I fervently hope that Mr. Ellison wins his fight against the unauthorized posting of copyrighted materials to websites. The implications should he lose are quite troubling.
Amy,
Anyone who is Simpsons savvy and willing to ingulge Joseph's Sumo rants is, I assure you, an elevated sole - er - soul.
Amy,
Japanese sounds good, if you're willing to walk me through what the hell I'd be eating. I've managed to never eat at a straight Japanese restaurant.
Joseph
Justin--Planet of the Apes broke the goofy-meter for me about halfway through. I didn't really EXPECT a whole lot from the movie (remakes tend to stink), but I loved the series as a kid and wasn't about to miss a new one. I enjoyed the first half an awful lot, too; it was really disappointing to see the second half nosedive. This one goes in the bad Burton file. Oh well.
Joseph--Maru is NOT my favorite, but hey, he can still beat Takanohana once in a while! Akebono was my favorite, but now I've got my eye on the new kid, Asashoryu...sure, he didn't make kachi-kosi in the Nagoya basho, but he's a BABY! (Hey...since it looks like you're the only other one from Webderland making it to Dragon*Con, how about hitting a Japanese restaurant? My husband is a sashimi monster & I need practice using chopsticks.)
Finder--See, I'm thinking that being different is the norm around here...so none of us should give anyone much hope for the future. We're the freaks. Kinda bleak. But, for all the hell I had to go through (probably the same you did), I agree. Wouldn't change a thing.
Ray - I don't know - I'd hate to be the team that loses a world series to the Cubs after such an interval. In the case of the Yankees, it would probably mean George fires EVERYONE - which, while really lowering the payroll, would make for a hell of a rebuilding year...
Amy - Typical? Nope. I was a quiet one - read a lot, worked a sports beat for the local paper, didn't party much - hell, I didn't start drinking until I was a junior in college. And what I would consider the "typical" teens around me ran roughshod over me for my difference. But while I didn't like my peers, I look back with a great measure of satisfaction on who I was, and all the very cool things that my being different got me - a brief but very cool meeting with the late Cus D'Amato, my byline, my scholarship, my seat on the girls varsity basketball team bus (opting to be a scorekeeper instead of killing myself to make the basketball team got me the corresponding job with the girls squad, and made me the only guy who got to ride their team bus - otherwise known as Nirvana to sixteen year old Finder.) - and I wouldn't change a thing. Viva la difference!
Lynn,
Thank you for your insights.
I have seen Planet of the Apes. I saw it the first day it came out, and towards the end, I thought I was going to be able to leave the theater happy. I thought I was going to be able to tell all my buddies that I saw some really solid sci-fi monkey romp action. But nooo, the film suddenly plummeted into blatant, moronic incomprehensibility and lost me completely. I almost feel personally insulted when I go to see a talking ape picture, and am willing to go along with that premise the whole way through, and then I am given no choice but to disconnect because something "incomprehensible" happens. You really have to try, as a filmmaker, to do that to me, and I'm awful pissed at Mr. Beetlejuice. Besides that, the lovely Estella Warren was in the movie for about two minutes and had a total of about two lines. Just criminal.
Rick,
Not be a gnat, but any chance some of the board could be archived. It's running about 750 kb right now, and takes a long time to load even on DSL.
Regards,
Joseph
Amy,
Right on! Let's have more discussions of whether Musashimaru should have been promoted to Yokozuna position.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
A centennial Cubs/Sox World Serious in 2006…awfully good! Except we’ll need a different outcome. If memory serves, weren’t the 1906 White Sox the original "Hitless Wonders"?
Lynn: Indeed. A sure sign of the apocalypse if da Cubs win da series.
Oh, and Rob? I get every single one of your Simpsons references. I'm not sure if that's fun or frightening.
First off, the Yankees stomping the snot out of any team brave or insane enough to try 'em in the Series is a given. I have now reached my baseball interest overload point, but if anyone is into sumo wrestling, I'm there.
Getting back into the "youth of today" fray (sorry, I missed yesterday's meeting), I have a question for everyone. Did (or do) you consider yourself a typical teenager for your generation?
Ray,
C'mon. Cubs/Yankees? Of course, it would be exciting if the Cubs were there. But the Yankees? Now a Cubs/Boston series - that would be exciting (evem if I now officially hate the Red Sox more than ever).
Of course, the ultimate would be a re-match of 1906. Hmmmm....2006 isn't that far away.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Anyone know how convenient Turner Field is from the Atlanta Hilton, in terms of public transportation? I haven't been able to find a web page for Atlanta's subway system.
Matt~ Very well put. One of the wonders of evolution is watching the new culture plow under the old, an Ourobourus that recreates itself anew, seemingly unaware of its ancestral influences.
Rob~ It's only a conspiracy if the FB's are NOT responsible for the things we accuse them of. ;)
Ray~ If the Cubs win the Series, isn't that one of the signs written of in Revelations?
L.
"If the CIA did half the things we accused them of, we might actually be getting our money's worth."
Finder: Although the Cubs playing against the Red Sox, hell against anyone, in the World Series would be tremendous…can you possibly fathom anything bigger, anything more humongous, than a Cubs/Yankee WORLD SERIES! I do believe the universe its-own-self would grind to a screeeeching halt to watch that one. Hold on please, I need to take my medications now.
Susan, received my copy of Sleepless in pristine shape. Mahalo, Colleen
Ray - I've been a Yankee fan from day one, and I can honestly say that if my boys stumble and fall, there are only two teams that I'd like to see go the distance instead: the Mariners, because they're having the kind of year that begs for a big exclamation point at the end (and because that would be ultimate vindication against a certain former shortstop's (and his agent's) remarks in Esquire back at the beginning of the year) and the Cubs, who deserve to ease the burden of 93 years worth of broken hearts.
Actually, a Red Sox/Cubs series would be, at minimum, four of the most interesting, intense, nerve-wracking nights in baseball history.
John,
Nah, nothin's scathed. To my advantage I'm bilingual: I speak english and grunt. So, when needed, I can interact with humans and subhumans with equal effectiveness.
Further, the benefit of being a member of this board, once you have your membership card and you've said your vows and you've dragged the Stone of Shame, is that you are equipped with a single-frequency cell phone (kept in the heel of your shoe), and if you get into trouble, with but one quick call, Harlan himself or his henchmen (all in berets) will come to your immediate aid, charging in like the Light Brigade, pummeling your adversary to a pulp and dumping their carcasses into choice places like the East River or Santa Monica Bay (no WONDER they're so polluted).
(I understand a healthcare policy is going to soon become part of the package, too; the doting altruistic fingers of the Harlan Ellison Board reaches out to the needs of all its members; YOUR problems are HARLAN'S problems).
...so what color is YOUR secret cell-phone? Mine is rouge.
I don't think kids are hungry enough anymore.
Again, parents are afraid to say no, afraid to step in and generally leave the job of education up to the professionals. The professionals, in turn, point back at the parents and guardians and say,"How do you expect me to teach this brat of yours? All he hears at home is how stupid teachers are."
Public schools: I'm glad we have 'em, but it isn't reasonable to expect them to do the entire job of educating and raising a child. The school is there to provide parents with a resource for the education of children. I believe that it is the natural responsibility of parents to educate their children for survival in their environment. This was true when Og taught little Magog to toss a spear efficiently and it is true today when my husband and I read to and with our children.
It has been great that my children learned to read and write in school. Saved my husband and I time. But we reinforced the importance of reading and writing at home. They see us reading, we read together. Then we talk about what we read and what we think.
Sometimes I fear that sort of interaction is not going on in other homes.
Of course, we killed our cable yesterday (after a year, we decided it wasn't worth it for us)and my kids and I are listening to Edith Piaf. So, I guess my spawn are sort of destined to be twisted dweebs for life.
Oh, well. Mama tried.
Just pickin’ nits:
Lynn, it’s truly worse than you thought…the Cubs ain’t won the World Series in 93 years. I know, IT IS hard for a rational mind to comprehend, but the gutwrenching nightmare may be coming to an end. As Harry Caray said once upon a time: "The Cubbies are coming, tra-la, tra-la.
Pennant Fever Ray
Rob, I stand corrected. And I do realize I may have a warped perspective living in Las Vegas. We have a lot of...hmmmm...interesting types here. Being a Midwestern boy, born and bred, they sometimes freak me out. Sorry to hear you've had a couple of encounters with unsavory individuals too, but you seem unscathed...which is a good thing. Can't afford to lose any members of one of the most entertaining, informed, enlightened bulletin boards on the net.
Matt,
My hat is off to you. You zeroed in on every point except the one I was trying to make.
John,
I crossed a few of them in the gym, but I'll take you to task on two points:
One, Cro-Magnon is too advanced; they are found to belong to the genus Australopithecus.
Two, "the rude guys who attempt to intimidate others," who I had to argue with, who I was occasionally nearly forced into fist fights with, whose primitive guttural grunts I had to hear, and who in those moments ruined my focus when I was working out were in older age groups as well as younger. And for their postures they had some semblance of a strut - certainly what THEY conceived as one. Too many people are simply a pain-in-the-ass to begin with.
So, uh, Lynn:
'They'...sounds like the latest remake of 'Them'.
I missed the scene where the 2nd Amendment fell. You may have to fill me in on that one; maybe that was the director's cut.
And I am wearying of the furry banana being the scapegoat, believe me.
I am tired of listening to "Kids these days" arguments.
Just because a college student doesn't know who Jackson Pollack was or likes "black music" but doesn't know who Otis Redding was does not mean that he/she is culturally illiterate.
They have their own culture. Why is yours so much better?
Do you think that there's only one way to learn how to live a life? Do I have to listen to only classical music and read only classic literature to enrich myself and expand my cultural boundaries?
Let's not make the mistake of saying that the art that we learn from is the art that all must learn from. Let's not assume that lessons can be learned only one way or delivered only one way.
There is NOT a "lack of culture" in society today. Culture is NOT dying out. Culture is NOT becoming "moronic."
Pop culture, an huge delivery device of knowledge and lessons for ALL generations, changes form and language with each generation. Just because you may not understand the language of a given generation does not mean that is stupid (or smart).
People are not getting dumber. Succeeding generations are not so much different their preceding generations. The trend of society as a whole is quite constant, actually.
Do you think that the kids wearing WWF T-shirts today are any different than the children who scrawled Latin graffiti on the walls of Herculaneum boasting about their favorite gladiator?
Each generation will find a voice. Rest assured that each generation will have it's bad apples, it's stupidity. So, in this day and age, with it's Internet and Cable TV, it's a bit more prevalent. We see it more often, because it's in our face 24/7. That doesn't mean it's dumbing us down as a species. That does not mean we are de-evolving. (What a concept!)
There will always be ignorant people. There will always be informed people.
Give the human race some credit in the advancement of intellect. Just because mass media sometimes shows us the "dumber" side of humanity doesn't mean that everyone is getting dumber. And just because you don't understand a college freshman's fascination with "The Real World" doesn't mean that he/she is not learning valuable lessons of psychological diversity.
Rob, Rob...don't act coy. You seem observant enough. Surely you must have seen at least a few of these would-be Cro-Magnons walking (nay, strutting) around. It's as if their minds are so underdeveloped that they must overcompensate by building their bodies up to grotesque proportions. Understand: I have nothing against bodybuilders, peole who have an honest interest in working out. I'm talking about the rude guys who attempt to intimidate others in clubs and on the streets. It's a phenonomenon that seems born out of current ignorance.
Besides, I've always believed a truly secure man doesn't need to strut. Word-of-mouth beats a self-conscious performance any day.
I personally believe that the death of culture and civilization in today's world can be blamed on one thing and one thing alone.
THEY are the reason your children can not read, THEY are the reason your politicians are for sale, THEY are the reason that Jesse Helms is STILL ALIVE. THEY are the reason that the Second Amendment has already fallen, THEY are the reason HIV/AIDS is endemic, THEY are the reason that Disney makes billions of dollars by warping the hearts and minds of our youngest and brightest. THEY are responsible for the violence in the Middle East, THEY sabotaged the peace talks in Northern Ireland, and THEY were the author of the tragi-comical Florida Elections. THEY are why the Cubs haven't won the Series in over fifty years, THEY are why the Bills have never won the Super Bowl, and THEY single-handedly masterminded Dennis Rodman's entire image.
They are insidious connivers, they are pervasive manipulators, and they symbolize everything that is evil and unholy in this day and age.
Two words, my friends:
Furry Bananas.
Warn your friends and loved ones. It's not too late to save yourselves.
{This has been another public announcement from Tongue-In-Cheek Production Ltd. We now return you to reality, already in progress.}
John, John...even I strut.
And to those of you who think the way we of a slightly older generation excoriate you of the younger for "losing" it is comparable to the way this happens between EVERY generation, bare in mind we have a litmus test disproving that:
Harlan told us about the many years he's visited college campuses across the country. He's talked with throngs of young people from generation to generation first hand. He's in a position to compare the relative inquisitiveness and knowledge about topics (aesthetic, political, historical, scientific, and so on). He's able to compare you guys to those of comparable age 20 years ago. Y'see, it seems they knew something besides the hottest new bands.
This isn't a matter of an older generation trying to suppress the odd form of cultural rebellion, as the generational wars of the past were usually about (when I was in my teens we usually put up with, "those fuckin' know-it-all kids"). This is an implosion. In past decades, youth rebellions often opened forms forms of free expression that hadn't existed previously - opening eyes that were once shut.
Now religion is stronger than it's been in many years - its tendrils trying to reach into as many areas of our lives as it can; high school kids are blowin' each other away; your knowledge valves are closing; hell, I'll even blame you for the reason movies suck so much these days. This is hardly an improvement in civilization. In some respects you've taken us back to the 50's.
Look, instead of arguing a blind defense, why not just bite it and admit something fucked up has happened and begin turning things around? If you're 15 all you're probably going to care about is having fun; if you're 18 or over it's time to widen the scope a little, man: between your Ecstacy highs and your dumb-ass MTV get inquisitive about other things with an intellectually or scientifically competitive spirit. Screw reliance on the system, dismiss the corrosive heritage of the Yuppies and religion, and Educate YOURSELVES. START by asking questions instead of presuming y'already have the answers (the latter is how religion slices it).
Speaking of devolving, has anyone else noticed how the younger generation (especially today's young men) clings to cartoonish ideas about what is masculine and feminine? It's as if all the lessons of feminism have been washed out of the system. I have a feeling I'm not the only one who is tired of seeing young, steroid-abusing strutting punks.
Hey, Frank:
Since Alex Rodriguez came up I oughtta send him after you with his bat.
I'll make this short n'sweet (cause I ain't got the time now): WHY are we always reducing the criteria to trends in music? DID I mention bands past or present? Or are you demonstrating my point?
You're overshooting the obvious.
My biggest gripe with the education system is the dismissive way that education and educators are handled by society in favor of all modes of entertainment.
I don't care how well he plays baseball, that punk Alex Rodriguez isn't worth a quarter of a billion dollars over ninety years, much less nine. And frankly, I wouldn't pay AH-nold to bring the car around so I could drive to work, much less grease his wheels with a private jet so he'll star in my movie. What is laid out for entertainment is obscene in this country, especially given the corresponding struggle for funds school districts face nationwide.
Society's current mode comes down to this: Education is a place where money goes to be spent, not made. If it can't turn a profit, it falls off the radar. Schools don't make money. Thus, schools are not worth the time, effort or expense. (Never mind that they were never intended to be cash cows; in today's world, right or wrong, that's the measure of worth: what does giving you money get me in return?)
The result? New teachers are either very dedicated and quickly grow disillusioned, or they're what could be had on short notice from a sparse pool of candidates, a warm body to fill a state-dictated lesson plan. And the children hear in the media that this pro athelete got a ten million dollar signing bonus, or that rock star who beat up his girlfriend last year just made a $30 million dollar deal with a label; the only time they hear about the teacher who went the extra mile to raise students up is when the story gets optioned by Dreamworks and Stallone gets cast as the teacher for $12 mil.
The message is clear: money talks, bullshit walks. Where is the incentive to learn the parts of speech, to read Cervantes, to grasp a logic problem or learn enough math to balance a checkbook, when all those other people didn't need them to get by?
There is none. There's no 24 point headline or thirty-second sound-byte that connects knowledge with a future (and no, Sinbad's series of commercials about all the cool things one can do with Math don't really cut it), so instead the message kids are inundated with is that fame and money are where it's at.
We're living in the land of the big score, and things being what they are, nobody collecting a check with more than six zeros is going to do a thing to change that, the media (top-heavy with this reality programming crap and un-News) isn't going to cut its own throat, and in the final analysis it comes down to parents and teachers to get children turned down a good path early on - short on time, on cash, on equipment, on facilities, and - in overcrowded schools - short on the attention a young mind needs.
Granted, this is by no means the whole problem. A child has to want to learn, parents has to take a healthy interest, and a teacher has to be skilled enough and dedicated enough to get through to both, as the case warrants. But given the Sisyphian boulders that a lot of schools face that could easily be trucked up that mountainside if society's priorities were in a different order, is it any wonder the education system is breaking down?
My two ducats. I'm really off profit motive these days...
Rob: I bet a lot of people wish they never heard the name Ralph Nader. Smile.
Lets also be honest: how many people actually listen to jazz or classical in America on a regular basis? Most kids seem to have hipper taste in music than their parent's. While Baby Boomers will stunt their own cultural growth with the combined force of Kenny G and Yanni, Their kids listen to all forms of differing kinds of sounds. Remember, MTV even had a version of "Unplugged" with Tony Bennett??
Justin:
Outside of that exchange I talked about, when that teenager associated being black with rap in the most RIGID sense (and, in effect, was wrong in his judgement about me)
Outside of routine history questions Jay Leno throws at today’s young’ns, ultimately embarrassing them on tv
Outside of the experiences a friend related to me about HIS conversations with today’s young’ns (to quote his reaction: “They don’t know SHIT!”)
Here is a fragmentary handful of responses I got from people who were in their early 20’s or late teens:
WHO’s Ralph Nader?
WHO’s Jackson ‘PO-lack’?
What’s ‘Sound of Music’? (never having seen the film I can understand, but NEVER even HEARING of it...creepy).
Who’s Salvidore Dali?
What’s Catcher In the Rye?
What’s an imaginary number?
What’s the Twilight Zone?
Who’s Rudyard Kipling?
That’s just a couple of examples off the top of my head. When I run across fissures like these what am I SUPPOSED to think? You're knowledgeable and broader minded than these people I ran across, I leave it for YOU to judge.
Frank,
The education system may be a part of the problem, yet as far as I know, they have classes still requiring you to read and math classes requiring you to calculate; it may be that students just refuse to do the work, and that leaves some open questions about the parents. The reasons for the problem are myriad.
Frank,
I believe we had a *huge* debate on this board a ways back (definitely some time last year, if I recall) about the role of the education system and the parents in the product of our youth. A lot of salient points made on both sides of the fence, worth a brief search on the archives if you're interested.
Peg
In my post, should be Edward O. Wilson
Not Edwin, my mistake.
His theory is "Consilience"
I hate to be obvious, but doesn't the fault with youth start with the fucked up education system? This is a system that makes sure kids are as brain fucked as possible. The easily manageable always make the best shoppers, remember. But we must also remember that not all kids are brain drains, or cultural lower rung dwellers. There is an organization called, Students Against Sweatshops, that do a great job on College campuses, informing the public on abuses of corporate dogs like NIKE. So not all is lost. Also, the Seattle protest was largely young people, and I am not just talking about the Anarcho-window breakers. But it was found out later that a lot of the window breakers were homeless kids, who were lashing out. The kids may not always be allright, but they aren't all bad either.
The music debate is interesting, but I am a bit peeved at all the people who consistantly pick on Rap music, and other forms of popular music. Rap music is popular in the inner city because it speaks to what is happening in the streets in blood red terms, that seem to scare away tame ears. Chuck D., of Public Enemy, calls rap, "Black Americas CNN". Rap can be quite crass, and at times, highly offensive, and stupid, but, rap is the way many who have no hope use as a way out of the killing fields. Rapper Ice-T has the money to hire ex-gang members, who would be killing and robbing if Ice didn't have the way out monetarily. I am not insisting that rap is as important musically as Jazz, but I do know many esteemed jazz musicians have guested on rap albums, and Quincy Jones has endorsed popular music for years.
I say for the record once again: there is good music and bad music. Good Jazz, Bad Jazz. Good rock, bad rock, etc...
This battle between young and old is kind of silly. Generations have always argued about what is "pure" and what is "impure" culturally, especially when it comes to music taste. I am sure I could find classical music critics who literally hate jazz music. I know a woman who loves opera and Mozart, but thinks jazz is "noise". The beat of rap is meant to piss off White America, and I kind of enjoy seeing certain white bread conservative types squirm. Miles Davis was castigated by jazz critics when he wrote in his autobiography that rocker Prince was the Duke Ellington of this age. Maybe Miles is right, maybe he is wrong. Everyone has opinions. Everyone has tastes. Some like sweet, some like spicy. Music has a mysterious power that is strange to say the least. Beauty works in many diffrent ways. Music is the one art form where a consensus is impossible.
But, this discussion is great. Keep it up folks. Good rant Ellison!
Kids are only as stupid as their parents and other adults in their lives let them be.
Think about this: many highly educated people either choose not to have children or have fewer children when they are older. I wasn't so sure about having children myself (now I have 'em, for better or for worse), but somebody said to me (I don't recall why or in what context really) that it was a good thing for educated strivers like my husband and me to have kids.
I meet kids all the time in my line of work. True, some kids think they already know everything and don't wish to look beyond their own noses. Far more, though, are curious, bright and want to learn. When I confront kids who signify with attitude, I calmly tell them that I won't let them fulfill the "lazy, spoiled, brat" role much of society assumes they fill.
I was lucky because my parents valued education though they weren't particularly well-educated themselves. Also, they made me work around the house, and when I was older, out of the house. They taught me to respect my elders and put me in my place when I got too uppity to bear. They weren't perfect, but they weren't the worst either. I was also lucky to have interested and dedicated teachers.
Justin: Out of curiosity, and since you mentioned Dawkins, have you had the chance to read Tom Wolfe's "Hooking Up"? There's an essay that focuses on the 'new Darwinism', talks a bit about Dawkins, but mainly focuses on the work of Edwin O. Wilson. I'd never read him, though I had heard of him, and now I find myself itching to get a hold of his works, since I've always had an interest in genetics and biology. From what I gleaned from the essay and my own limited knowledge, Wilson postulates (based on his study of apes and especially ants---he won the Pulitzer for his myrmecological studies) that genetics defines not only one's physical and mental characteristics but one's role in society. Very interesting, and I intend to read more of him ASAP. Probably good ammo for anyone looking to shoot down the "nuture over nature" debate. (Nobody should believe that anyway….I think it was recently discussed here how the cream of humanity tends to rise to the top, no matter how many layers of scum it has to pass through…)
I am trying to think of some way to apply this genetic angle to the topic at hand (the 'dumbening' of youth). Not sure if I can quite do it…seems maddeningly close, though. Probably difficult because this might be one of those exceptional instances in which influences rather than innate qualities are the determining factor….or is that even right? Hell, I am one of those teens (not for much longer, though) and not to toot my own horn, but…well, okay, no tooting. You get the idea.
As sort of a larger scheme, though, what would really happen to society if everyone (or even 50% of people) were as intelligent, literate, (must resist urge to 'yadda') and…so on…as the folks in Webderland? I don't see it working, I really don't. I have held quite a few minimum-wage jobs in the past and quite honestly I think they just suck. After months of working 9-to-5 at a register, it's like your skin leaves greasy trails of stress wherever it touches (Or if you're working at a well-known fast food restaurant as I also was once, greasy trails of grease). Maybe I'm just a spoiled brat. Then again, this sort of thing has been brought into a court of law-there was an aspiring policeman (in upstate NY, IIRC) who was not offered a job by the local force because he had scored TOO HIGH on an intelligence test, the reasoning being that he would become restless on the job and lose focus walking the beat hour after hour. My immediate reaction was to dismiss this as ludicrous, but there is a slippery grain of truth in it, somewhere…maybe.
Again, not sure what that has to do with the idiot-kids argument. Guess I'm just saying that it's common to lament how stupid everyone else is, but the alternative Einstein society would be quite an upheaval from what we know now. Bringing back the genetics argument-it's not happening anytime soon. (Treading lightly here…) On average, the less-educated and poorer (again, not necessarily less intelligent or cultured, but--) have a birth rate significantly higher than the well-educated, possibly more wealthy segment of the population-the folks who favor a lot of the things discussed on this board. Are people just breeding themselves stupider? Someone before mentioned population control. It's a good solution. Hell of a lot better than any deservedly nasty idea like eugenics. If families across the spectrum had, say, 2 kids per, everything might balance out eventually. The new golden age?
I'm well aware that most of this is hypothesizing, extrapolating, and so on. Still, it's worth mulling over, no?
Back from a long weekend in Morro Bay, and ready to pipe up again.
Alex, thanks for defending me after I challenged your observations about the e-monkey. See, we're civilized here? Ain't it grand? I confess, in retrospect I think your comments hit close to home. But I've made more friends on the Web, and higher calibre friends than I would have ever been able to acquire in the wastelands of mediocrity. As in everything, balance is the key.
And no, you're not the only Danny Elfman junkie. I love his stuff. Hell, it's not a Tim Burton film if it hasn't got that certain sound to it. Edward Scissorhands and that haunting chorus, prime example.
Anyone else here seen Planet of the Apes?
Kevin, re: Blue Man Group and the CD "Audio". Listened to it all the way back down the coast yesterday. Great driving music. And if anyone's interested, I wrote a review of their show in Vegas on my website, http://www.digitalcarrion.com. If you ever have a chance to see them, don't pass it up.
Harlan~ Your comments on the average American consumption fiend were greatly appreciated. After having had my night at the movies ruined yesterday by a pair of "groundlings" (and I can think of no other word for this pair of animated afterbirth), your words hit home. Amazing that people are willing come to physical blows over something that most would consider to be common courtesy.
And Justin, I don't think that over-population has anything to do with it. Two examples, Japan and England. Two very crowded countries that have each evolved a culture that is painfully polite in some instances. I think your observations about instant gratification and an overblown sense of entitlement are much closer to the truth. There is no shame involved anymore, no fear of consequence, no regard for others. And I am increasingly at a loss as to how to function in this society, where nothing short of the threat of unrestrained violence will make people conform to a minimum standard of acceptable conduct.
L.
Justin - be careful what you wish, growing old always happens faster than you think (at least in hindsight)....
Interesting comments all around about the ignorance of modern youth. Harlan’s post instantly reminded me of a quote I first read in one of his books. I believe it was on the dust jacket of Edgeworks 3, in fact. I’d dig it out and reproduce it here, were it not for the unfortunate fact that I have already packed my books. Wah. The quote was from Yashinsky, I believe, and it was about how a person need fear neither his enemies nor his friends, but only those who have allowed themselves to become rotten with indifference.
Anyway, I have a few observations I’d like to make, as a young person, on the subject of our modern Ammurican youth. Let me preface these observations by saying that I haven’t been around long enough to be able to say with any degree of certainty how much better or worse things were before I got here. Furthermore, I was always hesitant to make the assumption that my generation was so much more bone stick stone stupid than previous generations. I didn’t want to allow myself to be victimized by the “grass is always greener” syndrome. I didn’t want to make the easy assumption that the world was a better, smarter place before I landed in it. I knew enough about human history to know that most of it had been about as pleasant as a napalm body wash, and I didn’t want to just assume that somehow my generation found itself in a particularly sorry state. It just seemed too easy for me to assume that I was growing up with the biggest lot of slavering morons this country has ever produced.
Last year I was sitting on the porch with my grandmother, and it suddenly occurred to me to pipe up and ask her a question, out of the blue. I asked her, “Gramma,” I says, “Was the world a better or worse place to live when you were a kid?”
She seemed a bit surprised by the question, and answered only after a long, thoughtful pause. “Oh…well honey, I think things are a lot better now. I suspect we had the same amount of crime back then, you just didn’t hear about it as much. And we have a lot of new medicines, and people generally live a higher quality of life.”
I asked a few other older people about this, and the answer I got was always very similar. But I soon came to suspect that these folks were thinking that things were better simply because of the new technological advances, relative peace, and economic prosperity that they were able to enjoy. They were insulated retired people, who had no personal experience with the problem currently plaguing us. The problem, of course, being the quality of the youth of this country- the ones about to take over the whole dadgum shootin’ match. I don’t think any of the older people I spoke to about this had much contact with the boneheaded, media-saturated, slavish dunderheadedness that I was forced to contend with on a daily basis. The same morally substandard, thoughtless, zit-faced hordes that caused me to ask the question in the first place, “Is the human race somehow devolving?”
At this point I’d have to agree that a lot of these kids today are some of the saddest sacks to ever walk the earth. Keep in mind- I don’t think I’m any better than anybody else. All I know is that I make an active effort to turn myself into a decent human being every day, and most of my peers don’t give enough of a damn to make any such attempt. So I do think I’ve earned the right to gripe, just a tad. Also keep in mind- I have lived in seven states in twenty years, and went to four different high schools in two wildly different parts of the country, so I have had a unique exposure to the generation that I’m standing here accusing of being a bunch of dolts.
I was reading a book recently called THE SELFISH GENE, by Richard Dawkins. The version of SELFISH GENE I read had last been revised back in ’89, and it said at one point that if population expansion continued at its present rate, then it wouldn’t take more than a few hundred years before we reach the point where people, packed in a standing position, could form a solid human carpet over the whole continent of Latin America. He went on to explain that in 2,000 years, the mountain of people, traveling outwards at the speed of light, would have reached the edge of the known universe.
Hokay…so here we have a human population that’s just exploding all over the goddamn place. Those are some pretty startling statistics, and I know that Latin America isn’t the only place where overpopulation is a major problem. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s a pretty damn big problem pretty much anywhere human beings have chosen to situate themselves, yes? Certainly my generation was the first in this country to face such overcrowding in our schools, and I think it is natural for a person in an overpopulated environment to become very self-important and self-centered, almost as a survival mechanism. I think that’s happened to a lot of people my age. Concurrently, we grew up in a world that’s seemingly getting smaller and smaller, thanks to communication and transportation systems that are linking every corner of the world to every other corner in ways that few people would seriously have thought possible twenty years ago.
I think it is entirely possible that what we may have right now in this country is a “cesspool of imbeciles,” heaps more than there have ever been before thanks to this population explosion business, and they’re all connected to one another in a society in which many individuals are paradoxically disconnecting. Disconnecting from reality more completely than humans have ever been able to before. Think about it- how many people are hiding away in this country, in complete physical comfort, racking up credit card debts as they frantically spend and spend and spend until they are sure that they are in no danger of spending another millisecond of their lives un-fufilled and un-entertained? Lots, right? I think so.
I think I am a member of a generation that has been raised by parents that were able to indulge themselves way too much. I think this attitude of self-fulfillment at all costs has been passed down to us by our parents, but also by the media, if for no other reason than it makes the dissemination of bad ideas to idiots a helluva lot easier. And it gets easier and easier with each passing day. With each passing wireless cellular phone internet billboard television newsmagazine talk show day. I mean, you can’t take a crap anymore without someone wanting to advertise something to you while you’re on the damn pot. And what is advertising if not a blatant effort to get people to indulge their whims?
I’d like to make one thing clear, though- I’m not saying that I, and all other members of my generation, aren’t responsible for our own stupidity. I mean, we *could* be using all this technology and all the resources at our disposal to better ourselves, but we aren’t. Not usually, and that’s a personal choice if I ever saw one.
Anyway, it is late and I will be forced to leave it at that. I may be way off base, and if I am, I hope someone will put me straight, or offer up even better ideas. But I think this is a good discussion and I wanted to add my two cents (though it turned out to be more like a buck seventy five, sorry about the length of this screed).
And to all a g’night.
Justin Sluyter
p.s. I can’t wait to be an old man, so I can sit out on the porch in my rocking chair yelling at the neighborhood children, and griping like this, all day long.
Alex J and Cookie - Additional listings of "Stringsville" for sale: a stereo copy at http://www.the-record-collector.com/Jazz_K_and_L.htm for $35 in M-; a mono copy at http://www.musicbaron.com/jazznblues.htm for $75; no authorized CD release as yet; and yes, Virginia, there is one currently listed on E-bay by Atomic Records in Burbank, no bidders, six days to go, opens at $5.00, there is a reserve, and if I hadn't just picked up a pair of tickets to Diana Krall's show in Harrisburg on the 17th, I'd probably be bidding on it myself. This is the best I can do with all of my tendrils currently tucked in their beds, but should anything else turn up on my screens, I'll send up a flare if interested.
Re: Mr. Ellison's and Mr. Van Gessel's comments - What's interesting is that, as folks like Paul T. Riddell have pointed out, everybody thinks you're talking about somebody else (he says as he tries to pry the word "hypocrite" from his forehead). Punks blast one band while talking about how much, like, that other band just sucks, y'know? even though the two are all but indistinguishable; skiffy fanboys treat Star Wars like a holy tome committed to film while logging on and anonymously flooding Star Trek message boards with "StAr TrEk SuX!!!!11"; allegedly literate people poo-poo Danielle Steele while devouring the latest from Steele's male counterparts, Crichton and Clancy; it goes on and on and on, the one thing connecting all of them being the assumption that _they're_ reading or watching or listening to the Good Stuff, and everybody else is just wasting their time.
I'm not guilt-free, either, as I just implied. I hope there's no permanent damage from all that 80s guitar rock I listened to until a while ago, but I'm not sure. (And, speaking of which, I need to go CD shopping. I'd like some strings pieces, violin solos, that sort of thing. I'm up to my armpits in upbeat, up-tempo--acoustic guitars and bodhrans and pennywhistles and suchlike--so something melancholy would be nice. Any suggestions?)
~Jeff
Hi I liked that post about youth jerkos.
I was watching the Weakest link and it was just the opposite of its title. They would always vote off the strongest smartest person who answered all the questions so they wouldn't lose later when they had to compete with em. Its pretty much a microcosm of general human nature /insidious pavement pouring corps if you ask me. You'd think it wouldn't be like that with intelligent peeps/ scientists progressing the culture with all those inventive innovations but the problem is that curiosity gets noses so far into the books and projects that it is easy for survivalist money maker devilchilds to take advantage and use invention for creeper purposes like milking the depressed public, desperate for soothing and satisfaction. Press the button for a quick fix, these are Americans, a people who always and easily get what they want. These empty pampered people want to be filled with a sweet candy. Life is too easy. Too bad there is not a circle of hand holding moral lawlayers always with the right judgement and in endless ultimate power and also maracas duct taped to sticks dishing out tough love to the spoiled. There is just too many people now though, not everyone gets the attention they need - considerably less than a tv star who is the alter ego/roll model for the masses. If as a people we are used to getting lots of attention, lots of cars, lots of mileage, lots of food at hand, then anything less is unacceptable. Welcome to the world of gluttony and deprivation panic.
-the fat round blubbed out cortort
ps I am still reading Again Dangerous Visions --read the time travel psychiadelic masterbater story this morning. I don't have the book on me and could not find a list of titles and authors anywhere online, not even on this harlanellison.com website, so... anyways, it was a good story reminded me of Sprague L. DeCamp's Lest Darkness fall if written by Stephen Gaskin & Basketball Diaries' Jim Carrolls.
Doh! I feel foolish. I check the main page every single day to see what's been updated, and if nothing has been updated I go on my merry way (since I've spent hrs at the site and devoured all the articles and interviews and stories and archive). So today I say to myself, "Self? Why don't you check out that message board?" And so I did.
What an ass I am. Not only is this a great board, but I see HE himself is now a frequent visitor. I'll be a regular visitor now too...
Jeez, why didn't I check out the board sooner? As Q would say to Bond..."Pay ATTENTION 007..."
Bob Sassone
http://www.bobsassone.com
God, what a gift this message board is. I really enjoyed Harlan's Monk recommendation--I'm a fan, too--as well as his comments re: "Life is not a comparison of Chamber of Horrors." Those few paragraphs were packed with more wisdom than a cart full of books.
COOKIE: There's a copy of the re-release of STRINGSVILLE for sale at http://www.jazzmanrecords.com/jazzman4133/harlook.html for twenty-four bucks, and another copy somewhere on a Japanese website for either 7800 yen or 7,800,000 yen, or seventy-eight dollars; I can't tell.
Maybe we should set the Finder a task?
The closing sentiments in my last post were, frankly, my mimicry of a hopeful soul, that Alex and the two friends of mine (at 20 and 21, respectively, who can ACTUALLY talk about artists, like Matisse and Dali, authors like Joyce and Salinger, and political issues abroad, as WELL as Grung; they may be exceptions but a few years ago I just never met anyone in those relative age ranges capable of uttering much beyond grunts) don’t feel that I dismissed them as part of the prevailing cultural erosion. I am NOT being simplistic. The majority across the country could still be just as lame and I've had a ruthless attitude about it for a long time. Being an asshole has always been part of being a teenager; BUT when I was competing with MY adolescent peers we were aggressive about knowing things besides the hottest party trends. Whether black, white, Asian, or Klingon, we read, we debated, we were curious, we put more stock in science than in the fancies of religion...and THEN we partied. I WILL add we had to fight the brain-numbing presence of TV, which I believe, among numerous factors, contributed to the steady erosion we see today (miracles of the eighties, like the Yuppie trends - this Republican-driven "all out for yourself" shit - didn't help either).
My key argument is we need to constantly hammer this problem into everyone's awareness circuits to gradually replant the inquisitiveness it takes for growth of broader, learned minds.
As Homer Simpson gloated with a smile of victory when they wanted the kids to learn about and see Michaelangelo's David: "They're FORCIN' em!"
Cool! Thanks for the rec. I'll try a couple of my audiophile friends.
Did Tal Farlow play the violin? I didn't know that. Tal is one of my very, very favorite guitarists!
Cookie and Alex K.:
I am about to turn you on to a thing that you will never forget, that will roll your socks up and down . . . if you can locate a copy.
Monk is one of my passions. Heard him play live at the Five Spot, the Showplace, the Village Vanguard, and other venues, in the '50s and early '60s. My favorite Monk composition is, predictably, "'Round Midnight."
And the best version of it---after Monk's original, of course---appears on an Atlantic album (circa late '50s) by violinist Harry Lookofsky titled STRINGSVILLE. The number of memorable jazz violinists beyond Grappelli and Joe Venuti and Stuff Smith and the occasional piece by Tal Farlow (and one other famous one, whose name has fallen out of my head just when I need it) can be counted on the fingers of one hand with enough digits left over to pick your nose.
This, as far as I know, was Lookofsky's only pressing as a leader, though he was a much-valued, much-hired, much-respected studio musician and first violin in several world class symphonic aggregations. How and why this offbeat album was cut, I have no idea. But when Atlantic released it, I gave it a "highest recommendation" in my jazz columns and in reviews for METRONOME. It is, simply, breathtaking. Haunting. Imperial.
If you two enjoy Monk, then take it as your life's work to locate a copy of STRINGSVILLE. You will honor me for the advisement.
(And to all those of you with an unquenchable egalitarian mien--much like the one I sported for fifty-plus years--who think that "babyboomers" shouldn't be dissing today's dunderheaded tots because YOU were vapid in YOUR teens, well, as I've said repeatedly, LIFE IS NOT A COMPARISON OF CHAMBERS OF HORROR!!!
(Just because YOU were shallow, does not make the emptiness, surliness, arrogance, cultural illiteracy, violence, fatheaded antics, outright ignorance, blatant stupidity, and random disrespectful belligerance of today's punks any less objectionable, any more pardonable, any nobler or permissable.
There is a qualitative difference, as well as a quantitative one. Things ARE worse. More jerkazoids, and the level of jerknicity asymptotically higher than a cat stranded in a belfry. Even in the '60s and '70s, when addressing a high school or college crowd, I could expect a level of understanding and curiosity and cultural ethic that today would get such kids a place on The Weakest Link or Who Wants to be a Badly-Informed Millionaire. Today, the plague sowed by rock'n'roll as religion has taken its toll. Kids are, in fact, dumber, less informed, less literate, and snottier about it than they were in times before The Gap and MTV and the dynamite pr of this week's shitty movie blockbuster. They are a corrupted constituency mesmerized and potty-trained to be nothing more glorious than conspicuous consumers of seasonal faddish food and tune and clothing, to want nothing more than a Lexus and partypartyparty; and it is only the anecdotal exception--such as Justin, who is ANYTHING but a punk--that keeps me from pressing the red button to blow every one of the orally-challenged little pismires to Kingdom Come.
(Stop excusing the rampant cultural moronicity just because there were shitheads and dumbkopfs and assholes when YOU were in high school. Remember what it felt like to NOT be one of their ravenous clique? Pre-Columbine horror situations. Remember?)
These are the soulless doofuses who go to work for rapacious law firms like Latham & Watkins. Who buy acromegalic SUVs to show how big their dicks are. Who litter without a thought. Who see no Big Picture, see no Little Picture, see only their own avarice as worthwhile. Who have everything, but are still riddled with umbrage. Who cannot accept responsibility for their actions, much less their lives. Who know nothing, but have never had a star shine in their eyes, or a dream illuminate the arid wasteland of their inner moral desert. They were ignorant and amoral as an asp when they were kids, and as adults they are as free of ethical imperative as aluminum siding.
You excuse them, you let them off the hook, at your peril. Nathaniel Brazill was not unique.
Yr. pal, Harlan, who daily grows more pragmatic as the darkness creeps toward him.
Rob: I'd like to assure you that your optimism in the last paragraph of your post, when you said you hope today's teenagers possess more maturity and a greater sense of culture than those in the Eighties and Nineties, is not ill-founded. It's just, well, I was a kid in through the latter half of the Eighties and most of the Nineties, and I don't know what teens were like back then.
Just one question: where they really so bad as to make the people with whom I've had the misfortune to attend high school for an eternity or two are considered an improvement? In anything?
~Jeff
Alex, did you mean "Brilliant Corners" by Monk? Great tune. I researched, transcribed and arranged it. It's an interesting piece.
Alex,
It has ALWAYS been a problem, each generation getting its head caught in its own cultural vacuum; it's even more disgruntling when racial or ethnic stereotyping rears its head in that vacuum. It's one thing to lack information. It's another when you presume you're in touch with your cultural base, your roots, and judge someone of another ethnic group on the basis of that presumption - but proving that, in fact, you don't know shit.
Listen, man, that guy was being cocky, there in downtown LA - that I was totally into "white", that I wasn't into black music and therefore knew nothing about being black (which is TRUE, I don't know what it is to be black anymore than I know what it is to be Asian or Dutch) but, in fact, there are masses of black artists, musicians, writers, and thinkers who had given me a lot of inspiration when I was a kid and still do. That's because I was subjected to some of our past while I was growing up; I wasn't around when most of those guys lived.
But I don't think your assessment of the situation is entirely on the mark. One, though EVERY generation is marked by the same problem (and I come in JUST after the baby boomers, myself) I CAN say that a larger number of more recent generations seem to know far less about prior history than older ones; when I was a kid, my peers, even in ELEMENTARY school (that was in the mid-seventies), were talking about issues and the stark realities of history - including matters of what was "heritage" and what was theft; who was being deprived and who was hogging the benefits. "What is past is prologue", as it goes. How many among the present generation know that prologue? I've talked with quite a few and they couldn't seem to get passed anything that didn't have to do with MTV, raves and rap (to be fair, I DO have two friends who are in their very early 20's and are much more informed and open-minded than that). It's a damn implosion. I think you oughtta be more pissed about that than the generation gap being criticized.
Secondly, the point I was making in my earlier post is that we need to become more aware of how culturally insular we get so easily. (Listen, teenagers of EVERY generation, as you'll eventuallly understand, are butt holes. MINE was no exception; I was an asshole too. This is not a situation about the older guy hooting, "ya young, fucked-up whipper snappers; when I was yer age I never done talked back to m'elders"; presumption is a strong characteristic of being a teenager). But there's a world outside our own. We're also easy cattle for the advertisers and markets and lawmakers when we know less. IF each generation is going to be into its own thing it should at least have the adjunct of knowledge to avoid naiveté. That's a bridge usually up to the parents to provide, a fact that gives credence to the detachment and ineptitude of the slightly older generation too (as you were inferring; on that score you're TOTALLY right). The more insular one generation is, logically, the more fucked up those people will be in their later years; naturally, they hand the voids down to their offspring - the next generation.
In the final analysis, I'm saying that you're right about older generations too. But the summation is that people, younger and older, need to become more aware of the problem. However, to underscore ONE more point, that would-be rapster guy I talked to was several years ago; he's older than these two friends I mentioned. It's possible that the most recent generation - say, high school kids - are emerging with slightly more mature attitudes than, say, the high school kids of the eighties and early nineties. You see, I have to make sure that MY attitudes don't become too insular as well.
