whose brother I had last year, told me his brother had come to the show that night specifically to see me because I was his favorite teacher ever, K-12. (I wound up missing the kid; he was going to sing but he left early because they wouldn't let him say THE EFF WORD).
I felt faint... I reached that weird, tough kid. I felt so honored, like a success, but... I'm babbling...all that doesn't matter if one kid is alienated and miserable and crazy enough to put a handgun in my face and pull the trigger.
And I'm not going to kid myself. I don't reach them all.
Damn.
Bermanator
HEATHER!!!!!!!
In AWE?
I am SO grateful for that comment! You are so kind. Are you finished with it? The form that you got it in was so bad I apologize. Faisal's suggestion makes all the difference in the world. I sent you the improved one from a final draft translation this evening. I think it will help your reading experience.
Again, your words encourage me and give me such confidence!
Now where did you want me to send your payment for the comment?
:)
Cindy
Cindiana,
Got it, thanks. I promise a complete reading and honest comments. Give me a few days, though. Though I am officially unemployed for the first time since 1980, I do have a lot of work ahead of me next week preparing my home for sale later this summer. Yup, as a manly man, I will be swimming in paint and dust and God knows what else (and pissing off the wife everytime she comes home from work to see what mess I've gotten myself into).
But I will get to it, fer sure! Thanks!
-TODD
BERMANATOR AND TODD!
The script is probably there as we speak! Ain't technology grand?
I can't thank you enough for helping out.
I'm beholden. MOST beholden.
Y'all are fine as frog hair.
:)
Cindy
Zoe...Hope school is going well. Books in the mail. Feels GOOOOD, don't it? Congratulations on your prized piece. It doesn't matter how many entries there were--you won a prize! Enjoy it! And let the gerbil be a Zoe. Zoe Berman. What's the middle name? Will we get yet ANOTHER P.A.-like initial here?
Peter..Why the English department? You work at a school or something? Congratulations, as well.
I would be glad to see either piece from either or you. Or anything else (Peter.)
Chris...You go, girl! Good for you to make a decision. Get some sun while you are out there. Hit the beach and be a manly man. Maybe you'll meet a babe or two.
Cindy...(My screenplay experience notwithstanding but...) I am in awe. As I mentioned in private post, your piece seems to convey a real, emotion-filled, solidly written story with nifty little characters. Not a word out of place. The pace is wonderful. I LOVE the catwoman. (Hmm..you should do a comic of this for KICK. Anybody listening?) Good luck at the contest.
Congratulations to you others for your current triumphs and heroics. Seems the full moon is having a positive effect this week. This is Good.
Rick...Need help, or a buttinsky ear, let me know, as always.
Heather Anne
Heather, I rarely address any of your notes, as I really am able to get past the first few lines. But I read your last post, and I must ask: Are you purposely acting like an asshole to rile up the intelligent people here? Do you really think these people are 'programming' nerds (how many of you guys and gals are programmers besides Rick? Me, I don't program, I boss around programmers...or used to) who have no better things to do in life than crack jokes.
A) Jokes are fun. Cracking jokes brings joy to the world, unless your jokes suck.
B) The people here are fun.
C) You are becoming a fucking stick in the mud.
I'm sure your post, in which you refuse admit your complicity in placing the match to gasoline by asking for comments on that piece of shit writing exercise, will elicit quite the number of pissed of responses.
In advance....I agree with them all. You know why? Because these programming losers who crack jokes at other's expenses are far better people than you are proving to be.
I used to think you were an eccentric rambler. I now think you are a bit of a bitch.
Sorry.
-TODD
Peter, Cindy, Zoe (if you want): E-mail above. Send stuff.
Gerbils: I had to get girl gerbils. They didn't have a boy one in black. So I have a black girl and a grey girl. Boy, the woman behind the counter thought I was nuts-- she actually tried to talk me out of getting them. I guess it's not too often that full grown adults come in asking for gerbils. Hmmm. Wonder what her fevered imaginings conjured (Richard Gere? Gezundheit.)
Your suggestions are all quite compelling. I honestly cannot decide. I'm a Libra, I'm indecisive by nature. I think I might go with Death and Taxes. That cracked me up...The Gerbils of Inevitability.
Bermanator
Dearest Harlan
Stay out of it. I don't waste time pouting at people with nothing better to do but point fingers and snicker. I made my point; more than I usually bother to do with this crowd, as I'm not as anal as some of you. Heh.
If you missed the point of my original post, so be it. Don't feed me my thoughts on this matter. Your points posed in prose may be true--as you sometimes tend to do when pressing a point of debate (with the essence of the original exchange getting lost in the reply)--but they are beside the point. I thanked the specific parties for their specific replies. I spoke my mind to the willy nillies who needed a joke break from their programming.
Dig?
I could have pulled up this person for your perusal and comments, as I've done with a few others in the past, while I was surfing. (Per Jay's comments, I should have shown you a piece of prose that DIDN'T comment on said person being PUBLISHED; as many of you chewed a little too long on THAT point versus a civil discussion the kid's prose.) I came across this chap last year. I read a number of his pieces (which is more than I can say for some of you.) I went back to visit the site recently and saw what I showed you, casually asking for pros and cons on his abilities. Even Hemingway preferred specific feedback from Gertrude Stein when he showed her a piece. Saying "Bad boy" or "Good boy" served him little purpose. (And I personally can't imagine her making jokes as his expense as many of you lazy ones did.) And that's the extent of my involvement with this Moonlighter chap.
I am here to attempt intelligent exchange. If that's too tall an order for any of you, the Cartoon Channel is over there, by your Pee Wee Herman doll.
Heather
Cindiana, I would enjoy taking a look at your screenplay. Is this the one that uses my The Sister Who Came From The Basement story? Regardless, still interested!
-TODD
OKAY, Y'ALL!
BERN,
FINDER
ZOE
LYNN
HEATHER
DTS
BARNEY
AND
DENNIS,
I HAVE SENT YOU ALL THE SCREENPLAY. If it doesn't come through holler at me please. In the meantime anybody else want to read it- I'd be most beholden.
I am going to submit it to a film festival and this is the best way for me to see what needs to be tweaked or pruned.
Faisal, you are THE MAN! I took your advice and managed to get it from Final Draft into a text format. It still off centers a little bit of the dialogue.. I'm sure that's part of the design so people will be compelled to buy the product.
Meantime you saved me on this.. thanks so much. AND if you change your mind and want to read it I WOULD BE EVEN MORE IN YOUR DEBT.
Shameless ain't I?
:)
You are all the best people.
Rick, I would be happy to kick in for the keg so to speak. I can send a little for the cause. What you do is such a boon to ALL OF US. I get more of a kick out of your website than I do out of most of the movies that come through my little "burg" as my mother calls it as in " I can't grasp how you can stand to LIVE in this little burg."
Anyway you have only to email me with your address and I'll send you what I can.
Thanks for all you do and piss on that bastard that was rude to you. I think we should do a villiagers from Frankenstein number on him.
All of y'all's friend,
Cindy
Well. Lots of congratulations have to wing their way out here.
ZOË AND PETER AT THE CLAIR DE LUNE: Good on you both. Keep writing, keep winning, keep it up.
(An aside: Peter, I've seen you express yourself here and elsewhere for some time, and I have to say that while proud, I am wholly unsurprised. [Sorry, Zoë; while a great addition to the board here, I just haven't read you as much--I look forward to, however ...])
CHRIS: Hey--I know you've been pursuing film school for some time. Good to see you're going ahead with it--an maybe the Fluffya Webderlanders can give you a sendoff ...
PETER: The "No writing on webpages" is a rule of mine, as well. If they pay me, fine. If not, it has to be something extraordinary (the only ones I can think of are a review of a friend's musical group, which they now use in their onstage intros and in their press releases, and an article on an antiwar site in reply to an article by one of my best friends--oddly, this is the article that got my byline on the same page as Chomsky and other luminaries).
NAME THE GERBILS: Sex and Violence. Bogie and Bacall. Hornet and Kato. Sacco and Vanzetti. Aubrey and Maturin. Tits and Ass. Shatner and Toupee. Channon and Yelena. Buck and Bubbles. Edmund and Tenzing. Kavalier and Clay. Bailey and Olivaw. Passion and Warfare. War and Peace. Stanley and Livingstone. Leopold and Loeb. Simon and Garfunkel. Simon and Kirby. Simon and Schuster. Simon and Simon. (I got a million of 'em ...)
RICK: I don't like Zoë's idea of a mass flame at all, but I do believe that the person who e-mailed you has forfeited any rights to polite conversation--or, for that matter, ANY conversation. Brush him off like a grabby ex (and delight in the Ellisonian emasculation to follow).
JUSTIN: Regarding the "Show, don't Tell"--gimme some time; I'll have a good explanation for you later tonight.
DAVID: *I* wish that Fantagraphics would resume its POGO collections!
BRIAN: You need me, I've got your back. I'm free on weekends for bullybashing.
RICK: I almost forgot--though you may be loath to join The Great Satan, the IRS is ALWAYS hungry for IT pros and other techies, and the starting pay is actually not bad.
ALEX K.: No matter what Harlan says, there is no finer aim for Art--ANY Art--than between the legs of one's desire.
(and I recommend MIND FIELDS)
Quick correction, the HE books were the ESSENTIAL, and SLIPPAGE, not SHATTERDAY...
--Zoë Rose
Hey all-
I know I'm still new-ish here, but thought you'd appreciate how greatful I am to a certain someone I met here, who recently sent me a treasure-chest of literature. This afternoon there appeared a box on my doorstep, taking me a minute to lug into the house because of its weight. Digging inside I found books, books, boks! Harlan Ellison ("Essential Ellison" and "Shatterday"), Dan Simmons (too many to list), Alice Blanchard, Lucius Shepard, Nevada Barr, Stephen King, Carol O'Connell, and a couple others.
Not even out of college and I've got a little library started! If it hadn't been for this board and the quick and astute responses (friendly... and not, too, sometimes, but can be just as fun), I would never have stuck around and met such a great bunch.
Thanks to one and all for making my "stay" here superb. Y'all rock.
-Dotted,
-Zoë Rose
Xanadu~ ::LOL:: Or from Good Omens, The Other Four Bikers of the Apocalypse: Grievious Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Really Cool People, and Things Not Working Properly Even After You've Given Them A Good Thumping (secretly called No Alcohol Lager).
L.
If you have no objections, Peter - I'd love to see how you've progressed since the days of shaz... ^Email above^
More suggestions for the Two Gerbils of the Apocalypse:
Fire and Brimstone
Crash and Burn
Fear and Loathing (in Binghamton)
Mashed, Potatoes
Odd and Even
Burp and Fart
Which thoughts led me to - The Four Horsemen of the Moderately Bad Day: Hunger, Discomfort, Unconsciousness and Slap Fight.
They just posted the winners list for that competition, and I placed (where I placed, I don't know, because they haven't actually said which winner got which place) in the short story comp, 2000+ words with my story O'RYAN'S BELT.
P.A.Berman: If you still want to read it, let me know your email addy and I'll shoot it off to you.
Goodness I'm tired.
---Peter
Alex-
Okay, how about "Sleepless Nights..." for non-fiction and "Mind Fields" for fiction? Come to think of it, "Sleepless Nights..." was the first HE book I gave to my son.
Holmes and Watson
Rick:
Christ almighty, as one who puts up with a endless parade of those who both feel the need to be able to tell me precisely how it is I'm screwing up at either managing the rink or calling a game, and yet never seem to be able to be available to take a turn at doing it themselves, you have my sympathies. A pity I don't have a means to get to the individual. Still have a few skills learned on the wrong side of the tracks and during my purgatory within the CAF that would come in mighty handy...
Michael: Drew Mel's attention to your post; our favorites for illness are ginger ale, dry toast, and peppermint ice cream. Don't know why, but it really seems to settle the stomach. Hope Alia's both feeling better soonest, and her new job is working out.
Mr. Ellison: Mel had asked if you'd had any other books or items for sale other than those listed. We take silence as inferring the word No. Not a problem, but should something of interest come up, please let us know.
Well, out of here. Taking the kids to their grandparents, then out on the town for a much needed night out. Don't wait up, kiddies; we be goin' long on this one.
Hehehehehehehehe, and a nice little leer...
A lecherous Bag-O-Scott
Zoe: <-- see the sideways dots? Congratulations on your contest win -- you rock, baby.
-- DTS
Alia has a nasty stomach bug today. I'm spending my day running Sprite and crackers to the bedroom, and wasting time on the Internet. Thus:
Alex, as regards your story...THAT'S why I suggested Harlan's work to Justin!!!
You see, Justin? It works! Ask Alex! Ask Harlan!
Wups, gotta go get the Maalox....
Michael
Castor and Pollux
Another few gerbil monikers, sparked by Mr. Ellison's mention of Gog and Magog:
Hugin and Munin
Phobos and Deimos
Oberon and Miranda
Rick, sorry to read of your hassles with a netnerd, but unsurprised. I've been doing this stuff even longer than thou, I'd wager. There are nations of idiots who assume that visiting a webpage is like visiting a store, and they demand instant service. Sounds like Harlan's up for stomping the guy, which might be fun. Can we all watch? I can always use the entertainment.
To those who suggested "The Essential Ellison" for my old college buddy's son: Um, thanks, but I think I'd like to get him something less terrifying. I'm remembering how daunting I found the original "Dangerous Visions" when I was 16. It was a lot shorter than "The Essential Ellison," and I read compulsively. It still made me gulp. Think I'll go with "Dreams with Sharp Teeth" (Susan, the order will be coming in the mail).
Which brings back a fond memory of the late sixties. I used to get girls hooked on Harlan's writing and then I'd get him to sign copies at conventions. Finally, at one convention, Harlan looked at the latest stack and said, "Krislov, you gotta quit using my stuff to get laid."
--alex
Rick,
May I say right off the bat, thank you. I know it isn't said often enough, but I want to thank you for the YEARS of dedication you've put into this website. You've done a great job and everybody here is (or damn well SHOULD BE) grateful for the blood, sweat, toil, and tears you've shed to make this a neighborhood community that spans the planet.
Secondly, the ass who made those comments isn't worth a second thought. You are better than that cretin and I hope that once the anger in you subsides you'll feel a little pity for that jerk and a great deal of pity for those around him.
Best,
Shane
Todd,
A) You're a mensch as well, despite being a dirty Yankees fan.
B) That's "First Place White Sox," thankyouverymuch.
Regards,
Joseph
Rick, please, Mother of God, PLEASE get Harlan in touch with that rat bastard and his 'quick witted' snottiness. People like that need to have their asses reamed by the nearest telephone pole (a real splintery one)!
Rick is cool, gang! I had a lost-mail matter to ask Harlan and Susan about a month ago, and I asked Rick if he could bring it up in any future conversations. He didn't have to.....he's not a manager of some internet company here, he's just a guy who gives us a fun place to converse. But he did, and got me an answer right away. He's a mensch, but I'm sure everyone here would agree (except for Heather, but I haven't found too many rat's asses that care in regard to that matter).
Rick, please get Mad Dog Harlan on that prick! These people need to know what asses they make of themselves in the world....it might actually prevent more stupidity in the future and make the world a better place.
P.S. If you need donations to keep the site running until you are employed again, please don't be afraid to ask! I became officially unemployed today, but being that I come from a large company I received a separation package that would allow me to sit on my ass until February 2003 if I wanted to....but I don't, so I will be happy to chip in! The only other board I have ever gone to on the web is the new Webderland board, but all I do there is mock Joseph Finn about his White Sox and his first place Webderland Team (while I yearn to stay above the Mendoza Line and pray my pitching keeps me alive).
-TODD
The mention of Bill Moyers' history with Lyndon Johnson prompts me to mention that I'm about halfway through the third volume of Robert Caro's incredible biography. Titled _Master of the Senate_, it covers the years that Lyndon Johnson served in the Senate-- and how he managed to change decades-ossified procedure, upend the seniority system, stack committees for his own purposes, and managed to get the Civil Rights Act of 1957 passed. Utterly flabbergasting portrait of a political genius in his element, and alongside of Caro's own _The Power Broker_ essential reading for any intelligent American.
I'll pass this next anecdote along for your personal edification. I've describe the local battle over an Historic District proposal here before. This past Wednesday was a public meeting hosted by the advocates. We, the opponents, spread some flyers around to encourage people to attend. I focused on the more run-down areas of the district, because the people who live there are going to be hardest hit by this-- and I noticed very few of the advocates' posters in those areas.
Anyway, a few days before this public meeting, I wrote a note on a local listserve where I described some of the comments made by the advocates at a local block meeting. I'd taken good notes, and some of their comments were a bit hair-raising. Well, after this public meeting, the main guy behind the HD proposal sidles up to me-- along with two buddies, who surround me in the classic schoolyard beating-up configuration. They nod at each other, agree to get their stories straight, and begin haranguing me about what an evil person I am. "We're gonna watch you," they say, "you be careful what you write, because we're watching you." Straight out of _The Big Knife_.
I took it pretty calmly, surprisingly enough; the main guy's on the zoning board, and one of his thugs is my block captain, so they could give me some grief if they really wanted to. I gave an account of what happened with some others on our side within a few moments after it happened.
But I am astounded that the advocates could revert so quickly to schoolyard bullies. And there's a certain amount of pride I have in the fact that they did this to _me_, probably because it's no secret that I've been doing most of the writing against their proposal.
What's actually saddest is this; these guys probably consider themselves to be decent liberals who believe in tolerance and diversity. But they're basically thugs, and the more power they get, the more this area will turn into another whites-only enclave.
These days I continue to find myself bereft of the proper amount of time to read, never mind contribute to, the interesting threads (such as the nature of writers and writing) on this board. Just some short items:
My beloved grandmother adored _archy & mehitabel_. Shortly after she married my grandfather (this was in frontier Fairbanks, Alaska in the late 1920s), she tried to read it aloud to him as her parents had once read to each other, but the experiment was a miserable failure. My prudish grand-dad thought mehitabel was a bit of a slattern. And I've never gotten around to that book, I'm sorry to say. But a Marquis quote has become permanently lodged in my brain, to wit:
Publishing a book of poetry in America is like dropping a rose petal off the rim of the Grand Canyon and listening for the echo.
Justin -- The dictum "show, don't tell" is a nearly universal line of teachers of writing to their pupils, and hard to define as it is, nonetheless useful for all that. What it means is: Don't cut corners. Get the details right. Don't say "he felt this," "she thought that," -- show them saying and doing things that intimate to the reader what they're feeling. Learn to describe inanimate objects and landscapes or cityscapes in concrete details that connote states of mind and mood. It's much easier to discuss specific examples than to define this in the abstract....
Somebody mentioned that Fantagrafics is getting back on line with its Krazy Kat series. I wish they'd continue with their complete Jules Feiffer collection!
Some time ago, when Joseph Campbell was the subject of discussion, Bill Moyers was mentioned for the documentary work he did with Campbell and I think Heather asked about Moyers. I was reminded of this last night when I caught up with the tape I made of an hour-long show he did on corporations v. Free Speech a few months back.
Moyers is not a philosopher, folklorist, or theologian, he's a broadcast journalist. I believe he was President Johnson's press secretary, or at least worked in Lyndon's press office, but since then he's done a lot of interesting projects, mostly for public broadcasting. Many are political in content, although three years ago he did a series called "The Genesis Project," in which he got various priests, ministers, rabbis, and literature professors to talk about the first book of the Bible as a literary and cultural artifact. It was surprisingly interesting.
The show I watched the other night talked about how money trumps free speech in this country. The illustrations included how a female conservative Republican state senator was crushed by hog farming coalition once she began to notice that her constituents were suffering from fumes and pollution, and the rivers were getting clogged with algae because of hog farms, how Big Tobacco killed McCain's bill to make cigarettes pay more for the health effects of tobacco, and how the 1996 media bill got lobbied in Congress and smothered as a story in the media so that digital wavelengths belonged to the public and could have been auctioned off for billions were handed over to the networks for free.
Moyers tends to be pretty liberal, but he's also fair and does stories nobody else will do.
SUSAN: I sent the document to the copyright office on 4/4, by certified mail. I haven't rec'd the green return card. I went to my PO today and the computer indicates the package is in DC, but hasn't been accepted or rejected. The postal worker indicated the copyright office could be busy like IRS and you won't get the green card for maybe 2 1/2 months. Does this sound accurate and what is the approximate length of time until the registration is rec'd from the CR office? Thanks for helping me clarify this. Charlie
EBERT ON FILM:
Hey, Rob, can we also wage the occasional internecine war over the merits of Roger Ebert?
I just read his review of 8 1/2 and I think he offers a very valid observation. He hardly came up with the notion but it's an idea that seems to be forgotten by most modern filmmakers and critics:
"The critic Alan Stone, writing in the Boston Review, deplores Fellini's "stylistic tendency to emphasize images over ideas." I celebrate it. A filmmaker who prefers ideas to images will never advance above the second rank because he is fighting the nature of his art. The printed word is ideal for ideas; film is made for images, and images are best when they are free to evoke many associations and are not linked to narrowly defined purposes. "
I like that.
Comments?
Frodo & Sam? Aragorn & Arwen? Suraman & Gandalf? Yin & Yang? God & Goddess? Fish & Fowl? Woodward & Bernstein? Franklin & Eleanor? Soddom & Gommorah? Abraham & Sarah? Bernie & Eve?
Perhaps more later as the mood strikes...
You may want to sit down because I have some news that will shock you this afternoon: my gelatinous simian brain is not adequately processing something. It could be the lack of sleep and the two Jolt colas that currently have me amped up like a Peavey at an Aerosmith concert, but I don't think I'd know what this thing means even in a semi-lucid state. I got a paper back from my English teacher today and she gave me an A on it, and thanked me because it made her laugh. I was pleased with myself, because mostly I just try to make people laugh in the stuff I write for school (Harvard won't be beating down the door any time soon, rest assured). But she went on to say that "the main advice I can give is to work on showing rather than telling--then good use of imagery will become great use of imagery and you will be able to lead your audience where you want it w/out readers feeling led." I'll make an appointment with her to discuss this further, but if someone can help me out here I'd appreciate it. I think I need the difference between showing and telling illustrated for me more clearly, because right now I'm still not sure what precisely to fix. Aren't you "showing" people what you want them to see when you "tell" them what's going on? Me is confoosed. Thanks in advance.
