**Making a decision based on a gut feeling is a very important skill, even for Ph.D's. The fact of the matter is that not every situation you get into will allow you the time or the resources to research all possible outcomes. Sometimes being able to make a decision based on gut feel alone comes in very handy. **
Sure it does. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing issue, though.
Empirical reason need not breed automatons. There are no Spocks in real life. The most rational person in the world still needs to make decisions every day with less information than he or she would like to have.
That doesn't mean you can't still try to observe and analyze the facts as best you can and make what you consider to be the most logical decision.
My mechanic may be able to listen to my engine and intuitively know exactly what's wrong with it. The intuition is based largely on his own experiences and knowledge, though. However, if he can't tell just by the sound, I would very much prefer he use rational methods to isolate the problem. I'd much rather see him use more standard diagnostic tools than a ouija board.
If I'm having bad headaches, I would greatly prefer my doctor to recommenda CATscan before considering trepanning as a treatment option.
Kerry- Now that was an evil thing to do - fairly challenging me with a story idea so that it bounces around in my head and insists on being relayed through my fingertips. I've spent the last hour tapping out the story and have finally finished, eyes threatening to shut on me. E-mail me if ya wanna see what you caused! *hee*
--Dotty
--Zoë Rose
Cindiana Jones,
Got the screenplay, safe and sound. It'll be a week before I can read it, then I'll dive in.
Chuck
Rich~ I think you hit the nail on the head with the 'path of least resistance' argument.
Lurk~ You ever work in retail? You'll get over that 'people aren't stupid' trip in a heartbeat. Very soon after, you'll realize that by merely intellectualizing such concepts, you yourself are one of the very elitists you claim to despise. Now, go work on a budget and get over yourself. You think too much.
Chris~ Book learning goes a long way. Street smarts go a long way too. Making a decision based on a gut feeling is a very important skill, even for Ph.D's. The fact of the matter is that not every situation you get into will allow you the time or the resources to research all possible outcomes. Sometimes being able to make a decision based on gut feel alone comes in very handy. That being said, I think expecting politicians (who jig and jive on the latest poll like a dead man twisting on the gallows tree) to make informed decisions is just silly. George Dubya makes the motions with his mouth because some puppet master has a hand up his ass. If you watch, sometimes you can even see his words synch up with his lips. His decisions don't prevent scientists from doing their research either in this country illegally or in other countries, just as his opinions don't prevent me from practicing my faith (unless of course I'm in the military, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms).
And if you're an skeptic and an elitist, what the fuck are you doing moving to La La Land? This town is all about plastic - who's got it in their wallet, who's got in their face, who's got it in their ass.
Rich pt2~ I wish Webderland had a mirror for these quotes: "Power, like drugs and penises, can be abused." Classic, my friend. Right up there with one of our all time favorites, "Well, it's hardly the first time I've been on fire."
L.
XANADU
What grammatical impropriety? I recently saw some bone head place adversity where aversion belonged!
God what an IDIOT I felt like! Errr I mean, what an idiot she looked like.
lol!
You, Sir, have no reason to apologize about a miniscule grammatical faux pas. WE ALL know that you KNOW what is what.
Your friend,
Cindy
PS I'm elbow deep in rewrite # 8 and finding more and more to help me in your notes. I feel like you just gave me a bigger box of colors-- 64 crayons to work with rather than the 24 I had previously believed to be all I needed. Thanks again, buddy.
Actually, Kerry, I'm pretty sure I don't agree with Lurk at all. In fact, I'm quite sure of it. And while it's absolutely nothing personal toward Lurk to whom I bear no ill will whatsoever, I wouldn't want it to be thought I agreed with him at all.
The whole "you all agree, you just have different points of view" is just another brand of the intellectual relativism I feel is far too prevalent in our society.
There's a right and a wrong. We don't always know which is which but sometimes we do. The obsession with "acknowledging everyone's point of view" is just new-age, P.C. nonsense.
All IMHO, of course.:)
Thanks Heather,
That sounds like the same advice I gave her. I appreciate it.
:)
Alex Jay Berman,
My mom worked for the Veteran's Administration.. that's part of the irony that she's a deceased veteran's widow. She's been through the EEO and they haven't done much. The Union wimped out too. Maybe it's hard for some people to get fired up about defending the rights of a little old lady. When the bastards got her alone in their office to fire her they wanted her to sign something and she said she wouldn't sign anything. She said she intended to fight it.
Jim Davis,
THANK YOU.
:)
HELZ,
I told her what you said and I think it gave her heart. I'm with you, the documentation is enough to sink a barge.
LITTLE WASHU,
THANK YOU TOO! I am now dying to see THE LAST LAUGH.
:)
ALEX KRISLOV
I hope you're wrong. Boy, do I hope you're wrong on this one.
But I do understand the truth in what you wrote.
GUNTHER, ROB, JAY AND XANADU, I Love you all for being so sweet.
THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!!!
Cindy
"My science phone conversation of the week"
Me: So then the other person at the table said, "I was surprised. I thought the fifth element was boron. That, and the movie sucked."
Friend who has a doctorate: Well, I guess it would be, alphabetically.
Me: Hunh?
FWHAD: Boron's the fifth element alphabetically. The periodic table's arranged alphabetically, right?
Me: Didn't you take chemistry in high school?
FWHAD: No. I didn't take any science after Grade Nine. My math's really bad, too.
Oh, well. At least we got to discuss elements for ten minutes.
Jon
Chris L,
It's true, I have attacked "reason" to make my tepid point. But I'm not really against reason. I'm against being against unreason. I know that many here froth when they hear someone stand up and say humans descended from angels, not apes. So be it. But I froth when I hear "reason" put forth as the smug, oh-so-obvious answer to everything. It DOESN'T serve one every time, although it certainly is nice to have around.
But let's give the commons a break, when they turn to the psychic phonelines or go to Whitley Streiber seminars. They are not, finally, the problem. They are not the ones who will send your sons to Iraq or stripmine your hillside. I'd say the rage is better directed at the ones who should know better, not the ones who don't know at all.
Chris L and Lurk
I have to agree with Lynn here. In your efforts to make your points, and hardening your resolve to do so, you seem to be receding from the fact that you basically agree with each other. I think you just look at it from different points of view.
Joseph Finn
Thank you for the information regarding the Nebula Awards
Zoe dot dot
Astronomy, astrology and the alignments of three planets affecting the sleep of children. To me it sounds like a story waiting to be written.
Rich
Your version of the chair analogy reminds me of a real example, that of wearing a baseball cap backwards. I know they dont do a good job of keeping the sun off anyway, but backwards is just silly.
Random Musings from my chair
Kerry
Lurk,
You buy into the same false dichotomy so many others do.
Valuing reason does not make a person heartless or unimaginative. I embrace the scientific method but I am awed by the sight of the setting sun on a breezy May evening in the Badlands of South Dakota.
I hear echoes of your sentiment in my baseball work. It usually takes the form of "Why don't you eggheads stop studying numbers and watch a game every now and then?" As if analyzing something means a person can't enjoy it the way it's meant to be enjoyed.
Isaac Asimov was a genius and a great man of reason. He also took the time to collect some of the best and some of the lamest jokes in the world in his Treasury of Humor.
Reason doesn't preclude joy. Science is not the enemy of the emotions. You've set up a straw man here and you're getting nowhere with it.
Chris L,
I don't know about "intellectual relativism," but I doubt I embrace it. What I do embrace, and where you and I clearly differ, is that I don't necessarily want the "best and the brightest" in charge of everything. The best and the brightest, in my experience, are just as likely to fuck up as anyone else, and if they've been sanctified by society as being the best, and it's gone to their heads, which it usually does, they're even more likely to screw up on a scale that is often difficult to undo.
I have enough faith in the final authority of the human heart to not panic if the cranks and the wackos occasionally get their turn at the wheel. I can't imagine anything more boring (and probably dangerous) than a society run by eminently reasonable men and women. A kingdom of logicians, all markedly qualified in their highly-specialized fields...hey, maybe we'll even genetically engineer them someday.
That is the final turn in your utopia, Chris. A people free from the motivations of murder, chaos, and orgy. No more dancing round the maypole, no more blessings of baptism, no more divine madness. These things, should they fund your imagination, are just as valid as the big fat facts everyone is trumpeting as manna when informing your decisions.
So I'll take the warlock over the engineer anyday. I've seen the society Encyclopedia Man built these past 100 years, and I think the crystal fools could do nothing but help it.
I think the world's days are limited as I will now seek to defend Frank's use of the word "herd" and basically, jump all up and down on Lurk, a denizen of webderland I usually find intelligent (but, not at the moment).
It appears Lurk doesn't like the word "elitism" as it conjures up images of people abusing power and/or not using their intelligence or reason for the right...um...reasons. Given a choice between choosing the herd (those that go along with the rest of society without bothering to think of the consequences) or the elitists (those that gather the facts and come to a conclusion without worrying what everyone else is doing), I'm choosing the elitists every single time.
Look: Most people are not stupid. Some will beg to differ on this point, but most people are not stupid. People, like fluids, will take the path of least resistance. If it's easier to go along with everyone else and not cause waves or rock the boat or (insert cliche here) then most folks will do that. They don't have time to worry about the difference between astrology or astronomy because how is that going to help pay the bills? People aren't stupid, they're just lazy.
The elitists will take the time to figure out the difference between astrology and astronomy because it may not pay the bills, but it gives them knowledge. And as Saturday morning Schoolhouse Rocks taught me, knowledge is power. Power, like drugs and penises, can be abused, but for the most part, I think the elitists of the world are trying to work at separating themselves from the herd and trying to use their knowledge to tell us that astrology is superstition and has nothing to do with our lives whereas astronomy lets us know our place in the universe.
So, Lurk, I think identifying the herd is not a bad thing. Contrary to popular opinion some of us are better than others as mediocrity appears to be the norm. You don't have to work at being mediocre so I have no problems being associated with elitism.
One last thing. Lurk sarcastically mentions that the world would be a better place if we just used reason to govern ourselves. I would agree with that statement minus the sarcasm. The world would indeed be a better place if we used reason to govern ourselves. Just because we make decisions based on our gut (and I'm assuming you're not being ironic when you state that "we regret half of them later"; you don't include Bush's "gut" call as being one those regretful decisions?) doesn't mean we shouldn't rule out reason because in the end, reason will always serve you.
Xanadu,
You're welcome. I'm gonna use it 'til I can't use it no more.
Holy crud - please ignore the complete lack of grammatical ability exhibited by my last post...
rich: Thank's for keeping my little conceit alive - I laugh evry time someone mentions it...
Lurk,
I used the term "intellectual relativism" before and it seems to me it's something you fully embrace.
I hate to tell you this but there really are people in the world who know better than other people. Chances are overwhelming I know morethan you do about baseball. It is even more certain (as in 100%) that Stephen Hawking knows more about astronomy than I do.
My opinion on astronomy or related issues is NOT as good as Dr. Hawking's. It is inferior. If I take one position and he says I'm wrong, I'm willing to bet the bank that he's in the right. Why? He knows better. He's smarter and he has the facts.
Who do I want making the decisions in the world? The best and the brightest. The most qualified. That doesn't mean only academicians and intellectuals. The best and brightest person to make a decision about my car is my mechanic. He needs to decide what to do when fixing my car, not me. I don't know enough. I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the skill. I don't have the facts. He does.
I am definitely an elitist by that standard. I think that for any particular issue, most people are completely unqualified to offer a useful opinion or to make a decision. I'd still support their right to do it under most circumstances but that's not the optimal strategy for a functioning society.
On Astrology: My main problem with 'beliefs' like that of astrology is that it completely puts the blame or praise on events we can't control - celestial stuff. I suppose that really is like any religion... I suppose that's why I'm not real religious.
For the most part, I figure let people have fun with what they want to believe. Personally? Doesn't do it for me. But hey, whatever floats their boats.
Warning- Going off on a tangent...
MY problem with it is that people don't know the difference between astrology and astronomy, nor do many care. I work in a planetarium, and it's hard to keep a straight face when answering the questions of the chaperoning parents of a third grade class: "So I heard on the news that there are three planets in the sky right now. When they align will that affect the children's dreams?" Or some such nonsense.
It's even harder to answer the question that I've gotten from more adults than kids, when the lights are all out and the stars are up: "Ok, so where's Earth?"
People often come up to me after star shows and ask if I'm an astrologer. It takes a long time to convince them I'm not an astrologer at all, nor do I take any stock in what astrology says.
Believe what makes you happy, I say - but don't let it dumb you to the point of not understanding simple things like the difference between astronomy and astrology - though both are highly theoretical, at least one of makes an attempt to explain things.
Sorry 'bout the rant. The astrology thing just gets on my nerves sometimes.
--Zoë Rose
>When a President who doesn't know anything about the subject determines national policy regarding cloning, people might die.<
I'm gonna defend the usually defenseless here, and cast my vote of appreciation that Dubya is making a decision based on his own moral compass. Whether or not you think it's a stupid decision, sometimes people make the calls from their gut, not from the balance sheet of facts and figures. Bush feels cloning is immoral for his own and his consituency's spiritual reasons. That must be respected. That's actually leadership, from one who is generally considered unable to lead.
A big step towards balance is understanding that reason in the end doesn't always serve you. I'd wager that any of the really important life decisions made by anyone here were completely devoid of reason. That's why we regret half of them later...
>My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place<
Elitism. It's both cozy and happily isolating, isn't it, to believe that one is a member of the select few who THINK. And it's sure easy to shake our heads at the witless saps who don't require EVIDENCE at every turn.
Unfortunately, elitists are often on the sidelines of history, doing nothing but bitching about how stupid everyone is and if we just used REASON all of our problems would be solved.
Um, Frank, once the conversation moves into the realm of calling people "herds," I back out. Herds usually require pens, and thinking one is grander than the sheep leads to delusions, and occasionally, if one has power, actions. You're in good company with history there.
I can just imagine what things would be like if the we the denizens of Webderland ran the world. Corraling those thinkless herds, so to speak. Judging from the weekly flame wars on this board, we see little more than a lot of screaming about how stupid everyone is and if we just used REASON all of our problems....never mind.
I'm gonna have to go with Lynn on this one: You boys are preaching to the choir.
"That chair is made to sit on."
"Yeah, but some people sit on it backards."
"They're entitled to sit on it any way they please."
"Yeah, but the chair is made for people to sit properly; what'll happen if everyone turns their chair around and starts sittin' on 'em backards?"
"They'll be comfortable?"
"Well, reasonable people sit aright."
"Sittin' backards don't hurt me none."
"Well, pretty soon people wanna be leanin' in 'em, too. Then where will we be? That's right. Them legs'll get weak and won't be right for sittin' right nohow."
Thanks to the Chair Analogy as the hole it's in continues to get deeper.
Chris: " My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place."
They never did, at any point in our history. And to cap it off, they likely never will. Most people don't WANT to think - and you can lead them horses to all the scientific/rational water you wish and they will refuse to take that drink.
This is not to say we shouldn't strive to educate all who are willing, but don't despair too seriously because most prefer idiocy.
Chris, you have an affecting effect on me.
Jim,
Affect/Effect still drives me ape shit.
I don't think I'll ever figure it out.
It's my kryptonite.
Lynn,
Sure I want people to think for themselves. My point, however, is that way too many people don't even know how to think in the first place. Either through their own inability or through a fault in their education, they were never given the tools to properly evaluate the world in which they live, how to separate fact from fiction, science from nonsense.
Oops. I meant to write "the stars in their courses DO affect us," not "effect." (See, David--I'm hardly a grammar maven, either.)
NOW it's time for dinner.
Chris~ So what you're saying is you want people to stop being sheep and think for themselves, yes? Take a number, the line forms to the left.
Jim~ Don't track mud on the carpet, keep your hands to yourself, and make sure to say thank you to the nice Mr. Wyatt for letting you make a mess of his livingroom.
::sigh::
L.
It's all about proof. Evidence.
The problems crop up when people base their decisions on something other than evidence.
It's an attitude I (and everyone else) encounter(s) every day.
"Willie Mays was hurt by his home park. He'd have hit more home runs than Aaron if he played somewhere else - that was a terrible ballpark."
"But Mays hit more home runs at home than on the road. And his Giants' teammates as well as their opponents hit just about as many home runs there as they did on the road. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest it was a bad home run park."
"I don't care about any of that - I know what I saw. That was a terrible home run park."
Now that's pretty harmless. Nobody is likely to be harmed because somebody makes a mistake in their perception of a baseball stadium. The problem is the way they go about making decisions and forming opinions. The facts don't matter. They just want to believe what they want to believe. That's what's dangerous.
"Blacks are inferior to whites."
"There's no evidence to suggest that's true."
"I don't care, I still think it's true."
I'm not claiming we can know everything or even 1% of everything. We don't and we never will. But if we don't aspire to make our decisions rationally, by studying the evidence available to us as best we can, we're in serious trouble.
When the AMA gives out shoddy diet advice based much less on hard evidence than it is on money and political expediency, people die.
When a President who doesn't know anything about the subject determines national policy regarding cloning, people might die.
I strongly recommend Carl Sagan's _Demon Haunted World_ for a great read on this very subject.
Oh Mom, WE'RE JUST PLAYIN'. (Next you're gonna tell us to get washed up fer dinner. Are we havin' spaghetti tonight? Can Bobby stay over? His Mom said it was ok. Huh, can he?)
(Actually, I DO have to get something to eat, now that I mention it...)
Lurk wrote: "The superstitious unwashed that you seem to fear had little to do with designing tanks, gas chambers, or nuclear weaponry. Nor were the decisions to use these toys prompted by casting rune stones or reading star charts."
To a certain extent, that's true. Technology and science HAVE been employed towards some pretty heinous ends. But were the Death Camps, for example, REALLY the result of rational thinking? You could argue the opposite, that the MOTIVATIONS behind them were based solely in superstition and fear. The belief that Jews were a bacillus and needed to be exterminated for the good of civilization sounds pretty irrational to me.
Hey you guys. Tone it down a smidge. You're getting all toasty about something you agree on, that life-changing decisions shouldn't be made based on the position of distant celestial bodies. Anyone that does so is setting themselves up for a fall. Science is a tool, and as such, is merciless in the hands of the merciless.
At least you guys don't have to put up with a President who thinks your religion isn't "real." (Translation: My beliefs are religion, yours are superstitious hogwash. Thank you for that lesson in logic, Dubya.)
L.
Astrology isn't based on sound reasoning, and that is the point, I'd think. Things that are anti-reason should be given a once over--especially, if we do actually live in a sceptical nation.
There is a lot of proof that Astrology is bunkum, but the herd swallows the divining coin anyway. See, we LIKE to believe in things in this country; even if those things are beyond rational thinking. And you don't have to be a Sceptic to understand this.
LURK: I DO agree the nonsensical, the mystical, and the absurd have a place in our lives. Hell, I wouldn't read sf/fantasy if I didn't. But I have to go with Chris on this: When nonrational beliefs start influencing decisions on public policy, it's time to be worried. Call me a fool, but I'd rather have Spock than Nostradamus running the show--at least there's some basis for dialogue with the former. If leaders believe that they're getting marching orders from the the Heavens, why should they listen to ANYONE here on Earth? (See the latest response of the Catholic Church to the molestation crisis.)
>Ignorance is not something to embrace and it isn't harmless<
Chris L, maybe I'm reading this the wrong way. But last I looked, the vast swaths of warfare and destruction that our past century endured, including the mass murder of countless millions of innocents, was conducted by well-educated individuals, many with advanced degrees in science and math.
The superstitious unwashed that you seem to fear had little to do with designing tanks, gas chambers, or nuclear weaponry. Nor were the decisions to use these toys prompted by casting rune stones or reading star charts.
It also took a fair degree of brains and expensive college educations to trash the environment with air, water, and land pollution, mow down the rainforests, drive numerous species into extinction, and poison everyone's immune systems for probably the next century. This was all done with a calculator, not a crystal ball.
To suggest that elections are going to be taken over by professed UFO abductees and creationists seems to me a pretty weak argument. Given these past actions by our friends in the Ivy League, and their counterparts in Europe, could it have been any worse?
Jim, I wasn't defending astrology as a subsitute for science. What I was defending was the right of nonsensical, the mystical, and the absurd to not be heralded as the downfall of humanity. Along with our formulas and theorems, we must also live with our demons and our shadows.
Now, one can climb into the ring waving their copy of "The Skeptical Inquirer," but should they expect any more leverage with the final judgement than the goon with the Bible or the dude with the guitar? Rationalism and its scientific tropes have done wondrous things, expecially for commerce, health care, and the national defense, but when it comes to explaining the human heart, and its ongoing wrassle between passion and despair, it's as worthless as week-old toast.
So yeah, I get a little honked when I'm told my brains are falling to the floor because I'm no more threatened by the nitwits who believe the Earth is flat than I am the great white fathers who promote the efficacy of controlled nuclear theaters. I personally am growing a little weary of running to the math book for every answer, and I don't think having Spock and the Professor from Gilligan's Island running the show is going to make things any better.
Viva Lunacy.
The problem, Xanadu, is not that Joe Schmo in Walla Walla believes in astrology. It's that Joe Schmo likes to vote for people who "think like him" which means that we wind up with a country where the people who make decisions that impact our lives are unqualified to do so. Science policy is determined by panels of Congresspersons ignorant of even the most basic scientific principles.
Ignorance is not something to embrace and it isn't harmless. We live in a unique time in the sense that we now have developed the capacity to destroy our own race or at least very large swaths of it with relative ease. This is not the time to hunked down on our haunches and tremble in fear at the thunderbolts angry gods cast down at us.
I'll briefly follow up my 'just plain sick SOBs' statement. I'm referring to the men and women that have a perfectly decent childhood, a strong morale upbringing, a good job, a loving husband/wife and kids...
...and yet skinning little children alive in their basements remains their favourite hobbies alongside golf and sailing.
LURK: The thing is, the stars in their courses DO effect us in some way, and scientists know why. It's called gravity, and it states that every bit of matter in the universe exerts its pull, however small, on living beings here on Earth. (And vice versa).
The problem is, that's not what astrology says. It claims that a specific alignment of celestial bodies in the sky can determine our personalities, our behaviors, and even whether we live or die. And that simply has no scientific validity. There's not one shred of proof that people born under a particular astrological sign differ in any way from the rest of the population. Now, we can call a belief in astrology harmless and fun, and I'd (mostly) agree. But should we deny the lack of evidence for it, and claim that it has an equal footing with astronomy, cosmology, or any of the other hard sciences?
FRANK:
"I have always wondered why America creates so many serial killers in the first place"
Well, overpopulation could have a lot to do with it, but that's as tired an argument as the 'evil media' excuse. You don't have to look any farther than China to see how sparse America is in comparison. I really do believe most serial killers have been treated like shit for the majority of their lives, suffering non-stop abuse, humiliation and belittlement a la Ben Stiller in MEET THE PARENTS until the urge to remove some people's faces becomes incredibly dominant.
And then, of course, some of them are just plain sick SOBs.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
If you can see astrology (or any divinatory system) as a tool, take from it what you need, be it entertainment or spiritual sustenance, it is not the end of civilization as we know it. If you start planning where to aim the bombs as a direct result of the alignment of Saturn in Sagittarius, then you're whacked. Such things are merely reflections of what we take into them. What is the quote? A monkey can look into a mirror but should not expect a saint to peer back at him?
L.
Just a quick thought – I agree with Lurk, we're not gonna die because our species is full of folk who live life intuitively, rather than rationally or logically. Has there ever really been an "Age of Reason"? Where a significant majority of the general populace has had more than a passing notion of science and the scientific method? I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
BUT, I 'm not worried for the reason Chris L. states – we don't get to vote on reality. Whether _I_, or anyone else, believes in dark matter, or anti-gravity, or anti-matter, or astrology doesn't change what's actually going on out there. Reality IS.
What scares the hell outta me is when the tin-foil-helmet-people gain control of scientific funding and science education, when the idjits try to warp our perception of reality, or bend the principles of the scientific method to advance a predetermined agenda - THEN we're fucked. It's one thing for an individual to champion a far-out theory, it's another altogether for a society to deny the mainstream scientific thought on a subject, and to fail to teach it.
Lurk,
An open mind is good.
Keeping your mind so open that your brain falls out is bad.
Life is not just an opinion. You don't just get to vote on reality. You gather evidence and evaluate the facts.
Astrology had been around many centuries, has been studied for many centuries and has never, in any way, shape or form, been proven to have any validity as a predictive tool.
I know we are steeped in a culture that prides itself on intellectual relativism where everybody is right about everything. That's part of the problem, not the solution.
>The fact that 60% of Americns don't accept astrology is valid (meaning that 40% do) is hailed as good news. We're all dead.<
Open minds, now. Astrology has been around for a long time, very long, and the fact that it isn't qualified by experimental science doesn't make it less a part of the human scene. People believe in a lot of things not measurable by the microscope...I wouldn't say "we are all dead" because of it.
Not being lab-certified is often not a requirement with "hard science," either. Witness dark matter, yet another creation by the research world to fit their math, despite not one shred of evidence for its existence (anyone remember ether?) You'd have a better chance proving that the moon in Scorpio makes you horny.
Someday, and that day may never come, we may actually find out that the stars in their courses DO affect us in some way. There's plenty left out there for us to not have a clue about. I believe radio waves were a complete unknown for about 98% of recorded human history. For now, astrology is crude, it's escapist, and it's also silly fun.
I'll take the mystic dancing of the quirkies over the dull march of the uber-rational. They dress better, too.
Made any decisions about school?
H
Wanna raise your blood pressure? Take a check on the latest survey regarding the state of scientific literacy in America.
http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-science0430.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
How bad is it? The fact that 60% of Americns don't accept astrology is valid (meaning that 40% do) is hailed as good news.
We're all dead.
Cindy..
I thought you were telling us a story at first. It sounds so unreal. Make sure your mom stays healthy. I'm sure she has connections..
Meanwhile, butttinsky here, says..
CHARLIE.. CEP.. You listening?
Cindy, tell your mother to make some time for cooldown. Forty-four years is a hell of a long time. Then.. go kick somebody's butt.
Ya dig?
Thanks for sharing.
Heather
I have always wondered why America creates so many serial killers in the first place: Maybe it is our sense of selfish superiority, or the way people are treated like property. More than likely the way we downplay the need for better mental health services, in this dictatorial "marketplace".
But I would never blame the media. Too many facts that get in the way of such a lame arguement. Like Frank Zappa said, since there have been so many love songs written, then why haven't people been programmed to love?
Changing Lanes: Great film, marvelous acting, great way of handling the concept of stress and how it eats at you; especially when things all seem to be going down the sewer. I give it plunger up.
----------------------
I also recieved that dreaded email. Does anyone know if that thing actually was directed from Africa?
-----------------------
Finally saw, Lord Of The Rings. What an amazing use of special effects, no wonder it won all those Oscars. Beginning to think that Peter Jackson might have let Opie screw him. Petey Jackson, you are one bad man. This had to be the hardest movie ever to make. The thought scares the hell out of me. Put er there Petey. Now that's dedication; and to think: He made THREE Rings movies in a row! Yikes. Now I can see why Neil Labute only does small films.
Bermanator,
Don't know if that ninja site is for real or not, but _it_is_hilarious. For those that haven't seen it (www.realultimatepower.net) Joe Bob Rich says check it out.
Also, Bermie-nator, what was the name of that book again you mentioned quite awhile ago regarding serial killers and their upbringing/motivation? I hope you know what I'm talking about 'cause I believe it was you that mentioned the book. If it wasn't you, then ignore me and I'll do some sleuthing.
(When I worked in a bookstore, I always hated the customer who came up to me and asked, "Do you have that book? The one that was on that show the other day? Not sure which show and I'm not sure what the book's about, but it was written by a doctor. I think. It had a blue cover. Or, maybe it was green because the television color hasn't been too good. Do you have it?")
Washu,
A) You are correct on Ackerman. Which, to put on my personal opinion hat, is just an example of a certain tin ear he has toward words & phrases.
B) I prefer to think of it as a dimunation rather than an abbreviation. Gives the impression that the genre is till pointy rockets whizing around space with Tom Corbett.
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn- I _love_ the "I got flamed by" t-shirt idea! My brother'd be so jealous... in a little online weblog (bloglet), he wrote: "I just learned that my sister got into a flamewar with Harlan Ellison. ::cries:: I've never been so happy in my life!" Where I don't know as it was a 'flamewar' (especially on HE's low-gear end), it certainly was funny. Never knew he was a HE fan 'til this!
--Undottified
--Zoe Rose
Get your Smoking E tshirt today.
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
You guys have way too much time on your hands.
I picked up the term "schwag" from local radio, and in that context it means promotional items generally of little or no value that is given away to the masses (e.g. bumperstickers, cheap tshirts, drink insulators, magnets, program directors, etc).
In *this* case, schwag is indeed promotional in nature, but you have to pay for it, which means it is of a much higher quality than your usual schwag. And the E is Smoking as a direct result of your kind and loving nature here on the Webderland board. Yes, we are still bandying about the idea of the "I got flamed by Harlan Ellison and all I got was this lousy tshirt" shirt. Of course, the url would only be given to those who have actually *survived* the loving tongue caress of our esteemed patron, and lived to tell the tale.
Now get back to work. ALLYA DAGOS! GET OFF ME LAWN!
L.
Jim: I knew you were kidding. Just wanted to let everyone know why I haven't been exhibiting my usual ebullience (or verbosity) in this venue. At least I get to dance up the sun tomorrow with my morris team (May Day, ya know), and two friends have asked if I want to sing the National Anthem with them before a minor league game at the end of the month. Cheers!
Y'know, the term 'sci-fi' was actually coined for the first time by a film producer...Forrest Ackerman, I think. Anybody is welcome to correct me on this.
Never knew so many people could despise an abbreviation...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Is THAT why the "E" is smoking?
So Lynn is now selling DRUGS to raise money for KICK? Oy vey...
DAVID: Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I hope you don't think *I* was trying to be dogmatic or anything--I was just kidding around. (Though I DO enjoy a good grammar rumble now and then...)
CINDY: I can't believe, in this litigious age, that people actually think they can GET AWAY with this shit. I hope a lawyer takes your mom's case, and they sue the Holy Hell out of these dirtbags.
Lorin & Xanadu,
I think Schwag is a different term than Swag. Appears to be a word for the lowest grade of weed, according to a bunch of stoner web pages.
Regards,
Joseph
CINDY: What agency does your mother work for?
She should go to the EEO office. She should go to the union. And I'm certain a good lawyer will step up.
Re: GAE's obit in the Cleveland Plain-Dealer -- since when does any part of "When Gravity Fails" take place on Bourbon Street?
Gosh, I really need to do some WORK this week...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure SCHWAG = SWAG = (from bartlebys.com)
"NOUN: 1a. An ornamental drapery or curtain draped in a curve between two points. b. An ornamental festoon of flowers or fruit. c. A carving or plaster molding of such an ornament. 2. Slang Stolen property; loot. 3. Australian The pack or bundle containing the personal belongings of a swagman. 4. Slang Herbal tea in a plastic sandwich bag sold as marijuana to an unsuspecting customer.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: swagged, swag·ging, swags
1. Chiefly British To lurch or sway. 2. Australian To travel about with a pack or swag.
ETYMOLOGY: Probably of Scandinavian origin."
Cindy: What happened to your mother just plain sucks. But after 44 years and the last few years of abuse, it may well be a relief. As long as they're not screwing up her pension, that is...
I knew several soldiers during my time in the Army -- good, solid, hardworking NCOs, maybe they didn't win medals for valor in combat but certainly had never embarrassed the uniform they wore -- who were driven out after 18 or 19 years to keep them from getting their 20 years in. It's not right, it's not fair, and if your mom has all that documentation then she needs to find a lawyer who will take the case. Once the lawyers for the VA get around to reviewing her documents during discovery, they'll make a settlement offer.
Ok, I'm going to risk sounding even stupider than is my normal want and custom...
I understand the meaning from the context - but I am curious - does anyone know the origin of the term "schwag"?
No particular need - just general curiosity.
Thanx in advance.
Jim:
It ain't age. It's exhaustion and low spirits. I too have been shifted into a much shittier position at my day job. My book is stuck in Editing Limbo (the publisher fired one editor and just hired another one). I can't get to this board or anywhere else on the Web as often as I used to -- as often as I'd like -- and I need a big change. I think I'll go get a Ph.D to stave off boredom; people keep mistaking me for a professor, anyway. But that'll take some groundwork. * sigh * And I don't claim to be an expert on rules of grammar, just a natural writer. No point in being dogmatic about it, anyhow....
That, and they used the mutant term "sci-fi" in the hed. Oh well, it's still decent obit. Though I'll admit that I'm intrigued to find out how you manage to drop out of Yale twice, as the obit says Mr. Effinger did.
Regards,
Joseph
Well, well--a prophet DOES have honor in his hometown. For the Plain Dealer obit on GAE, check out
http://www.cleveland.com/obituary/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1020159013235072.xml
Okay, so they misspelled Harlan's name.
HEAR YE! HEAR YE! HEAR YE!
GETcher WEBderLAND SCHWAG Here! *T*shirts! BALLcaps! COFfee mugs! TOTE bags! FIVE, count 'em, FIVE dollars of EVERY item purchased goes to KICK! GETcher SMOKING 'E NOW!
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
Limited Time Only! Stainless Steel Travel Mugs, Frosted Rootbeer Mugs, and collared Golf Shirts! Get 'em while they're hot!
Alex: Point taken. But we gotta keep the faith, don't we? (he says, plaintively, knowing Alex is more right than wrong...)
CINDY: My sympathies. We seem to be living in a world that is growing more faster and hyperactive with each passing minute, sacrificing dignity and decency in the process. Funny enough - your story reminded me of the silent film THE LAST LAUGH, where the master bellhop -after serving countless years at a prestigious hotel - is suddenly demoted to the degrading postion of restroom attendant. The total cluelessness (or apathy?) of his superiors to how this will affect him emotionally, physically and financially seems to be more in effect today than ever before.
Not that any of this helps, but hope it brightens your world a little.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Xanadu, er, MAYBE Cindy's mother will do well once she gets a lawyer--and maybe not. The Federal government, in its wisdom, sometimes grants itself exceptions from the laws the rest of us must follow. I hope Cindy's mom finds a good lawyer, but I know from long experience that the law is a screwy thing, and justice is often a surprising by-product of its workings, rather than its inevitable goal.
Not to be a cynic, mind you. It's just that I come from a family of lawyers. Father, brother, twin sister, all in law. (Sorry, none in Texas.)
Rick, let me add my belated congrats on the new job.
--Alex
Cindy,
Keep looking for a lawyer - there will be one who will take the case, and your mom will do well then.
Bureaucratic fucknuts...that's all I gotta say.
Sorry, Cindiana
Cindy,
Your mom:
Rant by all means! That utterly sucks and I'm very sorry to hear it. I wish there was more machinery (for the little I know in that area there is) to deal more readily with that kind of blatant, low, cut-throat sovereignty...whether dealing with a government office or the private sector.
Cindy,
Your mom:
Rant by all means! That utterly sucks and I'm very sorry to hear it. I wish there was more machinery (for the little I know in that area there is) to deal more readily with that kind of blatant, low, cut-throat sovereignty...whether dealing with a government office or the private sector.
Oh, and Cindy:
what fucking assholes. You and your mother have my sympathy.
LORIN:
"Wizard's First Rule" is Terry Goodkind. One of my favourite "epic fantasy" series, but it's HIGH on blood and gore and sex (the first novel contains a 100-something page torture scene)
My favourite authors in fantasy are, however:
URSULA K. LE GUIN -- Wizard of Earthsea being the most known, but most of her other books are beautiful too.
ROBIN HOBB (aka Megan Lindholm) -- The Farseer Trilogy (Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin and Assassin's Quest) and The Liveship Traders (Ship of Magic, Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny) are some of the most beautifully written books ever; they're finished trilogies instead of ever-continuing series like Sword of Truth or (ugh) Wheel of Time; and for a change, they concern themselves not with the fate of an entire world, but just a small town.
and, of course
GEORGE R. R. MARTIN -- A Song of Ice and Fire (currently out: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords). Best. Epic. Fantasy. Ever.
(all in my opinion of course)
MY MOM
Who worked for the Federal government for 44 years got fired today. They decided that they didn't want her to get any more money at retirement so they started dogging her about ten years ago. The last thing they came up with was that she made two KEY stroke errors in two weeks... it didn't matter that she corrected them before she sent the job off. She was the only one in the office whose work they have been scrutinizing. Also one of the men in her office stole her umbrella.. a 20 year old BEN HOGAN umbrella in pristine condition that she had gotten from Dillards during a promotional deal in the early eighties. The guy took it a year or so earlier, then when the heat started getting turned up at the office he brought it back and put it in a place where she would have to walk by it. She asked him where he had gotten the umbrella and he said his uh sister had given it to him. So she told her supervisor about the incident and the supervisor wrote my mom up for " accusing him of taking her umbrella". They said things to her like, " I'm going to fire you by next March." And " Old woman." and " Some of us aren't going to be here much longer." Constant harrassment for YEARS. Some of it stemed from a time when she filed a greivance because she was denied a promotion ( she remains a GS9 after all these years), she had been the only one who had filled out the application correctly. The day after they were due the supervisor personally rewrote all of the other applications for everyone in the unit and put them in the proper form. They were promoted, Mom was not.
There was more and worse. One man told her that he knew people who could take care of her and they'd put the body in the trunk and haul it to Mexico where nobody would ever find out.
So today around one they called her into the sub-director's office, the director refused to see her. There were four or five of them there and she was alone when they told her that they were removing her from her position. They demanded her badge and the sticker from her car.
Never mind that she had been awarded and commended and people from Washington requested to deal with her on matters that required speed and efficiency. Never mind that she was working at the Veterans Administration and her second and last husband who died in 1969 was a veteran.
44 years. That is what kills me. They kick her out on the street like a bum who refuses to work.
She has about fifteen pounds of documentation for the treatment she's recieved over the last ten years.. alot of it is SMOKING, but she can't even find an attorney to take the case in Austin.
Go Figure.
Sorry for the rant y'all ,
Cindy
Re: Help us get millions of $$$ out of Nigeria fraud.
The version I've seen dresses it up with a story about how they need somebody honest and reliable to let them do the transfer, because the last guy they tried to work with vanished with a huge chunk of their money. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more. It's nice to imagine that the only people who'd fall for something like this are clowns who actually think they'll be able to skip the country with millions ripped off from the Nigerians. You know--the ones who deserve to fall for it.
TR
Sorry, forgot to mention that Lori is divorced.
Lynn,
"Chuck~ Saw Caesar sippin' a piña colada last night at Trader Vic's, did you? Was his hair p e r f e c t?"
Yep. What there was of it. The older he gets, the balder he gets.
By the way, where do I find the T-shirts, etc. you spoke of with some proceeds going to KICK? I went to Digital Carrion, but I didn't see anything there. I did see your photo. LOVE the tinted glasses.
Darwin's drunk again, eh? Must be hanging out with Caesar.
Now, for all, a little venting. Gotta get this out. I was having a telephone chat with a freind of mine, Linda. We've known each other since college. A longer time than I can believe. How did so much time pass? Linda was upset. She's jewish, quite orthodox, but not a tight-ass about it. Her niece, Lori, a rather mixed-up young lady, married a guy outside the faith. Not that I think that's all that shocking, I'm a goy myself. but Lori has been having a problem with her oldest daughter, Boston. The little girl can't sleep, keeps waking her mother at all hours.
Well now we know why. Her rotten, waste of protoplasm father has been telling Boston that jews are people of the devil, and that Lori is a whore, and that her loving aunt and grandmother will harm her. He says he gets this from his church.
You hear about this shit going on, about how someone takes their particular "bully pulpit", in this case an altar, and turns it into a way to broadcast ugliness to everyone there. And there seems to be no end of people who swallow this as "gospel" truth. That's why I enjoyed the humor tonight, more than usual. I needed a laugh.
Okay, vent closed. Thanks all, for coming to this oasis, and thanks to Rick for creating it, and Harlan for inspiring it. Keeps the slope-headed, knuckle-dragging monkeyboys at bay.
Chuck
Rich,
The website you mentioned is down at the moment, I'll keep trying!
CHUCK!!! My screenplay is probably in your email box as we speak. I THANK you for reading it.
Cindy
Kerry,
There is not always a Grandmaster award presented (technically, it is not a Nebula, but is presented as part of the awards ceremony). You correct that the nomination is by the President of the SFWA, after which it needs to be approved by a majority of SFWA officers. Here's the year-by-eyar list of recipients:
Robert A. Heinlein (1974)
Jack Williamson (1975)
Clifford D. Simak (1976)
L. Sprague de Camp (1978)
Fritz Leiber (1981)
Andre Norton (1983)
Arthur C. Clarke (1985)
Isaac Asimov (1986)
Alfred Bester (1987)
Ray Bradbury (1988)
Lester Del Rey (1990)
Frederik Pohl (1992)
Damon Knight (1994)
A.E. Van Vogt (1995)
Jack Vance (1996)
Poul Anderson (1997)
Hal Clement (Harry Stubbs) (1998)
Brian W. Aldiss (1999)
Philip José Farmer (2000)
Considering this past few months, I think they need to pick up the pace. It's a shame that more great writers haven't been recognized in this manner. Anyway the rules that cover Grandmaster & President awards are 20 and 21, found here:
http://www.sfwa.org/awards/rules.htm
Regards,
Joseph
With all these recommendations for Ginger Snaps, I’ve now ordered it. It sounds like an intelligent, well acted movie.
Thanks for the mini-reviews and recommendations from all here. Webderland is a mine of information, and it’s everyone that makes it that way.
Cheers,
Kerry
Hi all,
Could someone answer a question for me? In a post was the mention of a Nebula Award that was not being given this year. I notice, now that the awards are out, that the Grand Master Award and the Bradbury Award were not given, but a Presidents Award was.
As the Grand Master Award is nominated by the President of the SWFA (I think), what is the idea of not having the Grand Master Award this year, and of having a Presidents award?
I’ve had a look around, but can’t find anything about this, and it intrigued me.
Cheers,
Kerry
Some food for thought courtesy Darkhorizons.com
"Dragnet (TV): Emmy-winning "Law & Order" producer Dick Wolf and Studios USA are developing a prime time new updated take on the classic 50's & 60's cop drama with Wolf expected to write the pilot and serve as exec producer. It's expected Wolf's show "will be more of a revisualization of "Dragnet" as a modern-day Los Angeles cop drama rather than a simple remake of the old series". The original became famous for its very straight-ahead procedural style to cop dramas with Jack Webb starring as Sgt. Joe Friday. The show is not expected to begin airing till late 2003 at the earliest even though a network deal should be announced relatively shortly. Thanks to 'Miqque'"
Cindy... Hmmm...it was more an IMPRESSION. I can't cite a specific something..hmm..I think women, in general, fall into personae traps. Hmm.. HMM... I shall pray on the matter.
You speak like an expert, in your screenplay. I think...because..and bear with me I'm trying to figure this out as I write..you were very familiar with the landscape (language, people, situations) of which you wrote, in your screenplay; I heard no..hmm..hesitation.
Sometimes, I hear.. hesitation in the way you speak on the forum. I'm sure that's not all of it..but..
And as I know you ARE an expert--being a parent; being a spouse; being the wife of a trooper (on a number of levels--he sounds pretty cool, your babelet), the sound in your screenplay bespoke your..depth.
Does that make sense, Cindy?
The movie, "Ginger Snaps"... Nobody talked about "Ginger Snaps" when it came out, here in Canada. I can't recall WHY I went to see it--I worried, as I think it's a Canadian film, isn't it?--it might be..ech.. or another one of these stupid teen type horror movies with blood and breasts--you know the type.
But I was AMAZED by it. It really creeped me out. And I BATHED in the wonderful sensation of watching TWO, count em, TWO good female performances. I just couldn't figure out why I didn't hear more about it. Too many movies floating around in the universe, I guess.
The movie, "Quo Vadis... Oh, and I watched Christians die the other night. I mean, for REAL. It felt real and it really upset me. What asses the Romans were..in "Quo Vadis." Some BRILLANT performances though. The movie is in subtitles. I sat and watched it as a Catholic church charity screening--not planned, just that I wanted to see this movie--at the Towne Cinema. I think MOST of the people there WEREN'T reading the subtitles; I'm not sure what language it is.
Something went through me ...like a soul..when it came to the Christians and the lions..and other atrocities. This concept of watching people die..as an event, as a sport..that fucks with my head.
I was in the library the other day. I started a Tabitha King book--sorry, I forget the name. The character was out picking berries. She came upon three guy who had caught a cat in a metal trap. It was half dead anyway. One fucker splatted down on the cat's head with his boot, killing it. It shocked me..as it shocked the character, who immediately threw up. People do fucking strange things.
I read today of a six or seven year old boy, found in the mud, killed by his older brother and sister. They were, like, 10, 12, something like that. Where do these people come from? *Sigh*
Harlan... I thought of this when first I heard you mention Effinger. The thing is..these passings seem, in my recollection, to always come in threes.. or more.
Here's a view: Two guys left for the great beyond. They needed an arbitrator for the yak fests they'd finally be having--they's never met before--and called for this Effinger dude to complete the trio. Just an idea.
Regrets, in any case, in you need em, k?
Oh yeah, I bought a lottey ticket after the movie. If it wins, it goes to KICK. (I picked up this tidbit at the gas station job. Wouldn't have known otherwise. There's a 2.2 Million jackpot waiting. Stranger things have happened. (Okay, we have to deal with exchange rates and probably fucking income tax..but hey. Whaddayat gonna do?) I've never played lotteries. I find the concept weird. I save my luck for real life. But I also find footing a the bill of a large lawyer fee weird, too.
Jay, Cindy: a tiny child story. I thought it so amusing, so enLIGHTENING to see a completely different view, when a tiny child on the bus the other day, pointed to a baby and say, "John?" (or some name like that.) His mother, in a fairly serious tone, said, "No, that's not John." And the little kid, as serious as day, said, "Why not?"
Rick: Glad to hear you found a job. I'm sure your dog is highly relieved. *grin*
Thanks, Lynn! How could I forget FOUNDATION? And Eddings' books? Sheesh. Will pass on those recommendations.
And to read a first novel (and perhaps learn from someone else's mistakes) Terry Cook's WIZARD'S FIRST RULE.
L.
Well, how about Asimov's FOUNDATION? McCaffrey's PERN? One of my personal favorites, Susan R. Matthews EXCHANGE OF HOSTAGES and PRISONER OF CONSCIENCE, though not for the faint of heart. There's always Zelazny's AMBER, Eddings' BELGARIAD & MALLOREAN, Simmons' HYPERION, or Barker's IMAJICA.
Just to name a few,
L.
Yup, got that same email letter today. I seem to get it, or one like it, about once a month now. I really hope that NO ONE *EVER* falls for something so obvious. Not to mention ridiculous.
But, to a question: I've got a friend who is about to embark on a new novel--SF--that's rather expansive in scope. I suggested that in preparation he might read other "epic" novels, especially epic SF/Fantasy/Speculative novels. First ones that came to mind were Lord of the Rings, Dune, The Stand...but after that I was stumped.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
Lorin
Chuck~ Saw Caesar sippin' a piña colada last night at Trader Vic's, did you? Was his hair p e r f e c t?
L.
E-mail fraud:
I got one weeks ago from a supposed family member of Mobutu Sese Soko. His widow. I think I got that one at work. Damn, the recession must be hitting hard. I keep getting more spam than an army field kitchen.
Rick,
Glad to hear (read) about your new job. Best of luck to someone who demonstrates that the web does not have to be full of aimless crap.
Alex Jay,
(But I've always had a story in mind about it--Caesar had seizures ["Moses supposes"?], you see, and if I can ever do some in-depth research on pre-Christian Rome, I'll write about the plot to rid the Empire of its lycanthropic rulers ...)
Ah, yes. I do remember the case. Caesar had siezures by the sea shore. As I recall, he was the only bald wolfman in Rome. Everybody knew who had mutilated that little old lady last night, despite Caesar's denials.
"Oh, great! There goes Caesar, carrying off another sheep. That's eight head so far! Just wait'll Brutus hears about this!"
Chuck
Shane, I recieved the same e-mail today. I have had a few different versions of this fraud sent to me.
Cheers,
Kerry
I've seen this dealt with in a clever manner. What the bank and FBI do when they receive a tip like this is offer a "dummy number" that the FBI forwards to these schmoes. Then they watch for transactions on that account, track to the source and freeze the account making the withdrawl.
I understand that the con is often pulled off six months later, after recieving the account number and after they forward a "Thank you, but we've resolved the issue" email which either disappoints the potential lottery winner or tries to convince the Feds they got cold feet. Then, after the memory fades, they wait until payday and WHOOOSH, transfer the lot offshore, or - more commonly - they suck off the account like a parasite, assuming they are too dumb to watch their account closely.
Sadly, most really are offshore, so it's hard to prosecute or recover money lost to them.
Well, it has now been attempted on me: fraud. Today I received an e-mail from a "Mrs. Catherine K. Saro Wiwa Ogoni Tribe Nigeria" offering to share 10 percent of her dead husbands $45,000,000.00 dollars in oil holdings if I would allow her to use my bank account to transfer the money out of Nigeria. Can you believe that people fall for this crap? Of course, I immediately filed a complaint with the F.B.I.
Thanks for all the information, folks. I realize the information I provided was a bit sketchy so I thought I'd fill out the rest.
My son had bad ear infections when he was very young which caused some hearing problems for several months. After getting the infections cleared up and his hearing tested again we began speech therapy. While in the speech therapy class his therapist noticed that he did not seem to engage in "imaginative play" which is one of the hallmarks of Asperger's syndrome. We will be having a developmental asessment done in a few months to confirm/disprove this diagnosis.
The reason for waiting so long for the diagnosis is because my son will be having surgery to fuse some vertebrae in his back that did not form properly when he was born. He'll be in a cast from shoulders to pelvis for six months afterwards.
Please don't read the above as a "oh woe is me" plea for sympathy. My son is a happy soon-to-be three year old who is currently fascinated by banging on piano keys and being read to by his mother and father.
Wow. I think that's the most I've told anyone about my family... well, ever. What can I say? You're all such a friendly and helpful bunch I just wanted to fill you in on the details.
Thanks,
Dennis
Washu,
"Ever seen the trailer for PSYCHO, or THE BIRDS for that matter?"
Those were REALLY funny; esp. the 'Psycho' trailer which took me off guard considering the tragedy that befalls the characters in the film.
**You are way off fella. The camera movements are meant to convey a sense of cat and mouse subversion. It added to the suspense. **
Since there was exactly zero suspense in the movie, would that mean there was negative suspense without the use of the endlessly roving camera?
That's a pretty impressive achievement!
Bermanator: I know. I still think Fred tipped you off, though.
Bill
Thanks for confirming that "different from" is correct and "different than" indicates not only a tin ear, but grammatical ignorance. I heard Terry Gross say it today on NPR.
Bill: I'm sure your hair is *fabulous*. I honestly didn't even think of you when I used that name, as those are the two names I use in class when making up sample vocab sentences.
Bermanator
Even a movie critic has the right to have guilty pleasures. Ebert is usually pretty open minded--which is the reason he is one of the better critics--and doesn't look down on movies that merely, "entertain".
The reason I probobly like him so much is because he loves Indiana Jones And The Temple Of Doom. Sorry, Lynn, had to say it.
-----------------
Chris L, saw Panic Room for a second time: You are way off fella. The camera movements are meant to convey a sense of cat and mouse subversion. It added to the suspense.
Bermanator: Leave my hair out of this! Damn Fred straight to aych-ee-double-hockey-sticks!!
Bill
BERMANATOR: A cursory look at the usual suspects (Strunk and White, O'Connor, Follett) confirms it: "Different from" is correct, "different than" is not.
DAVID LOFTUS: Geez, you aren't even going to put up the TEENSIEST fight over the correct use of "none"? You're showing your age, Loftus...
Funny thing about Hitchcock. He seemed to be one of the few directors who were true showmen in every sense of the word. Ever seen the trailer for PSYCHO, or THE BIRDS for that matter? That man had style.
Of course "different than" sounds wrong just like that. The confusion tends to come in when the two words get separated by a bunch of others, e.g., "Larry had a different way of doing it than John." I hear and read this kind of rendering all the time.
I don't know the rules, and I tend not to remember them, according to the parts of speech, etc. I just try to look at what's reasonable. "Than" typically applies when direct comparisons are made: larger than, faster than, dumber than, earlier than. "Different" doesn't offer any direct comparison; all it says is that a distinction exists or may be argued.
Bottom line: I try to avoid sentence constructions that encourage or allow the use of "different than."
Re: Grammar. Different from=correct, different than=incorrect.
I just recently had a writer of some prominence (not HE) make that very correction on a story of mine. It seems the "my mother is an English teacher" excuse only covers used commas and infinitive joinery.
L.
P.A.B.: As I understand it, "different from" is the correct form, though "different than" MAY be used when it comes before a clause.
So, for example, you couldn't say, "The cat who ran up the stairs is different THAN the other cat" because the part after "different THAN" is not a clause (no verb).
But you CAN say, "The cat who ran up the stairs is different than the cat who ran downstairs (because you've got a subject and verb at the end there)". Of course, it still sounds lousy to my ear, too, and since either is acceptable in that case, I'd probably just stick with "different from."
Two cents, for what they're worth!
-- Lorin O.
CLARIFYING THE GRAMMAR QUESTION:
Example: Fred's hairstyle is *different from* Bill's because he has a blonde streak.
OR
Fred's hairstyle is *different than* Bill's because he has a blonde streak.
Or are both correct?
Bermanator
GRAMMAR QUESTION FOR ALL YOU NITPICKERS:
Which is more acceptable, "different from" or "different than"? I have to admit, "different than" just sounds wrong to me, and I want to know if it is in fact a correct formulation.
Rich: That Ninja Website was sweet, or should I say, awesome? I read the intro of it to my study hall and showed them the picture "Mark is almost all the way through puberty, which is bragable." We collectively laughed our asses off. Is that site for real?
Bermanator
Rob: That's fair. I can see how a quote like Kael's "Hitchcock (the master of a piddling domain, a 'petit maitre' if ever there was one)"* affects your reading of Kael.
Cheers, Jon
* "Three." Pauline Kael. _Reeling._ Toronto: Little, Brown, 1976. 175-182. 179.
Alex,
Perhaps your efforts were not in vain. The Chicago Tribune carried a nice approximately 8-paragraph obituary from the AP for Mr. Effinger.
Regards,
Joseph
Jon,
Just for final clarity on the "Hitchcock collaboration" thread: I'm not taking away credit for those writers' abilities (particularly Stefano, whose own personality came through in the dialogue). The point is Hitch worked the strings to keep his themes in place; those writers whose approach weren't to his liking went out the door (he didn't like Chandler's dialogue for 'Strangers on a Train', for instance). By writing framework material and sketching (he'd had an art background; also in engineering...the reason sprinkled references to math come up in his films often...and the reason he was very good working the floor plan for camera tricks, sfx and technical problems) he had a fixed method in the process of assembling and constructing the material that went back to his beginnings in the silents. There were CERTAINLY writers like Lehman and Stefano who understood better than others what he was after in the structuring; unlike Hunter who'd literalized many elements in the original script for 'The Birds' which Hitchcock removed in preference to metaphor and ambiguity (frankly, to my liking). And LEHMAN, who'd been a hot success with 'North By Northwest' also did 'Family Plot', a relative failure. It's simply inaccurate to infer the film's success depended on who he teamed up with: the films that failed did so because of HIM; those that succeeded did so because of HIM. It was the same situation for Kubrick and Wilder.
Hey, listen: film is a collaborative medium no matter WHO you are. It's just the depth of influence directors have on the themes, style and voice of those movies that varies. Without Hitch's personal eccentricities flooding out of his films the way they do - even in the tv episodes he directed - his collaborators WOULD probably be more important to discuss. He is among the few directors ever who personify their movies.
Lorin: Yup, sorry, I'll be in Italy and Ireland during the next academic year, so I'm out. Good luck though!
J
Group W - I admit I've got NO idea who y'are! But Betty's Pies sounds like a superb trip. My parents are coming up for graduation, so maybe we'll take the trip there. My father has mentioned the Twin Cities book store several times, and so it's a definite destination during my next trip there. Thanks for the suggestsions!
--Dottingly
--Zoë Rose
Grumble, grumble, grumble, kvetch.
Yesterday, I notified the Associated Press in New Orleans about George Alec Effinger's death. They were receptive--at least partially because my long-time associate Janet McConnaughey is part of the New Orleans AP bureau. She knew and liked Effinger. She arranged for me to send info on GAE, including awards info, and Harlan's number (with Harlan and Susan's permission), in case they wanted a quote.
The Plain Dealer, Cleveland's only major newspaper, was an entirely different adventure. First, they'd never heard of him. Good enough, I sent the information (minus Harlan's number). They called again. Did George have family in the Cleveland area? I didn't know. Could they wait for the AP obit? Sure. And now today they called again, same questions, looking for other notices, etc. I suggested contacting a publisher and Barbara Hambly. The earnest young woman doing the obits means well, I'm sure. But I'm beginning to despair of GAE getting a proper obit in his hometown paper.
Faz baz. Just needed to blow off steam. I don't know if a prophet is without honor only in his own country, but it seems that a writer surely is.
--Alex
Zoe dot dot, you must not leave Duluth until you have been to Betty's Pies.
It's a requirement of spending time on the north shore. Well worth a 30 minute
drive. http://www.bettyspies.com/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Betty%27s+Pies&spell=1 (google search)
I always take an extra cooler for a 5 layer chocolate pie when heading up to
Temperance River or Cascade River state park.
If you or Lorin O end up in the twin cities, be sure to stop by Uncle Hugo's.
http://www.visi.com/~sfreader/unclehugo.html Open since 1974, I'm told it's
the longest surviving bookstore of it's genre(SF/fantasy), as well as one of the
largest in the states.
Several on this page may have met the late Scott Imes, a long time employee there.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/895052.html
Gunther:
--it's that videogames and movies are blamed for violence in society--
One politician fueling his campaign with a current tragedy is not a social mandate.
--there're several studies showing the opposite--
What, that videogames and movies make one peaceful and loving?
--any normal human being can distinguish reality from fiction, especially when they're 19 and thus have at least 11 years of education behind them--
A large assumption. Depends on the education, of course, as well as a host of other things (that I suppose "normal" people have); quality family life, balanced mental health, etc.
Yet ANOTHER piece on MULHOLLAND DRIVE: http://www.locusmag.com/2001/Reviews/Lalumiere11_MDrive.html. Though it subscribes to the standard "2/3 dream, 1/3 reality" theory, it raises a few points I hadn't seen before, especially about the true identities of the elderly couple and the "Silencio" woman. Maybe I WASN'T so off the mark with my "God and the Devil" crack, after all.
(I bought the DVD over the weekend, and I'm going frame-by-frame through the lesbian sex scenes--purely to discern any satirical intent on Lynch's part, of course.)
Lurk:
It doesn't matter if he had, it's that videogames and movies are blamed for violence in society when a) there're several studies showing the opposite and b) any normal human being can distinguish reality from fiction, especially when they're 19 and thus have at least 11 years of education behind them.
It's too easy to be obit guy of late. Joining George "Piglet" Effinger among the missing this weekend is John "Richard Cowper" Murry, another excellent writer. His novels were probably not the place to start, but the shorter fiction was often extremely impressive.
Oops redux: PETER - drop me a line, re: the seminars, too.
Cindy (and anyone else for that matter),
Please please please check out this site: http://www.realultimatepower.net
I don't know if it's for real or not, but it is (as the Sports Guy would say) FEEEEEEE-nomonal. Check out the PUMPUP and PUMPUP2 links (no nononono no, it's not porno). The comments at the end are priceless; specifically, The Kings Gold/Babes.
Jay's AQ = 13, baby... what do I win? K Mart Underwear?
RICH/CHRIS
Filmmaking as a Democracy. I don't think so.
Re: "I wrote the thing and I would pick the title whether anyone else liked it or not." <--- Channeling Ellison there, eh? Since you were Director AND Producer, you're pretty much THE MAN on that shoot. "You wanna take this to the UNION?" I've heard said. Apparently it shuts people up. Of course, if the instructor is nurturing a collaborative effort, then all bets are off and you'll end up with another mixed-up piece of filth.
I love college productions. Everyone's a fucking Coppola or Kevin Smith or Tarantino.
When my buddies and I shot "Ringo" it was pretty clear that since I was the guy footing the $$$, I ruled the universe. Of course, this works both ways. None of that $$$ was lining THEIR pockets so they could easily spend the day doing something that didn't involve sitting in the woods in mid-summer or creating zombie make-up.
When you need advice, they're there to give you their best and it's often best to allow them to give their advice. At least in school/amateur productions, you can't push too hard or your "talent" takes a hike. On a crappy shoot like "Ringo" we needed all the help we could get.
I miss those days. :)
Jay
Oops, BILL - I see your address! I'll write you!
-- Lorin
PETER: Nothing personal, I promise! :-) Just something so symmetrical about the Zoe/Justin pairing.
BILL, JUSTIN, ZOE, and any other writers in Minneapolis, Boston, Atlanta, Phoenix, and probably Orange County area of CA: drop me a line at lorin@free-expressions.com, and I'll give you the skinny on the writing seminars. (Also, check out www.free-expressions.com for info. on the seminars! Might help to know what you're getting into.)
Basically, I'm looking for folks who are willing to do some venue scouting (helping select hotels) and local promotions in exchange for a free seminar and probably a little cash. Also, probably, some help at the seminar itself.
Ideally, the writer in question would live in/be QUITE familiar with the city in question. I don't have any objection to someone schlepping an hour or two to get there (and that may be great for someone who is ONLY helping out at the seminar), but it might end up being a lot of time and effort for the reward.
I SHOULD have mentioned that this is for end of '02/most of '03, so I don't know if that puts you out of the running, Justin (will you still be in Italy?). If not, let's chat.
BILL - if you send me a note (or just your email address), I'll drop a line w/ some details.
And the same for everyone.
Re: the AQ score - I think it really just measured levels of extroversion and introversion. Apparently, I'm the social butterfly of the south! Who knew?
Best to all -
Lorin
RICH!
HAHAHAHAHA!
The pee pee comment was priceless!
I thought your response was PERFECT. You held your ground like a forty year old man! Careful, sticking up for yourself can be habit forming.
Cindy
rich,
I think you have the right idea. My own experience working on short films at film school showed that any collaborations were disastrous. Of course, almost all student films are disastrous.
At the end of the first year, we shot a five minute film in groups of four students. We had to decide for ourselves how to divvy up the responsibility. Being such nice guys, we decided that we would have two co-directors (I was one of them) and we'd pick different scenes to direct.
The film was an embarassing, non-sensical mish-mash with only one strength, good cinematography (on the student film scale of things.) Of course, there was only one cinematographer on the shoot.
Well, my amazing flame car is now fixed. Sort of a shame, really, as its gas line leak and fused fuel flow chip made it ideal for destroying any Doomsday Machines in this area.
Rob: So we disagree -- I really like your non-budgingness re: Hitchcock, as it reminds me of my own rants about Jack Kirby in other venues. I'd just like to point out one logical bit of three-card monte you pulled. Joseph Stefano may be a 'nobody' compared to Steinbeck and Faulkner, but that doesn't reflect on his ability to write. And Steinbeck and Faulkner had sometimes spotty records in Hollywood, apart from their great achievements as novelists. Beyond that, I think it's a shame that Hitchcock never won an Oscar (or five or six), and of course Hitchcock's films bear the imprint of his interests. They certainly do, and I'd count *Psycho*, *Shadow of a Doubt*, *The 39 Steps* and probably half-a-dozen others on any list I'd compile of '100 Best.' Timon of Athens is a dud, and Hamlet's dramatic structure is a nightmare -- neither of those change my assessment of Shakespeare as pretty much 'it'. Hitchcock's grand successes far outnumber his failures, and even the failures are interesting in a way that I think points to Hitchcock as being a great artist -- because they *are* interesting at points.
Cheers,
Jon
For those that have the Independent Film Channel, tonight's show of "Dinner for Five" will include the following guests: "...Jon Favreau as host to special guests Ron Livingston (of Swingers and Office Space fame), Sarah Silverman (of SNL and MR. Show fame), Kevin Pollack (of The Usual Suspects) and Rod Steiger (if you don't know... ::sigh:: On the Waterfront, Dr. Zhivago, Mars Attacks, etc). They're eating at Saddle Peak (Los Angeles)."
The above quote was taken from Ain't It Cool News.
I am a fan of Rod Steiger and don't know how you go from "On the Waterfront" and "Dr. Zhivago" to "Mars Attacks". I don't know how one leaves out "The Pawnbroker" or maybe even "In the Heat of the Night" or any other countless GOOD movies Steiger was in and put in "Mars Attacks". But, that's just me.
Also, just some thoughts on collaborations and whatnot. I am taking a film class and we just shot my script over the weekend. Nothing great and the only reason my script was chosen was because mine was the only one submitted in a reasonable amount of time. Given that it was my script, the instructor said I was producer and probably should direct. (Hitchcock's got nothing to worry about, but I think I'm a cut above Ed Wood.)
I've got a working title and kicked around a couple of things and mentioned it to the class. After getting blank stares and perplexed looks at the title I suggested, someone in the class said, "Since this is a collaborative effot, we should all decide on the title."
I immediately said no. After the uproar died down I explained that I wrote the thing and I would pick the title whether anyone else liked it or not. Also, since I was "producing and directing", I wouldn't mind input but the final say was mine.
You'da thought I yanked out my pee-pee and waved it all over the place based on the reaction I received.
Based on this experience, I think I'll be doing my own stuff with folks who don't feel a need to impart their "creativity" on something that's already been created.
Oops. That should've read:
"Please, contact me about the Boston seminar."
BG
Lorin: Contact me with some info on the Boston seminar.
Rick: Congrats!
Bill
Gunther, if he had a stack of bibles in his room and his walls were plastered with posters of Jesus Christ, they would have reported that too.
Political candidates are weather vanes....they have no opinions, they just follow the wind.
I wouldn't worry about it.
These killings in Germany piss me off no end.
Not just because the killer was a complete nutcase (apparently it turned out that he'd planned the shooting for quite a while and even called friends warning them not to go to school that day).
No, the media reports bug the hell out of me. What was the FIRST REMARKABLE THING they reported about the killing?
That he had violent movies and computer games in his room.
Oh noooo, it didn't matter that he had a fucking ARSENAL of weapons and belonged to a sport shooter's club and trained like a madman -- IT WAS THE MOVIES AND THE GAMES!!! AS ALWAYS!!!
Next they'll find a Marilyn Manson CD behind his bed, and then we'll know who's REALLY responsible!
Now the chancellor candidate is calling for a law to ban violent games and movies (aside the fact that every single game involving the killing of humans gets banned in Germany and isn't available to buy for people under 18, nor may it be advertised or positively reviewed once it's banned) while CNN continues to show SUICIDE BOMBER LIVE WITH DETACHING HEAD ACTION.
I hate this fucking hypocrisy.
Good morning, all-
The countdown is really going now - only officially 19 days until I graduate/get commissioned...
Re: AQ test - I got a 12, so does that mean there's very little chance I'm any form of autistic? Also, Dennis- try to make sure everything about your child gets looked at. I'm no expert (or parent, even) but I do know that I was being considered for LD (learning disabled) classes as a child until it was discovered I couldn't hear anything. Got tubes in the ears and *wham!*, I was suddenly the smart kid in class.
Re: Me and match-ups here. Goodness. Is it sad that I have more potential hookups here than in real life? *laughs* Even completely fabricated cyberspace ones? Aah, well... (and yes, I'm just kidding. Kinda.)
R: Whose Line... a show I thoroughly enjoy, though I don't know much about the individual people. I'd have to say Colin's my favorite, though. He's always the one to make me snort whatever liquid it is I'm drinking through my nose.
Loren O. - I'm in Duluth, a mere 2 hours from Minneapolis. If you come here, do let me know and I'll try to help out in whatever way I can!
Dangit. My "time to go" buzzer just went off.
Off to school, off to school.
Dotty
Zoë Rose
Lorin, I don't know whether to be relieved or insulted...
I'll be neither. Heh!
I'm in No. Cal, about seven hours North of L.A. If I could find a cheap place to crash I could easily drive down and help out. (I become unemployed in a couple weeks anyway.)
---Peter
Ok, so wondering what this AQ test was about, I found and took it.
My AQ is 21.
I'm very sceptical about these type of tests, because you know what there testing for, and that may influence your answers.
Cheers,
Kerry
Lorin: Thanks for helping to clear that up. I'm about 80 minutes south of Phoenix, although the way I drive tends to cut that figure in half. I could probably give you a hand, depending on what exactly you need. Also, it depends on when. As of right now I'm pretty free from late May until I leave for Italy around the 13th of August. Most of May is busy with finals, a sea kayaking trip to North Carolina, and a trip to Vegas with my pops, but I'll have SOME free time in mid-May. Let me know, I'd love to help in any way I can.
J
Dunno, Lorin; mine was a 32.
Should I be worried?
ONE LAST THING: What does it mean that my AQ score is a *9*?
1. Please, not Zoe dot-dot and Peter! I'm still hoping for the Zoe/Justin match-up. (As a thirty-six year old who has now been with the same person for exactly HALF of her life, I must live vicariously through other people's romances. Even completely fabricated cyber-romances. I'm not picky.)
2. Gerbils named "Sex" and "Violence"? I can live with that.
3. Rick, CONGRATULATIONS on your new job! And, though it's been said many times in the last couple of days (I was AFK from Friday on...), I greatly appreciate the work you do here. I've put together a couple of websites myself--nothing as expansive as this one--and I know it's a ton of work. I also do enough interacting with the public (mostly writers, which can be a pretty high-maintenance group) to have had my share of run-ins like the one you related (I'm so glad the guy apologized, though it'd have been better if he could have exercised a little impulse-control in the first place)). It can be quite a buzzkill. It's like handing someone a lavish twelve-course meal and having him bitch because his napkin is wrinkled (not even, I suppose, since the whole thing was his oversight in the first place).
ANYWAY, again, just know your efforts here mean a lot to me, and I'm only a semi-regular (at best).
4. Justin, re: show/don't tell. This has probably been covered already (have only scrolled back about 100 posts, and you guys had a BUSY weekend). This will be covered ad nauseum for the rest of your writing life (believe me). Basically, the difference between showing and telling is the difference between saying, "He was angry" and saying, "He barged into the room, picked up a chair, and hurled it at the window." One is simply information you're feeding the reader (telling). The other is a demonstration, in OBSERVABLE terms (imagery) of the emotion you're trying to express. The more you can put into concrete, sensory language, the more you create a SPACE for your reader to enter. The more you do that, the more involved they become in your story.
Hope that helps.
5. Any writers in Boston, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Phoenix, or Orange County area of CA (haven't settled on a location) who'd be interested in helping out with a series of writing seminars (in exchange for a free seminar and possibly a *little* cash)? I've got Lynn pegged for CA, but could probably use another hand there. Could use a COUPLE of hands in all locales, I'm sure.
6. Sorry if this is cryptic. The first of my seminars was this weekend, and I think I burned out my verbal skills chatting for about sixty hours straight (man, we writers are a VERBOSE bunch!). It was, however, PHENOMENAL, one of those occasions that unfolds even more smoothly than your fondest imaginings. Won't bore everyone w/ details. I'll just say that apart from the fact that my instructors did an excellent job (as expected), it was the HOTEL that actually blew me away with how smartly they handled things and how solicitous they were. So, miracles do happen!
Thanks for reading! Blabbingly yours,
Lorin O.
CHUCK: Well, I'm epileptic, my eyebrows grow together, and when I was a child I growled at people when I was angry.
Wasn't hard to link stuff up, really.
(But I've always had a story in mind about it--Caesar had seizures ["Moses supposes"?], you see, and if I can ever do some in-depth research on pre-Christian Rome, I'll write about the plot to rid the Empire of its lycanthropic rulers ...)
Alex Jay,
Interesting idea linking grand mal siezures and legends of lycanthropy. What brought you to link the two together? Just curious, as I'm always interested in the origins of legends and icons.
Cindy,
Say, why don't you shoot me a copy of your screenplay while you're at it? As soon as your e-mail settles down. See address above.
Chuck
By the way, since we're discussing "Ginger Snaps," I was pleased to note that it won an International Horror Guild award for Best Film this month. Cool.
Regards,
Joseph
Incidentally, Cindy...
You probably understood this but you were never part of the target in my shit-slinging Hitchcock rail; just wanted to state that point because my posting kind of put you in the line of fire. It may not have been clear when you first read it.
...those guys kin really piss ya off sometimes...lemme tell ya all about it over a drink here...
My AQ Score: 26
It would explain a lot. Both my parents graduated from Rice.
L.
DAVID LOFTUS: Actually, Rob's plural use of "none" was correct. ("None of them are empty.") Many people have been mistakenly taught that none always means "not one." But it's now generally agreed that none is closer in meaning to "not any (of them)", so use of a plural verb is perfectly acceptable in most cases. The singular use of none applies only when it means "none of it," or "no amount." (See works on grammar and usage by Wilson Follett, Bryan A. Garner, and Patricia T. O'Conner--they all agree that none is mostly plural in nature.)
Some examples: None of the chickens are hatched. None of the conversation is worth repeating.
Yes, I'm a pain in the ass.
Personally, I think of the American version of "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" as superior in one respect: the dynamic between the regulars is a bit more developed and adds to the whole character of the show.
Oh, and there's nothing funnier than the sketch that involves Colin in front of a green screen while Ryan and whoever act as studio guys and Colin has to try and guess what's being projected in back of him. Especially good when the projection was Colin's greatest moments.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. I'm sleeping with the lights on. Even a TV version of "Sixth Sense" creeps me out more than almost any movie.
Some brief responses to the passing flotsam....
Melissa -- Please let us know your reaction to "Seven Samurai," truly one of the utterly awesome works of film. And I hope you got the full 201-minute version, not one of half a dozen hacked-up jobs Americans had to settle for during most of three decades after its original release.
So Chris Long is a Haverford grad? I almost went there: They accepted me early, really seemed to want me, and it looked like a great place ... but I sorta got waylaid.
I must have read Kael's review of "2001" somewhere along the way, but I don't remember it. I'll venture a wild guess that she referred to the film as "unimaginative" in its human character aspect. The vast majority of homo saps in the movie were nearly colorless blanks. Yes, I know that was probably part of Kubrick's point, but it don't make for a warm fuzzy moviegoing experience. "2001" is a cerebral, even visual, marvel but it's kinda cold. In fact, I remain unconvinced that Kubrick had any particular skill at directing actors. He put music and light and sets and all other sorts of technical stuff together into an amazing whole, but I get the impression the actors kind of sank or swam on their own. If he cast sharp, inventive, or even just charismatic actors (George C. Scott, Kirk Douglas, Malcolm MacDowell) then they added to the whole, but if they didn't have the chops (Ryan O'Neal, Matthew Modine), then they got smothered in the mix.
(Speaking of chops, is anybody else joyful to see Vincent D'Onofrio getting regular work these days? The 2-hour season finale of "Law and Order: Criminal Intent" is on in 15 minutes and I'll have to log off. I think he's doing a kind of Fox Mulder thang on that show -- intuitive, magpie mind -- but it works anyway.)
Rob -- You were right the first time; "none is" is the proper construction, as in "not one is" or "no one is." Folks tend to get confused about this one because a plural noun or plural-sounding noun often shows up closer to the verb (e.g., "none of the turtles was able to make it to the water" or "none of the people in my group is going to the meeting" -- ""were" and are" sound so much more appropriate next to "turtles" and "people" ... but they're wrong). Best solution: Come up with a different way to say it. Your original phrasing was pretty ungainly, anyway.
I just saw the Pearce "Time Machine" cheap this evening. It wasn't that bad, but it wasn't terribly good. Some nice, understated visuals, so-so set design. Pearce was merely okay -- odd career choice for him, and the team let him down. What was the SECOND name mentioned in the museum, after Asimov and before Ellison?
I was much happier after coming out of an early matinee of the reissued "The Last Waltz." It struck me that Rick Danko had something of the same eyes/facial structure as Richard Gere, oddly enough. Joni Mitchell and Emmylou Harris, zowie...!)
RE THE WIRED AQ TEST:
Ha! I beat you! I got a 27!
("I take pride in besting people in meaningless little quizzes:
Definitely agree, Slightly agree, Slightly disagree, Definitely disagree...")
I'm still kind of cold on a period-authentic version of _The War of the Worlds_. Yes, I know, it'd be a really _right_ version of Wells's work, and it's be cool to see all that Victorian foofaraw get blasted to flinders.
But really, does it _need_ to be done? Why does a great book _have_ to be adapted into a movie? Is there a way of doing the _ending_ in some new and surprising way? I imagine a fiasco similar to that of the _Planet of the Apes_ remake.
Also, I'm thinking of a wonderful bit from _Invader Zim_ that parodied the ending. Zim and Gir are watching a movie on TV where the aliens-- a nice cross between Pal's and _Starship Troopers_-- are taking over. Scientists are panicking. One of them demonstrates, by snorting pepper, that the Aliens Are Allergic to Germs. We next see soldiers marching into battle and blasting huge wads of phlegm onto the aliens, which explode obligingly. Last title card reads "Hooray for Earth."
Re Asperger's. _Wired_ had a nifty article about the mini-epidemic of autism and Asperger's that's hitting Silocn Valley. The culture there selects for traits which are related to such syndromes, which means that people with predispositions towards it are both meeting women with similar tendencies, and having kids more frequently than they would have otherwise. The article's available at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=
I ought to mention something. My childhood wasn't terribly great, but there was a _lot_ about the way I dealt with things that made me wonder if I suffered from a form of autism or Asperger's. But there were a lot of areas where I didn't fit the diagnosis, so I chalk my earlier difficulties to my environment. (Still, I took the little test _Wired_ made available. Average score is 16, a score of 32 or higher may indicate something. I got 25.)
An odd resonance with George Alec Effinger's passing--Ruth Handler, creator of the Barbie Doll, just died Saturday.
Cindy~ You should differentiate between a Gulf Coast accent (a softer drawl), a West Texas accent (the more nasal one you reference), a Pan Handle accent (more like Oklahoma), an East Texas Accent (a hint of Cajun), and then a Dallas-Ft. Worth citified accent (what Yankees think Texans should sound like). I'm sure I've missed some, not having lived in Texas for almost twenty years, but I have friends, and I'm one of those "detail oriented" folks who pay attention to how people speak.
I'm half way through your script and liking it so far. How do you want notes? I almost wish you had acts & scenes so I could be specific.
L.
XANADU!
I love you!
Thank you for doing TWO reads of my script that was ABOVE AND BEYOND! The notes that you included were excellent. It's amazing how blind one can become after working on the same thing for a couple of years. I'd guess this is around rewrite 7 and you pointed out some important things that I have probably looked at fifty times and never identified.
I'm going to read y'all's script next.
Oh and the thing about Texas Accents is that they differ and vary greatly. We've discussed it on the board here before. A thick Nasal Texas Accent is different than a regular drawl... believe me.. it's profoundly different.
Thank you so much you are a wizard and a prince,
:)
Yours in debt and gratitude,
Cindy
SHANE: Yes, Brady was on the British version. In fact, at the Comedy Central website, there's a good clip of him improvising a song to sing to an astronomy student picked out of the auddience in the style of Barry White (actually, it seems more in the style of Peabo Bryson/James Ingram/Luther Vandross, but hey; it works).
Dennis - My son was diagnosed with Apserger's Syndrome in the first grade. He is now in the fifth grade and doing all right. The biggest problem is socialization. He is incapable of reading facial expressions, mostly because he never looks at people when he talks to them. However, he has a couple of good buddies that he hangs around with. He has a tested verbal IQ of 143 and a writing IQ of 90. He has never been able to connect the word he reads to the one he is trying to write. Actually, my son didn't start reading until he was given a copy of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." In one year his reading level went from ungradeable to a sixth grade level. My advice to you is, see a good pediatric neurologist, make sure all of his teachers understand his indiosyncratic behavior,and make friends with the school nurse and the counselors. I spend a lot of time talking to all of them and it has helped my son a great deal. Good luck and feel free to email me if you need anything.
Chris
Alex,
While Colin, Ryan, Greg, and Brad have all appeared on the British original WLIIA, I don't believe I've seen Wayne Brady appear on that version. Does anyone know if I'm right or wrong?
Best,
Shane
Lynn,
No, for shorthand purposes I could have easily said, "the black guy." I labeled Colin the bald guy and Ryan the tall guy.
BTW, I made an error when I said, "He also had his own show briefly last summer and even briefer last fall." His show returned this spring, however briefly.
Best,
Shane
ROB: As I said...'too British'. The fact that these nimrods are changing the setting of a story that is QUINTESSENTIALLY BRITISH to an American location just displays how clueless they truly are. I mean, just think how hilarious (and cool) it would be for well-mannered, well-bred, up-tight Victorian ladies and gentlemen to scurry this way and that with cries of "Cor blimey!" and "Goodness gracious!" as Martian monstrosities stalk towards them.
DENNIS: Thanks for the address, and I loved the designs. LOVED them. Now, if we get the action back to England, we're ready to rock 'n' roll. If there IS to be no originality in Hollywood to come, let them please return at least to the good, sturdy, meaty classics of old.
Oh, and...'Wushu'?
re WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY: Drew and Clive rival each other in great yuks very nicely. I don't really like comparing the two; to me, it'll always be just WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY. Favourite skits: poor ol' Colin as Captain Hair. Ryan as Dr. "His Name's Garry!" Frankenstein. Wayne as Chucky, the evil doll. Heavy death metal songs called WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BRACES. And on, and on, and on...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Dennis-- Last month's issue of Harper's Magazine (May, I believe) had a very lengthy and interesting article about a man who the author believed had Asperger's called "The Boy Who Loved Trains" (something like that). It was about a man who was obsessed with mass transit.
The magazine is in my car, but if you have trouble finding the article, post and I'll look it up for you.
Bermanator
DENNIS: Asperger's is actually very common, and often so faint or controlled as not to be noticed. Of all the development disorders, it's the best one to have (not that you necessarily WANT the choice, but ...). If you hit http://www.aspergers.com you'll get a LOT of info; only in the last decade or so has the disorder gained attention, but they're really making up for lost time. One other thing you should know: Asperger's is NOT autism. It shares with autism and PDD (Pervasive Developmental Disorder) some of the isolation and fixations, but it is very different, and very much a less severe problem. If Asperger's is a firecracker or an M-80, then autism is Fat Man or Little Boy. It'll be tough and it'll be frustrating, but this can be worked around.
I should also point out that the general impression I get is that most people I know of who have it are very intelligent, and often-to-usually go on to become rigidly successful in their chosen fields. Just a little ray of hope there.
(Note: I have a friend with mild Asperger's, and a friend whose daughter has PDD: I am NOT an authority.)
JAY, CHRIS: Don't forget Matt Ruff, and Michael Swanwick, and Chip Delaney now teaching at Temple, Scithers and Schweitzer, and a lot of others--as well as the great Golden Age of SF history that Philly has.
Yo, yo, and yo. Anon. Blues.
Irony of ironies:
Wizard World finally comes to Philly, on my birthday no less.
I, of course, have to drive out to Cleveland that Friday for a pre-trial hearing and won't be able to get back in time for the convention.
Now that's just not fair.
Dennis,
I would get an opinion from a physician, preferably one who specializes in pediatric neurology. The speech therapist might be a bit out of her depth on this one.
Meantime, there is a book that came out recently, called
AUTISM and PERVASIVE DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDER. It was written by Karen Seroussi who appeared on the Today show earlier this week. She said that her son was diagnosed with profound Autism. Through her research she discovered a link between Autism and food allergies to dairy products and gluten. She said that by eliminating these things from his diet his condition was reversed and he is now normal. She said she noticed the change in a relatively short amount of time. They had photos of her son and the difference was astounding.
How old is your son? I have one who didn't speak until he was three. He went to speech therapy for three years.They tested him and he qualified for the gifted and talented program this year.. he's eight. Sometimes it's just a matter of things coming at different ages for different kids. They are all snowflakes, no two are alike.
Take your time on that screenplay- I understand about water in the basement.
:)
Cindy
To the Berman Entities -
I will endeavor to do so in the future. Sorry for the confusion.
Chris - re: Eastern PA Ellisonites.
I think this forms the core body of a group that will influence our patron author to visit the area sometime in the near future. You don't deny the SusquehannaValley/Philly connection, yo. :)
The WizardWorld convention is coming! Let us represent!
Weirded out,
Jay
Jesus Tap Dancing Christ, now we have someone posting from Bryn Mawr, PA?
What's the deal with all the Ellisonites in the area?
Piers Anthony grew up around here too - he went to school down the road from me and he says in his Bio of an Ogre that there is a "science fiction-fantasy" beltway in SE Pennsylvania - a lot of writers have come from here and presumably fans as well. But I don't recall any names he mentioned.
By the way, Bryn Mawr sux!
-Chris Long, Haverford '93
Little Wushu: Here's a web address for you: http://www.pendragonpictures.com/WOTWKEY.html
This is the latest attempt at an adaptation of War of the Worlds. Originally they were going to update it but after 9/11 decided to set it in the original 1898 time period.
Cindy: Working on reading the script now. Unforseen plumbing problems are taking center stage at the moment. (Always fun when you turn on the water in the shower and you hear a waterfall forming in your basement).
To the group at large: I'm looking for some personal experiences here. My son's speech therapist just told my wife and I that our son may have a mild form of autism. I believe that the form she mentioned was Asperger's syndrome. Anybody out there have experience working with/raising mildly autistic children? I want to know what to do if the developmental asessment comes back to confirm her diagnosis.
Thank You,
Denns
HEATHER,
I can't answer your question. I don't know why you thought I was "dumb". If you had said that you percieved me to be stupid after meeting me in person I would say you thought so because I am beautiful. Since you've never met me face to face I am at a loss!
LOL!
I don't exactly know why you found a discrepancy in my screenplay "voice" and my persona on this message board. Maybe if you could give me specific instances when I posted something dumb I could figure it out.
My best friend said it was my Christianity and anti-gun control stance that gave you the false impression that I am sub-standard intellectually. LOL! Becky's such a bitch!
I'm just happy that you were surprised and impressed that the dumb girl from Texas could write.
INGENA was originally a short story I wrote around '82.More recently, I signed up to take a screenrwiter's course through UCLA and the only class that wasn't full was a science fiction screenwriting class. So I dug up my old INGENA story. It didn't take long to wake her up. Once it started going it wrote itself. I didn't even know what nasty thing she was going to do next and some of the things made me sick.
I do broadcast news on the radio. KNEL out of Brady, Texas.
I don't work for a newspaper. It's much simpler, I don't have to worry at ALL about typos or misspelling as long I can read it I can get my job done.
In any case, I think you're a nice person and I would love to read anything you would like to send me.
I'll be glad when my email works again!
Cindy
XANADU,
I have broken every one of my nails and STILL I can't get that attachment open! I'm really frustrated and longing to read what you wrote about my INGENA script. If you have any suggestions PLEASE let me know!
lol!
Thanks again for reading it!
:)
Cindy
RE: weak writing
I never read the Moonlighter stuff; I took the word of the board that it was lame. But taking potshots at unknown or barely-published writers for their weak prose is a piker's game. There's a lot of bad writing out there, some of it from very good writers. Everyone has produced their share of clinkers; it's part of the trade.
A more illuminating (certainly more incendiary) pursuit would be to cite weak passages from the very titans oft-revered on this board (i.e. Asimov, Bradbury, King, Ellison), and wonder what went amiss therein. Granted, you'd quite possibly be gutted, but at least you're taking on prose that merits attention. Moonlighter's clearly didn't.
KL
>>I thought the film was so bad it actually showed no sign of even being made by professional film-makers. It was as if they just picked a couple guys off the street and had them make a movie. <<
The grand irony of that statement is that the director was Simon Wells, great-grandson of H.G.
One of my all-time favorite short stories is Effinger's "Naked to the Invisible Eye," about a man with telepathy who becomes a major league pitcher (i.e. telepathically telling batters "Do not swing").
He will be missed.
SORRY THAT ONE GOT AWAY FROM ME...
ROB!
I see what you are saying and I understand. It makes sense that these two powerful men, each driven by his own intensity, prior success and need to do things " his own way", would lock horns.
As for your Gone With the Wind vs. The Third Man statement, I am always astounded by the former, no matter how many times I watch it. The latter I have yearned to see for a number of years but my remote location coupled with a painfully limited selection at the local video store has postponed that pleasure.
Another giant, Orson Welles. What a crop of amazing men they had floating around Hollywood in those days. Lucky women of that era.
Cindy
Rob: I freely admit being a member of the Philistine Nation in many areas of life... and I would never argue with you about Hitchcock. I just think it's funny that you're using that word after the hullaballoo I caused when I used it way back when.
Long may your tower waver,
Bermanator
PS--Remember, Jay and everyone, the Original Berman on here is Alex, but when I see the word "Berman," I still look. Please specify WHICH Berman you're addressing, por favor.
I hate to be a whiner here, but do you guys think you could start differentiating between Bermans?
We are a diverse and fun-loving genus, comprising many species ...
. Whether you think one or a few of his films were 'execrable' is your own problem
Washu,
Actually, funny you should mention it, a Hollywood producer/director IS working on a 'War of the Worlds' remake set in the Victorian era even as we speak; they've been working on the sfx over the last year. Except I believe - like Pal's version - it is placed here in the U.S. instead of Britain (fer God knows what reason; if you're going to set it in the period, might as well leave it in the place it began).
Since we were talking about Hitchcock here's another tidbit: Hitchcock one time considered filming 'War of the Worlds' in the 30's; he was disuaded by Wells himself.
Berman,
"I love it that you can call people who disagree with you Philistine."
...it's not that they disagree with me. No, noooooooo. It's just that they are, to put it TACTFULLY, so...well, so lost in commonplace ideas and lacking in aesthetic refinement and smug in their boorish, misguided notions. When they are better illuminated about Hitchcock they will prove otherwise. It's that simple, eh?
Oh, yeah: you've had YOUR moments too. There...you just helped me add 50 feet to my already wavering tower.
Berman -
Thanks for the link!
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen looks good, though I'm concerned they keep adding extra Victorian characters. I am MORE excited about the Alan Moore follow-up.
"Whose Line Is It Anyway" - Both versions are good. The American version seems a little forced and I, too, prefer Clive Anderson. I like how they break up the cast on the British version. There were many different and funny improv artists, though there were also many mediocre ones as well.
Couple things I forgot.
RICK: Congratulations and good luck in Atlanta!
(By the way, should I mention that there's a three-point-five-megaton nuclear missile missing somewhere right off the coast of Georgia? http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0803-08.htm
http://www.tybeebomb.com/story.html
I'm awful, ain't I?)
MORE FILM CRITIC STUFF: I'm currently reading a book of essays on film called BENEATH MULLHOLLAND by David Thomson, who also wrote a great bio of Orson Welles. I'm really enjoying the book; it shows Thomson's love of film and his hatred for the system in which films are made. Thomson reminds me pleasantly of Australian film critic Robin Pen, in his blending of serious film criticism with the lyrical and the bizarre. Definitely recommended.
Actually, I'd KILL for a few good Jack Finney adaptations ...
TODD: I've only heard of Effinger's difficulties secondhand, so I will demur, and wait for someone more knowledgeable to comment on them. I will also go into my bookcases and reread the stuff of his I have.
WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY: I have to ask: Are you guys talking about the American version, or the British one? I found that while the Drew Carey version was/is fun, I just enjoy Clive Anderson as host a lot more.
There's some great outtakes at http://www2.warnerbros.com/web/whoseline/index.jsp
JAY: If you want to look up myths and legends, start at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/myth.html
It's a clearinghouse of links for that sort of thing. Granted, it'll take you a little searching, as it's organized by regions and cultures, but I think you'll be okay finding what you need.
Me, I've always been of the opinion that the legends of lycanthropy stem from observations of grand mal epilepsy, but that may just be a bit of self-bias.
ON PAULINE KAEL, AND OTHER CRITICS: I agreed with her opinions on some things, disagreed with her on some things, but you can't deny that she was an excellent writer with a deep and abiding love for film--as well as a deep disappointment in what the film industry has put out these last few decades.
As for Ebert, et alia--I never liked SNEAK PREVIEWS, or SISKEL AND EBERT, or whatever the show metamorphized into. Not because the two were in any way bad critics--and about their successors, the less said, the better--but because the two, good writers on film, were set into a pattern, a paradigm, which allowed for only the briefest explanation of why they liked or disliked a film. And this pattern caused them to cut into even that short time, as they argued with each other over this or that point. Good writers, good chemistry; I just didn't care for the soundbiting nature of the show.
Also, I can't help but think that their visibility paved the way for other critics to also become visible, which led in my estimation to the rise of "quote whores"; critics whose sole purpose is to get their names on movie posters, who enjoy the benefits of "liking" bad films for pay.
H.G. WELLS: I think that the best hope we have for a good Wells adaptation isn't a Wells adaptation at all: I have high hopes for the movie based on Alan Moore's LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN. The Invisible Man is a player in this (although I've no doubt that Hollywood will demand his antics be toned down; he's a bit of a degenerate in the comic book), and the feel is very Wellsian/Holmesian. I believe James Robinson has written a screenplay faithful to Moore's vision--and if they screw it up, well, there's always the second LoEG miniseries, coming out in a few months ...
I wouldn't mind an H.G. Wells biopic, either ...
Re Wells adaptations. It's not an easy thing to do, considering that his stories are so well known, that they've set the mold for a lot of SF, and that most of them are suffused with the ideas of the late 19th century. I'm afraid that those who dramatize Wells are bound to update his works in some way.
Sure, a lot of it will be silly. Anyone remember the 1970's remake of _The Island of Dr. Moreau_? I could never understand how the "House of Pain" could be applied when Moreau's method was genetic manipulation rather than vivisection. (I did enjoy the Brando version, if only to watch Brando give another bizarre performance, and watch Fairuza Balk draw breath.)
But let's remember the really _good_ adaptations: namely, the updates of _The War of the Worlds_ created by Orson Welles and George Pal, and Pal's version of _The Time Machine_. And I'll even consider a film that _uses_ Wells, namely, _Time After Time_.
You are all so chatty, man, I have to wrap all my replies into one omnibus post.
Mr. Ellison, et al: This week I am having my seniors read "Ahbhu." I am pretty excited to hear what they think of it. Are there any questions you'd like me to ask them about it? Any subtle points I should highlight? I am teaching it in the context of an article about anthropomorphism and animal intelligence from DEFENDERS magazine.
Re: Werewolves-- Hey, I've always been fascinated by werewolves myself. Last year I finished a story called "The Lycanthrope" that combines elements inspired by "Ahbhu," the idea of a female werewolf, and a personal experience after losing a nonhuman friend of mine. If anyone wants to read it, just ask.
Re: kids today-- Of course kids are kids. I don't think kids have changed. I do think the world is different, though, even from when I grew up. These school shootings are a symptom of *something*, some negative, horrible change in the world. I wish I could offer some brilliant theory as to what exactly is wrong, but I can't. Overpopulation? Single parent families? Too much TV? Mind control rays from outer space? I don't know.
Rob: I love it that I've got you calling people who disagree with you Philistines.
Scott: Gerbils are not poop machines. Mice definitely are, but gerbils are desert animals (no, not dessert animals, no matter what the cats think). They rarely go to the bathroom.
re: names--I'm going with Cookie's suggestion of Thelma and Louise, after all. Thanks for all your suggestions. They made me laugh in a rather unfunny world these days.
Bermanator
LYNN: I watch WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY? at every given oppurtunity. Funniest show on the face of the planet. The fact that Wayne Brady's talents have been ignored for so long is criminal, and Ryan and Colin are the most dynamic comic duo since Abbot & Costello. I sincerely mean that.
ROB: Oh yeah, baby. I would kill for a new kick-ass WAR OF THE WORLDS movie, set in Victorian London but with all the genuinely awesome special effects they can whip up nowadays. Except it's not gonna happen, at least not in Hollywood. Why?
'Too British.'
JIM: Actually, Guillermo Del Toro said that THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE was such a deep, personal experience for him, he wanted to have just plain simple fun again. BLADE II gave him that oppurtunity. Hopefully, with HELLBOY coming soon, we'll see Del Toro show his REAL colours.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Cindy,
As I have too little time to argue with the Hitchcock philistines here (just follow along the dotted line of my data, guys; I know more about it than you do. Hitchcock didn't direct 'adaptations'; they all worked closely with him from the writing to the storyboard process. They were as much his puppets as the actors were. And to infer that WHO Hitch collaborated with determined the success of a Hitch film is a total misconception: collaborations with John Steinbeck and Raymond Chandler were vastly outshadowed by those with unknowns like Joe Stefano and John Michael Hayes. And he was at odds with Evan Hunter's literalized script for 'The Birds', as he sought more ambiguity. So your equation doesn't work. A film failed or succeeded because of Hitchcock, not them. Whether you think one or a few of his films were 'execrable' is your own problem; NONE of them are 'empty', as Jon called it. That's MY central point. Weaker films certainly include Topaz, To Catch A Thief, and Family Plot but they are few in measure to the great body of work he did throughout his career and they still have the same subtexts. Any of you misguided bozos see the films he did in Britain or during his silent period, like 'The Lodger' or 'The Farmer's Daughter'? Yes...I DO put Hitchcock above his collaborators...but only in the sense that I do with Wilder and Kubrick; all three were the engineers in control of the blueprints. In sum, you guys are fulla shit...I'm right...and life is that simple) my response goes to you.
Here was the problem with Selznick: drawn by the power of Hitch's British films he brought him over to do 'Rebecca', as you pointed out. Problems between the two began almost right away because they had their visions and their own styles. Hitch wanted to do things HIS way and he couldn't because Selznick was the boss at this point. Examples: Hitch would invariably take the core of a short story or novel and sweep aside the rest to framework it with his own themes. Selznick wanted to make adaptations - particularly the love stories - faithful to their sources. Hitch's editing method from the start of his career was to plan and storyboard every shot, leaving almost NOTHING on the editing room floor; Selznick always wanted lots of footage to toy around with in the editing room. So they both had their methods and their visions. In their projects to follow this creative friction only worsened. By the time they were doing 'Paradine Case' Hitch was more than anxious to get out of his contract so he could do things entirely his way. He could be NO ONE'S puppet and Selznick had been used to puppets for many years. Hitch, essentially, wanted all the puppets to himself. So, I'm not demeaning Selznick's talents. He had an incredible filmography, including 'The Third Man' (which I'll take to 'Gone with the Wind' any time). I'm just saying they stifled each other's creative objectives and you would never see pure Hitchcock in the American phase of his career until he'd been free of Selznick.
Washu,
Re: Wells adaptations. As we're talking about another British genius here, I would commit murder for more Wells adapatations - if only they would remain faithful to the works of the master. 'Moreau' AND 'The Time Machine' are fucking beautiful, extraordinary novellas. I loathe the recent Hollywood desecrations. Simon's great granddaddy ought to come down and put him over his knee with horsewhip in hand.
ZOE!
Could you post the place to find your story again? I'd love to take a look but I can't find it!
Cindy
CHRIS!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
I can wait as long as it takes. I'll send it right there.
Where are you going? I don't get out much so you can help me live vicariously. Cross country sounds exciting.
Cindy
Cindy,
I would be more than happy to read your screenplay. The only reason I haven't asked for a copy is that I am leaving on a cross-country trip in a week and I won't have time to read it until I get back. If you don't mind waiting until June for me to take a gander at your opus (that sounds dirty, doesn't it?) then sign me up.
Jay -- George wrote sf stories about Barbie, and collected kitschy
Barbie stuff.
Faisal,
I don't know if I thanked you for the information about translating my Final Draft version into a form that could be read by those without Final Draft.
You're keen.
THANK YOU!
:)
Cindy
CHRIS!
I thought Panic room WAS intense, but it doesn't take much to unnerve me when it comes to home intruder scenarios. I agree with the gas lighting-- I thought that was hilarious! Especially when the guy's arm caught on fire. I was laughing out loud (I was the only one in the theater to do so). I figured the film was over when that happened and like you I marveled that they thought we'd buy her response to that threat. But I was geared to "go there" and I kept watching. No I didn't think there was a chance than any of the main characters would be offed. Still I LOVED the opening credits!!!!!!!! I can't believe you didn't, but then maybe you've BEEN to a city. LOL!
As entertaining as I though Panic Room was-- I wouldn't go see it again. It wasn't THAT good. Quite frankly I enjoyed reading your posts today a whole hell of a lot more than the film. But your posts were EXCELLENT!! I was laughing so hard at your Time Machine observations that one of my kids came in from another room and asked what was so funny. I WILL go see Time Machine JUST so I can see the carriage scene of the girl's demise. GOD what a hilarious description!!! I thought your subsequent idea of how they could have made it even better was PRICELESS! Do you write screenplays? If so I'd love to read them. >
CHRIS????? READ MY SCREENPLAY PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE? I think it's better than Panic Room. I don't think it will bore you. And nobody puts a flame retardant blanket over her head and lights a gas filled room.
lol!
Right now I'm trying to get as much feedback as I can because I think there's a glitch there somewhere and I've looked at it so long that I can't find it. Different people will see different things. I want it to be as close to perfect as I can make it before I send it off to the festival. ANYBODY who helps me will be appreciated more than a fair amount.
C'mon, Chris pleeeeeeeeeeeeease?
Cindy
Harlan:
Never read any Effinger but condolences on his departure. I shall look out for his stuff (along with Tiptree's).
Chris,
Sorry, I couldn't find The Time Machine unintentionally funny, I thought it was a bit clunky and thought the future scenes were quite silly (and I could not believe the Lunar holiday camps excavation methods) but otherwise, it was lifted up by Guy Pearces performance. There were some good moments, including the visit to the destroyed library and the meeting between Iron's Morlock and Pearce. I could understand hating the film if you just remembered the last ten minutes (where did that get spliced from!) but otherwise I had no problem with it... and I did not find Pearce's girlfriends death at all funny. Did I miss something there?
I saw The Devils Backbone and do reccomend it though its the setting that makes it more worthwhile that the ghost story. Comparing it to Blade 2 though is like comparing a Lethal Weapon sequel to The Innocents.
Pauline Kael:
I have mixed feelings about her, she did write some interesting reviews but she also had a habit of using her column for personal attacks against film makers which had little to do with the films. She attacked Kubrick for giving his daughter a small cameo on 2001, would never give a favorable review to any Paul Schraeder film (he was a former 'Paulette') and repeated GM black propaganda when it came to looking at Michael Moore's doc 'Roger & Me'. Moore writes about trying to rebut Kael's accusations but was denied by the New Yorker who, apparently, did not print letters at the time.
Best.
FAQ
Lots of great wolf flicks,but ...any books...like folklore...some Bulfinch for supernatural legends?
Anyone?
Another great werewolf novel: Jack Williamson's DARKER THAN YOU THINK. This and the Endore are essential renderings of the lycanthropy myth, and are easily found. Again, read 'em.
You guys want to see a good flick? Forget all this PANIC ROOM and TIME MACHINE foofaraw, and go watch THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE (EL ESPINAZO DEL DIABLO). I finally caught a screening a couple of weeks ago, and was BLOWN AWAY. With all apologies to MEMENTO, AMORES PERROS, IN THE BEDROOM, THE BELIEVER, MULHOLLAND DRIVE and GOSFORD PARK, THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE is, hands down, the best film of 2001. This ghost story set in an orphanage during the Spanish Civil War is evocative, richly textured, and haunting as Hell. Guillermo del Toro's script reminds me of James (M.R. AND Henry) in places, and his direction is deft and assured. (Forget Blade II, this is leagues away from that movie.) Also, this film has a really nice, understated use of CGI, which is a rarity these days.
I can't emphasize this enough: SEE IT. If it's not playing in a local theatre, hunt down the video/DVD when it appears. You WILL thank me.
Harlan~ There are never enough tears when you love someone. Each tear shed for our loved ones passed makes their journey down the river easier, connects them to us one final time as they trail a fingertip in the water. The day there are no more tears is the day we take that journey ourselves.
Shane~ RE: Wayne Brady, a damn talented comedian. Is it a sin to say he was the black guy on "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" Or are we just left to assume as much from the list of impersonations that he nails? He is one of the most gifted improvisational actors I have ever seen. Having been an improv street actor, I can say I've learned a thing or two from all of the talent on that show. I just don't understand why we can't come out and say, the black guy on WLIIA. I feel like Crocodile Dundee talking about the 'black fellas'. "It's an accurate description, innit?"
Decidedly anti-PC and recalling Bradbury's words about there being more than one way to burn a book, I remain,
L.
CHRIS L:
You said it. After ISLAND OF DR. MOREAU and now THE TIME MACHINE, a lot of us should sign a blood pact to unleash the ebola virus within the heart of Hollywood if we're fed ONE MORE teeth-grinding H.G. Wells adaptation.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Faisal:
Great comments on Hitchcock. I think Cindy said she'd never seen a Hitchcock film she didn't like - I'm thinking Cindy hasn't seen some of Hitch's duds. That's nothing to hold against him. Everyone other than Kubrick has made bad movies. As much as I love his best material, I find myself getting bored sometimes with even his mid-level work which is much better than other directors' but still feels somewhat unsatisfying to me because of the endless repetition and feeling of formula.
As for Time Machine, though, are you sure you saw the same movie I did? I mean, that movie was bad bad BAD BAD BAD!!! It was so bad, I think I wound up feeling a mild fondness for it. It is so inept it is perfect material for a future episode of MST3K should that glorious show ever return.
I thought the film was so bad it actually showed no sign of even being made by professional film-makers. It was as if they just picked a couple guys off the street and had them make a movie. Just basic, competent editing, writing and acting is hard to come by in the movie. I certainly hope the scene where the girlfriend gets run over by the carriage is meant to be funny because about 2/3 of the theater laughed out loud when it happened. I think they meant it seriously though, judging by Pearce's reaction to the event.
Actually, at that point, they could have saved the movie by turning it into a full-blown comedy rather than an inadvertent one. They could have had himkeep coming back in time trying to save her but each time she winds up getting killed in funnier, more absurd ways. He would get so jaded by it, he wouldn't even react to her various deaths and he would eventually just give up and wander somewhereelse in time.
As it was, this movie was every bit as bad as any Ed Wood movie or Manos, the Hanf of Fate or Robot Monster or any similar dreck. Which makes it better, in its way, than crap like Planet of the Apes.
I'm not trying to dig up any dirt or trash or anything with this question, so please don't jump on me as a ghoul: I looooved George Alec Effinger's work. I was just packing up a bunch of books to prepare for my eventual move, and when I came across my Effinger section I made a mental note that it was time to do some re-reading. This was Friday night.
Now he is gone and I am taken back with shock. It appears that some of you on the board are aware of WHY he is gone....comments about finally being at peace. My God, I know nothing about what has been going on.
Please, don't take this the wrong way, but he was one of my favorite SF/Fantasy authors and I am interested in knowing what happened to bring down more of Death's 'charms' upon those who least deserve it.
-TODD
Rick - Great news! Good for you...
Harlan - that feeling is the price paid for experiencing the world and the people in it. Taking chances. Yes, awareness of how dark the world can be, yet still having a willingness to explore, to find some of the nobility and friendship out there. Some say the human heart is the seat of emotions and home to many conflicts and contradictions. That's what makes those leaps of faith and discovery all the more daring.
P.A. Berman - re: your post of Friday 26th April.
My wife, the doctor, is a teacher. When we met, she was director of testing and assessment for her district. Since she is an educator first and not a politician, she made the choice to return to working with learning disabled students one-on-one. It wasn't an easy decision, and she's had many challenging days. When you find yourself in that place, wondering what you could have done differently, remember "the person who saves one life eventually saves the world." Hang in there.
Hitchcock.
Alfred Hitchcock was a fine film maker but to elevate him above his collaborators does both them and the films a disservice. Hitchcock knew how to tell a story visually, he did not know what stories to tell and thats why he hired great writers such as Ernest Lehmann (North by Northwest), Anthony Schaffer (Frenzy) or Evan Hunter (The Birds) to provide or adapt scenarios of which he directed.
I pay some credence to William Goldman's remarks that Hitchcock may have felt overwhelmed by Truffaut and co. concerning his work, which was very well done entertainment, and elevated them to something else. Thus explaining why Hitchcock went from working on popular thrillers to mis-fires such as The Birds or Topaz.
Hitchcock made some great films, he also made some bad ones. To Catch a Thief is smugly weak, Topaz is just excreable and Rope is an over-rated technical exercise that would be later emulated in live TV drama.
Hitchcock worked with good people, but as soon as they weren't around, the quality of his films went down. Look at something like Vertigo (My favourite Hitchcock film) and compare it to Torn Curtain. There is already a noticable difference in tone due to the sacking/resignation of regular composer Bernard Herrmann.
But I do wish that H.G. Wells did not discourage Hitchcock from pursuing an adaptation of War of the Worlds, it would be a much better adaptation than the current version we have.
BTW - Has anyone seen the new adaptation of The Time Machine. It was actually quite good until the last ten minutes. I wish I could have walked out at the point where Guy Pearce and Jeremy Irons go mano el mano. Otherwise, I was surprised by the attacks this film recieved and it being interpreted as a comedy. It was anything but that.
FAQ
Cindy,
Well,that's why I told you to see Panic Room even though I hated it.
To answer your question, I was in a good mood and fully expected to enjoy the movie. I didn't like Fight Club but there wereenough good things in that movie that I still had Fincher relatively high on my list of directors who are must-see.
I just hated every choice he made in Panic Room. Opening credits? Annoying as hell. But people have raved about them.
As for intense, honestly, I am at a loss to understand how anyone could think that about this movie but, again, there are plenty of people who felt that. I found the entire scenario so ludicrous and the characters so uninvolving, I could never feel any tension in even a single scene. I really wanted to either leave or go out to my car to grab my a book and there were a few times I just closed my eyes and dozed off a bit.
I feel the scene with Jodie Foster lighting a spark (that shouldn't be too much of a spoiler) is so colossally, monumentally, legendarily and titanically stupid, it sets some kind ofnon-Pauly Shore record in the history of cinema. It did make me laugh, though, just to think that any writer or director could actually put such a scene in their movie.
Basically, it's a seige movie where there's never a threat to anyone and none of the characters are of any interest. Did you, for even one tenth of one second, feel there was even the slightest chance anything would happen to the two main characters? I never did.
Hey Rob,
I am with you, I've never seen a Hitchcock film I didn't like, but what was that about David O. Selznick?
Alfred Hitchcock's agent couldn't get a bid for him at the time Selzneck signed him. He hadn't worked on an American film until Selznick hired him to direct Rebecca. Selznick was responsible for giving Hitchcock the publicity buildup which afforded him the power he needed to create his peerless brand of art.
Selznick was one of the biggest proponents of all times of strict adherence to the original book or story. He said he never understood why motion picture people insist on throwing away something of proven appeal to substitute things of their own creation. I believe that is why he was able to produce Gone With The Wind with such astounding results.
Although I personally would have enjoyed seeing Hitchcock's adaptation of the beginning of Rebecca in which Max is smoking a cigar that makes other passengers on the boat sick, I can see why Selznick demanded fidelity to the original to maintain the integrity of the film.
He was one of the greatest filmmakers of all times.. if not THE greatest filmmaker of all times.
IMHO
Cindy
JAY- Working on? Not 'zactly sure which area you mean, so I'll tell you the two major things. In the reading department, I'm doing my best to read three things at the moment, "Left Hand of Darkness" for the Sci-Fi course, "Play It As It Lays" for American Lit, and "Essential Ellison" (I'm skipping around, just finished reading "I have no mouth...") for fun. All make interesting night-time reading. In the writing department, I'm editing and working on a "short" story of mine (URL is posted about 60 or more postings ago).
Did I answer the right question? *grin* 'Cuz other than that, I'm workin' on graduating... two and a half weeks!
--Dot-a-licious
--Zoë Rose
Aw, for the love of God, will this month never end? George Alec Effinger meant a lot to me.
Though George lived in New Orleans, he was a Cleveland local--grew up right next to Euclid Beach Park, which, when we were all ripening and small, was Cleveland's Disneyland. There have been a hundred homages to the old place, but none better than GAE's "Terrific Park," a strange little story where Euclid Beach is instantly recognizable to any clevelander of the right era.
George was also an early promoter of this medium. He was active in the early years of the Literary Forum, so long ago, some of us were still calling this the ARPAnet. He even arranged to put an entire novel ---THE EXILE KISS-- online before its publication. I've always been honored that he chose my little forum instead of the specifically science-fiction forum on the same ISP.
He was an experimenter, and a laughing madman. Who but GAE would have written a book called MAUREEN BIRNBAUM, BARBARIAN SWORDSPERSON? Who else could have pulled it off? Make no mistake, this stuff is the "Legally Blonde" and "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer" of its era, done much better and much, much earlier.
I called the New Orleans AP (who is one of my online staff, actually) to let her know about this. I hope that'll lead to good coverage. He deserves it.
--Alex
I went to see Panic Room last night. It was intense and I did get into it. The camera shots that Chis was talking about didn't bother me that much, but I'm not preganant. I think if I had been it might have made me want to whoops a couple of times. Chris are you sure you were in an even keeled mode when you saw it? I've noticed that if I'm in a bad mood or the day has been particularly stressful sometimes things grate on my nerves that might not otherwise.
Jodie Foster is just hard to beat. Forrest Whittaker was perfectly cast. Dwight Yoakum... well I'm a HUGE Dwight Yoakum fan from way back. Even if Sharon Stone said dating him was like eating a " dirt sandwich", he plays white trash with the highest degree of authenticity of any actor I've ever seen. Now he adds consumate bad guy to the growing list of his specialties.
You HAD to love the opening credits--SPECTACULAR! I almost thought it wasn't going to matter how bad the film was, the opening credits were so amazing I got my four bucks worth.
I went to see Show Time with my second daughter a couple of weeks ago, she was in a rotten mood. During the first part of the film she was getting agitated and it had nothing to do with the film. She said, " Is there even a PLOT in this thing?" A few moments later there was a closeup shot of Robert De Nero and she leaned over and said, " He needs to get that thing removed from his face." GEEEZE, Savannah could you be a little critical?
As in Nature vs. Nurture, I think it's 60-40. 60% film- 40% previously exixting mood.
Cindy
I hadn't seen it here - of course, I may have missed it completely, so excuse me if this is a rerun - but Reginald Rose passed away back on April 20th at age 81. That he wrote "12 Angry Men" was enough in my book; but I found him and Paddy Chayefsky through my early Rod Serling fixation, and where I could find his plays (or teleplays), I was justly rewarded.
KAREN -
I have to ask: What about the Barbie?
ZOE(dot-dot) -
Whatcha workin' on?
JOSEPH -
It's fun. I wish I could give the kid a radio headset so when he's out in left field looking for lucky clover I can warn him about the pop fly heading his way.
Out tracking werewolves last night...time for sleep.
Jay
Jon,
I'll accept your correct spelling of Kael opposed to my Kale but I pretty much stop there. What was it you said? "Hitch is pretty empty when without the right collaborators"? That's, in my view, arguable at best. I utterly disagree with the comment: One, because ANY 'collaborator' did things as he would have them do. Two, whether it was one of his tv episodes directed by himself - I saw four, one with Joseph Cotten as a man paralyzed from head to toe in a car wreck, the entire episode composed of shots of him lying there unable to speak - or any of his films under his full control (opposed to when Selznick was in charge) the cynicism and dark humor that characterized his subtexts of paranoia, identity, punishment, absolution, and 'moms' were always there. His personal neuroses and eccentricities were imprinted on everything he did. The touch of genius. So, whether the work was one of his successes or failures it was never - understand? - NEVER 'empty'. Three, your supposedly much-needed collaborators did not always measure up (to suit what he was after, that is) - people like Raymond Chandler who he'd let go and Evan Hunter - and still he'd emerge with a brilliant success.
Kael couldn't handle his preference to repeat himself thematically. Yet, whether we're talking about his archetypal outings like Frenzy, North By Northwest or The 39 Steps; or his more eccentric variations like Vertigo, Rear Window, Lifeboat, Psycho, Strangers on a Train, or The Birds; or his experiments like Rope, the strokes that were his signature made every one of those films artistically unique. And failure or success, you can look at them all over and over and over and discover nuances you didn't see before (Rear Window is a helluva an example). All you have to do is look at his beginnings - films like The Lodger and Blackmail - and you see the consistancies no matter who he'd been collaborating with. In his early days he was influenced by Murneau and the Magic Realist painters like de Chirico.
I'm not going to scrounge for passages I read by Kael a long, long time ago. I gave you the essence of her gripe - to me a vacuous one. But I know there were a number of essays I felt were very near-sighted. I no longer remember them specifically.
You were WAY off on this one.
I just heard about George, and I'm very, very sorry. The last
time I spoke with him, he said he was starting to write
again, and that he was rediscovering how much fun it was.
I was just thinking about him the other day and wondering
if he was still finding it fun. I can't believe he won't be
wandering into any more rooms and starting up a discussion on
Barbie. (I haven't been able to look at a Barbie for years
without thinking of George.) I hope he really is at peace,
finally.
It's two in the A.M. and I'm wide awake - how's that for sick and wrong?
PETER- My thanks for the critique you sent me and the posted backing - far more than I deserve, so my thanks.
RICK- Good luck in GA. I also have some family/friends who live in Atlanta, so I'll ask around and see if anyone has got some useful information for ya re: rental housing, etc.
HARLAN- My condolences; thankfully, only a few more days in April left. Here's to hoping for a brighter May.
JIM DAVIS- Thanks for the suggestions. I might creep in and take a look at possibly sending the story a few places, we shall see!
Well, nothing better than a night spent catching up on the 'board posts and reading a few stories, eh?
--Dotted and dotty,
--Zoë Rose
Rob re: Kael: Which parts of Kael related to Hitchcock piss you off? I've always found the comments of Pauline Kael and others about Hitchcock to be refreshing tonics at points -- namely, riffs about Hitchcock's movies being really good movies when they're written by good screenwriters and acted by good actors. I find Hitchcock criticism to be bumpff when it asserts the wonderfulness of _The Birds_ or _Marnie_ or _Topaz_ when the movies lack engaging characters, engaging dialogue, and much of anything else except techincal skill. Hitchcock's greatness as a director may be defined by some by the watchability of a film like _The Birds_, but Hitch is pretty empty without collaborators who can do something, or who at least have enough power to assert themselves on the set.
Kael's love for DePalma, though, is a bit baffling.
Jon
...I mean, "none ARE always right"
Chris,
Don't get me going on Kale...her comments on 2001 only scratch the surface; her comments on Clockwork were equally narrow-minded as were her precis on Hitch and Wilder. Step on their feet (unreasonably) and I leave the auditorium. All three did so much work that moved me deeply.
...and Joseph,
Since your comments on Ebert and Siskel have some relevance here: the interesting thing about Siskel supposedly not liking sf is that 2001 was his number one favorite movie of all time. For this reason I think he raised the bar for sf movies and what he demanded of them (although he underrated 'Altered States' terribly), thereby creating a good balance for Ebert's inordinate generosity. With Siskel gone I think that check is gone and it has left Ebert seeming a bit more looney. All the same, there's no one we agree with all the time. The important message those guys gave us with their chemisty and their heated arguing as critics - for the first time ever - is that none in their profession is always right. It was a departure from the eons of ego-driven self-indulgence critics had suffocated us with - and largely continue to do so.
Earlier babble here inspired me to put on a lycanth movie so I just watched 'American Werewolf in London' - nearly my favorite of the genre...
Griffin Dunne (as the talking 'meat loaf' of the Walking Dead): "David...I'm not having a good time here."
Hey Harlan, how's Ed doing, by the way? Do please give him my best the next time you talk to him.
J
Harlan: Ooof. I can recall reading several of Mr. Effinger's short stories over the years, in a number of collections the names of which now escape me. But I recognized seeing his name again, years later, because I really liked the stuff. I particularly remember stories he wrote for the delightful Batman books Martin H. Greenberg edited, years ago. I am deeply sorry for your loss. And I worry. Please check in again soon and let us know how you're doing.
J
The Wayne Brady Show
http://www.abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/waynebrady/index.html
ALL: Laurie and I have just returned from a deeeLIGHT filled evening watching Wayne Brady perform. This is the third time we've paid cash money to attend his show and this was the best one to date. For those of you who are scratching your heads, Brady is on the Thursday night ABC show, "Whose Line Is It Anyway?," hosted by Drew Carey. Brady isn't the tallest guy (Ryan Stiles), nor is he the baldest guy (Colin Mochrie), but he is the singingest/dancingest guy. He also had his own show briefly last summer and even briefer last fall. His 1 1/2 hour act incorporated elements of both shows, with a finale that'll rock you back on your heals: he does spot-on impersonations of Stevie Wonder, Louis Armstrong, Sam Cook, James Brown, Sammy Davis, jr. and a hilarious parody of Michael Jackson. If he comes to your town, please take the opportunity to see him live, you'll have a GREAT time.
http://abc.abcnews.go.com/primetime/whoselineisitanyway/index.html
Shane
What can I say, I'm a Kaelite. I dug almost everything that mad, bad, dangerous-to-know woman wrote, even when she eviscerated something dear to my heart. She could really write, and she championed "lowbrow" movies when it wasn't cool to do so.
As for Roeper...the term "Peter Principle" springs to mind. (From the American Heritage Dictionary: "The theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent." In other words, unless they REALLY fuck up, people will be rewarded with a higher position if they stick around long enough, even when they're completely unqualified. I'm sure we all know someone from work this term applies to.)
Rob,
I'll give a paltry explanation for Ebert's occasional head-scratcher:
1) he tries to judge films based on well they work, not against other movies. Fair enough.
2) He's a self-admitted critic with his own opinions. Sometimes he gives a break to something he enjoys, even if it's not of the highest quality. But he'll freely admit it. any good critic will acknowledge that they have blind spots and prejudices; Siskel, for instance, never cared for science-fiction movies all that much, while Ebert was much more enthusiastic about them (one of the last arguments I remember of theirs was whether "Dark City" was genius or slop).
As for "Ginger Snaps," here's two websites to whet your appetite:
The official site:
http://www.gingersnapsthemovie.com/
A fan site with gorey pictures (slightly spoiley):
http://www.ginger-snaps.com/
And my last word on GS is: "Best piercing ever."
Regards,
Joseph
HAVING DECIDED THAT REALITY IS A MUG'S GAME, JIM RETURNS TO THE SAFE WOMB OF CYBERSPACE AFTER A WEEK'S ABSENCE:
RICK: I want to host Webderland for May, i.e. pay its bill for the month. Yes, I'm serious. Your little website has done a lot to edify and entertain me, and I want to return the favor. E-mail me with the amount, and I'll kite a check your way. (And don't even THINK of saying "No" to this. I'm in a real generous mood, so take advantage, schmuck.)
ON GEORGE ALEC EFFINGER: Damn. I really enjoyed his novel WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and his shorter work was always a hoot to read. I actually traded a few posts with him on an old Compuserve forum (I THINK it was Compuserve. I was a real ISP whore back in the early '90s--Prodigy, AOL, Compuserve, Pipeline, it didn't matter to me, I'd shove any 'ol disc in my floppy drive without thinking twice), and he was nothing less than polite and generous in his responses to me. Again, always: What a loss.
RE WEREWOLVES: The best fictional treatment of the lycanthropy myth that I've ever read is Guy Endore's THE WEREWOLF OF PARIS. This 1933 novel was a favorite of Robert Bloch, and is still in print, though you may have to do a little searching on-line. Excellent book with a very continental tone--it reads like something translated from the French, even though Endore was an American. Hunt it down, you won't regret it.
ZOE ROSE: I haven't read your story yet, but I will as soon as I get my new, fancy-shmantzy, space-age copier/fax/printer/scanner/cappucino maker to work. As it is, the damned thing is holding the title for Most Expensive Paperweight In The Davis Manse. One question: Why don't you try to publish this? I mean, you've actually written the thing, so why not get paid for it instead of letting any slobbo who creeps along print the whole thing for free? WRITER'S MARKET has a comprehensive list of short-story markets, if you don't know where to submit it.
SOME NAMES FOR BERMANATOR'S GERBILS: Franny and Zooey. Frick and Frack. Mick and Keith. Fillip and Dollop.
SCOTT AND MELISSA: Harlan and DTS are right. You guys need to lighten up a teensy bit. I mean, when the author of "How's The Night Life On Cissalda?" calls you a "termite", odds are good that he's only kidding. Hell, he can take as good as he gives--I think I called him a "rat bastard" in my second week here, and he didn't even bat an eye. (Is it really a Jewish thing, as Harlan suggests? Maybe. My Goyishe friends DO seem a little quicker to take offense at my seemingly-insulting-but-really-affectionate nicknames.) In any case, he means well, and a Harlan-induced injury is a rite of passage here. With all the scars and missing limbs, a gathering of Webderland regulars would look like a convention of Rubber slaves from the Congo, circa 1900.
FINDER: I know I'm late, but add my kudos to the pile regarding your chase of the purse thief. If people everywhere had some of your guts, there wouldn't be as much petty crime, you can be sure. (Though, in future, be careful if/when you do something like that again. Some of them DO carry weapons, as I once found out. No injuries, but I'm lucky I didn't get my intestines handed to me.)
As for the other thing...again, I wasn't trying to call you out or embarrass you. Sexuality can be a very hard road to travel, and none of us are given any maps at birth to navigate it. I'm 35, and I'm no better at understanding the whole whole sex/romance/intimacy ragout than I was at 16. Still, I'm glad for every foray with the opposite sex, no matter how disastrous the outcome; as cliched as it sounds, it really IS better to regret things you've done than things you've HAVEN'T done. Just don't let fear rob you of some wonderful experiences. If your last post is any indication, you richly deserve them. (And Hell, women throw themselves at SERIAL MURDERERS, for Chrissakes, so why shouldn't a gen-you-wine HERO get some action, as well?)
XANADU!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR READING INGENA for me!
My email's screwing up so I have to respond to your critique here.
Thanks for pointing out " lightning"-- I needed that! LOL! I'd like to blame it on the spellcheck but it all goes back to me not recognizing the error.
No theme, no message, buddy-- just a little yarn to distract and amuse. I'm with Samuel Goldwyn on that one. He said, " If you want to send a message go to Western Union."
lol!
I think you give me too much credit actually. It's a diversion, solely intended to entertain. Really!
I'll go back over the Nila and Jerome conversation, sounds like that needs to be looked at again.
I ALSO read my scripts aloud! Usually to my kids and a few others I trust. Speaking of my kids they'd shoot me if I took out the party scene in the middle of nowhere. That IS how these kids party in the Hill Country. It is an exact representation of rural Texas teenage recreation. A frightening, appalling and dangerous, and yet accurate depiction. This is how it's been in this Texas county for generations in spite of the rattlesnakes and cottonmouth water moccasins, rabid coyotes, bobcats and foxes AND mountain lions.
These kids jump off 40 ft.bluffs into the river( just pay attention to jump "out" there's a shelf of rock directly below but you'll be just fine, is how they put it) they chase cotton mouth water moccasins UNDER the water and CATCH them with their hands. They also catch rattlesnakes for money every early spring. About five years ago a highschool sophomore showed up at my back door with one, he said he figured my husband might want it and he didn't have a box for it. It was around four feet long and he had it by the head.
I would DEFINITELY put my teenagers in a safer place. I don't let my kids ride bikes! But I'll tell you something else about my own kids. My oldest girls were high school cheerleaders and my oldest son was a football player and they did these horrible things. So I got it from the source. After they grew up they told me the stories, verified by my husband ( 4th generation from this County)who did the same things when he was a kid.
But HEY they didn't run away and join a carnival!
LOL!
Tomato, tomahto. Kids everywhere do things that would mortify their parents if they knew.
My husband upon whom the Billy Character is based said that rural teenagers don't care about wild animals they grow up with them here. This is rural Texas and as he put it " They don't go to the Mall they go to the Pasture. They sneak down riverbeds drop behind bluffs and hide in ravines to build their campfires, so as not to be seen by the local law enforcement". He said he knows because he built them there when he was a kid and he caught them there when he was a cop.
He assures me that Ingena would not be something they would fear, she would be something that they prey upon.
I went to my big kids for accuracy when writing the teenager scenes. Pretty much drawn from life. On the jr. high age boy's scene I went to my 13 year old son for accuracy. He was the one that came up with the one kid correcting the other kid's english he says he does that to his friends and they hate it. Also he brought up the Pepsi gun control issue. I thought that was hilarious so I used it.
Lots of the script came from real life.
As for the Bovine Surrogacy Center, I thought that up 20 years ago, before they even started having successful trans-species gestational trials. I also came up with INGENA 20 years ago before everyone knew the term recombinant DNA. She was originally a short story.
As for making Billy more proactive.. there is a thought. I might have to go back to the drawing board on that one.
My instructors in the UCLA screenwriting program said they loved INGENA in fact one of them said he hated to use the phrase pulsepounding but he did. I hammered it out there with a gun to my head and a deadline each week.
I think it's tomato tomahto.. it's PANIC ROOM! But mostly it's about entertainment.
Tell me this.. did you read it all in one sitting? Were there places it slowed down or made your mind wander to the fridge? If so, then I need to know where so I can shore it up.
Meantime you are such a treasure for reading it for me! I would love to read something for you sometime if you like. You are a very remarkable and brilliant man and I would love to see what you build in YOUR garage.
:)
Cindy
I'm two-thirds done the new Robert Caro book on Lyndon Johnson-- I've just passed the account of his heart attack.
Gang, if you have NOT yet read Caro's books-- the three volumes on Johnson, and his masterful book on Robert Moses, _The Power Broker_-- you are missing out on something special. Caro isn't just a biographer, along the lines of Stephen Ambrose or David McCulloch. He ranks alongside of Gibbon or MacCauley. These are monumental, brilliant, informative, MANDATORY works that operate at the highest levels of history and biography.
There's another joy to be found here. For decades now, I've been reading and hearing people yabber on about the misunderstood genius of Richard Nixon. There's the bullshit about being "in the arena," the presentation of "triangular diplomacy" as some kind of insanely subtle masterstroke, the "brilliance" of the Southern Strategy, and much, much more. But as you read Caro, you learn that Nixon was a fucking mental _pygmy_ next to Lyndon Johnson. Just read Caro's account of how Johnson sank the Bricker Amendment, and _try_ to imagine Nixon pulling off the same feat. I get a great deal of satisfaction from knowing that.
There was a lot to like about Pauline Kael and a lot to just scratch your head over.
Her description of 2001: A Space Odyssey as "remarkably unimaginative" has to go down as one of the all-time stupidest things anyone has ever said or written. I mean, not liking 2001 is bad enough but to each his or her own, I suppose (no, not with 2001, actually) but to call it "unimaginative?"
I think that movie whizzed so far over her head she never even felt the breeze.
Harlan,
I saw your post only now: I'm very sorry about your losses this month.
Chris,
Well...after spending half the day retching upon reading, "...better than the original" and expelling the Roeper impurities from my system I can conclude the issue by saying I take occasional glimpses of Ebert and Roeper and that's it; haven't watched it since Siskel's frustrating all-too-early departure.
I agree a bit with your "schitzophrenic" stamp on Ebert's material; he'll thread his reviews of artistically worthy films with solid data to support his points, then give flicks like Star Trek: The Motion Picture or Blade three stars or more.
I used to like Richard Shickel and John Powers a bit. I was never able to warm up to Pauline Kale as she routinely thrashed three Masters: Wilder, Hitchcock and Kubrick. No: she was never able to win me over after that.
Harlan (m'favorite lycanthrope): GINGER SNAPS! That's one I'd never heard of. Y'got me curiosity. I'll look for it.
BTW, while we're on the subject of film: one time you told me Ken Russell caught your fancy. Could you tell me which films in particular? I never gave him a chance because I'd read so much negative stuff about him...from the critics.
Some time I would absolutely dig seeing your film library as I have an ample one myself. The memorabilia I saw had me transfixed salivating; beautiful stuff. I hope sometime you could tell me or us more about it...the vintage posters and books especially.
Harlan,
This month gets worse and worse. My consolations on Effinger.
Jay & Cindy,
I always remember the Dave Barry comment about t-ball and Little League. Think of it as every parent having a joystick, and your job is to control your player when the ball gets anywhere near them. Problem is, they're either active as hell or contemplating how nice of a blue the sky is - not a bad attitude to have during a Little League game.
Regards and best wishes,
Joseph
Cindy -
I noticed this in my son, too. It's just shock. He scooped up a grounder and threw it to first ahead of the batter and it blew his mind. He was just so excited he left the field to come tell his mother and I up in the stands. I had to escort him back to the field.
It's all new and exciting. Hitting the ball into the field (to the sound of cheers) and catching, running, stealing...just enjoying it all gives them pause to say "HEY! I DID IT!"
T-Ball is great because it focuses on the fundamentals and the skills over score and victory. While it's important to win, it's more important to learn HOW to win. I think T-Ball is time for kids like yours and mine to enjoy the game and have fun.
So if she's stunned, that's great. Eventually, she'll get used to it and move onto lesson #2...TAKE THE BASE! :)
Jay
Re Ebert and Roeper. Suddenly I'm happy in not knowing enough about a subject, because I have _never_ seen Ebert and Roeper. I don't know why I lost interest in watching Ebert and Siskel-- maybe it was the local affiliate's putting them on at odd times, I dunno. But I'd always liked Siskel, and I was pleasantly surprised when I noticed that I was agreeing with him more then Ebert. Who, apart from a few reviews I disagree with, has never struck me as a bad sort.
After Ebert and Siskel decided to go into syndication rather than stick with PBS, PBS restocked the show with Jeffrey Lyons and Michael Medved. Lyons struck me as a hyperactive dunce, and thus well-suited to mass-media figurehead-dom. But Medved was, and remains, a repulsive little troglodyte whose aesthetic sense is better suited to a Soviet Comissar than an American film critic. His book _Hollywood versus America_ was a vicious, dishonest piece of ugliness that, thankfully, didn't give him enough public recognition to give him a political career. This is a man who _aspires_ to the lofty heights of a William Bennett, for Crisesakes.
Meanwhile, he still draws breath while Geo. Effinger no longer graces us with his presence. I'd trade the two in a second.
Hey Jay,
My daughter just started T-ball too! She's five.
She can hit it harder than most of the kids on the team even though she's tiny for her age. The only problem is that as soon as she hits it she likes to admire her handiwork, laughing at the others who scramble after the ball. While she's enjoying the mayhem she forgets to run.
Any tips?
Cindy
5 Left at Amazon.com zshop
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y4712886Y6765641/qid=1019962329/sr=1-1/104-5701025-0440729
I can't think of a better way to spend my downtime than to start with that book. I will look for it now.
Harlan -
I send you all the positive energy I've earned this week. Most of it comes courtesy of my son who just started T_Ball Saturday and made me proud with his concentration and effort. I add the joy of watching him play, the pride of seeing him take his first base and the satisfaction of knowing this is the start of a long life of similar joys. I wrap this weekend up in a karmic ball and send it your way.
April sucked. Let's make May a time for honoring beginnings and renewal.
Humbly,
Jay
ON GEO. ALEC EFFINGER: Damn. Another falls. I don't have WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME anymore; I read it to death, gleaning something new in the story each time. Comments on Art, on history, on the sweet lies families tell ...
Effinger's name was always a billboard to me, stating that an anthology was worth buying--if it had one of his stories in it, the other material had to be good just to stand up. He had a madly comic style of writing that I would have dearly loved to have seen more of.
We've had enough deaths this past year already--someone tell her to LAY THE FUCK OFF ...
Incredibly old and crappy picture of me, HE, and Effinger at:
http://harlanellison.com/gallery/images/elliefme.jpg
Christ, what a month.
Faisal:
The problem with organic chemistry?
Way too much carbon. I mean, what's with the carbon fixation? Carbon sucks.
Harlan:
Suggestion noted. I have already ordered What Entropy Means to Me. If it gets to me in time, it will be the first book I read on my upcoming trip. I may wind up reading it while I'm visiting the Badlands in South Dakota. That's a perfect place for encoutering great literature.
Oops. Sorry.
RE: MY PAL, PIGLET:
You want to read Effinger? You want to be knocked out at what a Golden Child he was? Read his first novel, WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME. Start there, I urge you. Start there.
he
RE: MY PAL, PIGLET:
You want to read Effinger? You want to be knocked out at what a Golden Child he was? Read his first novel, WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME. Start there, I urge you. Start there.
he
Hey, whats wrong with organic chemistry!?!
FAQ
I checked a few links on George Alec Effinger and the first one gave me a smile.
http://www.dragoncon.org/people/effingg.html
**George was born in Cleveland, Ohio in 1947, and attended Yale University, where an organic chemistry course disabused him of the notion of becoming a doctor. **
Damned if the same thing didn't happen to me. Stinking organic chemistry. I swapped an unofficial pre-med track for psychology.
I admit I have not read any of his work. Since I always feel awkward commenting on the passing of people I didn't know for fear of being disrespectful, I will do the best thing I can and immediately read some of his writing.
Here's another link to a bibliography:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/George_Alec_Effinger.htm
Sir:
You are, if not the most annoying, the most delightful curmudgeon/prankster/imp/charmer I've ever met. I think part of the problem is in the respect I have for a very talented writer. Please understand, we both don't see ourselves, at least in the matter of literary skill or talent as being in the same league as you. After all, I don't have a website named for me, with folks more than happy to converse with me.
Any perceived affront from you towards us has been as quickly forgotten as it was issued. Yes, we might appear to be a bit high strung, but we do keep coming back. After all, you seem to attract some high quality people here, some of whom I would wager have had to go through this little rite of passage. You must admit, you do take a bit of getting used to, and of course, that is likely purely intentional.
Rick: Good to hear that things are turning up. I've heard it said that those who are good enough make their own luck. Maybe you're just proof postive of that.
Now, if all will excuse, I've purchased a copy of "The Seven Samurai", a film I've honestly never seen and one of Scotty's favorites.
Melissa
Rick,
My best friend lives in Atlanta and is a mensch of all mensches. I don't know what kind of info you need but I can ask him if he can help. Let me know.
Oh holy crap...Effinger, too? The same month as Damon Knight? Somebody needs to tell that dried-up bitch Atropos to take a damn break already!!!
I didn't read a lot of his stuff ("The Bird of Time" [sp?] years ago), but I was very impressed with the Budayeen stories. Arab-Muslim Cyberpunk -- such a simple idea to state, but so difficult to achieve...I waited years for the follow-up to "The Exile Kiss" -- now it'll never happen.
APRIL IS, INDEED, THE CRUELEST MONTH:
I have lost so many friends this month. Henry Slesar. Dudley Moore. Ray Lafferty. Milton Berle, whom I knew from our days on THE OSCAR at Paramount, and lunches at Oblath's and The Nickodell. Betty Shapian, the world's best publicist and a long-time pal, from way back in Doubleday days. Damon Knight.
-----------------------
I just got a call from his ex-wife, Barbara Hambly:
George Alec Effinger passed away in his sleep last night, in New Orleans. Released at last, rest in peace, Piglet.
It seems I am not as empty of tears as I thought.
Rick,
Glad to hear things are going well for you!
Kerry
Ah, I take a couple days off after a CRAPPY ASS Friday morning, and what happens?
- The gent who sent me that lovely e-mail apologizes for acting childlishly and promises to not err again.
- Heather returns, doesn't escalate, and deals maturely with what must have seemed like a bit of a pile-on
- I get a nice job offer from my company in Atlanta (so nice, in fact, it's going to force me to move back to Atlanta)
- Harlan shows up an entertains us all with his insouciant wit
What a nice bit of stuff to retun to!
Now, if any of you folks know someone in the environs of Atlanta, shoot me a line. I'm starting a search for a rental (probably a house) that can hold me and a 200 lb dog.
Toodles - Rick
Movie "critics" mostly know nothing EXCEPT movies. All too seldom do they know squat about anything else that provides context to the movies. Exhibit A: Ebert's willingness to let Lucas spout on about how he based Star Wars on Joseph Campbell. Had he consulted a recognized anthropologist, he would have discovered just how ill-thought Campbell's work is, and he would have discovered that Lucas's remarks weren't even faithful to that.
Many, many moons ago, before Gene's first operation, we used to watch Siskel & Ebert. Our first choice would be movies that Gene liked and Roger either didn't like or was indifferent to. Roger's opinion has since changed in some respects; I remember his lukewarm review of Apocalypse Now, of All That Jazz, of The Stunt Man (all from a single year), and his enthusiasm for Kramer v. Kramer. Gene's opinion was the other way. I think time and distance have validated Gene's views on 1979.
In any case, in a couple of hours this year's Nebula winners will be announced. Those of you with much sense of perspective will note that one award that is normally given is not being given at all. And therein lies a tale that, sad to say, is very much like the problems with Ebert and Talkinghead.
P.S. If you want to see just how incompetent the producers of that show really are, try surfing to ebertandroeper.com or ebertandroper.com (with no kids in the room). I found out about this when a couple of the other parents at my oldest son's school mentioned their shock when they tried to find Ebert's review of the Harry Potter movie last November...
MR. ELLISON
I understand you spent some time with the traveling carny. Your account in "Gopher in the Gilly" was quite interesting. If I understood correctly, you only spent a short time with them but you were able to paint a vivid picture of the seedy, lecherous undertones of the side show.
I'm curious if those were observations you made as boy, or something you came to understand later in life?
Also, is there an account of those small, dirty carnies out there that you'd recommend to get a better understanding of how they operated or collected stories of that time?
Thanks.
I'd like to toss in a recommendation for Zoë's story. She really is a gifted storyteller. Needs work, but _damn_ if it ain't mostly technical.
---Peter
CINDY! Got it. Will review tonight once the Missus has gone to bed.
ALEX JAY! Interesting twist on the werewolf legend. What do you recommend as source material for the legend?
I'm more interested in reading recommended texts on the folklore, history and variations of the werebeast. The modern interps I've read have a pseudomedical explanation like the one you debunk. Blood taint leads to genetic mutation or cellular disruption. That sort of thing.
I just had this image of a scene where a man has been pursued by a werewolf for hours through a deserted city. He finds himself on a rooftop still vigilant as the sun rises. He breathes a sigh and laughs. He turns and collapses against the eastern ledge and rests his eyes. He hears a growl, turns and sees the werebeastie standing on the western ledge, a wide full moon behind him still many degrees above the horizon.
Nothing complete, yet, but...
Harlan/Susan: Thanks a million for relieving the concerns and lunch is on me when you come to F-L-A!
And had I bothered reading all of the posts before jumping directly to Harlan's I would have noticed that Joseph's correction.
Somebody, quick, smack in me head
SCOTT & MEL: I know we've never tossed notes back and forth at each other on this board, but I gotta tell you guys -- yer a couple of pansies. Quit running to your room every time HARLAN makes with the playful jibes. Hell, first time he met me he shook my hand, smacked me on the head and called me a dickless wonder (or maybe that was his bastard son, Dan Simmons -- I get the two mixed up). But he's called me plenty of names since then, and I always fell honored. Don't you guys needle your buddies? Personally, when I like someone I can't refrain from teasing them from time to time. Harlan's that way. If you want him to be curt, to the point, and generally inattentive, then you'll have to get on his bad side. Until then, come back out of your rooms (and bring the ball with you okay) and toughen up a little.
-- DTS
Harlan:
A quick correction if I may. Roger and Roeper (or, as I like to call them, the critic and the fratboy) work for our competitors, the Chicago Sun-Times, place from which Mike Royko ran screaming like a banshee when it was acquired oh so many moons ago by Rupert Murdoch.
Ain't I the corporate lackey?
I suspect Harlan is right about Roeper being accepted by the network as the most banal of the choices to replace the sorely missed Gene Siskel. Even somebody as bland as Joyce Kulhawik (sp?) would havebeen a superior choice. I suppose it was too much to hope that Peter Bogdanovich was going to do anything more than the occasional cameo on that show.
I wouldn't characterize Roeper as an effete snob, though. He's too low-rent and anti-intellectual for that. This is the guy who made room on his Top Ten list for Shallow Hal and thought Not Another Teen Movie was hilarious. Roeper is a tyro and a simpleton. Gene Siskel's corpse would do a much better job. No disrespect intended to Mr. Siskel and his memory, of course.
Roger Ebert remains a favorite of mine but his work seems to have schizophrenic quality to it. His print reviews are insightful and his knowledge of film history is matched only by a handful of cineastes in the world. I've spent the last several months using Ebert's Great Movies' list as a guide for both viewing and study. Just in the last week, I've seen Last Year in Marienbad, The Last Laugh, Persona and Pandora's Box and have used Ebert's reviews as a launching point for further research on each film. I liked them all with Marienbad really striking a chord for me.
For all his scholarly work and genuine enthusiasm for the medium, Ebert still has this inexplicable fondness for selected Hollywood dreck. A thumbs up to Tomb Raider? Roger, Roger, don't embarass yourself!
I'd love to hear him talk more about his experiences working with Russ Meyer though. Meyer was no Kubrick but if you watch some of his movies, you'll see that the man was a damn fine film editor.
Harlan,
Er...while I agree on the stupid demographic reasons for bringing Roeper on board (nothing against Roeper, but there were many better choices), there's a few errors in your conclusions. Buena Vista is a division of the asinine ABC/Disney conglomerate. Ebert and Roeper both write for the Sun-Times, a division of the Canadian-based Hollinger corporation, which also owns the Jerusalem Post, the Daily Telegraph and a bunch of other papers whose editorial pages have jumped to the right of George Ryan. (Incidentally, in verifying the spelling of Hollinger, I noted that they own an obscene amount of local newspapers in the Chicago area. Depressing as hell, considering how nutty their editorials have become.) Just noting. Really, the Tribune Company has nothig to do with Ebert and Roeper these days.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Not to toot my own horn, but I was the one raving about "Ginger Snaps" a few months ago (unless there was someone even earlier whom I am forgetting). Fabulously oddball movie.
SCOTTY, MEL:
The trouble with gentiles is that they let us yids whip guilt on them till they fall to their knees.
I was nuhdzing you.
It was in fun.
Of COURSE the previous brouhaha was put to rest.
Does that mean I cannot annoy the shit out of you?
Does that mean I'm forbidden snapping at you heels?
Does that mean I have to be as serious as you two?
(Listen, Scott, YOU got all warped out of shape when I called you a termite, with tongue in cheek. Who the hell was to know you'd get pissed? If I'd known, I wouldn't've joshed with you. I no more meant you were a "termite" than I would that you're Heinrich Himmler's illegitimate transsexual daughter!)
Don't be silly, Melissa.
You are not to take ANY of that riff as serious.
It is my JOB to discomfit, to harangue, to bark and howl.
If I can't insult and debase you, then what good is our being friends?
And I do wish the two of you (if in fact there ARE two of you, and not just S or M with an Ed Gein Syndrome, yes mother I'm coming) would LIGHTEN the ---- up. See, you've got me so badly unstrung that I cannot even use the King's English as the Good Lord intended without Bowdlerizing for fear I'll ---- you off.
I mean, can't you TELL this is all in jest? Have I ONCE mentioned yo mama?
You have distraught me with this advisement.
Please, PLEASE, tell me all is forgiven! I shall know no surcease till your forbearance is visited 'pon me. PLEASE end my travail! Plz.
I was clowning. Ridi. Pagliacci. Ridi.
Haplessly, supine, and remorseful,
Yo Mama.
ON WEREWOLVES, HAVING BEEN ONE:
You want a really TERRIFIC contemporary werewolf movie, go rent the Canadian low-budget but nonetheless knockout film GINGER SNAPS. One of our Canuck Webderlanders dropped a mention some months ago, so on the strength of that alone, we went out and rented it, Susan and I; and it was so good I bought one for my library. GINGER SNAPS.
And if you want a tasty bite of lycanthropy every week, you mizzuble buncha whiners, why aren't you watching Lou Diamond Philips starring in WOLF LAKE on UPN? It is smart, it is cool, it is intriguing. The Missuz and I wouldn't mizz it.
Howling for attention, I remain, yr. lap-dog, Howlan
Nothing like a weekend with Mel and the kids to put both heart and hale back in an aging, decrepid soul...
Mr. Ellison: Completely understood, and I'm remarkably envious. I'll close the question for now, but I would be remiss (to hell with understatement; I would be an incredible idiot) if I didn't say "Should you change your mind, let me know..."
Of course, that would mean standing in line, holding a ticket and hearing "Now serving 3.578 to the tenth power."
Now, to a comment of yours, one that seems to have Mel a mite confused.
"Particularly where Melissa is concerned. She sees me as Shylock already. But, listen, I don't take it to heart. I'm a poor Jew from Ohio, heir to 4000 years persecution. Why should your wife's remarks bother me?"
She was under the impression that, after the small misunderstanding, the matter was closed with no harm to either party. Shylock? Not hardly. She's not read that much of your work, but what she has read she's quite enjoyed. Your appearance on "Conspiracy Zone" was the first time she'd ever seen you in action and she not only found you charming, intelligent and funny, she thought you quite handsome (a small twinge of jealous, but I'm all better now). Hell, over the termite comment, she defended you to me fer Chrissakes!
She's read this, and is a bit hurt. Not angry, but thinking she's been misread somewhere. She doesn't want to know what comment triggered this feeling on your part, but she'd like you to know that she sees you as a decent, upstanding person trying to get along the best way you know. She respects you more than I do for (insert name of relevant deity or daemon here)'s sake.
Personally, I think we should just erase the board and start again.
Bermanator: Naming gerbils? My thought is to save up your money and buy a real pet, something along the lines of a cross between an Irish Wolfhound and a Greyhound Bus. Then you can name him Satan and teach him to eat little swastika drawing punks in one bite...or perhpas a train them in career of knocking over liquor stores to supplement your income.
Bag-O-Scott reminds you that gerbils, rabbits, mice, etc. are nothing more than little furry shit factories...
ON FILM CRITICS, HAVING BEEN ONE:
After James Agee, who should be the high-water mark for all of you, there were only a handful, led by Pauline Kael, who died recently. Most of them are simply fools. A few of them are anti-art, anti-movies, anti-entertainment.
Nonetheless, I adored Gene Siskel, and miss him terribly. With Gene, who was intelligent, kind, and a gentleman, to balance him, to keep him operating at a stratospheric level of craft, Roger was superlative. I've known Roger for thirty years (though trying to contact him in the last decade has been like trying to speak to the gatekeeper at Valhalla) and I've always thought he was doing decent work. Honest, informed, responsible.
But...
Disabuse yourself of the idea that ROGER brought Roeper in. Roeper was the most acceptable choice among all the tryouts-on-air ABC threw at him... most acceptable to the boneheaded venality of network "teeniebopper demographic" thinking. ABC wanted to "skew younger" and so, since the Chicago Tribune Syndicate owns the show, and Ebert works for the Trib, and Roeper works for the Trib...
Ta-DAH!
You get a parvenu. An officious, self-serving, posturing, argumentatively bullheaded and bullying punk. Look up "effete snob" in the OED, and you'll see Roeper's cartoony phizz staring back at you. I have no idea whether Roger LIKES the liaison as it now stands, but he's going for it, so he has lost all coin with me.
Bottom line?
For the first time since Siskel and Ebert came on PBS, decades ago, we no longer watch the show. It is out of touch, out of steam, and out beyond the fringe. My home is closed to them.
Roger is welcome to Roeper. But I shan't waste another half hour on them.
Stolidly, Harlan
ROB: True, true...maybe I'm just letting Jack's berserk performance from THE SHINING fog up my judgement. Keep in mind, though, that I had seen WOLF shortly after BATMAN, and the amazing restraint Nicholson is putting himself through as a human AND as a wolfman is startling, compared to his portrayal of the Harlequin of Hate. I'm still waiting for Jack to surpass his performance from FIVE EASY PIECES. Great shtuff.
ROEPER/PLANET OF THE APES DEBACLE: I don't know much about Mr. Roeper, but I am repelled by his 'better than the original' take. The minute you start comparing a remake to the original instead of judging it on it's own merits first is ultimately pointless and redundant. (Unless the remake happens to be THE BLOB or PSYCHO or ROLLERBALL or...)
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
HOO-HAW!
I bow to the Greater.
Berman has finally hit the most brilliant choice for the naming of the Brothers Gerbil:
"Shatner" and "Toupee" is cosmically inspired. No competition. You win Berman!
I bow to the Greater.
SCOTT & MELISSA:
Your assumption that the answer was "no" (see your own post for referrent) is both correct and incorrect.
We, in fact, have ENDLESS rare items of my work here in the vast subterranean Wonderland vaults...
The MEFISTO IN ONYX limited edition Death Cell hand-made steel box with French crushed-velvet lining, individually keyed, signed and numbered, created by Steve Kirk (who was head man at Disney's Imagineering for years). I haven't seen one offered in a few years, but the last time one popped up, it was (I think) in the stultifying ascendancy of $3-4000.
The STALKING THE NIGHTMARE carved wooden box limited edition, with the demon proffering the lock to be opened. Done in buckram leather, gold-edged, and on and on. Five grand. Considered by such antiquarian booksellers as Barry Levin as the single most beautiful limited ever published in the genre.
1st Edition Doubleday 1967 DANGEROUS VISIONS, mint condition with unsullied and unfaded dust jacket.
And on and on and on.
So, the answer is YES, we got 'em.
But the answer to selling them is NO. Because we need money, yet I cannot bring myself to sell stuff like this for the prices I know they'll bring, from strangers and dealers, to you guys. You may not be my dearest closest bosomest friends in the world, but you ARE my friends and neighbors, and I would have to bleed you to let go of these hot items...and I just cannot do it. As many of you know, from time to time I'll just send something you need, to one or another of you, as the spirit moves me. But I don't charge; and so I've put these treasures off-limits till we do the BIG HUMUNGOUS AUCTION. Yet do not fear: as I promised, before we go public with this stuff, it'll be offered to members of HERC first, in a special mailing. But at the moment--DO NOT NUHDGE ME WITH QUERIES ABOUT THE AUCTION--everything is in abeyance till I'm over my deadlines and have a spare moment.
If there's something you see on e-bay or somewhere, Scott, and it intrigues you, ask me if I've got an extra copy; let me know what it's selling for on the web; and perhaps I can do you some good. But...this is on a case by case basis.
Particularly where Melissa is concerned. She sees me as Shylock already. But, listen, I don't take it to heart. I'm a poor Jew from Ohio, heir to 4000 years persecution. Why should your wife's remarks bother me? Cut me, do I not bleed? Hurt me, do I not cry? Force me to listen to 'N Sync, does not my brain turn to barnyard mulch?
Humbly, yr. pal, Harlan
Good afternoon, all -
Well there's a link for any bored enough and curious enough to want to read my "short" story. It's not really that short, but oh well.
You know, I've never been a huge fan of movie critics myself. Granted, I don't know oodles about many of them, but I do know my taste is usually directly opposite most of the critics.
Quiet day - it's _still_ snowing, for the love- I'm trying with them weather gods but they ain't listenin'!
--Dotty,
--Zoë Rose
CHARLIE IN ST. PETE:
I am conveying for Susan. She says 2-2&1/2 months for return of the green card is standard these days. And up to a year and a few months for copyright registrations to be returned. Minimum. Everything is going as it's supposed to; do not kvetch; do not fret; do not worry.
We used to get our copyright registrations back pretty fast before 9/ll. But, as with many government aeries in D.C., everything went straight up in the air, was Kansas twistered, and came down in a snowstorm of epic proportions. We've had copyright reg paperwork in their hands for eight/nine months now; and it's only starting to triculate with molasses slowness.
Take heart. You'll see your new paperwork before we see ours, Bunky. They're taking the fresh stuff first, and catching up with poor schlubs like us in the stray open minutes.
The bill for all this assistance is in the mail.
Yr. pal, H(arlan). R. Block
MOVIE CRITICS:
To address the idea of movie critics in general, I think they can provide a very valuable role in the artistic and analytical process. Like all fields of endeavor, there's a big difference between the good critics and the bad ones. And only a few of themcan really be called good.
Giving a movie a star rating or a thumbs up/thumbs down is pretty useless. But a critic can contribute to the artistic process. Not that he is an artist, hemost assuredly is not, but he can still help analyze and promote good art.
I'm currently enjoying theheck out of the series of little, I dunno what you call the, chapbooks maybe, from the British Film Institute each on various films. I thought the one about Night of the Hunter was very good and I am currently enjoying the one about Last Year in Marienbad.
I don't know if Roeper is a dumb guy - I know he's a dumb critic. I'm notjust basing that on Planet of the Apes but on having watched him for the last couple years. I don't know why Ebert brought him on. Maybe to represent the "common man" but it's not like Ebert doesn't like a lot of schlock too. It's just Roeper's taste (thumbs up /thumbs down), it's the asinine comments he makes.
He trashed Lord of the Rings because it's "too long." He ripped Dancer in the Dark because it "got on his nerves" and had an unrealistic plot. Ebert's print review directly repudiated this saying that it was fine and well to like or not like Dancer in the Dark but criticizing the realism of the plot was not valid. The film made a stylistic choice of extreme melodrama over realism. Roeper likewise tore apart Training Day because it "wasn't realistic." Idiot idiot idiot.
Yes, Rob, Roeper praised Planet of the Apes. He actually started off his reviewby proudly proclaiming it's "better than the original."
