THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Tue May 01, 2012 2:19 am

Ok here is what I think, live and wo regard to grammar punctuation or spelling.

Alcoholism is a disease. One is not responsible for having a disease. One is still to some extent responsible for what one does when drunk. Alcololics go to meetings. Without meetings, alcoholics are just drunks. Steve asked me on FB if I knew about alcolholism. Here is my full answer. Both grandfather were abusive alcolhics who thought their family members were their playthings when they were drunk. Gus removed himself from my life when I was one. He moved to Florida. Only good thing he ever did for me. Of course, he left my grandmother, who was ill and my disabled aunt and my teenage father penniless and alone. Then the fucker got sober with his second wife, while his family starved and tried to work through the damage. Oscar my other grandfather stayed his whole in our lives. To toss his drunken bullshit at his kids and grandkids. Then he died, after getting sober, in agony from the consequences of alcoholism. I was 24. And I thanked God for every second that man spent bleeding his life out and suffering.

This fucked my parents and their siblings up no end. When my dad was sober, he was the sweetest, smartest person you could know, bright and warm and funny. When he was drunk he was abusive,his drinking started getting bad when I was 13. I watched his drunken rages for years, knowing how much It was fucking me and my brothers and sisters up. When I was 27, 28, he through me across the room to stop me from calling the police on him which I was doing bc he was beating up my mother and younger brothers. Yeah I know about alcoholism.


My brother Mike was two years younger than me. He inherited the artistic talent. He could draw anything. I mean anything. He was smart and funny and kind, he started drinking at 12. He spent more than half his life in jail for stupid shit. He tried to get sober. His demons were too relentless. He died of alcohol and drugs at 42. I miss him, I mourn the loss of his talent.
Two of my remaining three brothers suffer from serious alcohol and drug problems. Probably my other family members too. I spent some time in A.A. The program works if you work it. I don't go to meetings anymore. Neither can I drink more than a glass of wine. Too many presciptions for blood pressure.

Nothing anyone of us says to you, Tim, can get you drunk or get you sober. What you wrote to Ezra was horrible outside the pale. I cringed. And it scared me. I think however that Rick and Steve are wonderful moderators. And they will handle it. I think there should be a repercussion and I think that that post should be removed. I also think Tim that you are a good man, a bright individual, and a good writer. So, please for yourself and those who care for you, get help. Please. You will find you have many more friends than you know.

The rest of you all, whatever happened to Judge not and you will not be judged. You don't walk the paths of flame that I am sure Tim does. No noone has to suffer abuse bc of his disease. Steve and Rick will handle that. Ezra responded with calm. Where the rest of you all were coming from, I don't know and didn't like. Kicking Tim when he is down is cruel and an unwelcome response in my book. That's it./ DB

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue May 01, 2012 3:19 am

Tim Raven had told us early on that he suffered from depression (if I remember correctly) and that he didn't like the effect the medication had on him, so he decided to medicate himself with alcohol instead.

Now, I'm a member of the Prozac For Lunch Bunch, and when I consulted a psychiatrist on possible treatment for depression (at my father's urging when he discovered what he had was treatable) and she was a bit surprised that I hadn't tried medicating myself with some mood altering substance or other. I don't know what Tim goes through day by day, though I can guess. Sometimes it can be too much and the mood gets out of control. I think that when that happens, his drinking can get out of control. He ends up doing or saying things he'll probably regret, whether he admits it or not. His condition and the drinking sort of feed on each other.

Yeah, I think his response to Ezra was pretty damned out there. I wouldn't recommend his approach to his situation to anyone. I don't think it's wrong to call him on his shit when it happens, and I don't believe in making excuses.

However, I don't think what's happening on the Pavilion is right, either. Let's find out what Tim has to say about all this and Rick or Steve can decide what to do, along with Harlan. Ezra's right: Ganging up on him is not the answer.

Chuck
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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue May 01, 2012 5:27 am

And, it seems I've repeated myself over at the Pav without meaning to. I swear, it looked like the first posting didn't take. Most embarrassing.

Chuck
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue May 01, 2012 9:10 am

Ok I really was only vaguely aware that Tim had a history although I do seem to remember some unpleasantness a while back. And he was banned for a while, right? Now I regret responding to him at all. I just felt like tweaking him when he posted about how much of a stud he was.

Actually I've met someone like him before. A handsome ladykiller who conducted a reign of terror everywhere he went. I found out later he put at least three women in the hospital. I met the guy when he moved in with my landlady. I walked in one Sunday night after he had spent some time working her over and I lost it and threw the sumbitch out of the house. Bodily. Sad, cause when he was on his meds and didn't drink he was a nice guy.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue May 01, 2012 9:33 am

Ezra, don't worry about it. Your response to his post on the Pav was wonderful in its control.

I do not know what Tim is going through. I've met him and he seems like a nice enough chap, but something gets into his bonnet and he crosses the line.

Regardless, it's Rick's decision as to what to do. Tim has been lying low, so I think we leave it to the two of them to sort this out and move on.

Thx
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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue May 01, 2012 10:22 am

Long ago, in a galaxy far away....

I did a stint as a "counselor" at a self-help clinic where a range of ailments were treated. I bugged out of it after a few months because I really didn't know what I was doing. But I did learn a few things.