Check out today's NY Times for far better writing about multiculturalism in American art than my scrawl of last evening. I find this to be a thought-provoking article.
Freedom! Break free; be free!
I think Art of all kinds brings freedom with it.
Okay, okay, so the kids today ain't got no culture. It's true, I don't deny it. What bothers me a bit about these comments is that I always hear my generation muttering along these lines, and, damnit, neither did we. I squeak, of course, of the Baby Boomers.
Harlan wrote, in THE GLASS TEAT, of finding reason to bless television when a waiter in a restaurant sported a t-shirt with the words "Rick's Cafe American." For all the boob tube's manifold flaws, it did help maintain the past. Where else, in those pre-cable, pre-VCR days, would this youngster have seen "Casablanca?" Bubelahs, Balbatim, that's not kids, that's _us._ That's the boomerbaby generation, the self-absorbed coterie that invented sex, proclaimed the church of pot-smoking, and outlawed tobacco. Think our generation has cultural depth? Hah!
Whenever someone challenges me on my skepticism regarding astrology, I point out that I'm a twin. My sister, born five minutes ahead of me (pushy, even then), raised with the same enormous family library, educated at the same schools, holder of two degrees, reads a book as often as twice a year. During the OJ trial, she stretched out and read _three!_ We've got the same sign? Hah!
I know boomers who talk about today's damn kids, but who wouldn't know Also Sprach Zarathustra (except for the main theme, for obvious reasons) from the Moonlight Sonata. This year, they know Dizzy from Satchmo because they've heard the gospel of Ken Burns. But it won't last.
In 1995 or 6, Harlan told me his great "Lost Horizon" story--and how it was totally lost on the staff of White Wolf publishing, where the oldest member of the staff, publicist Kim Shropshire, was several years shy of thirty. Delighted, I repeated the yarn to my wife....who said, "What's 'Lost Horizon?'"
Yeah, the damn kids don't know nothin' today....but are the boomers in a position to talk?
Okay, I'm feeling cynical today. My older daughter asked what I had playing in my office this morning, and my wife said, "More of daddy's weird music." It was "Bright Corners" by Monk. Faz baz.
--Just ranting, Alex
One of my favorite singers is the idiosyncratic Kate Bush. Not only does she have a four-octave range, she writes literate, imaginative lyrics. Who else would base an entire song around James Joyce's Ulysses? Her voice is an acquired taste for some but even her occasional failed musical experiments are at the very least, interesting.
Oh, I don't know, Harlan. You've been awfully chairitable toward this punk.
On the subject of film scores- perhaps I'm guilty of poor taste, but I think the BLADE RUNNER soundtrack is the bee's knees. Also, is it just me, or does Michael Mann in particular do a really good job of making certain his movies have really appropriate, interesting soundtracks (I'm thinking primarily of his last three films, THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS, HEAT, and THE INSIDER)?
J
Harlan,
Fuque'em: yes, the universal language in absolutes, even in ancient Athens.
I deserved that fudge in my face for I sensed beneath't allll that "Marie" wasn't IT: MARIAN, I'll never get it wrong again, honey, I know I done it to ya b'fo'.
YYYep: add that to my correction tape. My mother had corrected me on the name twice in the past; there's a glitch in that circuit somewhere. The lady deserves better. For some time I've wanted to get a CD with her work to cope with days that get steeped in stress.
Cookie,
Don't know how I managed to leave out Mancini; Pink Panther, and a mass of other scores, they ALL sizzle.
oops! My bad. I see it was not Robison, but Still who was copped by WB. That actually makes more sense to me.
William Grant Still is a very underrated and underknown composer. I hate it that some folks still persist in the myth that We Americans have no culture. We have great culture borne of a multiculture. We're just as screwy, or moreso, than any other "empire" in history, but I cannot buy that we don't have a culture. I believe that "modern" American culture (as opposed to ancient and indiginous American Indian cultures) are notable precisely for the borrowing and sharing of musical ideas among cultures.
I believe that Jazz music itself is the classic example of this: in jazz you find harmonic and formal aspects of Western European music (functional harmony, song form, march form, etc) coupled with African approaches to melody, harmony, form, and most notably, rhythm (bending pitches, expressive growls, shouts, declamations, "blue" tones, micro-tones, call-and-response, syncopation, and poly-rhythms, etc.). We see it today in the mainstreaming of Latin musics and Asian influences.
Being a musician, I by necessity relate to culture musically, but I see it in other American arts as well. The artist in the Americas tends to signify with art, IMO and since American stories and life histories tend to include influences of other cultures, American culture is strong BECAUSE of its multicultural, impure, improvisatory nature.
Don't know why I went there, but heck, let's flow with it.
What is the name of that GREAT William Grant Still piece?? All I can think of is Street Scene, but I could swear the piece had the words 125th and Lennox in it.
Mind like a steel sieve.....
I was not aware of Robison's association with WB cartoons and Stalling! Wow!
"Old Folks" is a gorgeous song. I haven't come across T's recording of it, but now I'll have to hunt it down. Teagarden is one of my very favorite singers. I love that version of "Rockin' Chair" he does with Louis Armstrong on ---what?--- a Jazz at the Philharmonic thing, I think. That stuff is such great music. I'd be in heaven if I got to work in a GOOD trad band three or four nights a week (leaving the other nights free for hard bop and other sundry and diverse wonderful musics!)
I've been working on "Old Folks" because my piano player likes the tune (keep the musicians happy and they'll keep you on the bandstand).
I like Elfman because he writes quirky.
When I think of Williams, I think of stuff by Elgar and Holst. Don't know why but I do.
Elmer Bernstein is a fun soundtrack guy. Didn't he do the music for "Animal House"? I love the music in that.
And DON'T forget Hank Mancini. That man has written SOOOO much beautiful music.
Jazz CD collection tip: speaking of Oliver Nelson, his recording "Blues and the Abstract Truth" is a must-have.
PS: Alejandro: Man! I need to go back and get a day-job just so I can put my ears on all the stuff you're recommending. Instead, I think I'll compile a list, take it to the local library, and suggest that they consider purchasing some. That way, the whole community can share.
I *LOVE* the library and am fortunate to live where there are good ones!
Right now, I'm listening to the music from the bell tower at Cornell while my love watches Fawlty Towers in the next room.
Cacaphonous bliss!
Rob: Amid all your posting-corrections, you omitted the one you
needed most: her name was MARIAN Anderson, not "Marie."
As for teenagers of ANY color who judge their betters and their elders (not always the same) by the amount of contemporary crap on which THEY are gulled into spending their money . . . yet know absobloodylutely NOTHING about anything cultural, trivial, historical or philosophical that happened before they lit the horizon with the effulgent arrogance of their inconsequential and transient existences, well, in the words of Demosthenes:
Fuque'em.
Not feeling very charitable toward punks and assholes, I remain, MOST respectfully, yr. pal, Harlan
Ah, fer chrissake!
My personal correction tape for my last post:
1) "...this black teenager several years ago..."
2) "...earlier generations wouldn't know shit..."
There, dammit!
Thank y'much, Boz Harlan:
Robison was precisely the man; I'm certain of it. I WILL be scouting him out. Gradually, I have plans to build a jazz collection - most of the emphasis being on R&B. (Blues, in particular, absolutely grips me - I'm helpless when I hear it).
Since we're on the subject of black artists, Marie Anderson's voice - particularly when she sang that piece (hint for "please help me with the name of that piece") for FDR - is unmatched by ANYONE'S. My mother (who I lossed last year when I didn't think it was possible), who didn't know a damn thing outside of classical music but knew it very well because it was once her profession, admired her highly.
Here's a quick interesting tangential story: I locked cultural boxing gloves with this black teenager a several years ago who prodded me with, "you're not into black music, ARE you?" Because I'd rattled off names like John Lennon, the Stones, Pink Floyd, and so on, he was certain my head was wedged in the vacuum of Whitey World...and I'd be foolish to deny that, to a degree I couldn't estimate, it was probably true; you stay in one kind of environment and the result is inevitable (being AWARE of that is the trick). Anyway, when I replied, "Sure I am: Lester Bowie, Dizzy Gillespie, Muddy Waters, Otis Redding - those are people I've liked a LOT", he responded with, "who are THEY?" He'd never even HEARD of these guys! Well, at least he was being honest, but it annoyed me because what he MEANT by "black music" was RAP. He didn't seem to know anything else, and through that tunnel vision - though TRUE, I don't like rap, it's not a form that talks to me like Blues does - he was trying to judge ME and what I was all about. Further, when someone labels something as "black", they do seem to leave out black WHERE? Black in Britain is different, as it is in France, as it is in Japan, as it is in Africa. Man, when we get disconnected from our roots we DO get disconnected; it reminds me of the scenes in Lorraine Hansberry's great play 'Raisin in the Sun', when the daughter thought she was connecting with her African roots only to find out that she didn't know shit culturally. Once we deprive ourselves of the education - not necessarily a FORMAL one - we identify ourselves by our own cultures WAY too much. We become insular.
Blues and Jazz mean a lot to me, and I myself have much to learn in both - MANY artists I've to learn and explore - and I WILL. They ARE on my agenda.
You see how much those old Warners cartoons serve us? We of earlier generations wouldn't no shit about our black cultural heritage if it weren't for them!
Rob: I believe you're refering to the legendary Willard Robison, who wrote, among others, "Old Folks." The best recording of which was a trombone/vocal version by Jack Teagarden on the second of two Verve pressings where T did
great interpretations of a number of Robison hits.
Now if you wanted the contemporary CLASSICAL black composer WB swiped from, his name was William Grant Still. His music is available.
Harlan
P.S.
An error in spelling.
His name is Alessandroni. Not as I misspelled it.
Alessandro Alessandroni.
Try TRINITY GOES EAST on Hexacord. That would be CD. Hexacord HCO-03. Websites at www.hillside.kirion.net and at www.hexacord.com. Original motion picture soundtrack album TRINITY GOES EAST. Copyright 2000.
Quote from the liner booklet: "Mr. 'Whistle & Guitar' (as he's affectionately called by some of his close friends) is one of the most versatile and gifted composers and performers . . ."
and ". . . listen again to those magic and terrific sounds he created in the sixties for Italian Cinema."
Let your ears do the detective work.
Not at all happily, yr. pal, Harlan.
Hey, Mr. Church:
You may have screwed up a tad about Morricone having won the Oscar but I think ALL of us were seduced by the complex Carl Stalling music in those old Warners cartoons; it was SO integral to their insolent personality. A lot of it was jazz from a black composer who'd written great stuff around the late 20's, early 30's - which I didn't know until a couple of years ago when they were talking about it on National Public Radio. I do NOT remember the man's name. Some of you Jazz aficionados here may know who that was.
Mr. Church: Morricone has never won an Oscar, though nominated multiple times.
You probably all know that I am a frequently outspoken admirer of Morricone's work; that, in fact, I've written liner notes for one of his albums, and that I own more than 400 Morricone vinyls, tapes and CDs, ranging back over more than thirty-five years,including many unreleased scores, such as the lovely music for WHAT DREAMS MAY COME that was rejected by the snotnosed arriviste director, a young punk shithead from Australia.
Thus, it is with some concern that I impart the purposely, intentionally obscure intimation of exceedingly disturbing, previously confidential information as to the actual authorship of much of the vast oeuevre bearing Morricone's name. The confidential information comes from a highly knowledgeable and trustworthy source close to the matter, and I am being VERY VERY and purposely enigmatic in suggesting only this: if you are a fan of Morricone's work, as am I, you would be rewarded if you purchased recent releases by two men who worked with Morricone in his "golden period": their names are Alessondrini and Bruno Nicolai.
Ask me no more about this. But if you're curious, let your ears do the detective work.
Yr. pal, Harlan.
Actually I was introduced to classical music through Warner Bros. Bugs Bunny cartoons. Now that is some stuff that sinks into my collective childhood memory. Too bad Bugs and Tweety have to be tainted by the corporate ink of it's parent company, or should I say companies!?
But for my money Ennio Morricone is the man when it comes to movie music. John Williams is fine but tends to ape other composers instead of having a certain voice. Morricone really adds drama to any moving image, be it a shoot out or a slow pan to a sensual female shoulder. It was good to see Morricone win the Oscar.
Whoops, guess I tipped everyone off to my ultra-conservatism. I am fifty-seven years old and I only saw "Beetlejuice" (with its naughty, naughty words) because I thought it was about astronomy.
Heh.
Ah, gimme a break, the movie came out in 1988. I was seven!
Susan/Harlan,
The SLEEPLESS NIGHTS arrived safe & sound.
Thank you very much.
John Q.
Just popping in to defend John Williams. In my opinion, he is a great composer and still continues to create wonderful music (even after the eighties).
Compositions from Jurassic Park, Schindler's List, Amistad, Sleepers, Seven Years In Tibet, and The Patriot enhance those movies for their presence. They stand on their own as concert pieces, as well.
Musicians such as Yo-Yo Ma and Itzhak Perlman have said they are honored to play for him. The man is certainly one of the premier composers of our time.
Someone also mentioned Shirley Walker. Excellent composer for Batman: The Animated Series. It's too bad they chose to go "techno" with Batman: Beyond, as her orchestral music was truly a work of art. Check out her score for Batman: Mask of the Phantasm if you can.
Howdy, all. Some of you might remember my name from the Ellison newsgroup, where I didn't post very often. Just pokin' my nose in to see what's up, that's all. (Looks like I missed a decent discussion about A.I. Oh, well.)
To my unspeakable embarrassment, it occurred to me, forgetting to read my last entry before posting it, that the word "appellative", I THINK, only applies to a proper noun - like, say, Rousin' Robbie!
I don't think it's a qualifier that applies to objects or aesthetic descriptions. That occurred to me a few seconds after hitting 'Send Message'. Feelin' humbled and stupid, I just didn't wanna get me ass bit.
David,
As you know, I’m not one to get hung up on a trifling subject. But since we discussed scores on two films by Ralph Nelson I feel I should reword my take on one of ‘em; the appellative "rousing," which kind of stirs images of happy cowboys leapin’ about, may have given the wrong impression about the jazz in ‘Duel at Diablo’. Hefti, who was an outstanding composer, did use an exhilarating electric guitar but underlying it was sheaths of sad melody, eliciting a sense of tragedy. Indeed, the characters in the film are bonded by loss, emptiness and the destruction they bring on themselves. That’s why the score works so well as a foreground component. It WAS kewl, but it was also, to apply YOUR word for the Shankar score, lovely; I'm tranfixed by its complexity, and its FEELING, whenever it's on. Try and locate the movie and put it on sometime.
Just felt a little clarification was in order. Whatever the case, it is the only western in history to have a jazz score.
Scott: I highly recommend Bill Hicks ARIZONA BAY, available from Ryko. Also available is RELENTLESS, RANT IN E-MINOR, and DANGEROUS. He was a highly respected member of the Stand-up community, and has been called brilliant by such people as Dennis Miller, Brett Butler, and David Letterman.
Amy: I'm curious as to how you define 'Edgy'. The reason I ask is because nowadays, with so much edgy comedy, its a term that really gets thrown about quite a bit.
Tammy
Thrown out of the very group you started, eh, Amy? A prophet without honor, and all that.
On the subject of soundtracks, Rob mentioned Carmine Coppola, Francis's Dad. I know he played a role in the scores of Godfather II and III, but the piece of trivia that really sticks in my memory is that Carmine scored "Tucker," and Francis played tuba on the soundtrack!
As for Shankar's soundtrack for "Charly," it doesn't stick with me either, even though I have the album. It's not tenaciously jingle-style music, or rousing stuff. I't just refreshingly lovely, like the film.
Michael's first encounter with the F-word was "Beetlejuice." Hmm. Maybe it was "Woodstock" for me. Although "Alice's Restaurant" was my first R-rate movie (I didn't have to sneak into anything; my folks TOOK me to those); did the F-word turn up there?
Kevin McElroy said, "Thanks for the heads up on "SHTOONK", but now I have another question; does "THWAP" end with one or two P's?"
Well, now, you're getting into some of the finer points of furshlugginer communication. The number of p's depends on the context, Kev. If a fresh fish is hitting the kitchen floor, it's a one-p THWAP! But if it's a rotten fish ... or a 2x6 board striking a spy(black or white)'s kisser ... then it's more likely to be a two-p THWAPP!
When Don Martin died a year and a half ago, there were some heartfelt regrets voiced (someone said "we shall spliff no more") in a discussion list I belong to, devoted to the extremely esoteric 1970s British progressive rock band Gentle Giant, after which we had a spirited debate over what sound he made when he departed....
Alex, yes, your concerns are wise. Internet addiction is turning many children into a nation of goggle heads. I notice, at the public library, that kids sit online for hours in those mind numbing chat rooms. Many of these chat rooms are nothing but brain dead kids talking to brain kids about nothing of note.
But this room does at least have a intelligent slant. I don't see posting in here as any more harmful than writing an email or a regular letter. Ellison's contact with fans is served by this room but I do think it is best that all of us keep our postings to a minimum of one a day or less.
The internet does serve a wonderful purpose: Informing us on the news that is censored from the mainstream press, and connecting people around the world with needed informantion about current events and ideas. Also note, that people in small towns need the internet to help them research-when librarys are regularly small in those burgs. But corporate America is trying to keep the web all to themselves, to try to make us into a world of "shoppers", instead of a "community".
Activist and spoken word performer, Jello Biafra has a good quip about the net. Jello thinks the net is becoming like the CB craze in the 70's. Let's hope it doesn't go that far!
Linguist and amazing social critic, Noam Chomsky has a forum, where he responds to an amazing amount of questions from posters. I would say Chomsky has no problem answering all these questions plus writing the amazing boatload of books that seem to appear all the time. But if Harlan needs to chill, I say do what thou wilt Sarge. But don't leave us alone in the cold. This damn thing can become addicting, but it is good to see thinking people on the web for a change. Viva Tha Revolution!!
The discussion of movie music and Tykwer/Potenta movies leads to an interesting bit of convergence. The score for "Run Lola Run" is about the only electronica that I can listen to. That, and i think it is one of the best film scores of the '90s. Fits the movie perfectly, especially since a lot of it is like a silent movie - basically footage of Lola running or contemplating.
Holy gadzoley Betty Spaghetti, David! Talk about synchronicity 2. You mention Tykwer's second film with Franke Potenta... I just saw it tonight! (The Princess and the Warrior is the translated title). Really enjoyed it and agree with your description, especially the cinematography (which had some similarities to "Run Lola Run"). Personally I found the pace a bit slow at times - the film is long at 2:15 - but that was my only niggly complaint. Potente was brilliant in both films.
To paraphrase Michael Corleone, just when I'm about to get out, this board pulls me back in.
Kevin: Good to know I'm not the only one who grooves on Albert Elms. Love his jazzy irony in "The Prisoner" and have even tried to track down some out-of-print films he's scored.
Film composers in general: The two greatest living film score composers are Ennio Morricone and Jerry Goldsmith. Both are amazing workaholics who still continue to enhance dramatic environs to this very day. John Williams I could do without. The last appropriate score he created was for "JFK." Even so, the score in question was essentially base jingoism.
Joseph,
Oliver Nelson. THAT was it. Yeah, he did the arranging on Last Tango. Didn't know about his passing. Too bad, he was very good.
Kevin,
Though you're absolutely right about Elms on The Prisoner (a great soundrack overall; a LOT of jazz), there were occasional contributions from Grainer too. Once you hear Omega Man you can tell what was his. But, sure, it was mainly the theme he was known for.
I'm a fan of the first 5 episodes of LIS. The series was the first of its kind and was exceptional in theme because outside of Robinson Crusoe on Mars it was the only dramatic take in film on survival against the natural elements of an alien environment. It was a plight. (Three early episodes shortly thereafter have exceptional quality; the rest of the series is awful: My Friend, Mr. Nobody,' written by Jackson Gillis, who later worked on Columbo; 'The Sky Is Falling', an essay about cultural miscommunication and mutual survival; and 'Invaders From the Fifth Dimension'; I should add that a couple of writers who later worked on Star Trek wrote some of these. Result: aliens didn't speak English like everywhere else, you don't locate planets with a breathable atmosphere by accident, the ecosystem of the alien planet has a mutational relationship between plant and animal life, as they discover in lab tests. A shame: the series had vast potential). AND I do have a close love relationship with Smith ("That is PRESICELY what is wrong with our civilization...EVERYONE is a specialist. Whatever happened to the Renaissance Man?") and the Robot (best design in film anywhere). Anyway, I think the score Williams did on that show is among the finest anywhere in ANY form. It was multi-layered.
I like the Blue Man Group too.
Joseph,
I'm totally PC oriented, even in graphics. But I may yet have to adapt to the Mac. Used one intermittently about 5 years ago.
Rob,
According to the IMDB, the theme music for "The Six-Million Dollar Man" was composed by one Oliver Nelson, who died of a heart attck at 43 in '75. He was also the music arranger for "Last Tango in Paris."
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
Hmmmmm. I'll bet that was YOU I saw squirmin' passed me in the days I was a door man. I'll see YOU in detention, man.
A couple more notable film composers (obscure but excellent):
Jim Helms' score for the old Kung Fu series.
The BEST thing about The Six Million Dollar Man by far was its score. HIS name is eluding me right now, but he actually worked on the famous music in Bertolluci's Last Tango In Paris.
Gil Mille on Kolchak: The Night Stalker.
The most brilliant "needle-dropped" score in the tube's history is the old Superman series with George Reeves. Eeeevocative stuff. The gritty first season, especially.
Delayed memory moment; Albert Elms was the other fellow whose name I couldn't remember (who contributed music to "The Prisoner") from my previous posting. It popped into my head just now.
Regards,
K.
Kevin,
Oh, I've seen the Pentium 4 ads. I just liked the original Pentium 3 ads better (especially since that 4 orange is hideous).
Joseph,
Blue Man Group is now appearing in Pentium 4 ads. Only one on the tube so far, that's probably why you haven't seen it yet.
Regards,
K.
Kevin,
I'm totally with you on the Blue Man Group music. I admit to being disappointed when Intel introduced the Pentium 4, because I enjoyed BMG's Pentium 3 commercials so much. And I'm a Mac user!
For those of you have not yet experienced Blue Man Group, they're playing in New York, Boston, Chicago and Las Vegas these days. Highly worth catching - it's like watching cats play with string like it's an alien object.
David Loftus - Thanks for the heads up on "SHTOONK", but now I have another question; does "THWAP" end with one or two P's?
My two cents on film scores, Williams is overated after Star Wars. On a sentimental note, I liked his TV stuff (Lost In Space, Land Of The Giants)quite a bit. I dig Elfman, Barry, Morricone (who killed "Big Sky" music in westerns,Tank Gawd!)and I love Bernard Herrmann. Herrmann's later work is a testament to how an artist's creative powers can improve with age. Grainer's Prisoner theme is great, but he didn't do any of the scoring for the show itself. Two other composer/arrangers (Wilfred Josephs is one, I can't remember the other guy's name) did the marvelous incidental music and fanfares. They also provided great adaptations of classical and ragtime jazz pieces that helped create the intense atmosphere of that show.
Those of you who work or write to music (most of you,I'm sure) I must commend to your attention the CD "AUDIO" by Blue Man Group. Great instrumental music with a focus on percusssion. If you've seen their TV ads for Intel Pentium or have caught their live act, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Regards,
K.
Rob,
Michael's probably around the same age group as me. After all, the 1st R-rated movie I snuck into was "A Fish Called Wanda." Hey, at least I had some taste in my choice.
David and All:
For any lame oversights, errors, omissions, etc. Just bare in mind I was still a bit smashed from earlier in the evening. A pathetic, inebriated lowly animal. We go wit' dat. OK? Huh?
Having said that: I was trying to pull Nino Rota's name out of my memory circuits when I brought up the Godfather, I just couldn't seem to yank it out. At one point I had Carmine Coppola in mind, but that was on Apocalypse Now, another one I'll throw in (that may be my favorite war film of all time, btw).
I'm with you totally on Jerry Goldsmith...his best stuff is outstanding, Twilight Zone included. The one's that really "score" with me, that come to mind right now, are Man From UNCLE (btw, I think it was Lalo Schifren's orchestration of GOLDSMITH'S theme that the public came to know so well; found that out by watching UNCLE on cable recently), Papillon, Planet of the Apes, certainly Chinatown.
Blasphemous as it sounds Ravi Shankar's music in Charly just didn't stick with me, interesting as it was.
Thanks for filling in the blanks for Midnight Cowboy; Fred Neil was another name I was trying to dig up, but I knew he was there. The entire remarkable soundtrack is owed to a crosspoint of talent: Barry, Neil and Nillson.
Funny thing about John Williams: he did one memorable score after another throughout the 70's - almost another Bernard Herman (my guess is he drew influence from Hermann) but since Star Wars he's fed us NOTHING but forgettable over-bloated, amorphous stuff.
Re: Danny Elfman. Like him a lot. I was an Oingo Boingo fan. I went to Ervine Meadows three consecutive years to see them, and had a terric time. When he scores film though, I find the results a bit mixed, frankly. Sometimes I like him, sometimes I don't.
Amy,
I've wanted to see that film about R. Crumb for some
time.
Michael,
BEETLEJUICE was the first movie where you heard the word "fuck"?
Jeezus, man, what's yer problem? (g)
Harlan, I heard about the Buckhead Dante's (sad!), but I was under the impression that the underground Dante's was still going strong...am I wrong? Or is the one in the Underground not as good?
amy
Harlan,
That's how I felt when the greatest hot dog stand in the suburbs of Chicago, Irvings in Wilmette, burned down a few years back. Thankfully, they rebuilt.
David,
Thanks a lot. Now I have that damn "Courtship of Eddie's Father" song stuck in my head at ear-splitting volume.
PEOPLE LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY BEST FRIEND!
Regards,
Joseph
For Harlan, regarding online addiction:
You don't understand it until you've had it. I guess that's why I felt a little flicker of "ha ha, NOW you know" when I read your posting. You see, I was one of those people who lived online back when you were famous for your disdain of The Internet.
The big change of opinion comes when you find a group that is literate, witty, and shares your interests. I remember MY first group, which happened to be on AOL. We had a private chatroom, in order to avoid the mindless babbling Rick demonstrates so well in his faux chatroom here in Webderland. For the very first time in my life, I found myself with a group of people who knew and liked Lenny Bruce, Tom Waits, Firesign Theater, Lights Out, Hitchcock movies OTHER than "Psycho" and "The Birds," people who read books that never even registered on the New York Times bestseller list, and a few of them even liked this guy named Harlan Ellison.
This is it! I thought. Mars IS Heaven! And "our" bulletin boards and "our" chat started eating up my time. Actually, since AOL was an hourly service back then, it ate up my time AND money. (How'd you like a monthly three hundred dollar AOL bill?) It was worse than television--it was more like "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?" There they were, the perfect partners and companions, and all I had to do was turn on. I let my friendships with "real people" go, because things were easier online. I stopped eating, sleeping, and my writing suffered tremendously. I didn't write anything that wasn't meant for my online audience. So I do, I truly do understand what you're going through, though you have a very very mild dose of the sickness. It's scary when you feel compelled to do something that goes against your nature, isn't it?
Then, it all went to hell. Politics! When someone says I can't say something because it will shake up the infrastructure, f*** it. Words were exchanged, things got ugly, mistakes were made. I wound up being ostracized by a group that I helped create. Call me Snowball.
And yet, it wound up being a GOOD thing. I went back to real life. I went cold turkey from the whole online gig for quite a while. When I eventually re-introduced it into my life (because you WILL miss it), I had my priorities straight. An easy way of finding out who your friends are online is to split, and see who still keeps in touch outside of the group. I have three, from a group of more than sixty.
I no longer post ANYWHERE except Webderland. This is a happy home, and the bullshit really does seem to be kept to a minimum. It's a nice diversion. But it's something you should do when you have free time, not something you specifically make time for. That being said, I do hope to see you again, when you have time to spare.
A little embarrassed about revealing my utter geekiness,
amy
To Amy and/or Others contemplating a Dragon*Con get-together:
Dante's "Down the Hatch" in Atlanta, a fondue restaurant of extraordinary wonderfulness . . . and one of my all-time favorite restaurants anywhere . . .
Burned to the ground after half a century.
Late last year.
Gone.
Now you know how I felt when friends called from Atlanta to tell me.
Sadly, Harlan.
Holy Cow! Talk about synchronicity! I saw a film last night whose trailer I had seen three or four times in recent weeks, and while the trailer wasn't particularly misleading about the movie's plot and moods, there was something else I saw to complain about. Part of it had to do with the soundtrack ... and here you are, discussing soundtracks and composers!
The movie is Tom Tykwer's latest with Franka Potente (they both worked on "Run Lola Run," a helluva a RUSH of a film, and Tykwer also did the fascinating but cold earlier film "Winter Sleepers"). In contrast with "Lola," this one is slow, languid, but visually sumptuous, engaging, and somehow filled with tension despite its languidness. If anyone wants a plot summary, I'll do one (the film is DEFINITELY worth seeing), but I wanted to complain about another trailer problem: the previews have a terrific song -- I suspect it is Potente herself chanting the lyrics over the cool but driving rhythm track -- that does not appear anywhere in the movie! A little more disturbing, the trailer includes a brief shot of the ending, which somewhat diminished the suspense since I was obviously not seeing the shot all along the way through the rest of the film.
Rob and others listed a bunch of composers and memorable soundtracks. To give credit where it is due, most of the "Godfather" music -- in all three films -- was done by the great Italian film composer Nino Rota. Coppola probably discovered him through the movies of Fellini, for whom Rota composed since the beginning of the 1950s. My personal favorite is the score to "Amarcord," richly romantic and sentimental.
I tend not to love movie music that blows me out of my seat (you can keep "Star Wars" and Indiana Jones) but before he started doing bombast for Lucas and Spielberg, John Williams did a wonderful Western score for "The Cowboys" -- great sweeping theme, weird and woozy music for the psychopathic villain played by Bruce Dern. Another fine Western score is "The Undefeated" (John Wayne and Rock Hudson, 1969) by Hugo Montenegro.
I'm astonished that no one's mentioned Jerry Goldsmith yet. He started composing for television in 1948, did a lot of TV (Gunsmoke, The Twilight Zone -- not the theme, that was Marius Constant), and then hundreds of films, from Seven Days in May and Planet of the Apes, to Chinatown, The Wind and the Lion, Logan's Run, Poltergeist, Magic, Gremlins, Hoosiers, Alien, Basic Instinct, LA Confidential, Air Force One, and The Edge.
He caught my ear at 10 with the score (and rousing theme) to "Patton" (I have it on vinyl) and a year or two later with "Tora, Tora, Tora" (snuck a reel-to-reel tape recorder into the theater at 11).
Rob mentioned "Charly" for its director, but neglected the lovely score by Ravi Shankar (I have the vinyl). He also mentioned Nilsson in connection with "Midnight Cowboy," but Nilsson just did the vocals for "Everybody's Talkin'," which was composed by Fred Neil. (Nilsson did other film music, though, such as "Popeye" and "Me, Myself & I" -- a 1992 Jobeth Williams/George Segal movie -- and the music for the old TV show "The Courtship of Eddie's Father").
This is a recommendation, not for a particular composer, but an entire soundtrack: Crumb. While I'll never entirely buy into R. Crumb's "everything but this is crap" feeling, listening to this soundtrack is a very welcome break from the world of electronica.
amy
Rob, re:movie music as background v. foreground. A few years back I remember Betty Davis relating a story (as only she could) about one of her early movies in that she told the director that it was either her or the music (the conductor's or writer's name of the song I've since forgotten as well as which movie) who/that was going to walk down the flight of stairs in a particular scene, but not both. The director assured her not to worry that it only she would walk down the stairs w/o the music. You know the rest of the story--she of course was lied to. Most of the time I find the music intrusive (this comes from a part time musician) as it attempts to portray the mood I should be feeling. (Much like a laugh-track is suppose to tell me when a scene is suppose to be funny) The music nowadays in a movie is almost numbing as it covers the entire length of some movies. Music should be used to emphasize or jolt a scene. (a'la Psycho's shower scene, Jaw's dudududu for the shark)
Lynn:
Gypsy music…I am afraid that is one of those genres I have yet to explore. The works of Natasha Atlas and Les Negresses Vertes is the closest I have come as far as Middle Eastern music is concerned.
Alas, so much music…so little time.
Strangely enough, I have become, in the last year or so, a huge fan of Scandinavian music thanks to the excellent work Twin Cities' label North Side Records is doing in releasing the music of such groups as Garmarna, Sorten Muld and Hendningarna here in the States. What is to me the most fascinating aspect of these Scandinavian groups is that they, like Brazil's Moreno Veloso and Mexico's El Gran Silencio, are pushing the boundaries of their country's traditional native musical idioms without diluting their essence at all. Everybody is going back to their roots and creating exciting new music out of those roots.
re: Choad
Snicker. tee hee. (I'm in college, I can laugh at that...)
Curious, though, because in the past, people I know have confused the meaning of this word. Is what you looked up online the 'proper' definition (having to do with a certain proportion) or the other (IMHO incorrect) one: choad = "grundel" or " 'taint"
I feel guilty about dragging the board through the sewer like this, but I don't know anything about music--- well, I will agree that the Beetlejuice soundtrack (like so many things about the movie) was excellent.
Loss of innocence note re: Beetlejuice: First time I ever heard "fuck" on the screen. (I believe the line is "Nice fuckin' model!")
The world being a strange place, I find myself coming to Lynn's defense for her message clouting me upside the head. Lynn, you did misinterpret what I was trying to say, but it was not a totally unreasonable inference. You were stepping up to defend him against what seemed a demand that he perform on command, and I commend you for standing to his defense. (Which is not to say I don't appreciate those who came to my defense. Thanks, guys!)
Rest assured, I don't think Harlan owes us anything--not more work, not his presence here. That's what I was trying to say, however ineptly. And you'll be happy to know that while I don't have every word he's ever written, I do have over 40 of his books, including, Lord help me, bedraggled paperback copies of "Rockabilly" and "Ellison Wonderland." With the exception of the new anthology and "Medea," I've read 'em all, cover to cover. In most cases, more than once.
Now then, on film music: Am I the only Danny Elfman junkie in these parts? Yes, his music is intrusive, often commanding more attention than the visuals and story in the film, but, dang, ain't it _fun?_ I was unaware of Elfman until my wife and I took in "BeetleJuice." The opening theme grabbed me and yanked me right out of my seat. Elfman is the only composer whose credit line gets me into a theatre even if I've little interest in the film.
--Alex
ROb,
I'll be presumpteous and amend your list a bit:
James Horner for Star Trek II (especially the Mutara Nebula sequence, which is a lovely redux of World War II movie music - though for the life of me, I can't remember how Run Silent, Run Deep goes).
Bernard Herrmann, to me, achieved real brilliance with his dissonant score for Taxi Driver. A truly unsettling score.
Finally, the New Batman/Superman Adventures, so far the best adaptation of comics on screen. Now that's a theme song! The IMDB doesn't list who exactly wrote the score, but it's one or more of these three: Kristopher Carter, Michael McCuistion or Shirley Walker. Besides that, the show had some fricking brilliant vocal work. Kevin Conroy was and still is brilliant as Batman. Somebody needs to tell the IMDB, thought, that Darkseid is not spelled "Darkside."
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
COOKIE: Have you read Steinbeck's THE NOBLE ACTS OF KING ARTHUR AND HIS KNIGHTS? It's his faithful retelling/translation of Malory, unfinished because he had the bad grace to up and die mid-project.
Still, the tales he did finish are well worth the price of admission--and included in the book are his letters about the project, showing a human side of the writer. You'd be surprised how much he agonized over writer's block and whether he was writer enough to do the Arthurian tales justice ...
HARLAN: If I may again remind you of things you've said:
"And if you promise to stop NOW, Cookie, I'll come b ack and relate CHAPTER TWO of:
PORTRAIT OF THE AUTHOR IN FIERY SMOKING HELL!!!!!"
Cookie's done with the evil sticks and my quit date is still the 31st, so pony up, please?
It is my understanding Harlan is into a lot film music. Though rule books try to dictate that the score must remain a background component of a movie and not impose itself, frankly I like it when it draws attention to itself. It becomes like a co-star. My favorite rock bands aside, I’s a sensitive ear ‘cause m’ma was an Opera singer before she’d destroyed her voice with alcohol (I wasn't even four yet when that happened). I was subjected to quite a range of music when I was a growin’ boy.
I saw Harlan on Tom Snyder once breakin’ up his buddy with his high pitched rendition of Good, Bad and the Ugly. Well, I’m with him on that one. I revere the piece. Morricone had practically reinvented the film score. Before he came along just about every western had a lame soundtrack - blaring, unimaginative, with literal emphasis on every action scene.
After Leone’s epic almost every western was layered with evocative affecting scores. One of the most peculiar and KEWLIST was a western starring James Garner and Sidney Poiter called ‘Duel at Diablo’ (directed by Ralph Nelson who did Charly later on). Neal Hefti (Odd Couple fame) did a bitchin’ rousing jazz score using an electric gee-tar and heavy percussion; absolutely beautiful rhythm. For the most part it worked. Dat score vas a co-star!
Switching genres, one of my favorite film composers of all is Niklos Rozsa. There are his obvious landmarks like The Lost Weekend and Lust for Life, marked by his characteristically frenzied, neurotic style, (another great one was The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes) but a film he really endeared me to, in spite of its flaws, was George Pal’s underrated (according to ME) sf ‘The Power’. The pulsing theme played throughout the movie made use of a frenetic xylophone (accompanied by chilling telekinetically controlled heartbeats). Dat score vas a co-star!
For some of m’other everlastin’ faves, my personal Oscars go to:
Max Steiner for Kong and Treasure of the Sierra Madre.
Frank Skinner for the Rathbone/Holmes movies in the 40’s.
Obviously, Bernard Hermann for Vertigo, North by Northwest and Psycho.
Leith Stevens for War of the Worlds.
Russel Garcia for The Time Machine.
John Barry for the Bond movies and Body Heat.
Nilsson for Midnight Cowboy.
Obviously, Coppola’s Godfather.
All of Kubrick’s stuff since 2001, deluged with "needle droppings". Alex North for Spartacus as well.
Dominic Frontiere for The Outer Limits.
Alexander Courage for Star Trek.
Ron Grainer (another jazz composer) for The Prisoner and The Omega Man.
John Williams in both his Lost in Space days and for Jaws (I’ve hated him since the early 80’s, though).
Barry Gray for those British Anderson shows like UFO and the film Journey to the Far Side of the Sun.
Tarantino's needle droppings in Pulp Fiction.
Same goes for Glory, with Denzel Washington.
David Shire for All the President’s Men and Taking of Pelham One
Two Three.
The 60’s Spider-Man cartoon by Ralph Bakshi.
All of the Beatles films and Pink Floyd’s The Wall (I’m kinda cheating there, since those were about music anyway).
If you’re wondering why I haven’t anything better to do than spit this masturbatory list at you, our boss took us out for drinks after work earlier this evening because of her daughter’s birthday. I’m just climbing off the Bourbon centrifuge...right now my pc is a recovery ward.
Alejandro~ You seem to be very widely "listened"? That doesn't sound right. Hmm. Anywho, I think you get my meaning. Any recommendations for Gypsy music? I have discovered a taste for Middle Eastern (Turkish, Egyptian, Morrocan, anything by Hossam Ramzy) music and it seems there is an interesting crossover market, of all things. I was introduced to an artist called "Alabina" who sings in Arabic with a Spanish lead vocalist and backup group, and the fusion of the two cultures is nigh seamless.
Just curious if you had done any listening in that realm.
L.
Oh, cookie, do I have a couple of suggestions for you, then. Get thee to a record store and buy a copy of Moreno Veloso's "Music Typewriter" and Caetano Veloso's "Noites da Norte". Moreno belongs to a new breed of young Brazilian artists who are giving the bossa nova and the samba a more modernist, futuristic spin by subtly incorporating synthesizers and loops that enhance and complement the traditional rhythms without overwhelming them at all. It's a sweet, sweet album. And with "Noites da Norte", Caetano goes back to his more daring tropicalista experiments; as equally innovative as his son's album, "Noites da Norte" is a beautiful musical collage of Afro-Brazilian rhythms, warped electric guitars and electronic whirls. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. Then there is "Milton & Gil", the ifrst collaboration between MPB legends Milton Nascimento and Gilberto Gil. A sublime album, indeed. If you really wanna throw a party at your place, you will not go wrong with Daniela Mercury's "Sol da Liberdade". And then there is Marcio Faraco's Ciranda" and the music of Chico Cesar and so much more…
That should really get you (and any Webderlander willing to try out new and exciting sounds) going for awhile.
Unca Harlan? I wanna hear your story 'bout how you kicked the habit. When you're done with your stuff, I'll come and sit at your feet 'cause I love to hear you tell a story. You're the best!
I've been out of town for a few days and can hardly catch up. I'm psyched to learn that there's more Jay and Silent Bob in the works, though!
trying to send a message to our beloved webmaster, Rick:
(threadeddiscussionthreadeddiscussionthreadeddiscussionthreadeddis...)
love you guys! Wish I had more to add to general discussion,but all I seem to be doing these days is mothering, gigging, reading and surfing. And my reading material these days is a little odd: am reading "The Sword in the Stone" (an abridgement of White's "Once and Future King". It's okay, but to tell you the truth---and this marks me as a dweeb for life---I far prefer Mallory's "Le Morte D'Arthur." Much spicier) and a wonderful history of Bossa Nova by Ruy Castro. It's nice to learn more about this wonderful music that's brought me so much pleasure. I'm trying to learn Portuguese just so I can sing the music properly!Bossas and sambas, Brazilian popular music in general, are some of the most beautiful sounds to emanate from the Americas in the twentieth century, IMO.
Bye, kind Webderfolk!
I will be at Dragon*Con, so count me in. I can't wait to meet you all!
Saved by the power cord. Okay, since Dragon*Con was brought up again, I'd like to know how many people from Webderland are planning to attend. I really would like to plan some sort of dinner-type thing (Philly cheesesteaks if you INSIST, Harlan...ick). If there won't be many of us there, a place like Dante's might be fun.
If someone more familiar with the Atlanta area has a better restaurant suggestion, speak up, please!
Regarding movie trailers, here's one use for them--if an animated feature shows only split-second scenes, LOTS of quick edits, the animation is invariably crap. I can pick a Don Bluth film from a mile away, whether he's mentioned in the trailer credit listing or not, because he ALWAYS uses this technique.
amy
Lorin--your mention of popcorn-flinging made me think of Halloween. We always judge how well we've done by how much candy is scattered around the porch by fleeing trick-or-treaters. Did I mention that scaring kids is fun? Or that I'm evil?
Rob--Thanks ever so for your rendition of "Beware of the Blob." That damned song will be in my head for days now. And I just got rid of the Little Orphan Annie theme.
Mitch--isn't Hazlet the site of the very first (now dead) drive-in movie theater?
People who are looking for smart and edgy comedians might want to check out Eddie Izzard (if you haven't already). As for those who were down on Robin Williams' comedy--you must not have seen his bit on "Whose Line is it Anyway?"
oopsie, battery is dying.
amy
David,
You've said pretty much everything I could about movie trailers and the studio executives' crappy evaluation of audiences. Just a couple of notes:
1) Do rent "Muriel's Wedding." It's worth your time. Toni Collete is a fine actress worthy of your attention.
2) I do like two current trailers: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" and "The Others." I know the basic formula for a Kevin Smith movie, so I see things I like in it. Of course, they have to attract the people who aren't going to automatically see the movie. The trailers for "The Others" just creep me out (not to mention that I'm intrigued by the director).
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph talked about the uselessness of movie trailers. This is a problem, although some of them these days are so obvious that you KNOW you've just seen everything there is to enjoy in the movie and don't have to waste your time on the whole thing (e.g., "Gone in 60 Seconds").
What bothers me -- both as surface irritant and as a deeper sociological concern (because of what it suggests about the American populace, or at best, what film companies THINK about the American consumer) -- is misleading and mendacious trailers: previews that lead you to believe you're going to see one type of movie but you end up with another.
Fortunately, this doesn't often mean the trailer turns out to be much better than the movie (at least, that hasn't been my experience; but then, I rarely go to action thrillers and sci fi features except on cheap second run). Usually, it means the movie content has been "dumbed down" so that the trailer makes the feature look lighter, funner, frothier than it really is.
I think of two strong examples: "The Nasty Girl," which came across in the trailer as a sexy comedy about a student who sleeps with her teacher (with only incidental violence and tension), and "Muriel's Wedding," which looked like a silly girls' party flick.
