SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ben W.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Tue May 08, 2012 3:00 pm

My experiences among believers and atheists in a nutshell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rW ... plpp_video

Ezra, you might want to pay particularly close attention to this video.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue May 08, 2012 4:08 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Mark

I've been told that there is a gate that is in the Walls of Jerusalem called the eye of the needle. It is only a few feet tall.

Camel's cannot crawl, so that's where that came from.


http://www.eyeoftheneedle.net/eye_of_a_needle.htm

The word in question is the Aramaic gamla which can mean either camel or rope (or, apparently, beam---didn't know that one) and is context-dependent. Early translators, who turned the scripture from Aramaic into Greek, picked one and the error was carried on forward. (Certain types of rope were made from camel hair at the time.)

(There's also the possibility that it was a pun, as the Aramaic word kalma refers to a louse, or vermin.)

But there is also Greek word hominym problem---kamilos means camel, but kamelos is a rope.

According to the article, four different explanations were offered at various times, but further reading suggests the "gate" explanation to be a myth.

"For the last two centuries it has been common teaching in Sunday School that there is a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped and first had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were shut, travellers or merchants would have to use this smaller gate, through which the camel could only enter unencumbered and crawling on its knees! Great sermon material, with the parallels of coming to God on our knees without all our baggage. A lovely story and an excellent parable for preaching but unfortunately unfounded! From at least the 15th century, and possibly as early as the 9th but not earlier, this story has been put forth, however, there is no evidence for such a gate, nor record of reprimand of the architect who may have forgotten to make a gate big enough for the camel and rider to pass through unhindered."


In any case, the point of course is the difficulty of the task. The only reason to worry over these little translation problems is to let some air of the literalist's tires.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue May 08, 2012 4:59 pm

Ben W. wrote:My experiences among believers and atheists in a nutshell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rW ... plpp_video

Ezra, you might want to pay particularly close attention to this video.


I hope Tyson always has the luxury to remain pure and unsullied, above the fray. It does get messy out here and I for one would not care to defend every word spoken and action taken. But when the barbarians come to torch the place, and they will, facile and sterile word parsing will not save him.

In the end I can only speak for myself. At 3am, when all the masks are off (what the ancients called the "wolf hour"), and I ask myself in my deepest heart whether I really believe such a thing as god exists, I answer no I really don't. So I'm honest about it and I call myself an atheist. Does anyone really know for sure with unshakable absolute certainty? Of course not. But that's only because you can't know ANYTHING with unshakable absolute certainty. Science doesn't deal in certainties it deals in probabilities. That's why it seeks recourse in the EVIDENCE. And why it discards hypotheses that lack evidence.

The only folks with absolute unshakable certainty that I see are the religious who not only know god exists but know what he had for breakfast. And what's more they even know what he wants you to have for breakfast. And which hand to hold the fork in.

Ben, got any evidence that god exists? I'd be happy to hear it. But in the end standing on the sidelines is not a very honorable place to be. Of course it is a convenient place to jeer at some poor dumb bastard out on the field who trips over his own feet and falls face down in the mud. But finally which of the two do you have the most respect for?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue May 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Kudos to Peter Beinhart for his book The Failures Of Zionism, which talks about how liberal democracy is being harmed in Israel by right wing politics by Netanyahu. That the occupation is hurting freedom and the Zionist ideal. I give him credit because he is being killed by book critics, even though he is a mainstream moderate/liberal, who supported both the Iraq war and War on Terror. He makes a very measured view of Israel policy, much less strident that Finkelstein or my Chomskers. Because this society is so propagandized, even insiders like Beinhart like crushed.

I don't like everything in the book, but he has guts for going against the usual liberal apologetics of the holy state.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue May 08, 2012 6:54 pm


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Ben W.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Wed May 09, 2012 6:36 am

I've always found the fundamentalist Republican's sneering contempt for the poverty-stricken and disenfranchised a little odd, considering that Jesus was supposedly the ultimate hippie.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Moderator » Wed May 09, 2012 10:32 am

Ben W. wrote:I've always found the fundamentalist Republican's sneering contempt for the poverty-stricken and disenfranchised a little odd, considering that Jesus was supposedly the ultimate hippie.


A little odd? It's astoundingly hypocritical in my book. Support the rich if you will, but let's not cloak that in religious terms which are contradictory to the very values you're espousing.

Even more stunning are the number of true Christians who don't see the conflict between what they proselytize and what they practice.
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Ben W.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Wed May 09, 2012 11:03 am

Barber wrote:
Ben W. wrote:I've always found the fundamentalist Republican's sneering contempt for the poverty-stricken and disenfranchised a little odd, considering that Jesus was supposedly the ultimate hippie.


A little odd? It's astoundingly hypocritical in my book.


I was being sarcastic. Another disadvantage to conversing online is the difficulty in conveying one's tone-of-voice without relying entirely on emoticons.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed May 09, 2012 12:38 pm

Ben, good point. If I were on the radio I'd make more sense. Snort.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby David Silver » Wed May 09, 2012 4:35 pm

FM or AM?
We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.

-- George Bernard Shaw

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu May 10, 2012 7:52 am

Both.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Moderator » Thu May 10, 2012 10:17 am

David Silver wrote:FM or AM?



Not AM.

Fergodsakes, not AM.

:twisted:
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu May 10, 2012 11:49 am

Noooooooooooooooo...

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu May 10, 2012 12:49 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Noooooooooooooooo...



So if you don't want to be on AM, what the hell did you mean when you told BenW you wanted to be on both? Long and shortwave. Information and entertainment? Just what the heck did you mean?

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu May 10, 2012 5:43 pm

Not sure which forum is best to post this, so...

http://marktiedemann.com/wordpress/?p=1155


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