I fervently hope that Mr. Ellison wins his fight against the unauthorized posting of copyrighted materials to websites. The implications should he lose are quite troubling.
Amy,
Anyone who is Simpsons savvy and willing to ingulge Joseph's Sumo rants is, I assure you, an elevated sole - er - soul.
Amy,
Japanese sounds good, if you're willing to walk me through what the hell I'd be eating. I've managed to never eat at a straight Japanese restaurant.
Joseph
Justin--Planet of the Apes broke the goofy-meter for me about halfway through. I didn't really EXPECT a whole lot from the movie (remakes tend to stink), but I loved the series as a kid and wasn't about to miss a new one. I enjoyed the first half an awful lot, too; it was really disappointing to see the second half nosedive. This one goes in the bad Burton file. Oh well.
Joseph--Maru is NOT my favorite, but hey, he can still beat Takanohana once in a while! Akebono was my favorite, but now I've got my eye on the new kid, Asashoryu...sure, he didn't make kachi-kosi in the Nagoya basho, but he's a BABY! (Hey...since it looks like you're the only other one from Webderland making it to Dragon*Con, how about hitting a Japanese restaurant? My husband is a sashimi monster & I need practice using chopsticks.)
Finder--See, I'm thinking that being different is the norm around here...so none of us should give anyone much hope for the future. We're the freaks. Kinda bleak. But, for all the hell I had to go through (probably the same you did), I agree. Wouldn't change a thing.
Ray - I don't know - I'd hate to be the team that loses a world series to the Cubs after such an interval. In the case of the Yankees, it would probably mean George fires EVERYONE - which, while really lowering the payroll, would make for a hell of a rebuilding year...
Amy - Typical? Nope. I was a quiet one - read a lot, worked a sports beat for the local paper, didn't party much - hell, I didn't start drinking until I was a junior in college. And what I would consider the "typical" teens around me ran roughshod over me for my difference. But while I didn't like my peers, I look back with a great measure of satisfaction on who I was, and all the very cool things that my being different got me - a brief but very cool meeting with the late Cus D'Amato, my byline, my scholarship, my seat on the girls varsity basketball team bus (opting to be a scorekeeper instead of killing myself to make the basketball team got me the corresponding job with the girls squad, and made me the only guy who got to ride their team bus - otherwise known as Nirvana to sixteen year old Finder.) - and I wouldn't change a thing. Viva la difference!
Lynn,
Thank you for your insights.
I have seen Planet of the Apes. I saw it the first day it came out, and towards the end, I thought I was going to be able to leave the theater happy. I thought I was going to be able to tell all my buddies that I saw some really solid sci-fi monkey romp action. But nooo, the film suddenly plummeted into blatant, moronic incomprehensibility and lost me completely. I almost feel personally insulted when I go to see a talking ape picture, and am willing to go along with that premise the whole way through, and then I am given no choice but to disconnect because something "incomprehensible" happens. You really have to try, as a filmmaker, to do that to me, and I'm awful pissed at Mr. Beetlejuice. Besides that, the lovely Estella Warren was in the movie for about two minutes and had a total of about two lines. Just criminal.
Rick,
Not be a gnat, but any chance some of the board could be archived. It's running about 750 kb right now, and takes a long time to load even on DSL.
Regards,
Joseph
Amy,
Right on! Let's have more discussions of whether Musashimaru should have been promoted to Yokozuna position.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
A centennial Cubs/Sox World Serious in 2006…awfully good! Except we’ll need a different outcome. If memory serves, weren’t the 1906 White Sox the original "Hitless Wonders"?
Lynn: Indeed. A sure sign of the apocalypse if da Cubs win da series.
Oh, and Rob? I get every single one of your Simpsons references. I'm not sure if that's fun or frightening.
First off, the Yankees stomping the snot out of any team brave or insane enough to try 'em in the Series is a given. I have now reached my baseball interest overload point, but if anyone is into sumo wrestling, I'm there.
Getting back into the "youth of today" fray (sorry, I missed yesterday's meeting), I have a question for everyone. Did (or do) you consider yourself a typical teenager for your generation?
Ray,
C'mon. Cubs/Yankees? Of course, it would be exciting if the Cubs were there. But the Yankees? Now a Cubs/Boston series - that would be exciting (evem if I now officially hate the Red Sox more than ever).
Of course, the ultimate would be a re-match of 1906. Hmmmm....2006 isn't that far away.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Anyone know how convenient Turner Field is from the Atlanta Hilton, in terms of public transportation? I haven't been able to find a web page for Atlanta's subway system.
Matt~ Very well put. One of the wonders of evolution is watching the new culture plow under the old, an Ourobourus that recreates itself anew, seemingly unaware of its ancestral influences.
Rob~ It's only a conspiracy if the FB's are NOT responsible for the things we accuse them of. ;)
Ray~ If the Cubs win the Series, isn't that one of the signs written of in Revelations?
L.
"If the CIA did half the things we accused them of, we might actually be getting our money's worth."
Finder: Although the Cubs playing against the Red Sox, hell against anyone, in the World Series would be tremendous…can you possibly fathom anything bigger, anything more humongous, than a Cubs/Yankee WORLD SERIES! I do believe the universe its-own-self would grind to a screeeeching halt to watch that one. Hold on please, I need to take my medications now.
Susan, received my copy of Sleepless in pristine shape. Mahalo, Colleen
Ray - I've been a Yankee fan from day one, and I can honestly say that if my boys stumble and fall, there are only two teams that I'd like to see go the distance instead: the Mariners, because they're having the kind of year that begs for a big exclamation point at the end (and because that would be ultimate vindication against a certain former shortstop's (and his agent's) remarks in Esquire back at the beginning of the year) and the Cubs, who deserve to ease the burden of 93 years worth of broken hearts.
Actually, a Red Sox/Cubs series would be, at minimum, four of the most interesting, intense, nerve-wracking nights in baseball history.
John,
Nah, nothin's scathed. To my advantage I'm bilingual: I speak english and grunt. So, when needed, I can interact with humans and subhumans with equal effectiveness.
Further, the benefit of being a member of this board, once you have your membership card and you've said your vows and you've dragged the Stone of Shame, is that you are equipped with a single-frequency cell phone (kept in the heel of your shoe), and if you get into trouble, with but one quick call, Harlan himself or his henchmen (all in berets) will come to your immediate aid, charging in like the Light Brigade, pummeling your adversary to a pulp and dumping their carcasses into choice places like the East River or Santa Monica Bay (no WONDER they're so polluted).
(I understand a healthcare policy is going to soon become part of the package, too; the doting altruistic fingers of the Harlan Ellison Board reaches out to the needs of all its members; YOUR problems are HARLAN'S problems).
...so what color is YOUR secret cell-phone? Mine is rouge.
I don't think kids are hungry enough anymore.
Again, parents are afraid to say no, afraid to step in and generally leave the job of education up to the professionals. The professionals, in turn, point back at the parents and guardians and say,"How do you expect me to teach this brat of yours? All he hears at home is how stupid teachers are."
Public schools: I'm glad we have 'em, but it isn't reasonable to expect them to do the entire job of educating and raising a child. The school is there to provide parents with a resource for the education of children. I believe that it is the natural responsibility of parents to educate their children for survival in their environment. This was true when Og taught little Magog to toss a spear efficiently and it is true today when my husband and I read to and with our children.
It has been great that my children learned to read and write in school. Saved my husband and I time. But we reinforced the importance of reading and writing at home. They see us reading, we read together. Then we talk about what we read and what we think.
Sometimes I fear that sort of interaction is not going on in other homes.
Of course, we killed our cable yesterday (after a year, we decided it wasn't worth it for us)and my kids and I are listening to Edith Piaf. So, I guess my spawn are sort of destined to be twisted dweebs for life.
Oh, well. Mama tried.
Just pickin’ nits:
Lynn, it’s truly worse than you thought…the Cubs ain’t won the World Series in 93 years. I know, IT IS hard for a rational mind to comprehend, but the gutwrenching nightmare may be coming to an end. As Harry Caray said once upon a time: "The Cubbies are coming, tra-la, tra-la.
Pennant Fever Ray
Rob, I stand corrected. And I do realize I may have a warped perspective living in Las Vegas. We have a lot of...hmmmm...interesting types here. Being a Midwestern boy, born and bred, they sometimes freak me out. Sorry to hear you've had a couple of encounters with unsavory individuals too, but you seem unscathed...which is a good thing. Can't afford to lose any members of one of the most entertaining, informed, enlightened bulletin boards on the net.
Matt,
My hat is off to you. You zeroed in on every point except the one I was trying to make.
John,
I crossed a few of them in the gym, but I'll take you to task on two points:
One, Cro-Magnon is too advanced; they are found to belong to the genus Australopithecus.
Two, "the rude guys who attempt to intimidate others," who I had to argue with, who I was occasionally nearly forced into fist fights with, whose primitive guttural grunts I had to hear, and who in those moments ruined my focus when I was working out were in older age groups as well as younger. And for their postures they had some semblance of a strut - certainly what THEY conceived as one. Too many people are simply a pain-in-the-ass to begin with.
So, uh, Lynn:
'They'...sounds like the latest remake of 'Them'.
I missed the scene where the 2nd Amendment fell. You may have to fill me in on that one; maybe that was the director's cut.
And I am wearying of the furry banana being the scapegoat, believe me.
I am tired of listening to "Kids these days" arguments.
Just because a college student doesn't know who Jackson Pollack was or likes "black music" but doesn't know who Otis Redding was does not mean that he/she is culturally illiterate.
They have their own culture. Why is yours so much better?
Do you think that there's only one way to learn how to live a life? Do I have to listen to only classical music and read only classic literature to enrich myself and expand my cultural boundaries?
Let's not make the mistake of saying that the art that we learn from is the art that all must learn from. Let's not assume that lessons can be learned only one way or delivered only one way.
There is NOT a "lack of culture" in society today. Culture is NOT dying out. Culture is NOT becoming "moronic."
Pop culture, an huge delivery device of knowledge and lessons for ALL generations, changes form and language with each generation. Just because you may not understand the language of a given generation does not mean that is stupid (or smart).
People are not getting dumber. Succeeding generations are not so much different their preceding generations. The trend of society as a whole is quite constant, actually.
Do you think that the kids wearing WWF T-shirts today are any different than the children who scrawled Latin graffiti on the walls of Herculaneum boasting about their favorite gladiator?
Each generation will find a voice. Rest assured that each generation will have it's bad apples, it's stupidity. So, in this day and age, with it's Internet and Cable TV, it's a bit more prevalent. We see it more often, because it's in our face 24/7. That doesn't mean it's dumbing us down as a species. That does not mean we are de-evolving. (What a concept!)
There will always be ignorant people. There will always be informed people.
Give the human race some credit in the advancement of intellect. Just because mass media sometimes shows us the "dumber" side of humanity doesn't mean that everyone is getting dumber. And just because you don't understand a college freshman's fascination with "The Real World" doesn't mean that he/she is not learning valuable lessons of psychological diversity.
Rob, Rob...don't act coy. You seem observant enough. Surely you must have seen at least a few of these would-be Cro-Magnons walking (nay, strutting) around. It's as if their minds are so underdeveloped that they must overcompensate by building their bodies up to grotesque proportions. Understand: I have nothing against bodybuilders, peole who have an honest interest in working out. I'm talking about the rude guys who attempt to intimidate others in clubs and on the streets. It's a phenonomenon that seems born out of current ignorance.