I had read enough about the former to know that it was a much more serious and gripping story (based on a true event in which an undergrad turned her small town upside down by investigating Nazi collaborators who continued to live there quietly), but I skipped the latter. My wife went with friends and said it turned out to be a much more sardonic and depressing film than the previews would lead one to believe.
I realize that film distribution companies THINK they have to lure filmgoers into purchasing tickets with the promise of cheap thrills -- intimations of naughtiness, car races, things exploding -- but the scary and depressing thought is that they may be right.
David,
Actually, in proper seppuku, you are not beheaded. Your second would make sure to cut almost all the way, but not enough that your head bounced down the gravel path. Not a hell of a lot of dignity there.
For a good (if slightly sarcastic) look at the ritual of seppuku, take a look at the Aikido FAQ:
http://www.aikidofaq.com/essays/seppuku.html
Regards,
Joseph
Rick & Peg, yes I understand that point. Very much so. Perhaps I came across a little more forcefully than intended. Precision in language, eh? Perhaps I should pry my own lily white ass out of this chair once in awhile and get some fresh air or something.
Naaah.
L.
Justin:
I was going to give you grief for "cockamamy" -- hack off your head after the seppuku, kid -- but darned if the Webster's Ninth New Collegiate on my desk here didn't list that as first alternative!
I was just responding to the powerful memory that during mine auncient researches into august sources ("Mad" magazine, circa 1967-69), Don Martin, Dave Berg, Al Feldstein, and maybe even ol' Sergio Aragones almost invariably spelled it "cockamamie."
Pecksniffishly,
David Loftus
(and remember, "Shtoonk" is always spelled with two "o"s....)
Jeff,
Yeah but all trailers are useless. I think it was Roger Ebert who said that a trailer does not show the movie that had been made, but the movie that the studio wished had been made. So, we're left with reputable reviewers and the track record of Tim Burton. Personally, I think Apes has good potential, and I trust Burton's record. So, I'll see it eventually. I kind of wish Burton had made a different movie, but it's his career.
Anyway, all we've seen are action sequences. Doesn't speak for what the rest of the movie is like.
Justin,
Pardons if I'm misremembering my Japanese culture, but isn't all seppuku ritual?
Regards,
Joseph
Re: Planet of the Apes - The more previews I see, the more it looks like they got it all wrong. Yeah, Burton apparently called it a "re-telling" rather than a remake, but part of why I liked the original so much was the apes' sophisticated personalities; there was a sense that they had class, culture, a society, whereas the new ones just look dumb and cruel and generally unpleasant. I wonder if Burton's sense of the twisted won't make the film's visuals worth the price of admission, but I'm kinda worried.
~Jeff
Argh!
E-F-F-E-R-V-E-S-C-E-N-C-E
Excuse me while I nip off and go commit ritual seppuku.
J
Harlan- Your advice has been carefully read, considered, and commited (verbatim) to memory. Every time I feel as though I ought to throw off my chains and prance around my superior officers, extolling with great effervesence the virtues of creativity, individuality, and love for one's fellow man, I will pause momentarily. I will take a minute to recall your advice, and make a potentially life-saving decision. I thank you for taking the time to share some of The Wisdom with me. I need all the nudges in the right direction I can get in this cockamamy world.
I will certainly continue to post as often as possible once the Fall semester starts, and I will happily share whatever worthwhile observations I am able to make on the subject of military service and training. I didn't make a service commitment, mind you, so if the training does turn out to be so ill-suited to my personality that I find myself miserable, then I can just drop ROTC like a hot rock and chalk it up to experience. You can do two years of ROTC now without signing your life away to anybody. You *can* make a commitment up front if you want, and many people choose to do so in order to get money for college. I was actually tempted, because I could definitely use the financial assistance, and the officers present when I signed up were such a sharp and helpful bunch (I had a whole conversation with the LT about the life and work of Hunter S. Thompson...it was surreal), but I wasn't about to sign anything until I knew a lot more about what I'd be getting myself into. I may be dumber than a box of hammers, but I ain't stupid. Hopefully this ROTC program will present an accurate picture, coming out of the gate, of what one can expect from military life, so that an informed decision can be made when it comes time to make a commitment.
Swerving, jumping the tracks, and landing in an entirely different conversation patch- I dunno about you folks, but the more of these dadgum Planet of the Apes previews they run on the Teat, the more excited I get. I mean, a British talking monkey saying "BRING ME THE SPACE MAN!" That's your price of admission right there. It almost reminds me of the money line in TROOPERS- "THEY SUCKED HIS BRAINS OUT!" You see, I have a great appreciation for the finer things in modern cinema. All wiseassing-off aside though, I am looking forward to APES now.
J
p.s. I would be ever so happy if PFC Ellison would continue to visit from time to time, and that's all I have to say on the matter.
There's a Science Fiction Weekly editorial up, called "Why Harlan Ellison is Essential" at: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue222/editorial.html
Rick,
Choad?
Rummages through the Internet....
Oh.
Well, you learn something new every day, dont'cha?
ooops... Rick beat me to the point, sorta.
Lynn - Uh.... I don't usually call folks to task for their posts but, well, Alex didn't mention anything in his post about Harlan producing more work instead of hanging here.
I re-read it again, and my take was it's mostly about how the internet can suck up a whole lot more time than intended and that since Harlan already gives a lot to his fans, that he was maybe more predispositioned to fall into that.
If anything *my* post might have grazed the subject (unintentionally) and from my POV certainly seemed to imply it moreso than did Alex's.
Respectfully,
Peg
To the contrary: Alex is voicing an unselfish concern, one often echoed by spouses and friends across the nation and validated by his own experiences with other writers. Regardless of what kind of analogies we choose to draw, participating in forums such as this actually involves sitting down at a keyboard and TYPING, and by its nature is performed at times when one might ordinarily be getting business done.
However: no one is more aware of this than I, and the subject has already been broached when Harlan took his first hiatus from this board and we have already had The Conversation about it. He's aware of the dangers and he's aware of what online forums can do to your day. And, as I am sure he will come on shortly and tell you, it's been a long time since anyone made him do something he really didn't want to do.
Also, Susan has been sent a 20 ounce Steelman(tm) ball-peen hammer with instructions to cronk him in the widdle skull with it if he DOES sit at the computer for too long. And she knows how to put her weight behind it.
So let's not worry about whether or not it's a good idea, and for chrissakes let's certainly not worry about whether Alex is a total choad or not for voicing concern. There are far better avenues of conversation to be followed.
Rob~ Thanks for the kind words. You want interesting discourse, please feel free to pop by my message boards any time you like.
Alex K~ Respectfully. Wow. That is about the most selfish pronouncement I think any poster here could have possibly come up with. Bravo. If you equate this forum with a virtual coffee klatch or the local pub, that's the equivalent of meeting one of your favorite writers and saying, "Hey, good to see you here. Don't you have work to be doing?" Talk about a sense of entitlement. Why don't you just sit in the corner and chant, "produce, produce, produce". BTW, have you finished the Essential Ellison, Revised & Expanded yet? Cover to cover?
L.
"I can't be an alcoholic. I don't go to meetings."
Alex - If by "boo" you mean "nod in emphatic agreement", then consider yourself booed.
David - That was by far the best piece of advice (for me) from Stephen King's "On Writing" - pick a place as distraction free as possible to work your craft. (Followed closely by his discourse on writing when the idea strikes, lest it be overthought, overwrought, and ultimately cast aside because it's cooked for too long.)
Phillip - The quote is from "The Four Loves", though I don't have the exact citation within the book.
In reply to Phillip, it's from C.S. Lewis's The Four Loves. I can get the exact location later, if interested. I think it's in the Friendship section.
Best,
Jody Cairns
This has nothing to do with anything, but I'm looking for the source of another quote. It drives me nuts when I can't track down the exact source of a quote. For instance, I just read this quote from C.S. Lewis in an essay by someone else:
"Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art... It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that gives value to survival."
That's a nice, friendly quote, but I would like to know the exact source, what book or essay it came from. I hate it when people don't fully reference their quotes!
Any erudite Webderlanders know the exact source of this one?
Thanks in advance,
Phillip
Alex K: boo ... hiss.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way, you're absolutely right, of course. As a lifelong, sometime, increasingly semi-demi-hemi pro writer, I've never understood other people's complaints about how "hard" writing is. Writing is EASY! It's a joy, it's fun, it's very fulfilling! As John Fowles once said (to Life magazine in 1969, just after _The French Lieutenant's Woman_ was published) writing something well is almost as good as sex.
But making the psychic SPACE to write -- time on the clock and emotional/psychic energy sufficient for thoughts and imagination to congeal enough for something worthwhile to happen on paper (or on the computer screen) -- IS hard. There are too many temptations, too many potential distractions, too many ways to say to oneself "I need to relax a bit; that piece of writing can wait a few minutes/an hour/a day/a week...." People who have children and write are superhuman, in my opinion -- which is why I think quite a few writers I admire never had 'em (including someone we could easily name).
HE should feel he can use us, if this bulletin board provides him with motivation to get something worthwhile out, such as the smoking story, but if he's got something better to rapid-peck on the Olympia (or if real friends like the Koenigs are coming over), he should drop us without a second thought.
And we should devote more time to the good and creative works we have to offer the world, eventually.
Alex, you didn't piss me off. I've pretty much said similar before - it's nice to have Harlan here with us, and I'll never turn down his cheery and evocative posts, but I also understand that da man be busy ya know. He gots things to do besides sit around and flap his electronic lips with us all the time so it ain't no big thang if he drops out for a spell. Harlan's a smart cookie, so I figure he can police his visits himself.
Lynn, Alex, Finder, you guys be wise. Ok, you too Loftus. Without doubt this IS the coolest sandbox anywhere.
Well, here's where I may earn some animosity from other posters here...
Harlan, no one loves seeing you online more than I do. As you know, I've been involved with these boards for so long, I can honestly claim to run the oldest book-and-author site on the entire internet. I've delighted in watching more and more writers dip a toe in the web-waters over the decades. But.
But I've also seen a lot of damn fine writers sacrifice an incredible amount of time to web addiction. Writers whose discipline is legendary. One mutual friend of ours, who has won his share of Nebulas and Hugos, spends so much time online that he's become an _assistant_ on a forum having nothing to do with his writing. I won't name names; you probably know who I mean. I love the guy, but I think he's doing himself a disservice.
One of the things most people don't realize about you, Harlan, is that you give a lot of time to your fans. The irony of the various Mean-Ol'-Harlan stories is that you go out of your way to give a few extra minutes to the guy who showed up in the autograph line just after it closed...time you really don't have because you're already, goddamnit, due at a panel that started five minutes ago.
So, despite the kick I get out of seeing you here, my advice, for whatever paltry worth it contains, is step lightly. Visit, but not daily. And beware the internet monkey. It'll climb on your back and whisper in your ear, "Just a few minutes, just one more message, how much time can it take...."
Okay, now everybody can boo and hiss at me.
---Alex
Ah, Edward? You might want to skim through the previous few weeks of electronic interaction, massive as it is.
Cookie posts here.
It's her bid to give up smoking that has encouraged Harlan to share one of his two-fisted tales.
(I'm also the guy who will point out spinich in the teeth and let you know if you've lost a button...)
Lynn,
You encapsulated the shortcomings of interpreting online discourse beautifully. I’d been wary of the problem since being chased around the forum by Harlan’s meat cleaver a few times...something I tolerate from people who mean something to me (my girlfriend has done it to me a lot). Anyone else tryin’ that on me would have to, well, gird his/her loins for battle. Yeah, I like the sound of that. Pleases my virility...ah-hem, where was I now? (Sorry about my tendency to drift).
Seriously, you’re right on the mark: we can easily choose the words we think most suitable to convey our thoughts but may, at times, misrepresent the tone we’d had in mind. The consequent misunderstanding can range from a tiff to all-out bloody war.
If we here ARE more civil and informed than the numerous forums elsewhere (right, I don’t drop in on many myself) I believe it’s because, as I’ve expressed before, this is an arena that reflects the spirit of Harlan Ellison.
If you read Ellison it’s a given that you have brains. But more importantly it’s a place where you can strengthen the way you perceive yourself because, if for no other reason, you eventually find humility whether you like it or not. Humility is a turnpike to wisdom and self-discipline (it’s a prerequisite in learning martial arts). All butt-kissing aside, expanding your mind is what Ellison has always meant to me. We are malleable here - we have to be in order to survive - and, indeed, Harlan himself has shown to be as much so, for, as David pointed out, even just months ago he was thoroughly repelled by the idea of interacting online; even if half his purposes for the adjustment is out of practicality, hell, you do sense a touch of addiction goin’ on. I can hear the theramin even now. To be fair, though, it may be just our adaptability to different environments at work. Of course, maybe addiction plays a role in that process more than we think. We ARE an addictive species. (That's an interesting self-contained irony: malleability necessitates changing from one addiction - or habit - to another; well, so much for masturbatory musings).
Anyway, his presence here - sparse or frequent - means a lot to all of us...whatever emotional price that could mean. I'll always have my Pepto Bismol on hand (don’t tell him I said that).
I enjoyed your posting, Lynn. It was very well conveyed. (Incidentally, even though I was never a smoker I do look forward to the continuation of his Puff Saga).
Re Mr. Ellison's advice on the military: I knew I couldn't do that. I suppose I'd have my ass thrown in jail after three hours of this moronic kindergarden my country likes to call its army.
Since we must do either 8 months of military service or 11 (now 11.5) months of "alternative service" here, I chose to do something useful with my time and served at the Red Cross. The things I learned there are, in my opinion, invaluable.
At the same time, a few of my friends did military service. Their story about the idiocy of their instructors made me cringe, and *every single one* of them (even the enthusiasts who had volunteered for an entire year to make more money) came away severely disillusioned and disappointed.
Two random quickies involving Robert Blake:
I saw Capote’s ‘In Cold Blood’ for the first time just a few weeks ago. Blake was outstanding. So was Conrad Hall’s photography. Very sad, nightmarish, cerebral film with a lot of subtext.
Remember ‘Treasure of the Sierra Madre,’ ya’ll? One of m’ sempiternal favorites. There was a little Mexican kid tormenting Humphrey Bogart at the beginning of the film trying t’coax him into buying a raffle ticket. Well, that little tick was Blake.
Well, offhand, Robert Blake smokes like a chimney. Saw him once on the Tom Snyder Show and he admitted to stealing several objects. Quite embarassing really. Ol' Snyder waved his hands through the air, himself a former smoker, because Blake was sitting there puffing one cigarette after another like there was no Tomorrow.
Blake also began his career on the Little Rascals. So there's a brief association there with childhood stardom. But unless Harlan quitting smoking involves a licentious reference to the lower anatomy of a woman or a teenager named Wally or, even more bizarrely, Harlan racing around a creek with a nicotine patch trying to build a dam, I'm at a loss as to what he's hidden within his sentences. I know I skimmed over the Cookie, but this might just be a female of some sort, possibly a dancer. But I'm probably way off on this latter facet.
Paul Ridell: You can extend the rulers to occupations of the dreary variety, although my lack of any military experience bears the extension of this maxim null and void. Good to read your story.
Lynn - I only remember Apu's last name compliments of a track on the second CD of music and sound bytes from the Simpsons, ("Go Simpsonic With The Simpsons")a brief unused theme to Apu's tale "The Jolly Bengali" from the episode "22 Short Films About Springfield".
Harlan: Hmm. Lessee... "Sun Valley Cyclone", perhaps? Or "Vigilantes of Boomtown", say "Marshal of Cripple Creek" - maybe twenty or so outings with a cowboy whose name adorned an eye-threatening BB gun coveted by Ralphie Parker?
Just a hunch.
If we spot the reference can we have a Red Ryder B-B gun? That is - provided we don't shoot our eyes out with it?
You're lovely, simply lovely, all and each of you. I haven't forgotten that I still owe you folks Part 2 of YOICKS, I SEEM TO BE A-SMOKIN', LITTLE BEAVER! a tale of ashes and animus, mostly for the lovely toe-tapping favorite Cookie. I haven't fergit, honest injun. Maintaining the Little Beaver theme and, since y'all asked, no, I don't think Robert Blake killed his wife.
(Now let's see how many of you beyond Barney, Tim and Loftus can figure out THAT six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon-sort-of linkage.)
Reassured that you still wuv me, but nonetheless still mulling it over, I remain, yr pal, Harlan.
I don't know which is scarier, that Finder *knows* Apu's last name or that *I* knew who he was talking about.
More like the Simpsons, Less like the Waltons!
L.
David, Lynn - Well said.
Peg - What is it you once referred to this place as? Our electric eclectic coffee clatch? I love that. It simply fits. I like it here because I can be me; I can check my crappy real-world life at the door, kick back, listen to a dozen people ramble on about three-score topics, soak up the atmosphere, forget my problems for a little while, throw in a useless fact or a pertainant experience, swap a story - but I come here first and foremost because I get a lot out of it. I'm more culturally enriched here than most other places I'd care to hang out on a regular basis (let's face it, the bartender at Ruby Tuesdays would ask "How do you make one of those?" if I mentioned the Aeneid in his presence). This is a good place, with stand-up people of wit, of conscience, of intelligence and of self-expression. Aside from shopping mom and pop bookstores nationwide, it's one of the few reasons I pay Mindspring once a month.
Harlan - in the words of that most humble Quik-E-Mart manager Apu Nahasapeemapetilon, "Thank you! Come again!
Harlan,
I was hoping the USPS was slow but sure, but as of today I have not received the EDGEWORKS Vol 1. I did, however, receive a package from Susan with the last few Rabbit Hole issues that I missed out on. Many thanks. I sent out payment this week for my copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS. I did include the appropriate address to prevent any future confusion.
A quick follow up on my ESP column. My original signed copy of EDGEWORKS has been awarded to one of my kind readers. Once she shows proof of her promised $125.00 contribution to KICK, I'll deliver the goods. All in a day's work.
Best to you and Susan,
K.
Harlan & Co.~
It takes a brave man to step up and admit he doesn't know something (or possibly, in your case, everything). One of the things you need to learn about the Internet and message boards is that we are all human and as such, tend to put our feet in our mouths with some regularity. The printed word does not, by its very nature, contain all the nuances of face-to-face conversation. Things get read too quickly and misconstrued. People sit down to read their messages after having an argument or bad commute, and they bring the color of their world with them into reading the day's posts. It's the same thing as sitting down to discuss a story that you've written with a reader and discovering he's gotten something entirely different out of your words than what you put into them. It's a fact of life, especially in this new and dynamic age of electronic communication.
Now, I for one have been amazed at the level of maturity and decency on this board. These things are mere misunderstandings compared to the thermonuclear, incendiary, mosh pits of "conversations" (and I use the term loosely) on Usenet. And if people self-censor here, well? You honestly think that a bunch of your fans are going to become the lock-stepping, jack-booted, dittoheads of Ellisonia? Puh-lease. You should know us better than *that*! Heck, you TAUGHT us better than that. If someone thinks they need to self-censor, it's our responsibility, nay our duty to set them straight. And if a body doesn't hang out here long enough to know the personalities and the players, well, the loss is entirely their own. You only get out of it what you're willing to put in.
The level of conversation here is far above and beyond any other I have ever had the pleasure of participating in. {THIS IS NOT ASS-KISSING) I for one am extremely grateful for your presence on this forum and hope that you continue to share your wit and wisdom. I've learned so much about myself as a writer and about myself as a person while in your company. And that ain't nothin' but the truth. You don't owe us anything, not even the pleasure of your presence, but we certainly cherish it.
Even if you do call me 'cute'. :P
L.
PS. It occurs to me that there are several tools currently unavailable for use on this board. The ability to edit a post after it has been posted, for one. The ability to quote another's post being another. Rick, you do know that you can limit the tool I showed you to just one thread.
salt *mine*, darn it.
I suppose I should grab my toothbrush & bucket of suds now and head on over to the latrine....
I hope you were smiling when you typed that, Ray.
Don't beat up on yourself, Alex Jay B. Nobody's gonna blame you if HE disappears again -- I know I'm not.
After all, folks, take a step back and look at the broader perspective. A year ago, who among us would have thought Mr. Ellison would EVER be exchanging jibes and favorite stories and movies with us on the Web? NOBODY! The man was famous for disdaining computers, let alone the Internet.
And what does he all but tell us today? Though he may have ventured on briefly for research purposes, so he would know SOMETHING of what he was talking about if the AOL case came to a real juridical shoving match ... he got hooked, just like the rest of us, however briefly. He's addicted, and that's partly because he found the company of most of us perfectly wonderful. Isn't that great?
Certainly he doesn't owe us any more posts, just as he never owed us the stories that have juiced our lives. It was great to have him around, but if we don't see him again (and something tells me that even if he wisely cuts down his Web time in favor of more productive -- for him -- activities, he may stop back in once again on a rare occasion), we were blessed to have seen him at all.
Darryl: cool military version of the Mickey Mouse club song, although the "Forever may we" line doesn't scan -- it's missing three syllables to fit nicely into the melody line, but that's easily remedied. Anyway, it reminds me of another version that you'll find in Thomas Pynchon's debut novel, _V_:
"Who's the little rodent that gets more than you or me?
F-U-C-K-E-Y Y-O-U-S-E."
Justin - Paul, Harlan, and Darryl said what I meant far better than I did (well, certainly more emphatically!).
I was like Finder. My folks - wanting to save money and being military heritage - thought it would be just peachy keen if I joined ROTC to enable my college funding. I wisely declined. I'd had enough trouble living with my dad's authoritative parenting methods (Sicilian, Roman Catholic, and former CPO, or as I have heard before, "he didn't just make chief, he made God") that I was either going to college AWAY from home, or end up in therapy. And he was retired AND he loved me. It'd have had to come down to the joint or join up, and it woulda taken a pretty ugly cell mate to convince me.
Well, I've done beat that dead horse enough. Time to go beat something else.
Peg
(I'm just onery tonight 'cause my vacation is over and it's back to the salt mill tomorrow).
Hey nice work Berman.
Harlan: Please DO stick around. It's a blast hangin’ out and shootin’ the shit with you.
RE Harlan's advice to Justin: That's precisely why (though the Navy tried with all their might to recruit me) I wouldn't have survived the military - lo, though I be an accomplished practitioner of the fine art of keeping my mouth shut and my eyes open, that Little Sarcastic Bastard who dwells within loves to jazz it up when an opening aches to have something caustic thrown through. And he's QUICK, man. It's a terrible thing, to be left flapping in the breeze by something that's escaped before Ye Olde Self-Filter has engaged.
Harlan - busted from General down to PFC and back in the barracks already, huh? Okay, who had July 25th in the company pool?
Darryl - I'd believe your stories; I've worked with at least eight former military (mostly Marines, but a couple of Army, too) in the last six years, and some of the tales I heard at so-called "happy" hour put my hair on end. Of course, I also have one of them to thank for my current response to incompetence in the workaday world: Charles, who used to refuel helicopters for Uncle Sam and who originated from rural Missouri would look at me when corporate stupidity reared its foolish head, and would say with full sincerity, "Doug, that don't make no damn sense." And double-negative aside, he was usually right.
Scary film? Never really had one, per se - elements of a lot of different films have unnerved me, but growing up in a police household, where one was likely to hear about a dismembered torso found in a van along the side of the road or the remains of a ritual animal sacrifice a couple towns over as part of my father's answer to "How was work, dear?", well, horror has always had a less cinematic face than, say, George Romero's living dead.
Scary reads? There are a few more than there are films. Mark Danielewski's "House of Leaves" rattled me good (I'm not a big fan of indoor darkness. The woods? No problem. The pitch-black inside of a suburban home? You'll need a stick to pry me out of the fetal position.) When I was younger, Charles Beaumont once caused me a string of sleepless nights - but what a wonderful path to insomnia his is. But the runaway winner is Stephen King's "Misery", by benefit of the girl I went to college with who was the living embodiment of Annie Wilkes - with the possible exception of a past riddled with clandestine murder (and in all honesty, I only rate that a possible exception, because she was OUT THERE and functioned with zero culpability). Forget Kathy Bates - to this day, I can only picture this girl as Annie, and I still get a shiver when the similarities creep back to mind
Susan,
Thanks for the SLEEPLESS NIGHTS update. Look forward to receiving it.
John Q.
Going back over previous posts (it's been a while since I've been out here, but I've been busy trying to find gainful employment in the Land of the MBA), I realized that one of the creepiest bits of entertainment around was one of the reasons why I survived the Army. I am, of course, talking about the Fox series "Malcolm in the Middle". Coming from a guy who still bawls his eyes out at the end of "Alien", who cheers on Bub the Friendly Zombie at the end of "Day of the Dead", and who still threatens to cold-cock the first twit who quotes that "Raptors were smarter than whales or dolphins..." line from "Jurassic Park III", that series scares the shit out of me. In fact, the show is so much like life in the Riddel household circa 1983 that I suspect someone rigged video cameras in my old house, and I expect royalties when the show goes into syndication.
For those who haven't watched the show, just consider that it's not _exactly_ like my adolescence: my childhood was a lot less funny. Last year, my youngest brother Martin came out to Dallas to visit, and we sat down to watch a new episode. We finished that half-hour alternativing between laughing ourselves hoarse (because we were all too familiar with the situation) and sinking our fingernails into the hardwood floor in utter terror. He's threatened that if I ever call him "Dewey", he'll personally stomp me, and I believe him.
Well shit shit shit.
That was NOT the response--if any--I had hoped to elicit.
This is what I get for not sleeping.
If you feel you can, Harlan, do please stick around. It's a joy to have you here in the forum that is, after all, about you. It's akin to Peter David's postings on his newsgroup, or JMS' or Kevin Smith's enjoying of their own message boards.
Also, it raises the conversation bar--a bar that was already pretty high--for us here. I can understand where you might sometimes want to cut down on the time spent here shagging fungoes, but there's no need to take your ball and go home ...
(Hey--Lois McMaster Bujold, Patricia Wrede, Lawrence Watt-Evans, Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennett, and many more post regularly and profusely to rec.arts.sf.composition--and have even credited the group with inspiration, so ...)
I realize nobody really gives a damn about my two bits about Army life, but I had it relatively easy. I was only in for two months back in 1984: I joined for some right reasons (money for college) and some incredibly stupid reasons (any excuse to get out of Lewisville, Texas seemed to be a good one), but it was all moot, because I came down with a bout of pneumonia that put me in the hospital for a week. During the shakedown (and contrary to popular opinion, a week in an Army hospital is NEVER a restful experience), the doctors found I had asthma and sent me home. (Actually, they suspected that I knew that I had it and tried to get me to confess, which would have gotten me sent home with a charge of Fraudulent Enlistment, but I honestly didn't know. My folks did, though: my mother told me afterwards "Oh, we knew you had asthma since you were six months old. We just didn't tell you about it." Thanks, Mom.)
Even so, I ended up learning a lot. Compared to the mindgames in the Riddell family, I could play most drill sergeants like a violin: the trick is to present yourself as such an honest and upright boy that they'll never suspect you of anything when you _do_ break the rules. Of course, you'll feel compelled to break every rule that comes along: the impression is what matters. (Or, to put it another way, about half of the people here know me, and they think that I'm an upright, fair, honest person who would NEVER bury the local Jehovah's Witnesses up to their necks in the back yard and run the lawn mower. This is the importance of impressions.)
As it was, I left with several good bits of advice, because I was in just long enough to learn important lessons without being in long enough to get court martialed for my smart mouth. The first was to pretend to be dumber and more boring than everyone else, but to take advantage of every resource available to you while it's being offered. The second is that the military is one grand comedy if you know enough about it to take advantage of the inherent inefficiencies and stupidities. The third is NEVER to make a career out of it if you have any plans for the future, and never to give any impression that you have plans of that sort. (This comes in handy for the work environment, too: as much as it hurts my monstrous ego, I learned a long time ago that keeping a day job to pay the bills while writing means never mentioning the writing.)
The fourth and most important lesson was one actually taught me by the works of Hunter S. Thompson, who described the Air Force as an experiment in mass lobotomy using rules instead of scalpels. This applies to all of the branches, and no amount of chuckling about how much my drill sergeant resembled John Cleese (to the point where I would have been willing to remain in the Front Leaning Rest position for days just for the opportunity to answer him "Yes, Meester Fawlty: I know nooooothing") would make up for this. I have to agree with everyone else who has mentioned the beginning of "Full Metal Jacket" as being very true-to-life: the first time I saw that film, I could _smell_ my old barracks.
Otherwise, I have nothing else to say. Considering that my younger brother Eric (Ron Post to my Russ) is halfway through his career in Special Forces, I figure that Army life is appropriate for some people. Of course, Eric's only doing what he'd do anyway in civilian life, and he's getting commendations instead of thirty-to-life (I swear, he's the only person I've ever met who knew how to make black powder at the age of five, and he understood the power of caltrops at six and was demonstrating such on our elementary school playground), so we should all be thankful that the Army's keeping him occupied.
Alex Jay:
If my (intended as) lighthearted defense of my pal Robin strikes you, or anyone else here, as a deterrent to the voicing of contrary opinions, mild or severe, let me reassure you, as I have at least a dozen times previously (sorry about the advanced pre-Alzheimer's, Alex Jay) that I consider myself a visitor here, not the Plantation Massah who will whup yo ass if you disagree with me, or gibe at me. This is YOUR forum, kiddywinks, and even though--for instance--I like and admire Chris Carter enormously, and he has been both gracious and encouraging to me, as well as having done me a couple of very nice favors for which I'm considerably in his debt . . . I don't work for the man, I am in no thrall to him or his production company, and like you I have serious reservations about the show, which I've expressed to Chris on the few occasions when we've been in each other's company. Because someone is my friend, does not mean I turn a blind eye to the quality of the Art they produce. Ask my longtime friend Chip Delany, or even Robin, who has asked me point-blank what I thought of several of his films, to which queries I've given answers far more explicit and contrary than anything ANY of you have written here.
But they are still my friends, and I am moved--in a non-fractious way--to threaten your lives if you run down my buddies. I am a good friend, but not an idiot, despite my embracement of the nickname Imbecile.
I have considerable reservations about logging in here, particularly since I seem to have fallen into the habit with greater frequency than ever I intended. That, to be short and candid about it, is because of the quality of your company, all of you. I enjoy conversation, and even though I despise most of what the internet does and offers and portends, this lawsuit against AOL/RemarQ/Critical Path has compelled me to familiarize myself with what's going on, so I don't fumfuh and sound like such an out-of-touch boob during my depositions.
I went away a few months ago, for a not-particularly-shadowy reason, but have--as you can see--returned in spades. Alex's ruminations give me impetus to rethink my appearances here. Yes, I know the upside, no need to reiterate. But Alex makes good points, and so I'll have to dwell on this.
And, knowing you beasts, I forbid you (as if you give a shit about my directives) to beat up on Alex in any way, because his heartbreaking accusations have crippled my gentle spirit, and probably deprived you of your candy.
All the foregoing notwithstanding, say what you like about whatever and whoever. Whenever.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Justin: I was drafted. Two years. 1957 to 1959. I despised every moment of it. Here is a piece of advice for you . . . and please log it into your brain as seriously as "never step on a scorpion" or "never get involved with a woman who has bigger problems than yours" (credit Nelson Algren for that last aphorism). What I'm saying here is the equivalent of NEVER FEED THE GREMLINS AFTER MIDNIGHT!!!!!
This is a MAJOR piece of advice. It can save your ass.
(Have I laid in enough road signs of PAY ATTENTION? Good. Here it is:)
Keep your head down. Let no one know you are as clever, as well-read, as articulate, and as snotty as you are. Be a drone. Get pale; get transparent, if you can. Under no circumstances let fly one of those clever retorts always lingering just behind your palate. Be mediocre. Be just good enough to draw no attention to yourself. Do the job at a C+ level, but do not attempt to aspire to command or outstandingness. In short, behave in the ROTC in a manner exactly the opposite of how you present yourself here in Webderland, where individuality and cleverness are treasured. In that heavily-structured milieu, deny and sublimate everything you've ever aspired to; assume a bland identity; be so unobtrusive that your drill instructor or Sergeant or whoever is in charge---has to struggle not only to remember your name, but looks right through you when his eyes travel down the rank. Deny all the smarts and cleverness and striving for excellence we propound here. Be unseen. If you make friends, make friends with the bully(ies) in the unit. But never never never let them know how much, how widely, and how well you think and read. Keep sharp, be wary, and remember that the military is NOT the real world. It is a superimposed cultural pre-continuum that abides by rules intended to level you, scrape off the sharp edges you wear with pride, and make you a cipher for the ends of a brainless autocracy.
Be the wind, Justin. Cast as small a shadow as you can.
In terms of the military, no one has ever given you better information and advice than this.
I was courtmartialed three times. Never convicted, but I came THIS close to Leavenworth on at least five occasions. This is straight from the mule's mouth, kiddo. You've been advised; now you're on your own. (When you muster out, get back to us and tell all of us if I was right, or if I'm outdated.)
Good luck, kiddo. Yr. pal, the former 6-star General recently broken yet again to PFC, Harlan.
Hullo,
There was a point when I was reading a lot of both Harlan's and Neil Gaiman's work at the same time and I started to see them as a pair of opposites,...something like how Oskar in Gunter Grusss the Tin Drum sees Goethe and Rasputin, to give some kind of example. I still think it. Am I the only one? I know of a girl who sees that about Greg Egan and Heinlein. There is a contrast between everything about their work. Over-simplistically it might be that Gaiman is the optimist. (I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream is a bleak thing.) Beyond that is the tone, of fable and uncertain recollection. Dreaminess and a crystalline sharpness. Brit and American? Comfort and awakening?
Naiki
My SO shares the story about going to RIP at Ft. Benning and getting a TI named McCoy. Now I realize this means nothing to you until you know the simple fact that my SO's name is Hatfield.
"I got a job here. Everybody but Hatfield take a step back. Damn, you're one volunteerin' sonnovabitch, aintcha, Hatfield?"
We're considering changing the name to Heatherfield (the original English family name) when we wed.
L.
Joseph,
Ain't that a bitch?
Okay, just for the hell of it, I decided to see if the Braves are in town for the weekend of Dragon*Con (hey, I've never been to Turner Field - figured I'd take in a game).
Who's in Atlanta that weekend? The Cubs.
*Sigh*
I go a thousand freakin' miles, and the Cubs are still there. Story of my life.
Ah, what the hell. I'll go anyway. How's the food at Turner Field?
My lottery number for the Vietnam draft (one lottery you did not want to win) was 256. I was saved.
OK, OK, I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but here goes, my first (hopefully only) military service story.
Long post.
I was shovelin' shit in Louisiana (military movie reference, but I really was in Louisiana) when a bunch of us decided to go into the Marines. Get into boot camp at 21 years of age. Go thru the usual B.S. during the first week, when we finally get assigned to our permanent Drill Instructors. As Mr. Ellison can attest, sometimes DI's just don't like the way you look, so they start messing with you. Drill Instructor Sgt. Foreman decided to start with me. He asked that supposedly unanswerable question, no matter which way you answer, you get the pleasure of doing I.T. (Incentive Training. A wonderful experience of doing excercises in front of the platoon until the DI gets tired, or you throw up, whichever comes first. Foreman comes to me and says, "Lawrence, do you LIKE me?" Yes, and you're IT-ing for being a suspected homosexual (this was WAY before "don't ask, don't tell"), no, and you're IT-ing for hurting the DI's feelings. Two other DI's were watching. My answer. "Sir, it is not the place for the private to like or dislike Drill Instructor Sgt. Foreman, only to use Drill Instructor Sgt. Foreman's knowledge and experience to perhaps make the useless private into a lean, mean killing machine, and a credit to the traditions of the United States Marine Corps..." DI screams STOP. Long pause. "Lawrence, you been to college, huh?"
I have to second the motion of Mr. Ellison about the movie Full Metal Jacket. I happened to see it while I was still in, in a theater in Berkeley, CA. A couple of us went to see the movie. The first 45 minutes or so, while the platoon is in boot camp, is as near you can come to the experience without being there. The crowd in Berkeley were laughing, as though the scenes were fiction. Those scenes were chillingly real.
I could tell you more stories, but you wouldn't believe any of them. The astonishing waste of time and money, the absolute ignorance that people are better at some things than others, and on and on. I'll end by teaching you the song we made up, and sang--with reason--nearly daily. To the tune of the Mickey Mouse club theme song...
F-U-C,
K-E-D,
A-G-A-I-N.
F***ED AGAIN.
F***ED AGAIN.
Forever shall we clinch them tight,
TIGHT, TIGHT TIGHT.
Regards,
Cpl. Darryl_Lawrence. USMC (ret.)
P.S. 6-Star General Ellison, SIR, proud to be part of your Division, SIR.
Harlan:
Sorry about the delay in replying to your question; I was out yesterday. I've looked at the material you sent, am pondering my response, and will have it back in the mail shortly.
Why was I out yesterday? I set the alarm for 4:30 a.m. and was at the downtown Portland Hilton by 5:10 to get in line for a 9:00 audition for "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire." Short report: I was one of the few who passed the tough written exam, got Polaroided and videotaped, filled out an info sheet to suggest how interesting Regis and the viewers might find me ... and now I wait. (Oh, I also won a "Millionaire" T-shirt by beating everyone else in the room to the answer of a ridiculously simple question about John Reed's _Ten Days That Shook the World_.)
I am not a fan of the show, by the way. I see it probably less than once a month. But I am a fan of money, and coupled to the usual resentment ("I could do much better than those turkeys"), I have the motivation to try for the hot seat. I'll use the money to organize my own book tour, because I suspect my little publisher does not have the resources to finance one when my book comes out early next year.
I have nothing to say about military service. Never had the slightest interest in it, and I KNOW I wouldn't get along if I found myself there. My Dad served in the Army (he enlisted to get out of a bad marriage, I think) and went to Korea, but managed to avoid combat by playing in a band and serving as an assistant chaplain/organist, despite probably being an atheist. By the mid 1960s he was angrily protesting the Vietnam War in marches with kids quite younger than he.
Sorry I never caught "Nowhere Man." It was filmed in the area around where I work, so I'd probably recognize some of the settings.
And yes, the Dennis Leary fan really needs to catch "The Job." One would think TV hardly needs another cop show, but this one is hilariously sardonic.
Scattershots--
To my surprise, I got "The Essential Ellison" from Amazon yesterday. I'd forgotten putting it on order, lo, months before ordering the signed limited edition from Morpheus. I'm not sending it back, though. I'll use it as a prize in some online contest or another. Thus do we make tax deductions of our errors.
Emmanuel, while Harlan reports he's written naught about MS, there's a writer not entirely unlike Harlan who has. Stanley Elkin often reminded me of Ellision, with his passion, his yiddish-influenced patois and style, and his lush prose. He wrote directly about his own MS in the essay collection "Pieces of Soap," less directly in some of his fiction. I recommend his novel "The Franchiser" and "Her Sense of Timing," a novella from the collection "Van Gogh's Room at Arles."
On the military life: being 4-F, I never enjoyed the comraderie of the barracks, much less the joys of a sunny vacation in the Mekong Delta. This never broke my heart. Perhaps this hole in my background accounts for my lack of discipline. I shall make an attempt to remedy this with a trip to a leather goods store. Why do I suddenly hear echoes of the old Phil Austin recording where Nick Exxon ran a personal ad? "Need tall woman for black leather fun. Make me behave!"
That said, I remember reading Matheson's "The Beardless Warriors" when it was still relatively new and adoring it. It was my favorite war novel when I was a kid. When I returned to it as an adult, it seemed to me a great war novel--for kids. It's not Matheson's strongest work by any means.
--Alex
Peg,
I agree that it can be hard to be part of the stream of consciousness conversations. In my case I'm 17 hours ahead, so in fact I'm here before they actually happen..... where is my TARDIS?
Your friendly Gallifreyan,
Dr Bull
PEG:
Well, I work from 4 p.m. to 3 a.m., so I face a time difference as well--albeit not quite as dramatic as yours. Herll, the mere fact that I'm awake now, at 6:30, points that up.
Though, to be honest, this has turned into a no-sleep night; I've a meatloaf that just finished cooking and now has to cool, I've had a lot of writing to do, and today/tomorrow will see a lot of errands downtown (like getting comics! Woo-hoo!).
The time lag was great when one of my best friends in the world was living in New Zealand, but now that she's here in the States, I tend to run out of conversation partners ...
*lengthy post warning*
Justin,
First a disclaimer: this is my personal opinion so there will be others who violently disagree. They're welcome to disagree. I wasn't in the military myself and have no plans to be. But I've known a lot of folks in the military and my opinion is based on a lifetime of encounters with such folks, including the before and after photoshoots.
Be forewarned, the military has a way of perverting and warping many a soul who enter. Some come out unscathed, a few even improved, but most... well, the grisly remains aren't pretty. The ROTC may be slightly better than enlisting, but I'm not gonna place bets on it.
I speak from experience lad, I come not just from a Navy family, but all my male relatives (uncles, dad, cousins) save 1 or 2 were in the military (mostly Navy), 2 or 3 of the female relatives and a few inlaws to boot. Then there's the countless encounters with other military personnel through these folks, and a friend or two of my own.
I'll skip the details, suffice to say that my husband is one of the few who thinks he got some benefit, and it's benefit I've personally seen later demonstrated (as opposed to folks who thought it did them some good but based on the evidence of their lives it was only brainwashing). He believed the Navy gave him motiviation to really apply himself and do something else with his life Navy because, as he and his colleagues in the nuclear engine room on a 35 year old converted surface cruiser put it, they'd have been happy to flip burgers instead of what they had endured. And my husband did put that motivation to use - he continues to be one of the most self-motivated people I know, having taught himself most of his own computer skills, acheived a stellar college record, and started his own business.
[Sidebar - this is similar to a good friend in college who finished his degree but decided he didn't want to go into the field. He joined the Army ROTC, quit that and went enlisted instead, and found it so miserable that after he got out he got his masters in math and became an actuary (I think that's the right term??) in the insurance industry.]
But I digress (worthy though the topic of my wonderful hubby may be). The military does not always respect or even tolerate intelligence or individual thought or strong personalities. Given you've already demonstrated at least two of those traits in your post, well, the ride may be a bit bumpy. Justin, keep your wits about you and remember who you are and that this is only temporary.
And, of course, seek refuge in Wedberland whenever you can!
Best of luck,
Peg
(PS - it's awful hard to be part of the stream of consciousness conversation on this board when you're facing a 6 - 10 hour time difference from the majority of the posters! Does anyone else on this side of the atlantic agree???)
Damn, there's a lot of bandwidth being ever-so-greedily consumed here in Webderland ...
HARLAN: Gustav Hasford was a Clarionette? I never knew.
But ... for all the fun of R. Lee Ermey-ing it up, weren't you the bashful fellow who, upon first treading in these waters, wondered if he would perhaps do better to excuse himself, for fear we intrepid Webderlanders might censor ourselves and tremble in Ellison-induced timidity with your face popping in here?
If I wanted or thought it right, I'd bash Robin Williams as an actor, a comedian, a philanthropist, whatever. As long as I wasn't unduly abusive, there'd be no call to kick me out.
(Granted, I'm a huge Williams fan, and have been ever since he was doing Lenny Bruce/Richard Pryor/Lord Buckley pastiches in standup)
I should feel no fear when I tell this board, the world, and you that I've always found your friend Chris Carter's THE X-FILES to be derivative and muddy--and that I lost all respect for the man himself when he screwed over James Hudnall, the creator of the HARSH REALM comic book from which the show was drawn.
If I disagree with you or anyone else about music, art, writing, or whatever--so long as I say why and back it up with rational and/or entertaining arguments--that's dandy-fine.
Sorry for the polemic, but it just struck me odd.
(Besides, though my daddy did a stint in the Air Force, I'm 4-F, so I'm not all that intimidated when someone screams that he's going to rip off my head and stick his fur-covered banana down my neck, y'know?)
SCOTT: You should have seen the recent ABC show THE JOB. Created by and starring Dennis Leary, it's a darkly funny look at the life of a harried not-so-nice cop. My friends in blue all agree that it's one of the closest representations of cop life to ever grace the screen (All hail HOMICIDE, of course ...).
And get yourself to www.billhicks.com QUICK! Discover all you can, click on all the links, download all the files, go and pick up the man's albums, delight to the man I think was the greatest standup talent since Lenny, Carlin, and Pryor.
And weep at his being taken too soon by pancreatic cancer.
Susan, I neglected to mention- The checks for SLEEPLESS and KICK went out early last week.
Now, about this "nightmare of military service." As I may have mentioned before, I'm a few weeks away from getting my first little taste, in the Army ROTC Battalion at the U of Arizona. I don't know exactly what I'm in for...but I know enough to know that I'm just an experience-hungry know-nothing punk, with the opportunity to peer into a whole new world. I think it wise to take advantage of this, and other opportunities that present themselves, if I ever want to evolve into a better person. Besides, I need to accumulate experiences if I want to write good stuff when I gwow up, yes? So that's one reason why I'm doing it. It's not just youthful stupidity or an overwhelming desire to slap on a helmet, and go make large quantities of ammunition smack into the flesh of strangers. That's only about 80% of the reason. Muhaha.
