Chuck:
I'm thinking of it: "with nasty, sharp, point teeth!"
(There are some who call me ... Tim ....)
Rick -
I can't fairly comment now, except to offer a can of New Diet "Pep Talk" and invite you to share a smile or two at the "Wyatt's Steakhouse" bar and grill where there's a bunch of nostalgic crap on the walls, perky servers with buttons and suspenders...blah blah blah...ANYTHING to cheer that droopy ass up off the sweaty, stinky wrestling mat to which life has obviously pinned and spanked you.
Jesus, man. Brilliant bit of writing. The question isn't "You okay?" but "You sound like shit, Longfellow. What can I do to help?"
Regards,
Jay
All right, once more, but without the "Banana Fingers Syndrome":
Rick: Leaving Okay. I never gave the expression "You okay?" any thought. I liked your take on the whole idea of how "okay" is actually rather blah. Do we really go around THAT anesthetized to our own feelings? Got me thinking, Rick. I like your attitude toward the impending changes in your life.
If it gets too hot, and YOU start tasting metal, drop in and tell the gang about it. Or write it up in Rants a let us know.
Chuck
Rick: Leaving Okay. I never gave the expression "You okay?" any thought. I liked your take on the whole idea of how "okay" is actually rather blah. Do we really go around THAT
Scariest Story: Well, Chris' story of the weird phone call during fever delerium was certainly creepy. The one that still lives with me, that brought me to this here b-board is I HAVE NO MOUTH AND I MUST SCREAM. It stays with me. Grail lives within my mind also, but not in a creepy way.
I thought Todd's sister in the basement story was a hoot. I always wondered if the guys in the stinky rubber monster suits was creepy or heroic - you know, lumbering around under those hot lights, stomping model buildings and matchbox cars. I guess that image has it's own creepiness, especially when reality seems to be imitating the movie.
Creepiest movie: I'll also nominate SECONDS. That's one of the films that I kept thinking about long after I saw it. And Rob is right, Rock's performance will stay with you as well. Best he ever gave. Written by Lewis John Carlino.
Scariest Movie Ever: NIGHT OF THE LEPUS. Think about it. There were actually people, proffessionals, earning a salary, who were stupid enough to think a movie about *SIX FOOT TALL BUNNY RABBITS* was scary. They actually got money to make this thing. The had a crew. For all I know somebody might have actually written it. (shudder)
Story conference:
"Killer? Bunnies?"
"Yeah, big ones. They kinda eat people 'n stuff."
"I dunno. Aren't bunnies kinda...well...cute? Kinda cuddly?"
"Well, I was bit by one once. It was kinna scary, y'know?"
Silence.
"Well, y'know, we'll give 'em bigger teeth, an' put blood on their mouths, an' use that back projection thingy to make 'em look bigger."
Other guy scratches his head. First guy brightens. He has an idea.
"I know! We'll hire Stuart Whitman! He can't get arrested now. He'll do anything. Big killer bunnies. It'll be scary. Kinda a ecology angle 'n stuff."
"Yeah. It might work. Yeah. Killer bunnies. That'll be scary."
I think about how this might have happened, and the room spins, it gets all hot and it hurts and stuff and I'm tasting metal....
Killer bunnies. Think about it.
Chuck
"Tell me about the rabbits George."
May I highly suggest that if you haven't already done so, please pop over to Mr. Wyatt's rant page and read an excellent bit of writing from our esteemed host, entitled "Leaving Okay."
http://www.harlanellison.com/rants/rt020227.htm
L.
Cool, Rick, cool.
I thought, for a few minutes of telling you how I feel, relative to what you were telling me about yourself.
Then, I decided, you don't need to hear my shit.
But I did want to say: This is a good thing, where you is. Good for you.
H
TODD!!!!!!!
God DAMN that was so FUNNY!! The sister in the basement story is fantastic!!!
If you never intend to use that scene in a story-- can I have it for a short film or perhaps a script?
If not -- I don't blame you.
God DAMN that was funny!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you! I needed to laugh like that tonight.
Cindy
Cronenberg: I need to see more of his work to be fair. 'The Fly' remake was the best I've seen from him, I enjoyed the hell out of it; and I liked 'Naked Lunch' (as unfilmable as Burroughs is). I liked neither 'The Brood' nor 'Scanners' (though I might give the latter a second chance sometime; occasionally my reaction to a film depends on my mood at that particular moment. For the nonce I prefer George Pal's treatment of the story). VIDEODROME looks like the one I'd really like to see; its images appeal to my taste for surrealism.
Circling back to the subject of the first title, cut the 50's version of 'The Fly' SOME slack. It had a very tight budget and some dopey things, as most genre movies from that period did, and David Hedison (Al at the time) - a very good actor - fought for the approach the remake took decades later in the gradual degeneration of the good doctor. He too thought the 'head' idea was lame but he lost to the producer's stupidity. But its script did a good job building pathos, its success owed entirely to the actors. I don't give a fuck about its absurdities, I enjoyed every viewing.
Hey, 'Seconds': a film I just got on tape and hadn't seen in many years. It's SO remarkable; John Frankenheimer was a dynamic director with a cold calculating eye. And I doubt Rock Hudson was ever better or more 'radical'; he is an older businessman surgically altered through the services of a mysterious organization - very much a forerunner of 'The Village' in 'The Prisoner', evoking Kafka - to restore his youth and escape a dreary life, leaving his wife behind. He joins a commune of hippies partying in the buff but ultimately fails to rediscover himself. When he wants to return to his old life...well, what they do to him...it's not something I'll give away...but you've never seen Rock Hudson like THIS. You will not forget the images shifting between reality and those in his mind.
Anyone who hasn't seen this film, check it out. It was done just a few years after 'Manchurian Candidate'.
Rick -
Here is your requested reminder about the Ugly Baby Page.
"Where da page homie?"
Faisal:
Well, I've come to respect quite of bit of Cronenberg's later works, when he began to mature as a film maker, and make films more in-depth than "The Brood", and "Rabid", although, I've really come to like his first film "Shivers" more with every viewing.
"The Fly" seemed more a diversion for me, a film he made in order to get funding for larger projects. It reads as a generic "mad scientist" film, with the logical conclusion that science irresponsibly used will become the scientist's undoing. Jeff Goldblum is interestingly quirky, and Geena Davis looks great and is adequate, but I didn't see anything here that impressed me except the excellent makeup effects done by Chris Walas, who had worked with Cronenberg on "Scanners". The job done to depict Brundle's deterioration into the human/fly fusion was incredible.
The later works of Cronenberg are what catch my eye, when he truly began to experiment with subject matter, such as fusing sexuality with technology in "Existenz", or "Videodrome", or the dynamic of the twin relationship in "Dead Ringers", or his two superlative films: "Naked Lunch", and "Crash". These are the ones that impress me with the creative risks he was taking, and seemingly unafraid to do so.
Well, the wife is home, and is quite happy. Apparently the sale is going better than anticipated. With that, I'll sign off now.
Scott
Creepiest story.
Well, I doubt any story can top the reality of hearing the confessions of a 911 operator. I dated a girl who was a campus counselor for three years and worked as an EMT who volunteered working the 911 switchboard some weekend overnights.
Some stories just shouldn't be told.
On the issue concerning Charles Edward Pogue's script for The Fly. I have a copy of the early drafts of the screenplay which was credited to Pogue and Walon Green (writer of The Wild Bunch and the unmade Verhoven/Schwaznegger vehicle Crusaders) dated January 1985. I don't think this is the draft that Cronenberg recieved that initally piqued his interest in the film, but its interesting to compare it to the final film.
It would be extremly unfair to estimate how much of Pogues contribution was based on this particular draft but I would like to point out that Cronenberg has talked about Pogue's original script in the book Cronenberg on Cronenberg and what he did and didn't like about the script as well as claiming that he asked the WGA to place Pogue's name ahead of his own in the 'screenplay by' credit.
I can say a fair bit of the script was re-interpreted by Cronenberg and characters of Seth Brundle and his girlfriend are mostly his work.
The Pogue/Green draft does have the inner transformation of Geoff Powell (aka Seth Brundle) after he has absorbed the fly which is what makes the film so unique. Also the genesis of the maggot dream sequence is Pogue's as well as the ending. Think less re-writing and more of a fusion between Cronenberg and Pogue.
On a seperate topic, most people aren't aware that David Cronenberg was once going to direct Total Recall with DDLC which had Richard Dreyfuss attached. Some of Cronenberg's touches can be found in the final film. The two strongest ideas were the scene where the Psychiatrist visits Quail to convince him that the whole Mars experience is a faulty dream implant and the touch where Quail doesn't want to go back to his original personality... who was really a bad guy.
Scott - What makes you think I'm offended by your comments? I'm not, so stay cool. Though I also have to disagree with you concerning The Fly. Its a tragic love story so plays differently than the shockohorror of the original. Cronenberg makes some emotionally intense films and thats why they resound with me for so long.
Joe - That title needs to be earned. A McG film is suppossed to be taken seriously for Charlies Angel? You'd be happy to know that Mike Hodges shares the 'A film by' credit with the screenwriter Paul Mayersberg.
FAQ
Actually, the previous discussion of the expectant teenager puts me in mind of one of the scariest books I ever read: An American Tragedy by Dreiser. Maybe it wasn't the main intention of the book, but the passages dealing with Roberta's attempts to find a way out of her predicament and ultimate failure to escape her fate were just chilling to me. Her complete lack of options, and society's callousness to her plight created an almost claustrophobic-like air of panic than ensured my pro-abortion vote for life.
Oddly enough, I remember almost nothing about the guy's story, which was actually the main plotline...but her part--brrr.
**has anyone had the experience of reading a fiction that resonated waaaay too closely to your reality of the moment – enough to frighten you – or at least creep you out? **
OK, not exactly, and you'll get a chuckle out of the movie I was watching....which will forever be associated with pure terror for the rest of my life. Goofy.
I'm about 13/14 years old. It's a Saturday afternoon, dreary, rainy...almost sleety...cold Saturday afternoon in the late fall. I'm watching War Of The Gargantuas on teevee (yes, that's right, the Japanese giant somethingorother monster movies about two giant monster creeps who fight each other).
I'm alone in the house. At some point, I get up to get a snack...AND THE FUCKING BASEMENT DOOR BEGINS TO OPEN! If I had not just shit earlier in the day, you know what color my pants would have been! It opens out.....and it's just a few feet from me....and I can't believe what's happening and I leap at it with all my strength and slam it closed thinking "no one there.....just the wind or somesuch shit" but the door pushes back at me. Yup....there is someone there and he is fighting me with the door. Holey Fucking Shit!
So I struggle and the Gargantuas are screaming behind me as they destroy a building or something and I'm pushing and finally I get the door closed and slam the deadbolt lock (a very weak lock, I know it can be easily forced).
Then I go sliding on the faux marble floor in my socks to the front door....burst out onto our porch, trying to decide which way to run in the shitty, dreary, ice cold rain....and my heart is beating louder than the rain hitting the driveway....and
I hear a very muffled whine behind me..."Toooooood. Toooooood."
It takes a few seconds, and then I realize....my goddamn sister. She was down in the basement with her friends, smoking dope or something she shouldn't have been doing which is why I thought I was alone in the house....they were so damn quiet. I still take tentative steps to the basement door to make sure I'm hearing right, and I am. I open it, and she curses, but sees how terrified I must have been and begins cracking up instead of bitching and moaning about how I almost caused her to tumble down the wooden steps and break her neck.
Bitch. Now I can never watch that stupid Japanese movie again without getting a chill in my chest.
-TODD
Heigh Ho, kids are successfully fed, and all is tranquil in the land of Scott...
Ah, the bi-weekly Ellison rant, to remind us we do not think for ourselves, that we are all mindless slaves to a trash culture...
...of which each and every of us has sifted through to find the "Smoking E" as one of those who rises above the mass media filth, and we did this by ourselves, with no help from the man. Just thinking it odd, mind you.
BTW, I was well aware Cronenberg's remake was one, and while I think it one of his weakest efforts based on the fact of being a remake, I was at least spared the idiocy of watching the often caricatured scene where a man's head is edited onto a fly body (CGI alert) as he cries is a high pitch wail...
...You're saying the line. You don't want to, but you are.
Scary Movie or Book? I don't really have any movie I would consider as scary in the idea that I'd be peeking back over my shoulder to ensure the terror on the screen wasn't coming for me.
Book? Pretty much the same; I just see the page as actually removing the fear, by allowing me the ability to dismiss the creation intended to scare by saying that this is something formed in the mind, not in the room.
Sorry, reality is frightening enough. And I've had my fair share of that.
Scott
Berman,
"What the hell are you talking about?"
If this morning's schizophrenic babbling left you bewildered wait and see what tomorrow brings.
**has anyone had the experience of reading a fiction that resonated waaaay too closely to your reality of the moment – enough to frighten you – or at least creep you out? **
Not in the creep-out mode but watching Ghost World, I was very disturbed at how very true and real Seymour's character felt. When he gets cut off by a car and sits there cursing and gesticulating to nobody, I thought 'Oh my God, that's me!'
Then the whole business with his record collection - I feel the same love/shame relationship with my comic book collection.
Right on the mark and a little disconcerting to me.
Er, yeha, make that last line "in mid-December in Philadelphia."
January came from the fact that I originally wrote that post as mid-January until I got to the part where I went to check on my grandfather's obituary and then realized that meant the eventshad to have taken place in mid-December, not January.
That was the one and only time in my life I allowed myself, for just a few minutes, to truly believe in the supernatural.
I blame it on the fever though.
Remind me to tell you sometime about my first morning ever spent in Utah when I woke up to see a gun pointed at me.
Even More Lost HERC members
Audrey Snowden, Cleveland Heights, OH.
Robert brabham, Columbia, SC.
Many Thanks--Susan
Scary Movie - House on the Haunted Hill – 1958 – Written by Robb White – Directed by William Castle
Terrified me when I saw it as a child. Made quite an impact. I find psychological or well made supernatural horror far scarier than splatter/gore movies.
Scary Book - Fear written by L Ron Hubbard. Again, the psychological terror is what makes it scary for me.
Chris, that is very spooky.
Cheers,
Kerry
Chris,
Creepy story. But did you mean something else besides January in that last line?
Regards,
Joseph
Scary movies and books – I seem to recall, during an earlier incarnation of this discussion on this board, someone said that they weren't scared by movies.
This is my position. At least not anymore.
The only movie that ever scared me – and I mean terrified me long past the time actual film was over was The Exorcist. Being in my early teens, watching in an other empty house, at night, just before bed, probably helped. As did my early indoctrination in the Roman Catholic church.
I haven't ever been scared like that since.
Oh, sure – I've been startled during films more times than I can count, been sitting on the edge of my seat, pulse pounding – but I've never finished a film and remained scared by it or it's premise.
Books – no fiction has ever frightened me like King's Misery. It doesn't have ghosts or ghouls or things that go bump in the night – just a wacked "Number One Fan". My mood may have been helped by the fact that I was associated with an ex-girlfriend who bore a remarkable resemblence to Kathy Bates and had declared herself a fan of my writing.
Or it could be coincidence.
In any case, I'm creeped out by certain realities far more than fiction any day.
But this thought, and Chris L's comments below lead me to another topic – has anyone had the experience of reading a fiction that resonated waaaay too closely to your reality of the moment – enough to frighten you – or at least creep you out? Misery did that for me – man, I shudder just thinking about it...
I don't know how many scary books I've really read.
I wouldn't call _Hell House_ truly scary (though it is very good) but it was part of the scariest evening of my life.
This is a true story.
It was mid-December a year or two ago and I was battling a minor cold, running a bit of a fever. I felt a little light-headed and couldn't sleep because of the fever so I wound up staying up very late, reading _Hell House._
The wind outside began to pick up throughout the night and I was startled a few times when tree branches scraped against the window. But that happens from time to time. Suddenly, around 3 a.m., the lights flicker - they get very bright then *poof* they go out...
Only to come right back on. Not even long enough to force me to reset any of the digital clocks. I think about getting up to get a flashlight just in case I have a power line about to go down but the fever has sapped some of my will and I just stay in bed.
Ten minutes later, *KABOOM* a peal of thunder splits the air! I don't even register it as thunder first. I think my roof must be falling in or my car exploded in the driveway. Keep in mind this is mid-December in Philadelphia. The high for the previous day had been 40 degrees! But when I see a streak of lightning through the window followed by another thundercrack, I understand what's happening.
I'm shaken but not stirred from my lethargy and I keep reading though I feel decidedly weirded out at this point. The thunderstorm lasts for another fifteen minutes and dies out. I keep reading _Hell House_ nearing the end.
Five minutes later, the lights go out again. They stay out this time so I stumble downstairs to get the flashlight just as the lights go back on. This time, power was out long enough and I have to go around the house resetting the clocks.
As I am resetting the clock in the back bedroom to 3:40 a.m., the phone rings.
I almost hit the ceiling with my terrified jump. I stare at the phone. It keeps ringing. I think "No way am I answering that" but after eight rings, I think it might be an emergency. Maybe my grandmother is having a problem and needs help. So I answer the phone.
"Hello?"
A pause and then a sobbing voice says...
"Alfred is dead."
I turn white.
"What?"
"Alfred is dead."
Alfred was my grandfather's name. He committed suicide ten years ago.
In mid-December.
"I... I think you have the wrong number."
The sobbing, earnest voice continues.
"No, no. Alfred is dead."
Alfred was my grandfather's name. He shot himself in the head with his handgun ten years ago.
In mid-December.
"I... I'm sorry. You have the wrong number."
I hang up. I just have the presence of mind to dial *69. Number is out of the area.
Now I scramble for the drawers where I keep the "death memorabilia" from my family. I know there is a news clipping there of my grandfather's obituary. Confused and feverish, I can't remember the exact date my grandfather killed himself. If I look at this clipping and see it's the same date, ten years ago, I have already decided I'm getting out of the house. Immediately. And not coming back.
Hands shaking, I dig out the clipping. No, not the same data. About a week off.
Unable to continue reading, I go downstairs and turn on the TV. They are running an early morning news program, tracking the thunderstorm. They also show the current temperature of 71 degrees. At 4 a.m. in mid-December in January.
And that was a true story. Honest.
Not to piggy-back on Harlan's comment, but I pray for the day I see the death of credits like "A Film By ________" or "_____________'s Whatever." It's ridiculously insulting not only to the writer (though especially to the writer), but also to every damn person who worked on the film, from the cinematographer right down to the guy who handed the star a bran muffin to calm him down enough to get him back on set.
To paraphrase Kevin Smith, "It's insulting to all the people who put such hard work into the movies I direct, and it also makes it a lot harder to spread the blame if it blows up in my face."
Regards,
Joseph
TWO INTERJECTIONS:
LITTLE WASHU: Thank you for the laudatory posting. Of course, I was right. Was there ever any question of my cosmic rightness? Foolish mortal! Now: go forth and sin no more.
All this talk of "David Cronenberg's THE FLY" as being a great film, as well as a great horror film . . .
I absolutely agree. One of the extremely rare examples of a sequel that far surpasses the original version of a film.
And as those who have read my declarations on numerous occasions elsewhere have been abundantly apprised, I am a stone righteous admirer of Cronenberg, whom I consider one of the very few truly original, sui generis, directors in the game. My full-out, unreserved adulation for virtually everything he's ever done, is unparalleled by others' approbation.
BUT . . .
If it is "Cronenberg's" THE FLY, it is only 50% Cronenberg's THE FLY, onaccounta
HE DIDN'T WRITE THE FUCKIN' SCRIPT, YOU BUNCH OF AUTEUR-ZOMBIES!!
The brilliant screenplay was written by my friend Charles Edward Pogue. It says so on the credits, which, despite my valiant efforts, I cannot seem triumphantly able to get you tunnel-visioned sycophants to read and REMEMBER. The Director is an accomplish artisan, but s/he is just the carpenter. The scenarist is the architect. The film did not create itself. Those lines spoken by Geena Davis and Jeff Goldblum did not appear full-blown in their noggins like Socratic epiphanies. THEY WERE WRITTEN! By Charles Edward Pogue.
Kindly try to save me the choler produced by slovenly comments such as "Cronenberg's THE FLY" in the future. And when parvenus, genXers, and arrivistes blossom here in that halcyon upcoming era, and they gaffe thus, I will expect the lynch-mob of you to rush in and repaint the graffito posthaste, before I have to come back, even testier, and declare, I KNOW WHAT YOU DID LAST POSTING because that's when the killing starts.
Yr. pal, Harlan
You know, maybe I'm a slightly twisted person, but my 1st reaction to seeing a picture of Emmylou Harris from the Grammies last night was "Mman. She still has the most bad-ass hair on the planet."
Jay,
What the hell, are you shadowing me? I noticed those quotes as well - also had the weird experience of seeing a quote from somone I personally know (it's Eric Thornton, of Chicago Comics, who has a quote at the end of the "Batman: 10-Cent Adventure story).
Regards,
Joseph "not a morose motherfucker" Finn
The horror, the horror:
Little Washu: How's this for a plug? If you were disappointed by the epic horror of *The Stand* you may not be disappointed by Dan Simmons's *Carrion Comfort* and Robert McCammon's *Swan Song.* The former is, I think, accurately described as technohorror or science horror, and it's truly disturbing and large-scale and satisfying. McCammon's book appearss to have been bounced off the templates of *The Stand* and *A Canticle for Leibowitz* in a number of places; it's a neat book if you have the time for 700 pages of apocalyptic horror fantasy.
Dan Thorne: Good call on EIII. Lovely, modulated performances by Jason Miller, Brad Dourif, and Nicol Williamson; a great, over-the-top performance by George C. Scott; a smart script that shuns graphic horror for intelligent conversation and suspense building. I love the Exorcist III. Some of Scott's line delivery in that is truly operatic, although in defending his performance to a friend, I argued that people faced by the forces of evil should probably be allowed to over-emote whenever they want to. All that and well-thought-out references to *Macbeth* and *It's a Wonderful Life* and allusions to *Psycho* and the Jack Benny film *The Horn Blows at Midnight.* And Fabio and Patrick Ewing as angels! What a fucking fantastic movie!
Jay: Harlan was feeling a mite peckish in that interview, wasn't he?
Horror in general: Not many things scare me in the sense that they linger. Some do inspire a sense of changed perspective, which is I guess what I'd call the lingering effects of terror.
Scary and/or terrifying shorts and novellas: "The Boogeyman" and "The Man in the Black Suit" by Stephen King. "Sticks" by Karl Edward Wagner. "Who Goes There?" by John W. Campbell. "Faith of our Fathers" by Philip K. Dick. The Silver John story with the cottage, the long-waiting bride, the treacherous and now-aged groom, and the really creepy creatures shuffling, flying, and crawling all over the place (sorry -- I couldn't find my copy of *Who Fears the Devil?* for the exact title) by Manly Wade Wellman. Pretty much anything by Ramsey Campbell. "Bunny is Good Bread" by Peter Straub. "At the Mountains of Madness" and "the Colour Out of Space" by H.P. Lovecraft. "The Small Assassin" by Ray Bradbury. "Smoke Ghost" by Fritz Leiber. "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" by Harlan Ellison.
Novels: *It.* *Song of Kali.* *Carrion Comfort.* *Salem's Lot.* *Dracula.* *Something Wicked This Way Comes.* *Red Dragon.* *Midnight Sun.* *The Hungry Moon.* *Fevre Dream.*
Special citation for trilogy: *Koko*, *Mystery* and *The Throat* by Peter Straub.
Best editors of horror and dark fantasy: T.E.D. Klein; Karl Edward Wagner.
What great books those Karl Edward Wagner-edited "Year's Best Horror Stories" were -- he was a fine editor and a fine writer.
Jon
Totally subjective responses:
Scariest Movie: NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD. This movie terrified me from the moment it was released (while still a young'un) until any evening that I walk to take out the garbage and stare into the woods behind my home, wondering how many living dead might be slowly approaching from behind the trees. This movie has supplied me with more nightmares over the last 3+ decades than anything else I've ever seen or read.
Scariest Book: SALEM'S LOT. I read this book while vacationing in Cape Cod with the family.....a very lonely and odd time, as my father was battling cancer and not having an easy time of a remission approaching it's end. I was 19, and I took the book out with me to the kids playground area late at night and read some of it's scariest chapters while I sat alone in the dark with just the distant parking lot lights illuminating the pages. Scared the shit out of me, but I stayed 'safely' in the dark rather than return to our room to face the true fear that we all have.
-TODD
Thanks to Melissa, Peg and Chris for your thoughts: yeah, I'm more interested in what happens now. Of course, she has decisions and thoughts. I don't know her whole story. I do know that she has a large and supportive Irish Catholic family. I do not know what her status is with the boyfriend. I do know that she is a talented young woman who is academically responsible. It's early in the pregnancy and I don't know who else knows (family;friends etc.). And quite frankly, none of that is any of my business really. I promised to keep the information confidential. I even worry that discussing it here may be breaking that confidence, though I'm certain this nameless girl has appeared on many college and high-school campuses.
She has a lot of talent and I don't want to see her get hung up---though anyway you slice it, this is definitely going to sidetrack her for a while. Abort? Surrender for adoption? Mother?
All I can say is I'm glad that I wasn't in her shoes when I was her age. I had the good luck to at least face it in a solid relationship.
I think you all are right. The best thing to do is just let her know that I'm here for her. At the same time, I must be a realistic teacher. I personally want her to continue singing. Not because I wanna do her any favors, but because it will be a pain in the ass for me to go out and recruit another alto and teach her a semester and a half's worth of music. At the same time, I know what it's like to have to sing when you are pregnant. Singing is all about the entire body as an instrument. Pregnancy changes the instrument. Not to mention, music requires great concentration and it's pretty damn hard to concentrate when your attention must be turned to solving a more immediate, pressing, and important problem.
If she has to leave, perhaps the solution would be for me to sing alto. What the hell. It's not against the law.
P.A. BERMAN: Yeah, I went a bit AWOL there too. Sorry 'bout that. I never deliberately intend to start arguments, but I seem to have a habit of voluntarily sticking my foot in my mouth on a regular schedule. For example, I could say a completely innocent if slightly dopey comment such as, "Gee, Adolf Hitler made some nice paintings," and then some quick-tempered fellow could scream "YOU LIKE ADOLF HITLER!!!!! THEREFORE YOU HATE JEWS AND BLACKS AND ANY GUY WITH MORE THAN ONE TESTICLE!!!!!! YOU ARE A RASCIST PIG THAT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE!!!!!" ad nauseum.
(Oh, and Adolf's paintings do suck, by the way.)
On the subject of 'scariest films', I just recalled Tod Browning's FREAKS, aka SPURS. While indeed a classic by any means, I think somewhere within that film lies the heart of a hypocrite. It's commonly critiqued as displaying the ordinary people as the true monsters (i.e. Cleopatra and her strongman lover) but doesn't the finale seem to only CONFIRM that the 'freaks' are indeed monsters? I mean, sure, you can say Cleopatra was such an unbelievable bitch that she deserved to be mutilated and deformed into a hideous chicken-lady...but doesn't that only seem to say that the freaks ARE vengeful creatures of darkness that'll turn you into a fellow abomination if you cross them even once?
Personally I don't really think people who are horribly disfigured or 'unusual' don't need a revenge movie for their sakes. They have enough problems on their own to deal with.
But then again, I'm a white, christian, heterosexual male, so I'm shit out of luck. Dagnabbit.
Little Washu
I won't comment on scariest movie because I don't think I have one. I love horror movies and I have favorites but they are favorites because of personal reasons. I saw such-and-such as a kid and it scared me so it holds a special place, that sort of thing.
Scariest book. It's hard so I'll throw out my top three: The Girl Next Door by Jack Ketchum, IT by King, and, one I just read (finally) last month, Song of Kali by Dan Simmons. All for completely different reasons.
Back to lurking,
Bill
Ahh, hello everyone. It's been along week. I want to take this opportunity to thank Kevin Smith (as I know he lurks on the board...bunnngg) for the skintight catsuits in his epic and visionary work _Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back_, and providing excellent talent to fill them.
It's dumb. It's cliche. It's self-serving, but I absolutely love it. It came at the perfect time for me. So, I mention it just to add a counterpoint to the intellectual disection of literary and cinematic masterworks.
On my plate this weekend, "Crying of Lot 49" and a good deal of sleep. Oh... and ran across a lovely quote in Wizard magazine this week. See if you can guess the source of this quote:
"I will live to piss in the open mouths or open graves of my enemies, whichever comes first." - Wizard #97
Can't guess? Maybe this'll help. Same source:
"Everybody thinks when you become an artist, you're supposed to work for nothing. Fuck you. Who's gonna put food on my table?" - Wizard #97
Ah yes. Taking it all down a notch for the good of the karma. Everybody just chill. Grab a beer, a biscuit or a cup of herbal tea - whatever is your thing, man. Be well.
Jay
I liked The Fly until the final act, when, like so many Cronenburg movies, we got overwhelmed in goo and latex.
Videodrome, Dead Ringers, Naked Lunch...there's always the element of the repulsive in his films that makes them hard to watch, and takes away from potentially good, original stories.
I remember watching the original Fly as a kid, and it scared the hell out of me. The scene with the giant press at the end...yowch. Two on a Guillotine was another one.
King Lurk
The movies that scared me the most? I can't think of many. _Alien_ was one, but that rests mainly on two sequences the expedition to the derelict spaceship, and the hunt in the air shafts. _Halloween_'s stuck with me as an example of the most basic horror movie ever made, and I did like _The Blair Witch Project_ a lot.
But the two that really stick with me as really _terrifying_ movies work in very different ways. I really admire _The Texas Chainsaw Massacre_, for example. For the first hour or so, the film makes you understand that the characters are out in the middle of _nowhere_, and that they could be swallowed up by damn near _anything_.
However, David Cronenberg's remake of _The Fly_ was probably the most terrifying film I've ever seen. Once you buy the idea of the teleporter as a gene-splicer (a stretch, I admit), you're watching as an extremely likable character is turning into a genuine monster; there's the bit about "how Brundlefly eats," of course, which is wisely left to the imagination at first, and that gut-wrenching scene in the redneck bar where Goldblum snaps the man's arm in two.
Apart from that, I tend to think of sequences from particular horror movies-- and even then, I tend to like elements with really wild dark humor. The whole of George Romero's last two _Dead_ movies, and the chase through the suburban ouse in his film _Martin_ stand out in memory. There's Brad Dourif's monologue in the middle of _Exorcist III_, a bright spot in an otherwise dire movie. And the discovery of the manuscript in _The Shining_ was scarier than anything in King's book-- which I did like, BTW.
Actually, upon consideration of a conversation that I had with Lynn recently, I take back my last, snippy post. I apologize to the board for any sullying I may have done here.
Rob, Little Washu, don't quite know what your "issue" with me is these days, nor where the personal attacks are coming from, but I think slinging shit, no matter in what good humor (not sure if it is or not) should cease. So let's chill out, can we?
This one was for you, Lynn,
Bermanator
Rob: What the hell are you talking about?
Wait, don't answer that. I don't care.
Go to the library with Ben, I mean Little Washu, and read some books, willya? You guys deserve each other.
Bermanator
Berman,
To apologize to YOU is to be fawning and kiss-ass, even if self-serving as to be in good graces and I ain't gonna put up with it. Y'don't d'zoive it.
I know how to handle..."your kind". I've had friends who were teachers: one grade school, two high school, one college. They, like you, would make inane, short-sighted comments - outright stupid, in fact - demonstrating they needed as much learnin' as anyone else.
Go back and make an intelligent assessment of 'Forbidden Planet'; read 'The Age of Reason' by Thomas Paine; finish chewing your food before speaking, and you'll be on the road to self-improvement.
With Shit-Slingin' Love,
Rob
(I feel like the townsfolk of Dayton when they were pelting John Scopes, in an odd twist; it's a GOOD feeling...savagery is bliss).
Scariest Book: MY ISSUES by P.A. Berman.
Seriously though, I actually find that the short-story format is a far better medium to channel terror. Ray Bradbury's THE CROWD ranks up there as his most disturbing work, second only to THE COLOUR OUT OF SPACE by H.P. Lovecraft.
Scariest movies? ERASERHEAD and John Carpenter's THE THING. Right on.
Little Washu
Faisal: I think I worded my comment incorrectly. I know that the child was not that of the Christopher Walken/Brooke Adams characters. It was the child of the Brooke Adams character and her husband. Having it turn out to be that child (whose name is also Denny, by the way) was pouring it on a bit thick. Sorry if the way I posted it before was not clear.
Dennis
OK, let's take a survey: what's the scariest movie you ever saw and book you ever read?
Scariest movie: Alien, then Exorcist
Scariest book: 1984 and Red Dragon
You guys?
Bermanator
Ghost Story was good too, if you can get by Craig Wasson. Of course, I saw it in the theater, high as a kite...
King Lurk
Ghost Story was good too, if you can get by Craig Wasson. Of course, I saw it in the theater, high as a kite...
King Lurk
Scariest film: Exorcist III
(Yea, you're laughing if you haven't seen it. But those who have, aren't!)
Good morning, one and all. I'm doing one of my bi-annual weeks selling my wares at our local mall, so I've got to make this fast. I've had a good week so far, and am working to make sure it continues.
Peg: You said;
"You said she is/was "just a victim of circumstance, and nothing more." I, too, hope the young lady in question is doing well, and I feel for her in the struggles and decisions she will have to face. However, I don't agree that she is a victim of anything, other than her own judgement and actions (assuming she had consentual sex)."
Well, no excuses from me; you're right on. I made the mistake of seeing the act as separate from the decision to do it, and that's wrong. I look at my own decisions in this matter, and no, I didn't go into marriage pure in virtue myself. It's nothing to be ashamed of, the only difference being that my choice didn't bear the consequences the young lady's seemed to.
Sorry to have to put it so shortly, but I've a full truckload of ceramics that need to get to the mall, and I've got to get going now. If I didn't write this at the moment, you might not have heard from me for a while.
Wishing you a safe and enjoyable trip to California, if I read some of your prior postings correctly, and a bit of love for all others,
Melissa
Decided I might as well add my 2 cents on the King/Kubrick thread, but just to be completely safe I re-watched Kubrick's film last night. Yes, I did made a statement before about the whole business, but that was done a bit too prematurely and I myself am fascinated by the film. A few things struck me that didn't before:
1. Did you notice the bizarre presence of the Looney Tunes throughout the film? You can hear them as Danny is watching television with Wendy near the beginning, and just before Wendy goes downstairs armed with a bat, and Danny's all zonked out. You can clearly hear the tunes for 'The Road Runner Show'.
2. Shelley Duvall doesn't strike me as an overly good actress. Check out the scene where she's being threatened by Jack as she backs up the stairway. The scene comes off as comical rather than frightening (and Nicholson hamming it up even more than Porky Pig doesn't help, either.) Her friction with Kubrick on the set is hardly a secret...but HE picked her for the role, didn't he?
3. I've heard many people say that the opening credits absolutely terrified them, which is a bit peculiar, but listening to the music and the imagery again I think I can see why. The big screen is ALWAYS a completely different experience; in there, the atmosphere and the dread can totally consume you in the darkness of the theater. There IS something disconcerting about that music...it reminds me of our cat on his less cheerful days...
4. Kubrick is a natural-born perfectionist, but what was with the helicopter's shadow that could be easily spotted, also in the opening sequence?
5. I think Jack didn't ALWAYS come off as being whacko. Look at the sequence where he's talking to Ullman at the interview. He comes off as being pretty calm and sensible, doesn't he?
6. Jack Nicholson doesn't quite work as a family man...there doesn't seem to be anything between him and Wendy except irritation. He actually seems more in connection with his son...especially the moment when Danny talks with Jack on the bed in the last moment of sanity before Jack goes gaga.
As for the ending, I actually think it closed the story in a more satisfying way then nuking the hotel in King's version. Jack follows Danny into the maze like a deranged animal. Danny is a CHILD, and yet outwits Jack completely and escapes with his mother. Jack is left to his own desolation and destruction. There is no redemption for the pain Jack inflicted on himself; like Macbeth, he's damned for his own actions. Oh, the hotel may have had a bloody hand in it, but Jack ultimately was the one who LET the hotel get to him. I could only pity the bastard.
So, I think I had sympathy for both King's and Kubrick's interpretations of Jack, but Kubrick's Jack struck me as far more pathetic and bleak.
So there you have it...my 2 cents on 'The Shining'.
By the way, did anyone here get through King's THE STAND? I did, and the final feeling I had was that of disappointment. Like a lot of other big books I managed to finish...SHOGUN, anyone?
Little Washu
Little Washu: No sure how you gleaned that I was "freaking out." If you think that was freaking out, you need to recalibrate your Freak-o-Meter, kid. We were having a friendly debate about the relative merits and flaws of _The Shining_ which I did not want to see quashed by someone's delicate sensitivities. You are free not to read posts that do not interest you. I merely pointed that out.
Also please don't threaten me with your "backlash." This old pedant calls that peevishly bad form and asking for trouble around these here parts.
Rob: I know you love me because you're girding up your loins for me. Woo hoo. Soi-disant my ass. And look up the word "sycophantic"-- LW was far from it.
Bermanator
Morning, all. And, how are you at 3 AM, EST?
Faisal:
I'm not picking on Kubrick's work, just being critical of it. I treat him like all people: no hype; not everything they do is a masterpiece because their name is attached. I respect what folks do well; I criticise what folks do poorly. Not to worry, I'm in the same boat as Kubrick or anyone else, and nobody's better at criticizing myself than I.
Except perhaps the wife.
You may find offense, but I've disliked films by John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock, Steven Spielberg, Frederico Fellini, John Boorman, Orson Welles, Akiro Kurosawa...
...but never, under any circumstances, disliked a film by Luis Bunuel.
Peg; I'll flag your post for Mel. Far as I'm concerned, an agreement comes from this side, but Mel will have her say.
Well, second cup of joe, then off to work I go.
Heigh-ho is for horny dwarves.
Scott
Stephen King: A common thread running through King's work is that evil can manifest itself in the most normal, unassuming people. (See Nazi Germany) One of the things I liked about Storm of the Century is that in the end, EVERYBODY had something dark and scary lurking inside, that everyone had the capacity to do something rotten to others, sometimes just for the hell of it. Everyone was culpable in the end of the story, all the townspeople were gambling that it would be someone else's child that would be taken away by Linoge. No one got out unstained, except for the main character, and his main difference was his capacity for understanding and accepting that everyone had weaknesses. Even Linoge had the same foibles as the Mortals, even down to his blindness to his own flaws.
Cookie: Not having been pregnant (no surprise there) or gotten anyone in that condition, I don't know how to advise you. Except perhaps what Harlan wrote about my bout with depression, ie, "Staying afloat in a sea of monkey vomit". The best thing she can do is talk to understanding folks like you. God, it can help.
On to lighter stuff.
Chris: Ed Wood is a masterpiece. I own the video. Martin Landau's performance earned that oscar. It was not just a Rich Little impression, but a portrayal of a scared, bitter, desperate and lonely old man. His rendition of the "Home? I have no home!" speech was masterful.
Lynn: I saw Nightmare Before Christmas at the El Capitan theater across Hollywood Blvd. from the Chinese Theater. It was a special showing that included an exibition of the animation models used in the movie. Very interesting stuff, and the models were works of art in themselves. Having a friend in LA sure comes in handy.
Jay Smith: The African scams predate the growth if the internet, I believe. I get all kinds of come-ons from people who have ways for me to become rich in 15 minutes, and ways to increase my bust and penis size. If I were a transvestite, I'd be all set. Hotmail has a junk mail service that shunts most of this crap into a folder that I can flush out from time to time. You might want to see what your provider has to deal with these vultures. I think they are getting tired of this shit, too.
Jon Stover: Speaking of action figures, I have a Nosferatu that is a striking likeness of Max Schreck, and a Phantom of the Opera that is the spitting image of Lon Cheyney. Very nicely done. The same outfit has also come out with a Bela Lugosi Dracula that is also superb. The figures include nice stuff such as Rats and the soft cloth hat to go with Nosferatu, and the mask, homburg hat, violin & bow for the Phantom. Great for giving yourself nightmares.
Superman: I read something about Siegel & Schuster recently about how they kept their creative juices flowing through all the rejections they got. They self-published stories and comic strips, including a story titled REIGN OF THE SUPERMAN, which pitted the story's heros against a shaven-headed villain named Superman. The character started out as a bad guy until they turned him into a hero for the new medium of comic books. I think we can tell where they got Lex Luthor, as well.
Speaking of Supes, ever wonder how he got that athletic body? After all, he's so strong he doesn't have to exert himself. Why isn't he a big lump of flab?
Little Washu: Welcome to the library. You will find it a treasure trove. I think you're going to enjoy this. It is a self-made age of discovery. I think ol' Unca Harlan will be proud of you. Bravo.
Chuck
Washu. Pssst. Little Washu...ova hea. Yeah, it's me. Come ova n' this conah' whe' nobudy kin hea' us...I wanna tell ya somethin'...
Take it from me: don't bathe Berman in sycophantic apologies for arrogance; that soi-disant pedant needs an occasional bop upside the head. FERGIT it. Straighten the spine, clench your fists, gird your loins for the fray.
...and tell no one here we had this little tete-a-tete.
Cindy~ Don't forget Green Mile, Eyes of the Dragon and the Gunslinger books. There is something in Stephen King that reaches beyond the horror genre into the same realms as the elusive great American novel. Searching. The descriptive passages in 'Salem's Lot are miniature masterpieces, capturing life in small town New England with an uncanny eye.
I also have a tattered cherished copy of his "On Writing" that I highly recommend, even if you're not a writer. I pray he doesn't retire but finds within the strength to write that one book that will forever seal his place in American literature.
::too tired, waxing poetic, must sleep::
L.
Hey Jay,
I got a couple of these and wrote them back. I said, " It would be a great honor for me to help you. I could not accept money for this service, indeed it would be wrong to do so-- in this your hour of need. Say no more, how can I assist you?"
I never heard back-- I read someplace that in Africa it's bad mojo to mess with somebody who's crazy.. .oh wait I think that might have been an American thing-- with the Indians.
Cindy
OH and for my money NONE of the screenplays outdid the books by Stephen King-- with the exception of MISERY. That was one of two books that I wasn't crazy about-- the other being Gerald's Game. I thought the movie of the shining was creepy in spots but I yearned for the the lay of the land in the book. As a rule adaptations that take liberties PISS ME OFF. The Green Mile was a DELIGHT the cast was golden. The Dead Zone is one of the most outstanding adaptations. I enjoyed Needful Things and parts of The Stand but there again-- the films were just not the same.I love his long novels-- didn't he say someplace that a short story was like a kiss and a long novel more of an affair? I might have missed that quote by a mile.. if anybody knows what Im talking about and can fix it please do so. The long ones.. and the standard length novels like Rose Madder, Firestarter,Carrie, Christine, 'Salem's Lot-- I could go on and on. His books draw me to my bed at night. The luxury of a cotton flannel gown 5 sizes too large, clean white cotton sheets, fluffy pillows and a HUGE Stephen King novel-- THAT is bliss for me.
It's not about the horror it's about the people. His people are so real they live and breathe. I mourn them when he bumps them off.. OH the DARK HALF that was great. Pet Semetary was almost too hard to deal with but there again the people were so human I couldn't turn away. I identify with his people, especially those with flaws. THINNER! I loved Thinner too.