Besides, I've always believed a truly secure man doesn't need to strut. Word-of-mouth beats a self-conscious performance any day.
I personally believe that the death of culture and civilization in today's world can be blamed on one thing and one thing alone.
THEY are the reason your children can not read, THEY are the reason your politicians are for sale, THEY are the reason that Jesse Helms is STILL ALIVE. THEY are the reason that the Second Amendment has already fallen, THEY are the reason HIV/AIDS is endemic, THEY are the reason that Disney makes billions of dollars by warping the hearts and minds of our youngest and brightest. THEY are responsible for the violence in the Middle East, THEY sabotaged the peace talks in Northern Ireland, and THEY were the author of the tragi-comical Florida Elections. THEY are why the Cubs haven't won the Series in over fifty years, THEY are why the Bills have never won the Super Bowl, and THEY single-handedly masterminded Dennis Rodman's entire image.
They are insidious connivers, they are pervasive manipulators, and they symbolize everything that is evil and unholy in this day and age.
Two words, my friends:
Furry Bananas.
Warn your friends and loved ones. It's not too late to save yourselves.
{This has been another public announcement from Tongue-In-Cheek Production Ltd. We now return you to reality, already in progress.}
John, John...even I strut.
And to those of you who think the way we of a slightly older generation excoriate you of the younger for "losing" it is comparable to the way this happens between EVERY generation, bare in mind we have a litmus test disproving that:
Harlan told us about the many years he's visited college campuses across the country. He's talked with throngs of young people from generation to generation first hand. He's in a position to compare the relative inquisitiveness and knowledge about topics (aesthetic, political, historical, scientific, and so on). He's able to compare you guys to those of comparable age 20 years ago. Y'see, it seems they knew something besides the hottest new bands.
This isn't a matter of an older generation trying to suppress the odd form of cultural rebellion, as the generational wars of the past were usually about (when I was in my teens we usually put up with, "those fuckin' know-it-all kids"). This is an implosion. In past decades, youth rebellions often opened forms forms of free expression that hadn't existed previously - opening eyes that were once shut.
Now religion is stronger than it's been in many years - its tendrils trying to reach into as many areas of our lives as it can; high school kids are blowin' each other away; your knowledge valves are closing; hell, I'll even blame you for the reason movies suck so much these days. This is hardly an improvement in civilization. In some respects you've taken us back to the 50's.
Look, instead of arguing a blind defense, why not just bite it and admit something fucked up has happened and begin turning things around? If you're 15 all you're probably going to care about is having fun; if you're 18 or over it's time to widen the scope a little, man: between your Ecstacy highs and your dumb-ass MTV get inquisitive about other things with an intellectually or scientifically competitive spirit. Screw reliance on the system, dismiss the corrosive heritage of the Yuppies and religion, and Educate YOURSELVES. START by asking questions instead of presuming y'already have the answers (the latter is how religion slices it).
Speaking of devolving, has anyone else noticed how the younger generation (especially today's young men) clings to cartoonish ideas about what is masculine and feminine? It's as if all the lessons of feminism have been washed out of the system. I have a feeling I'm not the only one who is tired of seeing young, steroid-abusing strutting punks.
Hey, Frank:
Since Alex Rodriguez came up I oughtta send him after you with his bat.
I'll make this short n'sweet (cause I ain't got the time now): WHY are we always reducing the criteria to trends in music? DID I mention bands past or present? Or are you demonstrating my point?
You're overshooting the obvious.
My biggest gripe with the education system is the dismissive way that education and educators are handled by society in favor of all modes of entertainment.
I don't care how well he plays baseball, that punk Alex Rodriguez isn't worth a quarter of a billion dollars over ninety years, much less nine. And frankly, I wouldn't pay AH-nold to bring the car around so I could drive to work, much less grease his wheels with a private jet so he'll star in my movie. What is laid out for entertainment is obscene in this country, especially given the corresponding struggle for funds school districts face nationwide.
Society's current mode comes down to this: Education is a place where money goes to be spent, not made. If it can't turn a profit, it falls off the radar. Schools don't make money. Thus, schools are not worth the time, effort or expense. (Never mind that they were never intended to be cash cows; in today's world, right or wrong, that's the measure of worth: what does giving you money get me in return?)
The result? New teachers are either very dedicated and quickly grow disillusioned, or they're what could be had on short notice from a sparse pool of candidates, a warm body to fill a state-dictated lesson plan. And the children hear in the media that this pro athelete got a ten million dollar signing bonus, or that rock star who beat up his girlfriend last year just made a $30 million dollar deal with a label; the only time they hear about the teacher who went the extra mile to raise students up is when the story gets optioned by Dreamworks and Stallone gets cast as the teacher for $12 mil.
The message is clear: money talks, bullshit walks. Where is the incentive to learn the parts of speech, to read Cervantes, to grasp a logic problem or learn enough math to balance a checkbook, when all those other people didn't need them to get by?
There is none. There's no 24 point headline or thirty-second sound-byte that connects knowledge with a future (and no, Sinbad's series of commercials about all the cool things one can do with Math don't really cut it), so instead the message kids are inundated with is that fame and money are where it's at.
We're living in the land of the big score, and things being what they are, nobody collecting a check with more than six zeros is going to do a thing to change that, the media (top-heavy with this reality programming crap and un-News) isn't going to cut its own throat, and in the final analysis it comes down to parents and teachers to get children turned down a good path early on - short on time, on cash, on equipment, on facilities, and - in overcrowded schools - short on the attention a young mind needs.
Granted, this is by no means the whole problem. A child has to want to learn, parents has to take a healthy interest, and a teacher has to be skilled enough and dedicated enough to get through to both, as the case warrants. But given the Sisyphian boulders that a lot of schools face that could easily be trucked up that mountainside if society's priorities were in a different order, is it any wonder the education system is breaking down?
My two ducats. I'm really off profit motive these days...
Rob: I bet a lot of people wish they never heard the name Ralph Nader. Smile.
Lets also be honest: how many people actually listen to jazz or classical in America on a regular basis? Most kids seem to have hipper taste in music than their parent's. While Baby Boomers will stunt their own cultural growth with the combined force of Kenny G and Yanni, Their kids listen to all forms of differing kinds of sounds. Remember, MTV even had a version of "Unplugged" with Tony Bennett??
Justin:
Outside of that exchange I talked about, when that teenager associated being black with rap in the most RIGID sense (and, in effect, was wrong in his judgement about me)
Outside of routine history questions Jay Leno throws at today’s young’ns, ultimately embarrassing them on tv
Outside of the experiences a friend related to me about HIS conversations with today’s young’ns (to quote his reaction: “They don’t know SHIT!”)
Here is a fragmentary handful of responses I got from people who were in their early 20’s or late teens:
WHO’s Ralph Nader?
WHO’s Jackson ‘PO-lack’?
What’s ‘Sound of Music’? (never having seen the film I can understand, but NEVER even HEARING of it...creepy).
Who’s Salvidore Dali?
What’s Catcher In the Rye?
What’s an imaginary number?
What’s the Twilight Zone?
Who’s Rudyard Kipling?
That’s just a couple of examples off the top of my head. When I run across fissures like these what am I SUPPOSED to think? You're knowledgeable and broader minded than these people I ran across, I leave it for YOU to judge.
Frank,
The education system may be a part of the problem, yet as far as I know, they have classes still requiring you to read and math classes requiring you to calculate; it may be that students just refuse to do the work, and that leaves some open questions about the parents. The reasons for the problem are myriad.
Frank,
I believe we had a *huge* debate on this board a ways back (definitely some time last year, if I recall) about the role of the education system and the parents in the product of our youth. A lot of salient points made on both sides of the fence, worth a brief search on the archives if you're interested.
Peg
In my post, should be Edward O. Wilson
Not Edwin, my mistake.
His theory is "Consilience"
I hate to be obvious, but doesn't the fault with youth start with the fucked up education system? This is a system that makes sure kids are as brain fucked as possible. The easily manageable always make the best shoppers, remember. But we must also remember that not all kids are brain drains, or cultural lower rung dwellers. There is an organization called, Students Against Sweatshops, that do a great job on College campuses, informing the public on abuses of corporate dogs like NIKE. So not all is lost. Also, the Seattle protest was largely young people, and I am not just talking about the Anarcho-window breakers. But it was found out later that a lot of the window breakers were homeless kids, who were lashing out. The kids may not always be allright, but they aren't all bad either.
The music debate is interesting, but I am a bit peeved at all the people who consistantly pick on Rap music, and other forms of popular music. Rap music is popular in the inner city because it speaks to what is happening in the streets in blood red terms, that seem to scare away tame ears. Chuck D., of Public Enemy, calls rap, "Black Americas CNN". Rap can be quite crass, and at times, highly offensive, and stupid, but, rap is the way many who have no hope use as a way out of the killing fields. Rapper Ice-T has the money to hire ex-gang members, who would be killing and robbing if Ice didn't have the way out monetarily. I am not insisting that rap is as important musically as Jazz, but I do know many esteemed jazz musicians have guested on rap albums, and Quincy Jones has endorsed popular music for years.
I say for the record once again: there is good music and bad music. Good Jazz, Bad Jazz. Good rock, bad rock, etc...
This battle between young and old is kind of silly. Generations have always argued about what is "pure" and what is "impure" culturally, especially when it comes to music taste. I am sure I could find classical music critics who literally hate jazz music. I know a woman who loves opera and Mozart, but thinks jazz is "noise". The beat of rap is meant to piss off White America, and I kind of enjoy seeing certain white bread conservative types squirm. Miles Davis was castigated by jazz critics when he wrote in his autobiography that rocker Prince was the Duke Ellington of this age. Maybe Miles is right, maybe he is wrong. Everyone has opinions. Everyone has tastes. Some like sweet, some like spicy. Music has a mysterious power that is strange to say the least. Beauty works in many diffrent ways. Music is the one art form where a consensus is impossible.
But, this discussion is great. Keep it up folks. Good rant Ellison!
Kids are only as stupid as their parents and other adults in their lives let them be.
Think about this: many highly educated people either choose not to have children or have fewer children when they are older. I wasn't so sure about having children myself (now I have 'em, for better or for worse), but somebody said to me (I don't recall why or in what context really) that it was a good thing for educated strivers like my husband and me to have kids.
I meet kids all the time in my line of work. True, some kids think they already know everything and don't wish to look beyond their own noses. Far more, though, are curious, bright and want to learn. When I confront kids who signify with attitude, I calmly tell them that I won't let them fulfill the "lazy, spoiled, brat" role much of society assumes they fill.
I was lucky because my parents valued education though they weren't particularly well-educated themselves. Also, they made me work around the house, and when I was older, out of the house. They taught me to respect my elders and put me in my place when I got too uppity to bear. They weren't perfect, but they weren't the worst either. I was also lucky to have interested and dedicated teachers.