Rick: That's awful. Sorry you have to put up with the joiks like that on accounta your nifty site here. 'Taint right.
Harlan, you amaze me. With all the shit you have to deal with right now, you're still willing to take the time to hunt down a weasel for a buddy. I wouldn't be surprised if the words "too" and "busy" never crossed your lips side by side in that particular order. It's not just that I aspire to amass a Hoplite phalanx of friends like you, it's that I aspire to BE a friend like that myself. Good, solid, manly stuff. Makes me wanna go drinking with some guys and whistle and women and make crude remarks.
*belch*
J
I just had to giggle madly and clap my hands in glee at HE's most recent posting - it must feel great to have Harlan on your side, eh Rick? Even if nothing ever becomes of it, it's like knowing you have a loaded weapon ready to fire - you don't have to actually shoot it to know what the end result would look like.
Could you IMAGINE HE's response to that idiot?
*mad giggles and hand clapping again*
-Still Dotless
-Zoe Rose
I appreciate the Don Marquis discussion. I'd never looked at his work. I'll seek him out. Every now and then you people have your uses.
Re: Harlan's backyard.
I had this image flash in my head as we all cut up his lawn with our cloven hooves: Chris and I will spout off Atheist dogma while doing a rigadoon - leaving the others galled and incensed -and upon drawing borders we divide the yard into two tiny nations to be led to Armageddon by Satan...'gainst the kingdom of God himself. (Stage hands...cue the mad laughter please).
Harlan may get pigeonholed as a numen by neighbors...but das vut 'appenz ven you pud up vis us.
...uh. What a way to wake late in the morning. It's not like I have anything better to do.
RICK SWEETIE BABY DAHLIN':
Nobody fucks with my friends. NObody.
Send me a way to reach The Heir to the Throne of the Kingdom of SnakeShitAnia, and I promise you, old chum, I will either contact him physically and make the point that he is a prime example of the demise of Western Civilization, or reach him by phone/fax to send him into the outer darkness he deserves.
You actually do not have to put up with such crap. Not on my behalf, nor that of the dear Webderlanders. In a world where Jesse Helms retires in January, it is our duty to eradicate hyena droppings such as your avatar.
NOBODY fucks with MY pals.
Gilgamesh J. Ellison
Wyatt & Doc...Cook & Dudley (I know)... Sturm & Drang... Vladamir & Estragon... Jay & Bob... Rosie & Guildy... Vic & Blood... Hope & Crosby... Lennon & McCartney... Elton & Bernie... Threepio & Artoo... Billie & Satchmo... Bruce & Dick... Jekyll & Hyde... Snap & Crunch... Thing 1 & Thing 2... Death & Taxes... Deathroll & Necksnap... Sunshine & Rainbow... Jesus & Judas
Rick - The guy's wife and/or daughter probably demasculated him for his inability to search the web. His attack on you was projecting his shrinking dinkie issues on you. Fuck 'em if they can't find their soul.
What can I say about RELIGION without going off on a rant? Not much. About time those dress-wearing cloistered elitists catch up to this century. Just my humble opinion.
Jay
Uncloaked Lurker- Yeah, I know, but plotting makes me feel better, anyhow. *malicious grin*
--Dotless,
--Zoe Rose
Rick: That man is a total failure as a human being. His rude behavior is beyond the pale. Only an idiot would presume that running this website is your bread and butter; that you are here to serve any and all who query you about things Harlan; that your life permits instant replies to emails from nits who have a casual questions that could be answered with a 15 minute search on the w.w.w. My blood is boiling because (without ever having met you) I know you're decent guy. This boy doesn't deserve to carry your mouse pad. A pox on his house from a pissed Wilder.
R.
Zoe:
Flaming them does look like a good idea at the start, but it can at times cause much more trouble than it's worth. Let it go, the person's not worth it.
I understand anger at someone's childishness, but the correct answer is not to become childish yourself.
Rick~ You could always try the cyber-version of Harlan's "Dear Sir: Someone with severe mental illness is sending emails on your behalf." Preferably with a copy of your response attached.
Little minds, my friend. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this forum. I can honestly say to you that it has changed my life in subtle and powerful ways. I don't think we could ever say thank you enough.
As for the job and the anniversary, I know virtual hugs don't count for much, but if you ever need someone to talk to, you have my number. Sometimes I even shut up long enough to listen to your problems. Just ask Harlan. ;)
Cindy~ I'm savoring your screenplay one page at a time. I finally had to print out a copy to take to lunch with me. I'm not a screen writer, so all I can give you is thumbs-up feedback, but I gots two of 'em and they're way up so far.
mrao,
L.
Michael and Bermanator- Please don't name the gerbils Zoe and Peter! Because when they suddenly start going at it and having babies, I don't want to have to explain to everyone that I'm really not having 16 babies a month, nor that I try my best to refrain from 'fucking like gerbils'. Cute idea, but the scary outcomes are endless...
Rick- You should tell us the e-mail address of this obvious loser - we'll flame him for you. I have no compunctions about doing so either! It was his goddamned mistake!! If there's anything we faraway few can do to help, let us know.. we owe you, Rick, and bigtime. You rock. Period. Nobody should screw with our webmaster.
-The Dot Dot Warrior out for blood (on Rick's behalf)
-Zoë Rose
archy & mehitabel? freddy the rat? warty bliggens the toad? the old soak? i've loved them since childhood, at first reading them as a child would, but starting to see Marquis' satire becoming stronger with age. all the while, I've never lost my enjoyment.
"i climbed upon my boss his desk
to type a flaming ballad
and there i found a heap grotesque
of socks and songs and salad..."
for our fifth anniversary scotty surprised me with a copy of the album "archy & mehitabel, a back alley opera", with carol channing and eddie bracken as the characters. i've got it on just now. has anyone else seen the movie "shinbone alley"?
if you get a chance, find Marquis' poem, "an ode to hollywood", about his short and frustrating stint as a screenwriter.
Rick: You have mine and Scotty's sympathies. If I've not said how much I get a kick from what you've created here, and the fun I have speaking to others of intelligence and creativity, well, it has gotten said now. Thank you, and I hope all works out for you.
I'm off, the man wants to go to lunch.
Love to all, Melissa
Rick,
Here's a big boid to the petty nitwits you ahve to deal with (myself sometimes included).
All,
Harlan's mention of Herriman reminds me to note that Fantagraphics is resuming the anthologizing of the Krazy Kat comics (that was lkeft off by Eclipse a decade ago), in the volume "Krazy and Ignatz: The Komplete Kat Komics 1925 & 1926." Really, really essential. Funny as hell and touching beyond belief. Also has a good amount of analysis and essays on the work. Good stuff.
As for the amazing gerbil brothers, how about Cuff and Link? Hey,a good "Rocky" reference never hurt anyone. Or Jay and Silent Bob. Or Tristan and Isolde.
Regards,
Joseph
MOVIN' TO CALI:
Unless things change drastically (like Loyola Marymount actually gets backtomeAND I decide I want to go there),I'll bemoving to Orange,CA. My understanding is that most L.A. folks don't even consider that to be part of the L.A. area but rather a different world altogether. Hey, what can I say? Not every school accepts old men. I can't be choosy.
I intend to spend quite a bit of time in L.A. even if the "only 20 minutes from L.A." really means I have to spend an hour or more driving into the city. Oh so damn much I want to do out there. I have traveled the country rather extensively on several solo cross-country drives but despite spending a great deal of time in the southwest, I have not yet so much as set foot in the state of California. I had a feeling I'd wind up there one day so I always wanted to leave it unexplored until I make my big move.
GERBIL NAMES:
ROSENCRANTZ and GUILDENSTERN
FEAR and LOATHING
TRISTAN and ISOLDE (they don't what gender they are so it doesn't matter)
Cindy: Not priests so much as cardinals.
To answer your question: "Zero Tolerance" conflicts with church doctrine that states all individuals have the potential to be redeemed, and defrocking priests or turning them over to secular authority would permanently extinguish that potential. In the minds of the cardinals, this should only be _considered_ if the offending party meets the below listed criteria.
Film-writers: I've got a copy of David Mamet's _On Directing Film_ if anyone wants it. It's currently part of my emergency storage space clean-up pile, which means that it's gotta go anyway. As it cost a mighty 99 cents to begin with, you can have it free of charge to the untraceable PO box of your choice. How's that for a non-sales pitch? Respond to the email address above.
archy and mehitabel: Reading about the cat and the cockroach are forever linked with reading James Thurber in my mind, as I encountered both around the same time when I was small. Or at least smallish. If you can find any of those great Thurber collections in your travels, pick them up too.
Cheers,
Jon
FOR THOSE WHO WONDER AT THE REWARDS OF RUNNING THIS SITE:
Here's a little story.
This monday I get an e-mail from a guy who'd had some material posted on my site. He'd recently lost some of his HE collection. The e-mail asked in which story or book Harlan's recounting of his days working for Disney appeared. It referenced the "Don't fuck with the mouse" bit.
I'm pretty busy lately. My job goes away this Tuesday and I don't have another one yet. This month is both the one-year anniversary of my divorce and the time in which the government demands I pay the piper. But I did a bit of research, which sparked my memory that not only is this bit from "THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE" but that essay is available on my website. I shot back (less than an hour later) an e-mail with the URL, then just after another e-mail because I'd forgotten to answer the question and tell him the book source was STALKING THE NIGHTMARE.
Well, unfortunately, this gentleman had sent his query from his wife or daughter's Juno account, and didn't include any other return information. So my response went back to that source, and he never got it. So what did he do? He sent me this last night:
---
Rick Whynot:
The quote that I was asking you about earlier was from "stalking the nightmare."
I should have thought that you'd either know it or that you would at the very least point me in the right direction.
Two of my more intense dislikes are dealing with incompetent wannabes and frustrated bootlickers. You can also add contrived arrogance and childish petulance to my list of distasteful qualities.
Tell me rick, were you breast-fed? Or are you a bottle baby?
Again thanx for giving what you had to offer: nothing...
Sweet dreams babycakes.
----
So if anyone ever wonders, is it cool to run the Ellison website? Well, sometimes. Harlan is a great guy and a good friend and he makes me laugh at least once a week. I've met a lot of great people and I feel like I'm serving the common weal.
But I also get to field a lot of trivial questions, and GOD FORBID I don't pony up an answer. I also get 2 or 3 things a week like the little number above. Sometimes more. I get them purely because in running Harlan Ellison's web page I get in the way of people's misdirected feelings of fury and entitlement.
So if I at times seem pointed or curt, it may be because of nothing more than the number of shitheads I had to work through to get to you. And you have my apologies.
Quote of the Day, from Crossfire: From William Donohue, head of the Catholic League, describing his worries about the punitive policies towards pedophilic priests:
"There's going to be a national policy that all can agree to on the easiest cases. What about the cases where a priest at a Christmas party, straight or gay, has a bit too much to drink and he hits on somebody in the parish? One time..."
Aren't priests suppossed to restrict their drinking to the sacramental wine?
Later on, Tucker Carlson makes the following point about robotics and space travel:
GARVER: Would we have sent -- would Jefferson have sent robots to explore the west. We need to go as a people. We're part of exploring...
CARLSON: Right.
CARVILLE: Well, he couldn't send a robot.
CARLSON: No, but if Lewis and Clark were robotic, it would have been an entirely different trip. You must admit.
Let me add my congrats to the prize-winning team of Zoe Dot Dot and Peter! And if you look at the synchronicity of it all, Captain Bermanator, wouldn't "Zoe" and "Peter" sound great for a pair of gerbils?
Of course, P.A., if you were to get a mated pair, "Michael" and "Alia" are really the only names you need...
Word has come down the pike from the local constabulary that Coffee-boy, a.k.a. "Scumwad," has indeed been arrested. No further details as yet.
BUT, what has really moved me to actually write something here is my renewed amazement at the depth of literary savvy around here. archy and mehitabel. I suppose by now I should not be surprised that Harlan and the rest of you have read something so close to my heart...but I truly thought that this particular jewel was one that I alone remembered! I have been telling people about Don Marquis' wonderful writings for years, and all I ever got for my trouble was a blank stare (yes, from you, too, Justin m'boy). I first discovered the cat & cockroach when I was but a wee tad, in a book owned by my great-uncle George, a book he was kind enough to give me, one which has become a prized possession. Over the many intervening years I have tracked down and devoured every word I could find by Don Marquis. It was well worth it. What a delight to find that there are others who love it as well as I! What a swell bunch of eggheads you all are!
And to this day, whenever -I- get writer's block, I just imagine archy hurling himself head-first into the typewriter keys. If he could work that hard, so can I.
Best to all,
Michael
toujours gay, archy, toujours gay
XANADU,
Are you referring to the Priest debacle?
I don't understand their reluctance to implement a one strike you're out policy. What the fuck?
They're lucky I am not the Pope. I would have the HEADS of every swinging son of a bitch that KNEW about it and covered it up or (WORSE)passed the trash. It's pretty bad when the church won't commit to protecting the children. I would think that step one would be to drive the rats into the sea.
I love the Catholic Church and this breaks my heart.
Even if I'm a Lutheran.
Cindy
BERMANATOR,
DEEEEEEELIGHTED!
I was secretly hoping you would read it.
Thanks for the honor you do me.
Cindy
Well, I momentarily attempted to revert back to my real name, but it seems that 'Little Washu' and 'Benjamin' have become interchangeable now. Not that I mind, but never let the 'Little' fool you. Real life...big person.
For anyone interested: Finally saw METROPOLIS last night (the anime, not the Fritz Lang vehicle) and I was...impressed, I guess. The animation and character designs were indeed spectacular, but I kept getting the feeling as if I've seen this all before...that is, the gigantic future city, the robot trying to discover what it means to be human, the evil government, everything (and everyone) going berserk at the end, etc. If anyone else here is a veteran of anime, you'll know what I mean. The production is FANTASTIC, but ultimately you're left with a feeling of, "And?"
MELODY: I've been tempted time and again to watch the adaptation of A BOY AND HIS DOG, but have decided to crack down and read the novella FIRST. No, I haven't read A BOY AND HIS DOG yet. I've read probably the most obscure Ellison stories out there, and I haven't read A BOY AND HIS DOG. I know I'm gonna get bashed for this.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I somehow missed the news yesterday and the world I give to my children saddens me beyond measure...
Notorious. Serial. Predatory.
...
Parents of Webderland – hold your kids close – protect them. No one else will.
Alex K.~ Funny, my Aunt has a cat named Ignatz as well. Sounds like you've got good taste. :)
P.A.B.~ I've tried looking at the name-the-gerbil issue from the point of view your cat might take. Howzabout "Lunch" and "Dinner"?
Justin~ How many times have we told you? No gunplay in the house, take it outside if you're gonna make a mess. Sheesh...
-Andrew
Good morning, all!
Thanks again for all the positive support and warnings - unlike Peter I'm not experienced in submitting things places, so although I like to think I'm prepared for rejections, I'm sure I'll come crying to you all sometime. Indeed, the last time I wrote for a contest was in third grade, I think - and I won third place for a Halloween story.
As far as sharing, well.. I can't really go and post it now, Peter! Actually, I have a webpage elsewhere and I might post it there once it's cleaned up a bit - although, I'd love if any comments could come to my e-mail, so I won't be afraid to show my virtual face hereabouts. *heh* I'll be posting it soon and will be sure to let y'all know.
Justin - Could you at least take the slaughter over a ways so I don't get splattered? :)
Harlan - Where? All I know is I'm slated for missile school in the military. If that's not a place to write freely and imaginatively, I don't know where is [insert sarcasm here]. We'll see. I do know I'll be camping in your backyard.. invasion of the dots? Well, you never know.
I'm sure I've forgotten someone, but will post again later. Must return to sleep (aaah, got to love these class-free Fridays).
Dot-a-licious-ly
Zoë Rose
Zoe and Peter: Congratulations! If you don't want that money clogging up your lives, though, send the cheques to me and I'll reimburse you with the so-much-more-permanent Grade 6 Remembrance Day Poetry Prize plaque that I have stashed around here someplace. Although I guess you'd half to saw it in half...
PAB: Brute and Glob were characters in Joe Simon and Jack Kirby's short-lived Sandman series from the 1970s. I don't know whether or not B&G appeared when Roy Thomas revived the yellow-and-red Sandman in Wonder Woman and Infinity Inc. There's a Sandman page out there somewhere that goes through the origins of the various characters that Gaiman plays with but didn't create in the series (Scott Free, Prez, Dr. Destiny, Element Girl, others) as well as those he did.
Cheers,
Jon
Mr. Berman: Over the last four years I have set up a series of rules for myself about my writing, one of which is "no posting on webpages," unless it is an honest to goodness sale (another rule is "write for myself and not a market -- worry about market later). I set this rule up for two reasons. The first is simply that posting a story online smacks too much of vanity press to me, and I'm too confident in my ability to go that route. The second is a little more complicated. Posting a story online, in a forum, on a webpage, or anywhere else is technically considered "published." Unless you've got a name behind you (and I don't) it is really difficult to get something re-printed. I do not want a story rejected for things that I can control, like format, grammar, clunky sentences, or the fact that I'm sending in what is technically a "reprint."
However, I am willing to share my writing, stories, or poems, with people who ask. Since you asked, I will send. I assume you want to read my winning entry. Since I don't know what that is yet, I ask for your patience.
This goes for anybody on the board, too. If you want to read what I wrote, ya just have to ask. I hope you understand my reluctance to share publicly, though.
---Peter
Congrats to Zoe and Peter. Winning rules. I'm sure you both richly deserved it. Maybe you'd post your stories somewhere that we could all read them? IF we promise not to be envious, intellectual assholes?
Cindy: if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to read your script too. Please? Willya send it to me too?
To all who offered gerbilious names: an embarrassment of riches. I'm still pondering them. Maybe I'll have to look into their little rodent faces to truly know what names would fit. I was also thinking of Brute and Glob, from Sandman. You know, the little nightmares who esacped? Gaiman's always good for names.
Bermanator
For those of you who actually have money...Amazon.com carries aRCHY and mEHITABEL, ARCHYOLOGY: THE LONG LOST TALES OF aRCHY and mEHITABEL, and ARCHYOLOGY II : (THE FINAL DIG) THE LONG LOST TALES OF aRCHY and mEHITABEL, at prices that won't break the bank, unless of course it's mine. But I'll pick 'em up soon. It looks like great stuff.
I could have sworn there was something else I'm supposed to be doing right now. Something to do with school, mabe. I wonder what it could possibly be. I seem to have forgotten.
Oh that's right. Commiting suicide so I don't have to go to class tomorrow: So, uh, Harlan. Up late, huh? What happened? I thought people your age were legally required to go to bed after MATLOCK. Tee hee hee. (Aim for the head, please, sir. Open casket funerals give me the creeps.)
Too snarky to live,
too clever to die,
J
I interrupt this all-nighter to congratulate Zoe and Peter on their achievements! Huzzah! I salute you!
And now, before the books regain consciousness, I must resume hitting them until they can be hit no more. Sleep is fo' pussies.
J
GOOD GRIEF INDEED!
Does this mean that not only do Susan and I have to put up with Rob and Lynn, but Zoe Dot Dot and Chris L. in our backyard, as well!!?!!
My life bids fair to metamorphose into a hideous rigadoon.
(By the way, Chris, I still have a WHIZ COMICS to return.)
Malthusianly thine, yr. pal, Harlan
ALEX:
Yes, THE LIVES AND TIMES OF aRCHY & mEHITABEL by Don Marquis (best edition: the "new edition" with an introduction by E.B. White, illustrated throughout by George "Krazy Kat" Herriman, Doubleday, 1950) is one of the nonpareil wonders of American literature--toujours gai, toujours gai--but it is only in the past twenty-five or thirty years that it has become "neglected."
I envy all of you who will be entering the lower-case world of the cockroach/reincarnated vers libre poet and the raunchy concupisant cat for the first time! Ah, such laughs and smiles will soon be thine.
But. The quotation I served up is not from archy & mehitabel, Alex, it is from one of newspaperman Don Marquis's books of essays . . . I just cannot remember which, at 1 in the morning.
Congrats Zoe Dot Dot and Peter. That's how I started, too. Won the National Scholastic short story prize while attending Champion Junior High School (no longer standing) in Painesville, Ohio, in 1948 or '49. Without ever having read it, or indeed even knowing of its existence, apparently I won with a story that very closely paralleled Karel Capek's famous "R.U.R."
I never found that out till ten years later.
You're on your way. The question, always, is WHERE?
Yr. pal, Harlan
P.A. BERMAN:
Two sets of gerbil monickers assert themselves in my sleepless brain.
GOG and MAGOG.
QUIXOTE and SANCHO PANZA.
he
Thanks everyone. I'm not sure if it's completely sunk in yet, and I still don't know which category, or which place, I've won. I find that out tomorrow.
As for rejection . . . As I write this, I'm staring at an ever growing pile of rejection slips pinned to my wall. So I'm way ahead of you on that one. In fact, I had just received my latest (and most impersonal to date) slip on Tuesday. I just have to keep plugging away. I'm in this for the long haul. Always have been.
This and I'm turning twenty-four on Saturday. Seems to me that this has actually turned out to be a good week.
Zoë: (I will forever remember that alt-0235 now) Congratulations on your award as well. Sorry I didn't say so earlier, but I was between classes.
---Peter (who is actually in "Cali")
CONGRATS TO ZOE AND PETER! Great going. Here's hoping you have many more triumphs along the way.
-- Lorin
ZOE!!!!! GIRL CHILD!!! Kickin' ASS and takin' NAMES. You're a firecracker. High FIVE!
:)
Chris!!!!! I think that's just grand! You go to film school and tell me what they're teaching you.. a bit of vicarious living is good for those who live in the middle of nowhere.
Good for YOU!
Peter! OOOOOOOOOOO an awards CEREMONY!!!!! That is SO FUN!!!!! Don't start freaking about what you're going to wear.. you have PLENTY of time. You WON! You WON!
I'm delighted on your behalf.
And NOW I am SIGNING off, so y'all can quit your murmuring about how I should be shutting my yap and going back to the FINAL DRAFT ROCK PILE to work on my glitch.
So I say to you all, Good NIGHT, Adieu!! TOMORROW I WILL LAY BEFORE YOU MY SOUL!