Cindy
Melissa,
Something you wrote didn't strike me quite right in regards to the young lady in Cookie's class. Apologies in advance if I am misinterpreting your intent.
You said she is/was "just a victim of circumstance, and nothing more." I, too, hope the young lady in question is doing well, and I feel for her in the struggles and decisions she will have to face. However, I don't agree that she is a victim of anything, other than her own judgement and actions (assuming she had consentual sex).
If she chose to have sex, she chose to take the risk of becoming pregnant. She is not a victim unless she was incapable of making the choice in the first place. That may come across harsh, but it's true. I prefer to think she is an intelligent person capable of making those choices and taking responsibility for the consequences (which it sounds like she's doing.)
Also, in case people are looking at the Want Ads page and wondering what the hell Jay and Scott are talking about, I excised the chain letters and tourphone advertisements as well as some other really whacked stuff. In the interest of providing you with context, I copied them into:
http://harlanellison.com/heboard/brdwtf.htm
In between some Webderland work today I finished editing on a new rant for the website,
Leaving Okay.
If I don't make it linkable here you can get to it by clicking the "Rants" link on the menu at the top of the board. As always, comments, corrections or editing suggestions, and criticism are welcome, either here or in e-mail.
Cookie:
Good god, I really do feel for the poor thing. If you don't mind an intrusion, how far along is she?
No, I don't think badly of her; first, it takes two for this to happen; second, I know how desires can be; third, you can take all the precautions in the world, and pregnancies will occur. She's just a victim of circumstance, and nothing more.
Does the boyfriend or husband know yet, and if so, how has he responded?
What about her family? What do they know?
How is she bearing up? This is something that's probably scaring her half to death. I know when I was pregnant with my first, even having a good husband and a stable marriage, I was still scared. I can't imagine how hard it is for her.
I guess I don't really have any advice that would do any real good, with so little information. She does have choices in what to do, but I'm afraid those choices will be hers to take care of when the time comes.
But she's got one great thing on her side right now, and that's you. You obviously care about what happens to your students, and you seem like a gal who's been there and back. The fact that you're willing to ask for whatever thoughts we have in order to help her shows this to me. I'm just sorry that, under the circumstances, I can give really no great advice that will help matters.
I hope she's okay, and if anything comes to mind, I'll happily pass it along.
Love to all, Melissa
This is a first for me: one of my freshman vocalists just told me she's pregnant. She was apologetic for missing a few rehearsals.
Christ.
I can't judge her because "there but for the grace or quirk of the Universe go I." And I know just how yucky and complicated unplanned pregnancy can be. I've been there. "Call me irresponsible...".
This is what I told her in a nutshell: Yep. You got trouble. I understand. If you wanna sing in the group, go for it. If you don't; I understand. Either way, let me know so I know how to proceed.
Anybody have any further advice? Please don't get into "the slut was an idiotic twat" kind of shit. What's done is done and what a nice mess we're in now (Ollie). Having been more than stupid a time or two, I feel some sympathy for the girl.
P.A. BERMAN: Whoa, Berman, chill. What did I say that made you freak out? Why did you assume I was somehow attacking you, your posts, and whoever else was involved in the Kubrick/King thread? I'm sorry if my conclusive tone may have been provoking, I'm sorry if I might have come off as arrogant, but..
...don't lash at me, because I have a nasty tendency of lashing back. Hard.
Little Washu
Little Washu: We don't *want* to leave it at that. We *want* to argue about King and Kubrick and what have you. If you don't, skip our posts.
Chris: I agree that _The Shining_ was scary. The images that Danny saw in the room upstairs were nightmarish. However, there is no suspense. We know that Jack is going to go nuts because Nicholson plays him nuts from the first second. That is diametrically opposed to the message of the story.
Scott: Your assessment of why Kubrick's movie eviscerated King's novel was exactly what I wished I'd said. You da man.
Faisal: I "pick on" _The Shining_ because it is, IMO, a good novel, and Kubrick is a great director. Between the two of them, they could have made a great film. It's the disappointment that makes the failure of the movie so egregious.
Bermanator
Faisal:
I believe Dennis gets it from the physical consummation of the romance between the characters played by Walken and Brooke Adams, but Dennis neglects to recall that the child of Adam's character's (Johnny Smith's lost love, in this case) love interest is already born, and with he when she arrives at the home of Johnny Smith. The child is hers by marriage.
Scott
Dennis,
I don't know where you got that interpretation of the ending of the Dead Zone. The child could not possibly have been Christopher Walkens. I agree Cronenberg did a very good job but he had the benefit of an excellent adaptation by Jeffrey Boam, who sadly passed away a few years ago.
I have to defend Kubrick's adaptation of 'The Shining', it is an excellent film that jettisoned many of the cheesy elements of King's novel. The problem I feel is that new viewers approach it expecting a slasher horror movie, just by the presence of Stephen King's name. About as accurate an expectation as going to the cinema to watch Last Year in Marienbad because its apparently about infidelity. SK doesn't pile on the shocks but builds it up slowly and we gradually see a man who has pretensions towards writing but is suffering from alcoholism and this plays much better than if it followed the novel... which King tried to do and look what happened there.
I like King as a writer though I prefer his short stories to his novels. But there have been so many bad films made from his work, why take particular offence with The Shining? Not that I am suggesting a re-make of Children of the Corn...
FAQ
Ah, good, you all ignored my last post.
Off subject for a moment but relevant nonetheless...
I don't use my university's library often. That is, until today. Yes, I usually use the internet, what can I say? My experiences with the piss-poor library I had all through my years in high school put me off completely, I suppose. But, after re-reading one of Harlan's many posts of the value of GENUINE, HARD BOOKS IN YOUR HANDS as opposed to having a computer monitor suck your eyeballs out of their sockets, I decided to take him up on his challenge and visited my library.
Anyone with sensitive hearing leave the forum now.
MY GOD!!!! WHAT THE FUCK HAVE I BEEN MISSING?!?
I mean, I hate, hate, HATE being the next poor dope who proves that Harlan Ellison was 'right all along', but the unbelievable, utterly ridiculous extent that you can find the most SPECIFIC information if you know where to look...for example, I found ten books on hair follices. HAIR FOLLICLES!!!! DEAR ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!
As of now I have gathered five books on nineteenth-century Africa and the various tribes and peoples of the same continent as research for a particular story I'm developing. And, as Harlan roared at me across cyberspace, I will
LOOK. IT. UP.
You and I had our tiffs, Harl...but upon all that's cherished and good, thank you.
Little Washu (aka Benjamin A. A. Winfield)
P.S. Kubrick and King. King and Kubrick. Two men, two minds, two works of art. Let's leave it at that.
Rick:
Geez, Rick; PC!!!
That should read: "salad-tossing intellectually challenged person"
We wouldn't want to annoy the United World Christian Friends, now wouldn't we?
I'm inclusive, I'm Scott
Jay:
Don't you see? They've found you, Jay; Robertson, Falwell, Limbaugh, all of them, Jay.
All it will cost you is your soul....
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've taken to wearing garlic to warn them off, says a safely atheist Scott.
Rob:
"He was BRILLIANT and funny as hell in "The Shining", and "Batman"."
Well, in your perspective (and this view might require a trip to the Lens Crafters for art: better aesthetics in an hour or your money cheerfully refunded), Mr Nicholson may have been brilliant, but in light of the other roles mentioned (I neglected "Chinatown"; that bad is mine) the Torrance and Joker characters come off as good ole Jack doing these ones for the paycheck.
The problem in both cases isn't talent. Jack's got that to spare; the problem is the roles. Both come off to me as weak, one dimensional characters; we don't see any other facets of personality other than the descent into madness, and the violence that results.
Jack Torrance is a case in point. At least within the novel, I had a sense that Torrance was at least giving some form of resistance to the Overlook's increasing pull upon his psyche, as he tries to maintain his control. Watching the struggle Torrance would fight for his self would've played out far more effectively even if Kubrick had utlimately decided that Torrance should lose that war against the evil manifest in the hotel.
For Nicholson, it was no win. Kubrick had gutted the book with impunity, not listening to what King had to say about personal guilt, responsibility, and isolation. If Kubrick had enough sense to realize that the truest terror comes from the audience seeing their own fears on the screen (somebody should've shown Kubrick a few Val Lewton films), rather than a man being taken over by special effect-created supernatural forces, the movie would've been far better and Nicholson would've had something of real value to work with.
Now, the Joker? Same problem. The Joker was always created to be the backdrop for Batman, and within the mass-market mentality of the movie business, he had to remain one-dimensional. Please folks, the producers have to think in scope much wider than satisfying the purists and fans of the Dark Knight, so the film has to be in the middle of the road. Jack did this one for the big paycheck; all the script called for was his laughing, sadism, and acts of violence. For what it was worth, he was the best thing in a middling film. Micheal Keaton walking throughout with a dour expression on his face and emoting like he was placed on massive doses of Seroquel was hardly a counterpoint. This one was made for the money, and make money it did.
Now, an effctive performance of a King character on the big screen?
How about Christopher Walken, in David Cronenberg's "The Dead Zone"?
Going to see about ordering the dvd set of "The Prisoner" is Number 3, aka Scott
What the hell is this on the Want Ads Page? It's a frigging pyramid novel!
"God's Money 4 U
United States - Wednesday, February 13 2002 2:22:14
!!! Good News !!!
“God Bless America”
United World Christian Friends"
Rick,
Been watching "Jay and Silent Bob" today, you salad-tossing webmaster?
Anyway, thanks for the preview button. How about a spellchecker for the incompetent (read: me)?
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Just kidding about the spellchecker.
Since you guys are getting more and more garrulous here, I've added a "Preview" button to the comments form that will allow you to check out your message before you post.
This will allow you to check format and spelling, and possibly also consider whether you really wanted to call that guy a "salad-tossing retard."
Enjoy!
Anyone who doesn't think Kubrick's The Shining is scary is, quite simply, either stark raving mad or an alien of some kind. Definitely not a person who processes data or emotion in the same way as I or anyone else I know does.
The book is OK but uninspired and uninvolving. Neat idea, mediocre execution, mediocre characterization.
I'm going to chime in for a Stephen King movie I haven't seen in anyone else's lists yet. For best adaptation I point to "The Dead Zone".
I think David Cronenberg did an amazing job capturing the feel of the book. The only negative in the whole thing for me was his change of the ending to have the child Martin Sheen's character hides behind be the son of Johnny Smith's ex-girlfriend. Seems to be pouring it on a little too thick there.
Dennis
Rob~ WTF?! After much pouring over the archives, I can only assume that my address to you (w/o my usual "re:", something I won't omit in the future) was in regards to your well wishes to my mother, when in fact the "dead dog" remark was in regards to the kiddie porn thread which was getting really tiresome. I'm sorry I didn't thank you personally for your well wishes, which I will do now. Next time I tell you you've got a deceased canine on your hands, I will be more specific.
::sigh::
L.
What is this crap about THE SHINING being the best film adaptation of a Stephen King novel? THE SHINING is a technical masterpiece and provides a few good chills but it isn't scary. Why is it not scary? Because you don't give a flying monkey's cock about whether anybody in the movie lives and dies, except Halloran, because nobody is truly characterized. Except Halloran. Danny is a zombie from beginning to end; Shelly Duvall is open victim throughout and even when she DOES fight back, she's less than convincing; and Jack is...well, Jack.
Everyone keeps coming up with differences between King and Kubrik's visions. I think it comes down to a phone call King recalled in a few interviews in the eighties. Alledgy, Kubrik called King late one night, woke him up and asked, "Do you believe in god?"
"Yeah," King replied. "I guess."
"Oh," Kubrik replied. "I don't." And he hung up.
Now, I'm not saying it's because one believed and one didn't. Anyone who visits this site knows that an atheist is willing to believe anything while they are writing. The characters should lead the way. I'm an atheist but I can believe for the sake of a story I'm writing. You have to. Apparently, Kubrik wasn't. And when he tried to inject supernatural elements, they didn't feel right.
King's book and his miniseries had feeling. Kubrik's vision had style. I'm sorry, but give me feeling over style any time, folks.
Oh, yeah. I almost forgot. I thought the books hedge animals were terrifying. I mean, hedges moving isn't scary, but the way they seemed to just creep when you weren't looking. Like when the old lady in the tub slowly wrapped her hands around Danny's neck...
Brrrrr. Okay. I'm back to lurking.
Lynn,
Last time I heard from YOU you were telling me to fuck off (to put it in my OWN words) per my wishing your mother well.
At any rate, you were the only one to bring up 'Oscar' - I sure didn't. I was just helping Scott find the words he meant to use in his last post poitinent to this thread.
Infoman~ Thank you very much for the Salon interview with Dan Simmons. Probably had the most impact on me of anything I've read in months.
Rob~ Get serious. Jack was *good* in Batman (don't tell me I don't appreciate the film - I saw it *8* times in the theatre), but he wasn't *fantastic*. He was camp and ghoulish humor and definitely better than any other actor in the picture (except the guy that played Alfred). But not even in my twisted imagination was that an Oscar quality performance.
L.
A couple thoughts:
Jack: Jack Nicholson was GREAT in "Five Easy Pieces" and "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" and was fucking incredible in "The Last Detail".
He was BRILLIANT and funny as hell in "The Shining", and "Batman".
Well, Jon (or anyone else), if you happen to want to check out any of the ABC books and would rather have the real books in their original format instead of those nasty ol' TPBs, I am in the process of selling off a large chunk of my way too large collection and I have most of the early runs of the ABC books and I give real nice deals. Honest, I do.
In fact, if any other comic book fans have runs (esp. of Marvel titles) they want to fill out, I am selling lots of stuff and selling it at half or less of Guide price.
I won't use the list to "advertise" my sale but if anyone is interested, we could help each other out. I can't take everything with me when I move but I don't want to sell it to some heartless "pay by the pound" dealer either. And certain books aren't worth the risk of putting on eBay.
My e-mail address is listed above if anyone is interested.
OK, so the movie is from Danny's POV, and Danny is incapable of seeing his father as anything but a monster? Nah, I don't buy it. I think the novel reflects both Danny and Jack's POV, and for the sake of length, I can see cutting it to the kid's POV. I just don't think freezing to death made any sense at all. I think Kubrick cut corners on the story, bigtime. All style, no substance.
Rob: Did you read the novel _The Shining_? If not, perhaps not a good idea to comment on whether or not the movie is better?
Also, if we're criticizing the boiler motif in _The Shining_ as corny, and we really wanted to see worms come out of Jack's head, AND we have no perspective on the overwhelming corny-ness of _Forbidden Planet_, then we MUST question our ability to discern the presence of corn, mustn't we now?
You still haven't read _Heart of Darkness_, have you?
Bermanator
And for all you lunatics, this evening's full moon will be at perigee, the closest point to earth on its orbit. This means the moon will actually appear 9% larger than usual and can be as much as 20% brighter than usual.
Roadtrip to Mojave anyone?
L.
Jon,
Top Ten is by far the best of the ABC books. To me, Tom Strong is second, though it can have it's weak moments. What used to be a strong second to me was Promethea....this book was beautifully unique with fabulous art....now it's starting to grate on my nerves....with fabulous art. I wouldn't call these fun....but if you are in an overintellectualizing mood, go for it.
Tomorrow Stories are often weak.
As for miniseries, The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen is super.....I haven't read my issues of Greyshirt: Indigo Sunset yet, but that won't be out in TP yet anyway.
-TODD
A couple thoughts:
Jack: Jack Nicholson was GREAT in "Five Easy Pieces" and "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" and was fucking incredible in "The Last Detail".
He was lousy in "The Shining", and "Batman".
The best performance of the Jack Torrance character is one Homer Simpson, in "The Shinning". (Got to remember that: don't want to be sued)
Scott
King even wished that they would have used the killer hedge animal theme. A very idiotic idea in an otherwise wonderful novel.
Jack is the magician of American cinema; how could anyone not love his performance in Batman? Never thought Cesar Romero could be replaced, but boy was I wrong. Jack's laugh wasn't as good, but the Jokers more evil side came out great in the movie.
Actually I have occasional correspondence with Chomsky. But I won't mention his name. Lol.
Hey all you Zimheads out there.
HOT TOPIC has Zim wear. And Zim Patches. And Gir patches. And Gir wear. And key chains and shoelaces and all sorts of useless crap.
They even have a plush Zim that is going on top of my monitor right next to my Cthulhu plushie.
Heh. Heh. Heh.
L.
Jon:
There's a few you might like:
A Love Supreme
John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman (get the remaster, it's incredible!)
Giant Steps
The Complete Columbia Recordings: 1955 - 1961 (The complete Trane and Miles Davis sessions) (Boxed set)
The Complete Village Vanguard Sessions: 1961 (Boxed set)
Live at Birdland (Remastered)
Hepcat Scott
Chris,
I'm inclined to agree - if I'm interpreting you accurately - that Kubrick basically shows everything from Danny's pov; what the people around him represent, his fears and his divinations. Even Halloran is reduced to a 'tool', a convenience to provide the Sno-Cat at the precise time needed. I didn't read the book but I saw King's tv-movie version with literally EVERYTHING explained for the boneheads out there in need of it; thought it was pretty dumb, with very little scary about it. If the book resembles it there were many good reasons for Kubrick's reinterpretation.
As for the boilier symbolism, there may have been several reasons for Kubrick dropping it; perhaps he just thought it was too corny. I still think its meaning as King intended somewhat conflicts with Kubrick's dispassionate objectives.
I'm STILL glad he replaced the "hedge animals" with the maze. I never thought there was anything "chilling" about the concept.
And one idea I sometimes wish Kubrick HAD kept intact for the very end was the fancy of showing Jack's frozen head crack open revealing a mass of worms his brain had degenerated into. That was a prospect brainstormed in early development.
A truly random postscript:
1) Any suggestions on what John Coltrane albums or collections are essential, or at least good places to start building?
2) Has anyone read enough of Alan Moore's ABC work to suggest a ranking of which tpbs to buy in what order? *Top Ten* seems to be the consensus pick wherever I've read up on the stuff, with *Tom Strong* tending to get ranked last.
Jon
Daredevil:
Jay -- it may be the same figure; the modelling, especially of the face, is clearly Quesada's DD, but it's not called "the Quesada Daredevil" (which, come to think of it, sounds like either a drink or a Hispanic version of Sasquatch or the Mothman).
Jon
Berman,
Until you straighten yourself out on 'Forbidden Planet' your counter is but a belch from the boiler.
...this seemed like the right kind of day to fling shit at SOMEONE.
DAMMIT, I did it again. Three times now. Grr. This is the only bulletin board I have ever seen that swallows up anything you put in between marks but I gotta remember that it does that.
What I was responding to was this:
**Lurk: The film of _The Shining_ "transcends the novel's modest themes"? By transforming Jack from a complex, ambivalent, threee dimensional character into a simple, plain old monster? Not sure how that could possibly be so.**
>
Basically because it's a mistake to focus on Jack. He's not that interesting a character.
I think that's the part King can't or won't get past in his criticism of the film. To him, The Shining is all about Jack. To Kubrick, Jack is of almost no interest.
I agree with Kubrick and I think he made the correct and crucial decision to switch the focus from Jack to more of a focus on Danny and the Overlook.
Jack just doesn't cut it as a protagonist. He's not all that complex or three-dimensional anyway. He's OK. He's not a terrible character by any means - that's not what I'm saying. But he's not NEARLY as interesting as either Danny or the Overlook. Or even Halloran. Kubrick saw that and made the changes. King doesn't agree.
Lurk: The film of _The Shining_ "transcends the novel's modest themes"? By transforming Jack from a complex, ambivalent, threee dimensional character into a simple, plain old monster? Not sure how that could possibly be so.
Also, _Shawshank_ was a novella, not a short story. Just had to nitpick that.
Bermanator
Scariest film ever:
Alien
Bermanator
Rob: Overall, I enjoyed Kubrick's _The Shining_, because it stylishly invokes the horror of the Overlook, and I do generally like Jack. However, for several reasons I disagree with your analysis.
First, I realize the root cause for Jack's deterioration is not his alcoholism. It wasn't the point in the novel either. The Overlook merely uses that problem as a means to weaken Jack. The heart of Jack's problem is the horrifying abuse he suffered at the hands of his father; this created a rage inside of him that periodically flared up and screwed up his life. Hence, the boiler image: if Jack did not "tamp down the boiler" or keep a tight rein on his rage, he would "blow up." Thus, the boiler is an extremely clever metaphor and the explosion is the best possible ending of the story. Why change what was already great?
I think Kubrick took the easy way out, narratively speaking, by removing the boiler motif. Yes, it might have been challenging to allude to Jack's father, and to show him running down to the boiler obsessively, but hey. This is Kubrick we're talking about.
Yes, Jack was only one of a series of men corrupted by the hotel, all of whom were probably basically decent men with serious weaknesses, just like Jack. When Jack moved to the Overlook, he was in recovery. Jack is flawed, but I don't believe that psychosis was his true nature, nor is there much evidence to support that thesis. Not sure why Kubrick would want to decrease sympathy for Jack; can you back up this assertion? When the audience sympathizes with the main character, it is far more horrified when that character is destroyed. If you know he's nuts from the beginning, where's the suspense? Where's the creeping paranoia and fear? This is a basic element of storytelling that I can't imagine eluded Kubrick, but even the greatest make mistakes.
BTW, the classic moment to which you refer, the "All work and no play..." bit, happens in the hotel after Jack's unraveling had begun. It doesn't really reinforce your point about him being inherently nuts.
Also, how incredibly annoying was it that Dick Halloran drags his ass all the way to the hotel only to be senselessly chopped in half? What a waste, esp. when there is a very cool moment at the end of the book when Halloran is tempted to go evil but resists.
_Stand By Me_ and _Shawshank Redemption_ are better adaptations of King's novels, in my opinion.
Bermanator
Jay,
Personally, I loved Will Ferrel's multiple takes on departments no longer having jets. Damn, that man can be funny with the right material....
Oh, and speaking of hilariously silly movies, I see that UHF was announced today to be finally re-released on DVD and VHS in June. Already have my pre-order in.
Also, Jay, thanks for the hint on comiccompany.com. Nice selection over there. I'm, holding off on more stuff right now, as I just picked up the very nice "Earth X" Wolverine mini-bust. Nice bit of work , that, from the Alex Ross design. Looks great on top of my entertainment center.
Regards,
Joseph
>Jack's a monster and Danny escapes only through his own ingenuity and bravery<
Which is probably the "real reason" King didn't like the film. He gave a lot of other ones, at the time...but there's always a "real reason."
Kind of like Last Temptation of Christ. The protests against that movie (and Blockbuster's refusal to carry it for years) were supposedly because of sex scenes between Christ and Mary. But those were pretty pedestrian (nothing like Hershey's work in Boxcar Bertha, which featured similar scrumping in sheds on hay) The "real reason" methinks, is the re-appraisal of Judas's role...in this movie, he and Christ work together to turn Christ over, to ensure that the message gets out...I don't think your average thumper likes to feel he's been played like the mark that he is...
King Lurk
Yes, Joseph... all hail the 2-DVD J&SB Set for its 5 hours of time-wasting, profanity-laden and hilarious extras. My pick for DVD of the Week. Picking up SHAZAM! and Jakita Wagner today from my comic store. BTW, I found great figure deals at www.comiccompany.com Service was awesome, too. It's out of Decatur, GA.
King sympathized with Jack. Kubrick didn't. I think that's the biggest difference between the book and the movie.
The whole boiler room jazz is a device intended to give Jack his final moment of redemption. Like alcoholics, Jack experiences a moment of clarity at the end and gets to save Danny.
Kubrick snipped that whole bit right out of the story. Jack's a monster and Danny escapes only through his own ingenuity and bravery.
I liked Kubrick's choices much better.
I hear people always refer to the Shining as "uneven" or "flawed" and I guess it's not perfect but... it's damn good. It's the scariest film I have ever seen and I can't think of a candidate to even qualify as a reasonable second place.
It really might be the _only_ scary movie ever made.
I should only scary horror movie ever made, there are some documentaries that wind up being pretty horrifying. _Crumb_ still gives me the creeps. What a family!
Jay,
You're quite welcome for the recommendations, and here's to new comic day! To wit, the new Cage series from Brian Azzarello (part of the Marvel Max line) is fantastic. Cage is one bad mother....
Oh, and any Kevin Smith fans, set your VCRs for tonight's Tonight Show. There's a new short film with Dante and Randall stuck in a traffic jam. That and the outtake goodies on "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" should keep me busy for awhile.
Regards,
Joseph
I agree about Rob's assessment on The Shining. Stephen King's own protests to the contrary, this was the best film of a King book ever made, largely because it transcended the novel's own modest themes into something a larger.
I should qualify that: I haven't seen Green Mile and Shawshank is based on a short story.
But compared to other King-book movies, like Salem's Lot, Christine, Stand By Me, Pet Sematary, Carrie...some of these were quite good, but Kubrick's work is clearly in another league.
Coppolla's movie of the Godfather exceeds the book as well. Although I think there the improvement is considerably greater...The Shining is a better novel than the Godfather.
King lurk
Jon -
I think I have that, from the Spiderman Classics line but it contained a comic from back in the late 80s, a Christmas story of some sort, with the same stained glass background you described and a neck that made DD look like he's got a goiter. I bought it. No note of the Great Quesada anywhere. Oh well.
Joseph -
I've heard great things about Gold Apple in LA in Wizard for a place to meet comic-collecting geek celebrities. Ebay is good, too. Thanks. I'm looking for a few of the first Wave ones Bats, Supes, etc.
Ahh, basking in Comicgeekdom I am...my new Wizard and Previews.
FF Movie:
Frank -- Stuck in development hell at last report. Given that Chris Columbus was attached to it and that he's now cranking out the Harry Potter movies, I wouldn't hold my breath, but these things change pretty quickly.
Jon
The first ‘Shining’ film was Kubrick’s ‘The Shining’ not King’s. Inevitably a different voice and vision supplanted key aspects of the novel. The director’s misanthropic world view led to a black comedy as much as a horror film; he may have removed the boiler room metaphor to diminish sympathy for Jack and emphasize the psychosis he clearly had long before the day he brought his family to the Overlook (hence, the classic moment Wendy flips through the "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" manuscript). This aspect, Kubrick may have felt, conflicted with the point of the boiler room symbolism: alcoholism was NOT his central problem here. It was no longer applicable because Jack was made less a sympathetic character. Here the thesis is evil - the acts Jack was playing out in his mind - is perpetual (as inferred by the 1921 photo flashed at us at the end of the movie) because it lies in the choices human beings make. An interesting take on the movie I remember reading once by a critic said this was also the greatest horror film about writer’s block ever made: Jack Torrance (here) was about the actions and behavior of a tormented writer.
Except for the ending - which does annoy me because of such an ingenious, meticulous set-up with Halloran - I like just about the entire film very much because it made me laugh (for ex., the "heartwarming" father-to-son talk Jack has with his kid) and it has one of the bitchin'est music tracks of all time (in part by Wendy Carlos).
Re: Tim Burton’s first Batman film.
Overall, I thought it was great. And I love Nicholson, but the reasons the film worked so well are endless. There was a time I thought anyone who didn’t like it had something seriously wrong with them genetically. And I may not be wrong about that.
Customer Service Jay:
The Quesada-based Daredevil is in the Series II line of Spider-man Classics (yeah, I know -- enh?) from Grand Toys. He's 15 cm tall, has a stained glass window as a backdrop and one of the Quesada pin-ups/covers for a poster behind him. $10 including tax when I bought him at Zeller's; I assume there must be a lot of them out there.
The movie Spider-man figures are out as well (Battle Ravaged Spider-man, Spider-man, Norman Osborn, and Green Goblin). No wet tshirt Mary Jane yet, at least not here in Sensible City.
Jon
Various Items of Sundry Interest.
Item #1: Spike Milligan, a giant of British comedy, a founder of the enormously influential Goons, author of several wonderful books, has passed away.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_1843000/1843963.stm
Item #2: A new show titled _TruthQuest: California_ is attempting to adopt the style and tone of such shows as _The Real World_ from a fundamentalist Christian perspective. The plot of the show will center around a Winnebago of photogenically-enhanced Christian teens as they travel around the Seismic State, witnessing to the heathen. One reference to 'extreme sport religion, rock climbing and rappelling down steep cliffs with a Christian mountain climbing team that preaches in the park" strikes me as being more than a little Reifenstahlish, but goofiness and cheap laughs seem to be in the cards; as one of the producers says, "It won't be like The Real World in terms of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, or have all the back-stabbing of Big Brother or Survivor. But you put teens somewhere together without their parents and regardless of premise, you've got sexual tension."
I'd watch this show if _only_ for to savor the spectacle of young, healthy Xtian ladies endagering their eternal souls by surrendering their chastity to bewildered-but-horny Xtian boys not old enough to understand the Love that they pretend to feel for each other. Or, failing that, we can watch'em wiggle their tits.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,46524,00.html
Item #3: I just heard about a movie with very little publicity, and which seems destined for very limited release, but given the subject and the people who made it, I figure y'all might be interested. It's titled _Teddy Bears Picnic_, it's set in the yearly Bohemian Grove-like get-together of the Wealthy and Powerful Who Own the Country, and it's written and directed by Harry Shearer.
http://www.visionboxpictures.com/teddybearspicnic/
Good grief, I just had a brainstorm!
Harlan's going to mutilate me for this, but who would be WONDERFUL ACTORS in the roles of the five victims of AM in a film adaptation of I HAVE NO MOUTH, AND I MUST SCREAM?
NOBODY TAKE THIS POST SERIOUSLY, PLEEEEEEEEEEZZZZ!!!!
Here are my personal favourites:
TED: Daniel Day-Lewis
NIMDOK: Tom Baker
GORRISTER: Jeff Goldblum
ELLEN: Halle Berry
BENNY: Larry Drake
After this, let's start to cast THE VOICE IN THE GARDEN! I know who I want for Bernie! Ooooooooh, I'm gonna be lynched for this! Hee hoo ha ha ha hee hoo ha!!!!!!
Little Washu, whose laboratory needs more oxygen in it.
While I'm yakking so much today: DVD Pick Of The Week!
I just picked up The Larry Sanders Show Season One. This was one of the funniest teevee shows ever, and I'm glad that HBO has decided to put their best series up on DVD......and I hope they continue to support these season collections. Season One and Two of The Sopranos, Season One of Oz coming soon, I don't give a rat's ass about Sex In The City but many others do.
Here's to waiting with anticipation for Season One of Six Feet Under, their best series next to Sopranos.
-TODD
Jay,
A few options for the DC Direct figures (I presume you mean the ones from the last decade or so?)
1) eBay. Never a bad choice, and comics stuff is very popular on it.
2) A comics store, especially one that has a good collection of toys & statues. My two suggestions to call are Chicago Comics, 773.528.1983 (ask for Eric or Seth, tell 'em I sent you), or Jay & Silent Bob's Secret Stash, 732-758-0020 (yes, it's the Kevin Smith comic store - great selection).
Additionally, I can't recommend them as I've never been there, but I've heard many good things about Golden Apple in LA, 888.235.2400.
Regards,
Joseph
Y'know, everytime I log on and off of this page, I always catch out of the corner of my eye that smilin' picture of Harlan himself....to me, I always see him holding up a globe.....until I remember (or look closer) that it's one of his Edgeworks books. I kinda like the globe picture of my mind better: Harlan Ellison holding the world in his hands.
-TODD
DK2: On the plus side, Miller is doing a great job at showing the short-attention-span sound-byte media pop culture of his dystopian world. Really well done. On the downside, through 2 issues of a 3 issue series, the story is still incoherent and uninvolving. In this Dark Knight, Batman is, quite simply, a blood-thirsty asshole and I hope Superman beats him into a bloody pulp.
THE SHINING: I always thought the ending of the book was terrible, as if King felt he need the cliched "big explosion" to get people's attention. The movie's ending is vastly superior. The book does a much better job with the character of Jack Torrance than the movie but the movie does a much better job with the "character" of The Overlook. I strongly prefer the film to the book (ain't even close) which I guess means I'm not allowed to join King's fan club. I think The Shining is one of King's more pedestrian efforts.
Speaking of Coppola: I sure wish I could find a copy of ONE FROM THE HEART on dvd (doesn't exist), or even just see the damn thing on cable teevee some day. I would love to be able to assess that film now that it's been long killed by the critics. I saw it at the movies the one week it opened, and I don't remember a damn thing about it except some real neon colorful shots and something about a dance on a not so high wire.
Why can't this movie be released for purchase? HEAVEN'S GATE is out there, fer cripes sake, all 9 or 10 or god knows how many hours of that self-indulgent piece of shit.....why can't we get ONE FROM THE HEART out there? It's probably Coppola's last film all his own....as opposed to the director for hire crud he's been forced to do.
-TODD
Washu Pequeño: The greater-than and less-than symbols are used to demarcate HTML code. The PERL app that Rick is using to create this webpage (the app basically takes this comment and pastes it between intro and last comment) doesn't want you to use HTML, so it ignores any text between the greater-than and less-than symbols. I know, I know, it caught me by surprise the first couple of times, too.
L.
King Lurk - I have to agree. I much preferred Romero as The Joker. Paint over the moustache aside, he really did an excellent job combining camp and psychosis. The Bad Guys being old hands really covers what was great about that old show. It certainly didn't have a great crop of stories. Julie Newmar and Yvonne Craig in profoundly stirring outfits were a plus, too.
"The Jack" was wonderful as always, but I recently watched "Hang Em High" and "The Cowboys" again in short order and Ellison's right - Bruce Dern would make a great Joker for film. You can't compete on screen with Jack. Keaton was just out-hammed.
David - Re: Superman and "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" is the definitive guide to Kryptonian plumbing. It was presented in my "Feminism in Science Fiction" class at Penn State. Oh THAT didn't go over too well.
WHAT QUESADA DAREDEVIL FIGURE?!?!? Where can I find this beautiful, magical beast?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! My eyes are burning... don't touch it, it's EVIL!
From Dark Horizons: "Variety reports that Coppola's American Zoetrope and Myriad Pictures have struck a five-picture deal which'll include three new projects... The three new projects include the [HERE IT COMES, BRACE YOURSELF] Joel Schumacher directed adaptation of Jack Kerouac's "On the Road" in which Schumacher wants Colin Farrell to portray illustrious drifter Neal Cassady, [DID YOU FEEL THE SOUL TORN FROM YOUR BODY AS I DID?]
GREAT! I can just see the reader's synopsis: When a Soviet space capsule crash lands at Big Sur with radioactive material leaking from its power source, it's up to Neal Cassady, (an ex-Marine, philosopher and roadhouse manager) to avert world war four, rescue the beautiful Soviet cosmonaut and blow up lots of stuff. Also will include extended surfing sequences with Cassady and his beatnik friend "Joel" in wetsuits riding the waves and running up and down the beach in slow motion.
Sorry, Lurkie, that space after your name was supposed to have your quote "Let's not forget the scene where the Joker is dancing to Prince and tossing dollar bills around in the street. Kind of sums up how stupid the whole project was." What the heck happened there?
Konnichi wa, folks!
KING LURK: >
Oh yes, not to mention the moment when the pathetic, weenie humans assaulted the big, nasty monkeys in 'POTA' at the movie's climax and somehow managed to kick the snot out of them despite the fact that an ordinary chimpanzee can tear off your arm and beat you to death with it if he didn't like how you SMELLED...but I'm not picking on Mr. Burton anymore.
Off subject for a moment: I'm a little off-kilter right now, having learned that the Bush Administration intends to give back the rights to torture and assasinate criminals to the CIA. Oh, beautiful. Oh, terrific. That's grand.
First of all...is BIN LADEN STILL EVEN ALIVE FOR CHRIST'S SAKES?!?! I've seen the last video broadcast of Osama, and he looked horrible. If Bin Laden really is gone by now and the government is simply enticing the public on with cries of indignation against a maniac who might be WORM-MEAT, for what purpose? America, don't self-destruct. Don't make more enemies. Being the most powerful country in the world, heaven knows you already have enough of them.
Second of all...is returning the right to hurt and threaten all in the name of 'the country' such a wise idea? America shouldn't be so concerned about coming off as a bunch of wimps and focus on rectifying stuff OTHER than it's important image. It's one thign to be a weakling, but it's another to jump head-first into amorality and behave only according 'to your job.' That's why I'm concerned about this CIA business, A LOT.
Little Washu, made sadly a bit more cynical about the good ol' Red, White and Blue. Dagnabbit.
Since there's so much talk about Superman, I have to tell a story about when I was in college and read a magazine story about the upcoming Superman II feature. It said that Superman would actually end up in bed with Lois. I told my friend Victoria about this and commented: Wouldn't that be kind of dangerous? I mean, what if, in the throes of passion, Superman went nuts and lost control? He could drill you right through the floor. Victoria said, "Yeah, but what a way to go!"
Little Washu:
There are, of course, plenty of photos of me on my Web site: www.david-loftus.com
Leetle Washu, re: Nightmare Before Christmas-- Tim Burton wrote the story, which was adapted to screenplay by Michael McDowell, I think. NBC was brilliant, no question.
King Lurk--your comments re: Nicholson as the Joker are almost exactly the reason why Stephen King so disliked Jack as Jack in Kubrick's_The Shining_. King wanted the movie to show the slow deterioration of a basically normal guy into a violent psychopath; Nicholson always seems wacked, so no process is shown and thus the point of the novel is negated. I've heard he wanted Michael Moriarty for the part. That would have been interesting.
Speaking of _The Shining_: does anyone know why Kubrick chose to eviscerate the book by changing the ending? The boiler was the symbol of Jack's inner alcoholic rage and self-destructiveness; the fact that he forgets to tamp it down and it blows both him and the Overlook into oblivion is the perfect ending. Why change it? Freezing to death misses the point entirely.
Bermanator
Action Figure Man:
Well, I'm up now.
Jay -- I caved in and bought the Quesada-based *Daredevil* action figure yesterday. I'm sure it will have many fine adventures beating up my George Bell, Duke (from Doonesbury), and Don Mattingly action figures until the 12-inch Hulk finally puts it in line.
King Lurk -- *Batman* seemed to mark the last appearance of the two-dimensional "antic Nicholson" who had been plaguing films since around about *The Shining.* I don't know if Nicholson purged this acting nemesis with *Batman* or if the lucre from *Batman* ($60 million?) meant that Nicholson didn't feel compelled to do blockbuster roles again, but whatever the cause, his film work since *Batman* seems to be a return to 60s and 70s form.
John Lithgow in Buckaroo Banzai gets my nomination for 'praised over-the-top performance that I don't get.' Painful, man. And Lithgow's turn in *Cliffhanger* is almost as painful. And John Malcovich in *Con Air*? Ai, shub-niggurath.
Actually, Nicholson's performance in *Batman* looks like a tour de force compared to his supervillains-in-movies running mates. Oh, sorry, Pacino. Pacino in *Dick Tracy* is fine.
Terence Stamp in *Superman II* -- now there's a villain.
Jon
To ALL: Infoman sez, if you need a break from discussing comic books and want to hear what Dan Simmons has to say about "...such topics as the state of both genre and 'serious (literary) fiction, the bout of depression that figured in the writing of his latest novel and what it's like to live between two literary worlds," go check out the interview ("The Outsider") at Salon.com.
Here's a direct address to the piece:
(www.salon.com/books/int/2002/02/27/simmons/index.html)
No mention of Ellison, but plenty of good conversation.
--Informationally, the man.
King Lurk....I said Nicholson is the only thing worth seeing in BATMAN, and your note putting him down for being Nicholson and not the Joker is exactly what I'm getting at. Who gives a shit about the Joker? About Cesar Romero (see my comment on why I don't care about who played Catwoman and Penguin on teevee...and why I don't care about the comics.....I'm expressing my enjoyment of the 2nd Batman movie as a Tim Burton film. To hell with the comic and teevee show and their creators who I am not bringing into the conversation.....I like Jack in BATMAN, I like Danny and Michelle in BATMAN RETURNS, I don't care if they do service to comic books or teevee).
I always enjoy Jack Nicholson. His service to the other media incarnations of Batman is not my concern.
-TODD
>only Nicholson makes BATMAN worth viewing<
It's time to finally, after a solid decade of accolades for this performance, to sound the voice of dissent on this canard.
In no time, ever, could I as a viewer forget that I was watching Jack Nicholson "act" as the Joker. A rather chunky Joker too. Sure, Nicholson as bemused lunatic is always fun to watch, but did it server the comic book? Did it serve the film, other than to make Michael Keaton look pale by comparison?
Let's not forget the scene where the Joker is dancing to Prince and tossing dollar bills around in the street. Kind of sums up how stupid the whole project was.
Cesar Romero was a better Joker. Sure, the 60s show was a lampoon, but Romero inhabited the role, and projected a menace, however comic, that all of Nicholson's leering couldn't come near. And the comparisons grow more odious: Burgess Meredith was light years ahead, decades away from Danny DeVito's godawful take as the Penguin. And as for Jim Carrey's Riddler, don't even GO THERE. The Mask in tights.
While the Adam West show was often silly, the villians were generally cast with old pros who knew how to act and not eat film every time they had a scene. The Batman movies were all about money...how much can we spend on sets, how much can we spend on effects, and how much can we spend on famous actors to play hambone Halloween party with classic characters.
King Curmudgeon.
Jon - "But I'm afraid I've turned into a "wait for the tpb" sort of guy when it comes to comic book buying."
Yep. I'm feeling that way, too, especially since I'm tired of long, drawn out story arcs that go nowhere after 8 months. I don't feel bad if I hear about books like Top 10 or Ultimate Spider-Man that defy my initial thought that they're gimmicks. They'll end up in Trade Paperback format for less than collecting each issue. Now Marvel's going to archive all its books this way. I'm trying to think of books I actually look forward to getting every month. Transmet, Planetary, Authority (if it does come out...only one issue left), Daredevil, etc.
On the whole, JLA and Avengers have been pretty dull. ULTIMATES looks promising. JSA seems more interesting overall.
Tim Burton - Visually very pretty, complex, and interesting. Ed Wood was brilliant. Didn't see Planet of the Apes because I really don't care to see how millions of dollars can be spent remaking a movie I wasn't fond of to begin with. I think I said it before, but I compare it to Stephen King rewriting "Of Mice and Men"... WHY? (Oh, btw...Happy Birthday Mr. Steinbeck.)
Actually, in the case of PotA, I guess it would be, Why would Peter David try to rewrite "Dragonlance"?
Oh, and a side note - Every week, I continue to get these pleas from African nationals, rebels, princes and generals offering me a cut of fortunes if I let them deposit their money in my checking account. I'm curious if anyone knows the souce of this bullshit and if any one has been more successful at blocking their email? Just checking.
My best to all.
Jay
I mean Todd.
Rob: No 24 DVD set - damn - that puts a hurt on my mood.
And regarding Frank - could the Chomsky thing be the next generation of Web Ad - a subtle mix of repetition and plug. Hey Frank, how much do you get per mention? lol
Frank: I gotta know.....one buddy to another......when you DON'T mention Chomsky in one of your notes, do you break out into a cold sweat???
Xanadu: Unfortunately, the 24 folks have already said that there will be no DVD. Though it is a blast of a show, they don't see a profit in packaging it into a DVD. My take on the assassination plot, from about the 4th episode on, has always been........
POSSIBLE SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
----------------------------------
The candidate's wife is behind the assassination. She seems to get more and more Hillary Clintonesque (power hungry and shifty) as it goes along. Kill off the honest hubby right before the elections, run for President herself (as many widows often do when their political hubbies die) and take over the world Nyah ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!