Justin: Out of curiosity, and since you mentioned Dawkins, have you had the chance to read Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up"? There's an essay that focuses on the 'new Darwinism', talks a bit about Dawkins, but mainly focuses on the work of Edwin O. Wilson. I'd never read him, though I had heard of him, and now I find myself itching to get a hold of his works, since I've always had an interest in genetics and biology. From what I gleaned from the essay and my own limited knowledge, Wilson postulates (based on his study of apes and especially ants---he won the Pulitzer for his myrmecological studies) that genetics defines not only one's physical and mental characteristics but one's role in society. Very interesting, and I intend to read more of him ASAP. Probably good ammo for anyone looking to shoot down the "nuture over nature" debate. (Nobody should believe that anyway….I think it was recently discussed here how the cream of humanity tends to rise to the top, no matter how many layers of scum it has to pass through…)
I am trying to think of some way to apply this genetic angle to the topic at hand (the 'dumbening' of youth). Not sure if I can quite do it…seems maddeningly close, though. Probably difficult because this might be one of those exceptional instances in which influences rather than innate qualities are the determining factor….or is that even right? Hell, I am one of those teens (not for much longer, though) and not to toot my own horn, but…well, okay, no tooting. You get the idea.
As sort of a larger scheme, though, what would really happen to society if everyone (or even 50% of people) were as intelligent, literate, (must resist urge to 'yadda') and…so on…as the folks in Webderland? I don't see it working, I really don't. I have held quite a few minimum-wage jobs in the past and quite honestly I think they just suck. After months of working 9-to-5 at a register, it's like your skin leaves greasy trails of stress wherever it touches (Or if you're working at a well-known fast food restaurant as I also was once, greasy trails of grease). Maybe I'm just a spoiled brat. Then again, this sort of thing has been brought into a court of law-there was an aspiring policeman (in upstate NY, IIRC) who was not offered a job by the local force because he had scored TOO HIGH on an intelligence test, the reasoning being that he would become restless on the job and lose focus walking the beat hour after hour. My immediate reaction was to dismiss this as ludicrous, but there is a slippery grain of truth in it, somewhere…maybe.
Again, not sure what that has to do with the idiot-kids argument. Guess I'm just saying that it's common to lament how stupid everyone else is, but the alternative Einstein society would be quite an upheaval from what we know now. Bringing back the genetics argument-it's not happening anytime soon. (Treading lightly here…) On average, the less-educated and poorer (again, not necessarily less intelligent or cultured, but--) have a birth rate significantly higher than the well-educated, possibly more wealthy segment of the population-the folks who favor a lot of the things discussed on this board. Are people just breeding themselves stupider? Someone before mentioned population control. It's a good solution. Hell of a lot better than any deservedly nasty idea like eugenics. If families across the spectrum had, say, 2 kids per, everything might balance out eventually. The new golden age?
I'm well aware that most of this is hypothesizing, extrapolating, and so on. Still, it's worth mulling over, no?
Back from a long weekend in Morro Bay, and ready to pipe up again.
Alex, thanks for defending me after I challenged your observations about the e-monkey. See, we're civilized here? Ain't it grand? I confess, in retrospect I think your comments hit close to home. But I've made more friends on the Web, and higher calibre friends than I would have ever been able to acquire in the wastelands of mediocrity. As in everything, balance is the key.
And no, you're not the only Danny Elfman junkie. I love his stuff. Hell, it's not a Tim Burton film if it hasn't got that certain sound to it. Edward Scissorhands and that haunting chorus, prime example.
Anyone else here seen Planet of the Apes?
Kevin, re: Blue Man Group and the CD "Audio". Listened to it all the way back down the coast yesterday. Great driving music. And if anyone's interested, I wrote a review of their show in Vegas on my website, http://www.digitalcarrion.com. If you ever have a chance to see them, don't pass it up.
Harlan~ Your comments on the average American consumption fiend were greatly appreciated. After having had my night at the movies ruined yesterday by a pair of "groundlings" (and I can think of no other word for this pair of animated afterbirth), your words hit home. Amazing that people are willing come to physical blows over something that most would consider to be common courtesy.
And Justin, I don't think that over-population has anything to do with it. Two examples, Japan and England. Two very crowded countries that have each evolved a culture that is painfully polite in some instances. I think your observations about instant gratification and an overblown sense of entitlement are much closer to the truth. There is no shame involved anymore, no fear of consequence, no regard for others. And I am increasingly at a loss as to how to function in this society, where nothing short of the threat of unrestrained violence will make people conform to a minimum standard of acceptable conduct.
L.
Justin - be careful what you wish, growing old always happens faster than you think (at least in hindsight)....
Interesting comments all around about the ignorance of modern youth. Harlan’s post instantly reminded me of a quote I first read in one of his books. I believe it was on the dust jacket of Edgeworks 3, in fact. I’d dig it out and reproduce it here, were it not for the unfortunate fact that I have already packed my books. Wah. The quote was from Yashinsky, I believe, and it was about how a person need fear neither his enemies nor his friends, but only those who have allowed themselves to become rotten with indifference.
Anyway, I have a few observations I’d like to make, as a young person, on the subject of our modern Ammurican youth. Let me preface these observations by saying that I haven’t been around long enough to be able to say with any degree of certainty how much better or worse things were before I got here. Furthermore, I was always hesitant to make the assumption that my generation was so much more bone stick stone stupid than previous generations. I didn’t want to allow myself to be victimized by the “grass is always greener” syndrome. I didn’t want to make the easy assumption that the world was a better, smarter place before I landed in it. I knew enough about human history to know that most of it had been about as pleasant as a napalm body wash, and I didn’t want to just assume that somehow my generation found itself in a particularly sorry state. It just seemed too easy for me to assume that I was growing up with the biggest lot of slavering morons this country has ever produced.
Last year I was sitting on the porch with my grandmother, and it suddenly occurred to me to pipe up and ask her a question, out of the blue. I asked her, “Gramma,” I says, “Was the world a better or worse place to live when you were a kid?”
She seemed a bit surprised by the question, and answered only after a long, thoughtful pause. “Oh…well honey, I think things are a lot better now. I suspect we had the same amount of crime back then, you just didn’t hear about it as much. And we have a lot of new medicines, and people generally live a higher quality of life.”
I asked a few other older people about this, and the answer I got was always very similar. But I soon came to suspect that these folks were thinking that things were better simply because of the new technological advances, relative peace, and economic prosperity that they were able to enjoy. They were insulated retired people, who had no personal experience with the problem currently plaguing us. The problem, of course, being the quality of the youth of this country- the ones about to take over the whole dadgum shootin’ match. I don’t think any of the older people I spoke to about this had much contact with the boneheaded, media-saturated, slavish dunderheadedness that I was forced to contend with on a daily basis. The same morally substandard, thoughtless, zit-faced hordes that caused me to ask the question in the first place, “Is the human race somehow devolving?”
At this point I’d have to agree that a lot of these kids today are some of the saddest sacks to ever walk the earth. Keep in mind- I don’t think I’m any better than anybody else. All I know is that I make an active effort to turn myself into a decent human being every day, and most of my peers don’t give enough of a damn to make any such attempt. So I do think I’ve earned the right to gripe, just a tad. Also keep in mind- I have lived in seven states in twenty years, and went to four different high schools in two wildly different parts of the country, so I have had a unique exposure to the generation that I’m standing here accusing of being a bunch of dolts.
I was reading a book recently called THE SELFISH GENE, by Richard Dawkins. The version of SELFISH GENE I read had last been revised back in ’89, and it said at one point that if population expansion continued at its present rate, then it wouldn’t take more than a few hundred years before we reach the point where people, packed in a standing position, could form a solid human carpet over the whole continent of Latin America. He went on to explain that in 2,000 years, the mountain of people, traveling outwards at the speed of light, would have reached the edge of the known universe.
Hokay…so here we have a human population that’s just exploding all over the goddamn place. Those are some pretty startling statistics, and I know that Latin America isn’t the only place where overpopulation is a major problem. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s a pretty damn big problem pretty much anywhere human beings have chosen to situate themselves, yes? Certainly my generation was the first in this country to face such overcrowding in our schools, and I think it is natural for a person in an overpopulated environment to become very self-important and self-centered, almost as a survival mechanism. I think that’s happened to a lot of people my age. Concurrently, we grew up in a world that’s seemingly getting smaller and smaller, thanks to communication and transportation systems that are linking every corner of the world to every other corner in ways that few people would seriously have thought possible twenty years ago.
I think it is entirely possible that what we may have right now in this country is a “cesspool of imbeciles,” heaps more than there have ever been before thanks to this population explosion business, and they’re all connected to one another in a society in which many individuals are paradoxically disconnecting. Disconnecting from reality more completely than humans have ever been able to before. Think about it- how many people are hiding away in this country, in complete physical comfort, racking up credit card debts as they frantically spend and spend and spend until they are sure that they are in no danger of spending another millisecond of their lives un-fufilled and un-entertained? Lots, right? I think so.
I think I am a member of a generation that has been raised by parents that were able to indulge themselves way too much. I think this attitude of self-fulfillment at all costs has been passed down to us by our parents, but also by the media, if for no other reason than it makes the dissemination of bad ideas to idiots a helluva lot easier. And it gets easier and easier with each passing day. With each passing wireless cellular phone internet billboard television newsmagazine talk show day. I mean, you can’t take a crap anymore without someone wanting to advertise something to you while you’re on the damn pot. And what is advertising if not a blatant effort to get people to indulge their whims?
I’d like to make one thing clear, though- I’m not saying that I, and all other members of my generation, aren’t responsible for our own stupidity. I mean, we *could* be using all this technology and all the resources at our disposal to better ourselves, but we aren’t. Not usually, and that’s a personal choice if I ever saw one.
Anyway, it is late and I will be forced to leave it at that. I may be way off base, and if I am, I hope someone will put me straight, or offer up even better ideas. But I think this is a good discussion and I wanted to add my two cents (though it turned out to be more like a buck seventy five, sorry about the length of this screed).
And to all a g’night.
Justin Sluyter
p.s. I can’t wait to be an old man, so I can sit out on the porch in my rocking chair yelling at the neighborhood children, and griping like this, all day long.
Alex J and Cookie - Additional listings of "Stringsville" for sale: a stereo copy at http://www.the-record-collector.com/Jazz_K_and_L.htm for $35 in M-; a mono copy at http://www.musicbaron.com/jazznblues.htm for $75; no authorized CD release as yet; and yes, Virginia, there is one currently listed on E-bay by Atomic Records in Burbank, no bidders, six days to go, opens at $5.00, there is a reserve, and if I hadn't just picked up a pair of tickets to Diana Krall's show in Harrisburg on the 17th, I'd probably be bidding on it myself. This is the best I can do with all of my tendrils currently tucked in their beds, but should anything else turn up on my screens, I'll send up a flare if interested.
Re: Mr. Ellison's and Mr. Van Gessel's comments - What's interesting is that, as folks like Paul T. Riddell have pointed out, everybody thinks you're talking about somebody else (he says as he tries to pry the word "hypocrite" from his forehead). Punks blast one band while talking about how much, like, that other band just sucks, y'know? even though the two are all but indistinguishable; skiffy fanboys treat Star Wars like a holy tome committed to film while logging on and anonymously flooding Star Trek message boards with "StAr TrEk SuX!!!!11"; allegedly literate people poo-poo Danielle Steele while devouring the latest from Steele's male counterparts, Crichton and Clancy; it goes on and on and on, the one thing connecting all of them being the assumption that _they're_ reading or watching or listening to the Good Stuff, and everybody else is just wasting their time.