Uhhh lie before you my soul? Noooo that doesn't sound right at all.
It's late and I'm gettin' punchy.
:)
Cindy
OH!
AND TO ALL OF Y'ALL WHO AGREED TO READ MY SCRIPT UNDER DURESS...
OR WHO WERE WORN DOWN BY MY PLEADING AND ENDLESS SUPPLICATION--
I beg your pardon as well and ask for one more day to fix the FORMAT PROBLEM.
Picture the kid in the 70s movie Oliver Twist " Playze suh, kin oye 'ave some mooowa?"
Only in MY case it's " Kin oye 'ave one mooowa dah-eee?"
You KNOW I know I owe you all.
God love yer little hearts,
Cindy
XANADU
I owe you most of all.
Have a sweet night.
:)
Yer pal,
Cindy
FINDER!
WELCOME ABOARD!
TO ALL OF Y'ALL KIND ENOUGH TO ASK TO READ MY SCRIPT--
I set about to send you the Final Draft Version via RTF or however I could get it done. I took one last glance around and found a few more glitches which WILL BE IRONED OUT BY TOMORROW EVENING!!!!!!!!
I promise you-- I will provide you all with engaging stuff to curl your toes and make you wonder BY THIS TIME TOMORROW NIGHT.
That means you will have something lovely and creepy to peruse for the weekend.
I am terribly sorry for the delay, but wasn't it Dorothy Parker who said she couldn't write five words without editing seven?
I am no Dorothy Parker, who is? BUT I do tamper and tinker and tweak when it's clearly necessary. This is some strange formatting problem that mixes my action with my dialogue in spots. Very distracting and annoying but fixable.
Can y'all bear with me please? I promise you won't be disappointed.
:)
Ah SWANNIE,br>
Cindy
Bermanator: How could I forget - Strunk and White? Piss and Vinegar? Rock and Roll? Dumb and Dumber?
It's late, I'm tired - have a good night folks.
Zoë and Peter: Whoo-hoo! Good job and good luck! Let's hope this is the start of something great for both.
Chris L. : Best of luck to you, sir. Some among us need to dream the impossible dream for all of us.
To Melissa and Bag O' Scott - thank you for the lovely vignettes of parenthood - I find myself smiling in recognition at every mention of your little ones and their whims and wants. Please continue.
To those who have dealt with recent medical and/or family traumas - I hope all involved are doing well. With special nods to Michael and Alia, Lynn, Faisal and anyone else I may be forgetting.
With a quick knock on wood to avoid jinxing things, perhaps these are signs 2002 will turn out better than '01.
Happy thoughts to all.
Zoe,
Congratulations, kid! Feels great, huh? I just loves it when I win once in a while. By the way, as long as you're talking to the weather gods, who are dumping on you right now, could you PLEASE ask them where the hell they were this winter? We're so dry out here in Colorado that we've got a major brushfire situation already. Not TOO far from my old home town, Evergreen. (okay, it's not that close, but still...) Just wait until summer comes. Maybe the parsimonious bastards could give us a little rain, maybe?
Peter,
Congrats to you too, buddy. Looks like you've been hard at work. I hope this is but a harbinger of things to come.
To you both,
Of course, if you WANT to really be writers, that will mean a lot of hard work and rejection. I hope you both can cope with rejection because that is part of the landscape. Of course when it works....
Faisal,
And, don't forget the REALLY STRANGE PICTURE SHOW (or was that "incredibly strange"?) also did Ed Wood. A very insightful look into the man's work and life. He had no talent at all, in my opinion, but he had such a PASSION for filmmaking. If his talent had matched his passion, he would have been dangerous. Extremely dangerous, especially for the fifties.
It is unfortunate that you got no recognition for the act of saving a child. But then, you weren't thinking about that at the moment it happened. And, one kid got to grow up because of you. Hip, hip, HURRAH, is what I say. By the way, do you know the child? Is he doing alright these days? Sometimes one can lose touch.
Bermanator,
How about Gaspara and Dactyl? Pluto and Charon? Frick and Frack? Olson and Johnson? Stanley and Ollie?
Chuck
Chris L- good job on chasing the dream! GOod luck, and you're NEVER too old, I'd say. Where in Cali ya moving? I'm moving there myself, soon... about two hours north of LA.
--Zoë Rose
Wow- thanks, all. Your guys' comments made me hop around almost as much as the Composition person who posted the sign with my name in big bold letters (in a hallway no one traverses, but oh well) did. *sniff*
Peter - High five!
And, as for a sample... heh. After rereading it, I've decided it needs not only a major overhaul in editing of the basics (repeated words, grammar, etc) but a few fixer-uppers. But.. maybe sometime soon when I've worked on it a bit more.
Wow - you guys are now responsible for this big goofy grin plastered on my face.
--Zoë Rose
Congratulationss to Zoe and Peter on your success. I hope it's the start of something big for both of you.
I can't match that news but I did just get into film school. Again. I went in the mid-90's but had to drop out when my father died. I decided that even though I am "too old" to be doing this sort of crazy thing I would pick up my old dream and try to finish what I started. What can I say? I just love me them movin' picshurs.
In September, I'll actually be living in California. As Charlie Brown would say, "Good grief!"
I watched "A Boy and His Dog" for the first time today. I enjoyed the movie and am looking forward to reading the story (novelette?). I would like to say to Mr. Ellison that I found your post regarding the stupidity of thinking Quilla to be in love amusing to say the least. My fiance (who works third shift and was dosing through out the movie) was puzzled by the same thought. No doubt if he had been fully awake while we watched, the thought would not have crossed his mind. Anyway, I am curious as to your view of the film. Were you disappointed, or did it turn out as you pictured? As I have not read the story, I am not sure how close the movie came, but I would like to know how you feel. I am personally not a Don Johnson fan and was distracted by his acting, so my opinion is rather biased. This is my first visit to this site and I have enjoyed reading the comments. I would like to say that the chair analogy in regards to the Moonlighter story made me laugh. I can't remember who wrote it, but good one!!
Zoe dot-dot! CONGRATULATIONS! A kind word from our patron author AND a winning work in the same day??? Could it be more than simple luck? ;)
Peter! Way to go buddy!
Good days all around then!
Leave it to Harlan to pull a perfect quotation out of a unjustly neglected classic. Harlan, have you ever considered putting together a reader's bibliography? That is, a short tome of recommended books, with reasons why everyone should know these authors? Okay, okay, you've got enough projects underway. Still, you've made so many recommendations that have enriched my library over the years...
For those who want to sample archy and mehitabel before seeking out a genyoowine book, here's a URL to a page that links to some samples: http://208.56.153.48/donmarquis/ It also sports a wonderful George Herriman picture. Bet I don't have to identify _him_ around here, right? Hey, Ignatz, izzat a brick?
I ever tell you guys our cat's name? Ignatz?
Anyway.
Zoe, congratulations on the award. Bet it's the first of many.
--alex
Dammit, forgot (a sure sign of impending old age):
Zoe: My husband's and my heartiest congrats, and best wishes on a good start to a great career.
Melissa (still glad she doesn't watch hockey)
P.A.:
Might I suggest Dog and Cat? Irrelevant, inane; the perfect combination for a lunatic grin when someone asks why, and you explain:
"I bought them during my 'Better Living Through Consumption of Various Chemicals Week'."
Melissa (happy she's not watching hockey)
Congrats to both Zoe and Peter.
Bill
I once had two mealworms named Sturm (und) Drang. These names seem equally appropriate for hamsters; you're welcome to them, as the mealworms, along with the beetles the eventually became, are long gone.
Peter~ Congrats to you too! Y'know, I had a sneaking suspicion something was in the air this morning, when I got my word-of-the-day from Dictionary.com.
propitious \pruh-PISH-uhs\, adjective:
1. Presenting favorable circumstances or conditions.
2. Favorably inclined; gracious; benevolent.
L.
Actually, I have news similar to Zoë's. I seem to have won an award from my school's english dept for my writing. Only, I do not as yet know the category(ies) I won in, or where I placed. I only know that I won . . . something. So it may be fiction, metrical verse, free verse, critical essay, humor, or some mixture thereof. I'll post more as I find out. All I know for sure is that I was told to keep next Thursday free for the award ceremony.
---Peter
Bermanator~ How about Scylla & Charybdis? Castor & Pollux? Eng & Chang? Elvis & Jessie Garon?
Hmm, gonna have to think on that one.
L.
Zoë~ Way to go! I bet cold hard cash is the *best* feedback you can get! Congratulations and are you gonna share?
ell dot
I always thought Goober and Snot would be great names for a pair of dogs - but it'd work for gerbils too. Not very clever, I admit, but I snicker when I say it, so...
Still Dotless
--Zoe Rose
A literary cockroach and his fractious feline friend? Am I looking for one in particular? archy and mehitabel, archyology, or archyology II? I know, I know. All three.
Who needs a pillow? I'll just use the books I have no place else to put.
L.
Slayer of nightstands, toppler of tomes.
Some good news!
Woohoo! Speaking of amateur writing, I recently found out that I won a little bitty cash prize from the English Dept. at my school in podunk Duluth for a "short story" contest! Never mind that I'm fairly sure there were probably only two or three other entries... and never mind that I didn't strictly adhere to the rules (they said 5000 words or more, and I gave'm 52 pages)... wheeee! I can pay for groceries AND utilities this month! And _on time_ too!
Anyhow - just thought I'd share that with y'all. It doesn't take much to make me hop around the Composition Department here like an idiot. Besides, it kept me warm - it isn't fair that it is STILL SNOWING. It's April 25th, weather-god. Time to warm into spring, dontcha think! *grumble*
Your dotless wonder for the day,
--Zoe (dot dot) Rose
Because I'm not afraid to show you all how ridiculous I am...
MOOD-LIGHTENER: Tomorrow I am going to get two gerbils. Why? Because I have a tank and a wheel sitting around looking forlorn, as such things will when no rodents are present; my incredibly vicious white mouse died unexpectedly last week.
My cats miss their Pay-Per-View.
They will both be boy gerbils. I'm looking for extraordinarily clever suggestions for names, a set of gerbil names that will make me grin idiotically whenever I say them. My best attempt came up with Frodo and Samwise. Shame on me.
Help!
Thanks,
Bermanator
HARLAN APPEARS FOR A MOMENT:
LYNN: The unattributed quotation you attributed to me is, in fact, me quoting the famous journalist Don Marquis, creator of the legenday "archy and mehitabel" (intentional lower-case); if you've never read Marquis's work, rush to your online sources for used books and get the COLLECTED archy and mehitabel.
HEATHER: Stop this juvenile pouting. Pay attention to Zoe dot-dot. She nails it. And the underlying awfulness of this whole matter is that it elevates to the level of "something you should not spend a fart's worth of time on," that which is essentially amateur. It is part of the arrogance of the generation used to running its every vagrant thought and study-hall doodle up onto the web. A place where ALL opinion--learned or lackluster or loony--has the same weight. Where ALL writing--in the minds of amateurs--is equal. That's why they think the KICK lawsuit is detrimental to their free-lunch universe: they think this kid's joyless prose is great, because he's publishing on his own...hell, ALL writers should do that...and not try to stifle the internet! This kid writes at the adolescent level of a writers' conference beginner. The kind of barely-readable stuff that would be kicked out of him in the first week of a Clarion Workshop season. But because he has the web, he can proffer this immature bilge and get naifs--like you--to pay attention. Writing is too serious, and too hard, a craft for dabblers and parvenus to distract us from that which IS worthy. But you got honest answers, Heather, so stop "mewling and puking" as Shakespeare put it.
You've wasted more than enough of everybody's time with this kid. Let him go his way. If he keeps at it and learns what voice is his, sans the arrogance of vanity publishing and roping in the gullible, he MAY one day be a writer. If not, good riddance. There are already enough poseurs in the world selling their verse on street corners, filling the precious pages of little literary magazines for no recompense, self- or vanity-publishing books of minimal ability or interest. We don't need any more lazyass scribblers who think they can go it without some training. That's like having amateur engine repairmen in garages. They don't ACTUALLY know how to do it, but they've got this cosmic sense of universal literary excellence. Holistic psychointelligence sprinkled with unicorn dust. The whole freakin' lot of 'em ain't worth a page of Donald Westlake or Gerald Kersh. Asking for opinions on upstarts like this, and then going ooooo, poor baby, is they pissing on you . . . well, Heather, you are being the worst kind of bleeding heart bad news intellectual. Writing well takes stern stuff and a clear head. This kid, at this stage, has neither. Survival of the cleverest.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Easy on the Hooptedoodle
by Elmore Leonard
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/books/16LEON.html
"These are rules I've picked up along the way to help me remain invisible when I'm writing a book, to help me show rather than tell what's taking place in the story. If you have a facility for language and imagery and the sound of your voice pleases you, invisibility is not what you are after, and you can skip the rules. Still, you might look them over."
Enjoy,
L.
I had a plan. To take a moment to stop by a favorite establishment, grab a cuppa, see who's around, catch up on who's stopped by recently.
I was going to thank Lynn for her posting of this morning. A good reminder. After that, I was going to acknowledge that I agree with some of the sentiments expressed by Roger Gould. Tell Rick I hoped the reference I sent to him would pan out, and that there's no need to thank me; small repayment for what you've done for me.
Then, make some time to reply to Zoë on the topic of "source material," how a film (picking on "Field of Dreams," as an example) can be connected to and, at the same time, so different from the previously published work it is based on ("Shoeless Joe"); what's kept, what's discarded, what's added and/or altered, the "A Film By..." debate and such. From there, make time to mention something Harlan wrote in the afterword to "The Prowler In the City At the Edge of the World":
"I was furious at the limitations of the printed page, the line-for-line rigidity of QWERTYUIOP. I wanted to break out, and the best I could do was use typographical tricks, which are in the final analysis little more than tricks. There must be some way a writer can write a book that has all the visual and sensory impact of a movie!"
...which may be why he paints such vivid portraits when he lectures, performs public readings, records audio books, etc., so WE can hear the rhythms and tones and inflections running through HIS head. Toss in a mention of Harlan the teacher, who can illustrate how to do it and also how not to do it, as in his foreword to "The Power of the Nail":
"To be absolutely upfront about it, neither Chip (Delany) nor I feel this story is successful....At least, perhaps it'll be a learning experience for all of us."
Well... okay, then... I think I'll just grab a seat over there in the corner, take my coffee with me and work on the crossword puzzle. Quietly. 'Scuse me.
I've been involved with enough good workshops to know that the biggest critical fallacy made by too many receivers of criticism (and I take Heather as a proxy to messer Moonlighter) is the personalization of the work---a projected ad-hominem attack wherein _any_ criticism directed at the work is _automatically_ an attack on the author, his ability, his personal grooming, his pets, and his mother.
I may have been flippant in my response to his writing (my criticism was of his redundant phrases by comparing them to a scene from Holy Grail) but most _everyone_ else offered not only constructive, but very astute criticisms of the writing. These were the kinds of critical analyses that would have made a successful writing workshop.
---Peter
http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/lyttony.htm
Ah, respite from the thankless task of having to explain to folks who can, at an instant's glance, ascertain with absolute certainty when one of their hockey heroes slashes or trips an opponent from the vantage of a couch in front of a 25 inch TV screen, yet somehow become blind when their own child does the same deed to an opponent not more than ten feet in front of the parent's face in the reality of an arena.
Okay, so I don't get thanks. I did get paid, and well enough to have my baby hitting on me again. As it's been said, money can't buy you love; but it sure can rent it awhile.
A brief pause to duck a swing of Mel's hand...
No comment, re Moonlighting. I get little enough time to read as it stands. Hell, I've got a pile of reading I've been wanting to get to; copies of Borges' "Nonfictions", Doris Lessing's "Briefing For a Descent into Hell", Richard Cramer's biography of Joe Dimaggio, "Word Virus" by Burroughs, a command performance of The Bag-O-Scott players interpreting "The Gingerbread Man" to my youngest daughter...I've no time for somebody who can't do it right. With apologies to all, but I'll sit out the minor spat with Heather over her poor taste in writers, and her even worse choice of insulting the good little elves who habitate the environs of the glorious Webderland, turning out that delicious cheese, particleboard coffee tables, rhinestone studded demin jackets and clog sandals so desired by folks recovering from serious bouts of failure to maintain a satndard of discriminating taste...There'll be no edam for you, Miss Heather!
A small request, guys? Let 'er up when she's had enough?
Now, if all will excuse, I've the opportunity to spend some time with the peoples who populate my life. Y'all are fun folks, mind, but tonight my beloved Canadiens are playing the Bruins, and the little ones and I have the task of cheering them to victory.
Look guys, I root for the Jays. Sportswise, the Habs being in the playoffs is probably the zenith in my year.
Tonight: One Show Only! "The Gingerbread Man"! Starring Pee Wee Herman as the Gingerbread Man, Mae West as the Old Woman, James Mason as the Farmer, and a star studded cast as the various animals! All voices performed by the Bag-O-Scott players...
Just to clarify (and apparently my writing skills aren't what I thought they were as I re-read my post): My sarcasm of the jealousy thing didn't quite make it in the post. I should've been a bit more over the top. Trust me, I'm not jealous of Moonlighter. I've read his work and there's no reason to be jealous of him. Even if his book somehow someway exceeds all of our expectations and is picked by Oprah and sells like hotcakes and stays on the bestseller lists for years and is optioned to be made into a movie and wins awards, I will not be jealous. Of this, I am definitely serious.
(I apologize to those for misunderstanding me as I really wasn't all that clear in my previous post unless I'm misunderstanding you and the understanding of the misunderstandings was misunderstood of which I would apologize profusely for misunderstanding the original understanding of misunderstandings being misunderstood and now my head hurts)
And, I think that is the last thing I say on Moonlighter.
"Everywhere I go I’m asked if the universities stifle writers. My opinion is that they don’t stifle enough of them." - Flannery O’Connor
HEATHER:
Bad writing, especially egregiously bad writing such as the examples from Moonlighter's work we have seen here, invites abuse purely on its own merit. Such abuse does not require any sort of failing or jealousy on the part of the critiquer, nor does it imply an animus towards the writer or the presenter of the writing. Rather, people who love the written word feel an obligation to discourage bad writing whenever they see it.
Harlan will confirm this. Anyone who is serious about the craft will confirm this. It is a natural tendency which says absolutely nothing about the person except that they love GOOD writing.
I will admit that people went a little too far in this, took a little too much glee in the endeavor. And you are right to defend Moonlighter, to express your own opinion and explain more clearly what you wanted. But let's look at how you conducted this defense. Let's see what you had to say about the people that disagreed with you.
- You claim that they, unlike you, cannot see writing as a joyful endeavor and instead operate from fear and envy.
- You state, with a good deal of sarcasm I might add, that they don't think but instead engage in an reflex response of scorn and derision directed at the person instead of the work.
- You conclude you have little to learn from them because they have given up on their own achievements (even including a suicide metaphor) and instead like to moan with each other in despair.
- You attribute their opinion to a desire to kick and bring down someone who is getting "one up on" them. You say this is their worldview.
- You imply that they do nothing worthwhile with their energy and time and instead spend it all making clever insulting jokes.
- You say that they don't think they are capable of this man's acheivement.
- You state that they are jealous of this man because he is actually DOING something, while instead they do nothing but sit around criticizing each other.
- You claim you got no specific advice or opinion (I saw plenty) but instead nothing but "I HATE THIS!"
- You poo-poo their honest attempts to suggest writers to look at.
What a miserable, mean-spirited, despicable, reprehensible, ill-advised, ill-conceived, and ill-executed collection of statements to make about a whole bunch of people! And how righteous you must feel for making them! What a difference you yourself have made in the world with your trenchant observations of their character! How delightful, how positive, to call someone an "asshole" for taking the time out to suggest some good writers to you!
My point? I will use all caps here to make sure it stands out: IT IS INCUMBENT ON YOU WHEN YOU DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE TO POINT OUT SPECIFICALLY HOW THEY ARE WRONG, NOT TO BURY THEM IN A SHITSTORM OF MISGUESSED MOTIVATIONS.
And besides - how wrong, how terribly wrong, you are! The folks here are not intellectual effetes cynically clawing at that they cannot themselves produce. They are not envious and bitter failures who peck at their betters or anyone who dares to strive. They are writers and teachers and programmers and journalists and workers in all facets of society and life. They are successes. I have seen them share their triumphs and defeats, and I have seen their companions here congratulate them in the one and commiserate with them in the other.
These are good people. Some are kind souls. Some are champions of various good causes. Some are even heroes.
And I am tired, Heather, of you waltzing in here like a doe-eyed orphan child and declaring that these people, my guests and my friends, are petty and mean. You are unequivocally worse than any of them in the relentless insult and innuendo you direct at anyone who dares disagree with you. Your shabby treatment of such people not only ranges from the merely disrespectful to the outright inexcusable, it also makes people reticent to express their opinion for fear of being slapped with one of your damning labels.
That's an awful thing. No one should feel afraid to speak because they are going to be needled and tormented by you. No one should be insulted and belittled because they said what they thought, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WERE ASKED.
If you really think the people here are as horrible as you say, I invite you to either swallow your disgust or find a new forum with a crowd more to your liking. Because what you are doing is misguided and wrong. It makes me so sick to my stomach I can't write anymore.
Hmm. _Bone_ and _Cerebus_ argue against a wholesale declaration that all self-published works are tripe. Then again, they're comics, and they had to establish a monthly readership in the marketplace to keep them going. I'll be damned if I can come up with a success in self-published novels that isn't simply a commercial success (_The Celestine Prophecy_ started out that way, and hoo boy, man the bilge pumps). Hurrah for professionals, definitely -- but I'm sure any of you can come up with cautionary tales about rejected manuscripts that would seem to suggest that marketplace controls are going to stop some very good writers, and not just the Moonlighters of the world, from invading the marketplace.
Jon
Heather,
It's a rain day for me. Walking an aluminum plank in pouring rain is never a good idea and since the bay window went in yesterday and the decking material delivery has been postponed I have the day off. I'm sitting here at my workstation and I can't figure out if the play I'm working on needs to deal with Clara's [one of Mark Twain's daughters] homosexuality or if we can skip that and just concentrate on trivial things like Twain's problems with race, politics, American imperialism, his own art and the death of his loved ones. Rather than make that decision I have decided to deal with you. Lucky lucky you.