I already had a low opinion of him at that point. When he had the nerve to say that, I think I fainted.
Chris,
You're kidding...you're KIDDING...right? RIGHT?
You're not. You're NOT?
Yeah, don't gimme that shit. You're kidding.
Roeper actually gave the PLANET OF THE APES remake a thumb skyward?
I have an interview with Kubrick sitting on my desk even as we post. A quote from him: "Explaining works of art contributes nothing but a superficial 'cultural' value which has no value except for critics and teachers who have to earn a living."
Roeper must be getting minimum wage.
I dismiss critics nowadays but some more outright and justifiably than others. Roeper's thumb is a reminder why.
Chris L, doesn't mean that Roeper is a dumb guy. Ebert must trust him for valid reasons. The fatboy knows his movie people.
Cindy,
Go see Panic Room. I think it's terrible, the worst movie of the year so far, but some people like it. But I think there are a lot of bad movies still worth seeing.
As for the thumbs up biz, Ebert thumbs up is encouraging. A Roeper thumbs up is always a warning sign. This is the man who raved over the brilliance of the remake of Planet of the Apes and told Ebert he would wind up feeling embarassed to have given it a thums down.
Brian, yes and yes.
To Frank Church, re Parecon. For the benefit of Webderlanders, "Parecon" is an economic system proposed by Michael Albert of _Z_ magazine. I haven't look at it in enough detail to make much of an opinion about it, I'm afraid.
I am wondering about Frank's question, as to whether I think it's a "valid" system or not. By what do you mean "valid?" Do I think it could work if implemented? Do I think it's even _likely_ to be implemented? Do I see an, a nervous animal is a dangerous animal.
I really hope this is clearing everything up for you. I mean, all that Lon Chaney and Maria Ouspenskaya crap really muddies the waters. "Yooooouu cann-not essscape the cooo-urse!" I mean, come _on_. Total bull.
Actually, "werewolf" and "wolfman" are misnomers when you think about it. True wolves are dirty little bastards, actually. Sure, they're not carrion eaters, but I'm convinced that they would be, if they didn't enjoy hounding animals to death so much.
Also, they tend to bugger anything that moves ... okay, so maybe that has its merits sometimes, but really now! Once I saw a wolf trying to mount a _squirrel_--and then, after he decided he was through, he _ate_ the poor little bastard!
That's one reason I don't like the name "werewolf"; another's that we don't change into _wolves_ per se--the closest I can come to describing what we Callen become is, well, some sort of bestial humanity; stuck between man and animal and not really either of them. The third reason I hate any "wolf" comparisons is that wolves tend to travel in packs (kind of like schoolyard bullies, come to think). Now, I'm not sure if I speak for the rest of the Callen, but myself? I don't want to see anyone else who sprouts fur and grows claws (unless she's both willing and in heat) as long as I live, and I sure as hell don't want _them_ to see _me_."
There; it's over now ... you can come out ...
DAMNIT! Someone stole my tools. Even the chair I made to replace the collapsed chair collapsed! Saturday mornings require Jay to use the PREVIEW button from now on.
Anyone else notice how ridiculous Star Wars character names are becoming? Just another pointless observation to distract you from my poor typing. :)
Ouch. Sorry for the awkward construction. I guess the metaphorocal chair I made this morning fell apart.
Still love that analogy, Rich.
Rick Wynott - Helluva Board, Helluva Tribute. The schmoe who emailed you probably can't program a VCR much less a web page of this design. As Lynn said, it has influenced me and given me joy in the brief time I've have it bookmarked. Have you heard of the Pyxis Corporation? They are a division of Cardinal Health. It's health care=related so jobs won't vanish and they have computer-specialist and support positions around the country. If you're still looking, check them out. They've been great to two friends of mine and I might have joined them except for this tendency of mine to not like math...or science...or sick people.
CINDY - DAH'LINK
I'd enjoy reading your pages if you would like to send them my way. Same email as above, but hotmail.com
An interesting question for folklorists (florists with extra "olk"!)
Driving my fiance to work this morning early in the morning hours we noticed the big full (or just slightly waning) moon still hanging in the sky about 20 degrees over the western horizon. This prompted the question:
According to folklore, do lycanthropes remain in animal form during a full moon even AFTER the break of day, or is the curse broken by dawn?
Of course I don't ask for practical purposes...even though the hairy man with the hangover who crossed in front of us on the Harvey Taylor Bridge this morning looked quite the part.
OK, I can't take it anymore.
Hamster's
Sir Boris (the finest swordsman in the World)and
Sir Morris (not the finest swordsman in the World, but the most enthusiastic)
They actually have a pet hamster called Sir Dorris, and a dog, Sir Horace.
Kerry
THELMA & LOUISE??
Gerbils (that's all my scotch-soaked brain can handle this early on a Saturday AM):
Lucy and Ethel?
Betty and Wilma?
PRUDENCE???
Gudanov and Badanov? Boris and Natasha? Sporty and Scary Spice?
Gertrude and Prudence?
Damnit. More misspellings. Gotta use that other neat feature, "PREVIEW".
I'm a victim of soicumstance! I was framed, I tell ya!
Chuck
Rick,
When I first popped in here, it was to complement your work here, especiall the scalable number of posts I can call up when I come in to the bulletin board. Then, I read your post about that rude individual who came back with the "thanx for nothing" e-mail. What the hell does he know? Does this member of the booboisie run a website? He probably couldn't.
I think you're doing a fine job here, adding features I haven't seen on ANY bulletin board, including and especially the scalability feature. (I like that word scalability. I promise not to overuse it like Zippy the Pinhead) Keep on doing what you're doing, which is usually above the call of duty or whatever calls on the WWW. And what a fine advocate you have in HE. Just remember most of the radom fucks that come onto your website are not like the terrible tempere Mr. Bang.
Oh, and I asked if my company needed any IT people. Unfortunately, they don't. What the hell, it's outside the area you wanted look in, and the pay would probably suck.
I just became an official member of the HERC. Sent in my membership today. Too much cool stuff in there to pass up. Now I need to look into Lynn's site.
Chuck
Yes, bad Todd. The roastfully boastfully Todd, who roasts and boasts until the milquetoasts roast in the post. Whenever I think of Todd, I think of...well, exchanges with Frank which leave me with the distinct impression that the two of them would probably get along quite well at a table together, in between tearing ideological strips off each other.
Yes, bad Todd. Bad bad bad bad Todd.
He is bad.
Heh.
Jon
Bermanator: My father, who taught high school English from 1960-1995, and who did both public and high school at a rural one-room school house, gets on my ass whenever I opine that kids are different. His comments frost me off, but they also act as a necessary rejoinder.
His contention (and he still coaches grade nines and tens in football now) is that kids aren't any different at all, except that they may be _less_ prone to violence in total as a kneejerk reaction or as a social norm, at least within the groups he deals with -- namely, kids from a small town of about 14,000. And many of the stories he's told -- about life in a rural area in the late 1930s and early 1940s, about what was tolerated as schoolyard behaviour, all in particulars and not in the generals that I'm giving here because it's late and my brain's fused -- at the very least give me pause before thinking that kids are 'worse.' We've got some high-profile bullying trials and investigations going on in Canada right now. I do think, as someone who was tormented by peers for being fat in public school, that this focus indicates a paying-of-attention to things that weren't paid attention to much before except by 'outsider' writers -- like Orwell, like Ellison -- in their accounts and stories of 'acceptable (unacceptable) school behaviour.'
The murders in Germany really suck.
Jon
First off, P.A. something about your post gave me chills. The real world is invading the school. Unfortunately, (and no, I know it's not that simple) that puts some of us (literally) in the line of fire.
But you aren't reaching them all?
I beg to differ.
I worked at the hub of a plethora of kids this year, working as the cashier. Offering comments, jokes and compliments to a cross-section of kidkind. There are a lot of them out there. It's hard know what they are thinking. But ya know something? (and I won't pull the spotlight on my own anecdote to prove the point) you affect ALL OF THEM...
Trust me on this one. It may not surface. (Damn, I was only a cashier. I was AMAZED at the casual coments I got later on about the simple things I proffered. It kinda floored me.) You may not see it happen in your presence. But you are as a stone cast in a clear pond.
You CAN be seen. You'd be amazed. _I_ was.
Keep up the fight. Someone is winning. Believe me.
Heather
Todd, get a life.
I have a pretty good idea what some of the people here I am dealing with are about. I grew up with a supportive father who influenced me greatly and who taught me a few things about picking my battles. I also have two brothers--intelligent folk, actually. (And come to think of it, despite a strong sibling rivalry with my older brother, he NEVER called me a bitch. Go figure.) I live in the real world. With more shades than just black and white. There are a few men (and women) there. Some of them do things I can't explain and try not to worry about. Life is too short.
If you feel the need to nitpick, to fill your roast/boast quota, be my guest. I've seen you do it enough with others and I have no qualm with you or anyone else here, but I WILL speak my mind from time to time. A mind? Yes, I have one. A little different from yours, Thank Christ, but hey, that's what makes the world go round.
So flip me the bird, turn me into some caricatured female figure you find it easier to snot at, or pass my posts at your leisure. It's a free country. If all you look for in exchanges with people are things to get mad as a hatter about, enjoy yourself. I'm RIGHT here.
I've dealt with programmers. There are a number of them here. My observations have a basis in reality. If that's a problem for you, tough, ignore me. It's an easy to do.
Cast me as a villain? Take a hike. Woman as bitch? Give me a fucking break. Contrary opinion? Live with it. Keep the gender out of it.
Oh my, this IS fun!
TODD!
Excellent!
I am grateful for the time that you spend on my behalf.
Your wife will probably be delighted with your efforts. Good women who marry manly men don't begrudge them their masculine tendencies but admire them.
Cindy
Aside from the exciting gerbil acquisition/naming (Heather: no initials for my girls-- they get GOOD names), I have to say... I'm pretty freaked out by the school shooting in Germany. 17 people killed and 14 of them were teachers. All I could think was, that could be me, in some horror nightmare. I wish I could be eloquent about this, but all I can think of is...are kids really this fucking unhappy in school? Have things changed so much since I was a kid? Sure, I fantasized about my high school going up in flames, but to DO it, and on such a scale?
I try to be a teacher who gives a damn, who loves the individuals more than the rules, more than the books, more than the status quo. And I think I'm succeeding a lot of the time... tonight I chaperoned Battle of the Bands. A kid, whose brother I had last year, told me his brother had come to the show that night specifically to see me because I was his favorite teacher ever, K-12. (I wound up missing the kid; he was going to sing but he left early because they wouldn't let him say THE EFF WORD).
I felt faint... I reached that weird, tough kid. I felt so honored, like a success, but... I'm babbling...all that doesn't matter if one kid is alienated and miserable and crazy enough to put a handgun in my face and pull the trigger.
And I'm not going to kid myself. I don't reach them all.
Damn.
Bermanator
HEATHER!!!!!!!
In AWE?
I am SO grateful for that comment! You are so kind. Are you finished with it? The form that you got it in was so bad I apologize. Faisal's suggestion makes all the difference in the world. I sent you the improved one from a final draft translation this evening. I think it will help your reading experience.
Again, your words encourage me and give me such confidence!
Now where did you want me to send your payment for the comment?
:)
Cindy
Cindiana,
Got it, thanks. I promise a complete reading and honest comments. Give me a few days, though. Though I am officially unemployed for the first time since 1980, I do have a lot of work ahead of me next week preparing my home for sale later this summer. Yup, as a manly man, I will be swimming in paint and dust and God knows what else (and pissing off the wife everytime she comes home from work to see what mess I've gotten myself into).
But I will get to it, fer sure! Thanks!
-TODD
BERMANATOR AND TODD!
The script is probably there as we speak! Ain't technology grand?
I can't thank you enough for helping out.
I'm beholden. MOST beholden.
Y'all are fine as frog hair.
:)
Cindy
Zoe...Hope school is going well. Books in the mail. Feels GOOOOD, don't it? Congratulations on your prized piece. It doesn't matter how many entries there were--you won a prize! Enjoy it! And let the gerbil be a Zoe. Zoe Berman. What's the middle name? Will we get yet ANOTHER P.A.-like initial here?
Peter..Why the English department? You work at a school or something? Congratulations, as well.
I would be glad to see either piece from either or you. Or anything else (Peter.)
Chris...You go, girl! Good for you to make a decision. Get some sun while you are out there. Hit the beach and be a manly man. Maybe you'll meet a babe or two.
Cindy...(My screenplay experience notwithstanding but...) I am in awe. As I mentioned in private post, your piece seems to convey a real, emotion-filled, solidly written story with nifty little characters. Not a word out of place. The pace is wonderful. I LOVE the catwoman. (Hmm..you should do a comic of this for KICK. Anybody listening?) Good luck at the contest.
Congratulations to you others for your current triumphs and heroics. Seems the full moon is having a positive effect this week. This is Good.
Rick...Need help, or a buttinsky ear, let me know, as always.
Heather Anne
Heather, I rarely address any of your notes, as I really am able to get past the first few lines. But I read your last post, and I must ask: Are you purposely acting like an asshole to rile up the intelligent people here? Do you really think these people are 'programming' nerds (how many of you guys and gals are programmers besides Rick? Me, I don't program, I boss around programmers...or used to) who have no better things to do in life than crack jokes.
A) Jokes are fun. Cracking jokes brings joy to the world, unless your jokes suck.
B) The people here are fun.
C) You are becoming a fucking stick in the mud.
I'm sure your post, in which you refuse admit your complicity in placing the match to gasoline by asking for comments on that piece of shit writing exercise, will elicit quite the number of pissed of responses.
In advance....I agree with them all. You know why? Because these programming losers who crack jokes at other's expenses are far better people than you are proving to be.
I used to think you were an eccentric rambler. I now think you are a bit of a bitch.
Sorry.
-TODD
Peter, Cindy, Zoe (if you want): E-mail above. Send stuff.
Gerbils: I had to get girl gerbils. They didn't have a boy one in black. So I have a black girl and a grey girl. Boy, the woman behind the counter thought I was nuts-- she actually tried to talk me out of getting them. I guess it's not too often that full grown adults come in asking for gerbils. Hmmm. Wonder what her fevered imaginings conjured (Richard Gere? Gezundheit.)
Your suggestions are all quite compelling. I honestly cannot decide. I'm a Libra, I'm indecisive by nature. I think I might go with Death and Taxes. That cracked me up...The Gerbils of Inevitability.
Bermanator
Dearest Harlan
Stay out of it. I don't waste time pouting at people with nothing better to do but point fingers and snicker. I made my point; more than I usually bother to do with this crowd, as I'm not as anal as some of you. Heh.
If you missed the point of my original post, so be it. Don't feed me my thoughts on this matter. Your points posed in prose may be true--as you sometimes tend to do when pressing a point of debate (with the essence of the original exchange getting lost in the reply)--but they are beside the point. I thanked the specific parties for their specific replies. I spoke my mind to the willy nillies who needed a joke break from their programming.
Dig?
I could have pulled up this person for your perusal and comments, as I've done with a few others in the past, while I was surfing. (Per Jay's comments, I should have shown you a piece of prose that DIDN'T comment on said person being PUBLISHED; as many of you chewed a little too long on THAT point versus a civil discussion the kid's prose.) I came across this chap last year. I read a number of his pieces (which is more than I can say for some of you.) I went back to visit the site recently and saw what I showed you, casually asking for pros and cons on his abilities. Even Hemingway preferred specific feedback from Gertrude Stein when he showed her a piece. Saying "Bad boy" or "Good boy" served him little purpose. (And I personally can't imagine her making jokes as his expense as many of you lazy ones did.) And that's the extent of my involvement with this Moonlighter chap.
I am here to attempt intelligent exchange. If that's too tall an order for any of you, the Cartoon Channel is over there, by your Pee Wee Herman doll.
Heather
Cindiana, I would enjoy taking a look at your screenplay. Is this the one that uses my The Sister Who Came From The Basement story? Regardless, still interested!
-TODD
OKAY, Y'ALL!
BERN,
FINDER
ZOE
LYNN
HEATHER
DTS
BARNEY
AND
DENNIS,
I HAVE SENT YOU ALL THE SCREENPLAY. If it doesn't come through holler at me please. In the meantime anybody else want to read it- I'd be most beholden.
I am going to submit it to a film festival and this is the best way for me to see what needs to be tweaked or pruned.
Faisal, you are THE MAN! I took your advice and managed to get it from Final Draft into a text format. It still off centers a little bit of the dialogue.. I'm sure that's part of the design so people will be compelled to buy the product.
Meantime you saved me on this.. thanks so much. AND if you change your mind and want to read it I WOULD BE EVEN MORE IN YOUR DEBT.
Shameless ain't I?
:)
You are all the best people.
Rick, I would be happy to kick in for the keg so to speak. I can send a little for the cause. What you do is such a boon to ALL OF US. I get more of a kick out of your website than I do out of most of the movies that come through my little "burg" as my mother calls it as in " I can't grasp how you can stand to LIVE in this little burg."
Anyway you have only to email me with your address and I'll send you what I can.
Thanks for all you do and piss on that bastard that was rude to you. I think we should do a villiagers from Frankenstein number on him.
All of y'all's friend,
Cindy
Well. Lots of congratulations have to wing their way out here.
ZOË AND PETER AT THE CLAIR DE LUNE: Good on you both. Keep writing, keep winning, keep it up.
(An aside: Peter, I've seen you express yourself here and elsewhere for some time, and I have to say that while proud, I am wholly unsurprised. [Sorry, Zoë; while a great addition to the board here, I just haven't read you as much--I look forward to, however ...])
CHRIS: Hey--I know you've been pursuing film school for some time. Good to see you're going ahead with it--an maybe the Fluffya Webderlanders can give you a sendoff ...
PETER: The "No writing on webpages" is a rule of mine, as well. If they pay me, fine. If not, it has to be something extraordinary (the only ones I can think of are a review of a friend's musical group, which they now use in their onstage intros and in their press releases, and an article on an antiwar site in reply to an article by one of my best friends--oddly, this is the article that got my byline on the same page as Chomsky and other luminaries).
NAME THE GERBILS: Sex and Violence. Bogie and Bacall. Hornet and Kato. Sacco and Vanzetti. Aubrey and Maturin. Tits and Ass. Shatner and Toupee. Channon and Yelena. Buck and Bubbles. Edmund and Tenzing. Kavalier and Clay. Bailey and Olivaw. Passion and Warfare. War and Peace. Stanley and Livingstone. Leopold and Loeb. Simon and Garfunkel. Simon and Kirby. Simon and Schuster. Simon and Simon. (I got a million of 'em ...)
RICK: I don't like Zoë's idea of a mass flame at all, but I do believe that the person who e-mailed you has forfeited any rights to polite conversation--or, for that matter, ANY conversation. Brush him off like a grabby ex (and delight in the Ellisonian emasculation to follow).
JUSTIN: Regarding the "Show, don't Tell"--gimme some time; I'll have a good explanation for you later tonight.
DAVID: *I* wish that Fantagraphics would resume its POGO collections!
BRIAN: You need me, I've got your back. I'm free on weekends for bullybashing.
RICK: I almost forgot--though you may be loath to join The Great Satan, the IRS is ALWAYS hungry for IT pros and other techies, and the starting pay is actually not bad.
ALEX K.: No matter what Harlan says, there is no finer aim for Art--ANY Art--than between the legs of one's desire.
(and I recommend MIND FIELDS)
Quick correction, the HE books were the ESSENTIAL, and SLIPPAGE, not SHATTERDAY...
--Zoë Rose
Hey all-
I know I'm still new-ish here, but thought you'd appreciate how greatful I am to a certain someone I met here, who recently sent me a treasure-chest of literature. This afternoon there appeared a box on my doorstep, taking me a minute to lug into the house because of its weight. Digging inside I found books, books, boks! Harlan Ellison ("Essential Ellison" and "Shatterday"), Dan Simmons (too many to list), Alice Blanchard, Lucius Shepard, Nevada Barr, Stephen King, Carol O'Connell, and a couple others.
Not even out of college and I've got a little library started! If it hadn't been for this board and the quick and astute responses (friendly... and not, too, sometimes, but can be just as fun), I would never have stuck around and met such a great bunch.
Thanks to one and all for making my "stay" here superb. Y'all rock.
-Dotted,
-Zoë Rose
Xanadu~ ::LOL:: Or from Good Omens, The Other Four Bikers of the Apocalypse: Grievious Bodily Harm, Cruelty to Animals, Really Cool People, and Things Not Working Properly Even After You've Given Them A Good Thumping (secretly called No Alcohol Lager).
L.
If you have no objections, Peter - I'd love to see how you've progressed since the days of shaz... ^Email above^
More suggestions for the Two Gerbils of the Apocalypse:
Fire and Brimstone
Crash and Burn
Fear and Loathing (in Binghamton)
Mashed, Potatoes
Odd and Even
Burp and Fart
Which thoughts led me to - The Four Horsemen of the Moderately Bad Day: Hunger, Discomfort, Unconsciousness and Slap Fight.
They just posted the winners list for that competition, and I placed (where I placed, I don't know, because they haven't actually said which winner got which place) in the short story comp, 2000+ words with my story O'RYAN'S BELT.
P.A.Berman: If you still want to read it, let me know your email addy and I'll shoot it off to you.
Goodness I'm tired.
---Peter
Alex-
Okay, how about "Sleepless Nights..." for non-fiction and "Mind Fields" for fiction? Come to think of it, "Sleepless Nights..." was the first HE book I gave to my son.
Holmes and Watson
Rick:
Christ almighty, as one who puts up with a endless parade of those who both feel the need to be able to tell me precisely how it is I'm screwing up at either managing the rink or calling a game, and yet never seem to be able to be available to take a turn at doing it themselves, you have my sympathies. A pity I don't have a means to get to the individual. Still have a few skills learned on the wrong side of the tracks and during my purgatory within the CAF that would come in mighty handy...
Michael: Drew Mel's attention to your post; our favorites for illness are ginger ale, dry toast, and peppermint ice cream. Don't know why, but it really seems to settle the stomach. Hope Alia's both feeling better soonest, and her new job is working out.
Mr. Ellison: Mel had asked if you'd had any other books or items for sale other than those listed. We take silence as inferring the word No. Not a problem, but should something of interest come up, please let us know.
Well, out of here. Taking the kids to their grandparents, then out on the town for a much needed night out. Don't wait up, kiddies; we be goin' long on this one.
Hehehehehehehehe, and a nice little leer...
A lecherous Bag-O-Scott
Zoe: <-- see the sideways dots? Congratulations on your contest win -- you rock, baby.
-- DTS
Alia has a nasty stomach bug today. I'm spending my day running Sprite and crackers to the bedroom, and wasting time on the Internet. Thus:
Alex, as regards your story...THAT'S why I suggested Harlan's work to Justin!!!
You see, Justin? It works! Ask Alex! Ask Harlan!
Wups, gotta go get the Maalox....
Michael
Castor and Pollux
Another few gerbil monikers, sparked by Mr. Ellison's mention of Gog and Magog:
Hugin and Munin
Phobos and Deimos
Oberon and Miranda
Rick, sorry to read of your hassles with a netnerd, but unsurprised. I've been doing this stuff even longer than thou, I'd wager. There are nations of idiots who assume that visiting a webpage is like visiting a store, and they demand instant service. Sounds like Harlan's up for stomping the guy, which might be fun. Can we all watch? I can always use the entertainment.
To those who suggested "The Essential Ellison" for my old college buddy's son: Um, thanks, but I think I'd like to get him something less terrifying. I'm remembering how daunting I found the original "Dangerous Visions" when I was 16. It was a lot shorter than "The Essential Ellison," and I read compulsively. It still made me gulp. Think I'll go with "Dreams with Sharp Teeth" (Susan, the order will be coming in the mail).
Which brings back a fond memory of the late sixties. I used to get girls hooked on Harlan's writing and then I'd get him to sign copies at conventions. Finally, at one convention, Harlan looked at the latest stack and said, "Krislov, you gotta quit using my stuff to get laid."
--alex
Rick,
May I say right off the bat, thank you. I know it isn't said often enough, but I want to thank you for the YEARS of dedication you've put into this website. You've done a great job and everybody here is (or damn well SHOULD BE) grateful for the blood, sweat, toil, and tears you've shed to make this a neighborhood community that spans the planet.
Secondly, the ass who made those comments isn't worth a second thought. You are better than that cretin and I hope that once the anger in you subsides you'll feel a little pity for that jerk and a great deal of pity for those around him.
Best,
Shane
Todd,
A) You're a mensch as well, despite being a dirty Yankees fan.
B) That's "First Place White Sox," thankyouverymuch.
Regards,
Joseph
Rick, please, Mother of God, PLEASE get Harlan in touch with that rat bastard and his 'quick witted' snottiness. People like that need to have their asses reamed by the nearest telephone pole (a real splintery one)!
Rick is cool, gang! I had a lost-mail matter to ask Harlan and Susan about a month ago, and I asked Rick if he could bring it up in any future conversations. He didn't have to.....he's not a manager of some internet company here, he's just a guy who gives us a fun place to converse. But he did, and got me an answer right away. He's a mensch, but I'm sure everyone here would agree (except for Heather, but I haven't found too many rat's asses that care in regard to that matter).
Rick, please get Mad Dog Harlan on that prick! These people need to know what asses they make of themselves in the world....it might actually prevent more stupidity in the future and make the world a better place.
P.S. If you need donations to keep the site running until you are employed again, please don't be afraid to ask! I became officially unemployed today, but being that I come from a large company I received a separation package that would allow me to sit on my ass until February 2003 if I wanted to....but I don't, so I will be happy to chip in! The only other board I have ever gone to on the web is the new Webderland board, but all I do there is mock Joseph Finn about his White Sox and his first place Webderland Team (while I yearn to stay above the Mendoza Line and pray my pitching keeps me alive).
-TODD
The mention of Bill Moyers' history with Lyndon Johnson prompts me to mention that I'm about halfway through the third volume of Robert Caro's incredible biography. Titled _Master of the Senate_, it covers the years that Lyndon Johnson served in the Senate-- and how he managed to change decades-ossified procedure, upend the seniority system, stack committees for his own purposes, and managed to get the Civil Rights Act of 1957 passed. Utterly flabbergasting portrait of a political genius in his element, and alongside of Caro's own _The Power Broker_ essential reading for any intelligent American.
I'll pass this next anecdote along for your personal edification. I've describe the local battle over an Historic District proposal here before. This past Wednesday was a public meeting hosted by the advocates. We, the opponents, spread some flyers around to encourage people to attend. I focused on the more run-down areas of the district, because the people who live there are going to be hardest hit by this-- and I noticed very few of the advocates' posters in those areas.
Anyway, a few days before this public meeting, I wrote a note on a local listserve where I described some of the comments made by the advocates at a local block meeting. I'd taken good notes, and some of their comments were a bit hair-raising. Well, after this public meeting, the main guy behind the HD proposal sidles up to me-- along with two buddies, who surround me in the classic schoolyard beating-up configuration. They nod at each other, agree to get their stories straight, and begin haranguing me about what an evil person I am. "We're gonna watch you," they say, "you be careful what you write, because we're watching you." Straight out of _The Big Knife_.
I took it pretty calmly, surprisingly enough; the main guy's on the zoning board, and one of his thugs is my block captain, so they could give me some grief if they really wanted to. I gave an account of what happened with some others on our side within a few moments after it happened.
But I am astounded that the advocates could revert so quickly to schoolyard bullies. And there's a certain amount of pride I have in the fact that they did this to _me_, probably because it's no secret that I've been doing most of the writing against their proposal.
What's actually saddest is this; these guys probably consider themselves to be decent liberals who believe in tolerance and diversity. But they're basically thugs, and the more power they get, the more this area will turn into another whites-only enclave.
These days I continue to find myself bereft of the proper amount of time to read, never mind contribute to, the interesting threads (such as the nature of writers and writing) on this board. Just some short items:
My beloved grandmother adored _archy & mehitabel_. Shortly after she married my grandfather (this was in frontier Fairbanks, Alaska in the late 1920s), she tried to read it aloud to him as her parents had once read to each other, but the experiment was a miserable failure. My prudish grand-dad thought mehitabel was a bit of a slattern. And I've never gotten around to that book, I'm sorry to say. But a Marquis quote has become permanently lodged in my brain, to wit:
Publishing a book of poetry in America is like dropping a rose petal off the rim of the Grand Canyon and listening for the echo.
Justin -- The dictum "show, don't tell" is a nearly universal line of teachers of writing to their pupils, and hard to define as it is, nonetheless useful for all that. What it means is: Don't cut corners. Get the details right. Don't say "he felt this," "she thought that," -- show them saying and doing things that intimate to the reader what they're feeling. Learn to describe inanimate objects and landscapes or cityscapes in concrete details that connote states of mind and mood. It's much easier to discuss specific examples than to define this in the abstract....
Somebody mentioned that Fantagrafics is getting back on line with its Krazy Kat series. I wish they'd continue with their complete Jules Feiffer collection!
Some time ago, when Joseph Campbell was the subject of discussion, Bill Moyers was mentioned for the documentary work he did with Campbell and I think Heather asked about Moyers. I was reminded of this last night when I caught up with the tape I made of an hour-long show he did on corporations v. Free Speech a few months back.
Moyers is not a philosopher, folklorist, or theologian, he's a broadcast journalist. I believe he was President Johnson's press secretary, or at least worked in Lyndon's press office, but since then he's done a lot of interesting projects, mostly for public broadcasting. Many are political in content, although three years ago he did a series called "The Genesis Project," in which he got various priests, ministers, rabbis, and literature professors to talk about the first book of the Bible as a literary and cultural artifact. It was surprisingly interesting.
The show I watched the other night talked about how money trumps free speech in this country. The illustrations included how a female conservative Republican state senator was crushed by hog farming coalition once she began to notice that her constituents were suffering from fumes and pollution, and the rivers were getting clogged with algae because of hog farms, how Big Tobacco killed McCain's bill to make cigarettes pay more for the health effects of tobacco, and how the 1996 media bill got lobbied in Congress and smothered as a story in the media so that digital wavelengths belonged to the public and could have been auctioned off for billions were handed over to the networks for free.
Moyers tends to be pretty liberal, but he's also fair and does stories nobody else will do.
SUSAN: I sent the document to the copyright office on 4/4, by certified mail. I haven't rec'd the green return card. I went to my PO today and the computer indicates the package is in DC, but hasn't been accepted or rejected. The postal worker indicated the copyright office could be busy like IRS and you won't get the green card for maybe 2 1/2 months. Does this sound accurate and what is the approximate length of time until the registration is rec'd from the CR office? Thanks for helping me clarify this. Charlie
EBERT ON FILM:
Hey, Rob, can we also wage the occasional internecine war over the merits of Roger Ebert?
I just read his review of 8 1/2 and I think he offers a very valid observation. He hardly came up with the notion but it's an idea that seems to be forgotten by most modern filmmakers and critics:
"The critic Alan Stone, writing in the Boston Review, deplores Fellini's "stylistic tendency to emphasize images over ideas." I celebrate it. A filmmaker who prefers ideas to images will never advance above the second rank because he is fighting the nature of his art. The printed word is ideal for ideas; film is made for images, and images are best when they are free to evoke many associations and are not linked to narrowly defined purposes. "
I like that.
Comments?
Frodo & Sam? Aragorn & Arwen? Suraman & Gandalf? Yin & Yang? God & Goddess? Fish & Fowl? Woodward & Bernstein? Franklin & Eleanor? Soddom & Gommorah? Abraham & Sarah? Bernie & Eve?
Perhaps more later as the mood strikes...
You may want to sit down because I have some news that will shock you this afternoon: my gelatinous simian brain is not adequately processing something. It could be the lack of sleep and the two Jolt colas that currently have me amped up like a Peavey at an Aerosmith concert, but I don't think I'd know what this thing means even in a semi-lucid state. I got a paper back from my English teacher today and she gave me an A on it, and thanked me because it made her laugh. I was pleased with myself, because mostly I just try to make people laugh in the stuff I write for school (Harvard won't be beating down the door any time soon, rest assured). But she went on to say that "the main advice I can give is to work on showing rather than telling--then good use of imagery will become great use of imagery and you will be able to lead your audience where you want it w/out readers feeling led." I'll make an appointment with her to discuss this further, but if someone can help me out here I'd appreciate it. I think I need the difference between showing and telling illustrated for me more clearly, because right now I'm still not sure what precisely to fix. Aren't you "showing" people what you want them to see when you "tell" them what's going on? Me is confoosed. Thanks in advance.
Rick: That's awful. Sorry you have to put up with the joiks like that on accounta your nifty site here. 'Taint right.
Harlan, you amaze me. With all the shit you have to deal with right now, you're still willing to take the time to hunt down a weasel for a buddy. I wouldn't be surprised if the words "too" and "busy" never crossed your lips side by side in that particular order. It's not just that I aspire to amass a Hoplite phalanx of friends like you, it's that I aspire to BE a friend like that myself. Good, solid, manly stuff. Makes me wanna go drinking with some guys and whistle and women and make crude remarks.
*belch*
J
I just had to giggle madly and clap my hands in glee at HE's most recent posting - it must feel great to have Harlan on your side, eh Rick? Even if nothing ever becomes of it, it's like knowing you have a loaded weapon ready to fire - you don't have to actually shoot it to know what the end result would look like.
Could you IMAGINE HE's response to that idiot?
*mad giggles and hand clapping again*
-Still Dotless
-Zoe Rose
I appreciate the Don Marquis discussion. I'd never looked at his work. I'll seek him out. Every now and then you people have your uses.
Re: Harlan's backyard.
I had this image flash in my head as we all cut up his lawn with our cloven hooves: Chris and I will spout off Atheist dogma while doing a rigadoon - leaving the others galled and incensed -and upon drawing borders we divide the yard into two tiny nations to be led to Armageddon by Satan...'gainst the kingdom of God himself. (Stage hands...cue the mad laughter please).
Harlan may get pigeonholed as a numen by neighbors...but das vut 'appenz ven you pud up vis us.
...uh. What a way to wake late in the morning. It's not like I have anything better to do.
RICK SWEETIE BABY DAHLIN':
Nobody fucks with my friends. NObody.
Send me a way to reach The Heir to the Throne of the Kingdom of SnakeShitAnia, and I promise you, old chum, I will either contact him physically and make the point that he is a prime example of the demise of Western Civilization, or reach him by phone/fax to send him into the outer darkness he deserves.
You actually do not have to put up with such crap. Not on my behalf, nor that of the dear Webderlanders. In a world where Jesse Helms retires in January, it is our duty to eradicate hyena droppings such as your avatar.
NOBODY fucks with MY pals.
Gilgamesh J. Ellison
Wyatt & Doc...Cook & Dudley (I know)... Sturm & Drang... Vladamir & Estragon... Jay & Bob... Rosie & Guildy... Vic & Blood... Hope & Crosby... Lennon & McCartney... Elton & Bernie... Threepio & Artoo... Billie & Satchmo... Bruce & Dick... Jekyll & Hyde... Snap & Crunch... Thing 1 & Thing 2... Death & Taxes... Deathroll & Necksnap... Sunshine & Rainbow... Jesus & Judas
Rick - The guy's wife and/or daughter probably demasculated him for his inability to search the web. His attack on you was projecting his shrinking dinkie issues on you. Fuck 'em if they can't find their soul.
What can I say about RELIGION without going off on a rant? Not much. About time those dress-wearing cloistered elitists catch up to this century. Just my humble opinion.
Jay
Uncloaked Lurker- Yeah, I know, but plotting makes me feel better, anyhow. *malicious grin*
--Dotless,
--Zoe Rose
Rick: That man is a total failure as a human being. His rude behavior is beyond the pale. Only an idiot would presume that running this website is your bread and butter; that you are here to serve any and all who query you about things Harlan; that your life permits instant replies to emails from nits who have a casual questions that could be answered with a 15 minute search on the w.w.w. My blood is boiling because (without ever having met you) I know you're decent guy. This boy doesn't deserve to carry your mouse pad. A pox on his house from a pissed Wilder.
R.
Zoe:
Flaming them does look like a good idea at the start, but it can at times cause much more trouble than it's worth. Let it go, the person's not worth it.
I understand anger at someone's childishness, but the correct answer is not to become childish yourself.
Rick~ You could always try the cyber-version of Harlan's "Dear Sir: Someone with severe mental illness is sending emails on your behalf." Preferably with a copy of your response attached.
Little minds, my friend. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this forum. I can honestly say to you that it has changed my life in subtle and powerful ways. I don't think we could ever say thank you enough.
As for the job and the anniversary, I know virtual hugs don't count for much, but if you ever need someone to talk to, you have my number. Sometimes I even shut up long enough to listen to your problems. Just ask Harlan. ;)
Cindy~ I'm savoring your screenplay one page at a time. I finally had to print out a copy to take to lunch with me. I'm not a screen writer, so all I can give you is thumbs-up feedback, but I gots two of 'em and they're way up so far.
mrao,
L.
Michael and Bermanator- Please don't name the gerbils Zoe and Peter! Because when they suddenly start going at it and having babies, I don't want to have to explain to everyone that I'm really not having 16 babies a month, nor that I try my best to refrain from 'fucking like gerbils'. Cute idea, but the scary outcomes are endless...
Rick- You should tell us the e-mail address of this obvious loser - we'll flame him for you. I have no compunctions about doing so either! It was his goddamned mistake!! If there's anything we faraway few can do to help, let us know.. we owe you, Rick, and bigtime. You rock. Period. Nobody should screw with our webmaster.
-The Dot Dot Warrior out for blood (on Rick's behalf)
-Zoë Rose
archy & mehitabel? freddy the rat? warty bliggens the toad? the old soak? i've loved them since childhood, at first reading them as a child would, but starting to see Marquis' satire becoming stronger with age. all the while, I've never lost my enjoyment.
"i climbed upon my boss his desk
to type a flaming ballad
and there i found a heap grotesque
of socks and songs and salad..."
for our fifth anniversary scotty surprised me with a copy of the album "archy & mehitabel, a back alley opera", with carol channing and eddie bracken as the characters. i've got it on just now. has anyone else seen the movie "shinbone alley"?
if you get a chance, find Marquis' poem, "an ode to hollywood", about his short and frustrating stint as a screenwriter.
Rick: You have mine and Scotty's sympathies. If I've not said how much I get a kick from what you've created here, and the fun I have speaking to others of intelligence and creativity, well, it has gotten said now. Thank you, and I hope all works out for you.
I'm off, the man wants to go to lunch.
Love to all, Melissa
Rick,
Here's a big boid to the petty nitwits you ahve to deal with (myself sometimes included).
All,
Harlan's mention of Herriman reminds me to note that Fantagraphics is resuming the anthologizing of the Krazy Kat comics (that was lkeft off by Eclipse a decade ago), in the volume "Krazy and Ignatz: The Komplete Kat Komics 1925 & 1926." Really, really essential. Funny as hell and touching beyond belief. Also has a good amount of analysis and essays on the work. Good stuff.
As for the amazing gerbil brothers, how about Cuff and Link? Hey,a good "Rocky" reference never hurt anyone. Or Jay and Silent Bob. Or Tristan and Isolde.
Regards,
Joseph
MOVIN' TO CALI:
Unless things change drastically (like Loyola Marymount actually gets backtomeAND I decide I want to go there),I'll bemoving to Orange,CA. My understanding is that most L.A. folks don't even consider that to be part of the L.A. area but rather a different world altogether. Hey, what can I say? Not every school accepts old men. I can't be choosy.
I intend to spend quite a bit of time in L.A. even if the "only 20 minutes from L.A." really means I have to spend an hour or more driving into the city. Oh so damn much I want to do out there. I have traveled the country rather extensively on several solo cross-country drives but despite spending a great deal of time in the southwest, I have not yet so much as set foot in the state of California. I had a feeling I'd wind up there one day so I always wanted to leave it unexplored until I make my big move.
GERBIL NAMES:
ROSENCRANTZ and GUILDENSTERN
FEAR and LOATHING
TRISTAN and ISOLDE (they don't what gender they are so it doesn't matter)
Cindy: Not priests so much as cardinals.
To answer your question: "Zero Tolerance" conflicts with church doctrine that states all individuals have the potential to be redeemed, and defrocking priests or turning them over to secular authority would permanently extinguish that potential. In the minds of the cardinals, this should only be _considered_ if the offending party meets the below listed criteria.
Film-writers: I've got a copy of David Mamet's _On Directing Film_ if anyone wants it. It's currently part of my emergency storage space clean-up pile, which means that it's gotta go anyway. As it cost a mighty 99 cents to begin with, you can have it free of charge to the untraceable PO box of your choice. How's that for a non-sales pitch? Respond to the email address above.
archy and mehitabel: Reading about the cat and the cockroach are forever linked with reading James Thurber in my mind, as I encountered both around the same time when I was small. Or at least smallish. If you can find any of those great Thurber collections in your travels, pick them up too.
Cheers,
Jon
FOR THOSE WHO WONDER AT THE REWARDS OF RUNNING THIS SITE:
Here's a little story.
This monday I get an e-mail from a guy who'd had some material posted on my site. He'd recently lost some of his HE collection. The e-mail asked in which story or book Harlan's recounting of his days working for Disney appeared. It referenced the "Don't fuck with the mouse" bit.
I'm pretty busy lately. My job goes away this Tuesday and I don't have another one yet. This month is both the one-year anniversary of my divorce and the time in which the government demands I pay the piper. But I did a bit of research, which sparked my memory that not only is this bit from "THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE" but that essay is available on my website. I shot back (less than an hour later) an e-mail with the URL, then just after another e-mail because I'd forgotten to answer the question and tell him the book source was STALKING THE NIGHTMARE.
Well, unfortunately, this gentleman had sent his query from his wife or daughter's Juno account, and didn't include any other return information. So my response went back to that source, and he never got it. So what did he do? He sent me this last night:
---
Rick Whynot:
The quote that I was asking you about earlier was from "stalking the nightmare."
I should have thought that you'd either know it or that you would at the very least point me in the right direction.
Two of my more intense dislikes are dealing with incompetent wannabes and frustrated bootlickers. You can also add contrived arrogance and childish petulance to my list of distasteful qualities.
Tell me rick, were you breast-fed? Or are you a bottle baby?
Again thanx for giving what you had to offer: nothing...
Sweet dreams babycakes.
----
So if anyone ever wonders, is it cool to run the Ellison website? Well, sometimes. Harlan is a great guy and a good friend and he makes me laugh at least once a week. I've met a lot of great people and I feel like I'm serving the common weal.
But I also get to field a lot of trivial questions, and GOD FORBID I don't pony up an answer. I also get 2 or 3 things a week like the little number above. Sometimes more. I get them purely because in running Harlan Ellison's web page I get in the way of people's misdirected feelings of fury and entitlement.
So if I at times seem pointed or curt, it may be because of nothing more than the number of shitheads I had to work through to get to you. And you have my apologies.
Quote of the Day, from Crossfire: From William Donohue, head of the Catholic League, describing his worries about the punitive policies towards pedophilic priests:
"There's going to be a national policy that all can agree to on the easiest cases. What about the cases where a priest at a Christmas party, straight or gay, has a bit too much to drink and he hits on somebody in the parish? One time..."
Aren't priests suppossed to restrict their drinking to the sacramental wine?
Later on, Tucker Carlson makes the following point about robotics and space travel:
GARVER: Would we have sent -- would Jefferson have sent robots to explore the west. We need to go as a people. We're part of exploring...
CARLSON: Right.
CARVILLE: Well, he couldn't send a robot.
CARLSON: No, but if Lewis and Clark were robotic, it would have been an entirely different trip. You must admit.
Let me add my congrats to the prize-winning team of Zoe Dot Dot and Peter! And if you look at the synchronicity of it all, Captain Bermanator, wouldn't "Zoe" and "Peter" sound great for a pair of gerbils?
Of course, P.A., if you were to get a mated pair, "Michael" and "Alia" are really the only names you need...
Word has come down the pike from the local constabulary that Coffee-boy, a.k.a. "Scumwad," has indeed been arrested. No further details as yet.
BUT, what has really moved me to actually write something here is my renewed amazement at the depth of literary savvy around here. archy and mehitabel. I suppose by now I should not be surprised that Harlan and the rest of you have read something so close to my heart...but I truly thought that this particular jewel was one that I alone remembered! I have been telling people about Don Marquis' wonderful writings for years, and all I ever got for my trouble was a blank stare (yes, from you, too, Justin m'boy). I first discovered the cat & cockroach when I was but a wee tad, in a book owned by my great-uncle George, a book he was kind enough to give me, one which has become a prized possession. Over the many intervening years I have tracked down and devoured every word I could find by Don Marquis. It was well worth it. What a delight to find that there are others who love it as well as I! What a swell bunch of eggheads you all are!
And to this day, whenever -I- get writer's block, I just imagine archy hurling himself head-first into the typewriter keys. If he could work that hard, so can I.
Best to all,
Michael
toujours gay, archy, toujours gay
XANADU,
Are you referring to the Priest debacle?
I don't understand their reluctance to implement a one strike you're out policy. What the fuck?
They're lucky I am not the Pope. I would have the HEADS of every swinging son of a bitch that KNEW about it and covered it up or (WORSE)passed the trash. It's pretty bad when the church won't commit to protecting the children. I would think that step one would be to drive the rats into the sea.
I love the Catholic Church and this breaks my heart.
Even if I'm a Lutheran.
Cindy
BERMANATOR,
DEEEEEEELIGHTED!
I was secretly hoping you would read it.
Thanks for the honor you do me.
Cindy
Well, I momentarily attempted to revert back to my real name, but it seems that 'Little Washu' and 'Benjamin' have become interchangeable now. Not that I mind, but never let the 'Little' fool you. Real life...big person.
For anyone interested: Finally saw METROPOLIS last night (the anime, not the Fritz Lang vehicle) and I was...impressed, I guess. The animation and character designs were indeed spectacular, but I kept getting the feeling as if I've seen this all before...that is, the gigantic future city, the robot trying to discover what it means to be human, the evil government, everything (and everyone) going berserk at the end, etc. If anyone else here is a veteran of anime, you'll know what I mean. The production is FANTASTIC, but ultimately you're left with a feeling of, "And?"
MELODY: I've been tempted time and again to watch the adaptation of A BOY AND HIS DOG, but have decided to crack down and read the novella FIRST. No, I haven't read A BOY AND HIS DOG yet. I've read probably the most obscure Ellison stories out there, and I haven't read A BOY AND HIS DOG. I know I'm gonna get bashed for this.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I somehow missed the news yesterday and the world I give to my children saddens me beyond measure...
Notorious. Serial. Predatory.
...
Parents of Webderland – hold your kids close – protect them. No one else will.
Alex K.~ Funny, my Aunt has a cat named Ignatz as well. Sounds like you've got good taste. :)
P.A.B.~ I've tried looking at the name-the-gerbil issue from the point of view your cat might take. Howzabout "Lunch" and "Dinner"?
Justin~ How many times have we told you? No gunplay in the house, take it outside if you're gonna make a mess. Sheesh...
-Andrew
Good morning, all!
Thanks again for all the positive support and warnings - unlike Peter I'm not experienced in submitting things places, so although I like to think I'm prepared for rejections, I'm sure I'll come crying to you all sometime. Indeed, the last time I wrote for a contest was in third grade, I think - and I won third place for a Halloween story.
As far as sharing, well.. I can't really go and post it now, Peter! Actually, I have a webpage elsewhere and I might post it there once it's cleaned up a bit - although, I'd love if any comments could come to my e-mail, so I won't be afraid to show my virtual face hereabouts. *heh* I'll be posting it soon and will be sure to let y'all know.
Justin - Could you at least take the slaughter over a ways so I don't get splattered? :)
Harlan - Where? All I know is I'm slated for missile school in the military. If that's not a place to write freely and imaginatively, I don't know where is [insert sarcasm here]. We'll see. I do know I'll be camping in your backyard.. invasion of the dots? Well, you never know.
I'm sure I've forgotten someone, but will post again later. Must return to sleep (aaah, got to love these class-free Fridays).
Dot-a-licious-ly
Zoë Rose
Zoe and Peter: Congratulations! If you don't want that money clogging up your lives, though, send the cheques to me and I'll reimburse you with the so-much-more-permanent Grade 6 Remembrance Day Poetry Prize plaque that I have stashed around here someplace. Although I guess you'd half to saw it in half...
PAB: Brute and Glob were characters in Joe Simon and Jack Kirby's short-lived Sandman series from the 1970s. I don't know whether or not B&G appeared when Roy Thomas revived the yellow-and-red Sandman in Wonder Woman and Infinity Inc. There's a Sandman page out there somewhere that goes through the origins of the various characters that Gaiman plays with but didn't create in the series (Scott Free, Prez, Dr. Destiny, Element Girl, others) as well as those he did.
Cheers,
Jon
Mr. Berman: Over the last four years I have set up a series of rules for myself about my writing, one of which is "no posting on webpages," unless it is an honest to goodness sale (another rule is "write for myself and not a market -- worry about market later). I set this rule up for two reasons. The first is simply that posting a story online smacks too much of vanity press to me, and I'm too confident in my ability to go that route. The second is a little more complicated. Posting a story online, in a forum, on a webpage, or anywhere else is technically considered "published." Unless you've got a name behind you (and I don't) it is really difficult to get something re-printed. I do not want a story rejected for things that I can control, like format, grammar, clunky sentences, or the fact that I'm sending in what is technically a "reprint."
However, I am willing to share my writing, stories, or poems, with people who ask. Since you asked, I will send. I assume you want to read my winning entry. Since I don't know what that is yet, I ask for your patience.
This goes for anybody on the board, too. If you want to read what I wrote, ya just have to ask. I hope you understand my reluctance to share publicly, though.
---Peter
Congrats to Zoe and Peter. Winning rules. I'm sure you both richly deserved it. Maybe you'd post your stories somewhere that we could all read them? IF we promise not to be envious, intellectual assholes?
Cindy: if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to read your script too. Please? Willya send it to me too?
To all who offered gerbilious names: an embarrassment of riches. I'm still pondering them. Maybe I'll have to look into their little rodent faces to truly know what names would fit. I was also thinking of Brute and Glob, from Sandman. You know, the little nightmares who esacped? Gaiman's always good for names.
Bermanator
For those of you who actually have money...Amazon.com carries aRCHY and mEHITABEL, ARCHYOLOGY: THE LONG LOST TALES OF aRCHY and mEHITABEL, and ARCHYOLOGY II : (THE FINAL DIG) THE LONG LOST TALES OF aRCHY and mEHITABEL, at prices that won't break the bank, unless of course it's mine. But I'll pick 'em up soon. It looks like great stuff.
I could have sworn there was something else I'm supposed to be doing right now. Something to do with school, mabe. I wonder what it could possibly be. I seem to have forgotten.
Oh that's right. Commiting suicide so I don't have to go to class tomorrow: So, uh, Harlan. Up late, huh? What happened? I thought people your age were legally required to go to bed after MATLOCK. Tee hee hee. (Aim for the head, please, sir. Open casket funerals give me the creeps.)
Too snarky to live,
too clever to die,
J
I interrupt this all-nighter to congratulate Zoe and Peter on their achievements! Huzzah! I salute you!
And now, before the books regain consciousness, I must resume hitting them until they can be hit no more. Sleep is fo' pussies.
J
GOOD GRIEF INDEED!
Does this mean that not only do Susan and I have to put up with Rob and Lynn, but Zoe Dot Dot and Chris L. in our backyard, as well!!?!!
My life bids fair to metamorphose into a hideous rigadoon.
(By the way, Chris, I still have a WHIZ COMICS to return.)
Malthusianly thine, yr. pal, Harlan
ALEX:
Yes, THE LIVES AND TIMES OF aRCHY & mEHITABEL by Don Marquis (best edition: the "new edition" with an introduction by E.B. White, illustrated throughout by George "Krazy Kat" Herriman, Doubleday, 1950) is one of the nonpareil wonders of American literature--toujours gai, toujours gai--but it is only in the past twenty-five or thirty years that it has become "neglected."
I envy all of you who will be entering the lower-case world of the cockroach/reincarnated vers libre poet and the raunchy concupisant cat for the first time! Ah, such laughs and smiles will soon be thine.
But. The quotation I served up is not from archy & mehitabel, Alex, it is from one of newspaperman Don Marquis's books of essays . . . I just cannot remember which, at 1 in the morning.
Congrats Zoe Dot Dot and Peter. That's how I started, too. Won the National Scholastic short story prize while attending Champion Junior High School (no longer standing) in Painesville, Ohio, in 1948 or '49. Without ever having read it, or indeed even knowing of its existence, apparently I won with a story that very closely paralleled Karel Capek's famous "R.U.R."
I never found that out till ten years later.
You're on your way. The question, always, is WHERE?
Yr. pal, Harlan
P.A. BERMAN:
Two sets of gerbil monickers assert themselves in my sleepless brain.
GOG and MAGOG.
QUIXOTE and SANCHO PANZA.
he
Thanks everyone. I'm not sure if it's completely sunk in yet, and I still don't know which category, or which place, I've won. I find that out tomorrow.
As for rejection . . . As I write this, I'm staring at an ever growing pile of rejection slips pinned to my wall. So I'm way ahead of you on that one. In fact, I had just received my latest (and most impersonal to date) slip on Tuesday. I just have to keep plugging away. I'm in this for the long haul. Always have been.
This and I'm turning twenty-four on Saturday. Seems to me that this has actually turned out to be a good week.
Zoë: (I will forever remember that alt-0235 now) Congratulations on your award as well. Sorry I didn't say so earlier, but I was between classes.
---Peter (who is actually in "Cali")
CONGRATS TO ZOE AND PETER! Great going. Here's hoping you have many more triumphs along the way.
-- Lorin
ZOE!!!!! GIRL CHILD!!! Kickin' ASS and takin' NAMES. You're a firecracker. High FIVE!
:)
Chris!!!!! I think that's just grand! You go to film school and tell me what they're teaching you.. a bit of vicarious living is good for those who live in the middle of nowhere.
Good for YOU!
Peter! OOOOOOOOOOO an awards CEREMONY!!!!! That is SO FUN!!!!! Don't start freaking about what you're going to wear.. you have PLENTY of time. You WON! You WON!
I'm delighted on your behalf.
And NOW I am SIGNING off, so y'all can quit your murmuring about how I should be shutting my yap and going back to the FINAL DRAFT ROCK PILE to work on my glitch.
So I say to you all, Good NIGHT, Adieu!! TOMORROW I WILL LAY BEFORE YOU MY SOUL!
Uhhh lie before you my soul? Noooo that doesn't sound right at all.
It's late and I'm gettin' punchy.
:)
Cindy
OH!
AND TO ALL OF Y'ALL WHO AGREED TO READ MY SCRIPT UNDER DURESS...
OR WHO WERE WORN DOWN BY MY PLEADING AND ENDLESS SUPPLICATION--
I beg your pardon as well and ask for one more day to fix the FORMAT PROBLEM.
Picture the kid in the 70s movie Oliver Twist " Playze suh, kin oye 'ave some mooowa?"
Only in MY case it's " Kin oye 'ave one mooowa dah-eee?"
You KNOW I know I owe you all.
God love yer little hearts,
Cindy
XANADU
I owe you most of all.
Have a sweet night.
:)
Yer pal,
Cindy
FINDER!
WELCOME ABOARD!
TO ALL OF Y'ALL KIND ENOUGH TO ASK TO READ MY SCRIPT--
I set about to send you the Final Draft Version via RTF or however I could get it done. I took one last glance around and found a few more glitches which WILL BE IRONED OUT BY TOMORROW EVENING!!!!!!!!
I promise you-- I will provide you all with engaging stuff to curl your toes and make you wonder BY THIS TIME TOMORROW NIGHT.
That means you will have something lovely and creepy to peruse for the weekend.
I am terribly sorry for the delay, but wasn't it Dorothy Parker who said she couldn't write five words without editing seven?
I am no Dorothy Parker, who is? BUT I do tamper and tinker and tweak when it's clearly necessary. This is some strange formatting problem that mixes my action with my dialogue in spots. Very distracting and annoying but fixable.
Can y'all bear with me please? I promise you won't be disappointed.
:)
Ah SWANNIE,br>
Cindy
Bermanator: How could I forget - Strunk and White? Piss and Vinegar? Rock and Roll? Dumb and Dumber?
It's late, I'm tired - have a good night folks.
Zoë and Peter: Whoo-hoo! Good job and good luck! Let's hope this is the start of something great for both.
Chris L. : Best of luck to you, sir. Some among us need to dream the impossible dream for all of us.
To Melissa and Bag O' Scott - thank you for the lovely vignettes of parenthood - I find myself smiling in recognition at every mention of your little ones and their whims and wants. Please continue.
To those who have dealt with recent medical and/or family traumas - I hope all involved are doing well. With special nods to Michael and Alia, Lynn, Faisal and anyone else I may be forgetting.
With a quick knock on wood to avoid jinxing things, perhaps these are signs 2002 will turn out better than '01.
Happy thoughts to all.
Zoe,
Congratulations, kid! Feels great, huh? I just loves it when I win once in a while. By the way, as long as you're talking to the weather gods, who are dumping on you right now, could you PLEASE ask them where the hell they were this winter? We're so dry out here in Colorado that we've got a major brushfire situation already. Not TOO far from my old home town, Evergreen. (okay, it's not that close, but still...) Just wait until summer comes. Maybe the parsimonious bastards could give us a little rain, maybe?
Peter,
Congrats to you too, buddy. Looks like you've been hard at work. I hope this is but a harbinger of things to come.
To you both,
Of course, if you WANT to really be writers, that will mean a lot of hard work and rejection. I hope you both can cope with rejection because that is part of the landscape. Of course when it works....
Faisal,
And, don't forget the REALLY STRANGE PICTURE SHOW (or was that "incredibly strange"?) also did Ed Wood. A very insightful look into the man's work and life. He had no talent at all, in my opinion, but he had such a PASSION for filmmaking. If his talent had matched his passion, he would have been dangerous. Extremely dangerous, especially for the fifties.
It is unfortunate that you got no recognition for the act of saving a child. But then, you weren't thinking about that at the moment it happened. And, one kid got to grow up because of you. Hip, hip, HURRAH, is what I say. By the way, do you know the child? Is he doing alright these days? Sometimes one can lose touch.
Bermanator,
How about Gaspara and Dactyl? Pluto and Charon? Frick and Frack? Olson and Johnson? Stanley and Ollie?
Chuck
Chris L- good job on chasing the dream! GOod luck, and you're NEVER too old, I'd say. Where in Cali ya moving? I'm moving there myself, soon... about two hours north of LA.
--Zoë Rose
Wow- thanks, all. Your guys' comments made me hop around almost as much as the Composition person who posted the sign with my name in big bold letters (in a hallway no one traverses, but oh well) did. *sniff*
Peter - High five!
And, as for a sample... heh. After rereading it, I've decided it needs not only a major overhaul in editing of the basics (repeated words, grammar, etc) but a few fixer-uppers. But.. maybe sometime soon when I've worked on it a bit more.
Wow - you guys are now responsible for this big goofy grin plastered on my face.
--Zoë Rose
Congratulationss to Zoe and Peter on your success. I hope it's the start of something big for both of you.
I can't match that news but I did just get into film school. Again. I went in the mid-90's but had to drop out when my father died. I decided that even though I am "too old" to be doing this sort of crazy thing I would pick up my old dream and try to finish what I started. What can I say? I just love me them movin' picshurs.
In September, I'll actually be living in California. As Charlie Brown would say, "Good grief!"
I watched "A Boy and His Dog" for the first time today. I enjoyed the movie and am looking forward to reading the story (novelette?). I would like to say to Mr. Ellison that I found your post regarding the stupidity of thinking Quilla to be in love amusing to say the least. My fiance (who works third shift and was dosing through out the movie) was puzzled by the same thought. No doubt if he had been fully awake while we watched, the thought would not have crossed his mind. Anyway, I am curious as to your view of the film. Were you disappointed, or did it turn out as you pictured? As I have not read the story, I am not sure how close the movie came, but I would like to know how you feel. I am personally not a Don Johnson fan and was distracted by his acting, so my opinion is rather biased. This is my first visit to this site and I have enjoyed reading the comments. I would like to say that the chair analogy in regards to the Moonlighter story made me laugh. I can't remember who wrote it, but good one!!
Zoe dot-dot! CONGRATULATIONS! A kind word from our patron author AND a winning work in the same day??? Could it be more than simple luck? ;)
Peter! Way to go buddy!
Good days all around then!
Leave it to Harlan to pull a perfect quotation out of a unjustly neglected classic. Harlan, have you ever considered putting together a reader's bibliography? That is, a short tome of recommended books, with reasons why everyone should know these authors? Okay, okay, you've got enough projects underway. Still, you've made so many recommendations that have enriched my library over the years...
For those who want to sample archy and mehitabel before seeking out a genyoowine book, here's a URL to a page that links to some samples: http://208.56.153.48/donmarquis/ It also sports a wonderful George Herriman picture. Bet I don't have to identify _him_ around here, right? Hey, Ignatz, izzat a brick?
I ever tell you guys our cat's name? Ignatz?
Anyway.
Zoe, congratulations on the award. Bet it's the first of many.
--alex
Dammit, forgot (a sure sign of impending old age):
Zoe: My husband's and my heartiest congrats, and best wishes on a good start to a great career.
Melissa (still glad she doesn't watch hockey)
P.A.:
Might I suggest Dog and Cat? Irrelevant, inane; the perfect combination for a lunatic grin when someone asks why, and you explain:
"I bought them during my 'Better Living Through Consumption of Various Chemicals Week'."
Melissa (happy she's not watching hockey)
Congrats to both Zoe and Peter.
Bill
I once had two mealworms named Sturm (und) Drang. These names seem equally appropriate for hamsters; you're welcome to them, as the mealworms, along with the beetles the eventually became, are long gone.
Peter~ Congrats to you too! Y'know, I had a sneaking suspicion something was in the air this morning, when I got my word-of-the-day from Dictionary.com.
propitious \pruh-PISH-uhs\, adjective:
1. Presenting favorable circumstances or conditions.
2. Favorably inclined; gracious; benevolent.
L.
Actually, I have news similar to Zoë's. I seem to have won an award from my school's english dept for my writing. Only, I do not as yet know the category(ies) I won in, or where I placed. I only know that I won . . . something. So it may be fiction, metrical verse, free verse, critical essay, humor, or some mixture thereof. I'll post more as I find out. All I know for sure is that I was told to keep next Thursday free for the award ceremony.
---Peter
Bermanator~ How about Scylla & Charybdis? Castor & Pollux? Eng & Chang? Elvis & Jessie Garon?
Hmm, gonna have to think on that one.
L.
Zoë~ Way to go! I bet cold hard cash is the *best* feedback you can get! Congratulations and are you gonna share?
ell dot
I always thought Goober and Snot would be great names for a pair of dogs - but it'd work for gerbils too. Not very clever, I admit, but I snicker when I say it, so...
Still Dotless
--Zoe Rose
A literary cockroach and his fractious feline friend? Am I looking for one in particular? archy and mehitabel, archyology, or archyology II? I know, I know. All three.
Who needs a pillow? I'll just use the books I have no place else to put.
L.
Slayer of nightstands, toppler of tomes.
Some good news!
Woohoo! Speaking of amateur writing, I recently found out that I won a little bitty cash prize from the English Dept. at my school in podunk Duluth for a "short story" contest! Never mind that I'm fairly sure there were probably only two or three other entries... and never mind that I didn't strictly adhere to the rules (they said 5000 words or more, and I gave'm 52 pages)... wheeee! I can pay for groceries AND utilities this month! And _on time_ too!
Anyhow - just thought I'd share that with y'all. It doesn't take much to make me hop around the Composition Department here like an idiot. Besides, it kept me warm - it isn't fair that it is STILL SNOWING. It's April 25th, weather-god. Time to warm into spring, dontcha think! *grumble*
Your dotless wonder for the day,
--Zoe (dot dot) Rose
Because I'm not afraid to show you all how ridiculous I am...
MOOD-LIGHTENER: Tomorrow I am going to get two gerbils. Why? Because I have a tank and a wheel sitting around looking forlorn, as such things will when no rodents are present; my incredibly vicious white mouse died unexpectedly last week.
My cats miss their Pay-Per-View.
They will both be boy gerbils. I'm looking for extraordinarily clever suggestions for names, a set of gerbil names that will make me grin idiotically whenever I say them. My best attempt came up with Frodo and Samwise. Shame on me.
Help!
Thanks,
Bermanator
HARLAN APPEARS FOR A MOMENT:
LYNN: The unattributed quotation you attributed to me is, in fact, me quoting the famous journalist Don Marquis, creator of the legenday "archy and mehitabel" (intentional lower-case); if you've never read Marquis's work, rush to your online sources for used books and get the COLLECTED archy and mehitabel.
HEATHER: Stop this juvenile pouting. Pay attention to Zoe dot-dot. She nails it. And the underlying awfulness of this whole matter is that it elevates to the level of "something you should not spend a fart's worth of time on," that which is essentially amateur. It is part of the arrogance of the generation used to running its every vagrant thought and study-hall doodle up onto the web. A place where ALL opinion--learned or lackluster or loony--has the same weight. Where ALL writing--in the minds of amateurs--is equal. That's why they think the KICK lawsuit is detrimental to their free-lunch universe: they think this kid's joyless prose is great, because he's publishing on his own...hell, ALL writers should do that...and not try to stifle the internet! This kid writes at the adolescent level of a writers' conference beginner. The kind of barely-readable stuff that would be kicked out of him in the first week of a Clarion Workshop season. But because he has the web, he can proffer this immature bilge and get naifs--like you--to pay attention. Writing is too serious, and too hard, a craft for dabblers and parvenus to distract us from that which IS worthy. But you got honest answers, Heather, so stop "mewling and puking" as Shakespeare put it.
You've wasted more than enough of everybody's time with this kid. Let him go his way. If he keeps at it and learns what voice is his, sans the arrogance of vanity publishing and roping in the gullible, he MAY one day be a writer. If not, good riddance. There are already enough poseurs in the world selling their verse on street corners, filling the precious pages of little literary magazines for no recompense, self- or vanity-publishing books of minimal ability or interest. We don't need any more lazyass scribblers who think they can go it without some training. That's like having amateur engine repairmen in garages. They don't ACTUALLY know how to do it, but they've got this cosmic sense of universal literary excellence. Holistic psychointelligence sprinkled with unicorn dust. The whole freakin' lot of 'em ain't worth a page of Donald Westlake or Gerald Kersh. Asking for opinions on upstarts like this, and then going ooooo, poor baby, is they pissing on you . . . well, Heather, you are being the worst kind of bleeding heart bad news intellectual. Writing well takes stern stuff and a clear head. This kid, at this stage, has neither. Survival of the cleverest.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Easy on the Hooptedoodle
by Elmore Leonard
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/books/16LEON.html
"These are rules I've picked up along the way to help me remain invisible when I'm writing a book, to help me show rather than tell what's taking place in the story. If you have a facility for language and imagery and the sound of your voice pleases you, invisibility is not what you are after, and you can skip the rules. Still, you might look them over."
Enjoy,
L.
I had a plan. To take a moment to stop by a favorite establishment, grab a cuppa, see who's around, catch up on who's stopped by recently.
I was going to thank Lynn for her posting of this morning. A good reminder. After that, I was going to acknowledge that I agree with some of the sentiments expressed by Roger Gould. Tell Rick I hoped the reference I sent to him would pan out, and that there's no need to thank me; small repayment for what you've done for me.
Then, make some time to reply to Zoë on the topic of "source material," how a film (picking on "Field of Dreams," as an example) can be connected to and, at the same time, so different from the previously published work it is based on ("Shoeless Joe"); what's kept, what's discarded, what's added and/or altered, the "A Film By..." debate and such. From there, make time to mention something Harlan wrote in the afterword to "The Prowler In the City At the Edge of the World":
"I was furious at the limitations of the printed page, the line-for-line rigidity of QWERTYUIOP. I wanted to break out, and the best I could do was use typographical tricks, which are in the final analysis little more than tricks. There must be some way a writer can write a book that has all the visual and sensory impact of a movie!"
...which may be why he paints such vivid portraits when he lectures, performs public readings, records audio books, etc., so WE can hear the rhythms and tones and inflections running through HIS head. Toss in a mention of Harlan the teacher, who can illustrate how to do it and also how not to do it, as in his foreword to "The Power of the Nail":
"To be absolutely upfront about it, neither Chip (Delany) nor I feel this story is successful....At least, perhaps it'll be a learning experience for all of us."
Well... okay, then... I think I'll just grab a seat over there in the corner, take my coffee with me and work on the crossword puzzle. Quietly. 'Scuse me.
I've been involved with enough good workshops to know that the biggest critical fallacy made by too many receivers of criticism (and I take Heather as a proxy to messer Moonlighter) is the personalization of the work---a projected ad-hominem attack wherein _any_ criticism directed at the work is _automatically_ an attack on the author, his ability, his personal grooming, his pets, and his mother.
I may have been flippant in my response to his writing (my criticism was of his redundant phrases by comparing them to a scene from Holy Grail) but most _everyone_ else offered not only constructive, but very astute criticisms of the writing. These were the kinds of critical analyses that would have made a successful writing workshop.
---Peter
http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/lyttony.htm
Ah, respite from the thankless task of having to explain to folks who can, at an instant's glance, ascertain with absolute certainty when one of their hockey heroes slashes or trips an opponent from the vantage of a couch in front of a 25 inch TV screen, yet somehow become blind when their own child does the same deed to an opponent not more than ten feet in front of the parent's face in the reality of an arena.
Okay, so I don't get thanks. I did get paid, and well enough to have my baby hitting on me again. As it's been said, money can't buy you love; but it sure can rent it awhile.
A brief pause to duck a swing of Mel's hand...
No comment, re Moonlighting. I get little enough time to read as it stands. Hell, I've got a pile of reading I've been wanting to get to; copies of Borges' "Nonfictions", Doris Lessing's "Briefing For a Descent into Hell", Richard Cramer's biography of Joe Dimaggio, "Word Virus" by Burroughs, a command performance of The Bag-O-Scott players interpreting "The Gingerbread Man" to my youngest daughter...I've no time for somebody who can't do it right. With apologies to all, but I'll sit out the minor spat with Heather over her poor taste in writers, and her even worse choice of insulting the good little elves who habitate the environs of the glorious Webderland, turning out that delicious cheese, particleboard coffee tables, rhinestone studded demin jackets and clog sandals so desired by folks recovering from serious bouts of failure to maintain a satndard of discriminating taste...There'll be no edam for you, Miss Heather!
A small request, guys? Let 'er up when she's had enough?
Now, if all will excuse, I've the opportunity to spend some time with the peoples who populate my life. Y'all are fun folks, mind, but tonight my beloved Canadiens are playing the Bruins, and the little ones and I have the task of cheering them to victory.
Look guys, I root for the Jays. Sportswise, the Habs being in the playoffs is probably the zenith in my year.
Tonight: One Show Only! "The Gingerbread Man"! Starring Pee Wee Herman as the Gingerbread Man, Mae West as the Old Woman, James Mason as the Farmer, and a star studded cast as the various animals! All voices performed by the Bag-O-Scott players...
Just to clarify (and apparently my writing skills aren't what I thought they were as I re-read my post): My sarcasm of the jealousy thing didn't quite make it in the post. I should've been a bit more over the top. Trust me, I'm not jealous of Moonlighter. I've read his work and there's no reason to be jealous of him. Even if his book somehow someway exceeds all of our expectations and is picked by Oprah and sells like hotcakes and stays on the bestseller lists for years and is optioned to be made into a movie and wins awards, I will not be jealous. Of this, I am definitely serious.
(I apologize to those for misunderstanding me as I really wasn't all that clear in my previous post unless I'm misunderstanding you and the understanding of the misunderstandings was misunderstood of which I would apologize profusely for misunderstanding the original understanding of misunderstandings being misunderstood and now my head hurts)
And, I think that is the last thing I say on Moonlighter.
"Everywhere I go I’m asked if the universities stifle writers. My opinion is that they don’t stifle enough of them." - Flannery O’Connor
HEATHER:
Bad writing, especially egregiously bad writing such as the examples from Moonlighter's work we have seen here, invites abuse purely on its own merit. Such abuse does not require any sort of failing or jealousy on the part of the critiquer, nor does it imply an animus towards the writer or the presenter of the writing. Rather, people who love the written word feel an obligation to discourage bad writing whenever they see it.
Harlan will confirm this. Anyone who is serious about the craft will confirm this. It is a natural tendency which says absolutely nothing about the person except that they love GOOD writing.
I will admit that people went a little too far in this, took a little too much glee in the endeavor. And you are right to defend Moonlighter, to express your own opinion and explain more clearly what you wanted. But let's look at how you conducted this defense. Let's see what you had to say about the people that disagreed with you.
- You claim that they, unlike you, cannot see writing as a joyful endeavor and instead operate from fear and envy.
- You state, with a good deal of sarcasm I might add, that they don't think but instead engage in an reflex response of scorn and derision directed at the person instead of the work.
- You conclude you have little to learn from them because they have given up on their own achievements (even including a suicide metaphor) and instead like to moan with each other in despair.
- You attribute their opinion to a desire to kick and bring down someone who is getting "one up on" them. You say this is their worldview.
- You imply that they do nothing worthwhile with their energy and time and instead spend it all making clever insulting jokes.
- You say that they don't think they are capable of this man's acheivement.
- You state that they are jealous of this man because he is actually DOING something, while instead they do nothing but sit around criticizing each other.
- You claim you got no specific advice or opinion (I saw plenty) but instead nothing but "I HATE THIS!"
- You poo-poo their honest attempts to suggest writers to look at.
What a miserable, mean-spirited, despicable, reprehensible, ill-advised, ill-conceived, and ill-executed collection of statements to make about a whole bunch of people! And how righteous you must feel for making them! What a difference you yourself have made in the world with your trenchant observations of their character! How delightful, how positive, to call someone an "asshole" for taking the time out to suggest some good writers to you!
My point? I will use all caps here to make sure it stands out: IT IS INCUMBENT ON YOU WHEN YOU DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE TO POINT OUT SPECIFICALLY HOW THEY ARE WRONG, NOT TO BURY THEM IN A SHITSTORM OF MISGUESSED MOTIVATIONS.
And besides - how wrong, how terribly wrong, you are! The folks here are not intellectual effetes cynically clawing at that they cannot themselves produce. They are not envious and bitter failures who peck at their betters or anyone who dares to strive. They are writers and teachers and programmers and journalists and workers in all facets of society and life. They are successes. I have seen them share their triumphs and defeats, and I have seen their companions here congratulate them in the one and commiserate with them in the other.
These are good people. Some are kind souls. Some are champions of various good causes. Some are even heroes.
And I am tired, Heather, of you waltzing in here like a doe-eyed orphan child and declaring that these people, my guests and my friends, are petty and mean. You are unequivocally worse than any of them in the relentless insult and innuendo you direct at anyone who dares disagree with you. Your shabby treatment of such people not only ranges from the merely disrespectful to the outright inexcusable, it also makes people reticent to express their opinion for fear of being slapped with one of your damning labels.
That's an awful thing. No one should feel afraid to speak because they are going to be needled and tormented by you. No one should be insulted and belittled because they said what they thought, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WERE ASKED.
If you really think the people here are as horrible as you say, I invite you to either swallow your disgust or find a new forum with a crowd more to your liking. Because what you are doing is misguided and wrong. It makes me so sick to my stomach I can't write anymore.
Hmm. _Bone_ and _Cerebus_ argue against a wholesale declaration that all self-published works are tripe. Then again, they're comics, and they had to establish a monthly readership in the marketplace to keep them going. I'll be damned if I can come up with a success in self-published novels that isn't simply a commercial success (_The Celestine Prophecy_ started out that way, and hoo boy, man the bilge pumps). Hurrah for professionals, definitely -- but I'm sure any of you can come up with cautionary tales about rejected manuscripts that would seem to suggest that marketplace controls are going to stop some very good writers, and not just the Moonlighters of the world, from invading the marketplace.
Jon
Heather,
It's a rain day for me. Walking an aluminum plank in pouring rain is never a good idea and since the bay window went in yesterday and the decking material delivery has been postponed I have the day off. I'm sitting here at my workstation and I can't figure out if the play I'm working on needs to deal with Clara's [one of Mark Twain's daughters] homosexuality or if we can skip that and just concentrate on trivial things like Twain's problems with race, politics, American imperialism, his own art and the death of his loved ones. Rather than make that decision I have decided to deal with you. Lucky lucky you.
I take pleasure in writing. My own as well as the writing of others. When I see a sentence like "It's a brand of air I never thought I'd find." my ability to indulge that pleasure is somewhat diminished.
Despite your petulence you will learn more and more quickly by concentrating on people with some sort of track record for being able to put out interesting and notable writing. I am belaboring this point because you are taking fairness and openmindedness to an extreme that I think is ridiculous. An open mind ought not be a dumpster. Everybody on this board has found this persons writing to be sub-standard except you. We have cited examples that addressed bad grammar, bad stylistic thinking and bad prose. At your request.
I also think you are wrong about the competetive nature of writing. I think Hemingway was close to nailing it when he characterized writing as beating dead men at their own game. At the very least, on a personal level you should be competing with the last thing that you wrote.
Using your critical faculties to come to the conclusion one persons writing is bad, really really bad, I mean to say just awful, is not a function of envy. This is not to say I'm above envy. I envy the guy who got to hold Janet Jackson's bosoms for that Rolling Stone cover. I envy people who were born rich. I envy the ability of a Jack Vance to lay down a certain kind of sentence or a Francisco de Goya y Lucientes to paint a certain type of picture or capture a certain quality of light. But trust me on this, envy is not the force that urges me on when I tell you that continuing to sing this clowns praises is the equivalent of pouring mule piss into the open eye.
As for your misguided notion that I have in somewhichway kicked "Moonlighting" in the shins [although a certain scene from Walter Tevis' "The Hustler" is what really comes to mind] I would deny this. I did not post where he posts and to the best of my knowledge he does not post here. You asked for my opinion on this board and that is exactly where I responded. The fact that my comments were negative and were received with such umbrage says to me that this is something you really didn't want to hear. Like some teen-age girl asking her friends what they think of some guy she has already made up her mind about and then having to cope with her friends ALL telling her she could do better. Too bad.
As to your spurious concern that this may alienate you or Moonlighting to me, well, you are correct in your second assumption that I already know plenty of people. With 6 billion people on this orb it's a risk I am willing, even eager to take. As to my existential despair, well one of my favorite pages in literature is the last page from the essay "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Camus. You should check it out. I'm just not all that despondant. Eeyore is a role model for fools and losers.
There is a middle section of your post here that gets rather muddled but I will attempt to address it anyway.
Jokes? No Heather I was, and am serious. Furthermore my opinion was solicited and given freely. Buy what you like.
Regarding Moonlighting's flaws - They may be legion but his public flaw is his prose style. As far as his [in your mind] commendable trait that he is doing something, my continued opinion is that his time might be better spent doing just about anything else.
So finally we come to your closing three paragraphs.
I mention Harlan for no reason other than my own pleasure. I spoke of Harlan in the sense of arguing from the lesser to the greater. I have a lot more on my mind and my plate than either your opinion of me or Moonlighting's ultimate success or failure as a writer. Scroll back a few years and things may become clearer.
but most suprising of all;
"Barney, my friend"
Ah you whipsaw me with your own web of words. Which is it to be? Shall I be your friend or an envious asshole? Could I be neither? Aristotelean logic says yes! I choose door number three.
- Barney
RICH: No need to be jealous. This gentleman really seems to be going the e-book route. His posts have all the tell-tale signs, not the least of which is the notation that his books can be ORDERED via the bookstores he mentioned. The other sign being that he's talked to his "publisher" (not editor) and that his book is apparently going from editing to the printer to distribution in what seems like very little time. Traditional publishing, even small houses, don't generally work on that schedule. Lastly, of course, he hasn't MENTIONED the name of his publisher, something most traditionally-published authors are pretty quick to do! I COULD be wrong, of course, but that's my guess.
Look, I've got no truck with self-publishing or print-on-demand, except that when it allows people to fool themselves into thinking they're getting published. REALLY published. For better or worse (sometimes worse), the publishing industry has a filtering mechanism. Vanity and POD presses, for the most part, do not.
I've seen it time and time again. A writer will come to me with a book they're about to publish through one of the big e-book publishers. Invariably they say, "Can you just do a quick proofread? That's ALL it needs." And INVARIABLY the book is a complete mess. Not just the surface stuff--typos, syntax and grammatical errors, organizational difficulties--but the big stuff as well--characterization, scene and sequel, dialogue, pacing, rhythm, theme (what theme?)--all of it needs attention. LOTS of attention.
Most times they don't want to hear it (though I tell them, anyway). Because a lot of people are quick-fix-self-gratification junkies. What's important to them is having a book in their hands. Even if it's a book with amateurish cover art and content that seems like it was randomly generated by only a NEAR-infinite number of monkeys.
As to this fellow Moonlighter's fiction...well, like Melissa, I resisted checking out his site for a long time. Part of the reason is that I make a chunk of my living critiquing writers. For PAY. So, doing it for free, especially for someone who hasn't asked me to, didn't have much appeal. The other part was that, given other people's criticisms, it didn't seem like something I had to rush out to read.
But I did take a QUICK peek today, and my impressions are just like everyone else's. No, this isn't the worst writing I've ever read, but it's sloppy, trite, and overwrought. Right away I was confronted with a misplaced comma (first sentence!), a misused apostrophe (possessive 'its' written as 'it's' - SEVERAL times), passive language, adverb and adjective-overload, the use of "weasel" words ("The tire landed JUST at his feet" (I'm paraphrasing; I don't want to look it up again)), sentences like "The car approached at a high rate of speed," which is a classic example of overwriting (Hey, how about "The car SPED toward him"?) and on and on.
HEATHER: Like many who have posted, I'm not quite sure what you were hoping for here. Kudos to the guy for likely paying someone to publish his work? Nah. For just going through the process of writing in the first place? Well, yay for him! Seriously. Even at my harshest as a critic, I don't see it as my job to disabuse people of their dreams. However, I don't see it as my job to inflate their opinions of themselves (something this guy really seems to be perfectly able to do on his own), either. People gave you their honest feedback of this work. Maybe they treated it lightly, but that's their prerogative. I didn't see jealousy as much as I saw dismissiveness, and every one of us has the right to dismiss an artistic (term used loosely) endeavor that doesn't, in our opinion, have much merit. Publishing is a tough business. It only makes it tougher on the rest of us if we're expected to pull a collective "Emperor's New Clothes" and pretend that this guy isn't butt-naked.
His being out there and getting his work in print does not equal his being an artist of any quality. And I don't think I'd want to live in the world where it did.
Over and out,
Lorin O.
Finally, I managed to get over to read what this chap Moonlighter has managed to spread forth as an attempt at the great American(?) novel. It's not fun having any number of small or large obligations, on top of what ever little sins or pleasures I'd like to engage in during a day, and it often leaves me little time to keep up with you all.
I have to state that I am a reader, not a writer by both trade and choice. That will, to some degree, limit the range of criticism I might make in regards to any debate of literary talent. Well, the chap seems to have bought wholesale into the gothic, heavy with King and Poe-like adjectives; his prose seems a bit work-a-day, laboured, as if he was trying to force the words onto the page with a small fear that they somehow wouldn't hold to the paper. Further thought leaves me to think that this is an immature voice, and I might even venture one that knows it has talent, but isn't sure of it yet.
Even then, my thoughts on Moonlighter are just opinion, with little more worth than the cost of the electricity it will take to spread my bundle of sentences out onto the web.
Heather, and all others who either agree or disagree about Moonlighter's prose are in the same boat. I don't read any overwhelming anger in anyone's comments; just the opinions of others who themselves are trying to work at being a writer. To me, and pardon the analogy, the writer is a person toiling in a field which always seems to have a good harvest being guaranteed to only a scant few fortunates, while the vast majority toil on, often never to be able to pull a meal from the ground. Talent and literary skill aren't prerequistes; luck of climate and circumstance favour the writer as often as their skill.
I know that Moonlighter's seeming success has a few of the good folks here perhaps a bit chagrined, but that's natural, Heather. They work the field too, and I must say I find it a delight to read David, or Jay, or Brian, or Faisal or you with your scattershot prose (in a humble reader's opinion, each of you display ample skill in your own right). But perhaps you're not looking at this quite right. When I see their comments regarding Moon's writing, I get a sense that they are less taking apart Moonlighting's work as a task of character assassination, more as criticism of their own work, seeing in Moon much of the mistakes they themselves have made in the past, or might be making in the present. At least that's my impression, please feel free to correct me.
As for other Webderlander's adverse comments, Heather, Scotty and I have a little saying which I'll wager sits in each of their minds: "De gustibus non est disputandum" (Tastes cannot be argued). There are going to be tons of times when I'm not going to like what, say, Chuck thinks of Kafka, or whether Barney likes "The Three Stooges". I will like them for their obviously thoughtful and engaging opinions, however.
Ooops, gotta go. I've a three year old who's woken up cranky from a nap, demanding juice in that small insolence that fatigue creates, making her somehow more endearing. Have a wonderful day, all.
Love to all, Melissa
Heather,
Yes. I admit it. I'm jealous of Moonlighter. I'm jealous that, based on the stuff that was excerpted, he found someone to publish him. I've had two stories published in very small magazines (actually, one I wouldn't even count as a magazine) and considering how hard it is to get into any magazine, when I see what Moonlighter is capable of, yes, I get jealous.
My half-assed "lambasting" of this Moonlighter was done in a mock-serious tone as it was apparent that everyone (and I do mean everyone) that commented on Moonlighter's work did so in a much more serious and compassionate manner than I would've expected coming from this group (and I believe that was after your second attempt at asking us what we thought of this guy). I believe I was the only one that did not offer constructive criticism to this guy because it was apparent that everyone (and I mean everyone) had already done that.
Bottom line: The guy ain't a writer. Whether published or not, he ain't a writer. And it does gall me when people, when anyone, shouts to the world, "Look at me!" and it turns out there's really nothing to look at.
To beat that chair analogy all the way to the ground (and to second and third and fourth what was previously said): If you bring the chair you made to a bunch of chair makers, don't be surprised when they look at the chair and ask, "Fine, but where's the seat? And the legs? And the back? And the armrests? 'Cause that don't look like no chair I've ever seen."
Sorry, that unattributed quote is Harlan's.
L.
Heather~
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you."
I think the same thing goes for truth, sometimes. Tell someone what they want to hear, they'll love you. Tell them the truth, and they'll hate you. Calling a spade a spade does not, in any way, lessen the accomplishments of said spade. And by asking for opinions, don't expect to get anything less than what you ask for.
All: I highly suggest Damon Knight's CREATING SHORT FICTION. He talks about the four stages of a writer (briefly): 1) Narcissistic 2) Trivial 3) Overcoming Technical Issues and 4) Professional. It speaks to me as much about the growth of a person as it does about the growth of a writer.
L.
Heather: Yes, your friend the writer is an amateur. Anyone who's not a professional is an amateur, including me. There is a vast difference between being an amateur, and writing in an amateurish manner. Also, it's arrogantly amateurish to brag about one's publication and post an excerpt before one has even proofed one's manuscript. That's actually sort of rude.
I'm not sure why you're lashing out at the people on this board. What did you expect? Do *you* really think his writing is GOOD? Because, I'm sorry, it's not. In fact, it's aggressive in its badness.
I have to agree with Barney: if you want to learn about how to write horror, read good horror writers. Imitation is the best way to pick up on style and effective techniques. Do you want to talk about who good horror novelists are and have us discuss their styles? That I would be willing to do. Arguing about your Moonlighter friend is just barking up the wrong tree. All you're going to learn from that guy is to get a good editor.
Bermanator
Heather,
I think most of the folks on the board put in time to review Moonlighter's work and took the time to respond. Yeah, we made light of a few things based on the idea that he was "published" which I maintain - regardless of vanity or sponsored printing - establishes a higher standard. I know, I've said that a hundred times, but it is KEY here.
He says on the 22nd: "Shivers will be available for order online in probably...... mid August. You will be able to order it through Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com, Books-A-Million, etc.... Any of the big chain bookstores should be able to get it. Should you have any trouble let me know and I can give you the ISBN to simplify the process of finding it."
I'd say he's beyond vanity press, or he's got a LOT of $$$$ to spare.
If, as he says, "'Shivers' will be running through the veins of readers everywhere before you know it !" then a bunch of avid readers, writers and consumers of mass media have even more reason to be critical.
That space on the bookshelf could have gone to Loftus, or Berman, or you, or me, or even Ellison. I'd be resentful of any self-proclaimed author who proudly displays work like the sample we reviewed.
I also think he's full of donkey-squirts. But that's just my personal opinion.
So it is no longer a question of "Look at this kid's writing. Let's make him better." If he really is going to be published, he can expect MUCH MUCH more of this kind of criticism once someone plunks down their buckage on his work.
I appreciate you championing and wanting to nurture this guy, but perhaps the money he's spending on immortalizing his stillbirth would be better spent on a few writing classes and some choice books to read.
Heather - Don't you think you're getting a bit worked up over nothing? Seriously... quoting from your first mention (I think, I only went back 200 messages) of Moonlighter:
"Go dig him up and tell me what you think of his writing."
Well, folks did and you got lots of responses. Quite a few folks told you what they thought of his writing, in no uncertain terms. YOU ASKED. Don't get all uppity because people gave you responses you didn't like; after all, it seems like you've been here for a long time, so you should KNOW the type of response you'll get when you ask for a critique of writing. It's gonna be harsh, no matter what. Not due to envy of some kid slapping down a thou to be able to say his writing got published, but because folks on here appreciate a good writer and the art of putting a good story together. Only harsh critics and honest opinions can make a writer better. Encouragement, too, of course, but most of all critiques. I hardly think anyone here is envious or jealous of Moonlighter.
I liked the analogy someone made about the wooden chair. I think we've all got our opinions on the guy (ranging from your persistence to give him a thumbs up for his stick-to-itiveness to Professor Tinglebum's review). Call names, rant and rave, but seriously - everyone's told you what you wanted to know in various ways. Seems to me it's time to move on?
Just my opinion, of course.
--Zoe Rose
Finder: To quote J. Michael Straczynski (whose last name I've probably just mangled), who was himself quoting Goethe, "Be bold, and powerful forces will come to your aid." Although I'd guess the original was in German...and I'd guess in this case the powerful force was yourself.
Cheers, Jon
I feel joyful about my ability to write. It's a brand of air I never thought I'd find. I'm not afraid to learn from anyone, great or small. It's not about competition. It's not about envy. Do you understand what that's about?
Probably not.
You guys amaze me.
Well, not really. Some of your (and I said SOME of you, not all) response patterns are pretty standard. You've got a nice set of filters, too, when it comes to interpreting what you THINK was asked. And killing the messenger, not the message. (You know who you are. Or maybe you don't. Maybe that's the problem. It's such an auto-reflex, you don't even notice it. Such busy little beavers you are. So much to scorn, so little time.)
The one thing I DO realize is I don't envy any one of you. And I don't think much more can be learned from you. Unless, I just want to give up and cut my proverbial wrists, like it appears SOME of you have done. Gawd, yer afraid of some shitkicking kid who's simply put some of his OWN money into promoting himself--I DIDN'T SAY any COMPANY believed in him. All that COMPANY is eager to do is take his money--and managed to acquire a following with his shitty little prose? FOR SHAME!
What a way to view the world. They're getting one UP on me ma, you say or you convince yourself--so I should KICK EM IN THE SHINS. That'll make it better.
No it won't. It just continues to alienate people who really have no reason not to like you. But that's cool, there are enough of you here; you can keep each other company in your hmmm..despair? Envy? I don't know anymore and I really don't care.
I didn't think asking anyone for specific reasons as to what is right or wrong with someone else's writing (so I can learn from it) was an invitation to question MY skill--as one person mentioned.
If you had spent one IOTA of the energy you spent making clever comments about this guy versus giving me specific reasons why you did or didn't like his stuff, I'd have gotten some useful instruction of what writing horror is about.
But no, it's so much easy to make jokes, isn't it? Or tell me how great some other writer is and that I should read some other writer. (Ah DUH. I've been reading plenty, you asshole.)
Pile on the rabbit. Especially if he/she is doing something (at the moment--who knows how quickly tables can turn?) that's seem beyond your reach.
Oh? Writing a novel and walking into a quick copy/vanity publisher and slapping down a few thou is beyond your reach?
You are what you think you are. And on grit alone, I'd buy into this young fellow's ability compared to your yuk yuk jokes about his flaws.
His biggest flaw--in your eyes, I think--is he's DOING something. He's not sitting around cleverly criticizing his mates.
And Barney, my friend, to continually remind me to read other writers or to tell me that this person (or any person I offer up for comment) is not as good as Harlan Ellison, wastes my time. I have a pretty good idea of what good writers are about but I'm not afraid to look at bad ones and try to figure out what's bad.
But I wouldn't just tell them they are bad ("Oh, I HATE THIS!") and walk away. The first thing I would wonder was hmm..is that all he can tell me? I wonder why he said that? Could he be jealous? Nah.. why would someone be jealous of my skills? _I_ know I have things to learn. But a critique that spins nothing but a web of how clever the critiquer is at lambasting someone, is a waste of time, in my view.
And pretty much shows me what the critiquer is made of.
ALL - You help me see and recognize a part of me that I've always denied myself. It's an unusual feeling, but there's someone different in the mirror when I look. His jaw is a little more squared off. And he knows he's capable of walking the walk now.
And women can see him, too. hehehehehehe
CINDY - If you want another set of eyes on your screenplay, feel free to abuse the e-mail address above. I've got two shorts I'm doing pre-production on for Memorial Day weekend filming in New York, but between shooting schedules and casting, I'd love to take a read.
HARLAN - Goofus? I had Highlights for Children flashbacks. But thank you none the less, a'cause you'se right. Or as the caterpillar said upon exiting the chrysalis, "Holy shit - I've got WINGS!!!"
BENJAMIN - My take: Tyrone figured he'd laid the smackdown on his victim and could simply walk away. I don't think he was counting on apathy. I think he was counting steps to the door in his head and, as team Python would have said, was demonstrating How Not To Be Seen.
TODD - I feel your Yankee pain. Displaced to the Hell of Washington, I only have access to pinstripes when they're playing the O's or on a national feed. And I pine for the good old days in Catskill, NY, curled up in front of WPIX, listening to Phil Rizzuto emote "Holy cow, White - that huckleberry got all of that one!", before greed destroyed broadcasting, too.
ROB - The Lakers - they're from out on the coast somewhere, ain't they?
BARNEY - I'm always up for a road trip - EXCEPT I'm headed in the opposite direction the weekend of the 11th, which is a shame, because I'd love to spend a little time in the glow of Kevin Smith. And splitting a pitcher and comparing notes over grub (or grubs, even - I get less particular every day) would be the bomb. Alas, I'm committed in the prior sense. Mayhaps next time.
Ahh Barney, bringin' back the ole memories of dealer rooms and Q&A sessions, overpriced toys and comics that drop $10 in value if you so much as expose them to an instant of flourescent light.
I'm looking forward to WizardWorld East. Having heard great things about the Chicago version and with the HUGE list of guests, it will be a great time to network and learn as well as consume mass quantities...er, of merchandise. Boozles optional.
As far as Harrisburg goes, we've only had a handful of genre conventions. Most recently there have been hastily-organized comics conventions with guests like one of the guys who played Superboy on TV. $15 bucks, a dealer room the size of a minivan filled with case boxes you couldn't look through without blocking the narrow aisle for the other fifty guests. :)
One of the best genre cons in the area was over 10 years ago. John DeLancie was the guest. He was trying to talk about things beyond Trek and the locals were having none of it. He mentioned this new project he was working on with Leonard Nimoy. At the time there wasn't even a name for it, but a few Trek actors were going to perform classic stories...maybe live maybe for CD...but he was really excited. It was very cool to hear about Alien Voices at its genesis. Of course, Trekkers didn't want to hear anything about it when the subject matter wasn't to do with the Enterprise.
I wish I had the stone back then to approach the guy to talk more about it as he mingled with the local media. I would have loved to talk more about the Golden Age of Radio and classic horror and SF stories. I got the impression he would have enjoyed the chance to talk more on the subject, too.
I _say_ appears to... (grumble)
FINDER: Thank you. From both of us. Really. You done real good.
Don't stop.
M & A
Cindy - you can also direct people to this link:
http://www.finaldraft.com/downloads/demos.html
where it appears they can download a copy of Final Draft Viewer. (I saw appears to, because I am heading to work right now, and I don't have time to test it out.)
Cindy - Final Draft
Cindy, you don't need to re-type your Final Draft documents onto Microsoft Word. Just go to "Save as" and change the format from Final Draft file to Rich Text Format. If you have Final Draft 6.0, there is a function to save the file as a PDF (for reading with Adobe Acrobat).
Sorry, I won't be able to read your script as I keep quite busy and am usually buried in paperwork. Lynn would be more than happy to tell you about how long I kept her waiting to read her short story! Abuse from her via MSN Messenger finally convinced me to move my arse and finally read the few pages she sent ;-)
Hope it goes well.
FAQ
HEY BARNEY,
Sorry about the delay. I'm sending the screenplay. I normally use Final Draft software so it fixes typos and puts everything in proper format. UnFORTUNATELY it won't translate across the net unless the recipient has the Final Draft Reader.
So I am hurriedly retyping it in rtf so I can share it with any of y'all that want to see it. I appreciate you so much, the more input I get the more likely I'll be to hit the target in the middle.
Sooo I'll finish typing tomorrow and shoot it right over to you.
Meantime you have my
eternal gratitude.
Cindy
Barney...
I'll be at the Convention all geeked out for the Kevin Smith love-fest.
A starter set of things Unca Harlan? Oh, easy: "The Essential Ellison, 50 years (and counting)".
Come on: Let's all be literary johns, and get the kiddos hooked on reading.
It's better than drugs.
Until next time. . .
"cyberinseminate"
Lynn,
Now there is a word to conjure with. It's as though Bruce Sterling and the ghost of H.P. Lovecraft are conspiring to make stuff up to give me the whim-whams.
*** Hey Gang *** It looks as though I am going to go to a convention that is utterly non-Ellison related. This is only remarkable because outside of my incarnation as a comic dealer I haven't been to a convention that didn't feature Harlan since, umm - holy crap! - 1979. As per usual I will not know how to act. The reason I mention this is that it's the Wizard World East Con in Philly May 10 - 12th. I know a few regulars and perhaps some lurkers are in driving distance of that con so if anybody wants to say hi or pick a fight or throw a pie in my face or challenge me to a duel or split some local grub and a pitcher of Yuengling this would be your chance. It's a one day road trip with a couple of buddies and since most of the "pros" are now younger than me [cripes, when did that happen?] I don't know if I'll be able to kill 8 hours in a giant dealers room the way I used to. Everybody has my e-mail. Get in touch if you're into making plans and I'll see what I can accomodate.
Since I mentioned the '79 convention - here is the deal. I saw Harlan at a MonCon in 1978. Had one of those life altering good times. Decided to go back the following year assuming ALL conventions were that fun. Hey, I was 18. What the hell did I know. I can hear the voice of Harlan as AM shouting into the cyberdiorama "about as much as you do now kiddo!!".
I won't say who the guest was in '79 because she is probably a very nice person and I mean her no ill will but the experiance was a wee bit different. Like the difference between walking into a bar on a Saturday in Georgetown and being asked to officiate a wet t-shirt contest and ending up going home with the winner and the first two runners-up and walking into a bar in Soho on a Tuesday afternoon when your too early for happy hour. Dull. Really dull. Tumbleweed time. So not since 1979 have I willingly gone to a Harlan-lite convention.
- Barney
Jon,
Right-o-roonie.
I was thinking: for next Mother's Day we all ought to treat our moms to a viewing of Psycho. The movie has more uses than I once considered.
A toast to stability.
Alex-
How about "Essential Ellison" and, if they still have them, "Repent, Harlequin" or a tape of "Prince Myshkin"?
Hey, folks, Harlan's battle with my former employer gets news coverage in the new issue of THE WEEK. It's listed as ELLISON AND GOLIATH on page 8. No picture, but a good write-up, and quotes that will bring Harlan's voice into your ears. It's good to see the media are finally paying some attention--if for all the wrong reasons.
On another Ellisonian note: I recently got together with an old college roomie whom I hadn't seen in 20 years. His son is about to graduate high school, and, lo and behold, the kid's an Ellison fan. So I figure I'll buy him an autographed book from HERC. But which one? I can't decide. I'm open to suggestions.
Finally--anyone else going to the BEA this year?
--Alex
E-nough problems, indeed. I thought for sure you were going to let me have it for the bad pun.
Where do I find this stuff? In my mail box, that's where. People send this crap to me. I suppose in this case, it's better than getting e-knocked up.
Like I don't have e-nough problems as it is.
L.
Lynn, where do you find this stuff? Is this an extension of those "virtual pet" toys that were being sold a few years ago? Or just another example of those who want the rewards without having to do any of the labor?
Just when you though the Web couldn't possibly get more useless:
http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20020327sam0327p1.asp
L.
Rob: I should have written "writer or interviewer discussing the film Psycho" to be clearer, as I wasn't actually referring to the writer of the screenplay (Stefano) but articles and pieces I've seen about the movie.
Cheers, Jon
Jon,
On Psycho and Ed Gein:
Actually, Stefano - the film's writer (if I understood your reference) - knew nothing of the Gein case at the time; I'm not sure if Hitchcock did. I believe it was just that he had been intrigued by Bloch's basic premise.
Bloch, of course, DID base the book on Gein.
Zoë: I think you might be overthinking the plumbing here. Source material is source material – movie, book, real life experience, dream messaging. Whether that material is, in turn, based on something else is only a citation consideration, as pointed out by Helz, and others more indirectly.
If you saw only the movie – the movie is your source. If you've read the book, too – they're both separate sources – one just happens to be based on the other. If you lived through the events of the book then that, too, is separate "source material". (But then my question would be: if you lived through it, why the hell did you read the inadequate book and watch the downright crappy movie, because the actor they got to play "the bad guy" was waaaaaay too good looking, and everything seemed so much cleaner than you remembered...)
For academic purposes, you would need to point to an independant document of some sort, so I suppose dream messaging wouldn't be particularly useful there, either.
Depending on the "seriousness" of the your paper/research, obviously, material closer to original is "better", but each are separate "sources".
Jay,
Jesus, sorry about that. I meant to respond yesterday and then the analog world got in the way. No, I think it's hilarious! Bizzare, drunken as hell and just plain wrong, but hilarious!
Joseph
All you damned Yankees here: does anyone care at all that the Lakers are on the edge of a potential three-peat in the championship; that they lead Portland despite Kobe only shooting 10 of 28; or that Stockton and Malone are still in the race?
Ben,
I think MOST people - least ways those I know (whatever their ages I might add) - know Psycho is from Bloch's novel. What they don't know is the necessity for the changes to make the tale filmable: the novel opens with Norman having a dialogue with his "mother" and there's no way to shoot it unless you want to reveal his situation right away and show he's talking to a corpse. Norman himself was much different, much older and unlikeable. The complexity of character transfer (switching the sympathy for Marion to Norman half way through the film) left an open blue print for Hitchcock and Joe Stefano who ingeniously worked out the inherent problems, the biggest of which hung on the question of a character audiences could care about. Themes like personal traps and the lure of madness when we're desperate were beautifully constructed.
I like Bloch; but this was one of those books using the subjective power that only a book can manipulate. It couldn't survive its form translated as a movie.
Little Washu: _Psycho_-weirdness also involves instances in which the writer or interviewer mentions the Ed Gein case as inspiring the Hitchcock movie _without_ mentioning Bloch's novel.
Jon
Hey Joseph!
Am I to assume your silence means you thought the script sucked?
(big grins)
Jay
Have more time than I thought...
Zoe dot-dot: The reason the book that has been adapted into a movie isn't always the source material is because of what I said before about deviating from the book. If you are going to use something, a quote, that has an actor's distinct inflection, a screenwriter's own touch, then you're using the film. The credit to the book is an easy way to allow others to know there's a book out there but isn't NEEDED. I'd probably put it only because that was the basis for the movie and some sort of credit should be given to the book's author. I know it sounds contradictory, even to me, but if you're using the film adaptation ("Life is like a box of chocolates..."), then that's how I'd do it. Otherwise, go to the book ("Life ain't no box of chocolates" or something like that--I can't find my copy of Winston Groom's novel). That's what I meant. I'm probably wrong but that's my crazy thinking.
I blame the lull at work for continuing to read this board and posting. At home, it's always something: washing dishes, taking care of baby, cleaning the toilets, taking care of baby, cutting the grass, taking care of baby, finishing the monstrosity of a bitch of a half-assed deck out back, and, finally, taking care of baby.
Celluloid treatment? "House of Leaves"? Pshaw. An exercise in fiction (though, come to think of it, an example of something starting on the web and evolving into a by God published book that's made some money). The movie that NEEDS to be made from a book is Ellroy's "The Big Nowhere". Now, that's a fuckin' book that'll do well on the big white tablecloth on the wall. A few years ago, I was thinking that Jonny Depp would be Danny, Mickey Rourke would be Buzz, and the DA played by a Kevin Costner-type. Dudley Smith would, of course, be played by Brian Dennehy.
Melissa: Thanks for the correction, and the book is on my to-read list...
That's pretty much the point of talking about books vs. movies, especially biographical films based on a written biography. What if there were to be a film biography of the Kennedys based on Doris Kearns Goodwin's book? Would one cite the film, the book or the unattributed source material that got plagiarized into the book?
Or for a more historic example, consider the three different TV movies about the "Long Island Lolita" case. As I recall vaguely, one was based on Amy Fisher's story, one was pro-Buttafuoco, and the third started with news reports and court transcripts and extrapolated the rest. Which would a person look to for the "facts" of the case, or must one slog through all three to get a _Rashomon_ style perspective?
Bejamin: You are correct about PSYCHO. On the DVD of the Hitchcock-directed version they mention the book a lot at the beginning, but I would've loved to see more about Bloch and the book. Hell, I'd like to be able to see more of anything about Bloch, I've bought all the novels of his I can in the area bookstores. Except the adaptation of TWILIGHT ZONE THE MOVIE. I haven't bought that. Yet.
Zoe: I'm not ignoring you. I don't have time to post. Do you mind if I e-mail and answer at some point? Let me know either here or by e-mail.
Bill
Speaking of Mario Puzo's GODFATHER and films that overshadow their literary counterparts, does anyone even REMEMBER that PSYCHO was based on a book by Robert Bloch?
And on the subject of books that should've been converted into movies aeons ago, Mark Z. Danielewski's HOUSE OF LEAVES is screaming for the celluloid treatment. True, the plot and the characters would have to go under a major overhaul to work on film, but isn't that what book-to-films are ultimately about?
Helz:
Actually, the book "A Beautiful Mind" deals far more extensively with Nash's fathering of a child out of wedlock, and his realtionship with the mother, than the film. It also confronts Nash's experiments with homosexuality much more directly, and with a distanced, more critical eye.
Of the film and the movie, based on my experiences dealing with Scotty's brother's struggles with schizophrenia, I would state that Sylvia Nasar's biography is a far more accurate representation of a schizophrenic's life, and of the disease and its onset. Ron Howard, in my opinion, sterilized the tale to a degree where it seemed like the perennial "man overcoming difficulty" story, told with all the impact of a thrown marshmallow. You don't just think your way out of serious mental illness, as the film suggests.
If you haven't read Nasar's book, please do. I found it excellent.
Love to All, Melissa
Source Material Debate:
Didn't we all go through this with "A Beautiful Mind" just last month? How Ron Howard's film took so many liberties with Sylvia Nasr's book, expressing John Nash's mental illness as an actual plotline with actual characters, etc...then of course there were all the whispers that the book itself took liberties with Nash's life story, deemphasizing his out-of-wedlock child, the allegations of homosexuality, and so on.
Who to believe? Who to trust? Most of all, who to cite in an academic paper?
Rule of Thumb -- when a film or television production uses the term "based on real events," it's not going to be a trustworthy, journalistic account (but the broad facts are more or less right). If it's "inspired by real events," assume it's pure fiction...
I'd say, look it up in Strunk & White, the Associated Press Stylebook, and the APA Guidelines for academic citations (American Psychiatric Association, which for some reason is the standard format for academic papers). Don't trust our opinions, even our informed opinions.
Zoe Rose: I'm really not getting the "making real" point as some sort of universal guide to film adaptation. One example might be the Godfather movies. The first two films generally (and I agree with this assessment) get cited as being crowning achievements in film and fight it out with _Citizen Kane_ whenever 'Greatest American Movie Ever' lists get bandied about. The Puzo novel was a best-seller and a perfectly fine read, but I've never heard or read anyone who suggested that it should be jockeying for position with _Ulysses_ or _Clarissa_ for best novel ever honours, and if I did read or hear that, I'd expect to later find that that observer had been either carted off to the cuckoohouse or hired by USA Today to review books. And you can certainly come up with examples from the other parts of the adaptation spectrum -- movies that fail miserably despite original texts that succeed wonderfully; perfectly serviceable adaptations that sit there stolidly and leave the mind once they've been viewed; and so on, and so forth. Obviously the original work may supply anything from the complete intellectual and structural architecture of the film to an outline for wherever the film team's going, good, bad or indifferent. If that's what you mean by 'idea,' then no argument -- but not every 'idea' (which you may also be using as a catchall term for everything from images to characterization to plot) in the first two Godfather films has its origin in Puzo's text. The original work will hopefully be respected in the creation of the film, and the original work's creator(s) acknowledged and reimbursed. But _Ran_ and Peter Brooks's _King Lear_ do pretty different things with the same original text.
Cheers, Jon
Joseph: Scotty's not too perturbed. In fact, the man balmes me for his failure so far. I'll admit to a couple of screwups in maintaining his lineup, having worked as his GM 'til he can finally get back to a resonable schedule, but he's made more mistakes than me. So I've told him, it's your funeral; you dig the grave from now on.
Actually, he's having a good time with it, it's been a good diversion from endless work; league commitees screaming that they want their teams to get the best slots for playoff games, having to dig up officials to referee (most times meaning he'll wind up doing it himself), seeing to regular maintenance of the facility. He's bearing it well, and hopes all is well with all.
Love to All, Melissa
Melissa,
Aw, Scotty's just annoyed that he's getting his butt whipped at the moment. I'm sure it'll turn around and I'll have my time in the dumps.
As for the flirting, that's just part of my Irish charm.....
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. White Sox! First place! Let the adventure again!
Finder, whose post I too had to scroll back to Find:
You may be a "shrinking violet" - with a mental etching rendered by acid on glass - but you do bloom when the moment counts. Way to go. The Tick himself couldn't have done a better job.
Good morning, all. Just a quick one, whilst waiting on a firing to cool.
Faisal: Accept my warm regards for your act, and a thank you. It would be nice if people could be a bit more appreciative to those who act on their behalf; sadly, it doesn't always work out that way. Here's a thanks and a kiss. Don't worry, Scotty won't mind.
Joseph: On the other hand, Scotty grumbles that first you're taking over the league he'd helped to build, now you're hitting on his wife. As the old man is want to say, "I'm gonna give somebody's noggin a floggin'!"
Todd; I guess the Vatican's stance on child molestation is that anything worth doing is worth doing well...
Mr. Ellison: I looked at the list for sale here, but there doesn't seem to be anything Scotty wants. Do you have any first editions in slipcases, other than the ones listed (the husband has those)? If not, I hope all is well between us.
Cookie: What's the word on the CD? Any closer to fruition? We here have money in hand.
Well, that's it from here. Oh yes, Cindy, in regards for "Billy, Don't Be A Hero", Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods, the Osmonds, and all other noxious forms of bubblegum rock that seemed so pervasive in the early seventies, I carry the shame of having been a Bay City Rollers fan...
Scotty won't let me live it down.
Love to All, Melissa
Zöe: If fiction, then my argument is the same. The book is the true source as that's the first hand account, as it were. So, I suppose I agree with you and not your dad. The movie is just Franklin's bastard son, not the original Ben F.
Good morning, all!
FAQ- It sounds weird, but apparently I was born with them and nobody noticed, somehow. What can I say? I'm a freak. All I know is that one day as I was heading to gymnastics in my leotard, I noticed a bump where a bump shouldn't be. Of course, at the time I freaked out because I thought I was turning into a boy, but... c'mon. I was /twelve/. We were all dumb once. Hope your father recovers quickly, anyhow.
The Source Material Debate
Justin - After rereading your posted answer to my question, I realized that maybe you and I were saying the same thing, even though you say you were agreeing with my dad. You say in your post,
"Books and films are definitely separate entities, but nobody should watch a movie and confuse that with learning real history or reading an actual book..."
So you're saying that in order to get the full meaning/lesson/whatever, you'd have to read the book. So doesn't that make the book the source material?
Bill- I'm going to send the same kind of argument your way. You said at the end of your post,
"I think a film adaptation can be it's own source, but I'd mention, even if it's just in passing or in a footnote, the novel/story/play it came from."
See, you said 'it came from' so doesn't that make the book the source material?
John Stover - But if you could watch the movie and get the general overall idea for the book... I mean, that would lead viewers to believe that the movie was based on the book, yes? Leading to *drumroll* the book being the original content and birthplace of the idea that the movie subsequently tried to visualize and make more real. Right?
Charlie of St. Pete - Agreed, insofar as your analogy of going to the source if the book was based on reality. How about fiction, though? Just as an example, "Boy and His Dog" was based on (not written! I didn't say written!) HE's novelette, which would be the source material, to my way of thinking.
An interesting debate. Part of it is a semantics problem, as someone stated, but I'm still not convinced.
--Zoe Rose
Finder -- good work. Your tale has all the classic elements of instinctive heroism. If you ask them, most Medal of Honor winners would say that they really weren't fully aware of what they were doing, and if they had stopped to think, they never would have done it (the rational soldier stays in his damn fighting position and waits for backup, keeps his head down when the bullets are flying and falls back when told).
Nobody mentioned "My Hero" by Foo Fighters (from The Colour and the Shape, 1997), so I thought I'd throw that in.
Faisal,
Thank you!
I will look there too.
Meantime, want to read something reeeeeeeeeeeeally scary?
:)
I'd love to have your take on my little yarn. I figure the more feedback I get from diverse people the more likely I will be to get the job done correctly.
Just holler,
Cindy
Superb Job, Finder!
Regarding your post-incident worries: I think these are calls that are impossible to make, either during or after the rush of circumstances. If the guy had been armed, I don't think he would have run -- not from you, anyway -- and besides, all the security and FBI that came down on him a moment later would have had him cornered and disarmed. The important thing was that you "carried the message," in a sense, from Melanie to the larger world.
Too often, we watch something bad happen and don't step up to the plate because we're afraid of what MIGHT happen. But my experience has been that bad things happen to us when we least expect them, out of the blue, when there really hasn't been any way to prevent them (I got knifed in the chest when all I had done was walk through a bad neighborhood at the wrong time of day and stopped long enough to tell a guy that no, I don't have a cigarette because I don't smoke) ... not when we're racing to meet them.
And widening the circle of attention, by yelling and running and showing bystanders that something out of the ordinary is going on here, maybe I could use some help, is probably the last thing a malfeasor wants. It's usually a good response because you'll often get the help.
And Harlan's right. You're a hero for a day, and we're all very proud of you.
Zoe- Hernia's when you were 12!!! I hope they got your appendix out just to make it worthwhile. As to silly movies, thanks for the advice but my father has no interest in films or television... kind of strange considering what I do for a living but...
Finder - Yeah accept the applause. Years ago, when my parents were visiting a neighbour, I once grabbed his eighteen month old grandson off the road and prevented him being mowed down from a speeding motorist. Did I get any thanks? Did I fuck. The old fart still doesn't recognise me, let alone remembers the incident. Maybe one day, I will be the subject of an arty Volvo advert with M People banshee wailing 'Seeeaaarch four the heeeroooo inshide youuu' self', who knows? Just take what you get.
Chuck - I remember the Really strange picture show. It was presented by Jonathan Ross and produced by his Channel X company for Channel 4. Other participants were George Romero, Alejandro Jodorwosky and David Lynch.
Cindy - Also check out www.moviebytes.com for script competitions. The vast majority of them will only give a pittance for a hefty application fee so be careful. I always go for the ones with a bit of history behind them (i.e. Nicholl, Chesterfield, etc.)
Best.
FAQ
FAQ
This morning, on CNN.com, the headline reads: VATICAN CONFERENCE TO ISSUE SEX ABUSE GUIDELINES.
O.k., once I confirmed that I had not accidently logged into The Onion, and once I finished laughing at the thought of the hunched over pope handing over a manual with diagrams for those priests who have not yet mastered the art of child molestation, I had to wonder: who is approving this headline for the #1 internet news outlet in the country?????
-TODD
Cindy: I have not received any screenplay pages. But I do filter my Xanadu mailbox pretty aggressively, so I might have trashed it (sorry, if that's the case) - I have emailed you from a different account - try sending it there.
Xan
Hey all
If I may de-lurk momentarily, I'd just like to add my appreciation to Finder's story - magnificent, bravo sir, do as Mr. Ellison says and embrace it. A wonderful tale.
And "Way to get arrested, dumbass" had me laughing out loud.
Best regards
Jes
When I noticed how everyone on the board were heaping praise on Finder like there was no tomorrow, I knew I had missed something that I shouldn't have and scrolled back in the archives. Congrats, Finder. Everybody else has pretty much vocalized whatever I'm feeling about your tale.
I actually find it somewhat disturbing how Tyrone WALKED towards the exit rather than fleeing at top speed. Why is that? Was he just trying to draw as little attention to himself as possible to make good his escape? Or had Tyrone just adapted to how indifferent people usually are to acts of violation and violence? WHIMPER OF WHIPPED DOGS, indeed.
Quick hits:
FINDER: A sincere and austere, "Thank you." Hero or no, you stood up. And that's what's needed today.
You know, a great man once said: "... when you're down and out, and everybody thinks you're finished, that's the time to stand up on your own two feet and shout, 'Who do you have to fuck to get a break in this town?!?'"
(Um, okay; so that was from Mel Brooks' musical version of THE PRODUCERS, but still ...)
COOKIE: I swear, I REALLY want to sing with you, just for kicks, sometime.
Barney--
Thanks for the props (and the listen!). Believe me, I took your mere *mention* of widdle ol' me to be a positive stroke. Mmmmm.....!
Thanks.
FINDER: I scrolled back after HE's post and found your story. Like Lynn said: YOU ROCK.
Had you been shot or knifed and killed, you would be a martyr in the cause of good against evil. Because it wasn't your fate to die for this justice you helped to facilitate, you are a mere hero. Congratulations and thanks. I don't need "celebrity" heroes. I just need to know that there are decent, brave people like you.
I admire you and hope that I would be as savvy and active in a similar situation. Guess you'll never know until it happens.
I just can't heap enough benifecent blessings upon you and all you hold dear. Blessings, blessings; more blessings and heaps of good ol' fashioned, inexplicable luck to you!!!!!
Finder,
GodDAMN, but you got steel ones. I'm glad you're okay, and I agree with Unca Harlan: don't knock it, don't diminish it. Anything that diminishes the malevolent god of WHIMPER OF WHIPPED DOGS is more than okay in my book.
We are a feisty and querulous bunch, but this group is chock-a-block with great folks.
As for the early films of Sam Raimi, I remember that Discovery Channel had a series called THE REALLY STRANGE PICTURE SHOW. I think it was called that. I'm pretty sure it had "strange", "picture", and "show" in the title. There was an episode devoted to Raimi and his growth as a filmmaker, including the magnetic sound 8mm movies he, Bruce Campbell and others made. Think Three Stooges with gore. You can see a lot of that in the Evil Dead movies.
Clips from the 8mm "WOODS" movie were also shown. They had a two by four with a camera rigged on it to get the low-to-the-ground steadycam effect. They called it "shakey cam". The 8mm film was used to get investors to fund EVIL DEAD. So, it impressed someone.
Chuck
Cindy~ Original Cindy is Max's (Jessica Alba's) lesbian sidekick. She is just as kick ass as Max is, in her own right. Then again, I haven't watched it since the first season ended. After that, it went really weird.
L.
Cindy?
Dark Angel teleplay? Huh? Did I sleep through something? You've written one? May I?
This has Jessica Alba? Gosh I wish I were younger so my own lusts wouldn't seem so lecherous. :)
Zöe: I don’t accept the premise how you are defining source material. The best source is a first hand account. An author’s account is usually a second hand re-telling of an event, unless the author was the participant. Over the past few years I’ve interviewed several WWII veterans and IMO Tom Brokaw is wrong calling those WWII vets the “Greatest Generation.” By giving them such an appellation dismisses all past, present, future generations as less great. Many were young men draftees who were sent into battle, trained others to fly planes, repaired vehicles and airstrips, guarded the coastline in blimps, etc. I know they are not the only generation throughout history who would accomplish such things. Want to learn about the Holocaust—books and movies may provide a nice foundation; however, go talk to survivors; go to a concentration camp. I did. Went to Dachau. The scariest place I ever set foot. The barracks were gone, but the ovens weren’t and the memories still lingered. That’s source material.
Bill!
Kiss, kiss!
Couldn't help myself.. I only regret that I forgot the instrumental hot licks between the lines.
As in:
Beeeleh don't be a heeroh don't be a fool with
yer lie ie ief. ..
Nyair Nynair Nynair Nynair nuh nuh nyair,
Billeh don't be a heeeroh etc.
Thank you for affording me the opportunity to add that. It really seemed naked and counterfeit without it.
When I re-read the post I realized my oversight and was certain I'd be judged as some sort of faux retro music guru.
Again, you are sweet to acknowledge me.. I won't forget!
:)
Cindy
Lynn!
I'd be most honored if you would read my screenplay. I need all the input I can get right now. I'm fixin' to enter it in the Austin Film Festival's screenplay competition ALSO I am hoping for another round of Project Greenlight.
Tell me about the Dark Angel character. All I know is my son is in lust with the girl that plays her.
:)
Thanks again so much for reading, I appreciate it more than you know.
Cindy
Finder: "Way to get arrested, dumbass!"
Hell, I thought I was the only one who yells that.
Congrats for having the balls most wish they had. Sitting back and thinking about what could have happened doesn't do you any good. The act was a good one. That's all you need.
Tony
Zoe: Sounds more like a semantics problem than anything else -- the novel (or stage play or comic or opera) is the source material, but the movie's still a different text. They're not really incompatible ideas. Watching _The French Lieutenant's Woman_ in lieu of reading the novel for an exam involving the novel is going to really bugger your answers, but that's a different problem.
Jon
Bill & Justin - What you say is true... but doesn't the fact that if the book hadn't been written, the movie wouldn't have ever been made, have some effect on the discussion? I mean, I can see where a movie can garner some different interpretations, involve some unique 'action' or 'lines', but... I'm not quite sure how to word what I'm thinking. It seems to me 'source material' means original intent/direction/beginning structure, kinda, and the movies based off books owe their origins to the books themselves.
Does that make sense, or am I stating something obvious and defining 'source material' wrong, do you think?
--Zoë Rose
Zoe dot dot: I'm with your pops. Movies can be used as source material. Still, if you're going to use a film as such then a mention of the inspiration for the flick should figure prominently somewhere in the piece. The problem is that your average uncultured Joe will watch, say, CIDER HOUSE RULES, and assume it's the same as the book, that he knows everything he needs to know about the book, and that he certainly doesn't need to sit down and actually READ the thing now. Or he'll watch SCHINDLER'S LIST, and try to come off as though he suddenly knows everything about the Holocaust. Books and films are definitely separate entities, but nobody should watch a movie and confuse that with learning real history or reading an actual book, which happens more often than not, much to the supreme annoyance of Harlan Ellisons and college professors at the Universtiy of Arizona.
Zoe:
I think it depends on the movie but, in lots of cases, they could be their own source material simply because they are a different medium. A movie has to have its own internal logic that might not coincide with the novel's to tell the same story. Take Jack Nicholson's "Heeeerrre's Johnny!" from THE SHINING. That is purely from the screenplay by Stanley Kubrick and Diane Johnson (unless it was an improvisation on Nicholson's part), but never appears in Stephen King's novel. However, if I were to use that line as a source, I would mention it was from the movie adapted from King's novel, just to cover all ground. Please, fill in your own scene with authors if you wish. So, yeah, I think a film adaptation can be it's own source, but I'd mention, even if it's just in passing or in a footnote, the novel/story/play it came from.
Cindy: There's always one...
Bill
Finder: Awesome! Guys like you date ladies with names like Lois Lane and Vicky Vale, brutha.
I read "The Universe According to Robert Blake" when I was 15 or so, and ended up writing a paper about it in school. Having spent lots of time in schools were I was in a pretty small minority, I wasn't exactly a total stranger to racism (or "reverse racism" as it's called), but the story really packed a huge punch for me. It dealt with the subject of racism more effectively than in anything I'd ever read up to that point. You really FEEL it in your bones. It definitely heightened my appreciation for a lot of the racial texts I read subsequently. It's a very powerful story and worth reading, so check it out. It's in Edgeworks vol. 1.
Peace out.
J
Frank, tell your 'unfair money advantage' whiny tales to the Dodgers. Tell them to Baltimore who just two years ago had a humongous payroll and finished just inches above the Devil Rays. Tell it to the Mets who also live in NY and can spend as much as they choose to spend. And the Mariners owned by a very rich corporation who can go to town on payroll whenever they choose. Or to Cleveland and their looooong streak of sellouts at the Jacob that was just ended late last year. And to the Cubs who are owned by a corporation that can easily spend the money...if they choose. Crying about the Yankee payroll is quite the cliche when most teams in baseball have the revenue to spend but choose not to.....or spend it poorly like the Dodgers do year after year after year.
Sure, there are those small market teams that don't have the money backing.....but if you count them up, and then count up the teams that have the money and don't spend it, or spend it poorly, I would hardly say that the Yankees have an unfair advantage. I root for the Expos and the Twins and the Royals often, especially to prove to those money whiners that it ain't always the big bucks that bring success.
Wah wah wah. A very tired argument.
-TODD
So I suppose Tina Turner's "We don't need another hero" is just right out then. (Too bad. Good song.)
Finder~ You rock. Nuff Said.
Cindy~ (Every time I hear your name, I think of the character from Dark Angel, Original Cindy.) Can ya fling me some script pages too? Thanks in advance!
L.
Good evening, all-
FAQ- Ish, dad got a hernia operation? Don't rent him any funny movies. That might seem an odd thing to say - ok, it _is_ an odd thing to say, but I had two abdominal hernias operated on when I was twelve, and my loving, well-meaning parents rented me silly movies. It hurt so much to laugh that I was sobbing and they thought I was still partially drugged. Very sad. So, hence the 'no funny movies' suggestion.
CINDY- Got the pages here, thanks
FINDER- Ditto to all these other well-worded folks. There really ARE decent people out there...
Question for all of you - my dad and I were getting into a discussion via e-mail about whether or not a movie could be considered source material, even if it was 'based' on a book. What do you all think? My position was that movies based off a book weren't source material, and his point was that perhaps movie become their own story, with unique dialects, sounds, and other features books don't necessarily have - thus becoming, in effect, their own source material, like they're telling their own, separate story. Thoughts?
And I promise this isn't part of a college-course discussion, guys. *smile*
--Zoë Rose
Oh c'mon don't deprive us.
Billeh
don't be a Heeeroh
Don't be a fool with you li ie ief
Billeh don't be a heeeeroh
come back and
make me yer wi ie ief..
an'
as he started to go
Ah said
Billeh keep yer
head
low oh oh
Billeh
don't be
a
HEEroh
come back to
me hee hee.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I'm a mom too.
Cindy
Shane, thanks for skipping past "Billy Don't Be a Hero." My mother used to torment me with that song.
Seriously, though, good for you, Finder. In today's cynical, apathetic world, where too many people stand back thinking of the consequences and allowing the evildoers to get away, it's inpiring to find someone who's done the right thing, the selfless thing. I toast my tea to you, sir.
Bill
Finder,
Let me add my quarter to the jukebox, finger sliding right past "Billy, don't be a hero" and instead landing on Bonnnie Tyler's "Holding out for a hero." You done good and a whole lotta people are glad you were at the right place at the right time and took the right action.
Best,
Shane
Xanadu: That was very, very funny. I'm going over to the Mel's Furnitureland Virtual Web Warehouse to raise hell using bad poetry as an example now.
O! I have seen thee, Queen of Cheese,
Lying gently at thy ease,
Thy fair form no flies dare seize.
If you were hung from balloon,
People would think it was the moon,
Come to fall and crush them soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, James McIntyre, the Ingersoll Cheese Poet.
Jon
Xanadu: That was very, very funny. I'm going over to the Mel's Furnitureland Virtual Web Warehouse to raise hell using bad poetry as an example now.
O! I have seen thee, Queen of Cheese,
Lying gently at thy ease,
Thy fair form no flies dare seize.
If you were hung from balloon,
People would think it was the moon,
Come to fall and crush them soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, James McIntyre, the Ingersoll Cheese Poet.
Jon
I noticed that the E channel showed, the Terminator. One thing that was obvious was the lack of the name, Harlan Ellison in the credits. Did I miss something?
Frank - Thanks. I have yet to have a look at it but have saved the relevant pages, but I can't comment until I read it.
(which is going to take time as my father just had a hernia operation... ouch!).
FAQ
Let's get some reality based forensics here: The Yankees win because the team have an unfair monetary advantage, ala, the greedy Steinbrenner. When you can buy the best players, then ergo, you win--capice?
Todd,
A) Lamentable White Sox season? Have you looked at the stats lately? It's going to be a damn exciting regular season for both our teams!
B) Oh, I understood your TV point. I was just whining, as I choose not to pay for cable (Netflix fulfills my movie needs, and I glom off friends for things like "Longtitude").
Regards,
Joseph
*** Finder *** That's about the best thing I've heard in weeks. High fives and back slapping and all that stuff. Harlan has it just right. Good on ya mate!
*** Cookie *** I would like to go all Lamont Cranston on you or pretend I sat in on one of your New York gigs and then vanished in a dark blue fog but the simple fact is I know exactly what you sound like because I actually downloaded and listened to that audio file you posted awhile back. I just came to it a couple of weeks after the fact and didn't have much to contribute beyond something like "nice pipes". Mentioning you was a giggle because it propped up my somewhat bogus claim to inclusivity. Bogus NOT because I don't like you, but because anybody reading my posts here for the last 3+ years knows that I am an out of the closet elitist.
I hope you know that even though Tom Waits has a voice like 80 grit sandpaper that was a compliment. Plus, for those who care we get 2[!!!!] new studio CD's from Mr. Waits next month.
A friend of mine [Nick Nguyen] just sent me a compilation cd with some great stuff on it [ Manu Chao, Beck, Parliament, Me'Shell N'degeOcello, Massive Attack, Morphine, etc.] BUT the two tracks that blew me away were Nat King Cole doing "Aquellos Ojos Verdes" and the Propellerheads doing "History Repeating Itself". Now the Nat King Cole catalog I already own but will now get some dusting off. What I want to know is if anybody else is familiar with that Propellerhead track. IF that is representative then I have a new aquisition bug up my ass. The only "new" music I've had time to absorb is Don Byron's "Bug Music" which everybody should quickly dogpile on.
*** Stockbridge thread *** To whoever called me on this. Busted. Stockbridge was the house name. BUT the stuff that we associate with the full tilt boogie demented nature of the Spider prose style [which should only be replicated under controlled laboratory conditions] should ALL be attributed to Norvell Page. Before Norvell Page got on board, and during the one extended break The Spider was a weak sister (a Shadow if you will) of the Master of Men that Spider fans are familiar with. I have a book by Don Hutchison called "The Great Pulp Heroes" [Mosaic Press / isbn #0-88962-585-9] which devotes 18 pages to this mostly unsung twisted wordsmith. I'm sure Ron Goulart also wrote about him but I think Hutchison has the True Gen. If the pulps had their own Ed Wood it may have been this fellow.
- Barney
Joseph, P.S., I'm not lamenting that I don't get my Yankee fix on free teevee....I'm lamenting that I'm willing to pay for my Yankee fix, and because my cable company wants to cry like big babies because the team started their own network, and because the network wants to cry like big babies that our cable company wants to make them a pay-channel and not an everyone-who- subscribes-to-cablevision-pays channel, I CAN'T!
I assume you can at least pay for those silly little figure skaters you root for, but just choose not to......?
-TODD
Joseph, Blackhawks? Is there such a team out there.....oh, wait, I forget, you Chicago folks are all into those teams that never win championships unless they feature Michael Jordan. That's right....Blackhawks....they're the guys that ice skate and hit cow pucks around before going home for a disappointing summer of watching the Cubs and White Sox.
-TODD
XANADU
Did you get some screenplay pages from me?
Cindy
Todd,
Oh, boo hoo. You can watch only 30 games on free TV. Try being a Blackhawks fan. Wanna know how many games are on free TV a year? 0! Zero! A Big Fat Goose Egg! And by choice of the owner!
So go cry a Yankee river to someone else. I'm gonna go crawl in a corner and feel sorry for myself.
Regards,
Joseph
Turn around, Joseph, there's now no one between you and the Deathbird's Tail. We's gonna flush the Flash before the weekend is out.
Now if only I could WATCH MY FUCKING YANKEES ON TEEVEE!!!! I'm hot in the middle of the war between Cablevision and the YES (new Yankee Entertainment and Sports) Network. While they each stand by like petulant children waiting for one to give in, us Yankee fans who are stuck with Cablevision or nothing (I can't go satellite, I live in a condo)must drift in the world of baseball on the radio. Monopolies are against the law? Hmmm, when was the last time I could switch cable companies.
So here I sit, 50 miles from Yankee stadium, a man who normally watches about 120 Yankee games a year, and all I get is my team on free teevee just 30 times this year until one of the babies gives in (since they are both losing boocoo revenue in this fight, it's proof that they are just acting like children who don't want to cave first).
Ahhhh, but I have Yankees on radio, you say, and baseball is still a wonderful game on radio. I do agree....except for the fact that THE YANKEES MOVED TO A NEW RADIO STATION THIS YEAR AND IT COMES IN LIKE SHIT AROUND THESE HILLS OF NEW JOISEY!
Ahhhh, you say, but you can listen as best you can on the radio and every so often check the live updates on the internet since you have cable modem through Cablevision....yep, sure can, except when GODDAMN CABLEVISION DECIDES TO UPGRADE OUR CABLE LINES FOR DIGITAL ALL WEEK AND MY FUCKING CABLE MODEM GOES DOWN EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME I REFRESH THE SCREEN.
Ahhhh, Todd, it's only a game. Just think, if you get your wish and move to Phoenix, you will have to follow your Yankees long distance anyway. Get used to it. You still have the newspapers.
Yup, I say, except the sad fact is that if I were in Phoenix right now, I bet I could get the fucking YES network on satellite out there while I can't get it here, 50 miles from the fucking stadium.
Todd, this is the Harlan Ellison web board. Though we all talk about many topics, we really don't give a rat's shiny ass about your problems, so minor that they are. So please stop wasting our time.
Ok Ok, I'm sorry. I promise not to bitch too much. (razzafrazza friggadigga)
-TODD
All: Just remember, during the whacking of moonlighter, that _he_ did not come here, _he_ did not ask for our input – in fact, he didn't even ask for the input of the board he posted to. It was Heather who wanted to know whether what she read was good. Folks, _Heather_ can't tell when she reads something that bad.
Now, to Heather: Writing is a craft. Like making furniture, blowing glass, weaving a basket, singing, painting, or creating pottery. It is the collection of nuts-and-bolts skills, talent and discipline to take the raw material and from it, fashion something useful, entertaining, or in rare cases, enlightening.
For writing, the raw material is words – with a dash of punctuation thrown in for good measure. That's it. Everything a writer evokes is through their ability to put words together well. If they cannot, they will fail.
Let me translate this discussion to another craft for the sake of argument...
Heather: "Hey guys, I found this guy who's about to release a new line of Victorian furniture. Here's one of his chairs, what do you think – is it Victorian?"
The Rest Of Us (variously): "Uh, will that thing stand?", "Can you even sit in it?", "You'd think having one of the legs in that position would hurt any male who tries to sit down.", "Did he use BALSA WOOD?"
H: "Thanks a lot guys, I wanted to know if it worked as a Victorian and you guys just piled on his woodworking ability without answering my question."
TROU (variously): "It's not really a chair at all.", "It's poorly constructed.", "This guy better get out of the furniture business quick, he is gonna lose a lot of money!", "It's not Victorian – in fact, it's hard to ascribe any particular 'style' to it..."
H: "Fine, don't answer..."
What I am trying to say is this: you're asking the wrong question, Heather. His ability to reuse common tropes and situations of a particular genre (stuff that seems familiar) is irrelevant – he doesn't have the BASIC SKILL-SET necessary to be a writer. (and at 28, if the age I read was correct, he will likely never will) He uses awkward constructions, badly drawn similes and he punctuates badly – failure at the most basic level of this craft. He could have the coolest ideas on the planet, but if he doesn't have the talent, the skills OR the discipline to express them, he will never succeed.
And if you cannot recognize his lack of skills at a glance – despite a desire to admire his stick-to-it-tivness, I fear for your future in this craft as well.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.
ZOE AND HEATHER,
I just sent y'all another chunk of my screenplay. Thanks for asking.
Let me know when you want more.
:)
Cindy
Finder, reminds me of the one good moment in Tom Clancy, when in the movie Patriot Games, Harrison Ford responds, when asked why he risked his life to stop a terrorist action:
"Because it pissed me off."
Well done, Lurk
FINDER:
Stop scuffing your toe in the dirt of humility. Gary Cooper is dead; you're not his replacement. Bite into that succulent fruit of Calling Things By Their Real Names. Enjoy the cool, reifying savor accepting the simple appellation, the absolutely correct designation: HERO. Trust me on this, boychik, I've been there, done that. Many times. It is a heady vintage. And, like cowardice, it is habit-forming. Do it once, get that rush, eschew the demeaning "gee, I don't think of myself as a hero, just an average guy, y'know, who charged a machine gun nest and saved the lives of seventy men," and you'll find it outdoes dope or drink or sex or Art as an aphrodisiac. Just because your moment never came previously, you misidentified yourself as, what did you call yourself, a "shrinking violet." Face the reality, goofus: obviously you are NOT a shrinking violet.
This has been a life-clarifying moment for you. Most people never get blessed with one. Stop trying to make it small. Embrace it, learn who you Really Are, and live the new life you've given yourself. In psychiatry, they call less blazing moments of truth and clarity a "breakthrough" or--theologically--an "epiphany."
You're a hero. We spend our lives waiting for Fate to give us our marching orders. You've gotten yours. Congratulations.
TO WHOEVER ASKED:
My short story, "The Universe of Robert Blake" was written when I was in the Army, 1958 or 59. Long before I came to Hollywood and met Bobby. Or, in fact, ever thought of him as anything other than Bobby Blake, Little Beaver of the Red Ryder western movies. It is a story about a little black kid on the day he discovers he's a "nigger." Has nothing to do with Robert Blake, the actor. Coincidence, is all it is.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Todd, with Entertainment Weekly as your cultural guide, I am not surprised that you would downplay the wonderful, and in depth reportage of Jews For Justice. But I expect this from you Todd; at least you didn't let me down.
---------------------
Faisel, what do you think of the Jews For Justice study?
Edward,
Yes. Yes, I do.
Finder,
Good man. Just remember not to sign up for any active duty or anything. That same "switch" that made you run after the guy is the same one that's gonna make you jump on top of that grenade to save your buddies.
Dan,
The badge and decoder ring can be found in specially marked packages of "Churlish" cereal. Accept no substitues.
I can hardly keep up with y'all, but one topic catches my eye and that is that we owe it to be "nurturing" to folks learning an art form. On one level, yes, if we want to see an art flourish, we need to keep our eyes open for young, new talent. At the same time, young artists are wise to study and LEARN craft.
Barney, man! You've never heard me so how do you know you wanna leave the singing to me???:) Seriously, I'm a good musician though I'm not a genius. Singing (and some wheelin' and dealin')got me two degrees and a little regional niche to hang out my "jazz singer" shingle.
Anyway, the hardest thing in the world to hear is criticism. As an adjunct instructor teaching a .5 credit "class" (actually, I'm runnin' a band), grades are a joke. Still, I must professionally criticize and offer solutions to what my musicians do. It's the same job that editors and writing teachers do.
Usually, students are receptive to that criticism, but sometimes they are not. They remain locked in the world of their own perceived genius and worth. I remember thinking I knew it all and was so goddam hip when I was an undergrad. Good thing I got my ass kicked. It's hard to be receptive to criticism because it seems so personal. I mean think about it: My voice is the only one I have. Criticizing my singing is criticizing ME. Some people don't like the sound of my voice and some people don't like the way I use it. It was difficult to study classical singing because its aesthetic was so different from the music I play. It was like learning grammar. At the same time, classical technique gave me some useful tools to make my music more easily. It was a painful discipline and included having a teacher continually tell me I sounded "tense in the jaw" or was "pressing on the tone" or "scooping" when I was getting a lot of strokes and some cash from singing even more outrageously in bars. I hated going to the voice studio. I eventually learned to separate criticism of my technique from criticism of my ideas and potential (that, BTW, was due to an open-minded voice teacher who loved and believed in me). I then began to sing more easily because the technique facilitates the expression. The thing is, though, that I had to be willing to LEARN.
In short, pay your dues.
Also, if someone just has NO potential, it's a kind thing to tell them. They'll either persist and fail miserably, or they'll persist and slowly improve through sheer determination and optimism. Or perhaps they'll turn their interests in another direction and thank you for it later.
I've forgotten the gentleman's name, but a very famous 18th-century voice teacher wrote a terrific treatise/instruction book about singing. A couple of things made me laugh because I recognize them as timeless and universal. One was that a singer never feels well today. She felt well yesterday and expects she'll feel better tomorrow, maybe next week. The second was that if a child showed no aptitude for music, the right thing to do is to tell the child's parents to save their money.
Jay -- You tell me you're interested, and post me a mailing address. Are you interested in Bradbury stories, Milne poems, or Sherlock Holmes stories? I've also recorded Peter Mayle's _A Year in Provence_ and Bradbury's _Something Wicked This Way Comes_, but being longer efforts (six or eight 110-minute cassettes apiece), they take longer to process and mail.
Jay: Anchor Bay just about got "Within the Woods" on the most recent limited edition of "Evil Dead." But, in the end, as Joseph pointed out earlier, despite feverish efforts, they couldn't claim the rights. I know there's an outfit in Miami that sells really bad copies of Raimi's Super 8 work (they have a tape that not only contains "Within the Woods," but the infamous Pillsbury Doughboy movie and "The Happy Valley Kid"). Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it. I wish someone would release Raimi's Super 8 work on DVD. Given that Anchor Bay was insane enough to release "Thou Shalt Not Kill...Except," a remarkably terrible movie directed by Josh Bender featuring Sam Raimi as a wig-wearing bad guy and a gaunt Ted Raimi trying to look tough as "the Chain Man," one would hope that the same feverish zeal eventually leads to Raimi's other work making the rounds.
Washu: I understand that Tinglebum's job security faces serious jeopardy after the publication of that essay. But word on the street about Carpenter is that he's trying to go back to a simple storyline (a la "Assault on Precinct 13" or "Halloween") for his next one.
Rich: The "more power to him" line was largely thrown out there as a token gesture. But perhaps they were poorly chosen words. And as someone who sweats every morning, the idea of handing this kid the keys to the castle certainly frightens the hell out of me as well. But I don't wish Moonlighter any ill will. The guy can't write, true, but for all I know, he could be a hell of a nice guy or, years from now, he could eventually develop into something beyond where he is right now. But I don't see any real reason to dwell on offal for a lengthy period of time and let tinny shrpanel immerse itself beneath the flesh in this case, do you?
Joseph -
D'OH!
- Jay
Hey did you ever finish that doorstop of a script I sent you?
He was presented to the group as a writer proud of being published which, to me, put him at a higher level of inspection than a kid who needs simple advice on moving forward with his budding craft.
We approached him honestly and critically, though I agree with Heather we were quite harsh. This is because of that status he pretends on the website. While I highly suspect this "publisher" is a vanity press, Moonlighter certainly doesn't go out of his way to clarify the point so I have to judge him as though he's reached this plateau in a very competitive field. I feel, as I think most of us do, that once you've "arrived" (been published) you become a target and subject to the same strict, hyper-critical analysis as anyone who has a name in print.
Heather maintains that we should nurture this budding talent and offer critical advice to help him grow into a bright, beautiful literary flower. In a way, I think we've provided more than enough fertilizer to help the kid examine his key faults, including the really icky metaphor I just used.
She also contends that vanity is no different than having a company buy into your work - it's being published and shares the same status. I respectfully disagree. Moonlighter's work requires a significant amount of work to be considered by a slushpile reader, much less be sought out by a major publisher. I say that realistically, not to the slap the kid in the face. As a member of the Rejection Letter Collector's Guild, I know it is much different to earn that coveted acceptance letter, to earn that moment of excitement and pride. THAT is something you can't get in a vanity press; when a group of individuals decide to invest in you as an artist and as a commercial property.
I think we all have the same idea of where Moonlighter's skill places him on this road to publication.
If this is, as Heather indicates, some uninitiated scribbler with a vanity press contract - a student in need of assistance - how would we react to him? What would we tell him differently? I think the advice we gave is strong and important to his growth, so perhaps the TONE is the only aspect that could be changed? I dunno.
In any case, I wish him well and humbly suggest that Heather take the best bits of advice and pass them along to Moonlighter. If he's not ready to take the criticism as we posted it, then he needs more help than the board can provide.
Jay
Jay,
Even worse - "Woods" was shot on 8mm film. "Evil Dead" was shot on 16mm.
Regards,
Joseph
FINDER FINDS OUT WHAT HE'S MADE OF
You ARE a HERO!!!!!!!!
But God DAMN, don't EVER do that again! Let 'em run if it's just a purse.
Still, I'm so proud of you! You're the impression of US that the German lady is taking back to her country.
You're a real man, which is the highest compliment I can give a guy.
:)
Cindy
L'il Washu/Joseph -
Yeah, I've heard the quality of "Within the Woods" is lousy, but its the first time they worked with 16mm and TRIED to be professional. Campbell talks about it fondly in his autobio and refers to tricks Raimi invented to keep costs down. Which leads to a LEGAL question...
What is the Internet version of "Fair Educational Use" for (C) material? What is fair and reasonable use when downloading visual media for this purpose?
Finder - Bravo. Congratulations. Take an Free Absolution card out of the fishbowl on your way out the door, courtesy Reverend Jay and the Universal Life Church. :)
David Loftus - Where can one get these marvelous recordings Heather speaks of... or "of which Heather speaks?"
More later as I must get food in my belly.
It's _On Becoming a Novelist_, David. Part of that search turned up this interesting interview with Dan Simmons. Scroll down for his advice on dealing with "I can write better than that" if you're interested:
http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/sep01/simmons.htm
Jon
Finder;
You stand with Jay, my Scotty, Alia, and probably more than a few of the others who come here as one of those people who gives a damn; one of those who know that if you want a better world, you've got to do some work toward it.
You're one of those who can throw off the malaise that seems to permeate our society, that ennui toward others that so many display and justify with a gutless "Well, what can I do about it?", or "It's not my problem". As a result, you show that us scuttling little creatures, with a bit of effort, can show a little of the decency we always profess we have.
All I can say is well done. Not much, I know. And thank you.
Love to all, Melissa
You just fucked us all an awful lot, Todd...
But I did like Carpenter's 'They Live' in spite of the disappointing direction he took it in the thoid act (sinking his feet in predictable Schwarzenegger cliches, which didn't even work as a send-up).
WARNING: Long-ass post with no bearing on the Middle East, the Evil Dead, piss-poor writing or anything else - just a brief tale from the improbable files of the Finder, postmarked Saturday, 4/20/02 that I needed to share.
His name was Tyrone. He had come in the rear courtyard entrance of the Renaissance hotel - across from the DC Convention Center. Sauntered in through the doors near the restaurant. My cousin Melanie noticed him. He looked out of place in the lobby of the Renaissance - hip-hop gear, hat turned around. He passed behind me - I never saw him walk in. Mel saw, though. Her hackles went up. He went down the hallway to the restrooms. Mel ticked off a mental note and we continued keeping a lookout for the friends we were meeting.
Her name was Winnie. She'd been in the United States from Germany for less than two hours - her first trip to the US. She was with her boyfriend Michael, down from PA to meet her. They were going to see some sights - the White House, the Washington Monument, and so on - before moving on to Boston on Sunday. They stopped at the Renaissance to check rates - they still didn't have a place to stay. Winnie talked to the people at the front desk, then went on from the front desk to the ladies room.
Tyrone was waiting for Winnie in the ladies room. Not specifically for her - for the next woman in. Could have been my cousin, I note in retrospect. And she wonders why I walk with her when she walks the dog at night. From Winnie's account, when she walked through the door, Tyrone grabbed her by the hair and threw her down on the floor, liberating her handbag from her in the process. And then he started to walk - TO WALK - out of the hotel.
Except two things happened: Winnie, who hadn't been knocked senseless, began to scream. And Melanie turned around upon hearing the screams to see Tyrone walking towards the rear doors of the lobby, where he had come in, clutching a handbag against him, and she screamed "OH MY GOD, HE'S GOT HER PURSE!!!"
The next four seconds are a blur in my head. Just the next four, because the rest is etched in the mind as if rendered by acid on glass. Melanie likens it to a scene from the Beastie Boys "Sabotage" video: Tyrone upgraded his "draw no attention" walk to an "oops, gotta flee" run; Winnie came running out from the bathroom area screaming "Stop him!"; and, according to Melanie, I vaulted the low wall and planter behind the small couch I was sitting on in order to give chase.
I may have lept over it. Hell, I must have, because I didn't get to the doors on sunshine and good wishes. I remember landing on the tile floor of the lobby and having a momentary concern about slipping and falling on my ass, because I was in my black leather shoes. No one likes a clumsy man of action.
I pursued. I ran after Tyrone - out the back doors, through the courtyard between the Renaissance and the Technology Center, out to New York Avenue. If he'd gone right, he'd have gotten away - I've dropped 45 pounds in the last two years, and I've been going to the gym, but my speed burst has a max duration of about a city block, and I doubt I could have kept up for very long. But I cut my turn into the courtyard wide to the right, and so he veered left, ran into the street, spilled some of the contents of the bag in the street, continued left when he hit the far sidewalk. He dropped the bag, and ran right into the arms of hotel security, who had gone out the front door and seen him coming their way.
I never laid a hand on him. Never got closer than twelve feet. But I helped Tyrone make a hasty choice that worked against him. The hotel security people, the two FBI guys who broke cover on their World Bank/IMF detail, the three city cops and the Park policeman all saw to that. They put him down, knee in the back, arms behind him, Tyrone screaming to be let up, that he hadn't done nothin', that he just wanted to sit up, that he was the wrong guy, never mind what the people who'd seen him running with and dropping the bag said.
Winnie got her bag back, intact - passport, cash, keys, credit cards, phone, everything. She clutched on to me for dear life until her boyfriend was located and brought over to her, thanking me repeatedly for keeping after the guy. Statements were collected, information was taken down by the hotel and the DC police, Winnie asked me to pose with her for a picture (I've become a vacation story for the folks back in Germany), the hotel put her and her boyfriend up for the night and fed them well in an attempt to show good faith for a very bad thing that happened on their property, the Detective on the scene thanked me and called me a "good citizen" for chasing after him, a passenger in a passing car heckled Tyrone ("Way to get arrested, dumbass!") and as I was getting ready to go back into the hotel (where Winnie and Michael later bought me a Guinness, once they were settled, in thanks that I didn't feel were necessary), Winnie said observationally "It's a good thing he didn't have a gun or a knife."
And THAT'S when, for the first time in the entire event, it dawned on me that Tyron COULD have had a knife or gun, that he could have put my lights out or gutted me like a hundred ninety five pounds of mackerel if he thought it worth his time - and THAT brought on the mental shakes when I finally came down off my adrenal high about 90 minutes later.
He didn't, and that's the start and finish of it. Except that he COULD have. And I never even considered it.
And I'm sitting here, three days later, still trying to process it all, and I'm still asking myself where the "GO" trigger inside came from that burned through my typical caution. I'm a wallflower. A shrinking violet. Always have been. Three family members in a row said (in puzzled voice) "DJ did that?" when they heard the story.
Believe me, no one was more surprised than me.
Something snapped inside. Someone cried for help. I went. I did. I have no idea of the flashpoint - how or where or why or from what point in my inner most core the switch was thrown - I simply needed to do something. Should it scare me that I only thought it through after Tyrone had been stuffed into the back of the unit sent to ferry him to jail? Dad was a cop, mom is a court clerk. Maybe it's in the blood.
It is, perhaps, in the scheme of things, an event of very little cosmic significance. I helped a lady get her purse back, and kept her from the hell of being stuck in a foreign country with no identity and no access to her life. I think I even helped blot away some of the bad first impression Tyrone gave her of the nation's capitol.
Mel says I'm a hero. I don't know about all that. I figure I'm just a guy who was in the right place to try to do the right thing at the right time. But it makes me smile to feel like I made a difference - what is it Emerson said - "To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded."
I'm just glad they caught the son of a bitch. I hate running for no good reason...
JIM DAVIS - I don't feel singled out at all. Wouldn't have gone there if I wasn't willing to stare into the mirror. The very simple fact of the matter is that I have intimacy issues. I'm fine up to a point, but when I reach a certain line in the sand, I tuck tail and run. Where these issues come from is a sedimentary-style set of layers that will make some psychologist's trip to Aruba much more souvenir-friendly. I also choose badly. Very badly. Godzilla yanking the wings off Mothra and kicking over Mount Fuji badly. Or, as one friend told me, "Your picker is broken." Which must be said very slowly and deliberately in order to avoid those pesky misunderstandings. It's all very strange at times, and a little silly because (not to toot my own horn, but no one else will do it for me) I'm a real sweetheart with a deep and abiding sensitivity and attentiveness to the opposite sex. (The other friend quote (no kidding): "Dude, you're a MAN who LISTENS. Knock it off. You're going to fuck it up for the rest of us.") Knowing my stumbling blocks, I'm working on curing them.
As for a pro to "break me in" - no. Not yet. There might have been a time I'd have gone in search of one, and I never say never, but I don't look on this as a boil to be lanced, either. When I'm ready, I'll jump. And if I shuffle off this mortal coil before I've had that maddening kind of experience that burns itself in long, echoing moans and sighs and giggles into the gray matter for the rest of time, well, you can't miss the taste of ice cream if you've never had any. My two cents, anyway – your mileage may vary.
Dropping in to say that I'm a new member of the Barney and Rich Fan Club. Where can I get my official badge and decoder ring?
Amen, guys!
Just a little evidence in support of Barney's theory that Harlan "learned to write in public" and his literary reputation may have suffered for it:
In one of his books about how to write, the serious novelist and writing teacher John Gardner (not the author of James Bond novels and cool pastiches of Holmes from the point of view of Moriarty, but the late author of _Grendel_ and _October Light_ and _On Moral Fiction_ and _In The Suicide Mountains; they're different writers, never mind the former head of Common Cause, who is John W. Gardner!) just happened to pick on two passages from early Harlan Ellison as examples of bad writing.
I can't remember which Gardner book it was, probably _The Art of Fiction_ or _On Becoming a Novelist_, and offhand I can't remember which Ellison book he selected for criticism (I can look 'em both up fairly easily, if anyone's interested -- in fact, folks can probably flip through both books and find the passage quickly enough), but that had to hurt.
Hey, has anyone seen a copy of that vol. 10 issue of "Animal Fair" magazine that was supposed to have "Furry Muse" stories by writers about their pets, including Harlan and Ahbhu? Shortly after it was heralded on this board weeks ago, I went to my local Borders but vol. 9 was still on the rack. I've been back several times and still not seen the new issue. Did I miss it somehow? How often does it come out?
Barney touched on this and I want to expand on the notion so bear with me and do not take anything personal, but PLEASE PLEASE do not say "more power to him" in regards to moonlighter (or, whoever the hell he/she is) publishing this crappy book "Shivers". True, I haven't read the book, but if the excerpt is any indication I don't have to. THIS BOOK SHOULD NOT BE PUBLISHED. And if it's a vanity publishing press, fine, more power to him. If he wants to distribute that crap instead of using that money to give to a homeless person or NASA or the Salvation Army or KICK or Guys with Short Peepees then that's his business. It's his money, he can burn it if he wants.
But, and this is a big BUT, to say "more power to him" if this waste of paper gets published by ANY publishing house and they paid him for this scab, then it demeans those of us who sweat over each word and try to produce something that is not at the fifth-grade level and who hope to have something published someday. Yes, I am offended that this bile might actually get published other than vanity publishing and that YOU GUYS aren't any more pissed off about this than if he went to the Middle East and lit a firecracker under Arafat and then shoved pork down Sharon's throat. It is taking away resources from getting your work published and "more power to him" is idly standing by and watching the baby seals get clubbed. This guy should be hunted down and force-fed the writer's Barney mentioned. I don't give a shit if this guy is ten-years old. Fuck 'im. If he's gonna post that crap on there so the whole fuckin' world and God can see it, then he deserves the ire and scorn that is bestowed upon him. You let others see your best work, goddammit. And if that's his best work, then I'm back to my first critical opinion: Fuck 'im. And if that shit gets published then we may as well just fuckin' bend over and let the non-writing, simile-sucking, metaphor-mangling, cliche-cunts fuck us up the ass. And no, I haven't checked the keyboard layout so "cliche" is gonna stay like that.