I merely jest. I just wanted to make it clear, what with all this anti-military sentiment floating around, that I'm not some kinda fool.
I wonder- were you forced into da soivice, Harlan, or did you have a choice in the matter? Just curious.
Punk
Gunther - Thank you SO much for bringing up "Nowhere Man". While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?
Every now and then, the thousand monkeys pounding away in Hollywood crank out something uniquely brilliant, which dies prematurely. "Nowhere Man" was one of them. And here I'd just gotten over "Cupid"...*sniff*
As for "Planet of the Apes", the Rodney King line made me cringe as well, but I'll reserve judgement until I see it. In Burton We Trust.
Mitch
Debbie,
Yeah, I picked up that anthology myself. Interesting selection of stuff, though I found some interesting anomalies:
1) Terry Hillerman, a writerof American southwest mysteries, is the editor. While he's a fine editor, I just find it humorous, since the majority of American mysteries from the 20th century are urban pieces. Certainly doesn't detract from his and the other editors' choices.
2) I'm still not sure what Harlan's "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" was doing in anthology of mystery stories. I mean, it's a brilliant and important story, but is it a mystery? Granted, the "Best American" anthologies often have a quirky choice (look at "The Best American Sport Writing of the Century," which has a Mike Royko column reviewing a Keith Hernandez bio about the 1986 World Series: "It's a very sturdy book. I know this because when I opened the package and saw the cover, I threw it across the room and stomped on it a few times.")
Any thoughts on the selection, Harlan? Especially since they ignored you for "Best Short Stories"....
Regards,
Joseph
Um, Sarge (n'any other music lovers who deserve this), your attention here for a moment, please:
...it creeps
And leaps and glides and slides
Across the floor
Right through the door
And all around the wall
A splotch, a blotch...
Beware of The Blob,
it creeps
And leaps and glides and slides
Across the floor
Right through the door
And all around the wall
A splotch, a blotch
Be careful of The Blob.
Jist BEAUT-ee-ful, ain't it?
Implacable Forever n'Never-To-Be-Promoted,
Private Rob
(Delurking for a moment) If there is a get-together at Dragoncon, count me in. This will be my fourth Dragoncon and I enjoy it more each time. Should be fun!
Also, this is probably old news to everyone, but I picked up this book a couple of weeks ago called "The Best American Mystery Stories of the Century" and discovered "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" in it. Of course I bought it and and have been enjoying reading stories by Hammett, Runyan, Chandler and many others. It's a very good collection.
Bye! (Scurrying back into lurkdom)
Harlan: With all this military chat, wonderin' if "The Beardless Warriors" by Richard Matheson is recommended, as I saw a reissue in the bookstore last week. Also, thank you for "Sleepless...", which arrived in pristine condition. Did you see Scott Edelman's nice editorial about the release of the 50th Ess. Ell. @ scifi.com?
Sheesh! I'm going to have to start reading this board on an HOURLY basis to keep up. Don't you people know you're ruining my professional life? Have you no shame? (I guess that's a dumb question, now that I think about it.)
SUSAN: Just a quickie to let you know the check is now in the mail for SLEEPLESS. Thanks for holding it, and sorry it took so long.
ALL: I have to second (and third) votes for DAWN OF THE DEAD, WAIT UNTIL DARK, and the scary doll portion of the TRILOGY OF TERROR. DAWN was actually one of only TWO movies I've ever walked out on in my life, and I did so with an entire group of (then-)teenaged friends. Round about the pencil-in-the-ankle portion of the program we just looked at each other and fled en-masse.
Saw WAIT UNTIL DARK in college, and the moment toward the end when Alan Arkin leaps out of the bedroom at Audrey Hepburn made about a dozen people fling popcorn all over the place. It was tremendous.
My scariest moment EVER, though, was seeing Alice Cooper on "Don Kirshner's (sp?) Rock Concert." I was, I'd say, maybe six or seven and sleeping over my cousins' house. They were all older, and for some reason had gone outside (probably to smoke pot) and left me there in the dark, in a gloomy 70's era rec. room, with this dark paneling that had the most ominous-looking knot holes. In fact, I always thought they were like those scary abstract faces at the beginning of the revamped CREATURE FEATURE (but I digress).
Anyway, there was Alice with his snake and his black mascara eyes and his electric chair. I was beyond terror. In fact, I think my folks had to schlep from Stamford, CT to Jericho, Long Island to come pick me up because I was too freaked to sleep there - even in my aunt and uncle's room.
Later on, anytime Alice appeared on a talk show, my mom would make a point of calling me into the room so I could see what a nice person he was "in real life." But, of course, the damage was done!
Over and out, y'all --
Lorin
I tried to send you a message previously, but I don't have the hang of these new-fangled gizmos yet. I just wanted to say that you called me after a piece I wrote in The Comics Journal. I was truly flattered by your call, since I've read your work for years, but while we were on the phone, my daughter fell down the stairs, so I had to get off rather abruptly. But it meant a lot to me me, and I wanted to thank you. I still haven't haven't copies of my favorite stories, but the Denver Post had an article recently on your copywright lawsuit and a couple books which I have not been able to find. I'll keep looking. Best wishes,
Marilyn
Reporting in to Sgt. Ellison!
This really sucks, Sarge. In half the earth’s rotation I had m’ face pushed in dawg shit and m’po’ ass delegated to a rat-infested mess hall. With all due respect, SIR, anaerobic bacteria in a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea episode gits better treatment n’this. SIR. Dang it, Sir! I feel like spume from the base of a toilet bowl in Chernobyl. With yer p’mission, SIR, I’d like to retire now n’go become part of a landfill. SIR.
Emmanuel: as far as I can recall, I've never written about multiple sclerosis. Don't know why it's never shown up in such an extensive body of work where so many variegated topics have been used storywise . . . it just never has.
Scott Connor: the Kaluta/Ellison collaboration on "The Shadow" never got very far. I wrote several opening scenes, Mike did a few rough pencils ON those scenes, and then, well, the publisher for which it was intended exposed the Face of the Beast, I returned the small advance I'd received, and it all went away. It was to be titled "Dragon Shadows" and I had a nice, twisty Maxwell Grant-y sort of terror-suspense-fantasy-adventure plot worked out. But . . . it never happened. One of those seeds aborted before fruition.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Well for what it is worth I was in the US Navy from 1975-1989. Went in right after Vietnam ended and got out right before the Gulf War started! Bummer I missed all the fun but I did get to see a lot of the Arabian Sea when Iran was holding our American
Embassy staff hostage. Oh well i did survive three years in Philly on the USS Estocin
Can anyone tell me if Mr. Ellison has ever written anything about multiple sclerosis please?
Whether 'tis nobler in the funny bone to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous Robins,
Or to take arms against a sea of turkeys,
And by avoiding end them? To pay; to yawn;
No more; and by a yawn to say we end
The hackneyed and the thousand screenwriting horrors
That "Jakob" and "Bicentennial" is heir to.
Oh hell I forgot...someone mentioned The Shadow a few posts back. Harlan, whatever happened to the Shadow project that you and Mike Kaluta were collaborating on some odd years back? Kaluta is definitely my favorite Shadow-related artist (and ain't none too shabby otherwise,either). A certain Mr. Steranko had a good handle on his profile as well.
A few comments and random musings....
Robin Williams: For my money, The Fisher King was one of his most enjoyable performances. And rarely has Terry Gilliam steered me wrong. Good Will Hunting was excellent all around. What Dreams May Come I found a bit predictable, but some goregous art direction.
Gaiman: Haven't read American Gods yet. But if his track record holds, it'll be good. Almost guaranteed. He and Harlan always have me rushing out when their new works appear.
Comedians: What about Denis Leary? Anything new from him in recent eons? Bill Hicks is another comedian I'm looking forward to "discovering". Alas, a bit late.
Incognita, Inc.: Not only was this a wonderful story, but accompanied by a very nice illustration in its Realms of Fantasy incarnation. Patrick Arrasmith has quite a way with lines. New works by him in Spectrum are always nice pieces of eye candy.
Barney...if you're out there, I still have some material to photocopy for your reference if it is still needed/wanted. Nice meeting you at HeroesCon a couple of years or so.
Harlan/Susan: A true pleasue meeting you fine folks at HeroesCon in Charlotte as well. Too bad the barbecue sucked. I hated to break the news to you about Stephen King's accident at the time, but I thought you'd like to know. And whatever happened to the missing/stolen(?) books? Were they ever recovered?
Edward,
I'm not sure whether you've come to praise Williams in "Shakes the Clown," or to bury him. Thanks for the correction, though.
Grand Poobah Ellison,
Thanks for the apology. I'm sure we'll have a fine working relationship. Care to buy me a chablis?
Regards,
Pvt. Finn
Wow, I'm amazed at the transformation here in 24 hours. Who walks to the drumhead now? Alejendro may just survive the gauntlet by throwing captivating Perez-Reverte novels toward the sergeant, or commander-in-chief, or general, or -- well, the notable officer's upward mobility has shot up in a matter of hours, hasn't it?
Robin Williams: The movie, by the way, was "Shakes the Clown," not "Chuckles the Clown." Hate to be a spoil-sport, Joseph, but I'd hate to see Williams' performance in that film mishmashed with the odious likes of "Bride of Chucky." However, despite the man's underrated talent, particularly as a dramatic actor, I'll be the first to admit that his last several films have been the artistic equivalent of an endless jaunt to the outhouse.
"The Prisoner": I fear the worst for the movie. Simon West also gave us the unpardonable "General's Daughter." Not a curriculum vitae to be proud of. I suspect that Rover, the white balloon of authority, will enter the frame to the terrible sounds of a Limp Bizkit track. Why must they continually remake the great stuff of the past? "Planet of the Apes" falls into this category as well. The minute I saw the trailer with the line "Can't we all just get along?" I cringed as kinetically as a quadruple-jointed acrobat (hypothetically, that would be two bones connected in four dimensions and moving angrily across the fabric of the universe).
Rob: Never underestimate orangutans with razors.
RE: Robin Williams. Not that he needs defending from someone like me -the man is brilliant, no question. Whether he may, or may not, have made some poor choices in some of his work is up for discussion (as long as you take into account that comedy is one of the most difficult artforms in existence, which can be tampered, altered, and thuroughly screwed by people who have no clue). His talent and ability are awesome.
As a side note: having survived boot camp on Parris Island I can say that Full Metal Jacket is the closest I've seen to a honest depiction.
Anybody got a problem with that?! Nano! Nano!
Tammy
Sir, Thank you Sir!
Cute Conduct? Oy.
L.
Amen, Cpl. Lynn. For meritorious service in aid of the plangent dithyramb, we bestow herewith this Ribbon of Cute Conduct...
Oooo, ouch, that hadda hurt. (Sorry, Leaky.)
Attested this day,
Commander in Chief and Really Awesome Guy, 6-star General HE Imbecile, DDS, Ph.D., LoC, AMORC.
As you were!
I meant, of course, Rob; not Pvt. Finn.
Which does not mean you are off the hook, Finn.
I'm watchin' you, boy.
Stop that jackass snickerin', Pvt. Rob. Go clean the grease trap at the Mess Hall. Now! On the double, you pimple on Gawd's purple ass! Move it!!
Thou SHALT NOT click "Submit" until thy lowly missive hath been checked, double-checked, proof-read, sanctioned and blessed, lest thou suffer the Flames of His Eternal Disapprobation.
Thou SHALT NOT click "Submit" unless thy paltry cerebrum hath been sufficiently infused with caffeine, thy mind hath been scoured of any furry banana references, and thy spirit hath been rendered pure and bears the holy mark: "Approved By Strunk & White," lest thou perish in the Crimson Bloodbath of His Sublime Editorial Expertise.
Thou SHALT NOT click "Submit" unless thy Sense of Humor hath surpassed the tribulations of The Dennis Miller Show with a minimum of culture shock, thy Backbone hath been certified by United Steel Workers of America, and thy Mental Capacity has been registered, if not as a Deadly Weapon, then at least as a possible Instrument of Grievous Bodily Harm.
Your penance, ten "Hail Roget's", ten "Our Webster's" and one act of contrition. We suggest rooting for the Tribe for a season, but only you can decide how contrite you *actually* feel. Go forth and sin no more.
{This has been an emergency broadcast from the Tongue-Planted-Firmly-In-Cheek Production Company. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Message Boards, already in progress}
For those of you blessed enough never to have endured the nightmare of military service (except for those many of you who were sent to "scared straight" boot camps for your social infelicitiies), I recommend the best two films that show it like it is: THE D.I. starring Jack Webb and FULL METAL JACKET adapted from the novel THE SHORT-TIMERS by one of my Clarion students, Gustav Hasford. THE D.I. was based on a television script by (if I remember all the way back to the late '50s) Robert Alan Arthur or Reginald Rose or maybe even Serling (not really likely) that was done on Philco Playhouse or Playhouse 90 or one of the other prestigious live-drama series that abounded in those halcyon days before we slipped and slid into Sitcom Hell; and the original was titled "The Death of a Sand-Flea." Webb, who was not by ANY competent critic's stretch of terminology, a particularly accomplished thespian, produced and starred in three movies that I remember with affection: THE D.I., in which he is a Marine drill instructor at Parris Island, as ramrod intimidating as any I had in Ranger basic at Fort Benning (with the exception of Bedzyk, who was out to get me, and whose back I wound up breaking, literally, but that's a story for another time}; -30- which was a newspaper drama co-starring William Conrad at his dramatic and vocal peak; and PETE KELLY'S BLUES, which is one of my top ten favorite films of all time, and if you've never seen it, o woe is you! Webb was stiff and mannered, in film and on teevee, but he turned those robotic movements and stony monotoned readings into iconographic tropes for all who came after him, tried to emulate his success, or tried to parody him . . . even as hilariously as Stan Freberg. And so, for my sins, I must confess that I rather came to admire and enjoy Webb in all his manifestations . . . but as Pete Kelly, the Kansas City jazzman of the Prohibition Era, he is stellar in my pantheon of memory.
Which is not to say, you crawling creeping clandestine cockroaches, that your mewling puking kneebent and noxious nattering of apologia and babyshit whimpering will save you from double latrine duty---here're your toothbrushes for cleaning the gaboons and piss-pots---and a menu all month of nothing but lima beans and shit-onna-shingle. So stop that crying, Finn, you darlin' li'l momma's boy. We GOT yo momma, sonny! An' we got YOUR ass, an' it is purely grass in this man's outfit, you pale little sadsack dolorous fartbreath! You hear me, boy?!!?
Fatso's waiting for you in the stockade. Heh heh
Heh.
Harlan,
Hey! HEY! HEYYYYYYY!
Think of my last post as my first shot at Dadaist Expressionism. Neo-prose.
That all said and done: I AM aware of the improper English in “very unique” and, thank you, no, I’d rather not go back and look at that embarrassing post. You effectively pushed my face into that pile of dog shit on the lawn out yonder, and...well...that SHOULD suffice. I woke up this a.m. I crawled out of bed to the computer as a way to shake myself from the slumber. A bleary-eyed, drooling, brain-dead animal, I made my responses in a comatose state and apparently didn’t do a terrific job concealing it. Furthermore AND moreover, I was typing frenetically because, frankly, I woke up late. I was supposed to be up an hour earlier. Had no time to think about what I’d just said or look at what I’d just typed. You KNOW my control of language is generally better, so gimme a GRAIN of credit. Please Sgt. Ellison?
Now, thoroughly humbled, chained, dragging the Stone of Shame, ready to commit hara-kiri, I give you my heartfelt reassurance that I will watch my typing and read what I’ve posted before I done posted it. This wasn’t the first time I'd crashed and burned. But it WAS the most mortifying. Hey! In ONE post I misspelled my own name!
We’ll just regard this little incident as...EXCEPTIONALLY unique.
Lobotomized Forever,
Rob
Harlan was the inspiration for the PFC in this scene from the play "We Bombed in New Haven," when the DI is going through roll call and says the guy's name several times and the grunt just stands there. Totally furious, the DI gets in the soldier's face and bellows:
"I'm standing over hear yellin' your name, boy, are you fuckin' deaf??"
To which he replies, "I'm standing right here, you fuckin' blind?"
From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli....
Can you believe I was actually rejected by the Naval ROTC for college?
Sword! Marine sword! Not Blade! Or whatever pointy thing they use in those arrogant marches of theirs. There, that should do it.
Now you can throw my body to a deep dark pit where starving dogs shall make mince meat of of my body…
How about uniquely unique?
(And Alejandro runs, like the coward that he is, trying to avoid Ellison's long arm of the law to no avail. He now faces court martial for the egregious crime of linguistic slaughter. The fact that English is his scond language will not save him from capital punishment this time around. He cries like a baby as Commander Ellison extends his marine blade and yells: "Prepare! Aim! Fire!")
And tuck in your shirt, Finn. And stop slouching. And there's enough scum'n'filth'n'country sod in the barrel of this weapon to raise potatos, Missy! Drop and give me fourteen hundred!
Make that fifteen hundred, and wipe that condescending sneer off your putrid civilian face, trooper! You're in Webderland now, not mommy's lvin' arms, you maggot! DO YOU HEAR ME?!?
And tuck in your shirt, Finn. And stop slouching. And there's enough scum'n'filth'n'country sod in he barrel of this weapon to raise potatos, Missy! Drop and give me fourteen hundred!
And that goes for you, too, Gunther.
SIR YES SIR!
David Loftus:
If you have perused the material sufficiently to address any (possible)(clarifying) consideration of a revision to the initial paragraph(s) of the analysis, please return the loaned data at your earliest convenience.
Kevin McElroy:
Refering to our interchange of a week or more ago, we are interested in knowing if you received the EDGEWORKS volume we sent to replace the one you gave away. It hasn't resurfaced yet in our post, but we also haven't heard from you if it arrived, presumably transshipped from your recently-vacated Florida address. Please advise. (We are loath to send out your copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, pursuant to the preceding loose end.)
Rob:
Nothing can be "very" unique. (See your preceding post, first line.) As we keep advising those of you who type so fast--and either rely on illiterate Spellcheckers, the handmaidens of slovenly spealling & grammar, or seldom go back to proofread your copy before sending--who type so fast that RUE MORGUE comes up as RUE MORQUE, who was an alien regularly boinking Mindy, speaking of my friend Robin about whom youse better watch yer mouth Frank Church--what we keep trying to thump into your heads is that UNIQUE be what am called an "absolute" or "ultimate" word. It is the last, the final, destination of that word, no stations beyond it. Finis. End. Pinnacle. Sans modifiers. Verboten territory for additional words y'all misguidedly think strengthen what is, how shall I put this, THE STRONGEST LINK! And so, unique cannot be "really" unique, or "abslutely" unique or even "very" unique (and certainly, he said, cringing, it cannot be--in ValleyGirlspeak--"rillee" unique). It can only be a unique situation, a unique personality, or in terms of your posting, a unique angle on the Rue Mork question.
Now if I have to come in here and tell you this again, you kids are not going to the movie this weekend. Am I clear on this?
Am I CLEAR?
I can't H E A R you!!!!!
Charmingly, MSgt. Harlan Ellison, US 51403352
Kevin -
unfortunately, rumor has it that the director for THE PRISONER will be the same person who directed TOMB RAIDER, which was (in a word) shit.
As for Robin Williams, he needs a genius like Terry Gilliam to make him bearable for me.
And as for MacGoohan's The Prisoner, there was another extremely intelligent series like it on the air, if only for a very short time: NOWHERE MAN, which was thought-provoking and mind-blowing, which is of course why it was cancelled after the first season and never shown again. Grf.
Rob,
Since we're discussing dream projects for Marvel movies, here's mine:
Cloak and Dagger.
C'mon, who wouldn't want to see that made into a movie? Alternatively, how about the return of "Damage Control?" That would be a hell of a lot of fun.
Regards,
Joseph
To: John Q. Adams
F.Y.I.: Your copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS was mailed yesterday.
Thank you.--Susan
I'll freely admit that one of my favorite Williams roles (and I'm with Phillip that Williams is horribly underestimated as an actor) is a small appearance in the otherwise not-so-great movie "Chuckles the Clown." Williams shows up as a mime school instructor who runs it like an insane drill sergeant. Hard to explain, but the scene is just brilliant.
Besides that, I love two great scenes in "Good Will Hunting": the one where he tells the story of meeting his wife, and the one where he tells Will off (after Will has insulted his deceased wife), so elegantly and with great dignity. As teacher/counselor roles go, I put that up with John Housemen in "Paper Chase" and Laurence Fishburne in "Higher Learning." Just exquisite.
Frank,
That is a very unique angle you took there on Rue Morque and if I re-read the story I'll walk in with that consideration. Last night I was coincidentally grumbling about animal abuse when I read something Steve McQueen had done in his early days: according to a director he'd worked with, he'd placed a tin can on his dog's head to practice shooting his gun; he killed the dog. It was an accident...but give me a break. When I was a teenager I once attacked someone for abusing a dog, throwing him to the ground. You don't mess with an animal when I'm around...I'll absolutely see blood. (Incidentally, this is the annoying thing about reading someone's second hand account; who knows what was happening to McQueen back then, for instance. He wasn't a happy person in that period. AND the guy relating the account could be full of shit, too. It's just the issue of animal abuse that concerns me).
Re: Robin Williams. I think he's EXTREMELY talented, and frankly, overall, I'll take him to Jim Carrey any time - mostly because, as I expressed earlier, I admire him more as an actor than a comic. My main gripe when he does the comedy is the monotonous scizophrenia...I always feel like saying, "get on with what you were talking about!" If he'll get away from the diabetic stuff - return to good material like 'World According to Garp', which he was excellent in, I'd jump out the door to see his flicks again.
Michael,
I mentioned Sleator's House of Stairs earlier. Extremely chilling.
Matt,
I am a purist when it comes to 'The Prisoner'. It is one of the greatest tv series in the history of mankind. No tv show ever blended Kafka with sf and manipulated heavy symbolism the way McGoohan did (certainly not on the tube). And it was already virtually remade as a movie: it was called The Truman Show.
Kevin,
Re: Spider-Man and Raimi. I hope your're right. In the tradition of Groucho, Bugs Bunny and Hawkeye Pierce in MASH Spidey was a thron in the posterior to everyone he grappled with, including Jameson. Vast room for writing great dialogue. I'm just not as confident as you are we'll see that fully realized. We'll see.
Another Marvel character I sometimes imagined being adapted is the vengeful, antagonistic, mercurial Sub-Mariner (either at odds or teamed up with the Fantastic Four half the time, grappling with The Thing - who, because of the brilliant graphic design and New York City "persuasion", was probably my perennial favorite Marvel character, incidentally). The possiblities are mighty interesting.
Peter,
No, Woo won't be doing Daredevil. It's just speculation on how great a match it would be.
I think of Robin Williams first and foremost as an actor, and one of the best in the U.S., easily in the same league as Kevin Spacey, Robert DeNiro and Samuel L. Jackson. If Robin Williams could sit still in an interview for five minutes, and make a habit of it, he'd probably get more dramatic roles which would allow him to showcase a wider range of his acting talents. Most people don't know how good he is because he just isn't offered the roles, and whenever people see him on tv or in interviews, he's a little bit hyper to say the least, and most people therefore naturally think of him as a funny guy, manic but not dramatic. He's played dramatic roles in somewhat obscure films that probably didn't make any money, but he derserves more. I remember he played a small part in the film DEAD AGAIN; he was in it for about 60 seconds, but it was the best 60 seconds of the whole movie.
Yeah! No more mind-numbing movies like, oh, DEAD POET'S SOCIETY or THE FISHER KING or AWAKENINGS or GOOD WILL HUNTING!
Geez, if only I could be so *mediocre*.
{/sarcasm}
L.
Actually, "Rue Morgue" is the first instance of an "animal rights" type of vibe in a story. The ape is trained to kill, and I found it sad when he was killed, even though he did do some terrible things. But, mankind is the real monster maker. The things that go bump in the night have human hands.
Aronofsky doing Batman scares me. That's all we need, another great director going corporate.
I try to steer clear of Robin Williams films, because I have an accute fear of catching diabetes. Patch Adams should of been burned than pissed on. Teehee.
Actually, comic writer Joe Queenan makes the case that Williams is a very overrated comedian. I seem to agree. I mean compare Williams to the greats like Groucho Marx, and people like Carlin and the late Lenny Bruce. Williams aint in the same area code. And when it comes to improvization, I will pick someone like Jim Carey any day. Williams also pre writes a lot of his material. The idea that all of his act is improv is absurd. But I will say Williams does seem like a cool guy, and he is friends with Ellison, so at least he is smart. Just one hint to Robin: No more mind numbing movies man!! Thanks.
While the prospect of a Daredevil movie has been kicking around for a while (especially since the large rise in popularity when Kevin Smith was writing the stories) I don't think we'll be seeing John Woo direct it. Four reasons. 1)Teenage 2)Mutant 3)Ninja 4)Turtles. Woo wants to direct a competely CG turtles movie, distinct from the cartoon of the late 80s and the Teenage Muppet Ninja Turtles movies of the early nineties, (remember Vanilla Ice? ***shudder***) allegedly going back to the darker tone of the comics for inspiration.
---Peter
Michael,
I don't think the names in American Gods were meant to be tricks - I think it was right out there in the open. Anybody wandering by could figure it out, but the gods are secure in that nobody is going to bother to figure it out. I mean, who's going to look for gods in Cairo, Illinois?
*SPOILER*
The one I couldn't figure out is the guy no one can remember. Any idea?
Regards,
Joseph
Re: Bellairs. Thanks for mentioning him; it's been a while since I read his books about...hmm, what was the kid's name...Johnny? And the Professor. Creepy and great, all of them. Dahl, 'nuff said...except I will add that the scene in his nonfiction childhood memoir "Boy" where his adenoids are removed has stayed with me for a long, long time...
Re: Ferre and Gourevitch: They've both just come out with new books (published by FSG, which is how I know): "Flight of the Swan" and "A Cold Case" respectively. Keep an eye out, not sure if they've been released yet.
I am extremely curious--has anyone read the works of the young adult author William Sleator? I devoured his books when I was eleven or so and forgot about them entirely until recently. Probably some of the weirdest, most intense sort-of-SF I've ever read, especially at that age. Only titles I can remember offhand are "The Green Futures of Tycho" and "House of Stairs," but there are more...I thought they were absolutely brilliant and often chilling.
(long post...almost done)
(SPOILERS to follow...AMERICAN GODS)
Okay...I suspect many of you will not take my side in this, but did anyone else think AMERICAN GODS was somewhat lacking, as a whole? Compared to what I know Gaiman can do through comics and short stories, the novel did not really compare. There were, of course, a few times when I could point and realize "that's the Gaiman I know and love, etc." (I thought the non plot-central immigrant tales are great short stories in their own right). At first I thought I was missing out on some of the book's surprises b/c of my knowledge of Gaiman's work and of mythology in general. Wednesday = "Wotan's Day" (Wotan, Votan, Odin [just as Thor's Day, Frigg's Day, etc., btw]). Though I did give myself a pat on the back for figuring out Mr Nancy as Anansi (I had seen it as Anasazi, though...).
But, I thought, a novel shouldn't rely on name-tricks like that anyway. I don't know. It all just seemed a little bit flat to me. Any opinions?
Aronofsky doing "Batman, Year One" seems a good fit to me as does Raimi for the Spiderman project. Raimi uses humor very well and may succeed in bringing out the smart-ass in Spidey that endeared me to the character in the first place.
Speaking of directors, Robert Redford had picked up the rights to that splendid Jack Finney novel, "Time and Again." It seems, however, that he put it on the back burner to direct "The Legend of Bagger Vance" instead. "Time and Again" was a good read, and with the proper script, would be a fine film.
As for the "Prisoner" film.....I dunno. Enjoying the original series as much as I did, I'd be dissecting the film instead of trying to enjoy it. Anything is possible with a good director, cast, and script. Hopefully, my skepticism will dissipate as the project nears completion.
A John Woo Daredevil film.....my pulse rate quickens at the very idea.
Regards,
K.
Lynn: What Dreams May Come is one of my favorite books. I originally came across it in 1988 and fell in love with it. I enjoyed it so much that I was actually a little disappointed in the movie. It was entertaining and visually stunning but I prefer the book. Actually, if you have the DVD of the movie watch the alternate ending. It's closer to what the book had in mind. And by all means go out and pick up as much of Matheson as you can. He's a great writer and his son, Richard Christian Matheson, writes some of the best short short stories I've ever read. He packs a great wallop into 2 - 3 pages.
Alex:
REQUIEM FOR A DREAM is the most monstrous movie I've seen. I'm not usually affected emotionally by movies (pathos like in the abysmal PEARL HARBOR makes me cringe, but that's it), but REQUIEM made me tighten up and sweat when it entered its final phase, and I still cried at the end during the third viewing.
Add to that the superb soundtrack (Clint Mansell and the Kronos Quartet) and you have a movie that'll stay with you for a long time. In fact, I think this should be shown to everyone in high school, just so they know what messing with drugs is about.
Alex,
You mentioned wanting to see "The Green Lantern" on the big screen. Coincidently, Christopher McQuarrie ("The Usual Suspects") will be writing a screenplay based on it, after finishing his current project -- writing "The Prisoner"...
Let's hope for the best!
One small snag - Simon West is set to direct "The Prisoner." You may remember him from such movies as "Con Air" and "Tomb Raider"
Be seeing you,
Matt
Alex,
I actually feel like taking that wet towel and snapping you both with it in the posterior like they used to in the college dorms. 'What Dreams May Come' kept you wondering what was coming next??? Jeezus, when MY girlfriend and I saw it in the theater we both rolled our eyes - we felt like we'd written the script before walking in and...ah, fergit it.
I liked the visuals a lot and I won't say anymore.
Now that John Woo/Daredevil idea had very vivid images swirling in my head. I really got into that character in the 80's when Frank Miller was doing the book. That's the best suggestion for a Marvel director I've seen thus far. Your right on with the script though. I'd want a three-dimensional, heavily weighed character, not the usual one-dimensional stuff expected in comic book adaptations (the reason Marvel misses the mark in TV and film so often).
I'm a bit wary about Raimi handling Spider-Man, but there are many choices out there who'd do far worse. I AM glad he took it from Cameron, whose concepts I felt were drifting too far from the source. I think my biggest problem is simply that I know how I would do it right down to every grueling, frivolous, trifling detail - the stories, the actors, the general look, the photography, the editing style, pov, the music - EVERYTHING.
Funny bit of serendipity: The ladylove and I just shared a late-night viewing of WHAT DREAMS MAY COME.
GREAT flick; a good throat-lumper, and one that kept us both guessing. Surprisingly, it's actually from a Matheson story I HAVEN'T read. Kelly says: "Now I feel ooky. I feel strangely depressed and yet strangely uplifted at the same time." Me, I liked it a LOT--but being the twisted tunnel-visioner that I am, would have enjoyed it as much even had it ended with the Robin Williams character going back inside to be with his wife, no matter how hopeless it may have seemed. That would have been something of a BRAZIL--unhappy happy ending, but workable. And the happy ending was good as well, because it grew organically from the rest of the movie.
My instant reaction: "THIS didn't win, and TITANIC did?!?"
Pursuant to what others have said, I also loved PI and THEY LIVE and BIG TROUBLE ...
But horror movies have never really scared me. Oh; THE SHININGF did my nine-year-old head in, and IN THE MOUTH OF MADNESS was a lovely mindschtupping fearfest, but those are the only two.
But horror flicks? Nah. Films of REAL terrors, like BOYS DON'T CRY or even LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL are far more likely to put a scare into me.
Books are more apt to scare me and leave me leery of the world outside ...
... and I'll tell you a secret I've only told one other, the aforementioned ladylove:
Darkened windows still scare me. It's a holdover from childish terrors, sure, but it still holds some small amount of fear over me, even though I'm too dumb to be scared of anything else in life save rejection. A darkened room holds no fear for me, nor does a pitch-black outdoors, but put a clear pane between that which is in and that which is out, and the monsters in my mind will breed right outside of it. Certain books play on this fear, too: I recall that I kept the shades down for a while after reading Fritz Leiber's OUR LADY OF DARKNESS ...
On Darren Aronofsky: Loved PI; didn't yet see REQUIEM FOR A DREAM--but I expect his (Frank Miller-co-scripted; woohoo!) Bats to be great. Still, I'd have liked to have seen him take on his preferred Batman film, that being DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, but ...
Hay! With Raimi on SPIDER-MAN, Robert Rodriguez on MADMAN, Aronofsky on BATMAN, and Ang Lee to helm the Hulk movie, maybe we'll gain some respectability?
Riiiight.
Still, a John Woo DAREDEVIL or a Vincent Ward SILVER SURFER or a Richard Attenborough BERLIN or a Wachowski Bros. GREEN LANTERN would be nice, eh?*
* With, of course, the excellent scripts that would be necessary ...
Ed,
To be honest with you there's a lot of material of Poe I'd go back to before "Rue Morgue" (the orangutan with the razor just never had any impact on me in ANY way). Over a period of time I read almost everything of his, including that one. I did enjoy Dupin, the model Doyle would use later for HIS creation (combined with a professor of his), and the fascinating ironic schizophrenic tapestry Poe had sewn in all his work, streched between ill-fated madness and deductive science. It'll depend on my whims.
As for my reference to Lorre in that film segment, I was alluding to Lorre not Poe. I doubt any filmed version of his stories ever did his work justice, in large part because most of his work just isn't filmable. It's too subjective. Most of it isn't really stories so much as ruminations and personal exploration. So there's no point in even trying to compare a filmmaker's take on it. I was strictly talking about that comical out take on its own terms. And on its own terms it really was funny. It was pure Lorre.
Rob~ Thank you for not bagging on "What Dreams May Come" although I can understand why some people thought it too sickly sweet. My personal perspective comes from having to make the decision to divorce someone I thought I loved more than life just to save my sanity. That should clue you in a bit more as to why the film affected me so powerfully.
Amy~ Never saw the sequel to Paradise Lost, although I understand it corroborated my own suspicions as to the freakiest (and still my personal number one suspect) member of the entire twisted cast. Check out www.wm3.org if you're interested in the case.
And I'm off to dreamland, presently.
L.
Aronofsky's pegged to do Batman: Year One? Hell, I'm interested to see the only Batman story with out a Batman.
First off, I'm going to have to check out Harlan's Locus piece. Sounds like another gleeful stick of dynamite going off in the dead of night.
Contort: No worries. I was pleased to be compared with the British detective there for a moment. :)
"The Shining": This film scared the shit out of me when I first saw it. Still does. But for very different reasons. Nicholson's Jack Torrance had many of the mannerisms that my natural father had. Too personal to get into, but that Kubrick could ape the psychological behavior of an abusive man so astutely is a remarkable testament to his vision.
Rob: What's particularly interesting is that "They Live" was one of the first films to be up front about the very real possibility that complacent yuppies are from somewhere outside Andromeda.
"Being There": Keep in mind that the film was based on a Jerzy Kosinski novel (or, as was later discovered, the Jerzy Kosinski Committee). What's rather ironic about the novel/movie is that the Village Voice later discovered that there was a certain element of truth to the premise.
"Imbecile": Provided it's not another "Breakfast of Champions" remark or a reference to the Queen song, or, even more diabolically, the wholly ridiculous childhood taunt of "Eddie Spaghetti," I don't mind.
Aronofsky: He's two for two in my book and set up to (rather appropriately) helm "Batman: Year One." His films are certainly admirably flashy, but his current approach is to essentially bang the audience over the head with horrific imagery, forcing them into an effective miasmic state. However, he'd be an even more consummate director if he could somehow commingle his visual style with that pivotal human element that's just on the peripheral boundaries of both "Pi" and "Requiem."
Phillip: Even more astonishingly than the Disney attachment was the fact that the movie was G-rated. Who would have thought?
Amy: You're truly an evil person. :) The sound in any Lynch film is particularly terrifying. Get thee to a Dolby Digital setup, close thy eyes and be thoroughly frightened by Lynch's soundscapes.
Rob: If you're going to jump back into Poe, I recommend the Dupin stories ("The Murders in the Rue Morgue" being the most notable example), the basis for any detective story that has come since from any pen. Peter Lorre is certainly an interesting association, but even he can't do justice to the creepy atmosphere of the crazed E.A. Speaking of which, am I the only one who ever thought that Emily Dickinson and Edgar Allan Poe would have made a fantastically perfect couple? Provided that Emily could handle Edgar's drinking problems, the two would be a match made in weirdness.
Amy,
I've gotta get back to Poe, it's been maybe ten years since my last revisit. All I know is "Cask of Amontillado" with Peter Lorre was damn funny.
I'm not into computer games, I spent enough time on Doom in the past (which did a great job gratifying my psychotic animal instincts) n' finally outgrowed it, but, frankly, that Poe outing does sound rather, shall way say, kewl.
Lynn,
I've experienced plenty of the entropy but not as much serendipity as I could use.
Re: Matheson. I am pretty much a perennial fan of his but that one didn't cut it for me at all. I believe that was a novel of his (as opposed to a short story) and he took it very seriously. I'm afraid my pov has a bit in common with that guy you broke up with. And as talented as Robin Williams is (I do admire him much more as a straight actor than as a comic, incidentally) he has gone overboard with the Nausea Factory and its mass production of predictable honey-sweet drivel. But, listen, since the film touched on something important to you I'm not going to tear it down. I know a number of films, books and even an occasional bit on the tube that did that for me too.
Harlan,
Since Kevin brought up radio, I've wanted to bring up for some time the subject of the sad passing of that totally superb, blessin' of a show you co-produced on NPR, the SF hour, that held our ears Friday nights. I wish you could get something like that going again - bringing back The Shadow n' all them transients of the 30's n'40's. (I never heard the ones Orson Welles had done). And I miss the INTERVIEWS so much. You must have had an ECSTATIC time doing that program. It beat the hell out of TV Land, huh?
Edward: I do agree that Eraserhead's soundtrack is fabulous. We play selections from the CD as part of our big Halloween haunt. Scaring kiddies is just plain fun. I won't defend John Waters--I am NOT saying he's a talented filmmaker, just that his later works are fun for me. He is so sharp and witty in person that it's hard for me NOT to like him.
Rob: Sorry, I brought up TRILOGY of Terror. Extremely cheesy made-for-tv movie. But "Cask of Amontillado" is a great story in any form, including the version played out in the computer game "The Dark Eye." The gameplay is sort of nonexistent, but it's fun to hop from Poe story to Poe story--and the stop-motion style animation is beautiful. You view each story through a character's eyes, and the only trick is to hop out of a doomed character into a surviving one in time. Not difficult if you've read Poe.
Lynn: regarding Jonesy...all it takes to make SOME cats scream like that is annual vaccinations...that's one thing I don't miss about being a vet tech! Oh, and I'm with you on Paradise Lost. Did you see the followup?
amy (enjoying the exquisite sin of central air conditioning once again)
Dennis~ Seems I'm discovering a secret influence in this Matheson guy. I'm currently working my way through "California Sorcery" and discover that Matheson is also credited with the story behind Robin Williams' "What Dreams May Come," a film that I can honestly say touched me in ways that words can not explain. I actually broke up with a guy because he "didn't get it".
Serendipity and Entropy are the same creature, just on different days of the month,
L.
PS My apologies if this is a double post. Browser froze mid-click.
Lynn: If you liked the episode "The Button" try and get your hands on the original short story by Richard Matheson. In my opiniont, he ending of the story has the ending of the episode beat cold.
Speaking of The New Twilight Zone, has anyone heard whether there are any plans to release episodes on video? I'd like to get the episodes in their original form, not the sliced and diced for syndication version. I used to have the first several episodes on tape but I watched them until the tape broke. I'd love to get my hands on "Paladin of the Lost Hour" or "A Message from Charity". Well, actually I'd like to see almost every episode again.
People. Sorry. Innocent teehee.
I also saw an essay where Harlan's favorite film critic, John Simon blamed Steven King for the downfall of poeple reading serious books. Actually I'd rather have someone reading king than gunking their minds on a video game or watching Melrose Place on the Telly.
Chris,
The Radio Spirits compilations don't stop with the sci fi collection. there is a Mystery compilation featuring episodes of Quiet Please, Suspense, Inner Sanctum, Escape, and The Mysterious Traveler. They have a Detective compilation with all the Hard Boiled style P.I. shows (Jack Webb in Pat Novak for Hire is worth a listen) and the police procedurals.
By the way all the nifty liner note booklets in those compilations were penned by Anthony Tollin. Tollin co-wrote "The Shadow Scrapbook" with the late Walter B. Gibson and has worked for DC Comics (He did the colors for the Howard Chaykin "Shadow" limited series. He is also quite an authority on Radio's Golden Age.
HARLAN - While I'm on the subject of radio, did you ever complete the story you had planned based upon the Quiet,Please episode "Five Miles Down?" If you did,I missed it and require further enlightenment.
Regards,
K.
There's a nice editorial by Scott Edelman about HE and why he is essential at: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/current/editorial.html
Erm...Frank?
"Big Trouble in Little China" is not a rip-off of Indy, any more than Jackie Chan's "Armor of God" is a rip-off of Bruce Lee's "Enter the Dragon." They take similiar basic ideas and spin vastly different takes on the genre.
Anyway, isn't "The Golden Child" more of a rip off? Just kidding, just kidding...
Regards,
Joseph
Susan & Harlan~ The paperback arrived safe and sound. Thank you so much for the inscription. I think I pulled something laughing. Now I just can't wait to show my mother!
::giggling with maniacal glee::
L.
Eudora Welty died?
Crap.
Now I'm going to have to go home and put on the lovely Mary Chapin Carpenter song "When Halley Came to Jackson," which is about Eudora Welty and Halley's comet in the skies of Jackson, Mississippi as Eudora was an infant.
God speed, Madame Welty.
Eudora Welty, rest in peace lovely lady-you were a great storyteller. Long may people read you & pass your books on to others.
Spooky stuff huh? I too found Alien terrifying. Some stories that gave me chicken skin were "The Boogeyman" by Stephen King(read late at night in a quiet house w/ my room's closet door open a crack..impt. plot pt.), "The Night Before Christmas", by Robert Bloch, "The Human Chair" by Edogawa Rampo. Small kid time nightmares brought on by Star Trek episode "Devil in the Dark".
Most disturbing for me are stories of genocide- "Forgotten Fire" about the Armenian genocide was one of the most unsettling things I've ever read, along with Gourevitch's "We Wish To Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed with Our Families".
They linger in the mind, which is probably a good thing.
Rob-William Sleator is still writing disturbing, scary SF.
Amy-that doll in "Trilogy of Terror" gave me the creeps for days.
Recommened reading-the Grahams- Graham Joyce & Graham Green.
I agree with you on this one. PI was fantastic. A unique film. One of the best I've seen in the past few years. The same director also made A REQUIEM FOR A DREAM most recently (I think it was the same guy). In both of these films, I was completely drawn into the world they presented. I saw the edited "Blockbuster" version of REQUIEM, and I was haunted by that film for days. That was real horror. Disturbing but powerful. If that was the edited version, I don't want to think about uncut version. Intelligent reviews for both can be found at the following site:
http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/master.html
I see people mentioning David Lynch, but no one has mentioned THE STRAIGHT STORY. It was worth the price of admission just to see the first words on the screen: "Walt Disney Pictures presents... A David Lynch Film." That was the most surreal moment of the movie. I believe Lynch's wife wrote the screenplay for it. I loved it, but it's in no way a typical David Lynch film.
John Waters: I can never understand why he is such a wonderful wit on talk shows or the written essay but in movies we have to turn down the dimwit switch just to tune him out.
Big Trouble In Little China: Can anyone say Indiana Jones rip off??
Poe: I was shocked to learn literary critic, Harold Bloom calls Poe an "atrocious writer". Maybe elitism aint all it's cracked up to be.. Teehee.
Another one for the thrillers:
Aronofsky's Pi
Black and white neurosis, hold the mayo.
L.
Where to begin?
My beloved took me to Comic-Con in San Diego this past Saturday, and my brain is still humming. I was harboring the misconception that it was all about comic books, which would have been fun, but not enough to hold my attention for four days. We only went down for the day on Saturday. Suffice it to say I came home with a signed Brom poster, and the most adorable plush Cthulhu doll. He sits atop my monitor, lording over the other evil beanies. The company also is going to be making the bunny from Holy Grail ("big, NASTY teeth") and the ever-popular Ex-Parrot. Next year, we'll make plans to stay for the Masquerade.
Scary stuff: Mind Hunter, John E. Douglas (Non-fiction) Proof positive that truth is stranger (and more terrifying) than fiction. John Douglas is one of the founders of the Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico, FBI Academy. He pioneered the science/art of psychological profiling.