I take pleasure in writing. My own as well as the writing of others. When I see a sentence like "It's a brand of air I never thought I'd find." my ability to indulge that pleasure is somewhat diminished.
Despite your petulence you will learn more and more quickly by concentrating on people with some sort of track record for being able to put out interesting and notable writing. I am belaboring this point because you are taking fairness and openmindedness to an extreme that I think is ridiculous. An open mind ought not be a dumpster. Everybody on this board has found this persons writing to be sub-standard except you. We have cited examples that addressed bad grammar, bad stylistic thinking and bad prose. At your request.
I also think you are wrong about the competetive nature of writing. I think Hemingway was close to nailing it when he characterized writing as beating dead men at their own game. At the very least, on a personal level you should be competing with the last thing that you wrote.
Using your critical faculties to come to the conclusion one persons writing is bad, really really bad, I mean to say just awful, is not a function of envy. This is not to say I'm above envy. I envy the guy who got to hold Janet Jackson's bosoms for that Rolling Stone cover. I envy people who were born rich. I envy the ability of a Jack Vance to lay down a certain kind of sentence or a Francisco de Goya y Lucientes to paint a certain type of picture or capture a certain quality of light. But trust me on this, envy is not the force that urges me on when I tell you that continuing to sing this clowns praises is the equivalent of pouring mule piss into the open eye.
As for your misguided notion that I have in somewhichway kicked "Moonlighting" in the shins [although a certain scene from Walter Tevis' "The Hustler" is what really comes to mind] I would deny this. I did not post where he posts and to the best of my knowledge he does not post here. You asked for my opinion on this board and that is exactly where I responded. The fact that my comments were negative and were received with such umbrage says to me that this is something you really didn't want to hear. Like some teen-age girl asking her friends what they think of some guy she has already made up her mind about and then having to cope with her friends ALL telling her she could do better. Too bad.
As to your spurious concern that this may alienate you or Moonlighting to me, well, you are correct in your second assumption that I already know plenty of people. With 6 billion people on this orb it's a risk I am willing, even eager to take. As to my existential despair, well one of my favorite pages in literature is the last page from the essay "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Camus. You should check it out. I'm just not all that despondant. Eeyore is a role model for fools and losers.
There is a middle section of your post here that gets rather muddled but I will attempt to address it anyway.
Jokes? No Heather I was, and am serious. Furthermore my opinion was solicited and given freely. Buy what you like.
Regarding Moonlighting's flaws - They may be legion but his public flaw is his prose style. As far as his [in your mind] commendable trait that he is doing something, my continued opinion is that his time might be better spent doing just about anything else.
So finally we come to your closing three paragraphs.
I mention Harlan for no reason other than my own pleasure. I spoke of Harlan in the sense of arguing from the lesser to the greater. I have a lot more on my mind and my plate than either your opinion of me or Moonlighting's ultimate success or failure as a writer. Scroll back a few years and things may become clearer.
but most suprising of all;
"Barney, my friend"
Ah you whipsaw me with your own web of words. Which is it to be? Shall I be your friend or an envious asshole? Could I be neither? Aristotelean logic says yes! I choose door number three.
- Barney
RICH: No need to be jealous. This gentleman really seems to be going the e-book route. His posts have all the tell-tale signs, not the least of which is the notation that his books can be ORDERED via the bookstores he mentioned. The other sign being that he's talked to his "publisher" (not editor) and that his book is apparently going from editing to the printer to distribution in what seems like very little time. Traditional publishing, even small houses, don't generally work on that schedule. Lastly, of course, he hasn't MENTIONED the name of his publisher, something most traditionally-published authors are pretty quick to do! I COULD be wrong, of course, but that's my guess.
Look, I've got no truck with self-publishing or print-on-demand, except that when it allows people to fool themselves into thinking they're getting published. REALLY published. For better or worse (sometimes worse), the publishing industry has a filtering mechanism. Vanity and POD presses, for the most part, do not.
I've seen it time and time again. A writer will come to me with a book they're about to publish through one of the big e-book publishers. Invariably they say, "Can you just do a quick proofread? That's ALL it needs." And INVARIABLY the book is a complete mess. Not just the surface stuff--typos, syntax and grammatical errors, organizational difficulties--but the big stuff as well--characterization, scene and sequel, dialogue, pacing, rhythm, theme (what theme?)--all of it needs attention. LOTS of attention.
Most times they don't want to hear it (though I tell them, anyway). Because a lot of people are quick-fix-self-gratification junkies. What's important to them is having a book in their hands. Even if it's a book with amateurish cover art and content that seems like it was randomly generated by only a NEAR-infinite number of monkeys.
As to this fellow Moonlighter's fiction...well, like Melissa, I resisted checking out his site for a long time. Part of the reason is that I make a chunk of my living critiquing writers. For PAY. So, doing it for free, especially for someone who hasn't asked me to, didn't have much appeal. The other part was that, given other people's criticisms, it didn't seem like something I had to rush out to read.
But I did take a QUICK peek today, and my impressions are just like everyone else's. No, this isn't the worst writing I've ever read, but it's sloppy, trite, and overwrought. Right away I was confronted with a misplaced comma (first sentence!), a misused apostrophe (possessive 'its' written as 'it's' - SEVERAL times), passive language, adverb and adjective-overload, the use of "weasel" words ("The tire landed JUST at his feet" (I'm paraphrasing; I don't want to look it up again)), sentences like "The car approached at a high rate of speed," which is a classic example of overwriting (Hey, how about "The car SPED toward him"?) and on and on.
HEATHER: Like many who have posted, I'm not quite sure what you were hoping for here. Kudos to the guy for likely paying someone to publish his work? Nah. For just going through the process of writing in the first place? Well, yay for him! Seriously. Even at my harshest as a critic, I don't see it as my job to disabuse people of their dreams. However, I don't see it as my job to inflate their opinions of themselves (something this guy really seems to be perfectly able to do on his own), either. People gave you their honest feedback of this work. Maybe they treated it lightly, but that's their prerogative. I didn't see jealousy as much as I saw dismissiveness, and every one of us has the right to dismiss an artistic (term used loosely) endeavor that doesn't, in our opinion, have much merit. Publishing is a tough business. It only makes it tougher on the rest of us if we're expected to pull a collective "Emperor's New Clothes" and pretend that this guy isn't butt-naked.
His being out there and getting his work in print does not equal his being an artist of any quality. And I don't think I'd want to live in the world where it did.
Over and out,
Lorin O.
Finally, I managed to get over to read what this chap Moonlighter has managed to spread forth as an attempt at the great American(?) novel. It's not fun having any number of small or large obligations, on top of what ever little sins or pleasures I'd like to engage in during a day, and it often leaves me little time to keep up with you all.
I have to state that I am a reader, not a writer by both trade and choice. That will, to some degree, limit the range of criticism I might make in regards to any debate of literary talent. Well, the chap seems to have bought wholesale into the gothic, heavy with King and Poe-like adjectives; his prose seems a bit work-a-day, laboured, as if he was trying to force the words onto the page with a small fear that they somehow wouldn't hold to the paper. Further thought leaves me to think that this is an immature voice, and I might even venture one that knows it has talent, but isn't sure of it yet.
Even then, my thoughts on Moonlighter are just opinion, with little more worth than the cost of the electricity it will take to spread my bundle of sentences out onto the web.
Heather, and all others who either agree or disagree about Moonlighter's prose are in the same boat. I don't read any overwhelming anger in anyone's comments; just the opinions of others who themselves are trying to work at being a writer. To me, and pardon the analogy, the writer is a person toiling in a field which always seems to have a good harvest being guaranteed to only a scant few fortunates, while the vast majority toil on, often never to be able to pull a meal from the ground. Talent and literary skill aren't prerequistes; luck of climate and circumstance favour the writer as often as their skill.
I know that Moonlighter's seeming success has a few of the good folks here perhaps a bit chagrined, but that's natural, Heather. They work the field too, and I must say I find it a delight to read David, or Jay, or Brian, or Faisal or you with your scattershot prose (in a humble reader's opinion, each of you display ample skill in your own right). But perhaps you're not looking at this quite right. When I see their comments regarding Moon's writing, I get a sense that they are less taking apart Moonlighting's work as a task of character assassination, more as criticism of their own work, seeing in Moon much of the mistakes they themselves have made in the past, or might be making in the present. At least that's my impression, please feel free to correct me.
As for other Webderlander's adverse comments, Heather, Scotty and I have a little saying which I'll wager sits in each of their minds: "De gustibus non est disputandum" (Tastes cannot be argued). There are going to be tons of times when I'm not going to like what, say, Chuck thinks of Kafka, or whether Barney likes "The Three Stooges". I will like them for their obviously thoughtful and engaging opinions, however.
Ooops, gotta go. I've a three year old who's woken up cranky from a nap, demanding juice in that small insolence that fatigue creates, making her somehow more endearing. Have a wonderful day, all.
Love to all, Melissa
Heather,
Yes. I admit it. I'm jealous of Moonlighter. I'm jealous that, based on the stuff that was excerpted, he found someone to publish him. I've had two stories published in very small magazines (actually, one I wouldn't even count as a magazine) and considering how hard it is to get into any magazine, when I see what Moonlighter is capable of, yes, I get jealous.
My half-assed "lambasting" of this Moonlighter was done in a mock-serious tone as it was apparent that everyone (and I do mean everyone) that commented on Moonlighter's work did so in a much more serious and compassionate manner than I would've expected coming from this group (and I believe that was after your second attempt at asking us what we thought of this guy). I believe I was the only one that did not offer constructive criticism to this guy because it was apparent that everyone (and I mean everyone) had already done that.
Bottom line: The guy ain't a writer. Whether published or not, he ain't a writer. And it does gall me when people, when anyone, shouts to the world, "Look at me!" and it turns out there's really nothing to look at.
To beat that chair analogy all the way to the ground (and to second and third and fourth what was previously said): If you bring the chair you made to a bunch of chair makers, don't be surprised when they look at the chair and ask, "Fine, but where's the seat? And the legs? And the back? And the armrests? 'Cause that don't look like no chair I've ever seen."
Sorry, that unattributed quote is Harlan's.
L.
Heather~
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you."
I think the same thing goes for truth, sometimes. Tell someone what they want to hear, they'll love you. Tell them the truth, and they'll hate you. Calling a spade a spade does not, in any way, lessen the accomplishments of said spade. And by asking for opinions, don't expect to get anything less than what you ask for.
All: I highly suggest Damon Knight's CREATING SHORT FICTION. He talks about the four stages of a writer (briefly): 1) Narcissistic 2) Trivial 3) Overcoming Technical Issues and 4) Professional. It speaks to me as much about the growth of a person as it does about the growth of a writer.
L.
Heather: Yes, your friend the writer is an amateur. Anyone who's not a professional is an amateur, including me. There is a vast difference between being an amateur, and writing in an amateurish manner. Also, it's arrogantly amateurish to brag about one's publication and post an excerpt before one has even proofed one's manuscript. That's actually sort of rude.
I'm not sure why you're lashing out at the people on this board. What did you expect? Do *you* really think his writing is GOOD? Because, I'm sorry, it's not. In fact, it's aggressive in its badness.
I have to agree with Barney: if you want to learn about how to write horror, read good horror writers. Imitation is the best way to pick up on style and effective techniques. Do you want to talk about who good horror novelists are and have us discuss their styles? That I would be willing to do. Arguing about your Moonlighter friend is just barking up the wrong tree. All you're going to learn from that guy is to get a good editor.
Bermanator
Heather,
I think most of the folks on the board put in time to review Moonlighter's work and took the time to respond. Yeah, we made light of a few things based on the idea that he was "published" which I maintain - regardless of vanity or sponsored printing - establishes a higher standard. I know, I've said that a hundred times, but it is KEY here.
He says on the 22nd: "Shivers will be available for order online in probably...... mid August. You will be able to order it through Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com, Books-A-Million, etc.... Any of the big chain bookstores should be able to get it. Should you have any trouble let me know and I can give you the ISBN to simplify the process of finding it."
I'd say he's beyond vanity press, or he's got a LOT of $$$$ to spare.
If, as he says, "'Shivers' will be running through the veins of readers everywhere before you know it !" then a bunch of avid readers, writers and consumers of mass media have even more reason to be critical.
That space on the bookshelf could have gone to Loftus, or Berman, or you, or me, or even Ellison. I'd be resentful of any self-proclaimed author who proudly displays work like the sample we reviewed.
I also think he's full of donkey-squirts. But that's just my personal opinion.
So it is no longer a question of "Look at this kid's writing. Let's make him better." If he really is going to be published, he can expect MUCH MUCH more of this kind of criticism once someone plunks down their buckage on his work.
I appreciate you championing and wanting to nurture this guy, but perhaps the money he's spending on immortalizing his stillbirth would be better spent on a few writing classes and some choice books to read.
Heather - Don't you think you're getting a bit worked up over nothing? Seriously... quoting from your first mention (I think, I only went back 200 messages) of Moonlighter:
"Go dig him up and tell me what you think of his writing."
Well, folks did and you got lots of responses. Quite a few folks told you what they thought of his writing, in no uncertain terms. YOU ASKED. Don't get all uppity because people gave you responses you didn't like; after all, it seems like you've been here for a long time, so you should KNOW the type of response you'll get when you ask for a critique of writing. It's gonna be harsh, no matter what. Not due to envy of some kid slapping down a thou to be able to say his writing got published, but because folks on here appreciate a good writer and the art of putting a good story together. Only harsh critics and honest opinions can make a writer better. Encouragement, too, of course, but most of all critiques. I hardly think anyone here is envious or jealous of Moonlighter.
I liked the analogy someone made about the wooden chair. I think we've all got our opinions on the guy (ranging from your persistence to give him a thumbs up for his stick-to-itiveness to Professor Tinglebum's review). Call names, rant and rave, but seriously - everyone's told you what you wanted to know in various ways. Seems to me it's time to move on?
Just my opinion, of course.
--Zoe Rose
Finder: To quote J. Michael Straczynski (whose last name I've probably just mangled), who was himself quoting Goethe, "Be bold, and powerful forces will come to your aid." Although I'd guess the original was in German...and I'd guess in this case the powerful force was yourself.
Cheers, Jon
I feel joyful about my ability to write. It's a brand of air I never thought I'd find. I'm not afraid to learn from anyone, great or small. It's not about competition. It's not about envy. Do you understand what that's about?
Probably not.
You guys amaze me.
Well, not really. Some of your (and I said SOME of you, not all) response patterns are pretty standard. You've got a nice set of filters, too, when it comes to interpreting what you THINK was asked. And killing the messenger, not the message. (You know who you are. Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's the problem. It's such an auto-reflex, you don't even notice it. Such busy little beavers you are. So much to scorn, so little time.)
The one thing I DO realize is I don't envy any one of you. And I don't think much more can be learned from you. Unless, I just want to give up and cut my proverbial wrists, like it appears SOME of you have done. Gawd, yer afraid of some shitkicking kid who's simply put some of his OWN money into promoting himself--I DIDN'T SAY any COMPANY believed in him. All that COMPANY is eager to do is take his money--and managed to acquire a following with his shitty little prose? FOR SHAME!
What a way to view the world. They're getting one UP on me ma, you say or you convince yourself--so I should KICK EM IN THE SHINS. That'll make it better.
No it won't. It just continues to alienate people who really have no reason not to like you. But that's cool, there are enough of you here; you can keep each other company in your hmmm..despair? Envy? I don't know anymore and I really don't care.
I didn't think asking anyone for specific reasons as to what is right or wrong with someone else's writing (so I can learn from it) was an invitation to question MY skill--as one person mentioned.
If you had spent one IOTA of the energy you spent making clever comments about this guy versus giving me specific reasons why you did or didn't like his stuff, I'd have gotten some useful instruction of what writing horror is about.
But no, it's so much easy to make jokes, isn't it? Or tell me how great some other writer is and that I should read some other writer. (Ah DUH. I've been reading plenty, you asshole.)
Pile on the rabbit. Especially if he/she is doing something (at the moment--who knows how quickly tables can turn?) that's seem beyond your reach.
Oh? Writing a novel and walking into a quick copy/vanity publisher and slapping down a few thou is beyond your reach?
You are what you think you are. And on grit alone, I'd buy into this young fellow's ability compared to your yuk yuk jokes about his flaws.
His biggest flaw--in your eyes, I think--is he's DOING something. He's not sitting around cleverly criticizing his mates.
And Barney, my friend, to continually remind me to read other writers or to tell me that this person (or any person I offer up for comment) is not as good as Harlan Ellison, wastes my time. I have a pretty good idea of what good writers are about but I'm not afraid to look at bad ones and try to figure out what's bad.
But I wouldn't just tell them they are bad ("Oh, I HATE THIS!") and walk away. The first thing I would wonder was hmm..is that all he can tell me? I wonder why he said that? Could he be jealous? Nah.. why would someone be jealous of my skills? _I_ know I have things to learn. But a critique that spins nothing but a web of how clever the critiquer is at lambasting someone, is a waste of time, in my view.
And pretty much shows me what the critiquer is made of.
ALL - You help me see and recognize a part of me that I've always denied myself. It's an unusual feeling, but there's someone different in the mirror when I look. His jaw is a little more squared off. And he knows he's capable of walking the walk now.
And women can see him, too. hehehehehehe
CINDY - If you want another set of eyes on your screenplay, feel free to abuse the e-mail address above. I've got two shorts I'm doing pre-production on for Memorial Day weekend filming in New York, but between shooting schedules and casting, I'd love to take a read.
HARLAN - Goofus? I had Highlights for Children flashbacks. But thank you none the less, a'cause you'se right. Or as the caterpillar said upon exiting the chrysalis, "Holy shit - I've got WINGS!!!"
BENJAMIN - My take: Tyrone figured he'd laid the smackdown on his victim and could simply walk away. I don't think he was counting on apathy. I think he was counting steps to the door in his head and, as team Python would have said, was demonstrating How Not To Be Seen.
TODD - I feel your Yankee pain. Displaced to the Hell of Washington, I only have access to pinstripes when they're playing the O's or on a national feed. And I pine for the good old days in Catskill, NY, curled up in front of WPIX, listening to Phil Rizzuto emote "Holy cow, White - that huckleberry got all of that one!", before greed destroyed broadcasting, too.
ROB - The Lakers - they're from out on the coast somewhere, ain't they?
BARNEY - I'm always up for a road trip - EXCEPT I'm headed in the opposite direction the weekend of the 11th, which is a shame, because I'd love to spend a little time in the glow of Kevin Smith. And splitting a pitcher and comparing notes over grub (or grubs, even - I get less particular every day) would be the bomb. Alas, I'm committed in the prior sense. Mayhaps next time.
Ahh Barney, bringin' back the ole memories of dealer rooms and Q&A sessions, overpriced toys and comics that drop $10 in value if you so much as expose them to an instant of flourescent light.
I'm looking forward to WizardWorld East. Having heard great things about the Chicago version and with the HUGE list of guests, it will be a great time to network and learn as well as consume mass quantities...er, of merchandise. Boozles optional.
As far as Harrisburg goes, we've only had a handful of genre conventions. Most recently there have been hastily-organized comics conventions with guests like one of the guys who played Superboy on TV. $15 bucks, a dealer room the size of a minivan filled with case boxes you couldn't look through without blocking the narrow aisle for the other fifty guests. :)
One of the best genre cons in the area was over 10 years ago. John DeLancie was the guest. He was trying to talk about things beyond Trek and the locals were having none of it. He mentioned this new project he was working on with Leonard Nimoy. At the time there wasn't even a name for it, but a few Trek actors were going to perform classic stories...maybe live maybe for CD...but he was really excited. It was very cool to hear about Alien Voices at its genesis. Of course, Trekkers didn't want to hear anything about it when the subject matter wasn't to do with the Enterprise.
I wish I had the stone back then to approach the guy to talk more about it as he mingled with the local media. I would have loved to talk more about the Golden Age of Radio and classic horror and SF stories. I got the impression he would have enjoyed the chance to talk more on the subject, too.
I _say_ appears to... (grumble)
FINDER: Thank you. From both of us. Really. You done real good.
Don't stop.
M & A
Cindy - you can also direct people to this link:
http://www.finaldraft.com/downloads/demos.html
where it appears they can download a copy of Final Draft Viewer. (I saw appears to, because I am heading to work right now, and I don't have time to test it out.)
Cindy - Final Draft
Cindy, you don't need to re-type your Final Draft documents onto Microsoft Word. Just go to "Save as" and change the format from Final Draft file to Rich Text Format. If you have Final Draft 6.0, there is a function to save the file as a PDF (for reading with Adobe Acrobat).
Sorry, I won't be able to read your script as I keep quite busy and am usually buried in paperwork. Lynn would be more than happy to tell you about how long I kept her waiting to read her short story! Abuse from her via MSN Messenger finally convinced me to move my arse and finally read the few pages she sent ;-)
Hope it goes well.
FAQ
HEY BARNEY,
Sorry about the delay. I'm sending the screenplay. I normally use Final Draft software so it fixes typos and puts everything in proper format. UnFORTUNATELY it won't translate across the net unless the recipient has the Final Draft Reader.
So I am hurriedly retyping it in rtf so I can share it with any of y'all that want to see it. I appreciate you so much, the more input I get the more likely I'll be to hit the target in the middle.
Sooo I'll finish typing tomorrow and shoot it right over to you.
Meantime you have my
eternal gratitude.
Cindy
Barney...
I'll be at the Convention all geeked out for the Kevin Smith love-fest.
A starter set of things Unca Harlan? Oh, easy: "The Essential Ellison, 50 years (and counting)".
Come on: Let's all be literary johns, and get the kiddos hooked on reading.
It's better than drugs.
Until next time. . .
"cyberinseminate"
Lynn,
Now there is a word to conjure with. It's as though Bruce Sterling and the ghost of H.P. Lovecraft are conspiring to make stuff up to give me the whim-whams.
*** Hey Gang *** It looks as though I am going to go to a convention that is utterly non-Ellison related. This is only remarkable because outside of my incarnation as a comic dealer I haven't been to a convention that didn't feature Harlan since, umm - holy crap! - 1979. As per usual I will not know how to act. The reason I mention this is that it's the Wizard World East Con in Philly May 10 - 12th. I know a few regulars and perhaps some lurkers are in driving distance of that con so if anybody wants to say hi or pick a fight or throw a pie in my face or challenge me to a duel or split some local grub and a pitcher of Yuengling this would be your chance. It's a one day road trip with a couple of buddies and since most of the "pros" are now younger than me [cripes, when did that happen?] I don't know if I'll be able to kill 8 hours in a giant dealers room the way I used to. Everybody has my e-mail. Get in touch if you're into making plans and I'll see what I can accomodate.