I'm not guilt-free, either, as I just implied. I hope there's no permanent damage from all that 80s guitar rock I listened to until a while ago, but I'm not sure. (And, speaking of which, I need to go CD shopping. I'd like some strings pieces, violin solos, that sort of thing. I'm up to my armpits in upbeat, up-tempo--acoustic guitars and bodhrans and pennywhistles and suchlike--so something melancholy would be nice. Any suggestions?)
~Jeff
Hi I liked that post about youth jerkos.
I was watching the Weakest link and it was just the opposite of its title. They would always vote off the strongest smartest person who answered all the questions so they wouldn't lose later when they had to compete with em. Its pretty much a microcosm of general human nature /insidious pavement pouring corps if you ask me. You'd think it wouldn't be like that with intelligent peeps/ scientists progressing the culture with all those inventive innovations but the problem is that curiosity gets noses so far into the books and projects that it is easy for survivalist money maker devilchilds to take advantage and use invention for creeper purposes like milking the depressed public, desperate for soothing and satisfaction. Press the button for a quick fix, these are Americans, a people who always and easily get what they want. These empty pampered people want to be filled with a sweet candy. Life is too easy. Too bad there is not a circle of hand holding moral lawlayers always with the right judgement and in endless ultimate power and also maracas duct taped to sticks dishing out tough love to the spoiled. There is just too many people now though, not everyone gets the attention they need - considerably less than a tv star who is the alter ego/roll model for the masses. If as a people we are used to getting lots of attention, lots of cars, lots of mileage, lots of food at hand, then anything less is unacceptable. Welcome to the world of gluttony and deprivation panic.
-the fat round blubbed out cortort
ps I am still reading Again Dangerous Visions --read the time travel psychiadelic masterbater story this morning. I don't have the book on me and could not find a list of titles and authors anywhere online, not even on this harlanellison.com website, so... anyways, it was a good story reminded me of Sprague L. DeCamp's Lest Darkness fall if written by Stephen Gaskin & Basketball Diaries' Jim Carrolls.
Doh! I feel foolish. I check the main page every single day to see what's been updated, and if nothing has been updated I go on my merry way (since I've spent hrs at the site and devoured all the articles and interviews and stories and archive). So today I say to myself, "Self? Why don't you check out that message board?" And so I did.
What an ass I am. Not only is this a great board, but I see HE himself is now a frequent visitor. I'll be a regular visitor now too...
Jeez, why didn't I check out the board sooner? As Q would say to Bond..."Pay ATTENTION 007..."
Bob Sassone
http://www.bobsassone.com
God, what a gift this message board is. I really enjoyed Harlan's Monk recommendation--I'm a fan, too--as well as his comments re: "Life is not a comparison of Chamber of Horrors." Those few paragraphs were packed with more wisdom than a cart full of books.
COOKIE: There's a copy of the re-release of STRINGSVILLE for sale at http://www.jazzmanrecords.com/jazzman4133/harlook.html for twenty-four bucks, and another copy somewhere on a Japanese website for either 7800 yen or 7,800,000 yen, or seventy-eight dollars; I can't tell.
Maybe we should set the Finder a task?
The closing sentiments in my last post were, frankly, my mimicry of a hopeful soul, that Alex and the two friends of mine (at 20 and 21, respectively, who can ACTUALLY talk about artists, like Matisse and Dali, authors like Joyce and Salinger, and political issues abroad, as WELL as Grung; they may be exceptions but a few years ago I just never met anyone in those relative age ranges capable of uttering much beyond grunts) don’t feel that I dismissed them as part of the prevailing cultural erosion. I am NOT being simplistic. The majority across the country could still be just as lame and I've had a ruthless attitude about it for a long time. Being an asshole has always been part of being a teenager; BUT when I was competing with MY adolescent peers we were aggressive about knowing things besides the hottest party trends. Whether black, white, Asian, or Klingon, we read, we debated, we were curious, we put more stock in science than in the fancies of religion...and THEN we partied. I WILL add we had to fight the brain-numbing presence of TV, which I believe, among numerous factors, contributed to the steady erosion we see today (miracles of the eighties, like the Yuppie trends - this Republican-driven "all out for yourself" shit - didn't help either).
My key argument is we need to constantly hammer this problem into everyone's awareness circuits to gradually replant the inquisitiveness it takes for growth of broader, learned minds.
As Homer Simpson gloated with a smile of victory when they wanted the kids to learn about and see Michaelangelo's David: "They're FORCIN' em!"
Cool! Thanks for the rec. I'll try a couple of my audiophile friends.
Did Tal Farlow play the violin? I didn't know that. Tal is one of my very, very favorite guitarists!
Cookie and Alex K.:
I am about to turn you on to a thing that you will never forget, that will roll your socks up and down . . . if you can locate a copy.
Monk is one of my passions. Heard him play live at the Five Spot, the Showplace, the Village Vanguard, and other venues, in the '50s and early '60s. My favorite Monk composition is, predictably, "'Round Midnight."
And the best version of it---after Monk's original, of course---appears on an Atlantic album (circa late '50s) by violinist Harry Lookofsky titled STRINGSVILLE. The number of memorable jazz violinists beyond Grappelli and Joe Venuti and Stuff Smith and the occasional piece by Tal Farlow (and one other famous one, whose name has fallen out of my head just when I need it) can be counted on the fingers of one hand with enough digits left over to pick your nose.
This, as far as I know, was Lookofsky's only pressing as a leader, though he was a much-valued, much-hired, much-respected studio musician and first violin in several world class symphonic aggregations. How and why this offbeat album was cut, I have no idea. But when Atlantic released it, I gave it a "highest recommendation" in my jazz columns and in reviews for METRONOME. It is, simply, breathtaking. Haunting. Imperial.
If you two enjoy Monk, then take it as your life's work to locate a copy of STRINGSVILLE. You will honor me for the advisement.
(And to all those of you with an unquenchable egalitarian mien--much like the one I sported for fifty-plus years--who think that "babyboomers" shouldn't be dissing today's dunderheaded tots because YOU were vapid in YOUR teens, well, as I've said repeatedly, LIFE IS NOT A COMPARISON OF CHAMBERS OF HORROR!!!
(Just because YOU were shallow, does not make the emptiness, surliness, arrogance, cultural illiteracy, violence, fatheaded antics, outright ignorance, blatant stupidity, and random disrespectful belligerance of today's punks any less objectionable, any more pardonable, any nobler or permissable.
There is a qualitative difference, as well as a quantitative one. Things ARE worse. More jerkazoids, and the level of jerknicity asymptotically higher than a cat stranded in a belfry. Even in the '60s and '70s, when addressing a high school or college crowd, I could expect a level of understanding and curiosity and cultural ethic that today would get such kids a place on The Weakest Link or Who Wants to be a Badly-Informed Millionaire. Today, the plague sowed by rock'n'roll as religion has taken its toll. Kids are, in fact, dumber, less informed, less literate, and snottier about it than they were in times before The Gap and MTV and the dynamite pr of this week's shitty movie blockbuster. They are a corrupted constituency mesmerized and potty-trained to be nothing more glorious than conspicuous consumers of seasonal faddish food and tune and clothing, to want nothing more than a Lexus and partypartyparty; and it is only the anecdotal exception--such as Justin, who is ANYTHING but a punk--that keeps me from pressing the red button to blow every one of the orally-challenged little pismires to Kingdom Come.
(Stop excusing the rampant cultural moronicity just because there were shitheads and dumbkopfs and assholes when YOU were in high school. Remember what it felt like to NOT be one of their ravenous clique? Pre-Columbine horror situations. Remember?)
These are the soulless doofuses who go to work for rapacious law firms like Latham & Watkins. Who buy acromegalic SUVs to show how big their dicks are. Who litter without a thought. Who see no Big Picture, see no Little Picture, see only their own avarice as worthwhile. Who have everything, but are still riddled with umbrage. Who cannot accept responsibility for their actions, much less their lives. Who know nothing, but have never had a star shine in their eyes, or a dream illuminate the arid wasteland of their inner moral desert. They were ignorant and amoral as an asp when they were kids, and as adults they are as free of ethical imperative as aluminum siding.
You excuse them, you let them off the hook, at your peril. Nathaniel Brazill was not unique.
Yr. pal, Harlan, who daily grows more pragmatic as the darkness creeps toward him.
Rob: I'd like to assure you that your optimism in the last paragraph of your post, when you said you hope today's teenagers possess more maturity and a greater sense of culture than those in the Eighties and Nineties, is not ill-founded. It's just, well, I was a kid in through the latter half of the Eighties and most of the Nineties, and I don't know what teens were like back then.
Just one question: where they really so bad as to make the people with whom I've had the misfortune to attend high school for an eternity or two are considered an improvement? In anything?
~Jeff
Alex, did you mean "Brilliant Corners" by Monk? Great tune. I researched, transcribed and arranged it. It's an interesting piece.
Alex,
It has ALWAYS been a problem, each generation getting its head caught in its own cultural vacuum; it's even more disgruntling when racial or ethnic stereotyping rears its head in that vacuum. It's one thing to lack information. It's another when you presume you're in touch with your cultural base, your roots, and judge someone of another ethnic group on the basis of that presumption - but proving that, in fact, you don't know shit.
Listen, man, that guy was being cocky, there in downtown LA - that I was totally into "white", that I wasn't into black music and therefore knew nothing about being black (which is TRUE, I don't know what it is to be black anymore than I know what it is to be Asian or Dutch) but, in fact, there are masses of black artists, musicians, writers, and thinkers who had given me a lot of inspiration when I was a kid and still do. That's because I was subjected to some of our past while I was growing up; I wasn't around when most of those guys lived.
But I don't think your assessment of the situation is entirely on the mark. One, though EVERY generation is marked by the same problem (and I come in JUST after the baby boomers, myself) I CAN say that a larger number of more recent generations seem to know far less about prior history than older ones; when I was a kid, my peers, even in ELEMENTARY school (that was in the mid-seventies), were talking about issues and the stark realities of history - including matters of what was "heritage" and what was theft; who was being deprived and who was hogging the benefits. "What is past is prologue", as it goes. How many among the present generation know that prologue? I've talked with quite a few and they couldn't seem to get passed anything that didn't have to do with MTV, raves and rap (to be fair, I DO have two friends who are in their very early 20's and are much more informed and open-minded than that). It's a damn implosion. I think you oughtta be more pissed about that than the generation gap being criticized.
Secondly, the point I was making in my earlier post is that we need to become more aware of how culturally insular we get so easily. (Listen, teenagers of EVERY generation, as you'll eventuallly understand, are butt holes. MINE was no exception; I was an asshole too. This is not a situation about the older guy hooting, "ya young, fucked-up whipper snappers; when I was yer age I never done talked back to m'elders"; presumption is a strong characteristic of being a teenager). But there's a world outside our own. We're also easy cattle for the advertisers and markets and lawmakers when we know less. IF each generation is going to be into its own thing it should at least have the adjunct of knowledge to avoid naiveté. That's a bridge usually up to the parents to provide, a fact that gives credence to the detachment and ineptitude of the slightly older generation too (as you were inferring; on that score you're TOTALLY right). The more insular one generation is, logically, the more fucked up those people will be in their later years; naturally, they hand the voids down to their offspring - the next generation.
In the final analysis, I'm saying that you're right about older generations too. But the summation is that people, younger and older, need to become more aware of the problem. However, to underscore ONE more point, that would-be rapster guy I talked to was several years ago; he's older than these two friends I mentioned. It's possible that the most recent generation - say, high school kids - are emerging with slightly more mature attitudes than, say, the high school kids of the eighties and early nineties. You see, I have to make sure that MY attitudes don't become too insular as well.