Films: Paradise Lost - The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills (again, non-fiction) As terrifying for its documentation of the crime as it is for the revealing portrait of the justice system at its finest, and I say that with the utmost sarcasm.
Oh, you wanted fiction? Deathbird Stories. Roald Dahl. Clive Barker's Imajica, Weave World, The Great and Secret Show. His imagery eats holes in my imagination, festering pockets of nightmare stuff known to assert itself at the most inadvertent times. Dan Simmon's Hugo Award-winning Hyperion.
Movies? I'll have to agree with HE on this one. Alien scared the bejeezus outta me. Do you *know* just what it takes to make a cat scream like that?! ::shudder::
And my own introduction to the many faceted mind-ph*ck, the Twilight Zone. Old and new. I remember in particular one episode of the New TZ, I think it was called The Button. Press it and you get a million dollars, and someone *you don't know* will die. Ultimately, the victim presses the button, receives her prize and the gentleman who gave her the button returns to collect said button. "What will happen to it?" "It will be given to someone *you don't know*, of course."
Nicknames: I gotcha all beat. Lynn. It's one syllable, right? I know what you're thinking, not much you can do to one syllable. Oh you are dearly mistaken. One syllable is so innocuous that when I was growing up, it had to be doubled. Becoming Lynn-Lynn. And, as if this wasn't bad enough, some pithy individual had to go one step further and make it Lynn-Agin. (Again, for those of you who don't speak Texan.) To this DAY, invariably someone will call me that at a family gathering, most likely one of my cousins. I find that a pleasant smile combined with the murmur, "I've always wanted a necklace of human teeth," tends to remind them who they're dealing with.
L.
We were at a wedding over the weekend. The mother of the bride told us that , yes indeed, she and her husband had somewhat modeled it after our wedding four years ago, same venue, same singers, same reception hall; so it wasn’t our imagination when we felt that we were sort of watching out ceremony from a different perspective. The most significant differences were that I thought my wife’s dress was much prettier (yes, I am biased) and we did not have forty-some college age people in attendance, so our dance floor was a wee bit safer. And along the way found a well-preserved copy of Arthur C. Clarke’s “Across the Sea of Stars” from 1959; best 80 cents I ever spent.
So, I missed out on the conversation on “Big Trouble in Little China,” but it was great fun reading your comments. It first grabbed my attention with the Indiana Jones-style poster, then Russell’s opening (the only part you missed, Harlan, was “Jack Burton comin’ to ya on a dark and stormy night.”) They had so much fun with the stereotypes and cliches – I also loved the way Russell’s macho would disappear from time to time (“What? Huh? WHAT will come out no more??”), Wang’s evolution from just another trucker to martial arts warrior; the whole thing is so much fun, done with a wink-n-a-smile, how could you not like it?
Interesting, too, that someone also mentioned “Tombstone” as another under appreciated film. While the women were pretty much relegated to archetypal figures in the background, there were good performances by Russell, Kilmer, Elliott, Booth, etc. The set-up from the opening, quoting from Revelations in a dreamy state, to Russell restating the words with force after one brother was dead and another wounded. The portrayal of Wyatt as someone who didn’t want to fight anymore, didn’t want to draw his gun. How he learned to de-escalate a situation (the scene with Billy Bob Thornton) thru a force of character which didn’t permit the bullies to have their way, or if necessary thru the bigger-than-life reputation that preceded him.
Doc’s assessment of Ringo and people like him who feel nothing. The way Wyatt and Doc were able to communicate openly with each other when they both knew the end was near for Doc; or the scene of Wyatt with Creek Johnson (“I ain’t got the words.” “Yeah, I know. Me either.”). Wyatt’s proposal to Josie. I got about halfway thru Costner’s “Wyatt Earp” and gave up when he turned the effectively used and delivered line (in “Tombstone”) “I’m not going to let you arrest us today, Beahan,” into a throw-away.
As do others here, I’ve peppered my conversation with many phrases from these and other films and it is fun, as Joseph noted, when you get to share the film with someone special. Not only do they then get the context, but also that you’re not making fun of them (as Joyce did at first when I would say “As you wish” or “I’m no one of consequence” until she saw “The Princess Bride).
How does this ramble end and tie together? Unlike Lo-Pan, I have no plans to rule the universe. But I did marry the girl with dragon green eyes who has survived the burning blade and tamed the savage heart.
Kevin -- I saw your mention of Radio Spirits. Just last week I was browsing my local warehouse store and found an amazing collection of tapes called, "The 60 Greatest Old Time Radio Shows From Science Fiction" selected by Ray Bradbury. In this collection are episodes from Dimension X, Lights Out, Escape, Suspense, and the CBS Radio Workshop. The collection features stories by Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury, Vonnegut, Wells and Verne among others. There is a booklet inside describing the history of Science Fiction on Radio. As an added bonus there is a picture of Bradbury and HE presenting the Inkpot Award to Julius Schwartz at the 1981 Comicon.
The catalogue that was included mentioned that more episodes of other radio shows can be found at www.Radiospirits.com
This really made up for getting backed into in the parking lot on the way home.
Chris
Joseph,
Tell-Tale Heart and The Cask of Amontillado having nothing in common? No, none whatsoever. That's why I confused them.
This was all last night: it was late, I was tired, I was lame.
Rob,
Let's all assume that my first sentence read:
I didn't even notice that both stories have a similar theme: buried bodies.
Okay? Now, I'm going to go slam a copy of "Elements of Style" between my eyes for a few minutes...
David,
'Eraserhead', implausible? It was its very plausibility - its REALISM - that drew me in so much. It was unequivocal empathy, man. It certainly looked like MY world, so I figure it must look like EVERYONE'S. (I don't think anyone's going to wanna get near me after THIS).
'Being There' is a great film, but was SO depressing for me, THROUGHOUT, that, well, in the final analysis, personally, I decided I didn't like it. To be that brain dead, that socially lobotomized, it was like experiencing someone's death before he even had a chance.
Rob,
I don't even think that they do share something in common: buried bodies.
Incidentally, there was a Lovecraft tribute anthology about a decade ago, with all-new stories, once which was a man seeking immortality by having a "Chaim" inscribed on his heart so that it would beat forever. You guessed it: the climax of the story is the old man and his housemate, who keeps peeking through the door when the man is asleep....
Now that's comedy!
Joseph,
Ah-hem...Poe told me since then he'd switched titles between Tell-Tale Heart and The Cask of Amontillado. They fit the respective stories better. You never KNEW that? Jeezus, Joe, how foolish you must feel. But we'll forgive you for the oversight this time.
(I may never hear the end of this).
Oh yeah, I knew there was something else I meant to add. This weekend's video rentals were: "Election" with Matthew Broderick and Reese Witherspoon, and Guy Ritchie's first feature, "Lock, Stock and Two Barrels" -- both fine films in their own ways.
This discussion of terrifying movies and books has left me pretty much out in the cold because it's a genre I never really explored.
Oh, I remember seeing "The Legend of Hell House" in high school but it didn't have much effect because I saw it during the afternoon on a television in the company of raucous buddies and a teacher. I got a giggle out of Carpenter's "Thing," was rather appalled by Cronenberg's "Dead Ringers" (which I went to see for Irons and Bujold, not specifically Cronenberg or horror), but I have not been exposed to the vast majority of titles you folks have mentioned.
I remember being scared as a kid, though, by certain Sherlock Holmes stories ("The Speckled Band" when I was 10), and the violence and death in John Wayne's "The Green Berets" about the same age simply because I did not deal well with death.
I had a somewhat different reaction (different from the above as well as different from everybody else, apparently) to "Being There" with Peter Sellers. It made me profoundly uneasy, even upset. I can't even remember whether I found it all that funny. The message of the movie, as I saw it, was: People don't communicate, and worse, they don't know they're not communicating, and worst of all, it DOESN'T MATTER that they're not communicating. I found that very disturbing.
As for David Lynch, I'll never forget the three things I said after getting up from "Blue Velvet" with my knees shaking:
1) "That movie's enough to make you swear off sex forever."
2) "David Lynch must be a gas when he's relaxing at home."
3) "I think I prefer 'Eraserhead'; at least that one was TOTALLY implausible."
Correction: Of course that should read "too personal".
Harlan,
Curious to know, if it ain’t to personal, what comics are presently gracing your nightstand?
Thx,
Ray
Susan,
Check finally off in the post today for "Sleepless..." Apologies for the delay, we've had non-stop visitors here at Casa Groseth with requisite side trips here and there. Should get to you in a week or so.
Cheers,
Peg
Harlan and Susan,
"Sleepless Nights…" arrived on Saturday in pristine condition. The personalization was terrific and brought a huge grin to my mug. Thanks, to both of you.
Ray
Rob,
I think the Poe story you mean is "The Cask of Amontillado."
All,
As long as we're recommending books, pick up the funniest novel ever: "Three Men in a Boat," by Jerome K. Jerome. Then pick up Connie Willis' "To Say Nothing of the Dog," which manages to be a hugely funny science fiction take on the same week as the events of "Three Men."
Regards,
Joseph
Alejandro: Thanks for the suggestions. I've read just about everything that Neil Gaiman and Jonathan Carroll have written and enjoyed it all. I'm looking forward to tracking down some of the other works mentioned. "The Carpenters Pencil" sounds fascinating and I have already put a reserve on it from the local library. (Sidebar: I'm always amazed when the local library has something I want. I used to work in their catalog department and I know that most of their budget seems to go for romance novels and popular music. Not that I'm bitter or anything...)
Matthew: Thanks for the advice. I'll contact Andromeda Books by the end of the week to find some of the items on my list. I've found most of the Kim Newman material I was looking for. I agree that Theatre of Blood is a great movie and I'm looking forward to the DVD release on 8/31.
Dennis
Dennis – Buying books from the UK:
I have the same problem as you, only reversed. I gave up on ordering US books from Amazon after they took 19 months to send me a book. Rather than coping with amazon.co.uk you could try www.waterstones.co.uk which is the UK equivalent to Barnes & Nobles. However I’d recommend you find an independent book shop. Chris Drumm (http://members.aol.com/cdrummbks/) is in Iowa and has been very good at ordering books in the US for me, and from his catalogues I see he also orders quite a few UK books. He’s always been very obliging, so if it’s UK horror, sf, fantasy you’re interested in he might be worth a try. However, if you want a UK-based supplier then I would have to heartily recommend Andromeda Books (http://www.andromedabook.co.uk). If it’s in print in the UK they can get a copy of it and they also have quite a good backlog of stuff. Good luck with Kim Newman – most of his books have been reissued in the UK over the last 2 years except for his first two short story collections and the film criticism.
And since everyone else is recommending:
Nastiest short story – “The Two Bottles of Relish” by Lord Dunsany. And a lot of Avram Davidson’s stories are unremittingly creepy. I would also mention that there’s a new collection of Fritz Leiber’s horror fiction out, “The Black Gondolier” from Midnight House.
Scariest film – “Peeping Tom” by Michael Powell. Although “Theatre of Blood” with Vincent Price and a supporting cast of some of Britain’s finest character actors is a joy to watch every time.
Ed Champion:
Meant to respond earlier re: Morricone on 'The Thing'. Of a matter of fact for years I thought it WAS Carpenter's score, as usual. Yes, it DOES sound like one of his gigs. Dunno what the deal was but I'm sure it was a quick buck. I've heard a number of flat disappointing scores from Morricone at times anyway, compared to his crowning best.
Aaaaaand swerving back to 'They Live', I DID like the satirical elements. The hell with symbolic sublety, I ALWAYS thought of conservative Republicans and selfish Yuppies as enemies from space.
And now steering back again, around the block to Vinny Price Street: Sorry, someone brought up 'Tales of Terror' (Amy?). Had mixed reactions to that one but the segment that REALLY scored with me was Price and Peter Lorre in their take on Tell-Tale Heart. As Lorre slowly, casually entombs Price in a wall brick-by-brick Price hollers and cries out for help, and in his famous monotone Lorre quietly advices: "stop yelling, it bothers meee." That was extremely maxed-out funny. Absolutely broke me up.
Amy: I'll unapologetically state that David Lynch is one of my favorite living filmmakers (and, with the demise of Kubrick, Sam Fuller and Kieslowski over the past year, the list is very short). "Eraserhead" is an outre mishmash, but that terrifying soundtrack and the atmosphere within that ratty apartment, to say nothing of the Freudian subtext, are just some of things that makes it so profoundly disturbing. As for John Waters, he's a better talker than he is a filmmaker.
Joseph: Yes, I remember that Neil Gaiman story quite well. It read like some strange collaboration between Ramsey Campbell and H.P. Lovecraft. Genuinely thought-provoking and unsettling.
As far as book recommendations, for a tight, well-written adventure story, try Michael Moorcock's "The Dreamthief's Daughter." I read the novel Elric of Melnibone as a kid and it's nice to know that the character has grown up right along with me. Moorcock manages to weave in some thoughts on the rise of fascism and how dictators are created along with the derring-do.
So I'm catching up on the board, the discussion turns to scary stories, and I remember John Bellairs' chiller for younger readers of all ages, "The House with a Clock in Its Walls". One of the first horror novels I ever read, and it still gives me the willies when I think about it. Then I see Joseph's post, and I can't help but grin. Then I look it up on Amazon.com, and see it's not out of print. My grin widens.
One of the scariest movies I've seen in "The Silence of the Lambs". Hannibal Lecter is the epitome of the monster-with-a-human-face. And this guy's a DOCTOR. How well do you know YOUR analyst? Brrrrr...
Mitch
Oooooooopppppsssss! The message was meant to Dennis not Michael. Sorry for the name change.
Michael:
Let me start my long list of suggestions by recommending the works of an Spanish novelist I have praised here before: Arturo Pérez-Reverte. His intellectual thrillers are brilliant and entertaining. Although I do have some problems with the way he ends his stories; sometimes Pérez-Reverte gets so entangled in the intellectual puzzles he creates and becomes so obssessed with the research he did for his novels that he never quite manages to end his stories in a clean, logical way. Some of his books have already been translated into English: "The Flanders Table", "The Dumas Club" (upon which Polanski's "The Ninth Gate" was based; Polanski and Pérez-Reverte streamlined the novel's complex plot. There is a whole subplot dealing with rare editions of Alexandre Dumas' "The Three Musketeers" that never quite made it to the film), "The Fencing Master" and "The Seville Connection" (in my opinion, his weakest of the four). Unfortunately, his best books have not yet been translated into English and may not be translated because Pérez-Reverte deems to be too Spanish and may loose their essence in the translation: a six-part series featuring the swashbuckling adventures of Capitán Alatriste in 17th Century Spain. Four of the books have already been published in Spanish. Beautiful stuff; I usully read them in one seating. He's got another huge intellectual thriller out called "La carta esférica" which has yet to be translated: a 600+ pages seafaring, treasure hunting novel.
If you like Borges and Ellison and Gaiman and Cortazar, you will love Manuel Rivas' "The Carpenter Pencil", a short highly poetic novel about a pencil possessed by the spirit of a Spanish Republican carpenter and how the pencil becomes the conscience of a fascist prison warden in Post Civil War Spain. Rivas is one of the premier gallego writers today, one of the leaders of a cultural Renaiisance in the Celtic province of Galicia, Spain. Must be read while listening to the msic of gallego bagpipers Carlos Nuñez and Susana Seivane (to whom I might be related since my grandfather''s and my mother's surname is Seivane, a rather rare gallego surname.)
And as you can tell we are all big Neil Gaiman fans. Jonathan Carroll is another author worth checking out. And I would also add Rosario Ferré to the list; her novels "Eccentric Neighborhoods" and "The House in the Lagoon" are outstanding examinations of Puerto Rico's political crisis and its impact on the island's upper middle class. Ferre in fact is daughter of Luis A. Ferre, the pro-statehood governor who ruled the island between 1968 and 1972; "Eccentric Neighborhoods" is loosely autobiographical.
Anything by John Le Carré and Joyce Carol Oates is worth picking up. Oh, yes, and Cuba American writer Achy Obejas's new novel "Days of Awe" is coming out next Tuesday July 31. It's about Cuba's Sephardic Jewish community in both the island and exile.
There, that should get you started. Anyone want to jump in?
Joseph,
There are two versions of that Escape episode "Three Skeleton Key" available. Amy mentioned the Vincent Price version. The second version stars William Conrad. Radio Spirits has it 1-800-723-4648 or www.MediaBay.com. They will send you a nifty catalog with other great stuff. i also commend to your attention a great radio series called, Quiet,Please. Theater of the mind at it's best.
Enjoy,
Kevin.
other then the good Dr. Asimov how many other Science Fiction writers were stationed or lived in Philadelphia Pa. during the WWII years? Just curious because I was re-reading a story on the
"Philadelphia Experiment".
Having read the message board and realizing that this may be the only bastion of well-read people on the internet, I thought I'd ask for suggestions about reading material.
I've read everything by HE that I can put my hands on. I'm currently buying and reading everything I can get by John Wyndham and Kim Newman. (Sidebar: Does anyone know of a better vendor than amazon.co.uk to get books that are only available in England from?)
I've also read everything the Columbus Metropolitan Library has by Gerald Kersh (Fowler's End and Prelude to a Certain Midnight). I have to agree with HE that Mr. Kersh is a great author.
Any suggestions out there from Wonderland?
Amy: It's good to see another Vincent Price fan out there. If you can still find it, I recommend a book called "The Complete Films of Vincent Price" by Lucy Chase Williams. It is a very good reference book to all of his work.
John,
Your comment about haunted cities (and I do plan to pick that up) reminds me of a Neil Gaiman issue of Sandman (#51, collected in the magnificent "World's End" trade). Instead of a haunted city, the story is about the dreams of cities - and leaves the reader wondering "what would happen if the cities woke up?" One of my personal favorites, especially with the magnificent art of Alec Stevens (which is in several strips across the page, rather than the standard comic page). Well worth picking up - it's part of some great tales in an inn at the End of Worlds.
Regards,
Joseph
Amy,
Ernie in the oily leather thong...I don't understand, sounds damn sexy to me!
Harlan,
...I can't figure out whether to take that as a compliment or an insult!
Regardless, my girlfriend will be ecstatic about getting involved with any assemblage conspired against me. Doesn't hurt that she has two masters in literature, either. She teaches some odd thing called English to ESL students nowadays.
But I warn you, there's a deep, dark side to her - like something out of The Shadow: she came from former Soviet Georgia. That's right! She was a - a commie! I know, I know, my face is awash with tears. But we've known each other since September of '95 and I've done my best to bleed all that evil out of her.
Her english is better than that of most typical Americans - not that it says much - and she dove into a vast cache of authors. We often have fun talking about them. When she was doing a thesis on Defoe I showed her Robinson Crusoe on Mars, just for fun. She loved Mantee.
Her name is Lana. Evil, pernicious Lana. She may show up here by next weekend.
BTW, I'll take credit for the brilliant psychoanalytical conclusions.
Michael--The Lovecraft story about the mad violinist is "The Music of Erich Zann." I don't remember the story that well but JK Potter did an illustration of the protagonist as satyr that is pretty damn creepy.
Harlan--Yes, SONG OF KALI was chilling. The thing that made it especially creepy is that it works even without the supernatural intimations. There have been hundreds of stories about haunted houses, but very few about haunted cities.
Sure, it's okay; just peachykeen, Rob. But apart from the salutary psychoanalysis and the truly astounding breakthrough, to be frank about it...your girl friend sounds like someone we'd love to have around hereabouts to chat with. If we have to put up with you to get her to visit, well, that's just the White Man's Burden.
Cheerily, yr. pal, Harlan.
Amy,
A) Thanks for the info on where to find "Escape."
B) Ron Jeremy is still doing movies? Yech. Allow me to apologize.
Joseph--I have it as part of a collection on CD, but it's also available on a single cassette at mediabay.com. Search for "Escape" and you'll find it on the second page...a bargain at $6.98!
step right up,
amy
Rob: Do I know of Doctor Phibes...but of course! I can't remember life before Vincent Price movies. Channel 9 was where I turned every Sunday for my weekly dose of horror. Lots of Corman, animation by the god Ray Harryhausen, and naturally, Vincent Price! I subjected my husband to "The Abominable Doctor Phibes" about a month ago when it was on AMC...he absolutely refused to stick around for "Dr. Phibes Rises Again." Hmph.
"Homer's Phobia" is one of my favorite Simpsons episodes! John's explanation of the things he sells in his shop pretty much sums up how I see his films..."tragically ludicrous, the ludicrously tragic." No, not like when a clown dies.
Since I have no interest in majorly top-heavy women, Russ Meyer just doesn't do it for me. But if it works for you, hey, go ahead and get your ya-ya's out. My complaint about sex pics is this--how come guys get Jenna Jameson, and we get Ron Jeremy? He's about as erotic as Ernest Borgnine in an oiled leather thong.
If I seem sort of random today, I apologize...my central a/c blew a compressor at 4 this morning and we've hit 105 in the shade. Brain damage, ya know.
amy
Scariest movie I've seen in years is the Japanese movie "The Ring" and the "Ring 2". MUST SEES!!! Not Gory or violent at all. I couldn't sleep for days, was afraid of windows, mirrors and doors, and then had nightmares when I finally did sleep. Showed it to my sisters and they weren't scared but then in the middle of the night my older sister comes busting into the room saying how she couldn't sleep near the TV. We all had to sleep in one room that night. SHe was sure the movie had subliminal messages.
Recently saw Cronenburgs "Scanners" which was one of his better ones, it rates up there with "The Brood". Both are pretty good with the latex fx but not that scary.
Also just saw The Hills have Eyes 2 which was bad and unscary.
Champion, I'm a bad speller and lazy too, having to type all those letters but I won't mess it up again promise. not contort :)
Amy,
Thanks for the Vincent Price recommendation. DO you know if it is still available on tape?
Rob,
"House of Stairs," by the title, reminded me of a book that scared me when I was a child: "The House With A Clock In It's Walls." I always think of that book when someone brings up Stephen King's theory of The Bad Place from "Danse Macabre." I can't believe it's out of print.
For a funny Vincent Price movie, I don't think you can do better than "The Raven." Now that's a fun dark movie.
Regards,
Joseph
Entering the creaking gates of Addendum:
I MUST add to the reading list - how I missed it blows me away - is Matheson's 'I Am Legend'. Man, I was TRANSfixed. Read it a few times in direct succession: after the story's closing sentence, I closed the book, put it down, and literally a few minutes later I picked it up and started all over. For a while I kept grabbing the book like a syringe. One of the most subjective novels I've ever read. I felt so alone, sitting there with Robert Neville in his boarded up house.
Others I'm determined to read much more of include Dahl and Carroll.
Amy,
I agree with you that it's often hit n'miss with David Lynch. But I was enamored of Eraserhead. Its darkness (literally), every shot thoroughly symbolic, the entire movie is a dream - a nightmare. But the viewer never wakes. (Eyes Wide Shut works the same way. It's a dream - nothing to be taken literally, and maybe my looking at it that way is the reason it worked for me, as the empty streets of New York Cruise walks through exemplifies (you think NY is ever empty?), until the end, of course, when the couple step out of their tempting fantasies and reconcile; unlike with Eraserhead, we open our eyes and must cope with the real world).
Also, since you brought up Vincent Price, did you ever see 'The Abominable Dr. Phibes'? Hilarious, dark stuff. Really beautiful soundtrack too. The music was like a co-star. (N'then there was -ah-hem - that stunningly cute, sexy mute assistant killer of his; I realize that part is for me but I had to mention it).
Now, Amy...I would HOPE yer boyfriend could handle Russ Meyer better than John Waters. That is called the Ideal Universe. Otherwise, I think I know why ya lost 'im. I refer you to a very instructing Simpsons episode with John Waters, and Homer trying to "save" his son.
Peg,
I love Kubrick's The Shining, in all of its dark humor and evocative splendor, except for the end. (There are only two Kubrick movies that let me down at the end, and no more than two; this one and Eyes Wide Shut). After such an ingeniously edited build-up, the kid telepathically communicating messages to Hollerin 3000 miles away (who seems to be understanding them only subconsciously) by transmitting images THROUGH the eyes of Jack when he's going into room 202 (or whichever number that was), heartbeats on the soundtrack for almost 20 minutes, the poor guy drags his ass out on a plane because of a caring heart only to walk in the doorway and call out like someone from Uncle Tom's Cabin, "'s anybody 'ome?" (all of a sudden he doesn't seem to be psychic anymore; recall, he used to see and sense the ghosts there; now he doesn't even sense a brainless maniac with an ax waiting for him a few feet away). Man, I ALWAYS wanted to sit down with Kubrick and talk about what was going through his head with that ending. But the rest of the movie I like a lot, for the most part. It's funnier more than it is scary, which was Kubrick's way. (Hated the TV movie version King did himself a few years back and how it goes out of its way to explain EVERYTHING to us; and the hedge animal scene amounted to nothing; Kubrick wouldn't use it because he didn't feel the technology was yet available - the main reason he'd held out for so long with A.I. - but I didn't think the hedge animal concept was scary, anyway. I think I turned out to be right).
I just finished reading Harlan's piece in Locus. It was an outstanding read, one of Harlan's traits I most admire is his sometimes brutal honesty in getting his point across, and this piece has it in spades.
In the scary movie category it would have to be the Wizard of Oz seeing it for the first time as a child, those flying monkees scared the crap out of me.
Peg: Your memory of being wrapped in a blanket on the floor watching scary movies triggered one of MY memories.
A movie, or at least a segment of one, that reeeaallllly got me was the third part of Trilogy of Terror. Karen Black. Little warrior doll. I was FOUR when I saw that. Yeek!
amy
Re: the spooktacular. Nothing is scary to me these days, I'm more drawn to the evocative, haunting stuff. But when I was a kid (and I never read much horror) I'd say a number of stories by Ambrose Bierce - two titles I recall, 'One Officer, One Man' and 'Coup de Grace' - chilled me, and lots of Poe (his life as much as his stories). Harlan's 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' wouldn't let me alone. And I remember a juvenile novel called 'House of Stairs' by Sleator, I believe was the author's name, that was very, VERY disturbing (it echoed some of the disturbing imagery of 'The Prisoner' quite subjectively). Orwell's Animal Farm. A number of stories by Wells, including, of course, War of the Worlds and The Time Machine. I never did get around to Lovecraft and Kafka, but I swear, sometime I will.
Reading the real account of Jack the Ripper kept me awake for days. So did my Calculus text book.
Flicks that scared me when I was a kid: 'Night of the Living Dead', easily. I remember 'The Norliss Tapes' with Roy Thinnes scaring the HELL out of me, too. That was a tv-movie I think was meant to be a proposed series pilot. Then Thinnes did another tv-movie in the 70's about witchcraft and paganism, where he plays a Pat Boone-ish preacher in the 19th century passing through a nice, "friendly" little western town that winds up hanging him by his foot and burning him in the church at the end. Be damned if I could ever recall the title, I must've been around eight when I saw it. But I think it was a Stephen King adaptation (I was going to say 'Children of the Corn', but that ain't it; that was way later). It may have taken its inspiration from 'The Wicker Man,' which was several years before.
Then there were old schlock flicks on the tube: Horror Hotel (another one about witchcraft), It, The Terror from Beyond Space (of which 'Alien' is a more inventive version; UA actually attempted a law suit against Fox for the similarities) and a Corman import from Italy called 'Castle of Blood,' with Barbara Steele (effective especially when you're an eight or nine-year-old who firmly believes ghosts exist). There was also an Outer Limits episode I caught in those days, 'Corpus Earthling' with Robert Culp; back then that scared the fuck out of me. It was quite violent, paranoid and creepy, and very well-acted.
I guess, later, Jaws had to have been way up there for me. I was a huge fan of that film back then.
Edward:
"Eraserhead" is a good example of what I mean by disturbing imagery. I really did not care for the film (there are only a couple of David Lynch films that I DO like), but it haunted me for weeks after I first saw it. For me, it was a nightmare put onscreen--a senseless jumble of sounds and sights, not much plot, but freaky, man! That's my husband's favorite film. And yet, I married him.
Joseph:
If you're afraid of rats, you should check out a little radio drama called "Three Skeleton Key." It was from the "Escape" series. Vincent Price's performance is outstanding! Personally, I *like* rats n' mice n' such, but it still made me twitchy.
Harlan:
I read Song of Kali solely based on your recommendation, and man, were you ever right! My tastes run toward the dark, and Dan Simmons does not disappoint. I finished the book with that lovely punched-in-the-stomach feeling I only get from the blackest of gems. I occasionally loan my copy out to friends, making sure they know that losing it is a capital offense.
And y'know...when thinking about scary movies, I completely forgot about sweet old Walt Disney's kiddie films. Lampwick's transformation is truly terrifying. Stromboli also gave me a few nightmares.
amy
Barney - are you still alive out there??? Just wonderin', been a while since you poked your head into the fray...
Scary stuff - Don't go in for gore, much prefer the creepy suspenseful scariness (sadly, tinseltown produces much more of the former than the later these days). As to the scariest I ever say, I think this is often related to circumstance (ala HE's encounter with Snow White and Pinnochio as a small child).
I remember watching The Shining when I was about 13, laying on the floor of the living room, head propped up on a large pillow and the rest of me well hidden under Old Blue (the ratty, ancient family blanket, over which wars were nearly started to claim possession for an evening), and being petrified outta my young pre-teen wits. At one point I think my cousin said "boo" or something like that and they had to peel me off the ceiling. Had to go read something uplifting before I could sleep (one of the C.S. Lewis Narnia books if I recall).
Since then not much else has done it for me in quite the same way, although I'll second Harlan's vote on Alien, it definitely had me jumpin' outta my seat when I first saw it.
Peg
Rob:
Sure, sure, knock John Waters, but one of my ex-boyfriends was a Russ Meyer fanatic (and NO, I have nothing in common with Kitten Natividad) and another thought "Johnny Suede" was a really outstanding piece of art. John Waters is another one of those filmmakers I developed some weird affection for (or is it toward?) back when I was a li'l formless egg of a youth. Had "Pink Flamingoes" been my first exposure to JW, I doubt I'd have fallen for him, but I saw "Polyester" when I was somewhere around ten or eleven--and it was one of my first experiences with a non-mainstream film. Face it, when you're living in the heart of suburbia with a very straight, fifties-style family, you just don't get out to many art theaters at age 10. By thirteen, I was heavily into films of all sorts, but I guess you don't forget your first.
Okay--why do all my film memories wind up sounding like "How I Became a Woman" stories? Cripes. I'll stop.
John:
Unfortunately, I haven't been scared by a movie since I was a child, and even then it was more like being disturbed by a certain image than real terror. My parents took me to see "Jaws" in the theater, and the only thing that really freaked me out was the dead fisherman popping out of his sunken boat. Sharks? Pah. I went swimming at the Vineyard that summer with no fear.
HOWEVER..."Inner Sanctum" radio broadcasts scared the CRAP out of me. A few "Lights Out" episodes did, too--as a matter of fact, just hearing Arch Oboler intone "it...is...later...than...you...think," STILL gives me a chill. My brain pictures just put ANYTHING on the silver screen to shame.
The first story I ever read that frightened me was "The Wish," by Roald Dahl. If you haven't read it, it's about a little boy who makes up his own game about how to get across a carpet safely...red spots are lava, black spots are poisonous snakes, and yellow spots are safe. About halfway through, the game becomes real to him. Now, I was no older than eight when I read this story, and still very involved in my own little mind games. The image of the boy's hand plunging into the writhing serpents is just as fresh now as it was when I first read the story. Roald Dahl has always captured that darkly whimsical part of my mind. He was the first author to teach me that you don't necessarily have to leave your audience in a happy place.
amy
Just a quick note here to inform all Webderlanders that the July edition of Locus, the one featuring Harlan on the cover, is out. More than an interview it is a great, detailed, well thought out (well, duh) statement of purpose from the Man.
Scary movies?: Just saw one that won't be opening until August 10 but that pays tribute to the Jacques Torneur-Val Lewton school of terror: Alejandro Amenabar's The Others. Starring Nicole Kidman, this is the story of a mother and her two kids who are trapped in a house where things go bump in the night. Very moody, very atmospheric, has a rather uneasy feel to it and a whopper of a surprise ending. Am interviewing Amenabar face to face tomorrow (this is his first English-Language film; you should run all out to the video stor and rent his two outstanding horror/suspense thrillers "Abre tus ojos" and "Tesis".) Add to my list Guillermo del Toro's "Cronos" and "Mimic". Looking forward to the one film he directed in Spain last year before taking over directing duties for Blade 2. Forgot its title, but it's a ghost story that takes place during the Spanish Civil War and stars Federico Luppi, one of Latin America's most outstanding actors (some of you may know him from John Sayles' extraordinary "Men With Guns"). Oh, and let me add Darren Aronofsky's "Requiem for a Dream" to the mix and Ridley Scott's "Alien". I know there are a couple more that left a deep impression on moi.
As far as horror stories I've read that made me wanna run and scream Mommie!…well, I may have to ransack whatever's left of my memory to come up with a couple of titles. Give me a couple of hours. I shall return.
re: Scary stuff...
Off the first layer of scum rising to the top of my head, one story I remember being scared by (and I don't scare easy) was Lovecraft's tale of the reclusive violinist on the non-permanent street. No octopus-headed Elder Gods or nothin', but in spite of that--or maybe because of it--it's always been a favorite of mine.
I don't know how many posters here are (computer) gamers, but I thought playing "System Shock 2" in the dark, with headphones, was quite a chilling experience.
As for movies, "The Cell" was very disquieting, if not outright scary.
That's it. Thanks, Alex.
Phillip, is this the quotation you seek?
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." – Edmund Burke
I think that a lot of people do get stuck with a dimunitive of their name that just really sticks in their craw. My sister, for instance, despises being called El and insists (reasonably) that her name is Eleanor. Hell, I'd rather be called JJ than that awful name "Joey." Joe, strangely, I don't mind.
I guess it's all a matter of personal taste.
Regards,
Joseph
I’m enforcing a new rule of conduct for myself. From now on when I want to drive home a point or inform people on some practical facts I’ll mention it ONCE and that’s it.
Y’see, I had an illuminating conversation with my girlfriend last night while we were on the road. In a light spirit I told her briefly about my recent online interplay with Harlan. Well, the treacherous wench sided with him: "you ARE an asp sometimes when you talk to people...you don’t know when to let go. You'll keep bludgeoning a guy after he's already dead!"
Well, I don’t want to come across like a pit bull sinking his teeth in to the bone or a thug twisting your arm till it breaks from its socket ("to your knees and submit, cur! SUBMIT!"). No, I’m not that interested in alienating myself. It’s just a matter, at times, of not realizing how you sound from the other end.
So: if I have something to tell ya I’ll leave it at your doorstep once and you can take it or leave it. No more redundancies, no more fixations.
...ok, Harlan?
Hi All:
I'm looking for a quote again. "Evil is when good people stand back and do nothing." (Again, approx. quote). Anyone know the source of that one? It might be common knowledge for some of you (I won't name names).
Mr. Ellison:
Thanks for the clarification of that last quote I was looking for. You got me researching the original source now. Good stuff.
Re: Nicknames -- I hate "Phil," but usually grit my teeth and let it pass when it happens, unless it's someone I feel close to and then I tell them never to call me "Phil" again. People are ALWAYS pronouncing my last name wrong, and it's Phillip with 2 Ls, not 1. And wouldn't even think of calling someone "Susie." That's just... I don't know what, but it ain't good.
John Thompson: The most terrifying story I ever read was Lovecraft's "The Rats in the Walls." Most terrifying novel was Dan Simmons's SONG OF KALI, followed by Faulkner's INTRUDER IN THE DUST. Most paralyzingly frightening movie (excluding Disney's SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARVES and the scene in PINOCCHIO where Lampwick metamorphoses into a braying, demented donkey, both of which I saw in the original theater releases, in 1939 or '40 . . . which traumatized me for months at the tender age of five or six): the Ridley Scott-directed ALIEN. Far out in front of any other film--such as WAIT UNTIL DARK, a lollapalooza of a great scary film with Audrey Hepburn, Alan Arkin and Richard Crenna--that has ever freaked me out.
All a-tremble, I remain, yr. pal, Imbecile
Joseph: Yes, of course. Mild apology for the innocently-intended "JJ" presumption. Sometimes I wedge my wit in my mouth. Susan hates "Susie," and there are one or two very close, very beloved, friends of ours who've gotten that mnemonic stuck in their heads, and they call her "Susie" and both of us grit and bear it. So I get your irk on this one. It won't happen again, even with Webderlanders who are readers of Spider-Man.
Yes, of course, there's a nickname for Harlan.
It's Imbecile.
Yr. pal, Imbecile.
First, Susan, the book came, many thanks. Harlan, the inscription is much appreciated; thank you.
On films, I'm going to take the minority position on "The Thing." Whatever the flaws of the Carpenter version, it scores higher than the original because it's actually based on Campbell's story. The horror of "Who Goes There?" was entirely missing from the original overrated film
Besides, the Carpenter version has one of my all-time favorite bits of dialogue. When the security officer goes down to check out why the generator isn't working, he calls up to McReady:
"The generator's gone."
"Can we fix it?"
"It's GONE, McReady!"
Still, for a truly frightening film experience, nothing beats "Cabaret" and "The Haunting" (the original, not the god-awful remake). When the latter came out, John Campbell was so charmed that he wrote a truly silly editorial trying to shoehorn it into the SF world. I don't blame him; everybody wants a piece of an achievement like that.
Frightening fiction? Harlan's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" (not just the story, but one of the few genuinely scary computer games), Peter Straub's "Ghost Story," Fritz Leiber's "Conjure Wife" and Charles Harness' "An Ornament to His Profession." Okay, so my tastes run from the obvious to the idiosyncratic, I admit it.
Speaking of cool movies with cool lines, I just got around to renting PAYBACK, with Mel Gibson. I wasn't expecting anything great, but it was fun to watch and it was packed with great lines such as, "The thing with bad habits is that you either kick 'em or they end up kicking you." The movie was based on the Donald Westlake novel THE HUNTER (published under a pseudonym). And speaking of masterpieces, for me DOWN BY LAW, SEVEN and even THE STRAIGHT STORY are right up there with the best of the best. But that's just me. Carry on.
John,
For a movie that always scares the lving crapping bejeesus out of me, look no further than "What Ever Happened To Baby Jane?" Besides the rat (and I'm very, very afraid of rats), it's just a masterpiece of psychological horror.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph- I had a grandfather named Harlan. His nickname was always "Harley," though I've no idea how common that nickname is to your average Harlan. Of course, Ellison ain't no average Harlan, and I'm sure he's gotten himself tagged with plenty of nicknames over the years. I'll betcha five bucks a lot of them have been somewhat less than complimentary.
John- Off the top of my head, I'd have to say that THIRTEEN DAYS is damn near at the top of my scary movie list. As far as books go, I'd say THE RAPE OF NANKING, or HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS, or perhaps A RUMOR OF WAR. Something along those lines, anyway. "Boo" don't scare me, but that crap sure did the job.
Justin
Amy: I know what you mean. I think that analogy can be spread across the entire spectrum of art (such as Sinclair Lewis's novels after "Dodsworth"). Cinema-wise, I certainly feel that way after Sam Raimi's last two films. "For Love of the Game" and "The Gift" were astonishingly bland compared to his earlier work. Let's hope that the upcoming "Spider-Man" doesn't suffer from the same dry treatment. I'd hate to see a live action version of the cheesy 1970's cartoons (or even that one from the '80's which had narration by Stan Lee). Besides, Spidey (particularly in the hands of Peter David) is too cool to be given the shaft.
Rob: I too have a soft spot for "They Live." Despite Carpenter's skillful pillaging of the original Ray Faraday Nelson story, which ran a mere seven pages, and the ludicrous finale you mentioned, there's still that undeniably goofy atmosphere afoot. Carpenter's brand of political satire is certainly quite interesting: it's extremely rudimentary in its execution, but it somehow works. Another thing about "The Thing": Doesn't Ennio Morricone's score sound a bit like John Carpenter at the keyboard? I find it hard to believe that Morricone would sacrifice his talents for something suspiciously similar to the two-note cacophonies of Carpenter tottering over a Fairlight. It's interesting that the two of them never worked again. Oh well...perhaps it was a quick paycheck.
Contort: The last name's Champion, not Campion, and, as far as I know, I haven't been on the musical software lecture circuit.
John Thompson: As far as scary things, I may be condemned for this, but I'd have to nominate "Dawn of the Dead" for the intriguing sociological subtext, Bradbury's "A Sound of Thunder," that moment in "The Demolished Man" in which the universe gradually disappears on the protagonist, just about any of Lovecraft's Cthulu stories, "The Shining," "Eraserhead," anything involving a particularly evil Peter Lorre ("M," "Stranger on the Third Floor"), the ease with which William Shatner seemingly slipped into his role as a bigot in "The Intruder" (and, as a corrollary, that scary album he put out in the 1970's), "The Birds," Picasso's "Guernica," and Harlan's "Whimper of Whipped Dogs" as works that have truly haunted me.
Speaking of The Thing and Halloween and other Carpenteresque exercises in terror, what's the scariest film you've ever seen? Likewise,what book or short story sent a permanent chill down your spine? For me, two stories stand out in the fear factory: HP Lovecraft's "Cool Air" and Harlan's "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs." Maybe it's because I encountered both stories while still in my teens, but few other tales have lingered in my mind quite the same way.
Hey thanks for corrections, I was thinking of the Wizard of Earthsea which I did not like as a teenager and which up until now soured me on LGuin. I remember thinking the Island it took place on was very misty.
Online saw that Ellison did a tape naration for Earthsea so perhaps I shouldn't be admitting to the lit thumbs down here but excuses excuses ...I was an angst teen with a hatred for dwarves, elves, and wizards. Anyway, maybe I'll read more Leguin now. The Word for World is Forest is a better title. Little green men etc is cheesed. Yknow, I would like elves, dwarves and wizards much better if they just weren't called elves, dwarves and wizards. For a wizard old humanoid with some sort of superpowers(electricity out the hands) and a purple robe would suffice. Reedy gaunt lumminescent skinned talls would be good for elves and dwarves ....
Give m the typical names and D&D figurine connotations just kills it. I don't know maybe I should just give up my hatred and embrace old earth, get some black velvet wizard posters and grow some toadstools in my room at midnight--learn to love all as one and one as all.
Hey previous poster Ed Campion, are you the guy who gave that MAx MSP Demo the other night?? That was great!!!!
Harlan,
A) Thank you for the correction on "World...Forest," still one of the most disturbingly interesting anthropological science-fiction stories I've read.
B) Please don't call me JJ. Or Joey. Josephs take very badly to being called Joey. Also, and this is good advice for everybody when you meet a Finn, don't refer to them as "Huck." We've heard the joke before - it wasn't funnny then.
I don't mean to be a jerk - I just hate the diminutive of my name.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Is there even a nickname for Harlan?
Amy,
If you can watch John Waters I'm afraid I can see why you have an ex-boyfriend (g).
But your expose on returning to filmmakers you had a great time with in the hazy past was really nice and often very true. Right now I can't think of any myself. Those who gave me something when I was a kid I usually, well, stay faithful to in adult years, maybe given some compromise.
Edward,
My favorite Carpenter film is easily They Live. The second half gets mired by an obvious Schwarzenegger formula, but the material is so original compared to most of what the studio machine cranks out that I become very forgiving. The build-up to the discovery of the glasses, the hysterically relentless fight scene in the alley where the two growl and eat sidewalk like a couple of animals, and the subliminal world the glasses reveal to him were a lot of fun. I was uttering "I have come to chew bubble gum and kick ass" a lot for a while after seeing the flick couple of times. The general problem with Carpenter is he comes in with great ideas but never knows how to do them justice. Happens with him all the time.
I disliked The Thing too. Though I always felt the original was overrated the characters were likeable. I didn't give a crow's nest for what happened to anyone in Carpenter's version. These guys - supposedly research people - all acted like a bunch of jackasses in a frat. I hated the dialogue. The very end - where Kurt Russell and the black dude are facing each other over a bottle of whiskey waiting to die - was the only really redeeming scene in the whole movie. The rest is camp at best.
Harlan,
I enjoyed Le Guin's 'The Word for World is Forest' a long time ago myself, and you're absolutely right - I doubt anyone here ever knew it was called 'The Little Green Men' - leading me to mention that you are among the indisputable supreme with titles. This is a typical example.
Man, I'm bein' called n'I has to cruise.
Edward: I think everyone must have a film or filmmaker they love and defend despite the flaws. In my early teens, I was a big fan of Ralph Bakshi. After seeing "Cool World" years later, my interest in him finally waned.