Since I mentioned the '79 convention - here is the deal. I saw Harlan at a MonCon in 1978. Had one of those life altering good times. Decided to go back the following year assuming ALL conventions were that fun. Hey, I was 18. What the hell did I know. I can hear the voice of Harlan as AM shouting into the cyberdiorama "about as much as you do now kiddo!!".
I won't say who the guest was in '79 because she is probably a very nice person and I mean her no ill will but the experiance was a wee bit different. Like the difference between walking into a bar on a Saturday in Georgetown and being asked to officiate a wet t-shirt contest and ending up going home with the winner and the first two runners-up and walking into a bar in Soho on a Tuesday afternoon when your too early for happy hour. Dull. Really dull. Tumbleweed time. So not since 1979 have I willingly gone to a Harlan-lite convention.
- Barney
Jon,
Right-o-roonie.
I was thinking: for next Mother's Day we all ought to treat our moms to a viewing of Psycho. The movie has more uses than I once considered.
A toast to stability.
Alex-
How about "Essential Ellison" and, if they still have them, "Repent, Harlequin" or a tape of "Prince Myshkin"?
Hey, folks, Harlan's battle with my former employer gets news coverage in the new issue of THE WEEK. It's listed as ELLISON AND GOLIATH on page 8. No picture, but a good write-up, and quotes that will bring Harlan's voice into your ears. It's good to see the media are finally paying some attention--if for all the wrong reasons.
On another Ellisonian note: I recently got together with an old college roomie whom I hadn't seen in 20 years. His son is about to graduate high school, and, lo and behold, the kid's an Ellison fan. So I figure I'll buy him an autographed book from HERC. But which one? I can't decide. I'm open to suggestions.
Finally--anyone else going to the BEA this year?
--Alex
E-nough problems, indeed. I thought for sure you were going to let me have it for the bad pun.
Where do I find this stuff? In my mail box, that's where. People send this crap to me. I suppose in this case, it's better than getting e-knocked up.
Like I don't have e-nough problems as it is.
L.
Lynn, where do you find this stuff? Is this an extension of those "virtual pet" toys that were being sold a few years ago? Or just another example of those who want the rewards without having to do any of the labor?
Just when you though the Web couldn't possibly get more useless:
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20020327sam0327p1.asp
L.
Rob: I should have written "writer or interviewer discussing the film Psycho" to be clearer, as I wasn't actually referring to the writer of the screenplay (Stefano) but articles and pieces I've seen about the movie.
Cheers, Jon
Jon,
On Psycho and Ed Gein:
Actually, Stefano - the film's writer (if I understood your reference) - knew nothing of the Gein case at the time; I'm not sure if Hitchcock did. I believe it was just that he had been intrigued by Bloch's basic premise.
Bloch, of course, DID base the book on Gein.
Zoë: I think you might be overthinking the plumbing here. Source material is source material – movie, book, real life experience, dream messaging. Whether that material is, in turn, based on something else is only a citation consideration, as pointed out by Helz, and others more indirectly.
If you saw only the movie – the movie is your source. If you've read the book, too – they're both separate sources – one just happens to be based on the other. If you lived through the events of the book then that, too, is separate "source material". (But then my question would be: if you lived through it, why the hell did you read the inadequate book and watch the downright crappy movie, because the actor they got to play "the bad guy" was waaaaaay too good looking, and everything seemed so much cleaner than you remembered...)
For academic purposes, you would need to point to an independant document of some sort, so I suppose dream messaging wouldn't be particularly useful there, either.
Depending on the "seriousness" of the your paper/research, obviously, material closer to original is "better", but each are separate "sources".
Jay,
Jesus, sorry about that. I meant to respond yesterday and then the analog world got in the way. No, I think it's hilarious! Bizzare, drunken as hell and just plain wrong, but hilarious!
Joseph
All you damned Yankees here: does anyone care at all that the Lakers are on the edge of a potential three-peat in the championship; that they lead Portland despite Kobe only shooting 10 of 28; or that Stockton and Malone are still in the race?
Ben,
I think MOST people - least ways those I know (whatever their ages I might add) - know Psycho is from Bloch's novel. What they don't know is the necessity for the changes to make the tale filmable: the novel opens with Norman having a dialogue with his "mother" and there's no way to shoot it unless you want to reveal his situation right away and show he's talking to a corpse. Norman himself was much different, much older and unlikeable. The complexity of character transfer (switching the sympathy for Marion to Norman half way through the film) left an open blue print for Hitchcock and Joe Stefano who ingeniously worked out the inherent problems, the biggest of which hung on the question of a character audiences could care about. Themes like personal traps and the lure of madness when we're desperate were beautifully constructed.
I like Bloch; but this was one of those books using the subjective power that only a book can manipulate. It couldn't survive its form translated as a movie.
Little Washu: _Psycho_-weirdness also involves instances in which the writer or interviewer mentions the Ed Gein case as inspiring the Hitchcock movie _without_ mentioning Bloch's novel.
Jon
Hey Joseph!
Am I to assume your silence means you thought the script sucked?
(big grins)
Jay
Have more time than I thought...
Zoe dot-dot: The reason the book that has been adapted into a movie isn't always the source material is because of what I said before about deviating from the book. If you are going to use something, a quote, that has an actor's distinct inflection, a screenwriter's own touch, then you're using the film. The credit to the book is an easy way to allow others to know there's a book out there but isn't NEEDED. I'd probably put it only because that was the basis for the movie and some sort of credit should be given to the book's author. I know it sounds contradictory, even to me, but if you're using the film adaptation ("Life is like a box of chocolates..."), then that's how I'd do it. Otherwise, go to the book ("Life ain't no box of chocolates" or something like that--I can't find my copy of Winston Groom's novel). That's what I meant. I'm probably wrong but that's my crazy thinking.
I blame the lull at work for continuing to read this board and posting. At home, it's always something: washing dishes, taking care of baby, cleaning the toilets, taking care of baby, cutting the grass, taking care of baby, finishing the monstrosity of a bitch of a half-assed deck out back, and, finally, taking care of baby.
Celluloid treatment? "House of Leaves"? Pshaw. An exercise in fiction (though, come to think of it, an example of something starting on the web and evolving into a by God published book that's made some money). The movie that NEEDS to be made from a book is Ellroy's "The Big Nowhere". Now, that's a fuckin' book that'll do well on the big white tablecloth on the wall. A few years ago, I was thinking that Jonny Depp would be Danny, Mickey Rourke would be Buzz, and the DA played by a Kevin Costner-type. Dudley Smith would, of course, be played by Brian Dennehy.
Melissa: Thanks for the correction, and the book is on my to-read list...
That's pretty much the point of talking about books vs. movies, especially biographical films based on a written biography. What if there were to be a film biography of the Kennedys based on Doris Kearns Goodwin's book? Would one cite the film, the book or the unattributed source material that got plagiarized into the book?
Or for a more historic example, consider the three different TV movies about the "Long Island Lolita" case. As I recall vaguely, one was based on Amy Fisher's story, one was pro-Buttafuoco, and the third started with news reports and court transcripts and extrapolated the rest. Which would a person look to for the "facts" of the case, or must one slog through all three to get a _Rashomon_ style perspective?
Bejamin: You are correct about PSYCHO. On the DVD of the Hitchcock-directed version they mention the book a lot at the beginning, but I would've loved to see more about Bloch and the book. Hell, I'd like to be able to see more of anything about Bloch, I've bought all the novels of his I can in the area bookstores. Except the adaptation of TWILIGHT ZONE THE MOVIE. I haven't bought that. Yet.
Zoe: I'm not ignoring you. I don't have time to post. Do you mind if I e-mail and answer at some point? Let me know either here or by e-mail.
Bill
Speaking of Mario Puzo's GODFATHER and films that overshadow their literary counterparts, does anyone even REMEMBER that PSYCHO was based on a book by Robert Bloch?
And on the subject of books that should've been converted into movies aeons ago, Mark Z. Danielewski's HOUSE OF LEAVES is screaming for the celluloid treatment. True, the plot and the characters would have to go under a major overhaul to work on film, but isn't that what book-to-films are ultimately about?
Helz:
Actually, the book "A Beautiful Mind" deals far more extensively with Nash's fathering of a child out of wedlock, and his realtionship with the mother, than the film. It also confronts Nash's experiments with homosexuality much more directly, and with a distanced, more critical eye.
Of the film and the movie, based on my experiences dealing with Scotty's brother's struggles with schizophrenia, I would state that Sylvia Nasar's biography is a far more accurate representation of a schizophrenic's life, and of the disease and its onset. Ron Howard, in my opinion, sterilized the tale to a degree where it seemed like the perennial "man overcoming difficulty" story, told with all the impact of a thrown marshmallow. You don't just think your way out of serious mental illness, as the film suggests.
If you haven't read Nasar's book, please do. I found it excellent.
Love to All, Melissa
Source Material Debate:
Didn't we all go through this with "A Beautiful Mind" just last month? How Ron Howard's film took so many liberties with Sylvia Nasr's book, expressing John Nash's mental illness as an actual plotline with actual characters, etc...then of course there were all the whispers that the book itself took liberties with Nash's life story, deemphasizing his out-of-wedlock child, the allegations of homosexuality, and so on.
Who to believe? Who to trust? Most of all, who to cite in an academic paper?
Rule of Thumb -- when a film or television production uses the term "based on real events," it's not going to be a trustworthy, journalistic account (but the broad facts are more or less right). If it's "inspired by real events," assume it's pure fiction...
I'd say, look it up in Strunk & White, the Associated Press Stylebook, and the APA Guidelines for academic citations (American Psychiatric Association, which for some reason is the standard format for academic papers). Don't trust our opinions, even our informed opinions.
Zoe Rose: I'm really not getting the "making real" point as some sort of universal guide to film adaptation. One example might be the Godfather movies. The first two films generally (and I agree with this assessment) get cited as being crowning achievements in film and fight it out with _Citizen Kane_ whenever 'Greatest American Movie Ever' lists get bandied about. The Puzo novel was a best-seller and a perfectly fine read, but I've never heard or read anyone who suggested that it should be jockeying for position with _Ulysses_ or _Clarissa_ for best novel ever honours, and if I did read or hear that, I'd expect to later find that that observer had been either carted off to the cuckoohouse or hired by USA Today to review books. And you can certainly come up with examples from the other parts of the adaptation spectrum -- movies that fail miserably despite original texts that succeed wonderfully; perfectly serviceable adaptations that sit there stolidly and leave the mind once they've been viewed; and so on, and so forth. Obviously the original work may supply anything from the complete intellectual and structural architecture of the film to an outline for wherever the film team's going, good, bad or indifferent. If that's what you mean by 'idea,' then no argument -- but not every 'idea' (which you may also be using as a catchall term for everything from images to characterization to plot) in the first two Godfather films has its origin in Puzo's text. The original work will hopefully be respected in the creation of the film, and the original work's creator(s) acknowledged and reimbursed. But _Ran_ and Peter Brooks's _King Lear_ do pretty different things with the same original text.
Cheers, Jon
Joseph: Scotty's not too perturbed. In fact, the man balmes me for his failure so far. I'll admit to a couple of screwups in maintaining his lineup, having worked as his GM 'til he can finally get back to a resonable schedule, but he's made more mistakes than me. So I've told him, it's your funeral; you dig the grave from now on.
Actually, he's having a good time with it, it's been a good diversion from endless work; league commitees screaming that they want their teams to get the best slots for playoff games, having to dig up officials to referee (most times meaning he'll wind up doing it himself), seeing to regular maintenance of the facility. He's bearing it well, and hopes all is well with all.
Love to All, Melissa
Melissa,
Aw, Scotty's just annoyed that he's getting his butt whipped at the moment. I'm sure it'll turn around and I'll have my time in the dumps.
As for the flirting, that's just part of my Irish charm.....
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. White Sox! First place! Let the adventure again!
Finder, whose post I too had to scroll back to Find:
You may be a "shrinking violet" - with a mental etching rendered by acid on glass - but you do bloom when the moment counts. Way to go. The Tick himself couldn't have done a better job.
Good morning, all. Just a quick one, whilst waiting on a firing to cool.
Faisal: Accept my warm regards for your act, and a thank you. It would be nice if people could be a bit more appreciative to those who act on their behalf; sadly, it doesn't always work out that way. Here's a thanks and a kiss. Don't worry, Scotty won't mind.
Joseph: On the other hand, Scotty grumbles that first you're taking over the league he'd helped to build, now you're hitting on his wife. As the old man is want to say, "I'm gonna give somebody's noggin a floggin'!"
Todd; I guess the Vatican's stance on child molestation is that anything worth doing is worth doing well...
Mr. Ellison: I looked at the list for sale here, but there doesn't seem to be anything Scotty wants. Do you have any first editions in slipcases, other than the ones listed (the husband has those)? If not, I hope all is well between us.
Cookie: What's the word on the CD? Any closer to fruition? We here have money in hand.
Well, that's it from here. Oh yes, Cindy, in regards for "Billy, Don't Be A Hero", Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods, the Osmonds, and all other noxious forms of bubblegum rock that seemed so pervasive in the early seventies, I carry the shame of having been a Bay City Rollers fan...
Scotty won't let me live it down.
Love to All, Melissa
Zöe: If fiction, then my argument is the same. The book is the true source as that's the first hand account, as it were. So, I suppose I agree with you and not your dad. The movie is just Franklin's bastard son, not the original Ben F.
Good morning, all!
FAQ- It sounds weird, but apparently I was born with them and nobody noticed, somehow. What can I say? I'm a freak. All I know is that one day as I was heading to gymnastics in my leotard, I noticed a bump where a bump shouldn't be. Of course, at the time I freaked out because I thought I was turning into a boy, but... c'mon. I was /twelve/. We were all dumb once. Hope your father recovers quickly, anyhow.
The Source Material Debate
Justin - After rereading your posted answer to my question, I realized that maybe you and I were saying the same thing, even though you say you were agreeing with my dad. You say in your post,
"Books and films are definitely separate entities, but nobody should watch a movie and confuse that with learning real history or reading an actual book..."
So you're saying that in order to get the full meaning/lesson/whatever, you'd have to read the book. So doesn't that make the book the source material?
Bill- I'm going to send the same kind of argument your way. You said at the end of your post,
"I think a film adaptation can be it's own source, but I'd mention, even if it's just in passing or in a footnote, the novel/story/play it came from."
See, you said 'it came from' so doesn't that make the book the source material?
John Stover - But if you could watch the movie and get the general overall idea for the book... I mean, that would lead viewers to believe that the movie was based on the book, yes? Leading to *drumroll* the book being the original content and birthplace of the idea that the movie subsequently tried to visualize and make more real. Right?
Charlie of St. Pete - Agreed, insofar as your analogy of going to the source if the book was based on reality. How about fiction, though? Just as an example, "Boy and His Dog" was based on (not written! I didn't say written!) HE's novelette, which would be the source material, to my way of thinking.
An interesting debate. Part of it is a semantics problem, as someone stated, but I'm still not convinced.
--Zoe Rose
Finder -- good work. Your tale has all the classic elements of instinctive heroism. If you ask them, most Medal of Honor winners would say that they really weren't fully aware of what they were doing, and if they had stopped to think, they never would have done it (the rational soldier stays in his damn fighting position and waits for backup, keeps his head down when the bullets are flying and falls back when told).
Nobody mentioned "My Hero" by Foo Fighters (from The Colour and the Shape, 1997), so I thought I'd throw that in.
Faisal,
Thank you!
I will look there too.
Meantime, want to read something reeeeeeeeeeeeally scary?
:)
I'd love to have your take on my little yarn. I figure the more feedback I get from diverse people the more likely I will be to get the job done correctly.
Just holler,
Cindy
Superb Job, Finder!
Regarding your post-incident worries: I think these are calls that are impossible to make, either during or after the rush of circumstances. If the guy had been armed, I don't think he would have run -- not from you, anyway -- and besides, all the security and FBI that came down on him a moment later would have had him cornered and disarmed. The important thing was that you "carried the message," in a sense, from Melanie to the larger world.
Too often, we watch something bad happen and don't step up to the plate because we're afraid of what MIGHT happen. But my experience has been that bad things happen to us when we least expect them, out of the blue, when there really hasn't been any way to prevent them (I got knifed in the chest when all I had done was walk through a bad neighborhood at the wrong time of day and stopped long enough to tell a guy that no, I don't have a cigarette because I don't smoke) ... not when we're racing to meet them.
And widening the circle of attention, by yelling and running and showing bystanders that something out of the ordinary is going on here, maybe I could use some help, is probably the last thing a malfeasor wants. It's usually a good response because you'll often get the help.
And Harlan's right. You're a hero for a day, and we're all very proud of you.
Zoe- Hernia's when you were 12!!! I hope they got your appendix out just to make it worthwhile. As to silly movies, thanks for the advice but my father has no interest in films or television... kind of strange considering what I do for a living but...
Finder - Yeah accept the applause. Years ago, when my parents were visiting a neighbour, I once grabbed his eighteen month old grandson off the road and prevented him being mowed down from a speeding motorist. Did I get any thanks? Did I fuck. The old fart still doesn't recognise me, let alone remembers the incident. Maybe one day, I will be the subject of an arty Volvo advert with M People banshee wailing 'Seeeaaarch four the heeeroooo inshide youuu' self', who knows? Just take what you get.
Chuck - I remember the Really strange picture show. It was presented by Jonathan Ross and produced by his Channel X company for Channel 4. Other participants were George Romero, Alejandro Jodorwosky and David Lynch.
Cindy - Also check out www.moviebytes.com for script competitions. The vast majority of them will only give a pittance for a hefty application fee so be careful. I always go for the ones with a bit of history behind them (i.e. Nicholl, Chesterfield, etc.)
Best.
FAQ
FAQ
This morning, on CNN.com, the headline reads: VATICAN CONFERENCE TO ISSUE SEX ABUSE GUIDELINES.
O.k., once I confirmed that I had not accidently logged into The Onion, and once I finished laughing at the thought of the hunched over pope handing over a manual with diagrams for those priests who have not yet mastered the art of child molestation, I had to wonder: who is approving this headline for the #1 internet news outlet in the country?????
-TODD
Cindy: I have not received any screenplay pages. But I do filter my Xanadu mailbox pretty aggressively, so I might have trashed it (sorry, if that's the case) - I have emailed you from a different account - try sending it there.
Xan
Hey all
If I may de-lurk momentarily, I'd just like to add my appreciation to Finder's story - magnificent, bravo sir, do as Mr. Ellison says and embrace it. A wonderful tale.
And "Way to get arrested, dumbass" had me laughing out loud.
Best regards
Jes
When I noticed how everyone on the board were heaping praise on Finder like there was no tomorrow, I knew I had missed something that I shouldn't have and scrolled back in the archives. Congrats, Finder. Everybody else has pretty much vocalized whatever I'm feeling about your tale.
I actually find it somewhat disturbing how Tyrone WALKED towards the exit rather than fleeing at top speed. Why is that? Was he just trying to draw as little attention to himself as possible to make good his escape? Or had Tyrone just adapted to how indifferent people usually are to acts of violation and violence? WHIMPER OF WHIPPED DOGS, indeed.
Quick hits:
FINDER: A sincere and austere, "Thank you." Hero or no, you stood up. And that's what's needed today.
You know, a great man once said: "... when you're down and out, and everybody thinks you're finished, that's the time to stand up on your own two feet and shout, 'Who do you have to fuck to get a break in this town?!?'"
(Um, okay; so that was from Mel Brooks' musical version of THE PRODUCERS, but still ...)
COOKIE: I swear, I REALLY want to sing with you, just for kicks, sometime.
Barney--
Thanks for the props (and the listen!). Believe me, I took your mere *mention* of widdle ol' me to be a positive stroke. Mmmmm.....!
Thanks.
FINDER: I scrolled back after HE's post and found your story. Like Lynn said: YOU ROCK.
Had you been shot or knifed and killed, you would be a martyr in the cause of good against evil. Because it wasn't your fate to die for this justice you helped to facilitate, you are a mere hero. Congratulations and thanks. I don't need "celebrity" heroes. I just need to know that there are decent, brave people like you.
I admire you and hope that I would be as savvy and active in a similar situation. Guess you'll never know until it happens.
I just can't heap enough benifecent blessings upon you and all you hold dear. Blessings, blessings; more blessings and heaps of good ol' fashioned, inexplicable luck to you!!!!!
Finder,
GodDAMN, but you got steel ones. I'm glad you're okay, and I agree with Unca Harlan: don't knock it, don't diminish it. Anything that diminishes the malevolent god of WHIMPER OF WHIPPED DOGS is more than okay in my book.
We are a feisty and querulous bunch, but this group is chock-a-block with great folks.
As for the early films of Sam Raimi, I remember that Discovery Channel had a series called THE REALLY STRANGE PICTURE SHOW. I think it was called that. I'm pretty sure it had "strange", "picture", and "show" in the title. There was an episode devoted to Raimi and his growth as a filmmaker, including the magnetic sound 8mm movies he, Bruce Campbell and others made. Think Three Stooges with gore. You can see a lot of that in the Evil Dead movies.
Clips from the 8mm "WOODS" movie were also shown. They had a two by four with a camera rigged on it to get the low-to-the-ground steadycam effect. They called it "shakey cam". The 8mm film was used to get investors to fund EVIL DEAD. So, it impressed someone.
Chuck
Cindy~ Original Cindy is Max's (Jessica Alba's) lesbian sidekick. She is just as kick ass as Max is, in her own right. Then again, I haven't watched it since the first season ended. After that, it went really weird.
L.
Cindy?
Dark Angel teleplay? Huh? Did I sleep through something? You've written one? May I?