Check out today's NY Times for far better writing about multiculturalism in American art than my scrawl of last evening. I find this to be a thought-provoking article.
Freedom! Break free; be free!
I think Art of all kinds brings freedom with it.
Okay, okay, so the kids today ain't got no culture. It's true, I don't deny it. What bothers me a bit about these comments is that I always hear my generation muttering along these lines, and, damnit, neither did we. I squeak, of course, of the Baby Boomers.
Harlan wrote, in THE GLASS TEAT, of finding reason to bless television when a waiter in a restaurant sported a t-shirt with the words "Rick's Cafe American." For all the boob tube's manifold flaws, it did help maintain the past. Where else, in those pre-cable, pre-VCR days, would this youngster have seen "Casablanca?" Bubelahs, Balbatim, that's not kids, that's _us._ That's the boomerbaby generation, the self-absorbed coterie that invented sex, proclaimed the church of pot-smoking, and outlawed tobacco. Think our generation has cultural depth? Hah!
Whenever someone challenges me on my skepticism regarding astrology, I point out that I'm a twin. My sister, born five minutes ahead of me (pushy, even then), raised with the same enormous family library, educated at the same schools, holder of two degrees, reads a book as often as twice a year. During the OJ trial, she stretched out and read _three!_ We've got the same sign? Hah!
I know boomers who talk about today's damn kids, but who wouldn't know Also Sprach Zarathustra (except for the main theme, for obvious reasons) from the Moonlight Sonata. This year, they know Dizzy from Satchmo because they've heard the gospel of Ken Burns. But it won't last.
In 1995 or 6, Harlan told me his great "Lost Horizon" story--and how it was totally lost on the staff of White Wolf publishing, where the oldest member of the staff, publicist Kim Shropshire, was several years shy of thirty. Delighted, I repeated the yarn to my wife....who said, "What's 'Lost Horizon?'"
Yeah, the damn kids don't know nothin' today....but are the boomers in a position to talk?
Okay, I'm feeling cynical today. My older daughter asked what I had playing in my office this morning, and my wife said, "More of daddy's weird music." It was "Bright Corners" by Monk. Faz baz.
--Just ranting, Alex
One of my favorite singers is the idiosyncratic Kate Bush. Not only does she have a four-octave range, she writes literate, imaginative lyrics. Who else would base an entire song around James Joyce's Ulysses? Her voice is an acquired taste for some but even her occasional failed musical experiments are at the very least, interesting.
Oh, I don't know, Harlan. You've been awfully chairitable toward this punk.
On the subject of film scores- perhaps I'm guilty of poor taste, but I think the BLADE RUNNER soundtrack is the bee's knees. Also, is it just me, or does Michael Mann in particular do a really good job of making certain his movies have really appropriate, interesting soundtracks (I'm thinking primarily of his last three films, THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS, HEAT, and THE INSIDER)?
J
Harlan,
Fuque'em: yes, the universal language in absolutes, even in ancient Athens.
I deserved that fudge in my face for I sensed beneath't allll that "Marie" wasn't IT: MARIAN, I'll never get it wrong again, honey, I know I done it to ya b'fo'.
YYYep: add that to my correction tape. My mother had corrected me on the name twice in the past; there's a glitch in that circuit somewhere. The lady deserves better. For some time I've wanted to get a CD with her work to cope with days that get steeped in stress.
Cookie,
Don't know how I managed to leave out Mancini; Pink Panther, and a mass of other scores, they ALL sizzle.
oops! My bad. I see it was not Robison, but Still who was copped by WB. That actually makes more sense to me.
William Grant Still is a very underrated and underknown composer. I hate it that some folks still persist in the myth that We Americans have no culture. We have great culture borne of a multiculture. We're just as screwy, or moreso, than any other "empire" in history, but I cannot buy that we don't have a culture. I believe that "modern" American culture (as opposed to ancient and indiginous American Indian cultures) are notable precisely for the borrowing and sharing of musical ideas among cultures.
I believe that Jazz music itself is the classic example of this: in jazz you find harmonic and formal aspects of Western European music (functional harmony, song form, march form, etc) coupled with African approaches to melody, harmony, form, and most notably, rhythm (bending pitches, expressive growls, shouts, declamations, "blue" tones, micro-tones, call-and-response, syncopation, and poly-rhythms, etc.). We see it today in the mainstreaming of Latin musics and Asian influences.
Being a musician, I by necessity relate to culture musically, but I see it in other American arts as well. The artist in the Americas tends to signify with art, IMO and since American stories and life histories tend to include influences of other cultures, American culture is strong BECAUSE of its multicultural, impure, improvisatory nature.
Don't know why I went there, but heck, let's flow with it.
What is the name of that GREAT William Grant Still piece?? All I can think of is Street Scene, but I could swear the piece had the words 125th and Lennox in it.
Mind like a steel sieve.....
I was not aware of Robison's association with WB cartoons and Stalling! Wow!
"Old Folks" is a gorgeous song. I haven't come across T's recording of it, but now I'll have to hunt it down. Teagarden is one of my very favorite singers. I love that version of "Rockin' Chair" he does with Louis Armstrong on ---what?--- a Jazz at the Philharmonic thing, I think. That stuff is such great music. I'd be in heaven if I got to work in a GOOD trad band three or four nights a week (leaving the other nights free for hard bop and other sundry and diverse wonderful musics!)
I've been working on "Old Folks" because my piano player likes the tune (keep the musicians happy and they'll keep you on the bandstand).
I like Elfman because he writes quirky.
When I think of Williams, I think of stuff by Elgar and Holst. Don't know why but I do.
Elmer Bernstein is a fun soundtrack guy. Didn't he do the music for "Animal House"? I love the music in that.
And DON'T forget Hank Mancini. That man has written SOOOO much beautiful music.
Jazz CD collection tip: speaking of Oliver Nelson, his recording "Blues and the Abstract Truth" is a must-have.
PS: Alejandro: Man! I need to go back and get a day-job just so I can put my ears on all the stuff you're recommending. Instead, I think I'll compile a list, take it to the local library, and suggest that they consider purchasing some. That way, the whole community can share.
I *LOVE* the library and am fortunate to live where there are good ones!
Right now, I'm listening to the music from the bell tower at Cornell while my love watches Fawlty Towers in the next room.
Cacaphonous bliss!
Rob: Amid all your posting-corrections, you omitted the one you
needed most: her name was MARIAN Anderson, not "Marie."
As for teenagers of ANY color who judge their betters and their elders (not always the same) by the amount of contemporary crap on which THEY are gulled into spending their money . . . yet know absobloodylutely NOTHING about anything cultural, trivial, historical or philosophical that happened before they lit the horizon with the effulgent arrogance of their inconsequential and transient existences, well, in the words of Demosthenes:
Fuque'em.
Not feeling very charitable toward punks and assholes, I remain, MOST respectfully, yr. pal, Harlan
Ah, fer chrissake!
My personal correction tape for my last post:
1) "...this black teenager several years ago..."
2) "...earlier generations wouldn't know shit..."
There, dammit!
Thank y'much, Boz Harlan:
Robison was precisely the man; I'm certain of it. I WILL be scouting him out. Gradually, I have plans to build a jazz collection - most of the emphasis being on R&B. (Blues, in particular, absolutely grips me - I'm helpless when I hear it).
Since we're on the subject of black artists, Marie Anderson's voice - particularly when she sang that piece (hint for "please help me with the name of that piece") for FDR - is unmatched by ANYONE'S. My mother (who I lossed last year when I didn't think it was possible), who didn't know a damn thing outside of classical music but knew it very well because it was once her profession, admired her highly.
Here's a quick interesting tangential story: I locked cultural boxing gloves with this black teenager a several years ago who prodded me with, "you're not into black music, ARE you?" Because I'd rattled off names like John Lennon, the Stones, Pink Floyd, and so on, he was certain my head was wedged in the vacuum of Whitey World...and I'd be foolish to deny that, to a degree I couldn't estimate, it was probably true; you stay in one kind of environment and the result is inevitable (being AWARE of that is the trick). Anyway, when I replied, "Sure I am: Lester Bowie, Dizzy Gillespie, Muddy Waters, Otis Redding - those are people I've liked a LOT", he responded with, "who are THEY?" He'd never even HEARD of these guys! Well, at least he was being honest, but it annoyed me because what he MEANT by "black music" was RAP. He didn't seem to know anything else, and through that tunnel vision - though TRUE, I don't like rap, it's not a form that talks to me like Blues does - he was trying to judge ME and what I was all about. Further, when someone labels something as "black", they do seem to leave out black WHERE? Black in Britain is different, as it is in France, as it is in Japan, as it is in Africa. Man, when we get disconnected from our roots we DO get disconnected; it reminds me of the scenes in Lorraine Hansberry's great play 'Raisin in the Sun', when the daughter thought she was connecting with her African roots only to find out that she didn't know shit culturally. Once we deprive ourselves of the education - not necessarily a FORMAL one - we identify ourselves by our own cultures WAY too much. We become insular.
Blues and Jazz mean a lot to me, and I myself have much to learn in both - MANY artists I've to learn and explore - and I WILL. They ARE on my agenda.
You see how much those old Warners cartoons serve us? We of earlier generations wouldn't no shit about our black cultural heritage if it weren't for them!
Rob: I believe you're refering to the legendary Willard Robison, who wrote, among others, "Old Folks." The best recording of which was a trombone/vocal version by Jack Teagarden on the second of two Verve pressings where T did
great interpretations of a number of Robison hits.
Now if you wanted the contemporary CLASSICAL black composer WB swiped from, his name was William Grant Still. His music is available.
Harlan
P.S.
An error in spelling.
His name is Alessandroni. Not as I misspelled it.
Alessandro Alessandroni.
Try TRINITY GOES EAST on Hexacord. That would be CD. Hexacord HCO-03. Websites at www.hillside.kirion.net and at www.hexacord.com. Original motion picture soundtrack album TRINITY GOES EAST. Copyright 2000.
Quote from the liner booklet: "Mr. 'Whistle & Guitar' (as he's affectionately called by some of his close friends) is one of the most versatile and gifted composers and performers . . ."
and ". . . listen again to those magic and terrific sounds he created in the sixties for Italian Cinema."
Let your ears do the detective work.
Not at all happily, yr. pal, Harlan.
Hey, Mr. Church:
You may have screwed up a tad about Morricone having won the Oscar but I think ALL of us were seduced by the complex Carl Stalling music in those old Warners cartoons; it was SO integral to their insolent personality. A lot of it was jazz from a black composer who'd written great stuff around the late 20's, early 30's - which I didn't know until a couple of years ago when they were talking about it on National Public Radio. I do NOT remember the man's name. Some of you Jazz aficionados here may know who that was.
Mr. Church: Morricone has never won an Oscar, though nominated multiple times.
You probably all know that I am a frequently outspoken admirer of Morricone's work; that, in fact, I've written liner notes for one of his albums, and that I own more than 400 Morricone vinyls, tapes and CDs, ranging back over more than thirty-five years,including many unreleased scores, such as the lovely music for WHAT DREAMS MAY COME that was rejected by the snotnosed arriviste director, a young punk shithead from Australia.