It's sort of strange, watching the work of someone you once (but no longer) loved. Almost like running into an ex-boyfriend. You might see a glimmer of the things that attracted you in the first place, but the infatuation is over. It's so much easier to see the things that are wrong rather than the things that were right.
The thing I wonder is, how long do you keep loving someone for things that they did long ago? If you're subjected to a steady diet of crap, does it matter how much candy they fed you at the beginning?
amy
The title of the novella I edited and published in AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS (let's get it right, JJ Finn) was "The Word for World is Forest," and yes, Cortort, he's correct, the author of that story, Ursula K. Le Guin, was in nowhichway the same person who wrote the novel (recently a TNT 2-part movie), THE MISTS OF AVALON. But what neither of you know, is that when Ursula submitted the story to me for A,DV it had a completely different title. "The Word for World is Forest" was my retitling of Ursula's brilliant novella originally titled "The Little Green Men."
As for Carpenter's ludicrous and outstandingly adolescent version of "The Thing," I cannot break myself of refering to it as "The Attack of the Italian Food Creature" because every time we see the mawnstuh, it looks like ravioli or tomato sauce-drenched linguini.
HE
Regarding reviews: if you wanna see some REALLY off ratings, find someone who uses Tivo. My husband is certain that Tivo movie ratings are based on how much the particular channel has paid to air the particular film. That might explain why "Men Don't Leave" rates three stars, while "Oleanna" gets two.
Two and a half stars seems to be the "what the hell, I never saw this one" rating, encompassing everything from "Tombstone" to "Galaxy Quest" to "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers".
Granted, the ratings are a fairly new thing for Tivo, so perhaps they're just not up to speed yet. Leonard Maltin has been doing the "picks" for Tivo Digest for quite some time; it's sort of funny to see a movie with four stars from Maltin rate an anemic two and a half from Tivo.
As for me--I don't take any of them too seriously anymore. I have yet to find a critic who consistently shares my kinda weird tastes.
amy (as likely to be watching John Waters as Akira Kurosawa)
Carpenter had a better line in They Live: "I am here to chew bubble gum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum."
Still, as much as I love Carpenter, his films are largely a crap shoot. Halloween, Assault on Precinct 13 and Big Trouble in Little China (by the way, the DVD is fantastic!) are all solid attempts to commingle the Western with the modern-day approach to storytelling. Characters stroll across the screen, as if they're ambling into Dodge City. And when they run, largely to get the hell out of a precarious situation, the camera tightens madly into them. I still can't get the imagery of Jamie Lee Curtis having the lights go on and off on her from an unseen neighbor when she's trying to escape Michael Myers. Who is the neighbor? Is this a throwback to Kitty Genovese?
Vampires, Prince of Darkness and The Thing can all be dismissed as honed idiocy. At the root of these three dismal filsm is a desperation to titilate at the basest possible level, whether it be through awkward homophobia or unmotivated gross-out tactics. (Compare, for instance, the horrific makeup within The Thing with, say, a grisly death that reinforces the suitably savage tapestry of a Dario Argento film.)
Oh, by the by: does anyone here realize the guy who wrote the script for the original 'The Fly' was James Clavell? I never dun knowed it.
The star-and-a-half syndrome from Leonard Maltin and/or his assistants doesn't stop at 'Little China'. He landed the same hatchet on Blade Runner. Director's cut or otherwise. Completely blew my mind. Whatever flaws the film had it deserved a helluva lot better than that. Unfair is unfair. To the incredulity of some of my friends I no longer pursue the opinions of critics and this was one of the reasons.
Cortort,
Ursula K. Le Guin, the brilliant author of such fine stories as "The World For The World is Forest," is not the same person as Marion Zimmer Bradley, the author of "The Mists of Avalon."
Regards,
Joseph
Harlan,
Though it may not be in my personal top 10 (or, as you say, even 50), I am exceedingly with you on good 'ol Jack Burton and his swaggering bravado. I am so looking forward to receiving my rental of the new DVD that I can't put it into words.
The beauty of going with my lovely wife to see "Big Trouble" last night was now she can appreciate some of what formed my sense of humor (remember, I was 13 when the movie came out). Now she knows why I have a bad tendency to to quote Jack Burton when it's raining: "Yeah, but a wise man knows when to get out of the rain." It's fun sharing your childhood experiences with your partner - it gives the both of you a better understanding of your relationship.
Personally, I can't wait to hear in the commentary just which John Wayne performance Kurt Russell was parodying, or whether it's just the incompetent cousin of Snake from "Escape From New York."
Incidentaly, I'm watching the new "V" mini-series DVD, and I'm rather enjoying it. The performances hold up very well (especially Leonardo Cimino as Abraham Bernstein) and the effects aren't bad. What I especially enjoy in the production is the interaction between characters. There are some reallyh quite good interactions and performances that raise the mini-series to a higher level than might have been otherwise. Pretty good commentary from Kenneth Johnson, as well.
Yeah, Harlan, I know. One more person raving about DVD's. Regards,
Joseph
Hey I am reading Again Dangerous visions 1. Just finished the Ursula Leguin story. I liked it though it made me depressed. Kinda reminded me of speaker fro the Dead by Orson Scott Card. Last thing I read by LeGuin was the Mists of Avalon and I've been in the diehard Lequin sucks camp but since I've liked every Ellison story so far thought maybe if he liked it I would too and lo it was a good story.
Thanks
I've liked the first 2 stories too.
Joe Finn: BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA may not be the greatest movie in the world--as you posit--but if it isn't, it is right up there in my top 50 favorite movies of all time, and I am on record as not being a lover of most of John Carpenter's films (though THE FOG is also one I enjoyed eversomuch).
BIG TROUBLE is smart in so many ways, so much fun from beginning to end, so satisfying in every small detail--particularly the depiction of the "Three Elementals" and the black blood of the Earth and Gracie's endless Freedom & Power of the Press pronouncements and the moment when Kurt Russell (as Jack) fires the sten (or bren or whatever the hell it was) at the ceiling, and all the masonry falls on him and knocks him loopy and the moment when Lo Pan gets annoyed and says "Now that pisses me off to no end" and Egg's character and the . . .
Uh, ahem, kackkack (clears throat awkwardly)...I have no idea why this WOULDN'T be one of the best movies ever made. It sure as hell fulfills MY criteria for a movie that is obstinately watchable. Holey gadzoley bettie spaghetti, I will stay up till four ayem when, surfing through the detritus, I chance upon this special nutsywonderful flick. If for no other reason than that one of the greatest lines ever to appear in cinema occurs in the first two minutes of the picture:
Here comes Jack Burton's semi, the Porkchop Express, sluicing through the pounding rain into San Francisco, and as we come into closeup we hear his (Kurt Russell's) VOICE OVER: "This is old Jack Russell and the Porkchop Express saying, whenever someone asks me, 'Have you paid your dues?' I just say, 'The check's in the mail.'"
Now don't tell me that ain't worth the price of adoration. And though I love my friend Leonard Maltin, as all of you know, I cannot forgive him (or whatever minion on his staff) gives that superlative action-adventure-spoof---in which Kurt Russell does a John Wayne simulacrum that is hilarious and dead on and so great for just this sort of movie--a miserable one and a half stars. Junk I would scrape off my shoe sole gets better star-marks than that...what the hell is THAT all about!?!
As we in the Kosher Nussbaum (the Jewish version of the Mafia) say: it is an infama, oiy vay!
Yr. Sinema Sweetheart, Harlan.
Mr. Cairns: The quotation your're trying to recall was one I used, not one I created. It is "Any action, even if it is the wrong action, is superior to NO action." And it was uttered by Von Clausewitz, the great military and chess tactician.
HE
Amy: I have no vaguest idea if there will be a Webderland Posse Get-together at the Dragon*Con this year, but if the concern is about "hotel food," then flense your fear, sweetums. The lobby restaurant at the Hyatt Regency in Atlanta serves---as I said weeks ago when starting the Philadelphia/Sagan saga---the best, the very best, the absolute hands-down champion best Philly Cheesesteak I have ever eaten. Hell, one of the reasons I didn't kvetch too much about going to Atlanta (a town I don't hold in very high regard, for a buncha personal reasons) to serve as Peter David's best man, was the chance to get that Philly Cheese at the Hyatt again. And three years after the first rush...zoom, there it was, just as fine. I be tawkin' FAHN, y'wanna hear me; word up!
Yr. epicurean pal, Harlan.
Alex Jay: Do not dismay. Neil's book is his, your book is yours. If there is a single truth I've learned after 50 years in this craft/business/art/"game"--it is this: a good book WILL get published. If you look at all the arriviste crap, media-darling ghostwritten claptrap, weary maunderings of writers who've seen better days, commercial kitsch and just plain ho-hum middle-range twaddle that clots the American literary bloodstream, you MUST buck up with the epiphany that somehow, somewhichway, YOUR good book will see print. If it IS good.
Trust me, Alex Jay: no good book languishes forever in a desk drawer, unless (like Toole's CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES) you choose to give up and immolate it there. Perhaps not this week, or this year, or even this decade...but it WILL get published, if it deserves to be published.
I swear I tell you this with all my heart.
Hang in there, toots. And never...NEVER NEVER NEVER hate a good writer because he or she has done well. Wish them the deepest joy your heart contains, for only by realizing that one good writer's good fortune means good fortune for all writers, and for the rest of the human race, do you maintain the purity of purpose that sustains you through moments of travail like the one you're traveling through now.
Sigh heavily at Neil's achievement, but do not waste a scintilla of energy on hating or envying him. His time is at hand. Yours will come. Or not. But either way, it will have nothing to do with what others have done beyond the most superficial glancing encounters in the marketplace.
All of us wish you well. Yr. pal, Harlan
*cough*
To move on from "A.I.", which I have not yet seen, I'd like to note that anyone in Chicago wanting to see "Big Trouble in Little China" on the big screen should hie themselves over to the Vic Theatre, where it's playing the 10 PM show. Not the greatest movie in the planet, but a personal favorite of mine - silly, adventurous and funny as hell.
Regards,
Joseph
I guess we'll just disagree, Frank. I didn't see anything at all in the end of the movie that supported the supposition that the Mother was anything but real. I'd agree with you that David turned himself off, I think that was made pretty clear. Other than that you're basically championing a certain interpretation of what was portrayed, and that's impossible to debate. I think the people that are ascribing a darker tint to the ending are giving Spielburg too much credit on far too little evidence; given the bungling of some other elements I already mentioned I'm not willing to extend him that.
But you saw it one way, I saw it another. That's one of the great things about movies. I will say this, though, and you can print it out and save it: If A.I. is ever, EVER, widely considered a "classic" in the caliber of movies like 2001 and A Clockwork Orange, I'll personally handwrite and mail every person on here who disagrees an apology and post the scan of it on this site. Regardless of what you might think of the ending, it's just not in that league.
Also, nowhere in my comments did I slight the intelligence of people who disagreed with me. I certainly made some comments about Spielburg's respect for his audience's intelligence, which I stand behind -- but that implies only that the audience might be smarter than he thinks, not that they are stupid.
Phillip, Frank, All:
Noooo, listen: that was nothing to me. I was laughing my ass off. I just wish I knew what species of bur I'd pushed up Harlan's "fundament". But my monk bros here in the Himalayas urged the following:
A short, pithy response to Harlan’s ranting probably would’ve sufficed, therein quoting a gay steel-worker from that Simpsons episode: "Oh, be nice."
It was a simple issue: way out where we all stood at Pink's, and none of us made a big deal out of it, we all had a great time, we couldn’t hear Harlan and it’s something I thought he should know for the future (and I had little info to judge my own comments by; I know nothin' 'bout typical crowd numbers). But instead of delivering the point with the lackluster of a straightforward posting I thought I’d color it up with DRAMA and PATHOS. It was a masque. The deep suffering, "griping" psychotically about the beautiful Packard, ALL that stuff: I was only...JOKING!!!
Does anyone know specifically what column and/or essay HE wrote: "It's always better to do something, even the wrong thing, than nothing at all." (approx. quote)
Susan: Well, shucks, ma'am, naturally. I missed out on the last BBQ-fest, mainly due to the fact that I'm pretty lousy about keeping up with the board here. At times, I'll check in daily; other times, I'll go for months without even signing on. I'm trying to pay a little more attention this time.
At any rate, I'm open to ANY event that doesn't involve hotel food. Drive-in theaters offer better cuisine. Or at least, they did.
stocking up on Prilosec,
amy
Why does the end of a movie have to be explained to ya?? It was obvious to me that the David robot turned himself off. The Mother was not the real one, and she was programmed by the uber robots to pretend to love him. Also, how can people think that ending is over the top with sentiment? That ending haunted the fuck out of me. Remember, all the people on earth died of global warming. When the uber robots talk about the "Genius" of man it was obvious they were programmed to think that way by the same "humans" who destroyed themselves in the end. I love that dark bit of humor by Spielberg.
Also what noone remembers is that Kubrick wanted Spielberg to direct this film, and Spielberg is very true to the original story boards of the plot. The reason Kubrick wanted Spielberg to direct is because Kubrick admitted that he was not good at directing sentiment in a motion picture. Also, Spielberg is good at fast directing. Kubrick worked on AI for years with Spielberg so I do think Kubrick would of liked the end result.
But to each his own. The only problem I have is that it seems people who hated the film are doubting the intellect of those who loved it. That kind of elitism I try to squash. Well no more on AI, unless someone gets it wrong again...lol
Rob, hell, I would of loved to of been taken down a notch by Harlan. Harlan has always been more entertaining when he is in a bad mood. Good to see the man aint goin soft on us. I just wish the guy wouldn't be so hard on Rock And Roll music. There is only one kind of music: good music.
PS..Everyone knows the Fantastic Four are the best comic book around. To anyone who disagrees, then it is clobberin time!!
Naw, I aint the violent type..Teehee.
(You may take the lack of an ending to the previous post as indicative of a long and anguished primal scream)
Lots of things; lots of things.
SUSAN: Sorry for the delay, but the check for SLEEPLESS NIGHTS now wings its way to you.
JOSEPH: You took the words right out of my mouth. PP:S-M this week was a great one. I've liked Paul Jenkins since his run started on HELLBLAZER, aftter Garth Ennis left, and I delight in the idea of a two-fisted combo of him and JMS writing great Spidey stories.
(Still, I worry; soon he'll be off THE INCREDIBLE HULK--this after his being the ONLY nonPeter David writer on that book whose work I can enjoy, to be replaced by Bruce Jones [whom I remember only for many substandard horror-and-ersatz-sf stories with Richard Corben during the Seventies and early Eighties]. This move, plus Jenkins' added responsiblity as Story Supervisor for all of Top Cow Comics, makes be trepidatious that he may soon stop spinning Spidey's webs ...)
ALL:
I hate Neil Gaiman.
Oh, of course, I've followed the man's career since before SANDMAN, in many different media, and have always enjoyed his work. He is, from all accounts, good company, a snappy dresser, a good friend, and a great family man.
But now I read AMERICAN GODS.
A good book; a good, well-researched read.
And I hate him.
You see, AMERICAN GODS is about--to be brief--a war between the gods of the old pantheons and mythologies and the gods of new, with many being killed along the way. And, of course, a war party has to be raised up.
Whereas my OWN book, SNAKE IN THE GARDENS OF THE GODS, is about--to be brief--a serial killer reaving his way through the gods of all the pantheons and mythologies. And, of course, a war party has to be raised up ...
Now, granted, they're different books, with very different approaches. But I finished this thing over two years ago, and have since been submitting to various agents, all of whom have been interested, they say, but rather too busy right now to take on new and unpublished writers. So I've submitted it to a publisher, and am awaiting a response.
Part of me is hoping that this helps my book, as people clamor for more myth-based tales.
But ...
Susan:
The cheque for SLEEPLESS NIGHTS was sent this week and should be arriving shortly.
Rob:
I wouldn't go into hiding because of HE's response to your post. That was nothing, man. He was just clearing his throat.
For those soured on "A.I.", I highly recommend a lovely little black comedy, "With a friend like Harry..."-the menacing behavior of Harry builds slowly, making it a fun thriller-it also has shades of King's "Misery" and Harlan's "Xenogenesis"
Cheers, Colleen
Harlan,
BTW, forgot to mention, I may be an asp but I'm totally odorless and the only fundament I occupy is my own.
LOL
Harlan,
NEVER, y’dig? NEVER will I refer to microphones again. Not nowhere, no how. I'll become a trappist monk first. We’ll just attribute m’crazy rantings to a defective gene.
Y’got m’nerves so rattled by yer hollerin'(hell, people throughout the office could hear you!), I may have to turn to Yurveda healing systems for any hope of recovery.
Now in unity of mind, body and spirit I will close the subject pointing out that I didn’t raise the matter at Pink’s either. We were ALL a mass of menschs, too polite to bring it up. (I heard a couple of people talk about it while I was in line for a very brief second, but daz all; everyone was very mellow about it).
But I’m not trying to slam anyone in the head for it or derail our fine institutions with accusations of conspiracy. I was just politely(?) bringing it to your attention in m’own inimitable way. If the crowds are often small, then - sure - it's probably a good measure to bring the mike along in case it all bloats like Soylent Green.
Meanwhile, I'll exile myself to the Himilayas till y'be likin' me agin'.
Yer stifled mug rat,
Rob
Harlan and Susan:
I just received my copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS. Thank you.
---Peter
Whoops, I wrote "Rob," and meant "Frank." I had Rob's perceptive remarks about happy endings and cycles in the back of my mind at the time. Sorry, Rob, Frank, and while I'm at it, let me thank the Academy. --Alex
Trembling, hat in hand, and, one hopes, not foot in mouth, I'm going to step into the A.I. sandbox. I'm sure I'll regret it, but, hey, what's a haven for?
I enjoyed parts of the film--particularly the over-the-top Gigolo Joe--but in the end, the end ruined it for me. It was horribly unclear. Those were the new generation of earthly robots? Well, gosh, with an intrusive voice-over already taking over the narrative duties, they couldn't have told us this?
Then there's the hair-spliced DNA mommy. She is, we are told, the real, honest to gosh, Mother. Geepers, success at last! But she'll only last one day (huh?). And when she appears, memory trace and all, she fulfills his every wish, and then, for all intents and purposes, they die side by side. Awwwwww. Makes yer heart just sploosh, don't it? How convenient that she makes no mention of her hubby or organic son, too. My wife and I had the same reaction: what the hell happened at the end there? Is this deus ex machina or what?
Now we're seeing various analyses of the film that ascribe it a darker tone than we perceived. Not just Rob's, which I enjoyed more than the ending of the film, but also one in the latest New York Review of Books. I'm sorry, but I don't believe it. Some years ago, somebody taught me the three W's of reviewing. To wit:
What was the film trying to do?
Did it succeed?
Was it worth doing?
I suggest that while the darker film Rob and others percieve was indeed worth doing...it's not what Spielberg was trying to do. If he was, he didn't succeed.
Now if he really had wanted to have a truly dark ending, he was missing only one element. He could have had the reconstructed mother and David repeat the Last Day over and over, an endless pantomime, for the delight of the new generation of curious robots. Now _that_ would be dark, and fitting to David's overall life.
Truth be told, the only reason I care about this is that Spielberg's next effort is "Minority Report." If he bollixed up "Supertoys Last All Summer Long," what's he going to do to a Phil Dick yarn?
--Alex
Saw an amazing review of AI in the Chicago Reader webpage that Wyatt should peruse. The critic made very good points about why the film was important. Certain scientific fuck ups aside, AI is a hard film to grasp at first watch. I have seen it 4 times (yes, 4!!). It is a much darker film than people give it credit for. The ending is far from touchy feely. David basically turns himself off and a programmed Monica replicant tells him she loves him. Not real love, but something to satisfy the kid, so the high class uber robots can keep their little "pet" happy. But guess what? David fucks em and in naive childish satisfaction turns his lights off, possibly getting the uber robots quite pissed.
Just read the review wyatt. Remember when 2001 came out it got quite a bit of the same bad press. Paulene Kail hated it. Classics usually take time to fully mature. But no hard feelings.
Amy:
If you guys decide to have a Webderland get together at Dragon*Con, gee, can we come, too?
Rob: With all due respect, get the f***k off my case about the lack of microphone at the Pink's soiree. No great ineptitude at the heart of it, no disrespect or laissez-faire cavalier attitude, and certainly no attempt to make people's lives difficult..it was simply that NO ONE THOUGHT OF IT! That simple. Circumstance conspired to direct all thought of acoustics away from what turned out, in retrospect, to be a necessity. NO ONE THOUGHT OF IT, ESPECIALLY ME!
Who the hell would've predicted more than 500 (some said 700) people would show up? We figured we'd be in clover if a hundred manifested themselves. The turnout was gigantic, and even when it was clear that we had overrun the venue, NO ONE EVER CAME UP TO ME OR YELLED THAT THEY COULDN'T HEAR ME! So how the hell was I, or Jim Cowan of Morpheus, or Richard & Gloria Pink, to know???
We aren't bloody telepathic.
To the extent, we didn't know, that I had not the vaguest scintilla of an inkling that people were suffering as deeply as you allege...I had no idea till you started kvetching about it here. Not one, not one single one, of the hundreds of people who sidled past me for autographs, said, "Hey, y'know, I couldn't hear a word you were saying." Not one. You'd've thought ONE PERSON would say something, if they were that discommoded, wouldn't you? A word, a snide remark, a flip of the bird...SOMEthing. But no. Nothing. Nada. Nil. Zip. Zorch. Silence at this outrage.
Which is not to suggest I'm doubting your perception or analysis of the situation. NOW it seems perfectly obvious and logical, in retrospect; so I acknowledge that you're reporting accurately. BUT AT THE TIME...at the goddam TIME...nobody said a word. Nobody pushjed through the throng to get up close, muttering, "I can't hear shit-all back there." And if no one had sufficient survival skills to bring the inadequacy of the situation to us, how the hell can you keep busting my chops over it, man?
The Pinks had never had a book signing there. Parties, yes. PR shindigs for recording industry types, yes. Brawls for birthdays, yes. House of Blues anniversary screamfests at 180 decibels, yes. But never an outdoor reading. So they just didn't think of it. Morpheus might well have been responsible, but Jim Cowan was in Europe, proposing to Teddi, till only a few days before the event, and he had left the arrangements in the excellent and capable hands of Joshua, who did yeoman service, despite the fact that this was the first time he'd ever had to put such an event together. Joshua was snowed-under with minutiae and ever-changing elements of the conundrum, but he pulled it all together very well indeed. This one thing slipped past him. (Hell, I'm not sure Josh had ever even BEEN to Pink's. He may not have realized it was an outdoor fest and mikes would be prudent. Whatever; he deserves no opprobrium; he worked his ass off. So did Jim, when he got back. They made it as worry-free on me as they could.) I make no excuse for not having thought of it myself--hell, I thought ahead enough to bring my own lectern--but it just slid past everyone's extrapolation of what was needed.
As you, or anyone who has ever been to one of my "lectures" knows, I am always fully miked and can be heard. So the engrossment, Rob, of the (how shall I put it) "criminal stupidity" of all involved in the Pink's party redounds to MY lack of foresight. And I suppose having you beat me about the beanie with it is the toll I pay for having had a slow leak on the Ratiocination Roadway, but enough is enough. In future--as always in the past--I will think of audio consequences.
I extend my personal, most abject friggin' apologies; and had you paid to get in, I would personally and happily refund the price of your admission right out of my own pocket. But what's done is done, what's history is history, what milk has been spilt is over the damn. Live with it, secure in the knowledge that you have shamed me to the point of esne forelock-tugging. I would go wander forty days and forty nights in the Desert of Individual Shame, but Susan needs me to tuck her in at night.
Hoping this will suffice, you redolent asp up my fundament, I remain, MOST respectfully, yr. whipping-boy, Harlan.
Ray,
Or, to quote Steve Goodman:
"The last time the Cubs won a National League pennant/
Was the year we dropped the bomb on Japan."
Joseph
Joseph,
Nothing short of the World Series. Hate to sound impatient, but it has been 93 years. True, as of right now the Cubs have a three game lead. However, beginning tonight, the Cubs face the Astros fourteen times before seasons end. It could get ugly, if the Cubs don't get more hitting into their lineup.
Ray,
You're leading your division by 3 games in July and you're complaining about McPhail? Will nothing satisfy your craving for victory?
On the other hand, that trade sucks at first look. I'll have to look closer.
Joseph,
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. To Cub, is to suffer. Hate to tell ya...but the Sox are done my friend. As we say in Cubdom, wait’ll next year.
Hey didja hear the great trade Andy McFAIL just pulled off? Cubs are now the proud owners of left fielder Michael Tucker who’s batting 242 with seven homers. Yippee! World Series here we come! Sarcasm? You bet.
Ray,
Hey, isn't your personal description redundant?
*ducks*
So, how 'bout them Sox? Looked reaaaaaal good last night.
*gack*
Regards,
Joseph
Colleen,
Received the August Harper's a couple days ago, but have yet to read the Cubs article. Will probably do so this weekend in-between watching the Cubs battle the Astros. There’s a real good chance my heart WILL be breaking after this series.
Long Suffering Cubs Fan Ray
Webderlanders fond of baseball(especially the Chicago crowd) may want to check out the article in the August issue of Harpers magazine titled "Win or Lose, The Chicago Cubs Will Break Your Heart", by Rick Cohen.
Hallelujah Brother Rob!!!
You've shined the bright, right, light on my evil ways. I shall go forth and sin some more.
Don’t b’lieve in reading, RAY. Never did, never will.
It’s a bane, an abhorrent anathema, a trifling, hollow indulgence, a blight to be eradicated to restore purity to God’s flocks. It has been such since the infamous Bard of Avon had reared his vile head. So get such wicked, misguided, nugatory notions out of your noggin, Ray. In fact, to help you get your head right, to find the righteous path, we’re requiring you to attend at least one book-burning. After that you come back to court in a month and present a signed yellow slip to the judge to the effect that you’d attended the meeting. Society can no longer bear the weight of such vices, for the day of judgement is coming.
We helped Abbey - got HIM to burn his Monkey Wrench Gang and his poetry - and, indeed, he felt better about himself. Now we're here to help YOU.
Rob,
If ya get a chance, pickup a copy of the book on which "Lonely Are The Brave" is based. It's called "The Brave Cowboy" by the late, great Edward Abbey.
Talked to the Webderland server guru today - there has been a major SYN attack all over the area where Webderland lives, not related to this site. Things should be getting back to normal now.
You guys are getting double posts because you're getting impatient and hitting send twice, or hitting the "stop" button during communication and hitting send again. If you don't do that, you won't get a double post. That's why the comments form sez what it sez at the bottom. And the net is too slow right now for me to realistically go in and fix them like I usually do. So bear with us in these trying times....
Ray,
The cool bit about 'Lonely' - what totally turned me on - was it's narrative angle. The seemingly extraneous and rather perplexing tie-in of Carrol O'Conner in the peripheral role as the truck driver in the early part of the film and brief intercuts of his highway trek throughout the main story of Douglas (an anachronism) as a runaway cowboy. After all he took the entire police through I was taken completely off guard by the end when I first saw the film. What stuck with me most was the helpless, disoriented expression on Douglas' face...and when he hears the gunshot (I won't give away what that was about in case anyone wants to rent it). I'm not one who easily takes to tears, but it gets me every time, man. Absolutely devastating. So many things run through my mind when I see his face in those last few moments. VERY unique story structure. It's both existentialist and fatalist. Almost like a Twilight Zone.
Alejandro et al - there is a worm attacking IIS servers. One of the major symptoms is that the server hangs. It is, apparently, quite widespread. I've certainly been running up against it today.
Maggie
Yeah, the server has been rather screwy all morning. Sometimes it will collpase just as you are posting a message. Sometimes it will just not give you any access at all.
Okay, I'm testing this: I am now pressing the submit button once. Let's see if it posts twice.
Rob,
"Lonely Are The Brave" one of my alltime favorites. A gem indeed, and in many Kirk Douglas interviews I've read, it's his favorite too.
Rob,
"Lonely Are The Brave" one of my alltime favorites. A gem indeed, and in many Kirk Douglas interviews I've read, it's his favorite too.
Rick,
The happy ending HAS been an eternally cyclical presence. It was a strong wave in the 30's, 50's and early 60's. It has been so again for the last couple of decades largely thanks to Spielberg and, even more, Zemeckis. So, it does depend on the time. The late 40's, late 60's and throughout the 70's, the opposite was in order: the tragic cynical ending was the IN thing. The Godfather films, Deliverance and Chinatown were blockbusters and their endings were thoroughly uncompromising. It's the existentialist stuff I can really get into. Sometime that kind of popularity will probably return. But I accept the "compromised" happy ending now and then: I liked Three Kings a LOT, for example. Same with some of the old films I got into. Still, the endings in a typical McQueen movie, particularly the ones in which he dies in the end, and a gem with Kirk Douglas called 'Lonely are the Brave' (I mentioned that one before) stick with me so much more. They are much more poignant and internalized.
Rick,
The happy ending HAS been an eternally cyclical presence. It was a strong wave in the 30's, 50's and early 60's. It has been so again for the last couple of decades largely thanks to Spielberg and, even more, Zemeckis. So, it does depend on the time. The late 40's, late 60's and throughout the 70's, the opposite was in order: the tragic cynical ending was the IN thing. The Godfather films, Deliverance and Chinatown were blockbusters and their endings were thoroughly uncompromising. It's the existentialist stuff I can really get into. Sometime that kind of popularity will probably return. But I accept the "compromised" happy ending now and then: I liked Three Kings a LOT, for example. Same with some of the old films I got into. Still, the endings in a typical McQueen movie, particularly the ones in which he dies in the end, and a gem with Kirk Douglas called 'Lonely are the Brave' (I mentioned that one before) stick with me so much more. They are much more poignant and internalized.
No, Rick, no, don't do it, noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
Saw Jurassic Park 3 last Monday at a press/public.promotional screening. Was bored to tears, BORED I TELL YA! Can't quite understand how many respectable film critics were bamboozled by this movie, giving it three stars and forgiving it for its lame script and piss poor characters. It's all about the dinosaurs, you know. As far as I am concerned, two more hours of my ever valuable life went down the drain watching this lame excuse of a movie. Hell, even the dinosaur effects didn't look that cool at all. Hate him or love him, you must give Spielberg this: he sure can edit an action sequence.
Oh, and don't ask Paul Riddell for his opinion. He would write a post twice as lengthy as your very good evaluation of "A.I.".
Come to think of it, let me alert the poor boy and drag his bloody carcass over here to cause some trouble.
No, Rick, no, don't do it, noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
Saw Jurassic Park 3 last Monday at a press/public.promotional screening. Was bored to tears, BORED I TELL YA! Can't quite understand how many respectable film critics were bamboozled by this movie, giving it three stars and forgiving it for its lame script and piss poor characters. It's all about the dinosaurs, you know. As far as I am concerned, two more hours of my ever valuable life went down the drain watching this lame excuse of a movie. Hell, even the dinosaur effects didn't look that cool at all. Hate him or love him, you must give Spielberg this: he sure can edit an action sequence.
Oh, and don't ask Paul Riddell for his opinion. He would write a post twice as lengthy as your very good evaluation of "A.I.".
Come to think of it, let me alert the poor boy and drag his bloody carcass over here to cause some trouble.
Rob - it's sad, but happy endings do sell. My favorite cinematic comment on the subject is Altman's THE PLAYER. "What took you so long?" "Traffic was a bitch." I'll fix the Add Comments link soon - FYI you can enter whatever portion of your name is unique in the search field, and you can just press ENTER after entering your name instead of clicking the button. I may add the feature of making your individual search bookmarkable (I would have to change the method of posting the form results) so you could just go there each time.
On the subject of things Spielburgian, has anyone seen JURASSIC PARK III yet? I've been invited to go to it Friday night, is it worth the price of admission?
Having just returned from a week away to find an official letter from my grad school informing me that I have exactly two months to submit or else, the possibility of a new Harlan chapter on the horizon is especially welcome.
Cookie: How's it going so far? I have to confess I wasn't completely truthful in the short email I sent you before I left. I didn't just put down the cigarettes; I actually had a skipping heartbeat episode that scared the hell out of me. I was a bit embarrassed to admit this as I have since started smoking again. I was just sitting at my desk at home when it started, and it seemed to go on forever, though in reality I think it was probably something like four minutes. It's impossible to explain what it was like - it would have been a very interesting feeling had I not been convinced I was going to die. That's when I put down the cigarettes, at least for nineteen months. In my own defence I should add that I only broke down and started smoking again in very unusual circumstances: I was stuck in Khartoum with my money running out, we couldn't get out to the field due to sandstorms and religious festivals, I discovered the collection I'd hoped to work on in the museum had been shipped to France ten years previously, it was incredibly hot and impossible to buy a beer even on the black market, and everyone there seemed to smoke like freight trains, so I stupidly started once more. I hate to make excuses for my own lack of willpower, but I do think if circumstances had been even just a teeny bit more favourable I would've been able to stick it out. You are to be congratulated for trying to give up of your own volition rather than in response to a physical complaint (mine actually turned out to be something normal and completely unrelated to smoking - I almost wish they hadn't told me). I hope your own efforts will be more successful than mine, but even if you do break down and have one, don't give up completely, try to keep at it. I think that was my worst mistake (after starting again, that is) - I should have quit as soon as I returned to London, and I didn't. It's going to be much more difficult now that I've been back at a pack a day for over a year.
Joseph,
Thanks for the tip. Will pickup a copy today.
Rick, your new search comments field deserves a christening but the "add comments" brought up "can't find page". I dunno, maybe that was just the server.
Re: your comments on AI. I told everyone the project would be 'E.T.-ized' before it ever came out but they wouldn't believe me. Sweet sentimentalism doesn't b'long in a Kubrick universe. Some people have said it's because Spielberg is an optimist. For the most part I believe it's because he doesn't trust the brain capacity of the audience. Take a look at Sugarland Express, his first feature. It has a bleak ending with little dialogue, leaving you with something to think about. The movie flopped. Since then his dramas have made outright lunges for the tear ducts, even explaining to us when we're supposed to weep. Leaves a condescending taste on yer pallet. I'm redundant on the subject but I thought I'd reiterate the point anyway to applaud your perceptive review.
For all my fellow baseball and comic fans out there (Ray and Aljenadro, this means you):
Pick up Peter Parker #33. If you could not care less about baseball, it will explain the appeal for you. It's also a story about love and loss. Swear to god, I'm misty-eyed as I write this. I can't really explain how affecting this story is: just that it will touch you in a way you don't always excpect to be touched by a comic book.
God bless you, Paul Jenkins.
Looks like it's working here, Rick. re: Final Fantasy, it beats the hell out of "Legally Blonde."
L.
The "see comments since your last post" feature is up. Try it out, let me know how it works. I chose to show your last post as well so you'd remember what you said and so you could be sure you were starting in the place you thought you were. Suggestions for refinements are always appreciated.
Peg - the stuff on my news page / appearances page is the latest dope I've got. It comes from the RABBIT HOLE mainly. If I hear anything further, I'll post it.
I thought Final Fantasy was one of the better computer game cutscenes I've seen in a while. Nice eye candy. Wasn't too much of a movie, though. And why didn't they just restore their save game when they lost a party member?
Lynn: Hironobu Sakaguchi (the creator of Final Fantasy, if'n you didn't catch it in the credits) said in an interview with the L.A. Times that much of his inspiration comes from the death of his mother. What do you think? And I'm glad someone here--i.e., someone who most likely isn't a rabid gamer fanboy--liked it, if only as a cheap kick; I've been hoping, begging, pleading that we aren't handed another Mario Bros. or Mortal Kombat abomination ever since I caught wind of the project.
~Jeff
Note: A message nearly identical to this one may pop up later. I reloaded the site--closed the browser, even--to make sure the message didn't go through despite my idiot-faced browser, but, to my knowledge, it didn't. Apologies if you're forced to sit through this post's hydrocephalous older sibling.
Rick - would you have any info on appearances by Harlan in the So. Cal. area in late September? I may be back over then for a family event; if so, I wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunities...
Cheers, Peg
Thought I'd ask while it was on my mind...is there going to be another Webderland gathering at Dragon*Con this year? I'd like to be added to the loop, if so. I've had all my vaccinations and I now have that biting problem almost entirely under control.
thanks!
amy
Final Fantasy was very good for what it was, which is to say that for a cartoon, it did admirably. It was also very Japanese. The storyline did not stoop to the twelve and thirteen year-olds that populated the theatre the night I went, and many of them walked out without a clue as to what had happened. High brow art cinema it's not, that's for sure. But it is a nice little flick, and the graphics alone made it worth the price of the ticket.
L.
Thanks for the detailed review of AI, Rick--I avoided the sucker because I figured it would turn into some big schmaltzy Pinocchio story. Sounds like it did. Any thoughts on Final Fantasy, or did everyone stay away from a movie sorta based on a (gasp) video game?
amy
Excellent rant on "A.I.," Rick. There's not much to add to it. Spielberg is as well known for his subtlety as the Spice Girls are known for their intellect. That's pretty much all you need to know when walking into one his films. Aim low.
To Harlan:
I pitched a question a while back and thought I'd try once more for a response. If it's a matter to be left alone, that's cool. But: they REEEEALLLY should've provided you with a mike at Pink's. Believe me, the vast majority there missed out on most of your oratory, including your two readings (the biggest shame of it). We're not all as smart as Lynn, who got there early to get a good seat. Throngs stood on the outskirts of the boonies waiting for books to be signed and wishing they'd learned how to read lips. They had to stand for hours in a sea of dead silence or talking among themselves...or TO themselves. And it's regretful to miss out on your words and your humor. Further, it's less strain on YOU and your vocals when you don't have to yell all night. I think it's important for everyone at those things to hear your readings in particular. There must be SOME way to make them guarantee a mike when an appearance of yours is scheduled.
Bereaved, Forever
Rob
My take on AI: skip the crappy movie and read Aldiss' most excellent short story.
re: AI
Excellent rant, Rick---pretty much summed up what I was muttering to all my friends as we left the theater. (This was, of course, after I had to explain that those skinny fellas at the end were advanced robots...not aliens! [Apparently, few people got this, according to Entertainment Weekly...or possibly Newsweek, I forget])
I agree that your version of the movie sounds like a better message..though it is a bit of a drastic re-cut. I would have been happy if they just cut the damn thing off when he was in the submarine, or just a little bit after, when the super-robots discover him (I admit that part was pretty cool...he must have been like Lucy for them, or something). Everything after that was sentimental pseudoscience shit. "We can bring her back from space-time for only one day" Sorry, doesn't fly (and why the coincidence of one day...what the hell does one earth-rotation have do to with their space-time maneuver...why not three minutes, or a year and a half?).
Enough said about the spinach in the kid's hard drive. Jeez.
And really, did it seem to anyone else that David's connection to his mother was not exactly love and more of a fanatic stalkerism? Seemed to me like there was some kind of software leash attaching him to her. It was just a flawed representation of his supposed almost-humanhood...otherwise, wouldn't we like him more than that so-called "outdated" teddy bear or the gigolo-bot? Both, I think, seemed much more human than the kid himself at times.
sam wrote:
"Still (im)patiently awaiting the conclusion of THE FLAMING BUTT OF HARLAN ELLISON."
Uh huh. You and me both.
After repeatedly promising another episode very shortly, someone seems to be sitting on his ASH!
(heh heh ... sorry ... couldn't resist....)
On a more serious note, I'm currently enjoying _The Nick Tosches Reader_, a collection of record reviews, rock star interviews (the pieces on Jerry Lee Lewis and Patti Smith are worth the price of admission), journal entries, letters, and fiction by a contemporary and colleague of Richard Meltzer, Lester Bangs, and Greil Marcus (if those names mean anything to you guys) ... and I just read a story called "Felicity Opens Wide" that I swear is about the closest thing to a Harlan Ellison story I've ever seen anyone else do. Gritty realism coupled to lyrical emotion, and a sudden-death ending. Check it out!
Still (im)patiently awaiting the conclusion of THE FLAMING BUTT OF HARLAN ELLISON.
Cookie: you don't need to heed any suggestions from me because I'm a smoker, and besides that for all I know you've already kicked the habit, but just in case ... my suggestion is, if you can't do it sooner, just wait until the next time you get sick. You WON'T want to smoke (trust me, it's awful) when you're sick, and by the time you get better (I'm thinking 3 days later, approximately), all the nicotine will be out of your system and then you're most of the way home! Just a thought.
sam
if you're looking to get silly, you better go back to from where you came
because the cops don't need you, and man, they expect the same
Actually, the humanity of the robots was one of the things that really stuck in my craw about A.I. (the other main one of course being the gee-whiz fairy-magic happy-boy ending). The core, the CORE, of the movie was supposed to be that man was finally creating a robot that could love - I mean William Hurt spends far more time than is really necessary drumming this into our heads at the beginning of the movie (which is no surprise coming from Spielburg, who seems to have a hard time believing anyone in his audience knows what a R-O-B-O-T is). We were then supposed to confront the morality and philosophy involved in having a machine that truly possesses human emotion instead of mimicing it.
But the movie completely fails to demonstrate a difference between Haley Joe Osment's robot and the others in that capacity. The other robots go off their programming, act in odd ways, demonstrate self-sacrifice on the behalf of others, and say any number of things which demonstrate they, too, care for others -- especially this "magical little robot boy" who has come into their lives. They fear the unknown. They fear death. They aren't machines, not a one of them. They're human beings with metal innards, anthropomorphized by either a bad script or bad direction with all the delicacy of a blunt head trauma.
the only difference we truly see between David and other robots is that he has the capacity to imagine, to believe in things which cannot be empirically shown to exist. He has FAITH - the problem is that while faith and imagination are certainly an important part of the human condition, they are not central. One can be an unimaginative human - one cannot be human and not possess the capacity to love.
Here's the way it should have been. The other robots should have mimiced human behavior, and at some point David should realize that he is different from them when they act in a way perfectly in line with their programming but unlike anything a human being would do. David should have realized that he is not only different from the humans, he is also different from the robots - he is a synthesis of the two and therefore doesn't fit in with either. His search for humanity would therefore be not just a search for his mother's love, but for a place he belongs. This would strengthen his motivation, explain further his need to separate himself from other robots, and make the examination of what it means to be human more meaningful and less some sort of find-Foozle-the-wizard quest.
Making the other robots act like robots (albeit very advanced ones) would also underscore David's alienation and after a while we would realize he feels very, very alone. Giving him two sidekicks that help him out not from their programming but because hey, they like the little bugger, undercuts this.
Finally, when he meets his maker and discovers the production line of David dolls, we would have the great realization that he is NOT alone, and in fact is being MASS-PRODUCED. This would be both a wonderful and horrible realization (I'm not alone, but I'm not unique. There is nothing I say or do or feel that one of these boys in a box can.). Then he kills himself by jumping off the building.
We could end the movie at this point, forcing the audience to draw their own conclusions - but of course that will never pass the test screenings. So we'll have David being revivied by Professor Hobby (not Joe, who of course wouldn't have any reason to retrieve a bot that's obviously off its nut), and then we'll have an impassioned speech by Hobby which spells out for us what we should have realized on reflection after watching the movie that ended when it should have ended -- that yes, we are not alone, and yes, we are not unique. We are each of us spectacular machines, but over the thousands of years of our existence there is not a thing we could do or say or feel that has not been echoed somewhere else. We are doomed to repeat the mistakes of others every day.
And yet, we somehow persist. We love. We laugh. We survive. This is what is called the HUMAN CONDITION. David is not made less human by having copies - he is made MORE human. And the movie would have been a far better one (it would have been perhaps even a GOOD one) had it brought us to that realization.
As it stands, A.I. was guilt of the worst sort of pretension. It claims to be a movie that will make us think about where humanity and technology are going, that will make us think about what it means to be human. Instead, it fails to make a clear differentiation between machines and humans, it fails to create a gap we can see David bridge. And it turns what could have been a disturbing, perplexing tale into a hokey quest for That Which Has Been Lost. I could not have been more disappointed.
There are, of course, other places where the movie completely breaks down for me -- every single person in the audience refusing to throw at David and Gigolo Joe, a little-boy robot design that not only doesn't allow for the mimicry of food ingestion but connects the mouth to delicate electronics instead of providing a bypass (I guess in this world they had not invented the "rubber tube"), the ludicrous costumes and designs of the robot hunters, the unnecessary and confusing hokum at the end, possibly destructive to the movie's central point, about souls and space-time paths. But it was the ET-ization of the movie that really got me. A.I. was, in fact, artificial -- but not by any stretch of the imagination intelligent.
…should have ended the message and proofread it before clicking the Send message key…
Last message should end by saying "…the scarce times I have been able to join in the fun".
Bad boy, bad boy, now go back to your room and don't come back until you learn how to proofread your own damn writing.
Guys:
hate to ran on your party but…baseball does get its cineamtic black eyes once in a blue moon. T wit: the Major League series of movies.