This has Jessica Alba? Gosh I wish I were younger so my own lusts wouldn't seem so lecherous. :)
Zöe: I don’t accept the premise how you are defining source material. The best source is a first hand account. An author’s account is usually a second hand re-telling of an event, unless the author was the participant. Over the past few years I’ve interviewed several WWII veterans and IMO Tom Brokaw is wrong calling those WWII vets the “Greatest Generation.” By giving them such an appellation dismisses all past, present, future generations as less great. Many were young men draftees who were sent into battle, trained others to fly planes, repaired vehicles and airstrips, guarded the coastline in blimps, etc. I know they are not the only generation throughout history who would accomplish such things. Want to learn about the Holocaust—books and movies may provide a nice foundation; however, go talk to survivors; go to a concentration camp. I did. Went to Dachau. The scariest place I ever set foot. The barracks were gone, but the ovens weren’t and the memories still lingered. That’s source material.
Bill!
Kiss, kiss!
Couldn't help myself.. I only regret that I forgot the instrumental hot licks between the lines.
As in:
Beeeleh don't be a heeroh don't be a fool with
yer lie ie ief. ..
Nyair Nynair Nynair Nynair nuh nuh nyair,
Billeh don't be a heeeroh etc.
Thank you for affording me the opportunity to add that. It really seemed naked and counterfeit without it.
When I re-read the post I realized my oversight and was certain I'd be judged as some sort of faux retro music guru.
Again, you are sweet to acknowledge me.. I won't forget!
:)
Cindy
Lynn!
I'd be most honored if you would read my screenplay. I need all the input I can get right now. I'm fixin' to enter it in the Austin Film Festival's screenplay competition ALSO I am hoping for another round of Project Greenlight.
Tell me about the Dark Angel character. All I know is my son is in lust with the girl that plays her.
:)
Thanks again so much for reading, I appreciate it more than you know.
Cindy
Finder: "Way to get arrested, dumbass!"
Hell, I thought I was the only one who yells that.
Congrats for having the balls most wish they had. Sitting back and thinking about what could have happened doesn't do you any good. The act was a good one. That's all you need.
Tony
Zoe: Sounds more like a semantics problem than anything else -- the novel (or stage play or comic or opera) is the source material, but the movie's still a different text. They're not really incompatible ideas. Watching _The French Lieutenant's Woman_ in lieu of reading the novel for an exam involving the novel is going to really bugger your answers, but that's a different problem.
Jon
Bill & Justin - What you say is true... but doesn't the fact that if the book hadn't been written, the movie wouldn't have ever been made, have some effect on the discussion? I mean, I can see where a movie can garner some different interpretations, involve some unique 'action' or 'lines', but... I'm not quite sure how to word what I'm thinking. It seems to me 'source material' means original intent/direction/beginning structure, kinda, and the movies based off books owe their origins to the books themselves.
Does that make sense, or am I stating something obvious and defining 'source material' wrong, do you think?
--Zoë Rose
Zoe dot dot: I'm with your pops. Movies can be used as source material. Still, if you're going to use a film as such then a mention of the inspiration for the flick should figure prominently somewhere in the piece. The problem is that your average uncultured Joe will watch, say, CIDER HOUSE RULES, and assume it's the same as the book, that he knows everything he needs to know about the book, and that he certainly doesn't need to sit down and actually READ the thing now. Or he'll watch SCHINDLER'S LIST, and try to come off as though he suddenly knows everything about the Holocaust. Books and films are definitely separate entities, but nobody should watch a movie and confuse that with learning real history or reading an actual book, which happens more often than not, much to the supreme annoyance of Harlan Ellisons and college professors at the Universtiy of Arizona.
Zoe:
I think it depends on the movie but, in lots of cases, they could be their own source material simply because they are a different medium. A movie has to have its own internal logic that might not coincide with the novel's to tell the same story. Take Jack Nicholson's "Heeeerrre's Johnny!" from THE SHINING. That is purely from the screenplay by Stanley Kubrick and Diane Johnson (unless it was an improvisation on Nicholson's part), but never appears in Stephen King's novel. However, if I were to use that line as a source, I would mention it was from the movie adapted from King's novel, just to cover all ground. Please, fill in your own scene with authors if you wish. So, yeah, I think a film adaptation can be it's own source, but I'd mention, even if it's just in passing or in a footnote, the novel/story/play it came from.
Cindy: There's always one...
Bill
Finder: Awesome! Guys like you date ladies with names like Lois Lane and Vicky Vale, brutha.
I read "The Universe According to Robert Blake" when I was 15 or so, and ended up writing a paper about it in school. Having spent lots of time in schools were I was in a pretty small minority, I wasn't exactly a total stranger to racism (or "reverse racism" as it's called), but the story really packed a huge punch for me. It dealt with the subject of racism more effectively than in anything I'd ever read up to that point. You really FEEL it in your bones. It definitely heightened my appreciation for a lot of the racial texts I read subsequently. It's a very powerful story and worth reading, so check it out. It's in Edgeworks vol. 1.
Peace out.
J
Frank, tell your 'unfair money advantage' whiny tales to the Dodgers. Tell them to Baltimore who just two years ago had a humongous payroll and finished just inches above the Devil Rays. Tell it to the Mets who also live in NY and can spend as much as they choose to spend. And the Mariners owned by a very rich corporation who can go to town on payroll whenever they choose. Or to Cleveland and their looooong streak of sellouts at the Jacob that was just ended late last year. And to the Cubs who are owned by a corporation that can easily spend the money...if they choose. Crying about the Yankee payroll is quite the cliche when most teams in baseball have the revenue to spend but choose not to.....or spend it poorly like the Dodgers do year after year after year.
Sure, there are those small market teams that don't have the money backing.....but if you count them up, and then count up the teams that have the money and don't spend it, or spend it poorly, I would hardly say that the Yankees have an unfair advantage. I root for the Expos and the Twins and the Royals often, especially to prove to those money whiners that it ain't always the big bucks that bring success.
Wah wah wah. A very tired argument.
-TODD
So I suppose Tina Turner's "We don't need another hero" is just right out then. (Too bad. Good song.)
Finder~ You rock. Nuff Said.
Cindy~ (Every time I hear your name, I think of the character from Dark Angel, Original Cindy.) Can ya fling me some script pages too? Thanks in advance!
L.
Good evening, all-
FAQ- Ish, dad got a hernia operation? Don't rent him any funny movies. That might seem an odd thing to say - ok, it _is_ an odd thing to say, but I had two abdominal hernias operated on when I was twelve, and my loving, well-meaning parents rented me silly movies. It hurt so much to laugh that I was sobbing and they thought I was still partially drugged. Very sad. So, hence the 'no funny movies' suggestion.
CINDY- Got the pages here, thanks
FINDER- Ditto to all these other well-worded folks. There really ARE decent people out there...
Question for all of you - my dad and I were getting into a discussion via e-mail about whether or not a movie could be considered source material, even if it was 'based' on a book. What do you all think? My position was that movies based off a book weren't source material, and his point was that perhaps movie become their own story, with unique dialects, sounds, and other features books don't necessarily have - thus becoming, in effect, their own source material, like they're telling their own, separate story. Thoughts?
And I promise this isn't part of a college-course discussion, guys. *smile*
--Zoë Rose
Oh c'mon don't deprive us.
Billeh
don't be a Heeeroh
Don't be a fool with you li ie ief
Billeh don't be a heeeeroh
come back and
make me yer wi ie ief..
an'
as he started to go
Ah said
Billeh keep yer
head
low oh oh
Billeh
don't be
a
HEEroh
come back to
me hee hee.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I'm a mom too.
Cindy
Shane, thanks for skipping past "Billy Don't Be a Hero." My mother used to torment me with that song.
Seriously, though, good for you, Finder. In today's cynical, apathetic world, where too many people stand back thinking of the consequences and allowing the evildoers to get away, it's inpiring to find someone who's done the right thing, the selfless thing. I toast my tea to you, sir.
Bill
Finder,
Let me add my quarter to the jukebox, finger sliding right past "Billy, don't be a hero" and instead landing on Bonnnie Tyler's "Holding out for a hero." You done good and a whole lotta people are glad you were at the right place at the right time and took the right action.
Best,
Shane
Xanadu: That was very, very funny. I'm going over to the Mel's Furnitureland Virtual Web Warehouse to raise hell using bad poetry as an example now.
O! I have seen thee, Queen of Cheese,
Lying gently at thy ease,
Thy fair form no flies dare seize.
If you were hung from balloon,
People would think it was the moon,
Come to fall and crush them soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, James McIntyre, the Ingersoll Cheese Poet.
Jon
Xanadu: That was very, very funny. I'm going over to the Mel's Furnitureland Virtual Web Warehouse to raise hell using bad poetry as an example now.
O! I have seen thee, Queen of Cheese,
Lying gently at thy ease,
Thy fair form no flies dare seize.
If you were hung from balloon,
People would think it was the moon,
Come to fall and crush them soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, James McIntyre, the Ingersoll Cheese Poet.
Jon
I noticed that the E channel showed, the Terminator. One thing that was obvious was the lack of the name, Harlan Ellison in the credits. Did I miss something?
Frank - Thanks. I have yet to have a look at it but have saved the relevant pages, but I can't comment until I read it.
(which is going to take time as my father just had a hernia operation... ouch!).
FAQ
Let's get some reality based forensics here: The Yankees win because the team have an unfair monetary advantage, ala, the greedy Steinbrenner. When you can buy the best players, then ergo, you win--capice?
Todd,
A) Lamentable White Sox season? Have you looked at the stats lately? It's going to be a damn exciting regular season for both our teams!
B) Oh, I understood your TV point. I was just whining, as I choose not to pay for cable (Netflix fulfills my movie needs, and I glom off friends for things like "Longtitude").
Regards,
Joseph
*** Finder *** That's about the best thing I've heard in weeks. High fives and back slapping and all that stuff. Harlan has it just right. Good on ya mate!
*** Cookie *** I would like to go all Lamont Cranston on you or pretend I sat in on one of your New York gigs and then vanished in a dark blue fog but the simple fact is I know exactly what you sound like because I actually downloaded and listened to that audio file you posted awhile back. I just came to it a couple of weeks after the fact and didn't have much to contribute beyond something like "nice pipes". Mentioning you was a giggle because it propped up my somewhat bogus claim to inclusivity. Bogus NOT because I don't like you, but because anybody reading my posts here for the last 3+ years knows that I am an out of the closet elitist.
I hope you know that even though Tom Waits has a voice like 80 grit sandpaper that was a compliment. Plus, for those who care we get 2[!!!!] new studio CD's from Mr. Waits next month.
A friend of mine [Nick Nguyen] just sent me a compilation cd with some great stuff on it [ Manu Chao, Beck, Parliament, Me'Shell N'degeOcello, Massive Attack, Morphine, etc.] BUT the two tracks that blew me away were Nat King Cole doing "Aquellos Ojos Verdes" and the Propellerheads doing "History Repeating Itself". Now the Nat King Cole catalog I already own but will now get some dusting off. What I want to know is if anybody else is familiar with that Propellerhead track. IF that is representative then I have a new aquisition bug up my ass. The only "new" music I've had time to absorb is Don Byron's "Bug Music" which everybody should quickly dogpile on.
*** Stockbridge thread *** To whoever called me on this. Busted. Stockbridge was the house name. BUT the stuff that we associate with the full tilt boogie demented nature of the Spider prose style [which should only be replicated under controlled laboratory conditions] should ALL be attributed to Norvell Page. Before Norvell Page got on board, and during the one extended break The Spider was a weak sister (a Shadow if you will) of the Master of Men that Spider fans are familiar with. I have a book by Don Hutchison called "The Great Pulp Heroes" [Mosaic Press / isbn #0-88962-585-9] which devotes 18 pages to this mostly unsung twisted wordsmith. I'm sure Ron Goulart also wrote about him but I think Hutchison has the True Gen. If the pulps had their own Ed Wood it may have been this fellow.
- Barney
Joseph, P.S., I'm not lamenting that I don't get my Yankee fix on free teevee....I'm lamenting that I'm willing to pay for my Yankee fix, and because my cable company wants to cry like big babies because the team started their own network, and because the network wants to cry like big babies that our cable company wants to make them a pay-channel and not an everyone-who- subscribes-to-cablevision-pays channel, I CAN'T!
I assume you can at least pay for those silly little figure skaters you root for, but just choose not to......?
-TODD
Joseph, Blackhawks? Is there such a team out there.....oh, wait, I forget, you Chicago folks are all into those teams that never win championships unless they feature Michael Jordan. That's right....Blackhawks....they're the guys that ice skate and hit cow pucks around before going home for a disappointing summer of watching the Cubs and White Sox.
-TODD
XANADU
Did you get some screenplay pages from me?
Cindy
Todd,
Oh, boo hoo. You can watch only 30 games on free TV. Try being a Blackhawks fan. Wanna know how many games are on free TV a year? 0! Zero! A Big Fat Goose Egg! And by choice of the owner!
So go cry a Yankee river to someone else. I'm gonna go crawl in a corner and feel sorry for myself.
Regards,
Joseph
Turn around, Joseph, there's now no one between you and the Deathbird's Tail. We's gonna flush the Flash before the weekend is out.
Now if only I could WATCH MY FUCKING YANKEES ON TEEVEE!!!! I'm hot in the middle of the war between Cablevision and the YES (new Yankee Entertainment and Sports) Network. While they each stand by like petulant children waiting for one to give in, us Yankee fans who are stuck with Cablevision or nothing (I can't go satellite, I live in a condo)must drift in the world of baseball on the radio. Monopolies are against the law? Hmmm, when was the last time I could switch cable companies.
So here I sit, 50 miles from Yankee stadium, a man who normally watches about 120 Yankee games a year, and all I get is my team on free teevee just 30 times this year until one of the babies gives in (since they are both losing boocoo revenue in this fight, it's proof that they are just acting like children who don't want to cave first).
Ahhhh, but I have Yankees on radio, you say, and baseball is still a wonderful game on radio. I do agree....except for the fact that THE YANKEES MOVED TO A NEW RADIO STATION THIS YEAR AND IT COMES IN LIKE SHIT AROUND THESE HILLS OF NEW JOISEY!
Ahhhh, you say, but you can listen as best you can on the radio and every so often check the live updates on the internet since you have cable modem through Cablevision....yep, sure can, except when GODDAMN CABLEVISION DECIDES TO UPGRADE OUR CABLE LINES FOR DIGITAL ALL WEEK AND MY FUCKING CABLE MODEM GOES DOWN EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME I REFRESH THE SCREEN.
Ahhhh, Todd, it's only a game. Just think, if you get your wish and move to Phoenix, you will have to follow your Yankees long distance anyway. Get used to it. You still have the newspapers.
Yup, I say, except the sad fact is that if I were in Phoenix right now, I bet I could get the fucking YES network on satellite out there while I can't get it here, 50 miles from the fucking stadium.
Todd, this is the Harlan Ellison web board. Though we all talk about many topics, we really don't give a rat's shiny ass about your problems, so minor that they are. So please stop wasting our time.
Ok Ok, I'm sorry. I promise not to bitch too much. (razzafrazza friggadigga)
-TODD
All: Just remember, during the whacking of moonlighter, that _he_ did not come here, _he_ did not ask for our input – in fact, he didn't even ask for the input of the board he posted to. It was Heather who wanted to know whether what she read was good. Folks, _Heather_ can't tell when she reads something that bad.
Now, to Heather: Writing is a craft. Like making furniture, blowing glass, weaving a basket, singing, painting, or creating pottery. It is the collection of nuts-and-bolts skills, talent and discipline to take the raw material and from it, fashion something useful, entertaining, or in rare cases, enlightening.
For writing, the raw material is words – with a dash of punctuation thrown in for good measure. That's it. Everything a writer evokes is through their ability to put words together well. If they cannot, they will fail.
Let me translate this discussion to another craft for the sake of argument...
Heather: "Hey guys, I found this guy who's about to release a new line of Victorian furniture. Here's one of his chairs, what do you think – is it Victorian?"
The Rest Of Us (variously): "Uh, will that thing stand?", "Can you even sit in it?", "You'd think having one of the legs in that position would hurt any male who tries to sit down.", "Did he use BALSA WOOD?"
H: "Thanks a lot guys, I wanted to know if it worked as a Victorian and you guys just piled on his woodworking ability without answering my question."
TROU (variously): "It's not really a chair at all.", "It's poorly constructed.", "This guy better get out of the furniture business quick, he is gonna lose a lot of money!", "It's not Victorian – in fact, it's hard to ascribe any particular 'style' to it..."
H: "Fine, don't answer..."
What I am trying to say is this: you're asking the wrong question, Heather. His ability to reuse common tropes and situations of a particular genre (stuff that seems familiar) is irrelevant – he doesn't have the BASIC SKILL-SET necessary to be a writer. (and at 28, if the age I read was correct, he will likely never will) He uses awkward constructions, badly drawn similes and he punctuates badly – failure at the most basic level of this craft. He could have the coolest ideas on the planet, but if he doesn't have the talent, the skills OR the discipline to express them, he will never succeed.
And if you cannot recognize his lack of skills at a glance – despite a desire to admire his stick-to-it-tivness, I fear for your future in this craft as well.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.
ZOE AND HEATHER,
I just sent y'all another chunk of my screenplay. Thanks for asking.
Let me know when you want more.
:)
Cindy
Finder, reminds me of the one good moment in Tom Clancy, when in the movie Patriot Games, Harrison Ford responds, when asked why he risked his life to stop a terrorist action:
"Because it pissed me off."
Well done, Lurk
FINDER:
Stop scuffing your toe in the dirt of humility. Gary Cooper is dead; you're not his replacement. Bite into that succulent fruit of Calling Things By Their Real Names. Enjoy the cool, reifying savor accepting the simple appellation, the absolutely correct designation: HERO. Trust me on this, boychik, I've been there, done that. Many times. It is a heady vintage. And, like cowardice, it is habit-forming. Do it once, get that rush, eschew the demeaning "gee, I don't think of myself as a hero, just an average guy, y'know, who charged a machine gun nest and saved the lives of seventy men," and you'll find it outdoes dope or drink or sex or Art as an aphrodisiac. Just because your moment never came previously, you misidentified yourself as, what did you call yourself, a "shrinking violet." Face the reality, goofus: obviously you are NOT a shrinking violet.
This has been a life-clarifying moment for you. Most people never get blessed with one. Stop trying to make it small. Embrace it, learn who you Really Are, and live the new life you've given yourself. In psychiatry, they call less blazing moments of truth and clarity a "breakthrough" or--theologically--an "epiphany."
You're a hero. We spend our lives waiting for Fate to give us our marching orders. You've gotten yours. Congratulations.
TO WHOEVER ASKED:
My short story, "The Universe of Robert Blake" was written when I was in the Army, 1958 or 59. Long before I came to Hollywood and met Bobby. Or, in fact, ever thought of him as anything other than Bobby Blake, Little Beaver of the Red Ryder western movies. It is a story about a little black kid on the day he discovers he's a "nigger." Has nothing to do with Robert Blake, the actor. Coincidence, is all it is.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Todd, with Entertainment Weekly as your cultural guide, I am not surprised that you would downplay the wonderful, and in depth reportage of Jews For Justice. But I expect this from you Todd; at least you didn't let me down.
---------------------
Faisel, what do you think of the Jews For Justice study?
Edward,
Yes. Yes, I do.
Finder,
Good man. Just remember not to sign up for any active duty or anything. That same "switch" that made you run after the guy is the same one that's gonna make you jump on top of that grenade to save your buddies.
Dan,
The badge and decoder ring can be found in specially marked packages of "Churlish" cereal. Accept no substitues.
I can hardly keep up with y'all, but one topic catches my eye and that is that we owe it to be "nurturing" to folks learning an art form. On one level, yes, if we want to see an art flourish, we need to keep our eyes open for young, new talent. At the same time, young artists are wise to study and LEARN craft.
Barney, man! You've never heard me so how do you know you wanna leave the singing to me???:) Seriously, I'm a good musician though I'm not a genius. Singing (and some wheelin' and dealin')got me two degrees and a little regional niche to hang out my "jazz singer" shingle.
Anyway, the hardest thing in the world to hear is criticism. As an adjunct instructor teaching a .5 credit "class" (actually, I'm runnin' a band), grades are a joke. Still, I must professionally criticize and offer solutions to what my musicians do. It's the same job that editors and writing teachers do.
Usually, students are receptive to that criticism, but sometimes they are not. They remain locked in the world of their own perceived genius and worth. I remember thinking I knew it all and was so goddam hip when I was an undergrad. Good thing I got my ass kicked. It's hard to be receptive to criticism because it seems so personal. I mean think about it: My voice is the only one I have. Criticizing my singing is criticizing ME. Some people don't like the sound of my voice and some people don't like the way I use it. It was difficult to study classical singing because its aesthetic was so different from the music I play. It was like learning grammar. At the same time, classical technique gave me some useful tools to make my music more easily. It was a painful discipline and included having a teacher continually tell me I sounded "tense in the jaw" or was "pressing on the tone" or "scooping" when I was getting a lot of strokes and some cash from singing even more outrageously in bars. I hated going to the voice studio. I eventually learned to separate criticism of my technique from criticism of my ideas and potential (that, BTW, was due to an open-minded voice teacher who loved and believed in me). I then began to sing more easily because the technique facilitates the expression. The thing is, though, that I had to be willing to LEARN.
In short, pay your dues.
Also, if someone just has NO potential, it's a kind thing to tell them. They'll either persist and fail miserably, or they'll persist and slowly improve through sheer determination and optimism. Or perhaps they'll turn their interests in another direction and thank you for it later.
I've forgotten the gentleman's name, but a very famous 18th-century voice teacher wrote a terrific treatise/instruction book about singing. A couple of things made me laugh because I recognize them as timeless and universal. One was that a singer never feels well today. She felt well yesterday and expects she'll feel better tomorrow, maybe next week. The second was that if a child showed no aptitude for music, the right thing to do is to tell the child's parents to save their money.
Jay -- You tell me you're interested, and post me a mailing address. Are you interested in Bradbury stories, Milne poems, or Sherlock Holmes stories? I've also recorded Peter Mayle's _A Year in Provence_ and Bradbury's _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, but being longer efforts (six or eight 110-minute cassettes apiece), they take longer to process and mail.