And Todd, "The Prince of Darkness" sucked, so fuck you.
And for those imparting symobolism and aura-reflecting and deep meaning into David Lynch's pseudo-masterpiece "Mulholland Drive", it's like this: The guy had an idea for a series. That fell through. He took what he had and put a fucking end on it. End of story. And the lesbian scenes? It was hot action by two fine looking women who wanted to fuck. And I was fuckin' turned on. I had to have a towel in the theater.
Washu,
Oh, I don['t know. The odder people in "Fanalysis" seem to me to be not that far away from slipping into a darker corner of their psyche (hell, the "Xena" fan was seriously kind of creepy). And I do think "Fanalysis" dips a bit into the subject, though it's a much lighter piece. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that it was as dark or weighty as "Xenogenesis."
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph:
I've seen 'Fanalysis', all right, but personally I don't feel it's that similar to Harlan's XENOGENESIS. XENOGENESIS chronicled the more puerile, cruel, petty, malicious side of fans while FANALYSIS seemed more easy-going and benign. Mind you, you don't have to look very far on the AICN chat boards to see the obnoxious workings of putrid minds on display. (One reason why I don't read them.)
Like you, I am very much a fan. Of what? Different things from different sources: literature, comic books, movies, etc. My namesake is from a fairly obscure anime character, but I don't go as far as seizing the personality of that same character. It's more of a kind of nod of admiration, nothing else. However, I do not dress up in wacky cornball outfits and go to various conventions across the country, probably because they would just depress the hell out of me. Ever seen Todd Browning's FREAKS? Remember the scene where the freaks are chanting, "One of us, one of us, one of us"? Then you'll know exactly how I feel about conventions.
Nevertheless, it's great to chat about our hobbies once in a while...as long as we don't start saying 'May the Force be With You' and 'Live Long and Prosper' and 'I'm a Barbie Girl in a Barbie World' and...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
*** Heather *** All in all I'm a pretty inclusive fellow but you will be getting no apology from this quarter.
Heather hiccups despondantly - "I didn't ask for highbrow snottiness."
The first phrase that flashed through my brain was the Bogart line, "you'll take it and you'll like it." Heather, if you want lowbrow just turn on the tube. We're trying to cut down on our lowbrow intake here.
"between some of you lot and the intellectual assholes..."
Intellectual asshole? Moi? You really are too kind. Could I have that stiched on an armband? Put me on the train to that "Camp Concentration" where I can piss away the rest of my days kicking folks around the block who, IF they have a writing style is best likened to attempting prose in a second language. And in that category of fiction [English prose as a second language] may I recommend Joseph Conrad as an excercise in compare and contrast with the notorious Mr. Moonlighting.
My point is some things ought not to be encouraged. He may get better some day but I'm not waiting for that to happen. Nor should you. There are a humptymillion great books out there. Read those.
As to your Bradbury defense, well, that's an exercise that should be gotten over VERY quickly. Life really is very short. I am 42 and hope to absorb another 1100 to 1500 books before I die. That is less than 1/10th of the books I presently own. The weeding process gets tough in the middle game and Machiavellian in the endgame.
Here, I will even point the finger at myself. I may learn to write gooder someday but I will never be able to carry a tune. Not in a bucket. I leave it to the Cookie Coogans [and the chic who fronts the Propellorheads and Tom Waits] of this world. I do not inflict my "singing" on people in public. That guy [Moonlighting] is the writing equivalent of tone deaf. He should be stopped. Or made to get MUCH better REAL fast. Likening him to Stockbridge was a kindness.
I'm NOT saying you have to be a natural. Very few are. I think T.C Boyle might have been. Either that or he has done a very good job of hiding the bodies. Twain and Vonnegut were very very good right at the start but even Twain grew embarrassed of some of his early work. Particularly the mock-journalism and much of the contents of his first collection.
This actually brings us back to our fearless leader. I hope I say this the right way. One of the things that makes Harlan so interesting to me as a writer is just how far he went and just how much he learned. And presumably continues to learn. Harlan HATES it when I unearth some obscure piece he did for rent money in the mid-1950's. At first [and this is because he is so polite to his friends] I really didn't/couldn't understand how much this hurt him but I do now. Those pieces are the things that I think kept him from being ranked with Mailer and Vonnegut and Updike and Bellow. Don't misunderstand me. I think he ranks up there or in there or whatever but my opinion doesn't count. Those pieces are the lingering evidence of the Ellison Problem.
[Don't worry, the skinhead Dannelke will be offering no Ellison final solutions.]
Harlan taught himself to write IN PUBLIC. Not just the storefront window gigs but in just about every sense you can impart to those words. He taught himself short story, novella, essay, screenplay, film crit., lit. crit., spoken word, public lecturing, the ART of the letter and he did it incrementally, shamelessly and anywhere they would pay him for it. They will never forgive him for that. There may be an American Heritage set of the essays of Harlan Ellison and many of the stories from "Gentleman Junkie" on up through "Slippage" will have legs and a healthy afterlife in some collected comprehensive authorized edition promoted by the NY literary establishment someday but I will be really fucking old or dead before that happens or even gets to comittee. They're going to make him wait. Boy howdy will they make him wait. It's a shame because his only crime was succeeding so publicly and not adopting some sort of "Shucks little missy, twarn't nuthin'" attitude.
[You may consider that last paragraph part 1. of a preface to a transcript I hope to post REAL SOON about that Blish question.]
The coda here Heather is this - Real life is harder than school not easier. Applying basic standards of competence is not the same as intellectual snobbery. It's Darwinian but it is fair. Get good or get gone.
- Barney Dannelke
Washu,
Agreed on the Book of the Dead DVD that we both own. Fine commentaries (Campbell's is fun as hell), and if you haven't looked at Campbell's documentary "Fanalysis" (stuck somewhere in special features), it's really worth a look. Shades of "Xenogenesis."
Gotta say though, my favorite part is the TV commercials. They're fairly slick, with quotes from papers and Stephen King, and then at the end have a horrid cable-access-green screen with the five or six theaters in the Detroit area that are carrying the movie. It's so 1983-cheap it made me laugh out loud.
Regards,
Joseph
To share a few thoughts of modern cinema:
JOSEPH: I have the BOOK OF THE DEAD special edition myself. It's a decent buy (the wonderful cover is worth the price alone)although, like many others, I was disappointed by the absence of WITHIN THE WOODS. Mind you, from what I've heard it was pretty...crummy.
LYNN: I have no clue what's wrong with Carpenter these days. He seems to have taken an utterly bizarre, inexplicable 'I don't give a fuck anymore' attitude which is greatly depressing, considering his fabulous films from the past.
PROF. TINGLEBUM: Regarding your essay, I would just like to make a few critical judgements of...pffft...the analysis you made of...mmmff eeep...the character of...
TINGLEBUM!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Ye gods, that was funny.
BTW, as it hasn't seemed to have been reported here yet, I'll go ahead and say it: the HELLBOY movie has been 'officially greenlit', at least according to Harry Knowles over at AICN. Knowles is a personal friend of the director, Guillermo del Toro, so I'll trust him this far. Take it as you will.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
P.S. Most hotly anticipated film? 'Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can...'
Chuck,
Not this time.. not ACTUALLY. I was afraid I had committed a faux pas that could have brought an F-5 down on my head.
It was just a false alarm. Smooth sailing and blue skies..you know how it goes when one predicts a squall, something will happen to make a fool of you. Believe me in this case I'd rather look like a fool for ducking when no one has aimed a blow at my head than to be caught flat footed with the full brunt of the storm in my face.
Storms are beneficial if they aren't too brutal. In this case it was just a lovley darkening brought about by my hand over my eyes.
Thank you so much for asking though Chuck, you're a peach.
Cindy
Jeffrey -- Thanks for the feedback on my West Africa essays. It's always nice to hear somebody actually READ my writing, never mind that he or she got something out of it. I keep meaning to write something about my incredible three-week trip to Estonia and St. Petersburg back in '94, but there's just too much else going on in my life. (Regulars here will notice I haven't been posting much the last couple of weeks.)
Heather -- Glad to hear you got the tapes and enjoyed 'em. I'm sure it's not JUST your tape recorder that was a problem. I recorded the stories in a low-tech studio that's a nonprofit service to blind and elderly housebound listeners -- held together by the largesse of a public radio station, listeners' contributions, and the loving labor of dozens of volunteers -- and then made copy of my duplicate tape on a cheap home boom box, so we're talking pretty low fi here. I'd love to hear what a professionally produced recording of my vocal talents would sound like, but who knows if that'll ever happen...
Jay,
By all accounts, you don't want to see "Woods." Including the accounts of the people who made it.
Anyway, "Within The Woods" was going to be on the "Evil Dead: Book of the Dead" Special Edition released by Anchor Bay last month, but the plans were scuttled in January for some reason:
http://www.mhvf.net/forum/scifihorror/posts/124227088.html
So, you can try to find a 12th-generation video copy, but what's the point? It'll look even worse than it started at. Also, they'll be bootleg videos and VCDs.
Regards,
Joseph
Heather,
Many apologies for not mentioning you in my posting on moonlighter's typings. I have to start taking that Ginko Biloba herb for memory. Of course, I have to remember to BUY it first. As I mentioned before, there were many amateurish mistakes in the writing, which other webderlanders have illustrated quite well. And if you think being published by a vanity press is so impressive, remember that you pay THEM to publish x number of books, and then distribution is up to you. The book I mentioned in connection with SHIVERS; RAINBOW ARC OF FIRE, is incredibly bad. Even makes SHIVERS seem half-way decent. I have put the contents of the book out of my memory, I only remember it was a vague rambling about some guys racing to find an artifact, a sort of RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, in a new agey sort of way. Oh, and it was really, really bad. This is the kind of book to keep around as a doorstop, or if you need to press a flower. It would also keep some tables from wobbling. A vanity press published this stinky literary suppository. They'll publish anything.
Sorry to hear about the job situation. I hope things will pick up soon.
Cindy,
You have a tornado out there? That's what your posting sounded like. Glad you made it through.
Chuck
Just finished reading my Entertainment Weekly Summer Movie Preview issue and the movie I am most anticipating is Road To Perdition starring Tom Hanks and directed by Sam Mendes (I loved American Beauty....fuck you all!).
Of course, I plan on attempting to have fun at Spider-Man and Star Wars Attack Of The Clones and Minority Report, and I'm intrigued by Christopher Nolan's remake of the splendid Insomnia (mainly because of Al Pacino, who always looks like he needs a good nap and Robin Williams playing bad guy....though if you saw the original, you would know that they shouldn't really be showing bad guy for awhile...oh well).
Naturally, being a lover of all things Woody, Hollywood Ending looks like a fun little frolic that I pray will wipe the bad taste of the one (ok maybe second to Alice) Woody movie I didn't like, Curse Of The Jade Scorpion.
But the king of all movies that I am anticipating....ok, after Road To Perdition.....is the wonderfully titled Eight Legged Freaks. Holy shit, men and wimmen, I have seen 2 hilarious and downright creepy trailers for this giant spider movie......I want it now!!!!!
Oh, and Syamalan's Signs looks cool. and. and. and.
OK, I know, as usual, I will be letdown big time as the August breeze begins to chill into September (Maaaaa, I don't want to go to school), but I'm gonna have fun at the theaters this summer.....then, maybe after all the popcorn is picked from my teeth, only then will I begin to look for another job!
-TODD
I'm re-reading "If Chins Could Kill" the autobio of Bruce Campbell. In it he describes the making of the short film prototype for "Evil Dead" called "Within the Woods." Anyone know where i can view or buy this short without shelling out another $40 for an Evil Dead "special" edition DVD? I'm very interested in seeing Raimi's evolution from student filmmaker to pro director.
Jay
Todd~ Hey, I paid money to see Vampires(**) in the theatre, and would have for Ghosts of Mars(**) but it was apparently showing in the revolving screen theatre it came and went so fast. But I did rent it. Great concept that fell utterly flat upon execution. This one looks to be the "necessity is the mother of invention" revival of chivalry in a post-apocalyptic age. Maybe I'm reading too much into the trailer, but then again, I'm so positively green that I didn't get to write that script, who knows? It was London, and the special effects looked magnificent. And I like Matthew McConaughey. And by now you know I saw that trailer opening night at The Scorpion King(***), which I enjoyed, showing that it doesn't take high Shakespearean theatre to keep me entertained. (I also enjoyed Brotherhood of the Wolf(***), which was all over the map.) For $9.00, a good flick just has to keep me interested. Which Training Day didn't. So to each his own.
I'll let you know when I see it, how it fares compared to Vampires or Ghosts of Mars.
L. (All ratings are entirely my own opinion.)
* - Highlander 2 Bad. (The Musketeer)
** - Wait till video, if you must see it.
*** - Worth the popcorn but not the line. (Ice Age)
**** - Wow. (The Mummy, Independence Day, The English Patient)
***** - Lord of the Rings WOW. (Raiders of the Lost Ark)
PS. I've been catching up on all of the Justice Leagues on video. What a great show that is. Hawk Girl is my favorite. "Keep talking like that and you'll be the fastest man alive with a limp."
Hey! I've been lurking a bit and read the post from Steve about finding a good indie bookstore in Los Angeles. I've been in New York for a few months now and would love suggestions on a few good indie bookstores anywhere in the five boroughs. Thanks!
Todd,
You want crazy on the net? How about a page claiming that Mac OS X is a tool of anti-Christian evolutionists (third section):
http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html
God, I love this century.....
Regards,
Joseph
Heather: All right. I'll 'fess up. I was the Prof. There was some time I had left at the office and, curious about the reports of legionnaire's disease here, I checked out "Shivers" and almost immediately sank my molars into my hand to see if what I was reading was fer real. Then again, I've just come down from a two-book Ian McEwan extravaganza over the past week ("Amsterdam" and "Atonement," both of which I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't had the privileged opportunity to pick up the man's books; his prose is so razor-sharp that even the most obtuse reader couldn't possible confuse the genuine article from the dregs of, oh say, Rod McKuen). I was having a bit of fun. I may have been a bit cruel. But if the kid got published, more power to him, even if I'm inclined to side with Berman, et al. on the kid's merits.
Whoa, Frank, you made me do it. You made me laugh my muthufucking ass off by citing Jews For Justice In The Middle East as if it was some straight forward group writing a fair 'book' on the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Goddamn, not only did I laugh my ass off, but I almost laughed my tenderkins off as well.
Whew. Thanks for the laugh.....I can always count on you for finding the most hilarious citings available on the 'net.
-TODD
Hate to say it, Lynn, but the trailer for Reign Of Fire does not leave me with squishy feelings of anticipation. It is apparently impressing a lot of people on the net, and obviously piqued your interest, but aside from an interesting production painting of dragons attacking a city (was it NYC? I can't recall, but I could have sworn that the trailer mentioned London)I found the trailer to be bland as all get go. It reminded me of bad John Carpenter. Not Halloween John Carpenter or The Fog John Carpenter or They Live or Prince Of Darkness (fuck you all, I love this one thanks to the quantum physics and the devil discussions) or even The Thing (fuck you all again) John Carpenter, but more like Vampires or Ghosts Of Mars John Carpenter.
A bunch of people banding together in a future world to fight off impossible power. Wake me when the second feature starts.
-TODD
ALL: Positively Fuh-ascinating article at www.ireadpages.com --
click on "online contents" on the menu to the left, and then scroll down to "Emissaries of Evil." (Would I steer you wrong?)
Informationally, the man
if they show me something more than "pile on the rabbit" glibly lipped bandwagoning.
Now, to your post.
The couple of sentences you mentioned. Hmm..It would never occur to me to write like that. Where is he GETTING that kind of stuff? It reminds me of...of..what I've read in a classroom. There's something that reminds me of a kid in class CRIBBING from something. Hmm..Hard to explain. Using phrases he doesn't understand. Like a french student speaking English. _I_ know. Something to do with language as it is written and language as it is spoken. Does that make sense, P.A.?
Yes, I'm sorry if the lad hurt your ears and bloodied your eyes. Heh. As you ARE a teacher and do this all day long. Thing is, that's not the only piece of his I read. And I'm still not dissecting each sentence I read. I know these people are amateurs.
So, fuck, am I.
I had a friend who complained of another friend's writing. He used to say the guy wrote like a Russian--too long and flowery or summat like that. Is that similar to what this guy is doing?
Thanks for the feedback, P.A.
Heather
OK, am I missing something here? Otherwise, beating up someone over at the Stephen King bulletin board on this bulletin board is so postmodern, I'm getting a nosebleed. Anyway, the kid's got spunk, and the piece is much less wince-inducing than the latest David E. Kelley laughathon on Boston Public. Now there's some bad writing.
On the other hand, I do hate spunk.
Jon
Heather:
OK, I caved in and read the Shivers piece to see if everyone was being mean, or what. I read other people's writing for a living, and it has made me a stickler for certain errors and conventional cliches. Also, on my leisure time, I want to read quality prose, so my tolerance for juvenalia is low in the PM.
Suffice it to say, I thought the piece was bad. Not only are its images trite and stilted, it's not even punctuated correctly. Others have pointed out some really cheesy metaphors and similes, poor constructions and phraseology. I cringe to look at them because they read like (average level) high school prose.
But, so as to offset the anticipated epithet "intellectual asshole" I will give some quick examples that really bugged me:
"The car was traveling at a high rate of speed and Billy dove to one side of the roadway to remove himself from it's path. The car flew by as Billy hit the ground, missing him by not more than a few inches."
First off, wordy. "High rate of speed"? "Not more than a few inches"? Surely these are not the most elegant ways to describe the incident. In fact, it's pretty awkward. Also, this passage, like so many others, is rife with incorrectly placed apostrophes, which drives me INSANE. I am grading research papers now and if I see one more incorrectly used apostrophe, I'm gonna start taking hostages.
"He admired it's beauty, it's essence of life. "Death and diamonds. The two things that really do, last forever" he said."
Incorrectly placed comma, missing comma. Not the only ones in the passage either. More bad apostrophes. Not to mention an ending line so corny it would make Orville Reddenbacher cringe.
Even if the story was compelling, which it isn't, I could not get past these kinds of errors. They are distracting and demean the reader. Maybe I'm just an overly critical pedagogue. Screw it, I'm sure I am, but you wanted an *honest* opinion, right? Here's mine: Shame on him for not at least having someone with a grasp of basic punctuation proofread it before he plastered it up on the Web. It's pretty freakin' annoying to be asked to take something seriously when the author couldn't be bothered owning a copy of Strunk & White.
Ask for people's opinions, take what you get. It's more gracious, I find.
Bermanator
My favorite part is "Rants", I love that HE just lets it all hang out, writes what he means, and his "Fuck you if you can't take a Joke" attitude. I believe that he means what he says. I admire that. Wish more people felt the same. Less Bull, more Bite. Bravo!
Love the website, and the Chat room is one of the most interesting, and original, that I have ever been in. No trivia games, no age/sex checks, no IM's asking if my picture is on the web. (Actually, there's a site out there dealing with...no, never mind.)
I'm not entirely sure how I ended up in here, but I sure am glad I did. The last time I tried to look up Harlan's web site, my computer crashed. For humane reasons, I had it put down. I'm still not entirely sure it was a coincidence.
But until Them (and if You are Them, then you know who Them is) catches back up to me, I will risk the pain of having to euthanize another trusted computer, and I'LL BE BACK!
David Loftus: I got your tapes. Thank you for sending them. I had some trouble with the sound on a few pieces--perhaps it's just my tape player--but overall..
you have an amazing voice. Amazing. Not at all what I expected, for one thing--you sound YOUNGER than your posts. Heh. You should do this professionally, if you aren't doing it (enough--I realize you do SOME) already.
I loved the Sherlock Holmes voice. And the A.A. Milne was very sweet. I can still SEE the Bradbury stories. Heh. You changed your cadence significantly between the different kinds of stories. I enjoyed that.
Thank you.
Heather
I hope the brief basic writing analysis I gave you constitutes more than a "This guy sucks" because he doesn't. If he's 28 and been writing for years, I'd say that's trouble. Otherwise its the start of a long, exciting road that requires a lot more reading and writing.
I asked for some comments on what made this gentleman's work good or bad. (And I appreciate the input of those who offered me some tangible feedback.) I didn't ask for highbrow snottiness.
I don't even KNOW this guy. I read some of his stuff. I was, MOST OF ALL, impressed by his stick-to-it-tiveness. Some of what I read, I found interesting; some of what I read, I didn't find to my liking. I wanted to find out why; as I once read Ray Bradbury suggesting to read the good AND the bad, the fine AND the rough, to understand what was or wasn't being done.
I would have expected more than simply, "Oh, I don't like it."
I HEARD that already. If you're so finely tuned of intellect--those of you with so little to say--tell me WHY you don't like it. 'Course. I suppose that might require some of you breaking out of your topical ruts, hmm? Clearly, sometimes, I don't see a whole lot of difference between some of you lot and the intellectual assholes I've spent my life steering clear of. There's obviously a big difference between the things Harlan Ellison writes about and the people who gravitate to his writing.
Heather
Dear Lord...
Funny as that was, it was NOT me under a pseudonym and Rick can prove it.
Funny...poor guy.
Jay
"Shivers: A Critical Examination"
by Professor Limpid Tinglebum
Dean of Humanities
Peoria Community College
Moonlighter, a young writer who is reportedly "a big Bruce Willis fan," has with his latest novel, "Shivers," merged Bulwer-Lytton at his peak with the common detective story of the 1940s. Witness his opening first paragraph in which he personifies "a wail of sirens." The wail, which is a singular object, is growing closer. Moonlighter then singles out the inability of his protagonist, Billy, to distinguish between objects, specifically a "wail," "sirens" and "they." In this magical personification of a wail into an unexpected "they," Moonlighter gives the illusion that he is an amateur scribe. But then this is the main thrust of "Shivers." Have not we all in our own respective ways become unable to differentiate between a wail, sirens, and in that obfuscation, suddenly called whatever the sam hill it is merely a "they?" In his stunning attempt to transform the English language into an anarchic mess, Moonlighter has hit upon a formula that he maintains throughout 357 pages.
Consider Mr. Moonlighter's other metaphors. In the "Shivers" universe, cars "flip violently into a nearby building," thus suggesting a world in which vehicles turn over of their own accord. Police cars "barrel into the intersection," thereby colliding somehow while transporting itself to the intersection as if it were a barrel. But Mr. Moonlighter doesn't just stop there, for this spinning police car, defying all physical laws of the universe, approaches "from the south." This is not the stuff of sloppy prose, but a chronicle of a world in which objects do not travel in the manner that we are accustomed to. Mr. Moonlighter seems to be suggesting that we should watch our eyes as we cross an intersection. Before we know it, the world itself will go crazy or "shiver," as the title suggests.
Faisal, try rereading my modest proposal and recall what Swift's modest proposal actually "advocated." I have no more trust of government than most (having been a somewhat more than trivial gummint official myself)--but I've seen the alternative, too, and it's worse.
Aside: In case y'all hadn't caught on, that is a completely fake e-mail address. I figure that the guy who essentially invented commercial spam deserves to get any spam resulting from putting that address out. Rick and Heather know how to contact me. So, for that matter, does Belinda (Hi, Belinda! Do they still have you monitoring this board?). Harlan does, too, but asking Harlan how to contact one of his lawyers may not be the best way to brighten your day ;-)
Surprised that no one mentioned this so far (Then again, I only
noticed it as a link at the bottom of a different page that I
happened to be reading).
Reginald Rose, 'Twelve Angry Men' author, dead
http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/22/obit.rose.ap/index.html
DAVID LOFTUS: I never got the chance to thank you for pointing me to your essays on visiting West Africa. The section on the high death rate seemed timely when I read it, since my girlfriend had recently remarked on the death of a child in the village. Like the volunteer you mentioned in Guinea-Bissau, she's frustrated by how little difference she feels she can make. Her lack of command of the language is part of it (she had to learn 3 languages: French (for her reports to the govt), Wolof (the most commonly understood throughout the country) and Sereer (her village) -- she refers to herself as tri-unlingual; Still, the toughest part is acceptance that solidly entrenched notions are not going to evaporate overnight. In training, she was told that she would have to repeat and demonstrate her teachings many times before people would take her seriously. A little of that is due to being a woman in a patriarchal society, but most of it is due to the fact that, in their culture, it would be considered impolite to show disagreement, so they keep silent and continue to believe what they will. They are certainly *not* stupid, and their memories are flawless (one of the characteristics that tend to decrease in cultures where one has devices to record things for later reference), but cultural mores and superstition are hard to overcome. (Although, let's face it, deeply-held beliefs aren't changed quickly in any culture, including our own. Nevertheless, it's frustrating to hear evil spirits, rather than a dead animal in the well, blamed for illness). "...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
The Peace Corps aphorism you mentioned at one point -- "...volunteers return from South America more politically aware, they return from Asia more spiritually aware, and the return from Africa laughing" -- seems particularly apropos. Then again, she's had that general attitude for as long as I've known her. She's had plenty of nasty things happen in her life, usually in bunches, so she adopted that outlook on the world long ago.
Maybe that's why she's well-suited to Peace Corps; I dunno.
"The toughest job you'll ever love" seems to pretty much hit the
nail on the head.
If I've calculated correctly, the 27th'll mark the halfway point
of her time in West Africa. Can't wait 'til I visit!
RICK: The archive stops at March 9th, but the earliest current
entry on the board is March 30th. Is there any way to view
messages posted between these two dates?
- Jeph
Anybody else seen the trailer for "Reign Of Fire"? Hollywood has disappointed me so many times, I can't help but hope this one doesn't suck. It's directed by Rob Bowman, of X Files fame.
L.
And a movie to reall look forward to, from a Reuters news story on the Disney/Pixar relationship:
"In the 2004 holiday season, audiences will see "The Incredibles," an action-adventure comedy from director Brad Bird ("The Iron Giant"). It centers on a family of superheroes who save the world while living a quiet suburban life."
Yay! A new Brad Bird movie!
RE: Moonlighter's Novel can be found at: http://bbs.simonsays.com/bbdocs/Forum4/HTML/009118.html
(Search for "Excerpt from my forthcoming novel, Shivers.")
I resisted reading this at first, but Barney's post made my teeth hurt at the mere thought, so of course, I had to know more. Let me say this through my aching incisors: I'm glad the guy is getting published. I really am. I won't even state the obvious about the kind of market these editors must have to select from.
I'm gonna go chew on some aluminum foil now.
L.
Jim,
Re: "explanations" for a Lynch movie.
Jackson Pollock said: "When I am in my painting I'm not aware of what I am doing."
I think David Lynch may be the first director to capitalize on this philosophy in the commercial market SUCCESSFULLY. And it's the only way to deal with him as a viewer. It's c'oitenly a vent'ia that woiks fa ME.
Well, I finally went to look at this writer that's so terrible. In all honesty I thought y'all were probably being a mite bit harsh on some poor kid.
I can admit when I'm wrong.
My disclaimer is, of course, that I can probably write no better. However, it does seem to me that the writer has a huge problem with matching things up. For example, at first he says he could hear sirens. Then later, he tilts his head and is sure there are more than one -- eh? Or how about, there are two cars, but when talking about both of them he says "its"? Ah, well...
The sentence that cracked me up was: "The glare from the lights blinded Billy momentarily, but then the blue strobes punched their way through the glare and his eyes readjusted to the night."
So, uh... the blue part of a cops light helps eyes to readjust to night-vision? Huh. I'll have to try that one.
Again - I'm probably not one to criticize others, but just thought I'd jump on the bandwagon for a moment. *hee*
--Zoë Rose
*** Heather *** I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here BUT what he is doing wrong is writing REALLY BAD PROSE. Doesn't matter where he's going with it. Doesn't matter if he is a nice guy or picks up litter in his neighborhood or builds dog houses for homeless puppies or cures AIDS. That one little sample is just screamingly bad writing. Harold Robbins and the comittee that wrote "Naked Came the Stranger" PHONE IN better work.
Do not take my word for it. Pick up a book by Robertson Davies or T.C. Boyle or John Updike [who doesn't float my boat but knows his way around a sentence] or Joyce or Lafferty or Twain or Westlake or Tiptree or Neruda or Naipaul or LeGuin or Ellroy or Sturgeon or Collier or DeHaven or DeLillo or... AND read any single page of any work from any of these folks and then go back and read that sample. REPEAT this process until you are unable to read that sample without developing a facial tic. You will have done yourself a favor.
If after trying this experiment or variations of it for a week you are unable to see why we are beating this person like a
red-headed stepchild I would strongly suggest you send me all of your rare 1st editions and take up gardening or synchronized swimming. In other words "use your time wisely" like they taught us in school.
Coda: After my initial post I started to wonder if this was a prank. It's the sort of sample that is so consistant I started to wonder if it was King or some protege was having everybody on. That one sample breaks almost every single suggestion King makes in "On Writing" on what not to do. It's painful.
And that should have read "this occurred," but somehow it came out "they occurred." But on second thought, perhaps they did occur after all.
JOINING THE MULHOLLAND DRIVE MUFF DIVE -- SPOILERS AHEAD
No pun intended about the lesbian sex scenes, but since you brought it up, I saw it partly as a wry retelling of the Narcissus legend. Consider that they occurred shortly before the last scene of the movie in which Rita has transmogrified into Camilla (I think) and, almost immediately afterwards, we see the sad potent imagery of Betty masturbating, tears streaming down her face. There are a few other things that seem to hint at the state of the movie, which seems to exist somewhere between a dream and a John Bunyan allegory as applied to Hollywood and cultural decadence. In roughly around the first ten minutes of the film, up until the point where night becomes day (with day involving Betty's discovery of Rita), there is always some kind of major spotlight in the background shining directly into the camera. There is a distinct 1950s fixation upon the color pink shortly after the scene at Pink's hot dog stand. And then we see pink in nearly every shot, a color that could be expressing Betty's innocence shortly before she sheds her pink garbs and kisses her dreamlike idolization of herself as movie star in the form of Betty. The confirmation of twins is seen in the landlady Coco, a name that can be easily bifurcated and who, in warning Rita of the presence of Betty in her apartment (representing her mind?) almost appears as a matronly conscience.
MULHOLLAND DRIVE:
I have nothing to add to the theories about the film's "real meaning" because I haven't thought about it yet. I prefer, for now, to let the images and sounds of the film wash over me and leave me both confused and impressed.
However, I couldn't help but think that if you really wanted your head to explode, you should watch a double feature of Mulholland Drive and Last Year at Marienbad.
Who needs drugs when we have movies like these to provide true mind-alterind experiences?
Film Comment had the best take on, Muholland Drive. Check it out.
Remember that the elite in America are overwelmingly pro-Israel--especially the media--so I doubt you will get an acurate picture of the nature of the actual conflict, or it's bloody history.
But spouting off at the mouth with ignorant statements like, "I am pro-Israel, and that's all there is to it" is not a very sane way of dealing with this conflict. "balance" on this subject is unthinkable in this country; especially since the elites are overwelmingly knee-jerk pro-Israel. But I will say that Faisel mentioned some good books.
The organization, Jews For Justice In The Middle East has just published a book detailing the conflict in very fair terms. You can read the entire book for free, at this websight:
http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/index.html
Other interesting essay's about the current conflict:
http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/said_april18.cfm
http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/chomskyapril9.cfm
Little Washu, David Lynch says that a movie is a piece of art, like a painting, that should not be broken up into easy to jump to chapters. Thus, his movies on DVD do not feature chapter stops. I don't know when he started doing this, but in The Straight Story DVD, he has a quick blurb on the inside cover that states "I know that most DVDs have chapter stops. It is my opinion that a film is not like a book - it should not be broken up. It is a continuum and should be seen as such. Thank you for your understanding."
-TODD
"I found David Lynch's clues sometimes helpful and sometimes infuriatingly confusing."
Welcome to the club, Bermanator. Ever read LYNCH ON LYNCH? Endless chapters of fascinating, insightful and yet fundamentally vague conversation with David himself.
Recently purchased MULHOLLAND DRIVE on DVD, and I noticed something odd. There was no chapter/scene option. This is peculiar, as even the most bare-bones DVD had such an option available. Did David Lynch have something to do with this? Did he believe that such an easy way of leaping over a 'dream' like MULHOLLAND DRIVE unfair? Hmmmm.
>I've been wondering--how much does it cost per month to host this site? <
does kilaminjaro corp and HERC kick in to cover costs? Seems fair.
Lynn, et al: Let me just say that the knife that nearly sliced my finger off on Thanksgiving WAS maniacal cutlery. That thing was like Stormbringer, man, it was out for blood. So go easy on this guy; maybe he's had a bad parsley-chopping experience.
MILD MULHOLLAND DRIVE SPOILERS...I just wouldn't want to ruin the utter confusion for any of you...
Matthew Davis, Jim, Rich, and all others I have sucked into my Mulholland Drive obsession: I read the links to the Guardian. I found David Lynch's clues sometimes helpful and sometimes infuriatingly confusing. I also read the contest winners AND the Ebert review AND the salon.com review and so far, NO ONE has offered my theory besides me. Everyone seems to think that the last 1/3 of the movie was "real". Not sure why, as the whole thing seems to go from dream-like to nightmarish with nothing real except that gunshot at the end. I like the Homeless Person as God and Cowboy as the Devil. That works. Cool.
Thanks, guys,
Bermanator
Rick, have you done any dabbling in SAS at all? Is Connecticut, most likely Hartford, out of your preferred areas? I have a friend out there who used to consult for me on the job that is dumping me this Friday (Whoo Hooooo, time to get all those chores done and change my life WHILE GETTING PAID FOR IT) and he has worked for a number of the top consulting companies out there. His current company has placed him at Bayer, maker of drugs (perks anyone?), a few months ago and I could see if they are looking for more programmers.
He said they are big on SAS, but I'm sure other languages are also appreciated.
-TODD
JAY: Oh man, you are bringing back some memories. I was one of the many kids who took the Hershey chocolate factory tour in the early 70's, and damned if I can't flash back to the smells at a moment's notice. *sigh* To go back to the days when chocolate was a major food group...
RICK: I've been wondering--how much does it cost per month to host this site? Would you accept donations from Webderlanders towards its upkeep?
Steve,
The LA Webderlanders swear by Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks. Here's their address:
13563 Ventura Boulevard
Sherman Oaks, California 91423
818.986.6963 | 818.341.7354fax
Web address is www.readsf.com.
Rick,
Sorry, no dice on my company. However, our IT head told me he'd keep an ear to the ground for you.
Regards,
Joseph
I forgot this (mis)translation: Slackness Ape (Soft Monkey)
RE OUR FRIEND MOONLIGHTER AND THE EXCERPT FROM HIS NOVEL "SHIVERS":
Look, I'm not trying to ridicule the guy or say his work is the worst thing to come down the pike since
Eric Von Lustbader. Nor am I holding up MY writing as a sterling exemplar of lucid prose. If he's bagged a book deal, hey, I honestly wish him well.
But that doesn't change my opinion. That excerpt was poorly written, and the notion that an actual, non-Vanity publishing house may print and distribute the novel it came from is shocking in the extreme. Have editorial standards completely gone to Hell?
************WARNING! MORE MULHOLLAND DRIVE SPOILERS AHEAD! AVERT YOUR EYES, LEST YOU BURST INTO FLAMES! AYIEEEEE!!************
PAB: Yeah, the jealousy scenes were a little over-the-top; maybe they WERE products of Diane's overheated imagination, after all. But that still doesn't mean they couldn't have been based on ACTUAL EVENTS, restaged to play up Camilla's duplicity. I dunno. My gut tells me that the final 1/3 is real (more or less), though your theory that the whole furshlugginer thing is the dream of an obsessed stalker seems valid as well.
As for the homeless guy and the Cowboy...who the Hell knows? God and the Devil? Sounds good to me. I'm more interested in the singer at the theatre--if Diane really did kill herself at the end, then were the last frames ("Silencio") images from her dying brain? Or did the singer actually exist? Mysteries upon mysteries, and I'm not really equipped to parse them further. I only saw the film once several months ago, though I plan to buy the DVD at the first opportunity.
Whether Lynch was clear on ANY of this when he wrote the movie, well, that really is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Let's review the options:
1) There's an explanation to the film, and it's this: The first 2/3rds of the film are Diane's dream, the final 1/3 reality (more or less).
2) There's another explanation: The ENTIRE film is Diane's dream.
3) There's ANOTHER possible explanation that we haven't even considered yet. What it is, I don't know, but it's as good as the others.
4) There IS no explanation for the movie. Lynch had no underlying structure in mind when he wrote it, and was just boogying from one demented plotline to the next with no rhyme or reason.
If #4 is true, it begs the question: Does it really matter? Can't a work of art contain meanings that the artist wasn't even aware of when s/he was creating it? Maybe Lynch is figuring out what happened in MULHOLLAND DRIVE just like the rest of us. Even though I'm a control freak, I kind of like the idea that a piece of art can mystify its creator, and transcend its mundane origins to become something truly ineffable. That gives me hope.
(One last note: Were the lesbian sex scenes Lynch's commentary on how Hollywood titillates the movie audience? Partly satirical or not, they worked for me, and I'm not even INTO lesbian sex scenes...)
****END SPOILERS! YOU MAY RETURN TO YOUR HUMDRUM LIVES OF QUIET DESPERATION!*****
Melissa,
Thanks for your good wishes and encouragement, but I think my wife would have an objection to your kissing me.
Not to mention Scott.
*ducks*
Regards,
Joseph
Greetings! I have just moved to L.A. and am looking for a good indie book store. I know there must be a few that are large like a chain location, but are free from the corporate BS. Any suggestions would be great. I trust Ellison readers to know what's what. STEVE
Rick,
Strangely, my company does use AS/400. I'll contact our IT people and see if possibly they're looking for someone.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph:
Good for you! I was so happy when Scotty quit, even more pleased at his remaining that way. It is one of the best decisions a person can make, and here's wishing you succeed. if you're going cold turkey, apparently that's the best means, at least according to our family physician.
I just love kissing a man who doesn't taste like an ashtray.
Love to all, Melissa
Lynn!!
Could I get you to go to this address and get a copy of the sample newsletter:
http://www.hellnotes.com
I was just idling by there, picking up some info and subscribed to the newsletter. David B. Silva, the editor, replied immediately and sent me a newsletter.
There is a blurb in it for Harlan and KICK right near the top.
Being the ass that I am (and you may come to love that feature) I told David BRIEFLY, VAGUELY about the chapbook. I mentioned royalties; I mentioned your sponsor idea; I said I was looking for Ellisonites--devotees of Harlan.
He asked me to send him more details. He said he'd be willing to consider putting a "calls for writers" in this newsletter.
Can you contact him, pleasest? Thank you.
His email is:
"David B. Silva" email:dbsilva@shasta.com
and what he said is this:
"Give me as much information as you can on the chapbook and we'll run something in the newsletter. That's the quickest way to reach lots of potential writers."
So you now know everything I know.
Heather
Thanks for the feedback on my procrastination/block/laziness...
I spent the weekend with my boy and fiance. We went to Hershey's Chocolate World where they introduced their new 3D interactive "Sweet, Sweet World of Chocolate" exhibit. The video host was the guy who now presides over "To Tell the Truth" and he had more syrup in his veins than in the entire town of Hershey. It oozed from his pores. As luck fared, the 150 of us stuck in the "Ready Room" of this exhibit only had to put up with him for 15 minutes before being led into a theater and shown this AMAZING show complete with huge yellow 3D glasses, bubble-makers, wind machines, live actors, artificial snow and mylar streamers. The on-screen show was wonderful and only a little cheesy. My 7 year old loved it.
There has also been a "chocolate factory tour" ride in the facility (not the real factory) that has evolved over the past 30 years or so, with the same cars giving an animatronic tour and story of how chocolate is made, showing the machines (conchers, pasters, packagers, even an oven with hot air vents) that make us fat and happy.
Then we went to a comic and toy store. All in all a relaxing day. I came home, put the boy to bed and wrote...
...about 300 words.
But its better. The words are there, muddled and out of order somewhere in my brainpan. Thanks for the assist.
Jay
JUST ON THE OFF CHANCE someone here has their ear to the proper area of ground, I'm looking for a job. My work contract is up 4/30 and instead of renewing it my company is going to probably offer me a full-time job...in Atlanta. For less money, of course. So I'm looking for alternatives - and I figure as my ability to cough up bucks for site hosting may depend on this you may have a vested interest in checking about for me.
I'm an AS/400 programmer with 15 years of experience, working in ILE/RPG, SQL, CL, and a smattering of other stuff like C and Cobol. Preference is for consulting contracts but if there is a good job I'm all ears. Would like to find a job in Chicago, LA, New York, or maybe even Washington D.C.
That Dare-I-Say-It-Devil. Mmmmmmm. Nothing like red-hot leather to make a girl feel ever so swoooooooney. Simply Divine. And that Ben A-Ffleck on my ass. Oh, mercy. I'm having a hot flash. He can't act, but he can look good and that gets my vote. He can change my lanes any day. Can't wait to see that 'Devil extend his billy-club. Ooooohhhhh. Slap me silly and give me twenty across the cheeks. I'm not saying Daredevil's gay, I'm just saying he looks like rough trade to me.
(my apologies to Kids in the Hall; specifically Scott "Buddy Cole" Thompson)
Barney: Guy Stockbridge was a real person? I'd always assumed that was a house-name. The Spider was loony, though -- the only thing I ever read that resembled it was Bob Burden's Flaming Carrot. And I mean all of that as high praise. Because now we must all fight and die like famous heroes for a world that considers us, well, a little goofy. But it is good to be brave, to use detectiveness, to fight -- and to win!
When in doubt, whack with a two-by-four!
Jon
Melissa,
What's weird is that I do have a bit of nausea and headache today - probably due to cutting down on smoking on my way to quitting, though.
Regards,
Joseph
Very interesting show on the History Channel featuring Robert Bloch and other futurists discussing the "future" predictions of the last hundred years, from the ridiculous claims of advertisers and industry to the prophetic works of Verne and Wells. Quite good if you have a chance to watch. Check your local listings.
Hey all-
Heather- No army brat here, thankee... my parents were happy protesters in the '60s and dedicated students at Antioch College. When I first mentioned joining the JROTC in high school... heh. Well, let's just say it wasn't the path they sought for their little girl. In any case... it appears Harlan attracts all kinds, so why not us "hoo-ah" types too, eh? Thanks for the welcome.
--Zoë Rose
ps - Heather, I assume you meant 'civilian' and not 'non-civilian'? That threw me. *grin*
Heather,
I have my hands full at the moment but by tonight I'll send you more of the screenplay. Hope you're enjoying it.
Cindy
I like this bit:
"Send blame out of your life. There are no justified resentments."
Later gators
Joseph:
Well, we'll see. Scotty just purchased his Joseph Finn Pale Hose Voodoo Doll (doubles as an air freshener with the clean scent of pine) at K-Mart for $4.99. So if you feel the painful onset of a pimple, or a slight angst as you go about your busy day, you'll know the end to be near.
Have Fun, Melissa
I've got a headache. Gee. Wonder why. This job situ went for a crap and didn't come back. Glad I positioned it this way--I just sorta forgot about it for the weekend. Good thing I did. Will be back job-hunting after this missive.
Cindy: I got your cut and paste email. I tried to email you at the other addy you gave me but it bounced. Will contact you, in some way, when I need more pages of the screenplay.
Zoe: What is this? Harlan attracts nothing but army brats or summat? Am I the only non-civilian here.. or what? *laugh* Welcome to the crew. Hope you get what you need.
Anyone: What's this about Cyberdreams going belly-up? THIS I did not know. Is that how Harlan got screwed, to some extent, with this bunch? Are there no legit businesses out there?
(And not that I was planning to BUY a CD--don't have a computer; all I have is a ellimouse pad. Heh. But I had the same impression. I'd thought sales outside the U.S. were forbidden. Glad you helped cleared that up, Melissa/Bag-o-Scott.)
I also read, that Neil Gaiman had some books at Dreamhaven where the owners were selling said books at an amazingly high price. Neil commented that he doesn't GET any of that. How does this royalty thing work? I thought writers got a percentage of the total sales. Are you saying that Neil would only get, oh, $5 for every book sold, whether Dreamhaven (I think it was) gets $15 or $100? What a rip.
Also, can I invest in Edgeworks Abbey? I figure whether I'm sending money for KICK or money to get Harlan published, it's all the same stick of glue. I've never found a company I really wanted to invest in. I want a product I believe in. I believe in Ellison--old fart or not. Heh.
Lynn: Yes, that's where I read the writer's block reply. At Gaiman's site. I was there the other day.
Lori sent me an email newsletter of her free-expressions.com site. In it, one of her writing trainers, Elizabeth Lyon said:
'It takes a lot to stun me, but I was nothing less than stunned when I read an obituary for the prolific Isaac Asimov where he said, and I paraphrase: "I've never had an idea for a story
that I didn't write about."'
Jay, THERE'S some food for thought.
As for moonlighter, if you go to the search function at that site at:
http://bbs.simonsays.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=intro&default=4
(I think that will get you there) and pump in a user name search for this guy, you will see he's posted quite a number of pieces. This might give you a better view of the guy.
My take, presently is, be he using a vanity press (which I automatically imagined, as he's a young fellow) or not, he's seemed to keep at it. Writing, that is. I find THAT impressive.
But go back to my previous questions here, Jay. What's he doing wrong (as far as the GENRE is concerned.)
Thanks.
and finally....
That other job was a teeny weeny bit of bullshit. The PetroCanada on Portage is only looking for a part-time person--30 hours a week. At less than what I was making at the cafeteria. (The FIRST PetroCanada position was offering MORE. Hmm..) I can't afford that. So. Back to the damn job-hunting drawing board. Least I've got money from the cafeteria job (and a little from this short but sweet one. Hmm.. Don't dat figure.) I swear if I was to say I'm not interested in being a writer, I'd stop having these stupid little adventures. Since I got to Manitoba, my life has been one big Alice in Wonderland, I tell ya.
With no real signs of letting UP, it appears. Argh.
Heather -
I think Lynn illustrated the main problem very well. But let's step further with the example...
"Sirens sliced at the air like a maniacal butcher knife."
The first part, without the similie:
"Sirens sliced at the air."
AT? Sirens sliced the air? Better, but I still have trouble with sirens SLICING things, which forces the similie:
"...like a maniacal butcher knife."
Lynn said it perfectly. I hope I never cross paths with homicidal cutlery.
The same can be said of most sentences in the excerpt. Now, I don't claim to be the next (insert favorite novelist here) but I graded and edited more developed material in Writing Lab by non-writers. Its not HORRIBLE. It reads more like inexperienced, undisciplined prose from a youngster.
Examine the last, long paragraph, Heather. Pretend you're the author and your editor has instructed you to cut 1/2 of it. Do NOT pretend you are Harlan Ellison and tell him to take a leap onto a pointed stick. Try to do this without losing the "spirit" of the paragraph. I'm sure you could. So extraneous words, long paragraphs, inappropriate simlies, awkward structure, unclear images, and poor pacing. Beyond that, it's great.
Melissa,
Trying to catch up to me, eh? Good luck! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn: I've sent you another email about Webderland Park, so that you're informed. I had my signals crossed on the weekend, and didn't explain the situation properly. I hope this one clears matters up.
Procrastination? Never heard of it. Scotty and I have three children; creatures who demand all, and would wait for nothing. Any who doubt this, please consult Jay or Cindy or Rich to confirm this phenomena.
I would love the ability to have a couple hours required to be able to put something off...
Love to all, Melissa
Now, as we're bashing one poor guy, I ask myself is it because he's so, um, raw, or because he allegedly landed a book deal?
Those words still haunt me. Perhaps that is why the deal was made?
Also, Here is a picture supposedly of Daredevil's movie costume. More like Ben Affleck leaving a fetish club...
http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/020419.htm
Since I got some of you people's attention as to this moonlighter dude, can you explain to me what is WRONG with his stuff?
About a year ago, I visited that forum. This guy was writing a lot of little bits for the kids there to read. He wrote quite a lot of stuff and (whether I have an opinion or not) I'm glad to hear he followed through on his plan to create a novel and is getting it published (as of his April 18th comment). That, in itself, is an accomplishment.
I read his stuff, back then, and as I didn't (and probably STILL don't) know a whole lot about the genre, my comments to him on his work were that the ideas never seemed too original. I grant you, he was using his own stylings but I never read a piece that didn't remind me of something I'd come across in my reading or movie watching career.
That aside--and he explained he was 'practicing' sometimes with the pieces he put on view--we weren't getting the whole story, sometimes only vignettes--one of my comments to him, at the time was, his use of blood and gore seemed to always move past the point of impact. He'd MADE his point, in one story, where a madman friend caused great pain to his friend on a train.
But for my (albeit limited) genre views, he shoulda stopped. I guess it sort of reminds me of what Harlan mentioned about the gross out/fear/surprise factor of that "Omen" movie. It's like, 'you've creeped me out, you can stop now.'
Is THAT one impression you get of whatever you may have read of this guy? Or..what else is it that you had problems with? I'm just trying to look at someone's work--that I know to some extent--and figure out what's the matter with it (or.. if it IS good, why is it good.)
His descriptions are good. But sometimes--as I mentioned to him--it felt like all he was DOING was describing something. The action was predictable and...hmm...
Any comments, to my comments here?
As a thematic followup to moonlighter's bit - you guys have GOT to read this (my fellow mac users especially) (If you can stomach the logic, it should have liquids spurting out your nose.):
http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html
THIS is tortured logic.
"Sirens sliced at the air like a maniacal butcher knife."
Wow, slicing *at* the air and missing? And a maniacal butcher knife, as opposed to a calm, rational butcher knife?
Let me run right out and read the rest of this masterpiece.
L.
I tried to read the excerpt from that moonlighter guy, and couldn't get past the first paragraph because that scene from Holy Grail started running in my head . . . I'm sure y'all know the one: the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
---Peter
PAB,
I agree with your "Mulholland Drive" theory. It's been awhile since I've seen it and I have no earthly desire to stop each frame (or scene) and analyze it as that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (sorry, Joseph, but I'm telling you, that guy's demented) and defeats the purpose of watching the "moving image". Taken as a whole, that's my motto.
I must admit, PAB, that I saw the "Mulholland Drive" with a friend and he was very upset with the movie. I "got it" (per your theory), but felt it was a bit convoluted and a little too "arty" for art's sake. Seeing as how it was supposed to be a mini-series, I was a little more forgiving of the loose-ends, but overall felt that it just didn't work. However, the film wouldn't get out of my mind and the more I remembered some scenes the more I felt the movie did work (loose ends and all) and I must admit that my initial reaction of "Humph. Big deal." became "Hmmmmm" there's something to this thing.
My friend, on the other hand, thought about the movie for about 3-5 days afterwards and kept bugging me with his theories on the movie. He even had one for the "homeless man", but I can't remember what it was at this point. Anyway, a long post about this movie and all I really wanted to say was that I agree with you, Berman. (and Jim Davis; your sentiments on watching the film are almost exactly my sentiments---and I paid no more particular attention to the lesbian scenes as opposed to any other scenes. Maybe. Ok, maybe I paid more attention during those scenes than others, but hey...whattya want from me. I'm a guy.)
Heather,
Harry Crews was the guy that would spend three hours in a room, desk facing the wall, and force himself to do nothing but sit in front of the typewriter. He would become so bored that eventually he would start writing just to be doing something.
And speaking of Stephen King (and not at all of that failed writer, moonlighter; published or not), I just finished "Everything's Evntual" and must say it runs quite the gamut of stylings. Very uneven piece of work. I think that "The Man in the Black Suit" (the O. Henry award winner) and "All That You Love Will Be Carried Away" are the best ones in the book. All the others seem to me to be mediocre at best. (ok, maybe "Lunch at the Gotham Cafe" is above mediocre, with it's unreliable narrator, but that's it. I'm telling you. Trust me on this one.)
Oooohfah, I just read that Moonlighter excerpt. Gotta agree with everyone here who has discerned that the writer is either lying or going the vanity press route. "Both cars were totally destroyed." Were they totalled? Were they destroyed? Damn, these suckers were TOTALLY destroyed! That's some friggin' destruction going on there. Mygawd, this guy is the next Stephen King!!!!
-TODD
Heather: Regarding "writers" online, I hate to admit this horrifying fact in an open and esteemed forum such as this, but I frequent various chat communities. I typically target rooms that are related to writing, and after about 6 years of this, I've discovered that 98% of the people ONLINE who say they're having a book published (or that they HAD a book published) have gone the vanity route, i.e., they're wanna-be writers who simply aren't very good.
I realize your comment was regarding an individual you've discovered at a message board, not a chat environment. However, seeing that that too is an online community, I'm not surprised by the comments of those that have perused this individual's work and have said less than stellar things about it.
Now before people jump on my case and take exception to my comments…YES, I know there have been occasions where a vanity published work has gone on to great acclaim. YES, I know there are some savvy writers who can make the vanity publishing system work for them. YES, I know this forum has a higher ratio of "legitimate" or non-vanity published writers than other places on the digital highway. But all of these are exceptions that exist within a massive load of excrement.
(Just came upon Jay's posting of the quotes from that person's alleged book. Shaking? Hell, I'm apoplectic! Thanks, Jay!)
TODD: Who knows. The way Lynch works, it may have been God after all. As for the bum with all the fungus on his face - I seriously believe that he was just another manifestation of the 'evil Id' we've seen before with the character of Bob in TWIN PEAKS.
Nooooooooow, IIIIIIIIIIIIIII, wiiiiiiiiill, gooooooooo, aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnd, feeeeeeeeed, theeeeeeeee, doooooooooooooooooooog....
LW (Benjamin A.A. WInfield)
The Guardian had an “explain Mulholland Drive” competition a few months back.
David Lynch supplied hints and clues which are online here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4337751,00.html
The results are online here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4364386,00.html
Make of it all what you will…
Bermanator, It's been a few months since I've seen Mulholland Drive, and my memory has leaked a few brain cells since then, so I don't remember why .....but.....as I exited the movie and discussed it with the little lady I interpreted the homeless man (who was actually played by a woman) as God.
Why? I don't fucking know. I have to see the movie again. I was not high, I swear. I've never been high. I just recall something in the last scene with this being and the blue box making me say "Hey, that's God, and here's why" and I'll be damned if I remember why.
Go on, mock all you want. It made sense at the time.
-TODD
Jim/Heather -
"Sirens sliced at the air like a maniacal butcher knife."
"A hubcap rattled on the highway as it did a circular dance just at Billy's feet."
I'm shaking.
Jim: Your interpretation seems to be the more accepted one, from what I've read on the 'Net. I understand what you're saying, that in my interpretation, it's hard to care...but the thing is, you don't KNOW what's really going on until the end (or, in my case, not until a day later), so it's too late by then, you've already cared. That's David Lynch for you.
...SPOILERS...
The reason I thought the WHOLE thing was a delusion of Diane's was because the "jealousy" scenes seemed so absurd, so much like a paranoiac's nightmare. Camilla kissing all those people right in front of Diane seemed kind of unlikely, especially at a dinner given by Adam's mother. Camilla was too cartoonishly cruel to be real, just as Rita was too cartoonishly lush and pliant; both were delusions, Hollywoodish delusions at that.
These are all just theories. I wonder if Lynch was clear on these things when he created the movie. I had a Creative Writing prof who said, when you write something that's purposely ambiguous, YOU yourself must know the truth, even if you never reveal it. Not sure if I agree with that or not.
How did you interpret the homeless guy/monster in the alley? I couldn't figure out what that was all about. Maybe it symbolized failure? Who was the Cowboy? Was he supposed to be Death?
Bermanator
Mr Ellison, may or may not be interested in rebutting this article in the current “The London Review of Books” about copyright in the online arena. The author describes the situation regarding copyright pertaining to books and also the scenario as it currently stands regarding music and the internet. However he never satisfactorily brings these two threads together. The LRB often gets healthy response to its articles both in its letters pages, with debate often spreading to other newspapers. And while reading the response of various UK writers, publishers, academics will be par for the course, in this instance I think that Ellison might have a lot to add to the debate. I think that readers of the LRB would be interested to learn of and hear the experiences of a writer fighting for his rights online. Also, for what it’s worth, the contents of the LRB are scrutinised in the other UK broadsheet newspapers, and a good appearance might (just might) lead to further attention for Mr. Ellison and his case outside of the US.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n08/lanc2408.htm
You wanna talk about procrastination? I've got a pile of bills as high as my tuchis, and instead of paying them, I'm screwing around on the Lost in Translation website. (See http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/ for details. Thanks to Brian Siano for pointing it out.)
Here are some, ahem, INTERESTING multiple translations of Harlan titles:
Delusion for the flying red deers of the assassin (Delusion For a Dragon Slayer)
The Calm one is the Grasshopper Known as (Quiet Lies The Locust Tells)
All lies, those are my life span (All The Lies That Are My Life)
Disturbed refinery of sugar (Angry Candy)
Collection with incubus (Stalking The Nightmare)
Motivatings luminous of the fire the resistance (Soft Monkey)
Expensive loss stops in the Swimmingpool I gave Gloria Swanson (Face-Down In Gloria Swanson's Swimming Pool)
Extremely of the condition with cheeks of the moment (The Thick Red Moment)
In the balance stream control (Driving In The Spikes)
A duration, replenishing in advance the payment in the poverty (One Life, Furnished In Early Poverty)
HARLAN: Is your story "The Universe Of Robert Blake" actually ABOUT Robert Blake? Or is the title just a coincidence?
*** Jim *** I'm gonna go out on a limb here and completely agree with you. That's just really bad writing. I mean, we're not talking about stylistic interpretation here. I found myself re-writing, compressing, editing or discarding each sentence as I scrolled. Guy Stockbridge wrote stuff like that but he had some demented strengths to fall back on. Also he was on a bitchin' deadline schedule and getting something like a penny a word. Maybe more for the Spider material. Nevertheless, posting that excerpt on the Stephen King board is tantamount to pissing in the punchbowl.
Now I'm going to have nightmares but for all of the wrong reasons.
THANK YOU.
It's a lovely feeling to come out of the shelter and find that the house and barn are still standing.
This morning on the Today show the reporting individual said that the Chief of Police in LA is retiring soon and doesn't want to see another high profile case fall apart or go unsolved while he's behind the desk. She said there had been no grand jury indictment against Mr.Blake prior to his arrest. She added that this was not the norm. She went on to say that after placing Mr. Blake under arrest the cops were still scrambling for more evidence. Doesn't sound to me like they have him dead to rights.
I'm glad that he has at least one friend who will not shy away or condemn him. It seems like so many "friends" are ready to jump ship whenever something unpleasant befalls another.
I don't know what will happen next out there. That is a mighty big town with potentially infinite variables in the jury selection arena.
The county where I live is still socially 1952 in most ways. A no nonsense approach is still applied to individuals who show utter disregard for basic decency in a marriage situation. In FACT there is an old veteranarian here that spent a brief (like 30 days) stint behind bars for literally castrating a man who slept with his wife. He used a disinfectant so they didn't charge him with attempted murder.
:)
Cindy
A brief excerpt from Neil Gaiman's FAQ (http://www.neilgaiman.com/faq/faq.asp) on writer's block (there's more than this, but this is the crux of the matter):
"Necessity is a pretty good cure for writer's block -- not the getting stuck bit, necessarily, but the Not Writing bit of it. (My father once told me about a novelist he encountered in the 1950s who, when asked how he began writing, blamed, rather bitterly, er, Somerset Maugham if I remember correctly, who locked him in a room and wouldn't let him out for dinner each day until he'd pushed 5,000 words under the door.)
There's a wonderful essay by the great Daniel Pinkwater (in, I think, Fish Whistle) where he talks about his own cure for Writer's Block. He goes down to his study, and sits down in front of the computer, and he has to be there for a certain amount of time. He can either write, or he can do nothing, but he can't do anything else. No reading books, no doodling, no browsing the internet or making phone calls. He can write, or he can just sit there. Pretty soon, he gets bored of just sitting there, so he writes.
It works for me, too, mostly, although I also make cups of tea."
Washu,
Nah, you've pretty much captured my thoughts on Woo (especially "The Killer"). Pretty, dramatically engaging and violent with a point. Got great performances from Danny Lee and Chow Yun Fat. Damn good director that manages to rise above splatter/slash flicks.
Regards,
Joseph
Washu: About Woo, well, wow! The Hong Kong stuff (most of which has already been mentioned in other posts) is pretty amazing stuff, like Douglas Sirk with automatic weaponry or something. His "A Better Tomorrow" series is also well worth checking out. What worries me about his American movies is how visually redundant they've become -- like, okeydoke, John, how many times can you run the slo-mo doves in flight bit? And whatever skill he has in setting up action sequences matters but nought when you realize how awful he is with his American actors. So I dunno; I still dig his older movies, but I've given up on his Hollywood productions.
If you like "The Killer," you ought to check out Ringo Lam's Hong Kong movies if you haven't already. For my money, "Full Contact" is better than anything Woo has or will ever produce (plus it has a Boston Terrier in it!) and "City of Fire" (the film Tarantino "borrowed" bits of "Reservoir Dogs" from) runs a close second.
Jay and Jim,
I read the excerpt from "Shivers". You're saying THIS guy is being published? It was downright amateurish. Grammar blunders from one sentence to the next. Bad sentence structure. Hell, I couldn't get past the english. I sure hope he's being printed by a vanity press.
I read parts of a vanity press book years ago. It was called "Rainbow Arc of Fire". This was a book that was so bad, it defies description. Silverfish stay away from this book, and tell their friends it's a bad neighborhood.
Of course, you never know. "Shivers" could end up being published, then made into a movie produced and directed by Adam Sandler, starring Pauly Shore and Yakov Smirnoff. That'll give you the shivers. And, it'll hoist your gorge to the top of the mainmast, matey. Arrrrrr.
Zoe,
Now I'm really jealous. Shuttle launches, at night yet.
Chuck
CAN YOUR HEART WITHSTAND THE SHOCKING FACTS OF: RAINBOW ARC OF FIRE?
Jon: Thanks for the info on Canadian mass produced food products. Personally, as an American, I'm more inclined to have my incisors connect with a bagel rather than the soft congealed horrors of a Krispy Kreme donut. I braved one once and I was shocked at the lack of flour. But then the U.S. is also the land of Wonder Bread. But if Tim Horton's is as disturbingly addictive as you maintain, then I fear that we may be challenged by the rash inventions of Canadian food entrepreneurs. 25 cigarettes to a pack? Fred Leutcher indeed.
As for John Woo, the number of deaths in a John Woo movie per minute is as regular and as stunning as the number of pages that biographer Robert Caro has committed to LBJ.
LI'L WASHU: I agree with you on John Woo's films--except there needs to be a caveat added--a rhyming word triptych:
Woo used to.
His films like THE KILLER and HARD BOILED *are* amazing; both for their film artistry and for their depth.
Then he came to America.
And directed a Jean-Claude Van Dumb movie, a Travolta-as-villain movie, a Travolta-as-hero-no-wait;-villain movie, and a Mission Impossible sequel. I can't comment on his new WINDTALKERS, but even though it touches upon a subject dear to my heart, the Navajo codetalkers in WWII, I can't say as I hold out much hope for it.
Looks like he may have decided to do work in Hong Kong again--or at least, work that is split between HK and the US--so maybe there's still hope.
JAY: The excerpt is here: http://bbs.simonsays.com/bbdocs/Forum4/HTML/009118.html.
Read it, and tell me if I'm fulla crap for hating it.
Heather -
If you took the time to suggest it, I'm interested in giving it a look. Based on Jim's critique, I'm not going to play scavenger hunter to find it on the 'net.
Have a link I could click?
- Jay
Just saw John Woo's THE KILLER. Yowza.
Mr. Woo maddens the hell out of me. His films display the most unbelievable gushings of pure unrefined bloody violence ever committed to celluloid, and yet somehow merge a compelling story and moments of genuine style and beauty amidst all the bullet-ridden corpses.
I'll try to describe my impressions of Woo as best I can: "Wow, that character is going through some serious angst and moral dilem- wow, he's just blown away twenty guys with his machine gu- wow, this is a very conflicted and complex fi- wow, I've seen less people die in a FRIDAY THE 13th movi-"
And so on.
Anyone here with their 2 cents on the Woo?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Oops. I accidentally hit "send" before I could proof. "Simultaneously...at the same time"? Oy.
*****WARNING! POSSIBLE SPOILERS OF MULHOLLAND DRIVE AHEAD!*******
BERMALANGADINGDONG: Your thoughts on MULHOLLAND DRIVE seem pretty dead-on to me. Of course, we can't completely rule out that Diana actually HAD a relationship with Camilla--if you posit that the final 1/3 of the movie is real/not dreamed, then a failed relationship between the two gives everything an extra dimension of pathos. Not only has Diana failed as an actress, not only has she stood by and watched Camilla grab the fame and glory that should have been hers, she finds out the bitch is fucking other people, to boot!
I kind of prefer that interpretation--if the entire film is nothing but the fever dream of an obsessed wacko, then it's difficult for me to really care. That's why I think the discovery of the corpse in the bungalow is so significant--that's the intrusion of the awful reality that Diana has in store for herself. She's planning to commit suicide after news of a successful hit on Camilla comes through (which she does at the end), and that knowledge invades even the cozy interiors of her Nancy Drew fantasy.
*******END SPOILERS! THE STAID TREADMILL OF EXISTENCE MAY FIRE UP AGAIN!****
(I had the strangest sensation while seeing this film: I was simultaneously infuriated and enraptured at the same time. No matter how nonsensical the movie appeared, no matter how much I felt Lynch was dicking around to no discernable purpose, I watched with full attention, just the same. Weird, huh?)
HEATHER: I know you directed this to Jay, but I'll butt in anyway: That exerpt from moonlighter's soon-to-be-published novel is DREADFUL--it's muddled, trite, redundant, and completely bereft of ANY concision or zing. I can't believe for a second that a reputable publisher is actually going to print this book (he MUST be talking about a vanity press). For his sins, lock him in a closet with King's ON WRITING, release dependent on the production of ONE uncliched, clearly-written page.
Sorry if I seem a little mean, but it really is that bad. Also, I've just finished James Morrow's CITY OF TRUTH, and it's temporarily knocked off the needle on my tact-o-meter.
FUTURAMA - TONIGHT'S EPISODE
If you're on the west coast, watch it. IT'S HILARIOUS.
Sorry I didn't know about it sooner.
Plot- Fry travels to Omega 3 when he learns that the original Star Trek (all three seasons and six movies) has been outlawed, takes Leonard Nimoy to reunite with the original cast. Guest starring all but Doohan and Kelly
Hilarious.
Rob:
The basis you are stating that Arafat would have been able to build up a Palestinian state through the Oslo 'peace' accord is, and I hate to say the word, naive. The Palestinian controlled terrortories were the equivalent of the 'homelands' that Apartheid South Africa set up. Also given the internal Police force was being cultivated and trained by the CIA (yeah, wasn't that a surprise) and Israeli security forces, these were just areas were Palestinians were controlled by Palestinians who had something to gain from supporting Oslo (or as Said K. Aburish likes to call them, 'the Beirut on Thames' set).
Palestinians supported Arafat. Again, not really. Though certain liberalisations were accepted, the PLO authority started using its muscle to lock up any dissention to its and Israeli authority. I have over 50 email press releases from AI concerning these issues, dating from 97, you can find them on the AI website should you choose to explore further.
Resolution 194 - I presume you are unaware of the history of this resolution and UN Mediator Count Folke Bernodette who, when dealing with the Israelis, said that (and this is simplified) if Israeli's weren't prepared to accept UN authority and recognition of a Palestinian state then they also were not recognising the UN authority when it came to recognising Israel. The Stern gang thought hard about this and then shot him. I would reccomend looking stuff up on Bernodette, he was a very interesting and brave man though I have heard him being vilifed as an US anti-semite. Something I don't give any credence too.
Oh and the recognition of Israel. Well Palestinian acceptance of UN resolution 242 calling for Israeli withdrawal from the occupied terrortories and to go back to its pre-1967 borders was accepted by the PLO. A blind bit of difference that made.
And finally said lack of support, what I should have said was lack of diplomatic support. The Palestinians are paid lip service and thrown a little money just to make sure certain regimes domestic population are kept reasonably satisfied and don't get too angry to overthrow them. Why do you think Mubarak and the Saud family is worried? They know that if Israel doesn't accept to resolve the conflict without resorting to automatic weaponry, their own power bases will also be under question. Also, Israel has Dimona, nuff said. And that 'English double-talk' comment just convinces me that you actually don't know that much about what has been written in the Middle Eastern media.
Frankly, Israel diplomatic policy seems to be not to give a toss in having its neighbours recognise it. Sharrett secret negotiations with Egypt were tampered with and later on Saddatt had to have a war to get them to realise he was serious about peace. At the end, this is futile, because of all what I say is going to be ignored. I doubt your going to look at the references and I don't know about your contact network in the middle east. Why bother?
Harlan - I try my best, thanks. If I ever do visit LA, a mutual friend of ours, Steve Austin (director of the short film 'Moment of Silence') has promised me his sofa. So one day, I hopefully can go out for some beverage with you.
CEP - Isn't that the kind of solution all those milita groups are afraid off? Before we know it, the all knowing world goverment is monitoring us by Black Helicopters and every copper on the corner is replaced by a Blue Beret.
Getting to write - I often do a Borges thing and write a review of the work I AM TRYING TO WRITE. Of course, my attempts can never equal Borges style but its a good excuse in structuring the piece... otherwise, piece of advice. Use one computer for writing and get the other for the internet. And lock that computer up! Don't even go near it until you have a coherent sentence or two... maybe.
Lynch - I have yet to see Mullholland Drive but am a passionate fan of Dune. Liked Blue Velvet hated anything afterwards apart (have yet to see The Straight Story though) but Dune, though flawed, is a wonderful film and I just wish Lynch, one day, would choose to go back and do a re-edit his way. Won't happen though.
FAQ
Some guy named moonlighter at the main Simon and Shuster (SimonSays) Stephen King discussion board is having his book published.. He's been a regular on that site for a long time.
Go dig him up and tell me what you think of his writing.
H
Jay: As far as procrastination goes, all I have to do to get myself working is remind myself of two things. Number one is the fact that I've wasted an awful lot of my life thus far puttering about and accomplishing nothing, and that I'd better get my ass in gear and begin producing before I wake up in a retirement home with a surly teenage attendant rifling through my wallet. Number two is the fact that Harry Knowles received, I think, a six-figure advance on his "book." Yeah, those quotes are intentional ...
And if reminding myself of those two things doesn't work, I read record reviews. Go figger.
Hi again. Just wanted to note for those in the Los Angeles area 4/27/02, Ray Bradbury will be making an appearance at the LA Times Festival of Books at UCLA around 1pm: Fahrenheit 451: One Book, One City: Ray Bradbury Speaks out (with introduction by Steve Wasserman.)
There's a ton of other speakers that I don't immediately recognize as well--tickets are free, but apparently must be obtained from ticketmaster outlets in advance.
Hoping it's nice where you are...
Jay - As a college student, I've really mastered the procrastinate until hours before-its-due action. Not on purpose, of course... it just happens that way. Right. While I do usually work better under pressure, there are times I can't get myself on task.
What I usually do is this: cook. No, I'm not a good chef, and I usually don't make anything more than soup, or a bowl of cereal, or cut up some veggies. However, it gets me away from the computer and thinking either of other things, or just half-heartedly about my subject. Then, when I come back, I can stare at my screen for a few minutes while munching away thoughtfully. That's usually enough of a break for me to get going again.
--Zoë Rose, eating a bowl of peas between typing pauses.
Jay: I am in a similar dilemma. I have a pile of Grade 9 research papers to read and return in a week. I am on this website writing this message instead of working on them. What I do is, screw around for a while, setting a time limit. Then I sit in my special grading chair, listen to NPR and grade for a set amount of time. Then, at the appointed hour, I stop.
Writing is the same. I just sit down and type. It might well suck, but I can always go back and revise. Ah, the joys of the word processor.
CEP: I was being facetious about the Harry Potter comparison. They sound completely different in theme. I appreciate your insight.
Joseph: Thanks for the link. After you rent the movie, let's talk about it.
LW: Mulholland Drive--I found a very interesting analysis on salon.com that I highly recommend. They try very hard to explain it and, like any explanation of David Lynch, they fall short but not due to lack of intelligence or insight. While I agree in principle that one should not over-analyze, I am a critic at heart, that's my training, so I had to give it a stab.
SPOILER SPACE
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My idea is that the ENTIRE movie is a fantasy within a fantasy for Diane Selwyn. I think she came to Hollywood all idealistic, but failed as an actress. Camilla Rhodes is a famous actress, but was never Diane's actual lover-- that entire thing was her fantasy, even during the last half-hour when she was Diane and witnessed Camilla's infidelities (this accounts for the lurid and fantastical lesbian love scenes--they never happened except in Diane's mind). I think the grouchy female neighbor was Diane's real lover, they broke up, and that sent Diane on a downward spiral. The blue key is the key to her old apartment, symbolizing the break-up.
There is a lust/envy feeling towards C/R that I think comes from Diane's idealization of and jealousy towards the cinema idol. Perhaps she did lose a role to Camilla, which led to the obsession. Like any stalker of a movie star, Diane imagines a deep personal relationship with Camilla, in her mind cast in the role of "Rita", the lusty but helpless sexpot. When reality begins to set in and she realizes she can't and doesn't have C/R, then her hatred surfaces, she imagines herself spurned (as for a role in a movie) and wishes Camilla dead. None of it really happened.
Diane's own failure as an actress and Camilla's success must, in Diane's mind, be the result of a conspiracy, hence the whole Mafia aspect. The only part I am pretty sure isn't a dream is that Diane kills herself at the end, unable to cope with her own horrible feelings of paranoia, rejection, and failure.
Sorry to go on so long. It's that damned procrastination again. Feel free to punch holes in this analysis, as I'm sure it fails to account for something (the Cowboy, the homeless guy, etc.).
Bermanator
JOSEPH: Channel Harlan?
Seriously; procrastination is my worst habit. If you're doing nonfic, here's a good trick--look up articles on the same subject on the web. You'll hit the, "Shit; I can do so much better than this!" nudge. And you'll know that if you keep putting it off, you WON'T have done better than the crud you see.
That's usually a good impetus.
But yeah; Lawrence Block plays solitaire; me, I play FreeCell.
Put on _Bitches Brew_ and start typing?
Jon
I think Laurence Block plays a few hands of cards with himself..it gets his mind off the work for a bit.. but out of anything else..then he keeps getting back to the work.
Somebody else..forget who.. all I've read is Asimov lately..or was it someone else.. no matter. (Couldn't be Asimov. I don't think he HAD a problem too often with this.) (Stephen King? Peter Straub?)..Isolates himself in a room with nothing BUT the typewriter. He can't do any other writing.. and after a while, he gets bored of not doing anything and begins to type.
That what you meant?
H
ARGHHHHH... I'm on a deadline.
I'm also being very lazy. I've been distracted. What's your favorite, most effective way of avoiding this and getting back into the craft without forcing the art?
Jay
I just scrolled through a few pages to a message that ends with:
Also, Israel appears like a well armed man backed into a corner by five big thugs whose sisters he humped and dumped. It's fightin' time 24/7 and sometime the big guns are gonna go off...soon.
I can't go beyond it. Is something out of kilter?
Lemma know. Will try again, of course.
H
P.A. Berman,
Have not yet seen "Mulholland Drive," so I can't offer a 1st-hand experience. However, there is a highly interesting article from Ebert that I will have a link to at the bottom of this post. At a yearly gathering in Colorado, Ebert and 1,000 people watched the film for a week, using stop-frame on DVD whenever someone wanted to look at something interesting and discuss it. Interesting method, eh? Would love to give that a try. Anyhoo, here's Ebert and the rest of the participants...er..."conclusions:"
http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-ftr-drive16.html
Regards,
Joseph
Hi, everybody. It's good to be back.
I'm at home in my comfy coral-stone cottage in Bermuda and have FINALLY been able to access this forum again. Today it's fairly bright and sunny - might go for a walk with Elvis soon (my cherished basset hound, for those who don't remember).
BTW, I wrapped up college sooner than usual because I ha donly two exams out of four courses. For the other two classes I only had to do massive essays, but come April 16 everything was done and over with.
I knew I should have written a list for all the great threads I've had to miss. At the moment I'll only cover the topics I recall off the top of my head (or more accurately, right on the front page of the forum).
CINDY: I haven't seen WE WERE SOLDIERS, but the tagline alone (THIS TIME, AMERICA HAS THE LAST WORD) was almost enough to make me collapse into pathetic sobbing right in the middle of the theater. The thing that irked me about that catchphrase is that the film is set in Vietnam - subliminally indicating the U.S. will be victorious not only NOW, but back in Vietnam as well. I'm mostly indifferent when it comes to patriotism, but America seems to be going through one huge hissy fit.
P.A. BERMAN: I enjoyed MULHOLLAND DRIVE, and yet I still couldn't appreciate it as much as Lynch's other works. To answer your question, the entire narrative seems to be set up in a gigantic circular path, the trigger being the mysterious box we see in key scenes. Lynch has said that he never tries to rationalize or intellectualize his work or else it ruins the entire creative process for him. Suffice to say, I follow the same course and just try to EXPERIENCE his films rather than muddling them through my puny brain. That's what methinks. What doth youthinks?
Let's see...anything new? Well, I brought Peter David's novelization of SPIDER-MAN (I usually avoid movie tie-ins, but hey, it's Peter) and found it a great, light, quick read. I have GOT to find some of Mr. David's original works, because this guy has some serious talent. Some of the jokey pokes Mr. David made at the comic book world were hilarious, such as the ever-present alliteration of names (Bruce Banner, Matt Murdock, Peter Parker, Green Goblin, J. Jonah Jameson...) and the 'blink-and-you'll-miss-them' character cameos only someone as well-versed as Peter David could drop with such ease. My personal favourite was the scene in the Ascot Club between Norman Osborn and Jonah Jameson. Jolly Jonah had entered a rant about the idiocy of the 'digital age' in general and was tossing off various 'cyber-names' common in the internet to prove his point. Fuzzydice, the Destroyer, and Deathscream were among the delights he mentioned.
I mean, seriously, what the hell is up with that? Is that psychologically screwed up or what? Why would a sane person destroy any decent respect anyone may have for him by dressing up in an absolutely ludicrous name that-
Um....
Okay, fine, whatever. At least I didn't call myself 'Hoppybunny27'.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Good afternoon, all. We've a gorgeous day here, and spent the morning in pursuit of kites. Honest to god, the kids wanted to, but Scotty and I had as much fun as they did.
Mr. Ellison: You are sincerely welcome. I look forward to doing business with you in the near future.
Chuck: The wheel turns, and seems to be giving me a great year financially. But there's the the trap of success; the more I earn, the more work I seem to have. Still, summer's coming, that things tend to slow down then. I just don't want to give up the time for my kids; you all can call me a sentimental fool if you like.
Here's a little article that might be of some interest. I'd forgotten it a number of times, and can't recall if others have posted any word on this issue (Jon tends to be the one to keep folks abreast of happenings in the Great White North):
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1018303303376&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News
Sorry the URL's so large, just copy it to the address.
Myself, I'm of a mind that says that here I am as a taxpayer, paying for a system that feels comfortable to excuse itself from dealing with society when it feels its rules are being challenged. I look at Mr. Hall and his boyfriend this way: Mr. Hall is obviously openly gay (a courageous enough act, considering how tough it tends to be for gay kids in the school systems), and his fellow students don't seem to be upset at this. It only became an issue when the school board decided to make it one and these people are the ones on my dime.
Even more: My kids are in Montessori (I've had some past difficulties with how the public system treated Danny), and will not use the public system at all, yet still pay taxes for it.
Well, slowly, we'll move forward.
Now, if all will excuse, I'm going to have some lunch, then head out to a flea market. Scotty's on a bobblehead hunt again. We apparently missed the Dave Windfield Blue Jays Bobble giveaway last week at the Skydome, and he's been near suicidal ever since.
Love to all, Melissa
Just saw _Mulholland Drive_ last night. Whoa. That was supposed to be the pilot for a TV show?!?
I would love to hear what interpretations you guys have of that movie. I must say I rewound and rewatched some parts, in an attempt to clarify it, and I have a working interpretation, but I'm not too sure if I'm right (or if there is a right answer). Anyone care to offer his take on it?
Bermanator
I finished Gerald Kersh's NIGHT AND THE CITY a little while ago. Man, oh, man! Whatta book! To say I enjoy wouldn't do it justice. And, if it's not his best novel (this is going by Paul Duncan's essay about Kersh after the novel), I sure as hell hope iBooks--or someone--reprints his other work.
Thanks, Mr. Ellison, for the recommendation.
Bill
May I make a practical suggestion about why Ramen is more popular in college dorms that Kraft dinners? The Kraft dinners IIRC (there's an acronym for you-- "if I recall correctly") required milk and butter... Ramen only requires hot water. I never had dairy products on hand, but my dorm had a special spout attached to the sink that put out boiling water. Thus, Ramen, at $0.25/package, was the favorite choice. Kraft dinners would have seemed luxurious, decadent even.
Bermanator
Harlan: Thanks for the good word on "Watching." I plan on giving Dangerous Visions a shout as soon as they open their doors today. And, oh yeah, I do agree that it is one fine-looking tome, and many were the times I gave the green eye to my old library because they owned a copy.
If you don't mind, though, I have a second question, this one about "Mefisto in Onyx," which was set in Alabama, my old (and longed-for) home. There's a moment in the story when Rudy is about to arrive at Holman, and he mentions that he's "about three hours south of the last truly imperial barbeque in that part of the world, in Birmingham." Now, this question has plagued me ever since I read the story -- is this joint real, and if so, which one is it? I only ask because I know of your passion for verisimilitude, and because all your other Alabama details are so dead-on, and because there is a wild abundance of classic BBQ shacks in that area; and because (I'll admit it) it would be pretty gawdarn cool to say I ate at a place Rudy Pairis thought well enough of to note. (And yeah, I'm a bit nutty, but do forgive me, please ...)
I also picked up a reference in the story (I'm re-reading it) to one Fred A. Leuchter, a name that meant nothing to me when I originally read the story years ago. Has anyone on the board seen Errol Morris' wonderful documentary "Mr. Death," about Leuchter? It's a great, tragic story (I don't want to give away what it's about, but he's an execution specialist) in the true sense of the word tragedy (as opposed to, say, the 420-lb people on the daytime freak shows who talkshow hosts refer to as "tragic" instead of just goddamned sad). Ah, Leuchter, you poor, dumb bastard.
Final note, to all: I've really enjoyed keeping up with all of your posts, and I hope to maybe start adding to the conversation. So, it's okeydoke if I play, I hope? Thanks!
*** Harlan *** Urging Brian toward a career in farmwork is a profoundly bad idea. I once had to jump about 4 feet straight up in the air and OVER a bailing machine that I had just attached the PTO [power take-off] to in order keep from being turned into a colorful combination of Barney and hay [or perhaps alfalfa] by a Pennsylvania-Dutch lunatic who was too lazy to turn his fat ass all the way around and scope out where I was standing before giving her the gas.
The farm is no place for the inattentive.
Speaking of alfalfa I also hope Bobby Blake didn't do it. But we're in for it now, regardless. I really don't know if I can cope with a middle-east meltdown, 2-6 more years of the shrub AND another O.J.-esque [it's a word now damnit] type trial. Never thought I'd miss the eighties...
- Barney
Jon,
Sheesh. You make Canada sound like Bizarro Earth.
"Me am so sad to have 25-pack!"
Regards,
Joseph
Oh, not just regular Kraft Dinner, Joseph -- there's White Cheese Kraft Dinner and Extra Creamy Kraft Dinner and Sharp Cheddar Kraft Dinner and about 14 types of Kraft Dinner cold pasta salads and Egg Noodle Kraft Dinner and Spirals Kraft Dinner and even the Bizarro Earth Kraft Dinner Spaghetti and Powdered Just Add Water Spaghetti Sauce. The boxed pasta market in Canada is undergoing some crazed explosion into hitherto unpondered econiches. Why noone's come up with a Kraft Dinner-filled doughnut yet is beyond me. Served with the weirdly addictive not-exactly-coffee coffee of Tim Horton's, I'm sure it could become a staple, to be celebrated afterwards with a cigarette from one of our amazing 25-cigarette packs. I mean, a friend and I got the entire waitressing staff of a Perkins in Wisconsin congregated around our table for fifteen minutes because of our 25-cigarette cigarette packs. With a conversation piece like that, who needs charm?
Jon
Jon,
I'll admit, the 1st time I heard "If I had $1,000,000," by The Barenaked Ladies, the line about Kraft Dinners threw me. What can I say - I didn't know they were from Canada or what the hell Kraft dinners were.
Regards,
Joseph
Edward Champion: Well, Mordecai Richler used to observe that he had to have tins of Habitant pea soup shipped to him whenever he lived out-of-country -- call it another cultural divide. Kraft Dinner, besides getting numerous shout-outs on Terence and Philip eps of South Park, has also spawned numerous feature articles, including one in the now-defunct Saturday Night that delved into the great Canadian KD consumption mystery. Along with the vast difference between Canadian and American doughnut consumption levels and the attendant Canadian DSPC (doughnut shop per capita) conundrum (1:500-1:1000, based on anecdotal observation), I'd have to say that yes, we do eat things differently here. The inability of Tim Hortons to make a significant entrance into the American market and the entrance of Krispy Kreme into the Canadian market have also spawned numerous business features in Canada's finest newspapers.
Acronyms: All the LOL, ROTFL and SOL makes me feel like observing TANJ and, of course, TANSTAAFL.
Jon
Jon: To attest to the Great Northern divide between Nissin and Kraft, which strangely enough has particular bearing in the Melissa-Harlan dialectic, I believe that the American propensity towards excessive frugality is the answer here. Unless a college student (or other social misfit, aspiring or willing, with a dour dollar figure on an ATM printout) has access to a Costco membership, unless they have conned some warehouse or written some demented communique towards the companies in question hoping that a generous shipment of product can change said customer's mind (In my case, a few years ago, my "pain and suffering" in not having won a free Coca-Cola beverage during one of their contests was rejoined less than a week later by a plentiful billfold of coupons for free six-packs. This tactic also worked with Pepperidge Farms. And I think the compunction to write bizarre letters to companies is embedded within my genotype, for my grandfather once wrote a letter to Campbell's Soup, only to be visited in person by two representatives of that company, who talked with him about his letter and left with several plats of soup cans at his doorstep.), chances are they will adopt the lowest common denominator in matters of sustenance. A box of Macaroni and Cheese is about the cost of three or four of the beastly little Top Ramen packages that populate endless bins in corner stores, supermarkets and, yes, even Costco. In the mind of this prospective masochistic, retrograde gourmand, who has placed himself in a position far from affluence not necessarily by choice, there appears the illusion that one is getting something more for the power of the buck, when in fact there is hardly any advantage in this terrible resort towards processed foods with powdery substances resembling dust from a Martian fine or the remains of a late billionaire's urn contained in packages of a sterile and silver color.
What I never understood in my college days was why a lot of people resorted to this tactic when a quick jaunt to a farmer's market to obtain produce at cutthroat prices was not only more advantageous to one's health and palette, but tantamount in price with a watchful eye.
There may be some perceived Arthurian quest value, some qualifier that one is without a doubt living in poverty, in slapping down scant amount of cash for packages of Top Ramen. Much like an overpriced Acrombie & Finch shirt, the presence in some cupboard of endless packages of those ghastly noodles may very well be exhibitional in nature. But if the qualifier is at the expense of painful raisings of the mandible, then you can count me out. Besides, a good solid Bartlett or a York Imperial has more substance than slimy noodles, with nary a sauteed veggie or even Spike, the lazy man's spicy anodyne, with merely a dubious "flavor" stirred in.
Another evening spent snubbed by the roommates. Aah, patterns are such comfy things to live in. I think they're frightened by the fact that I find so much interesting material to read on the internet and in books. Things without pictures, even. Will wonders never cease. *sigh*
Right-o. Sorry for the glum beginnings.
CHUCK - Yep, that's one of the things I'm truly looking forward to in moving to Vandenberg AFB... the launches. I've been lucky enough to get to see two shuttle launches (in the middle of the darkest hours of the night) down in FL, and I'm looking forward to seeing a different version of the same, awesome event. You live anywhere near there? Be glad to get you on base to see a launch, if times coincide and they let me do that... KIDNEY beans? Yeccchhhh.
HARLAN - SOL! It's practically my nickname in my ROTC unit. We have a ceiling tile that we're painting for the senior class, with symbols representing each of us - mine is a person who doesn't reach to the "must be this tall to ride" sign by an airplane, with a thundercloud over her head zapping her with lightning. In the cloud is going to be inscribed, "SOL". I'm just that lucky, I guess. Anyway, my favorites are FUBAR and SNAFU. And the everpresent CF (charlie foxtrot, usually, by the phoenetic alphabet).
CEB - Your job sounds incredible. In my case, it's too late to change what I'm going to be doing, for my first tour at least. If I decide to stay in longer, I'll keep your suggestions in mind! What branch were you in, by the way? Are you still active duty?
LYNN - BFRC and broken windows... thanks for the warning. Looking forward to the coffee-talk!
--Zoë Rose
SOL is SOP at our HLP.
Translation: Shit-outta-luck is standard operating procedure at our homey little pit.
L.
Chuck~ An anecdote to put Titan IV launches in perspective: I moved down to LA from Lompoc to go to college in 1988. The first time I was in an earthquake of any real magnituted (5.3), I ran to the window, expecting to see the bright blue day star atop a column of white smoke. Upon arriving at the window I realized two things in quick succession: A) Trees do not quake in fear and B) This was not a missile launch. Needless to say I dove for cover as my furniture tap danced across the floor of my dorm room.
I think the last Titan launch was a couple of years ago, but when they were going off, they *regularly* broke windows all over VAFB and sometimes in town (6 miles away). And I will always remember the fun and excitement that has come to be called the "BFRC" (Big Fucking Red Cloud). That was a Titan II that exploded about half a mile up (don't quote me on that) and left a BFRC of solid rocket fuel hanging in the atmosphere. For a few hours, there was talk of evacuating the whole town of Lompoc before the winds changed and blew the stuff out to sea.
Exciting times,
L.
PS. Zoë, coffee it is. And never say it isn't a small world (after all?).
I've been busy for a couple of days...
(1) Bermanator: HIS DARK MATERIALS cannot be validly compared to Harry Potter as of yet, as the latter is not finished. That said, it's more that they're different than one is (or could be) "better" than the other.
(2) To all the future officers out there interested in the dark underbelly of covert/special operations: If you're not prior-enlisted, you'll get much closer to the action by learning a few foreign languages and getting assigned to something that sounds particularly innocuous: Area Studies. (I was a Southwest Asia Area Studies Officer while on active duty... although that's not what the unclassified parts of my personnel records say. Suffice it to say that I watched the Berlin Wall come down. From the other side. While retrieving a compromised intelligence asset.) Officers don't get to be Rambo, or at least shouldn't be Rambo. An officer's job is to make decisions, not get his/her bloody head shot off. Thus, it's more... entertaining, I think... to be the one making the decisions, which one is trained to do.
(3) Having said that, there's plenty of blame to go around in Southwest Asia. Most of the governments are totalitarian; all of them are theocracies. Having spent my military career trying my darndest to neutralize some of the more-extreme factions, or at least keep them from killing too many civilians, I have little respect for the power structures in place, whether Israeli or Islamic. There are plenty of a*&)^)es whose personal interests are in keeping the conflict going on both sides.
Consider the following modest proposal: Get rid of nations. Substitute a single, centralized but broadly representative, self-criticizing, gives-a-sh*t-about-maintaining-peace-and-individual-dignity world government. If you don't think that's a good idea, please show me an alternative that is more likely to keep tribal chieftains from eating each other's children. (Yes, this from a US military officer, who is no more enchanted with the a&*)^)^!es in OUR government than those anywhere else after spending too much time inside the Beltway with eyes and ears open and mouth shut.)
MELISSA:
Thank you for the response. It has prompted Susan and me to look at something no longer applicable: "not for sale outside the USA." Cyberdreams is out of business. MGM's license is defunct. There is no earthly reason we shouldn't sell our stock ANYWHERE. Which we wouldn't have thought of, had we not had this liaison. Thank you. Serendipity works for me yet again.
Would you please remove that warning, Rick? Thank you. And you can substitute "available for order worldwide" in its place.
Thank you again, Melissa.
JIM from OLD VIRGINNY:
Sadly, HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING is one of the very few of my books that we DON'T have for sale. The original publisher went through three or four hardcover printings, mostly distributed by
Publishers Group West, and it sold excellently. One of the tastiest-looking books I've ever designed; I was true proud of that package. Then they did three or four trade paperback printings, and it continued to sell well. Then, a few years ago, the two partners of that firm split up, after many years, and one of them retained WATCHING. I don't know what happened, but he didn't sell it well, and a year or two ago he returned all rights to me. But the book had done so well, there was no remainder stock. So we're SOL (an acronym most of you don't seem to know), and while it will definitely be one of the early reprints when we get the Edgeworks series up and running again--this time under my own Edgeworks Abbey imprimateur--at the present it ain't in our pouch. But it's not a hard book to find. You can try Dangerous Visions in Sherman Oaks, California, or some of the other specialty bookshops, or just go onto e-bay or Amazon.Com. You'll find it. I promise.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Zoe: You're going to Vandenburg?!! I would LOVE to see the launch of one of those Titan IV birds. Hey, at least what they're launching won't vaporize anybody. That would be spectacular. Of course, I know there will be a large work-load for you there. Enjoy the good stuff while you can.
Scott: Better watch out for Politeness Man. I understand he eats the "free-range rude". With fava beans and a nice chianti. But then, I really don't see you as a rude guy, so maybe he'll eat the next troll that comes slouching onto the b-board. Tell Melissa she's a better conscience than Jimminy Cricket. Oh hi, Mel! Just talking with Mr. O'Scott. How's the pottery business going?
Jim Davis: Don't get me wrong, Jim, I wasn't heading a cavalry charge, here. I understand that many gay people do have more disposable income since they have no children, though some would like to adopt. If only the pecksniffs in congress would keep their pointy, blue noses out of other people's business, more would.
Cindiana Jones: So, correct me if I'm wrong. I am getting the impression, from a previous post, that you kinda, sorta, maybe, well, I dunno...might have HATED the movie WE WERE SOLDIERS. Is the the impression you were trying to get across? >:^))
Zoe: So, you're on the Ramen College Diet. When I was in college, it was kidney beans. My roomate put them into everything. I mean EVERYTHING. They were cheap, nutritious, they stretched everything we cooked. And to this day, I cannot look at a kidney bean without a rumbling deep in my gorge, "IGNITION SEQUENCE STARTS!" Betcha won't eat any ramen after graduation.
Kidney beans. Ugh.
Chuck
"Does it come wif wafers?"
Okay, lots of points to respond to.
First of all, Cindy, whose neighborhood is facing their own issues re Historical Preservation. I cannot speak on every Historic District designation that's being proposed, because they are run differently in different areas of the country.
And it also depends on the area being proposed for preservation. I can say that the area of West Philly, where I live, has usually been a college bohemia where 85% of the residents are renters. We, the opponents, believe that the HD requirements'd push the rents up, and change the character of the neighborhood into that of, well, a strictly-governed suburb. For more information, browse to http://www.briansiano.com/sprucehill and behold my web glory.
(By the way, my area has a bit of history, none of which is to be preserved by the proposal. This was the area where Satterlee Hospital stood, where many casualties from Gettysburg were treated. At 45th and Walnut, Isaac Asimov made his home when he, Heinlein, and de Camp were stationed at the navy yards. And until a few years ago, the esteemed SF editor George Scithers was based a block or two west of me, and both _Asimov's_ and _Weird Tales_ came out of my neck of the woods.)
Just one comment about Israel and Palestine. I'd like to make one thing perfectly clear, and I think it applies to all of our opinions. There's not going to be much of a solution that won't involve a lot of blood and fury. Israel's become a heavily-militarized religious state that has fallen from an ideals behinds its formation. The Palestinians, ground into the dirt for so long, have had their movement for a Palestinian state subverted by the corruption of Arafat's governance-- so many have given up hope, or place their hope in the lunacies of Hamas. The United States has supported Israel to such a degree, and even after the worst of its excesses, that even if the US were to change its decades-long position and make Israel aid contingent upon establishing a Palestinian state, nobody'd want to bite at the offer. That said, my sympathies are with the Palestinians for a very simple reason; no matter how you look at it, they're the ones who've been attacked, fucked over, and ruined, and it's my nature to side with those people.
Okay, now for a follow-up on that poster thing. I went ahead today and made lotsa copies of my poster. I did, however, take the logo of our group off the poster. (Note that I wrote "off," and not "off of." I try, Harlan, I try.) This way, the posters are _my_ statement, not the group's. I'm courteous like that.
The advocates have been putting up their own posters. Their headline, I'm happy to say, was a direct reply to the title I used for our earlier flyers. I saw a few when I made my rounds, and every where I saw one of theirs, one of mine went up right beside it.
The interesting thing is, I did posters in the area of town where the houses are run-down, and populated mostly by people of limited English and darker complexion. I did this because I wanted to make sure that these people _knew_ what was being planned for them. Oddly enough, while the advocates of the HD proposal covered _my_ affluent area with their posters, the poorer area I hit had almost _none_. Gee, you don't think they were hoping that those po' li'l Nigras wouldn't _notice_ or anything, do ya?
As I put up posters, I also dispensed brochures, and chatted with homeowners who asked what I was up to. I found that these people tend to fall into two groups. The first are People who Know about the Proposal, and Hate It. The second are People who Don't Know about the Proposal, but After I Told Them, They Hate it Too. I'm beginning to really enjoy being a Community Organizer; I'm wondering if maybe this was some unknown talent of mine.
I'd like to mention that, in addition to my own posters-- printed on bright green paper to be extra eye-catching-- I also posted the _map_ of the Historic District proposal. This way, people can see that it _will_ affect them.
Now, all we need is someone named Brian Berman to come onto this board.
Mr. Ellison:
I see your point perfectly, but I think you missed something. If you look at the listing here at the site for the game you'll read "no sale outside the US". I live in Canada, and that's obviously beyond your borders. I assumed that some copyright law, or legalese concerning the retailing of computer games was the reason; not you, your wife or any such thing. Lynn was nice enough to give me an explanation, and so I moved on. If someone had informed me to ignore the assertion about legal sale, I would've whipped out the plastic then and there. Sadly, as it stands, I've bought a new copy elsewhere, and at a slightly higher price, leaving me to kick myself. Your information came a bit late and there's really no one who is to blame.
The bit regarding the tiff comes from Scotty's attitude about being called a termite. I know, so what?, and yes, that was my comment to the husband. Scotty always had a thin skin when it comes to namecalling, and you unknowingly struck that nerve. Not your fault; you're a quite talented man, but probably very unqualified to use mental telepathy (sorry, couldn't resist).
I've taken the liberty to print the list of goods you have available, and will compare against Scotty's collection. If there is anything my husband doesn't have, I'll be ordering it. Not out of sympathy, sir, partially to fill the husband's collection, partially to get a rise out of him. You've got to understand, I like to keep a fire lit under him. He's much more attractive to me that way.
I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, and please, my best wishes for your continued success,
Melissa
MEETING CONCLUDED, I RETURN
TO CONCLUDE THE EARLIER POST:
MELISSA:
Well, yes, there is a need on my part to continue re: the CD-ROM of I HAVE NO MOUTH, AND I MUST SCREAM which you are apparently still contemplating purchasing for Scott.
The "tiff," as you call it, with Scott, is reprised in your recent posts about wanting to obtain the game. First of all, there's nothing "wrong with the game." It sold thousands of copies and won half a dozen game designer awards. That's your paranoia speaking. Second, if you'd prefer to buy from someone other than HERC through our book sales, that's just fine; but do not for a second believe that if anything DID go wrong with the unit you received from us, that you'd have less trouble returning it to some stranger than to us. We've been doing this for years, we have NO COMPLAINTS, and we don't charge an arm and a leg for postage and the mythical "handling" that adds two, three, five bucks to e-purchases. We charge what it costs us to ship, and Susan packs everything splendidly herself.
To pursue that a tot further. You're going to pay more for whatever used or opened or second-hand or shelf-soiled remainder that some e-merchant unloads on you, including all the postage and "handling," than you'd pay us for a mint-condition, still-sealed Mac or PC version of the game, with a free complimentary extra mouse-pad tossed in, signed if you requested same, personalized if you requested same. Because WE OWN all the new stock. What you'll get elsewhere is stuff bought from a distributor ten years ago, shunted around, remaindered, and finally proffered to comparison-shoppers like you.
But here's the bug-up-my-ass that caused the "tiff" with Scott, and which you now reprise:
Kindly do me the favor of not walking into my store, pawing the goods, then announcing in a loud voice to the other prospective patrons, "Shit, I can get one of these down at the flea market for two bucks less."
I have little hope of ramming the concept through either of your heads, but the discourtesy is as follows: we--that is, Susan and I--watch booksellers, hucksters, e-merchants and random hustlers taking my readers to the cleaners for the purchase of books and other items asociated with me, only because (even with all the much-vaunted worldwide access of this net) they are ignorant of what is available at a reasonable price. They are like naive country bumpkins, eschewing bookstores and shops a block from their home, in exchange for the bogus "convenience" of buying the same stuff off the net, with the additional taxes and charges and postage and "handling."
So we--Susan and I--two little people running a genuine old-time mom'n'pop shoppe--own ALL the remainders of most of my works from the last ten, twenty years. We have it written into my contracts. Or we wind up with the goods when the producer of said goods fucks us over...as with the CD-ROM of I HAVE NO MOUTH... We offer this stuff to make a buck, rather than letting strangers make that buck and stiff you in the process. We do it as self-serving, ABSOLUTELY, but we also do it as a service to my readers. We do not charge exorbitant prices, we do not hoard the goods till they become scarce and then run up the price, we do not mislabel and pass off shoddy or damaged goods. Everything is mint condition, straight from the publishers' warehouse, and everything is guaranteed by two little people to be okay. And if it isn't, a postcard or phone call gets the matter rectified almost overnight, not in six to ten weeks or whenever the computer spits it out.
So. Your husband came in here, and opened his big bazoo that he could get one or another of the books he was looking for by only spending six hours on the web tracking down every used paperback shop in the Western Hemisphere, and though the copies had Komodo Dragon cum all over the back cover, and there were three pages missing in the middle, why golly gee whiz . . .
IT WAS TWO WHOLE DOLLARS LESS THAN WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR THE SAME TITLE!!!
Now, get this, I'm saying it slowly, with emphasis, but politely:
I don't give a shit WHERE you buy my books, if you are inclined to spend your money in that fashion. In specific fact, I don't give a rusty-nail fuck if you DO buy my books at all. Purchase of my emanations is not a necessary ticket to come in here and post till your little wren heart bursts. It's not my business where you spend your hard-earned pennies. I don't hustle, I don't ram the books down anyone's throat, there are apparently dozens of people--some of whom even post here regularly--who don't KNOW there's a bookshop link here. They go off and get clipped buying on e-b ay or Amazon or wherever, and they come back crowing that they lucked onto a ripped but serviceable copy of, say the HORNBOOK, and it only cost them ten bucks...when they could have had a pristine copy at $23, which is exactly what the book cost, cover-price, when it came out a decade ago, even though I've seen it offered for $50 on some greedyguts website.
And if that $13 difference plays hell with their budget, if they can't afford a serviceable copy from HERC as opposed to a near-serviceable copy from E-Squallor Books, I wish them well. Good luck! They're not REQUIRED to buy from me, and I don't diss them for going where their exchequer directs them. I'd do the same! Take the deal and live happily. But that ain't what you and Scott did/do.
You came on here, Melissa, as did Scott, and you ran your number about how you wanted to buy him a copy of the game, and you checked out what we were asking for it here, and yeah, it was a pretty good price (in fact, mint condition, ten dollars or more below what it sold for new at Blockbuster half a dozen years ago), but you were going to go shopping around, anyhow.
I have no problem with that. Go with gawd, says I (or whoever's in charge).
That's your privilege. I have no problem with it. NONE. Buy here, or don't; but kindly refrain from walking into my store, sniffing around the goods, picking up the melons and squeezing them, and then announcing to the horde, "I'm goin' down to the used casaba emporium under the bridge. They got only slightly rotted melons for half off."
You see what caused the "tiff"? You see what's got my ruff up with you?
And I didn't notice anybody snubbing your old man; he announced he was taking off for a while. And MY "tiffing" with someone has next to NO effect on anyone else here. For all the bullshit posturing that people will get struck by a bolt of lightning, it seems to me they just keep on boogie'ing.
Like...
CINDY (who pretends to be hiding in the storm cellar):
Yeah, I'm with you on sticking it out with Blake. Good post, baby! Bobby Blake is an old friend of mine. Or was. Haven't had any contact with him in thirty years or so, but we used to be tight; and I don't know if he whacked that harridan he was married to, but whether he's guilty or innocent, I think of myself as his pal, and, like you, I stick with him. If he needs anything from me. (Spoke to his attorney, Harland Braun, a few weeks ago, before the bust came down, and had a strange premonition, and told Braun if Bobby needed me for anything, well, thirty years' silence wasn't that big a deal.)
FAISAL:
I come to admire you more and more with each posting. I hope one day we cut trail so I can buy you a cup of good coffee. If there were more hearts and brains like yours, on both sides of the Impending Horror, our chances for living through the new decade would be fatter. My best wishes to you, sir. You're a mensch.
And that concludes the remainder of my posting.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Not sure if anyone else is interested in this, but Layne Staley, lead singer of Alice in Chains, died of "unknown causes" today. I am a big AIC fan, and their sound has been very influential. Mr. Staley finally lost his battle with drugs, methinks. Sigh.
Bermanator
Harlan or Susan: Before I start searching online for a copy, I was wondering if you had any extra copies of "Harlan Ellison's Watching" just sitting around, begging to be sold. I'm a member of HERC, and don't remember seeing that title listed, but I thought I'd try before I sent my money elsewhere. Thanks!
I find myself logging on just to see if folks have posted. I feel an addiction coming on...
CINDY- Never heard of "The Gift", but I'll check it out if the local movie shops have it. Sounds great! Unpredictable is hard to find these days. Although... I recently saw... lordy me but I can't remember the name. Dangit. Brain fart. The one with Bradd Pitt as the indecipherable guy, and there's a diamond heist going on... sheeez, can't think of it! Anyway, in the beginning it's got a great Rabbi-scene. I believe they discredit Christianity comletely. Hilarious! Anyway, that was an unpredictable one, too.
I spent time at Sheppard AFB, in Witchita Falls TX. What little I saw of the actual city was hell-holish. The base was all right, though! Great racketball courts.
Got it- SNATCH! That's the movie.
I'll e-mail ya responses to the part you send me. Thanks, new pal.
--Zoë Rose
ZOE!
Thank you! I'm delighted you appreciated my analogy.
Yes when I notice my ass hurting in a theatre seat that is a very bad sign. That movie almost crippled me. Mel with a Russian accent... say it ISN'T SOOOOOOOO!
That reminds me ... I saw a film recently with Keanu Reeves.. oh yes, The Gift. A sweet little jewel of a film-- everything except Keanu's stinkin' bad excuse for a southern accent. The hilarious part came AFTER the film (on HBO I think) when he was discussing the merits of his dialect coach. I bet that poor woman wants THAT segment BURIED.
Everyone else she worked with was flawless... but when Keanu opened his mouth I wondered, " Where the FUCK is he supposed to be from?" It certainly wasn't Georgia. Did you see that film? I really enjoyed the hell out of it! It was completely unpredictable. Giovanni Ribisi was excellent as always. Kate Blanchett's accent was perfect, never a missed dipthong. After the film I watched carefully to see who the writer had been-- it is SO unpredictable. Guess who it was?
Billy Bob Thornton. No surprise there.
You mentioned that you spent some time in Texas? Where abouts?
As for you reading my screenplay I would be so honored Zoe!
I will send it to you first part first.
yer new pal,
Cindy
A lovely day goes to car-shopping and puts me in a fit of jealousy of all those people who are willing to put themselves deeply into debt. Damn the over-awareness of money my dad passed down to me. *sigh*
Anyway, replies -
CINDY- I'd read that screenplay you were talking about - can't promise quickness, but I like reading that kind of stuff.
JAY- I'm trying to make myself a three or four hour slot to go to the local used bookstore and see if I can't find any of these HE things you're talking about. Someone is sending me THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON so that should be covered, heard lots of great stuff about that one too. I've got a list going of all sorts of must-reads (by HE and by others) that I've gleaned from this board.
PAPA HARLAN- I'm speechless. I don't have a thesaurus around or else I'd try and find some alternate ways of saying thanks. In any case... thanks. I will be sure to send you an engraved invitation when Justin and I decide when we're getting married. And about the dots - it's the thought that counts. One of my friend's dads used to call me "Zoe dot dot" after I told him how to spell my name. Mind, this was verbally- "Zoe dot dot's on the phone... well hello there, Zoe dot dot." While it did get old, it was silly too.
Heh. Digression. Sorry.
JUSTIN- When're we getting married? *grin* Let's find us a real expensive catering service... HE is paying! Hehe...
Go security forces, and if you can get into the Scuba deal, do it! Even if you drop out, at least you tried. I missed out on an opportunity when I was a freshman to go do a Freefall program at the AF Academy. I'll always kick myself for that. In any case.. sounds torturous and like lots of fun. The shadow program, I did that last summer. Got to go to good ol' Texas and sun a lot. Also got a T-38 ride, which was too breathtaking to make a post short enough about.
RE: The two dots (which.. just so y'all know, they aren't umlats, at least not the ones in my name.. my turn to be nitpicky) can't be done if you don't have a number pad to the far right of your keyboard, I don't think. That leaves out most laptops. Oh! Unless it's a Mac laptop.
CINDY again- I love your Caucasians killed Kennedy analogy.
JON- TROUBLEMAKERS has been added to The List. Thanks! I did, in fact, OD on raman (though I still adore tomato-flavored), and switched to Kraft for awhile. Then the price went up and now I'm into the "hey, frozen vegetables are quick, healthy, and can stay in the freezer for YEARS!" mode.
BERMANATOR- I'm not sure about the dots over the O... someone else posted quite a few of the tricks. I'm partial to dots over the E, and ignorant of all other letters, t'be honest.
CINDY once more- You, uh... didn't have a strong opinion on "We Were Soldiers," did you? *hee* I guess while I wasn't quite as repulsed by it, I did note the bad acting. Did you see there's a movie coming up where Gibson has a Russian accent?! Terrible.
That's all for now, folks. Got to bury my nose in Consumer Reports on cars. *sigh*
--Zoë Rose
I saw We Were Soldiers. God DAMN I haven't been so pissed since The Matrix. I think they should have called it We Were Acting.
I couldn't WAIT for them to all get home or get shot so I could leeeeeeeeeeeeave.
Mel Gipson is a hell of an actor. WHY DID HE HAVE TO USE THAT STUPID FAKE ACCENT? That was all I could do, stare at him and think about how AMAZINGLY BAD that accent was. " WAY WEEEL RAAAAAAAAAHD INTO BATTLE AND THEEEUS WEEL BE AIR WHORSES."
The young soldiers were WORSE they were unconvincing and mincing and their wives all needed to be slapped.
Losing all interest in the story my mind began to wander from the dialogue. I reflected on the way the scenes were shot, the lighting the blocking, my own minor pangs of envy when Madeline Stowe got to roll around in the rack with Mel Gipson. Rather than empathize with her character, who was about to send her warrior husband off to war perhaps never to see him again, I am thinking, "Wouldn't an actress HAVE to get turned on in a position like that with him? I wonder if that is her ACTUAL upper lip or if it was plumped up like that with collagen or ass fat injections... oh WAIT no ass there.. she must have had collagen.
Did I tell you that I HATED IT???????????????
:)
Cindy
Jon:
"a blatant instrument of patriarchy."?
Okay, and I suppose the killer ice-cream cone in "The Doomsday Machine" was a representation of the evils of female sexuality; that the spaceships had to penetrate the device in order to assuage the threat of castration of the male libido?
God, I need a night out...
Melissa
Mr. Ellison:
No need to continue: I've made a couple of other inquiries, and am waiting on a response (although I must admit I'm wary of the dealers, but don't like blowing people off). I'd just thought there was the conumdrum that Lynn explained (by the way, thanks Lynn), so I moved on.
I read the last of your post, re "A Boy and his Dog", one of the few of your stories I'd managed to find prior to meeting the husband. You made my day proving I was right.
It puts paid to all the dumb brunette jokes...
Love to all, Melissa
Jim: I told my best friend about the whole "gay people are more affluent" statistics. Aside from noting the irony considering his own financial situation, he said that could easily be accounted for the by fact that most gay people don't have kids. Makes sense to me, and doesn't mean that the Gay Gene is next to the Rich Gene, right?
Faisal: Everyone needs to apologize, not just Israel. Everyone has stalled the peace process. I wish I could cut through the moral morass and choose a side, but I know that I could read every single source you've cited and still not get on board with your view of things. Sorry.
Zoe: How did you do that two dots over the O again? I got the I but not the O.
Bermanator
CHUCK: Apologize if I lectured you in my last post--I know you know that Gays aren't all livin' the high life (obviously), and I wasn't trying to suggest you didn't. (Now taped to my laptop's screen: DON'T POST IMMEDIATELY AFTER WAKING.)
Ah, ah. So a friend of mine is teaching a Star Trek course at a local university (yes, you read that right). So he dug up a student midterm to share with me, because he thought I'd find it funny. One student, in the course of analyzing "City on the Edge of Forever," deemed the Guardian "a blatant instrument of patriarchy." About all I could muster in reply was the "thp-thp-thp" sound Sylvester the cat sometimes makes, followed by a fit of giggling about absurdity on a number of levels. My head hurts now, but reading Dan Simmons's *Hyperion* for the first time seems to be clearing it up, along with healthy doses of stories from my Year's Best Horror paperbacks from the 1980's.
Oh, and Zoe -- Harlan's *Troublemakers* is a nice, relatively inexpensive recent collection that should be in your local bookstore. The immense 50-year Essential Ellison is obviously great, but I also assume you're on a student end-of-year budget, with all the Ramen festivals that that entails. Why you Americans never developed the dependence on Kraft Dinner that Canadians did escapes me.
Well, off to meet Ugly Bob at the Kraft Dinner Restaurant.
Jon
What's goin' on? Is Harlan gonna kick someone's ass? Huh huh huh huh huh?
--Jim (Who JUST woke up. Don't ask. Very strange evening here in the Serengeti.)
P.S. CHUCK: Read your message. Just so you know, I didn't necessarily agree with Frank's comment vis-a-vis the opulent lifestyle of the gay population--I was merely pointing out that SOME polls have shown a slightly greater average per capita income for homosexuals. Even IF said polls are absolutely correct (which is hardly a given), that doesn't mean every gay person is wondering whether to vacation in Ibiza or Majorca this year, and if Kandinskys are a good investment on the auction circuit. Got it? Good.
(By the way, the similar assertion that Jews control the world's money supply obviously doesn't account for me, who's never owned a new car in his life. Where's MY cut from the International Jewish Conspiracy? I haven't received ONE goddamned check in the mail, NOT ONE. Maybe it's time to switch sides. I've heard the Shakers have a pretty good racket with the furniture...)
Faisal,
Well...CALL me stubborn:
"There are...people on both sides trying to acheive a dialogue that gets lost in the corrupt political rhetoric."
Give me examples of people in the Muslim world - Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq - who are interested in serious dialogue with Israel (particularly among corrupt leaders). Seems to me the only way to convince you opposition to Israel as a state is preponderant is if we arm them all to match Israel's military strength and watch their actions. I hold they would move in for the kill in a night. Even prior to Sharon's direct response to the suicide murders (which, in themselves, suggest so).
"... the horrendous treatment of the Palestinian population..."
How well does that REALLY hold up now in light of the efforts Israel made when they brought Arafat back? He could have built the path to a Palestinian state, ruled by its own laws. Israel - it seems to me - was trying to take steps to eliminate these problems. Arafat himself was the problem...and since he enjoyed overwhelming support from the Palestinians they themselves were the problem.
"most Muslims want Israel destroyed...Won't happen, its a fact of life that is ACCEPTED."
History - right up to the present day (for the billionth time I direct your attention to R194 in "fine print") - has suggested otherwise. But I certainly praise YOU for apparently accepting it along with the likely minority over there (Where were you living "out there" btw? Which nation are you talking about?).
"And speaking frankly, you seem to be quite ignorant of the amount of flak, muslim counteries have taking for years concerning their lack of support of the Palestinians."
Well, the arms being channeled from places like Iran to conduct the suicide bombings (in addition to - I THINK - money that was traced to Saudi Arabia; I could be off on that detail) don't exactly suggest outright abandonment either...although I know the majority of Muslim countries do not believe in resorting to suicide missions, nearly a Palistinian specialty (which, perhaps, is why they took the flak you mentioned). That still doesn't convince me they're interested in recognizing Israel as a state. They'd have come forth - in ARABIC, not just English double-talk - some time ago if they were.
Harlan: If memory serves, you (however reluctantly) use a laptop to post here. I also use a laptop, and I couldn't get that alt 0259 shit to work either. My computer said "Beep beep beep beep" to me as well, and I laid the matter to rest by calling it an exceedingly nasty word and giving up. Laptop keyboards aren't the same as regular desktop computer keyobards, so it's not our fault. It's these uppity contraptions of ours.
J
Oh SHIT!
What's HE going to say to meee?
I think I'll get in a closet on the lowest level of my home and pull a mattress over myself.
Cindy
John G and Zoe: I did mean Special Forces. I guess the ERMA's (Easily Recognizable Military Acronyms for those of you wondering) vary between Army, AF, Navy, etc. Thanks for the link, John. I checked it out and it looks like really solid info. The reason Scuba School could get me a shot at further SF training in and of itself is because it's primarily a school for SF guys. Why ROTC command decided to send ROTC cadets there I'll never guess, and we'll see how long it lasts before some kid gets himself severely fucked up. Of the four guys we sent over, only one of them made it through pre-scuba in Coronado, California, and will advance to the actual 4 week Combat Dive training course in Key West. One guy got hurt and two others got sick of it and decided to come home. One of my buddies went and he said he got sick of them drowning him every day. But I'm glad they're doing it because the more opportunities ROTC cadets have the better. Before now the only schools we had open to us were Airborne, Air Assault, Northern Warfare, and CTLT (where you basically shadow a 2nd Lt. for 2 weeks). For anyone interested, here's the deal on the school: http://members.tripod.com/~thede/scuba.html. If I'm going to do it I'll have to swim my ass off while I'm overseas next year to get used to being in the water. I did drownproofing the other day (where your feet are bound together and your hands are strapped behind your back, then you get thrown in the pool), and discovered that my comfort level in the water is nowhere near what I thought it was. I didn't freak out, but I came close. Fun stuff.
That's INFRINGE, not "in fronge."
I KNEW I should've proofed that damned thing.
I don't get the "Jews Killed Jesus" thing.
Isn't that like saying, " The Caucasians killed Kennedy"?
Cindy
ANSWERING MINOR POSTS SINCE THURSDAY:
BRIAN (the one who didn't like the film "A Boy and His Dog"):
Though I weary of the ongoing ignorance of people who confuse a movie with its source material--a cultural stupidity that goes to the burning core of my basic hatreds--I will point out the idiocy of the responses to Brian's original post. Pay attention.
Brian says he doesn't believe Quilla June would fall in love with Vic after one night of sex in a boiler.
All of you accepted that statement, and tried to alibi me out of it, saying that there are, indeed, fuckees and fuckors who can blind the partner with--if not science--sensuality. Folks, that only happens in cartoons like the James Bond movies, where 007's ultra-dick is so mesmerizingly potent that otherwise competent, dedicated, even fanatically committed, women switch sides, kill their bosses, throw themselves teeth-first at his zipper, and get offed for their hormonal duplicity.
"A Boy and His Dog" is not a Bond cartoon.
Well, if Brian had understood AT ALL what was going on in that movie, which I don't think he does, not by the teeniest friggin' clue, he never would have thought for a moment that Quilla June was in love with Vic. And as I do, I completely agree with him--and sniff disimissively at all your well-intentioned but wrongheaded cripplings of logic intended to prove that good ole Harlan actually knew what he was doing, if only you were wise enough to penetrate his arcane symbolism and subtle manipulations of plot and character--I AGREE with Clueless Brian
that it's unbelievable, improbable, and unacceptable that Quilla June fell in love with a brutal, scruffy, rape-drooling total stranger after a single night of getting her ass scraped with rust in a boiler.
IF that were what had happened in the movie--not to mention the novella--IF--IF--then Clueless Brian would be dead on, and the rest of you apologists would be fulla shit, as well as imprudently overprotective of me and my great talent.
BUT THAT AIN'T WHAT HAPPENS!!!!!
Not in the story. Not in the film.
Quilla June has been sent out as a judas goat, a lure, a snare, a decoy by the elders of the Downunder. The sperm of the men Downunder has been mutated, and they're only able to produce
girl children. They need an untainted, hardy stud from the feral roverpacks aboveground. A lab sample. A milking machine.
So they send out the most attractive, but rapacious, female they can find. To lure a guy downunder.
She purposely singles out Vic in the movie, purposely lures him into following her, purposely lets him peep her tom so he gets a
hard-on; and she has no compunctions--like Mata Hari or an actual CIA spy--about letting him fuck her.
So he does. And Vic, who knows only--as the story makes abundantly clear but the movie doesn't--one kind of love: A BOY LOVES HIS DOG--for the first time in his parentless, debased, brutal existence, FEELS SOMETHING LIKE LOVE. It probably isn't love, but it is a primal urging that Vic cannot understand or relate to. Blood tries to warn him his dick is ruling their destiny, but VIC IS IN LOVE with the vague, burgeoning resonance of LOVE, and when Quilla June whacks him over the head, totally confusing him the way a teen-age girl in high school will flummox a football jock by spurning him, VIC GOES AFTER HER! Exactly as the elders from Downunder scoped it, and exactly as Quilla June planned it.
He has been suckered in to delivering himself into Topeka's milking machine.
QUILLA JUNE NEVER LOVED ANY GODDAM BODY!!!!
She is a thoroughly amoral, self-interested manipulator. Read about her reaction to her own parents in the novella. Note the way she treats Blood.
Where the hell did you get the lack of insight or common deductive ability to misread the movie so horrendously, Brian.
Quit school, kid. Go find a job in farming somewhere.
(You see, Zoe, we weren't kidding when we said this was an ongoing pain in the ass, trying to educate the shambling masses
who ought to have developed the most rudimentary analytical skills by the time they get to us. Clearly, you are the exception to the Clueless Brian Rule. You WANT to know, and you're neither affronted nor scared off. I got that feeling off you from your first, make that SECOND, post here, and I was right. You're okay, kid. I've decided to gift you and Justin with the cost of the caterer when you two sweet kids get back from killing everything overseas, and tie the knot. I feel just squishy all over that you two lovebirds have found a chunk of raw meat to share.)
I tried the umlaut thing--holding down the alt key and punching in either Lynn's 0239 or Zoe's 0235--and nothing happens. Little bells ring. That is yet ANOTHER bitch I got with you goombahs: you ASSUME everyone is as pc-besotted as you, and you leave out some basic instructions. And then you snarl WELL, EVERYONE E L S E KNOWS YOU HAVE TO DERANGELIZE THE FLOPMOP KEY BEFORE YOU OSTERIZE THE NUM LIK!!! So you get no umlaut over the e on this post, Zoe. Sorry, kid; I tried.
MELISSA: The code on ordering the I HAVE NO MOUTH CD-ROM game specifying no overseas orders (which doesn't mean Canada) is very explicable. When we--Susan I--got all the remaining stock of the game, after the production company Cyberdreams went belly-up and the CEO absconded with all the money, including my royalties, we had to move against the distributor, which was MGM. They settled with us, paid us a pittance, and we took the balance due--as much of it as they'd assume--in units of the game, plus sev eral thousand mouse-pads with my face on them. The one condition to the deal was that we not in fronge on sales of the game overseas, because that would leave MGM open to lawsuits. So we agreed.
I have to go tend to a meeting now. I'll finish this post with responses to Melissa, Cindy and Faisal when I return, in about an hour.
Yr. pal, Harlan ---- who doesn't have time to proof this, so
excuse any typos
Hey, Lynn, the team I Have No Bat, and I Must Bunt has a potential deal for ya...
I'm acting as Scotty's general manager.
Love to all, Melissa
Hey Brian,
Where are you? What part of the country?
We have the same thing going on in my town.
I'm all for encouraging folks to protect the historical value of their property, but when the city government puts teeth in their ordinances to afford them an iron fist of control, it's not cool.
Can you imagine a town that wants to tell you what sort of plants and trees you can put in your yard, how many and how tall they will be permitted to be?
An angry mob showed up when the council was to take the vote on the ordinance change. 300 people of the town's 2400. The council passed the ordinance anyway telling the people that they didn't understand it but it was for their own good.
It is now election time. Those who stuffed the ordinance down the throats of the people will now have to pay the piper.. well maybe they will. We will know on May the 4th.
Sounds like y'all need a change of guard too.
What did you specifically write that pissed the old bastard off?
Did you say you have a website? I'd be curious to see it.
Cindy
Justin---pardon me for interloping, but I'm guessing you mean "Special Forces". If that's the case, give www.specialoperations.com a look-see. There's a ton of good info on how to best plan for a shot at SF stuff, Rangers, etc. It's pretty complicated, reading through all the mil-speak stuff, but they have a lot of been-there-done-that types who can give you the straight poop on picking MOSs, schools,programs and the like to optimize your chances.
Good luck with it--it ain't easy, but then again it's not supposed to be.
Bermanator - Yeah, my 'solution' was facetious, but lets look at like this. Israel has never apologised for any of the attacks on Palestinians and the neighbouring arab nations. It doesn't need to and its previous goverments do not care too (though there seemed like hope during Moshe Sharett's time).
In fact, Israel has always done its best to stall most peace treaty. Look at the Lavon affair as the most insidious example. I gave references above, why don't you look at them.
Rob - your comments on Muslim nations in the middle east. For a start, having lived out there and continuing to have friends out there, I disagree with your assessement that most Muslims want Israel destroyed. Won't happen, its a fact of life that is accepted. What isn't accepted is the horrendous treatment of the Palestinian population.
And speaking frankly, you seem to be quite ignorant of the amount of flak, muslim counteries have taking for years concerning their lack of support of the Palestinians. Have you ever looked at magazines and periodicals from the Middle East in which you will find criticism not only of Israel's policies but also critiscism of certain goverment policy. A risky thing to do in some counteries where journalist who criticise the regime can be easily silenced.
Again, look at the reading list I gave above. If you have any texts that I think should be worth reading, yeah drop me a post. I'll look it up.
Justin - Yes, I do believe there can be peace in Israel. I may not believe in the lone gunman, alien visitors or the literary merits of Fay Weldon but peace out there, I do believe. There are good people on both sides trying to acheive a dialogue that gets lost in the corrupt political rhetoric.
Enjoy those waitresses.
FAQ
Mel just cuffed me in the head for my bad manners...
To both Chuck and Jay: How's things with you all?
Bag-O-Scott feels the brutal force of Politeness Man, in the hero's never-ending quest for manners and good behaviour
Got a little time before having to don the stripes for a few games.
This is where it is fun, Chuck; I'm doing novice and atom games today. For those uninformed, that means kids ages 7 - 10 years old. At that age most of the little shavers can barely hold themselves upright on their skates, much less get anywhere. You'd not see hockey at it best, but you'd see it at its funniest. And, it seems that the parents, coaches, and the kids are totally no pressure; enjoying hockey just for the fun.
Jay: I'm one for blame and apology where warranted by act, and so far I don't have any reason to fault a pilot's decision, albeit mistaken. As to Bush, yes, I've seen ball peen hammers with more going for them intellectually. If he'd like to save face, it would be a nice gesture for he to come and visit the victims families, although I won't hold my breath for occurrence.
On the subject of Ellison introductions, the one for "Angry Candy" hit hardest; events were quite similar to a circumstance I'd experienced about the time I'd first read it. The one for "Slippage" struck me with near the same force, out of a creeping sense of fear it brought about. Visceral enough to have had me taking a long look in the mirror for signs.
With that, I take my leave. Good Christ, I'm in sixth place in Webderland Park? What the hell has Mel done to me?
Referee Bag-O-Scott reminds all that you should keep your whistles clean...
Faisal, re: your chicken and egg solution-- Lynn called *ME* naive? So, a simple apology will lead to a "kiss and make up" scene. Sure. And then the Middle East will accept a Jewish state. OK. Got it. Please, write a letter to Colin Powell.
Bermanator
Jay,
You're thinking of the collection "Best American Short Stories of 1994," and indispensable collection each year. Somehow, they've managed to expand it to various genres without diluting the worth of the whole idea. I have a very good collection called "The Century's Best Sports Writing" which has some fantastic stuff in it, for instance.
Regards,
Joseph
Zoe:
Ellison's introductions (esp. in AC and Slippage) are as powerful as any of the stories. The Intro to "Angry Candy" still puts a knot in my gut, for personal reasons. My personal favorite story remains "The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore" from Slippage which through a series of powerful vignettes can smash you in the head or tickle you at the base of your neck. I also believe that story won another of Ellison's gajillion awards...either an American Short Story award or the Bestest Cool Story in the Universe award. I forget. (Anyone want to bail me out here?)
In other news: ANYONE ELSE out there see the commercial for Mike's Hard Lemonade with the paratrooping army of Yeti in the mall parking lot? My god, I nearly burst my spleen laughing so hard.
Scott - Thanks, buddy, but I take it personally when my leader does something stupid on my behalf, esp. in international politics. It's like we're royalty and can't afford to apologize for our mistakes. I know an apology is almost an admission of guilt and we CERTAINLY don't want that. So when Bush says "We send our deepest sympathies" assume its the royal "we" and consider the Apology of those of us who feel responsible.
Also, Israel appears like a well armed man backed into a corner by five big thugs whose sisters he humped and dumped. It's fightin' time 24/7 and sometime the big guns are gonna go off...soon.
I can't add much to the Israel-Palestine debate right now, because I am amazingly FURIOUS about how my local bit of Community Politics is going.
I'll give y'all a short description. There's this community group that wants to make my neighborhood a Historic District. A nuymber of people are against it: poorer renters, who expect rents to go up; landlords, who expect maintenance costs to go up, which pushes up rents; homeowners, who don't want a government agency telling us what to do with our houses; and me, because I know the guys pushing the proposal, and they are _gleeful_ over the prospect of siccing a city government agency against people who don't restore their houses to their tastes. So the stakes are high here.
A small group of us have organized another community group to oppose this. I've been doing most of the writing-- setting up a website, writing flyers, that sort of thing. I've also circulated drafts to everyone, asking for guidance, suggestions, whatever-- exercising a little editorial discretion, of course. All of my work has been getting a LOT of praise. People are telling me that the flyers I'd composed were far better written than anything they'd seen on the matter.
You'd _think_ that this would garner me some leeway, right? "Gee, Brian's done a great job, maybe we oughta trust his judgement a little?"
Nope. One of the big organizers of our group is a local landlord who seems to think of me as a lackey. So when he asks for a change, he won't hear a word of doubt-- and when I make a suggestion, he doesn't want to hear the arguments for it.
He's fond of shouting that I have to "Simplify! Keep it Simple!" And he likes to cite his having edited some journal years back as proof of his expertise. But this is propaganda, not an engineering manual, and _style is important_. I've also learned that his definition of "simple" is "what he says." He's turning into a royal pain in the ass, despite his qualities for the group, but this morning was really fuckin' infuriating.
I'd left a point in a poster that he didn't want there. My attitude was, the point was good, impportant, and needed. So he circulates an email to everyone talking about how he's tried to work without formal autority, but people are going off half-cocked, and potentially doing things that are damaging to our cause.
Now, the fact that this guy is talking about unnamed co-workers who are _unreliable_ ain't the best way to maintain _esprit de corps_. The fact that he's saying this about _me_ pisses me off.
And no, I am NOT getting paid for this. GNARGH!
Faisal,
"...let me contact someone at Menwith Hill who can, within three days, give me details of every Palestinian on Earth and then we'll phone them up and ask them. Howabout that? Satisfied?"
Absolutely. That'll do jus' fine.
For the record, my sources are more than just those I posted so far as my information base goes (among them being very close friends I once had from Iran). Whatever info I'm missing and however bias your OWN reponse may be let's simplify the problem: the majority of the Muslim world wants Israel OUT. So long as that's the case the violence will never cease. And the violence, in turn, will reinforce bigotry in all camps. The West is learning to concede its own mistakes (well...to SOME extent where it wouldn't before; don't worry, it's not getting off THAT easy); we're all criticizing Israel for ITS mistakes; I feel it's time for the Muslim nations to start growing up and conceding where they are in error too. Get past the idea of pushing Israel into the sea and all that follows will be a relative breeze (however simplistic THAT sounds I'll repeat it if you like). I think the international community would see to it; I think the left-wing Jews would see to it. Thus far most of what I sense from the Palestinians in particular is calculated martyrdom (and largely achieving effects they wanted). To whatever extent I'm right or wrong, to deny it flat out is to be locked in a lie and/or a fantasy.
And the core of my LOGIC has nothing to do with my "Jews killed Jesus" allusion (just something to exemplify a point) but Resolution 194 and Arafat's rejection when he had a chance to build a Palestinian state (please recall it was the liberal wing of Israel who allowed Arafat back - with the right intentions - to build a better relationship; HE blew it, friend...in a way that sent us a fairly unmistakable message). Though I've been quite critical of Sharon I'm convinced those problems provide adequate parameters to form some basic conclusions.
Your "black" analogy is inapt because you're still assuming I'm making a racial hit (b'sides, since there are plenty of gay blacks no such sample space as "all blacks hate gays" can exist). It's cultural. Can you understand the difference? Common characteristics shared by any culture - positive and negative, West, Middle East, Far East - are always open for a critical look. It is sound to say certain attitudes, sentiments and notions are intrinsic to given regions of the world.
In sum: not everything I stated was inaccurate.
But get back to me about those phone calls and we can get a good empirical analysis cranking...since NEITHER of us is being entirely scientific here.
Lynn-
That's so awesome, no way! From what I understand, even just being a student there I will most likely be urged to find housing in.... Lompoc! That's such a neat coincidence. Coffee'd be great - you'll have to fill me in on the 'small town' factor. I'll let you know, when I move, where I actually am living (there's a small chance I'll get on-base housing).
--Zoë Rose
Zoë~ Small world, indeed! My folks live in Lompoc and my dad works for Boeing on base! (Lompoc would be one of the bedroom communities for Vandenberg AFB). It is a beautiful base. You'll love it! It is small town America though, I'll warn you now. I graduated from High School there and met my high school sweetheart/first husband while his dad was stationed there.
Maybe we can get together and do coffee in July or something?
L.
Justin-
Thanks for the congrats, and I offer you the same, and good luck in ROTC. That's what I'm doing as well, up here in Duluth. Very small Detachment, only about 50-60. I've been in the program four years now, with a 3-yr scholarship so I've been contracted most of the time. You said you're going overseas - where? Is it study-abroad? In any case, I'm sooo jealous. Scuba School, huh... I had my scuba license while I lived in Miami, FL, and let me tell you - there's no feeling like feeling as if you're in free-fall, looking UP at the surface of the waves. It's.. incredible. Breath-taking. Good luck with that.
SF meaning Security Forces? That's what I wanted, after they dq'd me for pilot (too short, dammit!), but the Air Force is odd: I know! Let's put an unscientificly minded English major into the Space and MIssile program! Oh, well. I'm going to Vandenberg AFB in California in mid-June, should be there for about a year I think. Then it's probably back up here-abouts, to ND, WY, or MO - silo duty.
I applied to all the academies, but thank whatever power may be that I didn't get into any of them. I like having a real college life.
Lots of luck to you, Justin! Keep me posted on whatever you do!
--Zoë Rose
Oh, and Faisal,
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Sharon and Arafat. Perhaps it would be best to send them both to an island where they can pelt each other with cocoanuts.
Not practical, but one can dream.
Chuck
Well, when it comes to food for thought, this place always leaves me feeling stuffed.
First, I thought Scott was away for awhile, and I haven't been able to post every time I've dropped in here. Which sounds like a lame excuse. I have much admiration and respect for you, Scott and Melissa, and I hope all the running around you've both been doing has been at least a LITTLE fun. As for the "friendly fire" incident ("Freindly fire...ain't")I don't blame you, Scott, for feeling angry. I have no words for that. I can only tell you that sooner or later the truth will out. God, that statement is SO inadequate. Feel free to drop in any time. Unburden yourself. You'll find many a sympathetic ear (or eye) here.
I can't really answer Heather's question on *A* gay experience. But it is a good question.
As to the statement by Frank and others about the income level of gays, well, that may well be, but I and many others have heard the same thing from the local right-wingers, and asked, "Hey! How come *I* don't have one of those 50,000 dollar jobs? Where do I apply, huh? What a gyp."
I know Frank is anything BUT a right winger, but you know how the stiff-arm righties love to glom onto a single statistic and use that to prove their twisted thesis. By the way, about a year later the righties changed their minds and said that most gays were quasi-street people who were on welfare. Must have been a recession.
I think Frank just fumbled a little in his typing. He does that from time to time.
Israel & Palestine: It was once suggested, about the year 1850, that Massachussets and South Carolina should be towed out to sea until they cooled off, in order to avoid a civil war. Not a practical solution, however, even in the middle east.
I think that accusations of racism around here might be a bit overstated, unless bias that severe can be proven. I don't see anyone here as a racist. Biased, yes, but not racist. Everyone has a bias. It seems to come with being human.
It is a tragedy that people who are brothers under the skin are so dead set on annihilating each other. It is unfortunate that Rabin was assassinated by some idiot with a religious excuse. I think that one incident threw the whole process of peace out of whack. It certainly threw Israel off the path. Peres, I think, was seen as too much of a dove. Remember Natanyahu? Maybe nothing would have changed it Rabin hadn't died, but we'll never know that for sure, will we?
I am just sick and tired of living in a world where psychos make all the rules. Our over-the-counter medications and packaged foods are all "safety-sealed" all because tweny years ago, some sicko decided it would be fun to poison some Tylenol tablets. We watch our children closely, and shy away from the children of others because some unspeakable perverts abducted and sexually molested some kids. We'll never know if Lincoln would have made the union heal better than it did without him. We'll never know if JFK would have really amounted to anything. We'll never know if RFK would have been a decent leader. A nation with a president Nixon. Think about it.
A middle east that doesn't murder anyone who says, "Say, maybe if we just stopped killing each other...." What effect would that have on the whole world?
End of rant.
Chuck
"I'm not getting you down, am I? I'd hate to think I was getting you down." - Douglas Adams by way of Marvin the Paranoid Android
JAY - I will! Not right away, too much reading material at the moment and moving in two months anyhow. But I will get them. The two you said weren't fiction.. are they essays by HE, then?
I guess I could find out easily enough, now that I think about it, silly question.
Any suggestions on how to read, in the time allotted, two required-for-classes books and two for-fun-reading books, all at once, without confusing the characters? I dreamt last night that HE was yelling at me for thinking Knox was a black woman character from Brewster Place, who further was trying to slaughter the people of the world of Winter that Le Guin wrote about. GAH! When Ender got into the scene the dream faded off and I fairly cringed when I logged on to see if any new comments were on the board. Ah, the power of dreams.
Talk about too much pizza before bed.
--Zoë Rose
Faisal: Thank you for the wealth of information! I will read several of the books you've mentioned. As it stands, I honestly don't know enough about the situation to really be able to stand firmy behind any half assed opinion I have on the matter. All I know about the situation comes from the utter hopelessness I see on the news, so I shouldn't really be mouthing off. As Harlan says, people are entitled to their INFORMED opinions, and I should work harder on mine when it comes to this issue. Thanks again for the info. I'd like to read some titles that support the Israeli position as well, however. If anyone can name some books, please do. Anyway, I'm making a notation of the location of the Italian waitresses and the comic shop. Idea: Waitress sandwich whilst reading latest issue of Detective Comics in Italian, having the ladies translate for me betwixt moans of pleasure. Bliss.
Zoe: Cool! Congrats on your upcoming commssioning! Where are you going to be stationed? As for me, I'm a first year student in the ARMY ROTC program at the University of Arizona. I won't contract until I'm a Junior though, as I am spending the next academic year overseas. I'm not sure what I want for my M.O.S. yet, but I'm told that I'll have the opportunity to attend Scuba School after I contract. If I pass Scuba School (an iffy propostion. Let's just say I was never issued gills), that allegedly opens a lot of doors in the SF world. I really don't know if I have what it takes for SF though. My dad was an MP when he was an officer, and that always sounded like a lot of fun. The largest ROTC program here by far is the Air Force ROTC program, probably because of our proximity to Davis-Monthan AFB. A lot of Air Force cadets do Army P.T., so I see them most mornings and they seem like really good people, though the Army NCO's that run the P.T. sessions do harass them from time to time. Did you do ROTC, OCS, or the A.F. Academy? I understand the Academy is damn near impossible to get into, not unlike the Naval Academy (I understand Westpoint is easier to get into).
Zo-EE
Slippage and Angry Candy are worth owning and in print. The intro to AC alone is worth the paperback price.
Not to say Edgeworks or "Watching" aren't worth owning, but I'd just put the fiction first because there is already a lot of truth in those books. If that makes sense.
Jay
The Israeli myth of defensive offensive action
What I would ask all those who support the above thesis is that they go to the library and check out Stephen Green's 'Taking Sides: America's secret relations with a militant Israel' (1988, Amana Books) and the follow up 'Living by the sword - America and Israel in the Middle East 1968-1987' (1988, Faber & Faber).
For those curious to know about US relations with Palestinian groups I would say the best place to begin is 'One day in September' by Simon Reeve (2000, Faber & Faber) especially chapters 8-13 which cover the reasons behind Mossad's targetting of the people they believed were responsible for the Munich massacre. And yes, this was the spin off from the Academy award winning documentary which had a lot of material that was cut due to lack of space.
Off course, two indispensible readings are Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk and The Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky. For those who can find it Maxim Ghilan 'How Israel lost its soul' (1974, Penguin) is worth seeking. Joe Sacco's two volume comic book of Palestine is also worth exploring as it deals with the day to day living within the occupied terrortories. There are also works by Dilip Hiro, Said K. Aburish and a lot of others which I reccomend searching out when you have time.
To the question about Arab Israelis, yes they are Palestinians who got Israeli citizenship. This gives them an advantage in certain areas (i.e. able to stand for seats in the Knesset) but again, they do not have full rights that are accorded to an Israeli Jewish citizen (Who have got ethnic troubles of their own but thats another story...). BTW - Arabs getting Israeli citizenship is reputedly an extremely difficult process.
Justin - If your looking for Venice waitresses to bang, may I reccomend staying at the Armenian museum hostel just near the Plaza square. Theres a wonderful sea food resturant nearby where you will joyous young waitresses who might accomodate your needs. Also, next door a comic book shop, Solaris, where you can enhance your foreign language skills by reading all the latest comic books in Italian.
Alex - Yes you have a point about the treatment of Palestinians by the arab goverments. It is shamefaced and they have been betrayed plenty of times by them. It is only through domestic pressure from their own population that a fraction of aid can reach them. I might oversimplfy but the Palestinians are the gypsies of the middle east (look at Kuwait and Jordan for bloody examples...)
Rob - The comment about Arab anti-jewish feelings (and thats what I'm calling it as Palestinians are about as Semetic as Israeli jews) is somewhat flawed. For a start you operate under the assumption that Arabs hate Jews because they crucified Jesus. A fallacy if you know anything about Islam where Jesus (or Isa) was not crucified at all.
As to the comments concerning tolerance of Jewish populations in middle eastern counteries. Well, I've met Jews who have family in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. Their complaint is the same as Muslims and Christians who have to live under dictatorships who are only interested in building their own powerbases. I doubt that such attacks do not occur but have yet to see a study on it though from AI or HRW. If you know of one, please forward to me ASAP.
And don't take Saudi Arabia as an example of what the rest of the middle east is like. I grew up in Saudi Arabia, I know what kind of country it is and I know the rest of the middle east isn't like that. Unfortunately, I learnt a lot by my parents discouraging television, I presume this Barbara Walters is one such glass teat personality.
And as for the data you ask for when it comes to Palestinians opinions, what do you want me to do? Commission a market research company to get the definitive answer that you can knock back in my face. Why, let me contact someone at Menwith Hill who can, within three days, give me details of every Palestinian on Earth and then we'll phone them up and ask them. Howabout that? Satisfied?
At least you admitted your source was limited too just one person. If I took the same logic, maybe I too should think that Jewish people should be tarred with the brush of being trained to think from birth that Palestinans and all arabs are scum and the sooner we can give you a gun, the better the Holy lands will be.
Maybe again, by your logic, if I heard a black man say that he and his mates think all homosexuals should die, it would be Ok to think that all Blacks hate gays.
Oh, I will say one thing, I know that anti-Jewish feeling is on the increase due to Israels action... but when Syria started published 'The Protocols of Zion' in Arabic, the goverment couldn't even give them away.
I hope thats revealing.
Berman - Chicken/Egg situation. Heres a way to resolve it. Israel says we fucked up over the years, can we apologise and make it up. Then you have Palestinians doing the same.
The mechanics I leave to you.
FAQ
Whew-eee! Vietnam-story movies really tend to take it out of me. Went to see "We Were Soldiers" tonight (yes, yes, I know! I should read the book). Anyone else seen it? Thought it did a semi-all right job of not saying "Americans were right, Americans died, what a tragedy - Vietnam sucks, Vietnamese deserved what they got". That is, it at least attempted to be uniform in its sympathies. Anyone else seen it?
JUSTIN: You're getting a commission in the Army? When? Is it through school? I'm getting commissioned in the Air Force (I promise not to call you a grunt if you promise not to call me a wingnut) in about a month. And while I won't be getting my head split, I get an even dirtier job in some ways: missile duty. Woe is me... could I have seen (and soon read! I swear!) "Boy and His Dog" at a better time?
PA BERMAN and JAY: Dangit! I just checked out the entire EH collection at my library (all 7 books) so that I wouldn't be so friggin' ingnorant about references y'all make. And so I couldn't be accused of not reading the books anymore. ;) Go figure, I don't think any of the five stories/books you guys suggested are in there. I'll have to catch up and find them elsewhere. Thanks for the suggestions... slowly but surely, I WILL get to them!
The short stories I've read so far have been out of "Approaching Oblivion" and the one that sticks out the most is Knox. Made me shiver. And the intro by HE was amusing (as always) to read.
HEATHER- Sorry to hear... that is AWFUL.
That's it for now on my end. For any curious, it's alt 0235 for the over 'e' dots on PC, and option U E on a Mac.
--Zoë Rose
Damon Knight memorials:
Kate Wilhelm requests no flowers and that donations in honor of Damon can be
sent to:
Womenspace, (the address isn't listed because battered women are
sheltered there) Eugene OR US (541) 485-7262,
or
Food for Lane County
770 Bailey Hill Road
Eugene, OR 97402
541-343-2822
http://www.foodforlanecounty.org/
or
the Knight-Wilhelm Endowed Scholarship Fund.
http://www.msu.edu/~clarion/newsletter/friends.html
Clarion
c/o Mary Sheridan
E-193 Holmes Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48825-1107
National Public Radio coverage in Real Audio from April 17 All Things
Considered: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20020417.atc.18.ram
ALEX: Not only did I send it to David Mack, he saw it in person on a couple occasions and took photos. The young woman that David uses for the model of Kabuki has also seen it. David said it was the best Kabuki tattoo he's ever seen, and he was very flattered that I chose to ink my flesh with his creation. As you can imagine, it's something I'm quite pleased with, and it garners a lot of attention when I choose to expose it. The artist who did the inking, Tom Renshaw, is a world class tattoo artist who has won over 200 awards.
Well, well, well, sort of nice to see the wife having to use the oral Desenex lozenges to treat a case of athlete's tongue. All the same, she meant no harm. I've told her of the folks good karma.
Jay: No need for apology, mon ami. You did nothing wrong. I'm a bit leery of blame just yet, after getting a bit more information from friends of mine still in uniform. The scenario placed by their comments paints a more alarming picture, and even a mud-sucking grunt like I was is starting to shake his head at the decisions that the Canadian command may have made.
Apparently, here was a unit of the Princess Pats out in an active combat theatre, the possibility of hostiles on every mountain, firing lit tracers at 2 a.m. in a training exercise. If this is true, it could've drawn fire from any active Taliban scout unit in the area, let alone the attention of an F-16 pilot flying close support patrol, SOP in any active military operation. Moreover, this is real combat; what the hell were soldiers doing engaging in training in the middle of a combat area?
My real problem comes in communication. Wasn't the American C&C informed of the exercises, and in turn informed pilots flying patrol of the activities the Pats were engaged in? If they were unaware, who was derelict in the duty to keep the US C&C informed?
As to Bush, and his seeming faux pas, well, I do think this is where his lack of foriegn policy experience seems to really start to show. Twice he's been in situations concerning us where he should've shown more tact and diplomacy, especially in this unfortunate situation, and he wound up looking like a hick. Somebody buy the man a map...
Now, I've done a bit more looking into this, and the Canadian investigation is scheduled to deliver a preliminary report in 21 days, a full report in 60. That's one I really want to get a read. Simply, Jay, it shouldn't have happened, and the fear I have is instead of real admission of failures and subsequent real change in the SOP for allied personnel in combat areas, we're going to walk down this road again.
Damn, man, this one smells, and I don't think the US alone needs to take a shower.
Scott
JAY: "Earth Day: The Movie" can be viewed at: http://www.hypnotic.com/hypnotic.asp?content=films.asp?ID=487
but you have to register for Hypnotic (for free) first.
And now, to get away from a deep and troubling issue for a moment, here's one of the crassest things I've seen on the internet lately (not dirty, mind; just crass):
http://www.craptv.com/craptv/shorts/screenshot_heaven.html
Just to update you..
Hmm...lemma see. How can I start by setting the tone here? Ah yes.
SHIT SHIT SHIT.
You know that PetroCanada job I got this week? With the neat boss? Nnkay..it kinda went......OVER THERE. *laugh*
Poor Rob. (My boss.) He comes to me at the end of the shift tonight and tells me that the other store--that he ran and is getting out of to come to THIS one--has informed him that the new owner/manager is bringing his staff with him. Apparently, the Northgate owner-to-be just now decided that he's bringing some staff from HIS old store to Northgate. Problem is, that puts this woman, name of Verna, who's about 58, out of a job. There's more detail to it that I won't go into, but Rob had to come to me tonight and tell me..he didn't WANT to tell me..he's more upset about it than I could be, really..cos it put him in this idiotic position..that he wants to bring Verna to the current store. (My current location.)
So, in brief, in a sense, I'm out of a job.
Nice.
We talked about it. (As I say, I'm leaving out details but I agree with Rob that it's not fair for Verna.) And as it happens Rob knows another retail outlet that needs a fulltime days person.
That, as they say, is kinda lucky for me. I'm going down there Monday to see the guy and Rob says he's a lot like Rob so it may all work out.
I was busy being very supportive of Rob's situation--and I am, as I'm bloody ethical about stuff like this; as is Rob--and we talked at length about the whole situation.
Funny thing is.. now..since I left the store, I feel a little.. hmm...in shock..maybe? Like, CHRIST, why does stuff like this keep happening to me? Argh. Good job. Good boss. All set to settle down to some routine and then WHAM.
I'll be fine tomorrow. I have a strong feeling--due to Rob's description of this other/new boss I could have--that it will work out okay.
but STILL!
I'm getting too OLD for this shit. Did I mention that?
Heather *sigh*
And actually I'd like to ask Faisal if he thinks there is really a way out of this. It just seems too far gone to me, man. I mean, even if you give the Palestinians everything they want (and in many cases flat-out deserve), the resentments run so deep and go so far back that true and lasting peace between these two neighbors seems like a pipe dream.
...which is not to say that I disagree entirely with Faisal. That's the damnable misery of the situation, is that I think it's going to come down to us having to kill a whole lot of people who hate us and hate Israel, but certainly not for no reason. It's such a mess. And I probably shouldn't go around making remarks about camels and whatnot. I mean no offense, I just lapse into barracks talk sometimes. I do sympathize with the Palestinians and the Israelis alike, and I wouldn't put on my I'M WITH ISRAEL t-shirt with any great joy if it ever came down to that. Messier than Vietnam, and that's saying something.
I'm going to end up getting shipped over there to deal with that mess (or the consequences of it) one day, I just know it. But I'll be honest with you. If it's between the U.S., Israel and our allies, and our enemies in the Islamic world (all 125 millon or so that support Bin Laden)...all I can say is that I hope someone gets a few cell scrapings from a camel and preserves them in a lab so that the poor things don't go extinct. I'm a lot more partial these days than I used to be, even though the inescapable fact is that both sides are behaving like selfish children. Those assholes were going at it even before Harlan was born, for heaven's sake!
Personally, I don't see any end to it. EVER. All I can see is a full scale war in which Israel just levels Palestine, and we spend the next twenty years fighting off everyone in the Islamic world pissed at us (we're just a Jewish sewer to those people, no two ways about it) and pissed at Israel. Let's just face it. We'll probably end up doing it anyway, even if the situation doesn't escalate into a balls out war. It's like Carlin says, "Ancient hatreds and modern weapons. My kinda fuckin' show." I hope it doesn't come to that, but I'm prepared for it.
Why do you think I'm taking off next year to see the world a bit and hopefully not get kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives while I'm at it? Because I'm almost positive that when I get my commision I'm going to end up in an Army involved in a the biggest conflict we've seen since WWII, vastly bigger than Vietnam, so I figure I'd better bang an Italian waitress in Venice before I run off to get shot in the face by a 12 year old with a Kalashnakov. The right and wrong of any larger war that springs from this Israeli/Palestinian conflict might not be as clear is it was 57 years ago, but nobody said life was going to be easy. I just don't see any way around it. I just know I'd rather that my kids live in a world where they're free to chow on McDonald's Toadburgers whilst watching cartoons. It's not a perfect world, but it's worth fighting for, if it comes to that.
Either way, speaking in the short-term, I don't know how much longer we have before we get hit again, given the current situation. Not 9/11 scale, but some dingbat is gonna do something, what with all this business going on.
Brian,
"...the fantastically-armed Israel..."
It NEEDS to be. Of course Israel only expanded boarders whenever it was attacked. In the war of '48 when Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Transjordan and Syria launched a combined assault and in '67 when the Soviet Union had some involvement. Unless you feel Israel SHOULD be toppled and wiped out I wouldn't want any of those Muslim states to have that much armed capability. They would show FAR less tolerance toward Israel than what little many among us seem to be saying Israel has shown the Palestinians.
And why are you responding to Alex's points? I put a question to you before that I think is worth some weight: given the few options (and consider the factors I brought up in my first post)Israel has what what YOU do?
Zoe -
2 suggestions...well, three actually
Get "Angry Candy" and "Slippage" for fiction.
Get "Harlan Ellison's Watching" and the first Edgeworks book for essays and nonfiction.
...er, that's 4.
Sorry, no lesbian stories here, either, unless you count second-hand and "just-on-the-other-side-of-the-wall" stories.
Time for a beer and an "Evil Dead" marathon with the guys.
HEY JOSEPH! Ever heard of a short film called "EARTH DAY: THE MOVIE"? Apparently its a video version of Twisted Mego/Toyfare Theater.
Jay
Cindy,
A) VX2000? Drool......
B) Final Cut Pro is bodacious beyond belief. Adobe better have something real special planned for Premiere 7, or they're goign to completely lose the video market. Hell apparently the Avid people are concerned as hell.
C) I'm tempted to send the "Cadallic sumbitch" comment to Apple. They'd probably enjoy the compliment. Especially since it's apt.
Regards,
Joseph
Interesting post script to the lng-forgotten dead baby signs...
They've come down. For the last week, the theme has been "ABORTION INCREASES RISK OF BREAST CANCER!"
Of course, no breasts to illustrate the point, thank Allah.
Mr. Ellison, sir: The bloody digit arrived today in the post. What a delight! I've put it on the mantle between James Doohan's and Jerry Garcia's. :)
Thanks again.
Scott,
I don't want to set you off about the recent mishap between a Weekend Warrior F16 and some perfectly decent and innocent Canadian soldiers, but I wanted to express my sincere disappointment at President Bush's failure to issue an apology and instead offer "our" condolences. We should have been more forthright to our closest friend, apologized and asked what we could do to make it right.
Just my humble opinion.
Off to enjoy der weekender...
Jay
BRIAN: First off, SQUEE! is good, I've never seen INVADER ZIM, but it looks cool--but Vaszquez's JOHNNY THE HOMICIDAL MANIAC ("Call me 'Nny' for short.") is flippin' HILARIOUS!