Granted, nothing, BUT nothing, can quite wipe away the bitter aftertaste that that Stallone-Michael Caine-Pelé-John Huston movie left oh so many years ago when I saw it on the big screen in Puerto Rico. Which is why I never became much of a soccer fan until now. At least I manage to wipe the title off my memory.
(By the by, soccer is meant to be watched not on television and not on a coliseum/sports park/arena. It's meant to be seen at a Spanish cafe in Galicia or Madrid (or in some Spanish restaurants here in the States) alongisde two dozen rabid Spanish fans driniking red wine and eating Spanish tapas. Boy, can those Spaniards curse and curse good. Makes me feel right at home the scarce times
Speak it to the heavens, sister. Of course, this is why we get the good movies, while soccer gets Sylvester Stallone.
Amen.
You guys that follow the Church of Baseball ain't got no place tellin' me that I spend too much time in cyberspace and that I need to get a life.
Sheesh.
L.
Harlan and Ray,
Let the best team win tonight and tomorrow, by which I mean sending the Indians home in shame.
By the way, I'm not being an incurable optimist and screaming "World Series! World Series!" I just think there's a chance. A chance, I tell you! I wouldn't dare get too optimistic (he types, clutching his Sabathia doll and plunging pins into it's arms while chanting).
Then again, I like to watch the opening of "The Drew Carey Show" and imagine Jacobs Field burning in the background.
Yeah, that's over the top. It is a game after all. I just want to sit in Comiskey for a World Series once in my life. I know I'll never have the chance to do it in Wrigley.
As for Jose Canseco, his bat has started to come alive for the Sox, meaning the price would be pretty high.
Regards,
Joseph
Ray: Yeah, I too found the Rocker embolism injected into the Tribe's bloodstrem odious and inexplicable, considering that the lantern-jawed moron's ERA ain't all that flash stunning to begin with. Were I not three-quarters of a continent away from the perfidy, I would hang my head in absentia. But, at least, I take heart from yesterday's news that He Who Walks With Foot in Mouth has been demoted to third or fourth relief slot. I don't anticipate Rocker will be at this venue very long.
What makes me loopy is the thunderous ovations he gets in every ballpark where he shows his slack-tongued kisser. More evidence that we have long since passed over from being merely (as Mencken phrased it) the "Booboisie" to a nation of rampant ignorance, obscurantism, anarchy, and icon-worship. When a Rocker, an OJ, a Monica Lewinski, a Howard Stern, and a bible-shouting stand-in for Tammy Faye who sports aquamarine hair down to her pupik can so easily and devotedly succor and enrich themselves on the approbation of Jukes and Kallikaks, well . . .
It's a world where, without much opposition, AOL can rule with an iron hand.
Has it been one of those weeks? Why...what do you mean? Why would you ask such a thing...?
Yr. pal, Harlan (P.S. Peg, Susan asks me to say, what the hell, send a couple of extra bucks, if you want to.)
Joseph,
The Twins were just swept by the Cards. The Pale Hose are now ten games back with ten weeks to go in the season. Do the math. White Sox pickup one game a week on the Twins and then…who knows?
Just asking…what would it take for the Cubs to pry loose Jose Canseco from the Sox? How good would he look in left field at Wrigley?
Harlan: Sorry, but the Tribe got the curse of John Rocker upon them. They could be doomed. I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.
Ray
Hey all!
Joseph J. Finn - hate to break it to you my friend, what with you being filled with anticipation and all, but that ticket of yours is for a game with the Twinks - who are actually playing baseball this year. Sorry. Maybe next year! ;-)
Also, glad that you liked Liberty. I worked for the KTCA production office during the time that show was in production. Worked my tail off too and the Liberty stuff was just so unpleasant (and I didn't get screen credit!) that, to this day, I've not been able to sit through the thing. I was just soooo glad when the editing was finally done. Most of the paperwork for the budget end of it lived at my desk and towards the end, I was in fear for my life from the sheer mass of it. . .
Hey Peg and all you other childless types. I am also childless by choice, although not for the same reasons I think. I believe, firmly, that no child should be brought into this world unless it is wanted by people who can support it. As I can not support a child, I do not have one. And Peg, you are SO lucky. My parents recently announced that they were coming to visit me over Labor Day weekend. My mother just wants to "talk." GACK! I KNOW what that means. She's done this before. Far as I can tell, she seems to believe that I am unmarried and childless simply to get at her. . .
Soooo, anybody want to come visit me in MN over Labor Day weekend?
Maggie
Joe- Sorry about the typo. I've gotta stop typing with my martini hand, especially when I'm still holding it.
Tammy
Hello.
Unbelievable. Never thought I'd come across Mr. Ellison's moniker on an internet bulliten board. What a tremendous compliment to the folks on this board that he'd stuck around for awhile, considering how Mr. Ellison feels about these things.
After spending an hour or so catching up on the postings, I was a little disappointed to see that Mr. Ellison didn't like AI. I thought it was one of the better science fiction films I've seen in a while. I guess I'm just blessed with bad taste. I never noticed the cryonics vs cryogenics thing until you pointed it out. I don't think that's a real biggie though. Granted, cryonics is the more precise term, but cryogenics isn't necessarilly wrong is it? And you never know, there might have been some cats hybernating elsewhere in the building. Certainly it was a flawed film, but it had its strong points. I liked the way the androids were realized quite a bit. Very human-like creatures, yet unnervingly not human. At any rate, it was an attempt by Spielberg to make an SF film that's something more than another Star Wars ripoff. I'm willing to give him some credit for that. It's so rare that such an attempt is even made in a big budget Hollywood film.
Hope I haven't bored or annoyed anyone with my humble opinions.
Respectfully, admiringly yours,
JLW
Harlan,
Oh, to pick on Orestes Minoso like that. The shame! The shame! Tell you a funny (and probably apocryphal) story about Mr. Minoso's proclivity for missing the warning track: one day, a mother of one of the players is sitting at Comiskey, as Minoso runs twice into the outfield wall. She is so concerned, she leans over and asks her son in the dugout: "Why is the manager making that poor man run into the wall so much?"
Tell you, though, "Call Me Minnie" is a good read. The chapter on his decision to divorce himself from Cuba after the Communist junta is heart-rending.
Just remember: we're only 5 games back of the Indians. And we're damn hungry after the famine of the 1st half. May the best team win.
(By the way, for the non-baseball fans: Orestes "Minnie" Minoso was a Cuban-born outfielder for the Chicago White Sox who had a habit of going REALLY deep for fly balls. So deep that he would occassionally miss the warning track and slam into the outfield wall. One of the most gracious men I've ever met.)
As for the Red Sox, Tommy, my name is Joe. not Jeff. I must admit that I have learned more about the Red Sox from Stephen King tha from other places. It's fascinating to read a writer of such great skill rhapsodize about his favorite team. I actually was quit disappointed when they didn't make the World Series in '99.
Jeff -
I was a little behind the times, but I actually spent the Fourth of July watching the entire six hours of "Liberty!" on PBS. I found it a fascinating use of 1st person accounts (I was particularly gratified by the potrayals of Lafayette and poor Cornwallis - not to mention an appearnece by Phillip Seymour Hoffman and Paxton Whitehead providing the British government's perspective as the Earl of Oxford.)
Regards,
Joseph, who dreads the day re-alingment puts the Indians and the White Sox in different divisions.
Ray and Joe Finn:
No apologies needed. Your umbrages on my behalf are duly noted. When either of you catch a minnie-ball trying to cross nomansland, I'll be there to schlep your misguidedly-Chicago-adoring asses back to the safety of the Cleveland Indians dugout.
(Tee hee.)
HE
I seem to recall Kevin J. Anderson recommending ARSLAN to me many years back, but I could never find a copy. I completely forgot about that until just now. I'm glad to hear it's been reissued.
J
Knowing that everyone here is literate in the sf area, I am seeking a recommendation. I noticed that "Arslan" by M.J. Engh has been reissued and have previously heard good remarks. I never read it and wondered if others here recommend it. Thanks.
Well, I've received praise from on high indeed! But, truth be told, if I have thoughts similar to Harlan's on some items, it's not surprising.
Harlan, you won't remember this, but about 13 years ago, I brought my wife, Robin, to the Superman celebration here in Cleveland to meet you. Marv Wolfman was staying at our house, and between the two of us, we chattered so about the amazing H.E. that Robin decided she had to see you--live and up close. Of course, you were all over the map--from "Dangerous Fishnets" and fans who demand too much of their writers personal lives and time to how writers are being robbed of credit by would-be "auteur" directors. Finally, Robin whispered in my ear, "Alex, he sounds like you."
"No," I told her. "I sound like him."
I still do. Yeah, I sometimes disagree with you, Harlan, but meeting you at 15, back in 1967, had an _enormous_ influence on the way I think. And my prejudice against webpolling grows out of that. Credit, sir, where credit is due. And your head's on straight, too.
--Alex
Jeff, as a resident of the Bay State, and frequent visitor to the Boston area, I can tell you that we refer our team as many things, The Red Sox and The Sox being two of the more polite.
Tammy
I'd love to see a program based on _A People's History_--I'm tired of the junk they broadcast on The History Channel (they created a gameshow, folks), and it'd be nice to see something different from the twelve billion documentaries on either WWII or the Civil War currently in circulation; something more complete that acknowledges the fact that there are large chunks of history that don't involve war.
Otherwise: my thanks for the advisement on Zinn's other work, Mr. Loftus. I've needed reading material for quite a while now.
~Jeff
Ray,
Swear to god, the way the Sox are managing to win the past week, that ticket I have for the final game of the season against the Twins looks better and better.
Hey - does anyone from the Boston area know how the Red Sox are referred to? Do Bostonians call them simply the Sox?
As for Howard Zinn, I remember reading "The People's History" for high school and found him a refreshing take on US history. I especially remember that his chapter on the labor movement of the last 19th and early 20th centuries was particularly enlightening.
My only complaint was that he seemed, in general to give a bit of short shift when good things did happen. There was a slight tone (vastly outweighed by the good scholarship into more ignored aspects of history) of "other books tell the good things - I'm going to focus on the bad things." I'm certainly not a Pollyana when it comes to history, but I feel they should be trated equally in a work. A great book, nonetheless. Interestingly, consdiering they're of the age group that grew up reading the book in high school and college (like me - around 28 and younger), Ben Affleck and Matt Damon keep shopping around a series of specials based on "A People's History."
Regards,
Joseph
Yes, Jeff, that's the Howard Zinn I'm talking about. _A People's History_ is his most famous (and most revised and reissued), but he's written many other books: _The Zinn Reader: Writings on Disobedience and Democracy_, _Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology_, _Howard Zinn on War_, _Howard Zinn on History_, etc. In the autobio, he mentions writing a hit play about Emma Goldman.
The autobiography is a fairly slim and swift read, but very good. Zinn grew up the poor son of immigrants, worked the early years of the Second World War as a shipbuilder (constructing the battleship USS Iowa, and many years later testifying as an expert defense witness for people who protested the loading of nuclear weapons on that same ship), enlisting in the Air Force and serving as a bombardier on a B-17 over Europe. His first job as a college teacher was at the black women's school in Atlanta, Spelman College, where his students included Alice Walker and Marian Wright Edelman.
Soon he was heavily involved in the civil rights movement, and later in protesting the war in Vietnam. Much of what he felt about labor rights and war were learned as a young man in the shipyards and the Air Force.
I saw him speak just a year ago, and he's still going loud and strong. You can order tapes of a number of his public talks from David Barsamian and Alternative Radio in Boulder.
Rick - you're gonna have to start archiving this puppy monthly at the rate we're going. (Whadda buncha blabbermouths we are!)
Sam - you had me laughing! I always thought it twisted that my parents were amazed I actually found someone who would put up with me and marry me (as my dad told him - but doesn't know that I know - "I wouldn't marry her"!!!!), but then for some reason they wanted me to go out and procreate!
Mr. Loftus: THE Howard Zinn? As in, _A People's History of the United States_ Howard Zinn? My Advanced Placement history class had to read Xeroxed chapters of his _History_, and I by far preferred his consideration of the human factor to our hopelessly sterile textbook. Also, as someone given to embarrassing and inexplicable fits of laughter when discussing certain subjects--Eugene V. Debs, f'rinstance, or the fall of the Nixon Administration--I found it as entertaining as it was enlightening. I knew of a few interviews he'd done with various publications, but I had no idea he was so notable a historian as to publish an autobiography. How was it?
~Jeff
While we're on the subject of children, I'll just keep this thread firmly on topic by relating a little exchange I personally witnessed at the comics exhibit in Lake Oswego.
Mr. Ellison is too classy and firmly-entrenched in his ways to get defensive about his relationship to children, but those of us who have a copy of the live album "On the Road With Ellison, volume 1" (see my review at http://www.islets.net/audiorevs.html; there ARE going to be other volumes, aren't there?) know that he has a great way with them.
A gentleman who came up to chat with HE had a little boy -- maybe 6 or 7? -- in tow. HE immediately turned to the kid and asked:
"Do you have a job?" The boy said simply, "No."
--"Are you married?"
--"No."
--"So you're still just hanging around at your parents'? Is that your plan?"
--"Yes."
--"I like this guy!"
Turned out the kid had the great name of Spencer.
My favorite exchange with a kid occurred with my niece (naturally) when I visited her family in Okinawa last October. We were in the back seat together while her folks were taking us on a long drive, and she -- 2 years and 3 months old -- was making conversation:
--"Do you like Daddies?"
--"Oh sure, I like Daddies. Daddies are cool."
--"Do you like Mommies?"
--"Oh yeah, Mommies are great, I like them too."
Then we got to the heart of the matter: "Do you like Helenas?" Slily, I responded, "Oh yeah, they're good eating." A slight, puzzled pause, then she asked, "Do you like THIS Helena?"
With as calm and casual a voice as I could muster, I said, "Oh, no." (Her mother told me later she was listening in the front seat and thought, oh god, David, don't say that!)
Another pause. Then Helena said, "That was a joke, right?"
YES!!! My niece gets irony!
Years ago someone asked Dick Cavett why he and his wife didn’t have children. He replied: " I like to believe that I am the blessed event of the family."
David: "towing Jehovah" sounds like a really cool story. Thanks for the teaser.
I have no idea about the issue of children as relates to Ellison fans, but it seems to be sizing up that way. I know that until I change my mind I don't want any. And I'm sure everyone I know is happy about that :)
sam
David:
Half.com list Towing Jehovah in both paper and hardback. Best price paper is 4.99 and best price hardback is 5.99.
---Peter
Say, maybe you're onto something: Ellison fans tend to have a higher percentage of childless marriages than the general population.
I have no children and probably never will, though not exactly by firm and conscious choice. I am and was perfectly indifferent; which is to say, if I'd had a partner who wanted children and I felt we could work an arrangement by which we could properly raise them (ideally, I would want NOT to have an 8-to-5 work schedule; my Dad spent a lot of time with me when I was young and I would desire to do no less for any hypothetical kids of my own), then I might have 'em and I'd do my very best with 'em. But my wife doesn't want any.
All that palaver on the subject bores me to tears. Fortunately, I never had family who made an issue of it with me. But on soc.feminism, a newsgroup I regularly visit, there are bristly, defensive discussions by "child-free" advocates that turn me off just as much as the more familiar "be fruitful and multiply" angle.
It's okay, Peg, you only missed one letter: it's "sans les enfants."
Lynn, I wasn't making any personal judgment on Charles de Lint, other than either: 1) odds are his work is unlikely to stand up against Joyce and Orwell and Fowles and Gaddis and Kesey and all the other folks I think belonged on the 20th century's best novel list, or 2) it's too early for any of us to tell, really. Thanks for the positive recommendation, Alex; that's the kind of response that's more likely to make me take a chance on de Lint.
As for Book Lover's snap judgment of me as an "anemic reader," I can only guffaw. I just finished Proust's _Swann's Way_ (for the third time) on Monday, read Howard Zinn's autobiography _You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train_ in two days since, and started Thomas Merton's _Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander_ last night. Just because I don't read much of what YOU do (would that be science fiction, perhaps?) hardly makes me an "anemic reader." Check out my reviews on Amazon.com or AllReaders.com for a look at some real variety.
Last night I read F. Scott Fitzgerald's lovely story "The Offshore Pirate" (probably about the 10th time I've read it aloud to SOMEONE) to an audience of about 35 at the local Borders Books.
I'm currently searching for a copy of James Morrow's _Towing Jehovah_ because somebody I met at the comics exhibition in Lake Oswego last month (a guy who has been to Ellison Wonderland because he asked Harlan if he could reprint "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" in a computer magazine in the mid 1970s) recommended it highly -- something about the Catholic Church trying to cover up God's demise by hiring a broken-down sea captain to tow the two-mile-long corpse to the Arctic to hide it -- along with the rest of the trilogy.
Alex
For the record, I WAS going to throw in Pal's The Time Machine. It took some liberties but many of its elements are quite difinitive. I've always liked it; thoroughly evocative.
Being the purist that I am to both Pal's film and the novel I'm doubtful of the Dreamworks version coming up, as they committed their first blasphemy by changing the setting from London to New York.
Peg (and other interested parties): I have also chosen to be childless. I'm all for finding a nicer word to describe this condition, though..."childless" seems to imply that I'm missing something. I had two big questions for my now-husband before we ever met: 1. Do you smoke? 2. Do you want kids? The worst marriages I've seen involve one partner who wanted kids and one who did not but was talked/pressured/whatever into having them anyway. Mess for the parents, mess for the kids, mess for anyone dealing with any of the involved parties. Good for you for knowing what you want and sticking to it.
I wonder, have you been asked the idiot question I have? "Why'd y'all git married if'n you didn't want chillun?" Perhaps it's a Bible Belt thing. As a NY transplant, I tend to get weirded out by the extremely narrow definition of family down here.
I know this is yesterdays news but...
Of course ALL polls are meaningless bullshit. That is precisely why they deserve to be monkeywrenched. Those of us in Chicago who studied at the knee of Mike Royko were taught this early on.
That being said, my wholehearted apologies go out to Mr. Ellison for any unintended offense.
Alex, (that one, over there. No, over there. The one with the Jay in the middle) if your health problems include a massive case of the itchies... you're right, we don't want to know. Hope you feel better, buddy.
I'd like to interject into this simmering pot of troll stew for a minute. I'm not going to debate the propriety of the question, because I do believe that the only person allowed to take offense at the question has already addressed it. I believe what seemed improper, though, was the asking of the question under dubious circumstances. We pride ourselves a community, and therefore prefer that people be civil and introduce themselves, or at the very least, give us something other than a vague pseudonym with which to address them. Besides smelling bad and living under bridges, trolls tend to cloak themselves in the anonymity that the internet affords them. It is too easy for us to react badly to the cloak of anonymity. It is too easy to become a target while wearing that cloak as well.
Anyhoo, as a survivor of the Great Troll Wars of 98 and 99, let's cool our jets a little. a'ight?
---Peter
Rob,
Without going into a long screed, let me just say that you make some good points about the relativity of whether or not the question was rude. Personally, I believe it was. Harlan doesn't. Fine and dandy, no harm, no foul. However, a couple of points:
1) My being raised Catholic was not related to my considering the question rude. I considered the question rude as being far too personal. My mention of the urgings of the Catholic relatives was an example of such.
2) Perhaps I did go a little overboard in my response to Book Person, but his message simply screamed troll. As it is, I think his second message proves that.
3) Please don't accuse me of being politically correct. A useless phrase anyway, I prefer to be thought of as someone who tries to be polite and thoughtful. I was slightlty less than that ideal in my initial response to Book Person, which I apologize for.
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
Susan - I was planning to send the check today for "Sleepless...", when it occurred to me the postage will be more in my case. How much extra should I include?
Thanks!
Alex is right.
I agree wholeheartedly with Alex.
Everyone should listen to Alex.
(Boy, that's fun!)
In all seriousness, I was saying the same thing, albeit to myself, when the first appeal for votes was posted. I DID go and vote once, but only because I was having a sleepless night/morning/afternoon/night that still hasn't ended (caused by temporary health difficulties into which you do not want me to go) and had little else at all to do.
I honestly didn't even think about myself voting more than once, because that simply would have been wrong--and, seeing how Harlan has ever railed against both dishonesty and the views of the marching morons, would have felt it against the spirit of the creator of the piece.
(but hey; was anyone else surprised that THE TIME MACHINE wasn't included, especially since I saw a trailer for a remake of same when I was forced to sit through A.I.?)
(and the machine in the new one looks just like the George Pal one, at least ...)
DAVID: Never read Charles de Lint? Oh, you're in for a treat. A modern mythist (yes, I made that up) like Gaiman, de Lint is a very good author, as well as being HEAVILY into many causes and charities like the prevention of child abuse and such.
Seek him and his mythical town of Newford out, David; you'll enjoy.
To Book Person and Joseph:
Anytime Harlan steps in no one needs to add anymore. But being the big-mouthed, self-appointed sage that I am (it's what a boring day can turn a guy into) I have an opinion I’d like to express, ANYWAY, in response to the shit-slinging between you and Joe.
You do seem to have a rash faith in the efficacy of corporal punishment as you laid INTO Joe like the Dean of St Paul in the 1890’s. One FAR too rash. However, having said that, I didn’t exactly think your original question about offspring was particularly rude, myself. I just think you both jumped for the whips and clubs way to fast. There’ve been lots of harangues in this site on subjects more substantive than film and tv, so we CAN be a rowdy lot here. But rationality is still a virtue. In the light of Harlan’s spirit this is a forum where one learns humanity, among other things. We're often compelled to do some cogitatin' here. So, mellow, dude, before you turn us into the vultures we’re capable of being.
Joe, perhaps you were raised as a Catholic but that doesn’t mean Bookie here or any of us were. How we perceive tact and what’s "proper" differs with EVERYONE. In our presumptions - and I'm not trying to talk down to you, I'm sure you know this - we all tend to forget that at times. If Bookie's question about having offspring is offensive, maybe that’s for the guy it’s aimed at to decide. If he’d asked ME such a question it wouldn’t have bugged me at all. But I wouldn’t need you to tell him either way. I would be able to speak for myself. I would be the one to decide whether it’s proper or not. And I would be the one to tell him.
This political correctness stuff really does presume we all think alike or SHOULD: while that question seemed rude to you, in Bookie's mind it might have been respectable. In other words, maybe he was being affable in his own mind. He wasn't TRYING to be an asshole (not at THAT point). But you went after him with the notion that he WAS. It's all relative, y'know?
People should use this kind of thing as life's learning experience in expanding the skill of communication. Understand someone's intent first, instead of imposing yours. But most don't do this, thus, relatively few change. This shit is all subjective: we all have a moral compass, NONE of which have needles that are dead on. That's what my last fortune cookie said.
Rick - sounds great! Now, have you patented your idiocy checker that will warn us when we're goin' off the deep end? *giggle*
On being childless - my husband and I have chosen to not have kids either, although I was more adamant than he. I just plain don't like kids. Nothing against those who want 'em or the children themselves, don't wish 'em any harm either. But I don't enjoy being around children at all, even the nice, articulate, well-behaved ones. Besides, my lovable lug is all the kid I'll ever need!
Joseph,I can completely sympathize about familial urgings. It took YEARS before most (not all - there's still a few praying for that miracle) gave up badgering me. I'm certain we've both heard ever argument created as to why we should go forth and procreate!
This does make me curious though. Usually I'm the only one in a group who *chose* to not have children. Yet already several have piped up in the same camp. I wonder how many of the webderland crowd are purposely sans le enfants, and if it's a higher percentage than the normal population.
Cheers, Peg
P.S. I'm sure I got the french phrase wrong, so sue me.
I'm not sure whether I've been picking up a slight "anti-Rand" sentiment some of the previous postings, but I did want to make a comment.
I found "The Fountainhead" to be quite an inspiring book.
Secondly, although somewhat a vehicle for her philosophy, "Atlas Shrugged" was also very enjoyable.
The first half of the novel was a brilliant mystery, in my opinion. I was completely enthralled, even though I thought the last half of the book was disappointing. The characters' speeches were excellent, for the most part. Again, this refers the the first half of the book. The last half was mostly the author lecturing through her characters.
Regardless, even if you don't agree with some or all of the philosophy, these books are excellent reads and very thought provoking.
A book doesn't necessarily have to be obscure to be good, right?
Just got in from out of town - sorry to those of you who sent me e-mails about the SLEEPLESS book.
I'm not much on internet polls - my feeling is the time it takes to promote items for these polls, load ballot boxes, etc. would be much better spent reading a book yourself or recommending a good book to a friend. Or doing something else to, as a certain author has been known to say, serve the common weal.
I'm working on a little addition to the bulletin board that will let you look at the posts since your last entry in FIFO order (instead of the existing LIFO order which is necessary on the present display to avoid making people page to the bottom). A few posts have to cycle through before I can begin testing it. If it works, I may also add a "dummy post" option that would simply mark you as having visited.
Erm....
To all my compatriots,
Swear to god, I wrote that last post as Harlan was posting. Otherwise I would have followed his wishes and not made any comment at all.
Of course, you can imagine that being referred to as Joe Catholic got the ol' blood pumping a little.
Regards,
Joseph
Ah, the trolling continues. As the reindeer trudge annually acroos Scandinavia, so do the trolls come out to feed. But, as entertaining as Book Person's pinprick of an attempt to attack me is, I refrain. There is no reason to bring out a howitzer to deal with a mayfly.
Oh, and for clarification: my blood relatives are Roman Catholic, United States synod. I am a Reform Jew by choice. Not that it makes any difference, but I get annoyed when mayflies don't actually read my posts and then make snap judgements.
To all the rest of you:
I read the second "Book Person" posting only after I'd responded to the first. Though he or she is absolutely correct in pointing out that s/he asked the questions politely, and maybe didn't need to be jumped on with such snippiness, the second posting is 'way over the top in captiousness, and hardly in tone with post #1. Please don't get into it with this individual. The tone here is uniformly much too pleasant and easygoing to long suffer anyone who goes to Howitzers so fast.
To Book Person: I'm sorry my friends jumped you. It was uncalled-for. But I fear the mean streak you demonstrated would make this an unhappy venue for you. Dig; or split.
Respectfully, Harlan Ellison.
Book Person:
Harlan Ellison has no children. Harlan Ellison has never sired a child. Harlan Ellison's second and third wives had sons by THEIR previous marriages, and so, for a year of the second marriage, and 45 days of the third marriage, Harlan Ellison had live-in "sons." Harlan Ellison had considerable affection for the son of wife number two, Billie. His name was Kenny. Harlan Ellison hasn't spoken to Kenn--who ought now to be in his forties--for many years; because they lost touch. Harlan Ellison doesn't even remember the name of the son of wife number three. Harlan Ellison laments that he can remember the name of wife number three, much less her offspring. Harlan Ellison had a vasectomy many many years ago. Harlan Ellison never wanted children. Neither does Susan Ellison. They have too much fun being children themselves, and there ain't no room in the club for no outsiders.
Mr. Ellison hopes this satisfies your curiosity.
Dear poor Joe mayhap you should confine your asinine screeds and HE parroting to an intellectual level which compliments your undeveloped mind. Like re-runs of the Garry Shandling show.
Unfortunately this board has all the tact of a downsized Chicago meatpacker exchanging witticisms at the local bar (i.e. Joe the Catholic).
My question was asked as politely as possible thus I didn't spell out VASECTOMY but subtlety is not one of Joe's strong points.
I've been aware of Croatoan since reading Dance Macabre by Stephen King (a better writer) which was my introduction to Ellison, personally I think Susan in Mindfields would be more apropos to our context.
Your a pretty anemic reader Loftus, spend more time at a bookstore instead of the budget section of Blockbuster.
Most of the haranguing here is over film and t.v. And tiresome name dropping of authors you'll never read by skimming through reference works doesn't count, the lexicographical tortures of cutesy PoMo phonies aquatinted with Quentin Tarantino not withstanding.
This "book lover" recommends the introduction to Strange Wine or Shed of Rebellion, O.K. I rang my charity bell for the cerebrally impoverished for today.
Oh and by the way Joe I hope you never take up your extended Catholic family's advice. The gene pool is already contaminated as it is. See ya.
Polling is meaningless bullshit to me too. To me Planet of the Apes will probably always be the best post-apocalypse movie. There are a couple of mighty interesting early ones from the 50's: Five by Arch Obelor and (hold the laughter till I leave the room) Teenage Caveman by Corman, which starred Robert Vaughn.
I actually like Omega Man, but for all the wrong reasons (or right ones, depending on how you look at it). Its campiness got to me - even though its a travesty of a great novel by Matheson. I mean, the directing is incredibly bad. Guy named Boris Segal did it: in the opening, when the city is supposedly barren of life, we see Heston drive into the foreground and at the last second a car wayyyyyyyyy in the distance passes through; in a close-up on two guys in a 'copter you see a massive reflection in the glass of a tree and mountain sitting stationary in front of it - so you can tell its just propped there; and when the cityscape outside Heston's apartment is supposed to be ablaze you see a few obvious candles propped in a cheesy cardboard window set. By far the best element in the film is Ron Grainer's jazz score (he had done the Prisoner with Patrick McGoohan).
And re: Chicago baseball fans being the most devoted. I can believe that. I've jumped between the Dodgers, Pittsburgh and the SF Giants for many years.
Bet your ass I suggested voting for "Boy" to subvert an obviously skewed list. Hell, I screwed around with the Random list, mostly because I was so ticked at some obvious misses (where was "The October Country?" "Dandelion Wine?" "Strange Wine?" "Deathbird Stories?" "East is West?" "Water Music?"). I ended up being nastily amused that so many of Rand's political polemics ended up being voted in as novels. Of course, it's fascinating to see what was voted in by the public in a more serious mode - "Fahrenheit 451," for instance, which I believe was an obvious choice.
Anyhoo, Harlan, I'm sorry if my attempt to screw with an online poll was annoying.
As for the Book Lover question, let's all agree not to feed the trolls. I'm just going to assume that he's doltish enough not to realize just how insulting his final question was. I know, because my Roman Catholic family prods me every once in a while with "when are you having children?"
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
RE: Charles de Lint
http://www.sfsite.com/lists/cdl.htm
You should read before you scoff, David.
L.
Alex has a good point, of course.
I was one of the hapless few who did fearless battle with the Mongol hordes during the Random House Top 100 survey by having a bunch of friends give me their passwords and single-handedly loading the ballot box for Paul Bowles' _The Sheltering Sky_ and Charles Palliser's _The Quincunx_ and Timothy Findley's _Not Wanted On the Voyage_ and William Gaddis's _The Recognitions_ and a dozen others, all to no avail against the fans of Rand, Heinlein, Hubbard and Charles de Lint (who the hell is that?)
Still, I like to think I fought the good fight, and some of the books I collaborated with others in packing votes for made a good showing (The French Lieutenant's Woman, Absalom, Absalom!, Blood Meridian, At Swim-Two-Birds, Something Wicked This Way Comes).
The Internet is one massive convention hall packed with people -- it's the nearest thing to the anarchy of true democracy we have on the planet -- and in order to get a message out you have to shout loud, use pinpoint tactics, and form alliances.
At least "A Boy and His Dog" is holding steady ahead of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" and "The Postman," now, so maybe a few more people will take an opportunity to check it out. Except for "La Jetee," it's by far the oldest film on the list, so that counts for something in this world where, as I heard Harlan say a month ago, "Nostalgia for some people these days is what they had for BREAKFAST!"
I don't believe Ellison ever had a child of his own. The "son" you saw mentioned was probably the son of his first wife by a previous marriage. Read the introduction to "Croatoan" in _Strange Wine_ to learn a bit more about Ellison and parentage. As for your last question, I cannot say.
Hello. Does Harlan Ellison have any children? I remember reading an essay of his where he mentions a son. I wonder if he regrets not having any kids with Susan. Thanks.
The deranged, slobbering-for-blood mob of you, with your flaming torches and strobismic eyes, are going to hate me for this, but I am solidly in Alex Krislov's camp on this one. All these bullshit "polls" of the 100 Greatest Entertainers of the 20th Century, that put 'N Sync at a high listing and never mention Fibber McGee & Molly or Al Jolson or Joan Sutherland or Eddie Arnold make me wanna whoop me cookies. Don't play into this egregious dishonesty and false idolatry. Please, folks, don't waste your time on this. There's no way on Earth that a constituency that thinks of M.A.S.H. as antedeluvian, and never even heard of LOST HORIZON is going to vote for anything more recent than 12 MONKEYS which was an okay piece of work, but not terribly distinguished. Even if you should logroll A BOY AND HIS DOG into one of the top slots, the win would be hollow, evil and meaningless; it would be, as Alex terms it properly, spinach. (Also, Alex, another good midwestern term for this kind of thing is "succotash.") It means nothing. Hell, even though the director of ROAD WARRIOR more or less chagrinedly admitted to me that he'd, uh, er, "homaged" a lot of the film to A BOY AND HIS DOG, his was an even better movie, and should, by rights, if this were a fair universe, beat all the other entries.
Alex, you have your head on straight.
The rest of you, particularly Ray, I love the lot of you for even thinking of it, but if you want to honor my memory, today give a buck to a street bum so he can buy a bottle or, as H.L. Mencken suggested, "Spit on a Parson, and wink at a fat girl."
Yes, yes, I know how Politically Incorrect it sounds today, as opposed to the '20s, but it's a sweet thought at core.
All my best to you, who remain gentle and goodhearted. Yr. pal, Harlan
Susan - Money order in the mail today. Lord willin' and the creek don't rise (between Burbank and Sherman Oaks), I'm guessing you should have it tomorrow or Wednesday.
Alex - The "Cynical Depths" are in Ohio? Wow. I wonder if I'll have time to swing by on my summer roadtrip. Possible destinations already include: The House On The Rock; Cairo, IL; Beale Street; Graceland; and the World's Largest Ball of Barbed Wire (pr. 'bub wahr' for all you non-Texans).
L.
PS. Did you guys catch the quote of the day on IMDB (when you stopped by to vote for "A Boy and His Dog")?
"Life is like a box of chocoloates, a cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift no one ever asks for. Unreturnable because all you get back is another box of chocolates. So you're stuck with this mostly undefinable whipped mint crap, mindlessly wolfed down when there's nothing else to eat during the game. Sure, once in a while you get a peanut butter cup or an English toffee, but it's gone too soon and the taste is fleeting. In the end you're left with nothing but broken bits of hardened jelly and teeth-shattering nuts, which if you are desperate enough to eat, leaves nothing but useless brown paper wrappers."
~Cigarette Smoking Man, Chris Carter's X-Files
Every party needs a pooper
That's why we invited you
Party pooooper
When I was a tad, we used to sing this to curmudgeons. Well, I'm the party pooper today, folks. This drive to push "A Boy and His Dog" over whatever slovenly mess is currently winning is exactly what I hate about web polls. They're not polls, really. They're block-vote battles. That's why the "Readers poll" reply to the Modern Library list of the 100 best books of the 20th century had Ayn Rand and Frank Herbert as the best books of the century, while Joyce and Faulkner got knocked to the bottom of the list. Blah. I calls it spinach, and I sez to hell with it.
People of Webderland, as we say here in Chicago be sure to vote and vote often. C'mon let's put "A BOY AND HIS DOG" over the top.
We're losing to "The Postman?" Cripes.
Of course, in that leaden mess of a movie, I do find one nice little moment: Tom Petty. Sue me, I like the unassuming nature of his appearance as himself. Of course, I'm old enough to remember when Tom Petty would be hanging out during "The Garry Shandling Show." Not really acting or anything. He'd just be hanging out - maybe have one line in an episode. And yes, he was playing himself.
Looks like "12 Monkeys" has built a commanding lead. I don't mind -- it's a pretty good movie -- although it doesn't really describe a post-apocalyptic environment in any great depth.
I wouldn't say "A Boy and His Dog" deserves to win; it's not that great a movie, after all. (The novella is MUCH better.) But by voting for it, we can bring more attention to the movie and to Ellison, one would hope.
At least we can push "A Boy and His Dog" ahead of "Titan A.E.," "The Postman," "The Omega Man" and "Logan's Run"!
C’mon gang let’s respond to Joseph’s rallying cry and vote for "A Boy and His Dog" in today’s imdb.com movie poll. Right now "Twelve Monkeys" is leading for chrissake.
There's an article in our local paper today on internet plagiarizing. I don't know that it will be of interest or help to the KICK fight, but here is the url, in case -
http://www.pioneerplanet.com/tech/ctk_docs/66871.htm
Maggie
Hey, if anyone wants to be a pain in the butt, go over to imdb.com. Today's poll questions is "What is the best post-apocalyptic movie?" Choice #1, of course, is "A Boy And His Dog." Of course, I voted for it. Let's see how high we can rachet the numbers.
Joseph and Kevin,
I give the White Sox their props, they came into Wrigley Field and proceeded to intimidate the Cubs. They showed the eye of the tiger and the Cubs did not. It makes me wonder if the Cubs have the killer instinct necessary to win their division let alone the NL pennant and World Series. We’ll see what they’re made of later this week when they go to Houston for four games against the Astros.
To the question, why do baseball fans in Chicago seem more fervent than in other cities? Good question, with probably more than one answer.
Perhaps it’s do to the fact both franchises, Cubs and Sox are two of the oldest in major league baseball. In fact the American League was born right here in Chicago. Hence, we have fandom for each team handed down from generation to generation, like an heirloom.
I’ve heard the class argument before, the blue collar White Sox and the yuppie Cubs. Though there maybe some truth to that theory, I for one don’t buy it. If anything I think it’s more a matter of geography than class, where you were brought-up, north side or south side. Your relative proximity to each ballpark.
Harlan: I totally agree Harry Caray was the greatest. Had the good fortune of meeting him a couple of times he was truly a man of the people and all-around class act.
Ray
I've got some catching-up to do. When we say "smoking" are we talking cigarettes, pipes, cigars.....or, we talkin' Bong hits?
Tammy
Mr Ellison
More smokin' adventures, purr-lease! I managed to give up the evil weed six months ago and have had neither sniff nor puff of the foul tubes since. Which isn't to say I wouldn't kill for a fag right now, but hey, I can live with it (put on a stone-and-a-half since I quite - but fat and happy is better than skinny and hacking).
Also, as for Mr. Neil Gaiman - I should have used me noodle and fabricated a close friendship with your good self, given your gracious permission, but I tend to fall into an unseemly stutter when faced with Men of Words. Whadda sap.
Best regards
Jes
Rogue! OK? I MEAN rogue!
Well, actually, I mean "rouge rogue"! You're a couple of rouge rogues! Got it? Makes complete sense n' no one can argue that. Now we're all smart n' happy again.
Whew! When? WHEN will I learn to read what I post b'fore I post it? I needs an editor, man.
I have some items to catch up on!
An exegesis to roll n’ puff:
Re: slow responses to THE FLAMING, SMOKING BUTT OF HARLAN ELLISON. When you have an epic with a big name in the billing, like Bronco Carl, face it - the dam breaks to audience anticipation. Expectations are fast n’ furious. There is more of a quiet tragic intimacy to the story of a feller stokin’ the "coffin nails" - a darker journey that audiences need more time to absorb.
I have never been a smoker. I’ve stoked an occasional joint, but that’s nothing. It’s not an addictive substance (unless one makes the choice), albeit, a carcinogen which is never "good" for anyone. Most indulgences aren’t. But neither marijuana (effects of which I feel nothing) nor hashish (which I do feel - a bit like caffeine) stifle me like cigarettes do, with their tar, nicotine and chemicals. Interestingly, I grew up with asthma problems and second hand smoke (along with pollen, always lurking in the grass waiting to ambush me) often gets me into big trouble wheezing, choking and gagging - reducing me to a genuine Shrek, though not as badly as it used to. Yet, bongs and joints have never bothered me. Lungs like mine seem quite selective. (This is a topic I get angry with Bill Maher on frequently: in his libertarian reasoning, laws should allow us freedom to do what we want as long as it doesn’t do harm to someone else, a principle I agree with; but he leaves out the problem of second hand smoke when he gripes about no smoking rules in restaurants, and so forth. He defines that as "humiliating" the smoker. For his convenience he leaves out the matter of "humiliating" my lungs and nasal membrane. Cigarette smokers do distinct harm to those around them. If one day I succeed in my plans of world conquest and become famous I’m going to find him and take issue on this point).
Turning back to the "Carl" saga for a moment:
I was rolling around in bed the other night, unable to sleep. I began remembering some of the images Harlan roused in my mind, as his words always do. Suddenly, lying there in a dark room, I broke up - all the images coming through in a single synchronous thought: the figure of poor Carl running frantically in the dark streets of Philly, "flailing arms and elbows and knees", his countenance when Harlen beamed about how cool it’d be to play jacks with "the guys", and the two of ‘em standing alone in an alley, along with a white kid, gazing in space in the wake of a gang war. When I was at work the next day I was waiting for quitting time so I could blurt out to a co-worker who wanted to escape the scruples of an annoying supervisor, "Run, boy! Run with the wind!"
If only I could be so lucky as to have been a cabbie whose front bumper would cross the path of two rouge celebrities - totally out of their environment - wandering lost in the city’s empty late-night streets. Harlan, that was some funny surrealistic shit.
I’m a’cravin’ for ‘Sleepless’ to arrive and to experience the words and the account about McQueen:
The encapsulation alone left me imagining the circumstances. With many details obviously left out in a summary we’re left with questions, like, oh, how a couple of guys get themselves trapped in the desert a couple of miles from civilization without sufficient water to keep themselves from fainting. Unless you’re injured I’d think that as long as you have water to continually swig down you SHOULD be able to make a couple of miles. That’s an easy brassy question to ask for someone in the comfort of his domain, of course. I’ve run different versions of the scenario through my mind, imagining both Harlan Ellison and McQueen in a light I never saw them, imagining MYSELF in the same situation, and fueling my zeal to read that book.
(In an unrelated thought, Harlan, I’ll bet you’d become friends with James Coburn too; I can tell he and McQueen were buddies. With his Zen outlook on life and humor he must be a fun person to know).
Now, moving on, Harlan, I DO have something to relate about your ’47 Packard out front Pink’s (I only hope I survive the drive-by shootings after posting this):
See, I had a rather...schizophrenic experience. Seems to me three personalities got involved. (Hey! Fer somebody who can splatter his wife’s brains all over a radiator you’re not far b’hind ). It was after wading through a line miles long to shake your hand (incidentally, we were throngs way out in the hinterlands - like the minions in those Hollywood Jesus movies, which Life of Brian parodied so well - eager to get books signed but unable to hear ONE FLOODY, BUCKIN’ THING! Y’know, it was a small ratio of the crowd that got to hear what was probably a lot of rich, fun stuff you were relating through a great part of the evening, as the raconteur par excellence. We got a lot of VISUAL input, like your struggling with that damned stand the way James Mason took on the great squid in 20,000 Leagues. That’s where I made my entry. But those wise enough, like Lynn, got there at an early hour so they could grab seats within hearing range. The rest of us were all deaf-mutes for an hour or so. The question we’re leading to: WHY didn’t those who set up our little tryst have the brains, sense or whatever to place a MIKE for you to speak in before your arrival? The bozos who didn’t think of that are...well, they’re BOZOS! So THERE! I had the option, of course, to dig through the crowd and place a chair up front. But my plan - my lone, holy mission - was to get to you and say ‘howdy’. The line was the inevitable way to reach you. It’s the others I felt sorry for. Those there specifically for book signings could hear NOTHING. They did some heavy duty waiting as deaf-mutes. It reminded me of the soup lines of the Great Depression. The pitiful and deprived...I wept for them. For God’s sake, these were but miserable destitute orphans - flotsam from washouts like JPL and NASA. That’s why I wasn’t about to tie up the line once you and I spoke, surely attesting to my gallantry and fortitude). I could finally get a dog, so I jumped for...ANOTHER line. Resolute about getting the dog I would endure it. That was when my head turned and, indeed, I notice some beautiful set of wheels, which, seemed to be from early 50’s, late 40’s. Well, some brain center specialists provided me with a transcription of my thoughts from that final hour waiting in line, withered and starved. They say they used some classified mind reading equipment from a Blue Coal patent. The "exchange" went like this:
Hot Diggity! At last I get to devour a dog! DAMN, I’m famished!
Jeezus, look’t this line!
Wow! Wonder who’s car that is. Looks like a late 40’s. What a beauty.
Man, I hope I can hold out in this line!
Look at the white walled tires on that thing. This must be an escort of Harlan’s or a guest actor’s or something.
Dammit, can’t some of these people in line just go home? They’ve no consideration for the undernourished at all.
Y’know, that’s one gorgeous vehicle but why does it have to be parked here, when I could’ve parked here?
SHIT, I’m hungry!
Say, LOOKIT those gorgeous white-walled tires.
