SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:29 am

I got Barber's permission to post this awhile back, but really struggled with whether or not to post this. But, with what Frank is posting, I have to do this. As many of you know I am a huge fan of Penn Jilette, and give him a lot of the credit for my being what I am today On page xvii of his book God, No! He says the following:


"Where is the humility in being a theist? There is none. What would it take for me to believe in god? It would mean that I know. Not that I just happen to know about Kerouac, Thailand liquid nitrogen and vector calculus identies, but that I know there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent power in the universe that I can't prove to you, but that I know because I have faith. I know because I know...

There is a shit tonne more, but I leave it there for now.

Frank, can you please explain to me why you believe the above is not correct? The most humble thing a person can say is that I don't know.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:43 pm

Ezra, how can you honestly denigrate Karen Armstrong? She really does her homework. Sam Harris just makes stuff up.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Complex » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:13 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Dorothy Day certainly was rebellious.


And also don't forget reverend George Zabelka who held Holy Mass on both atom bombs that exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If there wasn't his blessing less or maybe even none Japanise people would die and thus US would lost the war. But with his blessing the pilots knew God was on their side and even Jesus himself rode the atom bomb as it fell and killed.

Truth is people don't have complete control over their lives. You don't know if you walk down the street if the car will suddenly go of road and kill you; if you'll fall and crack your head; get ill etc. that why they invented religion, horoscopes, good luck charms to at least feel they have some control.

Think about it if someone approached you as an adult and told you world was created by invisible wizard in six days and then talking snake came which doomed people so Wizard gave birth to himself in order to forgive himself etc. you most probably wouldn't believe it. You were brainwashed as a child and now you stick to it for some sense of honor and not to mention fear of Hell. I mean please. Do you really think that anyone, even the most evil humans deserve to be most heinously tortured forever and ever and ever? Well nobody does, let alone somebody that was just because they were other faith then Christianity, or stole a car, didn't give money to the Church etc. Are you willing to sit in the afterlife on a cloud with that kind of God that punishes people so harshly? It's all invented just to take cash from people.
Just like reverend George Zabelka who made lots of money for Vatican from the army and it's a mutual cooperation. In all these past decades of US wars like Korea, Vietnam to now religions and priests were there to encourage young men to kill. Because killing does not feel good for majority of people but that why they come to their priest and confess so he can encourage them "Your sins are forgiven. Remember you are on God's side, These heathens just want to destroy the world so go ahead drop those atom bombs, throw that Agent Orange, use those bayonets, bomb them."

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:14 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Ezra, how can you honestly denigrate Karen Armstrong? She really does her homework. Sam Harris just makes stuff up.


Frank I'll be happy to respond to your question but it's going to cost you. I'm no longer willing to invest time and energy in a one sided conversation. So if you genuinely want my opinion about Karen Armstrong then first I need for you to give me a specific example of something Sam Harris just "made up". I need a source and a quote.
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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:36 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Sam Harris just makes stuff up.


Isn't that all theologians do?

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:32 pm

That Islam is not a religion of peace? Most Muslims are peaceful. Common sense my friend.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:33 pm

Religion is an ancient answer to how the world works. It later was proven to be a wrong answer but it was an attempt.

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Steve Barber
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:31 pm

Steve Evil wrote:
FrankChurch wrote: Sam Harris just makes stuff up.


Isn't that all theologians do?


No, not really. The vast majority do work from an established doctrine of some sort that they, themselves, didn't create. You may feel the original creators made it up, but it's an unfair assessment to accuse followers of it.

I recognize the point you're trying to make, but it's not an accurate statement.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:18 pm

Barber is right.

I presented Bishop Spong, probably the most radical Christian working today but Ezra still thought he was loopy. Some atheists just will not accept people of faith even when they use their brains more than most.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:18 pm

FrankChurch wrote:That Islam is not a religion of peace? Most Muslims are peaceful. Common sense my friend.



Frank, have you ever cracked open a Qur'an? It advocates the killing of infidels, woman who have been raped and condones the concept of honor killings.

Now I'd love love to have you explain how that is peaceful.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Tim Raven » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:19 pm

I accept people of faith, I just don't like it when they take actions that force their strange beliefs on me, beliefs that I don't share. In the U.S. and in the rest of the world those impositions are great, small, subtle and not so subtle.

I can't recall the number of situations where I was getting alone just fine with someone and then they ask me if I have a personal relationship with Jesus. When I respond in the negative, the subtle or not-so-subtle browbeating begins and never stops until I make myself scarce. I guess If I was in Syria in the same circumstances not only would I be uncomfortable but my head would soon be removed from my shoulders, so perhaps I should not complain too loudly? That's the modus operandi of a non-theist. Not complaining about imposition and execution.

Tim

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Steve Barber
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:46 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:That Islam is not a religion of peace? Most Muslims are peaceful. Common sense my friend.



Frank, have you ever cracked open a Qur'an? It advocates the killing of infidels, woman who have been raped and condones the concept of honor killings.

Now I'd love love to have you explain how that is peaceful.


The Bible isn't exactly free of such things.

I think all more "enlightened" believers will allow that times have changed and perhaps interpretation of certain things ought to be a bit more flexible.

My buddy Jim is a literalist, but he asserts that the problem is that most people don't bother understanding the actual intent of the text.

We've argued just a bit on that point.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:51 pm

Tim Raven wrote:I accept people of faith, I just don't like it when they take actions that force their strange beliefs on me, beliefs that I don't share. In the U.S. and in the rest of the world those impositions are great, small, subtle and not so subtle.

I can't recall the number of situations where I was getting alone just fine with someone and then they ask me if I have a personal relationship with Jesus. When I respond in the negative, the subtle or not-so-subtle browbeating begins and never stops until I make myself scarce. I guess If I was in Syria in the same circumstances not only would I be uncomfortable but my head would soon be removed from my shoulders, so perhaps I should not complain too loudly? That's the modus operandi of a non-theist. Not complaining about imposition and execution.

Tim


Yeah. One of my biggest rows with Jim was when he said something about a personal relationship with Christ and -- while I should have kept my mouth shut -- I corrected him that HE has a personal relationship with Christ, he could not assert than Christ had that relationship with him. Jim began objecting and -- again before common sense (and a lessening of the wine to red corpuscle ration in my blood) could prevail -- I responded with "It's a little like stalking, if you think about it".

I found it much more humorous than he did. :shock:
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:52 pm

"ratio" not "ration"
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:15 pm

Steve Barber wrote:
Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:That Islam is not a religion of peace? Most Muslims are peaceful. Common sense my friend.



Frank, have you ever cracked open a Qur'an? It advocates the killing of infidels, woman who have been raped and condones the concept of honor killings.

Now I'd love love to have you explain how that is peaceful.


The Bible isn't exactly free of such things.

I think all more "enlightened" believers will allow that times have changed and perhaps interpretation of certain things ought to be a bit more flexible.

My buddy Jim is a literalist, but he asserts that the problem is that most people don't bother understanding the actual intent of the text.

We've argued just a bit on that point.



I picked the Qur'an because it is the one that Frank mentions. The majority of Judeo-Christian texts are violent.


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