Jay: Anchor Bay just about got "Within the Woods" on the most recent limited edition of "Evil Dead." But, in the end, as Joseph pointed out earlier, despite feverish efforts, they couldn't claim the rights. I know there's an outfit in Miami that sells really bad copies of Raimi's Super 8 work (they have a tape that not only contains "Within the Woods," but the infamous Pillsbury Doughboy movie and "The Happy Valley Kid"). Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it. I wish someone would release Raimi's Super 8 work on DVD. Given that Anchor Bay was insane enough to release "Thou Shalt Not Kill...Except," a remarkably terrible movie directed by Josh Bender featuring Sam Raimi as a wig-wearing bad guy and a gaunt Ted Raimi trying to look tough as "the Chain Man," one would hope that the same feverish zeal eventually leads to Raimi's other work making the rounds.
Washu: I understand that Tinglebum's job security faces serious jeopardy after the publication of that essay. But word on the street about Carpenter is that he's trying to go back to a simple storyline (a la "Assault on Precinct 13" or "Halloween") for his next one.
Rich: The "more power to him" line was largely thrown out there as a token gesture. But perhaps they were poorly chosen words. And as someone who sweats every morning, the idea of handing this kid the keys to the castle certainly frightens the hell out of me as well. But I don't wish Moonlighter any ill will. The guy can't write, true, but for all I know, he could be a hell of a nice guy or, years from now, he could eventually develop into something beyond where he is right now. But I don't see any real reason to dwell on offal for a lengthy period of time and let tinny shrpanel immerse itself beneath the flesh in this case, do you?
Joseph -
D'OH!
- Jay
Hey did you ever finish that doorstop of a script I sent you?
He was presented to the group as a writer proud of being published which, to me, put him at a higher level of inspection than a kid who needs simple advice on moving forward with his budding craft.
We approached him honestly and critically, though I agree with Heather we were quite harsh. This is because of that status he pretends on the website. While I highly suspect this "publisher" is a vanity press, Moonlighter certainly doesn't go out of his way to clarify the point so I have to judge him as though he's reached this plateau in a very competitive field. I feel, as I think most of us do, that once you've "arrived" (been published) you become a target and subject to the same strict, hyper-critical analysis as anyone who has a name in print.
Heather maintains that we should nurture this budding talent and offer critical advice to help him grow into a bright, beautiful literary flower. In a way, I think we've provided more than enough fertilizer to help the kid examine his key faults, including the really icky metaphor I just used.
She also contends that vanity is no different than having a company buy into your work - it's being published and shares the same status. I respectfully disagree. Moonlighter's work requires a significant amount of work to be considered by a slushpile reader, much less be sought out by a major publisher. I say that realistically, not to the slap the kid in the face. As a member of the Rejection Letter Collector's Guild, I know it is much different to earn that coveted acceptance letter, to earn that moment of excitement and pride. THAT is something you can't get in a vanity press; when a group of individuals decide to invest in you as an artist and as a commercial property.
I think we all have the same idea of where Moonlighter's skill places him on this road to publication.
If this is, as Heather indicates, some uninitiated scribbler with a vanity press contract - a student in need of assistance - how would we react to him? What would we tell him differently? I think the advice we gave is strong and important to his growth, so perhaps the TONE is the only aspect that could be changed? I dunno.
In any case, I wish him well and humbly suggest that Heather take the best bits of advice and pass them along to Moonlighter. If he's not ready to take the criticism as we posted it, then he needs more help than the board can provide.
Jay
Jay,
Even worse - "Woods" was shot on 8mm film. "Evil Dead" was shot on 16mm.
Regards,
Joseph
FINDER FINDS OUT WHAT HE'S MADE OF
You ARE a HERO!!!!!!!!
But God DAMN, don't EVER do that again! Let 'em run if it's just a purse.
Still, I'm so proud of you! You're the impression of US that the German lady is taking back to her country.
You're a real man, which is the highest compliment I can give a guy.
:)
Cindy
L'il Washu/Joseph -
Yeah, I've heard the quality of "Within the Woods" is lousy, but its the first time they worked with 16mm and TRIED to be professional. Campbell talks about it fondly in his autobio and refers to tricks Raimi invented to keep costs down. Which leads to a LEGAL question...
What is the Internet version of "Fair Educational Use" for (C) material? What is fair and reasonable use when downloading visual media for this purpose?
Finder - Bravo. Congratulations. Take an Free Absolution card out of the fishbowl on your way out the door, courtesy Reverend Jay and the Universal Life Church. :)
David Loftus - Where can one get these marvelous recordings Heather speaks of... or "of which Heather speaks?"
More later as I must get food in my belly.
It's _On Becoming a Novelist_, David. Part of that search turned up this interesting interview with Dan Simmons. Scroll down for his advice on dealing with "I can write better than that" if you're interested:
http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/sep01/simmons.htm
Jon
Finder;
You stand with Jay, my Scotty, Alia, and probably more than a few of the others who come here as one of those people who gives a damn; one of those who know that if you want a better world, you've got to do some work toward it.
You're one of those who can throw off the malaise that seems to permeate our society, that ennui toward others that so many display and justify with a gutless "Well, what can I do about it?", or "It's not my problem". As a result, you show that us scuttling little creatures, with a bit of effort, can show a little of the decency we always profess we have.
All I can say is well done. Not much, I know. And thank you.
Love to all, Melissa
You just fucked us all an awful lot, Todd...
But I did like Carpenter's 'They Live' in spite of the disappointing direction he took it in the thoid act (sinking his feet in predictable Schwarzenegger cliches, which didn't even work as a send-up).
WARNING: Long-ass post with no bearing on the Middle East, the Evil Dead, piss-poor writing or anything else - just a brief tale from the improbable files of the Finder, postmarked Saturday, 4/20/02 that I needed to share.
His name was Tyrone. He had come in the rear courtyard entrance of the Renaissance hotel - across from the DC Convention Center. Sauntered in through the doors near the restaurant. My cousin Melanie noticed him. He looked out of place in the lobby of the Renaissance - hip-hop gear, hat turned around. He passed behind me - I never saw him walk in. Mel saw, though. Her hackles went up. He went down the hallway to the restrooms. Mel ticked off a mental note and we continued keeping a lookout for the friends we were meeting.
Her name was Winnie. She'd been in the United States from Germany for less than two hours - her first trip to the US. She was with her boyfriend Michael, down from PA to meet her. They were going to see some sights - the White House, the Washington Monument, and so on - before moving on to Boston on Sunday. They stopped at the Renaissance to check rates - they still didn't have a place to stay. Winnie talked to the people at the front desk, then went on from the front desk to the ladies room.
Tyrone was waiting for Winnie in the ladies room. Not specifically for her - for the next woman in. Could have been my cousin, I note in retrospect. And she wonders why I walk with her when she walks the dog at night. From Winnie's account, when she walked through the door, Tyrone grabbed her by the hair and threw her down on the floor, liberating her handbag from her in the process. And then he started to walk - TO WALK - out of the hotel.
Except two things happened: Winnie, who hadn't been knocked senseless, began to scream. And Melanie turned around upon hearing the screams to see Tyrone walking towards the rear doors of the lobby, where he had come in, clutching a handbag against him, and she screamed "OH MY GOD, HE'S GOT HER PURSE!!!"
The next four seconds are a blur in my head. Just the next four, because the rest is etched in the mind as if rendered by acid on glass. Melanie likens it to a scene from the Beastie Boys "Sabotage" video: Tyrone upgraded his "draw no attention" walk to an "oops, gotta flee" run; Winnie came running out from the bathroom area screaming "Stop him!"; and, according to Melanie, I vaulted the low wall and planter behind the small couch I was sitting on in order to give chase.
I may have lept over it. Hell, I must have, because I didn't get to the doors on sunshine and good wishes. I remember landing on the tile floor of the lobby and having a momentary concern about slipping and falling on my ass, because I was in my black leather shoes. No one likes a clumsy man of action.
I pursued. I ran after Tyrone - out the back doors, through the courtyard between the Renaissance and the Technology Center, out to New York Avenue. If he'd gone right, he'd have gotten away - I've dropped 45 pounds in the last two years, and I've been going to the gym, but my speed burst has a max duration of about a city block, and I doubt I could have kept up for very long. But I cut my turn into the courtyard wide to the right, and so he veered left, ran into the street, spilled some of the contents of the bag in the street, continued left when he hit the far sidewalk. He dropped the bag, and ran right into the arms of hotel security, who had gone out the front door and seen him coming their way.
I never laid a hand on him. Never got closer than twelve feet. But I helped Tyrone make a hasty choice that worked against him. The hotel security people, the two FBI guys who broke cover on their World Bank/IMF detail, the three city cops and the Park policeman all saw to that. They put him down, knee in the back, arms behind him, Tyrone screaming to be let up, that he hadn't done nothin', that he just wanted to sit up, that he was the wrong guy, never mind what the people who'd seen him running with and dropping the bag said.
Winnie got her bag back, intact - passport, cash, keys, credit cards, phone, everything. She clutched on to me for dear life until her boyfriend was located and brought over to her, thanking me repeatedly for keeping after the guy. Statements were collected, information was taken down by the hotel and the DC police, Winnie asked me to pose with her for a picture (I've become a vacation story for the folks back in Germany), the hotel put her and her boyfriend up for the night and fed them well in an attempt to show good faith for a very bad thing that happened on their property, the Detective on the scene thanked me and called me a "good citizen" for chasing after him, a passenger in a passing car heckled Tyrone ("Way to get arrested, dumbass!") and as I was getting ready to go back into the hotel (where Winnie and Michael later bought me a Guinness, once they were settled, in thanks that I didn't feel were necessary), Winnie said observationally "It's a good thing he didn't have a gun or a knife."
And THAT'S when, for the first time in the entire event, it dawned on me that Tyron COULD have had a knife or gun, that he could have put my lights out or gutted me like a hundred ninety five pounds of mackerel if he thought it worth his time - and THAT brought on the mental shakes when I finally came down off my adrenal high about 90 minutes later.
He didn't, and that's the start and finish of it. Except that he COULD have. And I never even considered it.
And I'm sitting here, three days later, still trying to process it all, and I'm still asking myself where the "GO" trigger inside came from that burned through my typical caution. I'm a wallflower. A shrinking violet. Always have been. Three family members in a row said (in puzzled voice) "DJ did that?" when they heard the story.
Believe me, no one was more surprised than me.
Something snapped inside. Someone cried for help. I went. I did. I have no idea of the flashpoint - how or where or why or from what point in my inner most core the switch was thrown - I simply needed to do something. Should it scare me that I only thought it through after Tyrone had been stuffed into the back of the unit sent to ferry him to jail? Dad was a cop, mom is a court clerk. Maybe it's in the blood.
It is, perhaps, in the scheme of things, an event of very little cosmic significance. I helped a lady get her purse back, and kept her from the hell of being stuck in a foreign country with no identity and no access to her life. I think I even helped blot away some of the bad first impression Tyrone gave her of the nation's capitol.
Mel says I'm a hero. I don't know about all that. I figure I'm just a guy who was in the right place to try to do the right thing at the right time. But it makes me smile to feel like I made a difference - what is it Emerson said - "To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded."
I'm just glad they caught the son of a bitch. I hate running for no good reason...
JIM DAVIS - I don't feel singled out at all. Wouldn't have gone there if I wasn't willing to stare into the mirror. The very simple fact of the matter is that I have intimacy issues. I'm fine up to a point, but when I reach a certain line in the sand, I tuck tail and run. Where these issues come from is a sedimentary-style set of layers that will make some psychologist's trip to Aruba much more souvenir-friendly. I also choose badly. Very badly. Godzilla yanking the wings off Mothra and kicking over Mount Fuji badly. Or, as one friend told me, "Your picker is broken." Which must be said very slowly and deliberately in order to avoid those pesky misunderstandings. It's all very strange at times, and a little silly because (not to toot my own horn, but no one else will do it for me) I'm a real sweetheart with a deep and abiding sensitivity and attentiveness to the opposite sex. (The other friend quote (no kidding): "Dude, you're a MAN who LISTENS. Knock it off. You're going to fuck it up for the rest of us.") Knowing my stumbling blocks, I'm working on curing them.
As for a pro to "break me in" - no. Not yet. There might have been a time I'd have gone in search of one, and I never say never, but I don't look on this as a boil to be lanced, either. When I'm ready, I'll jump. And if I shuffle off this mortal coil before I've had that maddening kind of experience that burns itself in long, echoing moans and sighs and giggles into the gray matter for the rest of time, well, you can't miss the taste of ice cream if you've never had any. My two cents, anyway – your mileage may vary.
Dropping in to say that I'm a new member of the Barney and Rich Fan Club. Where can I get my official badge and decoder ring?
Amen, guys!
Just a little evidence in support of Barney's theory that Harlan "learned to write in public" and his literary reputation may have suffered for it:
In one of his books about how to write, the serious novelist and writing teacher John Gardner (not the author of James Bond novels and cool pastiches of Holmes from the point of view of Moriarty, but the late author of _Grendel_ and _October Light_ and _On Moral Fiction_ and _In The Suicide Mountains; they're different writers, never mind the former head of Common Cause, who is John W. Gardner!) just happened to pick on two passages from early Harlan Ellison as examples of bad writing.
I can't remember which Gardner book it was, probably _The Art of Fiction_ or _On Becoming a Novelist_, and offhand I can't remember which Ellison book he selected for criticism (I can look 'em both up fairly easily, if anyone's interested -- in fact, folks can probably flip through both books and find the passage quickly enough), but that had to hurt.
Hey, has anyone seen a copy of that vol. 10 issue of "Animal Fair" magazine that was supposed to have "Furry Muse" stories by writers about their pets, including Harlan and Ahbhu? Shortly after it was heralded on this board weeks ago, I went to my local Borders but vol. 9 was still on the rack. I've been back several times and still not seen the new issue. Did I miss it somehow? How often does it come out?
Barney touched on this and I want to expand on the notion so bear with me and do not take anything personal, but PLEASE PLEASE do not say "more power to him" in regards to moonlighter (or, whoever the hell he/she is) publishing this crappy book "Shivers". True, I haven't read the book, but if the excerpt is any indication I don't have to. THIS BOOK SHOULD NOT BE PUBLISHED. And if it's a vanity publishing press, fine, more power to him. If he wants to distribute that crap instead of using that money to give to a homeless person or NASA or the Salvation Army or KICK or Guys with Short Peepees then that's his business. It's his money, he can burn it if he wants.
But, and this is a big BUT, to say "more power to him" if this waste of paper gets published by ANY publishing house and they paid him for this scab, then it demeans those of us who sweat over each word and try to produce something that is not at the fifth-grade level and who hope to have something published someday. Yes, I am offended that this bile might actually get published other than vanity publishing and that YOU GUYS aren't any more pissed off about this than if he went to the Middle East and lit a firecracker under Arafat and then shoved pork down Sharon's throat. It is taking away resources from getting your work published and "more power to him" is idly standing by and watching the baby seals get clubbed. This guy should be hunted down and force-fed the writer's Barney mentioned. I don't give a shit if this guy is ten-years old. Fuck 'im. If he's gonna post that crap on there so the whole fuckin' world and God can see it, then he deserves the ire and scorn that is bestowed upon him. You let others see your best work, goddammit. And if that's his best work, then I'm back to my first critical opinion: Fuck 'im. And if that shit gets published then we may as well just fuckin' bend over and let the non-writing, simile-sucking, metaphor-mangling, cliche-cunts fuck us up the ass. And no, I haven't checked the keyboard layout so "cliche" is gonna stay like that.
And Todd, "The Prince of Darkness" sucked, so fuck you.
And for those imparting symobolism and aura-reflecting and deep meaning into David Lynch's pseudo-masterpiece "Mulholland Drive", it's like this: The guy had an idea for a series. That fell through. He took what he had and put a fucking end on it. End of story. And the lesbian scenes? It was hot action by two fine looking women who wanted to fuck. And I was fuckin' turned on. I had to have a towel in the theater.
Washu,
Oh, I don['t know. The odder people in "Fanalysis" seem to me to be not that far away from slipping into a darker corner of their psyche (hell, the "Xena" fan was seriously kind of creepy). And I do think "Fanalysis" dips a bit into the subject, though it's a much lighter piece. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that it was as dark or weighty as "Xenogenesis."
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph:
I've seen 'Fanalysis', all right, but personally I don't feel it's that similar to Harlan's XENOGENESIS. XENOGENESIS chronicled the more puerile, cruel, petty, malicious side of fans while FANALYSIS seemed more easy-going and benign. Mind you, you don't have to look very far on the AICN chat boards to see the obnoxious workings of putrid minds on display. (One reason why I don't read them.)
Like you, I am very much a fan. Of what? Different things from different sources: literature, comic books, movies, etc. My namesake is from a fairly obscure anime character, but I don't go as far as seizing the personality of that same character. It's more of a kind of nod of admiration, nothing else. However, I do not dress up in wacky cornball outfits and go to various conventions across the country, probably because they would just depress the hell out of me. Ever seen Todd Browning's FREAKS? Remember the scene where the freaks are chanting, "One of us, one of us, one of us"? Then you'll know exactly how I feel about conventions.
Nevertheless, it's great to chat about our hobbies once in a while...as long as we don't start saying 'May the Force be With You' and 'Live Long and Prosper' and 'I'm a Barbie Girl in a Barbie World' and...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
*** Heather *** All in all I'm a pretty inclusive fellow but you will be getting no apology from this quarter.
Heather hiccups despondantly - "I didn't ask for highbrow snottiness."
The first phrase that flashed through my brain was the Bogart line, "you'll take it and you'll like it." Heather, if you want lowbrow just turn on the tube. We're trying to cut down on our lowbrow intake here.
"between some of you lot and the intellectual assholes..."
Intellectual asshole? Moi? You really are too kind. Could I have that stiched on an armband? Put me on the train to that "Camp Concentration" where I can piss away the rest of my days kicking folks around the block who, IF they have a writing style is best likened to attempting prose in a second language. And in that category of fiction [English prose as a second language] may I recommend Joseph Conrad as an excercise in compare and contrast with the notorious Mr. Moonlighting.
My point is some things ought not to be encouraged. He may get better some day but I'm not waiting for that to happen. Nor should you. There are a humptymillion great books out there. Read those.
As to your Bradbury defense, well, that's an exercise that should be gotten over VERY quickly. Life really is very short. I am 42 and hope to absorb another 1100 to 1500 books before I die. That is less than 1/10th of the books I presently own. The weeding process gets tough in the middle game and Machiavellian in the endgame.
Here, I will even point the finger at myself. I may learn to write gooder someday but I will never be able to carry a tune. Not in a bucket. I leave it to the Cookie Coogans [and the chic who fronts the Propellorheads and Tom Waits] of this world. I do not inflict my "singing" on people in public. That guy [Moonlighting] is the writing equivalent of tone deaf. He should be stopped. Or made to get MUCH better REAL fast. Likening him to Stockbridge was a kindness.
I'm NOT saying you have to be a natural. Very few are. I think T.C Boyle might have been. Either that or he has done a very good job of hiding the bodies. Twain and Vonnegut were very very good right at the start but even Twain grew embarrassed of some of his early work. Particularly the mock-journalism and much of the contents of his first collection.
This actually brings us back to our fearless leader. I hope I say this the right way. One of the things that makes Harlan so interesting to me as a writer is just how far he went and just how much he learned. And presumably continues to learn. Harlan HATES it when I unearth some obscure piece he did for rent money in the mid-1950's. At first [and this is because he is so polite to his friends] I really didn't/couldn't understand how much this hurt him but I do now. Those pieces are the things that I think kept him from being ranked with Mailer and Vonnegut and Updike and Bellow. Don't misunderstand me. I think he ranks up there or in there or whatever but my opinion doesn't count. Those pieces are the lingering evidence of the Ellison Problem.
[Don't worry, the skinhead Dannelke will be offering no Ellison final solutions.]
Harlan taught himself to write IN PUBLIC. Not just the storefront window gigs but in just about every sense you can impart to those words. He taught himself short story, novella, essay, screenplay, film crit., lit. crit., spoken word, public lecturing, the ART of the letter and he did it incrementally, shamelessly and anywhere they would pay him for it. They will never forgive him for that. There may be an American Heritage set of the essays of Harlan Ellison and many of the stories from "Gentleman Junkie" on up through "Slippage" will have legs and a healthy afterlife in some collected comprehensive authorized edition promoted by the NY literary establishment someday but I will be really fucking old or dead before that happens or even gets to comittee. They're going to make him wait. Boy howdy will they make him wait. It's a shame because his only crime was succeeding so publicly and not adopting some sort of "Shucks little missy, twarn't nuthin'" attitude.
[You may consider that last paragraph part 1. of a preface to a transcript I hope to post REAL SOON about that Blish question.]
The coda here Heather is this - Real life is harder than school not easier. Applying basic standards of competence is not the same as intellectual snobbery. It's Darwinian but it is fair. Get good or get gone.
- Barney Dannelke
Washu,
Agreed on the Book of the Dead DVD that we both own. Fine commentaries (Campbell's is fun as hell), and if you haven't looked at Campbell's documentary "Fanalysis" (stuck somewhere in special features), it's really worth a look. Shades of "Xenogenesis."
Gotta say though, my favorite part is the TV commercials. They're fairly slick, with quotes from papers and Stephen King, and then at the end have a horrid cable-access-green screen with the five or six theaters in the Detroit area that are carrying the movie. It's so 1983-cheap it made me laugh out loud.
Regards,
Joseph
To share a few thoughts of modern cinema:
JOSEPH: I have the BOOK OF THE DEAD special edition myself. It's a decent buy (the wonderful cover is worth the price alone)although, like many others, I was disappointed by the absence of WITHIN THE WOODS. Mind you, from what I've heard it was pretty...crummy.
LYNN: I have no clue what's wrong with Carpenter these days. He seems to have taken an utterly bizarre, inexplicable 'I don't give a fuck anymore' attitude which is greatly depressing, considering his fabulous films from the past.
PROF. TINGLEBUM: Regarding your essay, I would just like to make a few critical judgements of...pffft...the analysis you made of...mmmff eeep...the character of...
TINGLEBUM!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Ye gods, that was funny.
BTW, as it hasn't seemed to have been reported here yet, I'll go ahead and say it: the HELLBOY movie has been 'officially greenlit', at least according to Harry Knowles over at AICN. Knowles is a personal friend of the director, Guillermo del Toro, so I'll trust him this far. Take it as you will.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
P.S. Most hotly anticipated film? 'Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can...'