END OF POSSIBLE SPOILER END OF SPOILER END OF SPOILER
-------------------------------------------------------
Tim Burton Thread: BATMAN RETURNS never gets the credit it deserves. This is one of Burton's best (just behind ED WOOD in my book). The Tim Burton mood is consistent throughout, and for God's sake what could be better than DeVito's absolutely over the top Penguin, Pfeiffer's leather-hot Catwoman and even the insane Christopher Walken for dessert? Fuck all those people who have to jump in with their comic book comparison cries, or worse yet their sobbing of how much better Burgess Merideth and all three teevee Catwomen were God's gift to the world....this ain't the comic book and it ain't the teevee show....it is superb Burton. And to top it off, it is one of the best Danny Elfman scores ever! Simply beautiful. I was always disappointed when those two had a falling out over NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS and thus ED WOOD went Elfman-less.....but I'm thrilled they are back together, and I told that to Burton when I met him for 10 seconds for an autograph at the first test screening ever of SLEEPY HOLLOW. (his response to my mention that I can't wait to hear the Elfman score over the temporary track that was in the screening was a weak smile that my wife basically interpreted to mean "fuck you, dickhead, don't give me your Danny Elfman fanboy shit". Oh well, I saved his autograph anyway).
Burton may have fumbled some balls (APES was dreadful, and only Nicholson makes BATMAN worth viewing), but if he were to stop today, he will have on his resume some really good stuff: ED WOOD, BATMAN RETURNS, PEEWEE'S BIG ADVENTURE (yowza, loveit) and ED WOOD.
-TODD
DK2 - If you compare it to the original, it is pale. It would be unfair, however, to do that. So far, it's an interesting story, but nothing new. It's got some great moments that I won't reveal here. I'm expecting it to get better, but so far it's not as good as the first two books of, say "The Nail" or the entire "JLA: Year One" but it's a thousand times better than most of the prestige one-shot or multi-part Elseworld stories with knights and sorcerers and stupid ideas like putting apes in costumes or turning heroes into sticks of butter or whatever.
Anyone know where I can get ahold of some of the early "DC Direct" line of figures? I'm looking to fill the gaps in my JLA...um...collection. Hey. Why's everyone looking at me like that? I'm...not a geek...really. I just want to be complete. I've got my Planetary figures, my Preacher figures...and I'm really excited about the ones coming out for The Authorit..er, y. Stop looking at me like that. You'd rather I spend the money on crack?
Plus: I think Sally from NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS is pretty damn sexy, too...love dem stitches...hee hee...
ROB, LYNN, CINDY, etc: Yeah, I did make the capital mistake of saying that ALL of Tim Burton's work is shallow and soulless. I think the more creative control Tim is allowed on his picture the more truly genuine it is. For example, Tim Burton laid down the law on BATMAN RETURNS and refused to come back on board until he was given utterly undisputed power over the project. This was not foolish, I think; after the success of the first BATMAN, Tim was in the right position to do this. No matter how many anal-retentive fans scream, 'IT'S NOT BATMAN!', at least it's pure TIM BURTON. As for THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS...well, he didn't even DIRECT that one, and his name is plastered all over the title! How involved was Tim exactly witht hat movie? (I have to admit, though, that I loved the opening number. "This is Halloween, this is Halloween...")
PLANET OF THE APES was just plain wrong. 'Reimagining' indeed...
BRIAN SIANO: Oh, JERRY FALWELL! Well, that's a completely different matter entirely.
Little Washu, retiring back to the laboratory...
Hey Jon,
You still up?
:)
Cindy
Hey Lynn,
I'm with you-- Tim Burton IS a special sort and The Nightmare Before Christmas is a classic.
Oh, by the bye, Lynn, you can consider yourself even now. For the rest of the night I'll be struggling to stop the "Halloween" song
now endlessly playing in my head.
Sleepy Hollow had worlds of potential but when he pulled out those "glasses" or whatever the hell they were supposed to be they lost me entirely.
Distraction wrecks even the carefully constructed web
of suspended disbelief.
Cindy
p.s. Hello my baby, hello my honey, hello my ragtime gaaaaal--
LOL! Payback's a bitch!
One would think that libertarians would have enough to worry about with the change from the dewy decimal system and all-- the last thing you'd reckon they'd be interested in is running for public office. Anyway don't they like alot of QUIET?
Cindy
DK2:
I find it a hard book to evaluate -- I'm not 18, and so even if it was (or is) the equal of Dark Knight Returns, I'm not the person who voraciously read and re-read Dark Knight (and Watchmen) as they came out in serial form.
Now, we've got 15 years of revisionist superhero material between the Dark Knight Returns and this. It's not the oft-quoted "this is just Miller's *Kingdom Come*" idea that grinds on me -- it's Ellis's *Storm Watch*, *Authority* and *Planetary*; it's Morrison's *Doom Patrol* and *JLA*; it's -- well, you get the idea.
I think it's a good book. I would have liked to have seen Miller's *Jesus* (which may have only been a rumour) more, but it's a fine piece of work. I think Morrison's "Rock of Ages" storyline in JLA or Ellis's run on *Storm Watch* and *Authority* are better works of this type than *DK2*. Actually, I'd be willing to argue that the two issues of *JLA* set in the alternate "Darkseid Wins" future represent the high point of the entire "Cosmic Powers Battle for the Future of Humanity While We Also Question the Nature of Super-heroes in General and in the Specific" sub-genre and are worthy bridges between Dark Knight Returns and, say, the Fantastic Four's first battle with Galactus. But I think I may be too wonky over Morrison's writing to offer sound judgment here.
BTW, which characters don't you recognize?
Jon
While we're on about superheroes... any thoughts on Frank Miller's "Dark Knight 2" yet?
I'm still undecided. The narrative's not as solid nor as focused as the first, and Miller's style's become a lot more fragmented, more reliant on bit of sentences and segments. It reminds me a LOT of James Ellroy's _White Jazz_, in which there's nary a complete sentence in the actual narrative-- it's all the thoughts of Ellroy's hero cop. Miller's been developing an analogue to this same impressionistic style in comics.
But it's a bit hard to take it in this particular comic, because there are already a couple of superheroes/villains who I do NOT recognize. I haven't kept up with all the various DC "universes," so I'm probably missing something, but there are at least two vaguely human blobs whose backstory I'm expected to know.
But other than that, it's terrific fun.
Jon,
"Miller's Captain America in the Miller/Mazzuchelli run of Daredevil is my favourite rendition of Cap"
Mine too; in fact it was the only rendition I ever liked. It was the first time I ever saw the nature of the WWII serum experiments given some detail (through the discovery of his deluded Jingoistic send-up Ollie North/Swartzenegger counterpart barking "Our boys" and little else, psychotically...and hilariously): various "plastics" in his skin.
Chris,
I'll never forget the refreshingly arrogant "This proves I'm the best" speech Martin Landau gave at the Oscars for his Best Supporting Actor victory from 'Ed Wood'.
Little Washu~ Re: Tim Burton.
Sometimes it takes a cold and soulless environment to make the living things within the scene become more vibrant, more vital. Edward Scissorhands is classic Burton. Sleepy Hollow and PotA paid the bills (that's what I'm gonna keep telling myself). Sleepy Hollow had it's moments but for the most part, the studio execs got made to order Burton, not inspired Burton. And The Nightmare Before Christmas is one of my all-time favorites.
L.
Superman credits - Brian. Probably the LONGEST and DULLEST credits ever. Second to Star Trek TMP
The Special Edition Superman DVD is great in its screen tests and behind the scenes material. I agree Christopher Reeve IS Superman and I'm not saying that because he's in a chair and I should feel consoling and nostalgic. He made Clark Kent a strong, likeable character. The scene where he returns to Lois' apartment as Clark after taking Lois on her first flight as Superman: He removes his glasses and prepares to tell Lois his secret as she dreamily changes clothes. He doesn't JUST remove the glasses, he CHANGES. straightens his spine, sharpens the features of his face and narrows his eyes. THERE, Superman is wearing Clark's suit.
Good stuff.
Hulk and Captain America:
Little Washu: The copy I have of the Ellison Hulk story is in one of those cut-and-pasted Marvel colour paperbacks of the early 1980s (the little ones with three stories, not the microfilmic page-for-pagers of the 70s or the trades). That's probably the cheapest way to find the story as a back issue; I don't know what the original issue runs for.
Let's Rap with Cap: Miller's Captain America in the Miller/Mazzuchelli run of Daredevil is my favourite rendition of Cap, short or arc. Waid did some nice things, I thought, but Cap's ...ahem... relationship with his shield over Waid's second run on the title got a little wonky for my tastes. Engelhart's Cap was nice, although I've never been able to round up an entire run to assess it as a whole.
Jon
Time Burton Thread - I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the fairy tale that was Edward Scissorhands...
Another Note: For those who have continued to watch the Fox drama 24 - The initial run of 13 episodes is now over - what do you think? - can they amp the tension of the show any higher for the final eleven, or will it seem like an overlong epilogue? More than once, I was on the edge of my seat and completely blown away by the twists - this is a show that'll get my bucks on DVD just for what I've seen so far...
Chris,
Personally, the Krypto story was too cutesy for me. Vastly preferred the Darick Robertson piece in 3000+ Earth, or the story about dreams with Lucien.
Washu,
Shit. Looks like I saw that Rick Baker story in September and then never saw that it was retracted. Damn Variety. Cest'la'vie.
Joseph
Chris,
Personally, the Krypto story was too cutesy for me. Vastly preferred the Darick Robertson piece in 3000+ Earth, or the story about dreams with Lucien.
Washu,
Shit. Looks like I saw that Rick Baker story in September and then never saw that it was retracted. Damn Variety. Cest'la'vie.
Joseph
Re Tim Burton. I used to like his movies, especially since they had the strong sense of coming from someone at least as geeky as I-- and who evidently loved the work of Edward Gorey. And on balance, his body of work is pretty good; _Beetlejuice_ is fun, and both _Edward Scissorhands_ and _Ed Wood_ succeed as fables and as very personal movies.
But I really wish he'd never taken up the reins on _Sleepy Hollow_ or _Planet of the Apes_. _Sleepy Hollow_ could have been a TREMENDOUS piece of work; I kept thinking of all sorts of wonderful ways of staging Ichabod's ride through the hollow while being stalked by the Horseman. But the movie turned into a pretty hokey episode of _Scooby Doo_. And _Planet of the Apes_ was just not worth doing.
Chris Reeve as Clark Kent. I thought his Clark was a little hokey, but the whole NYC part of the film was closer in spirit to a comic book anyway, so it worked for me. (Anyone remember the titles? That glide-in over the 1930's _Daily Planet_ logo right into the most overblown titles ever filmed? That bombastic John Williams score? JESUS, I loved it. One of the best titles sequences ever filmed.)
Little Washu: You are right about the definition of the term "libertarian." But do not confuse this with the self-professed Libertarian Party-- after all, we don't believe that Jerry Falwell's Liberty University really stands for _liberty_, do we? The sign does not mean the signifier, Little Washu. Now take the pebble from my hand.
Ang Lee working from a Stan Lee chracter; maybe they'
ll merge in that digital recreation of Bruce Lee, add a cameo with Spike Lee, cast Christopher Lee as the villain...
Christopher Reeve made me believe in Clark Kent.
In the comic books, you never understood how anyone could be fooled by just a pair of glasses. Especially in the earliest issues, Kent has such an athletic physique, nobody could buy him as Casper Milquetoast.
But Christopher Reeve showed how Kal-El did it all those years with his wonderful performance. His Clark moves awkwardly, always managing to be in the wrong position when going through doors or around corners, constantly adjusting his glasses, shuffling his feet timidly and muttering with his head bowed and eyes never quite able to meet whoever he is speaking to.
His Superman is confident and outgoing, hands on hips and looking everyone in the eye when he speaks clearly.
I have heard that some younger viewers today find the performance a little corny. If that's true, I think it's ashame that modern irony has robbed a generation of the appreciation of one of the finest and most endearing performances you could ever ask for.
ED WOOD: Great movie and easily Burton's best. This is one of the overlooked gems of the 90's. Not only did Landau deserve the Best Supporting Actor Oscar over Sam Jackson, I think Ed Wood deserved Best Picture over Pulp Fiction. Forrest Gump, of course, doesn't even count.
Washu,
"Tim Burton...There's a kind of soullessness, a coldness to all his work that I find detestable."
'Ed Wood'. Few films I've seen have more soul.
Lynn: Thanks for the info on the Smokin' E clothes. I will go buy something then.
H
Secret Identities -
Well, it was a bit of a stretch to buy the whole "glasses on, I'm Clark...glasses off, I'm SOOOOOPERman." even with the kryptonian glasses hyponizing people into thinking he's 98 pounds and geeky.
I thought that Hulk showing up wherever some vagrant with a mashed contrivance of "David Banner" would be a clue, even to that dimwitted Mr. McGee.
Anyone know a decent Captain America story arch that isn't patronizing, political or dopey? I'd love to read them.
Speaking of Krypto, he had one of his best stories in one of the 9/11 tribute issues (Volume 2, I think) put out by DC and other independent companies. Nice, simple short story. The dogs searching the rubble at WTC are still working. Some are bandaged, tongues hanging out, looking badly worn. In comes their super-hero, Krypto the superdog, with a giant bowl of water clenched in his teeth. He sets it down, gives his adoring fans a wink and flies off, the search-and-rescue dogs drinking thankfully from the bowl.
My favorite story in the 2 volume set was the simple one from Frank Miller. He manages to sum up EXACTLY how I feel with power and economy: "I'm sick of flags. I'm sick of God. I've seen the power of faith."
I don't know any better way to say it, Mr. Miller. Bravo.
Well, my concussion's healed and everything seems back to normal...
Um...there seems to be a libertarian thread going on that a few people are getting mighty peeved about. I decided to look into the heart of the word itself and checked out the dictionary again: "One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state." Hmmmmmm. Considering how NOBODY seems to like the state these days, isn't this a GOOD thing?
JON STOVER: Oh, yes...Incredible Hulk #140, "The Brute That Shouted Love at the Heart of the Atom". I LOVE that title. Hulk's shenanigans on a weird microworld...don't know much else about it. Is it available anywhere in the Webderland store, perchance?
It's Little Washu, by the way. No 'Washu'. Always Little Washu. L-I-T-T-L-E Washu. Leeeeetle Washu.
(Pssssst, hey, Harlan....I'm intrigued. Why did you decide to write for ol' Jade Jaws?)
CHRIS L: Was SLEEPY HOLLOW drop-dead gorgeous? I was too busy trying to smash in the television set to notice. Tim Burton to me is the equivalent of a cheese-grater sliced into my bare skin, and then shoved out into a shower of salt from the sky. There's a kind of soullessness, a coldness to all his work that I find detestable. Tim just doesn't seem to give a damn about narrative or remotely caring about the characters. For instance: the humans in his PLANET OF THE APES? I wanted them to die. So bad.
Mind you, I utterly concur on your point about computer graphics and such. There was a kind of organicness, a personality to stop-motion animation that's not easy to describe. They seemed to be more at one with both the actors, and the film. Computer graphics are too smooth, too fluid, too...bleh. CG hit rock bottom, I think, in the movie HOLLOW MAN when a woman's breast was 'digitally' fondled by an invisible hand. I'm really beginning to believe the Amish might have it right...
JOSEPH J. FINN: Sorry to break the news, but neither Baker OR Winston are on board HULK. The project is entirely ILM territory as far as I heard. Poopie.
BRIAN SIANO: Yep, those superheroes keep a tight rein on their secret identities for many decades, don't they? One reason I always preferred the Hulk over others...Banner's other self was secret for a period of time, but was eventually spilled. Now EVERYBODY knows Banner is the Hulk....which really sucks for Banner.
By the way, I may have misquoted in an earlier post when I said a phrase from PEARL HARBOR: "Looks like World War II just started." The actual words are apparently, "Looks like World War II just hit us." My memory is going to murder me very soon. Will someone correct me on PEARL HARBOR if I need correcting? Thanks.
One other little note: You know, I've always found it frustrating that we ALL know what Harlan looks like, but a lot of us don't have a clue what each other looks like? The miracle of cyberspace. Dagnabbit.
Little Washu
What ever happened to the Fantastic Four movie?
The Super Key to Fort Superman:
Jay & Joseph:
I think Grant Morrison summed it up nicely via the Psycho Pirate's words in Animal Man..."Oh, Superman. What have they done to you?" The relatively new group of creators on Supey seems much better than those who got into the rut of the whole Death/Resurrection/Death of Clark Kent/Trial of Superman/New Costume/Old Costume thingie, though. But I'm afraid I've turned into a "wait for the tpb" sort of guy when it comes to comic book buying.
I myself would treasure my hardcover *Superman from the 30s to the 70s* volume for the Superman/Orson Welles team-up alone. Well, that and Clark and Lois going to a Fleischer Superman cartoon and Clark devoting his time to making sure Lois doesn't find out his secret identity *from the cartoon.* Supes and Orson foiling a Martian invasion is a hoot, too. Not quite up to the 40s Captain Marvels for whimsical fantasy super-hero adventures, but good nonetheless.
50s and early 60s Superman, though...Man, was Mort Weisinger on crack? I like Superman with the head of a red ant as much as the next guy, but still...
Jon
Andrew~ Okay, there are continuity errors in movies and then there are movies that say 'fuck continuity'. Blatant rewriting of history falls into the latter category.
L.
Joseph~ Hand axes, florentine. He's also the only reason to see Phantom Menace. Want more!
L.
Joseph: Your draft looks good. You might want to watch Klesko though, he's getting shifted to right field, Nevin to first. They're making room for Sean Burroughs out of AAA ('course me helping you now probably screws me later ::grin::). I don't know what this'll mean for your draft, but I hope you'll be able to make some changes should the need arise.
Peg: Message recieved. 6:00 will be fine.
Lynn: Continuity errors, heck what about the blatant re-writing of historical events. Disney's the worst ("Pocahontas" anyone?) but it's gotten worse lately. I hate to be anal, but, you'd think they'd a least try to get it mostly right.
-Andrew
Libertarians are at least a better defender of civil liberties than any democrat. But I do wish they would see their idiocy in defending unfettered capitalism, but crowing about the abusive power of government. I mean, who actually runs the government?
Chomsky, incidentally, used to write the occassional piece for the Cato institute newsletter, before the anslaught of left journals. Of coarse, I'm sure he is no longer welcome in their offices.
Lynn,
Seven words: Ray Park vs. Johnny Depp with scythes.
Chris L~ re: Sleepy Hollow
Two words: Ray Park
L.
Dark City: Yes, this was a fine film. I can't quite gush about it the way Roger Ebert does but I enjoyed it a lot and I did love the look of the film.
Another recent film which I think looks as good as any movie I have ever seen is Sleepy Hollow. It doesn't have a whole lot else to recommend it, but that movie is drop-dead gorgeous.
Chris,
One more item before i shut up about the Hulk movie: apparently Lee refused to do the movie until the script was re-written to insert more character development in place of the "cheap action" that was in before. The guy doing the rewrites was James Schamus, who has worked together with Lee several times already.
It could all crash and burn, but the movie is showing a good deal of potential (especially now that I've seen Eric Bena in "Black Hawk Down" - I'm definitely seeing him as Banner now).
Regards,
Joseph
>WAS I NOT PERFECTLY CLEAR ABOUT MY OPINIONS OF THEE DOLTS? <
No, not when you talk about their article being a "good piece of work" and provide links to their website. You don't need to back-pedal again...we heard you the first time.
King Lurk
Chris,
Try "Dark City" sometime. That has the kind of "real" effects that seem to be right up your alley. That, and it's a hell of an interesting movie (and even if it bores you, you can stare at Jennifer Connely for an hour).
Regards,
Joseph
Siano, you've got issues.
King Lurk
That's good news regarding The Hulk, very good news and puts it back on my radar screen. Last I heard it discussed, The Hulk was going to be a CGI character. Now I feel better.
Where I tend to break sharply with many of my fellow comic book and/or movie fans, is that I think special effects are much WORSE today than they were 15-20 years ago.
And I'm not even talking about pining for the genius of Harryhausen because I know those days are over and that's OK. I think Star Wars: A New Hope looked a lot better than Phantom Menace. The opening shot of the ship in Star Wars is better than ANY of the ultra-slick computer effects in Phantom Menace.
I think one of the best looking FX movies ever is Star Trek 2. I believe the shot of the Enterprise fleeing the Genesis explosion was the first entirely CG shot (I'm sure I'll be proven wrong on this) and it looks wonderful in real-time, a little goofy in slow-mo but you weren't supposed to watch it in slo-mo.
Slicker graphics do not equate to better graphics.
Dragonslayer looked about a thousand times better than Dragonheart.
Conan the Barbarian is a gorgeous, gorgeous movie. It would have been much worse if they had used modern technology to stick in a slick looking serpent-monster-king for him to have a cool video game battle with. And you know that's how it would be made today.
I mentioned Jaws a few months back. Jaws derives its power and menace from the creativity the filmmakers had to employ to get around their technical limitations. The floating barrels - is this one of the best visualizations of terror on screen ever?
These are the movies I miss. There are great films being made today but virtually none of them are of the action/blockbuster variety. I think the days of genuinely great blockbuster films are long gone.
I guess I shall have to do some penance here. Until King Lurk so eloquently explained issues to me, I was _utterly unaware_ of the idiotic policy positions of the Libertarians. Why, I had _no idea in the world_ that they felt that corporations should police themselves! I was _completely ignorant_ of the fact that they actually think that the Invisible Hand would bring affairs to a steady state of prosperity! Why, without King Lurk's comment, I might have gone on thinking that the Libertarians were _not_ a bunch of droids laboring under the baleful influence of Ayn Rand and prone to magical thinking when it comes to economics.
I am so terribly grateful that King Lurk saw fit to educate me in these matters. Consider the sheer selflessness of the act. King Lurk might have read my comment that my politics were "left of center" and decided, well, he doesn't need to know about the Libertarians. He might've read my comment that voting for them was analogous to Hire-the-Handicapped policies, figured, "Okay, he's insulting the Libertarians, so maybe he knows what they're like," and gone on with his life. Why, he might have read my comparing the Libertarians to religious fanatics, and assumed that maybe I might hold most of their ideas in contempt.
But King Lurk did NOT do this. Out of the goodness of his heart, and his unmitigated desire to Educate the Masses, he took time out from his busy schedule of feeding orphans and administering polio vaccines to Aborigines to make sure I knew that the Libertarians are "crumbums." What can I say? Are there thanks enough in the Universe to express my gratitude to King Lurk for his gesture of kindness? Are there words adequate to describe how the scales have fallen from my eyes, and the world in all its infinitude has been revealed to me thanks to King Lurk's STATING THE FUCKIN' OBVIOUS TO SOMEONE WHO OBVIOUSLY _KNOWS_ HOW RIDICULOUS THE LIBERTARIANS ARE? ARE YOU SO HUMORLESS THAN EVEN MENTIONING THE LIBERTARIANS BRINGS FORTH SUCH STUNNING FUCKIN' ANALYSIS? DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT OTHER PEOPLE DON'T SEE THROUGH THESE BOZOS? WAS I NOT PERFECTLY CLEAR ABOUT MY OPINIONS OF THEE DOLTS? AND CAN YOU GIVE ME _ONE_ DECENT REASON WHY I SHOULD HAVE ANY MORE RESPECT FOR _YOU_?
_JEE-sus Christ_, where do these thuds COME from?
>, but I'd like to confess some affection for the Libertarians<
That's a confession, all right. Do some penance. These guys are crumbums who think corporations should police themselves. You've got weekends off and can still breathe the air because the Libertarians don't get enough votes.
King Lurk
Lynn,
Sounds fun *claps hands in glee* For the sake of simplicity, and anyone wanting to join us, howzabout we call it 11 AM at Dangerous Visions? We can skedaddle to lunch from there wherever our little hearts (or tongues or stomachs) desire. I'll call that AM to confirm just in case. I've been to DV once before about 5 years ago, but can get directions off the website.
I'll be ordering my "smokin' e" stuff when I get back home -the international shipping was cheaper than the expediting charges. 15 oz, eh? Well, I'll have to try to get by without those 2 crucial ounces...
Andrew - sent you email with appropriate details (time, directions, what the hell I look like) but will call today also. WRT the Thai thing - the hubby just doesn't care much for Thai food (of which he's tried several dishes).
Thanks to both of you for joining up with us!!! I'm really looking forward to these - I need some fun interspersed with all the family stuff and a few depressing aspects.
Cheers
Peg
Aha, but Jay is behind on his geekiness, as Wayne has no need to do all of the computer work himself. These days, he has Oracle, AKA Barbara Gordon, the former Batgirl, as the information maven of the DC universe.
(yeah, I know - I'll just slap a Flounder pin on me and crawl under a rock)
And by the way, my fellow comic readers should give the "Birds of Prey" series a try. Good writing by Chuck Dixon, and it's great to see Barbara Gordon with her own series.
Regards,
Joseph
Jay,
Are you implying that Mr Wayne has developed an Echelon type computer system and is probably violating civil liberties for his own psychotic ends?
I am shocked.
FAQ
:::WARNING:::ENTERING GEEK MODE:::WARNING:::WARNING:::ENTERING GEEK MODE:::
(his best Simpsons comic book geek voice) Ahem, well, Mister Siano, unlike you, I have not developed such a cynical view of the mainstream comics medium. For example: Batman has a quite complicated network of information sniffers throughout Gotham City and he would know, to the moment, when information regarding his secret identity was accessed. His computer is tied to every network in the city and protective of his information. To wit: the caves under Wayne Manner were elimnated from all state and Federal Survey Maps since 1947. The only hard copies left reside inside the Batcave. Wayne Enterprises, as well, puts out false signals, indicating that Batman has tried several times to access their databases. Of course, the technology required COULD have been purchased through LexCorp or STAR Labs or Microsoft. Of course, Batman could hunt down the reporter and explain how important his secret identity is, use his Amnesia Gas and that's all she wrote.
:)
Jon,
Krypto is back, but in a nice touch he's confined to the Fortress of Solitude, since it's a little hard to control a flying dog with super strength and heat vision.
By the way, if anyone wants a hoot, you should look the the "Superman in the '60s" and "Superman in the '70s" books. Some good stuff, but a lot of oddball things as well. Ties into a wonderful essay I read once about DC's attempt to be "hip" with the original "Angel and the Ape" series, kind of like your aging Uncle Fred trying to be "down with the hipsters" at a family party while the young'uns all shake their heads in bemusement.
Regards,
Joseph
For Spidey Lovers: http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/product/film_info/0,3699,2403520,00.html
Enjoy.
You've probably guessed that my politics are very left of center, but I'd like to confess some affection for the Libertarians. Their fealty to laissez-faire economics kind of puts them in the category of Religious Fanatics and Creationists. But they are fairly decent about civil liberties, and they pick up a bit more on technology issues than most other factions. So every election, I cast one vote for a Libertarian candidate: I regard it as my personal Hire-the-Handicapped quota.
Well, they're started running ads to counter those ridiculous Bush Administration ads saying that drug use supports terrorism. (And yeah I'm hoping y'all remember my line about whether my taxes aren't enough to pay for terrorism.) It's a nice piece of work, and an article about it can be found at http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0203/drugad.html.
Re the Spiderman movie. Look, it might be fun. It might not be. Dunno if I'd leap to "stinking pile of monkey vomit" conclusions right away. But then again, I'm just not as interested in superhero movies as much as I was when, say, _Superman_ came out. Hell, I wasn't even as enthusiastic about _Batman_ as Harlan was in his review: I thought it had nice production design, and Keaton was fine in the main role, but that's about it.
Still, there is a dynamic with superhero movies that works against them. There is something inherently ridiculous about a superhero; you can keep the suspension of disbelief going for only so long before you start raising a few questions, and some of them can be very, very funny. It's OK in a comic book, where you're sort of entetaining people who _can_ stay with the superhero concept without having the Real World intrude. But once you make the superhero "real" in a _movie_, it's hard to keep a straight face. The first movie might hold to the fantasy world. The second might do the trick as well. But by the third, you can't help but wonder why Superman deals with street crime instead of toxic waste spills, why Batman's remained a bachelor, or whether Spiderman gets the urge to eat flies. So... either you make the movies "topical" (like that last Chris Reeve Superman film), or you make them even _more_ removed from the real world (Joel Schumacher's Batman movies).
I'd always wanted to write a story where Millionaire Bruce Wayne consents to an interview, and the reporter's first question is why he decided to be Batman. "What do you mean?" Wayne asks. "I'm not Batman."
"Mr. Wayne, we've done a lot of research," says the reporter. "It's not like you're the least likely suspect. Who else in Gotham culd possibly afford personalized boats, cars, planes, and motorcycles?"
"That doesn't prove anything," says Wayne.
"No, it doesn't," says the reporter. "But it does make you the most likely suspect. Especially since, as owner of Wayne Industries, you'd be able to have these extremely specialized pieces of equipment built without any kind of paper trail.
"Then there's the matter of the Batcave. We consulted a set of surveying maps made in the 1930's under a Works Progress Act grant, and it turns out that the only caves anywhere near Gotham City are situated about seventy feet below Wayne Manor..."
and so on.
Jon,
I believe they're heading that way. Seems like a cycle...overcrowd the hero with stupid supporting characters then kill them all off in some cosmic readjustment/convergance/elimination... then bring them back one-by-one over the next few years.
Krypto I believe IS back. Beppo? I can do without a supermonkey.
Blast it, that should have been Rick Baker, not Stan Winston, in my post about the Hulk.
Chris,
You might have missed this at the time we were discussing it, but the Hulk is not going to be CGI, but will instead be an effect done by Stan Winston. Which makes me quite happy, even if Mr. Winston's fine work was surrounded by the weak story of last year's "Planet of the Apes."
As for Spidey, once again we disagree, as I've seen F4. Yech.
Regards,
Joseph
Which brings up a delightful thread, Continuity Errors on Film. My favorite jolt-me-up-out-of-my-seat continuity error was in Thunderheart (Val Kilmer), where the lead character is flying from DC to somewhere in the Dakotas. We get the ubiquitous airport shot of the character in transit, only the beautiful sunset scene of airport sports the glorious arches of *LAX* center screen! Minor details like that can just utterly ruin a film.
Don't even get me started on Armageddon and the respective interior and exterior shots of the Shuttle.
L.
For those interested (especially, Rob)...The NY Times has been running something called "Watching Movies with..." and gets together with an actor/director/prodcuer and watching and discussing a particular movie that influenced or moved that person. The one that's currently being discussed is "The Shining" with Nicole Kidman. I personally think that it's a beautifully flawed movie (and not really a horror film), but the article is interesting and hits some salient points regarding the flick.
Here's the URL: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/22/movies/22WATC.html?pagewanted=1
Oh, and if you get a chance, check out some of the others that they've done. Pretty interesting stuff.
And just something that irks me and though I disagree with Chris L.'s sentiments regarding Spider-Man, I think he has hit on something about missing movies. While watching the second season of the Sopranos on DVD, I decided I'd listen to the audio commentary by the director (can't remember his name...something Patterson, maybe?) for the last episode, "Funhouse". I ignored his inane comments regarding the "dynamics" of the characters at the beginning of the episode ("...see? Just an ordinary housewife. A nice ordinary suburban housewife..."--I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the gist), but literally threw up my hands in disgust at the following comment--again, paraphrasing, but dead on for the most part: "We were shooting this in October and there was frost on the ground so the crew had to fix it(?) so that the frost wouldn't be seen, but that was just a detail that I didn't concern myself with. I try not to get too involved with the details."
And why am I so disgusted with that comment, other than the fact that I do disagree with his idea that as a director he leaves it up to others to work out the details? It's because the fucking storyline takes place in fucking May or June as the daughter of Tony Soprano is graduating in two days and it makes no fucking sense for there to be ANY FUCKING FROST ON THE GODDAMN GROUND! Details? Yeah, that's a pretty pertinent detail. Heaven forbid we have any continuity and logic in the story.
So, yeah, I miss the movies, too, but only those movies where morons can't be bothered with details such as getting the seasons right on film.
Teleporters:
Jay -- was that child Grant Morrison? He did do something like that to Supey, but it was the Electric Blue Nazi Superman, so I'm not sure that it counts...
Frankly, I want Beppo, Comet, Streaky, Krypto, and everyone else in the Legion of Super-pets back. Maybe they could save the world in DK2#3. Miller writing Krypto's thought balloons...now that would be groovy. Kee-rist. How many bums could a super-powered dog sniff in one day? The mind boggles.
Time to go put a little domino mask on the cat so no one recognizes him when we go crime-fighting together...
Jon
David,
Regarding "Sturgeon’s Law" that "ninety percent of everything is crud," James Gunn wrote that Sturgeon first stated it at the 1953 World Science Fiction Convention in Philadelphia. (See The New York Review of Science Fiction no. 85, 9/95, p. 20.) Over time, what Sturgeon called a "revelation," and Damon Knight (among others, I think) referred to as a "rule" (see In Search Of Wonder), has become known as a "law," and "crud" is often replaced by "crap." Sturgeon himself used “crap” when talking briefly about "Sturgeon’s Law" in a 1972 interview with David G. Hartwell. (See NYRSF no. 8, 4/89, p. 12.) Sturgeon’s Law may ultimately prove to be that "Ninety percent of Sturgeon quotes are misquotes."
What follows is sincere –
King Lurk: I apologize to you for not sufficiently highlighting the difference between our respective definitions of "bad guys". I feel those who view CP as well as those who produce it are "bad guys" – a difference of degree, not nature – thus my statements.
I am grateful for your position regarding your defined "bad guys", and apologize for causing offense in this area.
Chapter 3, Verse 4, The Book of Frank: Mmm – humble pie tastes good.
The Washu Who Cried 'Hulk' at the Heart of the Webderland:
Washu: Nice post. Have you read Ellison's comic book work on the Hulk?
Comics to film&TV: Well, about the only adaptation of superhero stuff I've liked in the last five years is *Smallville.* Of course, it's filmed in Canada, but so is everything else, despite Jesse Ventura's best efforts....but I tend to forget that *From Hell* and *Ghost World* are comic book adaptations, and they're pretty darn good.
Cheers,
Jon
Todd,
Hulk didn't smash me either but I ain't assuming he's a card carrying member of the Nation of Islam.
FAQ
We already had this discussion a few months ago but the Spider-Man movie looks like a steaming pile of pig feces if the trailer is any indication. Effects-wise, it looks like some pathetic combination of a cartoon and Atari video game and looks somewhat less sophisticated than The Last Starfighter. Because Sam Raimi is in charge, I retain some hope - maybe the trailer is just an April Fool's joke or something - but it looks like just about the worst special FX produced in a couple decades. It even looks worse than the Roger Corman _Fantastic Four_ movie.
As for Hulk, it also does nothing to interest me. The Hulk is going to be a CGI character. Yawn. Yawn. Yawn.
I miss movies. I hate these video games they pass off as movies today.
Smash & Smashability? Lynn, you're a peach.
Well, my draft went through on my Yahoo baseball team. Don't think I did too bad, though I'll have to trade up on my hitters. Got some good picks on pitching, though. Take a look:
C Hall, Toby (C-TB)
1B Klesko, Ryan (1B-SD)
2B Durham, Ray (2B-CWS)
3B Ramirez, Aramis (3B-Pit)
SS Larkin, Barry (SS-Cin)
OF Beltran, Carlos (CF-KC)
OF Hidalgo, Richard (CF, RF, LF-Hou)
OF Valentin, Jose (3B, SS, CF-CWS)
Util Alfonzo, Edgardo (2B-NYM)
Bench Furcal, Rafael (SS-Atl)
Bench Lawton, Matt (RF-Cle)
Bench Lofton, Kenny (CF-CWS)
Bench Olerud, John (1B-Sea)
Schilling, Curt (SP-Ari)
Martinez, Pedro (SP-Bos)
Foulke, Keith (RP-CWS)
Kim, Byung-Hyun (RP-Ari)
Lieber, Jon (SP-ChC)
Buehrle, Mark (SP-CWS)
Escobar, Kelvim (RP, SP-Tor)
Quevedo, Ruben (SP-Mil)
*Ang Lee* is doing *The Hulk*?
Morphing Banner, Smashing Hulk?
Smash & Smashability?
The Green Storm?
Curiouser & curiouser,
L.
Washu,
On a cold and dreary snowy day in Chicago, you made me laugh. Have a chocolate.
And I think we're forgetting who's directing the freaking Hulk movie: Ang Lee. C'mon, has he ever made a crummy movie? I mean, you don't have to worship at his feet, but the guy has a resume of movies that is quite admirable (and in terms of subject matter, fascinatingly varied).
Regards,
Joseph
Whew. Hulk did not smash Todd. He must be a Republican.
-TODD
Little Washu, if you think for one minute that ANY actor, regardless of stagecraft training, ensemble experience, or access to Bulgarian steroids is going to be able to essay a performance that even approaches the method sensitivity and over-arching thespic skill of Mr. Lou Ferrigno, well, I'm sorry you weren't raised right.
KL
Hi, guys. Um…I’m not sure if any of you will swallow this, but…the door to my room was suddenly smashed down with a horrific crash. Dust flew everywhere in a massive cloud, and all I could make out was flash of green skin before blackness engulfed me…I woke up hours later with one hell of a concussion and the following written on the ’Submit a Message’ screen…make of it what you will…I’m a little creeped out at the moment.
_________________________________________________________________
HULK SMASH PUNY WEBDERLANDERS!!!!!!! ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!!
Hulk don’t read too much of Ellison. Actually, Hulk don’t read at all. Puny Banner does all of reading. But Hulk don’t like stinking Ellison fans who think Hulk deserve no major motion picture!
Why does puny King Lurk think Hulk don’t need no big movie? Hulk thinks Lurk is using ages-old argument. Hulk thinks not ALL comic book movies are stinky…Hulk thought SUPERMAN was okay movie…except for stupid OTIS!!!! Hulk will smash Ned Beatty first chance he gets! Hulk liked Ned Beatty in DELIVERANCE, though…Hulk thinks he made good portrayal of sad, weak city man completely out of his element in the terrible, amoral wildern- ANYWAY! Hulk says that most comic book movies suck because stinking filmmakers never read stinking comic books, so stupid filmmakers have no sticking idea what they’re doing…SO THERE! COMIC BOOKS NO ROT STINKING BRAINS!!!! Except Image Comics, which Hulk thinks is adolescent crap that has no- ANYWAY!
Hulk does agree about more puny original movies not based on any stinking previous source, though.
Hulk knows all about stinking creatively bankrupt Hollywood. Hollywood making FAT ALBERT movie soon. FAT ALBERT, for love of god! Hulk will SMASH puny Hollywood executives in stupid suits!!!
Hulk smashes a lot.
But Hulk don’t like Jay Smith either for wanting Spider-Man movie over Hulk movie! Spider-Man is quick, cunning, and agile, while Hulk is big…uh…big…and…uh…big?
AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! Hulk smash Little Washu! Hulk smash King Lurk! Hulk smash Jay Smith! Hulk smash Heather! Hulk smash Melissa! Hulk smash Scott! Hulk smash Brian Siano! Hulk smash Cindy! Hulk smash Lynn! Hulk smash rich! Hulk smash P.A. Berman! Hulk smash Xanadu! Hulk smash Joseph! Hulk smash Rob! Hulk smash David Loftus! Hulk smash Webmaster Wyatt! Hulk smash Harlan E-
Oh, wait. Ellison scares Hulk. Never mind.
Hulk hopes that he has successfully infected puny Ellison board with his stupid Hulk-talk. Hulk will now go to Ellison’s home and smash his puny car in act of pathetic cowardice. Bye-bye.
Incredible C. Hulk, esq.
Spider-Man, I am looking forward to Raimi's Spider-Man. From what I've seen, it looks to be visually stunning at the very least. It reads like Brian Michael Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man - one of my favorite takes on a super-hero origin. If the writing is comparable to that series, it should be wonderful.
The Hulk? Bah. Jay SMASH.
My most anticipated film-from-comics? The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Oh yes. It will be mine.
Most interestng question asked by a child at a comics convention:
"Why is it that Superman can't be hurt by lasers or bullets, but he can be teleported by some ray? Wouldn't it be easy to kill him just by turning the ray off half way through? Wouldn't bad guys just make a gun using a teleporter that doesn't put him back together somehwere else?"
- Asked by a 9 year old standing in front of Gerard Christopher, TV's "Superboy" (Yeah, it was a big event when Gerry's headlining, boy...)
David - In their Theodore Sturgeon FAQ, Eric Weeks and Bill Seabrook cite the March 1958 issue of Venture Science Fiction; It's interesting to note that Sturgeon himself referred to it as "Sturgeon's Revelation", with Sturgeon's Law being "Nothing is ever absolutely so." Head over to http://glinda.lrsm.upenn.edu/~weeks/misc/faq.html
for the full quote.
Well the only movie I'm looking forward to is "I,Robot" screenplay by Harlan and until it gets made nothing on the silver screen excites me. Well maybe "The Time Machine" will if it stays true to the original book.
The Winter Olympics are over but sincere CONGRADULATIONS to all of Canada on your Hockey win. I was lucky enough to visit Canada (Trail B.C.) about five years ago and enjoyed the trip! I am glad that after 50 years Canada won the Gold!
Folks:
Can anyone give me an authoritative source and reasonably accurate original quotation for Sturgeon's Law...?
Send me a kiss by wiiiiire!
Baby my heart's on Fiiiire!
Thanks, now I'm gonna have that stuck in my head all night...
::sigh::
L.
A day or so after reading the recent posts about the proper order of the lyrics in Ragtime Gal-- I was in another room and heard my 14 year old knocking around in his room-- he was singing, "Hello my baby hello my honey hello my ragtime gaaaaal" I opened the door and said, " Where'd you learn that song?" He shrugged. I pressed, " No, really-- where'd you hear that song?" He said he heard it on a cartoon.. then sang it again adding the rest.
Another generation.
:)
Cindy
Heather~ From the cafepress.com site:
+++
Ordering by check or money order:
To place an order using a personal check or money order, purchase your products online as if paying by credit card. When prompted to enter your credit card number, simply check the box marked "Pay by Check or Money Order" and click continue. Once you complete your order, you will be given an Order Number and shown a final receipt page. Print and mail this page with your payment to:
CafePress.com - Orders
1933 Davis Street, Suite 204
San Leandro, CA 94577
Please write your Order Number on your check/money order. If you are unable to print your receipt, please include a note with your check clearly stating your Order Number.
+++
So it's not just cc biased.
L.
Justin:
I realize you're gone but at some point you will read this.
Luck to you, man! And find yasself a woman or two, will ya? Yer fogging up the place with yer heavy breathin. *grin*
Luck in your studies.
H
Jay: Touche!
Mastah Salt, you have your moments, but Mr. Smith is right. I dunno from whenst you came but your comments about people posting stories on this site ticked me off; also your insinuations about where and what Harlan needs to be doing.
Harlan is where he needs to be right now. And I don't want people on this board feeling bad about him not being here. We've been though this shit before. I LIKE the fact that Ellison is off banging on his keyboard.
It's about goddamn time. The nits and wits in this world have clearly wasted a lot of his time. (The lawsuit and the Enemies of Ellison come first to mind--at least there's a potential positive outcome for the lawsuit but still..)
Shut yer yap, come to the table with your nose clean and like Jay said -- as I can see from some of your more recent posts, you ARE capable of it -- contribute to the ongoing conversations.
