Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Fascinating quote regarding "Arabism".

According to Sadek Jawad Sulaimanis the former Ambassador of Oman to the United States:
The Arabs are defined by their culture, not by race; and their culture is defined by its essential twin constituents of Arabism and Islam. To most of the Arabs, Islam is their indigenous religion; to all of the Arabs, Islam is their indigenous civilization. The Arab identity, as such, is a culturally defined identity, which means being Arab is being someone whose mother culture, or dominant culture, is Arabism. Beyond that, he or she might be of any ancestry, of any religion or philosophical persuasion, and a citizen of any country in the world. Being Arab does not contradict with being non-Muslim or non-Semitic or not being a citizen of an Arab state.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:58 pm

Better Arabism than Pan-Arabism, defined on Wikipedia thusly:
Pan-Arabism is an ideology espousing the unification of the countries of the Arab world, from the Atlantic Ocean to the Arabian Sea. It is closely connected to Arab nationalism, which asserts that the Arabs constitute a single nation. Its popularity was at its height during the 1950s and 1960s. Advocates of pan-Arabism have often espoused socialist principles and strongly opposed Western political involvement in the Arab world. It also sought to empower Arab states from outside forces by forming alliances and, to a lesser extent, economic co-operation.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:05 am

Nason, you mean Palestine was stolen, colonized and taken by Jewish radicals. 700,000 expelled to quote Bennie Morris, who actually wished they were all cleansed.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:10 am

Obama is having a hard time supporting or condemning the violence in Ukraine. I mean how can you defend killing police, shooting people? He certainly would not tolerate it here. Peaceful protest gets killed here.

The real story isn't even told--many of the protesters are right wing assholes who want to merge with Europe.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:00 am

FrankChurch wrote:Nason, you mean Palestine was stolen, colonized and taken by Jewish radicals. 700,000 expelled to quote Bennie Morris, who actually wished they were all cleansed.



You know what? So was practically every other "country" on the planet. In just about every case, someone else was there before whoever ended up with it. This is bothersome now because it's recent history, but it's a tiresome argument because it's entirely binary. The question should be, how are we to treat the Palestinians now. The rest of the Arab world doesn't do much else other than bitch about them. They're like politicians with a great campaign issue. As long as the Palestinians are in dire straits, they have an issue. They can point fingers, complain, even sponsor terrorism, all on behalf of the poor Palestinians, who get squeezed between both sides because no one wants them as neighbors. It's a wonderfully adaptable issue for the Arab world because they can use it for all sorts of excuses not to cooperate with anyone they don't want to cooperate with.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:56 am

Frank Church wrote: The real story isn't even told--many of the protesters are right wing assholes who want to merge with Europe.


Yeah, you have ro be a real right-wing asshole to prefer being part of Europe instead of Putin's Russian empire.

800,000 Sephardic Jews were expelled from Arab countries in 1948, and all their homes and property confiscated. Are you concerned about those Jews getting reparations from the Arab nations who kicked them out and ripped them off en mass? These are Jewish communities who had lived in the Arab lands for millennia and had no desire to leave.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:21 pm

Following up on what Robert just reminded us all about: there are always other histories, things that don't make it into the contemporary commentary. Always.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:30 pm

Robert Nason wrote:
Frank Church wrote: The real story isn't even told--many of the protesters are right wing assholes who want to merge with Europe.


Yeah, you have ro be a real right-wing asshole to prefer being part of Europe instead of Putin's Russian empire.

800,000 Sephardic Jews were expelled from Arab countries in 1948, and all their homes and property confiscated. Are you concerned about those Jews getting reparations from the Arab nations who kicked them out and ripped them off en mass? These are Jewish communities who had lived in the Arab lands for millennia and had no desire to leave.



Frank, Robert has an excellent pair of points. On what basis do you accuse the protesters of being right-wing assholes...they have, from a Ukrainian point of view, every reason to mistrust Russia. (Do you remember the Soviet Union? They do.) The eastern half of the nation are very pro-Russian, while Kiev and the cities to the West are pro-Europe.