Thus, it is with some concern that I impart the purposely, intentionally obscure intimation of exceedingly disturbing, previously confidential information as to the actual authorship of much of the vast oeuevre bearing Morricone's name. The confidential information comes from a highly knowledgeable and trustworthy source close to the matter, and I am being VERY VERY and purposely enigmatic in suggesting only this: if you are a fan of Morricone's work, as am I, you would be rewarded if you purchased recent releases by two men who worked with Morricone in his "golden period": their names are Alessondrini and Bruno Nicolai.
Ask me no more about this. But if you're curious, let your ears do the detective work.
Yr. pal, Harlan.
Actually I was introduced to classical music through Warner Bros. Bugs Bunny cartoons. Now that is some stuff that sinks into my collective childhood memory. Too bad Bugs and Tweety have to be tainted by the corporate ink of it's parent company, or should I say companies!?
But for my money Ennio Morricone is the man when it comes to movie music. John Williams is fine but tends to ape other composers instead of having a certain voice. Morricone really adds drama to any moving image, be it a shoot out or a slow pan to a sensual female shoulder. It was good to see Morricone win the Oscar.
Whoops, guess I tipped everyone off to my ultra-conservatism. I am fifty-seven years old and I only saw "Beetlejuice" (with its naughty, naughty words) because I thought it was about astronomy.
Heh.
Ah, gimme a break, the movie came out in 1988. I was seven!
Susan/Harlan,
The SLEEPLESS NIGHTS arrived safe & sound.
Thank you very much.
John Q.
Just popping in to defend John Williams. In my opinion, he is a great composer and still continues to create wonderful music (even after the eighties).
Compositions from Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Amistad, Sleepers, Seven Years In Tibet, and The Patriot enhance those movies for their presence. They stand on their own as concert pieces, as well.
Musicians such as Yo-Yo Ma and Itzhak Perlman have said they are honored to play for him. The man is certainly one of the premier composers of our time.
Someone also mentioned Shirley Walker. Excellent composer for Batman: The Animated Series. It's too bad they chose to go "techno" with Batman: Beyond, as her orchestral music was truly a work of art. Check out her score for Batman: Mask of the Phantasm if you can.
Howdy, all. Some of you might remember my name from the Ellison newsgroup, where I didn't post very often. Just pokin' my nose in to see what's up, that's all. (Looks like I missed a decent discussion about A.I. Oh, well.)
To my unspeakable embarrassment, it occurred to me, forgetting to read my last entry before posting it, that the word "appellative", I THINK, only applies to a proper noun - like, say, Rousin' Robbie!
I don't think it's a qualifier that applies to objects or aesthetic descriptions. That occurred to me a few seconds after hitting 'Send Message'. Feelin' humbled and stupid, I just didn't wanna get me ass bit.
David,
As you know, I’m not one to get hung up on a trifling subject. But since we discussed scores on two films by Ralph Nelson I feel I should reword my take on one of ‘em; the appellative "rousing," which kind of stirs images of happy cowboys leapin’ about, may have given the wrong impression about the jazz in ‘Duel at Diablo’. Hefti, who was an outstanding composer, did use an exhilarating electric guitar but underlying it was sheaths of sad melody, eliciting a sense of tragedy. Indeed, the characters in the film are bonded by loss, emptiness and the destruction they bring on themselves. That’s why the score works so well as a foreground component. It WAS kewl, but it was also, to apply YOUR word for the Shankar score, lovely; I'm tranfixed by its complexity, and its FEELING, whenever it's on. Try and locate the movie and put it on sometime.
Just felt a little clarification was in order. Whatever the case, it is the only western in history to have a jazz score.
Scott: I highly recommend Bill Hicks ARIZONA BAY, available from Ryko. Also available is RELENTLESS, RANT IN E-MINOR, and DANGEROUS. He was a highly respected member of the Stand-up community, and has been called brilliant by such people as Dennis Miller, Brett Butler, and David Letterman.
Amy: I'm curious as to how you define 'Edgy'. The reason I ask is because nowadays, with so much edgy comedy, its a term that really gets thrown about quite a bit.
Tammy
Thrown out of the very group you started, eh, Amy? A prophet without honor, and all that.
On the subject of soundtracks, Rob mentioned Carmine Coppola, Francis's Dad. I know he played a role in the scores of Godfather II and III, but the piece of trivia that really sticks in my memory is that Carmine scored "Tucker," and Francis played tuba on the soundtrack!
As for Shankar's soundtrack for "Charly," it doesn't stick with me either, even though I have the album. It's not tenaciously jingle-style music, or rousing stuff. I't just refreshingly lovely, like the film.
Michael's first encounter with the F-word was "Beetlejuice." Hmm. Maybe it was "Woodstock" for me. Although "Alice's Restaurant" was my first R-rate movie (I didn't have to sneak into anything; my folks TOOK me to those); did the F-word turn up there?
Kevin McElroy said, "Thanks for the heads up on "SHTOONK", but now I have another question; does "THWAP" end with one or two P's?"
Well, now, you're getting into some of the finer points of furshlugginer communication. The number of p's depends on the context, Kev. If a fresh fish is hitting the kitchen floor, it's a one-p THWAP! But if it's a rotten fish ... or a 2x6 board striking a spy(black or white)'s kisser ... then it's more likely to be a two-p THWAPP!
When Don Martin died a year and a half ago, there were some heartfelt regrets voiced (someone said "we shall spliff no more") in a discussion list I belong to, devoted to the extremely esoteric 1970s British progressive rock band Gentle Giant, after which we had a spirited debate over what sound he made when he departed....
Alex, yes, your concerns are wise. Internet addiction is turning many children into a nation of goggle heads. I notice, at the public library, that kids sit online for hours in those mind numbing chat rooms. Many of these chat rooms are nothing but brain dead kids talking to brain kids about nothing of note.
But this room does at least have a intelligent slant. I don't see posting in here as any more harmful than writing an email or a regular letter. Ellison's contact with fans is served by this room but I do think it is best that all of us keep our postings to a minimum of one a day or less.
The internet does serve a wonderful purpose: Informing us on the news that is censored from the mainstream press, and connecting people around the world with needed informantion about current events and ideas. Also note, that people in small towns need the internet to help them research-when librarys are regularly small in those burgs. But corporate America is trying to keep the web all to themselves, to try to make us into a world of "shoppers", instead of a "community".
Activist and spoken word performer, Jello Biafra has a good quip about the net. Jello thinks the net is becoming like the CB craze in the 70's. Let's hope it doesn't go that far!
Linguist and amazing social critic, Noam Chomsky has a forum, where he responds to an amazing amount of questions from posters. I would say Chomsky has no problem answering all these questions plus writing the amazing boatload of books that seem to appear all the time. But if Harlan needs to chill, I say do what thou wilt Sarge. But don't leave us alone in the cold. This damn thing can become addicting, but it is good to see thinking people on the web for a change. Viva Tha Revolution!!
The discussion of movie music and Tykwer/Potenta movies leads to an interesting bit of convergence. The score for "Run Lola Run" is about the only electronica that I can listen to. That, and i think it is one of the best film scores of the '90s. Fits the movie perfectly, especially since a lot of it is like a silent movie - basically footage of Lola running or contemplating.
Holy gadzoley Betty Spaghetti, David! Talk about synchronicity 2. You mention Tykwer's second film with Franke Potenta... I just saw it tonight! (The Princess and the Warrior is the translated title). Really enjoyed it and agree with your description, especially the cinematography (which had some similarities to "Run Lola Run"). Personally I found the pace a bit slow at times - the film is long at 2:15 - but that was my only niggly complaint. Potente was brilliant in both films.
To paraphrase Michael Corleone, just when I'm about to get out, this board pulls me back in.
Kevin: Good to know I'm not the only one who grooves on Albert Elms. Love his jazzy irony in "The Prisoner" and have even tried to track down some out-of-print films he's scored.
Film composers in general: The two greatest living film score composers are Ennio Morricone and Jerry Goldsmith. Both are amazing workaholics who still continue to enhance dramatic environs to this very day. John Williams I could do without. The last appropriate score he created was for "JFK." Even so, the score in question was essentially base jingoism.
Joseph,
Oliver Nelson. THAT was it. Yeah, he did the arranging on Last Tango. Didn't know about his passing. Too bad, he was very good.
Kevin,
Though you're absolutely right about Elms on The Prisoner (a great soundrack overall; a LOT of jazz), there were occasional contributions from Grainer too. Once you hear Omega Man you can tell what was his. But, sure, it was mainly the theme he was known for.
I'm a fan of the first 5 episodes of LIS. The series was the first of its kind and was exceptional in theme because outside of Robinson Crusoe on Mars it was the only dramatic take in film on survival against the natural elements of an alien environment. It was a plight. (Three early episodes shortly thereafter have exceptional quality; the rest of the series is awful: My Friend, Mr. Nobody,' written by Jackson Gillis, who later worked on Columbo; 'The Sky Is Falling', an essay about cultural miscommunication and mutual survival; and 'Invaders From the Fifth Dimension'; I should add that a couple of writers who later worked on Star Trek wrote some of these. Result: aliens didn't speak English like everywhere else, you don't locate planets with a breathable atmosphere by accident, the ecosystem of the alien planet has a mutational relationship between plant and animal life, as they discover in lab tests. A shame: the series had vast potential). AND I do have a close love relationship with Smith ("That is PRESICELY what is wrong with our civilization...EVERYONE is a specialist. Whatever happened to the Renaissance Man?") and the Robot (best design in film anywhere). Anyway, I think the score Williams did on that show is among the finest anywhere in ANY form. It was multi-layered.
I like the Blue Man Group too.
Joseph,
I'm totally PC oriented, even in graphics. But I may yet have to adapt to the Mac. Used one intermittently about 5 years ago.
Rob,
According to the IMDB, the theme music for "The Six-Million Dollar Man" was composed by one Oliver Nelson, who died of a heart attck at 43 in '75. He was also the music arranger for "Last Tango in Paris."
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
Hmmmmm. I'll bet that was YOU I saw squirmin' passed me in the days I was a door man. I'll see YOU in detention, man.
A couple more notable film composers (obscure but excellent):
Jim Helms' score for the old Kung Fu series.
The BEST thing about The Six Million Dollar Man by far was its score. HIS name is eluding me right now, but he actually worked on the famous music in Bertolluci's Last Tango In Paris.
Gil Mille on Kolchak: The Night Stalker.
The most brilliant "needle-dropped" score in the tube's history is the old Superman series with George Reeves. Eeeevocative stuff. The gritty first season, especially.
Delayed memory moment; Albert Elms was the other fellow whose name I couldn't remember (who contributed music to "The Prisoner") from my previous posting. It popped into my head just now.
Regards,
K.
Kevin,
Oh, I've seen the Pentium 4 ads. I just liked the original Pentium 3 ads better (especially since that 4 orange is hideous).
Joseph,
Blue Man Group is now appearing in Pentium 4 ads. Only one on the tube so far, that's probably why you haven't seen it yet.
Regards,
K.
Kevin,
I'm totally with you on the Blue Man Group music. I admit to being disappointed when Intel introduced the Pentium 4, because I enjoyed BMG's Pentium 3 commercials so much. And I'm a Mac user!
For those of you have not yet experienced Blue Man Group, they're playing in New York, Boston, Chicago and Las Vegas these days. Highly worth catching - it's like watching cats play with string like it's an alien object.