And like David said, and I paraphrase, this place is for good discussions (and we DO have some good ones) so get in here, Mastah Salt.
Quit fucking around.
Heather
>Is anyone here excited to tears about the upcoming HULK movie?<
To be honest, Little Washu, I sure ain't. I like the comic books just fine as they are, unsullied by script sessions and star cameos. Why do we always need to have a movie made of our literary fantasies? The best films are written as films, not just lifted from existing literature (if Hulk could be called such). Star Wars as a movie series, yes, it works. Batman, no. They all sucked.
I've yet to see a super-hero movie I really liked, and I think I'm actually going to do the ultimate sacrifice and PASS on the Spider-Man movie. Kirsten Dunst in a moist t-shirt notwithstanding, I just don't need green-screen effects and Willem Dafoe to make Spider-Man any better for me than it already is.
Here's to reading, just plain reading, and screw the idea-bereft Hollywood producers who think they can stick a famous face into tights and get fanboys to come running. Even though it's true, they can get most of us...screw 'em anyway.
King Lurk
Is anyone here excited to tears about the upcoming HULK movie?
From Ang Lee on board as director...from Eric Bana starring as Bruce Banner...from Sam Elliot as General 'Thunderbolt' Ross, and the lovely Jennifer Connelly as Betty Ross...from our very first glimpse of the awe-inspiring engine of rage and power, the Green Goliath...I really do believe we're in for a spectacular motion picture.
I have no cynicism attached to this project at all. So far, the movie is shaping up to be the ultimate godsend to both comic book fans and the general public alike.
Say whatever you wish about Lee's CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON. We can all be given thousands of lectures by masters of martial arts all over the world that FLYING THROUGH THE AIR IS ABSOLUTELY, INDISPUTABLY IMPOSSIBLE...but there was a streak of pure fantasy within the film that people seemed to genreally ignore. It's a fairy tale, plain and simple, and a beautiful one at that. I cannot begin to imagine how Ang Lee will give rebirth to an ages-old superhero like THE HULK...I just cannot...
Throughout all of Lee's films, there has been an indescribable, mystic feel to them, despite their characters and settings, from Yin shi nan nu to the Ice Storm to Sense and Sensibility. What will he do with the guy in the purple tights?
Eric Bana? He rules. I saw CHOPPER when it was first released to video. Downright fantastic actor...watch how he mercilessly slices open a man's throat and approaches his dying victim immediately afterwards, begging forgiveness with eyes as big as Bambi's. What he'll bring to Bruce Banner...is anyone's guess.
Stan Lee hismelf confessed he created THE HULK by combining FRANKENSTEIN and DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE into one new beast. Heaven knows where Ang Lee will take it.
'Nuff said.
Little Washu
Sorry... King Lurk:
I still agree with you on this child porn issue. I reread Xanadu's compilation of your posts and though I understand where she is coming from -- bottom line..
I still agree with you. If my brother got caught in this web, I'd want to have some kind of recourse..as you mentioned.
Nuf said from me. This has been a good exchange of opinions, IMV. Thank you Webderlanders. Where have you been all my life?
H
Heather: Concerning clinical depression. If it's a physical thing, then it can be hereditary. I remember reading about that, and then my dad talked to me about it, and recommended a couple of books to me when he told me he was taking prozac. The books are MOOD SWINGS and PROZAC by Dr. Ronald Fieve. I recognized myself in many of the cases he sited. He was very cautious about the medications he wrote about, warning the reader that Prozac in particular had not been in use long enough for there to be a study of long-term effects. He comes across as that rarest of commidities, a sober, responsible physician.
It's probably no coincidence that both Ernest Hemingway and his granddaughter Margeau both committed suicide. Depression can run in families.
Chuck
Scott & Melissa: Ah, yes. Spousal abuse. The family that cuffs together stays together. Seriously, I hope the smack wasn't too hard. I'm saving the Illudium Pyew-36 for bigger game. Like John Ashcroft.
The webderlanders from the Great White North might snicker at this, but it is FUCKING COLD here in the great rectangular state. What's so remarkable about that? Two days ago, it was 72 degrees. Shirtsleeve weather, even in the evening. Damn, but Ma Nature loves to bitch-slap us mile-highers. I can't wait for spring. All four seasons roaring through here in a given twenty-four hour period. Everything but big rocks falling out of the sky.
Recently, I rented a books-on-tape collection of Unca Harlan's short stories. I thought I'd hear how he read his own stuff. I thought the readings of GRAIL and I HAVE NO MOUTH downright masterful. I really enjoyed A BOY AND HIS DOG. He makes a very interesting choice for Blood's voice: Ronald Coleman. Quicker, more energetic, which would make sense for a dog. It emphasizes the idea that the only really civilized person in the story is Blood. In the end,some of it seems to rub off on Vic. It was a Dove Audio recording, and I didn't see it on the HERC. I'd love to own this collection, though. Harlan's a good reader.
Chuck
DTS: Re: "Why they Kill"
I plan to. I found a few of Rhodes books here at this library and will check and see what's at the bookstore of his stuff. The theories expounded sound interesting. (Hey, this guy is Ellison's age. Relatively.) Oh, and I found the "New York Times" magazine here at the library on Friday and read the Nathan Lane piece.
A question: IS he depressed or merely the child of a parent who WAS? Sounds like he had a pretty whacked out time of it, as a kid.
I can dig that. I dunno EXACTLY what my mum was/is (she's still around) but she definitely did a few numbers on me--no biggie, nothing compared to some of YOU guys, I'm sure; but it gets you thinking.. about why you do the things you do.. based on what happened to you as a little shaver.
Rob, I went to see "John Q" on Saturday. (oh, and "In the Bedroom" as "John Q" got me pumped. Denzel Washington. Haven't seen him in YEARS. Very good.)
Could you PLEASE give me information on books I could read on this HMO issue. I realize it's an "in the states" thing. I am completely dumb on all this. I don't even use the healthcare I have up here. Have a card from Ontario, never used it. (I'm lucky. I realize.)
I just don't understand WHY it's so fucked up in the states. You guys have more BODIES than we do. Why wouldn't there be more money in the kitty for healthcare?
Heather, learning ABCs, here. I know nothing of this. I'm a lucky duck, having never been to the doctor since I had a physical for university. Nobody's making any money on me..
YET.
Lynn:
Re: Stuffies here..http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
Way to go. I don't have access to buying this stuff as I don't have a credit card but that's cool that you've got this stuff up. Cool! The design looks good too!
H
Peg,
Glad to see you made it one piece. You might want to reconsider that Thai thing. My first taste of Thai came this past October when we joined Harlan, Susan, Lynn and several other swell folks for dinner. While I wasn't hip to the tea or the soup, everything else was pretty terrific (the best dish was a shrimp and egg concoction that was to die for). The best part though, the food was not spicy. Thank god, because I was pretty nervous going in (I'm a real wuss when it comes to spicy food). Imagine my surprise when I found this place to be very mild.
I'm sure you're used to the hot stuff that my wife was expecting. Rest assured, this stuff shouldn't muss up your hubby's digestion. Should the opportunity arise, take it. We had a fabulous time, good food and even better company. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
See you tomorrow,
Andrew
P.S. If you lost my number, let me know and I'll make sure I get it to you again. -AR
To P.A. berman, re Seymour's therapy; I'm with you on this one. Apart from looking like a post-op transsexual, the therapist struck me as being a not-very-well-trained incompetent who just couldn't _understand_ people like Seymour-- and her sigh of exasperation as Seymour's mom took him home spoke volumes. (Actually, I got the sense that Seymour's even _attending_ therapy was something imposed on him, perhaps by his employer over that adarkie-loko incident.)
For those of you in SoCal, who don't have a clue what Peg is talking about, she's visiting us from beautiful balmy Scotland and on Saturday, March 2nd, she'll be back up here in LA, in the Valley. So far, I know you're getting together with Andrew in San Diego.
And I myself am open to anything for lunch next Saturday, Peg. We could hit Dangerous Visions and then get some lunch down in Studio City. There's this seafood place I've heard is excellent, called "Killer Shrimp."
Lemme know, you have the number.
L.
PS. The mugs come in 15oz & 11oz (I have one of the big ones and the quality from CafePress is quite impressive). I don't have any of their tees, so I can't vouch for quality there. Definitely gonna get me one when the baseball shirts come out.
Lynn,
Loved the smokin 'e. I'm debating on ordering something now, provided it will be delivered to the folks before we depart back across the pond. (personally I'm gaga for the 17 oz java cup and the long sleeve tee.)
Saturday lunch is set - feel free to post location and time, any/all webderlanders should be welcome! Withdraw on the request for Mexican, we're gettin' plenty already. (pass on the Thai, though, the hubby can't take it).
Has anyone heard from Jim Davis? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in a few weeks and I'm beginning to wonder.
Hey Jim! Ya out there?
L.
My copy of On The Road With Ellison arrived today. I just finished listening to it, incredible stuff, it reminded me greatly of the opportunities when I've been priviledged to see/hear Harlan in action. I've been keeping an eye on the appearances section in Webderland for possible chances to catch Harlan again. If you have never had that opportunity and Harlan is making an appearance close to you, run,do not walk, to get your ticket, it is an incredible experience.
Headed out early tomorrow morning for some vacation down south in Texas and Louisiana for some badly needed R and R. It's about 20 degrees and windy hear in Iowa today. I'm looking forward to the sunshine and fabulous food once I get to New Orleans. Play nice while I'm gone. Roger
A few short matters.
Bermanator: Take the week and get things untangled. Mel's closed the book for now; it can be reopened. Hopefully, I'll see ya right near the bottom of the league in Sept., as Lynn and I battle it out for the championship.
Lynn, don't sweat it. I can take a joke, honest. Looking forward to the revised version of your little tale.
Little Washu: Your name is yours, and your choice. Mel wants me to be able to look folks in the eye, (neat trick for the internet) and if there's anything to add, I think I do like it better this way.
Chuck: Thanks man. She did cuff me one, but even worse was hearing my youngest, in her most reproachful voice, saying...
"Daddy was bad again."
Yeah, I hear ya, Chuck, gigglin' yer ass off...:-D
Now, the other part of my sentence. I get to prepare dinner, and take care of the kids as she gets a couple of hours of sleep.
Have fun all, Scott
>Ya see, the joke is, "I got flamed at Ellison Webderland and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."<
Hey, if it actually says THAT, I'll order two. One for me, and one for Tom Pynchon.
--Eric
Hello, again.
Well, it appears the Webderland park is unofficially full:
P.A. Berman and Little Washu have asked to reserve the last two places. Anyone else who may be interested will have to wait until either of these two brave souls decide to opt out. If they decide not to play, Scotty or myself will let you know. Should you want to inquire, Scotty could put together a stand-by list.
Rob: On behalf of my man, thanks for telling us. If this works out, maybe he'll try one in the future, though he likes college basketball better than the NBA. He's rooted for Syracuse for years, though we've attended college here in Canada.
Well, enough for now.
Love to all, Melissa
Brian, George Gilder is a raving maniac. He reminds me of the late Allan Bloom; another idiot who used tenure to molest common sense.
Saw, Gosford Park: Best movie of the year, bar none. Altman sure is amazing at moving around so many charactors and still make them coherant. Amazing film.
Oh, btw, Scott:
Lately, I've been hurriedly rushing through posts with a cursory glance - missing some till later - and only caught your baseball inquiry now: Thanks. Baseball's ok, but I'm into basketball.
Turn to the court and you'll hear from me.
Susan and Harlan,
I received the book. Thanks to both of you.
Better late than never, I guess...
I met Chuck Jones a couple of years ago at a small "cocktail function" when he was invited to Duke to discuss animation. I spoke to him briefly; told him that I enjoyed his work and liked Ralph Phillips and shook his hand. I was good for a year after that.
We were told not to bring things for him to autograph, but someone brought their kid to the little get-together and, without prompting, Jones pulled out a postcard of Bugs Bunny and signed the thing and, I think, might have even scribbled a small drawing on it, and gave it to the little tyke. The little bastard had no idea what he had in his hand and the envious mutterings and grumblings from the assembled gathering prompted the mother to vacate the premises with the little guy in tow, screaming, "Keep back! It's his! Keep back!"
(I had a clear shot at the little fucker, too, but the wife wouldn't go along with it and threats of divorce were spoken when she saw the glint in my eye. I will say this: I am not fanatical about much. I like my books and my movies, but they don't rule my life. Cartoons, and ESPECIALLY those by Charles M. Jones, are another matter. I admire the man for what he created and I think that he and Michael Maltese are the genuine thing when we dish out compliments like "one of a kind", "talented", "genius", and any other superlatives that come to mind.)
Chuck Jones will be missed.
Little Washu:
Well, the social event is the 1st annual(?) (I'm also not sure if this hasn't been done here before) Webderland Park Rotisserie Baseball league.
There are two spots available; P.A. Berman has a reserved option on one, should she wish to play. You draft ball players into a team, and get points for both individual and team play.
I'm either going to make or buy a little award, nothing special, but something to note the winner. If you're interested, send either myself or Scotty an email.
Now, the name:
I've hated that nickname for a long time, especially where it originates. Scotty's father called him that as a means to ridicule Scotty when he wasn't abusing him, and my husband took it to be a badge of honour, out of stubbornness and resistance to his parents. Trust me, these two were rotten folks.
To me, it always sounded hurtful, and I told him and his friends it would never be used in our house, period. The user would leave immediately, including Scotty, and I did enforce it.
For a while, I didn't pay too much attention to his postings at the site, until I saw the postings about privacy. Sorry if it offends some, but I told him to put a stop to it here too. I feel that using his own name is more respectful to those who come here; on the whole quite a decent bunch. More importantly, it's more respectful to himself.
Benjamin, your name is your choice. If Little Washu is what you want to call yourself, do so. I just didn't like the demeaning quality Scotty's moniker took on. My man is far better than that.
Love to all, Melissa
There seems to be a big social event for Webderland going on here that I'm completely clueless of, talk of 'two seats' and all. Please, somebody tell me what I'm missing, QUICK!
LYNNE: 'I got flamed at Ellison Webderland and all I got was this lousy t-shirt'?! For crying out loud, why didn't I see that before at Smokin' E? Remind me to stop in sometime...I've already received my battle scars from the HE himself.
SCOTT: Out of curiosity, why did you decide to drop the 'Bag of Meat' pseudonym? I ask that question mainly because I've taken the opposite route somewhat.
Not that my REAL identity is exactly a secret.(coughBenjaminAAWinfieldcough)I seized the 'Little Washu' title because I genuinely admire the character. Yes, she's a CARTOON, and I could have gone for something quote, unquote 'classier'...Captain Ahab, Genji, Gandhi, Number 6, Gregor Samsa, Jerry Springer...but I wanted to go down the less predictable route and be a bit more mischevious.
And to those who may think I'm a fickle, adolescent dope and change the title back to whatever came before or to soemthing completely utterly different...
I'm not changing the name. Period.
Feel better? Goooooooooooooooooooood.........
Little Washu
Brian: Your feelings about Seymour echoed mine. Can you see why I found the ending depressing and hopelessness-inducing? Also, what is your interpretation of the scene of Seymour with his therapist? Todd and I diverged sharply on that one: I felt his therapy was going nowhere and therapist even thought he was a loser, while Todd saw the therapy as a real attempt by Seymour to improve his life.
Bermanator
P.A. Berman:
Well, there are two spots left, but I don't see any pressure. I think they won't go too fast: you'll probably have some time. Even better; if you like, I'll reserve a place, and give you the time to think about it. There's still over a month before the draft, and Scotty wanted to give folks the lead time so they can take care of life's needs first.
Lynn: Yes, Scotty's seen them, and started the drool. I'm just clearing up a glaze order before the card is maxed out, and then you'll most likely hear from us.
Btw, are there children's sizes?
And, the jibe about Scotty making errors? Sweetie, I married the man. Enough said.
Chuck, he gets his slap at four. Just open your window and turn your head northwards.
Well, enough for me, for now.
Love to all, Melissa
Not much to say today, but here goes.
Rented _Ghost World_ last night, and it's more than a little unnerving to realize that the one character closest to me was Steve Buscemi's. When the Thora Birch character's listening to the record she's bought off of Buscemi, I hear myself saying, "Hm, 'Devil got my Woman' by Skip James. Good choice.'"
On another front, there are two really fun pieces in the _New York Times_. The first is a piece by Frank Rich about David Brock-- the conservative journalist who'd made a notorious career out of trashing Anita Hill. He's done a new book about his history among the right-wingers, revealing some truly astounding bits of gossip. Reading it (and yeah, I will read his book) gives me a mixture of thrill and revulsion. On the one hand, it's fun to read about the number of morals-spouting conservatives who are _seriously_ closeted. But on the other, the sordid appeal isn't very different from the stuff Brock used to sling at liberals-- and I know to my core that the people who'll thrill to Brock's account are the same people who denounced Ken Starr's report as pornography.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/24/magazine/24BROCK.html?pagewanted=print
The second is a profile of Rosalind Wiseman, who works with teenage girls-- and whose work indicates how Godawful mean they can be. Reading it actually made me think, thank GOD I couldn't get a date in high school. Saved me a LOT of grief.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/24/magazine/24GIRLS.html?pagewanted=print
Rick: You officially have my permission to reprint the Ugly Baby Haikus.
Melissa/Scott: When do you need to know if I'm in this rotisserie thing? This week is rather hideous for me, schedule-wise, but I will try to figure it out and let you know ASAP. Lord knows I'd hate to be left out. Also, my dad is the Baseball God, so he could help me.
Bermanator
Rick -
The version posted here (re: Ugly Baby) was a revision of the one I sent you. I changed it after Lynn finished with it.
- Jay
Scotty~ The 'errors' rag is just me warm up my smack talk for the season. All in good fun, 'kay?
L.
PS. Did you guys even take a gander at the Smokin' E stuff? (http://www.cafepress.com/webderland) Ya see, the joke is, "I got flamed at Ellison Webderland and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." Does it suck? Is it too expensive? Something, anything! Gimme some feedback! Or are you all waiting for the baseball jersey coming out in March?)
PPS. Rick, Please feel free to reprint the Ugly Baby Story. Title: Empties. There's a rewrite in the works (yeah - I know, I don't *do* rewrites -- shyeah...)
Jay,
Re: Warners' Three Bears.
Some of the funniest shit those guys came up with. I was surprised they didn't get an injunction for child abuse.
And they didn't stop there.
One you may remember (and there were 2 versions) opens with Bugs a floatin' on the high seas in a barrel singing in his usual off-key rendition of 'Someone's Rockin' My Dream Boat'. He winds up on a Bali-like island where a female gorilla mistakes him for a baby ape and, wanting for a child, readily adopts him. Her husband loves the news, goes to the basket, pulls the blanket back and leaps back at the "horrific" sight of this "creature". What does he do? Leaves for a moment and returns with a club to kill it (even though he still thinks it's a baby). (Natch the mother won't put up with it and this is what Bugs takes advantage of).
Oh, yeah: in the alternate version a drunken stork confuses Bugs for a baby ape and whacks him in the head with a club to take him over (even though he seems to understand this is a "baby" he's knocking out). At the end he's grasped the mistake and delivers the "correct" ape.
Another good "dysfunctional" youth bit of theirs was Little Red Riding Hood - in their version a homely, really loud, obnoxious Bobby Soxer. Even the Big Bad Wolf wanted nothing to do with her (in fact he kicks her out of the house: "Yeah, yeah, yeah - big eyes! Big eyes! Big eyes!", as he shoves her out the door).
Hello, all.
P.A. Berman:
I found a site that gives a quick overview of how a rotisserie league works;
help.yahoo.com/help/us/baseball/brules/brules-03.html
It doesn't sound that tough, and I'm sure any question you have could be answered by Scotty (he's explaining it to me), Joseph (he's tutoring Lynn on the finer points of rotisserie drafting), Chris (he does a lot of those) Andrew, or anyone else.
Scotty's already set his draft rankings (the order, by position, he wants to draft to get the best team), but is holding off ranking the individual players by position until near the end of spring training, when he knows who's hurt. I've talked to him on the phone, and he said if you do three positions a night, you can get it done in about two or three hours total time, spread out over three or four days. He doesn't think it's that big a deal.
Well, long story short, read the explanation, and ask questions. If you think it's too much of a pain to be bothered, just say no.
The draft is automatic, so you don't need to be present; you just need to set your order for draft, and your individual players by position. Scotty set it up to be right before the season opens, to give the participants tons of lead time.
Love to all, Melissa
Apropos of Hockey:
Joseph et al. -- No, it wasn't really a 5-2 game. In the unlikely event that I believed that there were gods looking after the book-keeping on such things, I'd think of the final score as simply being evening-up for Game Two of the 1996 World Cup of Hockey, which the US won 5-2 after trailing 2-1 into the final minutes of play. That series precipitated much of the Canadian hand-wringing over the status of hockey in Canada, hand-wringing that was increased by the Nagano result.
One of the positive results here, though hypocritical, appears to be the collective 'forgiving' of the 1998 Canadian team by assorted media pundits, as the rash of injuries suffered by that team is finally brought into discussion. Ain't history grand?
My favourite apologia for Canada hockey comes from a friend who maintains that all American players from Northern U.S. states are honorary Canadians (for example, Leclair) and should be counted as such when teams are selected. I believe he also considers Stephen King and John Irving to be honary Canadians (well, Irving is, four months out of the year).
At least I went on record to friends, after the 1-1-1 Canadian result in the preliminary, that the team reminded me of the 1984 Canada Cup team, which went through the same mediocre record in the preliminaries and the same collective criticism before winning in the end.
And, as a coda, I did find something moving about Martin Brodeur commemorating his father's Olympic experience from 1956 with his throat guard and with the best play I've ever seen from Brodeur.
Yep, I'm getting sentimental. Here's hoping the NHL allows its players to go to Italy in four years.
Jon
On the subject of "politically incorrect" Warner cartoons - you have to hold the Three Bears shorts as the perfect portrait of what we now call an abusive, dysfunctional family. The one I saw during Cartoon Network's Chuck Jones tribute was the one where they are out of honey and try to get it from the bee hive outside the house... I think Poppa Bear needs Xanax.
:) Jay
I wouldn't expect "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" on DVD any time soon.
Putting aside for a moment that we live in the era of political correctness - an age in which "Fantasia" has been sanitized and Tom and Jerry excised of offensive bits and colorized (or de-colorized, depending on how you look at it) - Warners is going to steer clear of this particular cartoon for the mere fact that they DID release it on video, back in the early nineties, and was so badly pressured by at least one Japanese group that:
+ the tape it was on was recalled, as well as five tape boxed sets containing the tape in question
+ the laser disc box set "The Golden Age of Looney Tunes, Vol. 1" was remastered for its second pressing to replace BBNTN with "Racketeer Rabbit", which appears again on the later Vol. 3 box.
Note too that when WB released the video compilation of the wartime cartoons, BBNTN was ommitted there as well, which boggled my mind then and still does (because if you're going to collect it, THAT would seem to be the place...)
It can still be found. In the information age, ANYTHING can be found. All you need is the right pick-axe and a reduced expectation of quality presentation. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for WB to pony up the crisp digital transfer.
Hey,
The mouse on my computer suddenly stopped working; hence, no replies this weekend. I seem to have replaced very single component on my computer in the last year...
Scott: I'd like to play ball with you guys, but I am ashamed to admit I really have no idea what such a thing would entail. How could I not know what a "rotisserie league" is? Somehow such information has eluded me my entire life, until now. Do I have do to a lot of research on the players, etc.? How much time will this take out of my life?
David/Xanadu: I think I overstated myself by declaring that being molested as a child "ruins" one's life. However, just because someone is OK, has coped and is having a normal life does not mean he or she was not devastated. Recovery is possible; getting through unscathed, however, is not.
Bermanator
De-lurking to say hello and inform everyone that while I am still alive and checking the boards from time to time, if I want to maintain a respectable GPA I'll need to buckle down and focus more on my courses than I have been. You guys suck me into interesting conversations too frequently, requiring that I devote study time to these matters, and I just can't have that. I'm in college, and there's no room for intelligent discussion in college life, damn you. That is to say: further posts outta me for the rest of the semester may be few and far between, but I'll still pop in as often as I can and say hello. I may also pop round to solicit information from you I need for assignments, information that I'm either too lazy or dimwitted to look up on my own. You understand.
Harlan: If you don't mind, and time permits, please let me know if you get around to phoning Dr. Soren.
You cats take 'er easy now. I'll be around.
J
Up very late, glazing. I will pay dearly for this tomorrow morning, getting up with the little ones.
Chuck: Scotty blew it; I'll leave a note, so he sees this when he gets up. He's a good man, really; he just doesn't pay attention too well at times.
Save the Illudium, it's more for real pests, like Jehovah's Witnesses or telephone soliciters. I'll just give him a smack in the head. That'll clear the problem up for a little while.
Well, I'll see you all later. Do enjoy yourselves.
Love to all, Melissa
Xanadu wrote
- Sunday, February 24 2002 15:12:4
Rick - I believe Webderlander Cindy bought the ugly little thing, and thus could provide any visual material we need - a direct link to the ebay site should also work (though that may not last indefinitely) - but actually copying it is probably a copyright no-no. If all else fails - someone should probably try to purchase rights to the photo from ebay - (he says, willing to volunteer)
Yes--y'all just lt me know what you need. I can take pictures if you like. She's a regular muse! I'm planning on putting the little ghoul in a short film I'm doing.
Cindy
I had a story, too, and I grant permission to reprint it in any and all forms freely without any further consideration to me.
Though if I might re-title it "Little Sister".
Thanks
I, too will miss ol' Chuck (Amuck) Jones. That crew at WB was a gang of geniuses. I especially enjoy watching the home movies of Jones, Avery, Clampett et al, acting out scenes they were going to do for a cartoon. Jones had a style that was unmistakable.
Especially the way his characters would react to something particularly foolish or ridiculous that another character did -- that heavy-lidded, sidelong glance at the audience that said, "I can't believe I have to share the same planet with this guy".
Oh yes, and lest I forget reading Scott's mistaken post about Unca Harlan being on Conspiracy Zone tonight, which I read about an hour after the show was over. And then:
"Sorry, error. The show with Ellison airs March 10th. My bad."
Pant, pant, pant. You have made me very angry. Very angry indeed. Mark my words, puny Earthling, there will be an Earth-shattering KABOOM for this. Just as soon as I find my Illudium Pyew-36 Modulator!
Damn that waskally wabbit.
Chuck (not, alas, Jones)
Oy... Satire is quite a prickly business. But just to soothe Granmassah's obviously blistered epidermis, I want to point out that no one, certainly not me, is trying to steal his identity. After taking a personal hit from him last week, I thought a clear bit of sarcasm would get his attention and, eek, he thought it was an impersonation. So that whole thing about momma taking home crack junkies...that was me, Masta. That bit about sittin in yo mamma's basement...that was me, too.
In sum, I woke up, got outta bed, dragged a comb across my head...logged on and you pissed me the fuck off. I reacted by pardoying your little Ebonic dialect and portrayed you as you come across to me on the board.
I figured your series of anonymous cliched attacks on me and the others on this board deserved a bit of a comeback, if only to point out how non-verbal, unsubstantial posts are so damn easy to copy (even by this "ellison wannabe"), and that you really aren't trying.
So before you go all "peeps is tryin' ta muss up da Masta an' shit" just remember everybody here has heard the Ebonics schitck and it's pretty old.
If you want to put me or us down, you should try matching wits with the best of us on any of the topics presented here. I'm certainly not talking about myself...but the day you can talk trash to some of the folks on here with substance is the day you will be able to criticize us.
Now it took a lot for Scott to drop the anonymous Meat byline, step out from behind the mask and - I've seen a lot more out of him intellectually since that time. I really respect that guy a lot for what he's said and done, as I have enjoyed the addition of posts by Melissa. Scott has, just to give an example, proven himself to be certainly more than a "Bag of Meat" with some stylistic flourishes in his post.
I can only hope that your contributions to this rich medium will improve in the same manner.
My apologies to the rest of you that didn't get it and to Rick. The moral of the story, chit'lins is: Never give an attention seeker that which they most desire.
Jay
HEATHER: A little while ago you spoke about Walt Disney's issues with 'blackies'...yeah, sadly that's not much of a secret. We should be careful not to turn this forum into 'The Walt Disney Hate Board,' but it's really silly how easy it is to find skeletons in Uncle Walt's closet.
Nevertheless, it's all peanuts compared to Walter's testimony to the 'House of Non-American Activites' in 1947 as a friendly witness. Check it all out here:
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst203/documents/disney.html
The creator of Mickey Mouse was a rodent, all right, but he wasn't a mouse.
Speaking of which...does anyone here remember a little movie called HELLRAISER? As is common in the horror community, the resounding cry to HELLRAISER is usually, "the original was good, the sequels sucked."
It's awfully difficult to judge HELLRAISER sometimes. It's either the work of a genius or the work of a man due for some serious medication. Yes, all the close-ups of flesh being lovingly torn by hooks was repellent to the extreme...but there was SOME sort of idea, a theme crying to get out from that film. I think HELLRAISER was trying to be truly beautiful, dark poetry...a 'song of the flesh'.
Unfortunetly, HELLRAISER seems to have only found it's crowd with sadomasochists, which it may have well been intended for.
Just curious: does anyone have any details on how Harlan's 'internet piracy' battle is going?
Little Washu
Rick & Joseph:
Damn, you guys strike fast. Only two spots remain.
Move fast, fellow Webderlanders.
Joseph:
With about eight minutes left, myself, the inlaws, and few of my local friends are seated, watching the then 3-2 game. The Americans were really turning it on (they had for the first 13 or so minutes of the period). I looked at the father-in-law, and he nodded, and asked; "You want OT too, dont'cha?".
I smiled, and nodded over a sip on my beer.
Based on the quality of the game we saw, it seemed the only fair way to end it. Edge of your seat, one shot finishes the job.
That's the only thing about the game I didn't like.
Scott, looking forward to Italy in four years.
Xanadu, where you got it wrong was all the quotes of mine you used were referenced on viewers of child pornography. Later the discussion mutated into child molestation, which is a considerably different topic.
A true story, and those from Chicago might remember this: about three years ago, a professor from Lake Forest College, a rather dowdy, middle-aged woman with a family, was caught with tons of child porn on her computer. Her face made the papers numerous times, she was fired, she was prosecuted...it was a fairly big stink in Lake Forest.
Yes, she broke both the university's standards and the local laws. No, it did not need to become the daily news for a solid week. This woman was not your drooling sicko at the Kinko's (the example which started this miserably long thread). She got sucked up into this, as her one public statement made clear, and she was clearly in need of some help. YES, I think a little more sanity and sympathy for people like her would go a long way towards a balanced solution to this problem. That sentiment is NOT a ringing endorsement for coddling convicted child molesters, which you are offensively implying I support.
I'm done with this topic now.
--King Lurk
Scott & Rick,
I've sent an invitation to the League to you, Rick.
Oh, and good analysis, Scott, on the game. I agree that it was more realistically a 3-2 game. Good play by Canada, especially considering how much of the 3rd period was spent in your side of the ice.
Regards,
Joseph
Rick:
Love to have you aboard, mon ami. That would make only two spots remaining, so if you decide to the affirmative, make either I, Mel, or Joseph (he's filled in well before) aware, and the invitation is as good as sent.
Lynn: C'mon, it's spring training: gonna get the mistakes out of my system early.
Scotty "Stone-hands" Reeston
Rick - I believe Webderlander Cindy bought the ugly little thing, and thus could provide any visual material we need - a direct link to the ebay site should also work (though that may not last indefinitely) - but actually copying it is probably a copyright no-no. If all else fails - someone should probably try to purchase rights to the photo from ebay - (he says, willing to volunteer)
I had a story, too, and I grant permission to reprint it in any and all forms freely without any further consideration to me.
Though if I might re-title it "Little Sister".
Thanks
UGLY BABY STORIES: It sounds like a wonderful idea to archive these in the contributions section. I'll need okays from Berman and Lynn to do so (I forget if there where others besides Jay and these two that posted them here). I'm curious if anyone has suggestions on how to reference the auction (in the even ebay auctions are not linkable for an indefinite span. Screenshot of the auction? Copy the auction web page and graphics?
WEBDERLAND BASEBALL LEAGUE: I'm thinking about signing up for this, and if not once we get going I may provide some links from this section so everyone can keep track of our progress.
GRAND MASTA: I take both impersonation of people on this board AND threats of spamming or otherwise disrupting the board very seriously. In the future, a simple e-mail to my attention will usually resolve the issue much more quickly than starting a pissing contest here.
LYNN'S SMOKING E: I wanted to call attention to Lynn's cafepress webderland shirts/mugs/etc at
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
- I'm impressed with the work and want to encourage you to visit today!
WARNING:
To all those tired of the whole Xanadu Raging About Child Porn thread, this is another one. Feel free to skip, you won't miss it. But for those who stay, I actually lighten up some...
-------------------------
David: Two points re: Lurk. One - I don't think I mischaracterized what he said - when one makes the same point repeatedly - using variant language, it's hard not to see that. As I have proven with his actual quotes in my too-long response, he said what he said.
Two - what's the point of an argument if you don't think the other guy is wrong? And yes, I think he's wrong.
Now, your comment. I appreciate the detachment you you bring to these discussions - I may even envy it at times and obviously, I misread what you meant. So, in order to help me out, I'll give you the breakdown of what I read and exactly how I interpreted it. Let me know where I went wrong. Thanks.
The statement: "I also question the inflammatory presumption of stating that sexual abuse is devastating; not that it's desirable or should be legalized, but I know a few women who were molested when young and they're doing all right now. Some people fight and adapt and survive, others are shattered. There are all kinds out there."
Now, when someone says "I also question the inflammatory presumption..." - even in a polite discussion, there's no mistaking "I think you're wrong...", at least in Xanaduese. Which is fine - why bother adding to the mess if you don't think I'm wrong.
Next, you write, "not that it's desirable or should be legalized," - the Xanaduese translator reads this clearly as "not saying it's a good thing,"
Further along in the statement you offer the anecdotal evidence of some women you know; who, after such molestation - "are doing all right now." However, the "but" in front of this indicates that it's modifying the preceding clause, not standing as a seperate statement.
Finally, we add the closing statements, regarding the spectrum of responses to molestation and we're outta there. In Xanaduese - "Some get over it, some don't."
Now, your statement, as read in Xanaduese: "I think you're wrong stating sexual abuse is devastating; not that it's a good thing, but I know a few women who were molested when young and they're doing all right now. Some get over it, some don't."
Thus, the tiny Xanadu brain reads, "Sexual molestation, while not a good thing, is not devastating because some women I know got over it."
And thus, I type: "When I read that - I weep. THAT is why I rage. The use of neat, clinical language to normalize F**king rape of a minor - dismissing its inherent evil with a casual "Some, even most, got better." type of response."
My response included the phrase "even most" - I agree with you, it was uneccessary hyperbole that damaged my point. And you're right, rape is only one form of molestation, and by choosing to single that out, I was ignoring the whole spectrum of molestations available. And the final problem you had - "inherent evil" - hmm, still hyperbole, but I think I'm going to have to stick with it. I kinda like the image.
So, with your permission, I'd like to amend my response to: "When I read that - I weep. THAT is why I rage. The use of neat, clinical language to normalize the molestation of a minor - dismissing its inherent evil with a casual "Some got better" type of response."
Wow. Looking at that, I like it. It's got zing and punch, much better that what I typed before. Thank you.
I await your correction of this unworthy pupil.
Legal Disclaimer: Any preceding statements disparaging Xanadu's character and physical abilities are strictly the author's own, and do not reflect the opinions of anyone except Xanadu. Any sarcasm sensed in this post was purely intentional, and not to be confused with wit or actual humor. Do not drive, operate heavy machinery, consume alcohol, read magazines, watch television, operate a computational device, use a telephone, or any mechanical device invented after 1632 when, in the eyes of our Lord, the world basically went to pot.
Damn, 5 - 2, we win, but was truly agame close than the score indicated. The last two Canadian goals were the result of the Americans behind a goal and having to take chances late in trying to tie the game, so I don't really count those. You're bang-on, Alex Jay; McCreary (the referee) put his whistle away, and let the teams settle things. A dammed good game all the way around.
Mel told me, so no prob.
Now, if y'all will excuse this boy, he's going back to the wings, munchies and a cold Molson's Ex with the inlaws.
My heartiest congrats to Team USA; we'll see ya again in four.
Scott
Well, Chris, I agree with you on this--I just think our society in the West far too prudish at the mass level to actually go ahead and DO it.
In the interest of sparking discussion: Just what and when was the LAST thing decriminalized? Was it sodomy (which is still, I should point out, on the books as a crime in something like thirty U.S. states--this includes your general oral-genital slurpees, so the nooner that some of you may have gotten from your significant other makes you a criminal)? Homosexuality?
Whenever I hear people talk about decriminalizing something, I try to point out that doing so is not as simple as they might think, no matter how for it I may be.
Prostitution? Feh, what an easy discussion.
You are allowed to sell your time to a company in exchange for money. You are allowed to sell your likeness. You are allowed to sell your body in all sorts of ways, there is no reason in the world you shouldn't be allowed to sell your body for sex as well.
All the arguments about the abuses involved in prostitution are accurate - and they precisely describe the situation we ALREADY HAVE while making it illegal and forcing the practice underground.
Decriminalize it, regulate it, zone it, tax it.
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.
Simple topic. Simple solution.
Eeech.
N'Stynk and Christina Aguilera doing the closing ceremonies? Ah, well. At least Aguilera can sing somewhat.
Congratulations to Team Canada on the sweep of Olympic hockey.
It was a good game--and, until the last five minutes of the third, a close-fought (and CLEANLY-fought) game.
At least I can console myself with the facts that A) one of our boys, Simon Gagne, came away with gold--and that, in just a few days, I can go back to cheering on my Flyers when REAL hockey starts up again.
(On a similar note: Can we start up a WNHL? DAMN, those U.S. and Canada women's hockey players made for some great games!)
Brian and Alex:
I can see Daffy up on the cross, wtih Elmer as Mary Magdalene, below him, saying:
"Thanks for the sour parsimmons, buster!
You're right, I thought we had dvds of Warner Bros. I know Scotty would've snapped up any available, especially if they were original releases, with remastered sound.
Of course the man can be counted on in any campaign for them. Let him use his more devious skills...
Ah, Alex Jay, no prob. I'll tell him later: his universe comprises only the E center in Salt Lake right now.
Love to all, Melissa
Ladies and Gentlemen, children of all ages, step right up and see - with your own eyes - the most diturbing, the most amazing, the most horrifying sights ever human eyes have beheld...see the ugly, seemy underbelly of humanity...before you are the faces of the undecent, the unclean and immoral. YES, ladies and gentlemen, step right up and pay your two cents for the honor of seeing them up close and unairbrushed. NO hot bodies in spandex here...no ex-actress/models and suburban middle class adulterers...just pure, true and unedited humanity...STEP right up. Sorry, folks: No children allowed. (You Canadian Meatheads take note!)
http://www.ci.saint-paul.mn.us/depts/police/prostitution_photos_current.html
Far from the Hollywood mythology, folks, are the faces of those who engage in this time-honored profession and diverse are those who indulge in it. Just another topic starter here, folks. Victimless crime? Immoral spawn of Satan? Consentual Commercial Transaction?
Alex, I did a search for Warners DVDs, and I noticed that there just aren't any-- apart from the genuinely dire _Space Jam_. One of the reasons I did this was because, a few years ago, they put out boxed laserdisc set of the Warners cartoons, complete and uncut, tho I believe that they did excise the more overtly offensive of the batch.
I am hoping that Warners _will_ issue the whole lot on DVD, complete and uncut, even if they do segregate the racist ones onto a separate NC-17 disc for us geeks and archivists. However, I'm not optimistic about the "uncensored" criteria.
By the way, a few years back, some friends and I were pitching ideas for the Warner Brothers Passion Play: the life of Jesus, with Warners cartoon stars in the main roles. Some of the ideas:
Mary and Joseph would be played by the Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote; Wile E. had to get Mary to Bethlehem, but there were all thse _boulders_ and _anvils_ in the way...
We went against typecasting, and had Daffy Duck play Jesus, while Bugs was to be a diffident and manipulative Judas Iscariot. The general idea was to let Bugs maneuver Daffy into the torments of Christ. For example:
Bugs; "That's right, Doc. I'm the King of the Jews. Do you want to crucify me now, or wait until we get to Golgotha?"
Daffy: "Crucify him now!" You get the general idea.
I'm not certain about the rest of the casting. I believe Porky was to play a porcine King Herod, and Yosemite Sam was Pontius Pilate. Elmer, of course, was the centurion sent to gather up Jesus for the Romans. The Tasmanian Devil was probably a leper, casting Pepe le Pew as Lazarus was a gag in more ways than one, Speedy Gonzales was the Apostle Paul, thus explaining the rapid spread of Christianity, and Tweety and Sylvester were characters in one of Jesus' parables-- there was something about the literal meaning of "Sufferin' Succotash." The gangsters Bugsy and Louie were the two thieves condemned with Christ.
The thing could've written itself, if we let it. We'd wanted to work up another parable, told by Judas _about_ Jesus, with the storyteller changing the elements to torment Daffy, but that never worked out.
Coincidentally enough, this morning I caught a commercial for Mountain Dew, starring Davey and Goliath. Had sort of the same feel to it.
Goddamn. Do you fine people realize that the only Looney Tunes on DVD is SPACE JAM?!? Not a man jack of the classics I grew up watching are in digital.
Still, the Warner Bros. website has some goodies on it--I watched a miniconcert by Tori Amos there last night and was VERY impressed by the fidelity of the audio and video--and they have several web episodes of Timber Wolf, Chuck Jones' last creation. Plus, you HAVE to see "The God and Devil Show"; it is absotively hilarious!
But as to the DVD dearth of Merrie Melodies and Looney Tunes ... ah think--as say, ah THINK ah smell a little Webderlandic letter-writing campaign a-comin' on!
Oh--and sorry; I don't think I can join the baseball league. I'm going to be in my usual Sandbox league again, and that takes up enough time of a person whose time and energy is already far too given over to procrastination.
Xanadu:
You're entitled to your passion, and you're entitled to argue on behalf of that passion. But you are not entitled to change other people's comments, to read things into them that are not there, or to attribute motivations and feelings to them that may not be warranted.
Where you went too far in your attacks on Lurk's comments is in asserting he or she does not know right from wrong, simply because Lurk's comments do not square with your beliefs. It could be just as likely that Lurk did not clearly delineate his or her position, or that you misunderstood or misinterpreted what Lurk wrote.
Your fierce passion on the subject does not entitle you to misread other people's remarks. Please try to focus on what is said, not on what you think is being said or implied.
As for your response to my comments, after I wrote: "I also question the inflammatory presumption of stating that sexual abuse is devastating; not that it's desirable or should be legalized, but I know a few women who were molested when young and they're doing all right now. Some people fight and adapt and survive, others are shattered. There are all kinds out there."
You responded:
> When I read that - I weep. THAT is why I rage. The use
> of neat, clinical language to normalize F**king rape of
> a minor - dismissing its inherent evil with a casual
> "Some, even most, got better." type of response.
In the first place, I never said "most"; that's your interpolation. In the second, molestation does not consist solely of rape. Third, I never questioned the "inherent evil" of the act; I was commenting on the victim's response to it. Fourth, you don't know the women I was talking about -- I do. If their experience doesn't interest you, fine; we'll leave it at that.