I wouldn't assign the Arab states any more culpability than simply providing aid, were it not for the two-faced manner in which they either vociferously or weepingly argue the plight of the poor Palestinians; "our brothers", yet treat the Palestinians in their own states as second-class citizens, as well as having coerced, cajoled, or outright FORCED Palestinians to leave their countries for the happy life of a refugee camp in the disputed territories (As Jordan, Syria, and Saudi Arabia did in the Seventies). You can't spit on your cake, and praise it, too.
(And the award for Worst Possible Aphorism goes to ...)
I can understand your distaste for the "dagger at our loins" argument, seeing what came of the Monroe Doctrine, Manifest Destiny, and the Domino Effect--and for the reason of it being terribly THE SUN ALSO RISES scary.
But I don't really know that it would even apply to the proposed Palestinian state--after all, if it were fixed in place, what reason would Israel have to attack it, unless there was an actual attack on Israel mounted through the proposed state? And driving a country back into its closest allies is not so bad a fate as driving another country into the sea.
I know I harp on this, but I just think that there should be a part carved out of the once Transjordan. I think that the original terms of the dissolution of the British Mandate over Palestine, in which there was to be created an Arab and a Jewish state both out of the land of Palestine, with Jerusalem (or "al-Quds") to be under the auspices of the UN, is perhaps the most workable of all plans made for the region.
By the by, here are a couple sources that you might find interesting.
The State of Jordan's official history with regard to Israel and Palestine can be found at http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_palestine.html
A British view, detailing the White Papers and all the machinations which went on leading up to the end of the Mandate, is at http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/557-0.htm
And a more Israel-centric view of how the Jordanians and Palestinians have regarded and treated each other is at http://www.hf.uib.no/smi/pao/nevo.html
Of course, I've always thought that the best argument for Israel's legitimacy as a better country was the fact that they field a pretty damn good basketball team ...
I ought to reply to a few of Alex Berman's points.
"I STILL don't understand why no one seems to hold the Arab states responsible for their own treatment of their brothers and sisters the Palestinians, and I still don't understand why no one, when discussing the situation, lays any culpability on the Arab states for their goading of and arming of the more militant Palestinian factions. But that's as may be."
Well, how much responsiblity should they bear? The comment about Arab "brothers and sisters" is sort of oversimplistic; it's a bit like talking about Europeans as an undifferentiated group, disregarding the mutual histories of Germany and Poland, Germany and France, France and England...
As for arming the factions, no quibble there-- except to state that Israel is the beneficiary of greater amounts of aid from the U.S. And many of the Arab states are also beneficiaries as well.
"Another thing that people tend not to take into account when saying what should and should not happen in the region: Israel, sans the West Bank, is in three places less than nine miles wide, from border to sea. If a full handover of the disputed territory were ever mandated by NATO or the UN or the USA or any outside body, that outside body would be, in effect, responsible for the murder of a sovereign state."
I'd disagree, for lots of reasons. The first is that this very same argument could be applied equally well to a hypothetical Palestinian state. It'd be even _smaller_, and unlike the fantastically-armed Israel, it'd be a country building itself up from a county-sized ghetto. (I'd also disagree because I'm suspicious of "dagger at our loins" arguments, for various reasons.
As a matter of fact, turnover of the conquered land _has_ been mandated by the U.N.-- the international consensus has been for Israel to retreat back to its pre-1967 borders. (I'd also like to mention that the narrowness of Israel in those days didn't seem to keep it from winning wars and expanding its territories.)
On a lighter note, I've just discovered Jhonen Vasquez's wonderfully sick comic _Squee_. From the man who gave us Invader Zim.
The umlaut for the ï is done by holding down the Alt key and pressing 0239. For most PCs (macs have nifty pre-keystrokes to put in diacriticals), you can go to the Start Menu, go up to Accessories, and look for the Character Map application. (Sometimes they hide it under System Accessories). With it you can do all sorts of nifty characters: ©,™,®,†,«,»,§,¥,¤,£,¢,°,±,¶,½,¾,¿,ñ,é, and my favories œ, æ & Æ.
Being a leader means knowing what your presence means to the people you're responsible for governing. The ones that like you and the ones that don't. In politically tenuous times, if, by your deliberate actions, you knowingly incite mass violence (by putting yourself in the most offensive position you can possibly contrive), I think you are in part responsible for the reaction to your actions. Imagine Mengele showing up at the Holocaust Memorial just to take a look around. Would the negative reaction be justified? Would a violent response be justified?
L.
Zoe Rose: My advice-- Get a hold of DEATHBIRD STORIES. Read "The Deathbird." That was the story that convinced me that Harlan Ellison was ... words fail me. Suffice it to say, I expose my students to him whenever I can sneak him in. If you read it, tell us what you think. I'd love to hear your reaction.
Alex Jay: OK, I'll be "that other Berman." You can be the smart one, I'll be the good looking one.
Gotta stop posting. Procrastination makes me verbose.
Bermanator
Ya know what? I am naive. I can't even bring myself to kill bugs that are in my house. So no, I can't "understand" or "comprehend" Palestinian violence. No more do I understand "state sanctioned mass murder." As I see it, mass murder is being perpetrated by both sides, though, and someone is sponsoring all of it. Racism exists on both sides. You (meaning every one of us) have your reflexive sympathies; you can make a case for your side. You'll have to ignore a good bit of the valid anguish of the other side, but for some reason, that seems to be the easy part.
Lynn: Israel electing Ariel Sharon does not make suicide bombing understandable any more than electing George Bush makes 911 understandable. Would you dig being blown up because of stuff Bush does? For me personally, I would find that wildly ironic. I try not to mistake the government for the people.
Faisal: Yeah, re: the violence--"it started somewhere." I think you'll find opinions rather at a variance if you try to assign WHO started it. Chicken, egg, you know the drill.
Bermanator
Joseph,
I use a Sony VX2000. For editing a sony vaio system with Premiere 6. But I've heard the Final Cut Pro 3 on a G4 is a Cadillac sumbitch.
Premiere works well but it is tough to figure out initially.
The Sony is my favorite possession of all times.
Cindy
DAN: Nice. Both pics in the montage look to be from #1 of the new series; where Mack redrew a lot of the scenes from Kabuki: Dreams and Circle of Blood. Thumbs way up to the tattoo artist.
Did you send Mack a copy? He appreciates seeing that sort of thing.
By the way, may anyone recommend a good reference for learning spot color and CMYK in Adobe Illustrator (versions 9-10)? Book or online, either one.
Regards,
Joseph
The new Neil Gaiman book, Adventures in the Dream Trade, has a couple HE articles: Banging the Drum for Harlan Ellison (7/99 Readercon 11 reprint) and Intro. to Beast that Shouted Love... For you completists (you know who you are, right Barney). The book is from NESFA press and sells for $26. It is limited and if you're lucky you might find some signed copies.
Actually, it's wasn't your actions that might've seemed a snub; it's my phrasing. I'm sorry for the comment, and the way it was worded. I got to realize this in a phone conversation with the husband just after posting. He repeated what he told me yesterday, including FEELING HE HAD PERHAPS MADE SOME SMALL OR LARGE INSULT TO ONE AND/OR ALL. I capitalize this to display that extremely rare occurence when I'm wrong. I couldn't fall back on implying he'd not said it; my mother and father were witnesses.
The worst part is hearing that little rise in his voice that tells me he is enjoying my mistake. Believe me, he'll get his.
Please accept my apology, honestly and humblely. Next time I'll listen before saying something slightly stupid.
Love to All, Melissa
Regarding David Mack and Kabuki, I have a spectacular (I think it is, anyway) Kabuki tattoo. You can see it at the following url:
http://home.talkcity.com/BookmarkBlvd/lamp_shadey/indextattoo.html
In the spirit of full disclosure, Mr. Lee's tiger art is in all black - all color is mine.
Regards,
Joseph
Alex,
And Andy Lee has also done work on "Kabuki," so the friendly nepotism continues....
Cindy,
I'm using home camcorder at the moment, saving for a Canon XL-1. Editing using Final Cut Pro 3 on a G4.
WE LOVE SCOTT!
Cindy
Hey Joseph,
I'm working on short film now. I'm trying to line up some monkey footage. I also have a feature length screenplay, want to read it? I'm trying to get all the input I can at the moment because I'm going to be entering the Austin Film Festival's screenwriting competition.
In fact ANYONE that wants to read it would be MOST appreciated. Those who would like to, I will send you the first ten pages and after that you tell me if you want to see more. I think you will. My son and his college friends made fun of his roommate because he stayed up until 3AM reading it. He said he couldn't stop. Then they read it and said they couldn't put it down either. This from college boys.
Any takers?
Joseph, what sort of equipment are you using and will you be editing it yourself? Have you done anything with soundforge?
Y'all let me know!
:)
Cindy
<
JOSEPH/MELISSA: Andy Lee's artwork can also be seen in this month's issue of ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM-UP--he contributes some great breushwork in a set of framing sequences that serve as Chinese fairy tale and allegory for the Ultimate Marvel version of Shang-Chi: Master of Kung-Fu. I assume this is a welcome bit of friendly nepotism: The rest of the artwork is by Rick Mays, a longtime collaborator of writer/artist David Mack, who supplies the cover art. Mack and Lee are best friends, and Mack is good friends with series writer (and, like Harlan, nice Jewish boy from Cleveland) Brian Michael Bendis.
Melissa,
Actually, I though Scott was stepping back this week because of work commitments. Didn't mean to seem like I was snubbing him.
As for my logo, thanks for your thought. The color is actually preliminary until I can teach myself spot color in Illustrator - then I'll be trying for a celtic gold-red-green look. The logo is one of seven that we commissioned from the fabulous Andy Lee, of Paperbrush Studios in Atlanta. He does lovely work with Buddhist calligraphy techniques. Really, I'm fiddling around with scans of the seven paintings, trying oput different combos (you can see one as my logo on the fantasy league). For more examples of Mr. Lee's work, check this out:
http://www.nohtv.com/andylee/gallerymain.htm
Regards,
Joseph
Melissa/Scott: I did post the names of the Princess Pat's light infantry earlier, but neglected to mention that that's who the four were. About the only, very minor good thing that came out of it for me was that it caused me to do some reading up on the Winnipeg Grenadiers, the Second Canadian Division, and other Canadian military groups that got badly used. There's a fine Alden Nowlan poem about Canadian troops in WWI; I think I'll probably try to find it tonight.
Jon
You guys are putting WAY too much content on this board for me to keep up, especially in my time of diminished ability to visit the site and read all the posts.
I noticed but did not digest all the responses so far to Brian's objections to the movie of "A Boy and His Dog," so forgive me if I repeat some of them, but I wanted to get right to it before another day or week goes by.
As someone already said, Ellison did NOT write or make the movie. It is only based on one of his finer stories -- a novella, to be precise. The part of the movie you liked best, Brian (the "back and forth between Vic and Blood"), is in fact the part that Ellison actually did write, before the director L.Q. Jones took over the script. To hold Ellison primarily responsible for what is, at best, a so-so if memorably quirky movie rendition of his story would be like holding Bradbury responsible for Truffaut's cold rendering of "Fahrenheit 451" or Hemingway for whoever made that syrupy version of "A Farewell to Arms."
Several people have also addressed your objection to the girl falling in love with Vic after one night in the boiler. Quite apart from the way real people can tumble hard and fast on much less contact and acquaintance out here in the real world, let me put it this way: Both of these characters inhabit a very circumscribed and artificial world, by our standards -- Vic in one of great violence and a hard scrabble for survival, Quilla June in one of crushing politeness, social niceties ... and utter hypocrisy. The searing honesty and NEWNESS of passionate fucking (accent on the passion for him, the fucking for her) would tend to make them respond strongly to the experience.
"Innovative but bad" is not an overly harsh judgment of this movie. I can let you keep it. But for gosh sakes don't stop there as your assessment of the work of Harlan Ellison! If you feel like exploring a little further, several people here and I would be happy to recommend a handful of pieces, fiction and nonfiction, that are likely to blow your mind.
I hope none read Scotty's post as an indictment; he was just blowing off a bit of steam. My father was in the CAF too, and they're both a bit dismayed at this occurrence, and want to see the right thing come of this for the victims and their families.
I find it interesting that, since Scotty's little tiff with Mr. Ellison, suddenly people don't seem to speak to Scott very much. Leaves one thinking...
Now, as to Joseph's logo, I do like it. Did you create it yourself, or was it done for you? If there was anything I might change, it would be the color. Sorry, but I see tigers as orange and black.
The children are hitting the door, so that's it from here. Have fun all. Melissa
FAISAL: By the by, I DO hope that my (mostly) pro-Israel screeds don't come off as didactic and wholly one-sided; I know that your posts certainly do not at all.
LYNN: Actually, rubber and plastic-bead bullets are de rigeur for Israeli troops in most situations.
Dunno if that's still the case with the intifadeh, but that's what it was as late as February.
And I happen to think that Sharon's being elected was the worst thing ever to happen to the State of Irael. I'd like Shimon Peres to head the government again--though his name may mean "Hawk," he's at heart a man of peace.
Funny thing is, most of the Israelis I know are for peace, whereas most of the Americans I talk to (of any religion) are very much for a swooping down on the fold and kicking the Palestinians out.
I STILL don't understand why no one seems to hold the Arab states responsible for their own treatment of their brothers and sisters the Palestinians, and I still don't understand why no one, when discussing the situation, lays any culpability on the Arab states for their goading of and arming of the more militant Palestinian factions. But that's as may be.
And as Jim said, a separating wall is the worst idea that could happen to the region. What you have to remember is that the bombings and attacks and whatnot by Palestinians only started really getting to epic proportions after a goodly part of the contested West Bank and Gaza Strip were apportioned off to the Palestinian Authority.
Another thing that people tend not to take into account when saying what should and should not happen in the region: Israel, sans the West Bank, is in three places less than nine miles wide, from border to sea. If a full handover of the disputed territory were ever mandated by NATO or the UN or the USA or any outside body, that outside body would be, in effect, responsible for the murder of a sovereign state. Surrounded by countries whose stated aim is to "push Irael into the sea" or "wipe it off the face of the earth," Israel would, if forced to give up the West Bank, be soon looking at its own death warrant.
Any way you look at it, both sides lose.
And what REALLY angers me is that the road to dusty death and destruction is awash in the blood of men of war who changed their minds and changed their ways, like Sadat and Rabin and the president of Lebanon who was succeeded by his brother after his assassination in the Eighties. Can't remember the name at the moment ...
A coworker with whom I've grown quite friendly is of Palestinian-American descent. She is for a Palestinian state, just as I am pro-Israel. She bemoans Arafat as I bemoan Sharon. And both of us commiserate over the actions of "our" countries which are not truly "ours" ...
P.A. BERMAN: "ANOTHER Berman," am I? Pfft! I, you'll remember, was the FIRST Berman, as far as this board goes ...
LYNN AGIN: I'd dispute the "anti-Arab media"--at least when it comes to the Palestinians. Christine Amanpour of CNN has always been an advocate of the Palestinians, as have much of the CNN staff.
(Having a bias in the journalistic world these days is, I suppose to be expected, though I had much rather it not be consciously acted upon--but I lost all respect for Amanpour when she did a heart-rending piece with the families of ethnic Bosnian Muslims burying their dead as backdrop ...
... in a graveyard that had nothing in it but Serbian Orthodox crosses.)
Faisal: The thing that I don't get is that there are and have been for a long time, Israeli Arab members of the Knesset. What's the difference between an Israeli Arab and a Palestinian? That's always confused me.
And may I amend your suggestion to a blanket, "STOP KILLING!"?
LYNN AGIN AGIN: The way I se it, Heyerdahl died a week ago, when first he slipped into the coma. I just started my fifty-year-old paperback copy of KON-TIKI today.
(And hey--when are you going to get Cafe Press to offer dead gopher stuffed animals?)
Lynn,
That comes out of my pocket. *grin* Anyway, I'm filing as Type S Corporation, so having my partner's proceeds go directly to KICK would be interesting to explain.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph~ Cool logo, but how much of your proceeds go to KICK, huh? Huh? Okay, then. ::grin::
As for the mention of Mr. Heyerdahl, geez, I should keep up better with the board. Somedays it just slips away.
Gone to lunch,
L.
Lynn,
Actually Thor's passing was mentioned previously on the board. Sucks, don't it?
And when y'all going to buy shirts to support my burgeoning film company, Celtic Tiger Films. Help me make documentaries and short films! Hell, anyone in the Chicago area who wants to be in my planned short for next year "Opening Day" (examining the culture and impact of Opening Day for both teams in Chicago), feel free to contact me. Anyway, tell me what you think of my lofe. I really am looking for good feedback:
www.cafepress.com/celtictiger
And speaking of baseball, I'm going to indulge in a little smack-talking: how about that sweep, Cleveland fans? BWAHAHAHAHA!
Regards,
Joseph
LYNN:
No, it's pronounced like it rhymes with the name Joey: Zo-ee. That's what the dots are for. Yes, I know the real name for them, but as I'd mangle the spelling beyond recognition, I won't try. But they're not umlats, in any case. It's a Greek name meaning Life, in case you're interested.
I've had lots of folks tell me they had a dog named Zoë... at first I used to be insulted, and even asked my parents if they named me after a dog. Turns out, they named me after a book about cats. Go figure. Anyway... great taste in names, Lynn!
Glad I stayed.
--Zoë Rose
Damn, I almost forgot! NEW PRODUCTS FOR WEBDERLANDERS!!!
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland/
Cafepress has added some great new products for a limited time only! FROSTED MUGS(the really big ones that make for perfect rootbeer floats), STAINLESS STEEL TRAVEL MUGS(perfect for bashing potential road-ragers over the head), and GOLF SHIRTS! Golf shirts, with collars, suitable for wearing in respectable company! So get your cool Webderland schwag now and remember:
Five dollars from each item you purchase goes to the KICK Internet Piracy Fund.
L.
We now return you to reality, already in progress.
Brian,
I agree with your points wholeheartedly. They align with the argument I was making for some time prior to the Resolution 194 proposal and Yasser Arafat's rejection of the extensive land agreement Israel offered to build an independent state with no counter-offer. The notion of land (or anything else) as some divine gift ordained by a Supreme Being (evidently a bias one) is a primitive concept and a historical trigger mechanism for war. But these two outcomes have swayed my view for the time (I'm always learning something knew on this issue). No compromise is voiced by the Arab countries; they remain - it seems to me - steadfast on the one goal of dissolving Israel entirely. So long as this is the case - so long as they cling to this fantasy world - they impede a path to diplomacy. The Hamas conducts its rain of suicide bombings (compelled by the sick, twisted idea of the gift of Eternal afterlife for the act), in effect, waging war on Israel. It doesn't leave Israel with a LOT of options. What would YOU have them do? They've been driven to dismantle the terrorist groups just as we have in Afghanistan. Given that military action alone will not resolve the situation - diplomatic strategies will HAVE to be incorporated, something Sharon doesn't appear to understand (he's tightening an unbreakable circle) - the steps Israel had to take going after the Hamas were warranted. Let's say Israel had stopped their attacks at Arafat's pleadings early on. They declare cease-fire and try diplomacy (for the billionth time). What happens? The suicide bombers continue deliberatly murdering innocent civilians. Again: what would YOU have Israel do? What kind of alternatives have the Palistineans given them? If you're in a position to condemn someone for his acts you must have the better alternatives ready to put on the table.
The struggle by Jews for a Jewish state in Palestine had begun in the late 19th century and had become active by the 1930s and 40s. The militant opposition of the Arabs to such a state and the inability of the British to solve the problem led to the establishment of the UN Special Committee on Palestine. The plan was devised to divide Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an internationally administered zone. The General Assembly adopted the recommendations in 1947 or '48 (forgot which). The Jews accepted the plan; the Arabs rejected it. Simplistic as it sounds, in the ideal world, I don't think the Jews should have gone there to begin with (particularly using the Biblical argument as a basis). Yet, at the time, deep anti-Semitic sentiment throughout Europe and the U.S. denied the Jews options (even in light of world sympathy upon discovery of the Nazi death camps) . They could have gone to the U.S. The U.S. didn't want them. The British didn't exactly open its doors. You can always count on France on copping out. Where else were they to go?
Nations everywhere have taken land unjustly at some point in history. The U.S. was a voracious, greedy, murderous predator throughout the 19th century. But cultures evolve in a tortuous path over time when they find resolutions and cooperation lead to a better life for everyone. People slowly mature. Israel is there; it won't pack and move. It's time for the Arab world to mature a little and learn to accept that one fact. When they do it will be Israel's turn to ante up (even though they already tried to do so).
Faisal,
Mine wasn't a thesis so much as a reaction to the events I cited above. There are probably many holes in my present assumptions. But my indictment was not racist; it was cultural. My sources - limited though they are - come from conversations I had with an Iranian (I know: Iranians aren't Arabs; but they ARE Muslim) and Barbara Walters' recent visit to Saudi Arabia (note their "Religious Police"). If those Muslim countries are more diverse in their perception of Jews than I've implied give me examples. Prove to me the majority reject notions like "Jesus killed the Jews". To make another point, Israel has its members of government who sympathize with the Palestinians; tell me how many Palestinians (or ANY of the Muslim countries) offer the like to the Jews.
Yes: at this point I'm convinced those countries of the Middle East are terribly brainwashed and bigoted with corrupt leaders reinforcing it all. If you know otherwise, enlighten me. Don't give me your philosophy on it. Just the data (bearing in mind I think the psychology is inherent to the Middle East not Arabs and Muslims EVERYWHERE; it’s not like I go into an Iranian market here and glance at people behind the counter with the same sentiments. I get angry by news of Mosques being assaulted just as I do when Synagogues are assaulted. I’m not walking around with a brand if you can understand that).
Now you can tell me what I’m missing.
Zo-uh? Not Zo-ee? ::grin:: My very first, most cherished canine companion was an Ibizan hound named Zoë. And I'm glad you stayed. You fit in here.
You guys!!! You're falling down on the Obit-Watch!! Thor Heyerdahl passed away yesterday. He was the explorer of both Kon-Tiki and Ra II fame. A great man. Got me hooked on National Geographic when I was a wee'un. I can almost hear the news reports.
"Intrepid explorer Thor Heyerdahl arrived in the Afterlife today, announcing that with Charon's help, he hopes to seek out the source of the River Styx. And when that's accomplished, he hopes to cross the Sea of Dreams using only an eggshell and a sow's ear for a sail."
L.
L.
I have heard plenty of comments concerning Israel's right to pursue its policy of ethnic repression against the Palestinians and there is an easy answer to it.
STOP KILLING PALESTINIANS! Give them rights, human rights! You know the same rights that an Israeli citizen has. To walk away and claim that the conflict is beyond resolution - fine. I'll keep writing, researching and protesting thank you very much. Sometimes, I think if one side was darker than the other, maybe people won't be so content sitting on the fence about it.
As to my bias... well, interestingly enough, I don't see any merits to Israels action when it comes to shooting up ambulances, legal torture, death squads and secterian murder. You see, I rather have the same feelings when an Islamic country does that kind of thing. Its something in me that just kicks in and goes "Now thats wrong".
Not that I'm saying that those that elevate themselves to Palestinian leadership are saints. In fact, I don't have much respect for them either. I don't have much respect for PLO terrorist operations or the suicide bombings carried out by the other groups but you see... I can comprehend them (read that I said 'comprehend' I did not say 'condone'). As much as I can understand why the Israeli military and society can be so nasty towards Palestinians.
(Oh gosh, yes! For FAQ also knows Israeli and Jewish folks who make no secret of what they like and dislike about Israeli society)
But one set of actions did not appear without the other and anyone who has any pretensions of respect for the human rights of their fellow being regardless of race, religion, colour, politics or sexuality should not be quietly condoning a policy of state sanctioned mass murder.
FAQ
Whaddaya know, I got the two dots over my name! Neat-o. Wonder if it'll show up on the post... anyway, just thought I'd put in my own acronym (I work in a planetarium and have found this one remembered by several kids who visit more than once) for the planets:
Many Very Early Men Just Sat Under-Neath Pluto.
--Zoë Rose
Hey all. In for a bit, then off to don the stripes for three games. The money's about the only thing good in it.
Bit depressed, as a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html
Don't quite know what to think yet, but somebody's got some massive explaining to do. Personally, I'll be very wary of American findings in this matter, and even more suspicious of the US Air Force admitting culpability, if it is found to be their fault. But then, how could it be the Canadian servicemen at fault? They were on a live fire training mission, doing their jobs.
Gonna leave before getting angry. I know, none of you are to blame.
Scott
Oh, Be A Fine Girl (Guy), Kiss Me
Hertzsprung-Russell star types, in order -- OBAFGKM. Our Sun is type G.
King Phillip Came Over From Germany, Stoned
Biology classifications, in order -- kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species
JON: Thanks. That's one less word I'll mangle in the future.
The only acronym I can think of is the one for the electromagnetic spectrum, RIVUX G. (Radio, Infrared, Visible, Ultraviolet, X-Ray, and Gamma.)
FINDER: Um, I don't want to sound like I'm singling you out, but you DID bring it up, after all: Why still a virgin at 33? And have you ever thought of hiring a professional to, ahem, "break you in"? (I'm sure I'll get some flack for suggesting this, but what the hey...)
Not matter how contentious things may get here, this board is still better than the snakepits of usenet. We send each other FLOWERS after an argument, for Chrissakes!
PA~ I never ridiculed you for advocating peace. I did, however, lecture you because your post was incredibly naive for someone who should have been paying closer attention. (And I quote, "Why wouldn't non-violent resistance work for the Palestinians?") I pointed out that in some cases, holding hands and singing songs gets you shot. That simple. Peaceful protests have been tried and have failed. Don't expect them to keep lining up to be shot.
My other point was that if you elect General Hawk to rule your country, don't expect him to act like a Dove. Violence is never a solution, I agree. I never stated otherwise. But it is understandable in this situation. You can only poke a dog with a sharp stick for so long before it whirls and bites your hand off. Just don't act surprised when it happens.
***I reiterate, neither side is pure of heart in this conflict. *** But personally, I'm sick of seeing the Western, anti-Arab media overlook blatant human rights abuses by the *last* country in the world we'd expect that kind of behavior from.
L.
Mary's Violet Eyes Made Jon Stay Up Nights Pining.
And how could I forget Mr. ROY G. BIV?
Jim Davis: Engvall, yes.
Jon Stover: ....Just Served Us Nine Pies... was how I always heard it. Here's one from my armory: ICBM - Incisors, Cuspids, Bicuspids, Molars.
Jim: Just remember, "There's always a rat in separate." For some reason, that mnemonic (if that's the correct term, as I think mnemonic may only correctly apply to acronymical phrases like All Good Boys Deserve Favour or My Very Excellent Mother Just Said Unlikely Names Persist) has always worked.
Jon
P.S. Before someone says 'What the?', please note that I made up that mnemonic for the solar system just now (and badly) as the 'real' mnemonic slipped my mind, although the planets didn't. Ha!
Lynn: Please, don't assume that, because I disagree with you, I am less educated about this issue that you are. Don't lecture me. You will not convince me that Israel is the evil villain here and the Palestinians the virtuous victims. It's not that easy and you're not going to convert me with your polemics. You are becoming an illustration of how irrational and divisive this issue can become-- you are ridiculing me for advocating peace. My god.
Call me naive, but I think advocating violence to answer violence is circularly absurd, self-defeating, and plain old ineffective. If you think of suicide bombings, tanks, and gunfire as workable solutions, you're the one who has been living in a hole. Fighting isn't going to solve this, and even if it could, I don't think anyone would relish the outcome. Someone's got to choose peace sometime or the bodies of innoncents will keep piling up. The whole thing sickens me-- both sides. I can't believe there is any other rational reaction.
I wish we could not find OURSELVES fighting about this issue. It helps nothing, just feeds the rage that's fucking up the world. It's ridiculous. So please, relax. We're not doing some sort of Yom Kippur War reenactment on here.
Also, there is another Berman on here, so you might wish to distinguish between us.
Bermanator
Hi there and sorry; didn't want to interrupt all you fine folks but I haven't been able to find PAB's email address, so I gave up and decided to clutter up the board a little.
Mr. Berminator, you may not remember me at all but I had a pleasant online "conversation" with you a long while back and would appreciate it if you would drop me an email.
Thanks!
sam_reed_approximately@hotmail.com
Again, sorry to interrupt everyone else - won't happen again!
Kind Regards,
Sam
LYNN: You're thinking of Bill Engvall. Not a bad comedian, but Hicks is on a whole other level. He died in 1992, but his work is enjoying a renaissance as of late. I highly recommend his albums DANGEROUS, RELENTLESS, ARIZONA BAY, and RANT IN E-MINOR. Check 'em out.
You know, I can spell words like "renaissance" with ease, but damned if "separate" doesn't throw me every time. *sigh*
Lynn: That would be Bill Ingwall.
Lynn,
"Here's Your Sign" is by Jeff Foxworthy, which gives him a pass for all of his silly "You Might Be A Redneck" jokes for a while.
"Say, got a flat there?"
Regards,
Joseph
Jim~ Duh. Good point. West Bank, Jerusalem, geographically speaking, wall stupid idea.
Is Bill Hicks the guy that did "Here's your sign."?
L.
RE THE RECENT ACADEMIC FOCUS ON THIS BOARD:
Does this mean I have to stop posting in the nude?
To be honest, a wall seperating the Israelis and Palestinians is the WORST idea I've ever heard. It smacks of Cold War-era Berlin, and wouldn't stop the violence one bit. Many Palestinians are effectively segregated from the Israeli population as it is, and that's not resulting in any peace dividends, so what good would a physical wall do? Would it actually stop attacks by either side? Also, where would it go? A major goal of the Palestinians is to return displaced populations to Israeli lands, so, unless there's some kind of zig-zaggy barrier that snakes through Israel like a crepe streamer, an arbitrarily-chosen scrap of land won't cut it. Why would Palestinians consent to being penned into an area of the Israelis' choosing anyway? Let's face it, if they can't figure out a way to live together as peaceful CO-EXISTING neighbors, then a brick wall isn't going to solve the problem.
(A big "what if?" of history: What if the Jewish State had been founded somewhere else? For a brief time, Argentina was the front-runner, if you can believe that. Sure would have avoided a lot of bloodshed down the line...)
ALEX JAY: Oh, I know who Bill Hicks is, you better believe. I heard his albums sometime in 1990 or so, so I've been a fan for awhile. I almost saw him perform once, but didn't make the show for some goddamned reason or another. Needless to say, I regret that very, very much. (BTW, I've never read PREACHER, but you've now given me another reason to check it out.)
"While you were out, I got the keys to your car. And drove it into a big wall. And if you don't like it, tough. I've had my fun, and that's all that matters."--FATHER TED
{The passion in this post is representative of my own strong feelings about this situation, and are not to be taken personally.}
Berman, have you been living in a hole for the past two years? Have you *seen* what the Israelis do to *peaceful* protesters? Israel doesn't have a Bill of Rights, or care anything about Freedom of Speech. They don't use tear gas, they don't use bean bag bullets, they use LIVE AMMUNITION against peacefully protesting Palestinians. Do you know how Intifada II got started? Sharon showed up at the Al Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest Muslim sites in Jerusalem. (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/stories/timeline/templemount.html) Afterwards, Palestinians protested the Butcher of Beirut's presence in Al Aqsa and Israeli troops opened fire on them.
Why didn't we in the West see this? Because Israel doesn't have the same Freedom of the Press that we do. (Ask any of the NBC reporters that have been fired on in the last few months how the Israeli army feels about the Press).
The Palestinians don't have a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King. They have Arafat. A crusty old bastard who only knows how to fight. People like Martin Luther King and Gandhi are very rare, and forgive me if I doubt the Israelis would let such a figure ever come into the public eye. That's what they have helicopter gunships for.
I don't support terrorism or the killing of innocents, but if you look at the WHOLE picture, not just the five second sound bytes and tasty video clips, you will begin to understand that there is a lot more going on here than righteously indignant spotless conscience Israeli leaders routing out the evils of terrorism. Look at all the things that have happened over the few months, like the US finally speaking up on a UN referendum in favor of a Palestinian state, when historically they have never opposed Israel's handling of their own state affairs. Look at the death tolls for each side (in the hundreds for the Israeli's, well into the thousands for the Palestinians) compared to the relative population count and you tell me it doesn't reek of genocide.
To read more about the Butcher of Beirut, Ariel Sharon, read here: http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0102a/em-palestinebloodbath.html (search for the phrase 'women and children').
L.
Why wouldn't non-violent resistance work for the Palestinians? Hell, for either side? Don't you think the side that chose to approach the conflict from a non-violent stance, with peace truly in its heart, would immediately gain the much sought after and hereforeto completely unattained moral high ground? The world is watching this conflict very carefully, and novel solutions like laying down arms, though radical, might actually lead to change. The only thing that IS clear that violence is definitely *not* the solution to this heartwrenching problem.
Bermanator
thinking, "Where is Solomon to just cut the baby in half?"
Cindy~ You watch the Today show, don't you? I heard Matt Lauer say that this morning and I thought to myself, 'That's the best damned idea I've heard yet.' The only problem I see is the Israelis using it to cage the Palestinians. Put them in a box and forget about them. Am I the only one that sees the irony in the Jews oppression of the Palestinians? (no, not the ones with the bombs, the other ones.)
And someone else brought up the fact that suicide bombers go after innocents, not military targets, thus invalidating their act of defiance. And I suppose Sharon's tanks rolling through people's houses are acceptable military targets... I hope George Dubya is taking notes at how futile it is to track down a few terrorists in the midst of an innocent population. Excuse, a population that must be "harboring" terrorists. You folks in Florida had better watch out. Under Dubya's definition, you might be considered to be "harboring" terrorists.
L.
Have you gotten your Webderland t-shirt yet?
http://www.cafepress.com/Webderland
$5 from every purchase goes to the KICK Internet Piracy Fund
How difficult would it be to build a wall to divide the Israelis and the Palestinians? They don't want to be together why not help them be separate? Would they keep jacking with each other anyway?
I don't think anybody wants foreign troops in Israel but somebody needs to step up and help sort it out.
I can't remember which one of y'all asked what I meant by "get rid of Arafat". Well, they have all of those tanks aimed at him, how difficult would it be to...uhh.
No?
I suppose they could send him to Florida. The problem with relocating him is that he would still be able to manipulate his minions from a distance.
Whatever it takes the killing has to stop, for both sides.
Cindy
I didn't get into Bill Hicks because of "Preacher." Found that on the Web while searching for Hicks material. I got into him after seeing his BBC special, which got rebroadcast on NBC after _Saturday Night_.
Odd coincidence about the passing of Thor Heyerdahl. _Vanity Fair_ has a pictorial of great explorers, and they had a dandy pic of Thor. And I thought, "My God, he's still alive?" Had the same though about Edmund Hillary, too.
Re Israel and Palestine. Boy, it'd be nice if I could simply shout "I support Israel" and get that wonderful feeling of stalwart bravery. But I can't. Maybe it's the fact that Israel's become a religiously oriented police state that's frequently run by its crazier and fundamentalist factions. Maybe it's the fact that it's governed the West Bank and Gaza Strip in a manner far less humane than, say, apartheid-era South Africa-governed bantustans. Maybe it's because of years of hearing commentary about undifferentiated "Arabs" that sounds amazingly like prewar European propaganda about Jews. And maybe it's just a matter of secular principle for me-- the idea of establishing a state on the basis of a promise from God in two-thousand-year-old holy writings strikes me as a BAD idea, generally.
By the way, if anyone wants to talk about Arab anti-Semitism, you'd so well to read Karen Armstrong's history of the Crusades, _Holy Wars_. Thanks to the Crusades, anti-Semitism became a major factor in both European and Middle Eastern life. (I'd also caution against patting the West on the back for lacking anti-Semitism-- the Holocaust was only sixty years ago.)
Good morning, all. My mother has taken my daughter for the day, and it's the eeriest feeling listening to an empty house.
Alex Jay: I don't want to be presumptive, but are you inferring that if I sent you the money you would mail the game? If that is the case, I wouldn't want you to have to do it. First, I've got a few other avenues I'm looking into, my preference being to deal direct with a vendor, especially if there's a problem with the game. Makes a return policy work better for me. Second, I don't know how busy you are and it would be an inconvenience, however small. If I didn't misread your intent, please accept my thanks for the offer.
By the Way, Canadians are just too dammed nice, sitting up there in their igloos, watching hockey as they eat their seal blubber and back bacon sandwiches smothered in maple syrup, bought with their undervalued monopoly money. Americans just can't trust people who smile and are so polite all the time.
Faisal: Our information comes out of NAMI newsletters, a few journals of the American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations, and various sites across the web. Scotty is very specific, a result of wanting to know what happened to his brother, giving him (and I) a sense of order against a chaos of not knowing, or understanding.
I haven't waded into the morass concerning the Middle East up to this point; as far as I'm concerned both parties are equally responsible, and a lot of innocents are wasted in the crossfire. Watching images of people pulling bodies out of a crowded restaurant bombed by an Palestinian extremist, then images of people pulling bodies out of the rubble caused by Israeli extremist response, all the while knowing that this will happen again and again...
Scotty ventured the opinion that both the Palestinians and Israelis who want to continue this psychotic endeavor should be separated from the vast majorities on both sides who want peace, be given all the weapons they want, and then be left to eradicate one another. I find this repugnant and have told him so, but he always states that both sides have never truly sought any other means of ending the conflict, and so give them all the bloodshed they want. Maybe if both sides gorge themselves enough, they'll finally stop from mere exhaustion. Common sense and reason have never worked.
Well, I'm going to do a bit of work, then off to see the man. Take care.
Love to all, Melissa
Oh, and add to the list the names Nathan Smith, Marc Leger, Ainsworth Dyer and Richard Green. Bad millennium, indeed.
Jon
Darling Joseph,
She's an actual lesbian! Really! She's been in that mode for about a dozen years now.
Couldn't lesbianism or any other form of sexuality be as individual as fingerprints? Can one formula be applied to any two people, let alone a group?
It occurs to me that someone who is injured by a particular gender might seek comfort in another direction. Once in that, (I'm not going to use the word "rut"- THAT would be a mistake) hmmm, once in that pattern perhaps it is less distressing to stick with it than go with a way that didn't work so well in the past.
I would reiterate that this does NOT mean that I think this is the case for most or all just some...perhaps.
I'm in the dark on this one. Enlighten me, don't kick my ass!
:)
Cindy
************************************>
Cindy,
Looks like I'm going to have to be the one to kick your ass a little. Go talk with some actual lesbians, not someone who was going through a traumatic time and may or may not be a lesbian. They can give you a much better perspective on lesbian sexuality than what you have right now. Basically, you're dealing with incomplete data and drawing conclusions that are therefore faulty.
Regards,
Joseph
I used to support Israel. Now I support neither side. The whole affair is just so base, and violent, and indicative of everything that's wrong with humanity, and very little that's right. Two groups of people, who are actually brothers, and who should be living together for the betterment of both, in a hopeless totem pole war that no-one is going to win.
Lynn said that she felt non-violent resistance (such as Ghandi, I suppose) would not work for the Palestinians. I'm not sure I agree. If the Palestinians had such a leader (like Mandela or Ghandi) and were able to stage this kind of resistance, world support would be quick in coming, and pressure on Israel would be immense. Britain DID leave India.
But Palestine's way has been to murder people to stir the pot. I'm very tired of Islamist bombing, and the sympathy I had for their cause has almost completely evaporated. Meanwhile, Israel's foreign policy is to run over villages with tanks, lending credence to the idea that maybe they should indeed be pushed into the sea, if this is all they have to offer the region.
I agree wholeheartedly with Bermanator. Arguing the Israel/Palestinian issue will almost always degrade into the same endless argument that is inherent in the issue itself. You are a racist, no you, you support murderers, no we support suppressed peoples trying to survive, you, no, yes, hate, scum, die.
I support Israel. That's it. No waste of hundreds of words to explain why. I support Israel and I cannot be swayed by any argument that tells me about innocent lives lost. Innocents are always caught in the middle of these horrible situations. That's why they are so horrible. World Trade Center innocents. Afghani innocents. Israeli innocents. Palestinian innocents. All sides die. It's shit.
And now, I go back to keeping my mouth shut on some of the more volatile political issues.
-TODD
Alex: Funny you should mention "The Young Ones". Use to watch 'em all the time and caught the show yesterday for the first time in yonks. Neil spilling supper on the floor, the talking rats, Vyv. crashing through the wall, Rick espousing his anarchist views, and Mike doing whatever Mike does. I miss that show. Fawlty Towers: too many funny episodes to call one a favorite, but some of my standouts are: when Basil invites his and Sybil's mutual friends to their anniversary party and Sybil thinks Basil forgot and storms off and Connie Booth pretends to be Sybil sick in bed. Somehow, all the guests leave slightly injured and one remarks to Basil, "Thanks for the great time, must do this more often". Then, the "real" Sybil runs into everyone. Then there's the one where Basil wins the money on the horse, breaks the vase, the ol' lady can't hear, oh...nevermind, they'll all great episodes.
Discussing the conflict in the Middle East is a very risky proposition to undertake if you don't want to cause a serious ruckus and hard feelings all around. It seems to me that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are behaving badly, both have sound reasons for feeling as they do, and there is no great answer to this question--no one side is right. Faisal, just as Rob's argument sounded racist to you, your inability to see any merit to the Israeli point of view at all smacks of your bias. In fact, I don't think you CAN have this discussion and take a side WITHOUT sounding racist. The situation is that complex and that fucked up.
I'm not saying you all shouldn't discuss this, but I'd hate to see it get out of hand. This issue tends to create little replicas of itself in these debates. I guess I personally am going to try to skip those posts because they make me feel reflexively angry. I realize this is only an iota of the anger the actual participants feel, and therefore don't want to add my emotional response to the already insane situation.
The futility of taking sides or arguing about this has worn me down. That's my $0.02.
Bermanator
JON: Actually, I picked up RANT IN E-MINOR a few months before Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis really started pimping for Bill in their lettercols.
Reading, I shrieked with joy when Jesse met Bill--my two favorite preachers hooking up.
But yeah; I think I'm one of the few who didn't get Bill through Garth.
I'm sticking by my man Blake! He's a relative (my mother-in-law, maiden name Gubitosi...not sure if I'm spelling that right...is a distant cousin to Robert Blake. She knew of him while growing up in Joisey, I think she lived a town over from him, but there was no family togetherness.
So, by marriage, and by my teenage love of Baretta, I'm sticking with my man. After all, in L.A. they've proven that the only way to lose a murder trial if you are famous is to have someone actually videotape the murder. Doesn't matter how much evidence there is....no videotape, let him go!
Blake should be golfing in Florida by next spring!
-TODD
Alex Jay: Ah, so now it turns out that I share a trait with you and John Constantine. Actually, you're supposed to get a prize -- a membership card and a decoder ring, but all the messages turn out to be "Drink Ovaltine."
Incidentally, virtually everyone I know who listens to Bill Hicks does so because of *Preacher.* Is this the case with you as well?
Jon
Heather - Nope. Never had a homosexual encounter. I fell ass over tea-kettle in love with a woman who was my best friend and closest confidant in college, and the entire time never noticed, had an inkling, or felt on the breeze that she was a lesbian. (Blinders were on. It was my major operating mode in 1991). We broke each others' hearts on the back steps of Mad Murphy's Irish Pub on Saint Patrick's Day evening, both of us too drunk to keep secrets any longer. But I hardly think that counts. We're still thick as thieves, she's happily co-habitating with her partner, and at 33 I'm still a virgin, looking for an energetic, passionate frolic to break up the monotany of the never-ending summer of my discontent. C'est la vie.
Alex - Not a die-hard line quoter, but The Young Ones always, always, ALWAYS made me laugh.
ZOE ROSE: "This page isn't being used as a text in the course." Well, no; no more than a cadaver is used as a "text" in a pre-med bio course. But it--and, by extension, WE--are being used as a resource. For a class which is not free.
You pay for your books, you pay for your supplies; even when you, as students, are told, "Go to the library and look up three books in the Dewey Decimal System," the library is receiving yourfunds via taxes--but hey, it's okay to put the product of Rick's work in the syllabus, unsolicited?
"It's not that I mind being used;" as the altar boy said to the other, "It's just that I like to be ASKED first!"
This is not "Ellison's Webderland;" rather, it is a site created and maintained by one Rick Wyatt which celebrates Harlan's work. And Rick's own work should be acknowledged when using it for class credit.
Or so I believe.
And, speaking of RICK: Thank you; the new display mode is helpful indeed.
FAWLTY TOWERS: One thing I liked was the fact that with every episode, the sign outside was rearranged to spell something different, with one episode inevitably announcing FLOWERY TWATS. Fell over in my chair, I did. And sick or no, I absolutely LOVED Basil's German-baiting after (I think) he was hit in the head ...
On the subject of Britcom, is anyone beside me a YOUNG ONES fan?
CINDY: Rape is the subversion of the sex drive into a power drive. At least, that's the way *I* see it. Now granted, a good deal of regular consexual sex is attended by a base drive of power, but that's more a play-acting, or a means toward two (or more) people sublimating their arguments or conflicts into another forum. It's SAFE, sex is, when it's good--or meant to be good. Just my take.
JOSEPH: Everybody's Skeet Surfin'!
LYNN: I was getting ready to respond with my own rant about how the Arab states--those kind, caring Arab states--are just as if not more culpable in the treatment of the Palestinians as Israel, with their own less-than-stellar dealings with the Palestinian people. How the Palestinians were given their own state in 1947--called Transjordan--but were kicked out by the Saudi-born King Hussain scant years afterward ...
... but fuck it. Neither side has clean hands; in fact, none of the MANY sides involved--Israel, the Palestinians, the Arab states, the West--has anything but blood on their hands and recriminations in their mouths.
And the people keep dying ...
MELISSA: Perhaps one of us could buy the game, then ship it to CanuckleheadLand? Careful, though--I have it, but it doesn't seem to work with my Windows98 ...
And regarding the "can't straight people be talked into being gay?" question you had for Lott: Of course! he would say. That possibility is what justifies his constant ranting against gays and their private bedroom practices. No one will fear a boogeyman if the boogeyman can't insidiously harm you: Jews make matzo from the blood of Christian children, Italians are all mobsters trying to control businesses, blacks are all muggers and rapists who want your daughters, aliens just want to cook and eat you, gays want to seduce away your special, innocent childrenm, and Canadians are all ... um. Symied on that last one.
But nevertheless, the politics of fear are the best way to get reelected, it seems.
LURK: Genetics is only good if we use it to cure people of their diseases, and ignore the other edge on that sword. Cures and medics, not Final Solutions and eugenics, thank you ...
JAY: I just sent a Canajun friend a package, and it didn't cost me that much more than the package I sent to Texas.
For those looking into soundtracks for the day, you might want to try Spinner, an internet radio application--a million channels of different things (***SIX*** Blues channels! Heaven!), all without commercials. It's at http://www.spinner.com
RICH: "Man, I just wanna hear that there's oil underneath the White House." Of COURSE there is! Leaving aside the oily bastards within, think of all the dinosaurs who lived and died there ...
JON: Tenor-baritone here (Not sure how many octaves I currently span, but it's still a lot more than the average bear).
HEATHER: Have I ever had a gay/lesbian experience? Not really, but not for lack of trying--theirs, not mine. I seem to have often been a gay man magnet. I have to admit, it's a hell of a compliment, and that's how I take it. Only one person has ever not taken that well, over ten years ago, and I freaked and almost broke his kneecap (was grabbed from behind, so ...).
And the thing is, people talk about how many gay friends they have. I don't think of my friends that way; they're just friends, gay or straight. A destructive relationshop is bad; a loving one, good. I want the best for my friends.
I HAVE dated a couple bisexual women, and even one avowed lesbian (John Constantine: "Do I win a prize?"), and they've much bemoaned my aberrant (to them) monosexuality. I shrug, in the main. It's just who I am. No genes, mind. Just what's in the jeans.
BRIAN THE COLLEGE STUDENT: Read the books. 'Nuff said.
CINDY: Whereas *I* understand lesbianism or female bisexuality more than ever I could fatrhom the attraction to another man. I wonder if this is endemic?
Also, though I can't understand being with another man, I've never wanted to ask any gay friends, "But wouldn't you really prefer a woman, deep down?" I dunno; if I were gay--lesbian, I mean, you might come off as slightly offensive.
JIM DAVIS: Bill Hicks. The heir to the Lenny throne--ohjeez; I don't believe I just said that, considering how Bruce Elvised. Anyway. If you love Lenny (and Pryor, and Carlin, et alia), you'll enjoy the hell out of Bill.
A few bits. Thor Heyerdahl has died. I found his accounts entertaining and nourishing as a kid, so I thought I'd note his passing.
Robert Blake: I'm a little hopeful that CNN has gone off the rails with this one -- the other networks didn't pick it up live. Also, attempts to film the police car going down the freeway struck me as being so freakishly attemptedly OJ in execution that I imagine a lot of people must be saying 'What is CNN doing here?'
Palestine: There are some fine Fisk and Said pieces at www.counterpunch.com which I'd recommend for anyone who's od'ed on mainstream coverage of the Middle East, or who's at least finding a lot of mainstream coverage to be a bit Orwellian in its assignation of different, loaded terms for similar behaviour on different sides. They also helped me in going in search of what the various suggested plans actually entailed and what sort of death tolls have occurred over the decades. As a sidebar, I'd be a bit worried about Egypt not meeting with Powell on his way out -- if Egypt's fed up and tired of not being listened to, any hope for peace may be already gone.
FAQ: There was an Israeli suicide bomber, I believe -- a militant who was described by the media, not as a terrorist, but as a "maniac" after he killed a couple of dozen Palestinians.
Jon
Melissa - Yes, I am aware of Greenberg's work though I haven't had a look at it for years. It was interesting area to go through and much more fun to examine than Glycolysis ;-)
When I do have time to read the literature, its often involves the biochemistry of aging, a bit of cancer and anything else that is the new hot thing. Due to my finances, I cannot afford a subscription to New Scientist of Scientific American as much as I would like too. Apart from the odd Oliver Sacks...
Which then brings me to Rob's comments about Palestinians and the Muslim world....
Frankly Rob, I'm not going to argue your flawed thesis about Arafat and all that but I am going to take you to task about your racism.
Yeah, you heard me right - the racist comments that were contained in your post.
Let me take one comment of yours and show you:
"And the fact that the Arab world is LITERALLY weaned on prejudice against the Jews ("Jesus killed the Jews"..."
If you knew anything about Islam and the middle east, you would know that Muslims do not believe that Jesus (or is Islam, Isa) was not crucified! Yeah, Arab Muslims, the majority of the population, still hold the cruxifixtion against anyone whose Jewish even though it isn't accepted in Islam.
How about this:
"Whatever human errors Israel might make in this struggle the Palestinians brought it on themselves...many of them literally asking for it. Blame THEM for killing the innocents on both sides, not Israel."
Replace Israel with the US and Palestinians as Black and see what I mean. Heck, I'll forget to mention Palestinians lack of civil liberties when it comes to Palestinians, the legal right the Israeli goverment has to use torture (remember this is a country that would like to be part of the EU and has a greater chance than Turkey), the fact that Palestinians can get heavily taxed and yet not recieve a single iota of help from Israeli administration or bureocracy, the fact that settlers in the West Bank have a licence to maim or kill any Palestinian without the Israeli army or Police (and God, would some of them love too, I know...) stepping in to arrest the culprit and put them behind bars, the facts...
Why am I even entering into a response to your ignorant remarks? I've got to know folks in Israel and the occupied terrortories, they've given me a far clearer picture than what you seem to have picked up from a CNN broadcast.
Lynn should have added one more thing about the desperation of suicide bombers - They have nothing to lose. You ever hear reports of an Israeli suicide bombers?
FAQ
Frank,
Kick me in my manhood and call me Bunny Breckenridge, I think you finally came up with a meaningless line:
"Homosexuals do have a good standard of living..."
...half the bums munching out of the bins in my back ally are probably gay. I don't pretend to be well-informed on this subject. But be it the orientations attributable to a neuron group in the anterior hypothalamus, or some other region of the brain, or a specific gene it is an innate feature to be sure. It can be argued in what cases and to what extent environment plays a role but how many good old-fashioned American nuclear families have had that one deviant sibling who, for no discernible reason, found him or her self to be somehow... "different"... and often at emotional odds with parents because of it? Provides a pretty good lab to examine and implies anyone from all walks of life, all races, all intelligence levels, all incomes, all social traits can be gay or bi. Living standards have nothing to do with anything; it's not like some correlate.
Outside of being some bizarre generalized misconception your line just doesn't make sense.
As for the Israelis' racism: Separating the fact that human is human the Muslim world proved to me they are solely bent on pushing Israel back into the sea. The sound deal the Palestinians were offered as a basis to build their own state turned down FOOLISHLY by Arrafat without a counter-offer; the subsequent onslaught of suicide bombings (the Palestinians' way of conducting war sans the military resources of wealthier countries); and this Resolution 194 (if I have the number right), the fine print contract offered by Saudi Arabia that would open Israel to practically every Palestinian who ever walked the earth, in effect dissolving the country. Arrafat's mock martyrdom is placing the Palestinians (and the Arab World) ahead in the game right now in the judging eyes of a gullible world. But they've lost my sympathy completely because of those factors (that phony resolution is what told me what I needed to know). And the fact that the Arab world is LITERALLY weaned on prejudice against the Jews ("Jesus killed the Jews", they utter by rote; even when they’re Stanford graduates like the ones Barbara Walters interviewed about 2 weeks ago) makes it a reservoir of bigotry. How do you think that's going to effect Israel's perception of them?
Whatever human errors Israel might make in this struggle the Palestinians brought it on themselves...many of them literally asking for it. Blame THEM for killing the innocents on both sides, not Israel. The two cultures are caught in a war. Innocents are sadly killed in a war. Such sick, regrettable necessity was the case when the Jews were fed the ovens by Hitler - a juncture at which formal diplomacy was useless. Many innocents were killed in the collateral. The card deck is no different today. The more imperiled survival becomes the simpler the criteria, but the more complicated the answers.
Cindy-
I'm a mixed-drink and wine only type of gal, but I get your point. I'd have to agree, substitutions don't do it for me. But that's not to say that the urge for others couldn't be satisfied by substitutional means. I dunno. They were made for some reason, weren't they (substitutes, not lesbians)?
--Zoe Rose
Cindy,
Looks like I'm going to have to be the one to kick your ass a little. Go talk with some actual lesbians, not someone who was going through a traumatic time and may or may not be a lesbian. They can give you a much better perspective on lesbian sexuality than what you have right now. Basically, you're dealing with incomplete data and drawing conclusions that are therefore faulty.
Regards,
Joseph
BARNEY: I'm with you 100%--pedophilia is a LEARNED BEHAVIOR, not a genetically-based alternate form of normal sexuality. I have no doubt that these pedophiles are replicating the abuse they suffered as children, and I can't believe for even one second that an allele is to blame for their acts.
HEATHER: Nah, I've never had a homosexual encounter. But this straight man wants everyone to know that David Bowie can have him ANYTIME he wants.
(This is kind of a safe admission to make. Bowie is very happily married to a woman--Iman, no less--so I don't think the Thin White Duke will be ringing my doorbell anytime in the near future. Still, if I had to go gay, he'd be the one...)
I feel compelled to kinda sorta stick up for Frank Church. I HAVE heard of some polls that show a greater per capital income for gays than straights--in America, anyway. So there IS kinda sorta a basis for his statement that homosexuals enjoy a higher standard of living. Kinda sorta.
The recent posts on Lenny Bruce have inspired to me to relisten to my CDs of his work (not that I need much prodding to do that). What a loss, his dying at 40. The man wasn't only a comedian, he was a trickster/shaman/hierophant-of-language. I especially love his skit "The Palladium" on the THE LENNY BRUCE ORIGINALS, VOL.2. What other comedian would have the BALLS to do a piece about, well, a BOMBING COMEDIAN? And make it so funny and tragic at the same time? Again: What a loss, what a loss, what a loss.
(I also love his line, "He was so tough, he wore wool suits without any underwear." KILLER.)
Jim,
Exactly.
Cindy
Yes, Cindy, it's sad. But sadder still is how CNN and all the other networks have gone completely apeshit over this Robert Blake arrest. It's O.J. Redux, and man, they can't fill the pigtrough fast enough. So if you're sick of the story already, well, you'd better just take a vacation from your TV set for the next few weeks. Hell, take the next YEAR off.
Wasn't 9/11 supposed to have stopped this kind of onanistic celebritycentric bullshit?
(Sorry, but watching Aaron Brown lecture me about the necessity for ANOTHER hour of analysis on Bob Blake's travails has made me a littly cranky. This is why the mainstream media, which showed signs of turning itself around after the WTC attack, is completely bankrupt in terms of actually informing the public about the issues that matter. I've always admired Blake's work, and I hope he didn't do what he's accused of. But the whole thing doesn't deserve 24-hr, blow-by-blow coverage. Just tell us what happened--not what is SURMISED, not what is SPECULATED, but WHAT IS ACTUALLY KNOWN AND IS VERIFIABLE--and move on, for Chrissakes.)
(Or am I just a party-pooper?)
Robert Blake arrested for the murder of his wife?
The whole thing is sad.
Cindy
ZOE YOU WROTE:
On the lesbian-needs-a-man discussion:
Hey I totally agree with nothing being quite as satiating as a man, but it occurs to me that there are a lot of ways to, well - fake having a man in there with ya. "
You can't tell me that you'd just as soon have a Pearl Light beer as a Guinness. For some things there ARE no substitutions.
I guess I've been to the mountain.
Cindy
Melissa, you make me laugh. I liked that last part of:
"The problem is with three kids, well, try to find time."
H, going away now. Too much sun, wind and jogging, I think.
Let me see if I can write this out. This is definitely a situation where I am writing to TRY to explain what I think I think.
I may fail.
You said, you can understand what a male sees in another male because you can see it too. This is true. Here's another view: (bound to befuddle so bite me, okay?)
I was staring at the ubiquitous magazine rack in my local convenience store the other day. Girlie mags on the top rafter, women's mags on the bottom. Girls in scantily dress in the top, WOMEN, in scantily dress but oh so healthy, happy and..WAIT A MINUTE..
Suddenly, I DON'T see a difference. I see men's magazines with half-dressed women on the front with "come fuck me or I'm oh so virginally" looks and women's magazines with..HMMMMMMMM...
Let's look a little closer, shall we?
I'll start with this: Years ago, I was in a bookstore looking at this book. I don't remember the title but the book was filled with naked men. I DON'T remember (this was too long ago and I feel if I draw it out, I'll just apply my CURRENT view to what I saw back then) how it struck me except that I remember saying..hmm..that man is sitting on a lawn chair and I can see his penis. Am I supposed to be aroused the way a man is when he see the cunt and breasts on a naked woman?
(Hmm...*my head hurts. I'm getting a headache here. I don't get headaches. Either I'm tired, or I'm fucked to find a solution to what I'm trying to figure out here. I may not FIGURE OUT anything.)
I remember watching skin flicks on either a french pay channel or maybe, some porn channel that I was able to access. I REALLY can't remember. All I remember is seeing men being shown to get ready to be revved up by the sight of this woman..either playing with herself ..or..us seeing long, alluring shots of her body in seductive dress or her breasts jangling and her going oh oh oh, as the male mounted her from behind..
YOU GET MY POINT...
I have seen..so many IMAGES..in my life..that were MADE..obviously for a man's enjoyment (titillation..whatever). I think I have a better understanding of what turns on a man--by way of things I've VIEWED..that's the key point, here..VIEWED..in the media.
I have VERY few images from which to draw on what _I_ as a woman, as supposed to find titillating about a man.
Oh.. I'm sorry.. that's partly IT, isn't it? Men aren't SUPPOSED to appear 'titillating,' are they? There's an element to these WOMEN'S images that one comes to realize (if one is not DEAD, that is) of woman as support hose--you just put them ON, don't you? They're in a supporting role.
Couldn't ever have THAT for a man's image, now COULD you?
Hmm..I think I need to go write such a story. I'll see how it turns out. MAN as a titillating object.
Hmmm..(and I didn't say gay.) (or DID I?)
Heather, too few brain cells, too little time.
P.S. I think my head DOES hurt. I'll stop with what I've written so far.
Heather: Sorry, but no lesbian/gay sexual experiences here. I think myself and Scotty enjoy what we have well enough. The problem is with three kids, well, try to find time.
A Boy and His Dog; Brian, what film were you watching? Do you recall the sequence where you see the three sets of feet watch Vic from a distance? Lew's (Jason Robards) voice tells the others that he'll work nicely.
Vic and Quilla June (I've been exposed to this film a fair number of times) get it on because Quilla wants to set the hook. How else is a woman going to get a man to follow her across a post-apocalyptic Earth? For the night-life? The only way she'll get Vic to go down under is to make it worth his while, and Vic, who as a solo is motivated merely to eat, sleep and fuck will follow willingly if he gets one of the three.
Look, it's a sad thing for a guy to be led around by his scrotal sac, but in the case of the film, where those who live above the surface sacrifice their civilized nature to lead a more primal existence, it fits into the story's and film's logic.
Now, to an argument my sister and I had over the conclusion of the story. Sis screamed misogyny, claiming that the act of cannibalism was displaying the author's (forgive her, Mr. E., she knows not what we know of you, of your loving kindness for all things and all people) hatred of women. After the good laugh I had (Sis was always one for supplying a chuckle) I asked her a simple question.
If the genders were reversed; if Quilla had eaten Vic to save Blood, what would it have been then?
It would've been survival, the same as Vic eating Quilla.
You know, I love "Eating Raoul".
And after that, I'm off to read a bit, and sleep. Have a good evening everyone. Melissa
Lynn,
I think the big mistake was made around 1919 when a British Commission recommended that "the project of making Palestine distinctly a Jewish commonwealth should be given up".
If things had been constructed then, put into place perhaps we would have avoided the subsequent decades of horror.
No one could object to the SUICIDE of those who are oppressed but when they blow themselves up IN HOTELS with people holding a wedding party or passover celebration it goes way off the chart.
Sympathy becomes dislodged when teenagers and babies who have nothing to do with the angst of the insane are blown apart.
Who could blame the Israelis for stepping up the violence in response to such reprehensible acts? Did you see the news clips? Those weren't soldiers they blew up.
War is bad. No sect is blameless.
We took Texas from Mexico and the United States from the Indians. What do you glean from that? People are territorial they demand their piece of Earth and the strong usually whip the under gunned.
Cats eat mice and it's never pretty.
Cindy
Will someone please explain to me why it's such a surprise that children raised in refugee camps, who have known nothing but occupation their entire lives, why is it such a surprise that they're willing to *kill* themselves in an act of defiance against their oppressors? It isn't as if they can go out and join the Army, fight for their country, and get money for college at the same time, now, is it? It isn't as if they can hope to protest peacefully without being shot down by Israeli troops. It isn't as if any form of non-violent resistance would do anything to change their situation. Israel has created the perfect breeding ground for terrorists by their treatment of Palestinians and now they act as if they have no part in the violence. I'm not a poli-sci specialist, but jumpin' jehosaphat, you don't create loyal citizens by treating people like animals! You don't gain the love of your people by bulldozing their homes! And you certainly don't make a bad situation better by escalating the violence! If the Butcher of Beirut's first response is violence, why should he expect anything less from the Palestinians!
These people are sitting on the greatest tourist trap ever created and all they can do is shoot at each other! Rule #1: BULLETS AND BOMBS ARE BAD FOR BUSINESS!
{/RANT}
::sigh:: And no, I don't feel better.
Brian of the college-level course. Thank you for coming, enjoy the show, let your prof. know you got a response - but here's the skinny.
Harlan is a writer - he wrote this novella called, of all things - "A Boy and His Dog". It was pretty popular, it won some awards and someone decided to make a movie about it.
You saw that movie.
It's an adaption of the original work - an adaption not completely or even primarily written by Mr. Ellison.
As Harlan is fond of saying - please, read the novella. He's really a rather good writer (many of his works have won awards, from many different organizations across many diferent media).
The novella will more clearly illustrate exactly what the movie tried to say. You'll come away with a subtext that apparently escaped you from the film.
And from my personal experience - it's a good story as a WRITTEN WORK.
(Sorry Zoe, I don't think he's gonna like this one as much as yours)
"I can understand male homosexuality alot easier than female. I can see what men see in men because I SEE IT TOO."
Someone is yapping beside me. I can't think. Remind me of this. I'll come back to this issue, okay?
Heather, who wants to kill people who yap in the quiet area of a library.
Eeeps. I'm just going to go ahead and wince, here...
Brian - Prepare for a beating. It's fun if you can take it. By the way, you from Duluth?
On the lesbian-needs-a-man discussion:
Hey I totally agree with nothing being quite as satiating as a man, but it occurs to me that there are a lot of ways to, well - fake having a man in there with ya.
On Star Wars:
Justin, I haven't read that page you posted, but I will. Just a question, not meant in any way to be religiously insulting to anyone. In the first of the 'new' Star Wars movies, didn't things seem to be getting a bit.. well, Christian? The devil-like guy, conception without the sex, etc? Whatcha think?
Think I'll stop there...
--Zoe Rose
Brian, regarding A BOY AND HIS DOG; go to the top of this page and click on the Archives link found in the Forum Links area. Then select Comment Archive 11/04/2001 to 12/08/2001.
A search of this page may answer many of your questions.
Proudly brought to you by cut and paste, and the letters deja vu
Kerry
SHIT!
That one got away from me before I could edit it.
Cindy
Brian,
Darlin'! Spoken like a kid who has never had a woman fall like a tree at his feet. OH, buddy it DOES happen and sometimes it doesn't even take ONE NIGHT!
:)
Fucking in a hollowed out boiler of some deserted bunker AFTER one night IS something that could not only happen but also be (sadly) considered the HIGHT POINT of some individuals lives!
I'm not KIDDING!
For the guy to go after a woman met under such circumstances is ENTIRELY possible if all of the cogs in both wheels align in such a spectacular fashion that it is inescapable and life altering.
My advise to you my dear boy is to live a bit longer and then watch this again when you've had a few life altering encounters with perfect women who shake you to the marrow of your bones by just looking at you.
I might surmise that you have never had such an experience compounded by The girl falling in love with Don Johnson after ONE NIGHT fucking in the hollowed out boiler of some deserted bunker? Him going after her seemed incredibly out of character, cliche' and just ill developed.
Listen to the dialogue again when you don't have a migraine from cramming for exams. It is a riot.
:)
Now giddowdahere kid yabug me!
Cindy
Brian
- Thursday, April 18 2002 18:52:1
I have just watched "A Boy and His Dog" for a college level science fiction course and was just curious to get some feedback from you fine people. I had never heard of Mr. Ellision before watching this movie so I know next to nothing about his works, his level of involvement in production or anything.
My first impression wasn't a very peachy one. While the premise and the on-screen back and forth between Vic and Blood was excellent, I found the movie lacking substance. It seemed to get it's main thrust from some sort of hyper symbolism which I could never really understand. Truth be told... I'm not sure if there even WAS any symbolism or this was supposed to just be a farce, spoof, film of the absurd or what.
The plot seemed incredibly thin, but maybe that was the point? The girl falling in love with Don Johnson after ONE NIGHT fucking in the hollowed out boiler of some deserted bunker? Him going after her seemed incredibly out of character, cliche' and just ill developed.
After reading Mr. Ellison's biography and all the fans clammoring to praise him I had a hard time trusting my own judgement. I really just want to call this a bad movie and get it over with. Interesting yes. Innovative... maybe....
but bad.
I'm having a hard time because I think I could be wrong.
Any advice, information etc... would be appreciated.
Thanks!
all the little Internet rats jumping on ship, that is; I just wanted to comment--unrelatedly to this guy's post, where he said, about "A Boy and his Dog"...
"The plot seemed incredibly thin, but maybe that was the point? The girl falling in love with Don Johnson after ONE NIGHT fucking in the hollowed out boiler of some deserted bunker? Him going after her seemed incredibly out of character, cliche' and just ill developed.
Uhmm..I dunno what planet you (or others like you, soon to visit) live on but I hadda laugh at this comment above.
Christ, when DOESN'T the woman fall in love with the man after one night, inna movie, hmm? Cut the crap, eh? We're talking movies here, aren't we? You getting a version of them that I've been missing out on or summat?
And finally (not that I need to say this--we have plenty of other who will) what's with you, person? Harlan Ellison didn't MAKE the fucking movie, some bloody director did. (And as I recall Ellison mentioning, the director put the famous last phrase in, contrary to Ellison's intent.) (Or will someone correct me by saying that Ellison wrote the screenplay or summat..which is it? Not that THAT completely matters.)
All I plan to say on this crapola. Let others play with it. What is this called, "pseudo-academic baiting" or summat?
Okay Heather,
Lesbian experience.
I have a good friend who was once in love with a married man. He didn't care about his wife and he didn't care about her (as is usually the case). He broke her heart and she moved to a bigger town. She's not a pretty girl, she has some masculine attributes and would probably have been a rather fetching guy, I guess. She's buff and built. She was desolate over the loss of the big loser and not really getting great odds for another man coming down the pike any time soon. So, she ended up going to a gay bar with a guy friend and met all these women that treated her like she was just the cutest thing that the cat ever dragged up.
Lonely and hurt, she suddenly found herself the bell of the ball in the Lesbian "in" crowd of this cow town. So she turned gay. I'll never forget the day she told me of the big switch. She had gotten involved with a woman with a HUGE ASS and they were going to be "joined in a holy union ceremony." Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this was so foreign to me. I said, " So you're telling me that you can go the rest of your LIFE without a- a-- a payoff? " I shook my head. See I heard what Harlan said, I didn't shake my head "no".
I added, "You're going to be happy with nothing but endless foreplay?" She said that was crass and I suppose it was, I prefer "frank". I thought she was making a huge error and that there would come a time when she'd have to have a MAN again.
She and the little woman with the ass that looked like it was smacked with some sort of nuclear frying pan broke up a couple of years later. No divorce just apart and finished. She's alone now and I wonder if she ever thinks about men. I know she has classified herself as a lesbian, but still the memory of having a man would linger wouldn't it? Even if he didn't love you. His arms, his weight his smell-- GOD there is NOTHING like a man.
I can understand male homosexuality alot easier than female. I can see what men see in men because I SEE IT TOO.
Cindy
I was in the drug store the other day and read a little of Michael J. Fox's bio. I LIKE Michael J. Fox. It annoyed me sometimes that the roles he was given, way back when, limited his progression as an actor. (Typical Hollywood planning. Find a key/stereotypic role for an actor and make him REPEAT that role for the rest of his career. *sigh*)(I liked "Bright lights, Big City, for example.) I haven't seen the current show he was in. I hope it was a little meatier for him, but no matter.
It saddens me to know that this disease has tapped him on the shoulder--I sometimes wonder if the real hyper ones (and he struck me as a hyper one, in his early days, of doing films and television back to back to back to back to back) are predisposed to their brains running a little fast, ergo their brains (and metabolisms) being a little more prone to deadly blasts like his Parkinson's disease.
Yet, what also comes to mind, despite the huge amounts of money he is helping to raise for this disease...well..I'll give you an example..
There was a woman in the local paper the other day being talked about. She is dealing with cancer and apparently dealing with it nobly. Why shouldn't SHE matter just as much as Michael J.?
I hope you get my point. I don't think it's bad that focus is put on any cause by way of ANY one person. The chance for cures might be increased, due to this. I just think the other, not-so-famous Parkinson's diseased person are saying, "Hmm..NOW they make a big deal of it. NOW, because it's some celebrity. How about when it's just li'l ole me?"
Does that make sense?
Yes, I realize Fox and other celebs like him, who unfortunately, have found themselves in really crippling (literally) situations--Christopher Reeves is another example--are to be CONCERNED about.
But why did you have to wait for some CELEBRITY to get sick to find these causes important? Doesn't 'just some guy' matter too?
Hmm..tossing out small bombs, perhaps. Deal with these as you will.
Heather, staring a little hard at the universe these days, I suppose...
P.S. I started reading this URL on Michael J. Fox, on the weekend. It's quite long and it's about his "coming out," you might say. (Another thing that angers me--that he'd have to keep this ailment hidden. *sigh* Damn, that makes me angry; the more I think of it.) You might find it interesting:
http://www.michaeljfox.org/news/foundation_luckyman.html
I think it's partly because I am interesting in diseases of the brain (I guess you could say. I found Robin Williams/Robert DeNiro movie, "Awakenings", on this subject interesting.)
Wading into the gene pool (briefly)...
Genetic predisposition aside, let's not forget how dicey sexual determination really is. It's amazing to me, that anyone winds up (basically) normal at birth. I was astonished at the number of gender "re-assignment" surgeries that are actually performed in this country. I was equally astounded by how many of those "re-assigned" individuals end up switching gender roles entirely. With that in mind, is it any wonder that so many folks end up confused about their sexual preferences (or their gender)?
So I guess it comes down to; How much of our sexuality is determined by genetics? What about hormones during gestation? Howzabout environment?
Food for thought...
-Andrew
Who is *not* saying that being homosexual is necessarily confusing...
I have just watched "A Boy and His Dog" for a college level science fiction course and was just curious to get some feedback from you fine people. I had never heard of Mr. Ellision before watching this movie so I know next to nothing about his works, his level of involvement in production or anything.
My first impression wasn't a very peachy one. While the premise and the on-screen back and forth between Vic and Blood was excellent, I found the movie lacking substance. It seemed to get it's main thrust from some sort of hyper symbolism which I could never really understand. Truth be told... I'm not sure if there even WAS any symbolism or this was supposed to just be a farce, spoof, film of the absurd or what.
The plot seemed incredibly thin, but maybe that was the point? The girl falling in love with Don Johnson after ONE NIGHT fucking in the hollowed out boiler of some deserted bunker? Him going after her seemed incredibly out of character, cliche' and just ill developed.
After reading Mr. Ellison's biography and all the fans clammoring to praise him I had a hard time trusting my own judgement. I really just want to call this a bad movie and get it over with. Interesting yes. Innovative... maybe....
but bad.
I'm having a hard time because I think I could be wrong.
Any advice, information etc... would be appreciated.
Thanks!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO JUSTIN!
YOU wrote:
" If the two primary things a person contributes to the planet are carbon dioxide and human suffering, no argument in favor of their continued existence on this planet has any validity. "
I think that comment kicks ass. You're good kid, really good.
Cindy
the next question is: Have you ever had a gay/lesbian experience---of any nature?
I'd have to dig a little harder to recall more than this but here are two that spring to mind:
When I lived in Hamilton, years ago, I worked for a guy who had a client who ran a clothing store. I can't remember what situation PUT me in the store, but I was helping there one day--this other lady working with me, showing me around--and a rather "mysterious" looking woman came into the store. I was trying on clothes (they were trying to dress me up for working in the clothing store), and I put on this blouse with an animal print on it. I just liked it for the animals but I suppose the woman who started eyeing me and complimenting me a little more than it seemed reasonable, liked me in it for other reasons. She left the store and my coworker cued me into the fact that the woman was a lesbian. It felt a little strange.
More recently, I worked in a family restaurant as a cashier, waitress and short order type. I wore one of those standard waitress-like uniforms and I must admit it fit me pretty nice.
There was a regular customer who came into the restaurant most nights; she hung with her current girlfriend and they'd sit and natter like an old married couple. I caught her eyeing me a few times, a little more appreciatively than a woman might do with another person.
I talked to her on a few occasions--this was a small restaurant, you see. She was interested in writing, as it happens, so we'd chat about this or that. The thing I found interesting though--and I don't know why I never considered this (probably because it never happened before)--she acted "macho" like a guy. I'm talking in that stereotypic sense that _I_, as a female, generally find a little annoying.
She would sit sometimes with her other cronies who frequented the play, and talk a bit too loud, making stupid comments about women they liked and.. (hmm..how to put it without every guy in the Internet room here trying to peg himself as a similar type and getting annoyed with me) well.. ACT LIKE A GUY.
After a while, and due to a few go-rounds with her and her current girlfriend (who seemed to start acting a bit cool towards me once she sensed this woman was "ogling" me, let us say), I kinda stopped talking to her. I sorta felt bad about it but then I realized, I wouldn't put up with this behaviour from a guy; why would I put up with it from a girl?
*sigh* Never mind. I'm gonna hear crap on this comment. I just know it.
Anyway, both experiences were a still strange.
Has this happened to any of you? (or vicey voo, of course.)
Lynn, you'll get no argument from me. My tail always gets bushy when people start discussing theories as to why these predators do what they do, as opposed to discussing hard facts about what happened the victims.
You all might be interested in this article I just read at Salon.com (in case you haven't noticed, I'm sitting around on the 'net tonight, catching up on all the internet nonsense I've missed this semester). The article is called GALACTIC GASBAG:
http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/04/10/lucas/
It goes a long way toward disproving the story George Lucas has tried to cultivate, about how he got the inspiration for Star Wars from ancient myths. The article really gives lots of credit to the early pulp SF writers like E.E. "Doc" Smith. I've been into Star Wars since I was four years old, don't get me wrong, and I've got nothing but love for Uncle George. But come on...credit where credit is due.
Justin wrote: "On no? I've seen what sexual predators do to people, and how it fucks their lives and the lives of their loved ones. The only crime I can think of that's worse is outright murder. "
Justin, I have a dear friend who was molested from age 6 through age 13. Let me just make the observation that murder victims only suffer once. Molestation victims suffer in ways you can not begin to equate with anything you've ever experienced. DID, flashbacks, suicidal tendencies, these are just a few of the symptoms.
Death isn't good enough for serial abusers of children.
L.
A good evening to all. Scotty sends along his best; after sixteen hours of work, and then two more chasing his children about a man can get tired.
Faisal: So, you're aware of Paul Greenberg's work into dopamine receptors? Stunning stuff, from what I've been able to decipher so far. (I have to admit; advance biochemistry takes a bit of slogging for me) What fascinates me is his proof of how the kinases functions to change the protein in order to control the function of the neurotransmitter. Now he and his team have ascertained over 100 phosphorproteins within brain function, hoping to further unlock schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease and a host of neurological dysfunctions.
In an aside to another topic of discussion here it's a hell of an improvement over somewhat antiquated conceptions of psychiatric disease. Freud's conceptions regarding homosexuality comes to mind.
Gotta go, all. Have fun.
Melissa
Xanadu, this works better if we argue about the issues, not about each other.
>I'd hollow out their skulls and use them as soup dishes if the government would let me. <
Yes, the whole issue is dehumanizing. For the children, the perpatrators, and those who must judge. Nobody wins, and everyone comes out stained.
NOTE TO ALL WHO ARE RANTING AGAINST THE GAY GENE: Officially dropped as a subject by me, the person who said it originally. No one said anything about isolating a gay gene. In fact, no one is even saying that gayness is completely genetically determined. So go right ahead and continue arguing about it, by all means, but not with me.
Brian/Faisal: When I said people who are gay will say they were always gay, I clearly stated "self-identified gay guy." I don't mean people who were experimenting in college, had that one experience, were in prison, or whatever. I mean people who are out, part of a gay community, etc. They will tell you they were always gay. What exactly are you guys arguing against? That these people are just choosing to be gay? That there is nothing inherent or immutable about it? I'm never going to concede that and I think it's false. Not sure if you still want to hammer away about it, but hey, knock yourselves out.
I don't believe sexuality is a linear, measurable quantity. Rather than charting it on a two dimensional line with a point on either end ala the Kinsey Scale, I think of it as being three dimensional, fluid, and operating on so many levels pervading a person's life. People self-identify, and they would know better than we, outside labelers, would. If they say they were born gay, who are you to disagree? Therefore, if you're trying to convince me that being gay isn't simply genetic, or whatever, no need. I know sexuality is a complicated issue and we're not going to nail it all down on this BB.
Frank: Crass? I think I've been very patient. Look not to the mote in my eye.
Bermanator
Oh yeah...Michael: THE MALTESE FALCON was da bomb. Now I know why Bacall married him.
"When you're slapped you'll take it and like it." WHACK! WHACK! Genius.
On the genes in homosexuality issue: I've heard it remarked that there's no way, because the purpose of genes is to reproduce themselves. To live on in future generations. So therefore the evolution of a gene for homosexuality would be staggeringly unlikely. On the other hand, we see now that more and more homosexual couples are wanting to have children through various methods, or at least wanting to adopt children, so I don't know how much weight the previous argument holds. Interesting question. Genetics is fascinating, as is memetics.
Christalmighty. Who even CARES if there's a "gene" for predatory sexual behavior? If only the government would let me, I'd pull the switch on every repeat-offending (I'm being very nice here) sexual predator, from date rapists to child pornographers.
"Oh, Justin's just posturing and he wouldn't really do that to a mass of living, breathing human beings."
On no? I've seen what sexual predators do to people, and how it fucks their lives and the lives of their loved ones. The only crime I can think of that's worse is outright murder. So yeah, I'd honest to god flip the switch and then go have a snack. In fact, I'd hollow out their skulls and use them as soup dishes if the government would let me.
I don't care what the "contributing factors" are. Someone was raised in an environment where sexual abuse was prevalent? I know for a fact that people can overcome that. For those who choose not to? I have no sympathy for anyone, I don't care what their background is, who can ignore the sqealings of a woman or a child in the process of being traumatized. You can chastise me if you want to about making decisions about who deserves to live and who deserves to die, but lines have to be drawn somewhere. If the two primary things a person contributes to the planet are carbon dioxide and human suffering, no argument in favor of their continued existence on this planet has any validity.
If only somebody would put me in charge, just for 24 hours.
Gore Vidal makes the point that there are no gay people just gay acts. He gets in trouble for these thoughts, especially since he has been living with the same man for years.
Camille Paglia also makes the point that she doesn't believe in actual monogamous gay relationships. Her view is that most people are bi.
Just food for thought.
The great Gay Gene debate
OK... let me ask one thing, isolate the exact location of the 'Gay Gene'? OK, I know that certain 'MARKERS' are on the X chromosome and that these 'MARKERS' seem to have a higher incidence's in people who practise male homosexual activities. This is not a definite indication of the 'Gay Gene'. Do I have to get out my copy of Stryer, Voet & Voet, and contact dear Prof. Higgins, a man who opened my eyes and interests to the complexities of sexual development, to specify in terms why saying that there is a definite 'Gay gene' is about as substancial as finding one that determines an individuals 'air guitar' activity. In fact, so bemused have I become with the current happening, I am going digging up my notes, my essays and emailing colleagues to try and make this a lot clearer.
Berman, I have to agree with Brian here about citing your friends feelings towards their own homosexuality. I did, for a while, work on gay issues with the NUS and I met homosexuals who came from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some of them don't feel gay, some of them oscillate between male and female relationships, some of them have been gay and then went straight, some of them... All I'm saying is that there are a wide variety of people who practise homosexual behaviours and then you have to take into account upbringing, cultural differences, etc. (in some African and Asian communities, homosexuality isn't even defined as a seperate sexual activity but just a everyday part of growing up). Some of the people I knew never thought they were gay until years later, others just went looking for love, etc. etc. (On this very subject, I reccomend the book Out in the Open by S. Norris and E. Read, Pan Books, 1985).
Mellissa - Yes, there is stronger evidence that patients suffering from Schizophrenia may be more susceptable to the condition due to a genetic factor. I can't cite the studies (the most famous being the Amish geneology examination) but this can be easily monitored when chemical levels within schizophrenic individuals show higher levels of IP3's.
If I was shown a chart where a person has higher than usual phosphorylation level in their brain, I could say that theres a high chance that they 'might' be schizophrenic as there are only a limited amount of stimuli that could produce such a result...
(For example, from drug use, especially PCP).
But if I saw the dietary record of an individual with low Tryptophan levels, I would be VERY reluctant to label then as a potential homosexual.
Jay - Lynn is quite right. Yassar Arafat and Palestine, frankly, Arafat didn't have much power over dipshit other than a pretty corrupt police force. The Israeli action actually made him more popular. Arafat has little control over suicide bombers and this is just another excuse by Ariel Sharon to go and practise some more ethnic cleansing for the sake of his major supporters. Arafat recognised years ago that accomodation with Israel is more plausible than outright destruction. May I reccomend Fisk, Chomsky and Said for this (With a bit of Ghilan and Stephen Green on the side).
Now I hope the above made sense as I'm tired, hungry and haven't spelt check the dratted thing.
FAQ
Lynn, there is never a justification to kill innocent people, but you are right in your overall rant. Also, you would think Israel would not resort to this kind of racism, especially with their human history as a guide.
Actually, I have seen the idiocy in my last posting: Homosexuals do have a good standard of living, on average, but I was seemingly implying that they were not an abused class. I appologize, exceedingly.
Bermanator, no need to be crass.
*** Lynn ***
I enjoyed that rant. I suspect 2002 - 2004 is going to be one of those "throw some more gasoline on the fire" periods of history the likes of which we haven't seen since the deaths of JFK / MLK, Jr. / RFK. Makes me wish CNN had a fast forward button.
*** the homosexuality thread *** If there is a gene for REALLY Gay, I'm talking 'Big Gay Al' "welcome to the next level sweety" type gay, I expect it will be linked to the 'prefers Ford to Chevy' gene. Hey folks, it's just a postulate!!
*** child porn / kiddie porn *** Jim's closing paragraph comes close to how I feel but there are aspects of this where I still cease to be open-minded. I can only find the Supreme Courts decision acceptable if they actually address the fall-out cases which ought to crop up as the logical result of such a decision.
I wish one of our regular lurkers would jump in on this topic. He worked with minors incarcerated for sexual predatory behavior [you do NOT want the examples] and a few dinner conversations with this fellow (you have to imagine a human wolverine with a teaching certificate and a minor in head-locks) will turn your thinking around.
I'm going to say a couple of things and if I'm wrong I'm sure he will let me know real soon.
1.] The 1 in 8 recidivism statistic is way too optimistic. These people are MOSTLY permanently bent in the head and have NO desire to be cured. Lifetime incarceration or early death seem to be the career path of choice.
2.] I believe that the gene theory falls by the wayside with this particular sexual orientation profile. If I am understanding my friends anecdotal evidence correctly it seems to be mostly learned behavior - ie. Mommy and Daddy teach you what's "normal" and in these cases what is perceived to be normal by the damaged children of these folks, if adequately described would make most folks lose their cookies. Daddy and Mommy showed them. It must be normal. And then they pass it on.
3.] Finally, to bring it back to the kiddie porn [it hurts my heart just to type those words] issue I don't think it works the same way as adult 'porn' or 'erotica'. This is not the kind of scenario where some 15 year old kid can't date Suzy the cheerleader and steals his dad's Playboy and rubs one out. This is not the scenario of a 45 year old guy who can't click with the new dating scene on the bounce or some other sad but common set of circumstances and finds himself standing in the back room of that privately owned video store. Building a file of Calvin Klein ads doesn't keep these guys from dragging some kid behind the dumpster of a 7-11 and doing things that only Alestair Crowley would condone. These folks are not big on sublimation. They are also not going to spend time fooling around with the Adobe Photo-Suite of tools or Power-Goo or CorelDraw 8.0 What they will do is videotape Johnson Baby Powder and Huggies and Michelin Tire commercials.
I hope to hell it isn't a gene.
- Barney
[my rainbow coalition stops within the visible spectrum]
P.A. Berman: Good for you! I'm surrounded by college kids at work, and when I've called them on it, some don't even realize the correlation.
R.Wilder
Harlan is not an alto, not a baritone; he probably is a tenor.
We'll have to listen closely to "On the Road...Volume 1." Which makes me wonder, will we get a Volume 2? I would love a recording of a full evening with Harlan Ellison; every time I've been to a lecture/performance it has been three hours of blissful intensity.
R.Wilder
R.Wilder: YES! I hate when kids say, "That's so gay." That word is banned in my classroom unless it means happy or homosexual. I have gone to the mattresses with kids on the usage of that word.
Brian said:
"By the way, a side note to P.A. Berman, who has twice cited his gay friends "always feeling this way" as some kind of evidence. I'm not impressed. I've always been a reader."
Well, I never set out to impress you, just tell what I've heard from scores of gay people. I find it rather odd that you'd compare a fondness for literature with an overwhelming orientation towards having sex with other men. It's just not the same thing. Sex is a fundamental biological function that all normal animals have; I'm here to tell ya from sad experience that reading is NOT. However, there is a basis for saying that people have different brain structures that predispose them towards aptitude in areas and deficiencies in others. So you haven't really debunked my thesis at all by making this specious analogy.
I also don't understand this tone you're taking. I have never said that homosexuality is entirely biological. I don't think anyone KNOWS what makes people act the way they do; usually it's a combination of nature AND nurture. However, being gay is an immutable part of an individual's identity. You're not arguing that fact, are you? If so, by all means go ahead, try to find me a self-identified gay guy who will tell you one day he up and decided to be gay because it's so much fun to be persecuted and socially ostracized by one's peers and often, family.
Not even going to dignify Frank's flagrantly ignorant comment.
Bermanator
"Homosexuals have a very high standard of living..."
Which ones? The six you know, or the hundred you've seen on TV? Where the fuck does this come from?
You know, I see "tenor of the board" and even though it's correct, I think "Pavarotti?" Also, is Harlan a tenor?
Hey, I got sidetracked by a 'what if?' discussion regarding how history would have played out had Neil Young and not Plant and Page been the Lord of the Rings fan, so give me some slack. That's a full hour of coming up with revised lyrics for "Sugar Mountain," "Tonight's the Night" and "Keep on Rocking in the Free World" that I'm never going to get back.
Whoop whoop whoop,
Jon
Re: DTS's Comments. I have been struck (momentarily) mute by comments by otherwise open-minded people regarding homosexuality; the most recent being a high-minded liberal fellow commenting on the lamentable trend of gay characters on network TV, and cable shows like "Six Feet Under." Also, otherwise intelligent young people saying, "That's so gay," when labeling something strange or weird. Subtle homophobia at work.
R.Wilder
Lurk: Cynical? I went back to my dictionary to see if there was a alternate definition of the word I was unfamiliar with. (It's happened in the past, so I check when I suspect I'm not using the term the same way.)
These are the definitions found:
-------------------------------------
Given to sneering at rectitude and the conduct of life by moral principles; disbelieving in the reality of any human purposes which are not suggested or directed by self-interest or self-indulgence.
An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others.
Implies a sneering disbelief in sincerity and integrity.
------------------------------------
By "interpreting" the "tenor of the board" as cynical, you were simultaneously painting yourself as sincere and having integrity (a position with which I do not have a problem) and those of us having the temerity to suggest your advocated points were not particularly efficacious as sneering, scornful and jaded (a point with which I do take umbrage).
Disagreement, even passionate disagreement, is not cynicism.
What you are doing is a thinly veiled slap in the face, and I didn't like it.
Because – using facts, we pointed out your position on therapy was nothing more than a ephemeral construction of good intentions, hopes and wishful thinking. Dependent more on somedays and somehows than the cold hard reality of the moment.
And your closing jibe – meant to dismiss any presentation of outside factual information as slightly bumbling and automatically non-credible fails miserably. The primary difference between my presentation and Frank's less effective ones is this: I didn't go to papers that supported my cause. I didn't go to sources that could be dismissed as propaganda for my way of thinking. I went to the opposing camp and I used THEIR papers and THEIR numbers. By doing that, one eliminates the blustering and dismissiveness you're attempting now. You cannot dismiss the facts presented by your side. And that, sir, is effective debate.
HARLAN: Just got my copy of "Publishers Weekly" and now I know what you were talking about in a previous post. Glad to see that they finally ran a story.
FRANK CHURCH: In a posting just below, you wrote, in part, "Homosexuals deserve the same rights that the rest of us deserve, but I dissagree that they are some abused class. Homosexuals have a very high standard of living, and society seems to except the lifestyle much more than before. Just let them live their
lives, and we can live ours. Hold hands and sing campfire songs--you know, that kind of shit."
To borrow an apt phrase from the always eloquent Zoe Rose, Holy Fucknuts! Does the name Matthew Wayne Shepard ring a bell? It's not as if that is ancient history (say, from the 1970's).
I don't know which world you live in, but homophobia is still alive in well in this one. When I worked in the Coporate world here in Kansas City (Sprint, in Gardner,KS) there were a couple of idiots (married men, with children) that bragged about ocassionally getting drunk and looking for fag to "beat hell out of." One of them even carried a baseball bat in his truck for those purposes. (I actually pulled one of them aside -- the black one -- yeah you read that right -- and reminded him of a time not to long ago in a land not so far away when "people of color" were treated in much the same fashion -- didn't faze him -- to his way of thinking, I was comparing apples and crowbars -- homosexuals were not normal -- I think he even said they weren't the same as normal humans -- ironic). And while such violent fucks may be few and far between, the standard rejection of gays from "polite society" still goes on and on (a friend of my wife's was almost turned down for a job at AT&T some years back because his voice was a bit too feminine -- she called someone on it and embarrassed him into hiring the guy -- who turned out to be one of their best workers). Yeah, treatment of homosexuals -- from being outcast to being laid out on slab in the morgue -- may differ from state to state and country to country, but for you to believe that society accepts "their lifestyle" (especially our deeprooted Puritanical society), is just plain dumb. Holy fucknuts!
-- DTS
For further reading on the doubtfulness of attributing behaviors to genes, I suggest that people read _Exploding the Gene Myth_ by Ruth Hubbard, _It Ain't Necessarily So_ by Richard Lewontin, _In the Name of Eugenics_ by Daniel Kevles, _The Science and Politics of Racial Research_ by William Tucker, and _Vaulting Ambition_ by Philip Kitcher.
Second, I have to disagree with Rick about the politics of biological claims. I'm not convinced that attributing sexual orientation to genes is such a powerful argument. The reasons are simple:
1. It's based on very tentative science, which if proved _wrong_ will be extremely damaging for the cause;
2. Bigots can use the biological arguments in the opposite way-- likening homosexuality to congenital defects or diseases, and urging that quack "cures" be found.
3. It shares the same sordid history as many other claims of behavioral biology-- admittedly, it's advocated for a more humane reason, but it's a history that gives me a LOT of pause.
By the way, a side note to P.A. Berman, who has twice cited his gay friends "always feeling this way" as some kind of evidence. I'm not impressed. I've always been a reader. I've always enjoyed music. I've always enjoyed cartoons. I've always been a social outsider who doesn't like sports, loves to read, and hasn't had any problems with peoples' sexuality. Does this as-far-as-I-can-recall thing indicate a biological basis for these?
>here you are, busily rewriting the history of that discussion<
Hardly. I said that cynicism was high about the effectiveness of therapy. That's not a rewrite of anything, but an interpretation of the tenor of the board at the time. You, if I recall, were one of the most cynical. Whether or not your feelings were based on so-called "facts" was not at issue.
And let's not go down the "published papers" road again. Frank trundles that one out every now and then, and it never works.
Lurk: "Oh, and Xanadu....there are lies, damned lies, statistics, and finally Internet bulletin board 'facts.' "
Huh? The facts, such as they were – were gleaned from the published papers _supporting_ therapy options – FROM THE PEDOPHILE CAMP. And THEY said there was still a 1 in 8 to a 1 in 5 chance of recidivism in the first 4/5 years - regardless of treatments or therapies applied. THAT was the source of opposition to your advocated therapy position, not cynicism or reliance on unsupported polemic.
"Let's just accept that Webderland is a place for polemic, and hardly usable as a citable referent." – Done.
But I have to note, you speak out so strongly against revisionism in moviemaking and yet here you are, busily rewriting the history of that discussion...
Wow, someone actually mentioned XTC. This music goes far beyond the limited term, "Rock And Roll" and qualifies as free floating art in my book. Apple Venus reminds me of the Beatles mixed with Morricone. Amazing stuff; everyone should try and check this band out.
---------------------
Actually, the Beastie Boys are quite talented--but to each his own.
Harlan, sorry about your financial situation. I know from first hand knowledge that money plays a large part in stressful situations, but I hope all goes well. Just keep having those nirvana like typewriter moments and all will be fine.
---------------------------------
Lynn, a bit over the top again, as usual. I never implied that Pedophilia was a good thing, or was I rationalizing it at any time. But Psychology studies do indicate that pedophiles don't aquait what they do with abuse; they think of it as love. They are wrong, but that is beside the point. This is how they think. I also agree that it is a fetish, but even fetishes are a mystery. I certainly think pedophiles should be locked away for life, but studying them is also important.
------------------------
Zoe, ah, um, your self esteem harp recital is getting obvious. Harlan is having fun with you, you understand? Take certain things with a grain of salt--or gunpowder.
--------------------
Homosexuals deserve the same rights that the rest of us deserve, but I dissagree that they are some abused class. Homosexuals have a very high standard of living, and society seems to except the lifestyle much more than before. Just let them live their lives, and we can live ours. Hold hands and sing campfire songs--you know, that kind of shit.
Well, whattaya know? Maybe, the Senate CAN do something right. They just nixed the bill to drill for oil in Alaska.
Man, I just wanna hear that there's oil underneath the White House.
Jim,
I'll second that suggestion. I might also throw in a newer album of theirs, "Apple Venus Vol. 1", as very springy (for the most part).
-Andrew
Um, I have NO idea how that happened...
Can I just say, apropos of nothing, that XTC's SKYLARKING is the PERFECT soundtrack for a beautiful spring day?
"Trees are dancing drunk with nectar
Grass is waving underwater..."
Can I just say, apropos of nothing, that XTC's SKYLARKING is the PERFECT soundtrack for a beautiful spring day?
"Trees are dancing drunk with nectar
Grass is waving underwater..."
Can I just say, apropos of nothing, that XTC's SKYLARKING is the PERFECT soundtrack for a beautiful spring day?
"Trees are dancing drunk with nectar
Grass is waving underwater..."
Lurk stated:
"I say fuck genetics. I know, it's a useless thing to say, and nothing is going to stop the bulldozer of genetic research and applications, but it feels good to say anyway. So I'll say it again: fuck genetics."
Where it is used to spurious purposes, such as Seinfeld's gag about scientists choosing to create a seedless watermelon over a cure for cancer, I would wholly agree with you.
However, in the discovery of the genetic marker for the illness of schizophrenia being located on the 22nd chromosome, and the resultant possibility to isolate the genetic dysfunction that triggers this disease, I can speak from experience that I would give a great deal to see this research go forward. Just personal experience combined with a desire to not have others go through what my brother-in-law tried to cope with.
When it comes to suffering from difficult illness, how many others sit in the same boat?
Love to all, Melissa
Melissa~ International sales of software are restricted due to the level of encryption used on the software. When I worked for a software company, we actually had two different versions of the product - one domestic, one international. It's the silliest thing, a gentleman's agreement not to compromise (????) the national security by shipping such encrypted items overseas. I could write "jelly beans" in the package contents on the customs form and be done with it.
L.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether Homosexuality is a result of genes, environment, or personal choice. I'm not particularly offended by the practice, and I certainly don't believe it's a sin. HOMOSEXUALITY DOESN'T BUG ME ONE IOTA, and the fact that people STILL fulminate against it just confounds me to no end. Oysters and snails, after all.
Still, as Rick pointed out, the notion of a Gay Gene can be an important political tool against discrimination. Certainly the testimony of my gay friends indicates something innate; I haven't heard ONE say, "Well, one day I just got TIRED of (substitute slang word for genitalia), so I decided to try something new." It's hardly been determined that the GG exists, however. Even if there IS a common genetic marker among homosexuals, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's there JUST to determine sexuality. MANY phenotypical behaviors can arise from a single genotype, so the jury is still out on that one.
Someone pointed out that evolution would seem to select against homosexuality, since gay people don't reproduce. Actually, I don't know if that's true. I don't have any hard statistics on hand, but gay men and women appear as eager to breed as anyone else. Even if they aren't bisexual, many engage in straight sex purely for reproductive purposes. And, of course, we have artificial insemination which bypasses hetero intercourse completely. So the notion of homosexuality as an evolutionary dead end isn't as cut-and-dried as it seems.
BERMANATOR: You wrote: "Of course you're right-- if the kiddie porn is completely fabricated and there are no real children involved at all, then it's no one's business. But if real kids are just being cut and pasted into sexual positions, what do you think of that? That can't be legal, can it? Bottom line is that I don't know enough about that issue to really say more than that."
Hmmm. Well, I'd say that cut-and-pasting would STILL be protected under the First Amendment. As long as the overall SITUATION is imaginary, and doesn't reflect actual events, then it doesn't matter if the materials are drawn from real life. Collage and satire both do the same thing, and THEY'RE protected as free speech. If I manipulated a photograph of G.W. Bush to make him look like a total goofball (imagine that), and then used it as wallpaper on my laptop, that would be well within my rights.
Of course, the situation we're talking about wouldn't be EXACTLY the same. If some pervo snaps a picture of his neighbor's six year old son, and cuts-and-pastes him into sexual positions, then said pervo couldn't post it on the Web or trade it with other sickos. That would definitely be an invasion of privacy, and there would be legal and civil recourses for the kid's parents.
*sigh* I have to admit, this decision bums me out not a little bit. Don't misunderstand me--I'm the biggest First Amendment freak you'll ever meet. I think the Bill of Rights is one of the strongest arguments that the human race ISN'T an evolutionary misstep that the Earth would be better off without. Just the same, I'm not raising any lighters about the Court's decision. Yes, it was the right call, but the idea that virtual kiddie porn is perfectly legal and protected under the law is a depressing one. Sometimes I'd like to just put aside my beliefs, and go all Hulk Smash! on some issues.
Ideals can be a real bitch to have.
CEP: Your assessment of Pullman's third book is almost exactly what my friend said about it. I guess I'll try them out, with the knowledge that the ending may disappoint me. Thanks.
Do you think they're better than Harry Potter, if you HAD to compare?
Bermanator
>Actually, the _facts_ revealed the efficacy of such a course was unacceptably low,<
Oh, and Xanadu....there are lies, damned lies, statistics, and finally Internet bulletin board "facts." Let's just accept that Webderland is a place for polemic, and hardly usable as a citable referent.
Pedophilia is no more a fetish than rape. While a fetish reflects a desire that extends, or supplements a natural sexual energy, love of children isn't some sexual garnish: It's a desire to act out aggression and power. Period.
As for Arafat, I'm beginning to think Arafat's only purpose for living is the destruction of Israel. Didn't Israel offer him 99% of his demands at the Oslo Summit and he simply walked out?
He has said repeatedly in his office as the JDF penetrated his fortress: "I want to be a martyr. Martyr! Martyr! Martyr!"
There are those in the PLO who disagree with Arafat, but I doubt they're very popular or have a long lifespan if they become vocal. It seems like a Palestinian homeland is secondary to driving PLO politics. Again, it just SEEMS to ME that a leader who is unwilling to demand his people stop blowing themselves up in markets and at bus stops really has no desire for peace.
Melissa, I've bought a few things from Canada in the last few weeks and the seller insisted on using Canadian Post which cost almost as much as the items I bought for 4-7 day delivery. I can only imagine the other way is as much? I guess package tracking costs money, too. Is there still something like the OLD American Express international mailstops? Perhaps FedEx?
>But that was an interesting way to slant the opposition to your position.<
Hey, I try my best.
Rick, no doubt that there is value in scientific research to fight crummy attitudes. IF that's what the research is used for. It's also just as likely to be used for the opposite purpose (a la Gattaca), and I think some of our friendly neighborhood insurance companies are trying their damndest to do that very thing right now...lump people into groups based on their genetic codes, and discriminate against those who don't meet their current standards.
I say fuck genetics. I know, it's a useless thing to say, and nothing is going to stop the bulldozer of genetic research and applications, but it feels good to say anyway. So I'll say it again: fuck genetics.
Some links:
Compares homosexuality to hand preference as a genetic trait:
http://members.aol.com/gaygene/pages/traittab.htm
Explains Dean Hamer's theory
http://www.counterbalance.com/genetics/orient-frame.html
There is also a lot of debunking info on the web, which discredits the gay gene research. I really don't have the depth of understanding of genetics to go toe to toe on the science. From my friends who are gay, I generally get the impression that being gay is inherent to who they are, and that even if they chose to be celibate or pretended to be straight, they would not be able to "overcome" or ignore their gayness. I'm sure some of it is nurture, some of it is hormones,and some of it is predisposition, just like anything else. I'm fairly sure it's immutable, though, and not simply a matter of "preference."
But ultimately, Lurk and Lovegod, I agree with you. It doesn't matter WHY a person is gay. What consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is nobody's business, and people shouldn't have to be ashamed of who they are if they're not hurting anyone. As long as they love each other, isn't that what we want in the world?
Anyone watch The Shield? There was a serious, deep, long soul kiss between two guys the episode before last. That show really pushes the boundaries of TV.
Bermanator
Hello all. Not much time here for the last few days; there'll be far less time available in the near future, so I'll make this quick.
I was looking to purchase the "I Have No Mouth, And I Must Scream" game for the husband from the store here at the site. Yes, I know, he and Mr. Ellison got into a bit of a tiff over shaving pennies, but the price offered here is the cheapest so far. I read a bit about it, until I get to the point where it states: "no orders from outside the USA".
No problem with that, except a query; Why?
Re; being gay. I recall the interview with Senator Lott where he postulated that persons of alternate sexuality could be talked out of their sexual proclivities with counselling. Well, if that logic follows, shouldn't straight people be able to be talked into being gay?
Well, I'm off to luxuriate with my daughter in our tremendous above ground pool, courtesy of my husband's breath to inflate it. Who needs the Riviera?
Love to all, Melissa
Lurk: "Others, including myself, advocated therapies, but the level of cynicism about the efficacy of such a course was pretty high." – Actually, the _facts_ revealed the efficacy of such a course was unacceptably low, even when drawn from the statistics provided by _advocates_ of the therapy course. But that was an interesting way to slant the opposition to your position.
Genes: Brian summed it up pretty well, by my book, with a nod of agreement to Lurk, too.
There is scientific evidence that indicates there is a genetic component to homosexuality. The twins study Berman mentions is a good example, and there's nothing "quasiscientific" about it. It's correct, as Brian states, that we don't know too much about the actual gene, but the research, if you care to look it up, makes a pretty strong case that there IS a strong correlation.
This is not important because homosexuals want to support the notion that one is "born gay." It is important because many of the people and organizations that bash gays do so by claiming that homosexuality is a pure choice. This allows them to claim that (a) people can be "indoctrinated" into the practice and (b) a gay person can "change" their orientation by willpower and the love of God (any maybe being tied to a chair and being screamed at for 4 or 5 days).
Establishing a physical basis for the reasons people act a certain way prevents us from demonizing them. This is true for homosexuals, for people who are severely depressed or bipolar, even for pedophiles. And how horrible it is that the prevailing attitudes of much of our citizenry would group these three together as "unfortunate choices."
I don't think it takes too big a leap to see that there is value in using scientific research to fight such attitudes.
{RANT}
Will someone please explain to me why it's such a surprise that children raised in refugee camps, who have known nothing but occupation their entire lives, why is it such a surprise that they're willing to *kill* themselves in an act of defiance against their oppressors? It isn't as if they can go out and join the Army, fight for their country, and get money for college at the same time, now, is it? It isn't as if they can hope to protest peacefully without being shot down by Israeli troops. It isn't as if any form of non-violent resistance would do anything to change their situation. Israel has created the perfect breeding ground for terrorists by their treatment of Palestinians and now they act as if they have no part in the violence. I'm not a poli-sci specialist, but jumpin' jehosaphat, you don't create loyal citizens by treating people like animals! You don't gain the love of your people by bulldozing their homes! And you certainly don't make a bad situation better by escalating the violence! If the Butcher of Beirut's first response is violence, why should he expect anything less from the Palestinians!
These people are sitting on the greatest tourist trap ever created and all they can do is shoot at each other! Rule #1: BULLETS AND BOMBS ARE BAD FOR BUSINESS!
{/RANT}
::sigh:: And no, I don't feel better.
L.
Cindy, I too wonder about the lack of logic behind the treatment of Arafat. Before the current wave of suicide bombings and Sharon's military response, Arafat was increasingly seen as a marginal leader, not in control of his own factions (Fatah, etc.), let alone Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Destroying his headquarters and besieging him in his office -- where he still can make phone calls, send out video messages and meet with advisors and foreign dignitaries like Colin Powell -- has done more to restore his reputation on the so-called "Arab street" than anything else since Intifada II began...
If Sharon had simply blown him up, or captured him and given him a one-way ticket to Tunisia (as happened before), the damage to Israel's standing would have been less than what has actually happened. OTOH (sorry, On the other hand), for all of Arafat's posturing about dying a martyr, I don't see him charging out of his hideout, guns blazing, "Butch and Sundance" style...
Basically, Arafat's a coward more willing to send teenage girls to die than actually act like the leader of a nation. And Sharon has never been anything other than a soldier -- put a suit on him, give him a fancy title, and he still believes that enough military force will break the Palestinian people (and if not, then enough will die to avenge the deaths of Israelis).
But to answer your question -- the men waiting in the wings should Arafat die are every bit as radical, but younger and more energetic. Some few are considered moderates, but most are on record as advocating driving the Israelis into the sea...
Talkin' about a "gay gene" is ok, just remember what's really important: lovin'. Lovin' in the morning, lovin' in evening, lovin' that afternoon delight. It's not what's up your alley (as long as it is consenting adults), it's that someone's up your alley, my alley, everyone's long corridor. If you're Christian, follow the juicy Jesus; if you're Buddhist, get the bountiful Buddha; if you follow the Muslim path, or you're Jewish, love each other's Middle-eastern meat. Feel your hormones poppin' and snappin' and the blood flowing; penetrate life; open wide the moisture of your mind. Become a Lovegod.
>Why don't the Israelis get rid of Arafat now <
"Get rid of" suggests either shooting him or stuffing him on an airplane and sending him to...where?
Neither option is an easy one.
Jon, I did note the passing of Justice White. Unfortunately, I live near Detroit, not known as a particularly great newspaper town (although we have great sports writers like Mitch Albom and Joe Falls, and the immortal Ernie Harwell calling games for a team that celebrated being 1-11).
So you can see where this town's priorities lie...and you probably won't be surprised when the eulogies for Byron White in the News and Free Press actually had the headline:
"Justice White, former Lion, dead at 84"
Like the most important thing is this great man's life was his three-year NFL career in the '40s!
I now dread the eventual eulogy for Gerald Ford, a University of Michigan football standout who just happened to have a minor career in politics...
Why don't the Israelis get rid of Arafat now that they have him surrounded in his compound? Is it because they don't know if his successor might be worse?
Cindy
>As for Pedophilia, honestly? I think it's just an extreme fetish<
Good point, Jason. If so, the question becomes what to do about them. Previously we discussed this here, and there was a sizable group who basically wanted to go the Frankenstein villagers route, and just burn the bastards. Others, including myself, advocated therapies, but the level of cynicism about the efficacy of such a course was pretty high.
The current approach (I suppose a compromise between execution and rehabilitation) is jailing. Kind of the fallback position for any social problem, and it of course does nothing to prevent new cases from arising. We'll never get rid of this problem until we ask ourselves, honestly, why does it happen? I just hope that we don't look to GENES for the answer, because it ain't therer.
>Why does homosexuality require this quasiscientific rationale? <
I'd hope that the gay community wasn't gunning too hard for this. These kinds of things tend to bite you on the ass, if you're not careful. While the upside may be...hey, it's natural, accept us, the downside will be like you said, Brian...hey, this is a birth defect, let's terminate the pregnancy. Or if you happen to be alive, let's develop gene therapies to wipe out your homosexuality...
just stepping into the minefield of the nature nurture debate. I gotta agree with CEP. Just because you're genetically predisposed to something doesn't mean you're going to do it.
Also Berman I may be wrong on this, but I remember being taught that homosexuality wasn't just genetic, it was also influences by what hormones are present or not present during development.
Personally I think sexuality is a little more fluid than gay straight, and a lot of it has to do with development and environment. That's not to say being gay is a choice, I don't think it is, but I do think that like strict heterosexulality it's one an extreme end, and most people fall somewhere in the middle. Culture and society I think tends to obscure that. In 16th-17th century Japan samurai, thought it normal to have sex with each other. In ancient Greece and Rome sex with men and women was culturally accepted. Do I think that everyone who had sex with a member of the same gender is gay? No. I think culturally since it was not looked down upon I think that bisexuality or homosexulaity was allowed to be more open. A good modern day example is that two women together in today's socity doesn't have the same stigma that two men does. Women are allowed to explore that aspect of their sexuality, and (it may be just the greater exposure that bisexual women have, but it appears that there are more bisexual women then there are bisexual men, and I don't think that's genetics.
As for Pedophilia, honestly? I think it's just an extreme fetish. A disgusting one sure, but it's just a fetish, and fetishfor the most part has external factors. Something happened to them that hit that part of their brain that associated children with sexual pleasure and they succummed to it. are some people predisposed to it? Probably, same way some people are predisposed to alchoholism, but doesn't make 'em a born alchoholic.
Re gay genes. I'm sure it sounds more precise when we say that "it's located on the leg of the Y chromosome," but that doesn't constitute proof that this gene governs sexual orientation.
The arguments over "gay genes" don't have very much scientific support-- as I'd pointed out, we're barely knowledgeable about things which everyone has, and which clearly _are_ based on genes, let alone things that affect only certain segments of the population. To be really blunt, it's as much a scientific issue as developing Star Trek transporter technology-- sure, we _might_ find an answer, but we're far from it right now.
Rather, the arguments are mainly advanced to offer the argument that homosexuality congenital, and not a "learned" or adapted behavior. It's an attempt to draw an analogy to hair or skin color-- it's there, it has no bearing on the content of one's character, it's natural, and shouldn't be oppressed.
But the problem is that congenital conditions can be equally treated as _diseases_, and this is the danger of using genetic arguments to defend homosexuality; a bigot is more likely to see a "gay gene" as a birth _defect_. (A _really serious_ bigot would also see black skin as a birth defect as well.)
My own position is this. Why does homosexuality require this quasiscientific rationale? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was firmly established that sexual orientation was _not_ derived from the genes. Would this make homosexuality "wrong?" Should we then condemn it because it's an acquired behavior, like learning to play the piano or use a word processor? I don't think so.
I forget who said "The various forms of fucking do not require my endorsement," but it's a lovely sentiment, doncha think?
Okay, stepping away from the whole genetic question for a second (quickly - I think this whole genetic predisposition thing is rather overstated), I have some interesting news for fellow fans of silly movies: "Top Secret" finally comes out on DVD in July. Yippee!
Sigh. [SARCASM] Let's hear it for predestination as an excuse for intellectual dishonesty and outright misconduct, shall we? [/SARCASM]
I am so sick of an individual's worth being defined by genetic means--usually as an excuse for the definer's fear of something he does not understand or share becoming a mark of superiority of the definer--that I've had to clean the puke off my keyboard twice. Dammit, I have Ashkenazim genes from my mother's side of the family. Does that mean that I have a predisposition for borscht? Or does my love of shellfish, particularly oysters, and pepperoni pizzas somehow mean that I've overcome my genetic heritage?
OK. Diet is a somewhat less imperative issue than sexuality (although if we're dealing with lactose intolerance and phenylketonuria, that's a bit different!). So what? Our genetic heritage is the blank paper on which the stories of our lives are written. Sometimes it's a bit harder to write clearly on a crummy paper towel than Southworth Bond. However, one can write subpornographic drivel on the Southworth Bond, just as one can write WAR AND PEACE on the paper towel. Can we please move on to something that (a) matters and (b) isn't an argument designed to treat individuals as faceless members of a class?
Bermanator:
His Dark Materials is certainly worth reading. Contrary to US marketing, it's not a "children's book." Pullman's reach exceeds his grasp, particularly in the last segment of the third book (where he is rushing to tie up loose ends). They're worth looking at for just the cover art--proof that cover art can be attractive, affordable, consistent with the contents, and NOT look like something that would grace the cover of a 1926 AMAZING.
THE AMBER SPYGLASS (the last book) is a rather frustrating book. Until Will and Lyra emerge from the underworld, things are moving along quite nicely. Suddenly, though, it's as if Pullman was told, "You can finish your story, or you can finish your polemic--but you've only got 100 manuscript pages to do it in. Choose one and do it." Unfortunately, he chose to finish the polemic, which terribly weakens the book and partially undermines the entire trilogy. That said, the underlying vision of the book and the unpretentious respect that he shows for readers who don't turn their brains off when they open a book are particularly welcome in this day and age of Grisham's Law ("bad fiction drives good fiction out of the public's eye").
>However, most gay people I know say they've always been gay, that they were born that way <
P.A., I'm sure this is true. But how does genetically mapping this help anyone? My first son has always been shy and introverted, he was born that way...is there a "shy and introverted" gene? Even if there is, does it matter? Is the ultimate goal here to target those genes and modify them in utero?
"Mrs. Smith, we have reason to believe from our genetic scan of your fetus that your child might be gay." Or "according to the mapping, Mrs. Smith, your kid will be short, have an excitable temper, and may or may not become a great writer." Mrs. Smith decides neither scenario is worth the hassle, and aborts.
Slowly but surely, choice dwindles away. We start to accept the notion that we have no choice, everything that we are is predetermined. We've already bought into that as citizen-consumers. Dammit, I'm not going to let every part of me be mapped onto some allele and be told I finally have no control over who I am. Jean-Paul Sarte, where are you now that we really need you?
I honestly don't know if there is a gay gene or not. My point is that is DOESN'T MATTER. Pointing to genes as a reason for our behaviors is a dead end, people. We have to take responsibility (and pride) for who we are.
I just don't like the trend these days of passing the buck. If it's not genes, it's our parents, or "society," or whomever or whatever else we can find to attribute imperatives to. Whatever happened to free will, or the existential mandate? Just watch, when the lawsuits against the Church really get going, for how many psychological and maybe even medical profiles are dragged out to defend these priests. "He couldn't help it, he's got a fondling gene," or "he's not to blame, his parents were nudists," etc.
Bermanator: Please, send me the URL's.
To change the subject: Has anyone read the trilogy "His Dark Matter" by Philip Pullman? I've heard good things and bad things about it. Is it worthwhile?
Bermanator
The Gay Gene was located on the long arm of the X chromosome. It is carried by the mother, who may not be affected by the gene herself but would pass it on. There are trends in families which can be mapped, and studies of twins who were raised in different households seems to indicate a familial link. I can provide some URLs to source material if anyone really wants them.
I realize that homosexuality is influenced by socialization. Isn't everything? However, most gay people I know say they've always been gay, that they were born that way and, in spite of valiant efforts to suppress it or subvert it, they remain gay. Homosexuality is part of nature: there is ample evidence of animals being homosexuals-- and not just out of sexual frustration, either.
For me, the bottom line that people are what they are. It's not a choice to be gay any more than it's a choice to be a brunette-- you can hide it all you want, but that's still what you are. It's not worth me arguing about it.
And that's all I'm going to say about this.
Bermanator
I was just listening to The Howard Stern Show on the way into work (one more week, and I'm free! Free! ...picture the old man in the dungeon in Mel Brook's History Of The World Part One as he shouts with glee that he is free and then tosses the stiffened, dead carcasses of the little birds that kept him company through the jail bars, one by one, as they drop to the ground......Free! Free!).
Ahem, anyway, I'm listening to Howard Stern talking about being stuck in traffic and being forced to read The New York Times cover to cover and he hit the obituaries and got depressed. Why? He asks Robin, his sidekick, what her favorite episode of Twilight Zone is. "The cookbook episode" she shouts excitedly and Howard agrees, "Yes, To Serve Man". He then, get this, eulogizes Damon Knight. Not that he knew who Knight was, but the obituary obviously mentions To Serve Man and Howard is remarking on the loss of a writer who gave him one of the great joys in his television viewing life.
Later, he starts talking about Robert Urich.....so, on the Howard Stern show, we see the first example of the common media addressing the death of Damon Knight BEFORE they address the death of Robert Urich! Who'da thunk it?
-TODD
Helz: You know, there's a "private members' bill" joke somewhere related to Clarence Thomas, but I can't come up with it right now. I'm surprised no one noticed that Byron White died, though -- there are now no living former Supreme Court Justices. I hadn't known that White, a conservative judge, was appointed by Jack Kennedy.
Damon Knight: The Man in the Tree was a fine novel 'about' religion, the only novel-length work I read by the man. The newsticker on Cablepulse 24 ran an obit for him, which I thought was nice (and surprising).
Tom Bacig: Is the sf course at Minnesota stuck in the same 'it's a generic bums-in-seats-course-that-we-only-deign-to-offer sometimes limbo that seems to happen at a lot of Canadian campuses? Actually, maybe you shouldn't answer that. The English dept. of the university here runs most of its 'popular' courses with sessionals and tends to avoid expanding the courses or allowing for upper-level honours courses, even though the 2nd year pop culture course draws 600 people a year and the new quasi-communications faculty has started to poach sessionals and advanced level topics because the English dept. won't use them. The sf course got split into two half courses, which had the interesting effect of dropping enrollment from 100 to less than 50 -- pretty funny, given that the half-courses were supposed to boost enrollment. The children's lit course, though, continues to grow and devour like the Chicken Heart, in part because it fulfills a second teachable requirement for a lot of people planning to go into teacher's college. Ah, fun days.
Jon
LEE-YIN ( The Texas pronunciation of Lynn),
I agree with your assesment about pedophiles having something missing in their brains. It seems to me that they must have something missing in their brains to think that the public would buy that bullshit. If they honestly believed they weren't hurting the children but loving them then wouldn't they be doing it in public, in broad daylight? If they don't believe that what they do is wrong then why should they scurry like rats when the lights come on? If they really held such conviction about their behaviour then wouldn't they be trying to educate the public rather than hide?
Wait though, Lynn, disabuse me of this idea if you can but it seems to me that rape IS about sex or it wouldn't be a sexual crime. Isn't it oversimplification to say it isn't? Aren't rapists just perverts who get turned on by forced sexual intercourse in the same manner that pedophiles are perverts who get turned on by the bodies of children?
If it was only about power and control wouldn't some rapist be satisfied to just grab people and sit on or pin them?
Cindy
Well, this place certainly never has a dull day. Not one.
Jim Hess:
"Yes? And?"
And the good guys won one. One. I won't settle for that, but one is better than none. It's a start. One has to fight one's battles, and win what one can. That's all. I'm just damned impressed with the folks at Tattered Cover, more now than before. Your statement does bring up a question for all: which is worse, the dedicated goose-stepping enemies of freedom, or the cynical opportunists who pander to them?
You have to battle the T-Rex to get to Tattered Cover (or other points north). You poor sod. I was wondering if there were any alternatives to I-25, and if they were any good. One never knows if one has to go the other way, which can be just as congested.
Okay, Rick, that was damned funny. I wonder now if I can watch the new Twilight Penis with a straight face.
Xanadu:
I have a particular interest in the nature vs. nurture debate going on concering homosexuality, since I'm gay myself. I'm not sure how I ended up this way. I did not make a conscious decision to be gay. In fact, I really did not want these feelings that I vaguely knew were frowned upon. However, they were a part of me and would not go away. I did not have an absent father, nor did I fit any other part of the "profile" that psychiatrists came up with long before I was born.
As far as how such a gene would survive, since it would seem to mitigate against procreation, keep in mind that there are many genetic traits that should have spelled death to a genome before we created civilization (such as it is). Poor eyesight, for example.
I was a facilitator for a men's coming out discussion group for many years, and several of the men had married and had children, all in hope of "curing" themselves of their sexual orientation. Some were still married, and trying to figure out how to tell their wives. In most cases, they even loved thier wives, but were not very involved sexually. Homosexuals can procreate, and still have the instinctive desire to do so.
Still, I can't help feeling the jury is still out on this one, and I suspect that the causes of homosexuality may be a maddeningly complex mixture of nature AND nuture. The answers will take a long time to come to the surface.
A question to all:
Has anyone here experienced a microburst? One hit my place of employment yesterday. There were almost no clouds in the sky, suddenly, WHOOOSSSHHH! A gust of wind sounding like the California Zephyr roared by, the front door to the building was almost torn off its hinges, and then the ceiling tiles were pushed up, rippling down the hallway like upside-down waves. Damn. It was lucky no one was outside when it hit. I understand the wind velocity in a microburst can exceed 100 mph.
No wonder they can slam airliners down to the ground.
Freaky deaky.
Chuck
Rick~ The flexible number of posts is quite handy. Bravo. Buy yourself a beer from me.
L.
Rick,
Goddamn, but that was funny! A dimension of penis, indeed....
Regards,
Joseph
I gleefully await the post... (giggle)
DAMN! I wonder how much it'll fetch on Ebay?
Thanks, Mr. Ellison, but I'd settle for a humble scribble someday. :)
Jay
Rick - Love the entry choice dealy. Very helpful.
Jim - I wouldn't wish seeing it a second time on anyone, so we'll just say - it happened, it rocked, thank god it's over.
Tom - My thanks.
Frank - I should already be regretting it, tell the truth. But even if it's in low gear and I probably don't even register to the man, it's great to be able to look on this page, see a well-spoken, educated, truly sharp-tongued Great Author like Harlan responding to half-educated, blossom-like, and faraway unimportant me. As for having a head on my shoulders - so THAT's what this college degree has done for me! ;) My thanks.
Harlan-
The most recent of your notes to me has made me realize that age is indeed a factor here. Had you not called it forth I may have let this tidbit slip my mind; alas, you have managed to highlight it clearly. Having never really met anybody as impressive as the crowd of articulate, witty, etcetera, etcetera, folks that you are lucky enough to have been in contact with, I will have to make do with my precious few online acquaintances with the heroes of the day - such as yourself.
Never fear. Your low, energy-conserving first gear that you employ when posting to me is good enough for this poor uneducated slob of a college student. I will forever remember that in some way I attracted your attention, if only by my initial stupidity and enduring need to respond in kind.
You say I've no idea how awfully you could destroy any kind of positive thought I may have had about myself (you expressed it much more impressively, I admit). Untrue! The previews, however lacking in effort by you they may be, are enough to keep me well satiated for some time. Easily pleased? Damned skippy.
The fact that you likened me to someone that could be related to you made me pick up the phone immediately: "Mom? Dad? Tell me again that I wasn't adopted." But really, Papa Harlan - I'm flattered. Amazed, too, that you offer hope that we might share some traits. I feel validated; I feel martyred; I feel numb with the anticipation that someday I, too, may feel better about myself by merely pointing out the lack of experience (education? wittiness? intellect? All of the above.), the errors, and the modern-day foolishness of others in a humorous and infamous manner. Oh, that the day might come sooner.
I'm enjoying my daily viewing of this board immensely, awaiting the day you tire of even initiating that lowly first gear in order to reiterate to me the redundant idiocy of my posts. Hopefully THAT is a faraway day. Meanwhile I will stay and enjoy the company of this new crowd.
Music, daddy-o? You would cringe at my actual taste and lack thereof, so I will answer only that the Bumphuque Boys will have to await the perversion of younger illiterates than I. A pleasure, as always.
--Your partially eviscerated carcass of a plowboy (I'm assuming plowgirl would be an inappropriate alteration),
--Zoe Rose
Re "lie" versus "lay." I recall an aside Harlan made about one of his many mentors-- perhaps James Blish, or Theodore Sturgeon-- where he said he was still "doing battle" with the distinction between "lie" and "lay." So I figure, if Harlan's telling _us_ to get it straight, he's doing it out of hard-won wisdom.
Re gay genes. Gang, _always_ take chatter about genes for behaviors with a grain of salt. For one thing, an actual "gene" isn't always so easy to quantify. For another, the behavior is even _harder_ to quantify-- especialy in something as fluid as sexuality.
For example, let's say we have a man who's never had a gay experience in his life. Put him in prison for ten years. Or, isolate him in a men-only facility of some sort for a long period of time. Chances are, he'll have a gay experience-- if he's a strong enough guy, he might even do it voluntarily. Now, at what point would we say he has a "gay gene?"
Most of the claims are based on a simple methodology. We have two groups of people, one of whom performs a particular behavior. If we analyze their genes, and find a significant disparity in a particular gene in group A, then it's claimed that this disparity contains a "gene" for that behavior. This isn't exactly proof.
Consider that a great deal of organic development occurs after the genes have arranged themselves. There are factors within the womb that are significant (viral infections that can raise the chances of schizophrenia, exposure to Thalidomide, etc.), and many of these are unknown at the present time. So it's really far too early to start taking this chat about "gay genes" seriously.
After all, we don't talk about a "gene" for the mating urge, or a "gene" for language, or a "gene" for having erections or controlling one's bowels. And _all_ of these are behaviors that are strongly rooted in biology. If we can't talk about "genes" for those, when how can we possibly talk about "genes" for something whose causes are _not_ clearly rooted in biology?
Read Damon Knight's short fiction, read his CV trilogy of novels, read his IN SEARCH OF WONDER, read his CREATING SHORT FICTION, check not a few of his anthologies...and also read Kate Wilhelm. They've done better for us than we have any reason to expect.
Lurk, you said "It's all an eerie, disgusting mess, and I'm sure we'll end up blaming it on something else besides ourselves."
Since I've made it a habit of jumping down your throat and I really DO try to learn from my errors, I'm requesting some enlightenment.
When you say, "besides ourselves", are you referring to society as a whole, or the specific individuals involved?
P.S. All: Since my writing is for shit. Would "something else besides" be one of those multiply redundant redundancies Harlan just whacked us about?
Ooo--thumbs up here also to Fawlty Towers! My favorite bit is the one previously mentioned, in which Basil deals with the deaf woman who refuses to turn up her hearing aid because it uses up the batteries. He repeatedly pretends to talk, causing her to turn up her hearing aid all the way, and then starts yelling at the top of his lungs. She startles back, hitting her head on something, and while Sybil tries to comfort her, Basil picks up an imaginary object from the floor and says "is this a piece of your brain?"
I also love the one where a kid keeps making obnoxious demands on Basil and tells him that his chips are "awful" and "the wrong shape." Basil then enters a tirade asking him how he usually has his chips--"Mickey Mouse shape? Smarties shape? Amphibious landing craft shape? Poke-in-the-eye shape?" Afterwards, as he leaves, he swiftly elbows the kid in the head.
For a fun read, "The Complete Fawlty Towers" which has all the scripts from the show (I think--there didn't seem to be that many) must be recommended. On a vaguely English-related note, the book of radio scripts from "Hitchhikers" is awfully funny as well--more British references than the TV or novel versions, I thought.
Bermanator: Actually, I have to go with Lurk on this one. You're gonna have a serious, uphill battle proving a genetic basis for homosexuality.
First of all, any specific gene for homosexuality would almost automatically die out, since homosexuals do not, generally, pass on their genes. Thus, it would have to be part of one or more seperate genes that have some evolutionary advantage - a tough thing to identify on a good day. Next, you would have to remove any significant environmental factors to PROVE it's genetic factors at work. As a cross-check, you're going to have to examine identical twins and correlate sexual orientation between them, after factoring out environmental factors there, too.
Since no other species practices permanent homosexual pair-bonding - you lose a significant pointer to genetic factors there. (You can find isolated incidents, especially among adolescent males - but in any significant mixed population - pair-bonding is strictly hetero.)
I'm still waiting for this page to load.
Never mind. I'm going home to bed. *sigh*
H yeesh..first evening this week I get down here at a reasonable hour and I'm starting at that stupid progress bar.
Is the Internet slow..right this minute? Or is this this web site?
Heather
LIVIN' LARGE, BUT STEPPIN' NEAR,
TO HIP YOUR CHARGE, TO STILL YO FEAR:
JAY: Sorry, dude. I did indeed miss the satire. First joint, little finger, right hand, in the regular post to you. Thass how we Yakusa apologize.
ROB: Copies of THE HARLAN ELLISON HORNBOOK are available from us on the booklist. The HERC booklist, which is reproduced somewhere in this electronic Sargasso of Rick's. Books in mint condition, and personally signed by Algerian hunchbacked dwarfs.
CHARLIE: Schenectady, not Poughkeepsie.
MS. ZOE ROSE and
MR. TOM BACIG: First off, I'm actually rather flattered and pleased that you've paid such attention to my poor efforts, Mr. Bacig (he said, attempting humility but hampered by the blinding effulgence of his glowing talent). There are several vital corrections you should make, however, to the precis of the assignment as you've posted it. First, the title of the sequel to DANGEROUS VISIONS is AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS not "Dangerous Visions Again." Second, the film is based on the story, true; but it ain't a "short story." It is a novella. Lengths of fiction are specific as to designation--said lengths I'm not going to look up, as I'm sure some pedant hereabouts will enter the clarification--but it goes . . . short story, novelette, novella (or short novel), novel. "A Boy and His Dog"--just that section of the proposed full novel--which is actually part 2 of the book--runs something like 18,000 words. Novella. Short novel. Not short story. Third, as the film credits clearly state, I did NOT write the screenplay. The truly demented director, my compatriot Mr. L.Q. Jones--Quincy's mother--wrote it after I bowed out, having worked myself so hard for the three years preceding that I just splattered flat on my face from exhaustion. I did, however, write the first 15 minutes of the script as filmed.
Now, Ms. Rose . . . having met Dorothy Parker when she was still wry and lively, having exchanged bon mots with Gore Vidal, Norman Lear, Robin Williams, Damon Knight, Neil Gaiman and a host of articulate, witty, mordant and incisive men and women who could slice you into luncheon meat with their jabberwocky and jive, I MUST get you to perceive that I have been running in a very low, energy-conserving first gear when posting to you. Kid, you don't KNOW what a portmanteau of scathing remarkage can be draped bloodily over your eviscerated young carcass were I actually rankled by you. But you remind me of the daughter I never had. Or wanted.
As the great sadly-now-departed bon vivant, raconteur and aphorist William Rotsler once said of me, "When you're the fastest gun in town, you don't pull against plowboys."
So welcome to Tombstone, li'l lady. Hang out, listen . . . and learn. (Oh, did I err? Is it The Backstreet Boys you sigh for?
Or The Beastie Boys? Or The Bumphuque Boys? It's so hard keeping each new week's no-talents straight when you're a feeble geezer.)
BERMAN: You dolt. It's "lie" down, not "I'm gonna LAY DOWN."
And if anyone is wondering why I'm so much on my muscle these days, well, shit, gang, it's this muddlefuggin' lawsuit. Even with the pieces in PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY and PAGES and VARIETY and USA TODAY, the spigot for the KICK Internet Piracy fund has been tightly turned off . . . AND . . .
THAT WAS NOT, repeat, NOT A POORMOUTH TO GET ANY OF YOU (including, and especially you, Heather) TO SEND ANY MORE DOUGH.
YOU HAVE ALL DONE AMAZINGLY FOR US, AND I WAS MERELY TRYING TO EXPLAIN MY CRANKINESS. DO not, do NOT INTERPRET MY BITCHINESS OTHERWISE.
I spoke briefly to Kate Wilhelm today. From her tone of voice, I guess she's holding up. Damon did a lot of fine work. But his greatest legacy is Kate, and HER magnificent work. If you would honor Damon, read his HELL'S PAVEMENT; then read Kate's astonishing ouevre.
It's been a coupla shit days. I'm gonna go lay down off of the bed.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Lurk: OK, I'll bite-- what is the big difference between "pedophilia" and "fondling a young child"? Please enlighten.
In a very real sense, we do "take orders" from our genes. Not really the same as taking orders from Himmler, though. Gotta watch those analogies.
Lynn: While I agree that abusers do not abuse out of love, sadly, quite often the child does love the abuser and thinks the abuser loves him. Often, pedophiles prey on children who do not have male figures in their life; for instance, NPR recently described a priest who abused a boy from 11 to 14. The boy had no father, and the priest told him, "this is normal, this is what fathers and sons do together." The kid believed him. He didn't know any better. It's horrible.
By the way, the abuse was discovered by a nun who found the boy sleeping naked in the priest's bed-- in a rehab clinic for abuser priests, I might add. I'm sure it was just fondling going on, not pedophilia. Mmm hmmm.
Bermanator
Bermanator
>I mean if you think about it, isn't American Beauty technically kiddie porn? Remember, the young girls in that film were seventeen <
Frank, now we're back at the hoary old question of whether having sex with a seventeen-year old, who is a physical adult capable of procreation, is child molestation.
The law had to draw a line somewhere. But I think the penalties are far more severe for seducing pre-adolescents than senior class cheerleaders.
Lurk
I agree that pedophilia and power are linked. But I think this fondling issue in the church is something else, something more juvenile. I think most of the accused priests would genuinely be sickened at the idea of actual sex with children, especially pre-adolescent ones, unlike sex offender pedophiles. I doubt most of them are regular viewers of child porn. The accounts I've read about all involve furtive groping, kind of like 10-year olds playing doctor. A sexuality unformed, still in its child stage.
Faisal,
Don't forget Graham was also the one who described heaven as "1500 miles long and 1500 miles wide and 1500 miles high, and (we'll) drive down streets paved in jewels in solid-gold Cadillacs." One of many examples of how goddamn dumb people, supporting him, Falwell, Swaggert, Robertson, et al; talking awesome and infinite one moment and making it materialistic and finite the next.
At least Rev. Ike ("If you're willing to wait to get your pie-in-the-sky bye-and-bye, then the Reverend Ike is not your man!") was upfront about it.
As Alan Rickman said in "Dogma":
"Metatron acts as the voice of God. Any documented occasion when some yahoo claims to have spoken with God, they're speaking to me. Or they're speaking to themselves."
I think there's a difference between pedophilia and the kind of abuse that is being called into the light within the church. The accused priests are generally accused of "fondling," which is a very different type of sexual activity than actual sex with children.
It's all an eerie, disgusting mess, and I'm sure we'll end up blaming it on something else besides ourselves. The "I was just taking orders" routine has become quite popular since Nuremburg; you're taking orders from Himmler, or your genes, or the subconscious your parents screwed up, etc...
NPR is a genuine class act. I'm grateful for their very existence. (That reminds me, I need to renew).
L.
My fiance thanks you all for being the target of this rants and sparing her the hour of my bitching. :)
(she says it'd be more than an hour, but hey...)
NPR's All Things Considered had a very nice eulogy for Damon Knight this afternoon. Surprised since Robert Urich only rated a few words, Knight rated a whole 3 1/2 minutes with sound bites.
"IT'S A COOK BOOK!!!!!!"
Okay, maybe not all pedophiles dig kiddie porn, but all kiddie porn is consumed by pedophiles.
But, you ask a pedophile what he likes best about the pictures he views and a common answer is "The look of innocence on his face" or "The helpless look in his eyes."
Yep, its all about power. Helpless adults resorting to the domination of the weak and innocent.
"Actually, most pediphiles(sic) reject pornography anyway. They consider it degrading to their sick rationalization of the so called, "innocense(sic)" of their actions. Pediphiles(sic) actually think they are loving the child, not hurting them. Sick to be sure, but that's how they view it. They have something missing in the brain. "
Really, Frank. How many pedophiles have you polled or talked to come to this estimation? And how many sexual abuse victims have you talked to that felt *loved*? Pedophilia has nothing to do with *love* and everything to do with *power* and exerting that power over a helpless victim. If I were you, I'd quit reading all that NAMBLA propaganda and do some real research into the subject. Victims of pedophilia don't descend into Dissociative Identity Disorder and block huge chunks of their memory because they felt *loved*. That's like saying that rapists do it for the sex.
The thought that you actually believe their bilge sickens me.
L.
Rich -
If it's a Kevin Smith DVD, I'm on the preorder list. :)
- Jay
Rich -
If it's a Kevin Smith DVD, I'm on the preorder list. :)
- Jay
This "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" line is getting old fast. Online speech, no matter how icky, doesn't instigate the same power that shouting fire would do. That's the line the Religious Right likes to use when they try to censor things like Marilyn Manson. Because some kids take Manson's lyrics to heart, that means that Manson is responsible for some one else's personal responsibility. This does not fly. Speech, even horrible speech is protected by the First Amendment, period.
The virtual kiddie porn stuff is protected because one has to actually degrade a living child before that offense is considered legitimate. It may degrade someones good taste, but speech isn't democratic when it just holds your hand.
Actually, most pediphiles reject pornography anyway. They consider it degrading to their sick rationalization of the so called, "innocense" of their actions. Pediphiles actually think they are loving the child, not hurting them. Sick to be sure, but that's how they view it. They have something missing in the brain.
I mean if you think about it, isn't American Beauty technically kiddie porn? Remember, the young girls in that film were seventeen at the time they had their scenes filmed. How about Maplethorpe? Some naked kid on a bear skin rug that is used in a cute post card? See, there can be a slippery slope if we let this kind of idiotic legislation go through--not to talk about the civil liberty fallout.
-----------------------
Zoe, you do have a head on your shoulders, I will give you that. It is not everyone who can step up to the plate and take on Harlan like that. You will regret it, but that's for another day. Hehe.
Faisal: If you give me a few days, I will pass on my "plethora of scientific information" to you. My best friend is both gay and a scientist, but it sometimes takes me a while to hear back from him. So, I'll get back to you b/c I don't want to just spout off some crap off the top of my head.
Jim: Of course you're right-- if the kiddie porn is completely fabricated and there are no real children involved at all, then it's no one's business. But if real kids are just being cut and pasted into sexual positions, what do you think of that? That can't be legal, can it? Bottom line is that I don't know enough about that issue to really say more than that.
Bermanator
Berman,
There is a Gay gene? I think the jury is still out on that one. In 1999, a paper published in the journal Science reported that there was little correlations of genetic markers with male homosexuals. I unfortunately never read the paper though sexual development was one of my favourite topics. There have been other papers looking at brain physiology differences with homosexuals but I don't know whether any of them referred to the original 1993 study which inferred that people born with these markers would have a higher chance of becoming homosexual.
From memories from my lectures, it was thought that the markers indicated a region on the X chromosome that produced less than average Tryptophan. This reportedly resulted in Billy Graham statement that society should inject homosexuals with said Amino Acid. Probably more humane than the tried and tested technique of medical institutions, shock therapy and cold baths.
if you want, I can dig up my old notes and papers and have a look at the more recent publications on BIDS.
This then leads to the question of whether homosexuality is a genetic choice or is it a through how an individual has developed in society? Schizophrenia seems to have a genetic link and various trials have taken place showing violence might be due to a genetic factor. Then the big question of all - Is it ethical to carry out research on sexual behaviour and what could be the possible application of this research.
Billy Graham Sexual Re-Orientation Clinics anyone?
God... I can imagine William Burrough's having a lot of fun with that.
"Paging Dr Benway..."
FAQ
Jon, I was making a specious comment on the fact that 98% of the time (roughly), Thomas votes the same as Scalia. That Thomas actually raises legal issues in his opinion -- rather than just coming out and SAYING he gets off on porn (especially the "Long Dong Silver" ouevre), so what the heck are we doing trying to outlaw even the most reprehensible examples -- is to be expected.
The rest of it, I take your word on.
Helz: There are a couple of excellent U.S. legal sites which, alas, I didn't bookmark -- but they both came up close to the top of a google search for supreme court justice appointments, and one also contained the official briefs for decisions. Thomas did say he was in favour of a more focused bill on the same issue.
Re: Forest Whitaker: Well, he was in Battlefield: Earth, but I think his work in Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai made up for that.
Re: Camera Angles and Movement: Someone mentioned the pointless camerawork in Husbands and Wives. Well, that film did make me feel ill when I was in the theatre. Only time that happened due to camera movement, too. The extraordinary tilted camera used throughout Battlefield: Earth did cause me to start giggling after about 40 minutes, though.
A Brief Moment of Hockey: I suppose if anyone's interested in catching NHL playoff hockey based on the excitement of Olympic hockey, the Vancouver/Detroit series might be the best bet.
Jon
I thought all of you might like to see the assignment that sent Zoe Rose to this forum. She has done very well for herself in responding to what she has had to respond to, so I won't add a word to any of that. I do want you to know that she is stuck with having to take this course on the web and can't even see her instructor face to face because I happen to be on leave and because the University won't fund teaching this course as often as Students would like to take it. It also won't let me give you all access to the syllabus for the course since they charge students to take the course. The assignment I can share. It speaks to what I'm trying to get studetns to understand about the film and the writer.
Harlan Ellison is another of the "new wave" writers of the sixties and seventies and the most important editor/critic of science fiction in the second half of this century. His short stories set new standards for craftsmanship and wit, and in editing two collections of short stories written by his peers, Dangerous Visions and Dangerous Visions Again, he freed science fiction writers to experiment with the themes and techniques that have produced the new science fiction. He wrote the script, based on his own short story, for this film. Visit Ellison's Webderland Forum and make a comment or ask a question about A Boy and His Dog. Send me a note indicating that you made this post and letting me know if you got any responses. Then take the A Boy and His Dog quiz. Finally, join this "virtual" discussion. Read the commentaries listed under this heading and then write your own. You can agree or disagree with the comments of your virtual classmates. If more than one of you is taking this course at any time, you can also respond to each other.
Cindy,
Yeah, All in the Family was inspired by a Brit series called Till Death Do Us Part. Have you ever seen the Beatles' Hard Days Night? The geezer who played Paul's uncle was the sitcom's star (though I may be confusing that with Steptoe and Son, its counterpart known here as Sanford & Son).
The 'poisoned cat' Fawlty Towers episode: yeah, I have it. If it's one thing customers could count on in that place it's watching their plate vanish whenever they're about to put a fork in the food; then when they get it back and they think they can finally eat it disappears again. Just ask the food inspector in that episode.
You know, I should really try to combine all my responses into ONE post, instead of doing this. *sigh* Anyhoo...
ZOE: I'm pretty sure that scene was in the train, but I could be wrong. Of course, if I really wanted to know for sure, I'd have to watch the damned movie again. You understand if I pass, don't you?
On to a lighter topic:
I love FAWLTY TOWERS, too. Actually, I have a big crush on Britcoms in general. FAWLTY TOWERS, MONTY PYTHON, BLACKADDER, FATHER TED, ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS...wonderful, the whole lot of 'em. And let's not forget British drama, either: CRACKER, PRIME SUSPECT, and the single greatest miniseries in the history of television, THE SINGING DETECTIVE.
Why are the Brits so damned good at creating memorable TV?
Though I understand the concerns voiced by many, I have to reiterate: Speech conducted in the privacy of your home is fully protected by the Constitution. No matter how distasteful, no matter how perverted, if it is not directly harming anyone, then it is a fundamental right. Now, if someone is downloading photos of pedophilic acts, then you can certainly argue that is not free speech, but is participation in a criminal act (the molestation of children). And I'd agree.
If someone, however, is creating and viewing images of acts that have never occurred in reality, then it's none of the government's business. Yes, it's disgusting; yes, it's a red flag; yes, individuals can and should do whatever they can to decry such expressions.
But the notion of the Feds monitoring people's homes for ANYTHING that might have the taint of pedophilia...that's just frightening. I wouldn't want to live in such a country. Would you?
ROB,
The one you mentioned is one of the greatest episodes, right up there with the moose and the one with the guest that Basil thought died of eating bad kippers. Another prize was the one in which the deaf lady keeps giving Basil hell and he holds up ( can't remember if it's the hearing aid or what) something and says,"Is this a piece of your BRAIN?"
LOL!
I envy your collection.
Those English are nearly peerless when it comes to wit. I saw a documentary not long ago that established the fact that All In The Family was based on a British comedy.
Did you ever watch The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin? I would laugh so hard that I'd get cramps. To The Mannor Born was another one. But, Fawlty Towers was my favorite.
You have excellent taste too senior.
Cindy
Jon, thanks for the Supreme Court voting breakdown. What's really interesting here is that Justice Clarence Thomas actually voted against his mentor/massah, Antonin "I wanna be Chief Justice so I made sure Bush won the election" Scalia...
Must have been Thomas' "first-hand" experience with pornography that tipped the scales...
I think that different perverts go to church for different reasons. No doubt some do it for the easy accessibility to children-- the Biblical metaphor of the congregation as a flock of sheep is accurate. So many Christians take things at face value when they are offered under the banner of Christ. I am always put on guard by any business owner or politician who makes a big show of his belief in THE LORD. Likewise Christian signs and symbols are a HUGE red flag to me whether on bumper stickers, websites or advertisements. I'm a Christian as most of y'all know but I am highly suspicious of those who wave the flag with too much verve.
Catholics don't have the market cornered on pedophiles either. In Austin last year they busted a babtist ( that's Texas for Baptist) "youth minister". If you ask me, Youth Minister is also a suspicious position, . I have kids, some are or have been teenagers. Who would WANT to hang around with them for a LIVING unless there was some sort of underlying masochistic tendencies or worse.
Cindy
A DVD will be released on May 14th with Kevin Smith talking with Stan Lee. Called "Stan Lee's Mutants, Monsters & Marvels", it's apparently chalk full of information. You can read about it at DVDReview.com. Amazon has a listing, but not a lot of info.
And a no prize to the first person that gets the DVD. 'Nuff said.
Cindy,
I have a batch of FAWLTY TOWERS taped and I'm utterly stoked to have every one of 'em (and, yeah, you can't help but love Manuel - with his crappy English and chimp-like movements); but the one episode that really sent me into arrhythmic paroxysms, particularly the first time I saws it, was when the dude was sneaking his girlfriend into his hotel room against rules and Basil was determined to catch him with the evidence. Every time he took a measure - putting his ear to the wall or accidentally groping a blonde's breast (he'd reached around to turn on a light switch) - either his wife or a psychiatrist guest with his spouse would walk by. One scene is brilliantly cut and timed when he goes outside with Manuel (don't want to give it a way in case Todd hasn't seen it yet), and it is the scene that really endeared me to this episode. You may recall the sequence I'm talking about. Damn hilarious.
You have excellent taste, ma'am.
Your friendly neighborhood nit-picker here. Rick, I had no idea what your little skit was about until I tried to look up the names in IMDB. Forest has only one 'r' in his name, and Mr. Rea is sans 'H'. Having figured this out, now I get it... ::duh::
L.
Jim- I remember that! Only, I thought it was the scene with the pool, and all the blood spattered around on the patio and mixed in the water. The team put together to find the alien appears on the scene, and everyone's horrified except Whitaker, who then says his line. When I saw it, it was in theater, and you're right... at LEAST two minutes.
--Zoe Rose
RICK: Excellent work on the variable # of posts option. Also, I like your Forest Whitaker sketch. For some reason, it reminds me of his work in another movie, where he delivers what may be the unintentionally funny line of dialogue EVER. In 1995's SPECIES, a government-created alien/human hybrid (played by the delectable Natasha Henstridge) has escaped, and a crew of bounty hunters and federal agents are hired to find her. Whitaker plays a psychic/empath member of the crew with, how shall we say, an incredible talent for stating the obvious.
So Henstridge is sleeping on a train, when she suddenly metamorphoses from her human form into this H.R. Gigeresque monstrosity, creating a hideous amount of gore, lymph, and discarded alien chrysalis in her compartment as a result. I mean, we're talking major disgusting here--the whole thing looks like an explosion in a lasagna factory. Later, after Henstridge has left, Whitaker walks in, sees this gut-wrenching display all over the walls, the window, the bunks, etc., and portentously delivers this stunning insight:
"Something very bad happened in here."
I'm telling ya, it took at LEAST two minutes for the laughter in that theatre to die down.
Lurk: There *is* a "gay gene." You can scoff at that and place it alongside "prefers Fords to Chevies" but there's a plethora of scientific evidence that homosexuality has a genetic component. Maybe genes also cause bad taste, hence the Ford preference, but I hardly think I need to point out that homosexuality is an identity issue, not a preference issue.
However, I do agree with you about pedophiles in the Church. I think the Church attracts people who wish to repress their taboo sexual urges by immersing themselves in a celibate environment. Probably some of them also choose the Church because it gives them a lot of authority and access to children. It's an unhealthy environment of enabling and trangressing that has gotten pretty out of control. I'm glad it's out in the open now.
Maybe there is a pedophilia gene. I wouldn't write that off flippantly; it's certainly possible. We haven't really figured out the genome yet. In that case, a whole array of new treatment methods would open up for it. But, since homosexuality requires no treatment, acknowledging it as part of a person's identity is quite healthful.
Bermanator
Post script: The Church is also the most sex-free environment I can imagine. Another factor to take into consideration.
L.
Lurk~ How about the thought that pedophiles enter the Church in the hopes that the discipline of the life style will give them the strength NOT to indulge? How about the thought that these monsters don't choose the Church because of the ready availability of children, or the unwillingness of the Church to make such scandals public, but because they imagine that living closer to their source of morality will give them strength to overcome their temptations? With pedophiles that choose occupations specifically to be close to children (bus drivers, school teachers, day care providers), it is logical that they have made the decision to indulge their sickness. I would think that the lifestyle of a priest would be counter to such indulgences.
Just my two cents,
L.
I don't really want to wander down the alleys of this topic anymore either. How about this one: is there any connection between the beatific embrace of the sublime and the need to fondle children? Do the fairy-tale, fantasy elements of the Church attract individuals whose own sexuality is regressed or infantile?
Where's Freud when you need him? Oh yeah, he's a source of cheap laughs now. Sure glad that all the answers are to be found on the genome...can't wait for the "pedophile gene" to be announced, probably right next to the "gay gene" or maybe the "prefers Chevies to Fords" gene.
Much to my chagrin as I really didn't want to contribute to this current discussion, I find I must respond to one of Jay's comments:
"Excusing it by saying we accept graphic splatter doesn't work. In films we don't pop the heads off children. When children die in film, its done with much more care and dignity than films with heavy body counts. Sex and death between adults is handled much differently than sex and death of or between children."
I don't buy that a bit. I don't know about the sex thing since I can't recall too many films (independent or hollywood) that are about sex between children, but the violence done to kids may not be given care and dignity.
I offer as an example the scene in "Usual Suspects" where Spacey recounts the Soze story of Soze killing his own family to set an example to the other mob. In the scene, one of the mob guys slits a little boy's throat. No, the camera doesn't linger on it, but the viewer sees it and it's quite disconcerting. From the audio commentary of the DVD, Singer mentions that he thought that scene would have a hard time making it past the MPAA. Singer says the MPAA didn't mention it. I am inferring from those statements that Singer (and, McQuarrie, also) didn't really give a damn about the kid and the effect that kid's death would have other than showing what Soze was up against and showing what Soze was capable of doing. No care and dignity there.
You're giving way too much credit to filmmakers, Jay.
A large number of original child porn is being created outside the United States where it is easy and cheap to find subject matter. Many sites originate in Russia and, while I do not have hard statistics on the $$$, from what I understand parents put their kids in front of a camera for what is, to us, breakfast at Micky-Ds. Crack mommies and prostitutes need to feed the same babies they're selling.
So, once its done and on the web, its copied and distributed to several other sites, some domestic, and filtered down to the hard drives of our most sexually-challenged citizens. Nearly impossible to track material is cheap to produce by the gigabyte within 24 hours. I use Photoshop to airbrush portraits of vain old women. I require an original to scan, so you STILL need to photograph a kid. Then you need to scan and alter it. I've been using Photoshop for years and it takes me a while. Of course if you don't what photorealistic, you can just get an artist. I charge $75 an hour, too. In Russia, I'm sure it's far less expensive to hire a shemp with a laptop, but it would take a day for one picture, which won't fill the coffers quick enough.
Excusing it by saying we accept graphic splatter doesn't work. In films we don't pop the heads off children. When children die in film, its done with much more care and dignity than films with heavy body counts. Sex and death between adults is handled much differently than sex and death of or between children.
Many of the pictures I seized where of children 2-9 altered so they look like splayed, nude angels or cherubs. These bare no resemblance to classic paintings except in the lack of clothing.
Romeo & Juliet depicts a romance, necking, but no illicit sex. If we compare this, most of the WB and UPN line up would be deemed illegal.
As for keeping my mind open to "other considerations" in the discussion of child porn, I only have two. The Protection of Children FIRST, and the Protection of the First Amendment SECOND. I leave it to the courts of the land to balance my bias.
Heather,
You wrote:
Michael: You're half jewish? Top or bottom half?
A valid question where I'm from and I'm fascinated to see you ask it. Do you have ranchers in your family? Top refers to sire and bottom to dam. Was that what you meant?
Cindy
Beautiful spot, Rick. Beeea-YOU-tiful!
Bill
Hey Jon,
Thank you for the voting breakdown. Pretty interesting isn't it?
Cindy
Webderland now has a "roll your own" number of comments display. Change the number and re-bookmark the result to consitently get the desired number of comments at once.
Recommended normal maximum value is 50 (to spare my webserver costs, this board gets about 2500 hits a day) - I did allow a maxmimum display of 100 messages for those of you catching up.
Forest Whitaker hosting The Twilight Zone? Here's my idea for a promo spot:
(fade into FOREST WHITAKER standing in front of a black blackdrop with a lightly-scattered starfield, wearing a tasteful suit)
FOREST: Hello, I'm Forest Whitaker. Starting next month on UPN, I'll be taking you to a new dimension. A dimension not of sight...
(commotion heard in the background, voice in background "Where is he!")
FOREST: not of sound...
(STEPHEN REA lurches onto the set, panting)
STEPHEN: There you are! You bastard!
FOREST (puzzled): I'm sorry?
STEPHEN: SHE HAD A PENIS, you bastard!
FOREST: Wha...?
STEPHEN (grabbing Forest by his coat lapels): All that time together and you coulnd't be bothered to mention it? A PENIS?
FOREST: Look, Steve, that was just a mov...
STEPHEN (continuing): I mean, what, you couldn't work it into the bloody conversation? "Hey, is that a picture of your girlfriend?" "Why yes, Steve, and did I mention SHE HAS A PENIS?!?!?" .. "Boy, that's a nice looking chick, I'd fancy a go at her I think" "Well if you do, don't worry about it being that time of the month because SHE HAS A PENIS!" .. "Wow, nice looking girl there!" "Yes, and she also has quite a nice looking PENIS!"