Alcoholism is a disease. Yes. What must be remembered is that not just the alcoholic "gets it" but also everyone around one. Not the drinking but the symptoms, of which there are a suite and not all of them are centered on the sufferer. One of the treatments is to cut yourself off from the alcoholic. Not everyone can do this, but it is sometimes necessary because the alcoholic depends on the support of those who tolerate the behavior.

The other thing to keep in mind is that not all alcoholics are as unaware as some might have you believe. I had some interaction with one once that got rather ugly. He got loaded at a church function, started insulting people, hurt his girlfriend (psychically) rather badly, and then started throwing around furniture and threats. He told me if I didn't get out of his face he'd kill me. (I only asked him if I could take him home.) A few days later, we were together at a mutual friend's house where he was trying to apologize, but doing so by claiming he didn't remember anything. At one point he and I were alone in the room and he felt it necessary to reiterate to me that he didn't remember.

"That's fine," I said, "but if you ever threaten me again I'll put you in the hospital."

From his reaction, he bloody well did remember that night and was just shining us all on.

For people like this, tolerance is a petri dish wherein the disease thrives. Responding in kind is not a good answer, but neither is making excuses for them. It's sad but this is a disease that makes use of the victim and is therefore so inextricably linked to the person suffering that you simply can't treat them as you might someone suffering something like cancer.

Just an observation. I prescribe no actions here.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue May 01, 2012 10:42 am

Thanks Mark. I have been on the periphery dealing with my cousin's alcoholism for some twenty plus years now. He's currently -- hopefully -- in rehab up in Burbank with the Salvation Army. It's touch and go.

His parents, particularly his mother, have suffered horrendously because of his problem. He's a truly gifted singer and -- odd combination -- gymnastics coach, but he's managed to destroy his reputation for both through his abuse. Twenty years ago I was drawn into his sphere when he moved a few blocks from my wife and I, at which point I became an unwitting enabler.

He has negatively impacted so many people in his life that it's a mass tragedy in so many ways. His two kids have turned into extraordinary adults, having had to do so at a young age. They have, in turn, become the adults in that relationship...but in their case they are handling his issues in a way the rest of us should have decades ago. They make their love clear, but he doesn't have the latitude of behavior with them he has been granted by his parents. His brother is civil, but has essentially disowned him. I've spoken to him maybe a dozen times in the last decade. He's always welcome at our house, but a careful eye is kept on his consumption and any extended absences. He's a good guy, but he's burned through too many friends and favors. (At one point a mentor of mine, himself a recovering alcoholic with two decades under his belt, called in a couple of favors to get my cousin into a very sophisticated rehab clinic -- which my cousin left two days in because they wouldn't let him keep his painkillers for a bad back. They'd give him all sorts of pain therapy, but no addictive meds of any kind. So he left, ended up on the street for a few weeks until he literally drank himself into the ER.)

A number of years ago I wrote some 75,000 words of a (very bad) novel trying to work through my anger with him. I've moved on, but he has yet to be able to walk away and stay there.

Sorry. Your note evidently called up a lot in my subconscious.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Tue May 01, 2012 10:50 am

FrankChurch wrote:France beats both of them, so there!


Don't make me laugh.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue May 01, 2012 12:23 pm

Steve,
Based on what Rick said in the Pavilion, it looks like Tim is way too much like your cousin. Too bad. It does seem such a waste. Once, when someone posted about an addicted friend or family member, he wrote a post in which he admitted he was guilty of the same behavior. It was rather well written, actually. What a waste.

It really is something what addiction can do to a person.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Wed May 02, 2012 1:05 am

Hi guys. My bloody stomach is killing me.
That was me Tim responded to, Chuck, when I was complaining about my brothers, who the last few weeks have been doing better. But Tim's response to me at the time was very kind and very well written, and I have never forgotten the kindness.

I don't know. Michael Nesmith, from hey hey Its the Monkeys - I friended him on FB last week and he wrote this beautiful post about cosmic laughter. It helped me, he writes lovely things, life can sure be a kick in the nether regions, can't it?

Rick and Steve, just wanted to say thanks for all you do around. Steve the Hawaii pics and blog were great.

Hi, Lori and Gwynne.

My stomach just stopped hurting, and I think I shall take advantage of this and grab some restful slumber.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Wed May 02, 2012 5:31 am

I hope your stomach feels better when you wake up. You've got enough to deal with as it is.

Chuck
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed May 02, 2012 6:10 am

Thanks, diane, glad you enjoyed the blog entry.

I'm a bit worried about your stomach. You taking care of yourself? Nerves? Something you ate?
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed May 02, 2012 9:40 am

Thinking about serial killers all day doesn't help.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby admin » Wed May 02, 2012 11:40 am

I feel like everyone responded well, and thanks to Steve for the heads up. Jan what email did you try? I probably need to put you in my spam filter or something.

A drunken outburst can be forgiven given any sign of contrition or learning. What concerns me is Tim continues to return to the Pavilion and post, and he continues his pattern of gradual escalation of rule-breaking and churlish behavior every time. The individual incidents concern me less than the pattern.

Anyway, I have not banned Tim here. I'd love it if his participation here was in some way contingent on his staying off the Pavilion. I don't really know what to do at this point, though. As far as the forums, you guys have more right to say than I do...

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed May 02, 2012 1:21 pm

I love this man. I've said this many times--beyond a red moon or a full moon or barely any lunar nudity, suffice it to say, I dearly love this man.

Wyatt, beyond all the snark and assorted fireworks, how are you?


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