But please don't put your words in my mouth, or assume you are having the same argument with me that you've probably had with others in the past, or that I'm saying or believe the same things they did. It's this sort of heavy-handed response that shuts down reasonable discussion of difficult topics and helps put otherwise harmless people -- like the fellows who write about violent and vivid fantasies yet never commit a crime against another person -- in jail. (See Laura Kipnis's _Bound and Gagged: pornography and the politics of fantasy in America_.)
Little washu mentioned one of my favorite Daffy gags as well-- that deadpan, excessively polite plea of "You're hurting me." Kills me every time.
I've seen a lot of the censored Warners cartoons-- and yeah, there are places on the Web where they can be downloaded, or eighth-generation tapes can be purchased. Some of them are cringe-worthy, and others are actually really funny; Bob Clampett's "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves" is an amazing piece of work. But it really is jarring to watch Bugs Bunny handing out explosive ice cream bars, saying things like "Here ya go, slant-eyes" and "Here's one for you, zipperhead."
But on a much nicer note, there's a series of Warners training cartoons about "Private Snafu" that's worth seeking out. Not only because Chuck Jones made some of them, but many were written by Theodore Geisel, better known as Dr Seuss.
Chuck Jones is dead, alas.
The Abonimibal snowman gag to Daffy Duck is used quite a bit in both Chuck Jones and Tex Avery cartoons. Off course it can be traced to the character George from John Steinbeck's 'Of Mice & Men'. I remember the final of the Screwy Squirrel cartoons.
There was a great series that BBC produced years ago called Stay Tooned presented by Tony 'Baldrick' Robinson which really explored the history of animation, particulary touching on issues such as racial sterotyping.
I hope the best thing WB can do now is to release the original WB cartoons (including the infamous Bugs Bunny 'BB nips the nips') restored and uncut onto DVD. No intercutting into inferior filler animation. I had the opportunity to see many of these cartoons uncut in Saudi Arabia and wish I could have taped them.
(Just reminded me of Chuck Jones comments concerning Fred Quimby who apparently didn't want too much criticism of the Nazi's in case they won! I think you can find it in Chuck Amuck).
Going to see A Beautiful Mind today before catching Ali later in the week. Yeah, I hear most of ABM is BS but I don't care anymore, I just hope it isn't full of that 'love will make mental conditions better' simplicity. The kind of philosophy espoused by film makers who seem to have little experience of mental health care. At least Rain Man didn't end with Dustin Hoffman autism suddenly cured because of Tom Cruise's growing brotherly love and concern.
FAQ
Yes, folks, even before the first pitch of the season, Scott "The Bag o' Meat" Reeston is zero runs, zero hits & two, yes count 'em two errors. I don't know about you, Bob, but if I were him, I'd have that mitt sent in to the shop for a tune-up.
::grin::
L.
PS. You guys are officially a bad influence. My SO is *already* sick of baseball!
Sorry, error. The show with Ellison airs March 10th.
My bad
Scott
"Of coise you know, dis means war..."
"I claim this planet in the name of Mars. Hmmm, Isn't it lovely?"
Probably no need to remind thos who frequent the site, but the Patron auteur sallies forth onto the program "The Conspiracy Zone" tonight on TNN at 9 PM EST.
Remember, so you can follow along;
"I'll see what the little stinker is up to on my super video detecto set..."
Marvin appears on screen with ray gun, and fires. Dodger's head becomes a charred, smoking mess.
Of course, the topic is UFOs...
"Run for your lives, folks, or you'll be up to your armpits in Martians!"
You are making me very angry (repeated wheeze of breath). Very angry, indeed, says Scott, who appears to have Martian in his heritage.
Gods, more of those bessed images filter down...
Stupor Duck, after righting a building he's seen collapsing, to a burly construction worker:
"No need to thank me, my good man, I was just doing my duty."
The camera pans back, to reveal the name of the demoliton company the construction worker works for, just as a solid punch connsects with Daffy's beak...a thunderous sound as the fist strikes home...
Stupor duck, reeling, his face a stunned mess: "Ahnd duh liaghts went out, allllover theworld..."
Scott gets out his Acme disintegrator pistol...
"Well, whadddya know.....it.......disintegrated!
A few people have already mentioned their immortal Looney Tunes moments, but my very own favourite will ALWAYS be Daffy Duck's first encounter with the Abominable Snowman. The Snowman proceeds to coo adorable baby-talk to Daffy as he horribly mutilates Daffy beyond recognition:
SNOWMAN: Dooh, just what I always wanted, my own little bunny wabbit! I will name him George, and I will HUG him, and PET him, and SQUEEZE him...
DAFFY: I'm not a bunny rabbit.
SNOWMAN: ...and PAT him, and PET him...
DAFFY: You're hurting me. Put me down, please.
SNOWMAN: ...and RUB him, and CARESS him, and...
It's just not the same without those wonderful voices, though.
DOOH!
Jay,
Well, obviously he was using Duck Dodgers math, ya silly goose.
Regards,
Joseph
Grandmassah Flash and the Funka-hooked-on-phonics said: "...gonna post two (3) messages fo every one (1)..."
LOL. How many fingers did you hold up when you counted that out?
Nothing like a little unbridled paranoia to put the attention back on yourself when you really have nothing important to say.
YO YO YO 'SUP 'SUP 'SUP BITCHES!!!
All you mothafuckas check this shit out aaiiiyyyyeeee!!!!!!
Well well well, looks like the Salt Masta's got hisself an impersonator! Now the Esquire has heard that imitation is the greatest of all d'em phoney baloney compliments, but let's get real here fools. If anyone's gonna impersonate anyone else on dis board, then dis boards goin' down in a big way. And Server Masta' Wyatt's gonna have a monsta job ahead of hisself.
And most important of all, MC Ellison's gonna be mad as all hell.
So dis what's gonna happen when the next noodle dick mo' fo' do his best to pretend he the G Masta Esquire. The REAL G' Masta's gonna post two (3) messages fo every one (1) that pretends to live with G' Masta's momma (who passed when the G' Masta was da Little Masta'). Not only dat, but each message will erect LONGER and HARDER like when the Esquire gets a line of stippers and hoes given lap dances and hand jobs.
Now I knows no one on dis board wants to read anythang from the H, let alone read somethang everyday, but dis the rules fo' any wannabe imposter!
All inquiries and questions will be directed to Mr. King Lurk since he all mad props bout child pornos and shit.
Warmest Regards,
The Grand Masta' H. Salt, Esq
In light of Harlan's lawsuits against various ISPs, you might want to read this article by Laurence Lessig about copyright and the Internet, at http://gilder.com/AmericanSpectatorArticles/Lessig/Control.htm.
I skimmed it quickly, and frankly, it reads as though someone has been forced to compile a sophisticated argument based around the usual Net-raver-speak; once he starts talking about "content" rather than "works of art," you can see the rights of creators going down the tubes in favor of some hypothetical revamping of copyright and protection law.
It's part of George Gilder's site. Reading the following blurb, you'll see why I never had much regard for him as a thinker:
"The new paradigm is the speed-of-light world of the all-optical network. It is a new industrial era in which the Internet is the defining force. It is a new communications architecture based on broad bandwidth. In a word, it is the telecosm."
Sort of like Pat Robertson on Ecstasy, isn't it?
One more tip of the hat for Jones and Maltese, and I'm off.
From Duck Dodgers In the 24th and a Half Cetury:
"Starting from where we are, we go 33,600 turbo miles due Up, then west in an astro-arc deviation to here; then, following the Great Circle, seven radial loops south by down-east, by astro-astroble to here, here, and here; then by space-navigable compass to here, here, and then here, and here; by 13 point stratrocumulus, bearing 4 million light-years, and thus to our destination...Did you get all that, Eager Young Space Cadet?
Y-Y-Y-Ye-Ye-Ye-Yessss!
Well, I sure wish you'd explain it to me, buster!"
Helluva way to realise how much you love something.
Scott, about to hijack the Martian Maggot for another mission to find the element Aluvium Fosdex, the Shaving Cream Atom!
Scott Reeston, IN THE 24TH AND A HALF CENTURY!
I'd say 'I'll miss you' Chuck,
but your soul and spirit live on Earth.
(giant anvil drops, Jay opens a tiny umbrella)
Joseph,
I don't know what's been done with Candlestick. I never caught a game there but having visited SF in the nasty-hot parts of summer (nasty-hot for everyone but San Franciscans), I can't imagine having to wear a jacket at a day game in July.
Also, I'm in complete agreement with your choices. "Rabbit Fire" and "Duck Seasoning" and the third one (which I can't remember the title of), are my absolute faves. It's a pity that most kids today have seen the PC, all the best bits edited, versions of these classics. Hopefully, the Cartoon Network will have their "June Bugs" marathon again this year and I'll get to see them (unedited) once more.
-Andrew
I guess one of my favorite Chuck Jones moments also provides credit to his best collaborator, Michael Maltese. It's in one of those gemlike "Wabbit Season" cartoons. And I love the scene because the dialogue and staging works utterly _unlike_ a cartoon. Here it is, from memory:
Daffy has just pointed out to Elmer the Bugs is, in fact, a Wabbit. Bugs admits, "That's right, Doc. I'm a wabbit. Do you want to shoot me now, or wait until you get home?"
Daffy leaps up and screams, "Shoot him now! Shoot him now!"
"You keep out of this," Bugs replies. "He does NOT have to shoot you now."
"He does SO have to shoot me now!" Daffy yells, "and I demand that you shoot me now!"
Elmer shrugs, and blasts at Daffy's head.
After Daffy's bill stops spinning, he walks over to Bugs. "Let's try that again," he says, calmly furious.
And they run through the dialogue _again_, both facing the camera, reciting the dialogue like a bad play.
"That's right, Doc, I'm a wabbit. Do you want to shoot me now or wait until we get home?"
Daffy, eyeing Bugs suspiciously, says "Shoot him now, shoot him now."
"You keep out of this. He does not have to shoot you now."
"AHA!" screams Daffy, his accusing finger jabbing right at Bugs.
Daffy turns to the camera. "Pronoun trouble." He then explains, "It's not 'He doesn't have to shoot _you_ now.' It's 'He doesn't have to shoot _me_ now.'"
And he jumps back to Elmer. "And I DEMAND that you shoot me now!" he screams, and Elmer, happy to oblige, blows his beak into the next county.
God, that scene is worthy of Jack Benny or Abbott and Costello
"Ho haha guard turn dodge parry spin ha thrust!"
Chuck's gone and that's just despicable.
Rabbit Season and Duck Season won't feel the same this year.
Another legend gone, but not forgotten. Thank you, Chuck Jones, for the laughter, for the wisdom, for the contribution you made to our lives.
By the way, anyone who might be interested seeing who the REAL Little Washu is, drop by this site:
www.manyfacesofwashu.com
Despite what you may have heard, anime isn't ALL Pokemon and Sailor Moon, you know.
(And the first numbnut who goes "oooooh, he named himself after a giiiiiirl..." will be visited in their nightmares by William Shatner and his greatest single hits.)
Little Washu (aka Benjamin)
Velveteen Rabbits:
Scott -- It's an in-joke. An in-joke I will never, ever explain.
Jon
Dammit, that's Illudium PU-36
I'll hand in my Acme Disintegrator pistol now...
Xan:
No prob, just thought to invite you.
BTW, how do you find Planet X?
Hanging out with Commander K-9, and my stash of Illudim PU-36, Scott
Hey, David:
"Hello, my baby, hello, my honey, hello my ragtime gal..." ?
Goddamnit, my memory never failed me that badly before...it's just one lesson in humiltity after another in the Webderland.
Thanks, Dave.
Little Washu
ELLISON PROFILE ALERT: Saw copies of the Mar/April issue of "Pages" on the magazine racks at my local Walden Bookstore (I'm in the middle of the country -- Missouri -- so East Coast folks may not see it till next week). The article, "Harlan Ellison VS. AOL" is featured inside. There are some good shots of Ellison, too. And I just learned, after picking up a copy and reading the "editor's letter," about Ellison's call to John Hogan. Here's what Hogan wrote:
"Someone else who certainly lived up to his reputation is Harlan Ellison. He called the day we here at "Pages" had sent a photographer to his house to take the pictures that accompany his interview on p. 74. Imagine returning from lunch to hear this message from an enraged Ellison: 'Your photographer arrived stinking drunk, ran his car through the front wall of our house into our bedroom, killed my gerbil -- killed my gerbil! -- and then came in and vomited all over a wonderful rug we brought back from Afghanistan. My attorneys are on the launching pad adn we need to speak immediately!"
The editor goes on to say that the call was in jest, of course. Gotta admit, that message was a classic right up there with the one I heard about on NPR -- it was voicemail message -- from 10 years ago! -- that had actually been passed around from machine to machine -- from a the mother of some insipid guy, calling in an enraged state of mind to tell him that he could locate a particular book himself, and that he and "the little Mermaid can go fuck yourselves." Hilarious. Especially since the woman was obviously jewish -- her kvetching (hope that's the right word) tone made the message that much funnier.
Anyway, "Pages" featuring the article, "Harlan Ellison Vs. AOL" is in stores now. Everyone go out and buy two copies, so "Pages" can outsell the competition ("Book," run by megalomaniacal editor).
Out here -- DTS
My favorite WB line belongs to Marvin the Martian: "Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering kaboom!" (I can do a pretty good imititation of his voice, too) Damn - I miss Mel.
Scott(aka BoM): Thanks, but no thanks. My knowledge of baseball is non-existent, (a sucking, black void is the image that comes to mind), compared to the assembled knowledge here. After watching the post-season Yankees last year, I realized I am not a fan of baseball. (Please - before I am burned in effigy, I admire the sport - I love aspects of the gameplay - but I cannot watch any more 3+ hour games without going batty) I'm sorry - it is definitely my deficiency. I'll just enjoy from the stands on this one...
Error on Scott:
Perkins was left-handed, Piersall was a righty.
My first error of the season.
Scott
Forgot:
Xanadu & Rob: you guys interested?
Joseph: Wonderful call. The image of Elmer, upon finding out its baseball season...
Just strikes me how indelibly these images can weld into our memory.
I'm a fiddler crab, and Elmer keeps shooting my beak around, says a beleaguered Scott
Adding in my two bits, I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the classics of American humor, "Rabbit Fire" and "Rabbit Seasoning." Such a great combination of lowbrow and highbrow humor. Such writing (by Michael Maltese)! Such animation! Such fun!
Seriously - is there a funnier absurd argument in the 20th century than "Duck season! Rabbit season!" (Well, maybe "Who's On First," but it's close.)
By the way, IMDB.com has a nice little tribute to Mr. Jones on their front page this morning.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph:
Wadddya talkin' about, worst baseball movie? That Bendix piece was out by a mile. The dinger for worst baseball movie is...
"The Babe", starring John Goodman, as George Herman (though his performance reminded me more of Pee Wee Herman), and a fungal growth of badly sculpted Silly Putty they hung off his nose to make it appear to be The Bambino's probosci. That was truly a waste of celluoid.
Worst performance of an actor trying to look like a ballplayer on the field is...
Tony Perkins in "Fear Strikes Out". The story of Jimmy Piersall is quite good, but watching Perkins, a right handed thrower, try to pass himself off as a southpaw is painful to watch.
Good Baseball films:
The Bad News Bears
Bull Durham
Eight Men Out
Bang The Drum Slowly
Pride of the Yankees
Damn Yankees
61*
Each of these definitely plays for me.
BTW Jon: Velveteen Rabbits?
Scott
Rob - I agree - many modern cartoons are not the same. And just one small nit - it's Friz Freleng, not Fritz. Took me a buncha years to figure it out...
From an interview with Chuck Jones:
"I remember someone asking Alfred Hitchcock what he required from actors, and he said, [imitating Alfred Hitchcock] "Well, I prefer them to have a mouth, and two eyes, hopefully on opposite sides of the nose..." He didn't care whether they were great actors or not; he could make them great actors by the way he directed them. So personality is what counts. The reason Bugs Bunny and the rest of them endure, I think, is that when you wrote lines for Bugs Bunny, they wouldn't ever work for Daffy, or Yosemite Sam. Each one of them had a personal way, when you wrote dialogue for them, in the same sense that you'd never write dialogue for Chico Marx that you'd write for Groucho...personality, individuality—the character of each one...You move your hands a certain way and move a certain way, and if you sat down with an animation director for two hours, he would be able to move a character the way you move. We not only have to figure out what a character looks like, but we have to find out what those little differences are."
Fluidity IS a precept that seems to have died in animation, particularly in t.v. Even masterpieces like 'The Simpsons ' disregards it. And WITHOUT the defense of a tight budget given use of computers now. I think the most flagrant example is 'King of the Hill', which takes NO advantage of the form at all, not even in the graphics; could just as easily be live action on no money. Hopefully, the standard will change one day.
A DAMN shame, losing Chuck. A brilliant man. I saw him speak at UCLA once and we had a helluva time.
He and his ingenious compatriots Robert McKimson, Fritz Freling and Bob Clampett will be a housed in m'heart fer all perpetuity.
(For my two bits, my all time faves by those nut cases include their irreverent version of the Three Bears, Sylvester competing with grimy half-starved ally cats to get Tweedy and Charlie Dog - the irritant trying to attach himself to a master by demonstrating, among other things, that he's literally a POINTER, and the forgetful wolf chasing Bugs around: "now what WUZ I doin'? ...Yeah, yeah - THAT'S it...I wuz LOOKIN' fer somthin'". Well, I could go on n' on).
Heather,
My wife the former journalist agrees with David's asstertion that you leanr copy by doing, but she also recommends getting a good style manual. Now, different fields use different standards (for instance, most news writing uses the Associated Press Style Manual, while many academic writers prefer the American Psychological Association style - personally, I like the elegance of the Chicago Style), so she'd like to know what kind of copy you plan to be editing.
Jon,
Nah, worst baseball movie was "The Babe Ruth Story" with William Bendix. At least the actors in "The Natural" as pendatic and preachy as it was, looked like they knew something about baseball.
Alex,
General agreement with you on the state of modern cartoons, with some minor exceptions (for instance, I find "Static Shock" fun and moral without being overly preachy, and "Recess" manages to encapsulate the whole hierarchy of a Ray Bradbury playground in 15 minutes, an admirable and funny feat).
Andrew,
You are, of course, correct. I made a huge gaffe on that one. Say, have they burned down Candlestick yet and salted the earth?
Regards,
Joseph
Jon:
You're the seventh. Just a question, though: there is a underscore punctuation mark between stover and ca, correct?
Example: jmstover_ca
If not, post the correct one, next time you're through, and we'll save you a place.
Okay, any other volunteers who want to waste not one penny in a quest for rotisserie glory?
Oh, I'm just wild about Harry...
Love to all, Melissa
Strange filaments:
Has anyone looked at the Interactive Want Ads or the Guest Book lately? I'm not sure who's scarier -- Mary Lane or God's Money 4 U.
I've got the wiggins.
Jon
Have it in for Rich Garces?
Au contraire, mon ami.
I worship the glory which is El Guapo and I wept openly last week when it was reported that he lost 30 pounds in the off-season. That just isn't right. That just isn't natural. And if he was even one bad outing this April, I hope they rush him right out to the Pizzeria Uno down the block and let him gorge his way back to full strength.
Wile E. Coyote:
That's perfect. Wile E. Coyote as Sisyphus, Daffy Duck as Job...*The Time Falling Anvils Take to Light.*
Jon
Ironically enough, I heard that Santayana quote-- the one about fanatics and redoubling of efforts-- from the late Chuck Jones, describing Wile E. Coyote.
Baseball (III):
Melissa/Scott: Sure. Send the invite or whatever it is to the above email address, and thanks.
Santayana: Didn't Santayana also say "The definition of a fanatic is someone who redoubles his efforts while losing sight of his goals"? Now, I got that from a Batman cartoon, and Batman may have misquoted in the heat of battle, but I think it was Santayana.
Jon
Jon: Want to get into the league we've set up?
Just let Scotty or I know.
Melissa
Hello, we're running through all the Warner Bros. cartoon dvds and tapes we have this morning. The kids are getting a lesson in good artistry and humor, and actually, they're lovng it.
Cassie wants to see "the cute froggy" again. Scotty still breaks up as Michigan sings "Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone", while his owner stares at the walls inside a cell in the sanitorium.
By the way, David, you're right.
I'm laughing myself half silly at Marc Anthony when he receives the kitty shaped cookie, and starts to ball his eyes out.
We have all the Bear family cartoons including the salute to Father's Day we play for Scotty every year. He can do Junior's voice perfectly, and doesn't miss a line.
Oh, I love this. A phone rings, and Bugs answers:
"Franz Liszt? Nope, never hoid of him."
Hope you all are enjoying a marvelous talent. Pity the man it was attached to is gone.
Love to all Melissa
Aaaghhh. Auuuugh! Orrrrghhhh!
The moralic acid, it burns! It burns!
gckajgfkfndbnksksk....
Jon
David - "I also question the inflammatory presumption of stating that sexual abuse is devastating; not that it's desirable or should be legalized, but I know a few women who were molested when young and they're doing all right now. Some people fight and adapt and survive, others are shattered. There are all kinds out there."
When I read that - I weep. THAT is why I rage. The use of neat, clinical language to normalize F**king rape of a minor - dismissing its inherent evil with a casual "Some, even most, got better." type of response.
Baseball:
Boy, Chris L., ya got it in for Garces.
Favourite quip about David Wells's 40-pound weight loss to start this season: "Gee, why didn't he think of that before?" I wonder how many other pitchers have had 20 wins *and* gout in the same season.
In baseball lore, "Bellyache" is a euphemism for "venereal disease," as per Babe Ruth sitting out part of a season with a "bellyache."
Best Babe Ruth imitation: John Candy on SCTV.
Worst Babe Ruth imitation: John Goodman in *The Babe,* in which the filmmakers forgot that Ruth didn't start getting really fat until the 1920s.
New Recurrence of Old Ruth Rumour: The 'Was Babe Ruth Black?' question has resurfaced, but no longer as the insult when Ty Cobb and others circulated it.
Best nickname not yet mentioned: Three Finger Brown.
Worst scene in a baseball movie: Wesley Snipes plays ball during a monsoon in *The Fan.* Has director Tony Scott ever *seen* a baseball game?
Best baseball movie: *Bull Durham.*
Best baseball movie made in the last decade: 61*
Worst baseball movie: *The Natural* (the Major League series isn't overwrought and portentous enough to qualify).
Best baseball-related portent: Shouldn't the design of Enron Field have warned someone that something was up?
Most undeserving scapegoat: The Boston pitchers blow the lead and the game, but Bill Buckner takes the heat.
Jon
King – I love the way you keep hiding behind cries that I have misinterpreted you. So, once again I go back and waste the bandwidth to actually reprint the quotes.
I'll give you the date/time stamp for each one. I'll quote the first few words of the whole post, then jump to the relevant sentences, (keeping the context in place, so as not to be seen as too arbitrary) and move on. (The time stamps are in place to allow anyone to go back and look at the whole post, just to keep me honest.) My responses are noted by Date/Timestamp only, no quoting.
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King Lurk - Tuesday, February 19 2002 12:43:34
As a systems administrator...
3) The current solution of choice, which is to jail people who are caught looking at "child porn," is not much more of a solution than jailing drug users. Equally unsettling is ensuring that they will have no chance to reform and put their lives back together, after counseling or whatever, since we fire them, fine them, confiscate their property, and publish their names as child offenders in newspapers and the Internet.
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King Lurk - Tuesday, February 19 2002 13:49:45
Scott, I can't explain why anyone would indulge in child pornography....
I would like to see this problem (and yes, it IS a problem) treated a little more sanely and sympathetically than it currently is. Our present set of solutions tends to demonize these people, and everyone seems comfortable in asserting that they are "beyond help."
I have two children myself, so I don't think I'm arguing blindly here. But I also can conceive of the possibility, however awful, that one of my own children could someday be arrested for viewing child pornography, and I'd like to think that they would have some other recourse to rehabilitation besides mandatory jail terms and social ruin.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to note, for the record, that it is only now that I entered the discussion of this topic.
Xanadu - Tuesday, February 19 2002 20:13:12
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King Lurk - Wednesday, February 20 2002 5:1:53
>Child pornography is a form of rape. <
I totally agree. ...
When someone crosses our current line, and downloads something disgusting at the Kinko's, we scream for justice. But let's take a look at the broader picture, and wonder if maybe it's our own institutions, including our beloved free Internet, and some of our values that need to be prosecuted.
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I respond, with my usual vitriol...
Xanadu - Wednesday, February 20 2002 5:46:46
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King lurk - Wednesday, February 20 2002 6:22:2
--What we do as adults (and between adults) is our own business--
Yes, it is....
My point is that not everyone is equipped with the same tools that most of us would like to think we have...those of self-control, conscience, moral selectivity, whatever. And so when faced with this panoply of porn choices, not everyone is able to discriminate with what is "ok" (Ginger Rides Again, Buttman Does the Himalayas) and what is not ok (anything to do with minors, or beasts, or death, or excrement...etc.)
In way, we are laying out all this candy, and saying, "just don't eat the red ones, they're poisonous." You and and I can handle that, but many, obviously, cannot. So when they do slip and fall, I'd like to see us acknowledge that we as a culture made it a bit too easy for them to tumble, and that rather than kick them while they are down, we'll try to help them back up.
------------------------------------------------------------
Here I actually do get virulent.
Xanadu - Wednesday, February 20 2002 7:17:36
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King Lurk - Wednesday, February 20 2002 11:57:33
--People who have repeatedly viewed...
Cute, Xanadu, but your own revenge fantasies are not serviceable as real solutions to a real problem.
--Monsters need only to be exterminated.--
The World According to Jay. (editor's note: I corrected the misattributation, as he did in his next post) How pleasant for all of us that we don't actually live in it.
My suggestion of pity and rehabilitation may be a minority one, and it might even be unworkable, but the general drift of "kill the bastards" that's being aired here suggests that this topic is a bit too intense for this forum...
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Lots of discussion, and we get to my last post...
Xanadu - Friday, February 22 2002 19:47:36
...And when a King Lurk starts worrying about how awfully we're treating the bad guys, how we should be more compassionate, how we should see that it's a sickness and it's terrible that someone should be marked forever because they can't distinguish right from wrong.... well, when that happens, you get me for the last few days or so....
------------------------------------------------------------
There. Tell me, Mr. Lurk – where the hell did I get you wrong?
Funny you guys should all remember Michigan J. Frog.
When I did a little proofing and fact checking for HE four or five years ago (_Slippage_ and _Edgeworks III_), I caught Ellison misquoting the little emerald vaudevillian, just as Little Washu did today.
It's "Hello, my baby, hello, my honey, hello my ragtime gal..." Ellison switched the "baby" and "honey" in earlier editions of the _Hornbook_, Washu simply got some of the words wrong. How do I know this? My Dad was a pianist and musical entertainer, and this was one of the songs he used to sing to himself around the house, along with "I'm Gonna Sit Right Down and Write Myself a Letter," so by the time I saw and heard the old standard in the Warner Brothers cartoon, it was very old hat.
Heather:
I don't know any books on editing copy. Never read one. I learned by heavy reading myself, to get a FEEL for the language, and then by doing.
Calvino was a sort of Renaissance Man of Italian letters. The Italian fairy tales collection is something he compiled from authentic Italian folk stories -- he served as the Brothers Grimm of Italy in that respect. But then he wrote his own tremendously imaginative novels and short stories. The ones I liked best of the former are _If On a Winter's Night a Traveler_ and _The Baron in the Trees_, and of the latter _Cosmicomics_.
And no, I am not Grand Masta Salt. I rarely do anything anonymously or pseudonymously, and when I do, it tends to be short and sour, and attempts to sound smarter and more refined than I am, not louder, dumber, and more obnoxious. I also don't carry jokes on at mind-numbing length.
Finally, though I wanted to stay out of the child porn discussion, I liked Chris L's and King Lurk's statements on behalf of reason, and I'd like to say that I don't think any material should be legally obscene, though if criminal acts were committed in their manufacture they should be firmly prosecuted.
I also question the inflammatory presumption of stating that sexual abuse is devastating; not that it's desirable or should be legalized, but I know a few women who were molested when young and they're doing all right now. Some people fight and adapt and survive, others are shattered. There are all kinds out there.
Howsabout you too Bermanator? Wanna play some baseball with Todd, Chris, Andrew, Lynn, Joseph and Me?
Four spots left in Webderland park, guys.
"Batter up", cries Scott, as he dusts off the plate. He's put on his Kevlar Umpiring suit: The management has informed him of their promotion for tonight's game:
Hand Gun and Hard Liquor Night
Velvet:
Just read your post, and have to take a bit of umbrage with some of what you said.
Now to pick a nit: Jane Stewart was the Liberal Party Minister of Human Resources when she handed out billions in block grants, often for what sppeared to be make-work programs, and mostly in Liberal ridings. Yes, patronage and waste, but; wrong party and disabled groups recieved precious little of the money.
Now the important stuff.
Governments in Canada: all governments have gone out of their way to cut programs to the disabled. When the federal Liberals entered power 1993, virtually all education and training resources available at the time were cut in the first Martin budget, erasing a good number of programs that were, to varying degrees, successful in placing disabled persons in gainful employment, through either tax benefits for employers to hire the disabled or through training programs. To date, this money or programs have never been restored.
BTW, the Employment Insurance surplus the federal government is now sitting on stands at 42 billion dollars. They couldn't take a bit to help disabled persons become taxpayers.
Let's talk about the Ontario Progressive Conservatives. In 1995, Mike Harris destroyed the Employment Equity act, claiming on numerous occasions it was "quota" based. It wasn't. This has lead to repeated lies from the Premier and his ministers on when a replacement piece of legislation was coming; to this date, the premier has yet to forward anything to those affect, except a vacuous shell which has no efficacy to support any disabled person's right to work, or supportive housing when necessary.
Both have said to the private sector: you do it.
A good idea in principle; a bad idea in fact. Very few firms, except Meta Prevocational services has stepped forward to provide any real training and placement, but they too complain that budget cuts in disabled programs by government have cut their ability to find work for our handicapped citizens. Most companies, it appears, have no real interest in hiring people they must make adjustments for, especially in a climate where government seems happy to remove the laws that would expose this.
Now charities. Charities are like any other money earning operation: some good, some bad. Clubhouse programs for the mentally ill do have job access and community intergration programs which assist in gaining employment, as does the CNIB, the Canadian Association for the Deaf, among others. They are required by law to give a prospectus on their hiring success, their ratio of amount of donation to amount spent on programs (the law on charities states that 90% must be spent on the programs), and all you must do is ask.
Velvet, to a degree, I agree with you. But when it comes to societal ignorance on how we treat our disabled citizens, there's tons of blame to go around.
Scott
BTW, Alex jay, you're not going to enter the Webderland Park Rotisserie? C'mon Philly Phanatic, Let's get it on. It's free...
>And when a King Lurk starts worrying about how awfully we're treating the bad guys,<
Xanadu, for the second time, if you're going to quote me, use the actual quote. Do NOT misinterpret me, like this above statement.
I don't give a shit about the bad guys. I was trying to discuss answers to the problem that were workable, that could actually be implemented.
If those answers happen to be more compassionate, that reflects our own values as a culture. If you prefer more summary justice, you should consider living in the middle East.
I don't make the rules, nor am I endorsing them. I'm just trying to play by them.
King Lurk
Sad to hear about Chuck Jones. Bugs Bunny has long been my idol.
Rob: To be fair to you, your approach to education sounds better than simply letting these guys rot in jail, then letting them out. If they are going to be released, their time in prison should be rehabilitative, not simply punitive... but that's my basic feeling on prison anyway.
What I'm saying is, why are we letting them out? I'd like to see legislation that puts a convicted molester away for life (I don't believe in the death penalty).
Heather: What makes a child molester? Another child molester. Kids who are molested have a very high chance of becoming molesters themselves, especially when the abuse is never discovered and dealt with. I work with kids, and I used to work in a mental health clinic where about 30% of the clients were abused children in various stages of recovery. These experiences have led to my zero tolerance attitude. I don't know if you've been steeped in a world of damaged children, but it does tend to wipe away some of one's concerns for the feelings of the abusers.
Blaming porn for the problem misses the boat, IMO. Porn is a symptom, not a cause.
Bermanator
Hi Heather! Yes, I'm the one from Mississauga, we've responded to one another a couple of times on and off here. I'm more of a lurker than a regular poster; people here are more well-rounded than I and can post earnestly and at length on a great variety of topics, something I can't really do. (But wish to.) If something catches my eye though, I am overwhelmed by temptation, and find myself "Klik-ing hear, ad-ind koment" as the sign says. Pardon me for quoting at length, but since this isn't a threaded discussion board (yes, one of these days Rick Wyatt is going to go post on all of us webderlanders again for constantly razzing him about this), but it's the only way.
You wrote:
>There is a woman in a wheelchair here at work. We've become >rather friendly. Why? Because she let me and she needed help.
>It bothers me deeply how ready she is to say, "I'm sorry." to >people. She feels -- despite being a student here who is >managing JUST FUCKING FINE, thank you *grin* -- she is
>such a burden to people in some way. Doesn't feel like she >deserves to be there. I keep jollying her (but it's fucking easy >for ME to do that, now AIN'T it? *stern faced*) but it's giving >me food for thought. Damn, we set up systems so less able can >make it in the world, yet, there is an 'unspoken' wavelength >taunting them about being...
>
>alien.
>*sigh*
>It makes me a little angry.
And now, my response:
Welcome to Canada. Particularly any Canadian province where the New Democratic Party is still in power. The NDP - paragons of giving with one hand and taking with the other. (Remember Jane Stewart? She gave money for training programs to people after they had been classified by the welfare system as unemployable. So, all those people were trained, ready, willing, and more than able to work...but stuck with "permanently unemployable" status - fucking NDP.)
Mind you, it's a mental thing, too. Most "disabled" (which I am not, and hope never to become) are indoctrinated very early, especially now, with the "intervention" programs in most public schools in this country, into believing that they are somehow wrong for not wanting to be advocates/social workers/good little gimps/second-class citizens (which they are trained to believe they are, when they really are not), and simply wanting the ups and downs and roller coaster ride of a normal fucking life. Those who do believe they are entitled to the latter are definitely bucking the trend, as a visit to any one of the fine, charitable organizations (Sorry, is that my sarcasm dripping on you? Let me get a towel.), that claim to "help the disadvantaged/disabled/depressed/insert malady here" that exist in this country will prove. When, in reality, the system in this country that the disabled are supposed to accept without question, that is supposedly championing their right, is the very institution that quashes those rights, quite regularly, and on a very consistent basis.
Okay, that's enough of my venom and vitriol. I'm trying to let go of these issues the older I get, but it doesn't seem to work, when it catches my eye.
Velvet
(Bucker of all trends, steadfast ignorer of the "wavelength".)
More saddening is this:
It is a Saturday morning, after a night when I learned that Chuck Jones had died.
It is early. I turn on the television. I flip through all the broadcast channels (got no cable).
I look in the TV listings.
With perhaps one or two exceptions, all the non-overtly educational cartoons on are CRAP (STATIC SHOCK and WINNIE THE POOH ... *maybe* X-Men: Evolution; haven't seen the latter): Badly animated Japanese fads, badly animated slapdash movie tie-ins, badly animated slapdash toy tie-ins ...
AND NO WARNER BROTHERS CARTOONS.
(and they wonder why our children are protoplasmic lumps ...)
Fuck this; I'm going back to bed.
"Hello my baby, hello my darlin', hello my spring-time gaaaal..."
This certainly sucks.
Chuck Jones had an indescribable FEEL to all of his work that his imitators simply could not duplicate. You see one of his cartoons, and BAM, you know it's his. Instant recognition.
I could never really feel much connection to any of the looney Tunes gang, except Wile E. Coyote and his horrendous, never-ending spiral into madness while pursuing that taunting, mocking bastard the Road Runner, not to mention good ol' Taz and his twisted, incomprehensible tantrums. That guy made "PPPCBDBFDHVKCJVKJHGDVKGHDTBBBBTTTTT!!!!!!" a famous quote.
RIP, Chuckster.
"Eh, (munch munch) what's up, d-"
Oh, shut up.
Lynn/Joseph,
I hate to be the bearer of pecksniferish (don't even start on me 'bout spelling that one) type corrections, but...
3Com Park and Candlestick are one and the same. Just the names have been changed. I believe that Lynn is referring to Pacific Bell Park, the new home of the Giants (complete with McCovey Cove, where Barry Bonds seems to drop a lot of long-balls).
-Andrew
John~ That's what immediately came to my mind, except it was the Glass Handed Demons...
L.
Now that you point out Marc Anthony and his kitten (a time-honored staple at our house) and the WB frog, one of my absolute all time favorite tunes, now I'm truly saddened. Our hats off to you, Mr. Jones. Thank you for timeless memories...
L.
Chuck Jones's cartoons were a Saturday morning delight to an otherwise dreary childhood. Get up early get Miami Herald out of yard. Watch WTVJ channel 4 Miami cartoons and never missed Bugs Bunny show!
"Demon with a Glass Glove"
Never pass up a chance to watch old Outer Limits TV shows !
I know many of us are fans of Great Quotes-- I recall reading that Our Illustrious Guest of Honor used to make up Dymo tapes of good quotes, and stick'em up around his desk.
One of the best-known was that sentence of George Santayana's. The Wilson Quarterly, at http://wwics.si.edu/outreach/wq/WQSELECT/SANTA.HTM, has an article about this now-neglected philosopher. Here's a relevant passage:
George Santayana (1863-1952) regarded the world with serene detachment. He savored all the tart ironies and bittersweet paradoxes of existence, and he cheerfully faced up to the futility of human striving. The Spanish-born sage would surely be amused to observe how he is remembered today, almost a half-century after his death. His reputation, such as it now is, rests upon a single sentence, a portentous and wise-sounding (though often misquoted or misused) epigram taken from the middle of a paragraph in one of his philosophical works: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
So memorable has the adage proved that we seem condemned rather to hear it repeated endlessly, in sober op-ed pieces, earnest letters to the editor, and bully pulpits of every sort. But the bare sentence does not do Santayana justice. Those who use it rarely know its source or wonder whether, in taking the words out of context, they have altered their meaning. In the 1905 book Reason in Common Sense , where the words first appeared, Santayana clearly seems less concerned with the "lessons of history" than with the basic preconditions for adult, civilized life:
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience."
The irony of ironies is that 11 words praising the faculty of memory form the principal legacy of an otherwise forgotten man. Though Santayana himself might not have been surprised by this fate, such barren obscurity is not a fit end for one of America´s most subtle and interesting minds.
Speaking as someone who HATES cats, I have to say that the one cartoon character I truly understood, in a real rock-solid way, was Marc Anthony in "Feed the Kitty."
Here's hoping someone'll open Chuck's crypt a hundred years from now, and he'll pop out singin' the Michigan Rag.
As for the great and sublime Jonathan Winters, laugh.com offers a number of his albums for sale. They're also a fine source for Firesign Theatre materials.
Hello, all. We feel we've lost a friend.
Todd: of course, we'd be happy to have you. I'll send an invitation, if Joseph hasn't beaten me to it.
Scotty and I are going to sit up late, and watch cartoons.
Duck Amuck still makes him laugh.
Love all, Melissa
Damn, I curse this existence.
Earlier today, in a moment of levity, I quoted one of my favorite bits from "Duck Amuck", that wonderful 1953 classic pitting Daffy Duck aginst an unseen animator...
Duck Dodgers in the 24th and a Half Century...
Mel's favorite, "Feed the Kitty", where Marc Anthony (a bulldog) goes through one of the most hilarious and touching moments combined as he watches his adored little kitty supposedly turned into a cookie. The look on Marc Anthony's face as he receives the cookie is priceless, and touching.
The "Citizen Kane" of cartoons..."One Froggy Evening"
That hilariously dysfunctional bear family; "My Pa!"
The real Grinch, not that crappy Jim Carrey/Ron Howard knockoff...
I feel terrible, and at the same time smile for the humor he gave to a child who often didn't have much more than the laughs this man created.
Thank You, Charles M. (Chuck) Jones
Scott and Melissa
Lynn,
The park you're thinking of is 3Com, in San Francisco, which is the replacement for Candlestick Park.
Regards,
Joseph
HEATHER: I have only one comment on the excerpt from the Richard Rhodes interview -- read WHY THEY KILL. (obviously, Rhodes was reiterating what he and other folks have said - violence in the media isn't the reason children become violent -- although too much of it, especially in movies and video games, can make them callous). Rhodes (along with the criminologist whose views he espouses, Lonnie Athens), is thoughtful and intelligent man. His books are worth seeking out (I just read a paper, "Global Violence," which he wrote as a speech to give at Columbia -- another fascinating piece involving research done by, among others, folks at the CDC, which links chronic sicknesses -- like heart disease -- to childhood violence...really). Anyway, Heather: fork up a few bucks for the paperback of WHY THEY KILL. It'll be money well spent (or, check a copy out from you local library). And in May, pick up a copy of MASTERS OF DEATH, which makes great use of Athens' violent-socialization theory when examining how the men of Hitler's death squads -- not to mention Hitler and Himmler -- evolved into monsters. -- DTS
Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck fuck. Now another of my icons is gone. A true artist, Mr. Jones. I'll never forget how he made me laugh, taught me more about orchestral music as a child than anyone else, and showed me what comic timing was all about.
Damn it.
I'm going out to raise a glass to Mr. Jones, and Fritz, and Mel.
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn,
I applaud you, and you've inspired me to make the baseball league version for all of participants, with all profits similairly going to KICK. I'll have that up tomorrow.
Regards,
Joseph
My dear Webderlanders:
I hate interrupt all this glorious talk of baseball to pass on some very bad news.
Chuck Jones died tonight at the age of 89. The Minneapolis Star and Tribune reproduced a brief AP note on their website: http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/1644771.html
The news saddens me. Of all the great animators this country has produced, Chuck was, without a doubt, the best. His shorts redefined, alongside those of Tex Avery's, American animation, showing a gleeful, anarchic side that countered much of Disney's cutesy-poo moralistic fables. Another genius is gone; but his work lingers. I still smile with childish glee at some of his best Bugs Bunny (kill the wabbit!), Daffy Duck (Duck Dodgers, anyone?) and even Tom and Jerry shorts.
May he long rest in peace. May he never be forgotten.
Ahh, crap - unconfirmed at the moment - Chuck Jones has died.
OKAY FOLKS!!!! MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!
Joseph it's all your fault. You said Baseball, Cafepress sent me a thing on their limited edition stuff for March, which included a baseball shirt, and off I went.
http://www.cafepress.com/webderland
All profits ($5 per item) will be donated to the KICK Internet Piracy Fund. I suggest you grab the hooded sweatshirts first, as they're going to be going away in March sometime.
I present to you the E that is SSSSSSMOKIN'!!!!
L.
::grinning like an idjit::
Hmmm....
Andrew, lovin' the Jeffty title. That one made me laugh out loud! Howsabout "A Boy And His Hot Dog" (too obvious), Swatterday? (For the Ruth fans out there) The Function of The Seventh Inning Stretch? Paladin of the Lost Gimme That Damn Ball, It's Mine, I Caught It Fair & Square!! And the last one that would really be a zinger if I could remember the name of that stadium where the outfield wall drops off into the Bay. Is it Candlestick? Adrift off the Islet of Candlestick?