FOREST: Can someone....?
STEPHEN: You sod! I kipped on my own shirt! I ought to...
(while this is occuring stagehands come on screen and pull Stephen off Forest)
FOREST (recomposed): A dimension not of sight, not of sound...
STEPHEN (just after being dragged off screen, fading): I'll give you a dimension, Forest! A dimension of PENIS!
FOREST (only slightly pausing): ...but a dimension of mind. And yes, for one man...
STEPHEN (muffled, fading): This isn't over Forest! This isn't over!
FOREST: ...a dimension of penis. Next month on THE TWILIGHT ZONE.
(Forest fades out to leave starfield with show logo. End spot)
First word, to Harlan: Sorry about the "off of" business. Old habits are difficult to break. But, I shall search through my hard drive and seek out all recent documents with that particular error, and correct them.
Re the Supreme Court. I'm surprised that this particular court made a decent decision. It's always seemed to me that the one really concrete reason to ban kiddie porn was because its production required the abuse of children. If that's involved, then by all means, prosecute the abusers.
But when the material is created _without_ that kind of abuse-- by drawing, Photochopping, Poser graphics, whatever-- then the harm becomes a lot _less_ concrete. That's when people start complaining about the thoughts of others-- the thoughs of the people who make the stuff, the people who look at it, etc. And that's just not something I feel governments should have a role in regulating.
I'm not worried about the difficulty in telling Photoshopped images from the real thing. For one thing, most Photoshopped porn isn't very well done, and it's pretty easy to see the fakery. For another, the "real thing" isn't prosecuted solely on the basis of photographic evidence-- it's prosecuted on the basis of eyewitness testimony and forensic evidence.
Others have brought up the observation that suc works as _Lolita_ and _Romeo and Juliet_ could be prosecuted under older laws. I'd also like to mention that Chris Morris' "Brass Eye Special" on the pedophilia hysteria in Britain, titled "Paedogeddon," uses a LOT of concocted fake-kiddie-porn imagery. It is also one of the best pieces of modern satire I've ever seen. Try to find it on the Web if you can, and download it.
Jon Stover - Forgot to reply to your post. Interestingly enough, I think you hit on an old version of the Sci-Fi course page. I'll check out that url you posted. Now, the Sci-Fi course is at:
http://www.d.umn.edu/ce/ini/tbacig/sfini/index.html
Sadly, you have to have a school-given username and password to see any of the assignments/quizzes, but the discussion forum is open to anyone with username 'guest' and password 'tempass'.
Anyway, the newer one has the following blurb on the assignment page for Boy and His Dog:
Harlan Ellison is another of the "new wave" writers of the sixties and seventies and the most important editor/critic of science fiction in the second half of this century. His short stories set new standards for craftsmanship and wit, and in editing two collections of short stories written by his peers, Dangerous Visions and Dangerous Visions Again, he freed science fiction writers to experiment with the themes and techniques that have produced the new science fiction. He wrote the script, based on his own short story, for this film. ***Visit Ellison's Webderland Forum and make a comment or ask a question about A Boy and His Dog. Send me a note indicating that you made this post and letting me know if you got any responses. ***
--Zoe Rose
Lurk: "And I can't think that the "real thing" would be cheaper or easier to create. Just the opposite." Au contrare – reality is always easier. I, with my limited ability and tools could produce "real" child porn, were I so inclined. I have neither the time, talent or skills necessary to fake something with digital compositing/animation tools. That takes a level of dedication to the final product not many are capable of sustaining.
But I am behind you one hundred percent saying even a single child saved is a major "win".
Lurk, you also said: "With child porn, if we understand that it's faked, we may not approve of it, but we don't have much ground to make it illegal."
By allowing simulated images to exist legally it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to identify the so-called "law-abiding" images. Pixel-level control is astonishingly powerful.
And now we can add another level to the legal confusion – how much manipulation of an image will make it legal? If we change the child's eye-color? Skin color? If we substitue something for the popsicle the child is eating? If we convert the footage to a "Waking Life"-style animation? If we destroy the original footage – is the derivative, clearly simulated, animation legal? How could we tell if it's converted or simply the product of an active (albeit twisted) imagination?
Muddy waters are worse, now, and I can't see this as a win for anyone.
Alex Berman - This page isn't being used as a text in the course. Just as a way of getting in touch with Ellison-fans.
Jim Hess - While I agree with your a and b, your c is wrong - nobody takes anything off this webpage, period. We merely have to look around and post on it. I'd tend towards the "we like this page" attitude, rather than the "we want to use someone else's work to not have to do our own" attitude. That's just me though.
Bill - Wow. :) An invitation? NOW I feel special.
Frank Church - Working on it! I'm coming back here every day to see what you're all talking about, aren't I? And to be bitch-slapped around by HE, which is more amusing than I can say.
Speaking of which...
We meet again, Harlan. Rather - my brain hurts again from your last posting. I DIDN'T care for your manner, no. Now I realize that it's just damned funny. I'm the first to admit it: I'm still looking up quite a few words from your sweet little note to me. You'll be happy (or disappointed) to know that I'm insulted by only three things:
1) You imply that I like N'Sync (shoot me in the head first), and that I go to chatrooms named after them (hack off my fingers next).
2) That I give a flying fucknut what cool is (I'm a friggin' English major... cool? I think not). And finally,
3) The idea that your rantings - while wordily humorous even to I that am oh-so-bruised by them - would have the power to crush this so-called blossom, tender blossom, even, of the latest scum stuck in your back teeth. Allow me to be phoenetic: Puh-lease.
I know you insulted me far worse than these three, but I can't seriously bring myself to feel badly by them. So nicely worded, so padded in sarcasm and wit - who would have thought that a podunk Duluthian would get not one, but two adoring, responsive, and endearing messages from God-like you? *sniff* I'm touched.
In short- Me- Tender? No. Blossom-like? Nope. Getting a kick out of all this? Hell, yes. I really do hope to get another romantic love letter from you again, complete with mentions of flowers and comments of how smart I am and all that nectar-sweet cow manure. No really, I am. You crack me up!
Justin- You're looking for a girlfriend?
--Zoe Rose
>This picture, which looks real, is OK; but this picture, which looks real, is not.)<
Xanadu, an interesting observation, and really the nut of the argument. It seems to me that the images themselves are not what is in question here...it's do they portray an illegal act taking place? Are they evidence of lawbreaking, and is your purchase/viewing of such making you an accomplice in that lawbreaking?
It's generally illegal to shoot people dead. But images of people getting shot dead are considered acceptable in our movies. We understand that it's faked. We may not approve of such imagery, but we don't outlaw it like we do the actual act.
With child porn, if we understand that it's faked, we may not approve of it, but we don't have much ground to make it illegal. It's an unpleasant concept, to be sure, but it's still miles of improvement over actually using children.
>problem of adults who desire children is to provide them with media that SIMULATES <
No, that problem, which is large, insidious, and which no-one is in a great hurry to find the real reasons for, is not going to be solved by this.
Hell, nothing will be SOLVED. But if the legal use of Photoshop means just one kid is spared, it's worth it to me. And I can't think that the "real thing" would be cheaper or easier to create. Just the opposite.
The point about discerning is it live or is it Memorex is a good one. I suppose we could hope that as technology becomes more available and easier to use, pornographers will take the easier road and use it. They already are, in many cases, usually with celebrity images, which of course brings up a whole other legal issue. Leonard Nimoy once sued a British beermaker for using his image in their ads (Spock's ears perked up after a cold one). Imagine what he'd be suing for if something else perked up, on your computer screen...
With the all the recent postings about Panic Room, thought I'd pass this news along from the TV Guide site:
Forest Whitaker has signed on to host UPN's Twilight Zone update.
Gunther: Whoever pointed out the "fact" that Romeo and Juliet would have been illegal was wrong, since, as I recall, R&J has no simulated sex acts. (But, my memory is faulty of late and I could be wrong - I just don't have time to read R&J this morning - give me the weekend and I'll be definitive.)
Two: As Lurk argued so passionately last time - we already give "them" a panalopy of choices - adding another level, "simulated but not real" is just muddying the waters even further, not helping in the slightest. I'm afraid the poor devils confused by what's right and wrong already will have a far worse time of it now. (This picture, which looks real, is OK; but this picture, which looks real, is not.)
Three: Authorities are going to have a devil of a time proving whether new pictures are simulated (old ones can be cataloged, indexed and identified). Then we raise the inevitable argument down the road, from the defense lawyer, that his client was told all the images he got over the internet were simulated, and since he is not a photoshop expert, he cannot be held liable for not checking them...
Lastly - what is our society's problem with saying - there are some behaviours that are not acceptable, under any circumstances, for any reason? Would it be acceptable to create the game "Kike Killer", in which you get to play the hero, a simulated Nazi variously gunning down, or gassing, or performing experiments on simulated jews and slavs? Or "Wop Whapper", or "Mick Masher", or "Nigger Nailer" - as long as the "speech" was safely simulated? When can we say enough - THIS IS WRONG - don't do it or face punishments. (Kind, humane punishments - I am not in charge)
Still saddened.
It's funny you guys mentioning Fawlty Towers. I had bought the complete Fawlty Towers DVD Set last month (only 12 episodes! Amazing how so few episodes can last so long) and just started watching it last night.....and then boom, the Webderland Gang starts Fawlty-chattin'. Coincidence, thy name is Webderland.
Joseph, I smell something all right! I smell the disappointment of another season in Chicago with two teams from the Third City (sorry, but I put L.A. second) once again getting excited over some home runs and strikeouts and then setting up the ole Barcalounger in preparation for watching the Yankees win World Series #27. And watch out for The Deathbirds! We start slow, but we wipe up the competition with our bloodied mops! Huzzah!
-TODD
I must take issue with Barney’s characterization of Damon Knight’s sf criticism as “savage without redemption.” My impression of Knight as a critic is that he often found books that delighted him and he was very skillful at conveying that delight to the readers of his reviews and essays. For evidence, see his collection IN SEARCH OF WONDER. The chapter devoted to Kuttner & Moore is titled “Genius to Order.” On Sturgeon: “He writes about people first and other marvels second.” On Leiber’s CONJURE WIFE: “…easily the most frightening and (necessarily) the most convincing of all modern horror stories.” I could pull similar kinds of quotes from his comments on the works of Asimov, Heinlein, Capek, and lots of others. Anyone even slightly interested should give the book a try; it’s a good read. I think the 3rd edition is still available from Advent. Your local library should have at least the 2nd edition.
Perhaps I am not understanding this issue completely. I'm hoping one of you might be able to explaint this to me so that I'm not spouting off ignorance. The Supreme Court ruled that it's not illegal to photomanipulate pictures of children to make them appear like they are committed sexual acts. Does this mean they are creating fake children who never existed, then making them look like they are having sex? Or are they taking pictures of real live kids and messing with them so they appear to be doing things they haven't done?
To me, it would make a big difference. However, I'm not sure how one would know, when one was looking at such a picture, whether or not it was a picture of a real kid. It all seems like hair-splitting to me.
Bermanator
Concerning the recent Supreme Court decision, while the matter is indeed a double-edged sword, it's been pointed out that ROMEO AND JULIET would have been illegal under the old legislation.
Which is stupid.
And speaking of disgusting photoshopped fantasies:
http://www.randomdudes.com/bush/bush.html
I realize I'm coming in extremely late here (number-of-posts wise, not time wise), but here's b&w movies I've enjoyed:
Kubrick's PATHS OF GLORY (which is one of his best films IMO)
Darren Aronofsky's PI
Andrei Tarkovsky's genius ANDREI RUBLYOW
And, of course, THE THIRD MAN and CITIZEN KANE
Cindy: The voting breakdown for the decision was 6-3, with Rehnquist writing the dissenting opinion and O'Connor and Scalia agreeing in part with that dissent. The make-up of the Supreme Court by appointment is:
For Striking Down:
Clarence Thomas: Bush (1991)
John Paul Stevens: Ford (1975)
Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Clinton (1993)
David Souter: Bush (1990)
Steven Breyer: Clinton (1994)
Anthony Kennedy: Reagan (1988)
Dissenting:
William Rehnquist: Reagan (1986)
Antonin Scalia: Reagan (1986)
Sandra Day O'Connor: Reagan (1981)
Cheers,
Jon
OH, RICK: HBO Signature is reshowing BAND OF BROTHERS on Tuesdays at 9pm EST. What a great show--consider me hooked, and a guaranteed customer for the eventual DVD release.
Yeah, Harlan, I *KNOW* I freakin' spelled "possession" wrong. And I should've written "an answer" in my last paragraph. (Did I also mention that I regularly forget to brush my dogs' teeth? Hey, since my flaws are being displayed here for all to see, why not go whole hog?)
Sincerely,
IGNATIUS B. TIMOROUS
HEATHER: Huh? Where do I come from? Uh, I wuz birthed in Carbondale, Pennsylvania, if that helps.
RE THE RECENT SUPREME COURT DECISION:
This is very tough. Part of me understands the Court's need to protect what are, essentially, works of the imagination. If some pervo is wacking off to computer-generated images that have no genesis in reality, the government has NO right to prosecute him/her for it. As a lawyer friend of mine puts it, "You're either down with the First Amendment, or you're not." Whether it's a poem, a story, or some Photoshop-cobbled grotesquery, the principle is the same: It's free speech, and it must be protected. End of discussion.
But there IS ample evidence that pedophiles eventually graduate from viewing images to acting on their fantasies. Pedophilia is not normal sexuality; it is a compulsion of the highest order, and comparisons to regular sexual activities are only true up to a certain point. You can argue that Playboy, Penthouse, and the Spice Channel act as healthy valves for sexual tension. I doubt you can say the same for child pornography.
Also, this decision will make possesion of "real" child porn well-nigh impossible to prosecute. Without knowledge of their origin, it's impossible to distinguish virtual kiddie porn from the real thing. If police discover pedophilic images on a hard drive during a legal search, and the owner claims that they are purely computer-generated, what can the cops do? The Supremes may have guaranteed that child porn will become untouchable, and I don't think ANYONE here agrees that's a good thing.
I wish I had a answer to this quandary, folks. But I don't. The 21st Century is shaping up to be a very scary time.
CHARLIE!
I'm with you on this one. Fawlty Towers was my favorite show when it first came out. Remember Manuel and the Moose? "Hello-- I speeka engalish-- I larna eet frrrrrrom a buke!"
Jeeze and the lady with the dog!
Basil says, " What kind of dog is it?"
The lady says, " He's a little Shih-tzu."
Basil says, " I'm terribly sorry to hear that but.. ah what KIND of dog it?"
It's one of the best shows ever-ANYWHERE!
Cindy
I seriously question the assertion that this sort of material only "feeds" pedophiles. I would think it would provide an outlet for people who have the desires but don't want to hurt any actual kids. But maybe not. I guess you'd have to study the issue but, uh, let's just say that would be a difficult experiment to design.
I don't think you can legislate against objectionable material because of what someone might or might not do with it. We don't outlaw alcohol even though it can lead to deaths on the road.
I understand why everyone feels that "It's for the children" is a kind of talisman that obviates the need for any other considerations. I'm sure I'd be willing to break all sorts of laws to protect my own children. However, I think we need to avoid censorship of thought and protect freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is not absolute, of course. Is this the same issue as shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater? I don't believe it is but I can understand that point of view.
Todd,
Oh, just needling you a bit. How 'dem Yankees doing? Ready to come to the South Side? Maybe it'll help ya bridge that 15.5 point deficit in the Webderland League, eh?
Can you smell that? That's the smell of the Flash, my man!
Regards,
Joseph
Speaking of Poughkeepsie (isn't that where the idea factory is?), I was watching John Cleese the other day on America BBC (If you all have never seen Fawlty Towers, you MUST rent the videos-very humorous, you will be LOL or ROTFWL)in a special about himself. His response to people who ask him where he gets his ideas:(paraphrasing) I get my ideas from a man down in Devonshire, who gets them from a little old lady in White Cliffs. Problem is the little ol' lady recently died and the ideas stopped coming in.
Damn, was Peter's post on LOL really 3(!) years ago! Remember that one as if it were posted a couple months ago. Can someone please put the brakes on mother time. Thank you.
Heather,
Hi?! Hi? Hi. Hmmm, Hi. Hi??? Huh...hi...
I dun't un'rstand.
Forrester,
Thanks for the lead.
Susan, do you have a copy of 'Hornbook'? I'd like to pursue it in the summer.
Peter,
"I believe the origins of LOL can be traced back to the mickweepei tribe of southern makdonaland. Whereas Eskimos have 26 words for snow, the mickweepei have one word for everything. Lol? one of them asks. Lol, a second replies. Lol! the third responds defiantly while sharpening his pointed stick."
Where d’you get this stuff, Pete?
Everyone knows LOL is traced to the ancient traditions of the Wodabe, a nomadic, polygynous tribe on the Niger. Their ceremonies were of the passion of the flesh which was considered adulterous heresy in the West up to the 11th Century. Through explorers LOL found its way to the West in the myths of the Troubadour whose tropes of romantic love stirred hearts and shook the will of the Church. The Church had imposed its will for centuries to prevent romantic love; marriage was a contingent of property not passion (the spike of the Devil): marriage by arrangement was the law. But now the winds of heresy would shake the legal system; couples embraced each other in a boiling cauldron of passion and married for love not property...and they LOL in their triumph.
Common knowledge, Pete...common knowledge.
Lurk -
Respectfully, you mean to tell me the solution to the problem of adults who desire children is to provide them with media that SIMULATES child rape? Or purposefully offers them the pedophile's version of "Playboy" with illustrations and CGI toddlers?
Um. No. That's like saying we can cut down on the rape problem by giving sadists pictures of CGI rape victims.
So the kid in front of the camera is spared (or at least some until it is realized that some moms will rent their kids cheaper than a Photoshop whiz will charge to design new ones) but how about the kid who gets raped as a result of this feeding of their desires?
Sorry, but the idea of finding a happy medium here has no appeal. We protect the kids by protecting the real kids from active predators, not appeasing those who like the read yank mags or DL porn pages. It's not methadone. Its propaganda.
I agree this is a strong challenge to First Amendment rights and something I doubt the FOunding Fathers predicted in their visionary plans for America. The First Amendment has been amended. It has been eroded and curbed, so unless we're will to fight the reality and restore total freedom of speech, we must accept that it has to be curbed in the interest of public safety (as it has been countless times in the past). Do I like that idea? No. Does it give me pleasure to say it? Not at all. But it equals my displeasure of having a man I put away appeal his verdict because half the evidence that took him away from a household with potential victims was made up of "illustrated" child fucking. A man who is interested in seeing children in such an act will no limit his interest to what some scumbag draws up in Photoshop.
I'm not prepared to make that ideaological distinction.
(BTW, Lurk...that rant wasn't a focused attack on you, my friend. I respect your POV. I felt a rant coming on and there you have it.)
Joseph, leave it to you to jump on my usual 1-2 typos per note. I know the difference between hail and hale....my mind just refuses to feed my fingers....ahh, to hell with it.
The line from French Connection is used to simply catch the bad guy off guard....confuse him during a heated moment; give him no time to think. Popeye Doyle uses it to keep the perp from feeding him the typical perp excuses for being the wrong man at the wrong place. Intimidation by craziness.....it's scarier that way.
I got this from both Friedkin (probably spelled that wrong) and Hackman themselves on the commentary for both FCI and FCII, so there is no room for debate here (though someone will jump in and argue it anyway).
-TODD
-TODD
Heather~ Links covered. Heck after Barney contributed, links sealed behind a wall of bricks a lá Amontillado. Thanks for offering.
L.
Lynn: I asked you what links you were seeking. I still haven't gotten a reply on that.
Rick: Do 25. It works.
Alex Jay: What size is your computer? If it's a sample average, Rick, give him what he wants.
Rick: Two addies is fine. Continue.
Michael: You're half jewish? Top or bottom half?
Barney: I stand corrected. Though I read Ellison, who once mentioned how he liked "Rogue" because they let him write what and how he wanted. No editing.
Bill: Sorry. Don't know where Jim came from. 1001 pardons.
Little Washu: Have fun in Bermuda. Send postcards.
Rob: Hi.
To anyone/no one: I liked "Panic Room." It was a thrill. And I like Jodie Foster. I also liked "The Rookie." More than I expected. My, Dennis Quaid looks different.
Re: Passings...
I only read Damon Knight briefly. It moreso makes me feel the circle is getting smaller. Hope H.E. is doing okay--though I realize they may have no longer been as close. I read something else the other day, that put me in a similar frame of mind. Not sure what it was. hello, he
Condolences to Kate Wilhelm.
I am saddened by the passing of Mr. Urich. He was a fave on television, for many years. Rest easy, Monsieur.
Heather
Chris,
The main problem I see with this ruling is that it's going to be a bitch for the cops to prove that a picture is real and not manufactured. It leaves enormous gaps for real perps to fall through.
I'm glad I am not on the Supreme Court for this one. What is the political affiliation of the Justices who voted to protect virtual kiddie porn?
Any body know?
Cindy
Just to take the contrary position and actually agree with Frank (did I just say that?), I think the Supreme Court made the only just decision they could have made. In fact,my concern and frustration is that 3 judges didn't understand the basic principle of free speech at work here.
Would you make it illegal for Nabokov to write _Lolita_? I'm guessing not. What's the difference, then, if a painter or digital photographer does something similar in his or her medium?
Is it dangerous? Sure. Is it free speech? Definitely.
This finding doesn't make child pornography legal but only determines that the law, as it existed, was too broad in its scope. It could have been used to make any simulated sex act with a minor illegal, including the depiction of underaged characters in movies even when played by actors over the age of 18.
Also, I don't see how it's the government's business to determine how someone is allowed to arrange a bunch of pixels on their screen. If someone wants to create a fake image of a naked child or a child in a sex act, how can this be a crime when no actual child is involved? Should it be illegal to discuss or think about sex with minors?
Mr. Ellison said, "Quincy Jones was not the director of A BOY AND HIS DOG."
YES I KNOW. Have you that little faith in me? It was meant as a JOKE. I have the deluxe DVD of the film with a very interesting commentary by LQ. Would you care to autograph it for me sometime?
Todd,
Good hale!
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. OK, I'll admit my ignorance. What the heck is the reference "picking toes in Poughkeepsie" to? I know it's a line from "The French Connection," but for the life of me can't remember the context...
OK, who else here thought that the beginning of Heather's latest posting was leading us into a seamy Penthouse Letters tale of rain and hale and huddling for warmth at the boss's desk and suddenly, his hands were on my blouse, slowly unshackling my yearning breasts as the Canadian dollars dropped not only a few more points on the world market, but also dropped gently from his pocket as I slipped off his pants and released his, ahem, huskie......
Ummmmm, Heather, you must stop teasing me that way! Dammit.
-TODD
Harlan-
IMHO is an ETLA (Enhanced Three Letter Acronym).
As I'm sure you can all guess my thinking and approximate language regarding our superior court, I shall simply let it be known that THIS particular decision bothers me in a way even the signed, sealed and delivered election did not.
I respect the idea that the only time the Constitutional Protection of Free Speech is really needed is when the speech is abhorrant, unpopular or even dangerous. But I have some difficulty wrapping my mind around the concept that this behaviour is SPEECH.
I am saddened.
Rob-
"When I Was a Hired Gun," Pts I & II can be found in "Hornbook."
Hmm. I think I've done this before.
The sf course at Duluth has a webpage, at http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/tbacig/hmcl3220/summary.html
To quote from the webpage entry on A Boy and His Dog, "Ellison wrote the script for this film, based on his own short story. Prepare for our discussion by visiting the Ellison Webderland site and going to the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) file there and find an interesting question and answer, and email me a copy. Look at the A Boy And His Dog Discussion Guide as well."
Of course, there may be another sf course at Duluth doing A Boy and His Dog.
Jon
For anyone who can stomach it, I recommmed the movie "The Lost Son" (with very similar video cover as Lost Souls, unfortunately...the well of shamelessness in video marketing is indeed deep.)
It's a harrowing, realistic look at a child-sex ring in Europe, that puts a face on the bland statistics. I rented it because I rent anything with Nastassia Kinski, and I didn't know what I was in for.
RE RICK'S LIST: Loved it! JEOMK! (Er, maybe I shouldn't share that...)
If Harlan ever uses an emoticon, check the skies for rains of blood, and the maternity wards for two-headed babies.
The PetroCanada station I work at is filled with windows, ceiling to floor. You can see the sun, the wind, the rain. IMAX and surroundsound has nothing on this place.
Six-thirty this evening. The rain came down in a pour. I mean a pour. I'm talking a wall of water. Just to be sure I got my money's worth, it hailed briefly. I heard it on the roof. I'd finished changing to go home and knew I couldn't. I would get soaked. I would get soaked just crossing the street to the taunting bustop. I mean, it was RIGHT THERE, right across the street. But I'd be sloshing in my shoes and track pants and teeshirt by then. I'd ride home in the bus only to be dropped a twenty minute walk from home. I'd be soaked. Am I being clear here?
So I waited. I bought some food, sat in the tiny back office on a chair near my boss at his desk, and waited. I'm too old for this shit, you see. I've dealt with too much weather in the last little while--I would wait. So I folded open the book to where I'd stopped reading and sucked on a sandwich.
I'd wait.
Rob, my manager was working quietly at his desk. A fellow Petroperson was covering the front for him, while he fiddled over computer applications and paperwork. The phone rang. I half-listened to him speak.
He got off the phone, and said he was going to get some guy's bag of groceries--he'd left them in the bus kiosk. That's all I knew at the time. I thought some customer was calling him. I watched him get up, put on what looked like a leather coat, his head bare, wearing black slacks and black street shoes.
He didn't have to do it. That's what I thought later. He didn't HAVE to do it. But he did.
He went out the front door, his friend at the til chattering and laughing at him, and I slowly got up and watched him cross the street, carefully avoiding traffic and large piles of water--note, I didn't say puddles; I said PILES--go into the kiosk at the opposite corner, bend over and grab a bag of groceries in a plastic bag, and make his way back across the street.
He didn't have to do that. Are you with me?
When he got back inside, I found out that my coworker, a young guy named Leon, had forgotten his bag of groceries, in an effort to catch a bus home--his girlfriend had come to meet him; I think he just got distracted--but he'd called my boss to ask him to retrieve his bag of groceries in the rain.
He could have waited. He could have told the kid he'd watch the kiosk from the store til the kid arrived. But he didn't even take the time to think of these things (and I wonder if he would have, even if he had.)
Someone wanted something of him--a small favor; he didn't really know what was or wasn't involved--maybe it wasn't a very big bag of groceries; any number of things..
But he didn't think about it. He just did it.
And I'm amazed.
When I realized what he'd done and who he'd done it for--just some kid, just his employee, just some guy he'd hired to watch his gas station--I said, "That was SO NICE of you."
I thought about it some more.
"That was soo NICE of you, Rob."
I thought even further.
"Jeese, Rob, THAT was so NICE of you."
He shrugged it off, with hardly a word.
Leon came and picked up his groceries. He was wearing a large tentlike raincoat; and he gathered up his bag, quietly said thanks, and waited in the store for a while, to watch for the next bus. It was still pouring like a one-day Spring season.
Damn, that was nice. Damn, I got to wait in the rain and see it happen.
People like that DO exist, and I got to witness it.
Yanno what I'm saying?
Re: the porn decision
What the Court is saying, I think, is that photos or images are just that, photos or images. If they are a record of illegal activity, then they become evidence.
So, child porn that is animated, or created, without the actual act ever occuring, is not a crime.
In a sick way, maybe this could be a partial answer to the rampant problem of child porn (or any porn). If the images can be created, without abusing actual children, that's a huge step towards getting this problem under control. We can worry about the sickos who look at this stuff later...let's protect the kids, first.
Harlan~
I thought that imho had made into the lexicon when I heard it used in every day conversation. "Well, imho, George Dubya is a great president." I shit you not.
I personally like IMNSHO (In my NOT so humble opinion). And the one I'm most guilty of perpetrating, ROFLMAO (Rolling on floor, laughing my ass off).
L.
Hey, who wants to be the one to tell Harlan about "emoticons," huh? :) :-p <:
What makes a neologism a good neologism anyway? I think if it's really irritating, we should tell it to go fuck itself. Which is a good method of dealing with people too.
Speaking of those little shorthand phrases, I loved this list from THE ONION (www.theonion.com):
LODLSM -- Logged On Dressed Like Sailor Moon
XIF -- Christ, I'm Fat
DYHTNTMBG? -- Did You Hear The New They Might Be Giants?
18/F/NYC -- Pockmarked 46-Year-Old In Bathrobe
IHTWBSAP -- I Have Trouble With Basic Spelling And Punctuation
JEOMK -- Just Ejaculated On My Keyboard
NTBUSWAB -- Not To Bring Up Star Wars Again, But...
TOMTB -- Taking Off My Training Bra
CILYIMBF -- Can I Lock You In My Basement Forever?
HOGMP -- Hang On, Getting More Pringles
WSTS -- Weeping Silently To Self
© Copyright 2002 Onion, Inc.
THE MOVIE CAMERA:
I have a strong tendency to dislike films in which the camera draws attention to itself but it's not like it's some diehard rule that you can't do it. I think the kinetic camera works great in Evil Dead, for example. I even liked the shaky hand-held style in Blair Witch.
I didn't like it in Panic Room. I felt there was no good reason for the camera to be constantly gliding along corridors and around corners then swooping down through floors (showing us the inner composition of the woodwork along the way) and diving into keyholes and such. I know he was trying to create a sense of creeping paranoia by this technique but I thought he would have been better served to focus on a superior story rather than gimmickry.
Of course, Fincher knows a lot more about directing than I do so I'm sure he couldn't care less what I think so I'm doing nothing but expressing my personal taste.
I feel there's a lot of MTV video-style pyrotechnics in films today and that many directors mistakenly consider those tricks a valid substitute for solid story-telling.
Wanna take a look at a beautiful camera move (I know there are millions of 'em but I just watched it last night so it's fresh) look at the opening sequence of 8 1/2, directed by Fellini. The protagonist is having a nightmare. He's trapped in his car. Most of the early cuts are static one or two-shots establishing the claustrophobia he feels as he is trapped in his car with onlookers ogling him the whole time. When he finally gets out of the car, the camera makes a beautifl sweep up to a bus then back to him as he escapes soon to be flying through the air. Well done and done for a good reason.
College students are welcome here, especially from a program that esteems this site enough to suggest it. I am sure the professor's goal in doing so is to encourage students to do something ACTIVE with their learning and to see a community interested in speculative fiction. I laud that effort.
What you will run into in communities like this, though, is a sort of residual anger and weariness at people that come here as an alternative to doing actual work. Often this comes in the form of copying paper assignments here. If there were a "Dostoevsky's Dungeon" website with a similar board, you'd occaisionally something like the following:
"Hi, I am a big Dustoyevsky fan (does anyone know when his next appearance is?) & I was reading THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV tonight & the following question occurrred to me: Dostoevsky employs a number of narrative techniques in THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV, often nesting recollections 2 or 3 levels deep. Why does Dostoevsky employ this technique and what does it say about the reliability of hs narrators, especially when they are conveying 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th hand information? Can u help me wiht this question? I am a big fan and it wud really help me."
So when we get someone who has a legitimate simple question, the tendency is to come at them like piranhas. You'll note I don't usually involve myself in the feeding frenzy, but I'm also not inclined to stop people who are trying to do the Good Work.
If I could tender some advice it would be to place a caveat that if a question is to be proferred here it be one that would not be readily answerable by brief research of the movie or its source material.
YKIRHTGPBSFCWT!
(=You Know, I Really Hate Those Goddamned Pea-Brained Substitutes For Clear Writing, Too.)
Since Lynn got to dig up the past, I thought I'd dig some up too.
---Peter
___________________________
Peter San Jose, CA - Wednesday, May 19, 1999 at 10:14:21 (CDT)
I believe the origins of LOL can be traced back to the mickweepei tribe of southern makdonaland. Whereas Eskimos have 26 words for snow, the mickweepei have one word for everything. Lol? one of them asks. Lol, a second replies. Lol! the third responds defiantly while sharpening his pointed stick.
In modern times the phrase LOL has taken on meaning in the wilds of cyberspace as an expression of hilarity. The phrase, roughly translated into the queen's english literally means "laughing out loud." however, other variations of this phrase have appeared in the wilds of cyberspace and can only be attributed to the phenomenon of continental shift. ROTFL is a common derivative which can be translated to "rolling on the floor laughing." Another is LOLSHICBHHHIPOPCAA which can be translated into "laughing out loud so hard I cannot breath. help. help. help. I'm passing out. Please call an Ambulance."
Oh course the phrase LOL is commonly misused to mean various other things. Two of the most common misuses of LOL are "lot's of luck" and "look out lonny" though the latter isn't as popular as most of the other misuses due to the small percentage of the population named lonny.
Further studies can probably determine where the mickweepei tribe got the word LOL and how it was that they were able to construct an entire language from it. But I doubt it.
---Peter
Barney, I always read LOL as Laughing Out Loud.
Regardless (or should I really send Harlan into a grammar uproar and say Irregardless?), I hate the fucking things. I understand most when I'm reading, but I hate them and never use them.
LOL.....how about "gee, that was damn funny"?
-TODD
Frank: Free speech, like free lunch, is an illusion. You can't shout "fire" in a movie theatre, after all. And free Internet, hell, all of us here should know what a bunch of crap that is.
All I have to say about the Supreme Court decision is, it's great to be so idealistic, but ask yourself: how would you feel if it was *your* kid that was photomanipulated to look like he was committing sex acts, and then plastered across the Internet for all to see? I'm sure you'd be overwrought with concern for the perpetrator's Constitutional rights. If so, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
Am I really getting into this discussion again? I'm gonna go lay down.
Bermanator
I haven't time for detective work right now:
Harlan apparently once confronted some punk mobster or Mafia godfather and I believe he wrote about it. What collection can it be found in? Is it available? (Harlan? Susan?)
Picture the time-delay brought on by poor typing skills - I know as I type this with my sunburned monkeypaws one of you is going to beat me to this.
IMHO - In my humble opinion.
It's about the only chatroomspeak I use because I find it says much and usually captures a certain tone. The other two most commonly seen are
LOL - lots of laughter and
ROTFWL - rolling on the floor with laughter
the latter is to be used only when keyboards must be cleaned. Like the standing ovation it should not be debased by overuse.
Although at first blush it may seem Orwellian it's no better or worse than all the FANAC abbreviations I've learned in order to make sense of the crumbling woodpulp that used to serve this purpose.
Stopping now to see how many posters beat me to the punch - B.
Harlan, more webspeak to never make it into a real dictionary: IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.
Of course, just writing the statement makes it the writer's humble opinion....but hey, webnerds love to shorten things that don't even need saying!
-TODD
them to be?
- arrrggghhhh
were better?
was better?
- AAAAAAaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrggghhhh look away, it burns!!!
BARNEY:
Love ya, baby! Just love ya. And by the way...all of you seem to know what IMHO means. I do not. Just what the fuck DOES IMHO mean?
Indolent Mice Hate Oleomargarine?
Irradiated Melons Harbor Oligarchies?
Indira Mahndi Has Osteoparosis?
I Miss Hermann Oucken (1869-1946)?
Kindly shitcan the infobahn esperanto if you intend to reach poor dumbasses like me. This is idiot corporate jingoism.
Charmingly, yr. pal OJNCDFG-KKREEMN ellison
*** Lynn *** I just sent you 349 active Ellison links. Pester me at your peril baby. ;-]
*** Damon Knight *** Wrote some great stories. Can't speak to his skills as an editor. Have a rather cool opinion of him otherwise. I read his attacks on Van Vogt and his other SF criticism from the 1950's and found it to be savage without redemption. IMHO. I think much of the tone of 'zines like Thrust and Ansible can be traced right back to Damon Knight. It's a tough thing for me to forget. I think the SF criticism done by Blish [as William Atheling, Jr.] and the formidable Budrys was better in that you always came away knowing more than what you did before even if the work being examined was forgetable.
His inability to cut Van Vogt any slack whatsoever, long after the point was moot also mitigates against rosey eulogizing from this corner. We choose who we are going to miss in this life and that's a choice I'm going to live with. I suppose if I knew that circle or had ever met Kate Wilhelm I would have kept my mouth shut but I don't and I haven't so there you go.
*** the Fincher thread *** I've never made it a secret that I enjoy his films. "Fight Club" in particular. Still, I think "Panic Room" is a lesser effort. If I had to choose one quibble it would be that I wish he would open up his palette. I'm getting real sick of the washed out green /anemic blue / puke yellow triad.
On the upside, I had no problem with the camera work. I know Harlan doesn't feel the camera should draw attention to itself but I think it's more to do with who is holding the camera. D.W. Griffith said movies should move and while he was wrong about any number of things I'm pretty sure he was right about that. There is a parallel in prose. Sometimes you want the transparent prose style of a John D. MacDonald. Other times you want something more showey like a Lafferty or an early T.C. Boyle. OR a Harlan Ellison. I think Fincher salvaged material that would have been unwatchable in the hands of a hack like DePalma. Yes Virginia, I hate DePalma.
- Barney
*** dept. of having Van Cliburn at your recital ***
I thank Crom and Mitra everyday that Harlan doesn't rip me a new one the size of the Grand Canyon every time I post here. My abuse of the language combined with my inability to proofread even simple errors like their / they're / there & two / to / too will probably have me setting type in hell before much more time passes.
TODD: It's "lying about in the grass," not "laying about in the grass." (And spare me the juvenilia response we anticipate from you, anent lying/laying.) Nyuck nyuck nyuck, my ass. As for my equine attitude, Sunny Jim, you may tell me to fuck myself and the high horse I rode in on, but I respond with fuck you and the snake you slithered in on. Nyuck you, Chollie.
JAY: Quincy Jones was not the director of A BOY AND HIS DOG. Geezus, don't you people ever check anygoddamthing? No wonder the internet is so paranoiacally untrustworthy, if even smart cookies like youse guys can't get it right. The director's name was L.Q. JONES. White, southern drawl, never wrote a bar of music in his life. QUINCY JONES is black, urban East Coast, big-time Hollywood, speaks in a dignified manner, and never appeared in Sam Peckinpah westerns. Otherwise, they were separated at birth.
Which brings me to
MS. ZOE ROSE:
I gather you don't care for my manner. As I've been saying more than a few times lately, "Yeah, I get a lot of complaints about that." But if you actually think my mild and exhausted mumblings toward you were expended to "ground you down," child, then best you go back to the N'Sync chat-room where one can spend endless hours without once detecting the passage of a thought. And no one gets stroppy with you unless you have the bad taste to point out that the group's frightened-chipmunk chittering is to music as a bag lady is to Marlene Dietrich. I was treating you with courtesy. Granted, my twisted and barbaric standards of civility and opprobrium (look it up) are not generally those of civilized folks, but then, I'm a "charming guy" (I think that's what you called me, or something akin), and I think by the time someone is in college, they ought to have enough smarts to read the fuckin' credits on a movie to find out where it came from. I know that's UNCOOL, but to be absolutely mop-up straight with you, toots, I'm fed to the back teeth with Young Moderns who equate "cool" with being as informed as a Swiffer.
ZOE REPLIES (in the sanctity of her cranium): WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU'RE TALKING TO, YOU ARROGANT ASSHOLE!?!
Oh, hell, Zoe darlin', don't be so snappish. Hang around here a while and you'll soon find the doofus crowd you bond with at school very wearying indeed. The folks hereabouts in Cozy Corners for the most part spell things rite, they use good grammnner (except they can't find their way around "off of" or "lying vs. laying," which I'm sure you can), and they almost never pick their toes in Poughkeepsie. (Ask them for the referent.) In fact--New Horrors! New Horrors!--you might actually pick up some life-altering insights. Painless. Yet nourishing. And Justin's looking for a new girl friend, so who knows . . . ?
I'm sure the Webderlanders will rush in now to balm your bruised sensibilities. Oh, what a MAWNSTUH I am, crrrrrrushing the tender blossom of the zoe rose.
I go now to shrive myself. Yr. abject srvnt.,
Harlan READ THE GODDAM STORY Ellison
Zoe, sheesh, being informed is not that hard. Just study hard and be well read and all will be right with the world. At least you will be ahead of most of America; who barely read their cereal boxes.
Being informed is free like the wind. Curl your sails into the horizon and let it flow baby.
I agree with the Supreme Court on the new decision. Simulated aint the actual thing guys, just as a faked snuff movie aint the real thing.
Both should be legal. If you cannot protect dangerous speech then all speech is on the chopping block.
"Bill - I think he figured it was full of smart people such as all of you."
She labled included me in the smart people here! She included me!!!!
Welcome, Zoe, and please stay!
Bill
Frogs. . . pesticides. . . hairy palms. . . blindness.
--shrug--
I don't get it.
Until next time. . .
From CNN.COM today: I gotta stop laying around in the grass; I'm having way too much fun with myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-TODD
PESTICIDE BLAMED FOR SEXUAL MUTATION IN FROGS
April 16, 2002 Posted: 10:55 AM EDT (1455 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Male frogs exposed to even very low doses of a common weed killer can develop multiple sex organs -- sometimes both male and female -- researchers in California have discovered.
So this board (and related site) is now being utilized in a university course.
I suppose this means I have to start wearing pants when the highbrows, the academic sparrowfarts are about? Long pants, at that?
With no offense to Mr. Ellison, who is right to scream and rant: READ THE &^%$# BOOK INSTEAD OF WATCHING THE ^%$# MOVIE, I gotta wonder: What the hell is going on in universities if a) they are not encouraging students to read source materials--BOOKS, b) how it is they can make students pay insane amounts of tuition when they are basically saying: Go play on the web 'cos I'm too lazy to actually teach anything, and c) can a university course legally take what is found on a message board such as this one without consideration of copyright, intellectual property, and use it in a course where people pay to attend?
Oh, what a web the web doth weaves.
Understand: I think it a wonderful thawng if one can incorporate such technologies as the web into a workshop, class, or course, but, um. . . something don't feel right here.
Am I being paranoid with regards to this matter, or is there a valid concern here?
Gotta dash. Have to get this here 'creative non-fiction' article I am writing done and flung in the general direction of the editor-god type person. Upside to it: I reference the WRITTEN works of one Harlan Ellison in it.
Stay tuned.
Until next time. . .
Some frustrating news from the Supreme Court Today.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/16/scotus.virtual.child.porn/index.html
So an illustration or a photomanip of a child in a pose or engaged in a sex act is not NECESSARILY illegal. If it is computer-generated, performed by legal-age actors or otherwise SIMULATED, it is okay.
I feel a rant coming on.
Barney~ You promised me links. When ya gonna cough 'em up? (I've been google mining and there's some pretty cool stuff out there. Don't worry, I'll share soon.)
L.
RICK: Important question that everyone seems to have overlooked.
The website you painstakingly built, and the community of this board which depends on your hospitality and hard work, are being used as a text in a university course.
Shouldn't you be getting some remuneration?
The Twilight Zone....
Since I spent the better part of the day today at a software conference in Downers Grove, IL (which despite its name is a very up place), I though I'd pop over to nearby Naperville and visit the main store of Graham Crackers comics, which some from Chicagoland may agree with mas as being a fine comics shop, but woefully misplaced in Naperville, which might as well be in Iowa if you live near the lake.
Anyway, after browsing for about an hour, I looked down at the back issues of the independents on the floor, and right there for my eye to catch was The Twilight Zone--Crazy as a Soup Sandwich, by Harlan Ellison and illustrated by Neal Adams.
Well, I snatched THAT up, and later upon reading it, noticed that it was published by NOW Comics (apparently NOW defunct). The kicker...NOW's Northbrook address is (was) two doors down from where I work.
Doo dee doo dee
Doo dee doo dee
Harlan: Kee-rist! I already admitted that I fucked up after Rick pointed it out. What more do you want from me, blood?
Oh well, back to the nettle lashings.
---Peter
Bill - I think he figured it was full of smart people such as all of you. He just didn't realize how sick you were of getting the questions. I've told him to take a look at the board, and so maybe he'll remind students to sound as educated, yet as little like college students, as they can.
--Zoe Rose
All right, all - I don't feel put out, or special, or anything. In fact, it's great that such a response is being given. I do love to read, and now that I read closer I see that the overview of the movie says, "Based on the book written by H.E." and so dummy me.
For the record, I enjoy reading the books better than watching the movies. I'm not a kid trying to get out of work by phasing my brain out into mindless screen-watching. Hope to hear more great comments and stuff. And I promise to keep my piddly college-class questions out of it from now on.
--Zoe Rose
Thickness of skull and dullness of mind presently causes me to forget who it was who brought it up, but, thank you. (Chuck? Sue? Bob? Nancy?) About The Tattered Cover and the fact the police of Denver maintain what amounts to an enemies list, sanctioned by the mayor of Denver:
Yes? And?
That The Tattered Cover won this round means nothing. Meeeester Big, Wellington Webb, is looking, like Bill Clinton, for a legacy (and flushing the toilet thirty million times to get rid of all the fish at Ocean Journey don't count), so he will happily assault the First Amendment. Which means, locally, The Tattered Cover Bookstore.
A thought: Gotta get there and get my latest fix of things literary. Yes, I know: They have a web site, but I just gotta play in all that &^%$ traffic T-Rex is causing.
Until next time. . .
Jim Hess
I just don't get the my-professor-wanted-me-to-post-on-this-website-because-it's-cool thing. And that's all I'm saying.
Bill
Lynn, Zoe, et al...
It seems to me that any study of the film would DEMAND an understanding, even in passing, that it was based on another medium. Otherwise it's just movie-watching time with no more insight gleaned than the usual Saturday night crowd at any Hoyt's or AMC theater.
The name Harlan Ellison passes the desk of a college course and ISN'T put into context with the vast, mind-manglingly huge library of work the man's produced? Sheesh. I'm sorry. Either the message in this course isn't being reliably transmitted or adequately received.
I can only imagine the syllabus referred to it as "This cool sci-fi movie with the guy from 'Miami Vice', a talking dog (just like Knight Rider...except it's a dog, not a car) and sex jokes. Directed by Quincy Jones and Written by Harlan Ellison. Not very good movie by Jones (he should stick to music) but pretty good by Ellison who wrote a cool Star Trek episode once. Thumbs up."
Demand a refund. Or, better still as Mr. Ellison put it
READ THE STORY
READ THE BOOK
Respectfully,
Jay
OH, Zoe... If you have a copy of the syllabus for this course, I'd love to see it. :)
Zoe, don't feel special or put out because of the response you got from Harlan. That's the standard response that everyone gets who comes here asking about the movie. Really, it wasn't personal. What you should really be getting angry about is a college class you're paying money for that's teaching you about a film without even *telling* you there was a novella to go along with it. That'd really chap my hide if I were you.
L.
Zoe, once you read, A Boy And His Dog, you will kick yourself for your overwrought rant. The heart of the last line in that story proves that writing will always be superior to the visual medium.
I do know how to spell "siege" - I just don't always know how to type.
Chris, ok pal, it's numchucks in the alley with you sucka!
No, I found the film riveting. I am a hard guy to thrill. but as you said, to each his own. but do not let me catch you after sundown in this here part of town again. Wink.
By the way - thanks, Chuck, for giving me your insights. They really helped me understand the movie more. Hopefully the next time I watch it I'll catch the things I missed this time around, and reading the book should help even more. Thanks for taking the time to answer!!
--Zoe Rose
Well, Xanadu, the Knight was usually very careful with his work, but that site you cite is even more incomplete than the SF Site's bibliography, which misses his term as editor of IF, WORLDS OF SCIENCE FICTION magazine (and his scriptwriting for CAPTAIN VIDEO, not perhaps the most important work of his life).
http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?Damon_Knight
Fantasticfiction UK is a good site, but this one's a bit better, at least for most US sf writers. He was a busy man for a fair amount of his life. Hope you like the book, Lynn. Yeah, Alex, life's funny that way, eh? TM
Harlan Ellison-
Ok, look, I apologize for my ignorance. I didn't really know there WAS a novella. Just so that you're better informed, questions posted on your lovely webpage here AREN'T posted by lazy students hoping to get ahead of the others. This is an Independent Study course where it's part of the assignment to post on your webpage because it's known to be a cool page. Ok? So lay off a bit, eh? Seriously.
I don't get any extra points for getting answers here. In fact, all I had to do was post, and then tell the prof that I posted. So instead of just posting dumbass questions I tried to ask ones that I honestly didn't know the answer to.
Well, it's your page. I like reading the posts because everyone's so.. in touch. Didn't realize I'd get ground into dust for posting here, and will try and remember to add a note at the end from now on for these types of assignments-
"Only a dumbshit college kid doing an assignment for class - please ignore."
Thank God someone bothered to e-mail me to see if that was the case. Thanks, you know who you are.
This person was even so gracious as to inform me there WAS a novella - which I'm trying to get from our library now, so I WILL be reading the goddamned book. I'm actually looking forward to it, even. Especially now that I know what a charming guy wrote it.
--Zoe Rose
If you liked Panic Room, fine with me. To each his own.
But what's "to get." [MINOR SPOILER WHICH YOU ALREADY KNOW FROM THE COMMERCIALS] Three guys break into a house and try to steal something from the room that the two protganosits are also in.
Ain't nothin' to get. It's supposed to be a simple suspense story much like Straw Dogs' seige sequence or Assault on Precinct 13.
It doesn't work because it's just plain boring, boring, boring. There's not one ounce of tension to be found in a single scene in the movie.
Lynn, now I got ya sister. You aren't allowed to ever critisize me about grammar again. Hehe.
Chris, Panic Room has clever directing that to me was fun to watch. The directing tricks were meant to imply a format of "cat and mouse" misdirection. The camera movements were used like a suspensful operetta with the minds eye--not unlike some of the ways Hitchcock used it. I see cleverness in what you see as disquieting. This is the Blair Witch excuse: Because of the shaky camera work, in Blair Witch, people dismissed the film out of hand, without first looking at the premise, or the film as a complete whole. This is nit pickyness at it's worst. Panic Room is a great thrill ride, nothing more. The script has holes in logic, but what it promises it delivers on. I ask for nothing more.
-----------------------------------
But I will say, the shaky camera in Woody Allen's, Husbands and Wives made no fucking sense, artistically. Go get a steadycam Woodman!! Sheesh. You can afford it.
---------------------
Also saw, Frailty. What an odd film. Good, but strange. I will admit the ending surprised me. Maybe I'm a shill.
That would be _impaired_.
Not a prodigious output, to be sure - but I do have several of his books, and I did enjoy them...
Here's a bibliography for the search impared...
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Damon_Knight.htm
R.I.P.
Chris L, Panic Room is wonderful; if you didn't get it, then I cannot or will not try to sway you. To each his own. The movie is very well acted, and has a clever, suspenseful edge. There are flaws, but the fine acting and amazing directing by Fincher made it for me.
Rotten Tomatoes.com gave the film a 77 percent positive rating; which is quite high for most films, especially of this type.
TODD: What annoys me is that Robert Urich's passing was front-page CNN.com news, whereas Knight--who, aside from his own writing, was a huge force in writers' education, with books, Milford, and a lot of other workshops, isn't even mentioned. I LIKED Urich, true, but I had much rather that we see less disparity between how those who WRITE the words and those who SPEAK the words are regarded.
Pipe dream, I know ...
Lynn & Todd: I'm surprised there wasn't more chatter about him. Lynn, in the original TZ series, do you remember the episode "To Serve Man"? Where supposed friendly aliens come to Earth ending all strife and transport humans back to their home planet...to eat them. Anyway, that episode was based on DK's short story. He was also the founder of the SFWA back around 1965 and edited the first Nebula annual anthology. He also edited the Orbit series. He was married to Kate Wilhelm. Anyway, there is so much more about the man and many will surely miss him.
Charlie & Todd~ I did not note Mr. Knight's passing on the board, because I am unfamiliar with the man's writing. I did, however, go to alibris.com and buy a copy of Mr. Knight's Creating Short Fiction. I figure the most honest tribute from one writer to another is to go out and buy a book.
L.
Dear Harlan,
Thank you for what you wrote. I didn't know those things. There is so much I don't know. Would you give me the title of a book that might enlighten me on this subject?
My formal education is slight. I did not attend college except for the occassional writer's workshop and online extension course.
You once gave a class some advice. You said to read the classics. I listened.
I learned by reading The Brothers Karamozov, Madame Bovary, Les Miserables, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, A Tale Of Two Cities, The Three Musketeers, Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, and on and on. Twenty years ago last summer you set my feet on a path that changed the course of my life forever. I learned to communicate by reading those books. They gave me the words that I lacked and needed. They made me laugh and cry and ponder things that count.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still no silk purse. Without instruction I'm apt to look up at the sky or sit down, but I am not nearly as nauseous as I once was.
Thank you, Harlan.
Cindy
Lynn, nice job on the search. Here, you still have some dust and cobwebs in your hair...now go fix your hot-water heater.
Charlie--Glad you also took the time to note Damon Knight's passing.
Pity no one else has.
Has anyone happened to notice that the current top-ranked 3-year-old thoroughbred in the country, and likely favorite in the Kentucky Derby, is...
Harlan's Holiday?
Just thought I'd mention it. No pressure to actually lay down bets or anything...as opposed to $325 million Big Game Lottery tickets.
Reading a story with smooth language is like wearing an old pair of jeans. You don't even notice it. Language should never get in the way of the story.
L.
PS. Jay: LOL. That was an excellent parody! I think there's a film short in that!
Mr.Ellison: Thank you for Grammar 101. Even literate, book-reading people fall into slovenly patterns of speech and writing.
I'm going to dig out my Strunk & White after I leave the coal mine for home.
R.Wilder
P.S. I'm reading the recent Pevear and Volokhonsky translation of "Anna Karenina,"and greatly enjoying it; Tolstoy's grammar is exceptional.
Harlan and Lynn: Get off of your high horse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-TODD
nyuk nyuk nyuk
FRESH IN FROM ARCHIVE DIVING. ::cough, sputter, sneeze:: {Let us not mention the names I came up with when searching for 'off of'.}
-----------------------
HARLAN ELLISON
- Friday, August 24 2001 11:22:33
Lynn & Adam: It is ungrammatical to say "off of," as both of you did in your latest posts. It's a double negative, and what is commonly referred to in writing workshops as "schoolgirl grammar." So many of you talk about being writers, and lament "writers' block" (which I shan't go into now, though most of your musings do make me hide my mouth behind my hand so you won't perceive that I'm giggling), yet you apparently have not rubbed Strunk & White into your pores, and neither Follett nor Fowler seem to be your bosom companions, or even on your must-read lists with the shoals of contemporary fictioneers.
"Off" is sufficient. "Off of" is wrong. Oh, and Adam, when you speak of "skimming off the top," it's the equivalent of saying, I live in a big house home." Skimming MEANS across the surface.
The top, that is. Even if it's at the bottom of a filthy pond, and you're skimming the crud off (not off of) the bottom, you're STILL skimming off the top...of the bottom surface. Many of you use unthinking redundancies that are a dead giveaway to editors who KNOW good writing, that the person submitting the manuscript is an amateur, a parvenu, a tyro. I'll give you a few examples, and a way to avoid them:
"He looked up at the sky." No shit. You cannot look "down" at the sky. (Now, let's get something out of the way from the git-go. Yes, I suppose if you were seeing the sky's reflection in a pool, a mirror, your highly-polished parochial school Mary Janes, you might conceivably be smartass--but no less rdundant--in rationalizing the postulation that one of these rarest-of-the-rare exceptions will justify your gaffe. That is what assholes who don't really want to learn, but need desperately to justify their errors, do. They think the exceptions, no matter how convoluted and improbable, get them off the hook, and prove what a dolt the teacher is. Yeah, sure, if you stretch the rationale till it creaks, you can probably find some convoluted "what-if" bullshit reason for your redundancy. But those smartass exceptions only muddy the water for your understanding of this common flaw in most people's speech and writing. So don't be a smartass.)
He knelt down. No shit. You can't "kneel up."
The snow fell to the ground. No shit. Unless you're living on the planet Zxymllll in the anti-matter galaxy of GHtyrl, that's what happens when gravity rules. Snow falls. To the ground. Or the tabletop. Or the ragtop. Whatever the object of the sentence is. It falls to it.
He shook his head no. No shit. Try shaking your head yes.
He used his mental telepathy. No shit. Since telepathy MEANS mind-to-mind, I challenge you to use your "physical telepathy."
He waved his hand goodbye. No shit. Try waving your adenoids goodbye. He waved goodbye. Period. End of sentence.
The examples go on and on and on. Just go back and reread any contemporary paperback, or one of your own postings, and ask that "reverse" of each redundancy: "he turned around," for instance. If he turned "around," he spun 360. If he "turned," which is precise and correct, he need only rotate sufficient for your purpose as a storyteller. Ask the reverse. He sat down. No shit. How can he sit "up," unless he's on the ground or in bed or lounging on the sofa. When someone standing sits, he or she only sits. Down is the only way s/he can go. He cannot--ask the reverse--sit up on a chair. (Unless he's in an Amish or Mennonite household where they raise the chairs onto wall-pegs after the meals; and our protagonist has developed the amazing Olympic competition ability to fling himself upward and backward, plonking onto the wall-ensconsed seat. I am smartass, hear me bleat.)
This has been Harlan Ellison's Writing Lesson #8,000,001.
Gee, I wish someone were listening.
PETER FROM UNION CITY
and
BRIAN SIANO:
You have GOT TO STOP using the ungrammatical redundancy "off of."
You're making my eyeballs bleed! Please. Have I ever asked you for anything? Please.
MS. ZOE ROSE:
This Duluth course is getting to be an embolism in the cascading Ellisonian bloodstream. Yes, those who inquired re: "A Boy and His Dog" on this website previously--interminably--got ANSWERS. And most of those answers were:
READ THE GODDAM STORY!!!! You saw a movie, kiddo, not the original. ALWAYS read the source material. Apart from learning the answers to ALL YOUR QUESTIONS and getting an ace in the class because you'll be better informed than your classmates who're too lazy to go to the wellspring, YOU WILL ENJOY THE STORY! Classes that let students "entertain" themselves with derivative incarnations of the work, no matter how faithful, do the students a disservice. So don't bother looking up all those past Webderland postings . . . go read the story.
In case I was unclear on that last . . .
GO
READ
THE
STORY.
Wearily, Harlan Ellison
You wanna know what really honks me off about PANIC ROOM, a film I haven't even SEEN yet? It's the title--it should read *THE* PANIC ROOM, not PANIC ROOM, but *THE* *THE* *THE* a thousand times *THE* PANIC ROOM. What's with the rampant omissions of the definite article from movie titles today? Are the mass injections of sheep placenta causing some kind of collective aphasia among Hollywood execs?
JON: Skinny on the street (ok, on AICN) is that Guillermo del Toro wants to write/direct an adaptation of AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS. After seeing his STUNNING film THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE, I say give him the money and let him rip.
Oh, and yes, I *WAS* using the Upper Canada Rebellion as the cutoff date for the modern novel, you smartass, you. (Said with affection, of course.)
Dear Zebrapix,
I am writing to you out of deepest respect and urgency. My name is Zupo Renfield and I am Minister of Defense for the small African nation of Wakawanda. We are currently experiencing a brutal civil war in which hundreds of our people are dying every day to prevent a violent overthrow by the President’s brother Frakanaka Zeballa.
Frakanaka (nicknamed “Ken”) is an evil madman intent on enslaving the people of our nation, who will desecrate the Christian monuments, repeal all civil rights laws passed since the start of his brother’s reign, and subject all citizens to round-the-clock reruns of “Mama's Family” and “Hollywood Squares”.
It is of this threat that I write to you. The Ministry of Defense has an urgent need to relocate its warehouse of small American bills, jewels, and gold bars to your garage until the coming war has ended. If it remains here, above the garage of our Minister of Labor Ponse Rashiki, it may be discovered and plundered by rioters.
And if you do not mind terribly, we would like to store our pool table, video collection and John Denver records. If you have room for an additional Presidential limousine, please let us know. We hope to make the transfer as soon as possible. Upon receipt of your keys, our Republican Army will transfer the material into your storehouse. We promise they will not drink your beer or break any crystal miniature bells on your kitchen shelf during this transfer.
I ask you to respond quickly to support our effort against Ken. In victory, you will be given a hero’s welcome and honorary citizenship in Wakawanda, a statue in your image to stand among the great leaders of our nation, and a lifetime supply of Fizzy-Time Root Beer™ our nation’s primary export.
Thank you again for your attention. Please respond to this email.
The Right Honorable Zupo Renfield
Minister of Defense
The People’s Republic of Wakawanda
Embassy Road
Washington Heights
Oh, and last night on the Starz Mystery Channel... (or was it Sunday?)
"SCREAM, BLACULA, SCREAM!"
Oh yes...what a horrid piece of filth with Pam Grier playing super-foil to William Marshall. Oh the 'fros and the rainbow dyed dashikis, poly-stretch pantsuits and a bunch of the ole exploitationary stereotypes. Wow. And and ending that will leave you confused, amused and, yes, even a little amazed by its abruptness and lack of sense.
Cinematography on the same level as mine, writing worse than 'Batman & Robin'. It was quite hilarious.
Hmm. Chuck's posting made me think of a recent case here, in which the police infiltrated a Narcotics Anonymous group while investigating a murder. The police officer who did so won an officer of the year citation; the case was thrown out; a lot of media coverage now is now focused on the number of people who have left Narcotics Anonymous because they no longer feel safe, and how much damage this investigation may have done to the whole process of people seeking help at AA, NA, etc. It's an ugly case. The police pointed out that there are no rules stopping them from infiltrating NA and AA groups on a case-by-case basis. I have a feeling that this may spur some new privacy legislation in Canada related to reasonable expectations et al., given our already strict controls on wire-tapping and recorded conversations (except when the intelligence community is involved -- ain't that always the way?).
Little Washu: Oh, I liked The Thing. I liked it even better when it first came out when I was 14. The effects are almost ludicrously influential -- the shifting double-face effect gets echoed in T2 and The Matrix, to name two, and Steve Bissette and Rick Veitch and John Totleben used it during the Etrigan storyline in Moore's Swamp Thing run. Watching the 1950s version was a big disappointment -- the snivelling, accomodating scientist in the Nyby film is alone almost as annoying as the frat-boy antarctic researchers in Carpenter's work.
I'd like to see a decent film version of the novella that looms behind Campbell's novella -- "At the Mountains of Madness" -- in part because it gets at some of that Wellsian indifferent universe vibe that often seems scarier than booga-booga creepy aliens stuff, although it's got them too. That the narrator 'forgives' the unfrozen scientist aliens who slaughter one camp because he realizes that, compared to what they face later, they have motives humans share (fear, curiosity, a tendency to fall into ice), is a nice grace note. I'm not advocating Trek-level mushydom here -- but as an antagonist, the Thing in pretty much any version remains a complete outsider, a cipher. I don't know that I want a story from its POV, ala *The Dracula Tape*, but what exactly is it doing, and what are its plans for Earth? Would it really replace all fauna with itself? Then what? Come to think of it, Greg Bear's *Blood Music* takes that and runs with it, to great effect.
No exams? Geez, is that why you get to knock off early?
Cheers, Jon
I won't debate Mr. Chris L on Panic Room, though I found it to be entertaining enough for this so-far dismal movie year....I won't debate, I won't debate.
What I do want to comment on is Frailty. You know how Chris L appears to loathe Panic Room? You know how he was tempted to walk out? Well, as a man who has never walked out on a movie (that I paid for) no matter how bad, I could have easily walked out on Frailty but for the comfy dozy position I had attained in my seat.
Frailty is predictable, has very sloppy camera work, and is just gawdawful dull.
Frailty wants to be a small film that sneaks up on you and generates buzz.
Nope. Didn't work for me. I could not wait for the big surprise revelation that I figured out in the first 20 minutes to come out already so that we could all head to the exits. Give me Panic Room over Frailty any damn day of my life!
I didn't like it.
-TODD
Dan Tanna, RIP. Last words: "Binzer, keep your damn hands off the T-Bird."
Heather writes - "I ain't putting down Cavalier or any girlie mag. It was an outlet for BOTH Steve and Harlan--when no one else would take them."
I'm posting this when I really should be doing something else -like sleep - so just a quick note to get my fingers moving while waiting for the coffee to take hold.
Heather, I can't speak for King because I'm not nearly as familiar with his exact progression through the markets. I think in his case you may be correct, in that some or all of his Cavalier sales were pre-Carrie, so, yes, he would have needed the money. But with Harlan that assumption is dead wrong. In most cases [and I'm talking about hundreds of appearances in mens magazines here - not just the 20 or 50 100 you may be familiar with] the choice was not desperation but fiscal self-interest. Those markets -
(Knight,Gent,Rogue,Adam,Mister,Cavalier,Adam Bedside Reader,Genesis,Knave - enough already - Tim Richmond and I kid each other that when we die or our Ellison compounds are broken into by Bradbury-esque "firemen" they will find us hoarding huge stacks of cheesy "blue" magazines and scattered 1st's of Twain in my case and Poe in his and ask themselves "what's wrong with this picture".) fuck, where was I -
Those markets almost always paid better than the Science Fiction alternative. Also a lot of the material Harlan was writing in the early 1960's had no business in an SF venue. Can you see most of the stuff in "Gentleman Junkie", "Deadly Streets" and "No Doors, No Windows" in Venture or Galaxy or Analog? Fuhgedaboudit. Other advantages were length and art choices.
A couple of dozen of Harlan's better/best early works were published with color or duo-tone[?] illustrations by Leo & Diane Dillon which certainly enhanced their impact and these would have been impossible to do in any of the SF mags of the era. Even the bedsheet sized Analogs were still doing simple line work illos.
Length - size does matter. You could sneak in more novella length material (Harlan's favorite writing length when the story is cooking) in that genre. Especially if you knew [or were] the editor. ;-)
One of Barry Malzberg's many regrets was that he didn't publish "The Resurrgence of Miss Ankle-strap Wedgie" in the mens magazine he was editing at the time because it would have essentially been the entire content of the magazine minus tits and advertisement [the REAL T&A folks]. He was worried at the time what the publishers would have thought and then realized later that the publishers [the mob?] NEVER read the damned thing. Of course this may all be revisionist bullshit as to reasons but I believe the regret was genuine.
Well this has gone on way to long and REALLY needs a re-write but the gist is there - in between the Fitzgeald dashes and the badly placed parenthetical remarks. Just found out one of our guys on my crew went AWOL so I will be climbing around on a roof all day. Don't expect much of a response until I recover.
- Barney
ps. Spoke with the King of the Flying Monkey Brigade [FMB's] yesterday by telephonic device. He kindly answered my James Blish question at length. I taped it and hope to transcribe it on the weekend. Sooner if I get a rain day.
Play nice - and wear sunblock. - B.
Robert Urich, an Emmy-winning actor best known for his starring roles in "Soap" and "Spenser: For Hire," has died after battling cancer. He was 55.
Thank you Mr. Urich
In other local news the spring Library sale starts April 20th
If I could just cast my own vote for having, say, fifty messages read on the screen at a time?
Mine is the most selfish of reasons: I read and post, for the most part, in the wee wee hours
("... I sit alone and think of you ...")
after the posting day is done and before it begins. It would just aid my reading and posting greatly were the screen, which I usually RELOAD when I get home from work, a little more capacious.
Darryl,
Maybe it was too obvious to everyone else so I'm the sucker to step into the freeway...African Queen was color...in spite of what your tv screen informed you.
I was going to toss in Pleasantville too - no one is a bigger fan - except that not only was it essentially a color movie but it's the first movie ABOUT being a color movie. So it stayed out of the category.
I mentioned Ox-Bow earlier as well. Never saw it before and it really did captivate me. I heard Eastwood refer to it as the movie that had the most effect on him (there ARE some echoes of it in Unforgiven). Historically important but at the time of its release it was not only held from distribution for two years because of WWII - considered the wrong time for such an intense, in-your-face message - but subsequently failed in the box office. They were about 25 years too early when the cynical, anti-hero wave of movies hit the scene in the late 60's.
Cindy,
From Hell had the same problem with ceaseless camera swishing. I haven't seen Panic Room but in the case of the former, even though you could understand what the director was trying to achieve it was more annoying than effective. Dizzying camera movements is one of those tricks that really has to be offset by another effect to make it work or it just gets outright monotonous.
I'm not big on Bergman personally but yours is an excellent choice - Seventh Seal - so far as really using b&w to its full advantage. It looks gorgeous.
Rob,
On your posting on 2001, and the structure of the Discovery, I sure you know that the model actually had rings and stringers to stiffen the spine of the ship, but Kubrick had them cut off. He was right. They were just plain ugly and cluttered up the beautifully skeletal look of the ship.
Peter,
Thanks for the warning.
Rick,
25 works fine for me. I don't have to wait 1/2 an hour for the whole page to load. I say keep the 25 per page structure.
Zoe Rose,
Yes, the last person to post on A BOY AND HIS DOG got an answer, including one from Unca Harlan himself. My take on the story is that Vick is quite human, and that the things that live in the pits are the major radiation mutants. Formerly human, perhaps, but no longer.
Blood is telepathic because military dogs were altered to communicate that way with their trainers. Blood was descended from those specially bred dogs. Blood was also intended to be Vick's professor of the humanities. Blood was the articulate, civilized character. Vick was just learning. In a taped reading of BOY AND HIS DOG, Harlan, when speaking as Blood, made the dog sound like Ronald Coleman, whose voice always sounded eminently civilized. Check out Coleman's movies sometime. TALE OF TWO CITIES, PRISONER OF ZENDA, MAN IN THE IRON MASK are good examples.
The killing of women didn't happen all the time. Read the story again. Not everyone in the post-apocalyptic world was psycho. Vick described a woman who he raped, but left alive, but bound up. He went by later to see if she got loose. Just a small fragment of civilized behavior.
And remember the most important line in the story: "You didn't eat the meat".
Little Washu,
Have yourself a wonderful summer. Just remember the sun screen. I know what I'm talking about.
On the local news front, the Tattered Cover book store won a legal victory for the right to privacy a week or two ago. The cops wanted to pull the purchase records of a customer who was running a meth lab. This was not necessary for the case, it seems they've got the bastard cold. This was just another example of the authorities prying too far into everybody's lives. The Denver Police had files on 3,200 people and organizations they considered potential spies and terrorists, including the Quakers. THE QUAKERS, for chrissakes!
So, kudos for the Tattered Cover. I love that place.
Chuck
Cindy,
I'd still say you should check out Panic Room. Some people really like it. I HATE HATE HATE movies which use endless camera movements for little or no reason but other people enjoy that quite a bit. And Fincher seems to really connect for certain people, just not for me. Although after Seven and even after The Game, I expected much more from him than he's delivered so far. But hell, he's young.
BLACK AND WHITE:
Best use of black and white? Hmm, impossible to answer but I'll toss The Seventh Seal out as a suggestion and for a specific reason.
Sure, the b&w essential to the dream-like quality of the narrative and heightens the existential angst in the film. And the b&w is needed to take the edge off a film that, in color, might have seemed too heavy-handed and unsubtle.
But the real reason that black and white is so perfect in The Seventh Seal is Max von Sydow. And not just him but his face. Not his face really but his skull too.
He has the most fascinating face and the most fascinating skull I've ever seen. Von Sydow wasn't even 30 years old when the film was made but he carries an ageless wisdom etched in his weather-worn features. And that magnificent oblong skull, tiered like a wedding cake. You can't help but marvel at it. This man is Antonius Bloch. This man is a knight returning from the Crusades. This man is every man, wondering whether he is alone in the world, desperate for some connection to the divine.
And that magnificent face, that gorgeous skull just wouldn't look the same in color.
In b&w, you can freeze frame a close up of him and just stare at it for an hour, never losing interest.
Not that I've done anything creepy like that...
CHRIS L>
GOD BLESS YOU!
(yes, I know, you didn't sneeze)
Thank you for saving me the expense and time wasted in The Panic Room. I used to get pissed off just watching the credits on HOMICIDE. I loved the show but it was a fucking CHORE to get past the distracting camera gyrations. To see a film that has a flawed plot AND the ability to make you want to vomit is the worst sort of insult.
For future reference we'll have to see who directed it to know where NOT to step in the barnyard.
Thanks again, buddy I owe ya,
Cindy
C23: 42 is plenty random - I'm just indulging in a little Douglas Adams tom-foolery.
Hey Jay,
I understand why you were so upset. You're a good guy and your heart couldn't be more perfectly placed.
Trust me on this though.. kids are damned resilient. If you just say, " Huh? What? I didn't see it." Odds are they'd forget about it in under three minutes.
Cindy
<
Regarding black & white, and imaginative uses thereof, how about Pleasantville?
Casablanca (no-brainer), Citizen Kane (even less of a brainer), The Ox-Bow Incident (actually tracked down an old paperback after I saw the movie on a sick day), African Queen, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (easily and by far the best John Wayne movie), Lilies of the Fields (yeah, yeah, I'm a sentimental fool), Destry Rides Again (EXTRAORDINARILY funny film), too many more to mention.
On a crowing note, I recently picked up a Lettered edition of Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed for $150. Turned 40 two weeks ago. Books are my mid-life crisis, to the great relief of my wife.
Back to lurkdom. Continue to play nice.
Xanadu~ I would have said 23, but that would have been counter-productive. And silly. What's the next most random number? 50 doesn't seem nearly Erisian enough.
-- I just spent the last half hour flipping through my tattered copy of the Principia Discordia looking for a pithy quote and I have nothing to show for it. Somehow, that's oddly appropriate.--
Dear Harlan.
A brief comment on your massive movie list: Thank you for mentioning The Thin Man series. I wish I knew who the geniuses are at the studios who decide what films do or do not end up on DVD because when it comes to those films...I'm still waiting!
Thanks!
Tony
I ain't putting down Cavalier or any girlie mag. It was an outlet for BOTH Steve and Harlan--when no one else would take them. I'm just commenting on how weird it would be, for me, a woman.. looking at girlie pics to get to Harlan.
Heh..
Heard from Ellen Datlow (emailed her cos I wanted to confirm email addy, that's all). Read some of her posts on Event Horizon. Smart lady. Will see if I can get her interested in something.
Job's okay. My boss is a shit disturber--even with his corporate bosses. Will see how it turns out and let you know.
Heather
Lynn: 42 - hmmm, that doesn't seem so completely random. But then again, you couldn't possibly know the answer to the universe now, could you...
Yeah - random - I get it...
True true. But Roger didn't love it, just liked it.
And Roeper liked it too which is never a good sign.
Fincher has, IMHO, turned out to be a staggering disappointment, at least during this stage of his career. Seven was wonderful. The Game was mediocre but had some brilliant moments. Fight Club featured a great first act which swiftly degenerated into banality and now Panic Room which is just a plain old boring story from start to finish.
PANIC ROOM
But...but Chris...ROGER liked it!
PANIC ROOM:
I'm not interestedin a debate, only to vent. But which one of you sons of bitch bastard scumbags actually said "Run, don't walk, to see Panic Room."
What a steaming pile of shit!
The script is a titanic achievement in the field of stupidity but that pales in comparison to the single most annoying camera I have ever seen. My God, what obnoxious, self-conscious camera work. It's the only movie I've ever seen where I was rooting for someone to shoot the cameraperson. What a disgusting display.
Scene after scene is utterly implausible. The characters are dreadful. It's not completely hopeless - Forrest Whitaker delivers a solid performance which lends some credence to the asinine story and there are a couple competent scenes. I only wish I had known ahead of time how bad everything else would be. I would have brought a book.
I came very close to walking out of the theater especially with that goddamn camera gliding all over the place for no reason in the early scenes. Ugh. Camera tricks don't make you a great director!
So, anyway, I didn't like it.
I vote for 42 messages per screen. Just to be random.
L.
Adding a vote for more messages per page. 50 would be good.
--Lurk
Rick: Saw and understood your changing email address thing - it works for me - I can safely ignore all the rick@wyatt.com stuff... ;)
25 posts works for me, but a user-definable grouping works too. But that would require a cookie and if you're going to do that, you might just add a "posts since your last visit" concept with say, a 100 post upper limit... (I say all this knowing exactly squat about how easy/difficult it would be to set such a monstrosity up - it's just thinking out loud)
And yes, our exchange was great fun. You're right, it might have sparked something in this forum, too, but the topic was several days cold when I managed to get back to you. (Feel free to post it in some other applicable section of Webderland sans personal info, if you wish. It's alright by me.)
Rick
Send the file to me at JosephFinn@yahoo.com and I'll be happy to print it out. I have a very good printer.
Regards,
Joseph
Jay, tangentially, re: signs-- I was taking a different route to the gym the other day, driving through a rather crapulent section of Binghamton. In front of this run-down looking house was a spray-painted sign nailed to the porch, literally 3'x5', that said "DRUGS FOR SALE--FIRST DOOR LEFT." I laughed out loud. Whoa, those drug dealers are freakin' *advertising* now?
Then, I was listening to the radio and heard that the landlord of the building put the sign up. Apparently he was trying to evict this flagrant dealer from his property but it was taking a long time, and the cops were not effective at busting this guy. Enraged, he put up the sign to shame the guy into moving out. It's been torn down several times but he always puts it back up. Not sure what I think of it, but it did make me laugh (ruefully).
Bermanator
Ya know, when this whole colorization hullabaloo first started up, I half expected someone to colorize the beginning and end of Wizard of Oz. Now that would have been extremely silly, but I still couldn't help expecting it, even if just in the deep dark corners of my mind where irony and mushrooms grow aplenty.
---Peter
Justin: You could still rent the colorized version and adjust the settings on your TV to B&W. I've done it--it works.
Michael: Hey Boss, you want I should, eh, straighten a few people out? Send a message? Just say the woid and it's taken care of.
J
p.s. My video store had a copy of MALTESE FALCON, but it was, *yecch*, the COLORIZED version. It's Blockbuster, what can I expect? I'll see if I can sell some crack and pick up the video at Borders or something. I really wanna see it.
You MUST buy his book HOW TO TALK DIRTY AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE, however. That's a necessity for intelligent living on this planet (and maybe a few others).
RICK: I'd like to see more posts displayed--I understand why you limited them, but 25 at once doesn't quite cut it. 50 would work a little better, I think.
RE LENNY BRUCE: The thing about Bruce is, his records aren't always laugh-out-loud, knock-'em-dead pieces of hilarity--many of them were recorded in his later years, when he was stressed out about his court problems, and decidedly more serious as a result. It's a shame there aren't more live tapes from the late '50s, when he was really slaying the audiences. (And I'm not saying that the available CDs aren't funny. They are, but some are funnier than others--you just have to know what to expect. If you're a Bruce neophyte, I would NOT start with THE BERKELEY CONCERT, which is a little too dry for my tastes, though Lenny is incisive as always.)
Benjamin de Washu,
"Okay, I'm not kissing up anymore".
Fer godsake, man - don't stop now!
...Bermuda, eh? You lucky Fucker: What college breaks this early, anyway? And just when we're getting to know each other.
As for The Thing, I might've supported your Thumbs Up if characters were better written. But if I care nothing about who gets nailed I care little about the movie.
Locus is reporting that Damon Knight died last night.
Konnichi wa, folks!
I'm going to be packing up my computer for storage tomorrow morning and leaving my room here in college to head home for Bermuda. The beginning of summer is a wonderful time, with one or two gray hairs in the mix...not that it compares to Christmas in holiday stress, of course.
So, you won't be seeing me for a little while, just to let you guys know.
JON STOVER: Despite Harlan's own feelings, I still believe Carpenter's THE THING was awesome. Old-fashioned balls-to-the-wall scare-o-rama...don't you think? The first scene with the dog-thing in the huskey cell was horrific. The inhuman squealing, howling, and screeching...the lighting was perfect, the expressions on the men's faces...perfect. Stuff of nightmares.
ROB: Sorry about the touchy welcoming committee, Rob. It's good to see you again regardless. Okay, I'm not kissing up anymore.
See you again in a few days, gang…
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
P.S. One final question: I've heard various rumours that David Lynch was attached to Harlan's version of I, ROBOT at one point. Is this true, perchance?
Rick:
Alas, my mind was still seething from a near brush with computer-terminal termination at the hands of a maladroit miscreant intent upon wreaking havoc on an unsuspecting populace with his code for digital masturbation. My apologies for the lapse in linguistic perfection.
Ah hell, who am I kidding? I just plain fucked up.
Will do better in the future.
---Peter
Rick~ No problem. When does he want it?
L.
REQUEST - Harlan asked for a color printout of the "Gutenberg in a Flying Saucer" Interview at http://harlanellison.com/interview.htm - and I only have a laser in my house. Could one of you Webderlanders that has access to a decent color printer run off a copy and either shoot it to Harlan or contact me for mailing information?
Forrester - it's nostalgia - it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It's just a thing.
Brian, Peter, et. al - Harlan has mentioned, politely, that the use of the phrase "off of" is making him fucking nutso. So let's start going with the not-nearly-as-sussurant but gramatically-correct "off."
Jon Stover- I admit it, yes, I'm taking the Sci-Fi course at Duluth. You got me. :) It's a requirement that we post some questions on this board and see if we get any answers. It's that highly regarded a place!!
On a personal note, though, I actually LIKED this movie AND this assignment, so... see, me checking back isn't required, so at least I'm doing some followup, right?
Good guess. Did the last person to post about "Boy and his Dog" get answers?
--Zoe Rose
"But to be fair actors are often hyper-emotional anyway"
Sigh.
Look, I am, as I have said before, an actor. I am not hyper-emotional, nor do I think myself the center of the universe, nor am I flighty, nor overly vain, nor sexually promiscuous, nor stupid enough to think that I am the only part of the performance process that matters. I approach my work not only with reverence, but with a great deal of logical craftsmanship, and frankly, I work my butt off to provide the audience with the best performance for their money. I know literally hundreds of actors, both locally and nationally, famous and obscure, and only about 1% fall into that "actors are jerks" category which I find so distressing when I hear it from people I consider to be intelligent.
I am also half Jewish. I am neither cheap nor venal.
I am also half Mexican. My English is just fine. I am not lazy, nor am I a gang member or a drug dealer.
Can we please put the stereotypes aside? Here, if not everywhere?
Thank you,
Michael
Bag-O-Scott: I was just emailed a virus in the form of returned email (attachment) from me to you. Since I never emailed ya, I'm guessing someone grabbed our email addresses off of the board and spoofed a pacbell mailer daemon (actually, it was a little sillier than that, the email was returned by postmaster@pacbell.net, which doesn't seem kosher to me.) Be wary.
This goes to the rest, as well. If you get an email claiming to be a returned message, and the message is in the form of an attachment, delete, run virus scan, fumigate, call in the hazmat team, and do whatever else you deem necessary to safeguard your system.
Remember to always practice safe data transfer. Let us stop the proliferation of unnecessary virii.
---Peter
Jay~ RE: The double-edge sword of the First Amendment. Something tells me that you won't be able to reason with such a person, and that fighting fire with fire won't garner anything but a soundbyte on the five o'clock news.
If I were you, I'd let it be, unless you really want to be on Channel Five At Five.
L.
Along my usual early morning route taking my fiance to work and her children to school, I have found myself having to take a roundabout way instead of the direct A-to-B straight line.
Along this route, a small business owner has erected a small billboard in their front yard. I don't really have an issue with the subject matter. It's a stern, fire-and-brimstone Pro-Life (or Anti-Abortion) series of signs about 3 feet by 4 feet, with images or words on both sides for traffic to see.
Again, I really don't care about the politics. Its a big debate that I can only make my own decisions about and, frankly, it serves to cloud the real issue I have with the signs.
The signs rotate daily. There are maybe a half dozen messages that are put up on the front lawn. The content is the normal rhetoric. But there is one poster - that of a 3x4 aborted second trimester baby.
Now I'm a big boy. I can deal with it. My concern are the 4-year old and 9-year old that are revolted by it. A lot of kids go by there every day.
But like I said, I changed my route. Now, here's my first impression - I don't want to go to the cops to forcd them to take it down. I don't want to argue about the issue. I would like to make a six-foot photo of a bombing victim, print it out and put it on their lawn. I want to put autopsy pictures in their first floor window. Whatever the cause, if it gave a 4-year old girl nightmares, I'd say its a pretty bad way of fighting for it.
Anyone think I'm being impulsive or overly outraged by this?
>Rick Wyatt
>- Monday, April 15 2002 8:1:42
>"Gutenberg in a Flying Saucer," referenced in a few places on recent posts can be found at: >http://harlanellison.com/interview.htm
It's been a while since I read that one, too. I had to take a look to understand the relevance.
>Thank you guys for taking me back to a time I was playing back phone interviews with Harlan on a little tape >player in a 3 bedroom apartment in Atlanta.
Okay, I'll bite - was that a good thing or a bad thing?
>And has anyone noticed that I post as webmaster when I'm talking about site stuff or bringing out the can of >whoop-ass but as my regular e-mail when I'm arguing or jawing? Does this make sense or am I being anal or >hubritic?
It makes sense. Sometimes you're Rick and sometimes you're webmaster. Sometimes you're Lamont and sometimes The Shadow. If that seperation works for you, and you need to wear a different hat on occasion, so be it. Relax.
Now, if you were acting like the late Phil Hartmann's Anal Retentive Chef, that would be different. "Yesterday, we standardized all the toolbars in every application, grouped by function, then alphabetically. In order for these applications to work properly, we need to install the upgrade for the operating system, don't we? So, we insert the CD - oh, my, there are so many smudges and fingerprints on the jewel case. Well, I'm just going to have to clean that up first with our cleaning cloths and our special cleaning solution..."
>Rob and Washu: Dammit, I already rented the steel cage for your match...the deposit on those things is a killer.
Since we're all so well behaved, aren't you getting volume discount rates by now?
Rick
"Dammit, I already rented the steel cage for your match...the deposit on those things is a killer. "
(L) I'm allll broken up.
Washu,
"I'm glad as hell you stepped forth first before we REALLY turned into a couple of hyenas"
...well, embarrassment is a good inducer. And there I thought I was bringing Victimization to an art.
Damon Knight 1922-2002. This is not a good year.
Re Hoffman being funny as Bruce. Wanna hear bad? The first time I'd ever heard Lenny Bruce, beyond a short bit about airplane glue that the local radio station used to play, was seeing his one and only performance film. It was a shitty print with awful sound... and filmed in the days when his act was devoted to going over his court experiences. _Not_ fun. Took me a long time to want to listen to a different recording.
As for _All That Jazz_, it came out when I was in high school, and (oddly enough) taking a theatre course. The exchange between two chorus girls _killed_ me:
"Fuck him, he never picks me."
"Honey, I _did_ fuck him, and he never picks me, either."
"Gutenberg in a Flying Saucer," referenced in a few places on recent posts can be found at:
http://harlanellison.com/interview.htm
I should note that the interview is 2 years older than my dog. Thank you guys for taking me back to a time I was playing back phoone interviews with Harlan on a little tape player in a 3 bedroom apartment in Atlanta.
Question: Is the 25 messages shown at once enough or are you finding yourself wanting more? Or more control over how much is shown?
And has anyone noticed that I post as webmaster when I'm talking about site stuff or bringing out the can of whoop-ass but as my regular e-mail when I'm arguing or jawing? Does this make sense or am I being anal or hubritic?
Rob and Washu: Dammit, I already rented the steel cage for your match...the deposit on those things is a killer.
Xanadu: Enjoyed our private exchange - would have been fun to have had it here, I bet some interesting viewpoints would have emerged. Keep on going like you're going...
>. Books have no value. If you don't believe me ask your neighbor. Pay for books? Not in this intellectual climate<
Oh, I dunno. My father-in-law makes about 30K a year selling old books on the Internet, and this is a side venture to his day job.
Judging from the ongoing success of Borders, Barnes and Noble, and Amazon.com, people are buying books like they've always bought books.
Barney, I bet you run across some great books from your unwitting customers! The dumbest move I made was when, for no apparent reason, I was thinning my book collection and took the books to the local used book dealer. I had a first edition, first printing, hb, of George R.R. Martin's "A Game of Thrones" in pristine condition, and I do mean pristine. I had no idea of its value (at the time) and nevermind what he paid me. Let's just say a few months later when I learned my error, I... oh nevermind, I still get depressed. In with those books was a copy of Harry Crews', Childhood, Biography of a Place, first edition & printing, with dj, in VG+ condition. The guy didn't even want to offer a penny for it. He wanted me to give it to him so he could donate to the local jail. Needless to say I kept that book and never stepped foot in his store since.
ROB: Apology accepted, with my own faults brought to light as well. I was having a horrible night, for whatever reason, and I posted the last two messages in a fit of dementia around 3:00 A.M.
So, Rob, I'm glad as hell you stepped forth first before we REALLY turned into a couple of hyenas. It's something I should have done earlier. Thanks. I mean that.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Zoe Rose: You're not, by any chance, taking the science fiction and fantasy college course at Duluth, are you? Duluth, Minnesota sets off some sort of memory firing from previous board posts by Boy and His Dog questioners.
Jon
Jim: Hmm...the time spanned by *Don Quixote*, *Tom Jones* and *The Pickwick Papers* is a mighty big one to categorize as "early novels." The two parts of Quixote appear in 1605 and 1615; Jones shows up in 1749; Pickwick shows up around 1837. I figure you're dating early novels as being before the Upper Canada rebellion, which is pretty cool, and Canada thanks you. For some reason, the dates for Quixote always jar me -- they always seem too early, probably because the novel isn't constructed as being co-existent with Shakespeare in most simplified literary timelines.
As to novels being longer way back when -- I think there's at least some astronomical thing going on with what novels continue to be seen as representative centuries after their appearance. Yeah, I'm joking, but only just. The bigger they are, the easier they are to see at this great distance. But Daniel DeFoe's novels aren't Jones-sized whoppers. Nor are Vathek, Orinookoo (sp.) or a wide variety of other major 18th and 19th century works. Jane Austen wasn't trying to crush everyone. And the father of giant novels, Samuel Richardson, took flack from contemporaries for his wordiness as well as for his moral compass. I'm not sure that any era gets to win the wordiness crown, but I would think it would make a keen and useful piece of arcana to study novel lengths in various eras.
I think the early 20th-century dips who constructed the 'mainline' of the novel as being realistic and, usually, cyclopean have a lot to answer for when it comes to this 'size matters' thing. They didn't much like humour either...or fantasy in its broadest sense.
Cheers,
Jon
BRIAN, JIM: I dunno. In a couple of the monologues that Hoffman does, he DOES sound rather like Lenny--and in fact has the timing pretty down. Listen to Lenny's record BUSTED! and you'll hear the similarities.
Now I know I didn't like dissecting movies, but let me indulge for a moment to make some points.
I think the sense of it just being Lenny's world, with no one else really having any effect, is intentional; it's Fosse's statement on a performer, a voice so far ahead of the world that the world just couldn't catch up.
Also, you have to remember that the Lenny put forth on the screen by Fosse, screenwriter Julian Barry, and Hoffman is not Lenny Bruce-as-history; it is an idealized Lenny-put-on-stage; it is a Lenny-as-character. This may be due to the fact that it is very closely lifted from Barry's stage play of the same name. Also, it's likely because Fosse injected a lot of his OWN life into that of Lenny's--the lesbian scene being the biggest of these inserts. That was all Fosse, and came from his own life..
(An interesting trivia note: The faceless interviewer in the film is Fosse, and there's a lot of ad-lib in those interview segments, as well as a lot of "method directing"--at one point, Fosse was setting up the scene and started asking Valerie Perrine wholly different questions, questions about herself. This graduated to a near-interrogation and a haranguing after which Fosse, as soon as he had Perrine breaking down in tears, ordered that the scene be filmed.)
And Brian: Regarding ALL THAT JAZZ (one of my three or four absolute favorite movies) and the fact that you hate musicals: "What's the matter? Don't you LIKE musical comedy?"
Li'l Washu:
"Please don't mistake an honest (and yes, unrefined) burst of genuine anger as wannabe punk posturing".
Actually, on this point I'm totally at fault. Taking quick breaks from working and bleary-eyed from a computer juggling act I'm speed reading - more accurately, glancing at - posts w/o doing so properly. I actually misread your line which, in fact, had urged not to take you as a punk wannabe. The one active part of my brain took it in as your adopting the title. That I gotta 'poligize for. It was haphazard stupidity on my part. And I said I thought your original "be nice to negroes" comment was dumb, not YOU. I got in your face because I wanted to prod you for the intelligent response I knew you were capable of. That's why I said in my original post I knew you weren't trying to be a jerk.
Yeah, sorry: that was really lame and I managed to embarrass myself. I shot myself in the foot with a .44 Magnum and I have little more than used toilet paper as a bandage...I don't think King, Malcolm X or even Rosa Parks would've wanted me speaking for them. You've posted many intelligent comments so pay no attention to me. I'm thoroughly contrite for the overbearing tone and error.
But, hey, at least this provides some fine third-act drama for the site...whether needed or not.
BRIAN: Just caught your post on LENNY. I wasn't crazy about Hoffman's performance, either, and my problem with it was very basic: Hoffman wasn't FUNNY. Here's a guy who's considered one of the greatest comedians of the modern age, but you'd never know that watching this movie. All in all, an interesting take on Bruce, but hardly definitive. The great Lenny Bruce bioflick has yet to be produced.
Can I just say I LOVE how we all dove wholeheartedly into the computers-vs.-older technology discussion, despite Harlan's warning? No craven sycophants, we. (Though I think he was more concerned about acrimony raising its head than anything else.)
Huh. I had no idea that Rick had interviewed Harlan. That's the cool thing about this website: just when you think you've gotten the lay of the house, you lean on a bust, and *WHOOSH*--a library wall pivots, and there's another hidden room to explore. Nice, nice, very nice.
Harlan raised some very interesting points about computers, and how they've effected prose writing in the past decade or so. I'm not sure if I agree that today's novels are any more elephantine than yesterday's--early novels, like TOM JONES, THE PICKWICK PAPERS and DON QUIXOTE, were almost exclusively gargantuan--but his point about the too-great ease of today's word processing software is very well taken.
I want to state, for the record, that I don't think personal computers are evil and are turning our collective brains to guava dip. They are damn-near indispensible in proofing and editing, and, as many here have testified, they have enabled people unhappy with manual typewriters and longhand to write credible and sustained prose. I own a couple of the things, myself, and hey, I'm writing on one RIGHT NOW.
But I DO think that the act of writing with a computer is inherently different than the other ways, and I'm not sure it's all for the better. I've already pointed out the radiated light/reflected light dichotomy, so there's no need to rehash that. The other major trait of the PC is, as Harlan noted, the ability to rearrange and delete completed work seemingly at will. Is such unlimited power in the hands of a writer always good? Shouldn't there be a certain amount of physical sweat in the act of creation?
The thing that concerns me about the widespread use of PCs is how it affects what I love most about reading prose, and fiction in particular: The flow of words; the cadence; the RHYTHM. I'm a slave to the riddim, mon. Yes, erudition dazzles me, high concepts stimulate me, and well-designed plots impress the livin' bejeezus out of me. But if the whole thing doesn't MOVE, doesn't sweep me along on the burbling stream of its words, then it's just typing (or whatever). It's not alive, not really, and I end up thinking, "Well. That was...OK" And that's not why I read. If I wanted something just "Ok", then I'd watch sitcoms on TV.
And that's the possible danger of using computers to write. If you're constantly going back, and deleting this, and moving that, and tweaking obsessively in the midst of composing, then there's a good possiblility that the flow will be shot to hell. So even if the individual parts have been glossed to a fine sheen, the whole damned contraption may lumber along like some spavined monstrosity cobbled together in a junkyard. And that just sucks.
Of course, this is just purely speculative on my part. I haven't read enough contemporary fiction to say if this is really a widespread problem (I'm still catching up with stuff written a century ago). Has there been a overall change in the quality of prose in the last fifteen years? Harlan claims he can tell if a book's been written manually or electronically, so I guess things HAVE changed somewhat. I honestly don't know.
Damn. Look how I got sidetracked. I was gonna write about that wonderful film THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE, and a disturbing article I read in the latest issue of WIRED, and the new book about Charles Mingus. Maybe tomorrow.
(In the spirit of Full Disclosure: I did, in fact, go back and tinker with this post a little bit before sending it. But not TOO much...)
A few months back, the topic of Lenny Bruce came up. Tonight on the Sundance channel, they ran Bob Fosse's film _Lenny_, starring Dustin Hoffman. Never saw it until tonight.
I kept thinking of _Raging Bull_, and how Scorcese seemed to get a lot of attention for stuff that Fosse did here-- for example, Fosse gets the scrungy atmosphere of strip clubs note-perfect. There are elements of Fosse's editing style that got really big play in _All That Jazz_ (a film I really love, because I hate musicals), and they work pretty well here.
But there are two things that struck me as really wrong about the movie. The first is that it seemed to present Lenny Bruce as being, well, completely alone in what he was doing, apart from Honey; the movie doesn't try to tie him into the rest of the culture. One scene, he's playing in a strip club; the next, to young college kids. Beyond that, it's entirely about Lenny and Honey; and one wishes they'd covered a bit more of Bruce's life outside of that. One doesn't get much of a sense of the man's intelligence, his awareness of the world, or even a sense of a nightclub comic discovering new strengths.
The other is Dustin Hoffman. He's a terrific actor, and there are scenes which he plays to heartbreaking effect. There's one five-minute monologue played in a single, uninterrupted take. It's shot from a camera high up in the balcony of the club. And Hoffman-as-Lenny is geezed up on smack. So he performs a monologue that's as heartbreaking as it is incoherent. Knowing Harlan's friendship with the man, I also thought of his account of having seen Charley Parker live... but the Bird was doped up, and he sounded horrible, and here was the same spectacle with Lenny Bruce.
But the problem is that at no point could I see Hoffman and think "Lenny Bruce." They're just too dissimilar. Hoffman doesn't look like Lenny Bruce, which usually isn't a problem, but Hoffman himself is so distinctive-looking that one has a hard time seeing him as anyone but Dustin Hoffman. He doesn't _sound_ like Bruce at all-- he doesn't seem to have that slightly nasal inflection Lenny Bruce had-- he just sounds like Dustin Hoffman doing standup.
ROB: All right. Before we begin bashing each other's brains out, my thoughts on the Oscars:
Yes, in that post one or two archives ago I did jump the gun, A LOT. I was angry at the rather convenient coincidence that Denzel and Halle received the Awards after Mr. Poiter received his own award so many years after his own Oscar. It was a quickie, shallow post, and it was wrong. Now...you seem to be miffed off at me because you seem to believe that I don't think the folks who received the Oscars don't deserve them. Rob, I never even MENTIONED the films Halle and Denzel starred in in my Academy Award post. I was reacting to what I thought was another display of Hollywood vanity, self-congratulatory behaviour and truckloads of Tom Cruise's insufferable grin.
But let's work down the list: So far, I haven't yet insulted you IN ANY WAY. If you are willing to disprove this, I'm definitely not stopping you. Let's see. You've called me a jerk, a punk, a wannabe, not to mention inane and dumb. Did I miss anything?
I reacted to your initial post negatively because if anything you seemed to be quite hostile in tone, despite your 'good intents'. Ex:
"Incidentally, Ben, as I scrolled back yesterday I noted a post I believe YOU’D submitted when you were all discussing the Oscars. To delight us all you referred to it as "Be Nice To Negroes Night"; that pissed me off because it simply wasn’t accurate."
Rob, newsflash. 'YOU'D' is the equivalent of pointing a finger right across cyberspace, out of the monitor screen, and directly between the eyes.
"I wonder if you know what you SHOULD be "angry" about."
Why are you trying so hard to give me a reason now?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Rob~ He who makes vast generalizations (and I quote, "But to be fair actors are often hyper-emotional anyway;") should not be casting aspersions.
L.
Jim,
...so those lobs were yours, eh? In the name of Barsoom, one of them crystal towers was my pricy solarium, dammit. And the Martian Oompa-Loompas had just finished it. My insurance people will be knocking at your door upon the next passing of Phobos, y'lunatic.
Washu the Wannabe,
I stand corrected...you were being a jerk. Punk out all you like (I wonder if you know what you SHOULD be "angry" about), it don't mitigate a thing: your statement was erroneous. Those who were up there were there because they deserved to be.
This was taking your inane phrase at face value. Now you have an opportunity to qualify your argument. Tell me what I'm missing. (To give this exchange some bearing, the information I used in my own reactions to the event came from what I know about Poitier: the days he had to put up with in his early career - I read a lot about that time - and the singular achievement he made in the face of so much adversity. He represents something damn significant. And he is largely the reason many of the black actors - some of extraordinary talent - were able to be at the event that night. That is why so much of the evening made some sense. Now, if you were missing any of this your "anger" was pretty meaningless - leaving your original quip a simple, dumb remark).
One last note:
"By no means were you trying to be a jerk..."
Rob, to be frank, you were doing an awfully good job of insinuating it. Whether you meant to or not, I don't know.
Delurking for a brief comment.
David, you make me laugh. I see, in scrolling through the current messages and archives, how you like to constantly feel compelled to remind people that you are a real writer. Recently, you went on about your forthcoming book and the ease of cut&paste. In such stark contrast to the Q&A between Mr. Wyatt and Mr. Ellison on that very topic in the "Webderland HE Interview - Gutenberg in a Flying Saucer," particularly Mr. Ellison's response to this question by Mr. Wyatt:
RW: "Well, also, one uses the level of technology that is appropriate. The main advantage of having a computer is to be able to go back and change stuff or to re-arrange your paragraphs, which is, from what I've heard, just not your style."
Read his response. You really must lighten up on the others, Dave. Thank you.
ROB: I wasn't trying to delight anyone. Please don't mistake an honest (and yes, unrefined) burst of genuine anger as wannabe punk posturing.
I'm going to rest first, and then answer you adequately in the morning.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
LONEGUNGIRL: Ah, IT'S ALWAYS FAIR WEATHER. Fun flick. Though it has a more serious storyline, and is perhaps the most introspective of the Kelly musicals, it's comparable in my eyes to TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALL GAME--both are enjoyable second efforts (when compared to movies like THE PIRATE, as well as the genius turns of SINGIN' IN THE RAIN and AN AMERICAN IN PARIS).
HEATHER: It's as Joseph said. Ellen is, in my opinion, the best sf/f editor out there right now--as she has always had less to start from, yet still puts out a body of amazing work (OMNI, OMNIONLINE, EVENT HORIZON, SciFiction.com, as well as her anthologies with and without Terri Windling). Her effforts never had the "push" behind them that the more established mags and anthologies did, but there's not a bad bit in the lot.
Also, don't be so quick to put down CAVALIER--it had work by Vaughan Bode, Robert Crumb, King, Mickey Spillane, Hunter S. Thompson--and, from what I can tell, had some very good profiles and interviews in't.
Plus, remember that our own Patron Author edited Rogue, Adam, and Knight Magazines--"girlie mags" ain't all trash.
(Though I DID just cancel my free subscription to PLAYBOY--they just don't have the good articles they used to ...)
LYNN: I like it. It's part of the character of the game, and seems all for a good cause, so yes; Sink the Bismarck! and Raise the Babe's Piano!
Hello, all-
What a free-lance kinda place. I like it! I admit it took me awhile to realize how helter-skelter it really was but in any case, a great page. Now on to the content of this comment...
Just watched "A Boy and His Dog" and man... I'm still creeped out! Still thinking about it, will probably continue thinking about it... but a few questions come to mind and I was wondering if any of you out there had any suggestions, answers, or retorts.
First of all - "Down Under". What the hell? Is it supposed to be the controlled area that COULD be so much better than whatever 'up top' is? Meaning, maybe if they controlled everything, no more world war or whatever goes on up above will happen anymore? Obviously this doesn't work, because look at how screwed up "down under" is. So they have to steal a 'real man' from up above in order to fertilize the women, I got that. WHY doesn't their own plumbing work? Why is every male sterile, if that is indeed the problem? They're obviously somewhat technologically blessed, what with their nifty little way of getting Vik to produce for them and all. Also- is "down under" supposed to be mocking America, period? Just kind of thought of that, but it makes sense, especially with all the 'american' things they seemed to be doing, and how they all looked.
Second - are the "screamers" mutants from the bombs going off? That's what it seemed like to me but I couldn't be really sure. And if that's so, does that mean that Vik is just KIND of a mutant, or whatever? I mean, normal folk (at least, normal in today's society) can't talk to/understand dogs, how'd that happen? Vik just says they think alike, and that's why they can talk. We also know that Blood is a police dog, right, because they said something about that early on? And apparently other people have these communications with their dogs too?
Third and lastly, promise, I just want to know what the deal is with the idea that raping and killing all the women nearby would be a GOOD thing? I mean, people have got to realize that population would zero out eventually, right? But the way it seems 'above ground' is that bands of boys/men go around, finding a way to get laid and then killing that method off. I just don't get that. How are they all still around?!
Well, forgive me if any of this seems elementary - I look forward to getting any answers!
--Zoe Rose
Heather--
Art of Darkness was THE book about King at its time (from what I've about it, anyway, it was already several years old when I began reading King). Still is one of the best.
And about King's early stories in girlie mags, it wasn't uncommon for writers to publish in them. They were open to the stories and they paid so that one could pay the bills.
Oh, yeah, one more thing...the name's Bill, not Jim. But you spelled Gauthier right. THAT's always a plus.
Bill
Ok, I really wouldn't do that. But I might be the guy who accidentally knocks them over.
And GREAT EXPECTATIONS! Jumpin' J.C., how could we forget that? And WUTHERING HEIGHTS and I AM A FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG and LAST YEAR AT MARIENBAD and...
ROB: Welcome to Mars. It's good to finally get some company up here. I'm the lunatic who's been shooting the tops off the crystal towers, in case you're wondering...
'Scuse me. This was quite lame (I haven't learned to edit before posting yet):
I refer properly to my sojourn ON Mars. Not TO Mars.
Back from a long sojourn to Mars. Bought some real estate there with a mansion over-looking the Nanedi Valles. Friends are telling me I finally found a place that suits me. I’m not completely sure but I think I resent the inference.
Forgive me if I offer thoughts on posts stretching back to the last millennium; I only scrolled through the cite yesterday.
Benjamin "Washu", et al, re: The Thing.
I completely trashed Carpenter’s version because I didn’t give a damn about any of the characters. This was supposed to be a research station but it was more like a frat; everyone running around with the imbecilic dialogue of Spring Break bingers. Nothing likable about any of them. The scene that worked best was the close, where MacReady and Childs share a bottle of whiskey while waiting for each other to die. Contrary to some speculation here that one of them was the thing, the final frame suggests to me that it was the dog and neither of them. Maybe I just preferred that. It is interesting though: the creature’s logic would be at work. Both bodies of MacReady and Childs would appear normal and the critter would freeze itself in the ice again for unwary teams to discover one day, covering all evidence of what it had done (unlike it did at the first station). It’s a hypothetical possibility, yet would there have been a need for that last shot of the husky running off (while taking a glance back at us) if Carpenter wanted to suggest it?
Anyway, the film has an existentialist framework that could’ve rocked if the characters had been better written. I liked the telepathic angle in the original draft you mentioned. Very Outer Limits-like. But more often than not Carpenter runs in with a great idea and fails to realize its potential. I rarely expect more from him.
Incidentally, Ben, as I scrolled back yesterday I noted a post I believe YOU’D submitted when you were all discussing the Oscars. To delight us all you referred to it as "Be Nice To Negroes Night"; that pissed me off because it simply wasn’t accurate. It was a tribute to the great Poiter, whose intelligent and eloquent presence along with Redford’s, raised the show above its usual half-witted glitz. Halle Berry’s hysterics aside (playwright Suzan-Lori Parks, recently the first black to win the Pulitzer for Drama, delivered a much more ordered, dignified, intelligent and moving response about the "doors opening"; no tears, no screaming hysterics; no lawyers being thanked. Just passion for her art. But to be fair actors are often hyper-emotional anyway; watch Dustin Hoffman interviews sometime; he breaks in tears half the time and you don’t even understand what he’s blathering about. A great brilliant actor but at times his interviews make me wince. So, Berry may well be an intelligent lady; just too damn emotional. Then, again, she’s a gorgeous chick, so I let her get away with it no matter what), most of the people up there deserved what they got. (Though the director acknowledgments disappointed me; I wanted Altman to win). And Whoopie Goldberg was the best, funniest and most intelligent host I’d ever seen for the Oscars. I mean ever (I just wish her movies complemented her talent). I simply find it interesting that when the event is bleached white it seems copacetic; when several of color are honored it’s suddenly too politically correct. ONE to be honored is fine...we can put up with that...but SEVERAL...man, that’s kissing a lot of non-white butts. By no means were you trying to be a jerk; I do feel your notions were miscalculated. I wonder a lot these days where the line blurs between Political Correctness and appropriate recognition. The extremity of PC (a price a society inevitably pays for an injustice it once imposed on a people) is annoying and repressive but so is its reverse, where you can’t say or cite anything without being accused of PC. It’s a swinging cultural pendulum that will last for a time till the proper middle ground is perceived.
Joseph,
I'm with you on Fail Safe. Kubrick originally drafted a "straight" version like that one but saw it as so insane no one would believe it. I think his take on it captured the inherent truth more cogently than any "drama" could. 'Course comedy often does. I think the device of satire was invented to do what drama never could. I'm sure that's what Aristophanes would tell us.
Re: earlier comments on 2001.
In response to self-assured pin-pointing of supposed scientific errors in 2001 I’ll point out a couple of things. One, it is the most accurate space movie ever made. It’s more accurate than movies like Apollo 13, in which you hear the blasts of rockets shake the universe in spite of its vacuum. Two, before we get too cocky about our information Arthur C. Clarke, a physics expert, served as technical consultant - in ADDITION to a team of NASA engineers Kubrick brought in. Three, Kubrick cannot be blamed for any errors any more than the others, as art was at work to align itself with the science: metaphors were attached everywhere. For example, certain design features of Discovery cannot be justified by engineering considerations; the lack of peripheral connecting pieces beyond the thin central axis makes the ship vulnerable to snapping from centrifugal force during turns around Jupiter or maybe even space debris. And the three hexagons in the rear have no engineering function whatsoever (like the orange-peel dome on the Moon). No, the Discovery is HAL. Thus the Discovery resembles a brain attached to a spinal chord. HAL, in turn, was a comment about US. It was ingenious. I think that much of the appeal of the movie was not only the graceful technology, but that the technology served to reveal a deeper, grander truth. All of the transportation systems in the movie were "vehicles" in both the literal and figurative sense. They moved humans around space, but they also moved humans closer to revelation and deeper into the mystery, whatever name you decide to append to it. Scott went on about how HAL was the closest thing to a human being in the movie. This may be news for you , Scotty, but that was the idea: the neurotic HAL was the ONLY thing human in the movie, contrasted against the droid-like movements, activity and responses of "janitor"-astronauts Bowman and Poole (note, significantly, how the latter "reacts" to his parents’ happy birthday message). They - we - are still closed within the trappings of ritual, from eating our little sandwiches to turning bolts with our wrenches as if absent of an ultimate goal; as if, in a sense, we are losing our way in the tenuous course of evolution. That is why Kubrick aligned the modern images with the Dawn of Man sequences (and, no, I don’t think that was supposed to be covering millions of years in the montage; I think Kubrick would have emphasized more environmental change in stages). In subtle ways references to that opening reappear throughout the movie. The motions of the team walking up to the Monolith at the moon excavation is the most blatant example.
If you watch this movie and you miss its subtexts and metaphors and paradigms in its gloss of metaphysics and try to follow it all literally - as mechanistically as the people in the movie themselves - you’re not going to be able to handle the film. It’s above you, man. And with that insolent close I’ll back Chris in the rally cry for Kubrick as god-like, untouchable and perfect...just like a certain author whose arcane powers of the word keep drawing us back here in the trappings of ritual.
...speaking of Whom:
Harlan, I spotted your post regarding Asimov and joined your winged throngs to spread the word. Cackle at your heart’s delight.
And, Scott:
Forgive me for bringing this up; I know this is a matter long dead and buried. But I dun been away, ok? So I’ll make this point quickly: I saw way back where you took Harlan a wee bits too seriously and ran up to your room in a huff. I just hope you didn’t smash up furniture; your wife probably went to a lot of trouble to pretty up the place. As one who, in the past, fell into that trap on occasion here let me tell you, just for future reference, that sarcasm in this form is often hard to catch. I, in my innate assholery, have often pitched sarcastic fastballs online only to have the guy at bat come running back at me to beat my face in. And on the other end I’ve taken some shots too seriously. In fact, Harlan and I have done it to each other a number of times (here and in person. He probably thinks to this day that he really had me cowering behind bookstore shelves once; but I WAS just kidding around. I cower before no one. Harlan, I ain’t uncomfortable around ya, y’dig? FURTHER, just to digress, because there IS a message I want to get across, I won’t push photocopies of my work in your face; I've been worried about how much that might have bothered you. Some day you can see what I’ve been up to once I turn pro; then, what you would like or dislike would have little consequence. AND I will never be late again. So here y’got my oaths, even though I’m rambling...because I’d like to see you again sometime; Lana may finally come along to say hello and you can both gang up and remind me to your delights what an asp I am). At any rate, (getting back to Scott) we’ve all taken each other too seriously here at times and it’s easy to do. I’m just saying we need to stay conscious of that.
AND, finally - hopefully, more coherently - my contribution to the "favorite bw movies" thread:
Some of you already nailed a few: Lonely Are The Brave, Eraserhead, Fury and M and Odd Man Out. Among the endless et ceteras I’ll toss in Corman’s Bucket of Blood (where I discovered a surprisingly versatile actor named Dick Miller), Cocteau’s Beauty and the Beast, In Cold Blood, The Desperate Hours, 36 Hours, Ed Wood, White Heat, Treasure of the Sierra Madre (Robert Blake, from ICB, is the annoying Mexican kid tormenting Bogie at the beginning), first season Outer Limits episodes that Conrad Hall had shot European style, and on and on and on and on and on and on...
Just saw Ox-Bow Incident for the first time. Quite disturbing even now. What gets me is after you’ve seen a number of these old movies, faces you recognize pop up all over: the guy playing the sadistic southern colonel wanna-be in Ox-Bow is the actor in Day the Earth Stood Still, who interviews Klaatu in the hospital and must decline the alien’s request to talk with leaders from all over the world. I still remember Stalag 17, how it blew my mind when I saw Peter Graves as the stoolie; prior, I’d never seen him in anything of great merit and I didn’t know he’d worked for Billy Wilder.
Heather,
"Snow White, Blood Red" is part of the Windling-Datlow Fairy Tales Series from the mid-80's through the mid-90's. Had some highly interesting volumes, such as Charles DeLint's takes on Jack the Giant Killer, Jane Yolen combining Sleeping Beauty and the Holocaust in the wonderful "Briar Rose," and my personal favorite, "Tam Lin," where Pamela Dean sets that old tale at a 1970's Minnessota college. Fun series, well worth hunting down. Just for the hell of it, here's the others that I know of:
"The Sun, The Moon and the Stars," Steven Brust
"Jack, The Giant Killer," Charles DeLint
"The Nightingale," Kara Dalkey
Regards,
Joseph
Started reading Douglas Winter's "Art of Darkness." He was describing how he first met the works of Stephen King, at a shoeshine stand.
I DON'T know why this never occured to me (probably because I live in a slightly male-influenced world and seem to just 'go along' with some things. Anyway.)...but having him describe picking up "Cavalier" magazine, most of the girlie pictures having been torn out and nothing but the stories left..
If I'd been interested in Stephen King, back then, I'd have had to buy GIRLIE magazines to read him.
Think about that. VISUALIZE that, will you?
Heather
*** Joseph *** Thanks for fielding that one. The small 'o' designation is short for octavo which refers to the common practice of folding a sheet into 8 leaves for book production. There are a million book terms and I am no Barry R. Levin. I pretty much get by with differntiating between BOMC and HC 1st's, noting relevent editions, states and printings - and being sensitive to book geek desires - ie. mentioning creases, remainder marks, etc. Last year I did the "points" on an American 1st edition of Huck Finn for Dr. Brendan Strasser but I still had to look all that stuff up. He found it in a auction box lot for $12.00 and realized $1700.00 I had to drop out at $660.00 but he gave me a couple of HC 1sts I wanted for my time so it's all good.
As for purchasing books - hah! I'm a blue-collar guy in my present incarnation doing home building and renovation. When the customer finds out the scary looking gorilla humping plywood and aspenite in their backyard not only can read but already owns 22,000 books the conversation usually gets around to those three boxes of books they were going to throw away and I take them off of there hands. Last week a customer gave me an 1879 illustrated Shakespeare. Not actually "rare" but not K-mart common either. Also, I have a stringer at the recycling center who pulls good stuff for me. Two months ago I got a 9 volume History of Freemasonry [c.1886] from a widow who despised this particular activity of her husbands and was happy to have it carted away.
These are the end times folks. Books have no value. If you don't believe me ask your neighbor. Pay for books? Not in this intellectual climate.
- Barney
I knew baseball was a superstitious sport, but holy guacamole:
http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/babe04142002.htm
L.
David:
Keeping in mind, I've only started reading Neil Gaiman... and forgive my sounding.. hmmmm..suspicious.
I can see he's done turns on the classic fairy tales. (Poppy Z. Brite seems to be doing this too, only on an erotic level, par exemple.) I realize that's what "Nevermore" is; a take on "Alice in Wonderland." Now, riddle me this, Batman: I was looking at books edited (or anything to do with) Ellen Datlow and came across these books:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380718758/jonradel/103-0173938-3442239
Is this an attempt by others (no, I'm not saying Gaiman's at the center of the universe--we ALL know Harlan is. heh.) to play on this current trend?
Or what? Any opinions, including ones on Datlow, would be appreciated. Am I being.. I dunno.. IDUNNO..to note, hey what's with all the retakes--though wonderfully done--of classic tales?
Newbie horror/fantasy/speculative poisson
I swear to G-D., I only hit the Farking button once...
Charlie,
Your quite welcome. Really, glad to be of help.
Melissa,
Of course, the sweetest would be a victory celebration in Grant Park after a 7-game World Series win over Cubs. Ah, the delectable sweetness of such a fantasy....
Regards,
Joseph
Charlie,
Your quite welcome. Really, glad to be of help.
Melissa,
Of course, the sweetest would be a victory celebration in Grant Park after a 7-game World Series win over Cubs. Ah, the delectable sweetness of such a fantasy....
Regards,
Joseph
HE:
Thanks again for the timely "Double Life" reminder--of course that was it. That information must have been packed away in the same brain cell that held the fact that Colman also did "Tale of Two Cities"--a movie I always intended to see, but forgot about, until now. See? Some good came out of the endless list-posting.
ALEX JAY BERMAN:
As a devoted Kelly-ite, I've often admired the ladder/rooftop clip as well. Hopefully you've been luckier than I have and have actually seen the movie it's from--otherwise, you've just seen it as a stand-alone from "That's Entertainment." I believe that it was from "Living in a Big Way" from this paragraph--
Exerpt from Peter Wollen's "Singing In the Rain:"
"Kelly is also proud of the dance sequence he did for Gregory La Cava’s Living in a Big Way in 1947, where he choreographed a complicated sequence with more than a dozen children - ‘Ring Around the Rosie’, the first part of which was based on children’s games, such as hopscotch, seesaw, bouncing balls and rolling hoops, moving on to an acrobatic solo which used the frame and railings and rafters and pulleys and ladders of a half-built house, the children gazing up from beneath."
I don't think it was from Summer Stock, as that was in color, and later in his career (as can be estimated from Garland's fluctuating size), and the clip was in b&w and early on.
Continuing on this train of consciousness, don'cha love Gene's roller skating number in "It's Always Fair Weather?" That's one of my all-time favorite solo novelty dance numbers from the movies (yes, I have so many I have to catagorize them this way.)
[Lonegungirl deeply hearts Ronald Colman & Gene Kelly]
Started with Bean, obviously ended up with LOTR. This is a nice looking site. Can't vouch for the content, but still..
http://www.theonering.net/index.shtml
Lot o' nice sites out there.
Joseph: THANKS, so much, perfect. Charlie
Anyone read Bernard Cornwell's stuff? I liked Sean Bean in the Sharpe's Rifles series. We had it on PBS. This book, "The Archer" looks interesting:
http://www.harperacademic.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0066210844
So does this pic: *laugh*
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/3612/SeanBean.html
The local weekly paper runs Chris Ware's wonderful "Rusty Brown" comic, and this week, he decided to fill it with sketches, little bits about his life, etc. But what readers here mind be interested in-- assuming that you're not already a fan of Ware's work-- is the inclusion of a sketch he did from a "How Do" book of the 1950s.
The book is credited as "Draw Comics? Here's How!" by George R. Carlson, 1953. And as we all know from our _Hornbooks_, George Carlson was the creator of _Jingle Jangle Tails_.
Oh, I forgot. Joseph, I told the husband about your little bit of crowing about your spectacular success so far. I could hear the little smile he gets when he thinks someone's getting a bit boastful, and he said; "Two weeks, and he's already calling for the championship parade through the streets of Chicago. And they wonder why it's called the Windy City..."
I'm not offering an opinion; my own father thinks you have the team to beat.
Have fun guys and play nice, Melissa
Heather: Scotty's working today. But, "In Cold Blood" is B&W, and is one of Scotty's favorite of both books and films. He has a tremendous empathy for the Robert Blake character Perry Smith, and Scott has always felt Blake really came at the role perfectly. For me, the most chilling scene is Smith's statement right before he climbs the gallows.
Back to the vacuum and mop brigade.
Melissa
SCOTT:
"In Cold Blood" was in B&W, wasn't it? Oh gawd. Robert Blake. What a chilling performance.
"The Man who wasn't there." Yeah...Billy Bob Thorton. Incredible. The guy's a CHAMELEON.
DAVID:
(Yes. Same address. Thanks.) I seem to recall the Andy Griffith movie. That one and...what was that one with Jackie Gleason? (Maybe there were two. Somehow, I'm thinking of him and Steve McQueen. Could be another movie.) Those are two examples of actors who weren't remembered for their more amazing work. Amazing.
Hey...don't you remember that smiley guy/horrible guy Griffith played in one of those movie-of-the-week type flicks? I forget the other character, but Griffith was a sheriff and he was basically TORTURING the guy, out in the desert. Brrr.
I remember that movie with Burt Lancaster swimming home, one day, by way of the neighbor pools. I bet that's one of my best recollections of strange, psychological horror. Beh!
Glinda. Oh....Sorry. (I guess this Belinda will have other powers, huh? *grin*) I'm not an Oz fan. Though John Ritter got me interested for a bit, with that strange little bio movie he did on Baum. I haven't read most of the kid lit you've mentioned. I imagine I'm gonna get to it. I have the rest of my childhood, now, to do so. *smile*
JIM GAUTHIER:
Couldn't find that Stephen King companion you mentioned--the one with the Ellison interview. The books at the library were different ones. Damn.
In a used bookstore yesterday. Neat name. Aslan and Frodo. A take on the connection between C.S. Lewis (no, I've never read Narnia--I found a book of his essays. I didn't know he wrote essays) and Tolkien. (Did you know of this connection?) I wanted to find some books related to female voice, mythology, short stories, horror, science fiction, nothing in particular.
First off, I found Douglas Winters' "Art of Darkness." I never read that one--he's the Stephen King afficionado. I found a Peter Straub (never read him) story collection called, "Houses without Doors." Started it. I like the way he writes. I SAW, but didn't buy an anthology by Chelsea Quinn Yarbo (I know that name) and another fella. Female and male views. It's got "The Kiss of Death" (damn I'm bad with names; I think that's what it was called), a story by Ellison. You heard of it? The intro talked about the Ellison persona--he acts like a 'press agent' for his own stuff. I liked that phrase. *laugh*
What else?..ah..when I first came in I found an old Joyce Carol Oates story called "Them" but bought one called "The Goddess and other women." Do we have any readers of HER stuff?
And finally, I bought this book of very old writers. A collection edited by W. Somerset Maugham. It's in really good condition--whoever contributes the books to this store kept in really good condition--It's from 1939.
The inside cover has a blue ink stamp on it. It reads: CHARLES MacQUARRIE--remember how some old stamps used capital?--CALEDONIA MINES, NOVA SCOTIA. Neat, huh?
And then, there's a date stamp--reminded me of the library, but this is on the inside flap--JUN 10 1939.
Imagine that, a date stamp, from 1939. Cool, no?
I was merely happy to find such a collection. It says "Tellers of Tales, A Definite anthology of the Short Story" on the spine and "100 Short Stories from the United States, England, France, Russsia and Germany" on the title page. It has some writers I've heard you all talk about, so I thought it might be interesting. (Sir Walter Scott, Washington Irving, Honore de Balzac, Edgar Allan Poe, Gustave Flaubert, Thomas Hardy, Henry James, Robert Louis Stevenson, Guy de Maupassant, Oscar Wilde, A. Conan Doyle, Joseph Conrad, O. Henry, Rudyard Kipling, H.G. Wells, Jack London, Leo Tolstoy, Anton Chekhov, Theodore Dreiser, Sherwood Anderson, Thomas Mann, E.M. Forster, P.G. Wodehouse, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Ring Lardner, Ernest Hemingway ("The Killers"! Cool.), Dorothy Parker, Aldous Huxley, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and William Faulkner are names I'm familiar with.
Then I got to wondering--not for me, for KICK--is this book of any value? Lemma know, eh. That would be cool.
ALEX JAY:
I understand what you mean about films versus movies. I don't imagine I'll ever catch up with this crowd on the dissection/discussion angle, but I'm okay listening to it. I wouldn't say I'm too old to start learning how, but it will be, perhaps, a little half-hearted, as I understand your use of the word ENTERTAINMENT--which I've watched movies, mostly, from that viewpoint.
Yet, I noticed me stepping back a few times with that Peter Straub I was reading; trying to see what he was DOING with his writing, his style--I admit I'll become a chewer of books. Heh. That's okay though...
And yes, Gene Kelly.
Went in search of tiny Gene Kelly poem I did..may not find it
but...Something else of mine... wave your mouse over the pictures--mine--for the poem:
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/Creatist/whitespace/poems/eveningUrbanGarden.html
Note: "back" and "next" don't work, though--this website was moved...
Ah..Alex Jay...here it is. Nothing special. But Kelly was.
He dances with such ease
He could spin round the moon
And the gleam of his smile made me pause
For just once in my life I would hope we had met.
To have let him just hear my applause.
Charlie,
Those are what is called the "format" of the book. Usually it goes 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, 24 - basically it's how much the pages have been folded and how. There's a good section at Alibris.com on the subject:
http://www.alibris.com/glossary/condition.cfm#books
The degree method of listing a book's format is mostly European, with the French booksellers especially being enamored of it.
If you want to really get into the subject, the essential text is "ABC For Book Collectors," by John Carter. Highly readable and a must for any collector.
Regards,
Joseph
Our local library decided it was time to put away the Lovecraft books when a couple turn up in the return bin with blood on the pages. Hysteria? Perhaps.
Around here, we have letters inserted in certain books. People write little notes about Jesus or about their week and slip them in for future consumption.
Of course, I've never seen anything as weird as a cooked slice of bacon, but I did find a five dollar bill with "Buy something nice" scribbled on it, several normal bookmarks, ads for "Work At Home" and even this pretty woman's photograph. One guy I know equated it with finding home porn taped at the end of your "erotic video" rental. Creepy comparison, I know.
Barney: I'm going to throw an inquiry your way. Anyone who purchases a couple thou. books in a couple months gotta know this. When describing books, I notice sellers use abbreviations, can you advise what they mean: in-8° oblong, in-18, in-12. Thanks
Good morning, all. Taking a break from the weekly cleaning to read.
Something Wicked: That book was one of the first conversations Scotty and I had. He's one of those "Fahrenheit 451 is the greatest" Bradbury fans, while I love "Wicked" and "Dandelion Wine". I've reread "Wicked" 30 times, by the way. I do think Jonathan Pryce's Mr. Dark is the most fun in the film, which has become one of my daughter's favorites.
Bookmarks: I talked to my sister, a librarian. The most memorable thing she could recall pulling from a volume was a tampon from a copy of "Being and Nothingness" by Sartre.
I don't quite know what to make of that, except that the tampon hadn't been used.
Love to all, Melissa
Yes, I am looking forward to this one. It's going to be a WB show in the same style as Buffy and Charmed - read: Witty young adults in a goofy mixed up world. I understand they're going to play up this "missing Batman" and dangle it along with first season teasing that he'll make an appearance.
What the hell - since the board spent 3 days talking about Star Wars [something I think of as the Ellison cyberspace equivalent of Richard Harris talking about royalty on Independence Day in "Unforgiven"] I figure I will throw caution to the wind and ask Harlan a Star Trek question.
I just picked up a copy of Star Trek #1 by James Blish [not the one with the Blish 'adaptation' of COTEOF] and was reminded that it was dedicated to Harlan - specifically, "to Harlan Ellison, who was right all the time". The question is, was he referring to your version of "City on the Edge of Forever" or some more general aspect of the way all things Star Trekkian played out. If it's just the "City" thing, well I have a pretty good handle on that, but if Blish had some specific thoughts on the ripple effect of Trek or some of the players and the statute of limitations has run out I'd love to hear it. Especially if it had Atheling overtones.
And while I normally don't mind everybody dog-piling on questions this one is just for Harlan.
- Barney
To Alex, re Poe Manuscript. definitely interested. Anything to take my mind off of this Historic District brouhaha I'm involved with.
Something Wicked This Way Comes: When Bradbury worked this up as a screen treatment from "The Black Ferris," who was Gene Kelly interested in playing? Or was he interested in directing the film but not appearing in it? I just realized that I have no idea from previous accounts whether Mr. Kelly intended to appear in the film or not.
Jon
And while we're still on Ebert, please take a moment to look at this new review of "Amadeus" and note the wonderful hit at the nitwits over at the MPAA:
http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/sho-sunday-ebert141.html
Crypto-moralists, indeed.
Regards,
Joseph
Jon & David,
You are indeed correct, Jon. My apologies, David, for somhow at 2 in the morning completely missing the "out loud" part of your post.
Here's the link to Ebert's Answer Man column on 'Man Who Wasn't There" prints mistakenly in color. As usual, blame the Canadians:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/answ-man/sho-sunday-ebert30.html
Regards,
Joseph
JOSEPH: Ray Bradbury actually wanted Christopher Lee to play Mr. Dark in SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, but for whatever reason (somebody clue me in?) Jonathan Pryce landed the role instead. Pity...Christopher Lee is DA MAN.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
FAQ: Ebert had a couple of Q&As on his website about the colour The Man Who Wasn't There. Apparently, some Canadian theatres got colour prints (or at least several colour reels among the B&W), which astonished people seeing the film. The columns may still be up on his site -- they were in the 'Movie Answer Man' section a few months back.
Joseph: 20 times, yes -- but I believe David noted that he'd read it out loud four times. The movie's pretty good, but the ages of the boys and of Halloway seem really off, as in too young for the former and too old for the latter (Robards is fine otherwise, of course). I think it would make a fine miniseries, and while it sounds wonky, the guy behind the *Anne of Green Gables* tv adaptations would almost seem to me to be a good choice.
Cheers,
Jon
'The Man who wasn't there' was shot in colour and then transferred to black & white. Though the film was lit as B&W, you can notice some colour artifacts still in the film. Normally a bit of amber or green which would indicate a rush job at the Labs. This indicates the film was transferred to a colour print.
I have heard stories of prints appearing of the film where a
reel suddenly becomes colour before going back to B&W.
If you know where to find one of these prints, steal them. They could become collectors items ;-)
I once cut a short film, 'Lucky Bugger', which was shot black & white but with one colour insert. We were warned by the lab that without having the time to do proper colour timing on a colour print, we risked giving the film an inadvertant sepia tone. Even if we went via digitally scanning the footage, this could happen. Unfortunately, we never found out as the producer couldn't raise sufficent finance from a film board to do the transfer (which I suspect was due to the films homosexual theme but thats another story...).
(Films such as Raging Bull and Schlinders List, which have colour inserts, do not suffer from this problem as the productions went with labs who with careful monitoring ensured that none of these artifacts appeared).
John Boorman shot 'The General' in colour and transferred to B&W. I think he was the first director to do this and the reasons were commercial. He wanted the film in B&W but certain foreign markets (i.e. the US) demanded a colour film. So there are two versions of the film available on US video, a B&W and a colour version. Thank you to the power of Blockbastards Videos.
FAQ
And hey! Looks like ASTRONAUTS IN TROUBLE, the brainchild of HERC member Larry Young, is in development, too!
One thing on typing versus computing:
There's one thing about writing on a computer or word processor that saddens me--there's really no first draft manuscript to be had. I just found out that the Free Library of Philadelphia's Rare Books Department has, among many, many other things, the manuscript of "The Murders of the Rue Morgue." No one's going to put a floppy disk in a museum.
(I have to find out how private tours of the department, with all its books, letters, manuscripts, and incunabula can be arranged--Brian? Chris? Barney? Interested?)
JOSEPH: Dina Meyer is to play Barbara Gordon/Oracle--and from a picture I've seen, she resembles Barbara as drawn by Butch Guice or Greg Land, the first and second artists of the book. Rachel Skarsten, someone of whom I've never heard, plays Black Canary (here a sixteen-year-old, which effectively takes away the great bonding between Canary and Oracle that the comic built).
Ashley Scott, someone with a recurring role on "Dark Angel", will play the Huntress. The Huntress, in this, is named Helena Kyle. Interesting mix of the Helena Bertinelli Huntress and Selina Kyle/Catwoman, I guess (The pic I have makes her look kinda dom). And in the pilot, she is being treated by a psychiatrist played by Sherilyn Fenn--a psychiatrist named *Harleen Quinzel*.
(*Note: That's the name of the shrink who went mad, fell in love with the Joker, and became Harley Quinn in the animated Batman series.)
And yes--the Joker is in the pilot.
Played by--no feuds now--Mark Hamill, though whether he is actually SEEN is not yet known.
Here's a good place to find stuff out:
Hey, am I nuts in noticing that they're actually planning a "Birds of Prey" series? Damn. I'll watch that.
LYNN: I'll admit to being quite intrigued by the Monolithic Dome--though mine would have to have a spiral staircase in the center, leading to a deck on the dometop.
One thing stood out, however: "A dome is fire rated at Type II or better. It just doesn't burn. The contents inside may, but the overall fire safety is incredibly high."
Doesn't that mean that the thing would become an oven in the event of a fire?
I like them a lot, though I would likely (comne the lottery win) have to hire all manner of experts to do the house for me ...
All,
Okay, now I'm laying down some smack. I'm kicking all youse butts on the League, and I want to see some competition! If it wasn't for the damned Indians, I'd be a really happy camper...
Regards,
Joseph
David,
A) Agreed on the disgusting habits of library eaters. Read Petroski's "The Bookcase" for a much better take than I can muster at 1:30 AM.
B) You've only read "Something Wicked" four times? Child. I've read it at least 20 or so. Simply one of the best novels of the 20th Century.
C) The aforesaid movie may not be great, but there's something about it that really grabs me. Jonathon Pryce is amazing, Robards is great with capital G, and it somehow captures a glimmer of the book. It does have one of my favorite special effects: Pryce ripping pages out of the book as his offer to Halloway grows smaller and smaller. "Forty-seven! Forty eight! Forty nine!" I dunno - the movie works for me.
Regards,
Joseph
Welcome to the junk drawer of my life.
From the "Things I Didn't Need To Know" file: Joey Buttafuco has a screen credit (for a speaking role) in the movie FINDING FORRESTER.
Things I Have Used As A Bookmark: Currency, foreign and domestic, preferably paper; receipts w/o any incrimination acct. numbers; joss paper, with that little bit of gold leaf in the center (screw burning my prayers, I'll let the book gods eat them); used envelopes; pages from the phone book; the ever ubiquitous coupon, in full color glossy for easy retrieval; cancelled checks; film negatives; and of course, the odd assortment of thread, ribbons, packing string, with a particularly cherished passage was marked with a lock of hair.
Jay~ My beloved and I keep a notebook for ideas of our dreamhouse, lovingly named the Wizard's Waystation. Construction begins as soon as that first lottery check clears. Actually, it's not just one house, but several, with one main house surrounded by several smaller rooms, all linked with covered walkways or tunnels. The main shape will be an inflatable dome (http://www.monolithicdome.com/), not geodesic. We've both agreed we like that organic form, as opposed to something more linear. It will have a working orrery done in bronze, brass, and copper; an observatory; hobbit-esque living quarters; and subterranean rooms for the hot tub/hot springs & sauna (as well as a million other little details I won't bore you with). I'll make sure you get an invite to the house warming.
L.
PS. Harlan~ The Underwood No. 5 is not on my shopping list, HOWEVER, I do have a manual that desperately needs work. We shall talk.
Anyone else here watch the Discovery-H&L series "Weird Homes"?
Tonight's show features a treehouse in Oregon with a strange owner (the highlight of the show), a dome home that rotates on its owner's will...and also has a UFO model hanging off it.
The people are quite interesting, if eccentric. They build castles in suburbia, cave homes, houses underground, on islands with canons... its pretty neat!
Jay
Barney:
What really disgusts me is when I run across evidence of what a previous reader was eating in a library book.
When I did a story on lost and stolen library books (it's on my Web site under "Writings: When Library Books Disappear"), a librarian told me a book was once returned with a strip of cooked bacon as a bookmark!
We've had testimony from folks who swear by typewriters and folks who grew up solely on computers. I straddled the eras.
When I was in college (1977-81), PCs were only just beginning to invade the campuses. I wrote all my papers out long-hand, with lots of additions and interpolations and arrows in the margins and spaces, and typed the second draft as a final version -- first on a manual, then on a cartridge electric as an upperclassman.
Had little to do with computers for another half decade. But when I hired on as a cub reporter in '87, we HAD to compose on word processors tied into an office system. I made the transition suddenly.
I continued to write letters longhand at home for three or four years thereafter. Didn't get sustained contact with computers until 1991, when my girlfriend (now wife) had a Mac at home and offices where I worked increasingly had PCs.
My upcoming book was composed on the Mac. People have talked about delete buttons and so on, but what I love most is cut-and-paste: you can move phrases, sentences, whole paragraphs and even pages from one place to another, even one part of the book to another.
I don't buy the notion that longhand writing or a manual typewriter forces you to "compose in your head" before the words ever hit the paper. I've written sloppily in all modes, and always cleaned up later. The best image, the best word, isn't always there right when you need it, no matter how many minutes you wait.
Sure, there's logorrhea out there on the processors. But you can't tell me there wasn't any back in Bulwer-Lytton's and Walter Scott's time! Ultimately, it still comes down to how clearly you think, how sharp your ear is for the language, and how much patience you apply both before AND after you have verbiage down in front of you.
Personally, I find both writing and revising much easier on computer. Not MENTALLY, but physically. When I can make things happen faster -- with less physical effort -- that means more of my energy can go directly toward thinking and hearing the right phrases, the ones I want.
There is that issue of cathode rays and headaches, however. I can remember pacing a lot more in college, to clear my head, stretch my legs, and think about the next steps, when I wrote longhand. (Maybe to rest my hand, too!) Somehow I get glued to the computer screen, however, and have to remind myself to look away and stretch.
Jim Davis wondered about the ray bombardment on the retinae. I remember some discussion about this relative to TV in Jerry Mander's fine book, _Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television_, but that was 20 years ago, and I don't recall the substance. Look it up, it's a fine book.
This is just too creepy - Lately I've been selling books on Amazon.com [Barney's Books] and Half.com [as Captain Swivels and Procrustean59] to supplement my "collector income". In the last couple of months I have acquired a couple of thousand books that I have no real use for and so out they go. As I unbox and process these books [grade,repair,write condition descriptions, etc.] I occasionally remove the odd bookmark. I now have about half a shoebox comprising the more interesting ones. Today I pulled out a HC 1st ed. of "Silence of the Lambs" and I notice a space about half-way through which is usually caused by either a dog earing of the page or a small bookmark. This time the space seems a little wide to be the standard bookmark. I put the book down on my dining room table and lay the book open to the questionable page and what do I find was used to mark the previous owners place?
A toothpick.
Heather and Joseph waxed delighted re: Something Wicked This Way Comes.
One of my all-time favorite novels, too. Saw the movie again recently and it just doesn't come close.
I'm undoubtedly the one person on the planet who has read that novel out loud, cover-to-cover, FOUR TIMES.
Washu:
It's a mite easier to get a film like "Schindler's List" shot in B&W when you've made studios billions of dollars from blockbuster after blockbuster, the opposite of the situation faced by Scorsese at the time of making "Taxi Driver". Scorsese hadn't made any reputation of bankability for a studio and its backers, and their desire of profit could have more influence on Scorsese's efforts.
All the same, I think "Taxi Driver" a better film than "Schindler's List", and Scorsese a better director than Spielberg.
A yawn, and off to bed for a tired Bag-O-Scott...
Little Washu: Well, 'Who Goes There?' doesn't just have an optimistic ending -- the whole novella does show trained men acting competently and then heroically in the face of disaster while blowing off steam by wisecracking. I can see why Hawks was interested in it as a project.
Semi-trained people acting grumpily and getting nearly all killed off isn't necessarily unHollywood -- look at all the slasher movies, at Alien, at any number of Alien clones from Pitch Black to Event Horizon. It's sort of like there's two models for bottle (?) movies -- one in which people squabble but eventually hang together and in which only one or two characters die from the menace (Stagecoach, Lifeboat) and one in which everyone squabbles and gets pissy and eventually pretty much everyone dies while generally behaving badly, and thus we see the general lousiness of people and the massive hostility of the universe within a quipping, blowing-up-a-lot action movie package.
Alien Resurrection seemed like some kind of strange apotheosis of the latter type in skiffy -- boilerplate eff-a-lot dialogue; humoungous set design; a bunch of thoroughly unpleasant characters; a reliance on audience empathy with an actor or actress to take care of such minor things as generating empathy for a character no one feels like, y'know, writing well or anything; lots of deaths; CGI; and so on, and so forth. Oh, wait, several people survived at the end of AR. Oh, who cares. They might as well have all died, and they faced a happy sentimental ending after running a really big ship into Earth, which apparently didn't damage anyone but aliens, so it's all good. Must scrap model. No, it's a third model! The nihilistic action movie with the freakish sentimental ending! Add a final 'Is it really over?' twist and we're really cooking. Cooking with gas.
As to a telepathic flying bug thing that embeds itself in people's skulls...besides 'Ewwwwww!', all I can add, having just read *Radio Free Albemuth*, is, hey, it's a Clark Ashton Smith thing, but with Robert Heinlein's political leanings!
Cheers, Jon
" "Taxi Driver" - Scorsese wanted to shoot it in B&W, but the studio balked. One wonders what statement it might have made if the director had won out."
You know, that one statement makes me wonder just how much directors are REALLY willing to fight for their work. Yes, if Scorsese had begun combating the studio funding would have been pulled, but it seriously makes my blood boil when Spielberg can walk away with B&W on SCHINDLER'S LIST just because of how powerful his influence is. Not that SCHINDLER'S LIST is a terrible film BY ANY MEANS. But for god's sake, if Martin Scorsese wants to do TAXI DRIVER in B&W, let him do it. What's the worst that can happen? (That question is always immediately followed by executive back-talk of statistics and demographics.)
Terry Gilliam was ready and willing to fight to the death for BRAZIL when Universal began giving him problems, career be damned. He was aware of the consequences, shrugged, and said, "fuck it."
A very tired and very angry Little Washu who's getting some sleep.
Alex,
I'd be almost certain it's "Summer Stock," but I don't remember that scene specifically. Perhaps I need to see that again....
Regards,
Joseph
Actually, you guys may be able to answer a movie question for me. There is a scene from a black-and-white Gene Kelly movie which has always astounded me--during a barn-raising, a musical number ensues. Kelly ends up tapdancing on the not-yet-completed roof and steps onto a leaning girder, pushing it off into thin air (tapping all the while)--but the girder swings over like a metronome to the OTHER side of the barn's framework. This is one of the most amazing dance routines I've ever seen--and I can't for the life of me remember what movie it's from!
It MIGHT be FOR ME AND MY GAL, or SUMMER STOCK, but I just don't remember seeing that scene in either movie.
Anyone know?
HE mentioned Dan Puls in his post earlier. That's the man whom I e-mailed inquiring about the Olympia portable that I mentioned yesterday. That's also the website I threw out here. I'll do so again: http://mrtypewriter.tripod.com/. It's called the St. Louis Typewriter Company or something to that effect.
His quote to me about the portable was about $200 plus s&h for those interested. Leave one for me.
Bill
HARLAN: Thanks for the pointer, but I very much doubt I can afford anything Mr. Puls might sell.
(His Remington Quiet-Riter looks a damned sight better than mine.)
For everyone else, his website is at:
MOVIES: I have a confession to make. I don't much care for films.
At least, not in the way most of YOU guys do.
What I love are MOVIES. Bits of celluloid put together to entertain. Yes, I can deconstruct the angles, themes, dialogue, just like a film school freak, but for the most part, I choose not to. Yes, THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI is driven by Orson Welles' desire for and eventually feelings of betrayal for Rita Hayworth, and the destruction of the house of mirrors at the end, as all the reflections come crashing down is representative of the lead character's frustration and feelings of failure, but you know what? I'd rather just sit back and enjoy the movie.
The truly great movies--CASABLANCA, CITIZEN KANE, THE AFRICAN QUEEN, all of them--are obviously amazing pieces of work, but they are, at the end--to me, anyway--amazing bits of ENTERTAINMENT. Art they may be, but I just enjoy looking at them. Not that a full Brechtian analysis of a film would ruin it, but it's just not what I want to do. I just wanna see a good flick.
This is, I guess, how I can love the films I mentioned above while still being crazy for almost-great-but-falls-flat movies like Fosse's ALL THAT JAZZ, as well as absolute crap movies that are still a lot of fun (for instance, the entire oevre of Nico Mastorakis).
I just like movies.
And I'd rather enjoy than dissect.
Granted, I sat seething through HANNIBAL and through A.I. because I saw them as shams; as bad works that could have been good were it not for the writers and directors going for the easy gut shot rather than taking the time to BUILD something; as manipulative pieces of shiny trash. But that kind of feeling is rare.
(The funny thing is that when I started thinking of the older movies I love best, I kept coming up with ones that were filmed in color--Don Ameche in the original HEAVEN CAN WAIT, virtually every Gene Kelly musical [with a special affection for COVER GIRL and THE PIRATE]--odd, that.)
A brief respite from the purgatory of work (93 hrs. this week; will exceed 100 for the next two) to add a thought regarding Brian's assertions concerning the use of black and white as enhancement.
"Taxi Driver" - Scorsese wanted to shoot it in B&W, but the studio balked. One wonders what statement it might have made if the director had won out.
"The Man Who Wasn't There" - Perhaps this film partially answers the query raised above. The starkness of the lack of color really enhances the drama in Thorton's, MacDorman's and Shaloub's performances. Not quite "Blood Simple" (there's another that gave me pause to consider what impact that film would've had if the Coens had done it without color), but quite good.
Now, for a few hours to decompress...I'll see you all in a couple of weeks, should I live.
"Looks like I picked a fine time to quit amphetamines!"
A Beat up Bag-O-Scott
Correction - "Eraserhead would have a different feel with its Black & White texture had it been shot now".
Sorry, was in a rush to catch Peter Cook/Dudley Moore in Bedazzled.
FAQ
Never fear, Harlan. I saw THE INFORMER a summer ago. Classic, classic tragedy - a little too heavy with Christian undertones, but a wonderful meditation in guilt and shame regardless.
BRIAN: "What we ought to do is focus on great films that _use_ black and white most effectively."
I think I already touched on something like that. ERASERHEAD brilliantly uses black and white to create the most dream-like atmosphere I have ever seen in any film.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Harlan,
The John Carpenter movie you can't remember the name of is THEY LIVE.
Just one word about this "best of black and white" thread. We shouldn't be merely listing great films made in black-and-white; there's really no end to doing that.
What we ought to do is focus on great films that _use_ black and white most effectively. After all, if we're going to limit ourselves to films made under a particular criteria, we ought to evaluate their greatness _by_ that criteria.
For example, _Casablanca_ is a great film, one of the true greats, one of the handful that could be considered the Greatest of All Time. But I don't think it's use of black and white is as distinctive as other films of the period.
Compare it to the look of Carol Reed's _The Third Man_. The spectacle of the Vienna ruins. The fetid damp of the sewers. That wonderful moment when Orson Welles stands revealed in the doorway. Or, take James Wong Howe's photography of _The Sweet Smell of Success_. Or the work Gregg Toland did on _Citizen Kane_.
Speaking of B&W movies, you must not forget THE DEVIL AND DANIEL WEBSTER.
Be seein' you.
My six favorite black-and-white films would be:
Seven Samurai
City Lights
Some Like It Hot
Ikiru
The General
Dr. Strangelove
I guess. Harlan complained about list making, but if it helps get us actually talking about the movies -- and inspires a couple folks to seek out a few they didn't know -- then this is a VERY GOOD THING.
Little Washu asked about forgotten classics. I knew about "Lost Horizon" long ago because PBS had a miniseries of documentaries circa 1975(?) called "The Men Who Made the Movies." I know Hawks and Ford were among the six men profiled in hour-long specials. But Capra made the deepest impression on me at the time, so I learned about "Lost Horizon" around the age of 14. Still haven't seen it, though (don't tell Harlan!). I know a lot about things I haven't seen.
Anyway, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a classic, but one heckuva B&W movie that I rarely find anyone who's heard of or seen, is "A Face in the Crowd." It stars Andy Griffith as a sort of rockabilly star who makes it to the top and becomes heartlessly ruthless and cynical. Slightly earlier generation, musically, than the protagonist of Ellison's _Spider Kiss_, but kind of the same plot. Griffith is great in this role; it must have taken so much out of him that he couldn't do serious drama ever again....
On Wednesday, Heather mentioned "Belinda" and asked if she had been the good witch of the north. I don't think anyone corrected this.
GLINDA was the good witch, and as any devoted Oz fan knows, she was the good witch of the SOUTH in Baum's books! For no apparent good reason, Billie Burke identifies herself as "Glinda, the good witch of the north."
PAB asked about The New Republic. My Dad had a subscription all through my childhood, and I faithfully read Stanley Kauffmann, one of the most erudite and hard-assed film critics of the 20th century, while I was growing up. My impression is that TNR was a good old-fashioned liberal mag for most of the century, but I noticed it developed a rather snide attitude in the mid 1980s, as well as a neo-con side, so I dropped my subscription. It's not a BAD magazine, just rather uneven.
If Kauffmann is still reviewing films in there, however, that's almost worth the price of a subscription right there.
Shoot! Just when my access to the board has been forced to become much more rare and fleeting (at least on weekdays), Harlan is back in a big way. And I have a lot of catching up to do with the rest of you. Short items:
Alex: I haven't seen "Chasing Amy," so I couldn't say how I'd react to its embarrassment theme. Thanks for reminding me of the correct title of "Flirting With Disaster," Rich; you can tell I didn't like something when my normally sharp trivia-stocked brain can't retrieve the name.
Heather: I finally put a couple items in the mail to you Friday. Hope you haven't changed your address since you gave it to me a couple months ago.
Have you seen "Hardware Wars"? Terrific short spoof of "Star Wars"!
Harlan mentioned "The Man in the White Suit" among his favorite B&Ws. I just saw that again last week in order to review it for AllWatchers.com. Then I looked up Guinness on the IMDb.
The notes mentioned how much he loathed the hammy dialogue that was placed in his mouth for "Star Wars." Apparently he begged Lucas to kill off Obi-Wan Kenobi because he wanted not to play him anymore so badly. He allegedly threw away any fan mail that referred to Star Wars without response.
To enter a contest to win...go here...
http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/features/special/tokillamockingbird/
Here's an excerpt on contest:
Tell us in 350 words or less what makes To Kill a Mockingbird a classic and you will become eligible to win a signed bookplate edition. Send your essay to mockingbird@harpercollins.com
Check out the website URL above, for more details.
Favourite B&W movies
A few years ago at University, I had met people who would openly exclaim their cinematic appreciation credentials by stating, "Ohhh how I love black & white movies. There was never a bad one made".
Being in the company of such pseudo-cineaste, I would wish them to a hell where they were strapped into a seat, such as Alex in Clockwork Orange, and be forced to watch an endless loop of Blondie/Dagwood movies for all eternity...
It didn't help that nearly all these people were also slumming it in Arts based courses (I worked for my science degree, thank you very much!). Sorry, had to vent that particular spleen.
If anyone is interested in learning more about Black & White cinematography, they can do nothing better than purchasing John Alton 'Painting with Light' (University of California Press, 1995). Alton was a DoP on T-Men, The Big Combo and Elmer Gantry.
Unfortunately, the stock and lab processing for creating the B&W look of that period is now gone, though I have been told that Moscows and Poland film labs would be able to emulate this. You see the odd film trying to recreate it and, I think, Woody Allen had the best success with Broadway Danny Rose (Also have a look at Manhatten).
Even a film like Eraserhead would not have the same look had it been produced. I did see some tests on a Flame system, a post-production tool used mainly for video effects work, that showed that such a look could be done on video originated material. But the flaws would show up once you transferred the material onto 35mm film.
FAQ
"The cat's in the bag, the bag's in the river."--SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS (The best Scorcese film NOT directed by Scorcese.)
Question: What movie had the line "He's so crooked, he eats soup with a corkscrew"? I honestly can't remember, and it's driving me nuts.
...and WILD STRAWBERRIES and FORBIDDEN GAMES and FIRES ON THE PLAIN and MONKEY BUSINESS and KISS ME DEADLY and DON'T LOOK BACK and EYES WITHOUT A FACE and ANDREI RUBLEV and OUT OF THE PAST and...
SHIT! How did we all forget THE INFORMER!?!!?!!
he
LONEGUNGIRL:
The title of the Ronald Colman/Othello film you're grasping for is A DOUBLE LIFE.
And if you admire Colman as THE PRISONER OF ZENDA, don't miss him in A TALE OF TWO CITIES.
In fact, next to Paul Muni, Conrad Veidt, Richard Conte and Dick Powell, Ronald Colman is my favorite actor. After Jimmy Cagney, of course.
Omigawd, you guys are doing to to me again.............eep......
LONEGUNGIRL:
The Ronald Colman/Othello film was A DOUBLE LIFE.
And if you liked him as THE PRISONER OF ZENDA, try him in A TALE OF TWO CITIES.
Next to Paul Muni and Richard Conte and Dick Powell and Conrad Veidt, Ronald Colman is my all-time favorite actor. After Jimmy Cagney.
O geeezus, you guys are doing it again................eep.......
FAVORITE B&W MOVIES: Kinda like "What's you favorite movie that used a camera?" - I mean, there are only a couple thousand fine, fine B&W movies. Nonetheless, I will play:
Citizen Kane
Touch of Evil (which I like more than Kane which - both are in my personal Top 20)
The Seventh Seal
Woman in the Dunes
The Night of the Hunter
The Man Who Wasn't There (just to squeeze in one modern one)
The Maltese Falcon
The Bicycle Thief
The Bride of Frankenstein
The Passion of Joan of Arc
The Killing
Psycho
A Hard Day's Night
The General
I could go on forever, of course.
My favorite movies I most wish were in Black and White:
Ride the High Country
Rear Window
The Conversation
Mean Streets
RESPONDING TO YOUR EVERY LITTLE WHIM & QUERY:
BARNEY: You guessed pretty close to dead-on. I stopped with my favorite "six" black and white films at somewhere vicinity of neighborhoodedly sixteen/seventeen, because I realized (as you surmised) that I'd allowed you ragamuffins to drag me into your seething mania-pit of BEST OF/FAVORITE OF lunacy. It was like that children's book, MILLIONS OF CATS: oh, I'll take this cute kitten home, and oh I'll take that one, too, and this one, and that one, and... And there was the b&w DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE of Ingrid Bergman and Spencer Tracy; there was CASABLANCA; there was SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS from which I actually and literally quote every day; there was Ray Milland and Charles Laughton in THE BIG CLOCK; there was my beloved STAGECOACH and BEAU GESTE; there was the best anti-war movie of all time, Kubrick's PATHS OF GLORY, and later, DR. STRANGELOVE; and HIGH SIERRA and THE MALTESE FALCON and THE LODGER and ACROSS THE PACIFIC and BLOOD ON THE SUN and HOLLYWOOD HOTEL and THE CAT AND THE CANARY and Chaney's THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME and THE PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO and THE QUIET MAN and SEPARATE TABLES and THE LAVENDER HILL MOB and FOOTLIGHT PARADE and ZELIG and RED RIVER and SOME LIKE IT HOT, THE MARK OF ZORRO, LA STRADA ... LA STRADA ... LA STRADA ... (not the Italian subtitled version, but the Italian DUBBED version, with the actual voice of Giuletta Massina and Anthony Quinn and Richard Basehart); and a film I worship, THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS (without that treacly bullshit studio ending they added after they kicked Welles off the production); THE GUNFIGHTER, MY DARLING CLEMENTINE, THE OLD GUN, KING KONG, FREAKS, THE ENCHANTED COTTAGE, COMMANDOS STRIKE AT DAWN, THE LAST ANGRY MAN; Joseph Schildkraut in the MGM short feature THE TELL-TALE HEART by Poe, directed by Jules Dassin; and RIFIFI, WAGES OF FEAR, THE MUMMY, Olivier's HAMLET, FLYING DOWN TO RIO, THE COCOANUTS, KEY LARGO, THE ROCKING HORSE WINNER, THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT, THE AMERICANIZATION OF EMILY, TWELVE ANGRY MEN, PATTERNS, THE GENERAL DIED AT DAWN, I MARRIED A WITCH; the original COUNT OF MONTE CRISTO with Robert Donat; THE THIN MAN and several of its sequels, DR. CYCLOPS, THIS GUN FOR HIRE, THE ASPHALT JUNGLE, THE STORY OF LOUIS PASTEUR, THE STORY OF EMILE ZOLA, THE LAST HURRAH, REPULSION, TAXI DRIVER, THE GRAPES OF WRATH, GILDA, TOPPER, THE SEA WOLF with Garfield, Robinson, Lupino and Alexander Knox, whatta cast; THE SEVENTH SEAL and and and and ohmigawd...