At the core is the reputed corruption of Viktor Yanukovych and several oligarchs in Ukraine in their dealing with Russia.

From the Washington Post:
TO MANY Ukrainians, the calculations of President Viktor Yanukovych might seem baffling. Having triggered a mass protest movement by turning his back on an association agreement between Ukraine and the European Union, the president looked like he might outlast the protesters after accepting a massive bailout from Russian President Vladi­mir Putin. Yet now Mr. Yanukovych has managed to revive and intensify the rebellion against him by ramming a series of measures through parliament aimed at outlawing opposition demonstrations. Tens of thousands gathered in the center of Kiev on Sunday, and clashes with police left hundreds injured.


In other words, Frank, you're supporting wealthy oligarchs, wanna-be dictators and a clampdown on free speech over the will of the people?
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:37 pm

If anyone is interested in the basis for the protests, who the players are and the cause of the escalations, the BBC has an excellent rundown

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182823
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby DanielBarron » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:48 pm

A report from the UK media regarding elements of the protest movement:

http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svobo ... iot-police

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:02 pm

Markr and Steve both make excellent points. Things are invariably more complicated once you take a closer look.

Frank, since you like quoting Benny Morris, here's what he writes in his 2004 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited" on page seven: “it cannot be stressed too strongly that…[the events], cumulatively amounting to the Palestinian Arab exodus, occurred in wartime and were a product, direct and indirect, of that war, a war that the Palestinians started.”

Rick Richman, writing about the book, says:
If the Arabs had not launched their war, there would have been no refugees then, nor any today. The moral and historical responsibility for the Arab refugees (as well as the 800,000 Jewish refugees forced from Arab countries) has thus always been on those who, even 65 years later, have yet to assume it. While there was pre-1948 support by some Zionists for “transfer”—a word that covered the compensated shifts or mandatory expulsion of Arabs from Palestine—Morris found the “connection between that support and what actually happened during the war is far more tenuous than Arab propagandists will allow.

Refugees are an inevitable consequence of any war, as civilians flee military operations from all sides. But the 1948 war featured a five-nation invasion of Israel whose central aim was a “transfer” of Jews not to a neighboring Jewish country but to the Mediterranean Sea. Morris documented that from December 1947 to April 1948, the Palestinian leadership encouraged or ordered a great many villages to send away their women, children, and seniors, which lowered the morale of the remaining males and paved the way for their departure as well. Entire villages, especially in the Jewish-dominated coastal plain, were ordered to evacuate, to facilitate a war conducted by those who today still complain about the refugees their own war created.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:35 pm

Correction: That should have been "Mark," not "Markr," obviously. Sorry about the typo.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:18 pm

Robert Nason wrote:Correction: That should have been "Mark," not "Markr," obviously. Sorry about the typo.


And a good thing, too. I was struck to the core when I saw that. As long as it doesn't happen again.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:26 pm

Democracy Now has it in the can:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a ... e_violence

The truth about the Venezuelan protests too:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/v ... empt_by_us

Ukraine's leader was democratically elected, you didn't see that in the Soviet Union.

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Nason, a standard dodge on the issue is to keep going back to 1947 and avoid 1967, the period of occupation.

The current situation stems from the power struggle between stealing land and Palestinian self determination. What makes this subject hard to discuss is situations like your new mayor and his secret AIPAC pander:

http://www.thenation.com/article/178132 ... der-aipac#

Chris Hayes mentioned this to De Blasio last night on his show and De Blasio dodged, using the standard ruse that Israel has lots of support in NY and that the state is democratic, blah, blah.

I bet the arab voters who voted for him are not amused.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:31 pm

Mark, your statement about colonialism would hold water if the state in question didn't have a special status in history and among our press.

I would never tell an American Indian that we should not discuss the stealing of their land because taking land is a historical current.

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First Glenn Greenwald, then Jeremy Scahill, now Matt Taibbi are all going to a new media site. Odd since Barber and Doug always talk about how great our press is. Then why are the three top journalists going bye bye?


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