I dunno. It's late. I haven't eaten yet. I'm delirious. Yeah, that's it.
L.
In case some of you haven't had the chance to visit this site, I want to point you to Fanfilms.net, where some very impressive shorts are being made by fans of Star Wars.
http://www.theforce.net/theater/
Rabbi Joe, I think there are some vying for Zeb Welles this year.
Have a great weekend.
You know something? When it comes right down to it, you guys are just downright goofy.
(Big f'ing grin)
I hate sports and I'm loving the baseball thread.
Bringing a smile to my face in a shitty week.
Jay
Heather: In response to your numerous comments...
I have an extraordinarily narrow focus on this issue - people who are doing bad things to kids, and those who view the results.
Consenting adults can do whatever the heck they want to with each other and I won't object at all. More power to 'em.
But kids are another realm entirely.
I can't, and won't, sit idylly as society normalizes this behaviour - gives a slap on the wrist to perpetrators and lets 'em back out. Where in a few years they're doing it AGAIN.
This is the world I live in. This is the world we ALL live in. This is what happens EVERY SINGLE DAY.
And it makes me angry. I want to rage at the world, beat the crap outta the bad guys and call out the gods that could allow such monsterous things.
And when a King Lurk starts worrying about how awfully we're treating the bad guys, how we should be more compassionate, how we should see that it's a sickness and it's terrible that someone should be marked forever because they can't distinguish right from wrong.... well, when that happens, you get me for the last few days or so...
I am but one person in the wilderness - I don't expect everyone to agree with me, (in fact, I'd be rather shocked if they ever did), and I freely admit that the position I advocate is an extreme edge to the debate.
I encourage everyone so inclined to donate money to find a cure for these monsters. Maybe someday we'll have the magic bullet that'll fix it all up nice.
Just don't ask me to.
I don't have compassion for this cause.
I cannot accept what's happening - I cannot change it.
So I rage. I advocate harsher penalties. I hope that someday the nightmare will end. And I know that it won't.
Just don't ask me to like it.
I prefer
"The Man Who Rowed Rich Garces Ashore and Now He's in Traction After He Sprained His Back Doing It"
Also:
"The Whimper of Whipped Devil Rays"
"The Man Who Was Heavily Into Ice Cream (part 2 of the Rich Garces series)"
"Cubs Win! and Other Delusions"
"'Take a Damn Walk, Mark Quinn', said the Ticked-Off Fan"
"Bucky Dent Ain't Nothin' But Satan Misspelled (for BoSox fans)"
"The Night of Delicate Errors"
"Bellyache (Part 3 in the Rich Garces series)"
Melissa/Scott,
Any room in the league for a Right-Wing Yankee fan (I guess if I also liked the Cowboys I would be a true enemy of the people...but I loathe them)? Sounds like fun!
-TODD
Nathan Lane? You're kidding?
Yeah, I'll go look it up. I can't remember were I first started noticing him but he's an immense talent. What's he's up to these days.
Jesus...(shakes head)
H
I just read on CINESCAPE Online that UPN has ordered up yet another new version of the TWILIGHT ZONE. Forgot the specifics but go to www.cinescapes.com and follow the link, I guess. Should we keep our fingers crossed?
Also, it's been a good week. Finally got TROUBLEMAKERS the other day and the new, ibooks printing of NIGHT AND THE CITY. I've been looking for Kersh titles in used bookstores for a few years now to no avail. Will be reading NIGHT AND THE CITY right after I finish this little antho I'm reading called DANGEROUS VISIONS, which I was able, somehow, to find in a used bookstore. Are those places treasure chests or what?
Bill
Big Time comedian depressive? Nathan Lane. A few months ago, there was a terrific cover story about him in the New York Times Magazine. Very very sad that such an often wild personality could be so lost. I strongly recommend this article if you can find it and are interested in the subject.
-TODD
Oh, yes. Melissa, I have also gotten just the same kind of scam come-on, the latest incarnation is Dr. Daniel Solglo. I think it's the internet version of a telecom scam that was exposed on 60 minutes about a decade ago.
The middle name of the internet is SCAM.
Washu: "A Shot in the Dark". Oh, yeah. Sellers and Edwards were at the top of their game then, weren't they?
Chuck
Reading an interview on Richard Rhodes and "Why they Kill."
He said this:
"I remember vividly as a child growing up in the 1940s that comic books, which were then quite violent, were considered to be the reason our brains were going to be damaged. Comic books were essentially emasculated in the early '50s for that reason, and obviously that didn't stop violence in young people."
Comments?
H
Heather: Who knows what mischief lurks within an alias...but then, many of us can be mischevious and just full of pee and vinegar when we use our own names. I don't really know who the Grand Mastah H. Salt Esq. is, I just wanted to lighten things up a little. I still have my suspicions, but I'm not bustin' a sweat over it (y'hear, oh Grand Mastah? Chill). I kind of liked your and Lynn's theories, though.
As for Johnathan Winters; yes, he did have many a bout with depression. He even went a little nuts and was hospitalized. I have an album where he joked about it: "I thought I was John Q. From Outer Space. Left the mother ship and they caught me." He has retired, and he writes and paints. He seems more at peace now. From time to time he'll go to the local gas station and from out of nowhere entertain a tourist who a moment before was just pumping gas. He's as good as ever. He was interviewed by Sixty Minutes a few years ago, and Robin Williams dropped in and started improvizing, pretending he was directing the interview, with Winters rolling with it, behaving like a prima donna method actor. The interviewer, Morley Safer I think, never got control back.
Say, since we're on a writer/superhero thread, how about The Specter, written by Michael Moorcock? Huh? Huh?
Chuck
"When it was time to leave the hospital, I put on my Maudie Frickert costume. 'I'm Mrs. Woodrow Wilson! Good luck to all of you!' Shook 'em bad. They didn't know whether to wave or salute." Johnathan Winters
Team name:
We Have A Bat, And We Can Hit
Darryl,
Somehow I missed your post in the all the Baseball hubbub. Regarding the missing girl, Danielle Van Dam; They may have arrested the neighbor, but it's far from over (I'm sorry to say). The parents have a lot to answer for as well. Apparently there were some funny goings on in the Van Dam household (all alleged at this point, but I'm sure some of it is the truth). The saddest thing of all? The girl is probably dead (although they do keep searching). These things rarely have a happy ending.
Yours, in sorrow,
Andrew
Jon,
Howzabout, "Jefty is Five and One With a 2.20 ERA"?
-Andrew
Melissa:
Let's do some guessing here.
I've gotten SIMILAR emails. (This was a while ago. I just delete them as they continue to come.) At first it made no sense to me. So, I dunno..
H
We're Talking Homer, Ozzie and the Straw...:
Well, if you're talking Ellison-themed (if somewhat distorted in most cases) team names:
"Broken Bat"
"Prince Myshkin, and Hold the Bunt"
"With Virgil Oddum at the Foul Pole"
"Rondell White for the Greater Good"
"The Night of Delicate Errors"
"Sally in our Power Alley"
"No Game for Children"
"Rain, Rain Go Away"
"Final Trophy"
"The Pale Silver Dollar of the Moon Pays Its Way and Makes Popcorn, Peanuts, and Crackerjacks"
"The Man Who Rowed Orlando Hernandez Ashore"
Jon
Xanadu:
I dunna much lingo, but wouldn't Masta Salt be referring to his "momma"--meaning GIRLFRIEND?
I could be wrong.
H
Lynn and Peter:
I feel I've resurfaced so late in your dealings on parents, I simply felt like a "me too." But I hope your Dad's okay, Peter.
Speaking of Dads, Lynn, how is your DAD taking all this?
Best thoughts to both -- at the risk of sound lame.
H
P.S. Michael, hope the woman in your life is doing okay as well. The move sounds like a good idea--no matter what the reasoning.
There is a woman in a wheelchair here at work. We've become rather friendly. Why? Because she let me and she needed help.
It bothers me deeply how ready she is to say, "I'm sorry." to people. She feels -- despite being a student here who is managing JUST FUCKING FINE, thank you *grin* -- she is such a burden to people in some way. Doesn't feel like she deserves to be there. I keep jollying her (but it's fucking easy for ME to do that, now AIN'T it? *stern faced*) but it's giving me food for thought. Damn, we set up systems so less able can make it in the world, yet, there is an 'unspoken' wavelength taunting them about being...
alien.
*sigh*
I'm a little angry about this.
H
King Lurk, you said:
"Heather: I've been here for awhile, albeit under a different name. I became an anonymouse because it helps keep me distanced from the often-emotional wranglings of this board."
I'm gonna talk about me for a sec -- if you don't mind -- but it comes back 'round to your comment.
My biggest issue is, the only people in my life to talk to me in a derogatory way, did it to hurt.
I'm trying hard to understand passion versus cruelty. I don't think there's a person on this board who is deliberately cruel.
I used to read a lot of Ellison's rants at people. I didn't understand all the derogatory talk--I'm calling it this for wont of a better word. I realize it's partly his defense mechanism--he's come from this; it's the way he's learned to survive--but I also realize he's just being passionate.
Like the rest of you.
I went off and began to do some hard thinking when Meat pulled the first stunt. (Don't worry, Meat. You and me are fine, dig?) I commented online here on how I came to separate what people THINK of me and what I really am.
And understand the difference.
I'm not a patsy. I'm a bright bitch. But I understand it better.
So I ask you..how do you mean, an alias helps you to separate? They still be yelling at you, so how do you mean?
Just curious.
I'm at a point in my life I want to learn "deeper." If it takes learning some of the lingo/moves to do 'combat' with discussion groups, I'm game.
And also more sure of my beliefs, as a result.
Thanks for reading.
Heather
Heather~ While I agree with you as far as consenting adults are concerned, in the case of child pornography, one cannot consider any sex acts with *children* consensual. There is a *massive* difference. Even VIEWING child porn tacitly condones damaging children. I'm really with Xanadu on this side of the issue, that this is *wrong*. I am however with King Lurk on finding a solution that is less than termination. If a felon forever loses the right to vote, a *convicted* pedophile should forever lose the right to be around children without supervision. If that means quarantined in a special facility until such time as a scientifically proven treatment can be found, then so be it.
L.
Lynn,
I wouldn't dream of riding the coattails of those whiny snakes from Phoenix ::grin::. Horned Lizards was the best I could do under pressure. Although now that you mention it, something Ellisonian like, "The Discarded" might end up being strangely appropriate.
-Andrew
Masta sed:
"I AIN'T SAID SHIT BUT I'M LOUD!"
Oh, god, ain't he cute? *grin* I'm serious. I'm not being sarcastic.
Hey Masta Salt, do you have kids, did you say? What ages?
Heather
One last thing:
Xanadu said:
"And my last questions of this post - WHY can't we all decide that certain perversions are never acceptable? Why can't we draw a line and say "All who cross this, for any reason, are wrong."? Is this freedom? Is there good and value in every human thought or perversion?"
I'm speaking from a great height here--it's always easier to sound so damn glib from a great height or distance on an important issue. Please excuse me. I UNDERSTAND your meaning, Xanadu, don't think I don't. But I toss this out:
UNFORTUNATELY, there is such a thing as two people turning to me and saying, "We're consenting adults. Fuck off."
Therein lies the problem as to one man's meat (literally) being another man's poison.
Interesting discussion. I thank you all for your inputs. (I'm saying this cos sometimes we don't take the time to compliment one another, in this way.)
H
Xanadu:
(Glad to see you posting, by the way.)
First, let me try to be clear here. In terms of your definitions of the acts of porn/child porn etc. .. I agree with your definitions.
Understand that. I honor your thinking. Be clear on that one, honeybun. Dig?
And it's not a case of me being wishy-washy. I do understand what you are saying. On another subject -- yes, apples and potatoes again -- I simply worry about the "murder who is later found innocent" issue or the Meat who is labelled a thief and can't get a damn job because of it (Yes, different intensities. But just as longterm an effect.)
No. Child porn is not as clear cut as a murderer. But, as we have discussed the legal system at length and stared at the loopholes, I worry. I simply worry about one level of response with dealing with what someone or some group defines as a child pornographer. THAT is what worries me.
As you were. And more power to you. I'm glad to hear your views.
Though I still camp in Lurk's team on a lot of this.
Walt Disney, Walt Disney.. Jay mentioned ole Walt.
Am I wrong or did I read somewhere that ole Walt had a few issues with dem black folk? (As in, he didn't allow them, for a time at Disney World or summat?)
Anybody know?
I'd written something else--about "The Fire Next Time" by Baldwin and some interesting analogies I could make to the white man and black man, oppressed and simply man, and woman, oppressed--but some idiot took my computer while I went out of computer eye-shot to check a spelling and he creamed what I'd written.
This room is FILLED with empty computers. (Friday night. Would YOU be in the library? I think not.) Yet somehow, he couldn't seem to notice my coat and bag nearby, nor the fact that the computer was in use--mid-sentence, actually--and he just sat down and did his thing.
*Sigh* Morons.
Heather
Sorry to change the subject back, but...
I note that a little girl went missing in San Diego 3 weeks ago. Neighbor arrested today, girl's blood in his RV, on clothing, etc. Search of domicile revealed child porn. How many more?
Darryl, in a sad place right now.
March 6, 2002, Dan Simmons will be at the Boulder Bookstore. Come along, and join the fun.
Besides, for those with a perverse streak, I will be there. (I will be the one wearing the NY Yankees cap and giving the yuppies on the mall the finger as I enter through the front door.)
Until next time. . .
Oh yes, Peter Sellers...poor dope...there are some celebrities that seem to be natural trouble magnets against their will. Take Roman Polanski, for instance. He's BANNED from an entire country, the poor bastard.
Nevertheless, despite whoever attaches whatever to Mr. Sellers, A SHOT IN THE DARK will remain THE most hilarious gut-busting two hours in my life.
"Could you call a doctor, please?"
"Are you ill?"
"I seemed to have stabbed myself with my letter opener..."
Little Washu
Chuck said:
"The Great Detective leans confidently against the double doors, which, since they are unlatched, open, letting him fall flat on the floor. He jumps up, assuming a faux karate stance and says, "Be on your guard, mesdames et messeurs! I may test you again!"
Actually, let's TALK about Peter Sellers, hmm? I think he was a genius. And yet... the poor guy was so.. unhappy, being .. well, Peter Sellers.
Ain't that weird? Jonathan Winters is another one. How sad. I think he had some kind of depression or something, didn't he? As I recall, I think he dropped out of the picture for a while, because of it, didn't he?
Don't you find that interesting that such personally sad types could be such comic geniuses? _I_ do.
H -- yes, I'm changing the subject. I'm allowed. I paid Rick DUES. He gave me a KEY to the WASHROOM!
Oh, and Rob, I like your "people" plate analogy. Well put.
H
Good point, Jay: (Re: child porn)
"Screenwriters who make fortunes off of slicer movies aren't necessarily homicidal themselves."
Look at Stephen King. Hell, look at Harlan Ellison. These guys aren't creeps. Stepping up to the mike and telling some defined 'group' of people they shouldn't be doing what they are doing, is .. well.. a form of censorship, now isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.. I hear you saying, but what about the kids?
Lemme PUT something to ya: The kids grow up. And become adults. They stop being cute. (Just like the cuties they use in the third world country ads to pull on your heart strings and get you to sponsor a child.)
Let's try looking at this from a broader point. Any BEING.. man, woman, child, adult, senior, WHATEVER.. who is put in a position of discomfort due to another's predilections should be called on it. What that could entail is something as base as a private room for the internet pedophiles at Kwik Copy who need to gawk or licensing/psychology testing professionals of any nature who deal with kids--I'm sure you have some suggestions too.
I mean, we've already LET it get out of hand, in a form...
One example: I'm sorry but I find it kinda creepy that I can see covers of women in states of undress at the convenience store. HOW convenient. (Doesn't a mom and her kids SHOP in a place like that? What's she gonna tell the kid, hmm?) Sure, you say, the guy who buys the mag isn't hurting anyone--99 times out of 100, I bet you are right. But he's also being given an unspoken nod that hey, women are just flesh--okay! maybe just for jerking off purposes but.. hey....hey....and the line moves further and further..and suddenly those mags have got pics of Brooke Shields, all of ten or eleven, was she? playing dressup, oh, she's so cute.. so cute.. so cute..so fuckable.
WHOA. Is that any different from child porn, I ask you, hmm?
This is one slice of many views I have on this matter. I'm tossing it out for ideas sake. Like I said, kids and porn--jesus christ, that's nuts...
But hey, you've already opened the door.. what with Playboy and whatnot.. are you so surprised someone's found the next 'new thing'?
I think Melissa has a point -- unrelated. It starts in the home. You've got to teach your children to respect their minds as WELL as their bodies. I realize we can't do too much with the other fellas kids -- hell, Jay, you couldn't even help some wee tyke in a parking lot; I'm sure his ordeal has just begun -- but if we start.. with just one other person -- be it a son, daughter, niece or nephew.. and the same way we tell them not to talk to strangers, we tell them, "it's YOUR body, value it. And let NO one make you feel bad about what you are."
Sorry, I'm a litte out practice on stuff like this. I promise to be more clear, in future.
Heather
Joseph~ Nah, I think both of them are posers compared to our Grandmasta. They wouldn't know Ellison if he bit 'em on the ass, not that I'd put it past him.
Chris~ I don't know what's worse, that I knew precisely which toon you were talking about or that I didn't catch the reference the first time.
I'm thinkin' Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral of Baseball. (*CRACK* ::gurgle gurgle gurgle:: as the Guardian swishes her lovely tail darting after a long one).
L.
Heather,
Once someone uses the word 'penis' on me I know I'm in trouble. Here, TAKE the Manilow album away AND my box of matches.
Now where's my Penthouse? I gotta go prove something to myself.
(Stop me when I get provincial).
Anyone else have the sneaking suspicion that Grand Masta Salt is the smae guy/gal who writes those Jim Anchower columns for The Onion?
http://www.theonion.com/archive/archive_anchower.html
Or perhaps Herbert Kornfield?
http://www.theonion.com/archive/archive_kornfeld.html
Rob.. Rob..ROB..
You're playing with fire, my friend. Put this idea out of your head:
"Now I'm going off to force that Grand Masta' H. Salt to listen to Barry Manilow albums. I'll turn that guy into a gay honky yet."
In fact, it's been scientifically proven--they used bunnies with that special shade of pink nose--oh, the horror, the horror--and performed actions SIMILAR to the ones you are suggesting.
[Okay, I lied It might have been Garth Brooks or Perry Como--hell, they're ALL white, what's the dif?]
There's too much chance that this kind of indoctrination COULD have lasting effects. Give the man a break. He has a family to support.
I'm sure you know what you are doing, but please, please, I INSIST, be careful. The man DOES have a penis. He KNOWS how to use it.
Heather, rabidly worried for Rob's safety
Lynn: I've amended my team name:
I Have No Bats, And I Must Bunt
"Slide, Dimaggio, Slide!", comes from a Warner Bros. cartoon where Porky, setting up camp beside a lake in a quest for relaaxation, is set upon by Daffy. Porky throws a rock at the duck, and Daffy suddenly produces a catcher' mitt. This starts a fracas resulting in Porky sliding into a mud puddle, as the pig sputters; "Wait a minute, I'm not Dimaggio, my name is mud!".
Hey! Gimme a closeup! A closeup!
This is a closeup?
A CLOSEUP, YA JERK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Ain't I a little stinker?" asks a bemused Scott
Chomsky's "propaganda model" seems to have been vindicated: The Pentagon's Office of Strategic Influence has been found out. The New York Times reported that OSI was going to fabricate news stories to sway foreign sentiment on the war. This shit would even surprise Orwell.
Hey! Keystone City has a long and glorious history of...er...being attacked by silly villains with Cold Guns?
Rich, I am sure that, "the History Channel" is the bermuda triangle of all truth. I never said, Sexton told the whole story, but his behind the scenes story is quite wonderful, and scary. And you never did tell where I had it wrong.
I personally don't think Baseball is violent enough. We need more bloodshed at the sacred diamond.
I am worried that this Daniel Pearl video is going to be pimped onto the major media like a snuff film. Hope not.
Okay, those are some much better names. Pokey Reese, Gookie Dawkins, and Wiki Gonzalez. These are the little details that make baseball less a sport and more a religion. The little things that make me look forward to a summer of baseball.
Oh, and Chris? You think I'm trading ANYTHING with you, you got another think coming! ::grin::
How come nobody else came up with actual team names?
Slide Dimaggio Slide? What kinda team name is that?! Horned Lizards? Not even vaguely Ellisonian! Try to claw your way to victory by riding on the Diamondbacks coattails, wot?
L.
For the record, here's who's started their teams:
Slide DiMaggio Slide, Scott
Keystone City, Joseph
The Glass Handed Demons, Cavalaxis
San Diego Horned Lizards, Andrew
Angry Candy, Chris
Funny - I'm noticing some geographical perculiarities here. It's not that we haven't had characters here with the White Sox and Cubs, but it seems like nicknames aren't that big of a deal here. Offhand, I can only think of a very few (well, there's Larry Bowa, "The Penguin," but that was so obvious it was almost sad).
Regards,
Joseph
Actually, Joseph, I was going that way, but Mel just looked at me like I had a twin growing out of my face.
I've assigned her to read "Grail", and then come back at it.
Lynn and Andrew: Love the name of your team. I'm sort of jealous I hadn't really thought mine through as well.
Ah, the names really tell the age of us. I'm way too young for Pee Wee Reese, but I do dig Pokey...Steve "Psycho" Lyons.
My favorite Blue Jay name was Otto "The Swatto" Velez.
Best Jay Pitcher's Name: Huck Flenner
Of course, Rusty Staub when he played in Montreal; "Le Grande Orange".
Scott "The Big Zamboni" Reeston
You've missed the obvious choice for a gaudy trophy: "True Love." Paste as many geegaws and lacy things on it, slap some horrible pink paint, and it'll be perfect.
Regards,
Joseph
Baseball folks,
All of you have forgotten (or maybe you didn't know), Winkleman "Wiki" Gonzalez, catcher for the Padres.
-Andrew
I object to Pokey Reese on the grounds that no player whose discernible asset is his ability to steal bases should be named Pokey.
However, I do wish he had stayed in Cincy long enough that we could have seen the double play combination of Pokey Reese and Gookie Dawkins.
Bermanator:
Just to clarify...I wasn't trying to say that the recidivism rate for pedophiles is inaccurate. On the contrary, all documentation I have seen indicates that there is very little we can CURRENTLY do with these folks. I was just trying to indicate that the shrug-your-shoulders-whattyagonnadoaboutit attitude is short-sighted. There are many psychological problems that were untreatable fifty years ago, yet today they are treatable.
I'm interested in _Base Instinct_, though, so I'll take a gander at that.
Baseball names:
No one mentioned Pokey Reese?
And how 'bout one of my favorite players from the beleaguered Red Sox: Trot Nixon.
Well, five spots to fill. Not bad, for a first day.
BTW, Mel has sugested that, in lieu of chickening out, she'll buy, or put together a championship award. Nothing major, just something the proud winner can possess and lord over the rest of us, until we find him or her in a dark alley, and rectally insert the trophy in a act of fun-loving revenge.
I'm thinking that'd be cool, but stuck for a name.
I thought of the "Everett C. Marm Championship Award", but it seems a bit long.
Any suggestions?
BTW, Canada 7 - 1 over the Belarusians. Good luck to those just south of us. A Canada/US final would be great.
Scott
Berman,
No, I disagree with that completely; and there's more complexity than that to my "education" concept, anyway (hint: Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow, et al). Again, I'm talking about maladjusted cases not pathological ones. Furthermore, some research down this road IS being done - two good reports I saw on it, one was on 60 Minutes, the other on the History Channel - and inmates, when acquiring new skills, are showing more positive results. But, given the many variables and problems to consider in redrafting a penal code, I'm talking about an aggressive fusion between rigid punishment and learning disciplined skills (I say nothing about going light on them, for instance). Much of it, as I suggested before, being modeled after the principles of the military program. Fuck the nobility bullshit; I'm not trying to be moral or humanistic, I'm being practical so long as we're talking about goons due for an eventual release. I'm not even inferring they'd be entirely readjusted...for some that may well be impossible; but for a greater number of ex-cons adaptability to the world outside those walls would have far better chances over the likelihood of recidivism.
As with healthcare, the penal system certainly isn't working as it IS.
I don't know if this was mentioned here or not but the news issue of Pages, the March/April issue features as its second cover story: "The Copyright Fight: Harlan Ellison vs. AOL."
It's a 4 page article with several picture of our patron author and Goliath-killer.
-chris
It's a great baseball name when you see that lanky freak throwing a 95 mph curve ball at you from 60'6" away.
Okay, so it's not Whitey Ford....
Her's some better ones:
Benny Agbayani
Dusty Allen
Harold Baines
Willie Bloomquist
Jose Canseco
Valerio de los Santos
The Encarnacions
Chuck Finley
Andres "Big Cat" Galaragga
Frank "Big Hurt" Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Shigetoshi Hasegawa
Now those are some good names! I just think you're being a little harsh on the younger players...
Joseph
Lynn,
Don't sweat it. I have been playing roto baseball since before most people heard of the Internet and I can tell you that in a league with both an automated draft and drawing from a very large pool (all major league players) the playing field is evened out dramatically between experts and novices. I know baseball like only a handful of people around know it and I would have no confidence in my ability to draft a better team than you would under these conditions so you can feel very confident. Honestly, you could probably use the rankings they provide and draft a solid team.
Of course, during the season, I'll kick your ass by working the waiver wire and ripping you off in some killer trades but that's a different story. :)
Despite the weather here in Bermuda being sunny and dry today, the house suffered a sudden bizarre power shortage which left me with nothing but my library to seek solace in. I picked up a book I haven't read again for a LOOOOOOOONG time; MICROCOSMIC TALES, an anthology of 'quickie' snippets of science fiction from all sorts of masters. Accidentally came across Harlan's HADJ, an intriguing little tale with Harlan's take on the long-cherished idea of 'first contact'. Needless to say, the very last line is hilarious...don't want to give it away here for those who haven't read it (Shame!). It's similar to the wonderful 'IT'S A COOKBOOK!' shocker from THE TWILIGHT ZONE, in that it completely and utterly deflates Man's ego like a carnival balloon with one tiny pin-prock.
POP! PPPPbbbbbbbbbbbbttttttttttttt............
By the way, here's my take on ye superheroes of olde for your personal amusement:
The Incredible Hulk by Robert Louis Stevenson (THAT was easy...)
Captain America by Jonathan Swift
Doc Savage by Charles Kingsley
The Adventures of Tintin by Todd McFarlane
Wonder Woman by Virginia Woolf
That's about it. My basset hound has tipped over the trash again...gotta run.
Little Washu
Good baseball names? I got yer good baseball names.
Pork Chop Pough (pronounced 'pew')
Rusty Kuntz (he claims it's pronounced Koontz but we know better)
"Ugly" Dickshot (I didn't make that up)
Heinie Groh
Heinie Manush
Razor Shines
Arlie "The Freshest Man on Earth" Latham
Tony "The Apollo of the Box" Mullane
Bob "Death to Flying Things" Ferguson
Today's good baseball names? We don't have good nicknames anymore except The Big Hurt but we have good names.
Nick Bierbrodt
Nick Neugebauer
Hiram Bocachica
Frankie Menechino
And, the best,
Stubby Clapp
Joseph~
I live in Los Angeles. Do you know how many Carlos Penas and Pedro Rodriguezes I could meet in a single day? And Curt Schilling? I think he works in our accounting section! Puh-lease! Randy Johnson! You think that's a COLORFUL baseball name?!
::sigh:: This is gonna be a long season, I can see it coming.
L.
Rick~
I'm bursting with anticipation over here. Can I share the smoking E? Please?!
L.
Lynn,
That's fine, but I prefer a mop.
It's like 'What Dreams May Come' all over again.
Lynn; a month to put your sheet together. It gets easier as it goes along.
BTW, remember "Boog" Powell, Yaz, Orlando Cepeda, the Spaceman, the Mad Hungarian, Tug McGraw, Gaylord Perry, Lefty Carlton, the Ryan Express, Terrific Tom, Coco Laboy?
I agree; everyone today sounds so antiseptic, without character.
Scott, humming "Take Me Out to the Ballgame"
Lynn,
Here's a few:
Carlos Pena
Sammy Sosa
Jose Valentin
Jason Giambi
Moises Alou
Barry Bonds
Randy Johnson
Curt Schilling
Pedro Martinez
What-his-name Batista
Now those are some damn fine baseball names.
Regards,
Joseph
Hi ho, all. The streets here are virtually empty, all the restaurants are full, my kids were even given the choice of whether they wanted to watch the game at home or at school.
We're a pathetic country, tis true.
So Mel has shown me up, and gotten the fantasy league off the ground. She's made damn sure I know about it too.
Bit surprised though: Bermanator isn't wanting to play? it is free, no cost to compete.
Now, regarding the Green Lantern oath. I was always under the impression that the "brightest day, blackest night" version was Bester's although when asked, he denied it.
Thanks, Joseph for the incarnations of the oath; I wasn't sure of Perdoo's version, was trying to recall it.
Curling? I've talked to the lady, and she wants to wait to join a club. I do enjoy watching it though. The strategy is fantastic.
Still, to be called by the Watchers so the Universe; Raker Qarrigat has nothing on mestates a slightly miffed Scott
Okay - I have a MONTH to research this whole draft thing, yes? Rank my players, scrutinize spring training (and not just for the men in uniform).
Is it just me or is there a startling deficiency of classic baseball like names? I see a few that fit the bill: Junior Spivey, Roosevelt Brown. But Kazuhisa Ishii? Whatever happened to names like Rollie Fingers? Sparky Anderson? Yogi Berra? Sandi Koufax? Just a few that I can remember, but you know what I mean.
(Trivia: I didn't know Matt McConaughey played baseball...
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/McPhee_Bid.htm)
You guys are gonna be the death o'me.
L.
PS. Hey Rob! It's a dead dog. Here's your broom.
Melissa,
I actually picked up a bunch of the basics from ESPN.com, which had some wonderful Flash demos of the Winter Olympic sports. Great idea on their part.
Regards,
Joseph
Two items, one sucky, one interesting:
Sucky: Tom Shaw, of "Inspector Morse" fame, has died of throat cancer at 60.
Interesting: Sean Connery is supposedly going to play Allan Quartermain in an adaptation of "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen."
Joseph:
That's from Scotty's days at Blue Jay games, and that dammed astroturf. I'm not as big a fan as Scotty, but I agree: baseball should be played on grass. Period.
As for curling, it's been a bit of a letdown for the women's side. Losing to the Brits hit Canada's team pretty hard. I find the more I watch it, the more I like. Scotty gets the strategy more than I do, but I've been studying on-line a bit, and I'm starting to really understand it.
For you, try this site:
www.usacurl.org
It should help whet your appetite a bit.
Well, Scotty's home. A bad bout of Men's Olympic Hockey flu. Appears Danny and Joel came down with it too.
I'll tell him to stop in.
Love Yas, Mel
Rob: It doesn't work. Some things, once broken, cannot be fixed. Lack of education is not the problem. They know it's wrong but they can't help themselves. It's a compulsion and it doesn't go away. Rehabilitation is a noble goal but saving children from convicted abusers is nobler.
Bermanator
"Nice scoop off the carpet"?
Is this a curling thing?
Seriously, I've become addicted to watching curling now. Sadly, it was only shown on CNBC here, so I have to bum off friends or go to bars (though it's hilarious trying to explain to friends what you want to watch, until they start getting sucked in - I've talked to more people in Chicago who are getting hooked on curling in the past week).
Regards,
Joseph
Rich: I say that the urge to molest children is untreatable because the recidivism rate is extremely high with all forms of attempted rehabilitation. I have already posted a statistical citation and URL that you can use to check my facts if you like.
A book I highly recommend is _Base Instinct_ by Dr. Jonathan Pincus, Chair Emeritus of the Deparment of Neurology at Georgetown. He formulated a theory about what causes a person to become a serial killer or mass murderer. According to his studies, a nexus of neurological disturbance (ie, head trauma), childhood abuse, and predisposition to psychiatric illness contribute to this. The crucial component seems to be child abuse. Though he obviously has compassion for the children these people were, victims of horrendous abuse (be warned that there are graphic descriptions of this abuse), Pincus also does not believe that these people can be cured. By the time they are committing these crimes, their personalities are so damaged and warped by the abuse that they cannot be repaired.
Of course pedophilia is not mass murder; however, it ruins a life just the same, and perpetuates the damage across generations. The way to prevent child abuse is to TAKE THE ABUSERS AWAY FROM THE CHILDREN. Is that hard to understand?
If 42% of black men can be incarcerated in this country at some point in their lives, why can't we incarcerate all the convicted child abusers? Because we find room in the prisons for the people we want to disenfranchise, right? Building more prisons is not a problem, clearly. It's the failure to take this issue seriously that's the problem.
Bermanator
Just one quick follow-up on my Berman post: I realize the prisons do provide classes for inmates. But they are optional not mandatory. I don't think they should have ANY choice in the matter. Education - from the ground up - should be a solid round-the-clock process. THAT should be their punishment - a pragmatic one - instead of just a cage and a billy club with a brainless mouth behind it.
Just wanted to be clear on that detail.
By all means Andrew, do join.
By the way, Joseph, as Scotty would say, Nice scoop off the carpet...
If you have any trouble, Andrew, email me.
That'll make five spots left.
Love, Melissa
Joseph: Thanks...
-Andrew
Andrew,
I took the liberty of sending you an invite to the league.
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn,
My best to your mom.
Berman,
"Do you guys understand that a person who desires to have sex with children and acts on that desire most likely will continue to do so as long as he can, whether he serves his time in prison or not? The urge to molest children is a nearly incurable problem with the psychological make-up of the person."
Yup. Absolutely. And no penal system we have is geared or sophisticated enough to deal with it. Even for those just maladjusted, the whole concept of closing a human being in a cage, abusing the shit out of him...then RELEASING him all but renforces every trait of negative behavior he ever had.
As the concept of prison is based on complete break down of the spirit, unlike the military it has no sequential phase of rebuilding one; a reconditioning process. If these are guys who are coming back out eventually, I want them to have a more balacned self-image and job skills. In the prisons, after a while inmates can go off and do what the want - I mean like lift weights, watch the tube, etc. Instead, rather than using isolation and primitive brutality, they should be forced - with a militaristic timetable, to take classes and learn from the ground up. The penal system, in my view, should be integrated with an education agenda; in effect, the prisons should be schools. Guys with life sentences is one thing; but if we're talking about guys due for a release I want them to be self-sufficient, with a newly developed sense of responsibility.
The psychology of closing people away - and with guards as fucked up and stupid as they are - has never worked; never. It only worsens their fucked up behavior. But the penal system - the justice system - remains blind to this fact, a stupid, cumbersome, apathetic entity anesthetized by bureaucratic policy.
And where does such ineffective machinery leave the sick people? From pedophiles who can't stop the impulses they feel to severe drug addicts (some being more genetically inclined to addition than others) like Robert Downey who I think should be left as he is (with SOME monitoring; he WAS found sleeping in a neighbor's house). The concept of therapy seems completely absent. The Justice system is an aged entity and has far to go in its modernization.
Oooh, that's a nice feature - you can set up your priorites by position in the draft.
Melissa,
Can I join too? Can I, huh? Please, please, please...
-Andrew
Chris:
An invitation's been sent.
Six spots remain. I wonder if the good Mr. Ellison considers pitting his baseball acumen up against the pups?
Love and Luck to ya, Melissa
Lynn,
This looks to be a good mid-range league, so you can vary your level of involvement. Feel free to e-mail me with any specific questions. But please, do set up a team.
Regards,
Joseph
Well, let's see, I've only got a dozen or so leagues this year so I'm definitely looking for another one. :) I'll e-mail you.
I'd request that we make it a live draft if possible or at least conduct the draft by e-mail on our own instead of just having the computer pick from our pre-ranked lists. But if that's not possible for everyone, that's cool. I hate the automated drafts but for the sake of proving I am the king of Webderland, I could deal with it.
I'd also rather we did an NL only or AL only instead of mixed league but... I'm sorry. I'm a roto junkie and stuck up. Ignore me and let's just have a fun league. Thanks for setting it up. :)
Well, to save on any potential conflict of interest, i will not join. I've talked to my Papa, and he said it would be unfair to have two teams in the same household. I want to be fair to you guys, and besides, I'm not really any good...
Chickening out, Melissa
I am thinking, however, of making or buying a trophy. Scotty suggests the name "The Everett C. Marm Championship Award"
Who the hell is Everett C. Marm?
ROFLMAO. You guys, I'm SO in over my head with this. Draft pics? Rankings? RBI, ERA, %'s, and then I have to worry about Injured Reserve lists!!! This is gonna be so much fun!
That repeated thud you hear is me banging my head on the desk, muttering 'Why, dear lord, why?'
::grin::
L.
I'm all set up in the league. Bring it on.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph and Lynn:
Already finished, your invitations are on the way. You should receive them by email shortly.
I've put the league in Scotty's name. I'm not taking responsibility for any of this.
Try this:
At www. cbs.sportsline.com
League Name: Webderland Park
Straight rotisserie
Mixed (both AL and NL rosters)
Automatic Draft - March 27th, 2002
There are still six seats available, for anyone crazy enough to think this a good idea. I read that the top three persons from all the leagues combined get cash prizes. I know, it's a long shot, still...
Don't worry, I've got the password. Any problems, email me at entropy_5ca@yahoo.ca, or Scotty's at moebiuslooped@yahoo.ca
Love and Luck to all, Melissa
ALL: Don't mean to interrupt the current "thread" of conversation, but I wanted to tell you about a couple of books. In '99, Richard Rhodes wrote a FASCINATING book, WHY THEY KILL, that took criminologist Lonnie Athen's violent-socialization theory and, held it up against human history (even mentioning, in part, the recent spate of teenage violence) and showed why it was a model to which our country (and many others) should pay attention. It's a great book (out in paperback, now) and I urge you folks to grab a copy. What brought this back to mind is that Rhodes' new book, MASTERS OF DEATH:The Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust, will be out in May from Knopf. Once again, Rhodes uses Athens' theory in examining the men of Hitler's Einsatzgruppen -- death squads that were used to "dispatch" civilians by firing squad (or a pistol to the head). Rhodes shows how such people (the kind that can indiscriminately kill other humans -- one survivor recounts how a group of boyscouts were lined up against a wall and shot to death). But eventually, even those monstrous sorts were demoralized (to some degree) by the constant flow of blood. Thos complaints led to the "invention" of the Holocaust: ovens, gas vans, death camps, etc. I'm half-way through the book. It's scary. But enlightening.
Not a light-hearted subject, I know. But an interesting one. After reading WHY THEY KILL, I discovered I was a third-stage product of the violentization process. Nothing to brag about, I assure you. If mothers and fathers everywhere would pick up a copy of WHY THEY KILL, and learn more about Athens' theory, I think humans might actually begin to act more civilized.
BY THE WAY:
Bradbury would've created and written "Deadman" (the circus; a ghost who can manipulate bodies, as Cecy, in FROM THE DUST RETURNED, does); or, perhaps, "The Spectre."
And "The Demon" and Harlan Ellison seem like a natural pairing.
-- DTS
Melissa~ Thanks to the Meats for your kind thoughts. All of you.
And if I had to express a preference, automated draft please... seeing as I'm gonna lose my shirt anyway on this one. (Anyone want to recommend players I should snatch up? Since my Nolie isn't playing anymore?)
L.
Jay:
Ray Bradbury was Scotty's choice for Ghost Rider too. He mentioned the title "Something Wicked this Way Comes", and it clicked immediately
Now as for Superman, I chose Fitzgerald due to two things: "The Great Gatsby" and F. Scott's quote: Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.
I find similarities (and I must admit there are some) between a boy from a a far off planet who must hide his true identity to stay within his adopted world, and a man who re-invents himself in order to reclaim a love he believed he'd always had.
I guess there was always in the comic an implied acceptance that Kent/Superman would ultimately triumph, but it would've been interesting to see what Fitzgerald would do with the Lane/Kent/Superman triangle.
Alan,
Thanks for the info on the GL and the GL Corps. Interesting stuff.
Hamilton writing Hulk? Heh. Heh heh heh. BWAAHAHAHAHAHA! That's so strangely perfect....
By the by, if there is an award for grace under the pressure of dealing with slightly...odd fans, Ms. Hamilton wins. Saw a panel of hers at last years Dragon*Con, and simply one of the nicest people you could imagine. Very friendly, very funny (especially when talking about some of the odd offers she's had from readers who don't quite separate the author from the story).
Melissa,
Please, do go ahead and set it up. As for the draft, I recommend an automated draft. Somehow, the thought of trying to gather a group of us together at one time chills my blood...
Regards,
Joseph
Oh, and thanks Alex Jay.
Jon
Green Lantern:
Come to think of it, there's a Green Lantern restaurant in this very city...
And of course -- John Broome, not Gardner Fox.
Alan Moore's oath for the hereditarily blind Green Lantern who lives on a planet devoid of light is pretty good, too (I think the translation for 'Green Lantern' that Moore comes up for in the situation is 'B-Flat Bell' or 'E-Flat Bell'. Katma Tui [?] spends much of the story logicking out the name, the oath, and a few other things for the new GL).
Oh, that Alan Moore and his wacky additions to the Green Lantern mythos.
Jon
Joseph:
If you like, I can set it up. Scotty has a funny way of getting these things wrong, so once I finish lunch wih Cassie, I'll set it up.
He wants to do it free, so that it's no pressure, and private, so you can all rub my face in my lack of rotisserie knowledge.
As for Green lantern, you're talking about Scotty's favorite. He's trying to get the kids to memorize the oath.
Does everyone want a live draft, or an automated one?
Melissa
JON: Bester took over the reins of Green Lantern Comics in the early Forties, not that long after Mart Nodell and Bill Finger created the character.
Here's the deal: Bester's break-in short story was supposedly the winner of a contest sponsored by the editor of one of the pulps, THRILLING WONDER STORIES. That editor was Mort Weisinger, who liked Bester's story so much upon reading it that he decided to announce a contest to boost circulation, but Bester's was fixed as the one that would win.
(At the same time in '39, a retired military man read that magazine with the contest announcement, and though he thought of entering the contest [as he fancied himself something of a writer], he then looked at ASTOUNDNG, edited by John W Campbell, Jr., and realized after some quick mathematics that if he submitted there rather than to THRILLING's "contest", he could make double the money. He submitted it, and it was published.
That budding writer's name? Robert Anson Heinlein.)
A few years later, Mort Weisinger was co-editor of All American Comics (later to be DC Comics) and needed some new writers. He thought of his discovery, who was now married and in need of a regular job to supplement his income from story sales. After a tryout short comic story ("Genius Jones, the Human Encyclopedia), Weisinger offered Bester the reins of the just-created Green Lantern Comics (which itself was originally created to draw on the success of Superman. All the other companies were doing Superman knockoffs, so they figured, why not at their own company?).
Bester did that for a year--and yes; he created the oath of the Golden Age GL, which is slightly different from the modern; just look at Gully Foyle's doggerel from THE STARS MY DESTINATION, and you can tell it's the same writer--then entered Julie Schwartz. Schwartz, in an interesting turn, had been convinced to sign on to All American as an editor by Bester, whom had had Schwartz as his literaray agent. Schwartz needed a new writer when Bester went on to write radio scripts instead of comics, so he decided another of his clients would fit the bill: He asked Henry Kuttner.