Chuck,
Not this time.. not ACTUALLY. I was afraid I had committed a faux pas that could have brought an F-5 down on my head.
It was just a false alarm. Smooth sailing and blue skies..you know how it goes when one predicts a squall, something will happen to make a fool of you. Believe me in this case I'd rather look like a fool for ducking when no one has aimed a blow at my head than to be caught flat footed with the full brunt of the storm in my face.
Storms are beneficial if they aren't too brutal. In this case it was just a lovley darkening brought about by my hand over my eyes.
Thank you so much for asking though Chuck, you're a peach.
Cindy
Jeffrey -- Thanks for the feedback on my West Africa essays. It's always nice to hear somebody actually READ my writing, never mind that he or she got something out of it. I keep meaning to write something about my incredible three-week trip to Estonia and St. Petersburg back in '94, but there's just too much else going on in my life. (Regulars here will notice I haven't been posting much the last couple of weeks.)
Heather -- Glad to hear you got the tapes and enjoyed 'em. I'm sure it's not JUST your tape recorder that was a problem. I recorded the stories in a low-tech studio that's a nonprofit service to blind and elderly housebound listeners -- held together by the largesse of a public radio station, listeners' contributions, and the loving labor of dozens of volunteers -- and then made copy of my duplicate tape on a cheap home boom box, so we're talking pretty low fi here. I'd love to hear what a professionally produced recording of my vocal talents would sound like, but who knows if that'll ever happen...
Jay,
By all accounts, you don't want to see "Woods." Including the accounts of the people who made it.
Anyway, "Within The Woods" was going to be on the "Evil Dead: Book of the Dead" Special Edition released by Anchor Bay last month, but the plans were scuttled in January for some reason:
http://www.mhvf.net/forum/scifihorror/posts/124227088.html
So, you can try to find a 12th-generation video copy, but what's the point? It'll look even worse than it started at. Also, they'll be bootleg videos and VCDs.
Regards,
Joseph
Heather,
Many apologies for not mentioning you in my posting on moonlighter's typings. I have to start taking that Ginko Biloba herb for memory. Of course, I have to remember to BUY it first. As I mentioned before, there were many amateurish mistakes in the writing, which other webderlanders have illustrated quite well. And if you think being published by a vanity press is so impressive, remember that you pay THEM to publish x number of books, and then distribution is up to you. The book I mentioned in connection with SHIVERS; RAINBOW ARC OF FIRE, is incredibly bad. Even makes SHIVERS seem half-way decent. I have put the contents of the book out of my memory, I only remember it was a vague rambling about some guys racing to find an artifact, a sort of RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, in a new agey sort of way. Oh, and it was really, really bad. This is the kind of book to keep around as a doorstop, or if you need to press a flower. It would also keep some tables from wobbling. A vanity press published this stinky literary suppository. They'll publish anything.
Sorry to hear about the job situation. I hope things will pick up soon.
Cindy,
You have a tornado out there? That's what your posting sounded like. Glad you made it through.
Chuck
Just finished reading my Entertainment Weekly Summer Movie Preview issue and the movie I am most anticipating is Road To Perdition starring Tom Hanks and directed by Sam Mendes (I loved American Beauty....fuck you all!).
Of course, I plan on attempting to have fun at Spider-Man and Star Wars Attack Of The Clones and Minority Report, and I'm intrigued by Christopher Nolan's remake of the splendid Insomnia (mainly because of Al Pacino, who always looks like he needs a good nap and Robin Williams playing bad guy....though if you saw the original, you would know that they shouldn't really be showing bad guy for awhile...oh well).
Naturally, being a lover of all things Woody, Hollywood Ending looks like a fun little frolic that I pray will wipe the bad taste of the one (ok maybe second to Alice) Woody movie I didn't like, Curse Of The Jade Scorpion.
But the king of all movies that I am anticipating....ok, after Road To Perdition.....is the wonderfully titled Eight Legged Freaks. Holy shit, men and wimmen, I have seen 2 hilarious and downright creepy trailers for this giant spider movie......I want it now!!!!!
Oh, and Syamalan's Signs looks cool. and. and. and.
OK, I know, as usual, I will be letdown big time as the August breeze begins to chill into September (Maaaaa, I don't want to go to school), but I'm gonna have fun at the theaters this summer.....then, maybe after all the popcorn is picked from my teeth, only then will I begin to look for another job!
-TODD
I'm re-reading "If Chins Could Kill" the autobio of Bruce Campbell. In it he describes the making of the short film prototype for "Evil Dead" called "Within the Woods." Anyone know where i can view or buy this short without shelling out another $40 for an Evil Dead "special" edition DVD? I'm very interested in seeing Raimi's evolution from student filmmaker to pro director.
Jay
Todd~ Hey, I paid money to see Vampires(**) in the theatre, and would have for Ghosts of Mars(**) but it was apparently showing in the revolving screen theatre it came and went so fast. But I did rent it. Great concept that fell utterly flat upon execution. This one looks to be the "necessity is the mother of invention" revival of chivalry in a post-apocalyptic age. Maybe I'm reading too much into the trailer, but then again, I'm so positively green that I didn't get to write that script, who knows? It was London, and the special effects looked magnificent. And I like Matthew McConaughey. And by now you know I saw that trailer opening night at The Scorpion King(***), which I enjoyed, showing that it doesn't take high Shakespearean theatre to keep me entertained. (I also enjoyed Brotherhood of the Wolf(***), which was all over the map.) For $9.00, a good flick just has to keep me interested. Which Training Day didn't. So to each his own.
I'll let you know when I see it, how it fares compared to Vampires or Ghosts of Mars.
L. (All ratings are entirely my own opinion.)
* - Highlander 2 Bad. (The Musketeer)
** - Wait till video, if you must see it.
*** - Worth the popcorn but not the line. (Ice Age)
**** - Wow. (The Mummy, Independence Day, The English Patient)
***** - Lord of the Rings WOW. (Raiders of the Lost Ark)
PS. I've been catching up on all of the Justice Leagues on video. What a great show that is. Hawk Girl is my favorite. "Keep talking like that and you'll be the fastest man alive with a limp."
Hey! I've been lurking a bit and read the post from Steve about finding a good indie bookstore in Los Angeles. I've been in New York for a few months now and would love suggestions on a few good indie bookstores anywhere in the five boroughs. Thanks!
Todd,
You want crazy on the net? How about a page claiming that Mac OS X is a tool of anti-Christian evolutionists (third section):
http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html
God, I love this century.....
Regards,
Joseph
Heather: All right. I'll 'fess up. I was the Prof. There was some time I had left at the office and, curious about the reports of legionnaire's disease here, I checked out "Shivers" and almost immediately sank my molars into my hand to see if what I was reading was fer real. Then again, I've just come down from a two-book Ian McEwan extravaganza over the past week ("Amsterdam" and "Atonement," both of which I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't had the privileged opportunity to pick up the man's books; his prose is so razor-sharp that even the most obtuse reader couldn't possible confuse the genuine article from the dregs of, oh say, Rod McKuen). I was having a bit of fun. I may have been a bit cruel. But if the kid got published, more power to him, even if I'm inclined to side with Berman, et al. on the kid's merits.
Whoa, Frank, you made me do it. You made me laugh my muthufucking ass off by citing Jews For Justice In The Middle East as if it was some straight forward group writing a fair 'book' on the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Goddamn, not only did I laugh my ass off, but I almost laughed my tenderkins off as well.
Whew. Thanks for the laugh.....I can always count on you for finding the most hilarious citings available on the 'net.
-TODD
Hate to say it, Lynn, but the trailer for Reign Of Fire does not leave me with squishy feelings of anticipation. It is apparently impressing a lot of people on the net, and obviously piqued your interest, but aside from an interesting production painting of dragons attacking a city (was it NYC? I can't recall, but I could have sworn that the trailer mentioned London)I found the trailer to be bland as all get go. It reminded me of bad John Carpenter. Not Halloween John Carpenter or The Fog John Carpenter or They Live or Prince Of Darkness (fuck you all, I love this one thanks to the quantum physics and the devil discussions) or even The Thing (fuck you all again) John Carpenter, but more like Vampires or Ghosts Of Mars John Carpenter.
A bunch of people banding together in a future world to fight off impossible power. Wake me when the second feature starts.
-TODD
ALL: Positively Fuh-ascinating article at www.ireadpages.com --
click on "online contents" on the menu to the left, and then scroll down to "Emissaries of Evil." (Would I steer you wrong?)
Informationally, the man
if they show me something more than "pile on the rabbit" glibly lipped bandwagoning.
Now, to your post.
The couple of sentences you mentioned. Hmm..It would never occur to me to write like that. Where is he GETTING that kind of stuff? It reminds me of...of..what I've read in a classroom. There's something that reminds me of a kid in class CRIBBING from something. Hmm..Hard to explain. Using phrases he doesn't understand. Like a french student speaking English. _I_ know. Something to do with language as it is written and language as it is spoken. Does that make sense, P.A.?
Yes, I'm sorry if the lad hurt your ears and bloodied your eyes. Heh. As you ARE a teacher and do this all day long. Thing is, that's not the only piece of his I read. And I'm still not dissecting each sentence I read. I know these people are amateurs.
So, fuck, am I.
I had a friend who complained of another friend's writing. He used to say the guy wrote like a Russian--too long and flowery or summat like that. Is that similar to what this guy is doing?
Thanks for the feedback, P.A.
Heather
OK, am I missing something here? Otherwise, beating up someone over at the Stephen King bulletin board on this bulletin board is so postmodern, I'm getting a nosebleed. Anyway, the kid's got spunk, and the piece is much less wince-inducing than the latest David E. Kelley laughathon on Boston Public. Now there's some bad writing.
On the other hand, I do hate spunk.
Jon
Heather:
OK, I caved in and read the Shivers piece to see if everyone was being mean, or what. I read other people's writing for a living, and it has made me a stickler for certain errors and conventional cliches. Also, on my leisure time, I want to read quality prose, so my tolerance for juvenalia is low in the PM.
Suffice it to say, I thought the piece was bad. Not only are its images trite and stilted, it's not even punctuated correctly. Others have pointed out some really cheesy metaphors and similes, poor constructions and phraseology. I cringe to look at them because they read like (average level) high school prose.
But, so as to offset the anticipated epithet "intellectual asshole" I will give some quick examples that really bugged me:
"The car was traveling at a high rate of speed and Billy dove to one side of the roadway to remove himself from it's path. The car flew by as Billy hit the ground, missing him by not more than a few inches."
First off, wordy. "High rate of speed"? "Not more than a few inches"? Surely these are not the most elegant ways to describe the incident. In fact, it's pretty awkward. Also, this passage, like so many others, is rife with incorrectly placed apostrophes, which drives me INSANE. I am grading research papers now and if I see one more incorrectly used apostrophe, I'm gonna start taking hostages.
"He admired it's beauty, it's essence of life. "Death and diamonds. The two things that really do, last forever" he said."
Incorrectly placed comma, missing comma. Not the only ones in the passage either. More bad apostrophes. Not to mention an ending line so corny it would make Orville Reddenbacher cringe.
Even if the story was compelling, which it isn't, I could not get past these kinds of errors. They are distracting and demean the reader. Maybe I'm just an overly critical pedagogue. Screw it, I'm sure I am, but you wanted an *honest* opinion, right? Here's mine: Shame on him for not at least having someone with a grasp of basic punctuation proofread it before he plastered it up on the Web. It's pretty freakin' annoying to be asked to take something seriously when the author couldn't be bothered owning a copy of Strunk & White.
Ask for people's opinions, take what you get. It's more gracious, I find.
Bermanator
My favorite part is "Rants", I love that HE just lets it all hang out, writes what he means, and his "Fuck you if you can't take a Joke" attitude. I believe that he means what he says. I admire that. Wish more people felt the same. Less Bull, more Bite. Bravo!
Love the website, and the Chat room is one of the most interesting, and original, that I have ever been in. No trivia games, no age/sex checks, no IM's asking if my picture is on the web. (Actually, there's a site out there dealing with...no, never mind.)
I'm not entirely sure how I ended up in here, but I sure am glad I did. The last time I tried to look up Harlan's web site, my computer crashed. For humane reasons, I had it put down. I'm still not entirely sure it was a coincidence.
But until Them (and if You are Them, then you know who Them is) catches back up to me, I will risk the pain of having to euthanize another trusted computer, and I'LL BE BACK!
David Loftus: I got your tapes. Thank you for sending them. I had some trouble with the sound on a few pieces--perhaps it's just my tape player--but overall..
you have an amazing voice. Amazing. Not at all what I expected, for one thing--you sound YOUNGER than your posts. Heh. You should do this professionally, if you aren't doing it (enough--I realize you do SOME) already.
I loved the Sherlock Holmes voice. And the A.A. Milne was very sweet. I can still SEE the Bradbury stories. Heh. You changed your cadence significantly between the different kinds of stories. I enjoyed that.
Thank you.
Heather
I hope the brief basic writing analysis I gave you constitutes more than a "This guy sucks" because he doesn't. If he's 28 and been writing for years, I'd say that's trouble. Otherwise its the start of a long, exciting road that requires a lot more reading and writing.
I asked for some comments on what made this gentleman's work good or bad. (And I appreciate the input of those who offered me some tangible feedback.) I didn't ask for highbrow snottiness.
I don't even KNOW this guy. I read some of his stuff. I was, MOST OF ALL, impressed by his stick-to-it-tiveness. Some of what I read, I found interesting; some of what I read, I didn't find to my liking. I wanted to find out why; as I once read Ray Bradbury suggesting to read the good AND the bad, the fine AND the rough, to understand what was or wasn't being done.
I would have expected more than simply, "Oh, I don't like it."
I HEARD that already. If you're so finely tuned of intellect--those of you with so little to say--tell me WHY you don't like it. 'Course. I suppose that might require some of you breaking out of your topical ruts, hmm? Clearly, sometimes, I don't see a whole lot of difference between some of you lot and the intellectual assholes I've spent my life steering clear of. There's obviously a big difference between the things Harlan Ellison writes about and the people who gravitate to his writing.
Heather
Dear Lord...
Funny as that was, it was NOT me under a pseudonym and Rick can prove it.
Funny...poor guy.
Jay
"Shivers: A Critical Examination"
by Professor Limpid Tinglebum
Dean of Humanities
Peoria Community College
Moonlighter, a young writer who is reportedly "a big Bruce Willis fan," has with his latest novel, "Shivers," merged Bulwer-Lytton at his peak with the common detective story of the 1940s. Witness his opening first paragraph in which he personifies "a wail of sirens." The wail, which is a singular object, is growing closer. Moonlighter then singles out the inability of his protagonist, Billy, to distinguish between objects, specifically a "wail," "sirens" and "they." In this magical personification of a wail into an unexpected "they," Moonlighter gives the illusion that he is an amateur scribe. But then this is the main thrust of "Shivers." Have not we all in our own respective ways become unable to differentiate between a wail, sirens, and in that obfuscation, suddenly called whatever the sam hill it is merely a "they?" In his stunning attempt to transform the English language into an anarchic mess, Moonlighter has hit upon a formula that he maintains throughout 357 pages.
Consider Mr. Moonlighter's other metaphors. In the "Shivers" universe, cars "flip violently into a nearby building," thus suggesting a world in which vehicles turn over of their own accord. Police cars "barrel into the intersection," thereby colliding somehow while transporting itself to the intersection as if it were a barrel. But Mr. Moonlighter doesn't just stop there, for this spinning police car, defying all physical laws of the universe, approaches "from the south." This is not the stuff of sloppy prose, but a chronicle of a world in which objects do not travel in the manner that we are accustomed to. Mr. Moonlighter seems to be suggesting that we should watch our eyes as we cross an intersection. Before we know it, the world itself will go crazy or "shiver," as the title suggests.
Faisal, try rereading my modest proposal and recall what Swift's modest proposal actually "advocated." I have no more trust of government than most (having been a somewhat more than trivial gummint official myself)--but I've seen the alternative, too, and it's worse.
Aside: In case y'all hadn't caught on, that is a completely fake e-mail address. I figure that the guy who essentially invented commercial spam deserves to get any spam resulting from putting that address out. Rick and Heather know how to contact me. So, for that matter, does Belinda (Hi, Belinda! Do they still have you monitoring this board?). Harlan does, too, but asking Harlan how to contact one of his lawyers may not be the best way to brighten your day ;-)
Surprised that no one mentioned this so far (Then again, I only
noticed it as a link at the bottom of a different page that I
happened to be reading).
Reginald Rose, 'Twelve Angry Men' author, dead
http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/22/obit.rose.ap/index.html
DAVID LOFTUS: I never got the chance to thank you for pointing me to your essays on visiting West Africa. The section on the high death rate seemed timely when I read it, since my girlfriend had recently remarked on the death of a child in the village. Like the volunteer you mentioned in Guinea-Bissau, she's frustrated by how little difference she feels she can make. Her lack of command of the language is part of it (she had to learn 3 languages: French (for her reports to the govt), Wolof (the most commonly understood throughout the country) and Sereer (her village) -- she refers to herself as tri-unlingual; Still, the toughest part is acceptance that solidly entrenched notions are not going to evaporate overnight. In training, she was told that she would have to repeat and demonstrate her teachings many times before people would take her seriously. A little of that is due to being a woman in a patriarchal society, but most of it is due to the fact that, in their culture, it would be considered impolite to show disagreement, so they keep silent and continue to believe what they will. They are certainly *not* stupid, and their memories are flawless (one of the characteristics that tend to decrease in cultures where one has devices to record things for later reference), but cultural mores and superstition are hard to overcome. (Although, let's face it, deeply-held beliefs aren't changed quickly in any culture, including our own. Nevertheless, it's frustrating to hear evil spirits, rather than a dead animal in the well, blamed for illness). "...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The Peace Corps aphorism you mentioned at one point -- "...volunteers return from South America more politically aware, they return from Asia more spiritually aware, and the return from Africa laughing" -- seems particularly apropos. Then again, she's had that general attitude for as long as I've known her. She's had plenty of nasty things happen in her life, usually in bunches, so she adopted that outlook on the world long ago.
Maybe that's why she's well-suited to Peace Corps; I dunno.
"The toughest job you'll ever love" seems to pretty much hit the
nail on the head.
If I've calculated correctly, the 27th'll mark the halfway point
of her time in West Africa. Can't wait 'til I visit!
RICK: The archive stops at March 9th, but the earliest current
entry on the board is March 30th. Is there any way to view
messages posted between these two dates?
- Jeph
Anybody else seen the trailer for "Reign Of Fire"? Hollywood has disappointed me so many times, I can't help but hope this one doesn't suck. It's directed by Rob Bowman, of X Files fame.
L.
And a movie to reall look forward to, from a Reuters news story on the Disney/Pixar relationship:
"In the 2004 holiday season, audiences will see "The Incredibles," an action-adventure comedy from director Brad Bird ("The Iron Giant"). It centers on a family of superheroes who save the world while living a quiet suburban life."
Yay! A new Brad Bird movie!
RE: Moonlighter's Novel can be found at: http://bbs.simonsays.com/bbdocs/Forum4/HTML/009118.html
(Search for "Excerpt from my forthcoming novel, Shivers.")
I resisted reading this at first, but Barney's post made my teeth hurt at the mere thought, so of course, I had to know more. Let me say this through my aching incisors: I'm glad the guy is getting published. I really am. I won't even state the obvious about the kind of market these editors must have to select from.
I'm gonna go chew on some aluminum foil now.
L.
Jim,
Re: "explanations" for a Lynch movie.
Jackson Pollock said: "When I am in my painting I'm not aware of what I am doing."
I think David Lynch may be the first director to capitalize on this philosophy in the commercial market SUCCESSFULLY. And it's the only way to deal with him as a viewer. It's c'oitenly a vent'ia that woiks fa ME.
Well, I finally went to look at this writer that's so terrible. In all honesty I thought y'all were probably being a mite bit harsh on some poor kid.
I can admit when I'm wrong.
My disclaimer is, of course, that I can probably write no better. However, it does seem to me that the writer has a huge problem with matching things up. For example, at first he says he could hear sirens. Then later, he tilts his head and is sure there are more than one -- eh? Or how about, there are two cars, but when talking about both of them he says "its"? Ah, well...
The sentence that cracked me up was: "The glare from the lights blinded Billy momentarily, but then the blue strobes punched their way through the glare and his eyes readjusted to the night."
So, uh... the blue part of a cops light helps eyes to readjust to night-vision? Huh. I'll have to try that one.
Again - I'm probably not one to criticize others, but just thought I'd jump on the bandwagon for a moment. *hee*
--Zoë Rose
*** Heather *** I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here BUT what he is doing wrong is writing REALLY BAD PROSE. Doesn't matter where he's going with it. Doesn't matter if he is a nice guy or picks up litter in his neighborhood or builds dog houses for homeless puppies or cures AIDS. That one little sample is just screamingly bad writing. Harold Robbins and the comittee that wrote "Naked Came the Stranger" PHONE IN better work.
Do not take my word for it. Pick up a book by Robertson Davies or T.C. Boyle or John Updike [who doesn't float my boat but knows his way around a sentence] or Joyce or Lafferty or Twain or Westlake or Tiptree or Neruda or Naipaul or LeGuin or Ellroy or Sturgeon or Collier or DeHaven or DeLillo or... AND read any single page of any work from any of these folks and then go back and read that sample. REPEAT this process until you are unable to read that sample without developing a facial tic. You will have done yourself a favor.
If after trying this experiment or variations of it for a week you are unable to see why we are beating this person like a
red-headed stepchild I would strongly suggest you send me all of your rare 1st editions and take up gardening or synchronized swimming. In other words "use your time wisely" like they taught us in school.
Coda: After my initial post I started to wonder if this was a prank. It's the sort of sample that is so consistant I started to wonder if it was King or some protege was having everybody on. That one sample breaks almost every single suggestion King makes in "On Writing" on what not to do. It's painful.
And that should have read "this occurred," but somehow it came out "they occurred." But on second thought, perhaps they did occur after all.
JOINING THE MULHOLLAND DRIVE MUFF DIVE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
No pun intended about the lesbian sex scenes, but since you brought it up, I saw it partly as a wry retelling of the Narcissus legend. Consider that they occurred shortly before the last scene of the movie in which Rita has transmogrified into Camilla (I think) and, almost im