David Loftus - Thanks for the heads up on "SHTOONK", but now I have another question; does "THWAP" end with one or two P's?
My two cents on film scores, Williams is overated after Star Wars. On a sentimental note, I liked his TV stuff (Lost In Space, Land Of The Giants)quite a bit. I dig Elfman, Barry, Morricone (who killed "Big Sky" music in westerns,Tank Gawd!)and I love Bernard Herrmann. Herrmann's later work is a testament to how an artist's creative powers can improve with age. Grainer's Prisoner theme is great, but he didn't do any of the scoring for the show itself. Two other composer/arrangers (Wilfred Josephs is one, I can't remember the other guy's name) did the marvelous incidental music and fanfares. They also provided great adaptations of classical and ragtime jazz pieces that helped create the intense atmosphere of that show.
Those of you who work or write to music (most of you,I'm sure) I must commend to your attention the CD "AUDIO" by Blue Man Group. Great instrumental music with a focus on percusssion. If you've seen their TV ads for Intel Pentium or have caught their live act, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Regards,
K.
Rob,
Michael's probably around the same age group as me. After all, the 1st R-rated movie I snuck into was "A Fish Called Wanda." Hey, at least I had some taste in my choice.
David and All:
For any lame oversights, errors, omissions, etc. Just bare in mind I was still a bit smashed from earlier in the evening. A pathetic, inebriated lowly animal. We go wit' dat. OK? Huh?
Having said that: I was trying to pull Nino Rota's name out of my memory circuits when I brought up the Godfather, I just couldn't seem to yank it out. At one point I had Carmine Coppola in mind, but that was on Apocalypse Now, another one I'll throw in (that may be my favorite war film of all time, btw).
I'm with you totally on Jerry Goldsmith...his best stuff is outstanding, Twilight Zone included. The one's that really "score" with me, that come to mind right now, are Man From UNCLE (btw, I think it was Lalo Schifren's orchestration of GOLDSMITH'S theme that the public came to know so well; found that out by watching UNCLE on cable recently), Papillon, Planet of the Apes, certainly Chinatown.
Blasphemous as it sounds Ravi Shankar's music in Charly just didn't stick with me, interesting as it was.
Thanks for filling in the blanks for Midnight Cowboy; Fred Neil was another name I was trying to dig up, but I knew he was there. The entire remarkable soundtrack is owed to a crosspoint of talent: Barry, Neil and Nillson.
Funny thing about John Williams: he did one memorable score after another throughout the 70's - almost another Bernard Herman (my guess is he drew influence from Hermann) but since Star Wars he's fed us NOTHING but forgettable over-bloated, amorphous stuff.
Re: Danny Elfman. Like him a lot. I was an Oingo Boingo fan. I went to Ervine Meadows three consecutive years to see them, and had a terric time. When he scores film though, I find the results a bit mixed, frankly. Sometimes I like him, sometimes I don't.
Amy,
I've wanted to see that film about R. Crumb for some
time.
Michael,
BEETLEJUICE was the first movie where you heard the word "fuck"?
Jeezus, man, what's yer problem? (g)
Harlan, I heard about the Buckhead Dante's (sad!), but I was under the impression that the underground Dante's was still going strong...am I wrong? Or is the one in the Underground not as good?
amy
Harlan,
That's how I felt when the greatest hot dog stand in the suburbs of Chicago, Irvings in Wilmette, burned down a few years back. Thankfully, they rebuilt.
David,
Thanks a lot. Now I have that damn "Courtship of Eddie's Father" song stuck in my head at ear-splitting volume.
PEOPLE LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY BEST FRIEND!
Regards,
Joseph
For Harlan, regarding online addiction:
You don't understand it until you've had it. I guess that's why I felt a little flicker of "ha ha, NOW you know" when I read your posting. You see, I was one of those people who lived online back when you were famous for your disdain of The Internet.
The big change of opinion comes when you find a group that is literate, witty, and shares your interests. I remember MY first group, which happened to be on AOL. We had a private chatroom, in order to avoid the mindless babbling Rick demonstrates so well in his faux chatroom here in Webderland. For the very first time in my life, I found myself with a group of people who knew and liked Lenny Bruce, Tom Waits, Firesign Theater, Lights Out, Hitchcock movies OTHER than "Psycho" and "The Birds," people who read books that never even registered on the New York Times bestseller list, and a few of them even liked this guy named Harlan Ellison.
This is it! I thought. Mars IS Heaven! And "our" bulletin boards and "our" chat started eating up my time. Actually, since AOL was an hourly service back then, it ate up my time AND money. (How'd you like a monthly three hundred dollar AOL bill?) It was worse than television--it was more like "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?" There they were, the perfect partners and companions, and all I had to do was turn on. I let my friendships with "real people" go, because things were easier online. I stopped eating, sleeping, and my writing suffered tremendously. I didn't write anything that wasn't meant for my online audience. So I do, I truly do understand what you're going through, though you have a very very mild dose of the sickness. It's scary when you feel compelled to do something that goes against your nature, isn't it?
Then, it all went to hell. Politics! When someone says I can't say something because it will shake up the infrastructure, f*** it. Words were exchanged, things got ugly, mistakes were made. I wound up being ostracized by a group that I helped create. Call me Snowball.
And yet, it wound up being a GOOD thing. I went back to real life. I went cold turkey from the whole online gig for quite a while. When I eventually re-introduced it into my life (because you WILL miss it), I had my priorities straight. An easy way of finding out who your friends are online is to split, and see who still keeps in touch outside of the group. I have three, from a group of more than sixty.
I no longer post ANYWHERE except Webderland. This is a happy home, and the bullshit really does seem to be kept to a minimum. It's a nice diversion. But it's something you should do when you have free time, not something you specifically make time for. That being said, I do hope to see you again, when you have time to spare.
A little embarrassed about revealing my utter geekiness,
amy
To Amy and/or Others contemplating a Dragon*Con get-together:
Dante's "Down the Hatch" in Atlanta, a fondue restaurant of extraordinary wonderfulness . . . and one of my all-time favorite restaurants anywhere . . .
Burned to the ground after half a century.
Late last year.
Gone.
Now you know how I felt when friends called from Atlanta to tell me.
Sadly, Harlan.
Holy Cow! Talk about synchronicity! I saw a film last night whose trailer I had seen three or four times in recent weeks, and while the trailer wasn't particularly misleading about the movie's plot and moods, there was something else I saw to complain about. Part of it had to do with the soundtrack ... and here you are, discussing soundtracks and composers!
The movie is Tom Tykwer's latest with Franka Potente (they both worked on "Run Lola Run," a helluva a RUSH of a film, and Tykwer also did the fascinating but cold earlier film "Winter Sleepers"). In contrast with "Lola," this one is slow, languid, but visually sumptuous, engaging, and somehow filled with tension despite its languidness. If anyone wants a plot summary, I'll do one (the film is DEFINITELY worth seeing), but I wanted to complain about another trailer problem: the previews have a terrific song -- I suspect it is Potente herself chanting the lyrics over the cool but driving rhythm track -- that does not appear anywhere in the movie! A little more disturbing, the trailer includes a brief shot of the ending, which somewhat diminished the suspense since I was obviously not seeing the shot all along the way through the rest of the film.
Rob and others listed a bunch of composers and memorable soundtracks. To give credit where it is due, most of the "Godfather" music -- in all three films -- was done by the great Italian film composer Nino Rota. Coppola probably discovered him through the movies of Fellini, for whom Rota composed since the beginning of the 1950s. My personal favorite is the score to "Amarcord," richly romantic and sentimental.
I tend not to love movie music that blows me out of my seat (you can keep "Star Wars" and Indiana Jones) but before he started doing bombast for Lucas and Spielberg, John Williams did a wonderful Western score for "The Cowboys" -- great sweeping theme, weird and woozy music for the psychopathic villain played by Bruce Dern. Another fine Western score is "The Undefeated" (John Wayne and Rock Hudson, 1969) by Hugo Montenegro.
I'm astonished that no one's mentioned Jerry Goldsmith yet. He started composing for television in 1948, did a lot of TV (Gunsmoke, The Twilight Zone -- not the theme, that was Marius Constant), and then hundreds of films, from Seven Days in May and Planet of the Apes, to Chinatown, The Wind and the Lion, Logan's Run, Poltergeist, Magic, Gremlins, Hoosiers, Alien, Basic Instinct, LA Confidential, Air Force One, and The Edge.
He caught my ear at 10 with the score (and rousing theme) to "Patton" (I have it on vinyl) and a year or two later with "Tora, Tora, Tora" (snuck a reel-to-reel tape recorder into the theater at 11).
Rob mentioned "Charly" for its director, but neglected the lovely score by Ravi Shankar (I have the vinyl). He also mentioned Nilsson in connection with "Midnight Cowboy," but Nilsson just did the vocals for "Everybody's Talkin'," which was composed by Fred Neil. (Nilsson did other film music, though, such as "Popeye" and "Me, Myself & I" -- a 1992 Jobeth Williams/George Segal movie -- and the music for the old TV show "The Courtship of Eddie's Father").
This is a recommendation, not for a particular composer, but an entire soundtrack: Crumb. While I'll never entirely buy into R. Crumb's "everything but this is crap" feeling, listening to this soundtrack is a very welcome break from the world of electronica.
amy
Rob, re:movie music as background v. foreground. A few years back I remember Betty Davis relating a story (as only she could) about one of her early movies in that she told the director that it was either her or the music (the conductor's or writer's name of the song I've since forgotten as well as which movie) who/that was going to walk down the flight of stairs in a particular scene, but not both. The director assured her not to worry that it only she would walk down the stairs w/o the music. You know the rest of the story--she of course was lied to. Most of the time I find the music intrusive (this comes from a part time musician) as it attempts to portray the mood I should be feeling. (Much like a laugh-track is suppose to tell me when a scene is suppose to be funny) The music nowadays in a movie is almost numbing as it covers the entire length of some movies. Music should be used to emphasize or jolt a scene. (a'la Psycho's shower scene, Jaw's dudududu for the shark)
Lynn:
Gypsy music…I am afraid that is one of those genres I have yet to explore. The works of Natasha Atlas and Les Negresses Vertes is the closest I have come as far as Middle Eastern music is concerned.
Alas, so much music…so little time.
Strangely enough, I have become, in the last year or so, a huge fan of Scandinavian music thanks to the excellent work Twin Cities' label North Side Records is doing in releasing the music of such groups as Garmarna, Sorten Muld and Hendningarna here in the States. What is to me the most fascinating aspect of these Scandinavian groups is that they, like Brazil's Moreno Veloso and Mexico's El Gran Silencio, are pushing the boundaries of their country's traditional native musical idioms without diluting their essence at all. Everybody is going back to their roots and creating exciting new music out of those roots.
re: Choad
Snicker. tee hee. (I'm in college, I can laugh at that...)
Curious, though, because in the past, people I know have confused the meaning of this word. Is what you looked up online the 'proper' definition (having to do with a certain proportion) or the other (IMHO incorrect) one: choad = "grundel" or " 'taint"
I feel guilty about dragging the board through the sewer like this, but I don't know anything about music--- well, I will agree that the Beetlejuice soundtrack (like so many things about the movie) was excellent.
Loss of innocence note re: Beetlejuice: First time I ever heard "fuck" on the screen. (I believe the line is "Nice fuckin' model!")