Who refused.
But Kuttner was finally swayed by one thing: His wife and collaborator C.L. Moore had read the sample issues of GL that Schwartz had dropped off, and had gone crazy for GL's picturesque cabbie sidekick, Doiby Dickles. She convinced him to sign on.
Anyway. As to your Lensmen/GL Corps question. It doesn't apply. The Guardians and the GL Corps were not founded until Green Lantern was revamped in 1957 by Gil Kane and John Broome.
And as for interesting writerly-comic pairings:
The Silver Surfer by Ted Sturgeon (or in a pinch, Umberto Eco).
Evil Ernie by John Shirley
Daredevil by Yukio Mishima
The Incredible Hulk by Laurell K. Hamilton (if only to see what weird "relationship" issues she provides Bruce and Betty)
Doctor Strange by Manly Wade Wellman
The Punisher by Andrew Vachss
The Mighty Thor by Fritz Leiber
Swamp Thing by Clive Barker
Green Lantern by Winsor McCay
Deathlok by Neal Stephenson
The Rocketeer by Stuart Kaminsky
Hawk & Dove by William F. Buckley and Michael Kinsley
Cable by Rudy Rucker
Superman by Robert Bly
Warlord by Michael Moorcock
Killraven (the apocalyptic Seventies version; not the British Eighties one) by Harlan Ellison
The Flash by Richard Matheson
Andrew, Lynn, Scott & Melissa,
Let's go with Scott's sportsline.com league. Looks like they have a better set-up over there. May we trust you, Scott, with being the Grand Poobah of this little game?
As for the Green Lantern oaths, there's a wonderfully exhaustive page on the Oath at glcorps.org. Here's what they have to say about some of the important Oaths and who wrote them:
"And I shall shed my light over dark evil,
For the dark things cannot stand the light,
the light of the Green Lantern!"
-Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Lantern
[ALL-AMERICAN # 16, Martin Nodell, Bill Finger]
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
no evil shall escape my sight!
Let those who worship evil's might,
beware my power.. Green Lantern's light!"
-Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Lantern
[1943, credited to Alfred Bester]
-Hal Jordan of Earth
[SHOWCASE # 22]
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
all evil shall escape my sight!
Let those who worship evil's might,
fear not my power... Green Lantern's light!"
-Hal Jordan
[GL2 # 13, John Broome]
(Hal was controlled by the Spectarns, an evil alien race)
"When day is bright...
...or is it night?
No... ah...
...something or other
will escape my sight...
...let those who...who...
Let all those looking for a fight...
...something something something...
Green Lantern's light."
-Perdoo of Qualar IV
[GLA # 5, Len Wein]
(a confused variation of Hal Jordan's oath)
"The true creator of Hal's oath remains debatable. I've read references crediting science fiction novelist Alfred Bester as the oath's author, but I've also read he denied writing it."
For more info, take a look at http://www.glcorps.org/oa-oath.html
Regards,
Joseph
Oh no... I am SO looking forward to this movie. I truly hope they don't screw it up by continuing down this path...
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/354226p1.html
Melissa -
I get a letter like that every week, nearly identical, from a different address. Something about I get to launder someone's blood money for a cut to help starving alien babies on Planet Mongo...
Usual crap.
Okay... on the much brighter and happier subject of comics (I've got a convention to visit tomorrow with my son and I'm looking forward to turning him onto some of the greats):
Questions:
Robert Bloch: Flash Comics? He did this??? When?
Melissa had the most marquee-friendly list:
"Batman by Mickey Spillane"
THAT would be interesting. I'm curious how he would provide Batman's dialogue..if he would speak at all.
"The Incredible Hulk by Victor Hugo"
I may not have enough money to raise him from the dead, but it would be worth the effort to see that.
"Superman by F. Scott Fitzgerald"
Holy SPIT! I gotta ask why. Raises some interesting possibilities, but I gotta know your reason for this one.
"Doctor Strange by Fritz Leiber (I thought of this from "Gonna Roll The Bones")"
I was thinking Anne Rice, but that's also quite intriguing.
"The Shadow by Robert Ludlum"
Intrigue and espionage over lurking and chuckling...nice.
"Ghost Rider By Steven King"
Nod. I was thinking Ray Bradbury or Ellison with a nice twisted Carnival/Sideshow atmosphere.
Mine -
Captain America - Tom Clancy
Superman - Michael Crichton (Larry Niven writing Action Comics)
Iron Man - William Gibson
Batman - Elmore Leonard
Thor - Robert E. Howard
Wonder Woman - Jean Auel
Hulk - Mary Shelley
Green Lantern - Douglas Adams
Spiderman - Brian Michael Bendis (I love this guy's work with the Spider)
Flash - Joss Whedon
Spawn - Clive Barker
Ghost Rider - Ray Bradbury or Ellison
Dr. Strange - Anne Rice
Det. Jon Jones: Martian Manhunter - Peter David
Punisher - Mark Millar
JLA - Alan Moore
Fantastic Four - J. Michael Straczynski
Hellblazer - Hunter Thompson (circa 1972)
Just lightening the mood a bit.
Melissa - actually, look it up under the "Nigerian Scam" this is a variant...
Tom: You aren't the only one disgusted with the NBC coverage. Only occasionally do they actually flash a disclaimer regarding the recorded nature of their coverage (here on the west coast). The other thing that has me pissed off, has been their weekend broadcasts. Nothing live at all. CNBC (where they've shown most of the live hockey) has been nothing but infommercials and NBC is about the same. CBS always did a much better job. Of course maybe I'm ranting because they don't show enough of the sliding sports (luge, bobsled, etc.).
Joseph: Count me in for the sandbox league. My email (as always) is at the top of this post.
Lynn: Glad to hear that your Mom is recovering nicely. Before you know it she'll be kickin' proverbial butt with that surgically repaired knee. When does she start seeing the physical torturist?
Melissa: That email that Scott received is spam. I've gotten it myself (and several others which are very similar). It is a HUGE scam. As far as how Scott got on their list, most likely it's because of your email provider. If Yahoo is anything like Hotmail, it's not difficult for shady groups to get hold of your address. Something I do to help weed out the crap is to give everyone my Hotmail address (when I order something online for example) and give out a private email address to folks who I know and trust. Cuts down the stress on my personal inbox by quite a lot.
-Andrew
Xanadu:
I'd thought as much, but thanks for the info.
Still, it was nice for a second, thinking the husband was making millions...
Love, Melissa
Further thought on this ECOWAS thing. My not knowing what to do stems from it being either a prank, or a scam.
If it's a prank, it's easy enough to ignore; if it's a scam, to get account information, or credit data, well, that's a horse of a different colour.
Love, Melissa
Melissa - It's a known scam - an email letter that gets sent out to thousands, if not millions of email addresses - check out
www.snopes2.com
and look up the guy's name - they have the whole lowdown.
Hell, I've gotten at least four seperate versions of the letter myself...
First of all: Lynn. Glad to hear that your mother's alright. Any time a loved one needs surgery, it's hairy.
Now, get this:
I check Scotty's email for him; we do get order info for books and some from friends that we both know, and Scotty gets a doozy.
A gent calling himself Mr. James Ibe, Chairman of the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) would like to enter into a mutual partnership with Scotty, giving my husband $10,000,000.00US into our personal bank account.
This is no lie, I'm not making this up. How they got Scotty's email address I haven't a clue, but it goes on to say they would like to pursue the partnership, giving Scotty 30% of the money to hold it for them.
Here's where it gets good. Here's where the money, if it exists, came from:
"This fund was a residue of the over invoiced contract
bills awarded by us for the supply of ammunitions,
hard/soft wares,phamaceauticals/medical items,light
and heavy duty vehicles, apperals and other
administrative logistics etc for the ECOMOG in
Sierria-Leone and Liberia during the Peace Keeping
Projects."
Now, I've checked, and this organization exists. I don't, however, know quite what to do with this.
Still, that man of mine has some explaining to do. Here I am, livng a comfortable life, and he's getting rich by trade deals in Africa, and I'm not even a part of it.
Love all, Melissa
Re: Peter's Bloomsbury Review comments, "Hard Truths & Sage Advice".
For those that are interested, the back issues are for sale.
http://www.bookforum.com/bloomsbury/backissues.htm
rich: we're saying it, because it's the truth. And I will deal with immediate realities - not "hope" - in this particular arena.
Heather wrote:
I don't think it's right to carve him a letter.
My question: How many kids do you have?
I don't get people not getting this. It has everthing to do with protecting the innocent. Once society KNOWS who the child molester IS, society has the responsibility to protect those who may become future victims.
Don't get me wrong here-- the POTENTIAL offender should have the information up front. You do this and we will mark you for life, we won't have you in our neighborhoods or hire you for our jobs. You will NEVER live a normal life any more than the child you put your hands on will.
Lurk,
regarding your statement that the day will never come when child molesters are put away for life or exterminated for the greater good-- I disagree. I live in Texas and it is entirely do-able. I promise you there isn't one legislator in Austin who would want to be on a list of congressmen who voted down getting child molesters off the street permanently.
Anybody think the 3 strikes law in California has been a large factor in the decline in crime nationwide?
Cindy
Grand Masta: Get back to us about livin' large when you've moved outta yo momma's house.
King Lurk: If my position on swift and terrible punishment is perhaps the most desirible. Why the heck is a bad thing to lobby for, even if they won't pass it?
Lynn: Damn. Sorry about missing your post completely - I've been a little distracted, please accept my mea culpa and hopes that your mother makes a swift and complete recovery.
Not touching the child porn debate because the points I agree with have been made and it now has become the snake eating its tail. The only thing I would say is that I am a bit surprised at the way some folks are saying that this perversion is untreatable and there's nothing we can do about it. This coming from a group of intelligent folks who read speculative fiction and who believe (I think) that to say "What If?" is a noble effort. To say there's nothing that can be done other than to dispose of the body goes against what we've done in psychological and medical breakthroughs and sells us short. You or I may not know how to treat this perversion, but I don't think that should stop us from funding or helping others explore "cures".
And that's all I gotta say 'bout that. Rage on.
Frank:
Don't you get tired of being wrong all the time? That article you posted concerning a speech by Sexton leaves out some important facts. But, you probably knew that. FYI: There's a good documentary of what went wrong in Somalia that was shown on the History Channel a few weeks ago. It is not a movie; that would be fiction. It is a documentary. Pretty good one, too.
Scott:
I'm intrigued by your Silver Surfer by Norman Mailer thought. Now, that would be something; no more whining and hand-wringing for that guy.
The Unpleasant stuff:
Lurk, Xanadu, Jay, PAB, Heather, others:
OK, way back somewhere in this thread on child pornography, I thought there was some reference to the fact that most child sexual abuse occurs not at the hands of internet-empowered stalkers, but at the hands of family members and friends of the family.
Child porn's monstrous. But the focus on it (and on the internet in general) strikes me as a diversion of resources away from going after the larger pool of abusers. That doesn't mean one doesn't worry about -- or monitor -- certain electronic activities under certain circumstances. But the media coverage, and the attendant creation of police positions devoted to cruising chat rooms et al., strikes me as being a way, well-intentioned or not, to avoid thinking and dealing with abusers as anything other than absolutely other: road-show Moriarties spinning their webs somewhere away from the home, rather than Uncle Morty who everyone covers for because it doesn't happen *here.*
Jon
Comics:
Alex Jay -- You're sort of preaching to the choir, but the list brought up a couple of things.
1) Alfred Bester wrote for the Golden Age Green Lantern. OK, which oath did he create -- the "In brightest day, in blackest night" or "...for the dark things cannot stand the light"? Or both? And did Bester have anything to do with the creation of the Silver Age Green Lantern? As far I understand Bester's career, he was out of comics and genre publishing by the time the Fox/Kane GL and the Corps made their appearance, but I've seen "Bester created the GL Corps" trotted out as an explanation for why EE Smith never complained about the similiarities between Lensmen and the GL Corps, a claim that doesn't make any sense to me on a number of levels.
2) Why doesn't DC have the sense to release the Captain Marvel stories of the 1940s (many of them written by Otto Binder) in an inexpensive, child-targetted format? They're fine works of superhero fantasy. You'd think someone would realize there's more of value in the catalogues of the two majors than simply collector's editions and character copyrights, but given how long it took for even a *Plastic Man* archives to appear, I ain't holding my breath.
3) The first comic book novel is generally considered to be George Lowther's (sic?) Superman novel from the early 1940s. But leaving Big Little Books aside, what's the second?
TTFN,
Jon
King - and exactly how is your oh-so-specific desire to find the root causes any MORE realistic?
I've drawn my line - it's a valid position in this discussion. The fact that you disagree with it, the fact that most here disagree with it, doesn't change that.
There is a real and present danger here - even if we can accomplish what you want (and I do believe it's pie-in-the-sky), it'll take years, if not generations before it works - what the heck do we do until then?
Alex Jay--minor correction. If I recall a'right, Bradbury never wrote for EC Comics. Rather, EC appropriated a couple of his stories, and then he contacted them. They then cut a deal to adapt more of Bradbury's work. Incidently, I remember that there is a questionable "unofficial" adaptation of "The Cold Equations" in an EC skiffy comic, too. They were usually original at EC, but they had their lapses.
Peter--good luck with your father and the insurance companies. I just went through similar tsouris for two years. Spend a lot of time with your dad now, Peter. You won't regret it.
--Alex
Heather: I've been here for awhile, albeit under a different name. I became an anonymouse because it helps keep me distanced from the often-emotional wranglings of this board.
King Lurk
Grand Masta:
It's getting old.
>My statement regarding swift, certain and terrible punishment IS a realistic position, guys. <
No, it's not. It's perhaps the most desirable position. But you ain't gonna get it passed, Xanadu. Walk into your local house of representatives and try to get that on the books. "Swift, certain, and terrible punishment." Won't happen. Let's not even venture into the heirarchy of the heinous...as others have already pointed out, there are too many levels of perversion to name, some more savage than others, and each is going to require a separate legal consequence.
Xanadu, you need to stop wishing and start strategizing. There's a big difference. No-one here wants child molesters walking the planet, and we'd all love to just make them all go away. But that's for a short story, not for real life. You standing up at the town meeting shouting "grind them into chum!" is not helping the problem, it's just confounding it.
King Lurk
Yo, yo, yo, 'sup 'sup 'sup?!?!?! Check this shit out motha fucka's!!!!!!! AIIIYYEEE?!!?!?!
It be da Grand Masta steppin' back out ta say nuthin bout nuthin', but I gots myself a lots o'time since mah mom took mah fuckin' car keys and shit. Dat bitch is whack, nowhamsayin'??? If she wasn't bangin' my homies fo' crack I be so outta here.
Y'all be talkin' and usin words an shit, but I aint hearin that cuz the Grand Masta be louda and mo wide open than y'all's momma's at a whorehouse. I gots one hand on da keys and one on da masta's puddy, whackin and yackin large Es-to tha-Q-to tha U-I-R-E. When y'all stop talkin about that shit, yo?
I'M LOUD YO! Didja hear me? I AIN'T SAID SHIT BUT I'M LOUD! An' anuther thing. FUCK SPELLCHECK, YO! I ain't been outside mah momma's house since dat man next door set his big fuckin rotty on my ass. I gets ma Taco Bell delivery knowhutahmsayin? aight aight?
KNOCK IT OFF, YO! CAN'T YOU SEE I'M ANGRY!? Tha Granmasta ain't gots time fo yo love.
Bitch.
God, I'm starting to hate this topic. But since it continues to be discussed, I will continue to represent the extreme out here.
Here are what I would think most people would accept as the "levels" of CP involvement:
One - people who actually do children, who film or photograph it. These are really bad folk - I think we all agree on that. Most are not willing to go as far as I would in punishing them, fine - we're a free society, this is a Good Thing.
Two - people who pay for pictures of CP, or trade them like baseball cards in secret internet "clubs" are also pretty bad - though I'm getting a sense that more of you are starting to drop out here. My question to those is this: what's different? Those monsters are are also trading in the destruction of children. In fact, they are usually paying money for the privilege. It IS illegal - again - why are we waffling on this? WHY do you insist on splitting that hair?
Three - people who only look at the "pretty pictures", they don't collect them and they don't pay for access. This is the moral morass most of you seem to be getting caught in. They haven't "done anything" wrong, so what's the problem? My answer is see two, above. But - for these guys, I'd probably settle for removing them from society and children completely.
Four - those who only partake of "legal art", or only live within a fantasy world of their own creation. It's legal - there's nothing anyone can do except to attempt to make the art illegal, too.
Now, to address Heather's point regarding the "scarlet letter". You see guys, THAT is the current state of compromise between my position, Jay and Bermanator's position, and the All-The-Way-To-The-Left position of King Lurk. Even if we use the "childfucker's" own propaganda - THEY claim there is a ONLY a 13 to 22 percent recidivism rate in the first four to five years after release. According to their own stats, one out of eight to one out of five of the fuckers will do it again, regardless of the treatments applied. THAT is why they ALL wear the "scarlet letter".
The reason I target those that I do is because, like most of you, I'm not a mind reader. I cannot look into someone's thoughts and know their heart. I don't even want to. But, once they act, once we catch them in the act - you better believe I suggest we do something permanent about it.
And now King Lurk's point regarding: If we could only find/prevent the causes, we could stop it before it happens. Is this a realistic position? Really? Perversion will find an expression no matter what we do to prevent it. I'm not against looking for the root causes, but I'll be damned if our inability to identify them at this moment is gonna slow down the punishment of the known bad guys.
My statement regarding swift, certain and terrible punishment IS a realistic position, guys. We may disagree with the severity of the punishment, but this is proven gameplan.
And my last questions of this post - WHY can't we all decide that certain perversions are never acceptable? Why can't we draw a line and say "All who cross this, for any reason, are wrong."? Is this freedom? Is there good and value in every human thought or perversion?
Do you guys understand that a person who desires to have sex with children and acts on that desire most likely will continue to do so as long as he can, whether he serves his time in prison or not? The urge to molest children is a nearly incurable problem with the psychological make-up of the person. It's not simply an action, like stealing a car. Not remotely comparable. It's a way of life that screws up little kids permanently. That is not a moral judgement, it's a matter of fact.
You'd quarantine someone who has a deadly disease, wouldn't you? People who have uncontrollable urges to abuse children will always be dangerous and should be quarantined as well. It's not simply a matter of punishing them, and once they are punished, letting them go. That does not solve the problem AT ALL.
If labelling someone a child molester within the community is scapegoating, then I assume you'd have no problem with your next door neighbor, unbeknownst to you, being a proven and convicted child rapist. If so, you are a better man than I.
Bermanator
JON, SCOTT:
A partial list of genre writers who have written for mainstream comics--and note that half of these were regular gigs, not just fill-ins:
Alfred Bester, Ted Sturgeon, Eando Binder, Henry Kuttner, C.L. Moore, Larry Niven: Green Lantern (it should be noted that Bester wrote the now-familiar Green Lantern Oath, and that Niven wrote the story bible for Green Lantern in the Eighties)
Manly Wade Wellman: The Spirit
Chip Delaney: Wonder Woman
Otto Binder by himself (as opposed to as half of "Eando Binder" with his brother Earl: Captain Marvel, Superman
Ray Bradbury: Various EC Comics
Robert Bloch: Flash Comics
Max Allan Collins: Batman, Ms. Tree
Greg Rucka: Batman, Elektra, Black Widow
Rachel Pollack: Doom Patrol
Caitlin R. Kiernan: Sandman Presents: Lucifer
Brad Meltzer is to be the new writer of Green Arrow
Robert Weinberg: Cable
Edmond Hamilton: Mystery in Space, Space Adventures
And the list, as they say, goes on.
Another trend is the growing number of comic-book writers who turn novelists. From Stan Lee and the late Gil Kane through Elliott S! Maggin and Denny O'Neil to Grant Morrison, Peter David, et cetera.
Back when our occasional poster Paul T. Riddell edited the web exclusive portion of SciFiNow.com, the website of the Sci-Fi Channel's magazine, I did what I think is a pretty good article on this very subject.
PORN AND FREE SPEECH: The Sharpe case sickened me. Likely, the stories the guy wrote would have sickened me as well--but the guy was channelling unhealthy urges into a healthy pursuit, one which satisfied him so that he didn't have to go OUT and be a childfucker! It disgusts me that he was taken in by the Thought Police for this. Same goes for the Mike Diana case.
Paging Winston Smith ...
Heather,
"I am assuming you were enough your own person BEFORE you had that altercation with Ellison. So continue to BE the person you were beforehand."
Welllllll....in the fast food hang-out of nature versus nurture you have yer plate of self-efficacy, confidence in yer own capabilities. And then - and then over here y'have yer plate of self-actualization, yer process of fulfilling self potential, continual reshaping of the Self, by selectively overcoming "stimulus control" from environment...in effect, acknowledging what we are: a collective mass of conditioned stimulai from the day we were born (meaning we CANNOT always discern things as they really are).
While hopefully avoiding terminal indegestion from those two plates, with all the MSG Nature throws in, you can remain your own person but still have the cognizance and humility and maturity to change, in effect CREATING your environment rather than environment creating you. This is a dynamic inherent in our species...when we have the wisdom to allow it.
BTW, your post a ways back on the Pedophile Turnpike was the best I've seen from you here. That was good, and I agree with you.
Now I'm going off to force that Grand Masta' H. Salt to listen to Barry Manilow albums. I'll turn that guy into a gay honky yet.
PLEASE IGNORE PREVIOUS ANNOUNCEMENT. THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE (HE WISHES TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS; LET'S JUST CALL HIM SCOTT) SCREWED UP AND SOMEHOW BLEW UP THE LEAGUE. PLEASE CHECK BACK TOMORROW WHEN INSOMNIA AND A LACK OF GOOD SENSE WILL NOT BE FACTORS IN ANY FURTHER ATTEMPTS.
YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO RUNNING WITH SCISSORS.
Sorry about this, Scott
Alex Jay, Lynn, Cindy, Xanadu, Todd, Jay, Chuck, others:
Thanks all for your concern, thoughts, and questions. The legal option is still out there (had we not gotten our first lawyer, some draconian 1 year statute of limitation would have severed that option) it's just a matter of finding a lawyer and the energy to pursue this case.
Todd: No, they didn't inform him that angioplasty had higher risks with diabetic patients and was not a recommended option. We only found this out through our own research later.
Cindy: These doctors needed their heads surgically removed from their asses. They were convinced that patients just didn't know what was wrong with their bodies... that was what doctors were for.
Someone wondered if this had been done at a VA hospital. It wasn't, as I said. But one of the options my parents are looking at for my dad is access to the VA hospital in Palo Alto (he served in the navy in the early sixties) and the Stanford doctors that practice there.
---Peter
NOT SO IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT, PLEASE STOP RUNNING WITH SCISSORS!!!!!!!!!
It might the the insomnia, but, god help me, I've set up a fantasy baseball league at sportsline.com.
Here are the details:
Ellison Invitational
Private League
Live Draft - Straight Rotisserie
Mixed (Both AL and NL players)
Free league, just for fun and competition
Draft to be held at 7PM EST, Mar. 28
One space reserved for Joseph (should he want to join): all others interested please email me at:
moebiuslooped@yahoo.ca
Scott
De-Lurking to vent:
I don't know how many of you are watching any of the Olympics, but I want to tell you how much tonights NBC broadcast pissed me off. I knew NBC wouldn't start until 7:30 so I checked CNBC. They had been showing Hockey and Curling before the main NBC broadcast. Tonight they showed the US-Canada womens hockey game for the gold. I watched and saw the outcome.
When NBC started their broadcast to those of us in Pacific Standard Time (PST) they said they would bring us the womens hockey game live. I looked for a disclaimer somewhere on the screen and found none, though I knew the result was already known. Then they started to show the last half of the 3rd period as if it were live. I again looked for any message on the screen saying it was a re-broadcast and found none. In fact the word "Live" appeard in the corner of the screen often.
My point is that NBC blatantly lied about whether they were showing events live. And some of us caught on.
Yo, yo, yo, 'sup 'sup 'sup?!?!?! Check this shit out motha fucka's!!!!!!! AIIIYYEEE?!!?!?!
Well well well, da masta steps out fo a bit and there's all this talk about child pornography and shit...
Salt ain't gonna TOUCH DAT wif a ten foot nothin. You all just poppin' caps in a dead whitey wif THIS discussion, yo. But dat ain't different from what y'all normally do, so I's gonna shut up 'bout that.
But for all you suckas wonderin who the hell da Grand Masta' is - this ain't no trippin' ALIAS. Fo' the LAST TIME -- I is who I IS, bitch and there ain't no other Masta Salt!
Tho, I IS touched you spend so much of yo' free time thinkin' of da Masta. 'Cause he sho as hell don't spend anytime thinkin' bout you.
Glad to see the wannabe Ellison writin' stopped, tho. Shit.
Warmest Regards,
Grand Masta' H. Salt, Esq.
To all and sundry who give a rat's ass, my mom was doing fine when I met her coming out of recovery. Morphine is a *good* thing. I don't think I've seen her that happy and bubbly in awhile. Then again, with new parts and no complications, she's looking at a whole new range of mobility (hopefully - this is Lynn with all her fingers and toes crossed) and she does best when focusing on the hard stuff. And there was some sort of gawd awful PT machine already strapped to the foot of her bed, so the hard stuff is already starting. I'll probably go back and see her again on Saturday. Is it wrong to be proud of your Mom?
Chuck~ I think the Grand Masta is none other than Marshall Wyatt himself. I mean, look how smooooooth he comes on when he's smackin' us down. Otherwise, he doesn't get to play at all. I'm just sorry I didn't think of it first!
L.
Hey Rick...
Any hope of getting Ugly baby stories posted in the contributions section?
Chris,
I don't know where that line is. I honestly don't. I don't think anyone can say on behalf of society where it is. For I know what makes me sick and outrages me. And I know, as King Lurk wisely states, there is a legal and moral reality to face.
I know there is intent to gratify one's own pleasure without having to harm others. Shooting automatic weapons at targets to release aggression vs. tearing up passers-by...I know the parallel can be drawn. Jerking off to pictures of butchered meat doesn't mean the guy's not a vegetarian. Screenwriters who make fortunes off of slicer movies aren't necessarily homicidal themselves.
So I think I'm stating what I feel for the purpose of soliciting some alternative points of view, something that makes sense beyond "kill the fuckers, castrate them and sling their balls by rope over the streetlights at First and Main." Intellectual provocation seems to be the best way to get the best feedback.
I don't know if that makes much sense, Chris. I hope it does.
Chris L. --
I think you're discussing Canada's Sharpe case. A decent starting point is below (there are thousands of articles on it, but this at least gives you the names to search for articles et al.) --
http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/2001/doc_25855.html
Jon
Jay,
I still have to ask where do we draw the line?
Do they think bookstores should stop carrying photography books with images of naked children? I don't doubt that at least in most of those cases, the photographer really is taking the pictures for "art's sake." And the pictures are legal. I believe they cannot show genitalia or any lewd poses.
But even these legal "art" photos are undoubtedly used as jerk-off material by pedophiles. Is that enough reason to make them illegal? Or might we have an interest in providing these "safer" legal outlets for pedophiles who might otherwise be more likely to buy or look at kiddie porn (clearly a crime) or to even molest children?
I know there has been discussion about digital art. It is illegal to even make up completely fake images of child porn. In other words, there's no real child involved at all - it's just a digital image. Should that be illegal or not?
I read about a case where a man was arrested because he was foudn in possession of a book containing his own stories about raping children and other such fantasies. Now I gotta think there was more to the case but that was all I heard. Personally, I don't see how we can justify arresting that man - he wasn't charged with anything other than writing down his fantasies, as sick as they were.
So where do we draw the line?
WASHU!
I posed the idea that I am now defacto king of the universe and am a lame-brained producer of comics who wants ideas for recreating comic book icons. (You see, I want to capitalize on the name recognition, but reinvent them so I can claim they are mine in some way....like Disney does)
So I asked the Webderlanders who they would pick to recreate and write the great comics heroes of our time...authors and creators of speculative fiction, but as you see they've gone outside the box and delivered some really fucking amazing ideas.
Yours?
Heather,
That's "yarmulke," which is the Yiddish word. "Kippah" is the Hebrew.
Regards,
Joseph
Damn it, Heather... you bring up another good point...
The justice system assumes you do time in prison to pay for a crime. If the system feels someone is a danger to society, why do they put him on the street and destroy any chance he or she has of becoming a decent citizen by strapping a "scarlet letter" on their forehead? If they are a danger, the sentence should be extended. Do the time, get released, the system has done its job. If the system HASN'T then what business does it have releasing them to the general public and calling attention to a POSSIBLE problem?
I knew I'd get myself back into this. Sorry, folks. Please: Pass over if you're tired of the whole evil thread.
If a man just watches snuff, or kiddie porn, or beastiality, or whatever, is he a monster as much as a man who commits such acts? I say, not so much a monster as say a goblin is to a shoggoth, but...well, here's where it all falls apart. Those maggots from NAMBLA, or - as Alex Jay so well places them - "childfuckers - rate pretty high. So the guy I put in prison, looking at and getting pleasure from the sight of a 9 year old showering alone unaware a camera is on him - do I take off a few years because it wasn't an 8 year old strapped to a table being physically abused? Do I take into account that some of the art depicted photomanips of little kids as "cupids" with wings and harps?
BTW, Alex - PERFECT definition. "the definition of a paedophile is "one who loves children." Well, *I* love children; they're great. But a molester does not love his target/victim, no matter what the NAMBLA fuckwads say. It is a crime of power and pain; of fucking both physical and emotional." I may disagree with you about the impact of child porn, but the point is - only those who seek control and power do this. There is no romance here. No consent. It's assault, on an innocent because the sick coward doesn't even have the threadbare strength of character to take out his sickness on someone who could defend him or herself. The problem is, I've also ralized that these people are weak-willed, submissive, passive-aggressive types who, when put into prison are victimized, but who accept the abuse as a regular course of their lives. Then, when they proudly announce they've learned their lesson, project that pent up aggression on more kids upon release.
In my exploration of this, the sites that offer kiddie porn also delve into other taboos, catering to the worst of us. They offer paid live conversations with "barely teen" girls and boys, and offer access to gigs of media. Granted it's mostly repeated and stolen material, but it's a source nonetheless. Beasts, bimbos, boys and bodies...fun stuff, let me tell you.
King Lurk:
You make some damn good points. Bravo.
H
Okay, I'm being simplistic but
"Do the crime, face the punishment." That's fine. I can SEE that, in terms of any 'societally' named crime and criminal. (Damn, someone made a good point about the rules on all this porn stuff in places like Sweden..)
But on other levels, I agree with Lurk. No man lives in a vacuum. I listen to the stories y'all are currently telling about creeps and how they've treated their kids. THEY didn't ask to be brought into such a world. THEY didn't ask to resort to fighting in the schoolyard with the creep calling them shorty and fagboy (Yes, I'm mixing my what-fors but I have real issue with creating scapecoats to alleviate other people's guilt.)
I saw a recent article in the local paper. They were advertising some pedophile or child abuser's release from prison. (He did the crime. He's done the time. So has a car thief.)
I don't think it's right to carve him a letter.
Yeah, *sigh*, there are a HELL of a lot more aspects to it than this but let's keep in mind, this issue is incendiary BECAUSE it's to do with child abuse of a neanderthal nature. I can dig this. I'd be on a perp in a second, if I could intervene.
But until it's all sorted out.. I have a REAL issue (hear me, Scott? I heard YOUR guilt on an old matter and I don't think that's fair for YOU.. though I'm comparing apples and dinosaurs here, not to worry.)
with people as scapegoats.
Night t'all.
Heather
Howdy.
Wow, either I've been missing one helluva thread, or I'm discovering the TRUE origins of those fabulous men in tights! THE INCREDIBLE HULK by Victor Hugo? THE SHADOW by Robert Ludlum? Did Stan Lee write WAR & PEACE now? WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?!
Seriously though, there's what looks like a fun game going on, and I'd love to learn about it. What's it all about?
Still little, still Washu.
OKAY JAY, GIMME A BREAK!
RE: your photo album:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1334162602
I took one look at this picture and went into a spasm of laughing and coughing and coughing..
DAMN YOU!
Heather
Melissa:
Did you say your kids are into any kinds of sports? Are they hockey players?
I don't have a t.v. so all I'm hearing is from others on this Olympic turn. I simply rah rah when I hear about women athletes doing so well. Cool.
H
Hello;
Well, I'm obviously pleased with the outcome, but feeling a bit cheated by the American ref. She made a good game out of what could've been a great one. Scotty speaks for me; these are two very talented, skilled teams; please ref, put the whistle away, and let them give us a show!
My congratultions to the US women.
Now, I'm not much for superheroes, but I'll give it a try.
Batman by Mickey Spillane
The Incredible Hulk by Victor Hugo
Superman by F. Scott Fitzgerald
Doctor Strange by Fritz Leiber (I thought of this from "Gonna Roll The Bones")
The Shadow by Robert Ludlum
Ghost Rider By Steven King
Love to all, Melissa
Dear The Cowled Diocesan:
Maybe it was just my mood--I was just coming out of visual mode from writing my wee bit and your thots on the Mastah Fish and Chips made me laugh. I could SEE you leaning on that out door.
Just keep moving, you'll be fine.
Oh and I think yer wrong.._I_ think..(she says, looking around the room) it's..
LOFTUS!
Have you seen the pictures of him? He ain't no dude from England, in a kilt, as I first supposed from his speaking manner and his Loftus moniker. (Think Professor Loftus from that Brit doctor series--I forget the name--"Doctor in the House"? They were med students. He was their superior/prof.)
I think it's Loftus. Look at all that reading he does. He could EASILY pick up the lingo. And that manly man aftershave tone Masta Piss and Vinegar invokes. Hell, Loftus has been INTERVIEWING people.
Right? Am I right? Come on Loftus, fess up.
Heather, no sleuth, just the truth.
Hey Peter,
Sounds to me like the bottom line here is:
"They don't believe him when he expresses concern about an infection, so they ship him back home."
They blew him off,sending him home with an infection cooking in a system that was already reeling.
They SENT him HOME!
If they had halted the progression of the infection early the whole thing could have ended differently.
I get so angry when I think of people sent home from the hospital because their coverage is limited or the HMO doesn't want any "extra" days.
If the doctors advised your father to have the angioplasty and, as you stated, it is standard knowledge that angioplasty is not a viable option for diabetic patients then again the doctors are still responsible-- they are paid to know what they're talking about.
I wonder what state you're in. I bet there is an ambulance chaser around there someplace that would jump all over this like an owl on a rabbit.
I'd sure love to see your father not have to worry any more. He shouldn't have to-- they did this to him.
Cindy
David: I'd STILL be interested in any suggestions on books on editing copy. Thanks.
And Tom Robbins. Oh. I've heard of "Only Cowgirls.."
Has anyone read any Douglas Coupland? He's a bit of a whacko but I find his characters rather interesting.
Oh, yeah, King Lurk: just a question... How long have you lurked here at Ellisonville? Just curious.
Cindy: Not to worry about your musings on how I spent my moolah.
I DID buy a dead animal with my mad money. Didn't cost much. Bought it on sale at the "Pets were Us" superstore, down at the big box mall on Grant. He WAS mad before he died so the "mad money" aspect seemed apropos.
And oh yeah, you can't keep waving that email address of yours without telling me about it. Yes, Indiana Jones. Yes. I remember once saying that to an ex-boyfriend--"I don't want to be MARRIED to Indiana Jones, I want to BE Indiana Jones."
Okay, so Harrison Ford is old and I got over all that stuff--though it was damn fun at the time but..
May I hear YOUR little tale on the matter? Hmm? When you have a moment...
Story, Brief...
There was a guy in a yamaka (is that how it's spelled?) who went through cash today with his coffee and bicie and didn't pay.
My cohort--the younger girl, bit of a people snob--oh hell, she's young, maybe she'll grow out of it--sidled up to me and whispered, "Did that guy pay?"
I turned around to look and saw it was that older gentleman I've seen come through numerous times. I think he's a prof. Older gent. Marvellous greying beard. Marvellous features. Very dignified. Cool, is what I'm saying. He wears a yamaka and I think he wears a medallion of some religious matter as well. I dunno; he just hit me the right way from word go.
So.. to have my cohort suggesting this guy was pilfering.. made me laugh. I said, "HE wouldn't do that. HE'S RELIGIOUS." (Yes, I know that sounds dumb. You hadda be there.)
Anyway, she's pulling the usual bullshit ("Well, let's watch him. ...see what he does..") I didn't watch. *laugh* He could HAVE the damn coffee, as far as I was concerned. I'm sure in some way, we OWED him.
Apparently, he walked halfway down the aisle to the exit door and stopped, pondered a moment, and headed back to the cash register. My cohort took him.
"Oops, sorry," he said. "I wandered in here and my mind was on other things--contemplating a lecture I'm working on. I forgot to pay." (I was laughing by this time, listening to the conversation.) I said, "Well, it's just as well. We were gonna send the dogs after you."
"As well you should," he said. "BIG ones."
Peter: My thoughts go out to you and your dad. My stepfather was the recipient of a botched bypass surgery in the 80's. Reduced his heart capacity to 35%. His heart kept running, but not for more than a year. The state of Missouri has malpractice all sewn up, as I understand it. Plaitiffs can't get any access at all to a hospital's records. Damn quacks couldn't find the damn artery. I hope there can be some peace or good fortune for you both.
Webderlanders: I suppose you're all wondering why I gathered you all here today in the main parlour. Oh, very well, you were here already. I have been puzzling for a little while over the identity of a periodic poster who goes by the nom de keyboard of Grand Masta H. Salt Esq. I have analyzed the name, his subject matter, including advice on suject matter for the board, on writing, etc. I believe I have solved this little mystery. I have concluded that the Grand Masta is none other than....
A hush sweeps over the parlour.
Harlan Ellison!
The Great Detective looks over the crowd of astonished faces with satisfaction.
Near the back a voice says, "What a git!"
The Great Detective leans confidently against the double doors, which, since they are unlatched, open, letting him fall flat on the floor. He jumps up, assuming a faux karate stance and says, "Be on your guard, mesdames et messeurs! I may test you again!"
He then saunters out to his Renault, hoping Kato doesn't ambush him on the way.
The Cowled Diocesan
Hockey but mainly Explanations for Jay:
Well, now that Canada has defeated both the Americans and the American referee (my father and I agreed on the phone afterwards that the only similar refereeing we'd seen was in high school football), a few notes on comic book heroes:
John Varley on X-Men?: Made sense, given the interest in Varley's work in changed human beings.
Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle on Superman?: Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" would be one impetus; Niven and Pournelle's interests in heroes and in rationally derived scientific explanations would be interesting if applied to creating a quasi-justifiable Superman.
Joe Lansdale on Batman?: His fine Batman novel *Captured by the Engines* and his short story featuring Batman vs. the God of the Razor were one reason; his splatterpunk work and comics work in general were the other.
Lawrence Block on Batman in Detective Comics?: Block's Matt Scudder series is my favourite contemporary hardboiled detective series, and Block has, I think, also written Batman in short story form.
Joanna Russ on Wonder Woman?: Well, if Wonder Woman came from Whileaway...
William Gibson and Bruce Sterling on Metal Men?: I think this one's obvious.
Ursula LeGuin on Justice League (now known as the Cooperation League)?: OK, maybe it's a joke, but given the geopolitical concerns of Grant Morrison's work on JLA (and Ellis's play with similar stuff in Authority), why not go all the way and have the creator of the societies of LHD and the Dispossessed explain how a world with several hundred superheroes might work?
James Blaylock on Justice Society?: The master of arcana and steampunk giving us the 30s and 40s adventures of the Justice Society?
Harlan Ellison on Freelance and Nelvana of the Northern Lights?: Given Harlan's introduction to *Canuck Comics*, I thought it'd be neat.
Poul Anderson on the Mighty Thor?: Again, obvious -- The Broken Sword alone qualifies Anderson, and the writer of Tau Zero could certainly reconcile the Norse and super-science mishmash of Thor into something even more splendiferous than it already often was under Lee/Kirby and Simonson.
EE Smith on Green Lantern?: One word: Lensmen.
Eando Binder on the Incredible Hulk?: Two words: Adam Link.
Jorge Luis Borges on the Doom Patrol?: Given Morrison and Pollak's forays into metatext and pomodom with the team, Borges seems like a natural.
Lester Dent on Superman?: Two words: Doc Savage.
Walter Gibson on Batman? Two words: The Shadow. Also, Gibson did a prose Batman piece for a Batman comic in the 70s or early 80s.
L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt on Sandman?: Given the historical, literary and mythic play found in the Harold Shea series (and in the fiction and non-fiction works of both men), the Sandman could provide a worthy canvas for them.
Robert Bloch on Hellblazer?: I think the pinnacle of modern horror writers could work some interesting things out of Constantine. Maybe he and Richard Matheson could trade off on storylines.
A.E. Van Vogt on X-Men?: Slan, super-science, a wild idea every sentence or two. The Phoenix saga over in one issue, "Days of Future Past" done in eight pages, bam bam bam!
Theodore Sturgeon on Swamp Thing?: Sturgeon is Swampy's grandfather anyway (Sturgeon's story "It" through The Heap to Swamp Thing); no one bested Sturgeon in wringing insight, heartbreak and compassion out of even the most superficially horrifying or grotesque situations.
I avoided those writers who'd done significant amounts of work in comics (Bester and Hamilton), although using Eando Binder fudges this a bit, given Otto Binder's extensive work in comics.
Cheers,
Jon
Scott:
Oh NO. You lie! I was Salaak of Slyggia.
And I slobbered green tea with the Pasha of Pandua.
Back to your dog basket, Meaty bone.
Heather
Joseph;
My commendations on your grace in loss, it was a game that would've been even more enjoyable if the referee would've put her whistle away and let them play. All the stoppages cut into the American speed game as well as the Canadians.
All the same, hearty congrats to the US women's team. Mel and Danny both sent emails to the US women; they are respected in this house.
I'm rubbing my hands at the possiblity of a repeat in the men's side.
Jay; Hmmmm...Dodds or Daniel? Well, I know of Dodds, but I was thinking more of the Morpheus angle. Would seen a better fit with Poe's laudanum induced prose.
Still been thinking about the Lantern Corps, in the capable hands of Phil Dick...the Book of Oa taking on more of a feel of VALIS...
"In brightest day, In blackest night..."
Scott, formerly Salaak of Slyggia.
Lynn: Good point, Cavalaxis (and I've always liked that name--real definitions of it be damned. It's very lyrical. Such as you.) Name thyself, Washu, and be done with it. But don't do it to hide out from a minor faux pas between you and Ellison. That issue is over and done with.
I am assuming you were enough your own person BEFORE you had that altercation with Ellison. So continue to BE the person you were beforehand.
Rob? Am I right?
Heather
Ah, yes, child porn; that was it.
I can walk into my local convenience store and see one whole section out of four with men's and gay men's (usually) magazines. I'm betting the guy who runs the convenience store makes a nice little profit. (ie. Middleman with nothing to do with its production, okay?)
The internet is the ultimate in convenience store mentality. All some guys NEEDS is a webspace and virtual bookstand and away he goes. Of COURSE you're gonna have umpteen child porn or porn or whatever on the web. SOMEBODY'S looking at it--just like somebody's looking at all those men's magazines offline. (And I ask the question again, howcum I don't see WOMEN'S magazines of this nature -- women's porn; are women not interested in getting aroused looking at naked men and reading the related stories?)
