SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby cynic » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:14 pm

Complex wrote:And also don't forget reverend George Zabelka who held Holy Mass on both atom bombs that exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If there wasn't his blessing less or maybe even none Japanise people would die and thus US would lost the war. But with his blessing the pilots knew God was on their side and even Jesus himself rode the atom bomb as it fell and killed.

torn between slim pickens ride in "...love the bomb" or this, happy holidays all; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
follow your bliss,mike

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:52 pm


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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:01 pm

"The Bible is the most genocidal book in the canon."

Noam Chomsky.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:26 pm

FrankChurch wrote:"The Bible is the most genocidal book in the canon."

Noam Chomsky.


Nice dodge Frank. You still need to tell me how Islam can be considered a religion of peace while its founding text advocates violence.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:50 pm

Let Karen Armstrong speak for herself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huPtiWq04gQ

"The chief case for going to war is utter boredom." wow.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:16 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Let Karen Armstrong speak for herself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huPtiWq04gQ

"The chief case for going to war is utter boredom." wow.


Frank

I did my ask you how YOU, Frank Church, can call Islam peaceful religion when it condones the killing of infidels, women who are raped and the system known as honor killings.

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Steve Barber
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Barber » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:35 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Let Karen Armstrong speak for herself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huPtiWq04gQ

"The chief case for going to war is utter boredom." wow.


Frank

I did my ask you how YOU, Frank Church, can call Islam peaceful religion when it condones the killing of infidels, women who are raped and the system known as honor killings.


Frank, this is what we mean when we say YOU don't answer questions or discuss in detail. You post links so that we can try and track down points made by other people.

Forgive me, but it's an extraordinarily lazy way of thinking you're making authoritative posts. You're not. You're parroting.
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:58 am

An interesting article about a study illustrating how people cling to beliefs when they’re threatened by facts.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/12/ ... -by-facts/

Judging from the comments the original graphic accompanying the article showed someone handling a Rosary. Now it shows a pack of Tarot cards. I guess they the prefer the wrath of the New Age folks to the wrath of the pissed off Catholics. :lol:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Violence is a human concern. How you use it is still guided by the human emotions involved. You can use religion as an excuse for why you do something, but the human nature you have is what may make you impure enough to do violence. Power gives you the emotional heft to use violence and you have to use culture to get people to fall in line. In the Middle East Islam is part of the culture, it has to be used to define almost everything.

Most violence is still done by nation states. The break up of the Ottoman Empire created the rift between factions. We have turned that on stun for years, especially during the failed Iraq war.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Thank the Pope for Cuba. Pope good.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:15 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Violence is a human concern. How you use it is still guided by the human emotions involved. You can use religion as an excuse for why you do something, but the human nature you have is what may make you impure enough to do violence. Power gives you the emotional heft to use violence and you have to use culture to get people to fall in line. In the Middle East Islam is part of the culture, it has to be used to define almost everything.

Most violence is still done by nation states. The break up of the Ottoman Empire created the rift between factions. We have turned that on stun for years, especially during the failed Iraq war.


First of all, WTG Frank..... You finally are discussing things.

Now to my question. If your founding document espouses violence, like the Quran does, how do you consider it a religion of peace? Most of the words of Christ talk about kindness and tolerance, but as Barber points out even it can be considered violent to a point.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:21 pm

You are basically saying that words in a book can actually make somebody want to kill, even children? That could open the door to say anything in art or culture that is anyway violent can lead to that. The peaceful Muslims pretty much disprove that.

It took years in a hellhole prison in Egypt to radicalize some jihadis. Their side thinks this is a war as well. They go along with us that killing innocents is part of war--collateral damage, a horrible word.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:57 pm

You are basically saying that words in a book can actually make somebody want to kill, even children?

Jesus, Frank you simply cannot be that naïve! Of course they can! And do! These folks believe. They're not kidding or pretending. It not a game to them and their religion is not a jumped up self-help group.

On Thanksgiving I went with my Dad over to my cousin's house to have lunch. They are fundamentalist Christians. During the meal I was regaled with a serious discussion about whether or not Obama was the antichrist. A completely serious discussion. (Consensus? No. One of the characteristics of the antichrist is that he will be popular and fool people into following him. Obama is not popular, sooo...)

These folks believe, Frank. They really believe.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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AndrewR
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby AndrewR » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:34 pm

It took years in a hellhole prison in Egypt to radicalize some jihadis.


For many Jihadis it's taken considerably less effort. Humans tend to be a gullible and easily swayed lot. Look at how many non-arab teenagers from Europe and the North America have been caught trying to sneak off and join ISIS and Al Qaeda.

You are basically saying that words in a book can actually make somebody want to kill, even children?


So you've not noticed every single doomsday cult? Hell, it doesn't even take words in a book, just charisma and a good speaking voice.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:46 pm

Frank

The men who posted before me said what I would have a bit more eloquently than I would have.

But, if you look at it, history is filled with religious people being violent with the sanction of their major religious figure. Started with the Crusades and has gone on since then, right down to what we are dealing with right now.

Beliefs don't need evidence or verbiage. All they need is enough people to believe. Once you have a large enough group of believers all sorts of things, both good and bad, can happen.


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