The world being a strange place, I find myself coming to Lynn's defense for her message clouting me upside the head. Lynn, you did misinterpret what I was trying to say, but it was not a totally unreasonable inference. You were stepping up to defend him against what seemed a demand that he perform on command, and I commend you for standing to his defense. (Which is not to say I don't appreciate those who came to my defense. Thanks, guys!)
Rest assured, I don't think Harlan owes us anything--not more work, not his presence here. That's what I was trying to say, however ineptly. And you'll be happy to know that while I don't have every word he's ever written, I do have over 40 of his books, including, Lord help me, bedraggled paperback copies of "Rockabilly" and "Ellison Wonderland." With the exception of the new anthology and "Medea," I've read 'em all, cover to cover. In most cases, more than once.
Now then, on film music: Am I the only Danny Elfman junkie in these parts? Yes, his music is intrusive, often commanding more attention than the visuals and story in the film, but, dang, ain't it _fun?_ I was unaware of Elfman until my wife and I took in "BeetleJuice." The opening theme grabbed me and yanked me right out of my seat. Elfman is the only composer whose credit line gets me into a theatre even if I've little interest in the film.
--Alex
ROb,
I'll be presumpteous and amend your list a bit:
James Horner for Star Trek II (especially the Mutara Nebula sequence, which is a lovely redux of World War II movie music - though for the life of me, I can't remember how Run Silent, Run Deep goes).
Bernard Herrmann, to me, achieved real brilliance with his dissonant score for Taxi Driver. A truly unsettling score.
Finally, the New Batman/Superman Adventures, so far the best adaptation of comics on screen. Now that's a theme song! The IMDB doesn't list who exactly wrote the score, but it's one or more of these three: Kristopher Carter, Michael McCuistion or Shirley Walker. Besides that, the show had some fricking brilliant vocal work. Kevin Conroy was and still is brilliant as Batman. Somebody needs to tell the IMDB, thought, that Darkseid is not spelled "Darkside."
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
COOKIE: Have you read Steinbeck's THE NOBLE ACTS OF KING ARTHUR AND HIS KNIGHTS? It's his faithful retelling/translation of Malory, unfinished because he had the bad grace to up and die mid-project.
Still, the tales he did finish are well worth the price of admission--and included in the book are his letters about the project, showing a human side of the writer. You'd be surprised how much he agonized over writer's block and whether he was writer enough to do the Arthurian tales justice ...
HARLAN: If I may again remind you of things you've said:
"And if you promise to stop NOW, Cookie, I'll come b ack and relate CHAPTER TWO of:
PORTRAIT OF THE AUTHOR IN FIERY SMOKING HELL!!!!!"
Cookie's done with the evil sticks and my quit date is still the 31st, so pony up, please?
It is my understanding Harlan is into a lot film music. Though rule books try to dictate that the score must remain a background component of a movie and not impose itself, frankly I like it when it draws attention to itself. It becomes like a co-star. My favorite rock bands aside, I’s a sensitive ear ‘cause m’ma was an Opera singer before she’d destroyed her voice with alcohol (I wasn't even four yet when that happened). I was subjected to quite a range of music when I was a growin’ boy.
I saw Harlan on Tom Snyder once breakin’ up his buddy with his high pitched rendition of Good, Bad and the Ugly. Well, I’m with him on that one. I revere the piece. Morricone had practically reinvented the film score. Before he came along just about every western had a lame soundtrack - blaring, unimaginative, with literal emphasis on every action scene.
After Leone’s epic almost every western was layered with evocative affecting scores. One of the most peculiar and KEWLIST was a western starring James Garner and Sidney Poiter called ‘Duel at Diablo’ (directed by Ralph Nelson who did Charly later on). Neal Hefti (Odd Couple fame) did a bitchin’ rousing jazz score using an electric gee-tar and heavy percussion; absolutely beautiful rhythm. For the most part it worked. Dat score vas a co-star!
Switching genres, one of my favorite film composers of all is Niklos Rozsa. There are his obvious landmarks like The Lost Weekend and Lust for Life, marked by his characteristically frenzied, neurotic style, (another great one was The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes) but a film he really endeared me to, in spite of its flaws, was George Pal’s underrated (according to ME) sf ‘The Power’. The pulsing theme played throughout the movie made use of a frenetic xylophone (accompanied by chilling telekinetically controlled heartbeats). Dat score vas a co-star!
For some of m’other everlastin’ faves, my personal Oscars go to:
Max Steiner for Kong and Treasure of the Sierra Madre.
Frank Skinner for the Rathbone/Holmes movies in the 40’s.
Obviously, Bernard Hermann for Vertigo, North by Northwest and Psycho.
Leith Stevens for War of the Worlds.
Russel Garcia for The Time Machine.
John Barry for the Bond movies and Body Heat.
Nilsson for Midnight Cowboy.
Obviously, Coppola’s Godfather.
All of Kubrick’s stuff since 2001, deluged with "needle droppings". Alex North for Spartacus as well.
Dominic Frontiere for The Outer Limits.
Alexander Courage for Star Trek.
Ron Grainer (another jazz composer) for The Prisoner and The Omega Man.
John Williams in both his Lost in Space days and for Jaws (I’ve hated him since the early 80’s, though).
Barry Gray for those British Anderson shows like UFO and the film Journey to the Far Side of the Sun.
Tarantino's needle droppings in Pulp Fiction.
Same goes for Glory, with Denzel Washington.
David Shire for All the President’s Men and Taking of Pelham One
Two Three.
The 60’s Spider-Man cartoon by Ralph Bakshi.
All of the Beatles films and Pink Floyd’s The Wall (I’m kinda cheating there, since those were about music anyway).
If you’re wondering why I haven’t anything better to do than spit this masturbatory list at you, our boss took us out for drinks after work earlier this evening because of her daughter’s birthday. I’m just climbing off the Bourbon centrifuge...right now my pc is a recovery ward.
Alejandro~ You seem to be very widely "listened"? That doesn't sound right. Hmm. Anywho, I think you get my meaning. Any recommendations for Gypsy music? I have discovered a taste for Middle Eastern (Turkish, Egyptian, Morrocan, anything by Hossam Ramzy) music and it seems there is an interesting crossover market, of all things. I was introduced to an artist called "Alabina" who sings in Arabic with a Spanish lead vocalist and backup group, and the fusion of the two cultures is nigh seamless.
Just curious if you had done any listening in that realm.
L.
Oh, cookie, do I have a couple of suggestions for you, then. Get thee to a record store and buy a copy of Moreno Veloso's "Music Typewriter" and Caetano Veloso's "Noites da Norte". Moreno belongs to a new breed of young Brazilian artists who are giving the bossa nova and the samba a more modernist, futuristic spin by subtly incorporating synthesizers and loops that enhance and complement the traditional rhythms without overwhelming them at all. It's a sweet, sweet album. And with "Noites da Norte", Caetano goes back to his more daring tropicalista experiments; as equally innovative as his son's album, "Noites da Norte" is a beautiful musical collage of Afro-Brazilian rhythms, warped electric guitars and electronic whirls. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. Then there is "Milton & Gil", the ifrst collaboration between MPB legends Milton Nascimento and Gilberto Gil. A sublime album, indeed. If you really wanna throw a party at your place, you will not go wrong with Daniela Mercury's "Sol da Liberdade". And then there is Marcio Faraco's Ciranda" and the music of Chico Cesar and so much more…
That should really get you (and any Webderlander willing to try out new and exciting sounds) going for awhile.
Unca Harlan? I wanna hear your story 'bout how you kicked the habit. When you're done with your stuff, I'll come and sit at your feet 'cause I love to hear you tell a story. You're the best!
I've been out of town for a few days and can hardly catch up. I'm psyched to learn that there's more Jay and Silent Bob in the works, though!
trying to send a message to our beloved webmaster, Rick:
(threadeddiscussionthreadeddiscussionthreadeddiscussionthreadeddis...)
love you guys! Wish I had more to add to general discussion,but all I seem to be doing these days is mothering, gigging, reading and surfing. And my reading material these days is a little odd: am reading "The Sword in the Stone" (an abridgement of White's "Once and Future King". It's okay, but to tell you the truth---and this marks me as a dweeb for life---I far prefer Mallory's "Le Morte D'Arthur." Much spicier) and a wonderful history of Bossa Nova by Ruy Castro. It's nice to learn more about this wonderful music that's brought me so much pleasure. I'm trying to learn Portuguese just so I can sing the music properly!Bossas and sambas, Brazilian popular music in general, are some of the most beautiful sounds to emanate from the Americas in the twentieth century, IMO.
Bye, kind Webderfolk!
I will be at Dragon*Con, so count me in. I can't wait to meet you all!
Saved by the power cord. Okay, since Dragon*Con was brought up again, I'd like to know how many people from Webderland are planning to attend. I really would like to plan some sort of dinner-type thing (Philly cheesesteaks if you INSIST, Harlan...ick). If there won't be many of us there, a place like Dante's might be fun.
If someone more familiar with the Atlanta area has a better restaurant suggestion, speak up, please!
Regarding movie trailers, here's one use for them--if an animated feature shows only split-second scenes, LOTS of quick edits, the animation is invariably crap. I can pick a Don Bluth film from a mile away, whether he's mentioned in the trailer credit listing or not, because he ALWAYS uses this technique.
amy
Lorin--your mention of popcorn-flinging made me think of Halloween. We always judge how well we've done by how much candy is scattered around the porch by fleeing trick-or-treaters. Did I mention that scaring kids is fun? Or that I'm evil?
Rob--Thanks ever so for your rendition of "Beware of the Blob." That damned song will be in my head for days now. And I just got rid of the Little Orphan Annie theme.
Mitch--isn't Hazlet the site of the very first (now dead) drive-in movie theater?
People who are looking for smart and edgy comedians might want to check out Eddie Izzard (if you haven't already). As for those who were down on Robin Williams' comedy--you must not have seen his bit on "Whose Line is it Anyway?"
oopsie, battery is dying.
amy
David,
You've said pretty much everything I could about movie trailers and the studio executives' crappy evaluation of audiences. Just a couple of notes:
1) Do rent "Muriel's Wedding." It's worth your time. Toni Collete is a fine actress worthy of your attention.
2) I do like two current trailers: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" and "The Others." I know the basic formula for a Kevin Smith movie, so I see things I like in it. Of course, they have to attract the people who aren't going to automatically see the movie. The trailers for "The Others" just creep me out (not to mention that I'm intrigued by the director).
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph talked about the uselessness of movie trailers. This is a problem, although some of them these days are so obvious that you KNOW you've just seen everything there is to enjoy in the movie and don't have to waste your time on the whole thing (e.g., "Gone in 60 Seconds").
What bothers me -- both as surface irritant and as a deeper sociological concern (because of what it suggests about the American populace, or at best, what film companies THINK about the American consumer) -- is misleading and mendacious trailers: previews that lead you to believe you're going to see one type of movie but you end up with another.
Fortunately, this doesn't often mean the trailer turns out to be much better than the movie (at least, that hasn't been my experience; but then, I rarely go to action thrillers and sci fi features except on cheap second run). Usually, it means the movie content has been "dumbed down" so that the trailer makes the feature look lighter, funner, frothier than it really is.
I think of two strong examples: "The Nasty Girl," which came across in the trailer as a sexy comedy about a student who sleeps with her teacher (with only incidental violence and tension), and "Muriel's Wedding," which