Let's never MIND the completely adult video store. At the risk of stirring this up again, what makes you so surprised this is OUT there? It was OUT there -- in printed and online video fashion ages ago.
I guess I just get a little concerned with the concept of throwing out the internet baby with the bathwater.
The internet has a hell of a lot of potential. Can we talk about some of that instead of JUST the bad aspects? Hmm? (Hey all you systems people. Can you think of one great advantage you've gain by being able to access someone at the tip of Spain with a new idea for a fizzybog or summat?)
Must we spend our days in dread and dissection?
OH, I'VE GOT ONE. You got to talk to a man named Ellison.
Hmmmmm?
Heather
Little Washu~
The power is in the name. Name thyself. And be done with it.
Signed,
CAVALAXIS.
aka L. (the real alias)
Heather.
I REALLY am not looking for a fight here, but all of a sudden your tone has taken on one of...dare I say it...hostility? Why? How exactly have I provoked you?
As long as you're 'suggesting' such terms as 'silly' and 'adolescent,' fine. But kindly don't accuse me of hiding from Mr. Ellison. Apparently my mistake was being honest and stating that it WAS me in my first post after my tiff with Harlan. If I had begun entirely new -without revealing my previous identity AT ALL- I might have been better off, or so you imply. It would have been a lie, but it would have been safer, now, wouldn't it?
I should've used an alias from the beginning, okay, message taken, WHOOPS, my boo-boo. I am not as gifted with wordplay and sarcasm as you are. I don't 'suggest' anything.
As for getting into self-induced situatiosn, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But they're never exactly unprovoked.
Little Washu (and proud of it.)
mah...hit return or summat..
as I was saying..
I think Stephen King may go the way of essays. What do you think of THAT idea?
Such as Ellison did.. Ellison got more into speaking his mind on things versus ONLY writing fiction. I think King's a smart boy. He's in a catbird seat in terms of the audience he might capture. Maybe he'll try his hand at more essays. Didn't he do an essay on Dillinger or someone like that recently in the New Yorker? I may have my dates wrong. I was perusing magazines a little while ago and I THINK I saw him in a recent issue.
Heather
Screw Olympic hockey....how about that Glutton Bowl on Fox!
Never saw anyone eat an entire hunk of tongue before. Now THAT'S talent.
-TODD
Loftus, David:
I won't give up on Calvino. I'd actually started into him by reading "Six Memos for the Millenium," I think it was. It was a non-fiction piece. He had some interesting ideas and it set me in search of some of the other authors he mentioned.
I really had no clue what Calvino would be about. My friend had he thinking he wrote poetry, at first. I haven't found any of that yet. (Or does he DO poetry?)
What amazes is how profilic he was. That's for sure. And you are right. He has some interesting stories to tell. I'll give him a shot again later. Maybe I'll try that book of fairytales (Italian, I think it was) I saw in the library the other day.
As for Stephen King (remember, I'm rather NEW
And the crowd goes wild in Canada!
Damn good team, Melissa and Scott. Perfect play by every woman on that team. Congratulations!
Regards,
Joseph
And the crowd goes wild in Canada!
Damn good team, Melissa and Scott. Perfect play by every woman on that team. Congratulations!
Regards,
Joseph
Melissa: I can completely respect your need to teach your children well. Youngsters are sometimes simply too young to know what and what not to say to people -- online OR offline.
In idle chatter, I've asked many people from where they hail. Never seemed a big issue as we were all pleased as punch to realize we were dealing with people from around the world. Maybe that's simply MY view of what the internet is there for.
When I hear from someone, such as you, though, who hesitates doing so, it hits me more as being a tad paranoid. Just my view.
The world is filled with enough things to worry about. I don't feel the need to add paranoia to my worldview.
The internet is an interesting tool -- just like a television. It can be used for good or bad purposes, but I don't live in dread of the bad ones; and I'm pretty good at staying out of places I find unpleasant--ie., there's lots of porn. Can't say I've BEEN to any of those websites lately but I know it's there.
Again, respectfully, just my view.
Heather
Scott and Jon -
Oh MAN...you can't leave me hanging with that. Wow. Why those picks in particular?
Jay (trying to avoid another kiddie porn rant with visions of sunshine)
Little Washu...
Why don't you ask Meat about that element, hmm?
We have lurkers here, yes. We have people under aliases--but they used them from the start.
YOUR thinking behind this move, I find a bit..I dunno..silly.. would that be the word I'm looking for?.. hmm?
That's out there..in here.. it's a little bit different. That's why Ellison showed up here and stayed a while, to some extent.
Hiding behind a self-induced situation--like me saying, "I'm gonna play Supergirl now cos Batman's pissed at me..."
Uh.. na.
I find it a bit adolescent, in this case. Are you suggesting you are adolescent? Hmmmm?
Suit yasself, bebes. If someone like Ellison worries you THAT much.. suit yasself.
*grin*
Heather, who plans on nom de plumes but has no plans for aliases--unless I start OUT that way. (Yes? Lynn? *laugh*)
Frank -
Are these countries that permit the distribution and sale only, or do they allow the creation and publication of this work?
Jay
Ran into this essay, written by Brendon Sexton, who is one of the actors in Black Hawk Down: Seems Sexton is a closet leftie like me. He really claws into the truth behind the movie that he trained for. Good to see someone in Hollywood is thinking.
Lynn, maybe, this one will work for ya.
http://www.zmag.org/content/ForeignPolicy/sextonblackhawk.cfm
Are we actually talking about hockey?--The most boring sport in the history of mankind; ah, actually, that is soccer.
Remember, that the bulk of child porn is made in countries where it is legal: Sweden and Denmark. How do we tell these countries what to do with their laws? Coarse we could bomb them.
Strange, that the religious right and others rarely mention these countries: They never mention sanctions or other punishments. No President has ever said nary a peep. And I am a left/libertarian saying this!
Well, Mel has set in her head that the way for the Canadian women will win the gold is for her and my two girls to sit in my Hockey Fortress of Solitude, aka our rec room, and channel the karma from my extensive Montreal Canadiens memorabilia collection to the Canadian ladies.
All this from a woman who insists she's not superstitious.
I'm hearing that the Russians, miffed at a seeming pro Canada and US bias, are using the excuse of a "unfair" blood doping test against a member of their cross-country ski relay team, are now threatening to pull out of the games entirely. All their athletes.
And folks complain 'bout ole Whiner Wayne...
Well, Jon, I don't mind the money: its the BS about the love of the game that I hear from people like him that sours me. It's a business: hell, I make my living from it, but somehow we keep hearing this nonsense about it being our culture, that is represents our identity as a country. Gretzky plays this old tune himself.
Yep, we need revenue sharing to keep the game alive in Canada, but the NHL ownership, especially those teams in the US remain the most resistent. Ken Dryden himself has come out against the NFL model, knowing his team the Leafs have a near total lock on viewership in southern Ontario, through their daisy chain of local televison contracts.
Now, the Olympic game itself? I love removing the center red line; opens up the offense. The fast face-offs, great; it'll reduce the time it takes for a game by about ten minutes. The best notion is the no-touch icing rule. I wonder how many injuries it'll prevent from players not having to engage in the headlong rush past the goal-line, often with an opponent pushing from behind.
Of course, these are good ideas; I wonder how long the NHL will play with the idea of implementation before abandoning them.
Susan, only since I noticed you logged on today, I thought I would unbury this posting from Feb. 16.....I figure Harlan and/or you have been off the board for awhile and may not have caught it:
-------------------------------------------------
Todd Cassel
NJ USofA - Saturday, February 16 2002 18:27:13
Harlan/Susan: ::trying very hard not to sound like a greedy, self-centered, beggar:: A couple of weeks ago Harlan mentioned that he had popped a signed Outer Limits Chase Card in the mail to me. Haven't seen it yet.....just wondering if we have a problem with our postal system.
The address you have for me in your Rabbit Hole records is correct.
Thank You.
- Todd Cassel (sitting here with my brand new PRO-Mold 1/2" Deluxe Memorabila Heavy Screw Recessed Area Archival Safe Lucite Trading Card Display and an empty, freshly dusted place on my Harlan Ellison bookshelf)
Jon,
Complete agreement on you with the larger surface of hockey in the Olympics. I'm not a huge hockey afficianado (possibly because that pissant Wirtz is so against Blackhawks games on TV), but the style of play in the Olympics is much more pleasing and precise - almost elegant.
Regards,
Joseph
Scott,
A) Thanks for the e-mail addresses. As soon as Sandbox starts the new season I'll get the league started.
B) For Poe writing Sandman, are we talking Wesley Dodds or Morpheus/Daniel? Either one has it's appeal....
Regards,
Joseph
Ice Money:
Geez, Scott, I hope you didn't infer from my pointing out Gretzky's salary desires that I thought there was something *wrong* with them. Pocklington was a notorious cheapskate; Gretzky probably made the Kings back his salary and the $15 million they paid for him in the first season; I'd much rather see rampant inflation among player salaries then owners wielding the kind of power they did during the bad old, I mean *glorious*, Original Six days, but obviously it isn't an either/or problem.
I do think revenue sharing among pro teams is the way to go -- the NFL is a model for small-market teams remaining popular, competitive, profitable, and capable of sustaining national fanbases. If not a genius, Rozelle was at least either very smart or very lucky. The same model in the NHL might have yielded a competitive, profitable league with teams remaining in Winnipeg and Quebec. Or maybe not. This system gives us a diluted talent pool and teams in Tampa Bay, Carolina, Washington, and Anaheim that no one seems to want even when they're winning, and declining interest in the States even when compared to the mid-90s.
And I must admit, I like the larger ice surface of Olympic hockey -- it'll take at least another twenty years of steroid and hormone development to create players large enough to clog it up.
TTFN,
Jon
Further thoughts on re-creating heroes:
Plastic Man by Kurt Vonnegut
Silver Surfer by Norman Mailer
Cloak and Dagger by James Baldwin
The Sandman by Edgar Allen Poe
The Fantastic Four by Tom Wolfe
Sorry, I can't stay in the box of just speculative writers; gotta play big, or stay home.
Scott, who fight crimes under the secret identity of Rink guy, driving his weapons-laden Zamboni...
Ah, shit, I let loose my secret identity again...Jesus, third time this week...Mel, you wanna get me the gun...Yeah, again...Okay, everybody who read this, could you please raise your hands...Sorry, but I've got to do this...
Joseph:
Here's the email addresses
Mine; moebiuslooped@yahoo.com
Mel's; entropy_5ca@yahoo.com
Or, just use mine or Mel's, either way.
On Gretz, Mess, Malomar, and Canadian fans: For some godforsaken reason, we still seem as a national collective to labour under the impression that our home-grown athletes cannot be tainted by the stain of wanting to be as greedy as any other nation.
The spirit of Carlin rises with the mighty former Meat:
BULLSHIT!!!!BULLSHIT!!!!BULLSHIT!!!!BULLSHIT!!!!BULLSHIT!!!!
Gretzky's decision was motivated by money, same as Messier's, Lemieux's (as an untried first overall draft pick, he held the Penguins for financial ransom, demanding to be automatically placed in the same income bracket as Gretzky, without never having played so much as an inter-squad game in preseason at the NHL level), Alomar's, and any other homegrown talent.
One need only look at the debacle concerning the "Great One"'s short tenure in St. Louis to realize how much of a mercenary he truly was. This is, was, and always will be a person who's looked out for number one, and has used the image he's created of being "Mr. Canadian Hockey" for his own purposes, even if his greed and self interest has made it difficult for the country he professes to love to be able to afford to sustain the game within its own borders.
Personally, I think he's one of the primary reasons the Canadian game of hockey is falling into disrepute.
Scott returns the spirit of Carlin to its rightful owner, knowing that, one day, he may need its power again to battle the forces of evil.
BTW, Philip K. Dick to write the Green Lantern, and J.G. Ballard to remake Mr. Freeze into an anti-hero...
>Also, while this might offend some people, I think the child porn problem online has been blown greatly out of proportion. <
You could be right, who knows, but the actual molestation problem is ongoing. It even seems to be rising, although that may be better reportage.
All I know is, the smut spam seems to be steadily increasing by the month. These assholes will push and push until Congress finally clamps down on everything. The wild west of the Net is almost over...I'd say we were in our 1880s period now, just about at the end of the frontier. Here comes da judge...
King Lurk
I agree that going after people who view child porn is just not feasible and it is penny ante stuff when you need to be tackling the big guys - the providers.
There is also a difficult line to draw. Any picture of a child being sexually molested is obviously porn. But what about pictures of naked children? You can walk into your average Border's and find a book of photographs of underage children - I know Jock Sturges is one of the photographers who does this. These are legal but there is also no doubt these are plastered all over the World Wide Web for pedophiles to look at for sexual stimulation.
If that's all they do - look at pictures of naked kids and not ones being raped - do we still view these people as monsters?
I don't think we ever want to get into any thought policing. I also don't know if people can help who they are attracted to. But they can help their actions and that's what you have to legislate. Deciding who might be more dangerous than someone else a priori is a difficult area. Yeah, you want to stop people before they ever make that decision to rape a child. Of course. But do you profile people based on certain behaviors and punish them because of what they are likely to do even when they haven't done it yet? I'm not comfortable with that idea.
You've got millions of users looking at these pictures. You just can't realistically go after them so I suppose a few random busts on such users would scare a few people. You go after the providers ruthlessly. And you have to do so on global basis because they'll just keep finding other countries where enforcement is more lax.
Also, while this might offend some people, I think the child porn problem online has been blown greatly out of proportion. Yeah, you can find some stat that shows you there are a 100,000 or whatever sites with it - they're probably copying the same 100 or sets of photographs and then trying to make money off it. It's a real problem and a serious one, of course, but I think we have created an atmosphere of hysteria in the U.S. over this issue.
About five years ago, a good friend mailed me a copy of the March/April 1990 "Bloomsbury Review", containing our gracious host's essay "Hard Truths & Sage Advice". For those who haven't read it, this essay was originally intended as preamble for the winners of a writing contest sponsored by "Twilight Zone" back in 1982. The "Bloomsbury Review" included Harlan's comments about the situations that prevented the publication of the original essay in "TZ" all these years ago, in particular mentioning that out of nine THOUSAND submissions, the judges were lucky to find ten decent stories, much less ten winners. I made a photocopy of that article, and it currently hangs on the wall right next to my typing desk: it's my own little "Remember, thou art mortal" reminder.
Anyway, for those who have had to deal with the slushpile in any way, shape or fashion, this "Revolution SF" article is for you. Just remember: International Slushpile Bonfire Day is coming up, and I'm sure you have plenty of manuscripts that could be considered...
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/950.html
Cordially,
Paul T. Riddell
http://www.hpoo.com
Lost HERC member: Marc Maurus. Last known address in Royal Oak, Michigan.
Once again, thanks--Susan
Medical care is just another domino in the monopolized economy. To change this stuff is not going to be easy, but it needs to be done. Polls conclude that the public want sweeping insurance reform, but politicians are owned by the big medical interests-- or the scare tactics are used to compare "socialized medicine" to communist Russia. But the sunny prospect is that even big buisiness is not happy with having to pay for medical benifits, and would consider a Canadian system.
Reform is not as good as overthrowing the system, but every idea must start with a seed.
Bad Text Editing:
Please note that Harlan Ellison, obviously, should be in the first column and not the second...consider it another illustration of sloppy text inserting going awry while using a computer.
Jon
More Ice Whining and Dream Teams:
Actually, I think Gretzky went to LA for the massive salary hike, as Messier would go to New York a few years later.
Be glad you don't live in Canada if you think Gretzky's annoying in that brief soundbite...the terrible annoyingness of the new Lay's potato chips ads with Mark Messier recall such previous awful Canadian ads-with-athletes such as the Darryl Sittler home pizza oven ad and the Robbie Alomar McCain's Punch ad...only in Canada? Pity.
And Habs great Guy Lafleur now does ads for Erectile Difficulty. He's against it.
Hmmm...revised superheroes...
John Varley on X-Men?
Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle on Superman?
Joe Lansdale on Batman?
Lawrence Block on Batman in Detective Comics?
Joanna Russ on Wonder Woman?
William Gibson and Bruce Sterling on Metal Men?
Ursula LeGuin on Justice League (now known as the Cooperation League)?
James Blaylock on Justice Society?
And, in terms of What ifs...
Poul Anderson on the Mighty Thor?
EE Smith on Green Lantern?
Eando Binder on the Incredible Hulk?
Jorge Luis Borges on the Doom Patrol?
Lester Dent on Superman?
Walter Gibson on Batman?
L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt on Sandman?
Robert Bloch on Hellblazer?
A.E. Van Vogt on X-Men?
Theodore Sturgeon on Swamp Thing?
Harlan Ellison on Freelance and Nelvana of the Northern Lights?
Ah, well
Jon
ATTENTION ALL POSSIBLE FANTASY LEAGUE PLAYERS!
Please provide me with your e-mail address so that I may invite you to a Private sandbox.com league. If you do not wish to have it posted to the board, please e-mail me at JosephFinn@yahoo.com. Thanks, and good luck to all!
Regards,
Joseph
Melissa,
I will indeed set up a league, and I will happily send invitations to yourself and Scott.
Oh, and admit it: don't you think the Canadian team is a WEEEE bit happy about yesterday? You go from playing one of the best teams in the world to suddenly playing Belarus. Not a bad turn of events.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph:
Two things.
First, talked to the man, he's in, and me too, although I must profess I'm not much for stats, and all that. I like the game, just never really invested the same level of interest as my father, or Scotty does.
They're debating purchasing season's tickets again...
If you're making a private league, (whatever that means), Scotty says to send us invitations at our email addresses. That way we can join fast.
Second, Gretz: That is precisely why he did it. The thing of it is, I don't think it was necessary. First, Fleury, who received the crosscheck from Hamerlk, played last night and seemed fine, second, the team is finally rounding into form.
Tonight, Joseph. Good Luck for Team USA. They're gonna need it.
GO, CANADA, GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love to All, Melissa
Heather:
Calvino does tend to have a largely sunny, optimistic disposition in many of his stories, but they're so damn imaginative that I love 'em anyway. Did you try _Cosmicomics_? That's the best, as far as I'm concerned. Can't help you with "dark" -- I haven't been doing "dark" reading lately, though I love it in films.
By the way, I believe the self-help Robbins is Tony or Anthony Robbins, not Tom Robbins. Tom Robbins is the optimistic, playful novelist responsibe for _Even Cowgirls Get the Blues_, _Jitterbug Perfume_, _Another Roadside Attraction_, etc.
I saw "Black Hawk Down" and "Hart's War" over the weekend. Both a bit better than I was expecting. As to the former, what do you expect from another Bruckheimer? Kinda made me wonder whether guys have wars just so they'll have a legitimate excuse to touch and love and care for one another....
Glad we are bringing the pedophile chat to an end. It's a very distasteful subject, and we aren't going to solve the problem here.
An interesting coda: this month's National Review (I read this to keep objective; I'm pretty left-wing) has a very good article about porn spam and child porn sites. Estimates suggest over 100,000 child porn sites in the Internet...the problem is mushrooming, thanks to the anonymity of Internet use and the ubiquity of spam, which is the main gateway for the unwary and for potential new users.
The article suggested that a first step would be to outlaw spam of any kind, like unsolicited faxes were banned a decade ago. This is a big first step towards limiting access to smut sites, and thus, hopefully, limiting the creation of new sites.
I'm all for that...I stopped using hotmail because I got tired of all the smut mail that clogged my mailbox every day. The problem is getting out of control, and it's not a free speech issue: a mailbox should be private.
I think in the end prevention is the only real solution. Once a molester has crossed the line, as many have pointed out here, it's difficult to a) find a working method of rehabilitation and b) generate enough social support to even care to try. So it seems we need to ask ourselves, as a society, why? Why are children being molested, in sickeningly huge numbers? And why are so many of those molesters their own parents? What the hell is going on?
If we can find answers to those questions, maybe we can find ways to prevent the crimes before they happen.
King Lurk
LYNN: That's the best reason--aside from the fun--to join a fantasy league. You KNOW everything.
Used to be I knew every player--how they did, how they were doing, the whole schmeer. I've always kept up my love of the game, but after I stopped collecting baseball cards (around 1982, right before puberty's onset), I lost my encyclopedic knowledge of current players, or at least those who weren't on my Phillies. Thanks to the Sandbox league and my best friend, I now can rattle off stats and comparisons again. I never lost my love for the game--hell, baseball is religion and fathers and the fresh scent of spring--now that love is based on a deeper understanding.
It's akin to comparing junior high dating to having a live-in lover.
JON: *I* did not trash the locker room; the 1998 players did. *I* did not forfeit anything. *I* bitched out the Nagano-nos for behaving badly in the first place, so I think I'm well within my rights to talk trash about some whining (does Gretzky even live in Canada these days? I understood that the main reason he went from the Oilers to the LA Kings was that so Janet could be in L.A.).
P.A.: There's no war on molestation because you can't dress up "Molestation Task Forces" in vaguely paramilitary uniforms and parade them about in press conferences to rationalize more taxes or such.
Also, drug dealing is a lot easier to prosecute--there's a larger preponderance of hard evidence as opposed to testimony. Plus, that testimony is often weak, coming as it does from a shamed and scared child who may just clam up to avoid scrutiny. This is why you hear more about child porn rings busted than you do rings of childfuckers.
And "childfuckers" is the term I will use; the definition of a paedophile is "one who loves children." Well, *I* love children; they're great. But a molester does not love his target/victim, no matter what the NAMBLA fuckwads say. It is a crime of power and pain; of fucking both physical and emotional.
For the same reason, I prefer my harsher term over "molester"--hell; a MUGGER is a molester. Might as well say "child assaulter."
Now, onto the thornier level--I see child porn as small change. Go after and imprison the makers before you imprison the readers--PROVIDED you have a certainty that the pornviewing is not the precipice of a slippery slope toward action.
The crime I think is MOST reprehensible is the HUGE child sex industry in Southeast Asia. I haven't the time to go into the particulars right now, but check out http://www.ecpat.com.
The big repulsion for me is that this industry is funded by rich men from China, Australia, the U.S. and other purportedly "free" countries wwho go over to Thailand or Cambodia and think they have a free pass to abuse eight-year olds.
Another thing you should know about is the languishing CARE Act (http://www.careact.org), which seeks to end the incest loophole in American law which sees molesters related to their victims charged with incest, a less severe charge than rape.
A great group of resources on the many sides of attacks against children can be found at http://www.andrewvachss.com/help_text/index.html
It's at the site of writer and child-advocate lawyer Andrew Vachss, who has, in his writings, his work, and his lobbying, been a big force in the fight against child abuse.
(Now, while I viscerally like the idea of the National Child Protection Act and things like that, the part of me that seeks a fair and free government under the Constitution rankles at things like Megan's Law. It's satisfying to the gut, but wholly unconstitutional. I don't know. It's freedom versus freedom, and I can't decide where my feelings should lie on this small facet of the issue.)
PETER: Royal mess it is, but there's no reason you can't shop around to find a lawyer who'll listen. I don't care what conditions a patient has--even if he or she is days away from dying and you perform medical malpractice upon him or her, that is actionable.
Peter - Holy shit, pal. My prayers and best hopes for the family. Been there, wish I could wave a wand to make it better as I hoped someone would for me.
- Jay
The debate is moot - I respect King Lurk's POV. I don't think we're talking entirely on the same topic. It is also a painful topic and one I find myself getting tense reading it on this board. Ironic since I'm the guy that started it.
SO HERE'S THE DEAL -
I just found this treasure chest full of gold coins and rare gems buried in my back yard while gardening. Once appraised, I sold the lot to some firm for 1.6 gajillion bucks (American, not Canadian) and immediately set out to buy AOL/Time/Warner, Toy Biz, Image Publications and every other comic property holder in the known universe. I now control every comic book character ever created (with the exception of licensed or creator-owned properties which I hire the owners to control within my umbrella uber-corporation).
My quanry is this...I'm fickle, tired and superficial. I am tired of the old myths. I, like DC would like to reinvent them all with new creators and, like Marvel create them with an "edge" I think to my rich, bad-ass non-creative self, "Edge...where have I heard that before? Who has an "edge" to his writing? Oh that Ellison guy...but he's a pain in the ass to deal with. Oh well, I think...I'm a rich guy with nothing better to do than reinvent the entire comic book industry.
I say, HEY! I want to keep the name recognition, so we don't lose anybody if we don't have to but...what was that whole thing with Stan Lee last year? Didn't he REINVENT DC heroes? HEY! WHAT A COOL IDEA! Let me hire the best speculative fiction writers to reinvent comic's greatest (and not so great) legends!
But...but WHO? I remember you guys from my poor, unsung days haunting the Internet and pay you each $500 in Hollywood dollars from the ether of my imagination to headhunt the best writers and match them to a story, title, hero that you would enjoy reading.
I sit back on my fat, plush chair and wait for the work to be done for me. (puffs cigar lit by a Holywood hundred dollar bill from the ether of my imagination).
Any takers?
Peter, this is not a loaded question (I must preface that way, because I am often accused of being sarcastic when I ask something seriously):
Did you/your father know about the dangers of having the procedure done when you have diabetes BEFORE or AFTER the operation? That could be your legal issue right there if you get the right lawyer: If you knew about the dangers BEFORE, then you are probably out of luck because regardless of procedure, regardless of how well the moron doctors convinced him it was the right thing to do, the final decision to undergo the operation would have been your father's.
If you had no idea of the procedure vs. diabetes danger, and it was not presented to you prior to any actual cutting, then you have a case if it can be proved.
-TODD
King Lurk: Quite simply, I didn't quote you. (Note the lack of "")
But, how else am I to interpret: (and this IS a quote) "Are you ready to fill Death Row with, I don't know, twenty, thirty thousand more prisoners (probably more), most of them fathers, most of them sole breadwinners?", except as – most pedophiles are fathers and most are the sole bread winners, thus, incarcerating them would deprive their families of their parentage and income. Since you have generally advocated every possible solution EXCEPT permanent incarceration or the death penalty, forgive me if I misinterpreted it.
And unless your nom-de-cyberspace is more than I realized, I was under the impression that this entire discussion was pretty much about what we would LIKE to happen. I am not in any position to implement my proposed policies, but you can damn well believe I would vote for the candidate whose position was closest to it.
Thus ends MY commentary on this...
Sheesh. One morning meeting and the board lights up.
Alex,
Thanks for your suggestion on sandbox.com. I'll look into it. Who all is interested in going in on it with me?
As for Gretzaky, I did see one suggestion that he was whining so much to try and instill an "us versus them" mentality in his team, which has certainly been rather lackluster.
Regards,
Joseph
The HMO is question is Kaiser. The reason there is no malpractice action in motion is two-fold. First, there must be arbitration against the HMO/doctors before any suit can be brought forth. Second, no lawyer (as far as we can find, they are just as bad as the doctors) will take the case because they need a doctor to review the case for arbitration. They keep being told that we have no case because my father is diabetic... therefore, what did we expect would happen? Our position is that Kaiser knew he was diabetic before intiating treatment and therefore was negligent in his treatment.
The whole thing is a royal mess. Sweet Geezus.
---Peter
Returning from the laboratory...Washu-Chan!
HEATHER: Thanks for the advice, but regardless I've pretty much decided to maintain this name. You COULD accuse it as being further evidence of the ridiculous amount of anonymity there is on the net, I suppose...but considering the unnerving increase in 'internet stalking' the past few months, I think I'm at least a little justified in my position.
XANADU: Bravo, it's about time someone else said that sometimes a brat can just be a brat. As for psychopaths, all they really are are death's little errand boys. We all die sooner or later, dammit, but these punks have the arrogance to think exterminating us in a less pleasant way is anything special. That's why I get royally ticked off at such cinematic 'classics' such as SILENCE OF THE LAMBS or SEVEN. These guys aren't brilliant. They're not geniuses. Just because you lack a 'moral centre' doesn't mean you're somehow superior to the human race.
Be very, very careful, though, Xanadu. There's a point where one begins to cross the line from rightful anger to fascist mentality. It could happent to anyone, it could happen to me, it could happen to you...lumping all the 'sickos' in one ugly lump and dismissing them for termination.
No more child porn, or talk of serial killers, if that's okay. There's a certain point where the very subject starts polluting the conversation itself.
Little Washu
King Lurk: Again, you offer no prescription. Can you give us an example of a practical solution to this problem?
Of course you can't. There isn't an answer because pedophilia is difficult, well nigh impossible to cure. That is a fact that no amount of rationalization about "heads of family units" can refute. It's part of who these people are; it's hardwired behavior that no amount of compassion from you can cure. You cannot offer us an answer because, essentially, there isn't a workable one that involves compassion. The only way to prevent a pedophile from molesting a child is to insure that the pedophile won't ever be near a child, ever. Period.
Why isn't there a war on child molestation like there's a war on drugs?
Bermanator
--We can't execute or permanently imprison someone because they are a father or the primary breadwinner of the family.--
I didn't say that. Do not misquote me, please. I said we can't execute or permanently imprison pedophiles because you'll never get that kind of legislation passed.
--What they do is monsterous, and I would rid my society of those monsters permanently.--
Ok, I see that we are ultimately talking about what we WANT to do, not what we CAN actually do. I'm trying to discuss realities here, not fantasies. Wrong board, I know. Let's call it a day on this one.
King Lurk
Lynn:
You can have all the good thoughts I've saved for today.
As for as I'm concerned, have Scotty's too; he won't mind.
Before you know it, Mom'll be meddling in your life again, good as new. The regular stuff: no grandkids, you need to meet a man, blah, blah, blah...
Love to Ya, Melissa
Peter: Christ.
Damn.
I second the thought, why aren't there mal-practice suits in progress - it won't return your father's limbs, nor cure his diabetes, but cold hard cash might do the trick...
Damn.
Whining:
You know, after that stellar 'Let's trash the locker room like we're Aerosmith' display by the American hockey team in Nagano, I think Americans collectively waived their right to comment on the bad behaviour of others, at least in hockey matters.
But anyway, the Gretzky "controversy" is already old hat -- the Canadian media outlets are now onto "Has Lindros been snubbed?" as of this morning (because he didn't play a shift in the third period of last night's game), with all the attendant Canadian hand-wringing and reporting-on-nothing-in-a-vacuum that we do so well.
Lindros, thankfully, has declined to comment.
The real question rising out of the Salt Lake City Olympics related to hockey is, are the powers that be incapable of making good hockey ice, correctly preparing pucks for play, or both? It's looked more like road hockey out there than ice hockey at times. I enjoy watching pucks roll, bounce and hop madly over sticks as much as the next guy, but preferably when they're on tarmac or concrete.
Jon
King Lurk: We can't execute or permanently imprison someone because they are a father or the primary breadwinner of the family...
Wow.
I can tell you right now I wouldn't want to live in YOUR ideal world any more than you want to live in mine.
You say: "I would even say that your responses are symptomatic of why our society is still so mired in this tragic problem... we need to think, people, think."
Actually, I'm fairly convinced that the lack of certain punishment is the reason we are mired in this problem. Criminal defense lawyers have gotten so good at confounding the issues using spectacular courtroom theatrics and misleading arguments that most criminals stand a pretty good chance of getting away with little more than a symbolic slap on the wrist. Thus, you create a genuine, justified belief in criminals that they "will get away with it."
To explain further, I'm going use a child rearing analogy here.
When a child misbehaves, acts up, throws things, yells, swears or generally acts like a spoiled brat – you might suggest we should look at the parenting system, try to understand the complicated dynamics and delicate thoughts in the little brat's head – only then can we come up with the proper response, carefully crafted to meet that individual child's unique life experience.
Bullshit. You stop antisocial behaviour by clearly delineating the consequences if they should appear again, and when they do – you implement the punishment. Punishment that is swift and terrible (for a child, it can be a swat on the butt, or a grounding, or some other less-than-capital punishment, lest those reading this suspect I want to execute children for screaming in a store.) will curb the behaviour. Maybe not the first time, but after two or three times, I assure you, they get the message.
Thus it is with the criminal (actually, anyone). If we realistically implement a system of punishment, swift and terrible, pretty soon most everyone is behaving nicely. Even pedophiles. Those who don't, don't have a working moral compass anyway – why then should we ever allow them to mix with the general population?
I can usually imagine situations and circumstances that could justify nearly every criminal behaviour known, including killing someone – I cannot come up with any that would justify doing kids. Can you? Can anyone?
I'll even that expand even further – is there ever a situation or circumstance that justifies sexual predation of any kind?
Explains, maybe. But justifies? No. And if you can't justify it, why tolerate it?
I live in a world of actions – I really don't care about explanations. Nor do the victims, I suspect. Act badly, face the music. Period. Do kids, rape women – die. Period.
You feel that my position is extreme, and I agree with you – it is. But that is where I draw the line, and no amount feel-good pop psychology will change my mind. What they do is monsterous, and I would rid my society of those monsters permanently.
Peter~ My thoughts & prayers to your family and you. I wish there was something we could do to keep this sort of horror from happening to anyone else, but the problem is so gargantuan and endemic in the system. I know saying, 'Scrap it and start over,' really isn't viable, but something needs to be done, so that these crimes can't be committed against anyone else. The it's-not-my-problem attitude of this country sickens me sometimes.
And on a more pleasant note, I'm game for fantasy baseball. I know this sounds strange, but I've been looking for a reason to follow the game more closely (like I did when I was growing up and the Astros were like unto gods.) Can someone explain more about a league?
L.
PS. My mom is in surgery for her knee replacement as I type this. I awhile I'm getting in the car to drive to Santa Barbara to meet her in recovery. Any spare good thoughts you folks have would be muchly appreciated. Thanks.
Hello, all. A quick one: I've got some bisque that's got to get into the kiln in a few minutes.
Heather: I believe you're referring to Velvet, out in 'Mysterysauga' if my memory serves. I don't believe Scotty or I have ever mentioned where we live. I know it's his policy not to.
Alex Jay: We Canadians, as whiners? If Gretzky was so offended by the press and refereeing in Salt Lake, he would've been driven into a cry-baby coma from the abuse the team took up here for their lousy play in the qualifying round.
Whiner Wayne (that's an old nickname from his days back with the Edmonton Oilers; if an opposing player came within 30 feet of the "Great One" he'd scream for a penalty based on restraint of trade.) been pulling this schmeer a long time. The thing is, we Canadians see right through his little ploy. A local radio station replayed his comments yesterday with the song "You and Me Against the World", and fake sobbing in the background. The two deejays wnt on about our little spoilded child Wayne...
Just ignore him, Alex Jay, and he'll stop his crying. Attention only encourages more of this pathetic display.
You don't see the Canadian women's team complaining, do you?
Love to all, Melissa
Another baseball-gummint item: Did anyone else notice that David Bunning, the son of Phillies pitching great and now Repub Senator from Kentucky, was just confirmed by the U.S. Senate as a federal judge (a lifetime appointment, mind)?
This despite the fact that he (a district judge at 35 years of age) is two years shy of the experience recommended for the position and despite the fact that the American Bar Association judged him unqualified, with one of their investigators calling his civil service work "shallow," and saying that his legal writings "read very much like the work of a young associate"?
I mean, Bunning the father is one of the more well-spoken Repub Senators, and was a DAMNED great pitcher, and I wouldn't want to begrudge his son anything just because of his father's fame and position--but can't the Powers That Be make their nepotism a LITTLE less obvious?
Peter,
What happened to your father is CRIMINAL. The doctors who did this to him are LIABLE and should make a living for him for the rest of their lives.
I wonder if he was treated by doctors at a VA hospital.
COBRA is a bandaid on a severed femoral artery. It keeps those covered floating but the raft is FILLED with holes and passengers can only wait helplessly as it sinks.
In short, COBRA sucks. I know-- I've been there too.
Insurance should be a right as in if you have it and you lose your job you should have the RIGHT to keep it as long as you pay the premiums. Premiums that will remain fixed and cannot be raised unless they are raised for everyone.
In America there should be no person lacking QUALITY health care.
I think ST. Jude's Children's Hospital in Memphis should be the prototype for indigent health care in this country. The government needs to figure out how they manage a world class facillity AND offer treatment to EVERYONE without concern for payment and without the humiliation that those without insurance are subjected to everytime they face a receptionist with an attitude.
I am sorry for what happened to your father, Peter, there is no excuse for those imbeciles who treated him and they should be punished and stopped from practicing their sort of medicine permanently.
Cindy
FANTASY BASEBALL: Scotty, Chris, Joseph, you may want to look into sandbox.com. It's free and has a pretty nicely-done system. My best friend and I have been in a league of pals for a couple years now. I am a Waiver Wire God, if you must know.
They also have football, hockey, basketball, the works--and they usually have at least two kinds of game for each sport (salary cap, regular draft, et cetera).
Speaking of hockey ...
YO CANADIANS: I love both your hockey teams--how can you not?--but when did The Great One become a paranoid whiner? I mean, sure--I remember the mid-Eighties refrain, "Wayne Gretzky is a woman," but that was simply born out of childlike jealousy and a lack of understanding when it came to the idea of a less physical speed game way of playing.
"The whole world hates us. The other players shouldn't check us. The media said something bad. I'll go and eat worms." Yo, Gretz--should we get Mark Messier to pop you in the head (lovingly; as a friend) and remember what hockey is?
PETER: Yowtch. If I may ask: Why have malpractice suits not entered the equation?
I'm torn between which has been worse in my family's experience: the doctors or the insurance.
Seven years ago my father was diagnosed with adult onset diabetes... Now, before I go into this, let me state for anyone that has misconceoptions about this form of diabetes, my father was not a heavy man. He stood 6'3" and weighed 190lbs. He didn't bring this on himself through a "sedentary" lifestyle. (I get peeved at people who say that adult onset is strictly the result of obesity and the "lifestyle" that causes it.) The suspected cause of this condition is a medicine that was used to control cholesterol during the "eggs are evil" age of the late eighties, early nineties. So in essence, it could be said that the doctors helped give him this condition.
About three years ago, he suffered a mild heart attack... only no one, not even him, knew. All he knew was that he came back from a trip to Alabama with what the doctors diagnosed as a stomach flu. Six months later, his feet swelled up and a vascular specialist diagnosed him with congestive heart failure.
Since then it has been an uphill battle. Arteries in his legs began to collapse, so the brilliant doctors decide to do an angioplasty -- even though all medical research says you NEVER use angioplasty on diabetic patients, because they cannot heal the micro-tears than form when the balloon expands the arterial walls. His feet go necrotic, and he loses them. They next do bypass surgery to save the legs. Only, they give him a massive infection. They don't believe him when he expresses concern about an infection, so they ship him back home.
The infection ate the bypass and he lost both legs below the knee.
Now, when he needs it most, he is losing his medical coverage. He had been working this whole time, at least until last March when the dot com industry went bust. And even then, he had a COBRA on his insurance that should have lasted until next september. Excpet, because the last company he worked for is trying to shuffle off into the ether, they pulled away the COBRA.
He recieves long term disability payments which he and my mother live on. They will have to pay exhorbitant prices to keep up medical care for a series of conditions that his doctors have inflicted upon him either directly or indirectly for the last ten years or so. That's even if he can get the insurance back after the COBRA disappears, because the big, red tapeworm of bureacracy that eats the HMO from the inside is trying to play the pre-existing condition card on him. Even though (and I forgot to mention, my dad has been with this group for over thirty years) they played no small part in his condition.
So, I'm not sure which is worse: the Docs, or the HMOs.
I'm off to class.
---Peter
King Lurk -
I understand your point of view as well. This is not a lawless world. In fact, we spend more time trying to decipher the poor bastards than punishing them. You're absolutely right - we'll go through the system: Did he do it? Yes or no? If Yes, can we mitigate the circumstances by understanding the man was not in control, or had a bad childhood, or he was off his medication, or his doctor is to blame, or his mother didn't love him. Did the police follow procedure? If no, then it doesn't matter. Did the court follow procedure? If no, then - again - it doesn't matter. Did the court misinterpret testimony or did the jury have some sort of spoilage that could discount a guilty verdict? If yes, then it doesn't matter. Do we have an appeal? How many? How long will it take to retry the whole thing? Can we get the victim back in to testify on more details? If you're guilty, you can still be set free.
Yeah, there's a reason for checks and balances. I understand how we need to be moral and decent and careful. But I really don't care. Destroying monsters doesn't necessarily mean putting a simple bullet to the head. It means throwing the bastard in prison, where molesters are reduced to powerless terrified victims. It's not my world, Lurk, and that's a good thing. But my point of view on how to treat them will not change to match the more educated, thoughtful and civilized world. I guess the courts are there to protect offenders from people like me.
Rob sez about healthcare: "But screw the theories and political philosophies (especially from people who have no idea what's going on outside their own worlds), we should experiment with the system, scrap whatever doesn't work, modify, and so on, until there's more fairness and less interference with the doctors."
Other than taking the "people who have no idea what's going on outside their own worlds" comment to be a shot at me. And, boy, am I glad Rob is around to tell me how I live my life because I must remind myself each morning when I wake...I must repeat that mantra....."I know nothing unless Rob knows it. I am wrong unless Rob agrees. I know nothing. I am wrong. My opinion does not count and I am uneducated and misinformed because Rob does not agree".
Other than that mantra, I have to wonder about what world HE is living in. Experiment with the system? Scrap what doesn't work? How easily said, Master Rob. While we're at it, Rob, we could also bring world peace. Reality....it's a new concept....check the dictionary.
-TODD
Bad Medicine:
Holy Moley...42 million Americans don't have health insurance?
And the critics wonder why *John Q* did $25 million on its opening weekend (although it, of course, filmed mostly in Canada).
Jon
Jay, Xanadu, Berman....
Your responses are not lost on me. I have a young child too, and if he was to be molested, do you think my first impulse would be to seek counseling for the pervert?
But the fact is we live in the real world. All three of you are basically saying there's no hope, they've crossed the line, kill them now. But do you think that's EVER going to get written into legislation? Is this the gist of your bill, Senator Xanadu? Is this your legally-supported ruling, Judge Jay?
Do you know how long it takes to execute someone in this country? Are you ready to fill Death Row with, I don't know, twenty, thirty thousand more prisoners (probably more), most of them fathers, most of them sole breadwinners? Can we build the new prisons we're gonna need in your neighborhood? And can we raise your income taxes to pay for the years of appeals?
Advocating the single bullet to the brain sounds clean and easy, but there's a whole bunch of other people who are affected by summary executions or lifetime incarcerations, and it's not always positive. Family members, the victims themselves, the community, you and me. And again, you are NEVER going to get a law on the books that says "child molester? Kill him. Or lock him up forever." I don't need to tell you this.
So, while we can dream about ideals all day, the fact is we live in a real world with real law, lawyers, a penal system, courts, a bill of rights, and due process. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "they're beyond hope, we can do nothing" does not help a judge, a warden, or a legislator craft effective policy on how to deal with this very large problem. I would even say that your responses are symptomatic of why our society is still so mired in this tragic problem...we need to think, people, think.
King Lurk
Cindy,
"He quit several times due to the HMO debacle, they insisted that he see each patient for a specified amount of time.. as in 15 minutes. He didn't feel right about it. He's old school. So he opened his own small clinic so he can play by his own rules. He has been a physician for 43 years. He told me that the legal machine destroyed the balance between patient and doctor. He said that before things went so utterly wrong a doctor would treat an indigent patient for free. To this day he said that if a patient will send him five bucks a