You see why I quit, Barney? It was a mugg's game! It was bibble-babble. There is no END. And one can go down that bibbling, babbling road forever, till the amassed titles mean NOTHING to anyone who might benefit from exposure to unknown titles. It was, truly, a path to insanity and massive time-waste...as is this followup...
ALEX JAY: The best guy I'VE found as a source for Olympias, is Dan Puls of St. Louis Typewriter Company. He has a website, but I'm not going upstairs to rummage about finding it for you. That's why you people are computer-bravo, and I am Luddite-literate. Go find Dan Puls on your own, all or none of you. But tell him I sent you. I vouch for his ratings and his service and his honesty and efficiency.
LYNN: If you need that typewriter you're drooling over repaired, I have the Last of the Wizard Typewriter Guys right here in L.A. We've worked together for more than thirty years. He's aces. His name is Jesus Silva, and IF it can be put back in total working condition, even if a hundred other voices tell you to commit the grotesque and disgusting act of disrespecting it with terminal kitschedness by turning it into "junk art" as a planter, IF IT CAN BE MADE TO FUNCTION, Jesus is the guy to do it. So if you buy the machine, let me know and I'll hook you up.
FAISAL: Nice surmise about the alcohol in the bottle killing the infection (Carpenter's remake of THE THING), but given the strength of that "entity," I'm not sure a tiny dose of Kentucky bourbon would knock it out. Might even kickapoo kick-start it. But even if your surmise is correct, the way around it--for the Thing--is that it only takes one molecule to infect, and if Macready had merely salivated on the rim, or the outside of the opening, that essence would've reached Childs through his lips BEFORE the liquor. Ergo, bam! instant infection.
(By the way, I loathe that remake. I refer to it as THE INVASION OF THE ITALIAN FOOD MONSTER. It looks, scene after scene, as if people are being consumed by twitching lasagna.)
(Now do not presume that I hate ALL Carpenter films, though I do dismiss MOST of them. But anyone who could make THE FOG, that alien invasion movie with "Rowdy" Roddy Piper, based on the Ray Nelson short story, the title of which escapes me, ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK, and one of my absolutely all-time unceasingly-watchable action/adventure/parody marvels, BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA . . . well, that's a guy whose work I continue to watch with interest; but if he persists in the squandering of his demonstrably idiosyncratic talent on amateurish aspirates like GHOSTS OF MARS, he will eventually be consigned to the Ed Wood Trash Heap of narrowly amusingly but not really very important cult curiosity directors.)
LITTLE WASHU: I had, of course, seen both front and back cover versions of the Harlan-as-composite paintings for THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON, way back in 1987, when Nemo Press did the original 35-year retrospective. I was knocked out by them then, and have been repeatedly knocked out by them ever since. I own that front cover painting, and it hangs here in Ellison Wonderland. (I don't know where the deep blue back cover version is. Nor who owns it now.) It falls across my line-of-sight a dozen times a day. By premeditated placement. The paintings are, of course, by my lifelong friends Leo & Diane Dillon, with whom I continue to speak regularly; and if you want my reaction to the FORM in which they cast me, well, I must tell you that Leo and Diane had already used that technique of combining elements to make a gestalt image--known in art circles as "cryptesthesia"--for my short story "Paingod" in its original digest-sized Ziff-Davis magazine appearance, FANTASTIC, some time in the early '60s. (I own that one, too.) So I was already impressed. The technique they used, cryptesthesia, was brought to its fullest flower (pun intended) by the 16th Century Italian painter Arcimboldo. His "composite heads" (melding flowers, fruits, vegetables, etc. into a larger gestalt image) are masterpieces of Fine Art, and were the siren song Leo & Diane responded to in trying to capture (as they sweetly phrase it) "the multiplicity and variety of our friend, Harlan."
Does that answer your idle query?
And I believe that ties up all loose ends. Yr. pal, Harlan
JON STOVER: In the novella, theere was a lot of mention of the Thing's telepathic capabilities - such as luring the scientist Blair to unearthing it from the ice in the first place. Actually, in the early drafts for Carpenter's THE THING, the final monster was ultimately a kind of insect life-form that embedded itself within the host's brain and was able to create all manners of horrific hallucinations, a' la telepathy. Then makeup artist Rob Bottin came aboard and re-invented the Thing into the shapeless monstrosity we see in the final movie, but all hints of telepathy were lost in the process. To find out everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - ever related to the Thing, check out the following address:
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~vampire/thing/thing.htm
Come to think of it, Campbell's ending was very optimistic and bright, as compared to Carpenter's vision that was pretty bleak. You'd think usually in Hollywood it'd be vice versa. Universal president Sid Sheinberg (that's right, the creep who hassled Terry Gilliam on BRAZIL) tried to stick his own 'happy ending' on John Carpenter's movie with MacReady and Childs being rescued from their fate. Carpenter himself said that all prints of this ending have been destroyed...at least, he hopes so.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
For those newly arrived to "Lost Horizon" who may want to see more of Ronald Colman, may I suggest "Random Harvest" and one of my personal faves, "Prisoner of Zenda?" He's also good in another one, the title of which I can't remember, where he plays an actor playing Othello and begins to identify a little too closely...
These will meet your b&w requirement, but I also put in a vote for the old Astaire/Rodgers films, particularly "Swingtime" and "Top Hat." I also particularly like "You Were Never Lovelier," one of the two that Astaire did with Rita Hayworth. Speaking of Rita, "Gilda" is great as well...
Oops - Yes! Happy Birthday Cindiana Jones!!! Keep making it up as you go along!
Now I have the theme music in my head... Hyah!!
Little Washu: I like the bleak take on The Thing. I haven't seen the movie in awhile -- is there ever any indication that independent things can verify their thingness visually or telepathically? It's apparently telepathic in the novella, but I don't remember that it is in the movie. Or in other words, two things could just sit there staring at each other until they both froze. Or assimilate each other. Or open a Starbuck's. Discussions on Doc Savage bulletin boards always seem to come around to the question 'Is that Doc Savage undercover as Macready in 'Who Goes There?' or just another giant man of bronze?" Good old Doc, staying one step ahead of an alien invasion, probably on his way to check out that other ill-fated alien-plagued Antarctic expedition of the 1930s. I know I've been pining for a Thing vs. Shuggoth vs. Savage special.
Jon
Whoever linked the "H. Salt Esq." site: THANKS! I laughed like crazy, man! Maybe that explains why I rather dig Saltdawg...
As for how one writes and with what for whatever reason, well, Barney said that thing about the beach and the sand and that made sense to me.
Apparently, some military police need only a blindfold as a medium and some kind of fabric marker (or something) to write their thoughts and sentiments.
The important thing isn't how you write, it's what you write.
I like the computer because I don't waste so much paper, white out and space. I learned personal typing in high-school. Like Heather, I associated typing skills with secretarial skills (too bad because I'd be a hell of a secretary and it doesn't seem like a bad daygig if one wants one of those things). My typing skills have improved since I decided the computer wouldn't explode if I laid hands on it.
I do prefer to write my journal and family/personal correspondence in longhand---usually on beautiful paper with a rainbow of funky pens (not all at once. I'm not in high-school anymore. I pick a visual "theme" and try to make it look pleasing and unique).
It troubles me that my school district is considering whether or not to discontinue the teaching of cursive writing. I think that's terrible.
Further back, I noticed that it was Cindy's birthday: Happy belated one!
I also noticed that Michael and Alia may see some sort of justice done in that heinous coffee robbery: Congratulations. Do let us know what happens to this guy so we can celebrate his sentencing.
FAISAL: There was actually ANOTHER sequel to Carpenter's THE THING by Dark Horse Comics called CLIMATE OF FEAR. It's far better than 'that other sequel' you're referring to (the two-parter, right?) and adequately captures the paranoia and the action from the film.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
You said:
"Justin, the reason Hollywood doesn't make more movies like that is because the movie you spoke of was done in Spanish. Snicker."
Didn't I just read somewhere that California has one of the larger Latin American populations in America?
I could be wrong. Sabe?
You didn't think I'd let you get away THAT easily, now, did you? Typewriters, heh. Now THIS is important stuff. Yer comin' with me...(THAT is a take on Stevie K's, "let me take you by the hand; let me kiss you.." intro.) (Oooo. "Bag of Bones." Doesn't that one ROCK?)
Actually, I think Jim's on to something. Imagine using up all that excess pig shit, cow shit, pigeon shit, bat shit, WHATEVER (or whomever) for making useable crayons/writing instruments. Bet there'd be money in that--okay STINKY money...
'Course, those fancy art markers are pretty stinky too. I hated using those. Forget the brand names; the ones you used to find a wall of in the artist supply stores. It was the fluid in them that stunk. Hmm..shit or alcohol, pick yer bodily fluid. (Somebody just mentioned bodily fluids?)
That's like using weed for teeshirts. We just had a store open in Osborne Village recently. I read about it the other day--wonder how it's doing. If you have a doctor's certificate of some kind, you can sit in the window and smoke weed--I'm not kidding. And Osborne; it's like one of your trendy little lifestyle yuppy areas.
Bet there'll be a kid's store soon, too. Have you noticed that with the Senza lingerie stores here in Canada? There's now a KIDS store. (No, I didn't check. Do they have baby bras? I'll tell you the next time I'm in that mall.)
Well, Citizen Kane is powered by both the directing and the script so I genuflect to both men--at least the men in their original guises as living beings.
------------------
Justin, the reason Hollywood doesn't make more movies like that is because the movie you spoke of was done in Spanish. Snicker.
-----------------
I forgot that, Night Of The Living Dead is another favorite b&w film. Nothing creepier in all the world than those fragmented faces coming out of the dark. And the scene with the zombie toddling in from the distance in the graveyard scene is a creepy beginning. Chills.
-------------------------
Run, don't walk, to see, The Panic Room. Scary and suspenseful as hell. Hitchcock would of been proud.
Berman:
If your interested in John Carpenters/Bill Lancasters re-adaptation (because its not a re-make, its taking from the same source material. Kind of like the excreable Payback is not a remake of Point Blank but adapts from Donald Westlake's excellent first Parker novel) you would do well to check out the BFI Modern Classic booklet on the film. I forget the author but it is worth looking out for.
As for what could have happened, I can direct you to Dark Horse Comics sequel to the film which was scripted by Chuck Pfarrer, a screenwriter whose previous credits were for Darkman and Navy Seals. I think its quite poor and is only worth seeking for curiosity value.
BTW - Depending on the concentration of alcohol in the bottle that MacCready passes over to Childs. There is a chance that any infection would have been killed off.
FAQ
Barney, ya make me laugh.
Heather
After reading yet another 'discussion' on manual versus electronic writing devices--I noticed some young person mentioned they'd known nothing BUT computers--sometimes, that's all it is; you've acquired an affinity for whatever kind of tool you use, be it scissors or knife--I'll toss in a few thoughts.
I'm making a guess here but I'll bet writers like Harlan Ellison thought of typewriters and they visualized an Ernest Hemingway-like character, hat set back on head, cigarette smoke swirling about him, liquor glass within reach, banging out articles for a Toronto newspaper deadline on his manual typewriter. I've got a different view. (Fancy that. Heh.)
When I thought of typewriters, manual or otherwise, I pictured a giggle of girls in the steno pool, tapping out somebody else's business. I hated the idea of learning to type. I never took typing in high school. To me, that meant becoming a secretary and the thought, however conscious or unconscious it was--I was gonna be a jock, a phys. ed. teacher, why would I need to type?--felt limiting.
I learned to type, off and on, due to some jobs I had that required it. Addressing labels, typing envelopes, doing invoices. Further yucky stuff, as far as I'm concerned.
I once bought a small electronic portable typewriter. Crappy little device. Too damn noisy--output like a capgun--I figured maybe manuals are noisy too--and I was constantly fiddling with the ribbon and cheesy correction tape.
My dad and I went in on a Commodore 64 computer. Coolness made manifest for fifteen hundred dollars. (64K, can you believe it? I'm not even sure how many MHz it was--just flipped through a flyer on the way here for a 299 MHz computer--I'm not even sure what that would FEEL like.) The keyboard was stiff and I don't feel I made a hell of a lot of progress on it but hey, it got me started. There've been more computer keyboards since then and the black Dell I'm typing on right now is absolutely edible. Yum.
I couldn't possibly see having a manual typewriter in my little apartment on Hargrave (which laughably, whose wood and walls continues to remind me of a Hemingway-like digs). I'd want to be able to type at night--like we did at the software geek's office in Brandon--the bunch of us, silently surfing and e-conversating well into the wee hours. Though my concentration (or would that be obsession?) is stronger now--I could probably type any time of the day or night--I'd want to be able to type without disturbing my upstairs neighbor--even though he's been disturbing ME nights with his drum playing, rap singing and ir-rhythmic music (I hear the bass not so much the music)--any time I wished.
Oh, one day soon, I'll move some place where noise is not an issue. One day soon (I hope) I'll have my own computer again--so I don't have to schlep in the snow to the university to compose on a keyboard--needless to say, I'm currently using a fine black or blue pen with a lined and bound pad to write down a few thoughts. But that's why _I_ don't use a manual typewriter.
To Joe Finn, re _Fail-Safe_. I can never watch that movie with a straight face, especially after having seen _Dr. Strangelove_. I'm sure it's a fine movie on its own, but it really doesn't hold up after Kubrick's assault.
Part of the problem is, frankly, it's liberal moralizing. The film's devoted to trying to find a reasonable band-aid for a truly horrible situation, and the decision to apply a "city for a city" was just, well, melodramatic. Kubrick's movie locates the problems not in mere policy or political ideology-- his film illustrates how the situation arises both from the logical inevitabilities of game theory _and_ some truly awful remnants of savagery in human nature.
For lovers of language, here's a site that'll give you a LOT of fun. http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
"I am full of goo! Victory goo!" -- Invader Zim
HARLAN THE ELLISON:
A quick question of curiousity, if you don't mind. How did you react seeing your face as a collection of houses, chimneys and trees with little soldiers crawling in and out of your ear on the front cover of THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON?
I mean, the very sight of that would make anyone's day...
Justin:
"I, of course, had never even heard of it before Dr. Soren brought it up in class."
Yes, you, me, and the rest of the world. I wasn't ever aware of it's existence until Harlan's war cry. What is it about LOST HORIZON that people keep forgetting as a mass whole? CITIZEN KANE, FRANKENSTEIN, etc. weren't burdened with the same curse. It's truly bizarre.
Anyone else want to bring up forgotten classics?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Oh, Harlan mentioned LOST HORIZON as one of his favorite black and white movies. Dr. Soren showed us that last week in class, and I can vouch for it. It was awesome. I, of course, had never even heard of it before Dr. Soren brought it up in class. Apparently he's pretty good friends with Jane Wyatt, and she used to come in and speak to the class back when she was able, but these days unfortunately she can't make it. I would have liked to have been there to hear her talk about the movie.
Okay, Washu wins for a much better (and creepier) take on that last scene.
*Shudder*
If anyone is fortunate enough to live in a city playing Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN, you're cheating yourself if you don't go see it. I suppose it's not for everybody, but it really is ASTOUNDINGLY good. Definitely the kind of picture Hollywood would never make.
I get to read all weekend because I have nothing else to do. First time all semester. I'll let you know if I finish anything worth reading.
J
P.A.,
SPOILER SPACE
Actually, from the editing of the movie, you can think that either (or neither) is infected. They just have no real way of being sure, so they're locked in a standoff. In the last few minutes of the movie, both are offscreen at certain times, so may have been infected. Just my two cents.
Come to think of it, that standoff gets resolved in the beginning of the X-Files episode "Ice," where the two guys in a standoff decide to end it by shooting themselves.
Regards,
Joseph
P.A. BERMAN: Okay, here we go:
The fact of the matter is EITHER one of them could be the Thing. We only know for certain that BOTH of them are not the Thing, or else they'd start formulating a plan to infect the rescue team when it arrives. The only possibilities left is that only one of them is the Thing, or neither of them is the Thing. Now, Childs (the Keith David character) has been missing for a considerable amount of time, and he could have easily been infected within that period. But, BUT, there's also a jump in the narrative after the camp has exploded, and then we see Macready (Kurt Russell) wandering about the burning remains. Macready could also have been infected...althought the chances are slimmer, since the last 'active' Thing we saw was blown to pieces by Macready.
My personal vote is that Macready is the Thing. Childs has the flame-thrower - if he was the Thing, he could just kill Macready right on the spot, freeze, and wait for the rescue team. So, Macready, being the Thing (IF he was the Thing, of course) had to find a way to infect Childs. Watch carefully the moment when Macready hands the bottle to Childs and CHilds takes a drink from it. Now, we know that it only takes a single cell from this creature to take over an entire organism, right? Now watch how Macready chuckles ever-so-slightly after Childs has taken a sip from the bottle. Game over, man.
Don't ask me to go over it again, or my brain will explode.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Someone mentioned THE THING, directed by John Carpenter. I have a question for those who've seen it
SPOILER SPACE
At the end, when Kurt Russell and that other guy are sitting in the little shed, waiting for the storm to come. Are we supposed to think that the other guy is The Thing? I realize it's a purposefully ambiguous ending, but I was wondering what other people came away with.
I am just now getting into Carpenter's movies... saw PRINCE OF DARKNESS last night. Crazy stuff.
Bermanator
I suppose keeping ones sword skills sharp, even by way of slicing up gourds mounted on sticks is necessary, even if it's not the most desired use of ones time.
Having said that - Boy that open letter was fun to read.
On the 'what we choose to write with' thread - whatever. I make notes in longhand and then transpose and expand them on a desktop PC. But the notes are for "real" writing - not this stuff. At least with the longhand notes I can pick my location of composition and I don't have to stare at the godamned screen so long.
Awhile back someone on this board hipped me to a program that makes a clunky old keysmash sound every time you strike a keyboard key. I tried it for a little while. It's a funny idea [and a perverse retro use of technology] but after a short time I dumped it. It seemed like every time I heard that sound coming from two Polk Audio speakers I kept thinking 'just who are we kidding here?" I see this writing tool discussion is sort of a compulsion however. I'm currently reading King's "Bag of Bones" as a break between to harder pulls and the main character, Mike Noonan, finds he can write again by reverting to his old IBM Selectric with the courier ball. Even finds himself sleep-walking with it at one point. This would be the fallback technology of King's generation. He also has a great bit with refrigerator magnet writing which, over and above moving the story along, is a great way of pointing out that writers will write if you just give them a stick and a beach. Throughout the entire novel he delves into the magic of not fucking with what works. I know Harlan usually eschews most or all superstition but I think there are a lot of writers who are otherwise rational people who fall into lucky socks syndrome when it comes to their writing. The ashtray thing for Harlan in the 1960's was a prime example of this.
Regarding the abrupt cessation of Harlan's half dozen b&w films [3 of which I have not seen and 2 of which I never heard of] my first thought was that he had pulled his hands away from the keyboard in horror at the prospect of being sucked into such a common internet thread. I would name the other common threads but summoning demons is risky business. Then I figured he left because he had left a hot-pocket in the microwave too long. But finally I decided Susan walked into the room and flashed 'em and all thought fled from his head and he had to go. ;-)
- Barney
Chuck: I like your list, given that Gold Rush and Day the Earth Stood Still were two I wanted to mention as not having been mentioned.
Lost Horizon, the restored version with the 25 minutes of new footage and/or soundtrack with still photographs. One of the arguments for restored movies. Shadow of a Doubt, Psycho and The 39 Steps for Hitchcock. Maybe The Lady Vanishes as well. I do like some of his earlier, funnier stuff. Modern Times, Sherlock Jr., The General and Swiss Miss and about fifty L&H two-reelers and Chaplin two-reelers. Miss could be interchangeable with any ten or 15 L&H films, except it's got the gorilla in the Swiss Alps, so I go with the gorilla.
Laura, with that great theme. The Manchurian Candidate, which looks lacquered and shinily menacing. Them and its haunted desert vistas. Stagecoach, with a shockingly young and loose John Wayne. High Sierra and doomed early-star Bogie and the weird, dangerous looking high-speed car chases. Rules of the Game and Grand Illusion, M and Fury, Potemkin and the Last Laugh. The Devil and Daniel Webster and Carnival of Souls, which would make a great double bill. Night of the Living Dead, which seems funnier and sadder every year. Things to Come, with its historic sweep and Massey orating and the funky space cannon. Just Imagine, as a reminder that big budget Hollywood misfires aren't a recent invention and that sfx were sometimes the only good thing in a movie from 1930. The Third Man. Kane and Ambersons and Touch of Evil, and also The Stranger. The Elephant Man.
Must drink coffee now -- Jon
From FAIL SAFE to: DR. STRANGELOVE. Both came out the same year. I'm just glad they DIDN'T end STRANGELOVE with the planned pie fight. Great B&W cinematography. Great names. General Jack D. Ripper.
I'd also nominate for best of B&W film: THE GENERAL, THE GOLD RUSH, WINGS, THE GREAT DICTATOR, THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN, YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN, THE QUATERMASS XPERIMENT, PEOPLE WILL TALK, KING KONG, RASHOMON AND SEVEN SAMURAI, AND....
TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. I cannot see this movie without crying. Just can't do it.
Rich:
I saw the "H. Salt Esq." site. That was the funniest goddamn thing I've seen on the web. Seriously, folks, you have GOT to see this! http://www.y2khai.com/images/khaiepisode.swf
Thank you Rich. That was good.
Andrew:
Thanks for the link to the RAMA site. Wow. Jean Giraud along with the rest of the talent. Mr. Clarke seems to be involved in some way. Now I'm cautiously optomistic. Cautiously.
Little Washu:
Glad you liked NIGHT OF THE HUNTER. You lucky fellow. All those things you get to experience for the first time. You're gonna LOVE it! HUNTER was Robert Mitchum's favorite film. Too bad Laughton didn't direct others. A loss.
Chuck
Standing ready to protect and defend our precious bodily fluids.
I've been watching a B&W movie that I think we've all been ignoring for greatness: "Fail Safe."
Henry Fonda just breaks my heart in this movie, and Walter Matthau as a cold calculating political scientist is a marvel to see.
Regards,
Joseph
Frank's defense of the Luddites is well-taken. Although the term is used today to characterize opponents of technology, people forget what the new technologies did to the agrarian lifestyle. Because labor was needed to work in the mills and on the looms, people who previously made their way through craftsman work were maneuvered into drudgery jobs that provided little pride in one's own handiwork.
Think of it this way. Imagine you're a writer, and you've made a decent living writing what -you_ want-- short stories, novels, essays, whatever. But the market's shifted, and suddenly instead of writers, they want "content providers" who can help fill up a website with new stuff every day. So you find yourself facing the possibility of cranking out dead writing for other people-- or taking a corporate job, writing boilerplate letters or ad copy. Granted, you can't smash the looms today, and it'd be futile, but the sentiment's exactly that of the Luddites.
To Frank, re Pauline kael's "Citizen Kane" book, which was recommended to you. Take Kael's piece with a grain of salt. She attempts to prove that the film's script was almost entirely the creation of Herman Mankiewicz, and reflects nothing of Orson Welles. (Welles, for his part, always hailed Mankiewicz's scriptwork, and gave him billing over his own name.) For defenses of Welles, I recommend biographies by Frank Brady and Barbara Leaming.
I swear to God - who wants to take Piazza off my hands? Make me an offer!
Regards,
Joseph
0-4....sheesh....
Heather,
Sigh.
I'm with you - I'm always in such a mood after my annual or so reading of "Something Wicked This Way Comes." it's a mood of crisp leaves, of the autumn of the soul, of the glorious light in the human heart, of the eternal vigilance against the darkness....
Great. Now I can't get the image of Jason Robards racing across an autumn landscape out of my head.
Regards,
Joseph
Writing is a discipline. You can use crayon on the back of a chewed napkin so long as you write and write well.
I've just come back...no..I've just come down from visiting Ray Bradbury in his basement. There's a set of video shorts on his namesake's web site--I'm sure a lot of you have seen it.
*Sigh*
Perhaps it's my mood, or perhaps it's what he talked about...being a kid..ravines..short stories..Halloween every day..daughters...burning books...firemen helmets..his dad's stetson hanging on the wall...skulls..a painting that started a friendship...I dunno..
I know it ain't much but I guess cos he made enough of an impression on me in what I've read so far of Ray Bradbury..I really enjoyed visiting with him.
Long life, Ray. Thank you for all your books.
Heather
To all;
I'm a "to each his/her own" kind of person, and agree that the choice of tools is irrelevant so long as the passion to create remains.
That's it on the subject at hand from here.
Andrew: No problem with the aunt. Sculptor, potter, what's in a name? As for the wheel and my kiln, I gots me a big strong man who mutters curses under his breath as he gets his dolly to move either so I can clean under them. Makes it so much easier one this little person, me.
Still, like all good throwers, she loved it very much and that's what matters. But I do agree with her; manual is best. Besides, I got a good whack of change reselling the electric at Ebay.
"God made mud,
God got lonesome,
So God said to some of the mud, 'Sit up!'" - Kurt Vonnegut
Good Night to all, Melissa
I figure choice of writing tools is like religion, if it works for you, then great, just don't expect this sour sonovabiscuit to get the same experience. Some people swear that they have a "deeper connection" with their words when they're handwritten, or typed on some ancient mechanical monstrosity, or chicken-scratched in shorthand with your toes ... Whatever works! Hell, I work with computers. I grew up with the bastard machines. I hate spell check and grammar check and cut and paste and all the other bells and whistles tha get shoved onto the word-processing software. I do, however, like the delete button. And no, I do not believe that handwriting or typewriting entails greater commitment to a word, and greater care about words choices than a computer. Handwritten words can be scratched out. White-out has been available for years. Delete is more convenient, but it also means you have more time to mull over a word. Committing to a word takes strength, but it takes more strength to cut it out.
I actually envy people that can get away with handwriting essays and stories. I'll tell you, if I had better penmanship, I'd love to be able to relax in a comfy chair with a yellow pad and a pen and just write. Typing ain't really conducive to curling up with a steaming cup of cocoa while you write.
I want to throw another B&W into the mix: Key Largo. Bogart the hero, man. Bogart the hero.
---Peter
Just an FYI for those of you living in LA, Ray Bradbury will be on KCRW @ 6:30pm, on Warren Ullney's Which Way LA. Apparently our good mayor Hahn has picked Farenheit 451 for our "One City, One Book" campaign.
Alex~ You can probably guess by my domain name that I'm really into "Found Art" or "Junk Art". This typewriter would look cool anywhere, in my book.
L.
Regarding typewriters vs. pc's~ All I can add to the melee is this; A craftsman uses those tools that work best for him (or her). Nail guns are nifty, but I know many wood workers who still prefer the 'ole standard. The same goes for any tool. I must admit though, I'm a sucker for complex machinery (old and new). So, I am curious about whether or not my desire for an old manual is a need for something to tinker with, or if it's a need on my part to learn to use a different tool.
Frank~ To add to your note about the internet; The internet's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. Any idiot with a little money (sometimes not even that), a little free time, and a little skill with a computer, can publish on the internet. Sturgeon's Law applies. 90% of the content on the 'net is crap. Unfortunately, most people either, don't know, or don't care enough to filter out all of the shit. (see Frank, we can get along sometimes ::grin::).
P.A.B.~ One additional note about Primerica. You might try their website at:
http://www.primerica.com
Melissa~ I understand your need to use a half ton (I exaggerate) of concrete, wood, and steel instead of one o' them new fangled motorized widgets. My aunt (well, former aunt, by marriage) was a sculptor of clay (I just can't call her a potter. Artist, maybe, but not potter). Between her immense kick-wheel, and her equally immense kiln, she needed quite a truck when it came to moving. Unfortunately, diabetes made it necessary for her to give it all up. Many people tried to convince her to move to an electric wheel, but she would have none of it. A true artist, she used the tools that worked best *for her*.
-Andrew
Just an FYI. Turner Classic Movies is running Solaris tonight. Thought I remembered somebody from the group saying they were looking for this one. Think it's scheduled for 1 AM Central.
Bests,
TR
After catching up on today's posts, I realize I neglected to mention the typewriter site I'd contacted. I like the pics there, too: http://mrtypewriter.tripod.com/ is the place. He's got a nice auction on eBay right now, too.
Lurk, mytypewriter.com is a great place, too.
Bill
A.J. BERMAN: I don't hate MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. I didn't say that. And I haven't even seen ANATOMY OF A MURDER. I do not despise remakes as long as they make an effort to be an entity of genuine quality by themselves. THE THING, THE FLY, and INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS are primary examples. I was looking forward to PLANET OF THE APES so badly, and was immediately crushed by what I saw.
I just mentioned SEVEN SAMURAI off the top of my head. Maybe it wasn't the best example.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
CINDY: De nada.
LYNN: No, not really; it needs some Oomph! If it were made into a planter, or something--or at LEAST waterproofed--that would be fine. Right now, it's Found Art--something I never really had much truck with. If it were made into something, it could be a better art--Junk Art, perhaps.
Typewriters are instruments of Art--good or bad--and should be treated as such.
(Granted, I have a Thirties accordion Kodak (in working condition) on display in my living room, but there's a mitigating factor: It was my grandfather's, so it's not just there to look cool.
(Which, admittedly, it does ...)
Alex Jay Berman,
Thank you for the birthday wish.
:)
Cindy
Alex~ Would knowing that that typewriter has seen its glory days and now resides in the front yard of a little vacation house on Catalina Island do anything to alleviate the pain?
L.
WASHU MINOR: Yeah, but there have been myriad remakes and reinterpretations of SEVEN SAMURAI--some even good on their own terms. It's to be expected.
(And MAG SEVEN was one of the good ones ...)
Look, would you hate ANATOMY OF A MURDER simply because it was a round-eyed RASHOMON?
THE TYPEWRITER LINK: Ouch. What I want is a '30s-'50s Underwood or Olympia. I have to start hitting flea markets again (My Fifties manual portable has started to die).
P.A. BERMAN: I know, brother. My own crabbed writing is bad and cramps hell out of my hand as well. What's odd is that sketching--with the same pencil--doesn't annoy at all (except when I can't capture something just right).
FRANK CHURCH: Ever read THE CITIZEN KANE BOOK by Pauline Kael? It includes the full script and a lot of Kael's writing on the movie.
(And well said on the Luddites.)
LYNN: Oh, that picture hurts to look at. If the typewriter is TRULY dead, what I would want to do is shine it up, weld and screw some matching black metal sheets onto it, and make it into a display box.
Mind you, that's only after you've cannibalized the insides for parts and ONLY if there's no hope of repair.
"Words are the exit wounds of silence."
I'm impatient, so I like the ease of a computer. And the paper waste when you make mistakes is mind numbing.
I was curious if Harlan still thinks writing isn't an actual "job"? He says it is hard work, but has said in the past that writing is not as noble as being a plumber, or a fireman. What does everyone else say?
In the article Jim gave us (thank you kind sir), Frank Conroy writes, "The temptation is simply to assemble language and forgo the hard work of trying to penetrate it."
Food for the brain.
L.
Regards.
Speaking things writing, The Assistant found this item while using my computer (while I was madly writing with pencil and pad):
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/08/books/08CONR.html?ex=1019635292&ei=1&en=1ac435ff3d07a4f2
Until next time. . .
David Niven/DTS
You ARE yare!
And again, I must add that other line from The Philidelphia Story:
I'm beholden, MOST beholden,
Cindy
DTS: At times, I'm so full of it my eyes are brown. ;)
Favorite Black and White films: Currently, The Seven Samurai, Yojimbo/Sanjuro, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Harvey, The Bishop's Wife, An Affair to Remember, Penny Serenade... Ask me again tomorrow and I'll give you different answers...
Typewriter - love the feel, too clumsy to use without a gallon of white-out in a handy overhead bin with attached feeder hose.
PA~ I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between a story written on a PC or one written on a typewriter, but I bet you a dollar Harlan could.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and "guess" that Robert Jordan didn't write the Wheel of Time series on a typewriter.
L.
Frank, lighten up dude. I never slandered the Luddites. Just joshing everyone for their concern about the effects of technology on the writing process.
Could you tell if a story was written by hand or on a computer? Betcha couldn't, and that's the bottom line. Whatever you need to do to channel the muse, do it. Writers write.
Bermanator
High stress job! Chocolate Biscuits!!!
L.
Sheesh. I actually agree with Frank's last post, which was reasoned and well said. Bodes for a good weekend, no?
Regards,
Joseph
I get annoyed when people throw out the term, "Luddite" and never once think of reading the history of this organization. The Luddites in fact were not anti-technology, per se, but they did have a fear that technology, could be used to make man obsolete in the work environment. This is a real fear, since robot technology is on the rise, and is making factory jobs scarce. The Luddites basically didn't want man to be reduced to being another machine.
So in keeping, Luddites didn't hate technology, they worried about technology being used to undermine human potential. So no more Luddite bashing, ok?
Cake or Death?
Lynn -
http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/underwood_no_5.jpg
You're absolutely right. A beautiful machine, even in its state of decay.
Casablanca is the superior movie to most of the picks so far--except for Citizen Kane--which is the best movie ever made, period. This is my law and I am sticking by it.
This scruffy despot bows and exits.
------------------------------
The internet can be used in either a good way or a bad way, it matters the intellect of the person online. I feel the internet is a nessesary tool for information finding--especially since corporate media is becoming such a monopolized monster. Free thought and censorless communication is what makes the web indispensible. I mean how would some person who lives in the back woods know what was going on in the world if he didn't have a computer?
------------------------------
Brian, the Nation is more radical left in my opinion. The Public Interest is more mainstream liberal, as is the Washingtonian.
Bermanator, here are some more ideas: Extra, which is the magazine for Fairness And Accuracy In Reporting is real good at exposing corporate media bias. Plus they report stories noone else dare.
Utne Reader is good, so is Adbusters, which is an amazing, glossy magazine putting down corporate culture in quite humorous and thought provoking ways.
Also, don't forget my favorite news websight.
http://www.zmag.org
-----------------------------------
Lynn, saw the Week and wasn't very impressed. It is not much diffrent from Time or Newspeak. You see, I need meat with my reporting, young lady!
I just want you to know I hate you all. I hate you with a passion. You're talking to a hardcore gadget junkie, and the pitiful manual I just bought isn't gonna cut it. I thought it would suffice. I was doing just fine. THE METHADONE WAS WORKING. But Lurk, my friend, you just crossed the line by posting that link.
Holy St.Vermouth on a pogo stick, those are some tantalizing bits of clockwork glory. I don't have the time, space, or CA$H to indulge this little addiction, but do you heartless people care? Not one whit. I'm sick, I know it. I need help. Most women would rather have the red silk teddy from the Victoria's Secret catalog. Me, I'm lusting over the red portable Underwood, circa 1926.
I gotta get out more. "Computers GOOD. Meetings GOOD. Cubicle GOOD."
L.
HE's comments about the physicality of using a manual typewriter for creation are well-taken. One could have their cake and eat it to by doing the first draft on the manual (letting the juices flow, so to speak), do needed pencil revisions and edits, and then later prepare the final draft for submission on the word processor...many editors prefer digital copies for submissions these days anyway, especially if you're not as famous (and thus pre-sold) as HE.
Great site for manual typewriter buffs:
www.mytypewriter.com
BERMAN: Checked out the AKIRA remake news myself. In his own words: Mr. Norrington's take on AKIRA “preserves the tone, the visual and the epic scope of the original, whilst telling a somewhat more accessible story.”
i.e. "I'm a big, goofy clown, folks! Somebody slap a custard pie in my face, puh-leez! U-huk-u-huk-u-huk-u-huk!"
I got yer 'more accesible' right here, fella...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Little Washu: Go to ebay and enter "manual typewriter." Also, Olympia still makes a portable manual C, it's made with lots of plastic parts, though. Olivetti makes three different typewriters, one with plastic parts, and two that are mostly or all metal. Other than that, thrift shops, Salvation Army stores, and garage sales... but, currently there are several nice vintage models on ebay. I'm slavering at just thought of 'em. R.Wilder
A.J. BERMAN: Nononononononononono. The 'zenith of crass stupidity' is the remake of SEVEN SAMURAI in the works. Duh, gee whiz, has anyone in Hollywood seen THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN?
With all this talk of writing tools, be they computer or typewriter or inked feather, I might as well ask this question now: Does anyone here know where I may be able to purchase a sturdy manual typewriter? I haven't worked with one ever since I fooled around with my Dad's between the age of 10-15, and I have to agree with Harlan the CLUNK-CLUNKITY-CLUNK is somehow more fulfilling and 'manly' than the TIK-TIK-TIKTIKTIK of a keyboard. I HATE it when the keys on a typewriter get jammed, though. I personally like to keep both aspects of the new and the old wherever I go.
Just saw NIGHT OF THE HUNTER. My initial impression is one of uncertainty, to be honest. Powell (Robert Mitchum) is given a little too much of an 'evil' intro. The very first shot of him in the car is assisted with an immediate, foreboding BA-BA-BUMMMMMM on the soundtrack. You couldn't have given Dr. Doom a more sinister entrance. The thing about monsters like Reverend Powell is that you never see them coming, unless you have very keen eyes. There are very few people with such eyes; John and Mrs. Cooper (Lillian Gish) are such people.
I was atcually surprised after watching the film that Shelley Winters was given second billing right under Mitchum. Her role in the movie is pivotal, but quite small when you think about it. Nevertheless, she gave a great performance. The moment I really started loathing Powell was when he began turning Shelley's character into a helpless, cringing wretch of a woman.
I think Charles Laughton overdid it a bit on the 'arty' lighting and sets, but when it works, it REALLY works. Great movie, well worth the rental.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
On the subject of crappy remakes:
According to the Hollywood Reporter, Stephen Norrington was just signed by Warner Brothers to write and direct a Western adaptation of Katsuhiro Otomo's "Akira".
One simple question:
WHYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?
Norington comes with SOME pedigree, mind; he directed the original BLADE and is doing the adaptation of Alan Moore's LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN--but this is just the absolute zenith of crass stupidity ...
Lurk wrote:
" 'or feces on your bedroom wall' We could draw the line here. Work has no value if its not being read, and no-one's gonna pop over to read your...wall."
NOW somebody tells me.
Re: Computers vs. Typewriters: I am an all-around radio jock; news anchor, music director, Jazz dj; when I write news copy at work the PC is an invaluable tool, and I wouldn't for the life of me go back to the days of carbon, and hand-cut copy and paste.
But... I luvvv my Olympia manual Deluxe typewriter, German made, circa the 1950's. At home, when writing letters, stories, or just random thoughts, it is the physical gas, the spontaneous combustion, an act of joy that is removed from my skills at the electronic keyboard. Purchased at the local Salvation Army for $20.00, and in mint condition; replacing my battered old Smith Corona from the mid-70's. For me, the manual typewriter nourishes creative writing; the computer is efficient for news copy. R.Wilder
For those who believe the good writer will be a good writer even if he uses dry erase markers and rolls of saran wrap, I respectfully must disagree. I go back and forth between my 'puter and hand-written stuff. The manual I bought off Ebay sits unserviced in a corner of my living room (it needs work). From my own experience, a writer is only as good as his final draft. And as with any creative output, be it music or sculpture or painting, how you arrive at that final draft plays a huge part in the process. With a computer, all of your thoughts are instantly captured, as fast as they can come out of your little fingers. Logorrhea? Is that the term? You can go back and fiddle with it endlessly. When writing by hand, the task takes on a sacred quality that I can not adequately explain. I can only theorize that typing is somewhere between the two, allowing for readable copy that has been stripped of any vacuous extra. When you can not easily backspace over your mistakes (as I must do thousands of times when I compose this little throwaway), each word, each phrase, each paragraph must be composed before it is committed to the paper. And there's no spellcheck, either (cheaters).
I have a picture of an old beat-to-shit Underwood No. 5 hanging in my cube, and to my eye, such a regal machine appears almost a shrine to the word.
(http://www.digitalcarrion.com/pics/underwood_no_5.jpg)
L.
...or "Libeled Lady."
KInd of surprised no one mentioned "Sullivan's Travels"
All,
I'll admit, as much as I love my G4 for digital video & image work (y'all should see the tiger paintings I got in from Andy Lee for prospective logos for my film company), I do have one throwback item that I cherish. A lovely green Waterman fountain pen that I fill from the bottle. Smooth writing, firm grip, nice and sold in my hand (especialyl compared to these crappy ballpoints these days). Works beautifully and leaves and nice solid classic line on the page. Writing on it with heavier-than-usual paper is a dream.
Sadly, I can't find it for a week now, and it's really making me cranky and sad. Not "hey I can't find the baby" sad, but down in the dumps nonetheless.
Regards,
Joseph
My first writing tool (beside my #2 Ticonderoga and the 64-color Crayola box) was a Smith-Corona manual made for kids...some model made between 1976 and 1978. I beat the hell out of it. It always punctured the paper on "i"s and "j"s. and jammed every time I wrote a word containing the combination "q" and "u".
I also got a hold of a reporter's old suitcase S/C which weighed in at approximately six tons. I never took it anywhere, but wrote about 50 pages one weekend mostly because I loved the spread of the keyboard and the heavy, but very gratifying "click/THUNK click/THUNK" of the keys and hammers.
For my 12th or 13th birthday, the Smith-Corona was replaced by a new, electric Brother with 32-character preview display and 100-character storage. But it only printed on thermal paper (like the old fax machines of the day). It was pretty damn cool. EXPENSIVE to maintain, but man that thing sounded like a machine gun when you pressed "Autotype" and it took off burning letters into the paper.
But then... A Vic-20, a TRS-80 Color Computer 2, Color Computer 3, and finally Windows machines. Of these, the color computers from Tandy were connected to a Daisy-Wheel printer the size of an infant car seat. It wasn't the same, but that "tak-snakka-takatakataka-snak-snakatak" was a nice, heavy sound and it took so long I could be out the door, up the street and well into some Nintendo game at my friend's house before it printed five pages.
I have to admit, I'm spoiled by backspace and drag-n-drop editing. When I'm on a good run, I can clock a humble 65-70 wpm, but I usually trip up once or twice a line even now. (In terms of words per minute, I once pissed off my typing teacher who told me she could type 120 wpm and I replied, "Well, what if the words we use are a lot larger, you know...on average?")
Spellcheck and Grammarcheck are other temptations I try to avoid, but I admit spellcheck makes me lazy, which is evident on sites like this, where I'm forced to use my brain and manually edit closer than usual.
Now, I use MS Word 2000 and a Xerox 4525 or N17 printer at work. For larger volume jobs, I connect to a digital ImageRunner 600.
I won't even get into the Palm Pilot I've ordered...that's a whole new world.
Hello, all, thought I'd come in a minute.
Mr. Ellison et al, re technology; Ten years ago, that lovin' man-o-mine bought for me a three speed electric potter's wheel. It hasn't even managed to leave the crate it was delivered in. Maybe it's my zen, to feel of the pump of my leg to get the wheel in motion; the connection I have to the kinetics of the wheel and knowing intuitively how slow or fast a rate of spin I require; the pressure I feel in the hand against the slow growing clay as I throw. I am immersed in the process, so aware of being part of creativity, rather than its master. The only experiences I can think of where I'm more integrated into what I'm doing that I can recall are sex and childbirth, with pottery being a close second to those in a sense of accomplishment as well.
With that minor piece of profound, my six favorite B&W films:
Ikiru
The Shop on Main Street
Psycho
Invasion of The Body Snatchers
Citizen Kane
Sunset Boulevard
Notorious
M
Modern Times
Oh well, as the old joke goes; There are three types of people in this world; Those who can count, and those who can't.
Love to All, Melissa
Howdy, folks, hope no one here minds me weighing in with a few more black and white faves ... And mind you, this is all just stuff that LOOKS absolutely beautiful in b+w. If'n I had to pick my fave pics of all time that just happened to be filmed in b+w, my poor widdle head would probably explode.
So ... I can't stop thinking about THE SEA WOLF (directed by Michael Curtiz, I think) or Carol Reed's ODD MAN OUT or any of Anthony Mann's crime films (especially, what's it? THE T-MEN) or THE SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS or John Huston's THE RED BADGE OF COURAGE. There's NIGHT OF THE HUNTER and NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD and, and, and ...
And I dunno, I better stop now, cause I'm scared of what'll happen if I really get going.
Jim,
Whoopsie dasie. I have to train myself to look that up each and every time, because I have a really bad tendency to screw it up. Strange, considering it's one of my all-time-no-bullshit favorite movies, eh?
Regards,
Joseph
Konnichi wa, folks!
HARLAN ELLISON: Kurosawa's THRONE OF BLOOD. Good lord. Awesome awesome awesome awesome AWESOME movie. The final 'death by arrows' sequence is unbelievable. Dare I say it - Akira took one step ahead of Shakesepare himself b making the Macbeth character (Washizu...uh oh...coincidence?) die like a miserable dog instead of at least dying in battle with Macduff with honour.
THE HAUNTING TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE - Humphrey Bogart as a cheating, pathetic loser. What a jump from CASABLANCA. That expression on his face after he's dragged the donkeys across the desert and then sees the stream of water - fantastic! THE HAUNTING...Markway, Luke and Theodora watching in horror as the door is pushed outwards by whatever's behind it...FREAKY!!! I guess you avoided the 1999 version by Jan De Bont. Pity me. I didn't. (Liam Neeson was decent, though...he seemed to be at least TRYING...)
My onw favourite black and white film isn't really a classic...depending on your POV, of course. David Lynch's ERASERHEAD. Never have I seen B&W utilized to such a powerful and eerie degree in that movie. I'm sure there are others, they're just not coming to meright now. Almost any episode of classic TWILIGHT ZONE and OUTER LIMITS makes me happy...then there's the 1960's episodes of DOCTOR WHO...
Speaking of B&W, I've just rented NIGHT OF THE HUNTER and about to pop it into the VCR. Wish me luck, Webderlanders.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I have to admit that most of my writing, in fact, my best writing, comes when I'm on a 'puter, staring at that flickering white screen. But I'm still a relative young'un and grew up with at least one computer in the house at any given time, so I grew up with the technology. Besides, my handwriting is so atrocious that I was told from an early age I had to be a doctor when I grew up.
There is something magical about the sound and rhythm of a typewriter in high-gear, but I found that the tick-tick-tick of a typewriter and the rhythms that jump inside my head sometimes battle each other for my attention, and I prefer my stories and poems read with the rhythms from my head than from the typewriter.
---Peter
Re: Insomnia. Chess instruction videos, especially those geared to higher levels. Works for my wife every time.
>or feces on your bedroom wall<
We could draw the line here. Work has no value if its not being read, and no-one's gonna pop over to read your...wall.
I have found Mr. Salt, Esq.
http://www.y2khai.com/images/khaiepisode.swf
Oops--that's HIS GIRL FRIDAY, not MY GIRL FRIDAY. (It's all your fault, Joseph.)
RICH: Oh, I agree. Whether it's a Mac, or an Olympia, or a pen and a yellow legal pad, or feces on your bedroom wall, it ultimately doesn't matter, as long as THE WORK GETS DONE. As the song says, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right, it's all right...
*sigh* Speaking of: Anyone have a good cure for insomnia? (Reading Burton's THE ANATOMY OF MELANCHOLY usually does the trick, but it ain't workin'...)
Speaking of Woody and BW movies-did anyone ever see 'Zelig'? Sort of a preForrest Gump scenario, well worth searching out. Also for Hitchcock fans, try on "Shadow of a Doubt" and "Suspicion". None of these seem to have made it to VHS/DVD but I could be wrong. If you liked "The Maltese Falcon" try "High Pacific" (recently on TCM) which employs many of the same actors. TGIF, ya'll!
JOSEPH:
MY GIRL FRIDAY is the superior movie.
Yours, The Contrarian.
Ok. At the risk of prompting yet another Ellison rant of how we don't listen to him and Jesus Christ just stop with the computer bullshit for the love of Pete (and who is Pete, by the way?) Ellison has his way of writing and others have their way of writing and others will always be looking for the ever-so rare love of a good sheep, I must say this:
Whether using a typewriter (manual or electric) or a computer with a word processing program, the writer is using a tool. Some writers, such as Harlan Ellison prefer the manual typewriter. Some writers use the computer. All tools. No big deal. I don't think that anything is better written using one or the other as opposed to the WRITER being a good writer. A good writer will use crayon and the grocery bag (paper or plastic? paper---I'm writing a sequel to Moby Dick) if need be. Suffice to say, the tool don't matter, but the writer does.
Please please please please I am not advocating one over the other, though I would strongly suggest that when sending in grocery bags with your world-class prose to the magazine of your choice that proper postage be applied. It's your tool; use it how you wish. (and no jokes, please. I didn't mention Todd's "little boys with big bouncy balls" so I'm asking the same courtesy...though, I think Rick's website will get a few more hits from the pedophiles out there)
Alex,
Oh, I don't think anyone was dissing "Casablanca." In my case, I was just mentioning my favorite (I don'think anyone would claim "My Girl Friday" is the superior movie). Personally, if I had to pick a favorite B&W scene, it would be Cary Grant giving his bizarre advice to Bill Powell the 1st time he meets him....or maybe hiding the accused murderer in the rolltop desk...or Cary Grant remarking that the last person who tried to cross him was Arthur Leach...oh hell, the whole thing is a gem.
Harlan,
You've managed to hit one of my lifetime desires. Ever since I ran across The Khazneh in a high-school Latin text photograph, I've wanted to go over there and experience such a beautiful piece of architecture in person.
Regards,
Joseph
[yawning, scratching private places in public parts] Oh, again, an explanation is required for my outbursts. Hmmm. Actually, I was thinking since television is dying further it would be appropriate IF Harlan Ellison were present, if for no other reason than to explain HOW TO WRITE GOOD TELLYBUSHION. I know, I know. Too much to ask.
Until next time. . .
I just re-read my last posting, the one that has the sentence "Little boys with big bouncy balls".
Please, people, and you know who you are.......let me head you off at the pass and say: No off color jokes necessary. OK? Sheesh, I need to proofread these friggin' things.
-TODD
Re: typewriters and 'puters
It's strange that whenever I get things in my mind, others pop in here and talk about it. I work at a bus station on weekends, selling tickets. There's not much to do so I always have one or two books, a magazine, and a notebook. The thing was, though, after writing one or two things by hand, I didn't want to write while I was there. Now my job pretty much entails me being paid an obscene amount of money for buzzing people into the bathroom, selling an occasional ticket, reading, you get the idea. So I decided to bring an Olivetti Lettera 25 that I got a few years back from my wife's grandmother. I would've brought the Royal Quiet DeLuxe with me but it's beginning to die. I'd thought the Olivetti was broken but a quick inspection proved that I hadn't tightened the clamp on the ribbon. So I brought it and friggin' loved it! Oh, the music we made behind the window/mirror while the drunks and losers slept on benches, travellers sipped from styrofoam coffee cups. I...loved...it.
The thing is, it's a second-hand typewriter and I think it's at the end of its life. So I looked into a place online that sells manual typewriters and decided to ask about an Olympia portable. About $200 and s&h. Well, I say, I'll save up...
Anyway, I still write on the computer. I hate using the term "word processor" and prefer saying "word composer" though people look at me funny when I do. But, man, I love working on the manual typewriter, too.
There was a shop near where I grew up that repaired and sold refurbished typewriters. They closed about three years ago. There's a chiropractor there now. That's why I've had to come on the Internet to find a typewriter. Speaking of which, I found that Olympia still makes manual typewriters and they don't go for too much. I don't know if I should try one of the new ones or save for an older refurbished one. I want to have something that lasts a while. Oh, well.
This is beginning to ramble. Let me leave now before someone starts tossing the tomatoes.
Bill
If I had to pick one, single, solitary, list-one-dammit-not-10 favorite black and white movie it would be THE THIRD MAN. I drool everytime I hear that zither. Beautiful movie. Welles in the shadows. Cuckoo clocks. Little boys with big bouncy balls. Shadows. Sewers. Absolutely wonderful craziness. I saw this movie for the first time in college in one of those crappy film study courses, around 1982, and I'll be damned if I haven't seen it at least 4 times a year since. In fact, thanks to this damn board, I'm going to have to go home tonight and pull out my Criterion Edition DVD again. I have no time tonigh, you Bastards!
-TODD
'lo folks. Been lurkin' in these parts for quite a while but never had anything useful to say, so I didn't. Still don't, but I guess I'll clumsily lurch into the spotlight for a fleeting moment just to say that, like many of you, I've long admired and devoured Harlan's tasty fare, licking clean the plate and coming back for seconds. His writing has taken me to places that I never knew existed, and I'm grateful for that. It's wonderful to see that there are others of a similar vein still out there too, keeping the fire lit. Anyway, I'm back to the shadows again, just wanted to poke my nose in here briefly. I will be back when I have something decent to add to the many thought-provoking, always stimulating conversations found here.
CINDY: A belated Happs to you.
(Working the nightside, I miss so much ...)
FAVES: I'll stick to movies not yet mentioned, but I CANNOT believe that my favorite movie has not yet been cited: CASABLANCA. THE MALTESE FALCON, too. YANKEE DOODLE DANDY. CABIN IN THE SKY. There'd be a lot more musicals here, but I'm a Gene Kelly fan, and most of his were in color. THE MARK OF ZORRO, just like Bruce Wayne. DOUBLE INDEMNITY--it's great to see Captain Marvel as a wiseacre cynic. The Any Marx Brothers flick made between 1930 and 1940. Harold Lloyd flicks. ACE IN THE HOLE (a.k.a. THE BIG CARNIVAL).
But to derail the listing for a moment--what feelings abound a-board for more RECENT black-and-whites? RAGING BULL, anyone? PI?
And I will admit to getting ANSIBLE via e-mail--it's worth a half-a-minute read, if only for "Thog's Master Class", in which horribly BAD lines or paragraphs are taken from otherwise good writers' books. A lot of sf/f writers I know howl in delight at seeing their clunkers held to the light.
LONEGUNGIRL: That reminds me of a Dave Barry article that almost made me piss my pants with laughter. It was on misheard rock lyrics, and it had a classic take on the first verse of the Beach Boys' "Help Me, Rhonda":
"Well since she put me down,
I've got owls puking in my bed..."
RE HARLAN'S WORDS ON USING COMPUTERS TO WRITE: At the risk of sounding ass-kissey: Amen. I've owned PCs for over a decade now, and they STILL feel unnatural as Hell to me. I am removed and even alienated from my words when using a computer, and that NEVER happens with a typewriter or a pen/pencil. It's as though there's a foot-thick block of lucite between me and the screen. The whole experience just seems...STERILE, for lack of a better term.
Why is this so? Well, the problem with using a word processing program of any kind is that it must be viewed ON A COMPUTER MONITER. And let's face it folks, that's practically the same thing as watching a TV screen. (If you're using WebTv, that's EXACTLY what it is.) Whether it's cathode ray, liquid crystal, or a newer technology, it's still a process of beaming light directly to the retina, as opposed to receiving REFLECTED light from a printed page. Now, I don't have any hard data on hand, but I believe that the two ways of reading/viewing are intrinsically unalike, and cause different physiological effects on the brain. Reflected data seems to invite long periods of rumination and concentration, while beamed data is more suited to brief spurts of cursory reading. (How many people here routinely print out Web articles of medium-or-longer length to read offline?)
I don't even have to rely on my gut for this. My EYES start throbbing in discomfort after fifteen minutes of online time, even with a bloody anti-glare filter over the screen.
So, I understand where Harlan is coming from, very well.
MICHAEL: Belated congratulations on the news concerning our friend, Sick Fuck-Who-Likes-To-Disfigure-Young Women. Let's hope that, in addition to serving coffee as the new prag on the cell block, he, um, tosses a few salads as well. (And if you don't know what sicko prison practice I'm referring to, e-mail me for info, as it's too disgusting to recount here.)
My favorite B&W movies? Off the top of my head, I'd have to say anything by Orson Welles, particularly THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS, which has shadows so rich and black that you could crawl right into them. Stanley Cortez was the DP on that film, as well as THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER, another classic that I've rhapsodized about before. Also, SECONDS and SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS, both photographed by the great James Wong Howe. And then there's Igmar Berman, and his wonderful films of the 60's: THE SILENCE; WINTER LIGHT; THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY; and HOUR OF THE WOLF. Oh, and how could I forget...
You know, I read those lists both times, just to see if it was going to be more of the ever-changing "ten best" lists?...
Harlan, perfectly understandable about the computer stuff-- but it's an interesting issue for me, so I _WILL_ discuss it a little. But not to do any conversion for the cybernetic sects.
I remember when I began using a word processor. I had to keep remembering a lot of bizarre codes for things like italics and boldface and so on. It became part of the flow, but for a while it felt like a combination of writing and actually hand-setting the lead type on a Gutenberg press.
I understand the distancing, but I don't experience it in the same way. It's very strange, but there's a different feel between writing narrative, and writing for Internet chatter like this page or newsgroups. When I'm writing for newsgroups, there's no distancing at all. It feels immediate, and I have a strong sense of writing directly to the people reading what I'm writing. (But they're also replying damn quickly, so it feels more like a conversation.)
But when I've tried narrative, that "distance" crops up. I think it has something to do with the ability to fine-tune things, because it's very easy to get wrapped up in finding the Perfect Word. When you put something into a typewriter, you'd better be ready to commit it to paper. So maybe the act of typing out a fully-formed sentence is more fluid than the computer-fueled alternative, i.e., typing in a few variations, moving bits of them around, and settling on the final result. Or, conversely, computer users don't have as much of a reason to cultivate the ability to develop well-formed sentences before letting them out of their skulls.
And reading narrative isn't just information-scanning; it's an _experience_, which seems to require a loss of control on the part of the reader. It's supposed to be something _complete_, rather than the back-and-forth chatter of a newsgroup. So maybe the over-control and the malleability that a computer offers helps create that distance.
(I remember an interview with William Burroughs, where he said he could tell which writers were using word processors and which ones used typewriters. The former tended to write in shorter paragraphs, with well-encapsulated thoughts, and with an apparent dislike for long, floridly-written paragraphs. So maybe it's a function of having only a screen's area to work with as well.)
On the other hand, writing nonficton seems to suit me very well on the computer. That's because years of office support work have given me some valuable skills with footnotes, indented quotes, the ability to structure a document for an argument, and lots more. Maybe it's applying an engineering outlook to both reporting of facts and arrangement of parts, I dunno.
I'd also like to add that my handwriting is about as legible as the Dead Sea Scrolls would be if you put them in an industrial-grade blender and snapped it on "Puree." So I'm sort of wedded to mechanical aid here.
An idle thought--although I've heard/seen it used often enough, it occurs to me that I don't really know what a "bitchslap" is, or how it differs from a regular slap.
Also, as Dave Berry would say, "drooling nubian mameluke goombahs" is a very good name for a rock band.
FRANKENSTEIN and Sunset Boulevard have to go on my list too.
Frakenstein with the little girl by the water was horrifying to me as a child.
Cindy
Harlan,
If you're still around at the moment and have the inclination.
The word " yar", do you know it?
I think I got it right but I don't have a dictionary in the house that has it.
cindy
Oops.
My six most favorite black&white movies are:
THE TRAIN
LOST HORIZON
BRUTE FORCE
THE THIRD MAN
SECONDS
TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE
SUNSET BOULEVARD
YOJIMBO
THRONE OF BLOOD
HIGH NOON
MODERN TIMES
THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE
THE HAUNTING
LONELY ARE THE BRAVE
FRANKENSTEIN
WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND
and...
and...
omigawd...
My six most favorite black&white movies are:
THE TRAIN
LOST HORIZON
BRUTE FORCE
THE THIRD MAN
SECONDS
TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE
SUNSET BOULEVARD
YOJIMBO
THRONE OF BLOOD
HIGH NOON
MODERN TIMES
THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE
THE HAUNTING
LONELY ARE THE BRAVE
FRANKENSTEIN
WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND
and...
and...
omigawd...
BRIAN:
It feels "alien" to me. I'm a quick study, and like to think I'm infinitely adaptable; but I trust my gut. I could work on a pc, even get co-opted like everyone I know except Loren Estleman, who also works a manual typewriter. But my gut tells me this is a distancing, dehumanizing implement. My gut doesn't lie to me; my instincts--FOR ME--are straight. Yeah, I could work on a pc, but it would be lima beans. My gut tells me that even if I tried them, I'd vomit up lima beans. It tells me that even though I've never actually seen a full feature-film-starring-Adam-Sandler, I know I'd loathe it. It tells me that I have no interest in seeing Israel, but Petra I'd kill to visit.
I taught myself to type. Age four or five, something like that. I enjoy the feel of foot-pounds of energy being expended. I feel a kinship with my reader through the actual physical labor. All the "benefits" of a pc, which mostly boil down to correcting shitty writing, and fancy formatting, are aids to slovenliness and muddy thinking. I have no need of such toots and whistles. Also long-windedness is one of the concomitant "blessings" of computers. It's a fantasy trilogy tool unsuited for a short story writer
I can sit here and write a message of inordinate length to Ms. Gelb, but it ain't real. It ain't writing.
At the Olympia, I sit and sing. I am Capt. Nemo at the keyboard of the great Nautilus pipe organ, sending Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor out into the briney vastness. Using Susan's thingee here, I am frowning and not really enjoying myself. Also, it's addictive, and I think it makes the typist a surly person. Careless in courtesy, a set-apart vessel for pc flaming, maybe something like Keyboard Rage. It feel off-putting to me. Handwriting or typing a letter is real; postings, e-mails, spam . . . all of it . . . it's alien and crapoid to me.
Please, all of you, don't get into a discussion of this. It is MY world-view, and not open to alternative logic. You go to your church, and I'll go to mine (or not at all) . . .
JIM HESS: I know Larry Brody too well to go to his "brodystock."
We have history. No need to raise me in conversation if you go.
Sleeping dogs.
Yr. pal, Harlan the Typist
OH best B&W-- you have to include All About Eve (that bitch!) and The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. Then there is The Grapes Of Wrath with Henry Fonda.
I don't care what anyone says-- I ADORE It's A Wonderful Life.. of course that's probably because it's so similar to my own circumstances.
:)
Cindy
My favorite black and white movie? Just got it on DVD: Carol Reed's _The Third Man_. But I guess we're focusing on black-and-white cinematography, so I'll also toss in Welles' _Citizen Kane_ and Woody Allen's _Shadows and Fog_ as well.
QUESTION FOR HARLAN: I just read through your note to Miss Gelb. You'd mention your intention to keep yourself away from heavy-duty involvement with computers (and I won't call it "illiteracy" for obvious reasons), with the exception of adding notes to Rick's board here. Anyway, here's my question.
How does the use of even this basic computer-writing thing _feel_ to you? I don't mean that in terms of your feelings about computers and writing. I'm asking about your comfort with its use. Do you find anything about it that you like? Especially dislike? Does the computer's capacity for revision feel like something you'd like to have on your typewriter?
I'm not asking this out of ignorance of good ol' manual typewriters. I learned on a fine old Sears that I wish I still owned, and I keep a well-ribboned Royal in my living room. But the use of a word processor is second nature to me now, and that's partly due to the fact that I like using them. You've spoken at length about your dislike for them. And I am _not_ trying to nudge you into some admission over word processors. But now that you've used one, how does it feel?
I really do love all of y'all.
Where else can you get into a tiff with someone who will later send you ( FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTRY NO LESS) the most magnificent roses ever grown on God's green earth? Seriously! You all should SEE these things! Hell, you ought to SMELL these things! Dorman, are you sure you aren't the ghost of David Niven? He's the only soul I can think of that would have such class, such excellent breeding! Mighty good form, Dorman. And they said chivalry was DEAD!
AND JAY,
You DARLIN'! You brilliant, funny, talented, sweet, endearing JAY. Your short was the icing on the cake of my birthday. That you could and WOULD take the time to write it up completely with every nuance and character detail-- what can I say? You're grand-- or as Katherine Hepburn said in MY favorite black and white film ( The Philidelphia Story) You're YAR. DID I get that word wrong? I can't find it in the dictionary but I could SWEAR that that's it and in the proper context.
God love your heart.
And
HEATHER!
Lynn!
Joeseph!
Jesus!
Waitaminute I got a little carried away there.
I just wanted to thank y'all. You're so amazingly thoughtful.
Harlan has a nice kingdom.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
And happy birthday to me-- thanks to y'all.
I'm beholden, MOST beholden,
:)
Cindy
To P.A. Berman, re The Nation. You have been misinformed; _The Nation_ is one of the oldest left-liberal journals around, and it boasts among its regular columnists Alexander Cockburn, Christopher Hitchens, the reliably sane and wise Katha Pollitt, and Eric Alterman. Definitely not a Larouche journal, not by a long shot.
The New Republic isn't dreck-- at least, not entirely. They're usually capable of running a decent article, but they have a few Odd Topics upon which their brain hinges.
Here's a rough map'o journals to help you find your way. Some are widely available at most decent newsstands, others are found in specialty racks. Some are glossy weeklies, others are perfectbound journals published every two months.
Conservative and Right-Wing: National Review, American Spectator, Weekly Standard, The National Interest
Liberal to Neo-Conservative: The New Republic (Prone to wild swings, depending on the topic and the editor.)
Pretty much mainstream Liberal: The Washington Monthly, The American Prospect.
Liberal-left: The Nation
More Left than The Nation: In These Times, The Progressive
Radical/Anarchist Left: _Z_ Magazine
Academic Left: New Politics
Libertarian: Reason, Liberty
Not precisely conservative or liberal, but likely to run interesting and informative articles on a wide range of topics: The Atlantic, Harper's.
Favorite B&W Movie: Hitchcock's NOTORIOUS (with M running a close second). And that's only because I have yet to see LOST HORIZON.
L.
Favorite black & white film? That's a really tough choice, but I'd say it's a tie between "Metropolis" and "The Night of the Hunter".
Debbie
Chuck,
In addition to David Fincher (I hope he does right by the material), Morgan Freeman is producing, and Moebius has done the preliminary design work (it looks pretty fab). Check out:
http://www.rendezvouswithrama.com/
For more on the movie.
-Andrew
Heather,
We've been assimilated into the Saturn-Owners Collective. We have yet to name it (it's too new yet). I'm sure that when the time comes, my wife will insist on naming rights.
-Drewcutous of Saturn
Looking at the Nobel Prize winners. Read a piece on Hemingway. Never heard of "Garden of Eden." Sounds interesting.
Interesting piece at:
http://www.nobel.se/literature/articles/hallengren/#5
The Heather Network
I'm gonna get my butt kicked outta here--this is a quiet study computer area--for laughin' too loud, Washu. Knock it off, willya?
One of those weird ideas I was having this afternoon.. okay..
First one: The writers we get for this chapbook..or whatever..could we somehow get them all (this has been asked before) on this forum and have a conversation?
We could say, "Let's all go to Harlan's" and he comes out on his virtual backyard lawn, safely distanced from our guests, his friends, by his virtual chain (very pretty, solid gold) and they all talk it up? Whatever they wanna talk about. Could boost KICK and the chapbooks, is my thought.
Second one: I noticed in the archived posts some people talked of reading entire bibliographic listings of an author. How about this..this is just goofy stuff, but I thought it might be cool..one person plays Shakespeare (okay, the ghost of) and we have discussions with him. Someone could do Faulker (you gotta know your stuff, mind you) someone could do Hemingway, someone could do Proust, I dunno..there's lots of the them.
It reminds me of the book people in "Fahrenheit 451."
Any scholars interested? 'UST an idea.
H
HEATHER: You mean...he wasn't carrying a gun?
"Ten Commandments".. oh I can see it now. Charlton Heston comes down from the mountain and instead of a tablet, he's carrying a gun.
Or, we could have "Rickie V" instead of Rocky. Think about it. Just like paperdolls with interchangeable faces and clothes. Oooh.. I can see a DVD game of this.
H
I can't find your email address--yes, I'm being lazy--and I have an Ellison question for you. Tanks.
Heather
Scratch the 'saw' in "I recently SAW the new music soundtrack for Todd Browning's DRACULA" and replace it with 'heard'. Rick, the preview button is the greatest invention since lemonade...I've got to get around to using it far more often...
HEATHER: As much as BLAIR WITCH 2 was just plain WRONG, I personally would prefer sequels as opposed to 'enhanced updates' of already existing movies EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY OF EVERY WEEK OF EVERY MONTH OF EVERY YEAR. At least we get to see old characters in new situations (never mind HOME ALONE 2 for a moment) rather than old characters in...old situations, except this time we get to see Klaatu nuke the Earth in a spectacular brand-new epilogue brought to YOU by the wonders of digital advancement and technology.
I just know they're going to spice up the sundering of the sea scene from THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. They're gonna do it. It's inevitable.
Nevertheless, I try not to be completely down on 'revisions'. I recently saw the new music soundtrack for Todd Browning's DRACULA performed by the Kronos Qaurtet. It's a great piece and boosts the film's drama instead of detracting from it.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Favorite B&W movie? That changes regularly, but right now, it's THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL. What a cast. What a script. (Charles Schnee wrote it) What dialogue. A great story which, today, contrasts the bastards who ran Hollywood then, who at least knew someting about the movie business, and the bastards running Hollywood now, who have NO IDEA how to make a movie.
Speaking of Kane, (Kane? Where?) Channel Two in Denver was a station that made no bones about how much they cared about the "product" the broadcasted, hacking huge chunks out of films and tv series to cram in more commercials, with all the care and skill of a chimpanzee with a meat cleaver. About twenty years ago, they ran CITIZEN KANE. They cut off the ending. You know, the part with the CLOSEUP OF THE SLED? The ANSWER to the ROSEBUD MYSTERY? Yep. Took them the good part of a decade to live that one down.
CINDYANA JONES: Happy birthday, girl. Make sure you have a designated driver. Or, at least a horse.
One more bit of news. I read David Fincher is slated to direct a film version of RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA. Because so many films have borrowed parts of the book, Finches says he will "reinvent" RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA. I hope that's not as ominous as it sounds.
Chuck
"The Ramans do everything in threes!"
Low, rhythmic clapping, distant at first... but it grows louder. More join the clapping as they draw nearer and nearer, overpowering the voices of nearby conversations, interrupting you in the middle of a critique on local law enforcement.
It surrounds you. It overpowers you with its jaw-clenching volume and its almost bowel-rupturing irritation.
Just before your eyes bleed, the sound abruptly stops.
And just before the ringing stops, a man in suspenders, a loud shirt and enough buttons to provide him with stopping power against a close-range .44, shouts: "I DON'T KNOW BUT I BEEN TOLD!!!!!"
Around you, members of his clan rise up from their hiding spots in the same shirts and suspenders, raising their hands and voices to repeat, "I DUNNO B'AHVE BEEN TOHHHHLD!!!"
The pasty faced leader, awash in the stink of chimi chongas and Budweiser, bellows, "CINDY HERE IS GETTIN' OOOOOOOLD!!!"
The chorus rings out, "CIN'NY 'ERE EES GEDDEN OOHHHHHLLD!!!"
He waves his fist in the air, "SOUND OFF!"
"HA - PEE"
"SOUND OFF!"
"BIRT'-DAY!"
"HA-PEE BIR'T DAY CIN-DEEE (beat) TO YOU!!!"
Of course, the foot-high chocolate chocolate fudge cookie sundae with hot fudge hits the table just before the bloodletting begins.
Happy You Day
Re: Forrester's comments on digital doings: I just thought of something. It would completely do away with the sequel situation, too--i.e., "Rocky," "Rocky II," "Rocky III," "Rocky IV." Just do ONE movie. And continually come out with digitally updated versions of the original. Like software. Maybe Bill Gates and George Lucas could get together on something.
New subject: A question. It's part mythology-based, partly from re-reading notes from James Baldwin. (Baldwin's cool. Anybody read him?) Do white people associate _death_ with the "darkness" of a black man's skin? (Is that why they are afraid of them as, in many cultures, the white man is often taught to fear death--'darkness'?)
Came across an essay by Toni Morrison in that book "Saga." I've never read her. Beautiful piece. It's online, too. Go here to read the piece though, if you want. (OH, I do like writers!):
http://www.nobel.se/literature/laureates/1993/morrison-lecture.html
P.A. system...Re: Primerica...Billions, and billions of years ago, I remember working at a company where we did business cards for people related to that company. Standard order. We dealt regularly with their independent dealers. There's another company name too, but I've forgotten. I could be WAAY off, but I always seem to recall the people I was dealing with as being rather..uhmm.. cheesy..cheap -- this is insurance or real estate or something? Keep in mind this would be early nineties, and this would be in Canada.. but..well..hope that helps. I know they are huge. They were huge then..
Andrew: Congrats on the new car. What's it's name? (Heather, being politically correct to comment on all NEW additions to the family.)
Jim~ That's the weekend Harlan's getting his CSICOP Skeptics of the Year Award. Something tells me he's absolutely heartbroken about missing Brodystock. (Makes my skin crawl to envision so many teevee writers in one place).
L.
Periwinkle Albatross Berman,
Your friend *may* be getting hosed.
Being that I was recently out of work (a situation that has been corrected), I spent quite a bit of time going to various interviews. One of which was with Primerica. From what I was able to glean from the guys spiel, Primerica is essentially a multi-level marketing scheme (to put into its simplest terms). Apparently, they're quite large (a division of Citicorp).
I sincerely hope your friend isn't getting screwed. I can say that I left my interview feeling like someone had just tried to get me into Amway.
-Andrew
Who just bought a new car (his first *new* car), and is still just a bit croggled about the whole thing.
Porn aside, this turned up in my mail today:
The second annual TV Writer.Com Summer Intensive Seminar, known in the
trade as Brodystock II, will be held June 22 and June 23, 2002 at TV
Writer Central - Larry Brody's Cloud Creek Ranch in Westlake Village,
CA.
--snip--
The list of attendees, both amateur and professional, continues to grow.
Here's where we are now:
D.C. Fontana-Story Editor, STAR TREK. . .WGA Morgan Cox Award
Winner
--snip--
And no Harlan Ellison?
Oh, come on.
Until next time. . .
Happy Birthday, Cindy! Making any dinner plans?
Cool..flowers. Neat, Dorman, neat!
Heather, who really uses that word.
Joseph: Leaving actual non-fiction histories aside, have you read *The Anubis Gates*? Well, it's a treat anyway, but Powers also has the Mamelukes as part of the action. Oh, look -- I'm shouting out for Tim Powers. If you like Neil Gaiman, you should like Powers (theoretically, anyway). He's like a massive turbine of fantastic creation, and also appears to have read and thought over all the myths, legends, histories and strange incidents that Lucas purports to have been influenced by. And way way more. -- Jon
Barney urped:
"Difference between me and that dinosaur is that I can type. Also he has those spindly-ass little arms and by the middle of summer I've got some serious pipes."
Ahh...says Heather, striking a deep Obi-Wan pose, stroking her beard...THAT'S WHY THE DINOSAURS DIED OUT...they couldn't reach the keyboard.
Heather, spice eyes glowing
Well, I know what I'm calling the anthology now:
For The Love Of A Mountebank
L.
"Raging Bull" is an energy drink?
H, (keep in mind, I don't watch t.v. now) (hmm...maybe watching black and white DOES have a deleterious effect)
Reading Finder's comments on B&W and I just flashed on a visual...
Do you know, do you know...I remember distinctly the first time I sat down in my Bramalea, Ontario living room and watched an episode of "Star Trek" and went.. WAYDAMINUTE..was "Star Trek" in color?
I watched "Star Trek" on a black and white television when I was a kid living in Baltimore. We never had a color t.v. when I lived in Towson.
And to sit down, a number of years later (not many; I was in Bramalea in the early to mid seventies) and suddenly realize that my fave t.v. show with Kirk and Spock and ole Bones was actually done in color..AMAZED me.
I never missed it, when I watched it, in Baltimore--it was all I knew--I didn't KNOW color t.v.'s--and it had no harmful effects on my viewing of said show.
Neat, huh?
H
PA~ What you want is "The Week" -- the official Ellison endorsed weekly news mag.
L.
Whoo. God, it's good to have Mr. Ellison back. I love to bask in the glow of his white-hot words (never mind those radiation burns-- it's worth it). I always wanted to be a nubian mameluke goobah.
Anyone have any dealings with Primerica? An often-gullible friend of mine is going to "training sessions" with them to get certified as a debt consolidation expert/ life insurance underwriting or something. He says it's legit and they aren't asking him for any money, and they reimburse him for his state licensing fees, but my spider-sense is tingling. If any of you know anything about Primerica, please let me know. If you're worried about saying it in public or something, e-mail me.
So, the New Republic is dreck? OK, I take you guys' word for it. Someone told me the Nation was a conservative mag (LaRoushite is what he said)-- is that not true? Is it worth a look? I already get Harper's and I find it extremely interesting, literate, and funny. I agree with Frank that it doesn't have a lot of straight news reporting though, so I want to supplement it with a more news-oriented mag. Something really enlightening and educational and not just a purveyor of pureed crap.
Yr. drooling servitor,
Bermanator
Harlan,
Thanks for the new word, "Mameluke." Now I can read about their frankly fascinating history.
Regards,
Joseph
...okay, I know I have the Dictionary around here somewhere. Dammit.
RESPONSE TO JANICE GELB FROM HARLAN ELLISON, AT LENGTH, PERSONALLY,
IF YOU'RE STILL HANGING ABOUT INVISIBLY:
You enjoy ANSIBLE, and you think Dave Langford's manner amusing.
That is your right. The majority of people who frequently post here (not all, but most) enjoy Harlan Ellison and think he is an okay guy who writes well. That is THEIR right. Your allegiance drives you to come here to rail--however politely--at what you INTERPRET as my behavior. And you seem momentarily rocked back on your heels (if we are to take your hyperbole seriously) that you were not received with wide embrace. In other words, you are either serious or mock-serious about a kindergarten-level understanding that others have responded EXACTLY AS YOU HAVE DONE. Not one whit different. You rushed to defend . . . they rushed to defend. And then you feign wide-eyed naivette at the measured responses you got, which even you would have to admit were at PRECISELY the same level of muted passion. The only difference between your posts and those of the Webderlanders is that they eschewed the chicanery of cupidity. (You see how going after someone's "manner" can be a ridiculous side-bar red herring? Ah. Good. We're making progress.)
You were not impelled by any Zorrolike need to get at truth, or to discover what it was all about on a personal level, Ms. Gelb. You came here to object to ME, and since you had no forensic debating logic or new data to bring to the discussion, you cobbled up a discursive litany of "offenses" in my reaching out to correct Langford's incorrect posting about my lawsuit.
You didn't want to better the situation, ma'am. You wanted to slap my face.
However gently; however politely.
You apparently have no background knowledge of any of the troubling history that preceded Mr. Langford's comments on my lawsuit. Nothing to inform your umbrage. Just . . . "how DARE you?!?" Very Margaret Dumont. And so, like someone coming to the Town Meeting at which several hundred people have been discussing the garbage disposal problem for three hours, you arrive late, empty of information, and you begin demanding that "the terrible garbage disposal situation" be dealt with. And you are affronted when several hundred exasperated and weary people turn on you and bare their fangs. YOU are the arriviste. The Janice-Come-Lately. And without dealing with what ANSIBLE actually SAID, without acknowledging the trouble it might have caused me, you rail at me for trying to set the matter straight, to get the actual information disseminated IN PRECISELY THE SAME MANNER LANGFORD EMPLOYED, and you have the audacity not to deal with what was said, but distract the discussion by badrapping the m.o. I employed to do the job. I am, once again, scolded by the likes of you because I didn't behave in a fashion that SUITS YOU.
You don't actually know what it's all about, you don't actually know what you're talking about, but you know damned well that if I'm at loggerheads with someone you DO like, that I must be wrong, full of shit, and rude in my manner. Yeah, as Philip Marlowe said, "I get a lotta complaints about that."
Let me be candid, Ms. Gelb. Picking nits at the procedure by which someone registers a complaint is the last bastion of PARALOGIA. There would have been NO WAY of my behaving in calling down Mr. Langford that would have satisfied you. If you had somewhichway become aware of my complaint, and even had I had not gotten to the matter through this board, had I done it some other way . . . well, you'd have found a non sequitur that would have served your need. The need being, of course, to distract utterly from the original complaint and its accuracy, to bend and misdirect the conversation (as you have done) into a cul-de-sac of personality and by stirring the silt suffficiently to rearrange the landscape so the original issue is lost; but all that remains is the general tone and rumor that I am a "bad guy" for deigning to upbraid Mr. Langford for yet ANOTHER (in a long long long long long line of innocent-eyed) tweaking of The Demon Ellison.
Yes, I was polite to Mr. Langford. Not because I truly accept his "reasons" for being on my back--such as posting a quote on my case from January or whenever--but because I have no need or desire to "feud" with him. I've never received a copy of Ansible. I only get faxes or tearsheets or phone calls when he's jumped me. People enjoy stirring others up. Apart from that nebulous contact, I have no liaison with the man. I would be pleased if I had no reason to deal with Mr. Langford at all. I do not dislike him, I simply perceive an animus there, and I choose not to feed it. So I was a gentleman and euphemistically granted that I "accepted his clarifications." That's called being politic. Diplomatic. Conciliatory.
I have spoken to Mr. Langford only once (possibly twice). The last time I spoke to him, I called him by international long distance, on the occasion of yet another negative (you would, I'm sure, call it a "wry") wallop at me. The most recent, at that time, of considerable, and I asked him point-blank, "Have I ever done you a disservice that you can recall?" He said no. I asked him if I had ever screwed him in a business matter, or somehow, knowingly or otherwise, cost him a writing assignment? He said no. I asked him if I'd personally offended him? He said no. So I asked him, in these words, "Then why do you have a bug up your ass about me?"
And Mr. Langford assured me such was not the case
He denied any such feeling toward me.
In direct contradiction to EVERY notice about me he had ever run.
Paranoia aside, I wanted to find out if I had, unknowingly, indeed offended the man, if I owed him an apology, if we had an ongoing reason for disrespect and disinformation.
He assured me it was all in my mind.
I asked him if it was because he was a close friend of the U.K. novelist Christopher Priest, for whom I DO have actual and genuine reason for ongoing dislike. (To be candid about it, one night at the pub in London where the brit sf crowd regularly met, many years ago, when Mike Moorcock and I happened to be there, I called Priest out. I suggested in extremely loud voice, that the yellow sonofabitch should stop hiding behind the fans at the back of the bar, and drag his lying ass out onto the cobbles where I would endeavor--though he is considerably larger than I--to rip off his great melon head, and shove it up his puckered sphincter. Like the darting priest that he is, like the feral coward that he is, he continued to cringe far back there in the shadows, surrounded by a coterie of young wannabe writer acolytes who felt that if they played "homie" to this envious scumbag he would help embellish their burgeoning careers . . . until the stately, precious, mannered fans pointed out pointedly to the Ruffian Yankee Colonial Mountebank that I was acting in a "crude" and "offensive" manner.)
So I left the pub.
But Priest has never stopped his adolescent chivvying, and one day, before it all ends, we shall be in the same airspace; and no amount of tsk-tsking by bystanders will prevent a VERY close presentation of our respective positions on life and honor.
But...back to you, Ms. Gelb.
You continue to blather on about how many alternate ways I could have done this. You say why didn't I do this, or why didn't I do that, or how confused you are that I did the other. Well, geee, kiddo, I didn't realize I was under direct orders to placate your every concern. You say I could have contacted Langford personally. Why? Why should I have done that? To satisfy YOUR weird logic that if I'd done it on the q.t., secretly, using the underground or the French maqui, or diplomatic pouch, the world would not know Langford had whacked me again with another "item" that is just wrong enough so once more via his gentle, yet wry, ministrations I look like a fool? Why should I want to protect Dave Langford's reputation? He obviously doesn't give a hoot about mine! And does he truly need to have his golden enshrined rep protected by my keeping any complaint under wraps? Little pisher foolish mountebank me? Obviously not, if we are to judge by the alacrity and polite persistence of your cavalry charge. Looks to me as if Dave already has a faithful phalanx ready to rush out to bitch-slap anyone who clears his throat wrong, ready to do verbal battle on the web at the drop of an adjective. So, truly, let's be honest here, how can my miserable whining redound to the detriment of a guy who is already beloved for being "a wry, funny misanthrope"? I'm told by everyone, including one of my own attorneys, that "Dave treats everybody this way." Well, hell, that sorta shuts MY mouth. ("How dare you object to Hitler wanting to throw you in an oven, he treats ALL the kikes that way, what makes YOU so special?")
Geezus, Ms. Gelb, what a fuckin' epiphany! You've turned ME around. I'm now quietly humble and proud to have been cast in the role of Moron Eemeritus by the wry misanthropic jackanapery of the Teflon Talent of Dave Langford, the U.K.'s answer to George Carlin.
Well, let me address your points, since you seem determined not to let the common sense of the Webderlander's responses pierce the veil of your paralogia. Here's the way it goes, kiddo:
1. I am, with the exception of a rare appearance in this exact chat room, computer illiterate. By choice. If you knew even a soupcon about me, you'd know that was the case. That you DON'T know it, indicates that insofar as any Ellison-associated Real Data is concerned, you are tabula rasa.
2. This lack of knowledge on your part extends, it would seem, to any background on Enemies of Ellison, Christopher Priest and his scurrilous chapbook about me, Dave Langford and his long liaison with Priest and Charles Platt, the man who founded the Enemies of Ellison, the attempts I've made to get Langford to stop using me as a punching bag, his assurances that I'm just a paranoid, etc. etc. etc. (See how wearyingly convoluted this all was, to start with, not clarified in any degree by your riding into the breach?)
3. So I cannot, and do not, correspond with such people as Langford by e-mail. I don't have e-mail. I don't even have a computer. Susan (my wife, if you want another piece of basic data) has one, and it is on same that I'm writing this very cathartic response to your polite chiding.
4. I send no e-mail. I use the phone or the regular mails.
5. With the arrogance of the gadget-besotted, you ASSUME that because you waste endless hours of YOUR time sending e-mail, that everyone works the same way. Well, I don't. I use a typewriter to write my stories. Also letters.
6. I wouldn't even know HOW to send Langford an e.mail, or how to find ANSIBLE's website. I don't WANT to know. That is my right, not to buy into YOUR state-of-the-idiocy technology. The U.S. Mail or a phone call are more than fast enough, more than personal enough for me.
7. But. To get the disinformation Langford was spreading excised quickly, neither phone call nor international mail would serve.
8. Why? Because Dave Langford is hard of hearing. (I've even been told he is legally deaf.) And calling him (with an 8 hour time difference so I'd have to make the call in the wee hours or when otherwise inconvenient and intrusive for one or both of us) (did you ever stop to think about ANY of this, or does your mouth charge on ahead of your brain in this manner as a matter of rote?) would be difficult, not to mention inexcusably rude and intrusive, for him, with me screaming at the top of my lungs at three or four in the morning, so that I waken my sleeping wife--just to mollify you--and him needing me to repeat my complaint over and over. And then he would feed me that, "Well, I picked it up from..." blahblah, or "I read it in..." blahblah, or "I was told by..." blahblah, all of which is the I-Ain't-To-Blame-For-Publishing-Gossip crap that fans (who are incapable of ever thinking they've done anything unacceptable, because whatever they do online or in fanzines is O.K.A.Y.) have been using as plea-bargain for fifty years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that bullshit, Dave: f'rinstance, uh, er, you got it from maybe Locus, who got it from some online yahoo, who got it from AOL, who prepared the press release so they'd look good, and you didn't do anything even REMOTELY like vetting it, you just fuckin' RAN IT because it felt good to ram another one up my ass.
Where was I...?
Oh, yeah. My alibi for not sateing YOUR unknown need to have me behave as YOU think I should, thereby satisfying--presumably by some sort of precognitive telepathy--the umbrage of a total stranger. I was saying . . . So I didn't call a guy I've purposely tried NOT to have contact with (just to satisfy your moron theory about how YOU'D have liked to see me do it), and didn't do a mealy-mouth conversation at some impossiblke hour, at considerable long-distance-rate cost just to quash a bit of gossip information gone wrong. I didn't . . .
BRINGGGGGGG BRINGGGGGG BRINGGGGGGG
"Hullo."
"Uh, Dave Langford?"
"What?"
"Is this David Langford?"
"Who is it at this hour?"
SCREAMING NOW, TO BE HEARD: "Uh, sorry to disturb you, Dave, it's Harlan Ellison, from Los Angeles."
"Who?"
"HARLAN!! ELLISON!! Can you hear me?"
"Yes. Why are you calling at this hour?"
"Well, I don't go on the internet, but somebody who saw your Ansible site faxed me the comments you made about the recent finding in my AOL suit and..."
"What?"
"AOL. Piracy"
"What?"
"Well, you interpreted it all wrong, Dave; and it's just adding to the mean crowing that all those 'internet must be free' freaks are always spouting, and I'd like you to correct it on your..."
"And that's why you woke me and my family up...to complain about that?"
"Uh...yeah...'cause, you see, it's causing me grief and..."
LANGFORD HANGS UP.
And THAT, Ms. Gelb, in the Real World, not the fantasy landscape of your tunnel-visioned Opinion World, where Janice Gelb don't know squat, but has this lynch rope ready, and she's gonna have her Ox-Bow Incident moment because SHE'S A PATRIOT! And she ain't gonna let that Demon Ellison diss Dave Langford and his wry, misanthropic journal/website.
And I didn't send a letter or a telegram because I had at my disposal--as Dave Langford had at his--the vast power of the internet. So I asked my slave minions, my drooling nubian mameluke goombahs, my shambling drooling zombie servitors, my evil flying monkeys, to fly, fly, fly! I asked them to do what they do--run riot on the internet chattersites where the Janice Gelbs roam free--and to try and put a Band-Aid chokehold on the misinformed and troubling crowing. Not on the website, not to stop anyone from saying anything they chose to say, right or wrong, but to put the word out that Dave Langford had, again, intentionally or otherwise used me to vent a little wry, amusing, misanthropic error of fact. Chuckle. Chuckle.
And you come bounding in here, lynch rope on high, and chastise me for complaining that I've been buttfucked, and asking those who know how to do what I cannot do, as a "small favor" (if you go back and read the heading, Ms. Arguing-from-Illogic), to go out and find the Ansible site, and suggest Langford do his homework. And post a correction. Instead of doing AOL's pr dirtywork for them.
And when the Webderlanders try to straighten you out . . . politely . . . you pout and say you're going away. Well, it is, as you point out, a wonderful venue here, filled with smart and fair people, who have a pretty low bullshit tolerance but also have kind hearts and a forgiving nature. And THEY understand that the method I used to get to Ansible was the way I chose, and though it doesn't sit comfortably with what YOU'd like me to have done, well, you weren't the one being bothered, toots. And as Tony Isabella said, "Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved."
So if you make a moue and depart, that's your loss.
As for me, I believe I've said as much about this bullshit as is necessary. Yes, I accepted Langford's "clarifications" with grace, because I am tired of dealing with him, I need and want no feud, and if he chooses to say it was just a muck-up and Priest's friendship cast no shine on the posting . . . so be it.
I've got an 800-lb. gorilla to kill, and stories to write; and this kind of internet crap is stultifying.
Thank you for your attention, Ms. Gelb.
Respectfully, Harlan Ellison
Forrester~ Hey, I found those birds good homes. Don't believe all the rumors you hear. Those are canary feathers between my teeth, not parrot.
L.
Lynn –
re: "drunk and wearing flip-flops"
- For a moment there, thought you were goin' "Margaritaville" on us. You little parrothead.
LW -
re: "AFCW" vs. "MTP"
- Glad you liked the comments; thanks.
Jay –
re: "Star Wars-The Next Generation"
Well done; howzabout "Star Wars-Final Conflict," with an Armaggedon-Outta-Here battle looming between the Church of Obi-Wan and the Church of the Companions over the Middle East, said battle bringing about an end of aggression between Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc (We wish.)
Joseph –
re: "His Girl Friday"
- Great choice. BTW – seen Bob Green’s recent columns on "If you were on a desert island and could only take five movies with you, which ones would you take?"
Xan -
re: "..…were having a feud.."
- If we each had a dollar (US, Canadian or otherwise) for every time we heard / read "…so-'n-so and Ellison were having a feud…"
(To HimsElf: Yes, saw your disclaimer of that earlier posting. Those myths 'n fables, they take on a life of their own, don’t they, like the elevator story you recounted in "You Don’t Know Me, I Don’t Know You.")
On a tangent of the discussion on modified re-releases of various films: sometimes, movies are presented with additional/lost footage that the collaborative effort of cast&crew&writer&director&cinematographer&wardrobe etc (in no particular order) wanted us to see. The parts that were excised to meet someone's arbitrary timeline or understanding of what’s important to the story (which can leave the audience wondering, "Wait a minute, when did THAT happen?". And some are modified just for the sake being able to change them. The excuse of, "Well, this is what I wanted to do, but couldn't at the time, but because of advances in film-making (read: CGI)…" which really means, "How can we market this to more suckers?"
In the former instance, is that comparable to the writer releasing a collection of stories in the "preferred text" (the original story before some editor got to it) versus the latter example, which would be stories that have been significantly rewritten since first publication ? What do you think?
Cindy: Happy B-day! Enjoy.
Happy Birthday Cindy! May you have many, many more!
L.
Thank you Joseph,
:)
Cindy
CIndy,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Regards,
Joseph
DORMAN!
The roses just came-- they are exquisite in the extreme. Enormous pink blooms in a beautiful crystal vase.
Such lovely timing! Today is my birthday!
:)
You are a peach!
yer pal,
Cindy
Actually I hold Bigfoot responsible for plate techtonics.
If I had it in my power, most movies would be in black and white by cultural law. There are exceptions to this rule; like some dumb Adam Sandler crap or what not. Or something like, Dawn Of The Dead, where the blood red color makes artistic sense. That silvery sheen of twilight that give black and white films their ummph is what makes some films as interesting as they are.
I mean, Imagine the horror of Casablanca colorized?? Ingred Bergmans silvery twinkle in her eye at the airport cannot be bought at any price. Or Rick's foggy presense walking off into the mist of Hollywood history.
Something like, the Exorcist in black and white would have made the movie more scary. Or imagine Blood Simple in the same silver patina that graced, the Man Who Wasn't There.
------------------------------
The New Republic is basically Neo-liberal crap for the most part. Neo-liberal meaning a pro buisiness, trickle down, managed trade view of the world, that brought out the knives in Seattle.
Brian, actually the Nation is a bit better then Harpers, because it has more real news, but of coarse it avoids a certain cultural critique that Harpers does a good job on. Also, Louis Lapham is one of the best essayist's in America today. I do think John Leonard is a better writer, but he is only in the Nation sporatically.
I remember someone sayin' something about an Ellison/Hamill feud... oh, yeah, it was when we were passin' the pipe, and talking about those glaciers they towed to the Sahara...
(cough)Al
Harlan: Good, God. I'm sorry. That was some stupid news item in the one of the old Starlogs I was going through. Some bit in which Mark Hamill expressed surprise that you had just called him to tell him that Empire was a much better film than Star Wars. The magazine spun it as some kind of tension or "feud" - and that was it. I thought it would be cute to mention it in a P.S., proclaiming it a joke by a failure to recognize YOU. It did not come off, and I'm sorry I wasted your time to correct what was supposed to be a flippant comment.
Actually, I'm sorrier that I may have contributed to the bilge of the internet regarding you.
Again, my apologies. (And I know you're not mad at me...)
XANADU:
You posted that Mark Hamill and I were "having a feud" in the late '70s/early '80s.
I have no idea where this comes from.
I have never--to the best of my recollection--"feuded" with Mark. Nor he with me.
I have nothing but respect and friendship for Mark. We've met on a few occasions, and unless I'm losing it at impending-age-68, we're never exchanged anything but pleasantries.
I cannot think of ANY reason I might have animus or discontent with Mark Hamill, nor he with me. This strikes me as yet another odious example of internet yenta-ism. Why do you folks believe ANY WEIRD CRAP that comes your way, when it's electronically backfenced, but seem to know a lot less about the phyical universe. Do you accept the existence of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster before you understand the theories of descent of species or plate tectonics?
I can't remember every little thing with which I may have agreed or disagreed in my life; and it's possible that someone has blown up a difference of opinion expressed by Mark and/or myself somewhere, thirty-plus years ago; but for my part, you may believe me when I tell you that I think Mark Hamill is a good guy, has been a good actor, has always seemed worthy to me, and has never said or done anything to rouse my ire. As best I can recall. And IF--this is stretching for the MOST improbable--such an exchange exists, it must have been so paltry, so picayune, so minuscule, that I cannot even perceive a scintilla of resonance or shadow in my otherwise capacious memory for that improbable speck of twaddle.
Is that explicit enough for you, Xanadu?
And is there, at last, gawd almighty at last, is there a lesson to be learned from this interchange between us? Which is to say, does this finally convince you of how outdated, unreliable, and dangerous is the idle chatter scattershot across this skein?
I am not angry, or feuding, with YOU, either. I am exasperated, but not pissed off. Big difference. BIG.
Respectfully, Harlan Ellison
>and he IS - ILM was, as of last year, still working on enhancing Kenobi's light sabre duel with Vader for eventual DVD release<
What, you mean Kenobi's saber won't fizzle out in that one angle? I always thought that was nicely realistic...damn sabers, just when you need them, they start fritzing...
Jay...VERY funny! And sadly close to the truth...
>Star Wars was originally to have been titled Star Wars, Episode
4—The New Hope. The episode title was dropped because it was
felt it would be too confusing. "It was to have been our tribute
to the old movie serials. Now we're going back to the episode titles."<
No way. This is revisionism, pure and simple, using the Part 5 release of Empire as a lead-in. No freaking way.
Of course you KNOW somewhere down the line, the door is open for some heir to the Lucasfilm francise to say, "It is TIME TO COMPLETE George's vision with three more films... A STAR WARS: THE NEXT GENERATION triology of films." Never mind those books.
Wait, didn't Lucas say the books were canon?
No...he said he was satisfied if they served to round out the trilogy, BUT we learned on his deathbed his assistant transcribed a memo to McCallum and the new head of Lucasfilm (the first CGI/cybertronic CEO) that "If ever there was a time to finish the dream, it is now...may the Force be with you!"
So with Lucastron- v.1138 we now offer you an entirely CGI trilogy of films detailed enough to make Final Fantasy look like Steamboat Willie!
Han and Luke Brothers? It's true from a certain point of view! We've digitally replaced the chasm kiss in SW:ANH with a peck on the cheek and the longer kiss on Hoth in SW:ESB with a playful nose rub. The good news is that Princess Leia will now be completely naked in Jabba's palace. We consider it a trade off and a peace offering to the purists.
Oh yeah, SPECIAL EDITION REMASTERED will eliminate those clunky model shots and replace them with really cool liquid fire ring explosions, so every time you see a TIE fighter explode, you see the pilot get sucked into space as the ship vaporizes!
We've also made the explosion sounds more authentic and resonant.
Of course, the Force message of spirituality will also be reworked to introduce the new Church of Obiwan founded this year to honor the martyr who sacrificed his life for the lives of the Rebellion. Kenner will handle the merchandising of all church instruments and sacraments, while robes and clerical wear will be handled by The Gap.
God Bless ObiWan
Tom: Thank You. This makes it much clearer - the "A New Hope" title existed at least as far back as March, 1980 - but it appears not to have made a cinematic appearance until April 1981.
Based on his comments it seems clear the Empire was always labeled "Episode 5". But I have to laugh at the idea that Star Wars was originally conceived as part 4 of nine films. While I can't _prove_ what was in Lucas' mind at the time of writing Star Wars - the episode idea doesn't make it to the page in ANY of the drafts.
Xanadu,
All of this is from an interview with Gary Kurtz:
The office of Lucasfilm Ltd., Los Angeles, CA, March 20,1980.
The Empire Strikes Back is actually episode five in the Star
Wars saga George Lucas has written. And it says so on the
screen: Star Wars, Episode 5—The Empire Strikes Back," explains
Gary Kurtz.
later..
For instance, he clarified the whole saga situation. "Here's
how it goes. There are nine stories: three trilogies of three
stories each. Star Wars was the first story in the middle
trilogy."
also
Star Wars was originally to have been titled Star Wars, Episode
4—The New Hope. The episode title was dropped because it was
felt it would be too confusing. "It was to have been our tribute
to the old movie serials. Now we're going back to the episode titles."
Finder,
Completely agreed, except that I do really like Tarantino's dialogue on a different plane. Works just as well in a Tarantino movie as the "Front Page" dialogue works in a Howard Hawk-directed movie.
Regards,
Josesph
Jon: THANK YOU! I completely forgot about the pressure on Fox from American Graffiti's success. That was this missing piece.
Just a quick correction, might've already been noted, but didn't see it:
David,
The film you speak of with Ben Stiller is "Flirting with Disaster" and not "Running on Empty" (with River Phoenix; and everytime I see that name, I'm sad that we can't see his work anymore).
And if the correction's already been noted, then just paint me Johnny-come-lately.
Joseph - Amen. When people talk about how jazzy and snappy and hip Quentin Tarantino's dialogue is, I figuratively kneecap them with "His Girl Friday" (I'd do it literally, but do you know how much a can full of feature film weighs?) So great is the on-screen dynamic, the back and forth, give and take of Cary Grant and Rosalind Russell that (as goofy as this will sound) I picture them when I read Harlan's "D'jinn, No Chaser" - as sweet a screwball comedy as one could ask for.
Xanadu: The book I've got spends several pages on the initial SW deal memo and the actual contract which came later. Basically, Lucas retained ownership of the film and got 'garbage rights' in exchange for not taking more money up-front, which everyone expected he'd do after American Graffiti hit big. The garbage rights were for stuff like merchandising, toys, and music...Fox executives were purportedly happy that Lucas didn't ask for $500,000-$1 million more up front in the actual contract and thought they'd taken him for a ride.
Jon
Lurk: Actually, Lucas is in an almost unique position. He OWNS Star Wars and everything associated with it. Somehow, during the original negotiation for the rights, he kept them all - giving Twentieth Century Fox something that they coveted then, but in the larger scheme of things turned out to be relatively meaningless. (I don't remember what it was, so I can't tell you now)
When Star Wars exploded, he controlled the rights to everything - he financed both sequels personally with his newly acquired fortune (another area Fox let him have was merchandising rights), his effects house (ILM) created the visuals and Lucasfilm produced. (although Jedi almost bankrupted the company and nearly killed George - thus the long hiatus until digital filmaking, when he could make Phantom and the other prequels for a reasonable cost)
Everything in the Star Wars Universe belongs to George. Everyone working on anything Star Wars is purely work-for-hire, thus HAS no right to comment on changes.
This is not normal and I doubt anyone getting financing from a major studio will ever be able to do it again. Lucasfilm is the world's most powerful and wildly successful "independant" studio.
Washu:
>As much as I disgree with what these two are up to these days, it's still THEIR CREATIONS
Yes and no. The director is one part of a team. What about the writers, or the actors, or the producers?
Melissa Mathison wrote E.T. Did she approve the change to the script where Spielberg put in radios instead of guns?
A lot of other people helped Lucas financially with Star Wars, and they did so based on the script he submitted them. Do they get a say when he decides to go back and change things?
The director runs the show, but the artistic creation is finally a group one.
Lurk
Finder,
First off, "Muad'Dib-sho-bedo" gave me a good chuckle. Second off, my favorite black & white movie, which I sadly have cpnverted no-one to yet (well, mostly because pretty much everyone I know has already seen it) is "His Girl Friday." Best comedy ever.
Regards,
Joseph
*** Heather ***
In the words of our fearless leader who was quoting somebody else [Bogart?] - "Yeah kid, I get that a lot."
Difference between me and that dinosaur is that I can type. Also he has those spindly-ass little arms and by the middle of summer I've got some serious pipes.
In terms of critical thinking however we're about neck and neck.
Hi ho hi ho...
- Barney [the other purple meat]
Washu - (Max Von Sydow goes to Hell and fights Satan in spectacular kung-fu) made me snort Raspberry White Mocha. Gracias. And you make a valid point about a creator reworking his or her own work. The recutting of "Touch of Evil" to Welles' original notes on the matter cause me no grief. And at least Spielberg has stated he's putting the original "E.T." on the DVD with the reworked one. But Lucas tinkers endlessly and pretends that he's doing everything the way he originally intended to, and then disposes of the original work. Well within his rights as the creator. But in denying the original, he robs his original audience of their experience and their memory - a mistake, if you ask me - the man could create Film School in a Box if he did the Star Wars DVD with all the bells and whistles, from the original workprint right up to whatever he's doing with the film now (and he IS - ILM was, as of last year, still working on enhancing Kenobi's light sabre duel with Vader for eventual DVD release) and showed the evolving nature of his vision, the technology and the film itself. It could be the ultimate realization of all that a DVD could do. But he won't do it, because he's hell-bent to eradicate all trace of past, "imperfect" (in his eyes) versions.
On the plus side, this means we probably won't be seeing "Howard the Duck" again for some time...
On the B&W topic, I've had conversations with people who try to rationalize that if a film is in black and white, it's obviously old and not worth watching... that they would watch it if it were colorized... that b&w is used by "artsy" people, or (and this one slays me) since color was introduced, no one has wanted to make films in dreary black and white... oh, the ignorances pile one atop another.
I think the whole non-color bias is just as bad for film as the revisionist trend. How many directors have chosen black and white in the years since color was first commercially viable? In a way, I feel bad for those who shun B&W on such unimaginative principles. I mean, did the Marx Brothers or Three Stooges ever MAKE a color film? Did Welles not consciously choose B&W a lot of the time? It eliminates so much fantastic material if monochromatic is pushed aside because it "looks old". And before you know it, no one is watching "The Manchurian Candidate" and an entire generation thinks "Raging Bull" is an energy drink...
Who's got an absolute favorite B&W film? And have you introduced anyone to it who might not have otherwise watched it?
And when you add the non-color bias to remakeaphilia (the other makes-me-want-to-puke attitude in film today), you get conversations like this:
Me: "I was up late watching "Psycho""
Enthusiastic co-worker: "Oh yeah - I love that movie. Kept me up when I saw it."
Me: "Really? What part gets to you the most?"
EC: "At the end, when you find out Vince Vaughn is the mother, too."
Me: "Oh... have you seen the original?"
EC: "The old one? Nah."
Me: "Why not? It's fantastic! It's a damn fine movie. Shot on the cheap by Hitchcock - moody, creepy, claustophobic. Anthony Perkins will make your skin crawl."
EC: "Well, wasn't this one an exact remake?"
Me: [blank stare, then] "Not unless Gus Van Sant put on a hundred pounds and developed a Tippi Hedron obsession."
EC: [blank stare, then] "Huh?"
And so it goes. Later, I'm going to put my fake sores back on, then jump into Club Med and scare the normals...
Heather - You want to see a black and white film that looks dumb in color? Try "The Bells of Saint Mary's" if you happen across it - it's the worst computer dye job I've ever seen. If the terrible Victorian pastel flavored dresses don't get you, the electric neon blue eyes sported by Bing Crosby will. He looks likes he's heavy on the spice, or possessed by the demonic disembodied spirit of Frank Sinatra... Muad'Dib-sho-be-do, as it were...
Tom: You WOULD have to have the fill to the one issue hole in my collection of the era, and of course, it WOULD have to be the one that was the exception to the rule. (I don't have #36, thus cannot confirm - but it's damn interesting that nobody mentioned the numbers any other freakin' time.) I would have guessed that #35, being the big _The Empire Strikes Back_ issue would have had the notation, but, reading it now again - even though it has a JUNE cover date, due to lead time - the staff had still not seen the movie yet. They were depending on information supplied by Lucasfilm. Issue #36, having a JULY, 1980 cover date would have been produced after they saw the movie.
If you could, Tom, would you please include a partial quote from page 16, issue #36, in which they mention the episode numbers - just to see if we can confirm if this is the first time the episodes have been numbered, and if Empire premeried them.
Thanks.
(My apologies to all in not mentioning I lacked #36, but jeez, guys - none of the others mention the numbers... I just assumed...)
LYNN: Indeed he is. His regular attendance there is how I was able to score an interview with him when our good buddy Paul T. Riddell was editing SciFiNow.com (Read: "When SciFiNow.com was good.").
(and alive)
I'm sure Harlan could have handled it privately. He chose not to, for reasons that may or may not coincide with what I or others suggested here. I'd also point out that the end result of Harlan coming here instead was not any bombardment or choking of sites but instead a somewhat amicable resolution with Mr. Langford himself.
We have a good group of folks here, and they tend to help make things go that way. Maybe that's why Harlan chose this venue. Anyway, glad to have met you and sorry it couldn't be under more agreeable circumstances.
Xanadu,
Regarding Starlog and Star Wars: Issue #36 page 16 mentions the movies and their episode #'s. This may be the first mention in Starlog but I don't know. I had a subscription to Starlog during the early eighties but I only saved three issues (the others are #35 which makes no mention of episode #s and #100 which came out in 1985)
(I mainly lurk on this BBS and I'm amazed at what comes up here.)
If you surf outside these hallowed walls, please help. Send me your favorite *working* Ellison links.
Much obliged,
L.
Just to let you guys know that I did read your responses, here is my final post on this subject.
>
> Given that Ansible has made no bones about its animosity towards > Harlan (from direct insults to giving his avowed enemies aid in > gathering information to conduct an obvious smear campaign
> against him), he had little reason to put himself out too much
> to try to settle things privately.
>
I find it fascinating that Harlan's own response to Dave's explanation was a gracious thank you as opposed to your response above.
I have not seen in the full message from which I quote above, or in others, an explanation that seems reasonable to me to explain why Harlan couldn't have dealt with this privately. But I'm sure that you guys have not seen reason in my position either so I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.
In closing, this is a very interesting and open forum and I'm sure it takes a lot of work. I admire the overall effort even if I did get involved becuase of a distasteful episode.
-- Janice
Ms.Gelb,
Did you see the film The Patriot? In particular the scene in which Mel Gipson's character goes into a tavern full of American ruffians and says ( LOUDLY) "GOD SAVE THE KING!"
That is sort of like what you've done here.
We are a passionate bunch of souls. If you kick him-- or even just look like you might, we will descend upon you like Africanized honey bees. We will not let up until you have gone from our territory and left our icon in peace.
:)
Nice to meet you,
Cindy
and I came across this really old post of Matthew's:
"Nabokov hated Freud for much the same reason he hated Stalin. Nabokov was about nothing if he wasn’t about the freeplay of the individual and his imagination seeking out their own meanings in the world. What Nabokov saw in Freud was a man who was trying to reduce all men to a single pattern – universal dream symbols, fundamental passages of human development and types of response that Freud claims all men possess. To Nabokov this was no better than the conformism of Stalinism, draining all the colour out of life and crushing the individual’s right to choice and the fullest life possible. Since Nabokov believed that human imagination would inevitably win (if at some cost) this meant that both his opponents were frauds and therefore the only sensible thing to do was to laugh them off the stage."
There's often been something about Freud I found disconcerting. Perhaps it was partly this. I shall read more on him.
I've never read Nabokov. I've read a lot of plays but some authors--part of a cluster, as they were introduced to me--worry me a bit.
Could someone suggest a Nabokov (is that spelling right?) that would personify his comments above about the freeplay of the individual?
Thanks
Last time I ever volunteer for a mindnumbing research project after work...
Ok, here's the scoop - the only time Star Wars or Empire are referred to with episode numbers was in Starlog #46, May 1981. That's it, only time before or after. In fact, Starlog never mentions episode numbers even with Jedi, two years later... No one gets a letter published complaining about the name change through issue 52, where I gave up.
Thus, the April 1981 re-release gets the nod as the first appearance of "Episode IV: A New Hope".
Further info uncovered - none of the various books I own (various Art of..., Notebooks..., Illustrated editions, novelizations or gaming references) list episode numbers until the Star Wars revival of the mid 90's.
My copy of the Empire fourth draft script, dated October 1978, includes on the title page, and within the script above the crawl, the designation Episode V. But, since I would not have purchased this until college - it was at least 1984 before I got it, probably later - it could have been added afterward.
However, while examining the Art of The Empire Strikes Back, I find that all drawings and sketches through August, 1978 refer to the project as Star Wars: "Episode II" The Empire Strikes Back. By 1979, the artwork has no episode numbering information - it's now just Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back.
The graphic logos all feature the "Star Wars" box, with the title within - no episode number present.
Whew.
P.S. Did you know Mark Hamill and some guy named Harlan Ellison (whoever the heck, HE is!!) were having a feud in the late 70's/early eighties?
Lotsa stuff. I just watched _The Insider_, and my God, what an amazingly scary movie.
To P.A. Berman, re New Republic. It has some decent articles, but I'm not fond of it. Historically, TNR was the bastion of mainstream liberalism, but once Marty Peretz bought it, it changed into something very different-- namely, a place where young conservative writers got published a lot, and where even the worst policies of Israel against the Palestinians were defended with gusto. It had a really bad spell with Andrew Sullivan was editor. But, if I were to recommend a magazine to subscribe to, I'd suggest _Harper's_ or _The Nation_ instead. These days, I'd give the edge to _Harper's_.
I'm not being sarcastic here either. I really am terrified.
"Someone once mentioned that some of these colorized works of his were helping to re-introduce them to younger audiences."
HUH?! Have we teenagers become THAT intellectually bankrupt that we can't even process B&W through our video game-fried eyeballs?! Oh my GOD!!!
I just got this offer in the mail to get New Republic. I feel like I should know what this magazine is all about but I don't. Does anyone here read it? Is it worthwhile? What is NR's basic premise as a magazine?
Heather: Yes, people ARE that prejudiced against science fiction and fantasy. Heck, some people will even go so far as to say Star Wars isn't grand cinema. I know, hard to believe, but there it is.
Bermanator
Washu's right. Spielberg, Lucas, et al simply lucked out at being able to make these kinds of changes--they've been lucky enough to hang around long enough, in popularity, too, to be able to re-issue their stuff. And that's what it's about, right?
I'm still wondering when I read an intro by Harlan that says something to the effect that he'd gone over the whole collection with his editing comb that I missed out on some of the raw originals. But damn, it's their playdo (or plato?) boys.
I have to even give Teddie Turner his due. Someone once mentioned that some of these colorized works of his were helping to re-introduce them to younger audiences. (Although, how the hell ANYONE can not like black and white movies, I DON'T know. Black and white photography rocks, in a way that color can't touch. Stark, mysterious. And to me, there are some classic B&W films that would look just plain DUMB in color.)
Jon: And I laughed when I saw your subject title. I realize someone had mentioned (or I'd read) how Joseph Campbell is starting with his own pot and throwing in a lot of different mythological vegetables...Campbell's SOUP, as it were. heh.
I've seen some Jung. I wasn't sure if he was just psychoanalyzing or what. I'll go dig those ones up. Thanks. (And maybe I can find that book you mentioned.)
Little Washu: Now, if you want revision history, check out Wordsworth's *Prelude.* Not that I'm comparing Wordsworth and Lucas as to worth of words, but the different Preludes do at least lead to over a century of academic litspeak about the merits of Wordsworth's different versions that may seem familiar to you. Especially the uproar over Wordsworth digitally adding Jabba the Hutt to the rowboat-and-judgmental-mountains scene in Book One.
Jon
RICK: Thanks for the update. Wow, only 3 billion years? I'm feeling a lot more optimistic now.
LURK: On Spielberg and Lucas and modern-day revisions:
As much as I disgree with what these two are up to these days, it's still THEIR CREATIONS, and as artists they have the right to do whatever they wish to their work, be it for it's gain or it's loss. If Orson Welles was alive and well and decided to 'spruce up' MACBETH and/or TOUCH OF EVIL, he would have that right too. Whether or not it's what a true artist SHOULD do is another matter.
Now, if Sid Sheinberg decided to 'streamline' THE EXORCIST without William Friedkin's knowledge, take out all the naughty bits, put in a few explosions here and there, a happy ending (Max Von Sydow goes to Hell and fights Satan in spectacular kung-fu), the newest hit from Britney Spears, some comic relief from the Wayans Brothers...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Heather:
Campbell's best read with some grounding in the myths he plays around with. Or you might want to go to Jung, who's pretty much the Master to Campbell's apprentice when it comes to universalism, archetypes and psychology. There are also some very good, non-expert-level commentaries on Campbell on the 'net. I can't find the one that critiqued Campbell as providing what was basically a very ornate version of Vonnegut's cheeky 'man falls in hole, man gets out of hole' mythological-literary masterplot. Sigh. Now that was a funny one. A cultural anthropology book Harlan recommended back in the 1980's, William Irwin Thompson's *The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light*, is also very groovy on the topic of myths and stories.
Cheers,
Jon
that's sweet.
Now if we could just do something about me envisioning a large purple dinosaur everytime I see your name, we'd be otay.
Heather
Washu said:
"I'd say that the majority of stars we see are probably 'dead' by now, but it's almost impossible to tell which ones are deceased and which ones are still puttering along."
That made me cry. Thank you, Washu.
Heather. washuing her eyes.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nobody said anything about flaming other people here. Janice has certainly not done so, and doesn't deserve it. Ya don't have to be polite but limit yourself to the argument and the behavior, please.
Washu - there's plenty of ways to tell if a star is dead or not. You can look at a spectrography, for example, of our sun, and see how much hydrogen has been converted to helium - and therefore tell how long it has before it uses up enough to enter the red giant phase. If I remember right it's around 3 billion years from now.
Stars are long-lived (even the most ephemeral ones last a few million years), and light travels fast. I would be surprised if more than a dozen of the couple thousand stars you can see in the sky would have burned out by now.
Barney~ Your sentiments are noble. Flame away.
L.
*** Lynn *** That is sage advice which I am going to continue to ignore. I decided a long time ago that whenever I could see a way to defend Harlan against this sort of crap I would. It's almost never worth my time [or Rick's time or (insert your name here) but it still affords me a small amount of satisfaction.
There is only one person on the net [over on alt.fan.harlan.ellison] that I don't bother to engage over this sort of thing because that particular person thinks "I know you are but what am I" is a debate.
Janice puts herself in our way and expects us to just shine it on or throw our hands in the air. Worse, she affects a sort of naivete about why things play out the way they do in the real world. That sort of blinkered impression of critical thinking is exactly the sort of thing that should be answered every single time. By you or me or Rick or Brian or whoever is up to the task that day. I figure Harlan reads this board faster than he types responses to it so if he can look in and say "well, that's not exactly what I would have said but at least it got covered" then we are all that much closer to Harlan extending the 'E' section of my bookshelf, OR having 1 more hour of relative peace. That's one of the things friends should do. The whole point of posts like we have had these past two days is to wear us down. The response should be to not be worn down. Ever.
By the way, HEATHER:
The problem with stars is that we see their light in the sky all at once in one great big clump, but the fact is that they are all of varying distances from Earth and the solar system. I'd say that the majority of stars we see are probably 'dead' by now, but it's almost impossible to tell which ones are deceased and which ones are still puttering along. (Then again, I'm not an astronomer.) e
There was a 'humiliation' thread a little while ago, and a few mentioned their most hurtful experiences in watching such a thing on-screen. I think my own personal fav (if you to call it that) is THE LOST WEEKEND.
In LOST WEEKEND, Don Birnam (Ray Milland) is suffering badly from alcoholism. He needs a drink...has to have a drink...now! So, he sneaks into a high-calibre restaurant and orders his share of booze, only after which he discovers he doesn't have the dough to pay up. Wait...what's that beside him? It's a purse. He shouldn't take it...but he has to pay. It'll only take a second. Over and done with in a moment. He carefully slips the purse away from it's owner and then sneaks into the restroom, where he removes the neccessary cash he needs. (Yes, I couldn't ignore the 'happy black wash-boy' either, but let's not focus on that right now.) Even as he removes the cash, Don tries to make his own little amends and puts a carnation in his purse to perhaps feel a little better about himself. He returns to his table...and discovers that the woman he took the purse from is gone. He turns around, and is confronted by the purse's owner and her husband. The entire restaurant is witness to Don's exposure and subsequent ousting from the building, with Don crying "I'm not a thief! I'm not a thief!" as the restuarant's guests and staff mockingly sing, "Somebody stole a purse!" I never felt more closely akin to any cinematic character than Don at that precise moment. It's a great scene of shame and misery that few similar films have been able to rival.
FORRESTER: Bravo, man. You hit the nail on the head and buried it in the wood. You managed to put into words all the problems I had with MEET THE PARENTS and yet couldn't adequately describe.
It's curious - I saw a skit on MAD TV (I think I've firmly resolved never to watch that show again) about a man who has a maximum amount of time with his son of exactly three minutes after an agreement in court. The man's wife has his son for the entirety of his childhood. There was a certain point when the laugh track was still going and I was just staring blankly at the screen. I kept asking myself, "Am I supposed to be enjoying this?"
Maybe I just have a stick up my butt, I don't know.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Uhm..I'm somewhat a Harlan newbie here and I had to admit, I wanted no part of the foolery I started to see here at one point. (Though I know most of you guys, and your pokes and prods to others are generally rationally-based--though ya STILL looked like a bunch of 14-year olds crowing names at one another and posturing with big long lists of info and... (put that brick down, Rick. *grin*)
But I have to admit, on a purely semantic basis, I need to comment. Excuse me? "wry, caustic sense of humor" that which is Ansible? Okay, this could be true but this copyright lawsuit ain't about who got laid last night and was she a dog or not kind of stuff. And yeah, Ellison seemed to stick his foot in a few points there in the original convo.. but HELL THAT'S ELLISON. (I like that phrase. Sharp. Rolls off the tongue. Somebody write that down. We could use that as a slogan.)
Ahem. My point is, LADY, this isn't a a small red potato salad scene, this is a copyright lawsuit. I realize it's not like your cat died--which would understandably be more important to you versus Harlan's $260K lawyer's debt.. but..ah..
This isn't a laughing matter, dig?
Thank you.
Heather, equally being a jerk (Well, SHE STARTED IT. *grin*) (Is this what boys do, Cindy? Is this the reason we need equality with the boys? *grin*)
>as long as good quality versions of the original are plentiful<
That's the big assumption. There are no longer "good quality versions" of the original Star Wars available, unless you buy them second-hand. And second-hand implies a slow decrease in quality with time.
Should a company that owns, say, Gone With the Wind decide to spruce up the burning of Atlanta with better special effects, what incentive do they have to continue manufacturing copies of the original? The second-hand market becomes the only source.
But more importantly, new viewers never know what the original was, and they assume that what they see now is better anyway. So after we old collectors and curmudgeons finally die off, and the second-hand market dries up, no-one remembers or cares that the big collapsing fire scene in Atlanta in GWTW was the burning down of the old King Kong set. It's now been replaced with some digital improvement. And hey, maybe Ashley's accent has been improved as well with the magic of dubbing.
I say it's a small problem now, but could easily slip out of control. Spielberg and Lucas getting no heat about this really bugs me.
Lurk
Alex Jay Berman~ Is PADGUY really who I think he is?
L.
(Not wanting to ask the question I need to ask him on a.f.p-d, due to the presence of one Od*us, vile little -- ::grumble bitch moan::)
Nail on the head. It's not the feminism, it's the exTREMism. I agree. Good word. Good word. Special interest groups--SIG's--who figure only THEIR interests are special.
I encountered--and I can't believe this--music majors at Brandon University who did this sort of "we are too cool to live" thing, in terms of their music; in terms of their little clique group. (I was dealing with some musicians for that music web site and the Twoonies music nite we had at the local club.)
I mean, I'm talking a cello player or a..trombone player ..or a piano player..doing this "we are superior" shit. I couldn't believe it.
So, to me, when I encounter this women shit, on a similar level; oh, I dunno, someone might say, "Well, I'm a *WOMAN* and I deserve special consideration." (Okay, bad example.) I wanna go, 'LADY, stand in line, like the rest of us, okay? I'll even give you my seat, now willya shut UP?
*grin*
Heather: Rick's answer was dead on. In addition to stars, a surprisingly large number of points of light in the night sky are entire GALAXIES - many millions, even billions of light years away - and even those, as a unit, are also still going strong (as older stars "die", new ones are being "born").
Barney~ My suggestion, should you care to heed it, is to ignore the line noise. I am at a loss to explain why Ms. Gelb is here in the first place, but she seems intelligent enough to recognize a certain lack of sympathy to her point of view. Also, I don't foresee a grand revelation and retraction on her side of the fence anytime soon. Status: Combustion imminent. Anything more is just smoking while pumping gas.
Forrester~ Currently the almighty playlist has nailed my status: drunk and wearing flip-flops on Fifth Avenue. (Rufus Wainwright/Poses)
L.
HEATHER-
Bear in mind I'm working off a layman's astronomy here. All conventional stars visible to the naked eye are in our galaxy. No star in the galaxy is more than a hundred thousand light years away. Therefore the light from just about any star you can see is at the most 100,000 years old. Since most stars have a lifespan measured in the billions of years, only a very very small percentage of them would have run their course and died out in the interim.
JANICE-
I went to Ansible, clicked the search link, put "Harlan Ellison" in and went to a few of the results. I've had things in the microwave for less time. It was hardly a surprise, as you point out, that the magazine does often wear wry, caustic, jackboots - ones that in the results I saw skipped lightly over subjects like Christopher Priest and Charles Platt before going Riverdance on the spine of one Harlan Ellison. I'm sorry that my failure to be properly educated on the 'tudes of various fanzines made this ten-minute step necessary, but I felt it was relevant to my point.
As to what my point was, and to answer your question - Harlan doesn't use e-mail. Ansible is an international phone call for him. At best, Harlan would probably have called me to get in touch with them. Given that Ansible has made no bones about its animosity towards Harlan (from direct insults to giving his avowed enemies aid in gathering information to conduct an obvious smear campaign against him), he had little reason to put himself out too much to try to settle things privately.
This is not to say Dave Langford has done anything wrong in consistently treating Harlan like dried dogshit in the pages of his magazine. He has every right to hold, express, and publish his negative opinion of Harlan. But no one should be surprised when this results in Harlan failing to be friendly or obliging towards him.
Janice seems to be functioning under the perception that it's okay for David Langford to use the soapbox of Ansible to spread misinformation about Harlan's case but that it is somehow unfair for Harlan to use the soapbox of Webderland to call for a correction to or cessation of this type of misinformation.
David Langford could have fact checked the story by contacting the lawyers involved in the case, reading the judgement as I have, or simply calling Harlan and asking him if there was anything he would care to add. If David Langford can't be troubled to contact Harlan before writing about him why on earth should Harlan be expected to extend a like courtesy?
And as far as your choice of these two as "combatants", well, are you serious? If I find a mouse in my pantry I don't think of it as a combatant. I don't think of the people who send me junk mail as foes and the folks who keep sending me spam in Korean and Esperanto are not my nemesis either. Maybe if George Orwell or Anthony Burgess were still alive we could get some Vegas action on this but otherwise the handicapping gets pretty surreal.
yours until you either combust or go away - Barney
Lynn
- Wednesday, April 10 2002 14:46:11
9
999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
It's not WORKING.
L.
"Relax," said the night man / "we are programmed to receive."
"You can check out any time you like / but you can never leave."
"Hotel California," the national anthem of hotel night auditors everywhere. One night, at the Chateau Louise, the maintenance supervisor said they were going to redo one of the walls behind the front desk, and invited the clerks to have a little fun and leave some messages, drawings & such on the wall to be torn out. I scrawled those lyrics on the only blank space left at around 2am; it did sober up one guy very quickly when he stopped by for his roomkey.
Joseph, there are peer reviewed anti-nuke materials also.
Website, but I think my spelling makes more sense. Wink.
ALEX KRISLOV: Regarding my "paranoia" in assuming that the call for putting "a chokehold on the crowing" was not a call for them to bring down the web site but to send messages that Mr. Ellison's cause is not dead yet, your interpretation would work if he had provided Mr. Langford's email address. There was no reason to mention Ansible's web site if sending email messages was meant.
RICK WYATT: Not sure why you spent what must have been a considerable amount of time researching wry, caustic quotes from Ansible, a zine known for its wry, caustic sense of humor.
GENTLEMEN: Neither of your responses answers my main point, which is that Mr. Ellison asked the readers of this bulletin board, in very strong language, to mobilize on his behalf before he took the very elementary and reasonable step of contacting Mr. Langford himself privately first to ask if there was an explanation behind Ansible's coverage of this story. Mr. Ellison himself wrote a gracious thanks to Mr. Langford for his clarifications posted on this board and seemed to accept them as reasonable and accurate. There is no reason why that whole correspondence could not have been handled privately, which would have obviated the need for Mr. Ellison to notify this whole bulletin board that he wanted them to bombard Ansible.
OOOOOOOOOOOO DAVID!
You wrote:
"Cindy also slammed feminists, which is an easy and stupid thing to do. Also an unfortunate one in these environs. Some of Harlan's best friends are
feminists. Even ones I don't particularly like, such as Gloria Allred."
OUCH! I was sort of joking. I'm not too concerned about these environs. I would wager that Harlan has at least one or two old friends in the non-extremist women camp.
Personally I believe that feminism has been a bridge across the rapids for us all, speaking as a woman. We should not be ignored because of our gender and we should be paid the same amount for the same job. It isn't feminism that I object to, it's extremism. I don't believe it is necessary for women to elevate ourselves on the crushed bodies of men. I don't want to hear how we are better than men. I don't buy it. I think we are all individuals.. each to be assessed on his or her own merits.
Heather, I think you are on the right track. You need to come up with an idea that promotes fairness between the sexes without polarizing . The remark you made about feminism and fist exemplifies your grasp of what's at stake. We should each strive to do our best and help eachother-- men and/or women.
:)
Cindy
This is a question someone wants web site links or something to on this point, if you please. Her mom doesn't believe this. She believes it. Who's right?
The question is:
Is it true that most most stars are long gone ("died") by the time their light reaches our world and is visible to us?
Please let me know. Kat thanks you.
Heather
9
999
999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
It's not WORKING.
L.
"David Loftus
"SUBJ: Sundries, - Tuesday, April 9 2002 20:57:18
"..But the poor protagonist just kept getting thrown into one shameful situation after another, and while I could stand it fine on the screen, I got rather upset about all the raucous laughter around me in the theater. Why does this work in British comedies such as 'A Fish Called Wanda' (where Cleese repeatedly gets embarrassed), yet seem so hamfisted and even meanspirited in American ones?"
Exactly – "hamfisted and meanspirited."
Films, such as "A Fish Called Wanda," have the principle character in a variety of socially awkward situations – which also cause the observer who walks in to be almost equally uncomfortable and ill-at-ease. The principle offers some off-the-wall reason for what was just witnessed and tries to make it all sound perfectly logical (which amuses the audience), and the observer buys it hook-line-&-sinker (which makes it more amusing).
In American films, the principle character (typically male) doesn’t just find himself in embarrassing situations. The situations set up a pattern of ridicule and harassment of the principle character (by other players) which questions his maturity, profession, masculinity, choice of clothing, you name it. The formula is that he is a target of scorn and derision by everyone, building and building until he finally loses it. Only then, when he becomes as arrogant and abusive as they are (while still retaining the scintilla of endearing qualities to remind the audience why they were pulling for him in the first place), do the abusers back off. Some even recognize his talent, show him some respect, and then he gets the girl - the one he's supposed to be with.
Films like "Meet the Parents"...or the soon-to-be released
"Harlan Ellison-Dial 9 to Get Out:
Part IV The Early Elay Years."
So called Indie films have changed since the '70's and early '80's, when directors like John Sayles got their start by producing their own films and then shopping around for distributors, or attempting to distribute the flicks themselves. Miramax is a major studio with blockbusters such as
"Shakespeare in Love" "Bridget Jone's Diary" "Cider House Rules" "SPY Kids" and big-time foreign fare such as "Amelie" and "Chocolat," and yet in my midwestern town, when films such as those (and "American Beauty," Woody Allen films, etc.) appear they're labeled 'Alternative Cinema' or Indie films. Back in the late '70's and early '80s there was a 75 seat theater located in my small city that showed Independent, Classic Hollywood, and Foreign films; I saw "Eraserhead" "Return of the Secaucus Seven" tons of European and Asian flicks by Kurasawa, Herzog, Fellini, Godard, Wenders, and Hitchcock festivals; called The Bijou, it was a weekly sanctuary of cinematic originality. When it closed down in the mid-80's a small gallery, Urban Institute for Contemporary Arts picked up the slack to a degree, but the glory days were no more... maybe there were just as few truly independent films made then, as now, but I recall so many regional, narrative films (most of them dim, title-less memories)that flickered before my adolescent eyes between 1978 into the early '80s in that tiny theater, now a CVS Drugstore.
R.W.
Don't worry too much about _Citizen Kane_, gang. Ted Turner wanted to colorize it-- but when they went back to Orson Welles's original contract, they could clauses that specified that the film could not be altered without his consent.
Anyway, as long as good quality versions of the original are plentiful, I'm not too worried.
I find Frank's version of Websight refreshing.
Takes on a sort of a RELIGIOUS connotation, don't you think?
Must get back to reading. Harlan rules rulz. (or is that rues?)
But I just had to say, oh I KNOW. I've been out of the loop on digital film for a while--a lot of technology, in fact. I sat on the floor, opposite the top of the escalator the other day, and wrote on a lined pad--but it simply floors me, that's all. The big guns even CONSIDERING offering stuff like that. Me 'n' George!
Oh, and don't worry, I don't plan to be visiting any BIG ORGS any time soon. Actually, considering the rate of my tiny involvement in this lawsuit--considering I just started getting serious about all this--I imagine I'll be blacklisted from a few studios by the time I get going. Hi Belinda.
(Hey, wasn't that the name of the good witch of the north? Or was that Melinda and a different compass direction?)
Heather--keep an eye out for heather.com. I'll probably have to have make my own cheese too, if this keeps up.
HEATHER: Thanks for the words of encouragement. Sincerely.
LURK: The minute ANYONE touches CITIZEN KANE, apathy is gonna be tossed right out the window and it's time for WAR, baby.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Frank,
Please, for the love of god and English, start spelling it "website." "Websight" is as jarring to me as a peer-reviewed scientific article is to your nuclear arguments.
Regards,
Joseph
RE: revisionism. For me, the problem is not so much over ET and Start Wars, yes, these are silly little films in the final accounting, but it's the general public acceptance of remaking movies to suit modern tastes. If Spielberg gets a pass now, how much longer is it before whomever owns "Citizen Kane" or "Wizard of Oz" decides to "improve" these as well? Then I think the Sistine Chapel argument takes on more urgency.
We've already seen it start with colorization. I was glad to see the public outcry over that, but hey, it's still going on.
Lurk
I know yer just talking in general about feminism (and you've gotta point) but I simply worry about that small sliver definition of feminism (very small, I think--I hope) with the females who beat their breasts. (Oh, hell. This is a semantic argument. I won't worry about it.) I think any group that promotes credible change should be lauded--feminism included. I just know I've met some females that irk me because I'm not enough of a 'sistah' or something. (Never mind, never mind, never mind. This is like that argument where one says, "You're mad." and you say, "I'M NOT MAD.")
I'm not a joiner. I won't wear pins. I shop for my philosophy where I can find it but I don't plan on feeding the BIG ORG. (I'm sure that doesn't make sense. Never mind, never mind, never mind.)
As for kids, Frank, you reminded me of something (the REAL purpose of this posting)..
I was sitting at the back of the bus last night, coming home, looking out the window. A car went by. Yuppie couple. They had a dog in the narrow back seat. He looked up at me. I waved to him.
I had to laugh; in the doorhandle compartment on the far back door there was box of dog biscuits. Just like you'd do--only, say oreos--for a little kid. Yup. Yuppies.
Heather: You may be missing the point of the current DV "film" revolution. With today's modern editing tools, both audio and visual, on an ordinary home computer - you, personally, have more power to edit/create effects and a film than George and Co. had in 1974/75. You don't NEED someone to hand you "studio" effects - you can go out, gather sounds, edit and CREATE your own effects - just like the pros. You can shoot, digitally modify, edit and put together your own stories.
I still takes money - but the upfront costs are way down. A couple grand for a camera, a grand and a half for the computer, and a couple grand for pro-level software. The DV tape is something like $5/6 for and hour/90 minutes of footage. Sets, talent cost and crew costs can be minimized...
After the initial outlay, you have a working "film" studio, and each film needn't cost very much at all - several hundred dollars can go a very long way.
Sturgeon said 90 percent of EVERYTHING is crap - the coming digital revolution will be no exception - but imagine the 10 percent coming from a passionate, new group of filmmakers who might not have made films under the old way. The internet might be a distribution method - you might order cheap one-off DVDs. Most likely - they will get out there in a fashion not even conceived of, yet.
In any case - don't depend on the "big guys" - you don't need 'em or their rules.
I'm assuming one has to start somewhere, Washu. I imagine it taught you a bit about script structure. I simply wasn't INTO writing at the age I would have found Star Trek or whatever interesting. To be brutally honest, if I had, I'd have been writing doggie stories or something. *laugh* No, I know you're not THAT young. I just read a lot of animal stories as a teen--remember James Herriot? Or hell, I've have done James Bond fanzines or scripts. Now THAT'S scary. *laugh*
I think it's just..to THINK.. that the loop is closing. Gawd, to imagine I could script something now, let's say, with George Lucas' film effects or summat. Good lord.
I was merely glad to be able to buy Reese's pieces when "E.T" came out. Now, someone's handing me studio (albeit minimal) effects? Man.
Hey, did they digi out the Reese's pieces in "E.T" and replace them with a new product? Now THERE'S a marketer's dream. Or digitally enhancing some females breasts. Heh. (Don't tell if if the latter is being done. I DON'T wanna know.)
Brian, remember, Harlan only goes to this websight. I think he still hates the web.
Frankly, I think the Star Wars movies are overrated and very dull. These films are as exciting as a game of pong--if some of you old folks remember pong.
The films are melodramatic, and the dull good guy bad guy plots are right out of revisionist westerns. Nothing in the films seemed realistic to me; nothing of any artistic worth can be found at that end of the galaxy. George Lucas is basically a entertainment is art propagandist.
-----------------------
Feminism can be taken to an extreme, but most woman in America would be still in the kitchen if it wasn't for feminist activists and their struggle against male domination. Nothing in America is free ladies; other woman of courage went through hell to ensure rights to the next generation.
It is funny that a lot of conservative woman rail against feminism even though a lot of those woman seem more agitated and angry then any Liberal feminist. Notice that certain conservative woman rally around the sacred institution of motherhood while they themselves have careers at these insipid think tanks and in doing so are away from their precious little trophy children.
1. I just read an article on Jack Lechner, a previous exec at Miramax. He talked about Channel Four and brit productions, as well. I like this word "niche" filmmaking in his reference to films like "The Crying Game," "Shallow Grave," "Four Weddings and a Funeral," and "Truly, Madly, Deeply." I haven't had a chance to read much on the indie film industry lately. (Reading other stuff. Eyes a little blurry sometimes. Still no need for glasses. I'll get there yet.)
Is Miramax helping 'indie' film? (I only know this studio. Tell me if there are other mid-sized studios doing the same thing.)
2. On a somewhat similar channel, that "Brotherhood of the Wolf" apparently set some trends. They made back all their money on that film, in France alone, I think it was. I found that rather intriguing. I really liked that film.
3. What's interesting is the Garrick Theatre (I mentioned seeing LOTR there) closed recently. We have the Towne multiplex downtown and I think I mentioned the Cinematheque (that one's government funded) in the Exchange District. They definitely do 'arty films.' That's theatre cramped.
What's cool is (well, we'll see) the Portage Place Theatres (downtown is definitely dead compared to other areas--many buildings lie empty) is reopening in May (they closed while I was here) with a Landmark-run arty film theatre I don't know how much renovation they plan to do. The place was pretty new. _That_ wasn't the problem--ticket sales was the problem.
How that will do, I don't know but the more 'indie' films I can get my hands on, the better. What are your respective downtowns like for film?
HEATHER: I'm going to be brutally honest and say that the temptation to write your own script for your favorite show, cartoon or film has corrupted me on more than one occasion. I've started on a DOCTOR WHO script, a STAR TREK script, even a new sequel to THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON at one point, but the depression and the guilt of writing something that is someone else's creation always kept getting to me. Like Xanadu, they were kind of a release of simple fan giddiness. I now try to strictly focus on developing my own works and worlds.
I've never posted any fan fiction on the net at all, mainly because I'd probably feel too hateful towards myself. It also doesn't help that most of the already existing FF out there is...well...
Shit.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Heather: One more note - because of my previously stated desire - I checked out/downloaded the sound "effects" offered by Lucas and Co. They were moderate quality rips from the soundtracks of the various films - thus many were completely useless for amateur use because of incidental "extra" sounds (background noises, music cues, etc.) Not that I should complain about the quality - Lucas did not have to offer anyone anything.
Heather: The only bit of fan filmmaking that I will likely ever do is a short bit with me wielding a lightsaber. (I have always wanted to own one and use it - since my sense of reality is a bit too firmly rooted - the closest I'll ever get is a quick short of igniting, swinging, slashing, destroying some innocuous cgi prop with one)
I did go through a phase of writing several scripts for a popular, but to-remain-nameless, SF show and one feature length script for a famous SF series that will also go nameless.
These were scripts I just HAD TO write at the time - I progressed to independant scripts and independant filmaking now.
I know some of you guys are into scripting stories for your comic, television or movie faves. Have any of you gotten into fan filmmaking? Fan filmmaking of favorite movies?
I ran across a Salon article (probably old) about Lucas having/promoting a fan filmmaking site. He was apparently offering libraries (of effects? or whatever) for use to filmmakers. Interesting...
Opinions?
I dug Star Wars/Star Trek/Indiana Jones, etc. for the popcorn/fun films they were. I be hard pressed to get psychological about those films. ("It just a MOVIE," said Tom Cruise to some rabid Anne Rice fans about "Interview with an Vampire" on an Oprah interview.)
But technologically speaking, I'm intrigued. Creating films (and film effects) that the studios are giving fans license to use--thus feeding the flames for further flicks, of course--you KNEW he wasn't just doing it outta the goodness of his Obi-wan heart. (Some Star Wars fan filmmaker ended up working on a Star Wars film apparently--not a bad day's hobby, I'd say.)
Holy cow, Batman.
Course with all that techology, why copy a storyline? Why not create a new one? Sorry, I've just never understood wanting to use someone else's characters. Just me. Hmmm..
Even as a 6 year old sitting in a theater, I knew STAR WARS wasn't grand cinema. It was fun, it was loud and it was funny.
Fast forward 25 years and I see the same kids that bought the 99 cent action figures and Kenner playsets giving Lucas credit for starting or igniting some spiritual movement. Jesus...it's just a fucking movie, and a KID'S MOVIE at that.
Re Lucas revisionism. To me, it's a combination of a genuine irritation and something beneath my concern. On the one hand, is Lucas's work really so sacrosanct that it should not be changed? As Ralph Bakshi said when he edited a _Mighty Mouse_ episode after Donald Wildmon's deranged complaints, "We're not talking about the Sistine Chapel here."
And for all of those people out there who need to see the works of Lucas, or Roddenberry for that matter, as some kind of meaningful Holy Writ, I _LIKE_ hearing about revisions. It spells out for these geeks exactly _how_ trivial these works really are. Yes, your leaders may _change their minds_. They may _erase the history you care so much about_. That's the kind of people you're worshipping. Face it. FACE IT!!! (Imagine Sam Kinison spewing that last line.)
But what's galling is the cavalier sense of history that these guys have. Okay, it's trivial stuff, but can't they leave well enough alone? The original did well enough-- and if Ray Harryhausen's films can survive the advances of _Jurassic Park_, then why can't Spielberg or Lucas try to compete on the merits of their films as well? (Better yet, why can't they take the money that such re-imaginings cost, and fund a really _original_ movie by some young filmmaker?)
I can understand having expanded or Director's Cuts-- fitting a film to a ninety-minute slot is tough work, and such editions offer filmmakers a chance to tell a story at a more leisurely, perhaps more effective, pace. (I'll give James Cameron credit for offering the Theatrical and Expanded versions of _Terminator 2_ and _The Abyss_. I can only wish that Lucas would do so.)
(By the way, I recall getting into a very long argument with a friend about the "Episode IV" title in the original _Star Wars_. He insisted that it had always been there. But, I pointed out, he was only four when it first came out; I was fourteen, saw the film ten times that summer, read the _Time_ and _Newsweek_ stories on the film, and not _once_ did I ever see that title card. After a lot of searching, I finally found a website that documented the change. The friend backed down... but even over such a trivial matter, I was amazed at how effectively the facts had been erased.)
Lurk: My memory insists that the revised title happened during the pre-Empire re-release of 1980 - but that's just my memory at the moment - I could be wrong. (I also seem to remember that some theaters were STILL showing the movie in 1980, from the initial release - so the confusion of the re-titling may stem from various prints floating around at the time) But - my Starlog archive is moderately reachable (it's in my closet of holding) - so I may try to dig 'em out tonight and get back to you - don't expect anything before 8pm Eastern Daylight Time, though...
I know both Empire and Jedi were numbered from day one, though.
Heather~ RE: Bill Moyers
THE POWER OF MYTH is the transcript from Bill Moyers' televised interviews with Joseph Campbell. He himself is not the expert, but he is an excellent interviewer.
L.
I got to about here, from that article:
"Better still, "the epics" make for an infinitely classier set of influences than stories rooted in what remains one of the most stubbornly down-market literary genres America has produced. Would an eminence grise like Bill Moyers want to be seen trifling with spaceships and ray guns? Would film buffs who pride themselves on knowing every nuance of a silly Western like "The Searchers" stoop to analyze a lowly science fiction movie? Certainly the New Yorker would not have sent John Seabrook to profile Lucas for its January 1997 issue if people thought there were nothing more than sci-fi thrills going on."
(I know the WRITER of this piece was being sarcastic--he's on the side of the science fiction genre...but)
Is there REALLY still such distain for the science fiction genre? I mean, REALLY?
I was looking at some Latin American novels last night. Do the intellectuals have a similar view of THAT STUFF TOO?
And horror? I mean, I read somewhere that that some people thought they started giving Stephen King awards, outside his specific genre (i.e. HWA), because the intellectuals now considered him "worthwhile" or summat?
Christ, how do writers in those genres put up with crap like this?
H
Finder, yes, revisionism is evil. My brother put is most succinctly when he said that it simply robs you of your memories. You go back to enjoy a film with your kid, and it's all changed, with "better" effects, new sounds, and even different actions (Greedo).
Sure, it's a just a stupid movie, but our tolerance of creators going back in and reworking their creations to suit contemporary tastes speaks volumes for our lack of concern for our pop cultural heritage. No-one would brook a "cleaning up" of Jackson Pollock's 'Blue Poles," nor would we tolerate a re-scoring of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring." (Well, not totally...Stokowski re-scored it for Disney's Fantasia, and Igor could do nothing, since he had no US copy protection).
Pop culture is important too. Digitizing prints and improving sound quality is one thing. But when you start changing the story, to conform to the sensibilities of the moment, we all get robbed.
Now that I've read the Salon piece on Star Wars, I'd like to add my recommendation that everyone read it. Not for Lucas' bland space operas, but for its handsome praise of Leigh Brackett. Good to see her get the credit she deserves. Now all we need is a Henry Kuttner article (g).
I've come across this guy; I realize he and Joseph Campbell got together on some stuff. Will I get the straight goods with his mythological views or should the fact that I recently saw a book of his in the library and not too far away a book of Robert Schuller's (is it?) that this guy might not be helpful?
Heather, shopping for mythology
Lurk - You're a being after mine own heart. I hate revisionism. I've stopped watching Tom & Jerry because of Ted Turner - and I found the experience of watching the bastardized "E.T." painful ("Look - that's the puppet"..."Look, that's the shitty CGI..." And so on. The one shot of feds holding their walkie talkies like guns is an absolute laugh out loud pisser). As for Greedo shooting first, I concur. Stupid. Left me feeling like Kathy Bates in "Misery". "Greedo never fired his cockadoodie gun!"
If the answer is in Starlog - and as a subscriber back in the day, I'm sure it is, because I remember the news blurb (and the word that the fan club was issuing a patch with the new title) when it first appeared - it's somewhere between issue 27 (which was in late 1978/early 1979) and issue 50something. Problem with the net references I've seen is that I've seen the year of the retitling put as 1978, 1979, 1980 and now 1981. Bottom line is, we need a print reference. I'd seek it out, but alas, the run of magazines is gone from the Finder archives, victim of the Move Purge. Hey XANADU - how accessible are your archives?
Lucasfilm will be of no help - they disavow the existence of the laughably bad TV 'sequel' "The Star Wars Holiday Special", so a few seconds of screen time changed on the feature won't amount to an ingrown hair on a wookie's ass. BUT, I would believe that it's entirely possible Star Wars still exists in some form with the original credit crawl - I find it hard to believe that Lucas and company could have accounted for every 35, 16 and even 8mm condensed print (and oh yes, they are supposed to exist) that would have been struck prior to 1979. It's out there, somewhere, probably in the hands of the same film collector who covets all of the footage excised from "The Magnificent Ambersons", the remaining trims from Cukor's "A Star Is Born" and those pesky jitterbugs of Oz - you know, the people who actually have more foresight than many of the filmmakers and studios.
It's ALL out there, Lurk - it's just a matter of knowing where to look.
Hey Xan (again) - Always remember, Lucas' motto is summed up in "Jedi": "What I told you was true - from a certain point of view." Recall, in at least one media outlet - that being "People" back in '77 - Lucas initially laid claim to twelve films. It was short-lived and quickly replaced by the nine-film paradigm, but it was reported.
>Lurk: The year you are looking for is 1980<
Xanadu, here's a lift from the site Stover referenced. I still wonder if the very first run of Empire was actually numbered.
--The first appearance of "Episode IV: A NEW HOPE" was on the new
prints struck for the two-week reissue of "Star Wars" on April 10,1981, nearly one year after the premiere of "Empire."--
Thanks to you all...as long as we never forget the most insulting revision of all..."Greedo shoots first." Argh.
While I refuse to see it, someone tells me that the re-release of E.T. has digitized the guns into cell phones. What's wrong with these people?
Oh, and remember -- Jack Kirby's New Gods, for all your remaining 'Where did Star Wars come from?' questions. The Promethean Giants are also a lot more interesting than, what is it now, three Death Stars? Well, the Doctor Doom welcoming the FF to the dinner table full-pager from a Kirby FF comic does look an awful lot like a scene from Empire, too...
Jon. May the Source...I mean the Force, neither Omega nor Astro...be with you
Ahh, it's good to be back (Short online hiatus due to real life) (A side note - Rick, I had one further thought re:Accident rules - but I think I'll email that to you, seeing as much water passes under the bridge if one is gone from here for even a few days.)
Lurk: The year you are looking for is 1980. It was during the re-release of Star Wars right before the release of Empire (though I think some theaters had shown it continuously for those three years) at that time was re-titled: Episode IV - A New Hope. Contrary to you and your friend's memories - Empire and Jedi ALWAYS had the episode numbers. (Early script drafts refer to them only as Episode V and VI respectively)
Having read every draft of Star Wars (A New Hope - I'm missing several for both Empire and Jedi), including the treatment - I can say, with some certainty, that while George initially may have noodled some of the backstory and future story for the universe - Star Wars was written as a standalone. The extra stuff he had written into the first two drafts of Star Wars do not resemble what he eventually got with Empire, Jedi, or the Prequel trilogy. Sure, he recycled some of the names, but details and histories are different (radically, in some cases).
It was during Star Wars' huge initial success, when Lucas first indicated he would make _9_ movies in the universe, including a sequel trilogy that apparently got trimmed from the plans - I remember Mark Hamill commenting that he would appear again in the ninth movie, an appearance which would tie all three trilogies together. Lucas stated at that time that the droids would be the only continuing characters through all nine films - acting as the audience touchstone.
The backpedalling and revisionism are clear throughout Empire and Jedi, as established relationships (Luke/Leia) and "facts" (Darth Vader killed your father) were altered to fit the new thinking.
I'm sorry - I don't have links to this - most of my research on this subject happened pre-internet, in the mid eighties. But I'm sure various drafts of Star Wars are floating around out there - you can read and understand for yourself.
Lurk:
Well, someone on the net has devoted a fair amount of energy to compiling an answer to the question 'When did A New Hope first appear on SW?' (in a 1981 re-release, apparently, with Empire inaugurating the episode titling/numbering thing a year earlier). But to give you the delight of looking at a revision history, I direct you to: http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html
Cheers,
Jon
Actually, it's just an index they'll be putting on, not the full issues.
Thanks for the tips...I checked Starlogs site, and they say they will be archiving their complete run soon. So this will be as good a place as any to look. Might be a handy resource for other genre searches as well.
http://www.starlog.com/search.htm
Lurk
Lurk:
You might have to go paper with this search, unless Starlog has taken to archiving vintage articles from the 1970s. Lucas was talking about nine parts before RotJ (to quote Dale Pollock's *Skywalking*, which was published in 1983, "If Lucas made all six of the remaining Star Wars movies at three-year intervals, the story wouldn't conclude until 2001"), and probably earlier. The novelization of Star Wars also has some quasi-historical scribblings from the future history-ish 'Book of the Whills' at the beginning of it that relate to this whole 'Star Wars is part of a larger story' thing.
As to the scroll, I seem to recall joking with friends about Empire suddenly being 'Episode V' in the opening scroll, but I may be hallucinating this.
Jon
Lurk,
I'm not a big Star Bores fan--never even bothered to see "Part 1"--but I recall seeing the "Part IV" designation on "A New Beginning" when the film first appeared in the seventies. I first saw it as a pirate, though, at the home of a Michigan publisher who shall, for obvious reasons, remain nameless.
---Alex
Speaking of Lucas Revisionism (matched only by the 40s Soviet Empire), I'm trying to pin down the exact date (or year) that the first movie (1977) became the "fourth" movie, and took on that stupid name.
When I saw Empire in the theater when it came out, there WAS no "part X" in the story crawl. And a friend of mine swears there was none in Return when that first hit the screens, either.
I'm guessing that these part numbers first appeared when the videos came out, as well as that awful "a new hope" title for the first movie. And probably not the first video release...maybe another one down the line. To listen to LucasFilm talk today, "A New Hope" was ALWAYS considered to be Part 4, was always called as such, and, like Disney erasing the shots of the black centaurs in Fantasia, the old story crawls without the part numbers now never officially existed.
Any links to documentation on this would be appreciated. Why, you ask? Because Lucas and his repolishing of his intentions and plans PISSES me off. Anyone really think Luke and Leia were meant to be related from the get-go? Or was that written in to capitalize on Ford's romantic popularity...
Lurk
Have to go with Brian and Lurk on this one. George really should've stuck with his quote "The word for this movie is fun" all the way back from 1977. It was true and it was honest. I wish some artists these days would realize they don't need to attach a classical reference to their work just to make themselves feel better. I should know; I've been studying both THE ODYSSEY and THE ILIAD for one of my courses and I haven't been able to recognize that much of a connection between Troy and the Death Star. What's so bad about science-fiction pulp? I think science-fiction pulp rules...
IMHO, I loved THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. If A NEW HOPE was adolescent nonsense, than EMPIRE STRIKES BACK was the good whap alongside the teenager's head. Think of just how damn DARK and PESSIMISTIC that movie is; Han Solo is frozen into a grimacing statue, Darth Vader turns out to be Luke's father, thus making Luke's conflict all the more painful; Luke gets his HAND lopped off; C-3PO is horribly mutilated (please do something even worse to Jar-Jar in ATTACK OF THE CLONES, please please please) and overall everyone is just having a plain rotten time.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
>Galactic Gasbag<
Good article...makes one pine for the days of Uncle Walt, who, despite his own failings as a person, never let the culture-vultures go to his head. Disney wanted to make money and provide a good time, and he did both, grandly. And they was just cartoons...
MICHAEL/ALIA: Here's hoping they put the bastard away for a long time.
But you know ...
I'd like to buy that man a cup of coffee.
Steaming hot.
You understand.
HEATHER: Many congrats on the job.
RICK: Nicely done.
(Truly, yours is a great and weighty mind.)
BARNEY: If you can bring Bob over here, all to the good; a little extra edrudition never hurt, though I don't know that we're necessarily hurting for that here.
DAVID: Hmm. Would you consider CHASING AMY an "embarassment movie"?
JUSTIN: I feel moved to song:
"JUSTIN! Has only one ball,
MENCKEN! Had two but very small,
Dworkin--can't stand that porkin'--'Cause most poor feminists/have no balls at all ..."
(The above should not be construed as representing any philosophical or political beliefs, but rather that I'm running on too much of a lack of sleep)
BRIAN: Oh, yessss ... I had wondered when someone in something approaching mainstream media would pick up on the many homage/thefts.