Well...by the end of the next decade my corpse may actually make it to the window to order.
Humph! Whose car IS that? Just some affluent, over-indulged Hollerwood superstar getting his way?
Why am I waiting in a line for a damn hot dog when I’m this famished? Where IS my mind?
Man, those wheels are beautiful!
Y’know, I’d like to kick everyone’s butt here for making me wait this long for a dog.
I wonder if this coup is Koenig’s. He came in later and I don’t recall seeing it when I drove by.
Hey! The line moved an inch...I’m gonna make! There’s a god after all! God, I’m gonna get my dog!
Humph! The gall, showin’ off his flashy journals, valves n’ shafts. ‘Cause o’people like him the damn tax system is all upside down.
Gawd! I’m hungry. But I think the line budged another millimeter. Almost there.
You fucker! I could’a parked there!
Hey! Somethin’s happenin! The line, it’s moved! I’m going to get to order! I'm gonna dog! Praise Jeezus! I renounce my atheism! Now I know thine heart is true!
Lemme take another lookit that car.
I better decide what I’m gonna order.
Damn, those white walls are beautiful!
...If someone cruises by my place to drag me away, I suppose I won’t be shocked. But let it be on YOUR conscience.
I’ll hang out later to talk baseball (though I’m mainly a basketball fan), martial arts and something I wanted to address on the subject of the Magic Realists art movement, which was brought up in an earlier posting.
Kevin,
I can't speak for Cleveland (which as a White Sox fan, I am obligated to wish would fall into the earth and disappear), but a lot of the reason for Chicago baseball devotion is class. This does not apply as much anymore (or has been transmuted to a different form), but the White Sox vs. the softball team debate has traditionally been a South Side (blue collar) vs. North Side (white collar) affair. With that debate set up, our knowledge and devotion to baseball is both love of the game and ammunition for the next argument for why the White Sox are the better club.
Does this help at all? Ray, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Regards,
Joseph
Harlan,
I'm in agreement with you about the U.S.P.S. They are efficient, if not always speedy. I'm certain I'll have the package eventually. Thank Susan for her urgings on my behalf. I'm on my way over to clean your radiator.
In regards to SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, The additional offer to KICK was for you to sign the book however you wished. Said offer was to show consideration for the time taken out of your schedule to do so. My moment of self deprecation was meant as jest.
A quick word to the "Chicago Contingent."
I've read your recent postings about baseball and I ask you this;
Why are the fans in cities like Chicago and Cleveland the best in sports? They seem to have a passion (bordering on religious fervor) for their clubs that you don't see anywhere else.
Any thoughts?
Regards,
K.
SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED:
Confirmed for Peg. We have two trade paperbacks left.
The two expensive lettered/signed copies remain unsold.
All best, Susan
Geez, go away for a couple of days and the place goes beserk!
Harlan - oh yes, please, installment 2! (technically, I'm not late since I just caught up on the board.....)
Susan - sign me up for a tpb of "Sleepless...", member # M268.
Cookie, Alex - do it, do it now, and don't look back. Mom smoked for years (and I had asthma when I was young!). She didn't quit until forced - a blockage in her cartoid (sp?) artery caused a major blood pressure problem.
All - can I just say, not to be kissin' up or nuthin, but after 2 days with my parents, whining and complaining about darn near everything, determined (it seemed) to not enjoy themselves visiting us and/or Edinburgh, that it was such a wonderful respite to come to the board and read all the entertaining, thoughtful, and intelligent posts! My parents drive me nuts in a way only parents can (but I have witnesses - they drove my husband *and* his brother nuts too) - God knows I love 'em but I have a hard time living with 'em - so I REALLY REALLY needed this break.
Love and Cheers,
Peg
(Whimper) (Gasp) (Snuffle)
Ah is rejoovenasent an' quietly humble'n'proud (as my mentor Pogo Possum would sashay it) you good woodland folk has clangered foah my li'l tale of choke wheeze gasp echhhh ptooey travails in LungFuckLand.
Later today, maybe tomorrow, if'n the crick don't rise.
Gawdluv y'all. Yr. faithful mendicant, Harlan
SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED:
Confirmed for Colleen (M837)
Thanks--Susan
Oh geeze. Now I feel like a heel -- a heel that's stepped down into something warm and brown and squishy . . . and I'm marching behind the horses.
Harlan, please understand that the personalization request I sent with my check was meant as a joke and was not to be taken seriously. I have no wish to become one of those masochists who try and get you to inflict them with autograph-abuse. You'll see when my check arrives. Sometimes my attempts to be funny override my good sense.
---Peter Padraic O'Sullivan
Alejandro,
God, you're right. If I see one more hypocritical self-serving promo on WGN for the Bozo send-off tonight, I'm gonna puke. What amazes me is that they actually persuaded Bozo to promote the damn thing on WGN Morning News this week. Considering they fired his ass, I would have told them to shove it.
At least the folks putting out Mike Royko collections are providing a public service in getting people to read his brilliant columns. This Bozo send-off is simply a kick in the blue pants.
Regards,
Joseph
Harlan: Can I say, in regards to your adventures fighting the evil Lord Tobacco…me, too? I know, rather belatedly and playing second fiddle, jumping in the bandwagon and all that jazz…
Joseph: If you are disgusted at the way Papa Tribune is squeezing good old Harry for every single drop'a money he is worth, more disgusting still is the way they are now trying to squeeze Bozo for every single drop'a money he is worth after they cancelled his show. Sun-Times media columnist wrote a great and very angry opinion piece on the matter yesterday. I don't know if you read it, but if you haven't go to the Sun-Times website. It will be there for another five days (and for the good folks who don't know what I am talking about, the URL is www.suntimes.com.)
HARLAN: Me & "the Dude" are adding our cyberspace voices to the all the others (Joseph, Charlie, Cookie, Justin, Alex, and others) clamoring for the second half of your Smoking story -- no, Dude, it's not THAT kind of smoking story. The popcorn's being "nuked." We'll be back when it's done.
Susan, I would like to reserve a copy of the tp ed. of Sleepless Nights-a friggin termite drilled some holes through my well-thumbed copy. My HERC membership is #837
DTS: Don't know if you saw earlier message, but email the address and I'll send the article to you.
Harlan,
Actually, I had no real problem with Harry Carey. What tees me off these days is the cult of Harry that has sprung up (the celebrity singings of "Take Me Out To The Ballgame," the 20 billion Harry Carey icons around the park). The worst is the incredibly disturbing Harry Carey statue at the corner of Addison and Sheffield. If you want to see an image of Harry Carey walking through a hell-field of human heads, take a look at this URL and look at the photo in the upper left:
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/wrigle/
Can you believe that I live two blocks from that?
Harlan, I join the choir with the other folks inveigling you to complete the smoking story! I'm curious as to who/what struck you to quit smoking as there was one event that caused me to become a vegetarian back in 1985 when I was living in Firenze, Italia. I haven't looked back since.
Oh, trust, me man. I fear I'm about as rabid for ugly tobacco stories as one can get before you have to get the dreaded human rabies shots in the gut (I'm a country girl, Mr. Ellison. One of the students I taught in public school got rabies from his tame pet 'coon. He was smilin' all the way to his fate. What else you gonna do but smile back and hope he knows bettuh next time??
I personally need your tale of tobacco triumph, but I can dig it if the rest of the audience is ----Hhhhhmphyawwwn.
I'm justhappy to be breathin', much less typin' and hobnobbin' with one of the quickest "types" of my millenium.
I thank my teachers who taught me enough command of this language to scream and to sing (same thing).
YEAH!
Correction: E-X-P-L-A-N-A-T-I-O-N
"Writing" major, my ass. Oh, the howling shame of it all.
J
What could possibly posess a human being to willfully suck down lungfuls of smoke, I'll never know. SMOKE, fer chrissakes! Perhaps part two of Harlan's(eagerly awaited, Harlan, it goes without saying) reminiscence will help me understand, but thus far no one has given me a satisfactory explaination. I mean...icky poo. Really. Good luck to all who are trying to quit, and continued success to those who already have!
Justin "never tried it, never wanted to try it, and the rest of y'all are outta yer goddamn minds" Sluyter
Harlan~
I made the mistake of seeing the Lion King (Broadway show here in LA) a mere seven days after I had seen «O». I'm sure that, had I not had my mind turned inside out by the Cirque du Soleil so recently, I would have been thoroughly amazed and entertained. As it was, the experience was anticlimactic at best
So you'll forgive me if I didn't go to the booksigning that Neil had at Vroman's in Pasadena two days after the signing at Pink's. I didn't think he'd call me by name out of the crowd and give me a big hug. However, next time he's in town, I'll make sure to buy him a round.
Yours in language,
Lynn
Whoa, Harlan! I'm desperate to see part two of the smoking opus! I never made it to four packs a day, but I did incinerate three daily--and they were those absurd "More" cigarettes that went on forever. I was living in Kentucky at the time, and even at 23 cents a pack, my means were limited. Continue the tale, sir! Pray, do!
And before anyone asks, I quit after a quarter century, because as the primary caregiver in this household, I couldn't bring myself to do to my daughter's little pink lungs what I'd already done to my grey, tarry sacks.
--alex
Susan, er, hate to say this, but I had already mailed the order. I've been spending days with a sick relative in hospital, and I wanted to be sure not to forget to send it. You'll probably have the check by tomorrow morning, and I made it out for the higher amount before I saw your message. Listen, think of it as dues for HERC. I've been on the media list up 'till now anyway.
--Abashed, Alex
Hey, Finn, watch what'chu say about Harry Caray. He was one of the few good things for me when I lived my two (non-consecutive) years in Chicago. You can say anything you want about that Chip that fell too far from the family tree, but respect the old man or I'll shag a fungo up yo' butt!
McElroy: no, I will not personalize your book in that stupid way. I'm always crossing paths at signings or autograph parties with people who want me to write obscure, self-referential, injoke (and usually rude) shit in their books that will come back to bite my fundament in later times. So I'll sign it with friendship, or thanks, or best wishes, or thank your mother for the chicken soup, but I refuse to memorialize your moment of self-abuse.
Oh, and Susan wants to send you another signed EDGEWORKS. I told her no. (Then when she began to whimper in your behalf, I slapped her. Hard. She fell and struck her head on the radiator. Blood everywhere. Brains on the wallpaper. I tried to bring her back; I shook her, gawd knows I tried, but she was dead. Dead, I tell you! Dead! And now I'm on the run, on the lam. They'll never take me alive, McElroy!!!) The Sherman Oaks post office, every year, is either number one or number two in the country, among all post offices in efficiency, speed and accuracy of delivery. (Which is not to say that the Florida and North Carolina rusticalities wherein you then and now dwelt are anywhere even glancingly competent.) But I am convinced you'll get it. I believe that to my soul. Keep us informed. If, by the time your grandchildren matriculate, you haven't gotten it, I will entertain Susan's whimpering pleas. Otherwise, you goon, just sit tight and wait.
You guys who saw Neil when he was in your environs missed a great opportunity. All you had to say to him was, "I'm a pal of YOUR pal, Harlan. Mind if I tag along when you go out to get snockered after the signing?" He'd have said, hell yes come along any friend of my mate Harlan is a pal o' mine. But, alas, you didn't.
Chapter 2 of THE FLAMING, SMOKING BUTT OF HARLAN ELLISON is on the way. But, I get the feeling you're all not as rabid to read this one as you were the Sagan story, although this one has alcoholics and shady ladies and the hushed marble library of the man who was the financial guardian of Citizen Kane in it. Ah, me. If only there was a hue, a cry, a hewncry for my meager tales...
Wistfully, The Gentle Storyteller of the Glen
SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED:
Confirmed for Peter Janes.
Thanks--Susan
SUSAN: By my count, you and Mr. E. still have a few of the "Sleepless Nights..." tpbs left (unless they've gone away off-board). If that's so, I respectfully request a layaway. HERC M210, if Rick hasn't already forwarded my (slightly too late) e-mail.
Thank you (that's plural) kindly!
Peter J.
Hey Joseph
Funny - Gaiman drew an angel in my copy... which I mistook for a quaint Morpheus, until he added a halo! (it was the hair, you see. All floppy and unkempt.)
He also wrote "Dream desperately" in my American Gods. Wise words.
Speaking of American Gods - it got in the way of my reading 'Red Badge of Courage'. Soon...
Best,
Jes
Jes,
At the appearance by Mr. Gaiman in Chicago, the man in front of me had an un-bound copy of "Angels and Visitations," which according to Gaiman was one of six from the end of the print run. Very, very cool; Gaiman did a wonderful little freehand Sandman on the cover page.
Ray,
Sox win! Sox win! Let's do it again tomorrow!
Hi all,
Wow - this cosy corner of the internet seems toget busier every time I check in. It feels like an exclusive club - but there's also a sort of warm, fuzzy feeling too. Homely, I think.
Anyhoo, today I popped down the road to Bristol and attended a signing by the magical Neil Gaiman; standing in line, various books, journals and publications clutched to my chest, I swear my heart raced.
Graciously, he signed two copies of the superlative American Gods for me (one for a friend, on the occasion of his birthday - he even drew a balloon, bless his soul), plus my prized issue 27 of Hellblazer ("Hold Me", which Mr. Gaiman described, fondly, as one of his favourite stories) and a hardcover printing of Angels and Visitations, which I've been given to understand is rather rare. I purchased it only last year, at the Virgin Megastore/HMV (I forget which) situated at one end of Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles.
Well, Mr. Gaiman was a complete gentleman, and unfailingly polite in the face of endless books-to-be-signed. And my day has been a little sunnier for meeting him.
Best regards to all,
Jes
Ps. I take a small amount of selfish smug satisfaction in owning a first-edition copy of 'Sleepless Nights...' - it has a gorgeous Rennie Mackintosh-esque blue/black/gold cover and is, to paraphrase our gracious host, a scintillant read.
Thanks for the great laugh about the Witches in "Macbeth," Earl.
And all this time I thought the line was from Hamlet's speech ... you know the one.
Remember this one?
"Romeo, oh Romeo, where's the beef, Romeo?"
Harlan,
Rorschach checked all mail drops. No package, only smells of filthy city and crime all around. Will break fingers of the guilty until package is discovered..hrmm.
Regards,
K.
Ray,
Your second interpretation is exactly right. I was referring to Chip Carey. I couldn't agree with your view on Joe Carter more. Of course, I'm obligated to despise Joe Carter, due to his plaoyff home run against the White Sox when he was with the Blue Jays in 1993. Damn Carter. Grrrrrr.
Joseph,
What a dope I am, I just got what you meant by "Too bad he's stuck with Mr. No Personality". You of course weren't refering to Hundley himself but to Chip Caray. Doh! You couldn't be more right. I'll just say goodnight now.
Ray
Joseph,
Gotta gently disagree that Randy Hundley has no personality. He's got that good ole boy country charm. Sorta like Dizzy Dean, but without the dizz. He's not a rah, rah guy. He tells it like it is and shoots straight from the hip. Joe Carter on the other hand, whom Hundley is sitting in for while he vacations for three weeks touring Europe in the middle of the basball season what's up with THAT, is all "personality" with his phony enthusiasm and no insight.
Ray
Ray,
My father's a South Sider by birth, and I was the only one lucky enough to be elevated to the elite of sports fandom, while the rest of my family will burn in hell for worshipping at the feet of the false prophet Caray (speaking of having fun).
Hundley does do some damn nice analysis. Too bad he's stuck with Mr. No Personality.
Joseph,
Gotta ask, how the heck did ya become a Sox fan if your Mom and siblings are fans of the Cub? Also, when I said most Cub fans are drunken louts...was just havin' fun pardner. Speaking of crusty old guys who KNOW the game. If you're near the glass teat tune-in
WGN and check-out Randy Hundley doing color analysis. The Rebel is terrific.
Ray
Ray,
Actually, most Cub fans, in my opinion, are good students of the game who know their history and are devoted fans (for instance, my mother and my siblings). Unfortunately, a lot of the time these aren't the folks going to the game. The best Cub fans at the game are when you're sitting up in the right field stands (at the Addison & Sheffield corner), out of the sunlight, and you have the old and crusty guys who know more about baseball in their little thumb than I ever will. I love sitting and chatting with those guys about the old days.
Whenever the Chicago contigent meets, you and I can have a beer and come up with new nasty names for Gene Lamont.
Joseph,
Agree, it was a well pitched game on both sides, until the eighth. Maybe Ed Lynch wasn't so dumb after all, trading Garland for Karchner. Nah. Actually, drunken louts is an accurate description of most Cub fans. No offense taken.
Ray
Ray,
That was actually a smart move. After three days off, Manuel had his players go through a whole workout at Comisky, rather than only 40 minutes while they're being insulted by drunken louts (I'm not talking about Cub fans - I'm referring to the singles bar in the outfield bleachers). And hey, it's not like they rode in from out of town. It's only 8 miles.
Also, Kip Wells obviously had no problem with warming up at Comiskey. I think we can both agree that the loss was not his fault. If I was him, I'd be having words with Garland for ruining a perfectly fine 1 run performance by Wells.
Joseph,
What about Jerry Manuel's asinine decision to have the whole White Sox team take BP at Comiskey instead of at Wrigley. Then have all the Sox players get on a bus together in full uniform, like a bunch of Little Leaguers, for the ride to Wrigley Field (aka: The Tavern on the Green). Then after the game, same thing, back to Comiskey. Only this time in dirty, stinky uniforms. Manuel wouldn't even let his starting pitcher get to Wrigley ahead of the team to warm-up and prepare for the game. How dumb is all that?
Ray
Ray,
Way I see it, we made a few mistakes:
A) Not firing Garland years ago.
B) Not putting in Foulke.
C) Pitching around the lead-off batter when there are already two men on base in a 1-1 ballgame. What the $!@$!@# was that?
Think the Brewers would take Garland? We already snookered them into taking Navarro, so who knows.
Personally, I am officially saying that the season is pretty much over for the White Sox. Ah, well. At least it's pretty obvious that the World Series champ this year will be from the AL.
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph,
Was that onehelluva ballgame yesterday, or what. Ricky Gutierrez grand-slam homerun in the bottom of the eighth, Cubs win. Gotta love it. OOPS...sorry.
Long-Suffering Cub Fan Ray
Susan,
Just put my check for Sleepless Nights in the mail. Thanks, again.
Ray
Alejandro, Joseph - "transmogrified into Bill?" I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
BTW - HimsElf is also quoted in "Advice to Writers - A Compendium of Quotes, Anecdotes, and Writerly Wisdom From a Dazzling Array of Literary Lights" compiled & edited by Jon Winokur (Pantheon Books)
Harlan,
I apologize, profusely. In the course of putting out a "fire" at the workplace, I did not get a chance to answer your query. I have a relative in Florida who is checking my mail there for the package. I have not received said item here in North Carolina. I will know for certain by tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.
In answer to Susan's previous posting, Yes I'm forwarding a check for a trade paperback of Sleepless Nights. I'll throw in another $20 for the KICK if you sign it to "that snot-nosed...etc " or whatever it was you called me in your last posting.
Regards,
K.
David,
Thanks for your suggestions. During my leisurely search I’ve checked various dictionaries, including the OED, with no luck. Maybe as you say it is unlikely that I will find the FIRST usage of the phrase “came the dawn” in a particular context, but I think I might find the source that POPULARIZED it, the way that (I think) Owen Wister popularized “Smile when you call me that” in his novel The Virginian (and in the movie versions), even if he didn’t originate the phrase. But Harlan is probably right when he says that everything comes from the Bible or Shakespeare. I was doubtful at first but when I decided to challenge his assertion with a little research I was amazed to discover the origin of a popular current catch phrase right in the beginning of Macbeth:
First Witch: When shall we three meet again/In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Second Witch: When the hurlyburly’s done,/When the battle’s lost and won.
Third Witch: Is that your final answer?
Susan, the check for SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, is quite literally, in the mail. I'm going to have to hold off on HERC, though, until September. Thanks.
---Peter
SLEEPLESS NIGHTS:
CONFIRMED FOR:
JUSTIN
XANADU
Many Thanks--
Susan Ellison
Susan,
If you would be so gracious as to reserve a tradepaper copy for me, I would be most appreciative. But, I will not be able to send a check out for a week, possibly two (the impending Saturday nuptials of my baby bro are sopping up my immediate, unattached liquid funds). If the demand exceeds your available stock, I will defer to those who can pay immediately. My HERC number is M941 - this will provide you with my secret, real-world identity.
Thank you, in advance.
Bernie (aka Xanadu)
p.s. I cannot recommend PAPILLON enough. Helluva film!
SLEEPLESS NIGHTS ON THE PROCRUSTEAN BED. They're going fast! Damn and blast. Alrighty, here's what I'm-a-gonna do- I have about five days to sell the stock options AOL gave me, before they expire. They are pathetic, writhing, worthless little things. (AOL promised me they would make me a million bucks, but *gasp shock horror* they done LIED!) At most I'll get maybe eighty bucks out of all my vested options (most of them are under water). No matter how it turns out, any money I get is just dirty rotten filthy slime-covered money and I don't want it. So, if you can set aside a paperback of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS for me, I will sell my options tomorrow morning, and send you all the money I get from them. It won't be much, but it will cover the cost of the paperback, and the rest you can put into KICK. Use AOL's own cash against them.
Thank you in advance, Susan.
J
Sheessh. Sorry about that, Alejandro.
Susan and Harlan,
There's a good article in today's Chicago Tribune today about yesterday's decision in US District Court affirming that book publishing rights exclude the Internet. I thought it mightbe useful in the court case. Assuming that this did not show up in the LA papers, would you care for me to clip this out and send it to you?
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
I transmogrified myself into Bill. Should have said Ray. Geez, I am really losing it, ain't I?
Joseph:
I have been transmogrified…into Bill. But you know, all of us Chicagoans sound and look alike. Which means that we really need to do that gettogether sometime soon (or what the good folks at the Warrebn Ellis Forum would call a drinkup). The Chicago contingent of the webderlanders have all become unto one and unto the one they hold tribute.
It's late in the day, have been writing non-stop all day, will be writing non-stop all night and I am plain getting dizzy with my own verbiage. Time to get a drink: a good cold bottle on Berghoff's amber ale…ahhhhhhhhhhhh
Ray: Re:Locus, I contacted them yesterday as I subscribe and haven't rec'd my issue yet. Response was not to worry, that there was a slight delay due to the 4th of July holiday.
Alejandro,
Haven't seen it myself yet. I'll eyeball and get back to ya.
On singers: used to hang out at this coffee house called The Colloquy. One of the regular performers was a guitarist/singer name of Don Skelton. In the middle of a set, he grabbed the mike with one hand, lit a cigarette with t'other and said, "'Scuse me, gotta catch my breath for a second." Then he took a drag, stared at the exhaled smoke, and said with raised eyebrows, "Oh, wow, I can't believe just I did that," and shook his head as he smiled and snuffed it out.
On Harlan's comment "Can anyone help us or give us their thoughts on any additional things we should be doing ?"
Announcer: Would you like to hear something to change the pace of your day? Instead of teevee, the radio, or elevator music, try 1-900-WBDRLND! It's only 95 cents a minute. To hear today's events, press one. To hear some of your favorite quotes, press two. To hear some of the most intelligent slam-dunk-in-your-face freshest barbs & tirades, press three. 1-900-WBDRLND! Only 95 cents a minute, no parental advisory, intelligent comments may be hazardous only to members of the Right-Wing Ignorant Tight-Ass Club.
Anyone know if the July issue of Locus (with our favorite coverguy) has hit the newstands yet? Cuz I've yet to see any.
Howzabout you Joseph?
On the lighter side of the news:
No Emmy nominations for "Buffy: The Vamprie Slayer"? Talk about a kick in the teeth for everyone who works there. Seems to me that they could have given one of those writing nominations for "The Sopranos" to Joss Whedon for the episode titled "The Body."
Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
Re: Sleepless Nights:
Confirmation for:
Alex Jay Berman
Charlie Samaha
Scot (scotlockman)
Rob (robvangessel) [The price is $35.00-I'll enclose a receipt with the book)
All best--Susan
Somebody asked me last night about how many singers there are who smoke. My answer: "Too many of 'em."
I've been smoking since I was 18. I did it initially to rebel (bummed a Marlboro red from one of the badboys at the bus stop). I was sick of being a good wittle girl. Besides, members of my extended family smoked (including my favorite, divorced aunt. My father would always scream that I was "Just like your Aunt Maxine!" "Good," thought I).
It didn't start to bother my singing voice until the past couple of years. I've had a lot of upper respiratory illness and last year, did injury to my voice singing and smoking through a bad case of laryngitis (for the record, I'm told I sounded great that night, but I nearly traded my livliehood for a four-bit gig in a one-horse town).
Anyway, I'm sick of the lung butter, the coughing, the stench, etc. I thought I could do it last night, but this cookie crumbled. I'm gonna have to make a good plan and stick to it. I think that I'm going to have to give up drinkin' as well. Too strong a connection between booze and tobacco.
Despite all that: I've always been able to sing no matter what the circumstances. Somedays I'm in better voice than others, but I'm always able to make music. Of course, I'm a jazz singer so I don't have to sing what's on the paper and I can put the song in any key I like!
Still, I'd like to have my good old voice back. It's funny, but even 24 hours of not smoking restore the extreme high-end of my range (which I have little need for in saloons but comes in handy on the legit stage). It just gets easier to sing. I don't understand why that isn't incentive enough just to have done with it. Basta!
Susan:
I would also like to mail in a check for a copy of 'Sleepless'. Maybe you could e-mail me a confirmation that the book is still available and to use as a receipt. Right now I'm on a very lean budget so I'll go after the cheapest copy available. $25.00, isn't it?
Susan:
I would also like to mail in a check for a copy of 'Sleepless'. Maybe you could e-mail me a confirmation that the book is still available and to use as a receipt. Right now I'm on a very lean budget so I'll go after the cheapest copy available. $25.00, isn't it?
Rick asked about singers and various ingestions. Are you saying the physical activity of eating affected your ability to sing, Rick, or just that you were too nervous to take anything down before a gig?
I never had a problem with eating before singing -- I mean, as long as I didn't gorge myself to the point of leaving no more room in my viscera for the lungs to expand! One time a bass in my choir sniffed at some of the rest of us for eating chocolate during a break in rehearsal ... but he was a smoker!
As for your question to the other smoking singers, I expect the body can adapt to all sorts of abuse. I've only been involved with one smoker. The first time I kissed her, I had a quasi-allergic reaction; a mass of phlegm rolled up into my throat (in self-defense, I think). But after that I didn't really notice. She was worth the trouble.
Smoking can do some wonderful (or at least very interesting) things to the voice, as fans of Marianne Faithfull and other puffing vocalists know.
(This is great: a whole three or four days without a single mention of furry -- oops!)
Rick asked about singers and various ingestions. Are you saying the physical activity of eating affected your ability to sing, Rick, or just that you were too nervous to take anything down before a gig?
I never had a problem with eating before singing -- I mean, as long as I didn't gorge myself to the point of leaving no more room in my viscera for the lungs to expand! One time a bass in my choir sniffed at some of the rest of us for eating chocolate during a break in rehearsal ... but he was a smoker!
As for your question to the other smoking singers, I expect the body can adapt to all sorts of abuse. I've only been involved with one smoker. The first time I kissed her, I had a quasi-allergic reaction; a mass of phlegm rolled up into my throat (in self-defense, I think). But after that I didn't really notice. She was worth the trouble.
Smoking can do some wonderful (or at least very interesting) things to the voice, as fans of Marianne Faithfull and other puffing vocalists know.
(This is great: a whole three or four days without a single mention of furry -- oops!)
David - the writing article sounds like a nice addition. I in fact have 3 fine essays of HE's on writing. Problem is, about the time I was going to put them up they were also published, and Harlan felt it wouldn't be cricket to have them available for free at the same time - a sentiment I agreed with.
When the requisite time has passed, I've be overjoyed to have someone take these three (and the piece you mention, should it be cleared) and set them into HTML.
Hm. Should I be sorry I gave my Aunt Beverly my copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS? She was moved to swap me her copy of SHATTERDAY...good luck kicking, folks.
ON SMOKING: I am at a loss as to how you singers smoke. I've done a few turns (musicals, reviews, paid singer at a church, etc) and I can't even EAT for 2 hours before a performance. I'm limited to orange juice and water and a few neutral foods like green beans. And I fear the smoky room like the black plague.
Does your system just learn to accomodate for you pouring smoke down your throat and into your lungs after a while? Or do you just compensate?
SUSAN: If you have them left, I'd like to confirm the TPB order and will send a check this weekend.
ALL: Thanks for the encouragement; it may just make it easier to no longer be Touched by a Carcinoma Angel ...
COOKIE: Odd that the two committed quitters should be singers, eh? Well, at least when the cravings hit at home, I'll be able to pick up my newly-acquired guitar and ply my newly- and barely-learned skills at same ...
Susan: Can you also reserve a trade paperback for me? Money will follow as soon as I receive confirmation. Thanks!
Hey Susan: Can you reserve a tp for me? Thanks.
Hi all -
Alex K - Medea: Harlan's World? I have a copy and it's really a *lot* of fun. Every page.
Lynn - cancer is awful, but in some ways I think emphysema is worse. Dying by suffocating is AWFUL. It happened to my uncle and right after he died the tobacco CEOs testified before Congress and stated that tobacco was not addictive. I *really* wanted to teach them all the addictive nature of life support. . .
Cookie and Alex - you have nothing to lose except the drain on your finances, that nasty smell, the yellow hair, nails, skin and teeth and the destruction of your voice. Still doesn't make it easy. Good luck - and hey, you can always post to the board when those terrible cravings hit!
Maggie
Geez, my apologies, folks: Working on faulty memory, I got nearly every detail wrong about the book that contains the Ellison essay on being a writer which I talked about the other day.
It's called _On Being a Writer_, edited by Bill Strickland, and the contents are from "Writer's Digest" magazine. The collection is copyright 1989 by Writer's Digest Books, Cincinnati, Ohio. It's "out of print--limited availability" according to Amazon, naturally. Keep an eye out for it; the Bradbury interview is dynamite, and I reread the Vonnegut, Mailer, and Heller last night. Decent. Others interviewed include Steinbeck, Faulkner, Capote, Michener, Jean Auel, Erica Jong, Marsha Norman, Joseph Wambaugh, Red Smith, Rod Serling, Medeleine L'Engle, Jay McInerney, James Dickey, Allen Ginsberg, Nikki Giovanni, Irving Stone, William Saroyan, etc.
It strikes me that the Ellison piece might be just the thing for the "I Write" section of Webderland. I'll be happy to typeset and email the text to Rick if he can get the proper permissions and that's copacetic with Harlan.
Earl Wells: I've encountered the phrase in the present tense, too: someone will say "comes the dawn" to indicate "oh, NOW I get it!" It has a 1940s feel to it. Recommend you check dictionaries of slang -- the Oxford English Dictionary might have something on it, too -- under "dawn." Maybe I can get to copies of same at the library in a few days. (I will never forget the day I was looking up connotations and usages of the simple word "green" and ran across the Renaissance euphemism "give her a green gown"....)
At the same time, I wouldn't entertain the expectation that you are going to nail down the precise "book, magazine, newspaper, play, movie, song, speech, radio show, comic strip, vaudeville act, billboard, or bubblegum card" where it first appeared. Catchy phrases tend to be common oral coin long before they get captured by writers, various ones of whom may "suddenly" capture the line at roughly the same time.
David Loftus
(I suppose it would be crass of me to point out that, having stirred up all this interest in the Steve McQueen essay and thereby engineering the near-instant sale of multiple copies of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, I deserve recognition as an ad hoc Ellison publicist and should receive a cut of the profits. Yes, that would be churlish and acquisitive. Best not to mention it at all....)
To One And All:
Lynn--your tpb has been reserved.
John Q--your tpb has been reserved.
Alex--your signed/numbered has been reserved. And demonstrating my canny money skills, you'll pay $250.00 and not a penny more.
Peter--HERC membership is $10.00 for a new membership or a one year renewal or $16.00 for a two year renewal. Checks to: The Harlan Ellison Recording Collection, Post Office Box 55548, Sherman Oaks, CA 91413.
All best--Susan
Kerry,
I spoke to Morpheus yesterday about the Limited Edition of TEH. They told me they're waiting to recieve the slipcases, and that the orders should go out sometime next week. Have no fear, our copies are not MIA.
Susan:
Thanks for holding me a copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS. The trade paperback sounds great. The cheque will be on the way next payday.
Harlan:
It's "lying around," not "laying around." Right. I should have remembered that from, I think it was, the '83 edition of IHNM&IMS? I guess I'm a slow learner; that ain't no lie. But at least I'm laying the foundation (I think).
Humbly,
Phillip Cairns
Susan,
I am confirming my reservation for the trade paperback of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS for $35 ppd.
My check will be in the mail first thing tomorrow morning. Thanks ever so much to you and to Harlan.
Ray
Susan,
I'd be interested in a SLEEPLESS NIGHTS TPB for $35 ppd.
John Q. - HERC # M965
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone has any information on the release date of the new "The Essential Ellison" Limited Edition. Has anyone received it? From my last email to Morpheus the release seems to be overdue, and while I don’t mind waiting for my order, I’m concerned that it hasn’t gone missing in the mail to Australia.
Kerry
WARNING: DO NOT CONSUME FOOD OR DRINK DURING THE READING OF THE FOLLOWING URL. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/english/2001.htm
Winners of this year's Bulwer-Lytton contest, aka the "It was a dark and stormy night" bad fiction contest.
L.
Susan~
Do please reserve me a trade paperback. Funds en route.
Thanks muchly,
L.
Here is a quick question, for Susan, or anyone in the know. Is HERC membership still $8? If so, and this is definitely for Susan, or Harlan, is it all right if I sent this with the check for Sleepless Nights?
---Peter
Susan,
I'm more than willing to send $250 for #11, but the fact that this is a good cause forces me to note that the ones on the open market go for as much as $288. Given that, I'd like to offer the higher amount.
--alex
Susan -
Personally, I don't think you'd be untoward to ask $750 for the signed and lettered copies. After all, we're talking a print run of 26 here, right? Seems to me that they're a rare enough bird that a premium price (for a good cause, which makes it the harder to bear that I cannot afford it) is not unreasonable for the lettered volumes.
Regards,
Joseph J. Finn
P.S. Don't forget, I need full name and address with your order.
To Alex & Cookie: Everytime youz guys get a cancer stick craving, pull out the money for a pack of cigarettes and put that money in a cookie jar-you'll be amazed at how much dough piles up. Then take all your savings & treat yourselves to something really fine. Good luck!(Strategy passed to you via a librarian reading a tobacco addict's note to Ann Landers)
Here's what I've found out so far--pricewise--about SLEEPLESS NIGHTS copies available. (And I really truly urge all or any of you to check around the antiquarian websites yourselves because, frankly, my jaw dropped when I learned what these were going for.)
Trade paperbacks, 1st editions, in varying degrees of condition, unsigned, are selling for $25 to $49.90 a copy.
We're asking (ahem): $30 personally signed, plus $5 shipping & handling. Total $35, sort of in-between highs and lows. What do you think, okay?
Numbered and signed hardcovers, in varying states of condition, are listed from lowest of $200 to $417.
We're asking: $250 with shipping inclusive. Signed by Marty Clark and Harlan, of course, but personalized at your request.
We have one copy, #11.
Now we get to the tough ones...
We have two signed and LETTERED 1st edition hardcovers (of a limited 26). Letters I and K. Already signed by Harlan and Marty, but ready to be personalized to you as directed.
The problem is...nobody even has one of these for sale. They were all given by HE to friends, such as Asimov, Silverberg, etc. These two, in expectation of being gifts, were stuck away and just turned up the other day when we started looking, in response to the Steve McQueen postings. Harlan says to let them go.
So we don't even know what to ask for them.
If a numbered 1st can go for high-end $400, then what do we charge for one of these exotic copies? You'll have to help us here. Make some suggestions. I guess we'll entertain the highest bids. Or something like that.
So far, I've reserved trade paperbacks for:
Philip Cairns
Lorin O.
Ray Carlson
Peter/Union City
Kevin McElroy
Alex Jay "Yes I know you haven't rejoined HERC" Berman
I'm assuming you want trade paperbacks, if you don't, just advise. There is no obligation. If, after reading this, you don't want a copy, just advise.
Don't forget to let us know the personalization you want when you send in your order.
Checks to be made payable to: THE KILIMANJARO CORPORATION, Post Office Box 55548, Sherman Oaks, CA 91413, USA.
That means there are 12 trades left! Those who want the rest of the trades or numbered or lettered just advise me via the board (that way I can reserve your copy) and then send in the check to the above address.
With all best wishes,
Susan
All of this talk of the rarity of some of Harlan's titles prodded me into looking into the value of parts of my collection. I almost plotzed when I realized a dealer is asking over two grand for a copy of Gravity's Rainbow in first edition. A lot of books I take for granted appear to be a lot more valuable than I thought. I should probably have the whole mess appraised professionally, and insured. See what happens? You spend 40 years buying books because you want to read them, and the next thing you know, they're too damned valuable to open without gloves on. In a dimly lit room, at that.
So I'm curious: have you done this, Harlan? How about the rest of you? I suspect the value of some of our mutual collections would make a strong man swoon.
So what the hell. Harlan, Susan--I'd be more than happy to pay market value on that signed/numbered SLEEPLESS NIGHTS plus 10% to give an extra kick to KICK. Figure I can afford it. Add me to the list.
--Alex
"I ain't rich, but boy, what a library I got"
Earl:
As you will realize when you hit puberty, there are only TWO SOURCES for everything ever said or written: Shakespeare and the Bible . . . so bite the bullet and accept the fact that "came the dawn" is a commonspeak used in dozens of contexts, all the way back to Bulwer-Lytton, and it came from the Bible.
Yr. erudite pal, Harlan
P.S. HE forgot to mention, all are in mint condition. Fresh out of the box.
Dear Philip Cairns:
First of all, it's "lying around," not "laying around.
Second, I COULD go into a long dithyramb about why we didn't have copies of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS in 1996, but frankly, it's none of your goddam business. So here's a blow-off answer: we fuckin' chill flat-out LIED TO YOUR ASS!!!! How about that one?
As for everybody who's interested in a copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, we've pulled copies. We have 18 trade paperbacks, 1st editions. We have 1 signed/numbered (of 250)(this one is #11) 1st edition dj/hardcover, signed by both me and editor (Ms.) Marty Clark. And we have 2 lettered/signed (of 26)(these are letters I and K) dj/hardcovers, 1st editions, signed by Marty and me.
Susan is running checks on the former (the most common state) and the latter (the two most exotic states). When she finds out what they're going for elsewhere, we'll figure out prices that won't bust your humps TOO much (but remember, we're selling these to put money in the KICK fund), and we have noted all the names of those of you who've logged in with requests, and we'll start offering them in order of the times you posted, earliest to latest.
Can anyone help us or give us their thoughts on any additional things we should be doing ... oh, and of course, I'll personalize every copy, hard or soft, we pass on to you ... at your direction. Does this seem fair and reasonable?
Have we forgotten anything?
As for you, Cairns, you snot-nosed whelp, you're lucky I don't just come up to Canada and kick yo Canuckbutt all the way to the Arctic Circle.
Put 'em up, Cairns,
Put 'em up!
Charmingly, yr. pal, Harlan
It has finally occurred to me that the posters to this board constitute a collective database of cultural knowledge that might contain the answer to a question that’s been bugging me for some time. I’m looking for the origin of the following catch phrase: “came the dawn.” I heard it uttered by a character in the WWII movie “Battleground” (1949), about besieged US soldiers in the Battle of the Bulge. The scene goes something like this: A soldier played by John Hodiak gripes that he never gets enough information to know what’s going on, that he liked it better when he was a civilian writing for a newspaper and was the first in town to get the news. Another soldier played by Van Johnson asks him how he ever ended up in the army. Hodiak says that he had written so eloquently about the need to fight the Axis that he convinced himself to enlist. Johnson comments knowingly, “Came the dawn.” Given the context and the way Johnson delivered the line, it clearly means “and then you came to your senses.” So far my research has turned up a Bible quote (“out of chaos came the dawn”), which doesn’t seem to fit just right; a song of the 1920s (“Then Came the Dawn”), which seems too remote in time; and the titles of two autobiographies, both of which were published after the movie. I’d ask the screenwriter, Robert Pirosh, but unfortunately he died years ago. (He won an Oscar for his script; it’s a good movie.) If anyone can tell me what book, magazine, newspaper, play, movie, song, speech, radio show, comic strip, vaudeville act, billboard, or bubblegum card first used and/or popularized this catch phrase, I’ll be grateful. (If I ever realize my faint ambition to publish a volume of such lore, I’ll gladly give you an acknowledgement. But probably not a free copy.)
Harlan (i.e., Mr. Ellison):
Please add me to the list of guys willing to fork up some dough for a copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS.
But are you sure you really have a few extra copies laying around?
I remember back in '96, I think it was, you were looking for some book club editions of DANGEROUS VISIONS and I found you two different printings of it hoping I could make a trade for a readable copy of SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, but Susan wrote me back saying you didn't have any, so we traded for something else instead.
I'm not trying to be a jerk (I know and you know that you've pretty goddam good to me; I'm still trying to find the words to express my thanks for a gesture you recently made in my direction---you might not remember it, but I do). But you might be unintentionally dangling a carrot in front of our noses here, making us all squirm for nothing. (Well, not just nothing. I suppose there is some entertainment value in watching grown men and women yell, "Me! Me!")
Best wishes,
Phillip Cairns
Ray?
In re: that Universal Borders smell...
Yes.
They do.
Actually, it's the smell of stupidty and the frantic realization that no matter what you do, you'll never be able to move out of your parent's basement on your 6.50 an hour paycheck. *s*
(You will, however, be able to afford piercings and tattoos if you use coupons on your vegetarian ramen noodles.)
RE: Ellison, the Ashtray of Death, and short fiction. Now we know. Can you imagine what Robert Jordan's ashtray would look like? ::shudder::
Cookie & Alex~ You're doing something that your family will be eternally grateful for. I have had too many folks die horrific deaths in cancer wards to ever even consider smoking. My friends that smoke all know in agonizing detail my opinions on the matter. Recent trips to Nevada have brought home how lucky I am to live in California (where I think you can actually be shot on sight for lighting up indoors). For a classic Old Testament judgement, I personally think the executives at Phillip-Morris should each have a lung sucked out through a straw and then be put through chemo and radiation treatments just as a punishment. No hair, no lung, no immune system. Here? Suck on this, it'll make you feel all better!
No, I'm not bitter at all.
L.
David L.: I know, I have HC Ltd Editions of both books. The point I was trying to make was....never mind
Les éditions Flammarion (one of France's leadingpublishers) just put out an original anthology of Ellison stories, selected by HE and editor Jacques Chambon. Titled «La machine aux yeux bleus», this collection is the first new Ellison book to come out in French since the early eighties and will be followed by French versions of Angry Candy and Slippage this fall. This Sunday, I'll be reviewing this book in my weekly literary column at La Presse (Montreal foremost daily in French).
As editor in chief Le Libraire, a French Canadian literary quarterly available in independent bookstores, I would be interested in interviewing Harlan about his «come-back» on the French literary scene and about his work in general for our fall issue. But I have to reach him first. I'll be writing the HERC. But since Rick Wyatt told me HE or his wife sometimes gets to check this bulletin board, I'm posting this message here so he knows about the project.
Le Libraire's office is located in the Old Quebec at the following adress: 1026, Saint-Jean Street, Old Quebec G1R 1R7. Our phone number is: (418) 692-5421. Fax: (418) 692-0794.
Well, I just called Arthur Byron Cover, and whilst ordering the tape, I copped a copy of the Phantasia Press MEDEA, too. For some reason, that's one of the only Phantasia Press books I've never had. Go figure. Folks, if you're going to order the tape, take a look at the Dangerous Visions website, too--some darn good stuff there!
--Alex
My apologies, Harlan, I didn't know that was take 27 of "Genius at Work."
Your "days of nicotine and noses" tale sounds utterly ghastly, much more shocking than the thing that got that lady in a snit at the comics exhibition in Lake Oswego.
Yes, the package arrived yesterday. It's a lot to go through, but just a cursory peek was pretty amazing.
Sorry I haven't mailed yours yet; I thought you might like prints of the shots I took of you with Will Eisner, Diana, and Michelle "I like your energy" Hageman, and had to get copies made. I'll try to get it all in the mail today.
Once that's all been distributed, maybe I'll send digital copies to Rick for Webderland. Were you still interested in an electronic copy of the author-at-typewriter shot in 1981 that's on my Web site, Rick?
Oddly, Harlan, I just lit the last cigarette I had in my house. I'm smoking it passively as I type. (wait...ahhh! There).
OK, I'll give it try (Mark