ALL: I find myself envious of the others here on the board, these last few days--Of Lynn, who can have visits from the Ellisons (and was that Loren D. Estleman that you met? Envy redoubles), to Cookie, who gets to sing for a living, to Michael and Scott, for having (and being had by) Alia and Melissa ... dunno. Just a weird and wonky week.
Happy Birthday, Colonel Potter!
Ooooh, this is a goody, gang. Salon has a WONDERFUL piece skewering George Lucas's continual citations of Joseph Campbell-- and places everything he's ever dreamed in its original context of Golden Age SF writers.
HARLAN, if you're reading this, browse to http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/04/10/lucas/index.html and read the piece "Galactic Gasbag." You'll like it.
Don't you always wonder what the deal is with people who come to websites and ding on the subject? I mean, what are they thinking--that they'll walk into a room full of people congregated because they share an affection for one particular thing, proceed to complain/insult it, and then walk out unscathed?
I see this time and time again, and I can only conclude that they are either abysmally stupid or just messing around. I am slightly conflicted, however, because although I feel bad about the hurt feelings and the time wasted by the potential flame wars that develop, I also feel a sick thrill on reading one of these posts and listening into the cyberspace for the lighting of matches and sharpening of pointy sticks...
Evening all, just a little post to kill the hour until I can empty the kiln. I hope all's good for everyone.
Michael: Good, the little creep is caught. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find he's got a fair list of priors, and perhaps is looking at sonme extend jail time. Here's to the hope, anyhow.
Feminism: I'm an equalist, not a feminist. Equal rights, equal pay, but I also wish to see equal responsibities, an example being why it is that conviction and sentencing rates for women who commit capital crimes will always end with life in prison, while men in most cases will face the death penalty. Sorry gals, but murder is murder, and there shouldn't be discrimination based on gender.
Well, Scotty's probably going to be out of the loop for a few days; playoffs for all the leagues, as well as a number of flea markets coming up. We'll keep track of the league, and perhaps just post a brief message there. Enjoy yourselves.
Love to all, Melissa
Lynn: That hurts me. That just hurts me.
It ain’t da quannidy, it’s da qwali-tay!
J
Apparently nobody here knows what a topper is. I'm not totally clear on it myself, but having grown up in timber country, I believe that's the logger who climbs to nearly the top of a tall tree and cuts the top off, so the tree can serve as a bracing posts for lines used in logging a hillside below. Something like that, Harlan? Very dangerous job. You sometimes see old b&w photos of guys standing on the tall flat plateau of a topped pine.
Cindy asked how Harlan got his Mom to let him go work in the north woods at 14. Short answer: She didn't. He ran away from home. Several times. Starting at age 13.
Cindy also slammed feminists, which is an easy and stupid thing to do. Also an unfortunate one in these environs. Some of Harlan's best friends are feminists. Even ones I don't particularly like, such as Gloria Allred.
I must be the "David, noted feminist" Heather was referring to a couple days ago. Sorry, Heather, can't help you with books about the "science of storytelling/mythology." Other than reading Merlin Stone's _When God Was a Woman_ a LONG time ago, I haven't dipped into that area.
And don't let my wife catch you calling me a feminist. She'll laugh to bust a gut. Once my book comes out, a lot of feminists will be after my hide. Nevertheless, I say we all owe the women's movement a lot. And there are some GREAT feminists out there, doing good work and writing terrific books. I just can't help you with the storytelling/mythmaking angle, because it doesn't interest me, personally.
I only just started reading LeGuin carefully a month ago (don't tell Harlan), because I saw her work was woefully underrepresented on AllReaders.com, where I do a lot of reviewing. Some jerk called _Left Hand of Darkness_ "hackwork" there, so I figured I'd better catch up on LeGuin and do some necessary corrections.
Michael:
Congrats, and keep us posted on the scuzzball's progress through the system.
Jodie Foster v. Hollywood. I haven't followed the story, but she certainly speaks for all of us who really love films, rather than look to them for mere escape and assuagement of our prejudices and anxieties. She's undoubtedly frustrated in part because she has difficulty getting films made that she wants to do. After the "institution has been good to her" just kind of says it all, don't it? We don't award great work on its own merits -- we scratch one another's back. The Academy shone a lot better when it insisted on recognizing the great work of actors who spurned it, such as George C. Scott and Marlon Brando.
I didn't bother to see "Meet the Parents" or any of the other Farrelly movies, but I know what you guys mean about "embarrassment movies." The one that made me uncomfortable was "Running On Empty" -- I think that was the name. Stiller again? Tea Leoni was in it, as were George Segal and Mary Tyler Moore. But the poor protagonist just kept getting thrown into one shameful situation after another, and while I could stand it fine on the screen, I got rather upset about all the raucous laughter around me in the theater. Why does this work in British comedies such as "A Fish Called Wanda" (where Cleese repeatedly gets embarrassed), yet seem so hamfisted and even meanspirited in American ones?
Re: groinal injuries. Many years ago, a county commissioner in southern Oregon well known for his malapropisms (the best was "We're gonna turn this county around 360 degrees!") once explained his absence from a meeting by saying he had fallen astride a fence and "injured one of my tentacles."
Regarding Mencken's "anti-Semitism" -- I vaguely remember Gore Vidal sternly addressing this issue (as in, defending the sage of Baltimore) in an introduction to a fairly recent collection of Mencken's writings. Can't recall exactly what he said, though. Shouldn't be hard to find if anyone wants to look it up.
LW -
Most recent major role (not really "vehicle") to get a vibe for the guy...
Miracle Mile (1989) starring Anthony Edwards
Larger Roles worth a look...
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949)
Sands of Iwo Jima (1949)
Along the Great Divide (1951)
Breakthrough (1950)
Good viewing!
B-Movie legend John Agar has just passed away. I have yet to see a film where he had a large part, but among his works are ZONTAR THE THING FROM VENUS, WOMEN OF THE PREHISTORIC PLANET, JOURNEY TO THE SEVENTH PLANET, THE BRAIN FROM PLANET AROUS (can't get enough of dem planets), MOLE PEOPLE, and TARANTULA. I know that movies don't nearly sum up a man's life, but with titles like these, I think they summed up a helluva lot.
Can anyone hear recommend a good John Agar vehicle? I want to become at least a little acquainted with this man.
RIP, John.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Cindyana Jones: I knew you were just kidding. I've gotten a feel for when people are doing that, especially with Todd and Harlan, who can rib ya so's ya don't know if you've been ribbed unless you can read their "tone". Not easy to do on the net.
And yes, I DO need to get out more often. I'm working on it.
Michael & Alia: Glad to hear about the bad guy getting nabbed. See? Sometimes it does happen. I'll bet it's a BIG relief.
Heather: Congrats on the new job. Feels good, don't it?
Brian: Say, I do recall your mentioning a Nautilus model earlier. Is it the Harper Goff Design from the Disney film? If you like 20,000 Leagues, try THIS website. It's gorgeous!
http://home.att.net/~karen.crisafulli/nautilus.html
Chuck
*** Rick *** Good on ya mate. I had considered something similar but couldn't bring myself to drag the Ansible quotes in here. It's prissy of me since Harlan has been dealing with this sort of thing since I was a Hershey bar in my dads back pocket as Laurie Anderson used to sing.
*** The Mencken thread *** On the theory that if you can't actually be smart you can at least have smart friends I have taken the time to cozy up to a fellow out in Pittsburgh by the name of Bob Bravard. I have not been able to get him to lurk over here but after today I suppose that's just as well.
At any rate, in the discussion group I share with Mr. Bravard I cross-posted my Mencken piece along with a precis of the follow-up remarks. This was his initial response -
> about H.L. Mencken.
> ---Oh, boy. There was a time in America when H.L. Mencken was the most significant literary and public affairs commentator around. He was a fierce foe of censorship, puritanism, and prohabition, and public dishonesty of any sort. I recommend you go to a large and strong public library and read your way through the six or so volumes all entitled PREJUDICES. These would be his essays that he wanted to publish. His deconstruction of William Jennings Bryan and Warren G. Harding remain models of savagery. To see a different side, there are his three volumes of memoirs, all with Days in the title. His TREATISE ON THE GODS still holds up. And of course once he went out of style with American tastemakers, he turned to THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE, and did valuable work there. Your time will be well spent, Barney, in reading Mencken, although you might want to read an overview of U.S. history from about 1900 to 1930 to catch a lot of his side remarks.
I then mentioned the remarks about anti-semitism and this was his follow-up...
Based on my reading of the several biographies of Mencken and of his work, I would suggest that as is typical of so many individuals of that era, he could be anti-Semitic in general and yet totally without prejudice to a given individual. Certainly this is hardly ideal, but it beats the behavior of Henry Ford and others of such ilk of that time period. One of the great things about Mencken as editor was his willingness to publish anybody who could write decently and who had something of interest to say.
And, Barney, all my working life I was a librarian and one of the things, librarians do is answer questions about subjects of which the person asking doesn't know. The last person who knew "everything" possibly was Ben Franklin. I certainly don't "know" an immense number of things, but I like to think I do know how to find out the answer to just about anything.
Sure, cross-post anything of mine you want to.
Bob Bravard
I tell ya folks, I hope I can get him over here. He's about the same age as Harlan and "may" be the only other person who has read or processed as much as Harlan has. Recent topics on the other board were Thorne Smith and Will Cuppy. He was pretty happy to hear we were discussing "The Seven Who Fled" over here awhile back and the scary thing is this guy keeps up with the Indy comics scene and hands the stuff off to bowling Green when he's done. Wish I was that un-selfish.
- Barney
Susan, if you are still in need of a scanner that would likely do the job. Let me know.
Ibarionex
I never said that the "hacktervism" practice was legal, but things that are considered legal or illegal are up for ethical debate; like the drug war.
Also, breaking the law has been celebrated in our history: Anyone remember the Boston Tea Party?
Janice-
I'm going to respond to your post using a method keenly honed by Dave Langford, publisher of ANSIBLE, a man in whose defense you have so vociferously appeared:
I agree with you completely. One shouldn't put posts up on the internet using insulting language, demeaning another person, or being sarcastic.
For example, if I were to describe a Harlan Ellison con appearance by saying: "once again the great man mingled with sf fans in order to announce, `I try to stay as far away from sf fandom as I possibly can.'," and later "Under these circumstances, any ordinary person would be humbly grateful to NESFA for undoing a little of the harm he has done. But Ellison is made of sterner stuff," then you'd be right on calling me on my sarcasm.
Or if on April Fool's Day I had poked at an old wound by posting "Sir Christopher Priest, in the wake of editing Harlan Ellison's 75th birthday Festschrift last year, has sold a story to that eagerly awaited anthology The Last Dangerous Visions," well then, you'd be right in labasting me for not meeting your "standards of a fair fight."
Or maybe if I'd used a third of a newsletter to promulgate an attempt by Charles Platt to gather damning information about Harlan Ellison called the "Ellison Information Library," well, you'd be justified in being put out. Especially if shortly after this Platt decided a better name would be "Enemies of Ellison."
If I'd described news of an author's book being delayed as having been "gleefully" passed on, if I'd continually referred to a man as "weighty" or "great" with all the haughty sarcasm of an MoP, if I'd without exception used every mention of a man in my posts to insult him or poke ill-meant fun at his failings, well then, I suppose you'd have no choice but to come onto the message board and dress me down properly.
Even though your interpretation of Harlan's intent seems to be confused by an I'm sure well-meant accidental substitution of the word "website" for "crowing," we can all agree that your censuring of his methods was completely reasonable. After all, what sort of person makes such denigrating comments about another without provocation?
It is a good thing we have concerned people in the world like you, Janice Gelb, to protect the innocent and never-even-slightly-insulting Dave Langford from the predations of the weighty, great, "pugnacious hypochondriac" Harlan Ellison.
One more thing, Frank, before you protest: I feel justified in my little rib at "websight" because you misspell it the same way three times in the same post.
Lynn, but remember, that everyone decides who has a "prepared mind" and who does not. Facts are never enough. Some of my flame wars have proven that point out in spades.
--------------------------
Micheal, congrats buddy!!
Frank,
Whether website or "websight," hacking (even if for supposedly moral reasons) is still illegal and unethical. Think of it in terms of this analogy: it's quite legal and ethical to protest long and hard outside of a company's gates, but if you invade the gates and start spray-painting the furniture, you're breaking the law and looking like an ill-mannered goon. Don't fall into the fallacy of thinking there are different rules for the on-line world as opposed to everything else.
Regards,
Joseph
Frank,
It seems to me that you're essentially arguing that the ends justify the means. Interfering with someone else's free speech "for ethical reasons" is unethical. You have your own freedom of speech. Use it, don't take away someone else's.
--Alex
Actually, hacking into someones site for ethical reasons is justified in my opinion. There is a term called, "hacktervism" which is used by online pranksters to mess with over zealous forms of authoritarian society.
In England there is a group called, the Electro Hippies, who have only met online, but combine forces to cyberfuck unsuspecting websights as a form of radical protest: Like crashing the Nike websight, because of their dismal third world record. Or hacking into the Mexico government websight, to mess with it's homepage. They prevented people normal access to the sight, diverting them instead to a page that read in part: "No Human rights found on this server."
This is a way to keep powerful people honest. Since they have the overriding power in their court, this kind of cyber sabatage seems like apt revenge. Simular things have been done to the WTO web page.
Okay, the actual link is so long as to be intimidating, so I'll just paste the link to the link. Oh wait, that might be illegal too.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064164
"Is 'Other Web Sites' Illegal?"
The Financial Times' Patti Waldmeir says a little-noticed appeals court ruling declares that linking is against the law.
L.
Justin~ You honestly think she'll date a guy with only one nut?
L.
Gosh, is that's all it takes to be appalling, why do I work so hard to get under Frank's and Lurk's skin?
Maybe she meant she found it appealing? The net is often rife with missspelinggs.
-TODD
Lynn: Leave my girlfriend alone.
Also, Janice, I reread Mr. Ellison's request, and found the language to be anything but "appalling".
L.
Ms. Gelb, not to be unkind, but you seem to be putting an extreme and unjustified interpretation upon Harlan's remarks. I thought the meaning was clear: let the folks on the site know the "he's dead in the water" assumption was wrong. He said to put a chokehold on the _crowing,_ not the site itself.
In other words, curb your paranoia, before it makes a mess on the floor.
--Alex
Janice: Can I have your phone number, sweety pie? You're cute when you're appalled.
J
Janice~ You're so far behind in this game you really have no business rendering an opinion. You can comment all you like on the dailies, but until you've seen the whole picture, all you're doing is coming off as woefully uninformed.
Rick, I can't find "Bugfuck". Could you please post the link?
Respectfully,
L.
I just read Mr. Ellison's call to action regarding Ansible's coverage of his AOL trial. I find it appalling that instead of first writing to Dave Langford, the editor of Ansible, to clarify
the coverage, Mr. Ellison's first reaction was to call, in insulting language, for people to "put a chokehold" on the Ansible web site. I don't think that trashing other people's property is the mature answer to any serious problem, but at the very least it should be the answer of last resort only once all other means of resolution have failed. And I think any standard of a fair fight is that it is only between the two combatants, not by one side calling in hordes of people to do his dirty work for him.
but you see my point. Be you kidding or not, I tippy-toe around that word--feminist. (Why does that rhyme with fist?) I was doing "femi-moves" before they started pulling their bras off but I wasn't aware my 'moves' had a label and a potential to piss people (especially guys) off.
How is it that the word masculine can evoke a "So? Will you come on, let's go!" response; whereas the word feminine or feminist (not the same, I know) can evoke a, "oh, god, are THEY in here?"
Nor fair, not fair, not fair. I didn't even have boobs to speak of til I was about 25. Give me a break! *laugh*
So dat's my point. There IS something to being the female equivalent of an Indiana Jones BUT my version has a completely different worldview so.. I want to figure out what that looks like on paper.
Ech..labels.. I HATE labels..
Heather
"Chance favors the prepared mind." Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
L.
*** CEP *** A genuine thank you for your post this morning. There were aspects of that ruling that I wanted to take comfort in and your post gives me some measure of hope. Thank you.
*** Lurk *** As someone who has to go through life with the name Barney allow me to express my sympathy regarding your mothers poor choice. I seldom feel loathed or dismissed in this little electronic den. As for obsessiveness and digging for malice, I was aiding a friend with a bibliographical project and I called them as I saw them. And finally, as for inoffensiveness, 15+ years of snide, slanted, and meanspirited press releases are only inoffensive if they are not written about you or your friends.
*** Faisal *** "whining"? "bitchiness"? Then close with a threat and a wink and tell us it's all a joke... Hey, David - I think we may have found a new stringer for Ansible! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha cough. You see I'm laughing 'cause it's a joke. It's a joke because I tell you it's - oh, never mind.
None of it's funny and it never was.
*** John *** As someone who is down 6 figures from where I was two years ago I can say that well wishes and posterity count for little when your standing in the grocery lane. Nevertheless, it's nice of you to say those things on Harlan's behalf.
- Barney
You can get gas and cigs--bribe your friends wit' em, I know you don't smoke--at least not in a cigarette way--and chips and gravel (gravel? he said gravel?) from me, okay?
Chocolates are on me. Hell, maybe it's time I hit Castelyn's in Brandon.
Heather still loves ya though yer a pissy ole guy, standing on a street corner with a dirty fedora in hand, and a chewy expression, saying, 'what did you just say to me, me ya pustulent punk?"
I'm watching the Queen's funeral on the tv right now...good god, it's beautiful. I think I'm going to crack.
what's that quote? "Change/chance favors the prepared mind?" or summat like that?
In the course of one day, I got a new job and I THINK I may have a line (should she decide to exercise an option) at another apartment.
The sunny is shining in Winnipeg. Even though we still have snow.
Heather
>I just want to know why your "J'Accuse" finger is pointed so angrily<
There is no anger here. Nor accusation. This is not a summary judgement on Ridley Scott's character. I'm sure he's a swell fellow, a gentleman at the poker table, a loving father, etc.
It's simply an assessment of the tone of much of the man's work. It's an opinion, Todd. I'm not going to give you a laundry list of "examples" to berate and deny. You can give me examples of how the films are not misanthropic, if you'd like...
Lurk, "The misanthropy endemic in Hannibal (and Alien, and Blade Runner, and possibly Thelma and Louise, although I only saw that once) has nothing to do with the violence in those films".
Fine. Now please, give examples where these films show that Ridley Scott is a misanthrope, as opposed to any other director in the industry. Examples. What makes a director of Hollywood films a misanthrope. I know Mr. Siano's opinion on misanthropy, and agree with it. Hell, I often lean toward misanthropic tendencies, but I just want to know why your "J'Accuse" finger is pointed so angrily at Mr. Scott because of these films.
Why is Alien misanthropic? Thelma and Louise? And why not Jaws? Or Silence of the Lambs? Or more than 50% of today's films? And if your belief is that they ARE misanthropic, then is it also your belief that just because a person makes these films it means they are mankind hating slime?
You see, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't care to defend Scott, or any other person who works in any other industry. I just think strong statements like yours need to be backed up by examples.....not film titles....but examples of why those film titles make a human being a misanthrope in your eyes (unless you are a personal acquaintance of the man and you know what he truly feels).
-TODD
Misanthropic themes are not necessarily linked to violence. Coppola and Scorcese both have made very violent films, yet these films are not, in my opinion, misanthropic.
The misanthropy endemic in Hannibal (and Alien, and Blade Runner, and possibly Thelma and Louise, although I only saw that once) has nothing to do with the violence in those films.
Nor does it detract from the importance of some of those films. Alien and Blade Runner are classics. Thelma and Louise is considered something of a feminist landmark.
The director most associated with the term misanthropy (do a web search if you don't believe me) is Kubrick. His films very rarely featured all-out violence.
>Did he tell you that he did this movie to wash away the stench <
Yes, he did. Although he didn't use the word "stench."
Scott the misanthrope: it's finally a descriptive call. Any "example" I give you will simply be my own reading of what I feel constitutes misanthropy. You will simply retort back that said example is NOT, in your opinion, misanthropy.
I don't do these kind of "arguments" anymore, because they're not arguments. Just opinions, and who can yell the loudest. I mean, you're suddenly gonna say "golly Lurk, you're right! I never thought of it that way...Ridley Scott really IS a misanthrope!" Or I'm gonna say "shit, Todd! The blinkers fell off my eyes! Ridley is a lover, not a fighter!"
Hardly. So why waste our breath "defending" our opinions? It's like arguing over whether today is a nice day or not.
You know, it's funny...I recall foul-mouthing SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, SEVEN, HANNIBAL and the like some time ago because I believed it glorified serial killers, that they transformed them into some sort of uber-race of humans. I still feel the same way, but there's something about HANNIBAL...I'm not certain...perhaps it's the overall tragic tone of the film that makes it a little bit more exemplary. HANNIBAL is about romance, in the vein of BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN in that it's utterly freakish and yet noble and stirring.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I'm still wondering what's so bad about misanthropy. I mean, apart from the fact that, even if we like _them_, they still don't like _us_.
Lurk, you still did not give me examples of Ridley Scott being a misanthrope. Simply stating that he directed a movie based on a piece of shit novel does not prove misanthropy. The writer wrote the story, Scott was chosen to direct it (and he accepted) and Hopkins chose to reprise his famous role. So? What makes the movie so misanthopic anyway? Because it deals with a serial killer and has violence? Gee, that's half the movies out today. Hopkins decided to reprise a role in what was effectively a bad sequel, made only watchable due to the superb Hopkins (he raises ANYTHING he does to another level)and some interesting direction....whoop dee doo, that doesn't sully his rep in the least. It was his role (leaving out the much smaller appearance of Hannibal in MANHUNTER), and he starred in the sequel. Can you count 1000 other times that a lesser sequel was made of a better movie?
It's amazing how you know Hopkins' motives for doing Hearts In Atlantis. Did he tell you that he did this movie to wash away the stench (god, you make me giggle) of Hannibal? Or did he do this for A) money and B) it's the type of role Hopkins has been known for of late? To tell you the truth, Hearts In Atlantis is probably the least of his films of the last decade. Meet Joe Black, undeservedly shredded by many (cut the silly corporate subplot down about 25 minutes and you have a splendid film), is far superior and was seen by none.
Misanthrope - One who hates mankind. Wow, directing a bad book, and staying faithful to that bad book (except the ending) suddenly makes Ridley Scott a hater of mankind. Ohhhh, violence. Let us condemn the Godfather I and II while we're at it. Damn that misanthropic Coppola! Damn him to hell!
John Pickett~
As true as your sentiments are, they don't buy groceries. This is my cue to plug the Webderland schwag store. Five dollars of every purchase goes to the KICK Internet Piracy fund. And the mugs are HUGE.
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
We now return you to reality, already in progress.
L.
Harlan writes..Thank you for your clarifications. The case does, indeed, continue. And when I win--a win for ALL writers--I suspect
I'll have expended every cent I've managed to save in the last twenty years, as I am now more broke than I have
been since the day I first started writing professionally. Nonetheless, if all goes well, I'll have made things
somewhat safer for writers, and perhaps that will buy me a brief pass in ANSIBLE's Hall of Idiots. But, again,
thank you for the clarifications.
DEAR HARLAN;
You are the richest man on earth if for the only reason when you are long gone every one of your written,spoken and/or multi-media creations will continue to be read and enjoyed by every living person on this planet (and other planets hopefully)
Your legacy is a life time of writing that is as eternal as the ability to read a book,see a movie or even listen to an audio recording! Shoot I work 40+ hours a week barely make it payday to payday and I know that 2 seconds after I'm dead & buried the only thing I'll leave behind for posterity is my postings on the net,bills and probably a handful of photos and whatever is left in my closet.
i know your fight continues and victory is yet to come(Why do I hear the song Impossible Dream from "Man of La Mancha" whenever I think of your legal fight?)
John
Now back to our regularly scheduled program
It seems to be the curse of British actors that their admirable work ethic (must be making a film at all times) starts to impinge on the artistic legacy of their work.
Hopkins has been excellent in many good films, but now we are we seeing the slide of a man who can't say no to a script? Red Dragon? More serial killers?
Caine is another one who was once a "fine actor." And he can still do it, when he puts his mind to it. So we can forgive thinkgs liek Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, since everyone's entitled to some fun, but then the rubbish heap starts getting scarily large: Cassel listed just a few of the recent offerings best left to starving actors.
Even Olivier, in the end, starting making crap. I guess they want to reach the popcorn set. That, or get the young girls who go see The Betsy.
LURK: I'm not sure whether Mr. Hopkins is even coated with the fine layer of dirt you mentioned, or he just plain doesn't care. The fact that he's starring in RED DRAGON (I really don't believe this chatter that it's a remake of MANHUNTER - the only real relation is it's based on the same book) proves that he really does have something for Hannibal the Cannibal. True, Sir Hopkins hammed it up far more in HANNIBAL than the entire duration of SILENCE, but personally I always love a classic actor who once in a while takes the stick out of his butt and has a rollickin' good time.
Frankly, the one single moment that made HANNIBAL work for me was the beautiful, split-second shot of the tear falling from Lecter's eyes at the climax. I'm willing to argue for all eternity on that one.
Bit of a shock to suddenly see David Langford pop up on the board...he deserves at least one nod of honour...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
>And, Lurk, what makes Ridley Scott misanthropic? Because he directed an adaption of an idiotic book and put all the same violence and plot from that book into the adaption<
Well, you are what you do. Idiotic violence indeed.
TO DAVID LANGFORD:
Thank you for your clarifications. The case does, indeed, continue. And when I win--a win for ALL writers--I suspect I'll have expended every cent I've managed to save in the last twenty years, as I am now more broke than I have been since the day I first started writing professionally. Nonetheless, if all goes well, I'll have made things somewhat safer for writers, and perhaps that will buy me a brief pass in ANSIBLE's Hall of Idiots. But, again, thank you for the clarifications.
Respectfully, Harlan Ellison
Lynn, yeah, but that was in FRESNO. What can anyone expect from the honyocks in that dorf.
When all is said and done, Ellison will have the last laugh. The farts and fumers will just fade away. For ever ten that scoff, there's thousands that adore. It's just the scoffers who amble over to Fresno just to get all pissy when they hear the word FUCK used in public.
I say ignore them. "Those who hate us" is a dull topic, and too often feeds paranoia.
CEP,
Nicely said. Langford is going to print a correction and has posted on this board, that seems fine by me. Now can we stop whining about this or do you all want the next issue of Ansible dedicated to the bitchiness of HE Bulletin Board participants ;-)
FAQ
- The above was a joke.
Todd:
Main Entry: 2lark
Function: noun
Etymology: 3lark
Date: circa 1811
: something done solely for fun or adventure
Jaws 4, Miss Congeniality, and Get Carter would all qualify as larks for Caine. None of these movies was presented as a serious piece of work. Nor do we take them as such.
Hannibal, on the other hand, was a high-profile, prestige film with some heavy hitters (Hopkins and Scott) running the show. Given the immense critical and financial success of Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal was guaranteed a huge audience right out of the box, as well as instant Oscar evaluation, lengthy articles in the better film magazines, and a major marketing push.
So no, this was no lark. And yes, it dropped the ball in just about every way. It played no better than a Friday the 13th installment, and in many ways it played a lot worse, since these were serious men going about their business (the writers included), not just hacks cranking out teen films. Here's to the hacks, by the way...at least there's some humor to be found in those flicks.
Lush camerawork and well-delivered lines don't make up for a trashy, exploitative story that reveled in gore and dehumanizing its characters. Ridley Scott lost his shot at the director's Oscar for Gladiator because of this one. No-one wants to award this kind of dreck, or the kind of mind that produces it. Hopkins will need some time to wash the stench of this flick off.
At the risk of making Harlan foam at the mouth--hell, I'M foaming at the mouth--I offer the following link to a speech by AOL's incoming CEO, in which he says that broadcasters and media must beware of pirates.
(to satisfy Rick, there are no HTML tags here, merely an address; you'll need to add the tags in front of it)
zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-878468.html
Gee, Mr. Parsons, does this explain why AOL has spent so much on attorney's fees fighting accusations of much-easier-to-find-and-exploit piracy?
Lurk~ I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. At the 12th Annual William Saroyan Writers' Conference in Fresno this past weekend, I watched Ellison's reputation ripple through that gathering like the smell of smoke through a Disney forest. Ellison's frank way of speaking, his trademark brook-no-bullshit-from-anyone attitude, and even his relatively harmless habit of using the word 'fuck' in every day conversation, all of these things combine to make waves. People in the writing world (and yes, this is my first toe in the water, but I think after three days, I saw enough to glimpse the bigger picture) seem to speak of Ellison as if he were some juggernaut of malicious intent. A literary tazmanian devil.
I also saw, behind tired eyes, how much that reputation hurt him. I won't say that it's undeserved, but I will note that I saw much more than those looking for barbs. I saw him handling with kid gloves a girl whose writing style was much more suited to someone ten years younger. I saw him charm old ladies and make little kids giggle. I heard about (unfortunately failed to witness) him rubbing a chocolate bon-bon across his chest just to get a laugh out some of his especially stoic fellow faculty members. These things resonate on in my *personal* impression of Ellison. I can only observe and report my impressions, and my impression is that Harlan only turns that double-barreled wit and intensity on those he feels, by their own actions, have earned it and can take it, like the professionals and adults he expects them to be.
Another impression I walked away with, that of Ellison being understood on a different level by the talent in the room. (Talent defined by actual publishing or editing accomplishment, not by any vague, nebulous criteria I might define). There were those in that room who had never read Ellison who scoffed to me, "All he can do is talk about how good he is." My response? "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."
Let the petty keep serving up the shit sandwiches. They are, in my humble estimation, a pack of hyenas feasting on the bones of of a lion's latest kill, all the while muttering under their breath that they could have done better with less, and have been more humble about it in the doing.
Respectfully,
L.
And, Lurk, what makes Ridley Scott misanthropic? Because he directed an adaption of an idiotic book and put all the same violence and plot from that book into the adaption (except for the laughable, horrendously absurd ending)? Why does Ridley Scott hate mankind? What is so horrible about Ridley Scott beyond any other Hollywood ego?
Misanthropic is a nasty word to toss around about someone without giving examples.
-TODD
Lurk, Jaws 4 was a lark but Hannibal was a piece of shit? Michael Caine knows where to draw the line? Well, other than Jaws 4, in the last year + Caine has been in Miss Congeniality and Get Carter.
But forget those....bashing Hopkins for Hannibal is obscene compared to letting Caine off the hook for Jaws:The Revenge because "it was a lark."
P.S. I enjoy most of the films that Ridley Scott has directed. Greatly enjoy! He is one director that can get me into a movie regardless of the topic. Not many can do that.
-TODD
Just a minor correction to Mr. Langford's apology:
Mr. Langford relied upon an article at BNA. I have spoken to the people at BNA. THEY DID NOT READ THE OPINION. Instead, they relied upon AOL's press release--which was not written by a "savvy lawyer" (none of AOL's lawyers, IMNSHO, qualify), and was in any event self-serving. Mr. Langford can hardly be blamed for relying upon a news source often relied upon by lawyers. The news source, however...
Specific corrections:
(1) The case WAS NOT dismissed. The article correctly notes that one copyright theory was dismissed. It does not note that a second copyright theory was dismissed, but that the third (contributory infringement) was NOT--and, in fact, was held over for trial. It only takes one theory of infringement to win.
(2) AOL WAS NOT provided with immunity. Judge Cooper did NOT rule that AOL could not be held liable. She was very careful not to do so. Instead, she ruled that AOL qualified for limitations on remedies available to parties who win an infringement action (17 U.S.C. § 512(a), the DMCA). Although these limits make continuing with a suit problematic, THEY ARE NOT A FREE PASS ON LIABILITY. Instead, the situation is much more akin to being found liable for libel, but assessed nominal damages of one dollar. The finding of liability is still there; there just isn't a remedy for it.
When the motion for summary judgment results in a complete victory, as claimed by AOL, the judge's opinion always says so right at the end. That Judge Cooper's opinion does NOT end with the traditional phrase that the matter is dismissed should have been a big f&*)(^&)%()*!g hint to any lawyer that there was something else going on here.
In Mr. Langford's defense, he has been very open to the possibility of publishing a correction (and will be doing so shortly, according to private e-mail). In Harlan's defense, he should not have to put up with misleading press releases by the opposition that manage to bollix everything up. In AOL's defense... well, screw that.
Harlan Ellison is one of the most popular science-fiction writers (that's the section he's shelved in, so I'm going with it) in the world. He has more awards than just about anyone else in the fantasy-speculative field. He has the wide-ranging respect and friendship of any writer in the genre who counts, including Bradbury, Pohl, the late Asimov, and Silverberg. Fans the world over snap up anything new or old with his name on it. He has successfully crossed over into TV and movies and continues to get work from high-paying, popular sources. On the balance, I'd say he was pretty damn successful, and pretty darned admired.
So digging for "malicious" comments in the vague and pretty inoffensive press blurbs of an online British newsletter seems to me pretty obsessive. If you want to feel loathed, or be the "running dog" of someone who you think is loathed, then you'll find dismissiveness anywhere you look, since there's always a crank at the party. Maybe it's time to smell the roses, and ignore the very occasional weed.
>I still can't comprehend why Jodie turned down HANNIBAL<
Ask Anthony Hopkins. While the money was obscene, his reputation hasn't recovered from that tasteless piece of shit. He quickly made "Hearts in Atlantis" as an effort to remediate, but no-one saw the flick.
Even Michael Caine knows where to draw the line, no matter how fat the check. Jaws 4 was stupid, but it was a lark. Hannibal is just an ugly movie from an embittered, misanthropic director.
*** Faisal *** I'm going to have to disagree with you on the malicious part. At least when it comes to Harlan. Without getting to far into matters of "tone" or reading between the lines the evidence just doesn't support your slant. I just finished re-reading everything that was said about Harlan in Ansible from 1987 to 1998. Throw in the 2 from this year and you have a record of 21 for 21 - articles that derive either their humour or their point at Harlan's expense. Now unless I missed some sort of love fest between these two at the turn of the millenium, nothing has changed.
David can be funny and witty [the notion of Christopher Priest being Knighted is very funny for example] and at least he publishes this stuff under his own name and that counts for much on the net these days BUT he's also smart enough to know exactly what he's doing. Jamming a needle into you is one thing. Telling you that he didn't jam a needle into you or that if he did it was an accident or that if it wasn't an accident it was for your own good and besides it didn't really hurt are all very different matters.
Barney,
Dave Langford commented as he wanted to clarify the issue concerning his reporting of Harlan's battle against AOL. Langford is a wonderfully funny commentator who already earned my respect for putting one over Whitley 'aliens love probing my arse' Streiber. I doubt he has a malicious bone in his body and Ansible is a funny read both in Interzone and its on-line equivalent.
Best.
FAQ
Normally a post by David Langford here would be the sort of thing that would put me in Ellison "running dog mode". That is now an old GENIE joke. But after staring at this for a couple of minutes (and cut and pasting its contents into my Ellison/Ansible file - proving that once the virus infects you it never leaves) I figure to mostly give it a pass. If somebody hands you a shit sandwich, sprinkles some sugar on it and walks away the smart thing to do is not take a big bite to see just what the shit to sugar ratio might be.
After reading the 40 page court decision and the synopsis I think the thing that makes me most want to scream with frustration is that sc*ent*l*gy litigation might muddy the waters. What a world.
And, to close on a positive note I will say that Mr. Langford actually posted this under his own name. It's not saying much, but after following this sniping since the 1980's [and you would think five minutes of real news would cure me of this] it puts Mr. Langford above most of the other participants. What the participant still gets out of this after 16 years is a puzzlement.
- Barney [who ended up in running dog mode after all]
ps. If the fellow who was archiving GENIE files a few years ago sees this - please get in touch. That was a couple of computers ago and a virus took away from me almost all of my old GENIE data and I hope to restore some of it. If you are not that person but think you know who that may be, pass it on. Thanks.
MICHAEL!
THAT IS WONDERFUL NEWS! I hope they give his cell mate a physician's sample of Viagra.
My best to you and the missus,
Jay
Well, I guess it means HE was taking the tops off trees while engaging in witty badinage with some hard-drinking ghosts in evening wear...
Jon
I'm sorry to have roused Mr Ellison's wrath with a brief note in =Ansible= 177 (April 2002) about the irony of the fact that our old foes the Scientologists were involved in a legal precedent quoted in the recent decision as damaging to part of his case against AOL.
Mr Ellison is incorrect in implying that the =Ansible= paragraph is either headlined or concludes ELLISON LOSES AOL SUIT, a phrase which does not appear.
Mr Ellison is incorrect in stating that I "chose never to publicize all the positive decisions we've had in the last two years". The following appeared in the February 2002 =Ansible=.
"Harlan Ellison's campaign against net piracy of his work made progress last month via a legal settlement with RemarQ/Critical Path, which had continued to carry the newsgroup alt.binaries.e-book (where the pirated stories were posted) in defiance of Ellisonian complaints. [PL] His case against AOL continues." (The PL is a credit to =Publisher's Lunch= newsletter.)
Christopher Priest had nothing to do either directly or indirectly with the =Ansible= 177 story, which was based on a summary from the supposedly respected and reliable "BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 3/18/02", forwarded to me by a senior lecturer in law at a British university:
> COURT RULES ON ISP LIABILITY FOR COPYRIGHT
> INFRINGEMENT
> ARISING FROM USENET GROUP POSTINGS
> A California federal court has issued an interesting
> copyright ruling involving the liability of ISPs who host
> infringing content on usenet groups. The case involved the
> posting of Harlan Ellison novels on a usenet group hosted by
> AOL. AOL left the content online for two weeks before
> removing it. The judge ruled that AOL could not held liable
> for direct copyright infringement following Religious
> Technology Center v. Netcom. It then engages in an
> interesting discussion on whether AOL might be liable for
> contributory or vicarious copyright infringement by
> examining its knowledge of, contribution to, and ability to
> block, the infringement. Making regular reference to the
> Napster decision and the DMCA, the court concluded that it
> did not and thus dismissed the action. Case name is Ellison
> v. Robertson. Decision at
>
>
> Washington, DC 20037.
Charles Petit has since told me that this summary, although prepared by a savvy lawyer, is incorrect. When lawyers disagree on the precise meaning of the decision, what chance have mere laymen? I'm pleased to hear that the legal struggle can in fact continue -- I'm a professional writer too.
David Langford
Heather,
Why a feminist point of view if I might ask. Are you planning on entering the Moondance competition?
Don't you think feminism has done enough damage to our quest for slack?
Now we must open our own doors, pay for our meals and miss our soap operas due to somebody's brilliant notion that we should join the work force.
STOP THE MADNESS!
Cindy
Alia and Michael,
Here's hoping you're in California and this is strike three for the bastard.
Thank you for doing the brave thing and going after him. Who knows what hell you might save someone else from down the line.
Cindy in Texas
BARNEY!!!!!!!!!
That can't be right. Isn't a FLUFFER the same thing as a poot?
Cindy
p.s. I liked what you said about my nickname. I wish I could take credit for it but my daughter's high school friends all called me Cindiana Jones. I'm delighted you found it amusing.
hehehe...
So...
I get home from schlepping comic books for eight hours, and my lovely wife is talking with two police detectives in our living room. They're showing her pictures of a couple of guys they picked up, and sure enough, she identifies the bazoo who threw coffee in her face. They grin at each other and tell us that she's the fifth person to identify this scumbag, and the DA thinks that's just plenty fine enough to prosecute. With any luck, this schmuck will find himself in a cell with some 7-foot tall Neanderthal named Bubba who hasn't had any in fourteen years. Let's see if he likes the coffee in prison! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......*koff koff*
Sorry 'bout that, but we're both really jazzed by the news.
best to all,
Michael, with Alia nuhdging me to say "hi" for her...
P.S. Justin...........wear a cup, bwah!
Lolly Lolly get your adverbs here
I'm only a Bill
Schoolhouse Rocks!
Barney~ ::ROFLMAO:: Oh there's an image I need in my head just as I toddle off to bed.
L.
"He's a lumberjack and he's okay..."
a "topper" is like a fluffer, only Canadian.
- Barney
is a pretty cool dude.
She's come through the system, and learned a hell of a lot and I'm glad to see her still out there cowpunching. (I enjoyed "Panic Room." Foster as an action figure. I can DIG that!)
It amazes me that she's hung around as long as she has. But then, she's a bright woman--another anomaly in the film industry, it seems--and still attempting to play both sides of the fence/camera.
Hell, she hung out with Mel Gibson years ago. I would have imagined she's picked up some of his spunk, per the movie-making industry. (Mel's not just a pretty face either, yanno.) But she also (like he) knows how to play the game.
Go, Jodie, go. One charming smile. One beautiful dame.
Heather
CHUCK,
You know I luvs ya-- just givin' you a little shit.
:)
I thought what you said shows what a sweet guy you are. I wish there were more like you.
Cindy
I wonder what the function of a "topper" is and how Harlan got his mom to let him go work at a logging camp.
Maybe the same way my father got his mom to "let" him go off to New Orleans to play the piano in a brothel when he was 14. In his case there was no "allow" to it he ran off. The adventure got him a stint in a military academy after they got him out of a jail in Lake Charles.
Of course my father wouldn't take anything for the experience, he said he had a ball until he was faced with the imminent prospect of returning to Pachuta, Mississippi and his mother's wrath.
I wonder if things are so different now or if it's just me. I won't let my 14 year old son to go to a mall by himself.
Cindy
I'm looking for some books on the 'science' of storytelling/mythology from the feminist perspective. Could you offer any suggestions?
Now, I tend to approach feminist writings with a tad of trepidation. I've read some. Got some good impressions. Got some real BAD ones, too. I worry I'll get led down a garden path with some books where it becomes clear the woman has more of an ISSUE with men (i.e., she hates them) than a clear, potentially new viewpoint to offer. And I KNOW there are other viewpoints OUT there. Mine, for starters, will be one.
I read a few of Ursula Le Guin's comments on the matter and was pleased with HER take on it. She expressed a few insightful viewpoints on the feminist view as it relates to science fiction and fantasy and societal viewpoints, in general.
I've been looking at what kinds of stories I want to write. I realize I'll fall back on stuff I already know; genres and kinds of characters I've already seen portrayed and accepted--there's a lot of neat stuff to write about. I don't plan to limit myself.
But I also realize, there's something I need to do: portray woman in roles I can identify with. I think that's part of what went missing for me in my fiction reading a long time back. I've read that potentially there are more 'female' voices out there and that makes me glad. But I don't want to simply jump from one angry camp to another.
Any books you can suggest, David, would be appreciated.
Heather
Chuck wrote:
As I approached, I smiled and said, "Guess he wasn't in the mood."
She smiled and the little boy laughed. I think he just liked my facial expression.
So, I made a little kid laugh today. My day is complete.
Chuck
God DAMN Chuck,
You gotta get out more.
Cindy
BRIAN:
"The Oscars are _no big deal_."
Very true...but to everyone else they seem to mean the universe. Good grief, it'd be a wonderful award to receive under ANY circumstance...but in the end it's just a naked gold guy.
Jodie Foster's comment seems to me more as if it was just a jocular, off-the-cuff remark someone makes after being a little teeved off. Of course, you CAN'T make any remarks like THAT, and henceforth, it's been pasted in every media outlet available.
I still can't comprehend why Jodie turned down HANNIBAL. It was a real decent flick, I thought. Gary Oldman's make-up was FREAKY.
HUMILIATION: I pretty much concur with everything that's been set forth on the subject on the HE board. I'm still of the opinion that in comedy, EVERYBODY should suffer, not just one poor schmoe. No disrespect to Mr. Jones, but 'The Road Runner Show' was just plain demonic.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Watched this movie on Encore this past week because I had nothing better to do. It caught my attention about 15 minutes in so I can't say I have a full contextual understanding of the film, but BOY was that far better than I expected! Even given the dated effects and the somewhat uber-cheesy dialogue, I was astounded how imaginative and interesting this movie was.
I was expecting a ratty, dated and childish cash-in sequel, but it was quite entertaining and fun.
Just a capsule review for fellow fantasists.
JS
Sorry about the gaffes.
Just a brief one.
I was recovering from whatever gastrointesinal bug that has been going around, makeing last night a thrill and a joy. This afternoon I was feeling much better, and felt the need to go for a walk. The early part of rush hour was filling the streets, and I turned down turned left on a street to a quiet residential area. As I made my way around the neighborhood, I came upon a mother and her little kid, probably a year and a half old. Apparently, the little boy didn't know if he wanted to ride on her shoulders, or what.
She said, "You want to race?"
He said, "NO!" and started to cry. She hoisted him up on her shoulders and he quieted down a bit.
As I approached, I smiled and said, "Guess he wasn't in the mood."
She smiled and the little boy laughed. I think he just liked my facial expression.
So, I made a little kid laugh today. My day is complete.
Chuck
Brian-- Not asking for speculation re: Jodie Foster. I vaguely thought I recalled some concrete event or series of events that contributed to her negative feelings. Maybe not.
Bermanator
Re Jodie Foster: Maybe she wanted to impress John Hinckley?
But anyway. I don't think there's any need to speculate about Foster's "anger" with Hollywood. That's because what she said is what a lot of people who aren't involved with Hollywood would say. The Oscars are _no big deal_. After all, I'm not making any money off of whatever Best Picture is.
I just spent the last two hours leafletting the neighborhood to fight the local Historic District proposal. My feet HURT.
LW re: Oscar-- It strikes me that the Oscars are no more a game of bingo than, say, the Prom Queen elections at my school. A small group of people get to vote, 150 in my school, 5,000 or so on the Oscars. They pick who they like, who they've seen, who kisses up to them the most. Then that lucky person wins. "Bingo" seems to imply pure chance, whereas I think it's more like a popularity contest. Is Foster really being fair or accurate when she implies that there is no rhyme or reason behind who wins? Regardless what the actual meaning is, a popularity contest is more meaningful than random chance.
Anyone know why Jodie Foster has become so embittered about Hollywood?
Bermanator
All,
Pointed out to me by the wonderful Neil Gaiman blogger, a poem about copyright:
http://www.roundtower.com/Law_Of_Copyright/body_law_of_copyright.html
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph: Yeah, I just popped it back in to take a look at it. Come to think of it, I have trouble watching the monologue by Scorsese's character as well, so humiliation is obviously not the only on-screen construction that can cause me to get up and continue watching a movie while pretending to rummage in the fridge for a drink, periodically hiding my head in the fridge until things cool down on-screen.
A couple of local stations managed to show Wayne Wang's *Smoke* and *American Heart* with Jeff Bridges back to back in the early ayem last week. I'd seen *Smoke* before, but watched again because it's such a model of good acting and good writing. *American Heart* caused me to cycle back to the whole Academy Awards/recognition question -- if you haven't seen *American Heart*, try to, as Jeff Bridges gives a really uncommon performance as an ex-con, and Edward Furlong (of T2) gives aa surprisingly good, unaffected performance as the ex-con's son. The range of someone like Bridges, who can do Tucker, Lebowski and the lead in Heart, really astonishes me whenever I run across him again. I also flashed on the fact that, while watching Wonder Boys, I kept thinking 'gosh, this movie would be much better if Jeff Bridges were playing the Michael Douglas character.'
Cheers,
Jon
Jon,
That is a pan from Bickle to the empty hallway.
Regards,
Joseph
Little Washu et al: Hmmm...*Meet the Parents* was so manifestly unreal that I couldn't get too worked up about the travails of the Stiller character. As to DeNiro's acting -- well, he was doing one of his twinkly comedy bits which give me a headache anyway. I do find that I'm more likely to look away from straight scenes of humiliation in films than anything else. Scorsese's choice to have the camera move(1) away from Travis Bickle and stare down an empty hallway during Bickle's awful phone conversation with the Cybill Shepherd character in *Taxi Driver* approximates my viewing behaviour with certain movies.
Jon
(1) Yes, it's my first footnote. 'Move' and not 'track' or 'pan' because I can't remember whether the camera tracks or pans in the scene.
Found this on www.imdb.com...another sign that Hollywood is becoming a little too anal for it's own good...
Jodie Foster, who has won the best-actress Oscar twice (The Accused, Silence of the Lambs), has touched off an uproar in Hollywood after comparing the Oscar contest with a game of bingo. Interviewed on Friday by the Sydney Morning Herald in Australia, Foster said, "Winning the Oscar is no measure of performance. It's just bingo. You get five names that are thrown in a hat. One name is going to get pulled out and somebody goes, 'bingo!' You just wish it was your name." "I can't believe she said that," a Hollywood producer told the MSNBC website. "It's incredibly disrespectful to an institution that has been very good to her." Tom O'Neil, who operates the GoldDerby.com website, which handicaps showbiz awards, commented: "In Hollywood, there's something holy and sacred about the Academy Awards, and to speak against them is blasphemous." The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences declined to comment.
I guess now that the Academy Awards is to be worshipped as a divine entity, I think I'll go slit my wrists.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Justin~ Do they require you to use that same medieval torture device of a figure eight swiss seat they taught Bill? Or is it the self-tightening loop? (Yes, it seems that in the Tanner household last night, there was a great deal of speculation as to the nature of Justin's injuries and just how they might have occured, with of course, the ultimate goal of preventing future incidents).
The self-tightening loop swiss seat: Take a loop of preferably 2" flat strap, but I've done it with rope (just as a training exercise to prove that it could be done). The loop, with knot, should measure from the top of your head to mid-calf. Put the knot of the loop in the small of your back and slip your hands through from front to back (like a back pack), so you have the loop dangling behind you. With BOTH HANDS, reach through your legs, grab the bottom strap and pull it forward. Let the loops on your arms slip down over each hand and over the strap. This should result in two loops on either side of the now-conjoined loop around your middle. This double bend is what the 'biner goes through. You'll notice that if you do it with too much slack, the second you pull on it, it tightens. It has the added benefit of tightening around the upper thigh and seat area, well away from any vital areas.
From the reading I've done (including the Ranger Handbook), I've seen about two hundred different ways to tie a swiss seat, and this still is the easiest and most comfortable I've used (in my admittedly limited experience).
Hope this helps,
L.
Lynn: They won't let us do flat straps, or use civilian harnesses. They want everyone on the same uncomfortable page, apparently.
Helz: Harlan was kidding.
Today we were playing Ultimate Frisbee for P.T. (which sounds like screwing around, but it amounts to about one hour of wind sprints), and I ended up slamming into some other player and getting my ass knocked out cold. Sgt. Klein had to pry my eyes open and wake me up. Then Sgt. Trees comes up to check me out, and I tell 'im, "First my nuts...now this." Because I'm quick like that. Anyway, it's off to the doctor for me later on this afternoon. My body has seen better days.
Ya know what, Harlan? I gotta disagree with you on laughing about Justin's accident on the rappelling course.
There is humor in his story, just as there is in Barney's racquetball incident or yours at the logging camp so long ago (but still fresh in your memory). Some people may laugh at it out of cruelty or perversity or ignorance, but I think most who laugh are either sympathetic (having had their nuts cracked in the past) or thinking of some variation on the old "Laugh-In" Fickle Finger of Fate (as in "jeezus peevus that could've been ME!").
As you yourself mentioned in a reply to a question about some of your autobiographical stories, the humor is in the telling and the embellishment. The passage of time also helps -- a lot in this case. I can imagine a future where you, Barney and Justin are sitting at a bar swapping stories, and this topic comes up, and the three of you wind up on the floor, damn near pissing yourselves from laughing so hard.
So, speaking as another one who has endured blows to the "groinal area" in my past, I gotta say that as long as there was no permanent damage, the story -- as delivered by Justin -- is, in fact, funny. Sorry.
Harlan,
Brief note here--I just cauhgt up on some older messages are saw your posting about Ray Bradbury and the dedication. Congrats, sir, congrats! Well-deserved, I have no doubt. And thanks for letting us know yet another new Bradbury is en route. Three in the space of a year, including the new collection. Obviously, age hasn't diminished his considerable gifts.
--Alex
THANKYOUS FROM HARLAN:
Charlie. Thank you.
Mr. Finn. Thank you.
Justin: Geezus peezus, kid. No laughter HERE. I had a similar experience when I was fourteen or so, working as a "topper" in a logging camp in Matawatchan, Ontario. It frantically cosmically HURTS! And them as laughs deserve only one response: a boot-toe in the nards. HARD.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Thanks, rich. Now I'll be humming that song all damned day.
"What's your function?"
L.
Barney,
Agreed. And I would also agree with Little Washu in his assessment of "Meet the Parents". I did not find that movie particularly funny and when it went so over the top (the lawn on fire, etc.), the movie lost me. My wife, on the other hand, thought it was hilarious. And apparently the rest of the audience did as well.
Barney <dannelke01@enter.net>
allentown, - Monday, April 8 2002 8:34:14
"Ellisonian complaints"
As Bill Cosby used to say - Riiiigghhhtt. Those two words speak volumes. Ellisonian complaints, as opposed to reasonable requests to stop stealing ones property. Fuck that noise.
Two years ago, in an attempt to put together a comprehensive list of Ellison secondary material for Tim Richmond I had given myself the task of finding and listing all the Ellison references in magazines such as the Comics Journal, LOCUS, Ansible, Thrust, Fantasy Review, etc. I even went so far as to pay money for some Ansible back issues that were not on line - even though I knew (I KNEW!) the contents were just going to piss me off. My expectations were well founded. While not quite as mean-spirited as THRUST the coverage was always either straight-up sarcastic or took these bank shots. Sort of makes me wish I had spent that time re-shelving books or picking scabs but it's too late now.
- Barney
For the record, Ansible has provided previous coverage of the KICK effort. From two months ago:
>Harlan Ellison's campaign against net piracy of his work made progress last month via a legal settlement with RemarQ/Critical Path, which had continued to carry the newsgroup alt.binaries.e-book (where the pirated stories were posted) in defiance of Ellisonian complaints. [PL] His case against AOL continues.<
BARNEY: You pretty much nailed on the head all of my own issues with MEET THE PARENTS. It suffered from the exact same kind of 'embarrasment humour' you mentioned. The protaginist is subjected to all kinds of agonies and torment, until there's a certain point when you stop laughing and say, "Stop it. That's enough." Ben Stiller's character is a nice, fairly decent fellow who is predictabley treated as a doormat by everyone around him. I have never been able to watch Robert DeNiro again and recall his loathsome performance as Jack Byrnes from MTP. Jack Byrnes, to me, represents the most repellent kind of human being: never physcially harming you, yet ever-so-subtly stabbing glass shards straight into your heart. The rest of the Byrnes family was a nest of hornets, and you keep waiting for something truly horrible to happen to them all, but nothing does. I kept expecting (or maybe praying) Ben Stiller would turn into The Punisher and lay waste to the entire cast...including DeNiro's cat.
There's a certain point when 'sharp' comedy becomes just plain mean. SOMETHING ABOUT MARY, ME, MYSELF & IRENE, SCARY MOVIE, VAN WILDER...all seem to become what they're attempting to parody. It's no longer a matter of, "Look, we're making fun of retards! This is so politically incorrect and hilarious!" but, "Look at the retard, everybody! Isn't he stupid? Ha ha ha!"
To the Farrely Brothers and similar kin...GUYS, IT'S NOT FUNNY ANYMORE.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Nice item at Salon on _The Outer Limits_. http://www.salon.com/ent/masterpiece/2002/04/08/outer_limits/index.html
*** Rich *** "Death to Smoochy" is flawed in any number of ways. It staggers from plot point to plot point like a drunk looking for a place to piss and it's WAY over the top in the style of Pee Wee Herman or Ace Ventura but funny is not it's problem. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. It's that Fargo thing again. There is also a certain pleasure/pain factor in watching something like this. It's fun for me because it goes after the Barney the Dinosaur phenomena but that's not going to be nearly enough for some people. It's also hard to watch what I have come to think of "embarrassment humor", where you simultaneously feel really bad for the stuff that's happening to the main characters. "King of Comedy" is in this genre. I think it's brilliant but at the same time it makes me almost ill to watch it.
*** the H.L.M. thread ***Because I have not read any Mencken to speak of I was unaware of his anti-semitic leanings. I was sort of reacting to what they were saying about him and language. It seems he and Harlan have much the same approach. He also seemed to do a number of H.S. and College speaking gigs which had some fallout for at least one generation.
As far as being anti-Darwin, well, so was Thomas Carlyle, but I'm not going to throw out my "History of the French Revolution" because of it. On the other hand, given Carlyle's upbringing and the fact that he is a full generation before H.L.M. it's a little more understandable.
*** testicular fun *** I was playing raquetball a LOOOONG time ago and lost my grip on the racket. The wrist loop did its job by making sure I didn't toss the thing cross court and bean my friend. Instead it swung the racket in a short, severe arc, targeting my nutsack with the kind of force I thought was reserved for armor piercing tank shells. I looked at my friend for about two seconds and remember saying, "oh man, this is gonna really hurt", right before I collapsed and started screaming. My buddy thought this was the sort of funny normally encountered in Road Runner cartoons and fell out laughing. He was as much help as your friends were. My sympathies. 20 years and it seems like yesterday...
Well, that's enough fun for now...
The AOL story:
I think Charlie's answer does the trick. Boils the truth down to the legal essentials, and leaves it up to Ansible to do the decent. My response would have been more like "Don't you have anything BETTER to do?".
Little Washu, Frank, et. al. on the short films on MST3K:
My favorite instructional film is the one that preceeds RED ZONE CUBA, titled, SPEECH. It was done by Prof. E. C. Bueller, and it is a hoot. I nearly fall over every time Bueller does the "knee test" to check if the feet are the proper distance apart. I nearly give myself a coronary when Crow shouts "THAT'S IT BABY! SHAKE THAT MONEYMAKER! WOOOHOOOO!!!"
Chuck
Two words, Justin. FLAT STRAP. And frozen peas.
In sympathy,
L.
Actually, Brian, the OTHER Alex was the one with the revenge fixation thing.
... well, THAT came out wrong, huh ?
It's really hard to follow a post that begins with "I?m standing over a 90 foot cliff with a piece of rope tied into a swiss seat around my person."
Especially when the thing weighing on my mind was a small writing dispute I had this evening re our neighborhood's Historic District proposal.
To Alex Berman, re heroes with revenge motivation. I remember reading ajn interview with Donald E. Westlake, where he discussed a series of novels he did under a pseudonym about a detective, named Mitch Tobin, with a bad past. Tobin coped with his past by building a brick wall in his back yard. Westlake said that he couldn't do more than a handful of Mitch Tobin books because, frankly, eventually the guy's got to get out of his rut.
To Alex Krislov, re William jennings Bryan. In his collection _Bully for Brontosaurus_, Stephen Jay Gould did a wonderful piece about Bryan's opposition to evolution. He wondered, why did Bryan-- a man generally on the progressive side of things-- become an opponent of Darwin? The answer, Gould finds, was that many textbooks that promoted evolution did so in a manner that also promoted things like eugenics and social Darwinism as a moral lesson. Bryan's reaction, to attack darwin, was misplaced-- he should have attacked the idiots who were using darwin to promote reactionary politics.
In this essay, Gould mentions that he'd once heard a wax cylinder recording of Bryan's voice. You can, too: it's been digitized at http://www.tinfoil.com/cm-9804.htm. He doesn't sound a BIT like Frederic March.
So I’m standing over a 90 foot cliff with a piece of rope tied into a swiss seat around my person. I’ve rappelled several times before, twice off of this very cliff. And I’ve tied a swiss seat before, without incident. This one feels fine. Maj. Benitez double checked it for me and said it was fine. Sgt. Trees did the same, and has just hooked the rappel rope into my carabiner. When he gives me the signal, I lean back over the edge of the cliff. I feel calm and happy. It is beautiful up here, and by now this sort of thing has become such old hat that my heart is beating no faster than usual. I’m happy. I’m in the spotlight, and I’m positive I can make it to the bottom in one bounce. I lean back completely into my L shape, allowing the swiss seat to carry my full weight.
There is a horrid, stomach-churing, gawdawful crunching sound! Imagine Jaws, from MOONRAKER, biting into a ham and granite sandwich. And…heavens, how does one put this delicately?
Let me see now…
I DAMN NEAR LOST A BALL, in the parlance of the times. Sgt. Trees can tell that I’m in difficulty, and allows me to pull myself back up onto level ground. Then Sgt. Sensitivity gets on his radio and transmits to my belay person, “Hold up. We’ve got a nut crunch!”
This information is also, incidentally, broadcast over all battalion radios, for all the officers and my fellow cadets to hear. The belay person radios back, “Heh heh. Roger.”
I’m back on level ground now, and think that I ought to be feeling better. But I’m very surprised, and in such pain that I can’t seem to help but lean over and scream, “OH MY GOD!”
Sgt. Trees: “Stand by. We’ve got an ‘OH MY GOD’ nut crunch! Hee hee.”
The entire battalion, standing at the bottom of the canyon, erupts into paroxysms of laughter. Their yuks traverse the width and breadth of the Huachuca mountains, frightening the woodland critters and severely irritating ME, as I roll around on the ground near the cliff face and scream, “MY FUCKIN’ BALLS!”
That’s a true story. This seems to highly amuse everyone who hears about it, so I figured I’d spread the joy. My personal suffering should entertain others whenever possible, I’ve always felt. I should be on Japanese television, no?
Get back to your lives and stop reading this filth of mine.
J
p.s. Good job Charlie. I was gonna write to them, but why bother when you’ve got a pro like Charlie around to clear things up? Somehow I think that Harlan can do without my particular brand of wiseacre crudity to help resolve these matters. He might as well ask a foul-mouthed twelve year old to watch a bunch of Lee Marvin movies and then compose a letter in defense of his cause. Much as I’d like to jump in, I’ll sit this one out, with the good of the struggle in mind. None of you need to thank me. Restraint is my middle name. Justin Restraint “One Ball” Sluyter they call me.
J
Harlan & Susan: Hope your trip home was uneventful and thank you again for an unparalleled experience. I've made some dear, dear friends in Loren & Deborah, a gift which can never be repaid. (My signed copy of the hardbound collector's edition of TROUBLEMAKERS, as well as signed copies of THE MASTER EXECUTIONER, SINISTER HEIGHTS, & DEATH IS A CABARET are icing on a glutton's cake.)
Re: David Langford, and Ansible. The link is here if you want to read what he's written, but I think Charlie's letter was sufficient to clarify matters:
http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible/a177.html
As for the nice little old lady, I jotted down an "incident" report and made her sign it before she left. State Farm seemed tickled pink by that fact.
Fuel cells failing,
L.
Harlan,
Done. Politely, but firmly.
Regards,
Joseph
should read..."far from over"
Harlan: I went to the Ansible site and found their blurb about the case. I sent the following email to the editor. Hope it clarifies the situation for them.
Hello:
I have been following Mr. Harlan Ellison's lawsuit since its inception and have written two articles about the case in the last year in a monthly legal journal. I am an attorney in St. Petersburg, FL, USA, and the editor of the "Paraclete" where the articles have appeared. I have spoken previously to Mr. Ellison and two of his attorneys in preparation of those articles. To clarify the blurb in the "Ansible" e-magazine, Mr. Ellison's case has neither failed nor should it be compared to the Scientologist's case. The Judge made a finding that may or may not be adverse to Mr. Ellison's case (this has yet to be determined); and, if adverse, Mr. Ellison has the right to appeal said decision. Thus, this case is far over and far from being lost. Hope this clarifies the matter for you,
I decided to delurk momentarily to tell all you friendly Webderlanders that there's a special science fiction edition of the Washington Post Bookworld. One of the features has to do with science fiction writers and their favorite or most important books. Harlan comes across pretty well in that two of the writers cite Harlan affiliated works. Ellen Datlow sings the praises of Dangerous Visions and Poppy Z. Brite has some nice things to say about Love Ain't Nothing But Sex Misspelled. Those links are here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/style/books/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62470-2002Apr4.html
I imagine people here might be interested in those stories.
And no I won't say anything about the lawsuit this time. Let me thank Harlan for asking people to stop piling on. Not that I mind. I'm 6 5 and I weigh 280. I suppose I can take it. But thanks anyway.
Philip Shropshire
www.threerivertechreview.com
www.majic12.com
PS: I found those links at Locus Online by the way, where there's a visible Janet Asimov correction in the upper right corner. Keep in mind that Locus Online is actually run by a different guy. Charles Brown has little to do with it...
A SMALL FAVOR, IF YOU HAVE A MOMENT:
Apparently the English fan David Langford, who publishes a fanzine called Ansible, has chosen either to misunderstand, or intentionally misinterpret, the recent preliminary finding by Judge Cooper in my lawsuit against AOL. He is passing along--on his electronic site--this misinformation with the conclusion ELLISON LOSES AOL SUIT. Since he chose never to publicize all the positive decisions we've had in the last two years, this strikes me as yet another instance of Mr. Langford's penchant for demonstrating his friendship with the English writer Christopher Priest (not the U.S. comic book writer) by publishing distorted info about my doings. As those of you know who have even a scintilla of understanding of the legal process, I have by no means "lost the case." We have had an adverse finding--which hasn't even been entered yet--and we haven't announced whether or not we'll be appealing it; but the WAR is FAR FROM OVER. We're not even sure this "adverse" finding isn't considerably to our benefit. (Charlie Petit, you can jump in here anywhere.)
And so: the small favor. Would some one or another of you find your e.way onto that ANSIBLE site, whatever and wherever it is, and put a chokehold on their crowing, lest they have to eat those rottten eggs poached in their own perfidy.
Thank you for the effort.
Susan and I are back from Fresno. And how was YOUR weekend, Belinda?
Yr. pal, Harlan.
Bag O' Scott,
The wee one is doing fine. And she had some wicked-ass vomiting this morning, like something out of the "Exorcist", but she's doing fine at the moment.
And, I must admit, fatherhood apparently agrees with me. I don't know if it's some desire to be a better father than my father was or if I'm too stupid to care to realize how hard this actually is, but I kinda like this father-thing. All in all I'm ready for another one, but the wife, who has to go through the actual pain and delivery as she reminds me, is a bit more pragmatic and sensible and suggests we give it some time.
Barney,
There was a reason the audience for "Death to Smoochy" wasn't into the movie: It wasn't funny. Oh, sure it had its moments, but as a whole it just wasn't funny. I'm telling you. By the way, I have a tenuous connection to the movie. I have the ashes of what used to be Catherine Keener's cat safely stored in a little tin box on my bookshelf. Her name was Daisy and she was a mean cat, but we loved her. Not so long story, but I won't go into it here.
Here's hoping my baby doesn't have a Mattherhorn head.
I see your point, Alex. Actually, the first two BATMAN films suffered from the same dilemma. Making the Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents was a nice way to tighten the drama. But Batman, of course, has his revenge and slays the 'harlequin of hate'. (I LOVE that nickname). So...now what?
From then on, Batman seemed to be just going through the motions both in BATMAN RETURNS and the Schumacher vehicles afterwards. Sure, there was some good character drama set up between Bruce and Selina Kyle, but the Penguin was just kind of...there. As was Two-Face, as was Poison Ivy, as was Bane, as was...
Ultimately, Batman suffered the same fate as Blade and lost his purpose.
I've always found it curious that a major motion picture based on Marv Wolfman's character was even made, as he seemed to be one of the more obscure superheroes. I had never in my entire life even heard of 'Tomb of Dracula' until some thorough searching on the web found some scant morsels.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
LW, funny you should mention Blade again. Whilst in L.A. last week, my wife and I got together with Marv Wolfman. He told me that he was a lot less impressed with the second film than the first (and he understood why I won't go to the film, of course), and we talked more generally about the problems of characterization in comic-book adaptations in film, too. It sounds like they've lost what made Blade a great character.
What Marv mentioned was that revenge is not a great motivation for a character. The trouble with building a character around revenge is that eventually they _have_ their revenge, and this does not bode well for sequels.
The original Blade was motivated by more than a lust for revenge--that masked a deeper problem, the loss that he wanted the revenge _for._ Take that away, and all you've got is a killing machine with slick patois.
--Alex
Come to think of it, the theme of 'electronic imprisonment' in LAUGH TRACK can be also spotted in DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND.
(QUICKIE SPOILER WARNING)
Remember when Trent discovers that all the people of the world have been converted into energy and placed directly into a single wire? There you have it...people, or 'souls' made akin to electricity.
Finally got around to reading Harlan's LAUGH TRACK for the first time. Great, juicy stuff - I especially loved the 'simularity matrix' idea as well as the VERY disturbing notion that there are actually ghosts (or something akin to ghosts) in an ordinary laugh track. I never knew those comedy sitcoms could be so TERRIFYING...
The climax pretty much speaks for itself. There's a breaking point for everyone, even laugh tracks.
Switching gears...it's been a while since I mentioned BLADE II again. As more time has passed, I've dwelled on that movie a great deal. True, it's not exactly a movie to be dwelled upon, but nevertheless what caught my attention was the complaint someone on the board posted (I can't remember who it was...I'm sorry) that the character of Blade himself wasn't very engaging. And in retrospect...I have to agree. You can't hurt him, you can't defeat him, you can't even make him bat an eyelid. Not that you could tell, what with those shades he wears all the time, but anyway...
Blade is invincible. He's a demi-god. He's SO experienced at kicking butt it's ridiuclous and doesn't pave much way for genuine conflict. Personally, I've always enjoyed it whenever a hero slips up on a banana peel and lands on his face. (Not literally, but it would be funny to see once in a while). It's merely a decent message that, "HEY! This guy screws up! He makes mistakes! He's human!"
That's precisely why I adore the Stan Lee era of SPIDER-MAN. Peter Parker humiliated himself, slipped up on more than one occasion, and was generally a typical angst-ridden teenager. Stan Lee was really on to something by making superheroes more 'human' back then, and it's too bad the new generation doesn't take more pointers from those days.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Rick,
Of course, it helps that you're ahead of me by the slimmest of margins in the standings, now doesn't it?
Regards,
Joseph
HEATHER - Writers offer editing services to make a buck. Writing doesn't always pay that well, and full-time writers are a rare breed. Editing services, teaching and doing workshops, creative work for magazines and ad agencies - these are all ways they can help make ends meet.
BARNEY - You should know by now you've achieved Favored Nation trading status with me and are allowed to get cute once in a while.
MY FANTASY BASEBALL OPPONENTS - I joined this more to support a Webderland League than out of a love of fantasy sports, but it's getting pretty fun! And Roger Clemens is BACK! BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Now I just have to hope La Russa doesn't mess with my Cards-heavy team...
Heather,
I believe that writers offer editing services because there is a terrible need for it.
For the same reason that the new mom can't see that her baby has the Matterhorn for a head. It will take several months and the indisputable testimony of older photos before that mother will see that the reason people were stopping in their tracks to gape at her cherub had nothing to do with her arresting beauty.
:)
Cindy
Uh oh, possible tornado threatens... I have to unplug now.
Heather,
He was elected because the former Sheriff made some errors.
That's a euphemism-- "errors". He got involved with a drug task force run by a bunch of thugs with badges. They would go in on a tip alone and break a family's house up. When the "search" was over, they would always leave the victims a trashed house and smashed belongings, never mind that they didn't find any drugs in 5 out of 6 cases. This was their GOOD behavior.
The leader of the task force raped a local young woman who had a less than pristine reputation. Afterward he informed her that if she told anyone she would be found " in pieces in dumpsters all over Austin." This came out in a county commissioner's meeting.
The other error made by the (married) Sheriff was to grab his secretary (who was also married and utterly off guard) and kiss her passionately on the mouth one night after a successful drug bust. Her father-in-law was the Chief of Police (my husband's boss).
One of my favorite quotes of all time came from that episode. The Sheriff, attempting some damage control came to our house to discuss what had happened with my husband, Quinn. They sat in his pickup, parked in the driveway for about an hour or so.
Quinn came back in. There was a big discrepancy in the Sheriff's account of what happened and the secretary's account.
I said," What would you do if the Sheriff did that to ME?" (That Sheriff stands about 6 foot four and weighs around 240.. none of it blubber).
Quinn said," Well, I guess that big sonofabitch would just have to whip my ass."
Sooo that's why we have the thing we have now.. it's sort of a question of which would you rather have in your home, a rattlesnake that eats mice or a million mice that eat everything else. One is clearly dangerous, the other disgusting and equally as capable of killing you, but in an entirely different manner.
Cindy
yeah, Mencken had his flaws. Mencken's flaws as a thinker rival his good points in number. But the guy was a helluva writer. You have to remember the times, and consider him in context. He was often more interested in polemicism than in truth. Look, for example, as "In Memoriam WJB." If we take that piece at face value, we have to assume that Mencken, almost alone of all Americans, imagined William Jennings Bryan to be insincere. It's hard to imagine any perception more addlepated. Bryan, if all the histories and biographers have even the slightest value, was the most sincere, most honest of American politicians.
Of course, he was also dead wrong on evolution. And when you read Mencken's stunning, acid-drenched attack, you have to remember that Mencken was more interested in destroying Bryanism than he ever was in Bryan the man. And--mark this--it _worked._ To this day, Mencken's protrayal of Bryan as a hypocrite and buffoon is far better known than the real Bryan, sincere, progressive on almost all issues (yes, folks, he was a liberal), but horribly wrong on some.
So read Mencken, but remember--he's sometimes looking for an effect, and it might not be in the service of truth.
For an interesting look at mental hygeine films, bug your local PBS station to get a copy of "Those Films You Saw In School," a delightful half hour on the subject that was done as part of Chicago Stories on WTTW. Aired originally last August. Here's the web page for it, with some RealPlayer clips:
http://www.networkchicago.com/chicagostories/thosefilms.htm
Regards,
Joseph
BARNEY: Mencken was indeed a genius, but often falls into an antiSemitism that just annoys the hell out of me. Twain, for his part, struck off many of the prevailing opinions about people of his time as best he could--and wrote what he saw.
Frank, I must commend you! You have posted a few notes today, and not a single mention of Ch.....you know who!
You are a mensch! Congrats!
-TODD
Why do writers offer editing services?
I was talking about the overkill appropriate to the times, Brian. These films were often used as propaganda to make young white kids obediant and conform to the values of the times. In that, Stalinism is a fitting rejoiner. Remember, the 50's were rampant in annointed distrust of dissent of the common morality. This was my point. And Stalin himself was not that far from the leaders of that time. Both Truman and Churchill had high praise for Stalin as a person; they thought he was just peachy.
okay - I'm only checking in periodically these days so if any or all of this was said in the last two weeks I missed it.
*** Movies *** "DEATH TO SMOOCHY" Out of boredom I hit the local bi-octoplex and "Panic Room" was sold out. That actually suited me because I was pretty lukewarm on it anyways. Cinema showtime roulette chose "Death to Smoochy" as my fallback. Ohmygawd. Harlan - next time you talk to Robin Williams please tell him thank you. The crowd was thin and nobody was laughing whan they were supposed to but f*ck 'em. I haven't felt like I was in the presence of truely deranged weirdness since Beetlejuice and if the audience had been into it more [I think we were mostly spillovers from sellouts] I would have been laughing like the first time I saw "Young Frankenstein". To benchmark that remark Young Frankenstein really did almost make me lose bladder control. NEVER have I so anticipated a future DVD release. The outtakes and ad-libs really should be priceless. Norton is great but Robin Williams is PERFECT. The dialog is some of the meanest Hollywoodspeak I have ever heard outside a novel by Elmore Leonard or Donald Westlake. Some of it may be cliche by West Coast standards but out here in the hinterlands it worked just fine. Also the best use of midgets since "Under the Rainbow". Go see it. - Ummm, don't take the kids. If the Robin Williams potty-mouth stuff doesn't make their widdle ears bleed the JFK ice-capade sequence will give 'em the whim whams. "Back and to the left", indeed.
*** Cindy *** By the way, I think IAMCINDIANAJONES is funny everytime I see it.
Cops in Allentown, PA. used to be all racists and Christers with some crossbreeding but that got markedly better around 10 years ago when a new generation of cops who grew up watching Kent State and the indiscriminate fire-hosing of Joe and Jane citizen on the tube took on the job. Now, things have backslid a wee bit here, BUT [suprise!] it's all about money. If you want to be a cop in Allentown it means you will make less than every cop around you for about a 100 miles and your pension plan will suck eggs. NYC [which is about 65 miles away] has about 2-3 times as many cops per 1,000 citizens as we do. So - if you were a criminal, where would you rather boost a car or sell drugs? The big apple or in a town that, if it isn't careful will become the Newark of Pennsylvania? Harrisburg currently has that distinction in case you were wondering. Assistant Crack Whore isn't just a SNL joke anymore.
*** Harlan *** If this is Harlan jukebox day and you're taking requests I would love to see you say something about H.L. Mencken. When I get done with Twain, which may be never, I'm going to get caught up on him instead of the Russians I was planning on reading next. Just saw part of a C-SPAN documentary about him and the more they spoke of him the more I figured him to be a big influence. Some caller was trying to compare him to Baker only with "so much more acid - the sort of guy who could take someone apart with a few words" and couldn't think of a better example. I almost pulled a tendon raising my hand and going 'ooh, ooh! I know one!", but the idiots on the TV refused to acknowledge me. Bastards.
OK - it's finally warming up a bit - I'm gonna go play in the yard. Take care folks.
- Barney
[who is sorely tempted to close with "end space - the final frontier and close with a football field of blankspace, but understands it's safer to dis Newark than to piss off Mr. Wyatt.]
Re hygeine films and Stalinism. There's a wonderful book available called _Mental Hygeine_, and it's a book about all of those high-school education films we'd enjoyed and ridiculed way back when. Also, several of these films are available for download at http://www.archive.org/movies/
As for the charge of Stalinism-- Frank, aren't you indulging in some really silly rhetorical overkill? Every culture's had its efforts to promote its Moral Values-- and the moral values of thirty or forty years ago always look pretty silly. And much of the amusement value derives from seeing people in outdated clothing and hairstyles-- which is a little snobby, frankly.
But this come back to the comments I'd posted earlier, from Hughes, about the state of political art today. Thirty years from now, our children will look at the art of Keith Haring or Barbara Kruger, and giggle over the self-righteousness, the Obvious Moral Lessons, and the silly clothing and hair. After all, the forthright liberalism of Norman Lear's sitcoms hasn't dated well. And look at the Fabian Socialists-- progressive lefties who bought into _eugenics_, for Crisesakes. (Such is the dichotomy between liberal moralists and conservative moralists. Liberal moralists try new ideas, and run the risk that the ideas will be discredited; conservatives promote old ideas regardless of whether they were good ideas or not, and hope for the day when the worst ideas have the rule of law.)
Then there's the MST3K short about personal heigine. Tell me the 50's weren't about Stalinism!! Yikes.
Favourite MST3K:
I'd have to say THE AMAZING COLOSSAL MAN. It was my first, and therefore is closest to my heart. Coming up as a near second is POD PEOPLE. The MST3K folks really cut loose on that one:
"Why do people always decide to go through the Gate of Hell?"
"Because it's covered in SCHMUCKER'S raspberry jam!"
(The impact of the gag is lost in written format...it just has to be heard.)
BRIAN: I'd have to say that Mystery Science Theater works best with those so-horrific-it's-hilarious 1950's/60's 'White America' shorts. I recall seeing CATCHING TROUBLE, and having been so accustomed to a kneejerk politically-correct culture, I literally cried out "oh my GOD!!!" on many occasions while watching that short. My heart almost exploded from my berserk laughter.
And that's it from me on MST3K.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I have stopped thinking about, Dennis Miller Live: Dennis has bloody turned into some raving right wing nutjob. You would think he would be ready to nuke the whole middle east. Dennis used to be more liberal at one time. This war has jumbled the political puzzle into a scrap heap. A shame all my hero's are turning tail and running in the wrong direction.
On the music arguement: I can understand why a musician nowadays would sell out, since contracts in the music buisiness are some of the most unfair in all the arts. I mean, a fucking 12 percent royalty per cd if you're lucky! When the Dixie Chicks sell about 14 million albums and have hardly anything in the bank to show for it, tell me that aint sick? Writers have it a lot better, since they own their copyrights.
But these are multi-millionaire musicians who sell these songs. Al Hendrix aint hurtin at all. Jimi's back catalogue sells very well, and recieves a healthy royalty every year. There is no excuse for Al to sell the songs to scummy corporations who don't respect the art.
Clapton is just a sell out anyway. The guy hasn't been relevent for years. His new album proves that point--bluntly.
------------------------------
Brian, you just reminded me of the classic MST3K short, Catching Trouble: The politically incorrect nature of that thing was what made it so damn funny. Nowadays the guy who was abusing those animals would of been put up on charges. Shows you the moral strangness inherent in the 50's. Made you wanna join PETA..
-----------------------------
Harlan, when did you first meet Robin Williams? I'm curious about your friendship. Not to be a star fucker; I just see you two guys as kind of a strange team. What do you two talk about? Does he crack jokes in person like on Telly? What is his take on your angry side? He seems to be a pretty nice guy. Not that you're not Harlan, but you can be a firestorm. Wink.
I do miss MST3K and I think the reruns on SF are getting a little stale. The finest episode, to me, of the SFC seasons is THE SHE CREATURE with its oily Carlo Lombardi, wooden Lance Fuller as Ted, Olaf the Butler, and of course Carlo's Assistant Andrea whose bullet bras must have earned their own per diem.
After that, though, it seemed like the crew was trying too hard to play up a Hitchhiker's Guide to Bobo's Pratfalls angle for skits. It started to suffer from repeated jokes, telegraphed punchlines and, eventually, self-parody. I'm glad they put it to bed before it got less than good.
LW -
I quite agree. I find FARSCAPE to be quite intelligent and entertaining, the best show on a network that, quite frankly, has to rely a lot on really bad "direct-to-vid" movies.
Remember not too long ago their prime time line-up was a rotation of "Battlestar Exlaxia" and "Gil Gerard's Package in the 25th Century"? They've come a long way.
Lemme register some more praise for Mystery Science Theater. Even its worst shows had at least one bullet-hit of a laugh, and the best shows were some of the funniest two-hour chunks I've ever spent. I used to take special pleasure in showing it to people who'd never heard of it before; the short film "Catching Trouble" was one of the best shorts to use for this purpose.
I have a storage tub full of about five years of the show on videotape-- man, I'd love to get them all on DVD.
Rick, I believe you are correct in your point. (I got it from the outset.)
Now, new subject. Keeping that thinking in mind--here's the scary part--could a person who wants to keep a gun use the same argument?
I ONLY ask this as, I just left YOUR post and hit on an archive Ellison post where he was talking about guns.
I'm asking you this because I want to be able to ANSWER the mook who gives me this argument. (I own a gun because I'm just being PREPARED.)
H
Cindy, how did this guy get elected? Are you suggesting there were no other options? As in, no one ELSE was interested in the job?
I can be cool and calculating as it's not my backyard. I understand you must be pissed. But this sounds a little odd. The story sounds like the previous sheriff was the only one with any gumption and people let him handle the situations. But when the sheriff changed, the participants of the town didn't lift a finger to comment(?)
Sounds damn strange. But then, most real life is pretty strange.
Heather, High Noon in Our Town.
Konnichi wa, folks!
In an official press release, the Sci-Fi channel is developing the 4th and 5th seasons of FARSCAPE. Let me be honest and say I'm pleased to pieces with this news. FARSCAPE is one of the few science fiction shows on television (yes, I use the words 'science fiction' for FARSCAPE instead of 'sci-fi') that actually lives up to it's reputation. Far witter and more poignant than it's obnoxious wannabe competitors, it has a compelling storyline as well as a kooky atmosphere and truly bizarre and -dare I say it- 'alien' characters. It reminds me to a degree of DOCTOR WHO. (Harlan, DW IS the greatest science-fiction series of all time, bar none - I'm ready and willing to kick some ass right alongside you.)
Okay, maybe Quatermass deserves a lot of respect too, but still...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Damn...really have to spellcheck those Saturday night posts. Anyway, a FACTUAL error (versus the grammatical and spelling goofs) in the post gives Coleman Francis credit for "Sidehackers" (aka "Five the Hard Way") which, of course, was the work of Director Gus Trikonis and writers Larry Billman and Tony Huston. (Thank you IMDB)
Lurk:
You are so right.
For 15 years my husband was a cop in this town. We believed that the cops were there to serve and protect, and told our high school age kids to always cooperate with the police. If they were out at a beer party that was busted they were to not run for the brush but stay put and take responsibility for their behavior. If they didn't want to deal with an MIP then we suggested they avoid the beer parties.
This worked well until the local Sheriff accumulated enough baggage over his 20 years in office to be defeated by a grocery sacker. I am being literal-- he sacked groceries at a neighboring town's HEB. The only type of investigation he is qualified to conduct is that which relates to the question, Paper or plastic?
Once he was behind the desk he proceeded to mangle the entire law enforcement machine in our area. That's RIGHT! All five officers.
One of the most memorable moments was when he appointed an 18 year old waitress as Jail Administrator. She was hiring 911 operators and one day she announced she planned to hire a certain young man for the position. My husband said, " You can't hire him for a 911 dispatcher, the boy is borderline mentally retarded."
The girl said, "Way are an ayqual oportunitay emplawyer."
She hired him. The boy being brighter than the jail administrator knew after only one night that he was out of his depth and quit.
From there things got worse.
The Sheriff had to go to tremendous lengths to recruit new officers, as his main prerequisite was that all new officers be more stupid and less experienced than he was.
All of the cops who had been here for years quit.. my husband included. The Sheriff once told them in regard to law enforcent to " Go after the Mexcuns and white trash and leave the locals and the hunters alone".
>
There was a murder in this town about six months ago.. a friend of mine. The district attorney sent his chief investigator over to help solve the crime. The D.A. told me later that the Sheriff told his investigator, " We don't need no help."
When asked if they have any leads or how the case is progressing our sheriff's department's standard answer is, " We're still waitin' fer the DNA".
For six months?
I might feel less apt to question it if I had any faith that the Sheriff could even SPELL DNA.
Bottom line... if we have idiots like this here--you can bank on them turning up ANYWHERE.
Now we teach our kids to (as they say in these parts)stay shut mouthed. We tell them not to talk to the cops at all except to ask for their parents and an attorney.
I certainly have a new way of looking at cases presented to the public by the media. Just because the cops say it doesn't mean it's so.
But O.J. did it.
Cindy
Little Washu, Bag O'Scott, Jay:
Yeah, I've been an MST3K fan since 1990. I stumbled across the show, late at night. I ran across a cheesy movie, GIANT GILA MONSTER, I think, and then I noticed the little shadow figures at the bottom of the screen. I was hooked. I don't think Francis did SIDEHACKERS, but one movie he did was BEAST OF YUCCA FLAT. It starred ex-wrestler and former tow truck Tor Johnson in the title role. Francis narrated the movie with disjointed sentences like; "Flag on the moon". And? Well?
Hey, at least Tor got plenty of exposure for his future career as the model of the best-selling halloween mask in the last thirty or forty years.
And now to something on a different thread:
Here's my accident story. In the early nineties, I was driving home from dropping off a friend after taking in a movie. This was a rather lonely stretch of street, not a lot of traffic. A dog darted out in front of me, and instinctively, only knowing SOMETHING had dashed out in front of my car, I slammed on the brakes. I bumped the dog, knocking him to the street. He got his feet under him and just as he took off, There was the screech of tires behind me, and I was hit from behind by something BIG. I was in an '82 Honda Civic, and I was rear-ended by a full-sized Chevy Blazer. The other driver pulled around and stopped in front of me.
We confirmed we were both okay, and the other guy started to look nervous. I told him we should find a pay phone and call the police. As I walked to a nearby car wash to see if one was there, He had run to his Blazer and was taking off. Just then a police car pulled up. Someone in the nearby apartment complex had called the police. I ran over, told him about the accident and the flight of the Blazer. He went after him, and a few minutes later, another patrol car pulled up and this officer took my statement. Later, the first patrol car pulled up with the other driver in the back. I confirmed he was the one who hit and run.
He blew it BIG time. Not only had he left the scene, but he had no insurance, and was Driving Under the Infulence. My insurance was the junk car cheapo policy, so I got not one dime from them, but they suggested I file for resitution with the court. They forced him to send me so much per month while he did the classes, AA meetings and public service work. I used what he mailed me to eventually put a down payment on a new car.
No situation is so bad that you can't make it three times worse by doing something foolish. I still think about the other driver, and wonder how he's doing. Did he clean up his act? Go downhill?
I still get a little nervous when driving that stretch of street at night.
Chuck
Mike Nelson's Lyrics for NIGHT TRAIN:
Drink Night Train, go to the basketball game, throw up under the bleachers, puke out your brains, Night Train, to the eeennnnd....
To P.A. Berman, re musicians who sell the rights to their music. I dunno, I figure the music is theirs to sell off. If I liked the music, fine, but I'm not living in their skin-- so they may have good reasons to need some extra money.
But their reasons for selling their music may not be any more important than the reasons they wrote it in the first place. The classic example is the line "Hope I die before I get old." I don't know how sincere Townshend was when he wrote it, but the guy's hitting sixty around now; I wouldn't ask him to live up to words he wrote as a very young adult.
Correction for Bag-o-Scott. Daltrey should be making some money off od the ads which use the Who's music. Townsend gets royalties as the composer, so if they recorded a different version of his music, he'd be the onyl beneiciary. But when the actual _recording_'s used, it's a different matter. It'd depend on the Who's internal agreement re royalties and the contracts they signed. Chances are, Daltrey and Entwhistle and maybe even Kim Moon get royalties.
Heather,
May I suggest that you read "Sandman" in order? It really is a sprawling saga, later parts of which will make little sense (or be less delicious) if you haven't read the earlier parts. Start with "Preludes and Nocturnes" and work your way through. You bastard.*
Regards,
Joseph
* For having the joy of reading "Sandman" for the 1st time. Lucky lucky lucky.
Forrester:
I have no idea whether _Jack of Swords_ is a renamed edition of _Brazen Bull_. It's just a title that showed up in the local library's copy of _The Angel and the Cuckoo_. (I don't have the page in front of me to know whether _Brazen Bull_ was also listed, but I'll bet not.) I know a number of books were renamed when they crossed the Atlantic -- the Gale Research publications note a couple of these -- but I saw no reference to this. Maybe it'll turn out to be a smaller correction than I thought.
Heather:
Just finished Gaiman's _Neverwhere_ this week. (Actually read it in a day and a half between Wednesday night and Friday morning.) Terrific novel. Not as ambitious and sprawling as _American Gods_, but nearly as good.
Re: Red Zone Cuba
"All right, men, tonight we shove off..."
"YOU SHOVE OFF!!!"
LW
Who owns Eric Clapton's catalogue? How does one find out such information?
Bermanator
Two pains in the neck... (drum skiffle)
First, any Coleman Francis flick (like "Sidehackers" and I think "Skydivers") is an invitation to acid reflux. Red Zone could have been marketed as "The Three Stooges in their first dramatic feature" Thank God for MST3K for putting it into perfect historical context for me. It's colorful characters (including that "Cherokee Jack" and a badly-bearded Castro).
Guess I'm gonna have to watch that one again tonight.
Sing it with me, mow! "Niiiiiiiiiiight traiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin to mundo fiiiiiiiiiiineayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..... niiiiight traiinnnnnn to de eehhhhhhhhhhhnd....runnin' hard and runnin' fast...away to the future and away from the past...taking the gamble that cannot last....night traiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn to de ennnnnnnd."
Second, with any legal altercation, I've learned to speak little, politely, nod a lot, smile and allow the force of nature that are lawyers and/or insurance companies deal with the details. Seems like right, wrong, moral, twisted, etc...it's who's got the biggest, bestest lawdog. Or, as the wise Chosen One "Ash" once said, "Good...Bad...I'm the one with the gun."
Taking responsibility for one's actions and making an admission of guilt at the scene of an accident can be two different things.
When faced with an inevitable legal proceeding, it's best not to say anything, including noble suggestions of personal culpability, until you chat with your attorney and scope the lay of the land. Sometimes there are many different kinds of responsiblity or guilt in a a given situation. While you may legitimately have hit someone in an intersection, and are ready to see your insurance go up a bit to accomodate that blunder, you may not be so eager to find yourself personally sued for long-term medical claims that may or may not be legitimate.
My story: I rear-ended a woman about three years ago, at 10-15 miles an hour. One of those start-and-stop things at a confusing merge. Her car, a BMW, had no damage at all, my front end of my Corolla was very lightly creased.
I checked her out, she was fine, we drove to the strip mall across the street, and I dutifully called the police. The cop came, and was ready not write any tickets, since it was such a non-incident. Then the woman I hit calls her husband, confers, and decides since she's 2 month pregnant to sue for damages. The cop then was forced to write me a ticket, and took me to the side and said, sotto voce, to go to the nearby Walgreen's, buy an instant camera, and take as many pictures as I could of the both cars before she left. I did.
I went to court later, and she and hubby were there...judge gave me supervision. Haven't heard anything since, but that cued me right away to be wary of nobly stepping up and taking the blame on the spot. My thanks to that cop, for seeing bullshit a-brewing, and giving me the sage advice of the camera. I now keep one handy in my glove compartment, for accidend or that million-dollar alien landing photo that I'll sell to the Inquirer...
K. Lurk
Xanadu - '"[T]aking reasonable precautions to avoid being screwed does not carry with it an assumption the other person is going to screw you." Actually, it has to, else the precautions wouldn't be "reasonable" (acknowledging your examples). '
It doesn't carry that assumption. While I hesitate to turn this into a word-mincing session, I'm going to go to the wall on this one.
When I insist on waiting on the police, this does not mean I assume the other person will act with malice otherwise. When I avoid blurting out an apology, this doesn't mean I feel it's necessarily true such an apology would be used against me.
I can see your point that in a perfect world we would not have to take these precautions - and I admire your stance. But there is a huge gulf between preparing for the worst and assuming the worst. To assume something means you accept it as true without knowledge; I don't think it's at all fair to say that when I ask the other driver for their insurance information I am accepting it as true that they are going to screw me.
I contested your statement because it draws a connection between acting to protect oneself and thinking ill of others. As we've already seen, some people here have suffered because they or someone they loved has made the same mistake of believing they couldn't think of someone as a sweet old lady and also protect themselves from harm or fraud. I think it's important to make the distinction I do, even though it's a fine one, because people need to know they can be careful without being cynical.
Let me put it this way: we know for a fact there are bad people in the world. We know from just the posts here that people have been taken advantage of by someone that hit their car. When you know there are wolves in the woods, you don't go out without a knife or at least a good pair of shoes. But that doesn't mean you assume every creature you meet is after your flesh....
Actually, Daltrey doesn't make a dime off the ads that incorporate the music of the Who, all rights to the songs used are owned by his bandmate, Pete Townshend, through Eel Pie Inc., Pete's music publishing company. By the way, as a Whooligan, good for him.
Berm, I do see your point, but perhaps I'm a bit less proprietal about music. I tend to see what's mine as mine, and what's someone else's as theirs. All the same, seeing popular tunes making their way into ads doesn't affect me in any way. As Richards and Jagger wrote;
"...It's only rock & roll, but I like it, like it, yes I do!"
Would it satisfy ya? Would it slide on by ya?
Would ya think the BOS is strange? Ain't he stra-ya-yange?
Would you, at any time in his professional life, have called Michael Moorcock a "cautious optimist"?
I"m reading an intro he did and am getting that sense..
True or no?
H
Rick, when you say - "Make no admission of guilt and no apologies when you're involved in an accident.", and "Don't volunteer any information to the other driver....Your exchange should be limited to getting their driver's license, address, and insurance information." That's where I get the idea of cold and unfriendly - I'm grateful to be proven wrong, and I'm glad that you've had reasonable dealings with others.
You added later: "[T]aking reasonable precautions to avoid being screwed does not carry with it an assumption the other person is going to screw you." Actually, it has to, else the precautions wouldn't be "reasonable" (acknowledging your examples). I'm just sorry that your suggestions above are, in fact, considered reasonable - It doesn't speak well of us as a society. Neither does having to lock our doors at night.
And finally, "I think it's important to be the sort of idealist who doesn't walk in front of speeding trucks." (Here, here! - around my neck of the woods such an idealist is spelled I-D-I-O-T.) "I resent the implication that this involves becoming in some way hardened or distrustful, or having a less idealistic worldview than others..." Then I humbly disavow such an implication both publicly and clearly - that was not my intent. I had only intended to state my personal thinking regarding this, not even to suggest it was the sanest course. (It probably isn't, and it won't be the first time I've tilted at windmills - but I will tilt anyway.) In any case - please accept my apologies if I have irritating you.
JON: I pretty much stay away from anything Troma-related as much as I can. I haven't yet forgiven myself for renting PTERODACTYL WOMAN FROM BEVERLY HILLS. (Look, I was young. Okay, I'm still young, but come on...)
I disagree, Xandau.
First, protecting oneself does not mean being cold or unfriendly. Quite the opposite. In the 3 accidents I've been involved in I didn't have a bad experience with the other people at all. I did insist (politely) that we wait for the police, but that request was taken as perfectly understandable and we chatted on other subjects while we waited.
Second, taking reasonable precautions to avoid being screwed does not carry with it an assumption the other person is going to screw you. We all take precautions - we lock our doors at night or we stay away from wrong side of town at 3am or we avoid putting our name and address and phone number on the internet for everyone to see.
I try to always think the best of people, until I'm proven wrong. That doesn't mean I leave myself open for damage when I *am* proven wrong.
I think it's important to be the sort of idealist who doesn't walk in front of speeding trucks. And I resent the implication that this involves becoming in some way hardened or distrustful, or having a less idealistic worldview than others...
I disagree, Xandau.
First, protecting oneself does not mean being cold or unfriendly. Quite the opposite. In the 3 accidents I've been involved in I didn't have a bad experience with the other people at all. I did insist (politely) that we wait for the police, but that request was taken as perfectly understandable and we chatted on other subjects while we waited.
Second, taking reasonable precautions to avoid being screwed does not carry with it an assumption the other person is going to screw you. We all take precautions - we lock our doors at night or we stay away from wrong side of town at 3am or we avoid putting our name and address and phone number on the internet for everyone to see.
I try to always think the best of people, until I'm proven wrong. That doesn't mean I leave myself open for damage when I *am* proven wrong.
I think it's important to be the sort of idealist who doesn't walk in front of speeding trucks. And I resent the implication that this involves becoming in some way hardened or distrustful, or having a less idealistic worldview than others...
Because of "work for hire" agreements (which many artists agreed to without knowing they agreed to it), many artists don't have ANY rights to their material at all. It's not like Eric Clapton's selling beer or Daltrey is selling SUV's. The rights to those works may well not be theirs. They may, in fact, belong to a record company or to some other huge, faceless, conglomerate or other. Remember: Michael Jackson owns a significant portion of the Lennon/McCartney songbook.
Anyone remember those great magazine liquor ads from the 50s with writers that included Hemingway and Faulkner peddling whiskey? Wow -- the writer as a public enough figure to do advertising...Aaron Sorkin's recent appearance in a print Gap ad made me think of those ads, Harlan's Geo ad and Lou Reed's scooter ad, too.
Little Washu: So, have you seen *Fat Guy Goes Nutzoid*? Now there's a treat...
Jon
BAG-O-SCOTT: 'Red Zone Cuba' is not forgetful, anymore than being raped is forgetful. Fortunetly it's an obscure little piece of stinky banana peel, unlike BATTLEFIELD EARTH which you can spot out at any video store near you. BE won't be allowed to rot away in peace because it's expensive and it has a star. (Well, I guess that's debatable.)
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Scott-- Yeah, it's their music. So? It's MY money they're trying to get outta my pocket, so it's my decision how I'll respond to their commercial. If their purpose is to appeal to me, it's not working. It turns me off to see art used to peddle crap. Sure, let the artists sell out if they want. I'm not trying to STOP them. It's their right to degrade their art into crass, slick advertising. I'm just saying, I ain't buying it, and I think less of them for trying to sell it to me that way. Do you see the distinction I'm making here? I'm not attempting to or calling for impingeing on their free will; I'm exercising mine in response.
Bermanator
Bermanator, who said:
"How can I respect Eric Clapton when he, a recovering alcoholic, sells beer? Or Roger "Hope I Die Before I Get Old" Daltrey, when he peddles SUVs to soccer moms? It feels like pandering."
It's THEIR music, not yours. They wrote it, produced the albums, then sold it to you and me and everyone else. They can do whatever they please with it. As far as I'm concerned the issue of whether or not they need the money isn't up to you or I, it's whether or not they want it. If they want it, and a company is willing to pay massive amounts of money to use the music, go for it.
When I look at record companies I see how they often gouged their talent (the tale of what happened to John Fogerty's catalogue comes to mind) and how often labels still do it today, not to mention how much these corporations gouge the listening public. If I'd been one of those who've gotten the chance to taste the success I'd do it myself without apology, knowing how many others get a cut off my efforts, and never made any efforts of their own.
It's that libertarian slant of mine; if you created it, you own it; therefore you should profit most from it.
BOS
Brian-- I understand your position re: great, classic music used for commercial purposes. Nothing Al Hendrix could possibly do could make me love Jimi's music any less. After all, Jimi's not around to make bad decisions anymore, and nothing could mar my enjoyment of his work.
What is effected is my opinion of the artist who DOES have control over his catalogue, who allows his music to be used to make slick commercials sells stuff people don't need. How can I respect Eric Clapton when he, a recovering alcoholic, sells beer? Or Roger "Hope I Die Before I Get Old" Daltrey, when he peddles SUVs to soccer moms? It feels like pandering. I feel a bit manipulated, as if the rush of fond memories, of love that I feel when I hear those favorite songs, is being turned to an insidious, commercial purpose. THAT is why I feel aggravated. Not psychotically enraged, just aggravated.
You can't tell me they need the money. That cuts no ice with me. I guess everything is relative, but I feel no pity for them if their artistic integrity is less important to them than acquiring that fourth Mercedes. I suppose if making money off their music was their primary goal, then bully for them for achieving their dream. It's not for me to say what they should do with their work. It is my prerogative, however, to be critical of the advertising industry's use of this much-loved music to sell products.
I *can* separate my enjoyment of the music from my feelings about the artist. A Chevy commercial isn't going to ruin Led Zeppelin's "Rock and Roll" for me, because nothing could, but it does make me think a little bit less of Robert, Jimmy, and John Paul. In the great scheme of things, it matters little what I think of them, I guess, but there it is, anyway.
Bermanator
Sorry Rick, last query was meant for Rich, unless you've met that special guy...
Rick, Todd, Lynn et al:
No surprises here; perhaps it's my own history of larceny that makes me a bit more suspicious of my fellow human animals. Mel was once one of those who liked to see the good in everyone; I helped her past that with little difficulty. Well, no such thing as the good old days either; where there's advantage, folks have tried to seize it. Still, Lynn, I hope the matter is settled expediently.
Chuck: Regarding "Rocket Man", the T.J. Hooker (funny how the connotations of prostitution and Shatner seem to bookend nicely) arrangement. No thanks, I'll pass on that little piece of audial offal. Thanks you for the warning, however.
"Night Train to Mundo Fine" from "Red Zone Cuba"? Yep, have subjected myself to that piece of forgetful cinema. Not quite painful enough for a corneal scraping, but it was three or four weeks before the bowel obstruction it caused cleared up enough to let me walk upright with little pain.
With that, back to the adventures of laundry...Ever since our youngest arrived, we've not had a week under eight loads.
BTW, Rick, how goes fatherhood?
BOS
Rick – while I appreciate the reality of your statements – I just gotta say: damn, isn't it terrible that we live in a world that almost requires one to be cold and, well you said it – unfriendly?
I also have to disagree with your basic premise – It _is_ OLDNM's and SC's fault. By misrepresenting the events, or actually commiting fraud, they are twisting a system that is supposed to ease the financial burdens of accidents by sharing them equitably. The shafting of "you and yours" occurs only when the other party lies. If they told the truth, then "blame", such as it is, would be assigned fairly to those involved, along with financial culpability.
Your "rules" are only necessary in a world where the basic assumption is that the other party is not honorable. It may be a realistic assumption, but it is sad one – and while it may cost me, it's one I am not willing to support. I will act honorably, to the best of my ability, in all aspects of my life. That is my goal, that is my ideal – I know it's not terribly realistic, but hey, it's my fantasy now, isn't it?
As a side note: There is a growing legal movement in this country that would "protect" the apology. It would legally shield the maker of such an apology from any formal admission of guilt. The theory holds that if you can say you're sorry without getting hammered for it later, it might just reduce the number of lawsuits. It mollifies the offended party and it is legally "non-binding".
CHUCK: OH MY GOD!!! YOU SAW 'RED ZONE CUBA' TOO?!?
Chalk THAT film up into the 'so horrible it's surreal' category. I happened to catch it on a MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000 episode. (One helluva funny show...you should see their takes on 'perfect white male' shorts from the 1950's.)
Mind you, I don't have that as much hatred directed to these zero-budgeted epics, as opposed to BATMAN & ROBIN and it's ilk where millions of dollars are blown on seeing Arnold say, "KILL DA HEEEEEEEEROOOOOEEEEES!!!" But it's so easy to bash BATMAN & ROBIN it's become a fad these days.
SHATNER: Wow, he even had someone else write TEKWAR? Thanks for filling me in, guys. I've heard some of his singing, too. Not of this world.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
I'm going to go ahead and say it.
It's not Old Lady Driving Nice Minivan's fault, or Said Cunt's, that you or yours got shafted. It was your responsibility to get any needed witnesses and get a proper police report just the same as it would be your responsibity to get your kid a tetanus shot if he stepped on a rusty nail. I'll give you the run-down:
(1) Make no admission of guilt and no apologies when you're involved in an accident. You might say "Oh my gosh, I'm sorry" to some old lady who rear-ended you and later hear that come back to you as an admission of guilt rather than an expression of concern.
(2) Don't volunteer any information to the other driver. It's not their job to determine what happened, it's the police's. Your exchange should be limited to getting their driver's license, address, and insurance information. If they can't provide insurance information get what you can and make sure the police know. (These first two may seem unfriendly, so be it - you have to protect yourself. Be friendly, just don't turn it into a conversation at the Russian Tea Room.)
(3) Make sure they wait for the police - if they don't, get their license and report them for leaving the scene of an accident. I don't care if it's 20 minutes or 2 hours - make them wait. And you wait, too.
(4) Be polite with the police and let them know what happened. Make sure you find out what the other person said and what tickets, if any, are being issued. If there is a disagreement be polite but firm and ask the police how much you are able to dispute at the scene.
(5) Try to find a witness or two. Usually no one will stop but if they do ask them to please stay and wait for the police. Sometimes they will.
(6) Report the accident to your insurance company immediately, especially if the motorist is uninsured or disputes what happened. If they can get payment from the motorist or find they had insurance, you didn't have an uninsured claim.
If you didn't do this, or instruct your significant other to do so, soak the deductible or rate increase as a learning experience and move on. Don't remonstrate about the unfairness of life or the evilness of your common man, the simple fact is you (or yours) got put in a position without being prepared and were taken advantage of because of it.
- Rick (who had a car panel replaced and door fixed because his wife couldn't bear to make the sweet old man who came into her lane at an agonizing 15mph get a ticket)
Bag-O-Scott, Little Washu, et al on Shatner's "singing":
You havent' known agony unless you saw Shatner perform ROCKET MAN at the Science Fiction Film Awards back in the late 70's. I was squirming in my seat. I wouldn't be surprised if a few people gnawed their own legs off to re-direct the pain. Now, for a good laugh, I would recommend Leonard Nimoy singing THE LEGEND OF BILBO BAGGINS. He's clearly having a good time, but his singing voice isn't up to the level of enthusiasm. At least he was a professional when approaching the material.
For creepiest singing by an actor, I'd nominate John Carradine singing the title song, NIGHT TRAIN TO MUNDO FINE for the grade Z low-budget movie, RED ZONE CUBA. It will live in your nightmares.
Chuck
"Taking a gamble that cannot last, night train to the end."
If you're going through here and want some titles for Mr. Slesar, try http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?Henry_Slesar
Or do a google search (or the search of your choice). Given the breadth of knowledge floating around here, along with the general graciousness with which it's delivered, I don't think anyone's going to jump down anyone's throat if someone asks 'who is'...unless it was already covered in a thread three days ago. And even then...
Jon
To the Shatner writing credit adjustments: Don't forget Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens for the Kirk Resurrected ST novels. They're Canadian, so I'm obligated to plug them. Well, no, not really, but anyway.
God, Goulart -- how many of the Avenger reissues/continuations did he write? 10? 11? And a Captain America novel as Joseph Silva? All while writing his own novels under his own name. It makes me embarrassed everytime I claim writer's block, although to use Gaiman's distinction from his journal, it's always really a case of not-writing with me.
Cheers,
Jon
Evening, all. Wonderful night spent at the ballpark, pity the end result couldn't match the fun. My littlest got a great thrill; she got both an autographed ball and a big hug from Carlos Delgado. Never thought there'd be a day when I'd be jealous of a three-year-old. I mean, I'm cuddly too...
Todd: Good Christ Almighty: what the hell did you and the Mrs. do to deserve that? Always seems like the simplest thing are the ones that screw up largest. Myself, I've never had an accident, so have never had any of the difficulties with law enforcement in that fashion. Still, it leaves me to wonder where the hell the tax dollars spent for training go.
Washu: Hate to burst your bubble, but one of the worst kept secrets in SF is the knowledge that old T.J. Hooker ain't a writer. The Tekwar series is probably largely being penned by one Ron Goulart, who shouldn't be wasting his sizeable talent on this dreck. Now as for Shatner's miniscule singing ability, well, the toupee donning Montreal thespian can take whole cloth blame for that one.
Trust me, you haven't lived in agony until you hear Bill's take on "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds.
I leave you all to sleep on that horrid thought. Sweet dreams, kiddies!
BOS
LITTLE WASHU: Doesn't matter. See, he doesn't write any of his books. Ron Goulart writes most of the Tek books, with Bill Quick writing the rest, and Chris Kreski wrote Shatner's memoirs.
Goulart is a fine writer and comics historian; his Groucho Marx mysteries are great reads.
Bill is a nice guy and a good writer, even though I wish he would go back to writing his own books rather than doing novelizations of series like ROAR and such.
Little Washu,
Re: Shatner
No.
Regards,
Joseph
David Loftus: The Hamilton Library at the University of Hawaii at Mano'a (the "main campus") is as impressive as any state-U library I've seen. That they have one of three copies of the Kersh doesn't surprise me at all. You should've seen the collected works of James Branch Cabell, from sometime in the '20s or '30s, they still had in the general collection as late as 1982, that (leaving aside the brilliance of the prose content) would floor anyone (at least anyone like myself) in the magnificence of the illustration and general book-making. Sinclair Library wasn't too shabby, either, better than my later school's, George Mason University in the VA DC suburbs, famously slight one.
Alex, as you can guess, I share your sorrow, though I (as I said) had only the slightest of acquaintance with him (an email exchange or two), Henry Slesar gave every evidence of being a man of the highest integrity and generosity, as well as a brilliant writer, both for the page and the screen (I shall have to seek out his stage plays). I'm in a shitty mood, so perhaps this shades my impressions of a lot more discussion here of Hendryx's death three decades ago vs. Slesar's this week.
Though, to turn to another bit of business, Isaac Asimov's late and ?coercive doctors would seem to have a Lot more to answer for than Charles Brown does. And one hopes Dr. Janet Asimov has been ok, and will be ok, since those incompetent doctors indirectly potentially exposed her to AIDS, as well.
Two things:
I find I am having dreams of almost completed-like stories. This is unusual for me. (In fact, I seem to remember a lot of recent years, I didn't even dream.)
Nothing incredible yet.. but I do know on two occasions, I woke from sleep recalling complete, seemingly original ideas--storylines.. very strange..
Also..this happened last night, or sometime this morning, most recently...I'm finding sometimes my conversations, talking to oneself in one's brain..are sometimes getting away from me..
I stop.. listening to what I seem to be thinking and for a moment, I thought someone ELSE was having a conversation with me.
No. Nothing nutzo. I dunno.
But like, I was tuning INTO someone else talking..
then I realized it was just me.. thinking..
Has this ever happened to you?
H, not doing any harder drugs than Cadbury bars, I swear.
TODD: Your story of vengeance is nothing compared to the annihilation I want to visit upon a hurtful viper who happened to be the lead actress in a recent play I was involved in.
I'd like to ask a touchy question to you all, if you don't mind:
Is William Shatner a good writer?
Now I am asking this single question without any clouded prejuidice, personal experiences with the man himself, or mind-numbing phobia of ghost writers. I saw Mr. Shatner's TEKWAR in a used bookstore and I was momentarily intrigued by the 'quickie summary' on the back of the cover. Then again, I was momentarily intrigued by a dozen other books in the same store. In the end, it was either Harlan's ANGRY CANDY (first time I found a good copy anywhere) or Bill's TEKWAR.
I got ANGRY CANDY.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Re the use of Hendrix in commercials. I've learned to not let that sort of thing bother me very much. Sure, it was bad when Nike used the Beatles' "Revolution." But it also bugged me when Jon Cryer made a mockery of the great Otis Redding's "Try a Little Tenderness" in a John Hughes movie. But there's no moral case to be made from it.
I used to hear the argument that, by using such music in such contexts, it'll lead to the younger generation not understanding the meaning of that music. In other words, John Lennon would just be a sneaker salesman to the young'uns, who probably wouldn't respect Bob Dylan very much, either. Fine. Then why not complain about the use of Rossini or Beethoven in _A Clockwork Orange_? After all, they didn't compose for street thugs. (Okay, Beethoven composed the _Eroica_ for Napoleon, but that's another matter.) Why not complain that the majesty of John Philip Sousa is compromised by its use by the Monty Python crowd?
The fact is that there are a lot of creative people who like to use music for their own reasons. Some work in film, others in TV, others in commercials. Maybe their choices aren't what I'd make. But really, the fact that the Nike commercials and Jon Cryer happened does _NOT_ make that music any less fine for me. At least, I shouldn't LET it ruin the music for me.
So, if I hear a great song used in a commercial, bothers me only a little. But it's the sort of thing I'll tolerate for the sake of having people who'll use them _right_.
Yeah.. that's the one I meant. (Bebe's got a cool voice. That WOULD be nice.) I PREVIEWED the title, "Snow, Glass, Apple," that I'd typed in the "Your city" field before I posted my message but it seems to have disappeared. What's the protocol on that field? Is there something I should do to be sure the full "subject" I enter isn't truncated?
Job at the cafeteria ended yesterday. Whoop. Spent the afternoon at the public library looking at books on myth and religion. My original plan was just to find "Amercan Gods" (I know they have it, but it wasn't there, anyways) but I got sidetracked. Lots of neat stuff at the library.
Here's just a few questions:
1. "The Gnostic Scriptures"--Is that the book Ellison mentioned? Will get that one later.
2. Joseph Campbell and the science of myth--Is he kinda like what Carl Sagan was to astronomy? He reads rather nicely. Saw two books of his--"The Power of Myth" (I think it was) and a collection of essays. Will try them later. (I was TRYING NOT to get out a lot of books, damn it. Ended up with four, as it was. *sigh*)
Was looking for Asimov's "Azazael" but couldn't find it this trip. Got "Murder at the ABA" though, and was looking for an Isabel Allende to try (an acquaintance I'd just met in the mall spoke of her and it reminded me we'd talked of her, I think--"House of the Spirits".. right?) and picked up "Eva Luna." While picking up the Allende saw a half dozen books by Jorge Amado. Got "Show Down."
Went to another downtown comic book store. They've got a few of the collected editions of the Sandman stories. They're numbered (as I'm sure you know.) The ones they seem to have right now are the one before the graphic novel that Harlan intro'd and about six others. Will chew over which to try soon. But I picked up a used paperback of "Neverwhere" and later stopped at McNally Robinson to buy (my second hardcover. Woop.) "American Gods." This Gaiman guy looks interesting. (Yes. I know. I'm miles behind the class. Bite me--but don't leave tiny scars, please.)
H, somewhere between the cafeteria and the gas station.
Brian-- Not sure I feel better knowing that Jimi's death was just an accident, but thanks for the info.
Scott-- I admit, I am one of those people who gets annoyed when I hear music that is close to my heart in commercials. Here's a fer instance: Eric Clapton is a recovering alcoholic. This is a known fact; so then why did he license "After Midnight" for a Miller Beer commercial? Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical? Doesn't that bug you just a tiny bit?
Now, I did not know Jimi Hendrix personally, but he didn't strike me as the type of guy who would have wanted his music to be used to hawk SUVs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he would have changed a lot in the last 3 decades and money would have become more important to him than his hippie ideals. I understand his dad needs to pay the bills, and I'm not sure what I would do in that situation... but I hope I would stay true to the professed ideals of the artist.
Your mileage may vary,
Bermanator
Insurance Story For Lynn’s Edification: About 18 months ago the lovely spouse gets into an accident. She is driving through a brightly lit green light when suddenly she is smashing into the driver’s side of another car crossing through a brightly lit red light. Fortunately, there are no injuries as it is drizzling out and both cars are traveling fairly slowly.
The lovely spouse is shaken up and stays in her car. The late-50’s is cunt (language deserved, as you will soon read) comes out of her car and goes to the lovely spouse and says “Are you o.k.? I’m sorry! I’m so sorry!!!”. Sounds open and shut, huh?
Lovely spouse (LS) calls me at work, still shaken, says to come get her and there is a cop already there and she is not hurt and hurry and come save her from this horror (she was shaken up, as you can see). So I head right over and I am able to still drive her car so we begin to head off to the body shop. As I hop into her car, I spot said cunt (SC) standing by her car, which CAN’T be driven away, waiting for the tow. Cop is long gone.
A week later I head to the police station to pick up the accident report that will obviously say that SC (I feel better typing ‘cunt’, but I’m sure that irritates some people) is at total fault and her insurance company will pay my damages. I read the report: SC states that LS ran read. Of course, LS states that SC ran red. SC lied right to the cop’s face and the motherfucking lazyass cop (MFLC) never advised my wife of this so she could dispute and drag MFLC into one of the many many little shops around the accident scene where someone MUST have seen the accident. MFLC just takes down SC’s lie and leaves.
We’re out of luck. No fault because no proof that either one really ran the red. I’m out $500 deductible and my rates go up (fortunately, only a tad) because SC, who fucking said to my lovely innocent wife “I’m sorry. I’m so sorry.” Then lied her fucking ass off to the cop and made my wife a fucking basket case for a few months because the accident just scared the shit out of her.
I note to LS that I now have the woman’s address from the accident report. I want to send a letter with one, huge-fonted word on it: LIAR!!! I want to egg her house. I want to flatten her tires. I want to spread many shiny sharp things on her driveway. I want to…..but LS refuses my need to explore my urges. I must do nothing. NOTHING.
Ahhh, but it’s 18 months later, and I still haven’t forgotten. One day……one day…..when SC turns 60….or even 70…..when she’s on her deathbed at St. Claire’s hospital waiting for the Angel of Mercy to strike her down to hell with his/her/it’s sword….one day I will be at her side. Nya ha ha ha ha !!! (If I had a mustache, I would be twisting it right about now)
-TODD
Michael Hurley-
Re: Asimov. Suggest you quickly go thru the postings of the last few days (including Harlan's entries on 04/02) on that issue..
David Loftus
Re:_Jack of Swords_
Is it a retitled version of _Brazen Bull_, which originally included the story "Jack of Swords," or do you believe it to be a whole new collection altogether?
I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I am curious about something I learned today at the bookstore browsing the new nonfiction releases. Apparently Isaac Asimov had AIDS in the last part of his life--he'd acquired HIV during his triple bypass in the 80's. He and his doctor decided to keep quiet about it (well, obviously the doctor was obliged to) because it was around the time that Arthur Ashe was making headlines and so on. While the AIDS adversely affected his health as one might expect, his ultimate cause of death was kidney and heart failure.
Was anyone else aware of this? I've always been a fan of his (my father met him on the street once and mentioned that I liked the Norby series of books) and was curious as to the exact circumstances of his death, since it hadn't been discussed in anything I'd read. In this new (?) book--I can't remember the title--there are also a few photos of Harlan; one was taken at Asimov's funeral while Ben Bova was speaking.
Infoman: Only human. Yes. I cop to it. I agree. The "white lie" is a sticky little beast - and yes, I have told them. But I don't like it, and I don't feel that great afterword. I prefer to stand quiet, or pick some infinitesimally small detail to comment on than lie directly. I have told people that they look terrible in that suit, but I didn't need to slash their ego to do it.
I am guilty of the "lie of omission". In fact, that is my primary mode of dissembling - quiet avoidance.
But I will not lie for the big stuff - the important stuff - even in the face of great consequence.
I avoid having to do this by NOT getting into situations that would warrant it. I am a human being - I can make informed decisions and I can avoid moral or ethical gray areas. I don't cheat on my taxes - but I'll squeak every damn dime I'm legally entitled to.
I resist the idea that "everybody does it", and that makes it OK. What's the point of having a vision of an ideal world, if you're not willing to work at it in yourself? We're all works-in-progress - we can aspire to something greater.
But - you're right - we all lie, in some form or another.
Susan: Thank you for the forms. I completed and mailed it in along with the manuscript. Keeping fingers crossed. Thanks again, Charlie.
A quick one, then out the door. Mel's putting her face on, and we're taking the wee ones to the ballgame.
Al Hendrix: I say what I say about all artists and their work; they crafted it, they can do any damn thing they please with it. Since Jimi's not about, Al's in charge, and as far as I'm concerned he could put "The Star Spangled Banner" into a tampon ad for all I care.
I'm always left wondering how it is that fans somehow come to have some sense of proprietal nature over an artist's work, enough to make them feel at some level they have a right to determine its commerciality or what venues they'd allow the artist to enter into. The artist wrote it and created it; their only reponsibility to us is to place the music on the vinyl, or the words on the page, or the film onto the screen; once we've paid for it, that's all we as patrons deserve.
Lynn: Not surprised at the old woman's sudden change of heart, but left a bit dismayed. We've always been one to get it in writing, it's just best.
With that, Mel's gathering purse and children; we're off to see the Blue Jays. Have fun all.
BOS
XANADU: Don't kid yourself, kid: 99.9 percent of us humans lie to somebody sometime (hey, I think there's a song in there somewhere). You. Me. The guy over there in corner. The petite redhead walking down the street. Even Harlan Ellison. Sometimes it can be a lie to cover up something you did that will either bring retribution, judgement or anger and hurt feelings from someone you love. Sometimes it can be a "white lie," the kind told to someone whose feelings you wouldn't want to hurt (say an overweight friend in a suit or dress that doesn't exactly flatter them because it's now a bit too tight). Or even a stranger. 'Course, there are people who would say, "Lady (or mister) you're fat and too ugly to EVER find someone who'd want to date you." Or, "Yes, honey, I DID sleep with that woman (or man) several months ago, and it's been bothering me so much that I wanted to share it (and the pain and anguish) with you right now, and screw up both our lives forever (rather than suck it up and go on with life while trying to get back on the straight and narrow)." Or, well...no need for more examples. You get it. Right? Right?
Informationally, the man.
I managed to score a pulp paperback copy of Gerald Kersh's _The Secret Masters_ (_The Great Wash_ in England) last weekend.
Just out of curiousity, I applied for _Jews Without Jehovah_ through interlibrary loan. A database search by my local library found three copies extant: at the Library of Congress, the New York Public Library, and the University of Hawaii (?). Of course, none of them were willing to let go of their copy even for interlibrary loan.
Harlan:
A Kersh title that's listed inside the local library's copy of _The Angel and the Cuckoo_ does not appear in any of the otherwise seemingly extensive bibliographies for the author in the various Gale Research publications: _Contemporary Authors_, _The St. James Guide to Horror, Ghost & Gothic Writers_, etc.
It is: _Jack of Swords_.
Do you have a copy of this? If you can provide the publisher's name and pub date, I'm willing to harass the Gale Research people into updating their listings to include this title to Kersh's credit....
Lurk: No argument - most people will turn their own grandmothers to get out of something, but I simply cannot _not_ tell the truth - even when it represents significant consequences. I start to feel icky just contemplating it.
My early grounding in ethics, of course, comes from my parents, and some spectacular lessons they taught me. But I can definitely trace part of my strong sense of personal responsibility to the writings of The Man.
Thank you, Mr. Ellison - not for any particular direct help - but acting as an unflinching guide to a life and a skin that's easier to sleep in. "Clean hands and composure".
Xanadu, while it's obvious that the pleasure of being broad-sided by you is matched only by your sense of honor in the aftermath, most people are still more likely than not to cadge out of any accountability. This culture of irresponsibility is fostered by both the insurance companies and the legal profession, which always counsels a "not guilty" vote unless you managed to whomp someone's car on national television, maybe as a background distraction to the latest Bush stump speech.
Even then, a good attorney will find a way to get you off the hook. But I do salute your sense of ownership for your mistakes...it's an ever-dwindling commodity in these ethically vacuous times.
King Lurk
Lynn: Luck!
Re: Hendrix; there is also a theory that he had slovenly treatment from the EMS or ambulance drivers, and that if they had done their jobs better they could've saved him.
R.W.
Lurk/Lynn: Just to be the exception that proves the rule – I caused an accident some five or six years ago. It was a small town, secondary street "T" intersection – I was coming up the stem and the other lady was traveling along the arm. I put my foot on the brakes and it slips. (Not to toot my own horn too much, but I have blazing reflexes – years of video games as a kid) I hit the brakes again, harder – and slip a SECOND time. The car jumps, and I hit the brakes even harder – and slip a THIRD time. (Position in the seat; worn, comfortable shoes; and a worn pad on the brake pedal all contributed.) BAM! Impact and evaluation, a moment's pause – I'm fine – I get out of the car to check on the other driver. I ask her if she's all right – she's shaken, but fine – and very upset – it's her mom's car. I apologize repeatedly and continue to make sure she's all right – a neighbor calls the police (told you it's a small town) – he arrives and I tell HIM the accident is my fault. He notes the conditions and positions of both cars and the two of us. The accident happened at such slow speeds, there is just the imprint of my car on her passenger side – a perfect imprint – no scraping – just the push in. The officer leaves, no ticket is issued.
Later, after reporting the accident to my insurance company, I get a followup call from them asking about details of the accident. (This is the good-guy part) They ask if a ticket was issued – I say no. I tell them it was my fault – and no, the other lady did not contribute to it, and no, she could not have avoided it. They seemed surprised – but they thanked me, and that was that.
They paid the $2000 dollars it took to fix the lady's car – I took a slight hit on my insurance for a few years (much less than $2000 – less than a $1000, actually) and everybody came out all right.
Sometimes there ARE sweet little old ladies when it comes to insurance wrangling, and sometimes they look like late twenty-something, overweight guys.
Lynn, now you see the violence inherent in the system. There are no such things as sweet little old ladies when it comes to insurance wrangling.
Next time call a cop, pronto...then she gets her ticket for no insurance.
King Lurk
Status update, Code Trivial: I hear from my insurance company the "nice little old lady" is telling the insurance company (who hasn't decided if they cover her driving that vehicle) that *I* ran a stop sign, which is pretty funny because there isn't a stop sign at that intersection.
Once again Lynn gets a lesson in the true nature of human beings. ::sigh::
But I am consoled by the fact that I leave for Fresno in a few hours to see Unca Harlan speak at the William Saroyan Writers' Conference. Wish me luck. ::whispering:: I'm actually taking a manuscript with me.
L.
To Frank Church, re Hendrix "suicide" and Al Hendrix's despair over use of Jimi's music. First of all, Hendrix died because of an _inadvertent_ overdose of sleeping pills. He'd picked up the prescription in Germany, where higher dosages were used, so he didn't _know_ he was taking far too much. (His girlfriend's hesitation was also a factor.)
As for Eric Burdon's claims-- Eric Burdon is a melodramatic, reality-deficient idiot who was (and maybe still is) prone to believe nearly any conspiracy theory imaginable-- many of which seem to have been imagined by him. Rule #6 of the Rock Historian's Code: NEVER believe anything Eric Burdon claims.
As for how Al Hendrix feels, it's hard to say. A few years ago, he finally acquired the rights to Jimi's catalog and tapes after long legal battles with the various fucks who'd glommed onto Jimi's good nature. It was thanks to Al that those wonderful remastered versions of his classic albums were released. So chances are, all those commercials have licensed Jimi's music with Al's blessing. He may or may not _like_ it, but the man's gotta eat, keep a roof over his head, and tend his son's tremendous memory for the folks of Oakland.
I still think you're too kind about Dennis de Young-- a high-school theatre groupie whose ambition was to be Andrew Lloyd Webber. (And Peter Allen was jes' fine by me, ektually.)
Frank-- Where did you hear that Jimi Hendrix committed suicide? I would be interested in following up on that. I thought he overdosed and then aspirated. The woman he was with apparently hesitated to call the ambulance because there were illegal drugs in the room, and her hesitation is what killed him. That and all the barbituates he took. If there is another version of events, please direct me to them.
Thanks,
Bermanator
"Castles made of sand slip into the sea, eventually...
Aw, not Slesar. I never met him physically, though we shared a few phone conversations. A friendly, generous man, and a great writer. One of the masters of the short-short story. RIP.
Thanks, Andrew. My first three searches yielded ISS tracking pages that didn't indicate a.m. sighting times. Has anyone seen the comet yet? -- Jon
Henry Slesar, 1927-2002 (2 April), according to today's NEW YORK TIMES.
A brilliant writer. Seemed, as one with the slightest of acquaintance, a generous man, as well.
Jon,
Try this link:
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/
It'll direct you to a JAVA applet that'll give you tracking info on the ISS, as well as several other satellites.
-Andrew
Konnichi wa, folks!
Thought I'd drop in quickly an address for an intriguing article on the current state of Hollywood by the webmaster of COMING ATTRACTIONS:
www.corona.bc.ca/films/directorscut/homepage.html
Agree or disagree, I think he still has a valid point.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Joseph, I just double checked and yes, there is also a brand new 30 minute documentary on the making of Bull Durham on the DVD. What's great is that this brand new DVD is being sold as if it's just an old movie that no one really cares about.....if you find the right store, it is damn cheap. I mean, cheaper than VHS with all those extras and in letterbox? How can you resist?
-TODD
Hey, I sound like a comercial!
Joseph, the new Bull Durham DVD release has two commentaries....one by Ron Shelton and the other by Costner and Robbins. I read a review that said the Costner/Robbins commentary is quite humorous; at one point Robbins is asking Costner if he is getting an erection in his love scene with his soon-to-be-hunny Sarandon and Costner gets real uncomfortable though giggly. The Shelton commentary is supposed to delve a lot into his baseball playing days.
I don't remember if there is a documentary (a real doc, not an HBO commercial) or not, but the movie on DVD and two commentaries was enough for me to plunk down my mere $13.99.
-TODD
All this talk about Asimov and such...Last year I found this website--http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asimov.html--from the New York Times website and it has reviews, I believe an essay or two by the man himself, and, my favorite, and audio interview one can download and listen to. I listened to it a year or more ago so the details of it is sketchy but I remember sitting, listening to a voice that had been gone for a while, and thinking that maybe the Internet isn't ALL bad.
Anyway, I figured I'd throw that out there. The New York Times site has some other pages similar to it devoted to other authors including Stephen King.
Bill
Hmmm...Remember the dihydrogen monoxide thread from those halcyon days of February or March 2002? Check http://www.kmov.com/news/News_OffBeat/kmov_offbeatnews_020402_radioprank.38e3e5e4.html
It's only funny until someone panics...
Anyhoo, any amateur astronomy buffs out there? I was out at 2:20 a.m. in the morning of April 4, admiring the night sky, and noticed what I thought was Mars at just about due west, about one-hand's-height-at-arm's-length above the horizon. 'Mars' proceeded to move 45 degrees northwards, remaining apparently parallel to the horizon, over the next five minutes until it vanished from sight behind the tree line. I checked a couple of astronomy sites for details on the international space station, and while they had it in the sky in approximately that area, it wasn't listed anywhere near that time. Any suggestions? It's possible that the Sky and Astronomy site has a glitch that doesn't allow it to post any appearances by the ISS in the a.m..
Oh, the red star-like object also saved me from a motorcycle accident when I was out in the desert, so it may actually be a UFO.
Jon
Heather,
Did you mean "Snow, Glass, Apples"? Try poking around on scifi.com until you find the audio version with Bebe Neuwirth. Really good stuff. Coming out as an audio novel in May with "Murder Mystery," starring Brian Dennehy.
Regards,
Joseph
You think YOU have weird tastes in DVD...
On my list this week. Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season One, Carnival of Souls Criterion Coll, Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back, Buckaroo Banzai, Starwoids, and Detroit 2000.
Sunday will be Ken Burn's Jazz VHS compilation, Liquid Sky, MP & Holy Grail, Green Goblin's Last Stand, Donnie Darko, Ghostbusters, Ran, El Dorado, Barton Fink, And Then There Were None, MST3K the Movie, Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas/Where the Buffalo Roam Double Feature, Tootsie and, as my eyes go blind and my soul cries out for real human contact... a collection of 1940s Superman cartoons and US Army Atomic Bomb films.
Then... a wah-fer thin mint...
Okay, I'm looking for an opinion here. I've presently got two interpretations happening--based on what I've read.
I found an interview where Harlan, in reference to Asimov, (and in trying to make a point about Harlan's OWN decisions on what he does and does not write, and who he listens to on that matter), Harlan suggested that Asimov was sometimes being told what to write--Asimov's creativity being reined back.
I'm assuming this is more to do with the later Robot and Foundation novels. It sounds like his publishers were ALWAYS eager to get Asimov to write more books on these two series due to their early success.
But.. hmm..throughout the "I, Asimov" autobiography (and I know Asimov only from this, really; I haven't read much else of his stuff yet), Isaac always seemed to be putting his foot down and saying, "THIS is what I will write, and how I will write it."
Is the truth somewhere in-between?
Asimov--from that book--sounds very much like a guy to likes everyone to be happy. Was he doing things to make OTHERS happy, instead of himself?
(Don't read tomes into all this. I hardly know the guy and was merely confused when, after reading most of his autobiography, reading Harlan's interview, where he mentioned this -- in general; with no specific reference to what books -- about Asmimov.)
Heather
I don't know if I'm the only person who noticed this but I'll throw it out to see if anyone cares. I was thumbing through "Harlan Ellison: The Edge Of Forever" today (since it arrived yesterday) and it struck me as odd that the people who wrote this book couldn't even fact check their own introduction.
page 1:
"Television talk shows know him as a reliably opinionated and controversial guest, making hima regular on Tom Snyder's TOMORROW program in the 1990's..."
page 2: (this one is nitpicky...I'll give you that)
"Ellison has been reputed to mail dozens of bricks--individually--to a recalcitrant publisher." Reputed? As in "being such according to reputation or popular belief"? Hell, he admitted it in On The Road With Ellison! They make it sounds like it's a fable or myth (and it was the comptroller he sent it to at the publisher). They lead up to this gem by saying that: "Like the Harlequin, Ellison sometimes uses oddball tactics to shake up the system." The way HE tells it he wasn't trying to shake up the system, he was trying to get the publisher to abide by the contract pertaining to the book in question. That doesn't sound like shaking up the system to me, but what the hell do I know?
It's just seems to me that if a lunkhead like myself (who is far from any type of Ellison expert) can notice these things, you'd think that two people writing a book about the man would take the time to check things out. And of course they'd have to have a typo pertaining to Rick in there as well. This is all after having flipped through the book for about 5 minutes.
I can only hope it gets better.
Tony
Just finished this story. (One of his story excerpts from Smoke and Mirrors--on his site, as an ebook.) My first of Neil Gaiman's. My interpretation of the story of "Snow White" has been changed... forever. This is right up there with Ellison's interpretation of Genesis, and the snake. Wow.
Good writing.
H
Todd,
What's on the new edition of "Bull Durham?" Anything new for one of my favorite movies?
Regards,
Joseph "Nuke" Finn
Lynn: Turncoat!? Please note, that I have refrained from comment (though, god knows Jim left me quite an opening...). ::grin::
Bagus-o-Scottus: I kinda thought that's what you had in mind. I'm worried that I'm being the dork by accepting. I'll have to decline your generous offer of that Arizona beach-front property though...
-Andrew
Brian, you think YOU have a wide range of DVD tastes....here are my recent DVD purchases (already own The Third Man, one of my absolute positively super duper favorites, The Trial and the Millenium Edition Night Of The Living Dead): Bull Durham Special Edition, Donnie Darko, Complete Fawlty Towers, Training Day, AI and Romeo Is Bleeding.
-TODD
Andrew:
God help us both. We're both making the deal on potential, I saw you needed a quality catcher; I needed pitching. Now I can turn perhaps to a larger deal...
Berm: I think at heart we all have at least the desire to create at one level or another. Mel sketches; I do like what she produces, but she rarely shows them. Myself, I write a bit; just poems, ones I don't think are very good. It's not out of the arrogance of thinking that an audience would think our little attempts at creativity are worth perusal by the vox populi; in my case I sometimes consider it a way to talk to myself, to discuss my myriad apprehensions about my world or my self. I've often found that looking back through these scribblings, I often get a sense of where I am as a person and where I think I'm going; a sense of true progression, my words denoting my evolution as a person. Besides, it beats the hell out of spending a lot of money on therapists.
Bag-O-Scott writes words;
Their syntax matters little:
A vista into mind
Frank,
1) Karen Carpenter, agreed, was a victim of Celene Dion Syndrome, best characterized by a review in the Chicago Tribune: "1,000,000 voice, 10 cent songs."
2) Dennis DeYoung, much as I enjoyed (though not necessariuly admired) his work, was never better than when I saw him as Pilate in "Jesus Christ Superstar." Wierd, eh?
Regards,
Joseph
Dennis DeYoung was a less hip version of Peter Allen. Styx was a punishment for masterbating at age 12 in the 70's.
-------------------------
Karen Carpenter had the voice of an angel. Her choice of songs were bad, but remember the 70's were mostly not much better. She could polish a turd like no other--and in that I give her all my love.
Richard Carpenter cannot be blamed for the songs alone. Karen didn't have to say yes to them. I'm sure she loved them as much as he. B'wanna She No Home is a classic though.
-----------------------------
Did I mention that Dennis DeYoung's hair never moved? Or that he always smiled like a happy child killer?
Notice I'm not fond of the man's work.
--------------------------------
Berman, I heard that Jimi Hendrix might have committed suicide, because Eric Burdon found the note next to his bed.
I actually feel more sorry for Jimi now. All his powerful music used in car commercials and the like. Al Hendrix must of lost his mind. Pity.
Andrew~ That rumble of thunder you hear in the background is a ready-made lightning bolt headed your way, ya turncoat.
::sigh::
L.
David,
You're welcome. As I remember, that fantabulous blurb from Mr. Ellison came in too late for the hardcover, but it will be on the mass market for "American Gods."
Two things:
1) If you ever have the chance to attend a Gaiman singing or reading, do so. A more courtly man you will never meet.
2). "American Gods" was one of the books of the year. Fabulous book.
Regards,
Joseph
Bag-O-Scott: Trade accepted (I don't know if it'll go through though). It's probably not the brightest choice I could make, but what the hell...
Lynn: Aren't you glad I've kept my mouth shut?
-Andrew
This is Johnny-come-lately question for all y'all about truth in art: is truth even a relevant criteria when evaluating art? Do you create with an audience in mind? Or do you do it because whatever it is must come out? If you feel a compulsion to write, or sculpt, or paint, or play music, how much choice do you have in the matter?
Here's an example (and the Ghost of Jimi can confirm this): I watched the A&E Biography of Jimi Hendrix recently. Jimi had a serious jones for the guitar in grammar school, so bad that the guidance counselor called his father and told him that, if Jimi didn't get a guitar soon, he would sustain psychological damage. He NEEDED that guitar. He would have played it whether he did it alone in his room or before 400,000 people at Woodstock, I reckon. Perhaps his art would have been "more true" if no one had heard it. Perhaps he would have lived longer.
Do you ever do art that you know no one will see? Like doodles on a page you're going to toss? Or drawings in the sand? Are they as true as the art you hang up on your walls? Is all art true as long as it comes from the heart of the artist?
I submit:
"'Beauty is truth and truth, beauty,'-- that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
Just to whip some Keats on you to end on a corny note.
Bermanator
Locus's name, the discussion of regional accents, and Lynn's rejoinder all remind me of yet ANOTHER joke:
The hillbilly visited her city cousin for the very first time. Having lived all her life in isolation on the mountain, she was utterly confused by modern ways.
The cousin decided to get some portrait photos made of them, so the two women went to a local studio. As the photographer carried his equipment into the portrait room, the hillbilly pointed and said, "Wut's that?"
"That's a camera," the cousin patiently replied.
"Wut's he dewin' now?"
"He's checking the light."
"And wut's he dewin' NOW?"
"Why," she said, "he's trying to focus."
The hillbilly's eyes widened. "BOTH US?"
Jim, thanks for asking-- It persists. Goebbels was very good at his job. Kids still find the boots and swastikas aesthetically pleasing.I am doing my part to educate on a case-by-case basis. Our school is having an event in late April where kids go to workshops on various educational topics, from local issues to global. I have enlisted a woman to speak who was a Judenkinder-- a child of a Jewish family in Germany, she was smuggled to England and fostered by a British family. Her parents were killed in concentration camps. I plan to have certain students scheduled for this seminar whether they will it or no.
Bermanator
On the LOCUS issue...
The following is from an interview David Cronenberg conducted with Salman Rushdie:
My only experience with that was with John Landis, who is a friend, and the Twilight Zone thing. [On July 23, 1982, a helicopter accident caused the death of actor Vic Morrow and two Vietnamese child actors on the set of John Landis' film Twilight Zone: The Movie.] He and his wife used to worship The New York Times, and suddenly The Times was saying that when the helicopter crashed the first thing John did was to run to each of the cameras, rip the film out of them, and run off and hide for three days. Now he phoned them and said, "The first thing I did after the crash was to try to pull the victims out of the water. There were witnesses to this. The next day I was in court, and the film of the accident was already in custody."
The Times checked this and said, "Yes, you're right, we're wrong." And John said, "So you'll print a retraction?" And they said, "Absolutely not." And he said, "I'll sue you," and The Times said, "We'd welcome the lawsuit, goodbye."
I went to court once with him and his wife and it was like the O.J. Simpson trial. It was an absolute nightmare.
Mrs. Asimov, good luck wherever you are. You're certainly not alone in this.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
P.S. On a lighter note:
Hirsuite? Hirsuite! Hirsuite hirsuite! Hirsuite! Hirsuite hirsuite hirsuite! Hirsuite?! Hirsuite!
Thanks for the nudge, Joseph. Whaddayaknow, there's a rave for _American Gods_ by Harlan Ellison hissownself right on the Home Page! I already dug up an address for Gaiman's U.S. agent in _Contemporary Authors_ over my lunch hour, but you never know whether these things are current. Judging by the Q&A in the FAQ, it'll do.
Jim Davis~ Here's your sign. (Man's never even met me and he's makin' jokes about my bustline. The NOIVE.)
So these heah three southern belles were sittin' around on the veranda one humid August afternoon, sippin' their mint juleps and regaling each other with tales of how they had spent their summer.
Charlotte May starts out by saying, "Well, my husband took me up nawth to yankee country, an' he took me shoppin' and bought me this mink coat that is jes' as pretty as a peach. He even bought me a new Mercedes!"
Daisy Sue just smiles and says, "Well, idnat nice.." in her sweetest, most gentrified voice.
Mary Beth Louise says, "That may be, but my husband took me on a cruise to the Mediterranean. We went shopping in Italy and he even bought me a diamond ring as a comin' home present!"
Daisy Sue just smiles and says, "Well, idnat nice..."
Both Charlotte May and Mary Beth Louise look at Daisy Sue and say in unison, "What did you do with your summer, Daisy Sue?"
Daisy Sue smiles her sweetest, pearl of the south smile and says, "Well, I went to Miss Huckabee's School of Etiquette, and we learned how to say, 'Idnat nice...' instead of 'Fuck you.'"
::pointed look and smile in Jim's direction::
L.
Well, I've offered the first trade of the season to Andrew; not quite a blockbuster, but I'm thinking of one...
Rick: I've used hirsute, defined as "hairy" or "covered in hair". I leave the wife to comment.
Karen Carpenter: Very talented voice, ruined by her producer/brother's horrific middle-of-road tastes. Always wondered what she would do with, say, a Carole King to write for her and a good producer in the studio.
Keith Moon: Listen to "Life with the Moons", "Poetry Cornered" or "University Challenge", all added tracks for the Maximum R&B cd set. You can also find him in "200 Motels", and "That'll Be The Day". My favorite drummer and drunken psychotic.
Alex Jay: The Blue Jays are in first, too. Gods, only 161 games to go. It's in the bag, I tells ya!
Locus Apology: Yep, saw it. Contacted them immediately to cancel my subscription and get a refund, with five or six other friends following suit. Enough said.
Now, if all will excuse, I'm off to watch my Jays.
Bag-O-Scott recalls fondly the day when his coach had to inform him of where to wear his cup...
XANADU;
Nothing stupid about the question at all. In fact there is no set rule that I am aware of. "Y'all" can be used in the plural or in the singular. With the latter is more commonly used by flirtatious or affected southern ladies.
Usage does seems to be different in different areas. My paternal grandmother from Mississippi always said "y'all" whether she was addressing one or many. In Texas "ya'll" is used just as readily as "you all" but I don't know too many who use "you all" for fewer than two people. My grandmother would use it in the singular sense but her speech was just more drawn out and formal in all ways.
"All of y'all" is what we say-- also "all a y'all" or "all y'all." Which means the entire group and not a select few.
The word "y'all" is a great comfort to wandering Southern souls to whom the word instantly connotes warmth and acceptance.
Anybody want to contradict me, please do, I only know of common and personal usage.
Cindy
Rick Wyatt~ As for the accusations of skewing your web hits, I'll have you know not once have I used the words "unshod", "mogart", "dogue de borduex", much less "seven foot eight korean basketball player".
FN outta here, ;)
L.
PS. Revenge sayeth I must do all I can to even further skew your stats, so I share with you some from my own website.
1. digital carrion 2. cambodia average salary 3.carrion recipes 4. cheese and vacuum and contamination 5. coca-cola vendor vendo 6. cows cambodia exploding 7. don throckmorton 8. name for two headed calf 9. orbit.net 10.orlando utilities randy jones 11. penis extension surgery 12. penis feats 13. the two headed calf
14. torrance municipal code 15.vending machine singapore distributor
David,
Don't have a private address, but you can try dropping Mr Gaiman a line through the FAQ feature at neilgaiman.com (great bloger too, by the way - love reading Mr. Gaiman's ruminations).
Regards,
Joseph
Hey, does anybody have a current mailing address for Neil Gaiman? I wanted to send him something I think he might like. Post it to me by private email, please. Failing that, an email address to get a message to him would suffice....
The problem is, Dennis de Young is still alive. But it's pretty easy to imagine him as the Devil...
I thought it was "hirsute." Don't know if "hirsuite" is even a word.
If there is an emodiment of a collective ego more suffused with self-importance and boundless arrogance other than your typical magazine editorial staff, I've yet to see it.
Lurk
BRIAN: That's the beauty of the joke--you can use almost any name you want, and it will still work.
(Let's see: Just then, Dennis de Young walks in, sits behind the grand piano, and says, "Ok, everybody! "Mr. Roboto" at the count of four! One, two, three..." Yep, that works, too.)
Karen Carpenter was a GREAT singer, but her material was, in my opinion, pure-grade treacle. Of course, you could blame her brother for that, if you like...
ON LOCUS: Yeah, that was a pretty lackluster correction/non-apology. But I'd caution everyone against waging a scorched-earth e-mail campaign against Locus. High dudgeon against Charles Brown & Co. may cause a backlash against Harlan and the Asimovs, and that's something no one here wants.
BERMANATOR: How did the Nazi infestation at your school turn out?
RICK: Can we blame Lynn for "the largest titties on the web" hits, as well? (Runs like Holy Hell...)
Xanada,
I was always told (though maybe the defeated Rebs were having some fun with a damnyankee like me) that "y'all" was the singular and "you all" as the plural.
Regards,
Joseph
Seeing as we have several southerners, specifically Texans, in residence - I have a somewhat dopey, lifelong yankee-type question.
I've been told "y'all" is the singular form of the term. eg. "Y'all want a sack?" - asked of an individual shopping for groceries.
I was then told "all y'all" is the correct plural form. eg. "All y'all come on down and visit!" - said to a distant family group. Is this the case, or has an ignorant northerner been taken in?
(I know - it's a stupid question - but sometimes ya just gotta know.)
PRESENTED FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT IN THIS TIME OF CONFUSION OVER GHOSTS, LOCII, AND ACCENTS:
The "My Favorite Webderland Search Hits" list for March 2002! Mind you this is a partial list stretching only back to the website's move to a new server in mid-march. These are selections from the thousand or so search terms people used to hit pages on Webderland. I hope you enjoy them as much as I did.
3: hirsuite
2: book reviews on how the elderly see the image of god
2: seinfeld transcripts
2: unshod
2: mogart
2: vintage concert ticket stubs
2: joe sacco palestine
2: stupendous michael flatley
2: ellisons of corpus christi texas
2: circus song carnival song carny song 1970s
1: commuting earthman mali intensifiers coefficient
1: all scince animations gif photo
1: pentacostal worship photos
1: jimmy the cricket
1: anecdote crates triangular uncles essenize
1: potemkin reservoirs quay unbroken petitioning
1: sky or truisms or reconstruction or damask or tight
1: text guy flipping the bird
1: adaption of white tigers
1: easterner ellison chromium dried siding
1: steely blue panties images
1: physics limrick
1: imelda slum wall photo
1: short and cool rhyming quotes about angels
1: son fuck his mother.com
1: dogue de borduex
1: jungian movie archetypes and reviews on star wars
1: beware of pity
1: gigantasaurus
1: hymen pictures
1: mournful deference portray harlan violins
1: text adventure game rape
1: erich segal love story review book
1: i hate tolkien
1: hirsuite thumbs
1: the powerful katrinka tin toy
1: caught fucking
1: form trihedral agleam argument ellison
1: stretched asshole
1: oriented turring
1: joe pesci answering machine
1: hirsuite women
1: father and son masturbation
1: permanently erasing embarrassing photos
1: 2002 guestbook of sherman house chicago
1: seven foot eight korean basketball player
1: friends caught fucking
1: kriss foot argentine
1: stories about midgets
1: r.l stines real life when he was small
1: largest titties on the web
1: william shatner profanity laced tirade
1: dalian city sex trade
1: growing boob animations gif
1: why i can't find love
1: pimps and accomplishments in the game
1: fucking friends mother
1: ideopathic ice pick head pains
1: vampyre fantasy pics
1: glucose glut lectures notes
1: prince valient hair cut
1: harlan smells like cheese
FYI - "hirsuite" hits come from this letter I posted in 1997:
Date: 15 Jun 97 14:35:20 -0600
Subject: Hirsuite
Hi
when i searched in Yahoo for
+hirsuite and
+women
the web took me to your page unfortunately I don't know how to find where
in all your pages you made reference to such. Please advise
thanks
[deleted]@ij.net
...as for the "fucking" hits, well, I blame Lynn.
Brian - still reads funny to me, and I bet I'm not the only one. Why would you say "ran the story with the following passage included" instead of "ran a story that contained the following" or something less confusing? It strikes me as an effort by Locus to distance themselves from the actual text they WROTE and PRINTED.
Rick, the statement says that Locus "ran the _story_ with the following passage included." That doesn't imply that the statement was in the original book at all.
But Locus really shouldn't just run Dr. Jeppson's letter, which leaves it loking like a mere error, or a difference of opinion where both sides have merit. They should admit their error and apologize to Dr. Jeppson.
For the record, I thought Karen Carpenter was extremely hot, a nice singer, and a decent drummer. If anyone wants to tell jokes that involve really lame rock acts, I'd like to ask y'all to please use Dennis de Young from Styx, who is probably one of the ugliest figures in music I've ever had the displeasure of hearing.
Oh, my DVD purchases this week include _The Third Man_, _The Trial_, and _Night of the Living Dead_. I like to see this as an example of my wide range of tastes. (Other recent purchases are _Wilde_ and _Aguirre, the Wrath of God_.)
DEAR DTS!
LOL!
YOU are ARE a charmer!
So much so that you COULD be a NATIVE Texan.
When I was a kid I spent alot of time in Port Aransas. My father was the only doctor on the island for about a dozen years. So if you got stung by a jellyfish or something more potent you probably met him. He also delivered about a hundred babies in the Victoria area-- he had an office there and still owns the house where he lived in Port Lavaca.
My last name is Jones. Everyone in town knows me and where I live. Frightening huh?
What were you doing in Texas, and how could you ever leave?
yer pal,
Cindy
The LOCUS non-apology at the top of Janet's letter has this:
"...who reveals the situation in the book. Locus Magazine's April issue ran the story with the following passage included: "Asimov reportedly wanted to reveal he had AIDS but was talked out of it at the time by his second wife, Janet Jeppson." The following is a letter from Janet (Jeppson) Asimov."
Is it just me, or does that sound like LOCUS is saying the quoted text appeared in the Asimov book? And thereby making Janet Asimov look like a kook for denying something that appeared in her own book?
Cindy~ The April edition of F&SF has a novelet by Esther M. Friesner, entitled "Just Another Cowboy." A *must* read, just for the vernacular.
I grew up outside of Galveston and it wasn't until I moved to California that I learned my first name only had ONE syllable! I'll never forget the day one of my best friends in school met my dad because I'd forgotten my house keys. She was flabbergasted. "He said 'Y'ALL' to me!"
And for those of you who might care, the word is actually pronounced, "SHEE-it." Two syllables.
L.
CINDY: Honey, I should warn ya that there've been at least two (maybe three) ghosts a-postin'on this here board today (this place is jist crawlin' with ectoplasmic types). Ah'm t'othern -- oneit calls 'imself Strunk-n-White. (Don't know 'bout t'other fellers). 'N Ah diiid live in Texas wunce. Down roun' Corpus, mostly. Although I lived in Awwstin for a spell, too (an' Victoria for a shorter spell). I been fixin' to drop back by here an' ask you 'bout yer last name. See, I wanna send you them purty flowers (any woman calls me darlin' REALLY deserves 'em); an' I got yer address, but no last name. (Them flower people are real sticklers fur names an' such). Norm'ly, I'd jist hop inta muh pick-up an' drive straight thar; but I didn't wanna come off like a 'dillo chargin' through bub war. So if y'all wouldn't mind a-postin that christian name, I'll make shur ya get them roses...baby sister (damn! I'm amblin' right into "Duke" speak).
Yours in love of everything Texas,
DTS
As Charlie pointed out, LOCUS did run a short letter from Dr Jeppson Asimov, with a link so small and out of the way, I had to visually scour the front page before I found it.
Here's what they ran:
http://www.locusmag.com/2002/Issue04/Letter.html
With NO retraction, NO apology, NO sense of accountability, responsibility, or journalistic ethics, and NO fucking class.
Ghost darlin',
This is FASCINATING! You clearly know yer shit when it comes to Hick speak. In FACT I am in awe of your knowledge. Now tell me this, sweet man, have you ever lived in Texas? I certainly hope so as we would not be hesitant to "claim" you.
I was struck by what you said about High and Low Duetch from Germany. I had long wondered why the indigenous residents of the Texas Hill Country speak with such a pronounced drawl. Most are direct descendants of the German immigrants who settled this area during the mid-1800s.
Dispite my own upbringing in Texas; when I first moved here (almost 13 years ago) I had a dog of a time comprehending the local vernacular. I grew up in Austin but in this county I found myself in foreign territory. They would say something to me and I would look at them with furrowed brow- then repeat phonetically what I had clearly heard them say. Thus, when I said, "DESKY DARSK?"-- they would look at me as though I had lost my mind. What they had ACTUALLY said in their own strange tongue was the name "Dusty Durst".
I had to learn phrases that included "tate-nit" which means "took it" and and thuthereednin, which translates, " The other evening".
"Sulled up"-- or " He/she sulled on me" took a great deal of explaination before I caught on to the precise meaning."Sulled" being what a rattlesnake does when it coils tightly and isn't apt to strike. If someone (or more likely some animal) has "sulled" on one, it means they have quit fighting and will now use their dead weight as a passively agressive tool against you in whatever it is you want them to do-- including "load up on the dang trailer", or get through the "dad burned gate".
One of the most endearing terms they use is " SonuvaBITCHES". No amount of cajoling can inspire a Hill Country man to say "Sons of Bitches" they will invariably grin and say,
" Yes MA'AM--that's what ah said, " SonuvaBITCHES". Then they twinkle and you know they have you.
Thank you for the insight, I stand corrected.
I like the hell outa you. You are a treat, Ghost, a real ringtail tooter.
:)
Cindy
Dear Ms. CINDIANAJONES,
I must tell you that Tex Avery's Ghost did, indeed, have his venacular correctly spelled (phonetically speaking, of course). In Texas (as in Germany, where there is high and low Deutch), one finds that the natives speak High Texan (Ah'm jist fixin' to it, ma) or low Texan (Ah'm jest playin' with ya, ma). High Texan,is, of course, the venacular most commonly used from Austin and parts North. Low Texan is spoken in the southern-most regions of the Lone Star State. 'Course, there are some words like "tar" (as in, I wuz gonna get some new tars for muh car) that sound the same state-wide.
Hopin' this finds y'all doin' jist fine,
GoS&W.
Decent joke, Jim.
Reminds me of a story I read about Keith Moon -- a true story. One time he was really depressed because Karen Carpenter received more votes for drummer of the year in the annual Playboy poll than he did. (He should have realized this said more about the voting pool than anyone's drumming.) Finally, he went bashing his set in a frenzy and yelled at the top of his lungs: "I'm the best Keith Moon-type drummer in the world!"
Janet Asimov's letter of correction is posted on the Locus on-line site.
Todd-
One of the most amazing things recently said by Bill Clinton was when he voiced his regret over the Marc Rich pardon because it damaged his (Clinton's) reputation.
Oh.
Yeah. Right.
That was what did it.
Excuse me, but are you fighting over how to NOT properly use the English language?
Just checking. Back to lurking the roadsides.
Illegitimi carborundi non
In the immortal words of my mama, "Y'all are fixin' ta get beat upon."
Signed,
Daughter of a NASA engineer who to this day pronounces barbed wire as "bub war".
L.
GHOST
Yes darlin', that's why I was playin' back.
:)
Cindy
Dearest Cindy,
You know'd we wuz jist playin' when we type-Oed (twice) on the wird vernacular, right? Right?
GoS&W
Dear Ms. CINDIANAJONES,
I must tell you that Tex Avery's Ghost did, indeed, have his venacular correctly spelled (phonetically speaking, of course). In Texas (as in Germany, where there is high and low Deutch), one finds that the natives speak High Texan (Ah'm jist fixin' to it, ma) or low Texan (Ah'm jest playin' with ya, ma). High Texan,is, of course, the venacular most commonly used from Austin and parts North. Low Texan is spoken in the southern-most regions of the Lone Star State. 'Course, there are some words like "tar" (as in, I wuz gonna get some new tars for muh car) that sound the same state-wide.
Hopin' this finds y'all doin' jist fine,
GoS&W.
GHOST!
If you were a mouse I would go to the pound and adopt a CAT.
Your insulting little rendition of "TEX" Avery left me seething. If you are going to attempt a southern-- particularly TEXAS accent you will have to do your homework more thoroughly or be taken for an IDIOT.
You wrote:
"Ah gotta tell ya, Ah jest don't like that anime stuff..."
It ISN'T "JEST", that sounds SO IGNORANT I CRINGED!
It's "jist".
God DAMN, man-- get your facts straight.
Cindy
>Lurk, I forgot, I want Ronald Reagan to die also. <
Wishing people dead, even in jest, is crass. People say a lot of stupid things on this board, myself no exception, but this is just ugliness, and it's not tickling any funny bones.
Frank, you get passes because your own self-loathing is so palpable that one just feels pity for you. But how about this: rather than regaling us all with who is the shithead of the week, how 'bout you put a lid on it, until you can come up with some examples of how your own existence justifies the resources you consume?
Lurk
As I told the Bermanator, this Bingo hick ain't me either. Hey bub, find your own alias. And if you want to be crowned, you need to be torched, first....
Lurk
HEY, SCOTT!
Montreal's still tied for first in the NL East!
(Heh, heh, heh ...)
Jesus, Jimi, and JANIS!
Slide us some soul and fire! Earth needs creative freaks....
Another Hollywood passing, friends. This time it's production designer Richard Sylbert. Read http://www.salon.com/sex/turn_on/2002/04/04/sylbert/index.html if you need to know about him.
Ah gotta tell ya, Ah jest don't like that anime stuff...
Uh...I hope this "Ghost of" fad doesn't catch on...it'll get pretty weird in here...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Here's a chuckle:
Chuck Finley will miss his start for the Cleveland Indians tonight, due to injuries received from a beating he took at the hands of his wife, actress and model Tawny Kitaen.
Jeff Kent might be looking for a date during Finley's trial separation...
We now return the thread to the ghosts
BOS
Voud you morons quit hogging ze line?!?!?!? I am tryink to scare ze shit out of Yassir Arafat!
Just dropping in to mention (not that anyone cares, probably), but "King Bingo" is not me. Not sure if the elision between his/her pseudonym and my city of origin is purposeful, but whatever. It ain't me babe.
Bermanator
That post reminds me of a joke:
After his death, George Harrison's spirit is transported to a gigantic stage. It's covered with all kinds of musical equipment, including guitars, microphones, keyboards, and, at the front, a very large drum set. As Harrison looks on in amazement, all the great dead rock-and-rollers walk in and start setting up to play. There's Louis Jordan strapping on a saxophone; there's Buddy Holly and Robert Johnson tuning up their guitars; there's Sam Cooke adjusting his microphone stand; and so on.
"It's true! It's true!" Harrison cries out to Jimi Hendrix, who's turning a knob on his amp. "There really IS a Rock-and-Roll Heaven, and I'm in the band!"
Hendrix looks confused. "Heaven?" he says.
Just then, Karen Carpenter walks in, sits behind the massive drum set, and calls out, "Ok, everybody! "Close To You" on the count of four! One, two, three..."
To Mrs. Ellison:
If I may step from between the shadows and the light for a moment and answer to your question about scanners: I have a HP ScanJet 5p, hooked up, presently to a HP Pavilion system. Originally it was hooked to an IBM system, but--anyway. It does what I need to do, and with a certain amount of patience and effort I can hook a digital camera up to the whole thing, transfer pictures from the camera to the computer, scan them, cut and paste into a newsletter format (much like 'The Rabbit Hole'), and make for a nifty looking effort.
Now. Here's the kicker: While this does what I need (and odds are good such would serve you will), given HP is trying to destroy itself by way of a certain merger, trying to get any or all of this stuff serviced may prove problematic in the future. When I switched from the aforementioned IBM to the HP system and tried to match all the stuff up, well, ever hear that Johnny Cash song about One Piece At A Time and none of the holes matching up? Yeah, well. After about fifty bazillion phone calls, going without sleep, food, or shower for a week while I was on hold, finally got a polite fellow who directed me to a local whizmonkey who walked me through fixing everything so all works correctly now.
Just my two cents. If you have any further questions or concerns feel free to drop a line to the above e-mail address.
Until next time. . .
Minor update on the most-recent sighting of Harlan's works:
(1) One good citizen, findarticles.com, complied with the DMCA notice.
(2) One doubleplusungood citizen, Gale Group (owned by the lovely people who operate Lexis, the major defendant in Tasini) has not bothered to respond.
I'm sorely tempted to grab someone from the legal department at Thomson and have them write "I will not defy Supreme Court decisions against me" 100 times in paint on the wall. In properly declined Latin.
Hey, man, me and Moon and McCartney were just jammin'; yeah Paul's really dead, with Mama Cass y'know, getting a real groove. All of a sudden, here comes Nixon, think he pissed off Peter again with his demands to get rid of the Jewish cats, and he starts up on me about "Purple Haze". He thinks he can get me to start playing that Sinatara shit, all that scobby dooby shit comes out sounding real shitty through my petals. Keith Moon, dig, he starts to get real pissed and pushes Nixon over onto one of the witches brew pots (the explosions really blow the Big Guy's mind when He takes in one of our gigs: gotta remember to get Morrison to jam next week). Well, blammo! Boom! The old fart's bermuda shorts erupt in flames, and he starts freaking out, dig? Me and Moon and McCartney, we just sat there, laughing our asses off. Jesus stops by with a jug of homebrew and some very nice grass and seeing ol' Tricky Dick dammmed near made him spill the brew, dig?
Jesus is one hell of a harmonica player; John Lennon is so pissed jealous.
Todd, wondering what you are doing to get the religious right out of the GOP. Enter the temple, my friend, you will not like what you see.
I do think Hillary has to earn an evil merit badge before being consigned to the fires of hell. Hillary did take Enron money--which is not a surprise, being that her pro-Corporate bias is legendary--But I do think death is a bit harsh. Todd, I know you can find someone a bit more evil to vent your spleen on. Hillary has yet to kill anyone--But I guess we should all give her time.
Of coarse Billy should be in jail for his crimes. Not death, jail. See, remember, I am also a Humanist.
Lynn:
obviously, I'd be interested, at least :). And proceeds could go to KICK, if that's still necessary and/or possible, so people would have a reason to dish out a few bucks.
I hope Hillary Clinton would drop dead BEFORE she has a chance to do something really dangerous......see, I'm all for killing them BEFORE it's too late.
As for BillyBoy, ahhhh, let 'im live. He's such a sweet little goofball with nothing to do now except buy more puppy dogs and give whiney interviews to Newsweek.
To summarize: Hillary, die. Bill, stay true to your hilarious self.
Boy, I love when these innocent strings (Star Trek music) turn into bitter bile-tossing!
-TODD
Lurk, I forgot, I want Ronald Reagan to die also. Snicker.
>Unfortunately, the lyric makes the song almost unsingable (unbearable to sing or hear) EXCEPT as a novelty tune<
Not totally. This one was part of our regular set, and it was a popular one for us in Europe, especially Finland. We were asked to do it again as an encore one night at The Groovy, a jazz club in Helsinki. That was back in the mid-80s, children.
I sang it while playing piano, simply and seriously. You find that it does have a bit of goofy-60s panache if the mood of the crowd is right.
Hear Roddenberry had one serious bong. Loaded up for his own
personal Star Trek.
R.W.
>Nixon was a pathetic degenerate. He had a lot in common with another sick minded racist President: Teddy Roosevelt. The only problem I have now is that Kissinger isn't joining tricky Dick in the manure pile afterworld.<
Spread the love, Frank. You just have so much to give.
Asimov. Looks down in shame.
Veddy interrestingk!
I honestly didn't bring the words to "Star Trek" as an excuse for people to start in on devouring Rodenberry's carcass. I only brought it up because it BLEW MY MIND that there were lyrics to this thing. Kitschy, campy, and as someone pointed out, UTERRLY RIDICULOUS lyrics. My husband and I had a blast with them, man! I sat down and played it at the piano. As music (Courage's work) it's a fantastic composition based on creative use of chromaticism, chromatic scales and oblique approaches to harmonic function. It works as a popular theme and also as a creative artistic gem. It's a challenge to sing and a beautiful snippet of music when sung correctly. Playing on it presents a new set of harmonic and melodic construction to jazz guys who grow weary of "Rhythm Changes" and the blues.
Enter the lyric. I'm not really concerned with whether Rodenberry was a crook, though I find it interesting. But Courage is in good company. Duke Ellington's manager did the same thing to him.
Unfortunately, the lyric makes the song almost unsingable (unbearable to sing or hear) EXCEPT as a novelty tune. It's not out of the question that I'll learn and use this song but I could never give it a SERIOUS reading!
My husband and I wondered if the "love a starwoman teaches" has anything to do with the green bitch....
Bob Dole blubberin at Nixon's funeral was pathetic. Good to see Bobby has a heart, but this kind of drama should be put aside for real victims. Nixon was a pathetic degenerate. He had a lot in common with another sick minded racist President: Teddy Roosevelt. The only problem I have now is that Kissinger isn't joining tricky Dick in the manure pile afterworld.
---------------------------
By the way, Isaac Asmimov's two Bible commentaries are out of this world.
------------------------------
Paul Kurtz also got under my skin when he backed the idiotic rantings of the late, Steve Allen--a man who believed that media was destroying morality--and that some form of censorship was in order.
MY BOSS tells me I should smile and turn the other cheek when confronted by a particularly aggressive person here at work.
However, I think to myself...what would Harlan do?
Hey, me and Tricky Dick are playing cards RIGHT NOW, and laughing at all the rest of you, grinding out your 8-hr days and getting all hot in the keyboard
The babes here are out of control. Heaven IS a place where nothing ever happens, said the Talking Heads....that's right, nothing but titties and beer, baby, all day and all night long. Uncle Miltie just arrived, and he's positively ga-ga over the carnality of it all.
Yeah, I screwed Courage. So what, he was a whining putz. You'd a done the same, bright boys, if you could a thought of the show in the first place, which none of you could have. So back to your oh-so-logical analysis of why I'm a creep...I'll think about you all, not, next time big Jayne M comes and sits on my lap.
My week beat your year even then, and now, it's infinity and beyond. I'm a shade, but I've got it made. Later, finger-pointers.
Rick, this is just gravy, but I'm getting back comments that "Locus" only copied what someone there read in the "New York Post". Of course, anyone dumb enough to quote anything from the "New York Post" deserves anything they get, but that's the apologist history. Never mind that someone at "Locus" should have CHECKED WITH THE PARTIES INVOLVED INSTEAD OF JUST REPRINTING IT, but that's how we end up with people thinking that the Saturn Awards have any relevance, too.
Oh, and Brian, I envy you in living anywhere where nobody offers the "let's not speak ill of the dead" defense for Nixon. I'm trapped in Dallas, and the only times this city stops emulating "Dawn of the Dead" is when it starts emulating "Triumph of the Will". I hear both "you shouldn't speak ill of the dead" and "oh, he didn't do anything that any other President didn't do" at least once a week from my fellow residents, especially from those who went out of their way to castigate Clinton. I guess pissing on the Constitution was a lesser crime than getting blowjobs from an intern (and considering the crowds of right-wingers here who came to our local Borders to see Monica Lewinsky when she was signing copies of her autobio, they were thanking her for subversion well done).
I thought Harlan was pretty clear that Janet was upset over the report that she talked Isaac out of telling people he had AIDS. He quoted the phrase "talked out of it by his wife, Janet Jeppson" from the LOCUS piece.
If you're looking for a truthful statement, how about "Janet didn't talk Isaac out of revealing he had AIDS." I'm not sure we need to replace something that didn't happen with something that did.
Thanks to everyone who helped in my quest to understand more about the HUAC hearings and the Hollywood Ten. If you haven't seen it there's a great piece of propaganda that's very pro Hollywood Ten on the Criterion DVD of Spartacus. Good stuff.
And to Harlan,
I told the future Mrs. about my offer for you to serve as Best Man and I showed her your reply. Safe to say she doesn't think it would be cost effective either (no matter how much fun it might be) since we have enough bills pertaining to the wedding and building a house and all. She did, however, think that your reply was very sweet indeed and she also wanted me to add that she liked the book of yours I bought for her a year or so back. It's the French version of Strange Wine (I can't remember the title and you really don't want me to try to tangle with French).
Much thanks to all,
Tony Adams
p.s. I sent your call to arms on Asimov out to the guy who runs the Zentertainment website (he also sends out an emailer which goes to hundreds of thousands of people every week) which is very genre dedicated. We'll see what he does with it.
Seeking clarification on the Locus email campaign:
What exactly am I striving to debunk? Not the story of Isaac Asimov contracting HIV/AIDS from a blood transfusion, but the rumor-stated-as-fact in Locus that Asimov, on his deathbed, wanted to diclose his affliction, but his wife Janet vetoed his dying wish? If that's wrong, please correct me.
And what is the truthful statement I want people to understand -- that Isaac did not want to tell people he had AIDS, or that Janet did not prevent him from making a statement, but he passed before he could? Again, if I'm wrong in this assumption, please correct me.
Just wanting to be clear...
1. "Ghost of Roddenberry" -- ouch. That was painful. Funny, but painful.
2. For all this talk about Roddenberry's insertion of lyrics onto Alexander Courage's Star Trek theme (and his motives for doing it), I did need to make one statement to put it in context:
STILL not as gawdawful bad as "Faith of the Heart"...
(and at least GR wrote the lyrics himself FOR his creation, as opposed to borrowing Diane Warren's schlocky power ballad, which was first used in the saoundtrack for Patch Adams)
Lurk~ No, the Rabbit Hole has privileged information only available to subscribers. (Can you guess I've suggested that already?)
L.
Poor Ron Wood. Talented bassist, raucous guitarist, did fine work with Jeff Beck, Rod Stewart, and the Faces--and now he's little more than a hired hand on Mick/Keith's plantation. (Though they may allow him to use one of the mansion's bathrooms on occasion.)
Bowie doesn't do drugs anymore. Well, except for those extracts of rhino pineal gland that keep him eternally young.
Hey, I need more royalty checks....time for Next Gen lyrics:
Star-Trek the Next Generation
with Captain Picard and his mahvelous crew
Lea-ding a new federation
Fighting the Romulans, Borg...even the Q
With Number One, that old son of a gun
Commander Data's Pinocchio
Crusher and Troi, they take care of the boys
Worf and Geordi make it so (ho, ho)
Come, on a grand exploration....
Sample issues of Rabbit Hole could go on the website...could drum up subscriptions for new ones.
>And he later created a performance of the song with the lyrics to cement his claim on the royalties.<
Sung by his ex-squeeze Nichelle Nichols, from her hit album "Uhura Sings!" if memory serves....
Think Evil Gene was bad...Jagger/Richards Inc. didn't make Ron Wood a full partner in the Stones until 1990...almost fifteen years of service in the band at union rates, mates. I hear Bowie is the same...you, the screaming leads guitarist, get your guild-established hourly when on tour, and hands off his drugs...
What the Hell IS the "strange love a star-woman teaches"? Is that like something out of a Philip Jose Farmer story?
Gunter~
::ROFL:: I think it's a great idea. Susan however, might say something about "talking white noise". It could be done fairly cheap, but how much of a market do you think there would be? Say, $2.50 a cd to manufacture (for a run of 500, not including liner printing. Don't worry, we can master it for free. ), $20 a piece to sell. How many issues of the Rabbit Hole are there and how many people would be interested in having an archive on CD?
L.
Random idea, since Susan Ellison has been talking about getting a scanner...
...wouldn't it be nice to have a CD-ROM with all the issues of Rabbit Hole published so far on it? They could be easily converted to, say, PDF or DjVu, which works on a large number of platforms, and take up less shelf space (ok, that's not a major point, but at least they'd never yellow or get torn/lost/coffeestained).
Any thoughts?
XANADU: Thanks for clearing me up. Of course, sometimes it's tricky for me to catch up to long threads that I wasn't involved in beforehand. That's the thing about the internet...any news that's existed longer than ten minutes is immediately 'old news.'
Frankly, I thought Harlan's essay in 'The City on the Edge of Forever' was enough to fry the Roddenberry bloodline all the way back to the Cro-Magnon era...
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Re Roddenberry. Look, gang, what is this stuff about going easy on the guy because he's dead? I can understand not _making shit up_ about dead people, because they're not alive to respond to lies and libels. But if what they did is part of the public record, well-attested to by others, and not without some continuing interest, they _why not_ mention it?
After all, when they release some new batch of Nixon tapes, which reveal to the world exactly what kind of despicable, evil, sewer-minded troglodyte we HAD as President, we don't hear much of this "let's not speak ill of the dead" stuff. (Except from William Safire, maybe.)
LW - The theft of royalties re:the theme is old news - just look at the sources Rick cited - some of them are actual _books_. But cookie's encounter with them is new - we didn't bring this up just to drag the honor of the man through the mud one more time, we responded to cookie's disgust about the _quality_ of the lyrics by adding the historic injustice they caused for the guy who wrote the music. This is called "putting it in context".
Not only do they stink as lyrics - they robbed a man of half of his earnings by existing. If Roddenbury was a stand-up guy, forced to do this only at a network contractual whim, never intending to have those lyrics performed, he should have signed over his half of the royalties to Courage in the beginning.
But he didn't.
And he later created a performance of the song with the lyrics to cement his claim on the royalties.
I resign myself to the bureaucratic machine. The deciding factor was the fact that she can afford to drive a really nice car, but not get insurance. I'm sure her daughter has had the car insured, and y'know, fuckit. I pay through the nose for insurance, why shouldn't she? I hate this part of urban living.
Cindy~ Thanks for the kind thoughts. I know that driving in LA means having X number of accidents in Y number of hours on the road. So every time its a fender bender, I am grateful for the fact that no one got hurt.
Not really happy about it,
L.
HARLAN ELLISON: Gotcha, Harlan. I'm already underway to spreading the word to in and outside the net...here's hoping Charlie goes by his word.
GENE RODDENBERRY: Aw, c'mon, fellas...the guy's long gone, and his creation is dying as it is. Let the poor dope rest in peace.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
P.S. On the 'lyrics' to the theme tune. As far as I know Roddenberry was obligated under network contract to supply some actual 'sing-along' with the music we're already familiar with. He wrote the words,all right, but he never put 'em in.
I didn't know the guy. I've heard stories from a lot of people about how horrible he was to them, but most of these stories were told after GR's death.
I mean, if Courage entered a "handshake deal" with GR for the lyrics which gave him half the royalties...is it GR's fault he collected? A Serious, High-Calibre Dick Move? Oh yes. But apparently more than GR determined the claim was legal.
It's all contracts and terms and clauses in the land of technicolor illusions and sugar-coated happiness, isn't it? I mean, lamps aren't lit without a Union crew. Words aren't changed without a contract. Promises don't mean shit unless the verbal is witnessed or the written is notarized, right?
Do we blame the lion for tearing apart his meal? No, I say... It is a system of rules that need followed to make sure everyone gets a fair share of bloodied meat.
I turn it over to you to spot the sarcasm.
(the last few eye-opening weeks have made me a little bitter about such topics... $500 and 10% dues indeed.)
If I knew I was in the wrong, risked a moving violation that may or may not take my license (not to mention any additional penalties for having kids in the car), *I* would become the sweetest elderly black woman you'd ever meet.
That's why God invented insurance companies. Mistakes were made, risks were taken. You did nothing. Sorry, but you can give the woman a bit before you saw her leg off.
Sound cruel? A friend of mine accidentally creased an inch of a door on a new Caddy with the chrome door handle on her Dodge Dart. She didn't want to go through the insurance company and wanted to settle what she thought was a minor problem. In fact she offered the services of a good body shop at her expense ($50-$100). The "offended party" had the door replaced at a dealer for $600 and sent her the bill, threatening to sue her if she didn't cough it up. So, you CAN be nice if you want to resolve it, but I wouldn't count on being treated well in return.
Lurk-
Just in case you weren't WHOLLY sincere in your ponderings about how evil men find time to fuck their wives, here's a link to the snopes.com urban legend page:
http://www.snopes2.com/radiotv/tv/trek1.htm
"Courage protested in vain that although the arrangement may have been legal, it was unethical: Roddenberry's lyrics added nothing to the value of the music and were created for no reason other than to usurp half the composer's performance royalties. An unsympathetic Roddenberry proclaimed, "Hey, I have to get some money somewhere. I'm sure not going to get it out of the profits of Star Trek."
The page's references:
Engel, Joel. Gene Roddenberry: The Myth and the Man Behind Star Trek.
New York: Hyperion, 1994. ISBN 0-7868-6004-9 (pp. 114-115).
Solow, Herbert F. and Robert H. Justman. Inside Star Trek: The Real Story.
New York: Pocket Books, 1996. ISBN 0-671-00974-5 (pp. 56-57, 178-185).
Whitfield, Stephen E. The Making of Star Trek.
New York: Ballantine Books, 1968. ISBN 0-345-34019-1 (p. 7).
Or maybe this page would help:
http://www.fullyarticulated.com/TrekTrueStory.html
"Particularly shameful was his addition of "lyrics" to Alexander Courage's stirring title music. Adding couplets like "I know he'll find in star clustered reaches/ Love strange, love a star woman teaches" did more than simply further elucidate Roddenberry's women-as-accessory view of the cosmos; it co-opted for him a full HALF of Courage's royalty."
More Roddenberry fun that mentions the lyrics thingie:
http://www.cm.nu/~shane/lists/rec.arts.startrek.misc/2000-06/0079.html
Or maybe you'd like this one, from "teletronic":
http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.hulse/themes.htm
"But his relationship with Roddenberry soured when the "Star Trek" creator wrote lyrics to the musical piece ("Beyond the rim of the star-light/My love is wand'ring in star-flight"). The words have seldom been performed, but it allowed Roddenberry to take 50-percent of Courage's royalties for the song"
The theme story is also referenced in the print book TV's BIGGEST HITS: THE STORY OF TELEVISION THEMES FROM "DRAGNET" TO "FRIENDS" by Jon Burlingame, in case you wanted a non-Star Trek print reference.
Of course, rather than check these out, you could always continue to hold your hands firmly over your ears while you scream "LALALALALALALALA" at the top of your lungs...
Lynn...was an officer called to the site, and did he/she issue a ticket?
Sounds like no, but you should call your insurance company anyway, pronto. Let them take care of this, that's what they're paid for.
The little old lady, sweet she may be, is probably getting a little too old to be driving in L.A. Especially if she's too cheap/poor to pay for car insurance. Do everyone a favor and help get her off the road, before she runs over someone's kid.
--Lurk
Good Morning all. Such happy clean-scrubbed faces, all bright eyed and bushy tailed.
Lynn: Like it or not, you need to either get her to pay for the accident, or file an insurance claim promptly. That sounds so heartless and cruel, but it makes good sense. Here in Canada (I don't know where you are) your premiums usually increase for accidents you don't report quickly to the company.
Worse is potential lawsuits. I know, she was a nice elderly lady, but even nice elderly ladies can fire off a suit and cost you no ends of hassles with your insurance company. Having the documentation that proves fault is a good idea.
Again, I know it seems heartless, but that's the way it is. somebody's got to cover the costs of fixing your vehicle; it should be the pwerson who was responsible for the damage.
Love Yas, Melissa
>The sheet music goes in for copyright, it comes back with those words and Roddenberry getting half the royalties.<
Oh, that evil Gene again! Just when you thought it was safe to reflect calmly on the thing that was Star Trek, here comes another tale of his heinous depredations on anyone creative within his sight. How busy this man was at his evil practice, we must aver! Between shafting composers, pawing starlets, bowlderizing scripts, and ventilating his always errant opinions and misrememberances at conventions filled with hapless fools, how did he make time for Majel?
Lynn - I have no idea of laws outside of my state - but in New York - the owner of a car purchases insurance on the CAR - regardless of the driver. (Granted, regular drivers have to be listed, and underage drivers add a surcharge - but there is almost always a clause stating that an authorized guest driver is covered, too)
Second - If you put the claim in to your insurance company - tell them you have an immediate need - most reputable insurers will issue a check fairly quickly, without a lot of hassle. But, (you knew there had to be one, didn't you), by putting in a claim - they will examine the damage to your car, weigh the cost to fix it against the book value - and if it comes back wanting - they total your car, pay it off - and TAKE it. (You can buy it back - usually at some fraction of the payout price - but that's all the money you're gonna get for it, so make the rest stretch.)
If you don't get totalled - they hand you your check, and you sign a piece of paper releasing all interest in the case. THEY now contact the other party to get their money back. If there's a problem, you could get called on to testify in court, but that's unusual, since most companies have agreements regarding this kind of thing. If, for some reason, the other party pays you off - you are now required to reimburse your insurance company from that up to the amount of their payout.
In any case, the first step in all this is three estimates of repair. (It may just be New York again, but prepare to be staggered by the cost) If you want to be nice - call up the lady directly and ask her to pay first, or the owner of the car - if they refuse - then go to your insurance company. You have a right to be made whole from this damage, don't let an overly kind heart get you taken. (Even grandmotherly types can be scam artists.)
This is New York, your mileage may vary.
The lyrics to the "Star Trek" theme have been at the front of "The Making of Star Trek" since the first printing. I'm supposing this is because Roddenberry was especially proud of them. Or something.
Jon -
"My love has wings / slender feathered things / with grace in upswept curve and tapered tip…"
And yet, somehow, I cannot for the life of me remember to take out the garbage...
Bleah. Just finished I. ASIMOV with teary eyes.
The ending sucks.
But it is an end, however earlier than we may have wished it to be, that came with love. And the idea of that love, or even of the subject and giver of that love being recklessly tarnished ... that enrages me no end.
No words right now; just a white-hot anger.
HARLAN: I have just reposted your message on the newsgroups misc.writing, rec.arts.sf.written, and rec.arts.sf.composition, where it will reach a good deal of people (I've no clue how many people "lurk" in the groups), including MANY top-flight sf/f authors and editors (some of the regulars include the Nielsen Haydens, Lawrence watt-Evans, Lois McMaster Bujold, Mary Gentle, and I could go on ...)
I swear--unless this is retracted in a BIG way, with apology, I will never buy LOCUS again--and I pick it up every month as it is.
And--shite. I posted it verbatim, including the more "editorial" comments. I could cancel the messages, but most servers, after having to deal with rogue "cancelbots" wreaking havoc on newsgroups, do not accept cancels, so it would still show up to most readers.
I'm a moron sometimes ...
Still, looking over the comments again, it doesn;'t seem TOO inflammatory--and certainly not to the levels of vociferous denunciation for which you have a reputation ...
(Yes, I'm trying to cover, damnit)
To Peter, re scanners. You're right, tho most scanners available today are, frankly, more than enough for most non-pro printing needs. Only reason to go beyond the current "average" specs is if you're doing layout for Wired magazine.
Re the Star Trek lyrics. I recall hearing that Alexander Courage had no idea there were words to the song. The sheet music goes in for copyright, it comes back with those words and Roddenberry getting half the royalties.
To Heather Lovatt, re sober sex versus beery sex. Beery sex is nice, but it gets me gassy. Anyway, I'm fonder of herbal enhancements. They seem to contribute to that immersive, oceanic feeling, where the sound of her heartbeat merges with the songs of galaxies.
Damn you, cookie. I've spent 15 years trying to get those damn words of my head and now they're back in again.
Oh, yes, and my love has wings, slender something things...
Feathered thing?
Aaaauuuugggghh.
Jon
Ok, how many people read Cookie's post, and then sang the STAR TREK theme with those DEEPLY RIDICULOUS lyrics? (Raises hand.)
Cookie, you pull this off, and you may just be the greatest singer alive.
frikkin' Kraist!
I'm lookin' through this stupid commercial fakebook for material for next Friday's show ("Hollywood's Most Memorable Songs." Sounds like a fuckin' lecture not a show!) and I come across the Star Trek theme with "lyric" (I use that term loosely) by Gene Roddenberry.
Art? Entertainment? Schlock???
Yeegads! None of the above (well, maybe schlock):
Here it is for your edification, stupefication, and general guffaws:
THEME FROM STAR TREK
from the Paramount Television Series STAR TREK
Words by Gene Rodenberry
Music by Alexander Courage
copyright 1966 Bruin Music Co. (go ahead, pay 'em the $.08 royalty owed to them by ASCAP or BMI. This is the only copy I intend to forward and I got eight cents in my purse):
"'Beyond the rim of the starlight
My love is wand'ring in starflight
I know he'll find in star-clustered reaches
Love, strange love a star-woman teaches
I know his journey ends never
His Star Trek will go on forever
But tell him while he wanders his starry sea
Rememeber, remember me"
I kid you not. It's 4/2 not 4/1. I found this in THIS IS THE ULTIMATE FAKEBOOK, 3rd ed. Hal Leonard Corporation. No apparent date. ISBN 0-7935-2939-5
Lynn,
Your initial anger was understandable, but I'm glad you were kind to the little old grandmother.
Tonight there was a wreck in my little town. Local teenagers. One of the volunteer firefighters, the first on the scene, realized that one of the victims was his daughter. She's 16 or 17, a high school student, works in a local convenience store. My 14 year old son had made the comment about a week ago that it was criminal for a girl that looked like that to be working in a place like The Short Stop.
They hauled her and another kid out in separate helicopters. We don't have any hospital here. It's 100 miles to one that would have the capability to deal with life threatening injuries.
I guess what I'm sayin' is I'm glad you're okay. I'm glad it was a little damaged metal and a dangling mirror. You are a sweet girl and I am grateful that you are unscathed by the incident.
I'll bet that Granny thinks twice about driving without insurance again.
Cindy
Susan,
If you're using a PC, fine and dandy - but I'm in Mac installation hell with a Epson Photo 1650 right now. Might be just a crummy scanner that needs to be replaced, but the documentation for Macs is crummy is hell. Just my two cents.
Regards,
Joseph
RICK: Got your e-mail. Yeah, you're probably right. In any case, as I indicated in my later message, it's too late to do anything about it...
LYNN: Or, said old lady (or her daughter) could pay to fix your car out of her own pocket, without the insurance companies getting involved. After all, SHE caused the accident, so you'd be perfectly within your rights to file a claim.
BRIAN: Thanks. I think you're, um, full of really good crap, too. I LOVED that exerpt from the Robert Hughes book; I've always believed that most modern art is self-congratulatory back-slapping that will date quicker than yesterday's papers.
Susan -
I swear by the HP 6100 and 4c scanners...workhorses (used the 4c for over 5 years without so much as a glitch) which are available for around $100 refurbed.
Of course, I'll be happy to have those items scanned at Kinko's free of charge for the next issue. Just tell me which of the sixty million branches out there you use and I'll make arrangements.
Humble dirt merchant am I. :)
Jay
So I have a moral dilemma, that isn't really big on the scale of quandries, but it's driving me just about nuts right now.
I got hit on the way home from work today. By an uninsured driver driving a nicer car than me. A much nicer car. My '86 Nissan Maxima with 191,000 miles on it got creased down the driver's side from the door handle all the way to the headlight, removing my mirror in the process. All it did was rub some paint off her 2000 Toyota Sienna mini-van. She changed lanes in the middle of a two lane turn, from inside to outside. Needless to say, I was in the outside lane, laying on my horn, which she ignored as referential to her at that point and time. That is until she felt the crunch.
So my dilemma? After having had a van bumper take my mirror off mere inches from my face, I get out all steamed because the %*&$&@ crossed the solid white line into my lane... And she's a little old black lady driving her grandkids home from .. I dunno where from, but she's driving her daughter's car and she doesn't have insurance, she's not even FROM this state.
...
I promptly calmed my rattled ass down and apologized, explaining that while, yes, she didn't see me, that she had crossed into the other lane of a two-lane turn..and scared the beejeezus outta me. That I drive this car as a beater and all I really want is someone to pay to fix the damn mirror. This was before I saw just how bad she creased the driver's side door. What can I say, it still closes. It just took the five or six hundred I had in trade-in value and flushed it down the toilet.
Now my dad is saying turn it into the insurance and let them handle it. No fault, uninsured driver, yadda yadda. My thinking is, A) I don't have the time to put up with this bullshit. Not the time it'd take to fix my car or to fight with the insurance; and B) She really was a nice little old lady and even if it was her fault she hit me, it wasn't like it was personal.
Tomorrow I walk out to my car and I try to drive to work with a side mirror dangling by an electric cord. And I try to decide whether or not to call the insurance and turn in a little old lady for driving without insurance.
::sigh::
L.
Susan,
A decent scanner for what you want to do should cost no more than $99 and maybe even closer to $79. Check brand names like Microtek, HP, Epson, and Umax. You probably want one that will allow you to scan at the touch of a button, and comes with simple to use photo editing software to do things like remove red-eye, brighten up the picture, adjust the contrast.
A sales person may try to confuse you with talk of resolution or color depth. What you want (and numbers are helpful for fending off overzealous sales people) is a scanner that has a max resolution of 600x1200 DPI (dots per inch, of which most printers will print 300, so you don't need to go beyond that) with a color depth of at least 32 bit (which is a standard color depth for monitors, and is actually millions of colors). Most scanners will say 42, or 48. That's fine, but you rarely use more than 32 bit.
I hope this helps, if even a little.
---Peter
I was standing at the cash register tonight and a woman stepped up to pay for her food. She was wearing some kind of fragrance. I really liked it--which is odd, as I'm not a 'fragrance' type and generally when you can smell a person's perfume as completely as I did at that moment, USUALLY, you think, "Why do women wear so much perfume?"
But it didn't hit me that way. I took a deep breath of it. It just 'filled me up' in a wonderful sorta way and made me smile.
I commented to the woman as she paid for her food and she told me it was some kind of oil. She also said, "I don't really NOTICE it."
I laughed.
She said, "Someone once told me that when you find a fragrance that suits you (that really WORKS for you or obviously expresses what you truly want to express--MY words are the parenthetical ones)...you really don't notice how wonderful it is.
"But other people do," she said.
Maybe, that's just like when you write something that you don't think is so special. But someone ELSE does. Cos they see the real YOU in what you write. (Whereas YOU, knowing yourself rather intimately--we hope--don't find it so surprising.)
--------------------------
Write what you want. Show it to ten people. Then ignore their responses and write some more. The sweats you go through just SHOWING them your stuff will be nutritious enough for your growth--you worry yourself to death about what they might say and you start looking at your work more critically. Hell, half the time, it isn't ever what they SAY that helps you grow, it's just going through the process of being willing to reveal what you write--then going back and 'fixing' it.
------------------------
It's great to think some editor of some magazine--who, by the way, has his OWN agenda. (Hell, he wants what he wants in HIS magazine. That makes sense that he'd be WANTING what he WANTS, from you.)--is the great buddha of knowing of all you could possibly create and, if you want, you can go hang on his sleeve and probably create some pretty neat stuff.
If that's all you wanted out of writing, that is.
On the other hand, if you cross the street and stick your finger in a mudpie, you have yet ANOTHER view on what to do.
I'm planning to stick my finger in as many mudpies as I can find. Having someone love me (my stuff) is all well and good. (I realize it increases the chances of me making a living at this too but)..I plan to make my own sort of mudpies.
Heather
>>But there's one joy which seems just a little out of my grasp. It almost comes from those moments when I'm outlining things, and I'm trying to work out some problem, and I come up with something that actually comes close to surprising me. That's one frustration; I can't seem to surprise _myself_ very often. When I come up with an idea, I know exactly _how_ I thought of it, and I'm also aware of what things I've read or seen or heard that have contributed to it. It's very frustrating, because I can get this surprise from other writers... but I have no idea whether the stuff I do can give that same sense of surprise to anyone else.
Two things. First: stop editing yourself, while you write. That's PARTLY what this self-judging of what you create, sounds like. There are two parts to writing: writing it out.... flowing along in high head gear, all the laces flapping as you run. And then, there's "editing"--I'm using that in a much broader sense than checking for typos. Don't start with editing; you'll never get off the ground. Asimov mentioned "writing over his head." I like that phrase. Shoot for that. Never MIND how you got there.
Never MIND. (Look closely at those two words.)
Which would you prefer: Having sex while being cold sober, with a checklist of moves on the nightstand beside you?..or..having sex when you've had just enough beer for a buzz but not enough to lose your erection? To me, in some ways, writing should be like sex--preference TWO, that is. Send the dude in the tweed suit walking. Take off your clothes and revel in it, hmm?
Second: I recently read something by both Asimov and King. They BOTH admitted they are, at times, no proper judges of their own work. King was talking about the O. Henry award winning "The man in the black suit." Asimov was speaking, in general, about the work he did.
If THEY can't always judge their work critically--they just do what they do and have done with--then you really shouldn't worry.
(Just my opinion. Who else's would it be, hmm?)
Thing is (the ONLY thing, in my view) did you have a ball writing it?
Asimov once spoke of striving for Nirvana...Heaven. Then he realized, while writing, he was IN heaven.
I'd settle for that, wouldn't you?
Heather
RICK: Check your e-mail.
A quick note on art:
To me, good art has layers. If it simply preaches the artist's version of THE TRUTH, then it's probably dry and dull, which is not good art.
The outer layer may be an entertaining chocolate coating. Peel a layer, and there's the author's point of view on the world, a "truth". He or she may not even know they're doing it. Their point of view is going to be there. Even a work that is utterly, nakedly honest about what the artist is feeling still will have esthetic layers that entertain and engage. Van Gogh stripped his soul bare in his paintings, putting raw color and jabbing brush strokes on the canvas, yet the slashes and swirls of color not only reveal what he was feeling when he created, say, Starry Night, or his many still lifes of flowers, but also had an esthetic style that attracted the eye, and shimmered under the wandering gaze. You can tell I like Van Gogh.
That's also why I like writers like Harlan, who does the same thing with words. I love it when someone like Harlan Ellison or Elmore Leonard write a phrase or sentence that I roll around in my mind like a nice chocolate. I also love it when a work will linger in my mind like an afterimage, changing shape and color as it burns inside.
Layers. That's art.
To me, that is.
Gotta go now, Harlan's lit the bat signal, and I've got to fly.
Chuck
Mrs. Ellison:
Scotty and I purchased the Canon CanoScan FB630U for $170 Canadian; I figure that should work out to $99 US, or fifty cents, depending on whether April Foolers decide to cause a run on our dollar with some nonsense about our Finance Minister retiring (true story!). The scanner was easy to install and operate. We've tested the pictures we've sent in attachments, and the clarity of the images are fine.
Love to All, Melissa
To Susan, re scanners. Most of the scanners out there on the market for less than $300 will do a perfectly decent job for you. I own a Microtek E3 that's several years old, so I can vouch for Microteks, at least. If you're concerned about getting something really technically clunky, here's what I'd suggest.
1. If you're just going to use it for photos, get a flatbed scanner. They're much better to use for photographs than those sheet-feed things.
2. Check to see what connections you have on your computer before you buy. You don't want to buy a scanner that uses a SCSI port, and find that you don't have a SCSI port on your computer. You can find scanners that use the parallel (printer) port, SCSI ports, and those new USB ports. Look in back, see what you've got open, and use it.
3. If you want to put the images into the newsletter, you'll need decent image-editing software. Most scanners come with decent photo-editing programs (Microtek's Ulead Photoimpact is decent). You will have to teach yourself the basics of cropping, enhancing, and resampling to improve the image quality, and the like, but it's not hard.
4. A guy named Wayne Fulton runs a very good site on scanner know-how, at http://www.scantips.com/. Have a look.
5. If you ever want to use your scanner for storing documents, I strongly recommend using Adobe Acrobat for the job.
HARLAN: Don't fret overmuch. I POLITELY asked the folks at Locus Online IF it was possible to post something on the website ahead of the print retraction. I did include an exerpt from your Red Alert, but I omitted the more, er, EDITORIAL comments about the level of Locus's fact-checking.
Dear Webderlanders:
I need your advice. Since stripping in photos for the Rabbit Hole is expensive, I was thinking of getting a scanner. Any thoughts on which one. The HERC budget (thanks to all of you that renewed early) can stretch to $200.00-$300.00. I was looking at: the Epson Perfection 1650 Photo, HP 5400 or 5470 cxi, or several Cannons. One word of warning! It must be simple and idiot proof. All I want is to be able to scan photos into the newsletter with good results. It does not need to dock with our space station or make me coffee. Any thoughts?
Thanks for your help.--Susan
Two matters, then bed.
Mr. Ellison: Just explanation: Mel doesn't use someone else's efforts without explanation and credit to the person responsible.
Now, whoever's got Bonds can tell him to go to hell. Christ, he starts off with two dingers today. It's Guerrero's turn, dammit!
Bag-O-Scott isn't happy about being in seventh...
Re: Locus Online...
I read something on the site a month or two back which states that although they use the name "Locus" and advertise the issues and whatnot, it's a seperately run endeavor. That's not to say it's not completely unrelated to the magazine--I'm not qualified to say one way or another--I just thought I'd throw that out there for individual analyzing.
Going back under the stone,
Bill
MELISSA, ET AL
and
THE BLUE MONKEY VENGEANCE BRIGADE:
Go ahead, Melissa; spread it around. (Why do you people keep asking me if they can spread it around, when that clearly was what I was asking them to do?) BUT. . .
I have one worry. Jim says he e-mailed Locus Online demanding a retraction. Charlie Brown has already AGREED to publish a retraction. Please READ my post!!! It is explicit. BUT . . .
DO NOT GET LOCUS's amalgamated nose amy more out of joint than it certainly is already (if my past experiences with Charlie's instant umbrage are any bellwether), not because he'll put ME in Coventry as regards mention in his journal, but because (as Janet mentioned a few minutes ago when I called to apprise her of your efforts) he'll take it out on Janet and, by extension, Isaac.
As we all know, enthusiasts can get a little too "Ox-Bow Incident" in their torch-bearing Frankenstein Monster-revenging fervor. You needn't include in your postings anything I, personally, may have imprudently said about Charlie's editorial practices. I don't mind such remarks in my own webvenue, but no need to disseminate that extraneous babble. It only muddies the water of truth Janet has asked us to pour on this brushfire.
I guess you know what I'm saying. Prudent behavior is best service to the point being made.
Respectfully, yr, pal, Harlan
Lynn, you wild hit of moonshine, damn great poetry there. The word, "art" may spring to mind.
--------------------------------
Brian, Now you know I have every Chomsky interview and online bit and piece burned into my memory. He he.
No, I was refering to the "early 70's" issue of the Humanist that you were talking about.
----------------------------------
Micheal Moore, number one on the New York Times best seller list!! Can someone say, Lefty heaven?
Mr. Ellison: Do I have your permission to send your entire comment to friends through email, so they may use it to explain their anger? You need only respond if you do not wish me to do so.
Love to All, Melissa
Mr. Ellison:
Sir, I read your post to Scotty, and he has authorized me to send off emails to many fo his friends, a large number of whom loved Asimov's work. A few have called, having already dispatched emails to the offending party, thanking me for the clarification; their gratitude I pass along to you.
Love to All, Melissa
For your consideration. I found this poem tucked in a notebook. If memory serves, I think I copied it off a sun-bleached poster in a thrift shop down in Hollywood somewhere (Gypsy something or other, right next door to Crazy Girls). I apologize if the scansion is wrong, as it was a tiny notebook and I was writing to fill a tiny space.
Untitled
Time of fools is coming
Time of the fairground tent
and the blasphemer with the funny face.
Time of the peacock quill,
the quill that glides from right to left
over the upside down paper.
Time when you won't be able to
lift your little finger without
dipping it into something
they call indecent.
Time of fools is coming
Time of the know-nothing teacher
and the book that can't be
opened at either end.
Aleksander Ristovic, Serbia (1933-1994)
RE ASIMOV AND LOCUS:
I just e-mailed Locus Online and asked them to post a retraction there immediately.
Yours,
Blue Monkey #27
I posted HE's red alert to alt.books.isaac-asimov and rec.arts.sf.fandom, for a start (although it wouldn't surprise me if somebody else beat me to those newsgroups, which I've otherwise never visited before in my life....)
If you're interested in previous topics of discussion, please do witness the "ARCHIVES" link at the top of the page (right hand menu under VISITOR FORUMS, third link from the bottom). The conversations about HUAC and subsequent reading suggestions available in the "Comments Archive: 1/31/2002 to 02/28/2002" & "Comments Archive: 12/09/2001 to 01/31/2002", right around the end of January, beginning of February. Just do a word search on "HUAC".
Your friendly neighborhood weaver of webs,
L.
Ok, I posted the message on IA over on the HE newsgroup. Also, there is a new Bradbury short story collection out now, entitled: One More For The Road. Picked it up the other day. Susan, thanks again for the help the other day.
Harlan:
Consider it done.
If you got a kick out of that sublime album, please do check out that equally fine documentary on Latin Jazz, Calle 54. Words are not enough to describe Bebo's two performances —with Cachao López and his own son Chucho— in that film.
Alejandro.
ONE MORE SMALL JOY BEFORE I GO:
Ray Bradbury got his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame yesterday, as many of you know. He called today to recount the experience (we chat more than usual these days) and he told me that he's got a new mystery novel coming out in the Winter, and he's dedicating it to me, that it was (in his words) "about time."
This is not an earth-shattering thing to announce, in the light of truly important world affairs, but I am thrilled to my socks, and I think it is SO KEWELL and, well, if you can't run around chattering with pleasure at Life's little rewards, what the hell's it all in aid of?
ALEJANDRO;
(and ANYONE ELSE WITH THE SAME REQUEST):
Go to it, kiddo! That's exactly the action Janet and I were hoping for. Spread it everywhere. Yo, top to bottom!
Yr. pal, Harlan
P.S. Senor Riera, when we get a spare moment, I want to rave about the recent Bebo Valdes album, which I've been playing and replaying for about a week. SO fine.
TONY ADAMS IN INDY;
Not too long ago, right here in this chat-room (and this lack of a way to recall data entered at length even as recently as this material, or anyone to remember its having been here . . . is what makes me despise the impenetrable amnesiac internet, as opposed to a good library or just a Britannica) the Blacklist, HUAC, the Hollywood Ten, the McCarthy hearings, Red Channels, those who narked, those whose lives were shattered, and an exhaustive list of books--and the best among them--and the suggested order of importance for reading them--appeared at length. Right here. All you need for direction to become wholly informed. I have no idea how to reference you to the proper entries, but I'm sure Rick or David Loftus or one of the other memory-perfect denizens here can direct you to them. Start with Nancy Schwartz's THE HOLLYWOOD WRITERS' WARS and . . .
Todd,
Regarding Pedro Martinez: His shoulder may be shot, but if you’ve never seen him complete a season then you weren’t paying attention from 1995-2000, when he averaged over 200 innings pitched per year, won over 100 games, and earned three Cy Young awards. A little respect please. If he’d done that for the Yankees you’d be saying the Hall of Fame rules should be waived and he should be inducted this year.
Harlan:
May I copy and paste your message, verbatim, over at the Paul Riddell forum?
I can do it right away, in the blink of an eye.
Alejandro
Brian,
Despite what you’ve been told here, the sentences you quoted from your novel in progress do not exhibit the use, excessive or otherwise, of passive voice. For example, the sentence "Heather was looking very nervous" is not an example of passive voice. It is an example of the use of the progressive form of the verb. The progressive form is used to indicate continuing action.
David Loftus
SUBJ: Art and Truth, - Tuesday, April 2 2002 14:4:31
"But Forrester, if Harlan talks about what his stories 'say' or "mean" after the fact, that's a very different activity from saying, up front, before he's written a word, 'I'm going to write a story about ---- and take this position in it because saying so will make the world a better place.'
"I'm gonna go out on a limb and declare that I doubt Harlan ever did that, at least with fiction."
It seems reasonable he never phrased it in such a manner. Let's ask him.
RED ALERT! RED ALERT! RED ALERT!
MUSTER THE GOOMBAHS!
LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR!
A CALL TO ARMS!!!!!
A few minutes ago I received a phone call from Isaac Asimov's widow, Dr. Janet Jeppson. She was more distraught than I've heard her manifest at any time since Isaac's passing. She was calling from New York City to report that in the current issue of LOCUS, Charlie Brown (or whoever) has published a belated article reprising the epilogue of Isaac's memoir (as edited by Janet), IT'S BEEN A GOOD LIFE, in which it was revealed--by Janet--that at the time of his death, Isaac had developed AIDS from a tainted blood transfusion during his heart surgery in the '80s.
But Charlie--or whoever wrote the piece--clearly had not READ the epilogue, and proceeds to state that (I'm paraphrasing, from Janet's precis; I don't get LOCUS) Isaac wanted to reveal his malaise, but was "talked out of it by his wife, Janet Jeppson."
From Janet's lips to my ear to you: "That is clearly, absolutely, hurtfully UNTRUE!"
Janet is TERRIBLY UPSET at this egregious misreading of history, and she called Charlie Brown, who said he'd run a correction . . . next issue. A month from now.
Janet does not want this to stand unchallenged for a month. She has asked me to help her spread the word. So I ASK YOU to go everywhere you post, in every nook and cranny of the web, on every site you can contact, and CORRECT this slovenly fan-babble error before it gains any coin. LOCUS is hardly The New York Times, and the level of its checking and vetting is somewhere close to nonexistent. A "correction" will probably appear in a small box on the indicia page: Charlie doesn't like to have to recant.
So fly, my blue monkeys; fly fly fly!!!
Every village and hamlet and waystation . . . let the voice of TRUTH ring out. If you loved Isaac, and if you loved him one-fifth as much as he loved Janet . . . honor his memory by serving this tiny favor she has asked of me, and you by extension.
Thank you. Yr. pal, Harlan
Lynn and Forrester had a pretty good back-and-forth about art. But Forrester, if Harlan talks about what his stories "say" or "mean" after the fact, that's a very different activity from saying, up front, before he's written a word, "I'm going to write a story about ---- and take this position in it because saying so will make the world a better place."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and declare that I doubt Harlan ever did that, at least with fiction. Fiction writers, like artists of all stripes, create to entertain themselves and/or their loved ones (did you know that _Naked Lunch_ basically started out as a series of love-seduction letters addressed to Allen Ginsberg?), and to find out what they think and feel.
After it comes out, the artist may look at it, ponder it, and say, "gosh, this must have been what I was feeling, what I meant by that." By then, the work has become a separate object; it could just as well have been the production of somebody else entirely whom the artist happens to know very well, and has learned a little more about by looking at the product. But again, I say this is not WHY the artist creates, WHY he or she started out working.
Which is why, I think, the Laura Dern character said it is accident and luck when truth comes out. Think of the books or stories that creators CARED SO MUCH ABOUT that didn't do squat for the readers, while the works the artist regarded as a five-fingered exercise or an entertaining throwaway (Rachmaninoff grew to HATE his beloved Prelude in C Minor, Tchaikovsky had contempt for "The Nutcracker," Marquez said he wrote _One Hundred Years of Solitude_ so he could eventually write the kind of books he WANTED to write) sometimes became their most honored and treasured by the public.
Addressing my last post directly, rich wrote:
> "a great artist will ask the second question ('Does
> it have something to say?') in addition to the first
> ---because the latter probably won't follow the
> former without first asking if it has something to say."
Not necessarily. Works of art "say" things to people all the time which were not necessarily intended or foreseen by the creator. I suspect some creators will readily admit "I have no idea what I was doing here; I'd love to hear what you think."
> " I think most artists that share their work are looking
> for truths."
LOOKING for truths is not the same thing as attempting to PRESENT truths to others, although they can travel together.
> "Again, we're talking about the conceit of the work
> itself. Just as when we post to this site, we are
> assuming that what we have to say is important enough
> for someone else to read it."
Again, I would say this ain't necessarily so. Some of us mainly like to hear ourselves talk. Much of what we post hear would just as likely have gone into a private journal (and been just as useful). I'm not denigrating all of us, necessarily; I think a lot of writers and painters would keep on working even if they knew they would never get another book published or show mounted.
> "I'm not saying we're posting great art here or spouting
> any important truths, but whenever someone produces a
> work or product to be in view of an audience, we are,
> in a sense, asking the audience to judge us and for the
> artist to say, 'Yes, I do have something vital to say
> and you should read it/view it.' "
Or maybe we're mainly thinking out loud ... finding out what we ourselves think by putting it into print so we can look at it a while and decide whether it's really true for us or not (as well as hoping someone else will 1) agree and make us feel good, and/or 2) critique and give our thoughts greater clarity).
Tony: If you're looking for books about HUAC, I think the best place to start is with Dalton Trumbo's "The Time of the Toad" and Lillian Hellman's "Scoundrel Time." Also, you might consider renting a film called "The Front" (1976) starring Woody Allen. The screenwriter, Walter Bernstein, the director, Martin Ritt, and cast members Zero Mostel, Herschel Bernardi, Joshua Shelley, and Lloyd Gough were all blacklisted. This is a movie about HUAC made by people who knew whereof they spoke.
Steve J.
Justin: Ask Russ Tamblyn about his experiences acting in
"War of the Gargantuas" and on "Twin Peaks."
(Not to mention George Pal's "Tom Thumb" or "West Side Story.")
R.Wilder
Harlan: Dr. Soren spoke today about a special guest we'll have in class on Thursday, an actor by the name of Russ Tamblyn. I mention it to you because Dr. Soren was listing off some of Tamblyn's credits, and one of the things he said was "Babylon 5." Now, I'm suspecting that you probably told him this, and that therefore this post is of little to no interest to you. But I figured I'd mention it anyway. Babylon 5 kind of passed me by, to tell you the truth (as have all TV shows since they took EWOKS: THE CARTOON off the air in the 80's. I was so heartbroken I vowed never to get attached to a TV show ever again), so I don't know what role he had, but there it is.
All: DEATH TO SMOOCHY doesn't deserve it's fate. I was just perusing the box office numbers (as is my duty as a new Media Arts major. I have to pay attention to these things now. For college, you understand. Note to the kids: picking a major that lends, to some of your more asinine interests, a hint of academic importance is never a bad idea) and I see that it's dying a quick death. But it's a gutsy flick that's worth seeing, so catch it if you get the chance.
Say...that giggly little bitch, Michael, still hasn't responded to a brother's multiple e-mails and phone messages. Doesn't that strike the rest of you as odd? I sure think it's wierd, but that's just me.
J
RE: ART
"We're here because we're here . . . because we're here because we're here . . . we're here because we're here because we're here because we're here . . .
Da-da da-da da-da . . . da-da da-da da-da da-da . . . da-da da-da da-da da-da da-da da-da da-da . . ."
- T.S.
Brian: I'm not entirely comfortable with your riff on satire. Discerning what the higher moral purpose actually is can be a shell game, but all the great satiric works I can think of off-hand -- right now, off-hand consists of *Gulliver's Travels*, *A Tale of a Tub* and Byron's "A Vision of Judgement" -- generate a lot of their satiric torque from the absolute moral indignation (or maybe disgust is a better word) spinning behind the writing. And I mean hellish in the best possible way -- as in "Milton was of the devil's party and didn't know it" hellish.
That said, you're also right -- quests for meaning in satire often seem to turn into mappings of misreadings. Orwell's take on *Gulliver's Travels* is instructive. Orwell sees the Houhnhnyms (sp?) as being Swift's statement on what the ideal society should look like, a take that only works if one sees Swift as being the complete misanthrope that early 20th century criticism made him out to be and if one sees Swift as being enamored of rationalistic, Enlightenment-era political thought (on the latter -- well, no). Gulliver's immorality and untrustworthiness manifest themselves throughout the course of the text, making his conversion to Houhnhnym-hood a pretty dubious endorsement. Orwell's usually a very capable reader, but Swift's satires are an extraordinary pain in the ass when it comes to interpretation.
So I guess I'd say, "You can go looking for the moral behind a satire -- but be ready to get bitten on the ass." And I think that extreme disgust with the ways things are, the base-line for a lot of satirists, does constitute an underlying moral foundation for most satiric works.
Jon
Brian: I NEVER giggle. Never. I occasionally titter. I have been known to guffaw. Once I chortled. But I never giggle.
Can anyone here suggest a good book that covers the subject of the Hollywood Ten and the HUAC hearings? I've checked with my local bookstore and they don't have any in stock. They did mention that there are quite a few on the subject but without being able to check them out first I'm apprehensive to have them order them for me.
Thanks.
Tony
Brian – one other thing – when you absolutely have to have a list or series of actions or behaviours – vary things. Mix it up by using different senses in various descriptions. Can you hear a person who's nervous? Yes, if they click their heels lightly – snap their nails- snap gum – even hyperventilate. Can you smell tension? Can you feel (as in touch) anger? Also – delve into some actions with more detail – Michael's giggling begs for this. That way you at least vary the flow of the narrative and it's appearance on the page.
So, if David can hear Heather's nervousness – we can feel the impact of Justin's tapping the table – hell if we can watch Michael fight the giggles, and fail, or fight and win – that might be an interesting conversation – especially when we see how the others react to the actions.
Art...well, by definition 'art' is something usually meant to be SEEN by an audience, right? I personally concur with Jim that some art should 'engage' as well as 'entertain'. Heck, I had NO fun whatsoever reading Ray Bradbury's THE CROWD, but it definately got to me that few short stories could. Now, when it comes to film...well, I don't really care whether 10 or 300,000 dollars were blown on it. To me, it all essentially amounts to images on the screen. I could be 'entertained' by THE ROCK as opposed to being 'engaged' by ERASERHEAD.
One of my own favourite classic artists out there is Goya. No one else could capture the most horrific expressions of the human face quite like him. 'Saturn Eating His Children' gave me some serious heavy-duty nightmares.
Actually, for a good black satire on the art world, check out H.P. Lovecraft's PICKMAN'S MODEL. It's essentially a dark comedy masquarading as a pulp horror story.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Brian - First let me say that the Passive Voice is a bitch that rides me hard and puts me away wet. I ALWAYS have problems with Passive Voice - but I have to agree with Alex - that sentence hurt.
Two - "nervous" I can imagine six different ways a nervous person acts (off the top of my head) - what's Heather's mode? It may be that my screenwriting background that helps - but imagine what your characters are _doing_, the real physicality of each individual. If they all act differently in your mind, they'll act differently on your page. What does David _see_ that tells him Heather is nervous. Then in turn, what does David _do_, having that knowledge. His response will reveal more about his character and his relationship to Heather than a paragraph of description would. Does he continue, ignoring her distress. Does he continue, acknowledging her. Does he pause - does he stop his actions altogether? This will be a cool moment.
"tapped the table with angry emphasis" - again the passive, but now we add the question of "with what?" His finger? knuckles? a ruler? a gavel? a walking stick? Then the question "does 'tapped' work with 'angry emphasis'"? arrives. Would a more active verb do the job - "stabbed", "rapped", or "pounded"?.
Like Alex - I'm not trying to pile on - and my level of accomplishment is minimal - so take my thoughts with a healthy grain of salt, and feel free to discard it all if it doesn't work for you.
ARTISTS AND TRUTH: Storytellers lie. Some, like Lawrence Block, "Tell Lies for Fun and Profit." In these lies, if we can find insight, well. Good-o. If not, we have distracted. Z'enuff for me.
BRIAN: Um. I DO hope that those sentences aren't really representative of the style. You're too good a writer to be over-passive. And "David noticed that Heather was looking very nervous." made me scream.
(A quick dissection: "David noticed": You're too far into David's head here. And "noticed" is a bad word to use for the most part unless the notice-ER is noting something specific, like the capybara nibbling at Heather's shoe. "Heather was looking"--passive voice, and more bad: "Heather was looking very nervous.": That tells us next to nothing. SHOW her nerves. Can you describe a nervous person in a motion, a tic, an action? Sorry to dogpile on you, but that's just a bad, bad, bad, bad sentence.)
You feel like you're at times listing behaviors? Well, that's a problem--and one I won't deny having myself. The horrible thing about doing this is that it comes off sounding, unless you intentionally have a juvenile narrator, like the kid on Anamaniacs telling his stories about Randy Beaman.
"Telling." And that's the problem. "Show, Don't Tell" is not ALWAYS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT the perfect aphorism, but it's good enough for government work. Show something that David sees Heather do that clues him into her anxiety.
Another bitchpick I have, and it's probably because I fall victim to it as well--the last sentence: " ...with angry emphasis." Bad again. You're not painting the picture, you're putting the color-by-numbers number on the page. I've seen your writing and know you can be more descriptive and less hamfisted than this.
I may just be a little oversensitive to this right now because I just finished the big edit of my own book and was shocked to see the kind of crap *I* let stay on the page, but ...
I do hope I haven't offended you.
Jim, you're full of crap. But it's really GREAT crap. ;-)
It occurred to me that there's a built-in problem with saying what art is "supposed" to do. That's because we associate the artistic impulse with the impulse to ignore the rules of what we're "supposed" to do. Once we say what art is supposed to do, then the art that _does_ that is sort of "following the rules," and isn't art supposed to involve breaking the rules, somehow?
I don't think there's any underlying truth in this point, but it can be illustrated with one of the most difficult arts around: satire. Satire, at its best, honors no authority and asserts no morality higher than the one it's lampooning. But, people persist in trying to discern some "higher morality" behind the satirist. And frankly, once a satirist comes forth and says, yeah, this is what I believe _in_, he's half-dead as a satirist right then and there.
Still, I'd strongly urge everyone here to read Robert Hughes' trilogy of essays collected under the title _Culture of Complaint_. There are a lot of really striking passages-- I'm especially fond of his description of performance Karen Finley as a "chocolate-covered Irishwoman." So here's one on political art that might be of interest after the citation of Picasso's _Guernica_:
"Throughout the whole history of the avant-garde, this hope [that painting and sculpture can provoke social change] has been refuted by experience. No work of art in the 20th centuryy has ever had the impact that _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ had on the way Americans thought about slavery, or _The Gulag Archipelago_ did on ilusions about the real nature of Communism. The most celebrated, widely reproduced and universally-recognizable political painting of the 20th century is Picasso's _Guernica_, and it didn't change Franco's regime one inch or shorten his life by so much as one day. What usually changes political opinions is events, argument, press photographs, and TV.
"The catalogue convention of the 90s is to dwell on activist artists 'addressing issues' of racism, sexism, AIDS, and so forth. But an artist's merits are not a function of his or her gender, ideology, sexual preference, skin color or medical condition, and to address an issue is not to address a public. The HIV virus isn't listening. Joe Sixpack isn't looking at the virtuous feminist knockoffs of John Heartfield on the Whitney wall-- he's got a Playmate taped on the sheetrock bext to the bandsaw, and all the Barbara Krugers in the world aren't going to get him or anyone else to mend his ways. The political art we have in postmodernist America is one long exercise in preaching to the converted. As Adam Gopnik pointed out in the _New Yorker_ when reviewing the Carnegie International in Pittsburgh, is consists basically of taking an unexceptionable or obvious idea-- "racism is wrong" or "New York shouldn't have thousands of beggars and lunatics on the street"-- then coding it so obliquely that when the viewer has re-translated it he feels the glow of being included in what we call the 'discourse' of the artworld. But the fact that a work of art is about AIDS or bigotry no more endows it with aesthetic merit than the fact that it's about mermaids and palm trees."
Foduck?
MY LATEST, PURELY SUBJECTIVE CONTRIBUTION TO THE VERY THOUGHTFUL "ART" DISCUSSION:
When I previously said a work of art must entertain, that didn't mean it should only aspire to the level of mindless fluff. Maybe "entertain" is the wrong word; "engage" is probably better, and fits the purpose of art more precisely (as far as THIS crowd is concerned, anyway). Of course art can convey a heavy message, and do it very well--witness Picasso's "Guernica," the poems and plays of Brecht, and the stories of one Harlan Ellison.
But that's not the only form art can take. It can also be bland, or garish, or pedantic, or trivial, or depressing, or uplifting, or religious, or Areligious, or realistic, or surrealistic, or soothing, or abrasive, or passionate, or dispassionate...name the adjective, and I'm sure there's a piece of art out there that it fits. Art is ultimately a VESSEL, and it can be filled with whatever the creator thinks is necessary to complete it, be it blood, bile, tears or nectar. Or even nothing at all.
I've just looked in my copy of The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, and it gives this primary definition for art: "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature." That's good, but I'd add "and the creations of man him/herself" to the end. There's also a broader one by the comic artist Scott McCloud: "Any human activity which doesn't grow out of either of our species' two basic instincts: survival and reproduction." I like that definition a little better. It emphasizes the quality of PLAY in art, which is often forgotten in these discussions.
It also counters a prevalent view: That if a work is shoddy or crass, it "isn't art." Witness Frank Church's examples of the novels of Tom Clancy and John Grisham. Well, I have to say you're wrong, Frank. OF COURSE they're art, just like the stand-up of Gallagher, the music of Jewel and Garth Brooks, and the poetry of Jimmy Stewart are. They're just not GOOD art, is all. (And if you don't like my examples, substitute your own bete noires. They'll still apply.)
In the end, I believe in the power of art to make its own rules, pave its own path, and create its own meaning and purpose. In its ability to stand outside of our petty definitions, art may be the most powerful and profound thing humanity has ever created. When it truly works, it sure feels that way.
But, as always, I could be full of crap.
CHUCK (and anyone else I "stung"): You're lucky. I was going to write an elaborate series of crossposts featuring a fictional (and quite insane) troll, but thought better of it. I'd like to maintain SOME semblance of good standing here...
Time to take a break here, and yabber for a little while.
I've been working on a novel for quite a while now. This particular incarnation's been taking place over the last year or so, and it's given me a surprising amount of joy and frustration. And, since we're all aspiring or publish writers here, maybe you'll have some interest.
The joy comes from three places. There's the joy when the writing seems to go along at a nice clip. I crank out paragraphs, and they read reasonably well, and they advance the plot. Then there's the joy of knowing that, rather imagining having written a novel, I'm actually doing it. (I'm not even thinking about the chances for publication. It's just nice to get the damn thing on paper.)
But there's one joy which seems just a little out of my grasp. It almost comes from those moments when I'm outlining things, and I'm trying to work out some problem, and I come up with something that actually comes close to surprising me. That's one frustration; I can't seem to surprise _myself_ very often. When I come up with an idea, I know exactly _how_ I thought of it, and I'm also aware of what things I've read or seen or heard that have contributed to it. It's very frustrating, because I can get this surprise from other writers... but I have no idea whether the stuff I do can give that same sense of surprise to anyone else.
Then there's the simple issue of writing style. The book, as it stands, is aimed somewhat at younger readers-- the sort of younger reader who'd enjoy books for adults alongside of the age-calibrated stuff. (Just the sort of kid who's ripe for Harlan, actually.) So there are all kinds of limits I've set for myself: no profanity, no excessively poetic descriptions, no long passages of inner character stuff when it can be kept simple and direct.
Yeah, I know, someone's going to tell me that these last two points are what good writing's all about. Sure, if you want to sell to John W. Campbell fifty years ago. The downside of this meat-and-potatoes approach is that it's really easy for the text to seem really _dead_ on the page.
Here's an example. I might have a scene where four characters are talking about something. One of the characters is David Protagonist, so we get occasional sentences like "David noticed that Heather was looking very nervous." But after a few more bits like "Michael was fighting giggles to get the story out" and "Justin tapped the table with angry emphasis," and it starts to feel as though I'm simply listing behaviors.
Fiction ain't easy. Or, as Bart Simpson said, "George Burns was right. Show business is a hideous bitch-goddess."
Little Washu:
When I read your post, I thought YOU were trying to put one over on US. I'd already figured out the 2001 gag, so I thought there would be more stuff like that.
Yeah, Tim directing the Cat remake would be pretty scary. Almost as scary as a Forrest Gump Remake. Eek.
Chuck
Jim:
When I first read your 2001 post, I thought, "What? WhatwhatWHAT?" Then I remembered what day it was. First April Fool's of the day. (Whew!)
Okay, I'm working at a second, part-time job for a while. Just to get a little ahead of the eight ball. It's at a hobby shop, where I know the people who run the place. It's one evening during the week, and Sunday. Not too bad.
So, I'm surrounded by all kinds of stuff, models, R/C cars, boats, etc. There's also some kiddie stuff, including Thomas the Tank Engine, Jay Jay the Jet, and some anthropomorphic boats. One is named Foduck. Foduck?
That got me thinking, and given the slightly twisted state of my mind, I came up with another kiddie show starring some anthropomorphic machines: Tony the Tank. Tony is an M1A1 main battle tank and Gulf War veteran. His happy-go-lucky pals are Arnie the Armored Personnel Carrier, and Hubert Humvee. They all have cute faces on their front grills, or in the case of Tony, around his menacing cannon/schnozzola.
Episode One: It's Armed Forces Day at the mall. Tony, Arnie and Hubert are on display, with people getting to ride Hubert, who's "pleased as punch to be giving rides to all the kiddies". Then, a kid's toy balloon pops, and it triggers a Gulf War flashback in Tony, who levels the place. Everybody runs from the scene screaming, while Arnie trundles along behind trying to snap Tony out of it, while broadcasting to the frantic crowd, "DO NOT PANIC! PLEASE REMAIN CALM! HE GETS THIS WAY SOMETIMES, BUT OTHERWISE HE'S OKAY!"
I'm a ba-a-ad boy. (snicker)
Chuck
Dear Harlan,
I was able to grab a copy of Writers' Market from a friend of mine who works at a reduced price book store (no free plugs). I'll be making my way through it soon so that I can find out for myself about ownership of my work. It was uncanny though that you knew I wasn't getting paid for the website work (since I never actually mentioned that) and I'll do my best to be a little brighter next time. It can be a bit intimidating at first when people say that they'd love for you to write for them but that they don't pay contributors. You want the chance and you take it even though you know it doesn't quite sound right and then you end up regretting it.
I want to apologize to you, as a someone I truly respect, for not listening and learning when you've said that you ALWAYS get paid for your work. Hell, I'm sorry for even asking the question in the first place. I know the answers are out there and that we can't always turn to you to wipe our collective noses for us. Sorry.
As for the Best Man business, well, I really do wish I had the money to fly you and Susan to town. If I were smarter about not giving my work away for free I might have a nickel or two to rub together, right? For what it's worth "I am quietly humble and proud that you've asked me to be your Best Man in October" means just as much as you actually being here. I know you have much better things to think about anyway, but it was nice that you said as much as you did.
Sincerely,
Tony Adams
Of course, for 'Beatty' substitute 'Faber.' Yeah, that's the ticket.
Jon
APRIL FOOLS!
Tim Burton is NOT directing a 'Cat from Outer Space' remake. My aopolgies, Tim. I'm such a %$#@ing dunderhead I didn't even bother to check the %^%$ing date on the %@&^ing calendar. Everyone is now free to pelt my face with custard pies. Joke's on me, yesiree. Good one. Yep. That was real funny. Yep.
But it was not funny.
It was very, very scary.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Mmm...a house smothered in cheese...
Well, as a comedian in all seriousness, I don't want to come across as an 'all art must have utility' person when my main beef was with the West Wing episode and the way it constructed the poet and the whole art argument, and not with the perfectly valid and sh*t-disturbing Oscar Wilde aphorism 'All art is quite useless.'
I may be reacting to word choice. 'Entertainment' is a fine thing, but the word's current use always seem to involve statements along the lines of 'I don't want to think -- I just want to be entertained!' (Current use in pop media, not on this board, by the way.) 'Sensation' is a loaded word, too, although Jay's (?) definition is a lot more intellectual than how it's often used to describe quasi-aesthetic experiences. The 'truth' thing is a bit of a red herring -- i'm happy with truthfulness to something, the provocation of thought and feeling, the ability to experience something that can be reflected upon in a way that isn't simply either 'gee, that was neat' or 'gee, there were a lot of holes in that.' I don't think the purpose of Art is to drown someone or to smother response. Beatty's words in *Fahrenheit 451* that books can be held at arm's length and that that's part of the point work for me, juxtaposed against Bradbury's imaginings of a world in which endless visceral sensation and the ability to drown in an ocean of never-ending sensory input are the society's entertainment goals.
Head hurt now. Watch basketball, eat chips.
Jon
Art and the conception of the artist as the courier of truth. No, no artist carries truth, but I feel they carry the sense of commonality of experience and empathy towards the futile struggle of that which is human. I don't believe in truth as an absolute; I think that the human animal cannot create it.
We lie and create gods out of lies.
We lie and create ideals and ideologies out of lies.
We lie and lie and lie...
Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps the job of the artist and of Art isn't about the creation of truth; perhaps it is more about exposing the lies we create within our existence.
"When I was a little boy, they called me a liar, but now that I am grown up, they call me a writer." -I.B. Singer
But, on the other hand...
"The sexual organs are the most sensitive organs of the human being. They are not diplomats. They tell the truth." - I.B. Singer
BOS
To Frank, whose comments on art and truth were just damn-fine. Which Chomsky debate are you asking about? Only one I can recall was a Dutch talk show with Michael Foucault-- the transcript is on the Web somewhere, and I believe the full version's on the just-released DVD of _Manufacturing Consent_. (No chewing-out involved-- it's a very cordial discussion, in three languages, no less.)
Oh....got back word on the hypothetical Harlan Ellison collectible 12" doll.
First sculpt and painting... $370
Additional Harlans... $170
Heh heh...
Pam and I were thinking about asking Mr. Ellison to Officiate our wedding, but...in light of the (very fair) costs of appearing, I think we'll settle for the President of our local Sugarloaf conference, slap an ordination from the Universal Life Church on him wrapped around a fifty :)
Chris, sorry about the gloat, but being a Yankee fan and hearing over and over and over about the God Pedro.....and yet never seeing him complete a season because he's just so goshdarn delicate (how many friggin' times do we need to hear him whine that his career is more important than this game or that game or whatever game?), I just had ta! I love this sport! I enjoy rooting against players (Pedro, Piazza, Spittin' Alomar) and teams (Mets, Red Sox) almost as much as I enjoy rooting FOR them!
Sure, the Yankees got their asses blasted today, and Clemens is still 20 wins away from 300.....but I sit back and savor Pedro's outing (and the fact that even though the damn Mets had to win, Al Leiter is mine).
-TODD
TONY IN INDY:
I am quietly humble and proud that you've asked me to be your Best Man in October, but since you cannot afford to buy books that will advise you that writing for these websites IS INDEED a sad-ass waste of time unless unless unless UNLESSSSSS THEY'RE PAYING YOU!!!!!!!, I have a cosmic epiphany that you're not going to be able to pony up:
First-Class Airfare from LA to Indianapolis for Susan and me.
Cost of a decent hotel room for Susan and me.
Cost of room service for breakfasts in the hotel.
Recompense for meals that will have to be eaten in decent restaurants.
A modest per diem to "make me whole," as they say, for the hours (days) of writing time I will lose to accomodate you.
Add to that the airport taxes and surcharges, and the cost of taxis or whatever transportation we'll need to get around your town.
I presume you didn't expect me to front the cost of this jolly hegira myself.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I learned today, from Gordon Van Gelder, the editor at The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction who published my story "From A to Z, in the Sarsaparilla Alphabet," that the story somewhichway found itself on the Horror Writers Association final ballot for the Bram Stoker Award. Since I
dis-joined the organization (which I helped found with Joe and Dean and a few others) the year after they gave me a Lifetime Achievement Award, because they then proceeded to give one to Forrest J. Ackerman, I was totally unaware that I'd been nominated. Now I come here and see someone else mentioning it.
Well, if you belong to HWA, and you read the story, and you wish to vote for it BECAUSE YOU THINK IT'S WORTHY, I'm pleased and flattered. But if you belong to HWA and you haven't read the story, please don't vote for it out of camaraderie or our tenuous liaison here. That is cronyism, and there's already a cesspool-full of it in HWA as well as most other sf organizations.
Spread the word.
Yr. pal, a model of rectitude, Harlan
Forrester~ True enough. Art for art's sake, creativity for creativity's sake has its own validation. (For some reason, a giant house covered in melted cheese springs to mind, thank you Ripley's.) Sometimes you just gotta go with it. (Or heaven forbid, a giant inflatable plush fur-covered banana.)
But in the long run, the difference between artists (named or formerly named), who will be forgotten as soon as their strutting and fretting is done, and the real storytellers is the difference between soapstone and granite. One is right purty to look at. The other we use as a foundation for our very lives.
The inherent value in one form over another is self-evident, I should hope.
L.
Testing one two.
Laura Dern!!
Wild At Heart--sex scenes!!
Heaven.
The idea that art must convey some devine truth is nonsense. Sometimes art just makes you feel something--something not related to truth--but something. Maybe art teaches a sense of belonging in the world, or a peace in some spiritual sense. Art doesn't have any rules, remember: Art is the anarchy of brilliant minds overthrowing the mundane.
I mean, does Dali's melting watches have any "truth" to them? I don't think so; and some of the things I have read about Dali indicate that he was quite full of shit, mostly. Dali had a genius eye, but he was also one batty gent. Dear Salvador devined grand mysteries on canvas, but the truth to be found in them seemed like jibberish.
Also, is entertainment art? Rock and Roll music would be labeled "bad art" if this designation were the norm. But does rock music make you feel something? Sure. Maybe revulsion, but it does press your buttons. But most of it is entertainment. And that is not always bad. Art rock I find pretty lame mostly.
Harlan himself sometimes strives for the high "statement", but usually he is an entertainer, as well as a fine story teller. But I will agree that some aesthetic balance is needed. Tom Clancy and John Grisham are not artists--but Steven King is: He is a lesser artist, but one just the same. At least to me.
Just as I will admit that Chomsky is not a great writer--but that is not his mode of thought anyway. His ideas are great, but his writing is dry and a bit too dusty. Whatever that means.
---------------------
Brian, do you know the exact year of that Chomsky debate?
Chomsky always chews people apart in intellectual debates. That would be a blast--at least for me. Right Todd?
Lynn-
(Quick note re Laura Dern's character on West Wing and the lines that initiated this discussion. If she felt there was nothing in her poetry that demonstrated she possessed an actual insight to truth, then perhaps the muse nudges her to find out what it is with its many perspectives and POVs. If she only wanted to express her opinions and perceptions, she would not have listened or attempted to understand what Ziegler - or anyone else - had to say that was contrary to them.)
Some have contended the artist has no purpose (or right) in seeking to convey truth, that the creation of a work is solely for the purpose of creating, as the artist feels s/he must follow this path and can choose no other. That the artist who assumes his/her work has captured and expressed a truth (as s/he perceives it) is arrogant. That the artist must be content with being pleased with what was created as a primary goal.
Start with the concept that Ellison is considered an artist. If his solitary purpose as a writer, as an artist, is to create (as some have said), it should also be explained by those same people why Ellison continues to publish collections of his work which are accompanied by introductions which discuss the common thread, thematic elements, etc., that bind them together and the message that he desires these stories to convey.
Having a purpose accompany the narrative does not make it bad art. If those who say that there must be no intended purpose, art for art's sake only, does that lessen the style and veracity of "Croatoan" or "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" or ... the list is too long, let’s just stop here....
As usual, Harlan’s own words express it better. From the notes to "Paladin of the Lost Hour," found elsewhere on this website:
"In that scene occurs a pivotal bit of business that goes straight to the heart of this story's theme: responsibility.
" 'Paladin of the Lost Hour' is the capper of my preoccupation with the themes of friendship, ethics, courage, responsibility, and the getting us wisdom. Throughout the story, Gaspar and Billy are merely men; simply two fallible human beings who each carries the fate of the human race in his own life, and who perceive that inevitably we are responsible not only for ourselves, but for everyone. Billy and Gaspar do not turn away from that responsibility. They know that the buck cannot pass beyond them, that they must not only cope with the wonder that befalls them, but they must transcend.
"If there is a theme or message I would have posterity glean from a lifetime of my work, it is that we must not only take on the dirty job of preserving humanist values, but we must prevail, must transcend our flaws. Otherwise, we are no nobler than the driver of the Cadillac in this story."
If there was never design, intent or purpose, no planned objective to convey truth thru his craft, why would he care what posterity thinks of him and his efforts?
Let’s cut back on the absolutes. Sometimes a story is just a story. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes.
Todd,
As the proud owner of Pedro in Webderland, I say you should wait at least 24 hours before gloating. Like it wasn't painful enough to watch it on ESPN.
At least I got the win from Kelvim Escobar.
Just wait til y'all see my Roy Oswalt shut down the pathetic Brewers Wednesday night...
Harlan~ Re: your message of the 24th. Trust me to lose my bleeding cellphone for a week in the depths of my briefcase, and when I find it again, the SOLE AND LONE message on my voicemail is from you. It is moments like these that define my perception of luck.
We shall talk more of brodarts this weekend in Fresno over coffee. I just got off the phone with Susan not moments ago (after which I found my phone and retrieved the message), and she tells me you may be at the mercy of the organizers for dinner, but we shall connect. Seeing as you already have my cellphone number...
Wishing I were Jewish because I know there is one Yiddish word that sums this feeling up. Oh wait, there's one in my language too.
::DOH::
L.
"Do you think that I think that the artist's job is to speak the truth? An artist's job is to captivate you for however long we ask for your attention. If we stumble into truth, we got lucky. And I don't get to decide."
I believe you can only stumble onto Truth. It's all a matter of perspective and bias to decide for yourself, your family, your culture or your world what IS true. Even the most abberant thoguhts and actions have some justification in some convention or another. SOME idea has merit and Truth even if it is to a few people.
I think in context, though, she was talking about having that illusion of "ultimate truth" and "artistic integrity" broken by the reality that perception must be manipulated to serve the greater good. If she wants to forward the cause she represents, she has to act contrary to her beliefs and feelings. Note I don't mean the "TRUTH" but the greater "GOOD" which is equally subjective. It was like watching a girl decide to give up Christmas because she suddenly realized Santa wasn't real. She realized that, in the big bad world of public opinion, people don't give a shit about YOUR "Truth" if you conflict with THEIR perception.
Just my POV...hardly the Truth in the eyes of others.
You know, I'm not even looking for Art to supply me with the Truth anymore. Just give me eyes to see reality in a different way. The Truth I'll figure out on my own.
"Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a
man of some sense to know how to lie well."
•Samuel Butler
"Lies that build are better
than truths that destroy."
•Senegalese Proverb
What kind of 'truth' do we want from Art? That is a pretty big question.
My SO and I had a discussion over lunch this weekend about the nature of storytelling (originally a discussion about me writing an article on roleplaying). After mulling over the origins of the oral tradition and bandying about Joseph Campbell's name, we finally came to the conclusion that storytelling seeks to do one thing. Connect the reader in the present with a protagonist either in the past or in the future, and in doing so, let them know that no matter what struggles they face in life, they are not alone. A large part of the conversation was devoted to the sense of belonging that seems to be missing in today's youth. Without rites of passage and a firm grounding in moral understanding offered in previous generations by the stories of our elders, they seem to drift uncaring through life, disconnected from civilization. They have no sense of continuation from the previous generation to carry forward into the next. Storytellers teach us the ultimate truths of living. How to think and react in the face of adversity. How to face fear and rise above it. How to love, be loved, and how to survive losing love. How to deal with death. How to understand that we are not alone in these very human trevails. These are the truths we seek from art. Lessons in how to be human.
L.
Brian,
That all depends. What is Art guilty of, and am I allowed to use the brass knuckles on him to get him to confess?
*rimshot*
Regards,
Joseph
Well, it's Opening Day. I got on the El at Addison today, and there were people mowing the outfield at Wrigley in the nice sunshine. Now it's snowing. Yep, that's Chicago.
Regards,
Joseph
All of this begs a pretty big question. What kind of truth are we trying to get from Art?
David,
"The best thing an artist should be able to say about his or her work is "I like this," not "I think it has something vital to say." If the former is the case, the latter will likely follow. But to start out looking for truths, or to presume one has found them, seems to me to put the cart well before the horse. Great art is neither so calculating nor certain."
True. But, a great artist will ask the second question ("Does it have something to say?") in addition to the first---because the latter probably won't follow the former without first asking if it has something to say. I think most artists that share their work are looking for truths. Again, we're talking about the conceit of the work itself. Just as when we post to this site, we are assuming that what we have to say is important enough for someone else to read it. I'm not saying we're posting great art here or spouting any important truths, but whenever someone produces a work or product to be in view of an audience, we are, in a sense, asking the audience to judge us and for the artist to say, "Yes, I do have something vital to say and you should read it/view it."
I'm mildly surprised by the outrage over the quote from "West Wing." I didn't see the show, and of course the quote is offered out of context, but I think the response to it -- ridicule and umbrage -- comes mostly from a misreading of it.
Here's the quote as reported earlier today:
"Do you think that I think that the artist's job is to speak the truth? An artist's job is to captivate you for however long we ask for your attention. If we stumble into truth, we got lucky. And I don't get to decide."
I think that's quite right. Scientists search for truth, priests and ministers claim to have it -- or a road to it. The goal of artists is to please themselves and others. Truths with a lower case "t" may indeed surface through that process, in fact inevitably will do so, but to start out looking for truth tends to make for very bad art, in my opinion. And to presume one has captured truths in one's art is also an act of hubris.
Truths surface through the interaction between art and reader/viewer. The best thing an artist should be able to say about his or her work is "I like this," not "I think it has something vital to say." If the former is the case, the latter will likely follow. But to start out looking for truths, or to presume one has found them, seems to me to put the cart well before the horse. Great art is neither so calculating nor certain.
Hey, whoever it is that got all excited about getting Pedro Martinez on their Webderland team (can't remember who it was, and can't access the site from work): He just gave up 3 runs in the first inning.
Add to this fact that he should be on the disabled list by mid-June, and you are not going to be cheering for long. Pedro may be great when he's healthy, but being great 35% of the season is not going to cut it. Too too fragile.
-TODD
Michael: That's a fine explanation of the role of the artist.
The West Wing: The 'art thing' was bad enough; that the BBS sub-plot in last week's episode appears to have been based on Sorkin's own appearance on the Television without Pity website is really bizarre.
The obnoxiousness of the West Wing's take on 'art' lies in more than just the summary statement by the wacky poet. Throughout the episode, we get the standard hacky version of poets -- they don't understand consequences, Toby says at one point; at another, he tells her that "this isn't kid's stuff" in response to her desire to talk about landmines at the dinner. Right. Of course. Poets don't understand consequences, and their take on politics is juvenile. Did a poet threaten to beat Aaron Sorkin up at some point? Or turn him down when he asked for a date? For a show that wears its ostensive intellectualism on its sleeve (and does so in this very episode), it certainly conjures up a relentlessly low-wattage construction of the artist and art in this episode.
Baseball: Why does everyone hate Gary Carter? That's an honest question -- I'm not a huge fan, but I do think he was a great catcher. I've heard pundits suggest that his difficulties with the media account for his Hall problems -- he comments too much for some journalists to be comfortable.
Jack Morris: My own take would be that Morris is the quintessential non-stats guy. Sparky Anderson pointed out, back in 1984, that Morris's perennial problem was that he'd get bored when he was too far ahead in a game and stop concentrating. In the case of the 1984 Tigers, that expanded to 'too far ahead in a season.' Morris won 19 that year, and ol' Spark commented that Morris would have won 24 or 25 if he wasn't, well, Morris. He was the Jays' only consistent winner in '92, and if he lost in the post-season -- well, Clemens and Randy Johnston and Greg Maddux, to name three, don't exactly have enthralling post-season records (they are all better overall pitchers than Morris, however). Morris had both his Minnesota year and his post-season with the Tigers in '84. I don't think he makes it to the Hall because of that high ERA and because of a need for 20 more career wins or so. If David Wells managed to have a longer career, it would look like Morris's.
Of course, Jimmy Key was a better pitcher than either Wells or Morris, but that's yet another story.
Jon
REGARDING THOSE 2001 RUMORS IN MY EARLIER POST:
Do I even have to say it? (Check your calender.)
(With MY luck, this silly prank has traversed the globe several times over, and an international mob of pissed-off Kubrick fanatics is massing on my house even as I write this...)
ON THE PROPER ROLE OF THE ARTIST: Maybe my terms were a little imprecise, though I should point out that entertainment doesn't only mean "distracting" and "not-edifying" in my book (I think Jerzy Kosinski's novels--or whoever wrote them--Bartok's String Quartets, and Max Ernst's paintings are all entertaining, in their own ways). But I still stand by my basic assertion: A work of art's message is secondary to its ability to entertain OR ENGAGE the audience. Think about this for a minute: Art is not philosphy, though it can dig pretty deep into philosophical issues; Art is not journalism, though it can be the MOST accurate representation of an event; and it isn't religion, though it can certainly posit moral and ethical precepts.
What it IS is a construct that forces the viewer, however briefly, to actually perceive the universe IN THE SAME WAY THE ARTIST DOES. Now, some could argue that all the other fields I've listed do basically the same thing, and maybe they're right. But Art differs in its ability to directly zero in on sensory experience, without regard to justifications of "import" or "edification." It simply IS its own justification, and if it corkscrews the viewer into its own however-twisted reflection of the space-time continuum, then its mission has been accomplished.
Can a work of art have greater import than just the initial sensory impact? Of course, and I would even agree that it MUST to have any longevity. But that's STILL secondary to the reaction it should induce in the person experiencing it. To give an extreme example: If I made an invisible painting, and hung it on a busy sidewalk, it may be the greatest conceptual triumph ever devised. But no one would notice or care, which makes it a failure. I'm not saying that Art should be shocking or sensationalistic, but it must always engage; if it doesn't, then it never truly leaves the realm of the artist's imagination.
(For what it's worth: Art can be bad without altering its, well, "artiness." So, yes, Pro-Wrestling is Art, too. Sometimes you have to take the head cheese with the foie gras.)
What can I say? I'm a pleasure junky, so sensation is tops with me. (And I'm really enjoying the other posts on this topic, especially Michael's.)
Have to go. A brick just landed in my living room, and they're lighting the effigy on fire...
Me like days off. Pity the Jays' opener is in Boston.
2001: I have never been overtly impressed by the film, thinking it a third rate alien influencing humanity film (Clarke did a far better job with the theme in his novel "Childhood's End"). Yes, we get the wonderful opening sequence of a tribe of protohumans getting their edumacation by licking a glorified black formica countertop and a segue from a bone to the satellite, showing man's progression through technology. Then, we get a voyage of technology culminating to the alien race finally pushing man through the next phase of evolution. It becomes trite and boring, with one dimensional acting (I'd always felt HAL the the most realistic human presence in the film).
Whenever I'd seen the film, I've always been left wondering why the focus of the film comes to be on the mission as a means for man to take the next step in evolution. As the intro clearly shows, the experiment(?) in increasing humanity's intellect was to benefit the species. Why then, on Bowman's arrival through the portal, would the aliens change only he, and do so sub rosa? These aliens seem to want humans to know of their existence by sending out messages for humanity to follow, then why cover their tracks? If they'd meant for man to find the formica countertop on the moon (that purpose becomes self evident when the countertop sends out the audial signal pursued by the good crew of the "Discovery"), wouldn't the aliens take pains to ensure that all humanity became aware of their presence? Even more; why does man have to go to the moon to find a countertop? Wouldn't it make more sense for the aliens to install one on earth, and more closely monitor their experiment(?) from closer proximity?
Bag-O-Scott believes that his mission to locate a similar countertop will begin at Home Depot; it's easier to get to than Tycho
I'm officially losing all respect for Tim Burton, everybody. I talked about Timmy a while ago and was quite vocal about my low opinion of his most recent films. But now, I've pretty much had it with this guy. After all his bitching and moaning of his godawful experiences filming PLANET OF THE APES, he leaps right into yet ANOTHER remake. And just to prove my point, here's a quote from the man himself:
"No one can touch the original Cat From Outer Space," said Burton in today's Variety. "It's a classic and I wouldn't dream of remaking it. But re-imagining it? Sure, why not?"
Um...is it just me, or did he say THE EXACT SAME WORD-FOR-WORD SPEECH when he came aboard PLANET OF THE APES?
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
one more time
Micheal Rich
Thanks. You nailed what I was going for. I also wanted to point out that Sorkin put that phrase in the mouth of a poet. Of all the ways you can work as a writer, I'm pretty sure poetry is not the best way to go if you want to captivate an audience, (unless you're Jewel).
You know what I truly love about Harlan's work? It's that I don't love every single thing he's written. He changes so often, that sometimes a story doesn't speak to me. I love most of his work, but there's the occasional story that doesn't wow me. I love that I'm not going to be reading Jeffty is Five again and again, cause Harlan knows the audience will go for it. I'll take the risk of coming across a 'At the Mouse Circus'if it means that I might come across a Neither Your Jenny nor Mine. (a story by rights I should be a little to young to fully appreciate the atmosphere of the story, except he tells it so well, that I Get It.
Do I want to be entertained? Yes. However, I don't want to be just entertained at least not all the time.
Jim, Brian. I didn't want to step on the guy who wrote the recap, but he does a great job clarifying that there is a difference between artist and entertainer. An entertainer's job is to hold the audiences attention, and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that, but an artist is something different, an artist isn't bound by the whims of the audience they're bound to something else entirely.
As for what truth is, you're right there is no universal truth, but what is interesting is what the artist percieves and how he interprets that truth.
Brian mentioned that sometimes the artist sometimes just wants people to rethink things without telling them what the truth is. You missed the point. Having people rethink what they've always believed is the 'truth' the artist was going for. Sometimes truth like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and the artist lets you come to your own conclusions, they're just opening the door.
But if it's the whole captivating the audience that's what important then maybe we should have a lot more celebrity boxing on TV cause that captivated the audience, so it did it's job does that mean it's art?
I don't think so.
me again...I recommend you go see "Panic Room". It's not going to win any awards, but nice tidy thriller that you might enjoy for a couple of hours.
DO NOT go see "Death to Smoochy". The main problem with this movie is that there are too many POVs and as a satire, it just doesn't work. And it ain't that funny.
The above are opinions. The right opinions, mind you, but opinions nonetheless.
"What's that sign say?"
"No bare feet."
"What's that other sign say?"
"No fighting."
"What's it mean?"
"No fighting."
Re: 2001
See FAQ's comments. Also, Clarke and Kubrick wanted to make a movie about evolution. 2001 was the result. See "The Making of 2001: A Space Odyssey (Modern Library the Movies); nifty and interesting book.
Re: The TRUTH:
Brian,
You are correct that the role of the artist encompasses many things, but, above all, the artist _is_ trying to get at something. The artist is trying to tell _us_ something. We call that something the "truth", but it's really about trying to say, "Enough with the bullshit, this is what it really means." See my previous post and reference to "The Things They Carried".
We may or may not agree with that "truth", but the real artist has a responsibility to his/her audience to communicate their ideas so that the audience sees a different perspective. It's not about luck and its not about misleading the audience. So, I beg to differ with you on the role of the Artist as opposed to the Hack and the Pundit. Pretentious? Maybe, but I see the Artist as the only child able to tell us when the emperor has no clothes.
And just so there's no confusion about Artist Responsibility: An Artist HAS a responsibility to communicate to a given audience their message. They don't have a responsibility to produce art for you or me, but they do have a responsibility that when they do produce art, that what they are trying to say is communicated well. As HE as said before, it takes a certain amount of conceit to produce something and want others to read or view what you've produced and to take time out of their lives to acknowledge what the artist has produced. It's only right that the artist be responsible to speak clearly.
By the way, I was typing this when Michael produced his thoughts on the topic. Needless to say, I agree. Well said, Michael.
Not to intrude on all the baseball/movie talk, folks, but the role of the artist is something I've spent my whole life trying to define. Here's my personal take on it...
For my money, the artist is SUPPOSED to reveal the truth. Not Truth with a capital T, but his or her personal truth or thruths, even if it's just for the moment. There are no universal truths when it comes to human emotion, or even the human condition...but I strongly feel that if any art does not contain some form of revelation regarding the artist's personal reality, then it simply isn't as engaging as it should be. Yes, there is the art that is designed "just" to entertain, but even in the silliest fluff, an audience wants to come away with the sense that they have been shown a bit of the internal realities of the person behind the art. When our patron of the BBS writes a story, is there not a passionate revelation behind what we think of as the best of his tales? If cookie were to sing without a passion for the song, for the truth of the moment, wouldn't she sound about as interesting as, say, Michael Jackson? The culmination of the artistic impulse is when the viewer, regardless of the specific media, is moved in some way by the work. To my mind, that can only occur when the artist is absolutely honest about and open to revealing an inner truth which comes from his or her deepest reality. That, to me, is not only the nature of art, but the purpose of art altogether.
Regarding my own personal medium, the stage... well, it's frequently a difficult line to walk. While the performer must be faithful to the written words, and hence, the intent of the writer, one must also strive to make those realities of script and circumstance hold true to the internal human. In other words, while the emotional reality is contrived as to when and where it happens, it still requires that the performer be absolutely honest in revealing HOW that emotion affects that particular individual. It is (and should be) hard work. It is that kind of honesty that separates the great from the mediocre.
Whew....can you tell that I teach this stuff?
My mentor's favorite quote was from Lawrence Olivier: "I know of no greater calling than that of the artist...to teach the human heart the knowledge of itself." I have tried to live up to that since the first time he quoted it to me.
Thanks for the soapbox.
Michael
stepping off the box, lighting a cigarette, and clackity-clacking back into the fog...
Jim:
2001 and those rumours.
Where did you hear this stuff. I cam imagine Doug Trumbull coming around your house and beating the crap out of you as he was the man who designed the slitscan machine that created the stargate sequence.
It wouldn't surprise me if Saul Bass was approached for advice but I have never heard that he created it. Incidentally, a lot of visual FX talent were initally consulted for 2001 including Derek Meddings crew when they worked on Thunderbird and a hack Italian film director who had experience with low budget SF material (I forget his name but he did gems such as the barbarian movie Yor).
As for the Star child, it was sculpted by a woman who was later killed in a car accident. I forget her name but she also worked on the C3PO suit for Star Wars. If Scientology had made such inroads into the film making community at that time, why didn't any of these professionals help Mr Hubbard when he got the film making bug later on in life? (Have a look at Bare Faced Messiah for more details)
Incidentally - The only time I heard Saul Bass go on about Psycho was in an TV interview and he did say that Hitchcock followed his storyboards religiously. I don't know whether he claims to have actually been on set directing the action, though Janet Leigh has confirmed that Hitchcock was on set and publicity photos confirm this. So he was responsible for visualising the sequence and editing it before it was shot but this leads to the debate on how much contribution a storyboard editor gives to a film before footage is even shot. It depends on how closely the director decides to follow what the inital plan was.
Trivia - Saul Bass directed a strange feature film in the seventies called Phase IV about ants who suddenly become intelligent and attack a research station. Quite well done with some startling images (especially with the Ants counting their dead) but Bass was denied final cut on the film and his ending was changed. A pity as he had already directed quite a few, hard to get, short films which had recieved good critical notices. The novelisation to the Phase IV script was by Barry Malzberg. If anyone sees a copy in the UK let me know, I'd be more than interested in purchasing it.
FAQ
GARY CARTER: It's insane that he's not in the Hall of Fame. I hated the bastard during the peak of my Mets-hating days but he's one of the 10 best catchers of all-time.
JACK MORRIS: It's insane that he gets ANY votes for the Hall of Fame. He was a slightly above average pitcher who got tons of run support from big-time offenses in Detroit in the 80's. He's a perfect example of why W-L record is a stat that shouldn't even exist. Teams win games, not players. In 1992, Morris had a 4.04 ERA, barely league average... and a 21-6 record. He had some fine seasons in the mid-80's. Mostly bad seasons after that. Never finished better than 5th in his league in ERA and only finished Top 10 in ERA 5 times. Never won a Cy (highest finish was 3rd in voting), never got an MVP vote. Has a 4.08 career ERA.
His reputation is built on a great 1991 World Series (and he was brilliant in it) World Series games... but everyone ignores the post-season games when he pitched poorly. He went 0-2 just the next year in the Series with a 8.44 ERA. Selective memory. We love our myths. Morris deserves a lot of credit for being one of the most durable pitchers of his era. He was a true workhorse. Beyond that, there's absolutely nothing - not a thing - on his resume to merit HoF consideration.
Now Bert Blyleven, on the other hand, clearly deserves to be in. But that's a different story.
THE ENDING OF 2001: I always assumed it was directed by Michael Bay.
To Jim Davis, re rumors about 2001's finale: You are kidding, right?
(No, I'm not missing a joke. I know that Bass claims credit for the battles of _Spartacus_ and the shower sequence in _Psycho_, which is probably your jumping-off point. It's just that a _lot_ of crazy rumors go around, and those are just plausible enough for people to believe'em.)
To Jason K. I don't think you can be more wrong about the role of the artist. No, I don't think the artist's job is to find and communicate truth _at all_. That's the job of a scientist or a journalist. Artists perform _many_ jobs, depending on the mood at the time. An artist may simply entertain. An artist may comment about the world he or she lives in. An artist may just want the audience to reconsider their own ideas, without telling them what "the truth" is. And there are a lot of artists whose job it is to obfuscate, mislead, dazzle, and entertain in order to persuade you of something that's _not_ true.
After all, if you're going to tell the truth, how would you go about _finding_ it? You'd need to do a lot of research, and compile large amounts of information. You'd have to draw inferences, and test how reasonable these inferences are. You'd have to draw from a wide range of knowledge to evaluate what you're learning. While artists have many virtues, they're not exactly _trained_ to do this.
I can think of any number of artists whose work I admire, and whose appraisal of "the truth" strikes me as, well, lacking. I think Oliver Stone's one of the most adventurous and interesting filmmakers working, but _JFK_ was a melange of interesting fact and wild speculation, and _Nixon_ was well-crafted bilge. The late comedian Bill Hicks was a sharp, intelligent guy, and his routines are chock full of punget political observations-- doesn't mean I regard his routines to be "The Truth."
And on the really _low_ end of things, there are a lot of "artists" out there whose work is just Godawful nonsense. I recommend RObert Hughes' extended essay _The Culture of Complaint_ for some hair-raising examples (as well as some damn fine writing).
Well, now that we solved Phil Niekro, what about Gary Carter and Jack Morris?
Jason K. -- That's a pretty irritating line from *West Wing*, eh? I'm not sure what type of poetry the 'Poet laureate' was supposed to be writing, but based on the level of the discussion about art and the recurring couplets joke, I can only assume that she was the lead writer for Hallmark.
Jon
Harlan's "From A to Z, In the Sarsaparilla Alphabet" has been nominated for an Bram Stoker award in the Long Fiction category. Since it's my never-humble opinion that it's one of his best stories ever, I hope it kicks ass and brings home yet ANOTHER tchotchke for Harlan's groaning shelves.
ON 2001: Even if there ARE more errors in it than just the liquid-settling-in-the-straw, 2001 still qualifies as one of the most scientifically-accurate representations of space travel ever filmed. Something like ARMAGEDDON--which is so riddled with mistakes and outright fabrications of fact, it shouldn't even be described as SF--just shows how little modern filmmakers have learned from Kubrick's masterpiece. (And people wonder why scientific illiteracy is so high.)
What do the Kubrick fanatics here think about the recent revelations that the Star Gate sequence was actually directed by Saul Bass, and the Star Child was modeled after an infant photo of L. R*n H*bb*rd? I must admit, they HAVE tarnished Kubrick's reputation a little bit, in my eyes.
JASON K: Harlan may disagree, but I think that statement summed up the job of the artist very well. I'm not saying Truth or any of the other Eternal Verities can't be expressed in a work of Art, but if said work doesn't entertain me, or at least hold my attention for even the briefest of moments, then it has basically failed in its job. Honestly, who reads a book, or watches a movie, or listens to a recording, and DOESN'T hope to be entertained by the experience? I'm not discounting all of the revelatory things Art teaches, but they're ALWAYS secondary to, and encased within, the pleasure of the work itself. If an artist forgets this, then his/her work usually becomes too turgid and self-important to convey ANYTHING, let alone the "truth".
Or am I full of crap for thinking this?
Rick~ If you look under League Rules, Lineup Changes, it explains that lineup changes are only allowed weekly. It does have some stuff about the DL, but you'll have to read it as it was mostly Greek to me.
L.
I don't know how many of you have ever been to televisionwithoutpity.com it's a webstie where people recap the events of various tv dramas, in a humourous fashion with a bit of an attitude. They mock the shows and the characters somewhat, and when the episode is bad they usually tear it to shreds. It's a fun read. Anyway, The recap for West wing is up and they brought to light a sentence that I didn't really catch when I watched it, and after reading the line, I find myself having lost a lot morer respect for the man then after he was found carrying drugs. The character that said this was the Poet Laureate for the United States, someone we would presume to be a writer of renoun and talent. She said "Do you think that I think that the artist's job is to speak the truth? An artist's job is to captivate you for however long we ask for your attention. If we stumble into truth, we got lucky. And I don't get to decide." I cannot think of a statemnt that could be more wrong when it comes to discussing the job of the artist. I'm pretty sure Harlan has spoken a great deal on the subject of Art, and he would most emphatically disagree. Apparently Sorkin has said this outside of the context of the show and used it to describe his own job when questioned about his responisbility with this tv show, so he apparently he velieves it to be true. The question I have now is, how does some someone who has a great talent for writing, someone who has really connected with both the audience and his peers, be so totally off about the job of an artist?
Okay WTH - put Jeff Kent on DL since he was put on DL, added Eric Young to replace him - but it said that's my lineup for 4/8/2002! They don't have to wait 8 days to bring up a guy to replace someone on DL in MLB! Can anyone help?
Dear Harlan,
I can only assume that this will sound stupid, but I have a couple questions for you. Here goes:
I have recently ventured into writing (and having someone give a damn about it) and I have written for a "retro culture" magazine and been "published" on their website. They'd like me to do more work for them and I'd like that as well, but at this point my concerns are about ownership of what I write. Trust me, I'd turn to a book like Writers' Market for the answer but I'm a tad on the po' side when it comes to buying books (and my library never seems to have it in) so I thought I'd ask you your thoughts. Your thoughts may be along the lines that I'm nothing but a slack-ass waste of time, but I'm hoping this catches you on a good day.
My second question may be a bit more...ah, you'll see. I read recently that you did your pal Peter David the pleasure of being his best man. I'm finding this to be a hard thing to choose for my own upcoming nuptials since my best guy pal from high school...well, it's just doesn't seem like we're all that close anymore, and my only other close guy-type pal is my boss. Nice as he may be, when I stop working for him will he still be in my life?
Now, I don't know you and vice versa, but I'm a nice guy raised by a saint of a mother and I'm marrying a wonderful lady this October. I went on about her a couple months back saying how lucky I was and all. Corny? Sure, but true nonetheless. Anyway, I'd like to offer you the gig as best man. We're having the rehearsal dinner at the best greek restaurant in town. You can wear your own clothes...hell, I don't even care if you wear pants or not! Just thought I would ask.
See, I told you my questions were stupid.
Apologizing for the past five minutes of your life that you'll never get back onnacounta me,
Sincerely,
Tony Adams
I am watching "The Specials" on SciFi Channel, and can I just say, W - T - F?! I don't know whether to laugh or gouge my eyes out! At least Mystery Men had Jeanine Garafalo in it. And what's worse is that I *can't* tear myself away! It's like a car crash that goes on and on and on! I'm even thinking I must find a copy on DVD because people will not believe me when I tell them about this movie!
L.
PS. Best overheard line while channel surfing.
Chevy Chase: Anyone ever tell you you're bad luck?
Randy Quaid: You know, those were my mother's dying words. But when you're covered in third degree burns and caught in a bear trap, you're liable to talk crazy like that.
A quick addition, after a brief checking of fact:
Phil Neikro was inducted into the HOF in 1997; a writer's selection.
B-O-S
Gods, now I have to put up with two Phanatics; I've always rooted for the Expos in the NL, Blue Jays in the AL (the DH does make it a different game). In the late '70's, watching Carlton mow down Dawson, Carter, Parrish and Rodney Scott virtually ever September to steal the NL East from Montreal would kill me. No question that I think Carlton superior to Ryan, Ryan comes closer to Cy Young in my books: longevity was as much a key to his success as pitching. Cy Young didn't have a very good winning percentage either, but he certainly piled up enough years.
Funny, but Ryan gave up one of the longest home runs to Dawson in Expos history...They marked the chair he'd hit it to; over 500 feet from the plate.
Surprised that Phil Neikro isn't in the HOF, considering that Gaylord Perry made it. If the ol' spit baller could get in, why not Phil? At least with Neikro the catcher didn't have to wring out his glove every inning.
New Ben and Jerry's flavour: Fungo Cherry, to be served "In the Summertime...When the weather is high..."
Bag-O-Scott
From the depths of the unseen memory banks, my impressions of Nolan Ryan bubble up. I think I was 9 or 10, and not only did he sign an autograph, when the security guards got all uppity about people from the cheap seats coming down to the dugout to see the players, he told the guy to leave us alone.
Now, I confess, I never saw him wheel a junkie in mid-OD seizure into a hospital room and forge the charts so she got treatment, but when you're nine years old and your heroes are all twenty feet tall anyway, stickin' up for the kids makes a HUGE impression.
He'll always be tops in my books. (Go 'Stros!)
L.
PS. Susan & Harlan ~ Have you made dinner plans for next Friday night in Fresno yet?
Steve Carlton was a subtantially better pitcher than Nolan Ryan - there's really no comparison. And this was universally thought to be the case while both players were active as evidenced by Carlton's 4 Cy Youngs to Ryan's ZERO and Carlton's 5 Top 10 MVP finishes to Ryan's sum total of 0 lifetime MVP votes. Only the Ryan legend has gotten people so addled today that they would actually say something as silly as "Ryan was better than Carlton" (nobody here said that - I'm just talking about all the brainless fans who vote for Ryan in polls.)
As for the fielding issue, Ryan pitched 26 seasons and 5319 innings - chances are pretty overwhelming that any seasons with bad defense behind him were matched by seasons with good defense. And there may be no pitcher ever for whom defense was less important than for Ryan - fewer batters put the ball in play against him than any other pitcher except maybe Randy Johnson nowadays.
[unbelievably foul expletives deleted] Pirates
Thanks for keeping an eye out for piracy, kids (especially Heather this time). The vultures have been released.
Oh. I almost forgot. HI, BELINDA!
That's what brought me to Ellison in the first place. Ain't you glad? *laugh*
The Amblin777@aol.com replied and said to forward a resume. I'm realistic--they generally want kids for jobs like these, but what the hey. Tis cool to put one's foot in it.
In anything, for that matter.
I had some customer come up to me at work last week. She said her boyfriend was looking for help. He runs a gas station. Dunno what the job is--maybe a cashier. Thing is, she was impressed with the way I did my job. That, in and of itself, was a kick. It's nice when SOMEBODY notices how hard one works. But hey, I'm not complaining; this was a fun gig to do. Got to meet a plethora of kids. Got to realize there are some things I can do (quite well, I might add) and influenced a few people--for the better, I think.
That's all life is about, in my view.
Heather, will work for long-lasting, fine point black pens.
Rose the trivia bot:
It's Robert BLOCH...not Block. Pronounced the same but spelled differently. Are there other typos there? I don't know. I stopped reading because of the road "Block." It's bad enough most of the people out there love the movie PSYCHO but don't know who Robert Bloch is, but can't those in the know at least spell his name right? A great writer like Bloch deserves a little more honor from fans who mention him.
Bill
jumping off the soapbox
I have to agree on Niekro's being Hall-worthy.
One thing on the Ryan-Carlton comparison, though: You have to consider what I call "fielding support." Realize that the core Phillies team Carlton played for got scads of Golden Gloves year-in and year-out--Ryan never really had that luxury. As Jon said, after the ball leaves the bat, it's for the most part out of the pitcher's hands.
Of course, I love Lefty, nutball genius that he was. I HAVE to; I'm a dyed red (once dyed-maroon) Phillies fan.
Heigh Ho, all. Taking a break from ether rodent activities, and wiping of children's chocolate smeared faces. Having a great day here; hope all others are enjoying whatever festivities you're holding, if any.
Well, I do agree on the issue of Neikro's superiority to Ryan, based on consistency and Neikro showing better control. Face it, with the Ryan Express, you got feast or famine pitching; most teams would simply wait for the fourth or fifth inning and just nibble away at him until his control faded, then touch him up for three of four. Often, that would be enough to chase him.
Still, I find a better comparative to Ryan in Steve Carlton. Lefty's numbers, like Neikro's, match up very well with Ryan's and he too had the added bonus of better control. Carton's slider was death to both left and right-handed hitters, often witnessed by yours truly as he would choke the life out of a very good Expos offense year after year in the late seventies. Moreover, unlike Ryan and Neikro, Carlton won championships.
Opening Night for the vaunted attack of "I Have No Bat And I Must Bunt" as they start their drive straight to the cellar of Webderland Park...Manager Bag-O-Scott insists on the players greasing their bodies to make the slide downhill easier.
woops that intro came out a little discombobulated
hope you all understand :)
question |answer| accepted answer
HHey all science fiction fans
We are working on a science fiction trivia game bot for the IRC #scifi channel on efnet.
If anyone wants to contribute questions
email thawn35@yahoo.com as he is compiling all the questions
Its coded in TCL.
Some of the questions are really basic science fiction trivia so you people who know everything there ever was about scifi should add some tougher questions. thanks :)
oh yeah, please feel free to make your own catagories. and if you want to add your name to the
This is the version thats 'under construction' so it wouldn't run with
the bot but its a bit easyer to read. The only difference is that the final
product doesn't have any categories or is sorted.
questions, do so at the beginning like this then question then answer
--==RANDOM==--
What mental state were they trying to hide in A.E. Van Vogt's "Slan"?|telepathy|telepathy
Who killed Juliet in Robert Block's "A Toy for Juliet" |Jack the Ripper|Jack the Ripper
In "Further Reminiscences of Ijon Tichy" by Stanislav Lem, what sort of machine evolved at a rapid pace?|washing machine|washing machine
--==STAR WARS==--
What kind of creature was Chewbacca in "Star Wars"?|A Wookiee|*wookiee*
This was the sequel to "Star Wars".|The Empire Strikes Back|*empire strikes back*
This was the sequel to "The Empire Strikes Back".|Return of the Jedi|*return of the jedi*
Who is the voice of Darth Vader? (Full name, please)|James Earl Jones|James Earl Jones
Who was C3PO's sidekick in "Star Wars"?|R2D2|r2d2
What was Sir Alec Guinness's role in "Star Wars"? (Full name, please)|Obi-wan-Kenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi
What was the name of Luke's strange little advisor in "The Empire Strikes Back"?|Yoda|yoda
Who portrayed Han Solo in "Star Wars"? (Full name, please)|Harrison Ford|harrison ford
He was the villain in "Star Wars".|Darth Vader|darth vader
What was the name of Han Solo's spaceship in "Star Wars"?|The Millenium Falcon|*millenium falcon*
--==STAR TREK==--
In what movies is the antiheisenberg generator used?|*star trek*
What color is Spock's blood?|Green|green
What is a Ferengi's most erogenous zone?|Their Ears|ear*
--==HITCHHIKER==--
According to "The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy" this fish allows you to understand all languages in the galaxy if you put it in your ear.|The Babel fish|*babel*
According to "The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy" this man won an award for designing the country Norway.|Slartibartfast|*slartibartfast*
According to "The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy" this computer was built to find the ultimate answer of life, the universe and everything|Deep Thought|deep thought
According to "The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy" this computer was built to find the ultimate question to the ultimate answer of life, the universe and everything.|The Earth|*earth*
--==MOVIES/TV SHOW==--
In Independence Day which character said "Take my word for it. There's no Area 51!"|The President|*president
At the end of "Planet of the Apes" what protruded from the rocks?|The Statue of Liberty|*statue of liberty*
He played Superman in the 1978 movie version.|Christopher Reeves|*reeve*
She played Lois Lane in the 1978 film version of "Superman".|Margot Kidder|*kidder*
Who played "Robin" to Val Kilmer's "Batman"?|Chris O'Donnell|*donnell*
Which planet was the "Planet of the Apes"?|Earth|earth
He directed the movie E.T.|Steven Spielberg|*spielberg*
From what movie is this quote: "If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes"?|bladerunner
In the TV-Show LEXX, what is the name of the substance that keeps Kai "alive"?|protoblood
Fill In the blank from "Babylon 5": Sheridan's last sentence in the final episode was "the _____ is up."|sun|sun
In the movie "Forbidden Planet" what was the name of the planet the astronauts went to? (number of planet not required)|Altair|Altair
In "Battlestar Galactica" what race is the primary enemy of the humans?|Cylons|Cylon*
In the TV series "Futurama" what is the first and last name of the captain who Leela eventually has sex with?|Zap Brannigan|Zap Brannigan
Who plays Dana Scully on The X-Files?|Gillian Anderson|gillian anderson
Who plays Deckard in the movie Blade Runner?|Harrison Ford|harrison ford
Who played Steve Austin on the Six Million Dollar Man?|Lee Majors|lee majors
Who was the Highlander in the movie by that name?|Christopher Lambert|cristopher lambert
What do you see at the end of the movie Planet of the Apes?|The remains of the Statue of Liberty|*statue of liberty*
Who wrote & directed the horrible yet entertaining movie Plan 9 From Outer Space?|Ed Wood|ed wood
"Danger Will Robinson" is from....|Lost In Space|lost in space
In the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, what did a man build a model of out of mashed potatoes?|A Mountain|*mountain
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "The highest form of life in the universe is Man and the lowest is a man who works for the post office."|Holly|holly
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "Well, now I know why dogs lick their testicles -- it's to take away the taste of their food."|Lister|lister
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "The question is this: Given that God is infinite, and that the universe is also infinite, would you like a toasted tea-cake?"|The toaster|*toaster
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast."|Ace|ace
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "It's the last thing they'll be expecting -- a daylight charge over the minefield."|Rimmer|rimmer
In "Red Dwarf", who said: "It's an obscene phone call, sir. I think it's for you."|Kryten|kryten
--==MISC (MOVIE/BOOK/?)==--
What was the name of the ship Ripley and co. used in "Alien"?|The Nostromo|*nostromo
Name the house who tried to conquer "Dune" that begins with the letter "H"?|Harkonnen|Harkonnen
In "Flash Gordon" who ruled the kingdom of Mongo?|Emperor Ming the Merciless|*ming*
What is the name of the computer that kills much of the crew in 2001: A Space Odyssey?|HAL|hal
--==BOOK==--
Finish the Asimov related sentence: "A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a..."|human being to come to harm|human being to come to harm
What is the first name of the main character in Larry Niven's "Ringworld"?|Louis|Louis
In William Gibson's "Neuromancer" what is another word for "virtual reality"?|matrix|*matrix
What type of brain does Asimov most commonly use for his more intelligent robots?|positronic|positronic
What is the name of the material that was used to construct the ringworld?|Scrith|scrith
Before it was captured by Sauron, what was Minas Morgul called?|Minas Ithil|minas ithil
This book first introduced the positronic brain.|I, Robot by Asimov|i, robot
In "The Reality Dysfunction" what is the name of Joshua Calvert's spaceship?|Lady Macbeth|*macbeth
What was the name of the alien race that could live on as a kind of "ghosts" after they died in Timothy Zahn's "Conqueror's" novels?|The Zhirrzh|*zhirrzh
In Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, the aliens look like...|Devils|devils
Who wrote the book "Dune"? (full name)|Frank Herbert|frank herbert
Who wrote the novel "Alien"? (Full name, please)|Alan Dean Foster|alan dean foster
The first science-fiction horror/thriller, written by an 18-year-old girl, was published March 11, 1818. What was it?|Frankenstein|frankenstein
TO ADD:
In "Futurama" what is the name of the spacefaring delivery company that Fry is an employee of?|Planet Express|Planet Express
What device allows the doctor in "Star Trek: Voyager" to travel on away missions with the crew?|mobile emitter|mobile emitter
In "Futurama" what is the TV show for which the Omicrons threaten to destroy the earth if they can't see the last episode?|Single Female Lawyer|Single Female Lawyer
Which character shares an apartment with Fry in the "Futurama" episode "I, Roommate"?|Bender|Bender
In "Neuromancer" who is the main female partner of Case?|Molly|Molly
What is the slang term for computer security programs in "Neuromancer"?|ice|ice
A hacker in "Neuromancer" is called what?|jockey|jockey
What organization did Chakotay belong to before he joined the crew of "Voyager"?|Maquis|Maquis
In the finale episode for season 2 of "Futurama" what machine does Professor Farnsworth invent?|what if|what if
What is the name of the robot in "Futurama" who is an exact duplicate of Bender except he has a goatee?|Flexo|Flexo
Jon,
Nolan Ryan was a great pitcher but your point is an accurate one. Niekro was every bit as good and perhaps better than Ryan.
Ryan is the most overrated pitcher in the history of the game. He is remembered today as a candidate for "greatest pitcher ever" only because his skillset was so unique and because he pitched very well into his mid-40's. Ryan did the "sexy" things - he got tons of strikeouts and pitched no-hitters. That grabs headlines. But it doesn't make him better than any other pitcher who gets people out and helps his team win games.
While Ryan struck out a ton of people, he also walked a ton. He holds the career walks record by a wider margin than he does the strikeout record. People forget the Nolan Ryan of the 70's and early 80's who left numerous games in the 5th inning after issuing his 6th walk of the day.
His apotheosis is strictly revisionist history. During his careeer, nobody thought he was the best pitcher in the league. He never won a Cy Young and rarely ever finished high in the Cy Young balloting. He finished 2nd once, 3rd twice and only had 3 other Top 5 finishes. Now that's a fine mark but hardly the stuff you'd expect for a guy who today gets voted the greatest pitcher ever in silly fan polling.
Ryan's perception today would provide great fodder for psychologists who study memory and prejudices. Ryan is surely the most UNIQUE pitcher fans today can remember. Nobody did things like Ryan did. But that didn't mean he was the best. He was a hell of a pitcher and a worthy Hall of Famer but he's nowhere close to being the best pitcher ever. He's not top 20. Probably not top 50.
I'd take Niekro ahead of him.
Chris -- Actually, the balls-in-play-are-the-same findings don't strike me as all that surprising, although I'd imagine there must be weird layers of statistical off-setting going on inside the overall idea, since pitcher mistakes in ball placement and rotation would assumedly show some variation even when home run mistakes are left out. I'd guess that variations among what hitters recognize, what they do and what mistakes they make would act as some sort of control on the differences in mistakes between, say, a Tim Wakefield and a Randy Johnson.
I wonder if there's any statistical basis for the old saw that pitchers who put the ball in play less can actually generate worst fielding behind them because the fielders don't get enough to do. My guess would be that the effects would have to be minimal but might be observable.
I do find that whenever I suggest that Phil Niekro appeared to show virtually the same pitching results as Nolan Ryan with the exception of Ks and ERA (big exception) while pitching for similar (namely, mostly lousy) teams, people get grumpy. Ryan was a great pitcher, but his win-loss record really is strange, although it could be accounted for by bad luck, bad teams, and Ryan facing the ace of the opposing staff far more often than Niekro ever did (if the last is true -- it may not be). But why Niekro gets flagged as non-Hall-of-Fame material mainly because of his winning percentage while Ryan's winning percentage tends to get "yes, butted" out of consideration strikes me as being unfair to Niekro.
Heather -- Look out: Jesse Ventura may cross the border to attempt to stop Winnipeg film production at any moment...ha.
Also, Stephen King does devote 15 pages or so to Ellison's work in *Danse Macabre*, King's non-fiction horror study that may be out of print but is surely available in virtually any used bookstore. To quote King, "I've chosen to close this brief review of some of the elements in modern horror fiction by discussing Ellison's work because, although he repudiates the label 'horror writer,' he sums up, for me, the finest elements of the term."
Jon
CHARLIE IN ST. PETE:
Susan says call around a little after 11:00am, Los Angeles time, Monday. She needs to ask you more questions before she can render a knowledgeable opinion on your options.
Harlan
Jon,
Fielding is definitely much harder to measure than hitting. Fielding, along with teasing apart the relationship between pitching and fielding, is the final frontier for sabermetricians. We're solid on the hitting. Getting there on fielding but not there yet.
Fielding percentage is close to useless. Fielding range is useful but is badly skewed by sample size and the tendencies of the pitching staff. If a team's pitchers get lots of strikeouts, the fielders won't get a lot of plays. If they throw a lot of groundballs, the outfielders will have poor range numbers but it won't reflect ability.
The best systems right now measure fielding performance as a function of chances converted per opportunity. This takes away most of the conflating variables from the pitching staff but still isn't perfect and introduces a subjective element to the statistics as observers must determine which fielding "zone" the ball was hit to.
Much worse is trying to figure out what is pitching and what is fielding. Sounds like a silly question but it gets very complicated. How much of the variance in runs allowed is due to the pitcher and how much to the fielder(s)? One interesting recent finding is tough to believe but is borne out by the evidence.
On balls put into play, pitchers exhibit little or no difference in ability to control hits. What that means in concrete terms is that when hitters put the ball in play against a dominant flamethrower like Randy Johnson or a mediocre soft-tosser like Gil Heredia or John Halama, the same results are seen. The same % of hits, extra-base hits (not home runs - that's a different story). Whether it's Randy or a stiff. Once the ball is put into play, it's in the hands of the defense and the pitcher has very little to do with the results.
Tough to believe but true.
Stats are weird.
WASHU: Yes, women generally have it bettera than men with regard to aging, but bear in mind that the oldest celebrity (at least as far as the people at alt.obituaries originally decided) was Broadway imresario George Abbott at 107, who directed his last play at 102 and was still producing and reviewing script revisions on a show the month of his death.
(Of course, author Marjory Stoneman Douglas beat Abbott by one year, but wasn't as famous ...)
Bill, I think the white background is the key..especially with all that blood on the back.
Oh, and how ironic..I used my purchase as a plea to Steve to help Harlan and guess what?.. the intro (which I'd read only a paragraph or two of in the store) ended with Steve trumpeting the efforts of people who write short stories..
Too bad he couldn't mention Harlan. Heh.
Steve's cool. I've listened to a few of his audiobooks (or whatever they're called) and when I read his stories aloud (as I did last night with the first and part of the second stories) I could hear Steve's twang.
What a fucking cool dude he is. Power to the King! *laugh*
Heather
P.S. He made a nice chunk of change on "Riding the Bullet" and made comment of this in the intro. There ya go...
I replied to the ad with my own address--not an issue, I get lots of crap email, as it is--but did not include a specific resume. My email was to the point--this writing gig is helpful, in that sense--and I prefaced it with a caveat as to the job's origin. Nothing's bounced so far, but we'll see.
I was walking through the parking lot of the courthouse building in the downtown, last weekend. The streets were lined with movie vans. There is definitely a lot of activity these days in Winnipeg, for movie types.. but you are right, Jon, I'll be careful. Thanks.
Oh, and I bought some cheese popcorn last night and needed a popcorn movie to go with it, so I went to see "Blade 2." Cool. I think Wesley Snipes is a sexy dude. To paraphrase what my computer geeks used to say when some hot female left the office...
"_I'd_ fuck him."
Heh.
H
Ah, the dead-ball era. I'm still working my way through a biography of John McGraw. I still think Robert Creamer's bio of Babe Ruth is the best baseball player biography I've read, but the McGraw book is pretty good.
Stephen Jay Gould's essay(s) on fielding percentages et al. is/are pretty interesting. As the SI baseball preview issue notes, statistics don't form a great model for looking at fielding acumen, at least not in the same way that stats can explain a lot about the value of hitters. The SI preview also has several interesting pieces aabout baseball bats, if you're interested in these objects, although I'd have liked a history of the origins of "boning" bats.
Religious action figures: Well, gee, Jay, I could go down to the local dollar store and get you a couple of $1 key chains with famous scenes from Christ's adventures on them. When you jiggle them, it's sort of like Christ's in action.
Mmmm....religious cheese...it's sacrilicious!
Of course, as I write this, my 6-foot Superman stand-up with he big wooden cross around his neck and the golden Christmas bells around his head is glaring at me, so....
Jon
Heather --
Amblin is/was the name of Spielberg's production company. I can't imagine them having an email address (even if complete) like the one you've listed. Check it out carefully.
Cheers,
Jon
Okay, geekheads, listen up...
I was perusing the Winnipeg Free Press this morning, looking for work, and came upon this ad:
Los Angeles based Producer currently preparing movie for Wpg. req. F/T Assistant to June 1. Poss. extension. Able to travel & commit 24/6, have good organizing skills & knowledge of MAC. $750/wk. Forward resume Amblin777@aol
Submitted on (03/28/2002)
Sounds neat, huh? One problem...look at the email address; it's incomplete. I'm looking for an opinion here. Is this just a bogus ad or what?
I realize we've been getting a lot more interest from the movie industry lately, up here in Canada, particular Winnipeg as the dollar and living expenses are low here. Thought I might check out this job (and I still will--I plan to send a resume to aol.ca and aol.com on the chance some typesetter merely made a mistake) but what's YOUR take on this, hmm?
Heather, give me a break, I was just looking for a job, not a mystery.
Washu,
Ringu is commercially unavailable in the USA right now, but is available through Amazon UK as a Region 2 DVD. You need a region free DVD player, but seeing as you watch Anime I imagine you're already set on this. Here's the direct link for purchase. at about $28 US:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000058CB6/o/qid%3D1003843984/sr%3D2-1/ref%3Dsr%5Fbt%5F1/202-1476007-1035828
Jay,
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this, but here's a purchase link for the best Christ figure ever:
http://store.yahoo.com/jsbstash/budchrisdass1.html
Regards,
Joseph
Jon,
You're right. Strikeouts have steadily increased by decade as players continue to learn and adapt. Making contact was very important in the earlier days of baseball because field conditions and equipment were terrible and errors were very common. Many a game finished with more unearned runs than earned runs. Additionally, the ball resembled a three week old calf's brain wrapped in wet cheesecloth and wasn't going to be hit 400 feet no matter how hard you swung. Also, everyone was much smaller then with less upper body strength.
Errors have dropped steadily to the point today when they are almost irrelevant. Each team only commits a little more than one error every other game and fielding range is also improved. Therefore, the benefit of making contact has diminished and as strength has increased for hitters, swinging for the fences has become a more viable strategy.
Strikeouts were at an all-time high last year and most of the strikeout leaders were also the best hitters. There is the occasional Jose Hernandez-type stiff who sneaks on but I don't think anybody is complaining about all of Sammy Sosa's strikeouts.
Strike-outs: I'll stay out of the sabermetrics of the K -- the K/DP ratio sounds pretty reasonable.
If you're feeling like a wonk, take a look at career and season K-highs sometime. Some of the vilification of the K comes about because it's more 'new school' than 'old school.' Reggie Jackson is still the king of the K life-time; the K seems to be associated with the DH position and 'me-first' ballplayers and one-skill power anomalies and other challenges to 'baseball-the-way-it-outta-be.' The K was associated with Reggie and Bobby Bonds and Dave Kingman at the top end, and all-power, no-average anomalies like Steve Balboni (remember him?) among average players for a long time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the new strikeout kings are odd because they also draw a lot of walks -- the Oakland A's of the last few years struck out their fair share, but that's a by-product of power, and they also knew how to take bad pitches.
The Queen Mother: Here's a lesson the British monarchy could learn from: their most beloved member never thought she'd be in the position she came into because of the abdication. Being Scottish and setting an example during the Blitz didn't hurt either.
Cheers,
Jon
Konnichi wa, folks!
CINDY: Thanks for the words of encouragement (a lot), but there's also a huge glaring fact: girls usually have it easier when it comes to lifespans. There's just something about the male body that burns itself out faster than the female's. My grandmother is 84 now, and although frail her mental capabilties are fully intact. Actually, my grandad was pretty tough himself until alzheimer's made the last years of his life absolutely unbearable beyond words.
But you do have a point about keeping active all the time. (or at least as active as your weakening shell permits you.) Hmmmmm....
On a different note, does anyone here know where I can locate Hideo Nakata's RINGU? It's a horror film from Japan about a mysterious video tape that brings a horrible fate to whoever watches it. It sounds ludicrous, but the way the movie is executed is supposed to be superb. Hollywood's apparently doing a (badda-bing) remake, this time with a tried-and-true 'SCREAM' cast. Eeeeeyuhhhhhhhh.....
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
RE: The sexual/religious site Alex mentioned
That certainly brings a whole new meaning to "The power of Christ compels you!"
From AP wire!
Ray Bradbury, the author of "The Martian
Chronicles" and other classic science fiction novels, will receive the
2,193rd star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame on Monday.
Way to go Mr.Bradbury!
Can Harlan's star be far behind?
Bundles and bushels of thanks to HE for the essay explanation--it's great to know that all those funny/horrific tales actually happened, in one form or another. I do hope you write the autobiography, though--I think it would be fascinating.
I think one meaningful aspect of the biographical essays is that the sheer audacious spirit of living expressed in them is somewhat inspiring. It may be that everyone else is out there carping their diems, but I spend the majority of my days living my quietly desperate life, listening to people preaching the virtues of apathy and keeping under the radar. Reading about people who act with the strength of their convictions and break convention to do what they want, regardless of expectations is fairly inspiring for me. I still feel spineless, but I'm motivated to try harder to develop one.
As a side note, it is an exceptionally large number of worthwhile people the Earth lost this week. I'll be sending sweet thoughts across the beam for them for awhile...
Brian,
Seeing as Kubrick was perfect, by definition we cannot fault him for anything.
Don't anyone sass me on this one. Even atheists need their deities.
Alex,
There are some points leagues which take off for strikeouts but I've never played in one and Webderland isn't one of them. You'd be right about Sexson in a league like that.
However, your take on the strikeout in real baseball is incorrect. A strikeout is no worse than any other out in baseball. Yes, you don't advance the runner but you also don't hit into a double play. Research has determined the two factors balance each other out almost perfectly. Technically speaking, a strikeout is about .01% worse than a non-strikeout out. If you turned an entire team's outs into strikeouts, they'd score about 10 fewer runs in an entire season than they would have with a normal distribution of outs.
Sometimes baseball people get upset by strikeouts but there's simply no reason for it - they just don't look good. In terms of how it impacts the team's offense, they are a non-factor.
This message brought to you by the baseball stat geeks of America and the letter K.
CHRIS L: Sorry I missed your comments about my feelings on Sexson versus LoDuca. In the league I was in, the ten of us had the pick of the entire league, with a very detailed points system: One for singles, doubles two, triples three, home runs four. Walks, sacrifices, Hits By Pitch, runs, and RBIs also got you a point each, and stolen bases two. Unfortunately, strikeouts and fielding errors lost you a point.
(There was an entirely different points system for pitchers.)
I think that this mirrors "real life" quite well, as it goes by simple production. Each base you get counts. A strikeout _loses_ your team a base and a chance to advance the runner. Conversely, an error _gains_ a base and sometimes an advanced runner for your opponent. I shrug. It works for me.
(and I owned Sexson and LoDuca in that league, so I got to watch their performance each night.)
JAY: Um. I want to ask just WHICH of my findings were thought so brilliant, but considering the last link I posted, I dare not.
I'm a little piqued at something I just read. I'm reading--and enjoying--I. ASIMOV right now, and he comments that after MURDER AT THE ABA, he wanted to go on to do a series of mysteries starring Darius Just, the Harlan Ellison analogue, but that Doubleday nixed the idea.
Damn. I LOVE that book, and all the Black Widowers stories, and wish that there were more Asimov mysteries out there to read.
AGE: My Uncle Lou the ex-vaudevillian is about to hit 101, and while I love him dearly and hope he could live forever, I'm sad that he doesn't have the agile wit he once did--which he still had not that long ago. I think losing my Aunt May--who herself was hilarious-- a couple years back put him into a decline. Mind you, he's still fun to be around, but there is a senility that's crept up.
I dunno. When people bitched at me for smoking, I'd often ask, "Do YOU want to be old and infirm?" Still, there's old like a Jack Williamson or a Ray Bradbury, and something like that would be much desired.
Re _2001_'s scientific errors. The stuff in the straw is one of the best-known ones, but there's a lot more-- most of which were due the constraints of the filmmakers.
For example, the centrifuge of the _Discovery_ was actually too small for actual use. It was between thirty and forty feet in diameter. If that was actually spinning fast enough to produce gravity, there'd be far too much of a differential between the highest and lowest parts of the human body-- resulting in disequilibrium and disorientation. A real centrifuge'd have to be at least 100 feet in diameter.
Also, in many scenes in the _Discovery's_ non-centrifuge areas, Poole and Bowman are seen leaning on consoles, and they use ladders to get about even when the environment would be zero-gee.
There are a few other bits-- for example, when Bowman blew the door to the space pod, where did it go? Did it just evaporate? Wouldn't the pod have been blown in the opposite direction?
But as for the question of whether we _forgive_ Kubrick for these lapses... try comparing his work to the rest of SF cinema, and he comes out leagues ahead.
I'll see your 100 and 101 and raise you.
My aunt's mother turned 106 late last year. Only four years ago did she finally have to use a wheelchair. Only in the past two years have her mental faculties begun to slip. She still tells good jokes but she only remembers just enough to get by each day. I think it's a way of economizing with limited resources.
106 years. Unbelievable. She outlived two husbands, the second one by over 40 years now.
Alex Jay - Holy SHIT. Brilliant stuff. Thanks. :)
Little Washu,
Thank you for that post of God Save The Queen. She seemed to be the kindest of the royal clan. 101 is impressive.
You could live to be 100-- my Grandmother turned 100 on St. Patrick's Day. She is the last living member of the first 4-H club in Texas so they did a story on her in the San Antonio News.
It has some statistics about how many people live to be 100 these days. I think it's all about keeping busy. My grandmother didn't stop ranching until about 4 years ago when she sold the last of her cattle. She was still feeding and fixing fence until then. My mom asked her how she managed the fence work and she said that she used the post hole digger and took her time.
She still lives alone on her 300 acre farm in the country about a half mile from where she was born and grew up.
Stay busy you'll last longer than you imagine. Sometimes she says the strangest thing is that she knows more dead people than living ones now.
She did a national 4-H commercial about a year ago-- in it she says, " Just GO for it!"
It's hilarious.
Here is the url for the news story. My Grandmother's name is Zeta Gandy.
http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=170&xlc=640131
Cindy
Now there is news that makes my eyes grow wet and my heart heavy. The Queen Mum was a spectacular star in the royal crown of nitwits. May her journey home be peaceful.
L.
JAY: I found a whole mess of religious figures for you.
At http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/sports.html you can find all manner of Jesus Sports Statues, showing the Nazarene helping kids out at their favorite sport, from baseball to martial arts to ballet ("To remind children that Jesus is with them always," sez the site.). The hockey and football ones are the best; the first has Jesus hip-checking two kids so he can get to the puck, and the second has some hapless child trying to tackle the Lamb.
At http://www.trainupachild.com/ you can get a whole line of Biblical action figures--and you even have the choice whether you want them to be light- or dark-skinned.
The Archie McPhee novelty company (http://www.mcphee.com) has a pretty okay-looking Jesus figure--as well as a Buddha-with-a-laptop squeaky toy, a RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK-looking Ark of the Covenant, the Nunzilla windup toy--or, for the more secular among us, a Sigmund Freud action figure!
The figures at the next site might not be what you want, but they're a hoot--at http://www.jesuschristsuperstore.net/ there are figures from every religious dogma and clergy. But they pack heat.
And the last site I know of, I hesitate to mention.
Ah, what the hell ...
DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED BY SEXUAL OR RELIGIOUS HUMOR--MAKE THAT *TASTELESS AND OBSCENE* SEXUAL RELIGIOUS HUMOR (yes, both), DO NOT NOT NOT GO TO THIS NEXT SITE!!!
http://www.divine-interventions.com/index2.html
(I warned you ...)
DAVID: Tried Half.com? They have NIGHT AND THE CITY and PRELUDE TO A CERTAIN MIDNIGHT.
And WOW! Amazon's used book section has a TON of Kersh (many at premium prices, but there you go)--Harlan, which Kersh books did you say you needed?
(No JEWS WITHOUT JEHOVAH, sadly ...)
Here's the long link:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-url/ix%3Dfixed-price%26fqp%3Dbrowse%0168293%02title%01gerald%20kersh%26nsp%3Dstore%01zshops-rare-books%02referring-site%01bibliofind/102-8418574-3970533
Oops...the novel Ibooks recently republished is NIGHT AND THE CITY.
B.G.
Heather:
Weird that you should mention the dust jacket of EVERYTHING'S EVENTUAL. I looked at it the night I bought it and thought how great it looked, how great all the covers have been since King went to Scribner's but didn't say anything because I thought I was having one of my weird moments. Guess not.
David:
I'm sure in your Quest for Kersh you've come across it already but ibooks came out with an edition in November and I just bought last month. Still haven't dipped in yet but intend to shortly. At the end of the novel is an essay by Paul Duncan about Kersh. The inside has a quote by HE hissownself. As far as Kersh is concerned, sometimes Ebay has something but I know I've been looking for him since one of HE's appearances on THE LATE LATE SHOW WITH TOM SNYDER and have never seen a copy of any of his books. Of course, the area I live in doesn't have much for used bookstores...
Okay, enough of my babbles. I'm going to get my tea.
Bill
God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and Glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!
O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!
Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!
Now this is mind-blowing. The Queen Mother of Britain has just passed away today. 101 years old...she reached that magic number...god almighty, what I'd do to reach 100...
And here was Eddie Izzard thinking she would go on forever.
Other than that, BEAUTIFUL DAY, WASN'T IT?!
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1085/1_102/80804768/p1/article.jhtml?term=Harlan+Ellison
Seems to be the short story, en toto...
"Never send to know for whom the lettuce wilts."
Author/s: Harlan Ellison
Issue: Jan, 2002 Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction..
Oh, and what happened to the May LOTR review? I saw another writer(?) doing it. (?) Change of plan?
As to Easter...
May the bunny be with you.
H
David,
Regarding your search for things Kersh.
Have you considered making any of your purchases from an online retailer? Both Alibris (http://www.alibris.com), and Abebooks (http://www.abebooks.com/), come highly recommended. I've done some searching at both places and come up with quite a bit of Kersh material.
-Andrew
Saw a Palestinian rally march in Halifax today. It was pretty big and mighty imposing...among the signs they bore were 'Stop the Killing' and 'CNN, Stop Taking Sides'.
I literally turned around the corner, and there they were, waving their national flag and moving down the street in a slow, gradual crawl. Right behind them was a police van, keeping an eye out, I suppose.
I'll confess that it was a surreal sight. I could do little but watch the march pass by, before returning to my happy day of seeing movies, hanging out with friends and buying DVD's. All of a sudden the effects of the present war were only a few blocks from my own college.
Call me paranoid, but there seems to be a nasty tension building all over again that was supposed to have finally snapped on September 11.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Well, so far the search for Kersh books is going zilch. Powell's had next to nothing, and Wrigley-Cross -- one of my local faves, run by a couple of genre fiction fans who once hosted a con for whose booklet HE wrote a short piece -- also had nothing.
But it's been fun doing a little biographical research on Kersh. At the age of 4, he was declared dead of lung congestion, but sat up in his coffin during the funeral.
His first novel, _Jews Without Jehovah_ in 1934, is about the ups and downs of a Jewish family in London who bicker among themselves constantly and become involved in a numbers racket and other swindles. It was on sale for less than one day because three of his uncles and a cousin felt they had been unjustly maligned by the novel and filed a libel suit against the author and publisher, who quickly withdrew the book from stores.
A review in the "Observer" described the cast as "greasy, greedy, cowardly humbugs tumbling from one disaster to another. . . . If the account were presented as a study of a race, it would be grotesquely untrue; as a comic picture of a few persons, it is grand."
Kersh sold the film rights to _Night and the City_ for $40,000 and joked afterward that he sold only the title at $10,000 a word because so much of his original plot was left out. A story from 1944's _The Horrible Dummy and Other Stories_, called "The Extraordinarily Horrible Dummy," was made into the 1945 film "Dead of Night" -- which I vaguely remember seeing once . . . Michael Redgrave, perhaps, as the ventriloquist whose identity is taken over by his dummy? (A precursor to William Goldman's _Magic_. . . .)
Kersh was a war correspondent during the London blitz and was buried alive three times. During one German bombing raid, he tried to save a manuscript but suffered permanent knee problems after he emerged from the rubble without it. Kersh surfaced in Paris just in time for the Allied liberation in 1944, and made connections with servicemen who helped him win assignments with magazines such as Esquire and the Saturday Evening Post.
One of Kersh's fans was Anthony Burgess, who particularly loved the 1957 novel _Fowlers End_, about a sadistic, avaricious cinema owner named Sam Yudenow. "I read _Fowlers End_ in darkest Borneo," Burgess reported, "at a time when it was hard to laugh, and considered it to be one of the best comic novels of the century, with Sam Yudenow as superb a creation (almost) as Falstaff."
_Contemporary Authors_ says Kersh's fiction is "peopled with dissipated characters and driven by a deep cynicism," and that Kersh has been compared to William Hogarth, the 18th century engraver and satirist. The _St. James Guide to Horror, Ghost, and Gothic Writers_ says "chilling, grisly and macabre touches abound," although Kersh also wrote a number of war novels and stories after serving in the all-volunteer Coldstream Guards.
My big purchase of the day, however, was _The Sacred Heart: an Atlas of the Body Seen Through Invasive Surgery_. I heard the author, a longtime photojournalist named Max Aquilera-Hellweg who became fascinated with surgery and eventually went back to school to become a doctor, interviewed by Terry Gross three years ago and always meant to get his book.
It's a coffee-table photo book of caesareans, spinal operations, heart transplants, an AIDS autopsy, penile implants, radical mastectomies, etc. Ghastly and gorgeous, horrifying and awe-inspiring.
JAY: And check this site out: http://www.aristotle.net/~russjohn/literary/otaf.html. (I have visions of Jesus fighting my old Star Wars and Planet of the Apes figures...)
CHUCK: Naw, I don't think there are any benefits to bathing in Thurmond's blood. But the stuff is GREAT for stripping paint.
There's a recent book of popular astronomy that contains a very telling observation about 2001. The author remarks that the film's only scientific mistake occurs when a character on the PanAm shuttle sips his drink through a straw, and the liquid flows back into the container afterward. Since there is no gravity, the liquid should remain suspended in the straw.
Can we ever forgive Kubrick for this egregious lapse in scientific accuracy?
Susan: Just rec'd your message and saw Harlan's message. Sorry I missed you. Monday is fine. Why don't you allow me to call since I get free long distance minutes--just tell me a convenient time. Sound ok? Charlie
JAY: Ok, you weirdo, you made me look. Go here: http://www.trainupachild.com/.
And here: http://www.toysfromheaven.com/toys.html. (I have dibs on The Full Armor Of God Playset...)
Jay, I say this with the utmost respect:
You're frightening me.
Hey folks,
Anyone know where to find some relatively cool Biblical action figures? More than just Biblical, I'm trying to put together a set of Deities in action figure form for my nephew whose mom isn't the biggest fan of superheroics. :)
Like that South Park episode where Jesus was part of the Celestial Superfriends?
Anyone?
Thanks
You know, it just occurred to me that we don't hear a lot about what Harlan's _working_ on these days. The AOL cases is taking up a lot of his time, sure, but... well, I was wondering how the Edgeworks editions are coming along, if there are any stories upcoming, what scripts are passing through the typewriter...
On another front, to Faisal-- Welcome back from Pakistan! (I'll probably phone to ask how it all went.) And if Farhan's reading this. welcome aboard.
To Frank Church, re Paul Kurtz. My opinion of him is very mixed. He strikes me more or less the way he strikes you-- sort of a conventional centrist, not exactly outside most intellectual boundaries, probably pretty conservative at heart. (He was one of Sidney Hook's alcolytes, and we all remember Hook as a fink. If you can, try to track down the early-1970's debate in _The Humanist_ between Hook and Chomsky. Long, dry reading, but fun.) He's prone to falling for bullshit sometimes, like the Political Correctness panic. And a number of people at the American Humanist Association had a bad taste in their mouths from the guy.
But in Kurtz's favor, I have to admit that he's managed to organize his faction of humanism pretty well. There's a strong entreprenurial element in his various interests (CODESH, Prometheus Press, the Skeptical Inquirer, etc.), which gives his efforts a more dynamic sense than the AHA's. (Michael Shermer's even better at this than Kurtz, and he's a much better writer, too.) He did get CSICOP off the ground, which is a very good thing, on balance.
To Heather: I picked up _Everything's Eventual_ too, liked a few of the stories, thought a few (like "The Road Virus heads North") were kind of regular-King-stuff. Overall, a good purchase.
BUT... if I was in the bookstore with you, I would probably have steered you away from the hardcover king, and pointed you to the author sitting right next to him-- Laurie R. King, who is _terrific_.
In fact, I would have taken you (by the ear, of course, to prevent sudden escape) up to the Mystery section, and had you blow the twenty-five bucks that you'd have spent on Stephen King, and had you purchase the first three of her "Mary Russell" books. They are probably the only superlative Sherlock Holmes pastiches I've ever read. They don't try to get cutesy and sound more like Doyle than Doyle ever did, or try stunts like having Sherlock and Watson track down Jack the Ripper or exonerate Oscar Wilde. They are intelligent, literate books that actually expand Holmes far beyond what Doyle had given us.
The basic idea _sounds_ really dopey, but really, gang, trust me. The narrator is Miss Mary Russell, who at the beginning of _The Beekeeper's Apprentice_ is a teenaged American girl living in Sussex until her inheritance comes through. (Later on, she gets the inheritance, and stops being a teenager, and occasionally disguises herself as a man.) Tall, a bit ungainly, but ferociously intelligent, Miss Russell stumbles upon an eccentric who seems to be tracking bees back to their hives. Of course, it's the retired detective Holmes, who recognizes her intelligence before anything else, and the two strike up a friendship. Which turns into a mentorship. And later on, a partnership. (Later on a marriage, mainly between two like minds.)
Look, gang, you_know_ how bad such an idea can get-- make Mary Russell one of those "precocious" (i.e., loudmouthed brat) teenagers designed for a modern demographic, and play up Holmes as a real softie beneath the cold exterior, and the experience'd be tooth-grindingly predictable. But Laurie King knows the period very well. The ravages of World War One wash through most of the books, and the Middle East adventure _O, Jerusalem_ is informed throughout by contemporary politics and archaeology. These are really marvelous works, gang. HIGHLY recommended.
My first full-priced hardcover..EVER!
Was in the bookstore, this aft, casing the bookcases. Wandered by the "K's" (yes, you're in the "K's," not the horror section--they don't do horror sections in that store. You're there beside all the literary types--cool, no?)
And your hardback book cover for "Everything's Eventual" caught my eye. Love the cover. Love the back cover too--Blood, yum.
And I thought about you--being a writer type guy--and how I wanna support my fellow fave writer type guys and I said to myself, "Heather, buy Steve's book. That's the right thing to do. Sure, he doesn't need the money--you even mentioned that in the intro I started to read--good intro; about experimenting with the form and everythin' like that; I like that intro--but hey, I like what Steve does. I like Stevo's attitude. So, I'll buy this here book, to support Steve.
And I spent forty-two and fifty cents dollars of my hard-earned money on ya, Steve--did ya feel that? Did ya feel that somewhere down in your psyche, huh, didja? Good.
That's what spending money on writers is about, ya know Steve, it's about supporting things we--PEOPLE we--like.
Forty-two dollars and fifty cents, Steve. And "Riding the Bullet" is in that one; it's a short story collection--another reason why I bought it; for the short stories. I like story stories. Harlan got me onto liking short stories. You know Harlan don't you? He's a writer-type guy, just like you.
And he needs YOUR support right now, didja know that, Steve? Sure ya did. Peace to ya, Steve, peace. Keep on keepin' on. I'll keep watching for your stuff. I truly enjoy it. Thanks.
Heather
Who's Reading Harlan?
http://www.harlanellison.com/kick
CHARLIE IN ST. PETE:
Herself, the Kween of Kopyright, Susan my dearest, will be calling you in a few minutes to assist you in this Istanbul-based copyright question. She Who Knows All is rushing to your aid, even as you read this.
We live to serve.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Little Washu was close to the mark; in fact, in his famous _Playboy _Interview, Kubrick stated that he didn't want to provide a road-map to the movie. He'd wanted it to be, primarily, a visual experience, from which the audience could draw whatever it saw.
Kubrick did do interviews on occasion, and he could be persuaded to talk about his work. Most of the time, he'd talk in a general sort of way about how ideas are communicated through movies, or about the technical issues regarding film production. Try to seek out Michael Ciment's coffee-table-sized book _Kubrick_ for some really fine examples.
As for Chris's comments about the length of shots during the _Dawn of Man_ sequence-- I have no idea if that was Kubrick's intent. I'd always read it as an example of "establishing shots," with the sounds of desolation gradually building to cultivate interest.
Is Ray Bradbury really getting a Hollywood star on the walk of fame on 4/1 or is Locus pulling our legs? A copyright Question for you writers out there: I have a great Uncle (long deceased) who was quite a prolific writer in the mid-1800's (traced over 50 published books). I have an original manuscript of his that was never published and a relative of one of his original publishers in Istanbul is interested in publishing it. The question is, how would I go about copyrighting this manuscript before submitting it to the publisher? Would I need to establish some ownership right to the manuscript before I could copyright it? Would I need to open an estate and have myself appointed executor/personal representative? Any thoughts appreciated.
Konnichi wa, folks!
BAG-O-SCOTT: Actually, Kubrick hardly EVER made ANY comments about his work. Out of the most popular directors of all time, ol' Stan was probably the most reclusive when it came to putting in his opinion on his own films. He didn't disrespect the press (but to be sure, he didn't exactly respect them either) and he often allowed the viewer to make his/her own final judgement, no matter how near or far from the mark it may be. Interestingly enough, Stanley was seriously considering talking to the press after EYES WIDE SHUT was released after so many years of building a wall between them. I think he came to the conclusion that his life was finally winding down and he may as well go to bed without being angry towards anyone. (That's strictly my assumption.) And then he died before he could.
I have hope, though. There seems to be a whole phalanx of new cinema masters on the rise: look at Darren Aronofsky. REQUIM FOR A DREAM was truly a glorious film.
CHRIS: It's been a time since I saw 2001 again, but I think that your hypothesis may very well have a grain of truth to it. One can never tell with the Kubrick.
LW (Benjamin A.A. Winfield)
Heigh Ho all, just in for a bit.
Chris L, re "2001"; I can't recall if that was Kubrick's intent; I can't recall any comments he'd ever made that would suggest that purpose.
Chris L & Alex Jay: I've got to side with Chris on this one on the importance of the strikeout in roto, but Sexson as a negative? He's become the RBI machine of the Brewers, and it's not uncommon to trade 100 Ks for 100 ribbies. Ks seem only to serve the demands of the media as a means to criticise a player's performance.
Well, I can't give up Lo Duca; Hall is still little more than a prospect, and I need the power numbers against these high powered offenses. Besides I just claimed Garrett Anderson...another 30 homer/100 RBI man.
You should see the other clubs in this league, Alex. You can't carry enough cartridges into this gunfight.
Commissioner Bag-O-Scott wishes that the ether rodent treats everyone nicely this time of year.
Brian, thanks for the info about why The Humanist and Free Inquiry have changed to reporting more political stuff. And that would of been a hoot having Harlan at that magazine. Imagine a round table discussion involving, Harlan and Hitchens. Woooo.
Paul Kurtz rubs me the wrong way though: he seems to have a neo-liberal way of looking at the world--or am I wrong? Well, he sure in the hell aint no leftist.
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One more aside from The Oscars:
The documentary style opening was classic. And the kicker was seeing my hero, Jello Biafra as one of the interviewees.
Chris,
Ding Ding Ding! You are (as far as I know) correct about that opening sequence of "2001." Nifty, eh?
Regards,
Joseph
Chris,
Ding Ding Ding! You are (as far as I know) correct about that opening sequence of "2001." Nifty, eh?
Regards,
Joseph
Howdy all.
Just got back from Pakistan yesterday. My cousin, Farhan Baig, a big HE fan from out there has finally discovered the internet. He shall probably be lurking here every now and again. I see I have a lot of posts to read.
FAQ