Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:44 pm

Harlan has said that about the internet.

It's not that hard of a linkage. Death squads were trained as well, mostly by our military. Matters what you train and what you believe is moral or truthful. Many death squads have people who were normal cops at one time. They updated their bloody resume.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:09 pm

Yes, it is a labored linkage. You carry anything to an extreme and you're going to get bad results. I understand your concern, but there's a tremendous distance between a handful of thugs spread throughout the police force, and roving gangs of death squads. And if we get to that exponentially-increased scenario, there will be many other things more demanding of your immediate attention than fear of being shot by the squad.

That's the issue, Frank. It's a matter of degree, and you're going from an E or perhaps F (thugs among the police) on the relative scale to Z (the police state reinforced by death squads). The astounding thing is that you always profess undying enthusiasm for nationalistic regimes.

On the Pavilion you posted "Patriotism is the more dangerous religion", and yet it's the cornerstone for many of the leaders you have supported on this site over the years.

And even in that statement, you have it wrong: it isn't Patriotism that is a dangerous religion -- it's Nationalism. Patriotism is your support of your state as a country (a patriot can work against the government, for instance). Nationalism is believing your state to be superior to others (a Nationalist generally supports their "country" from a more zealous standpoint).

Nationalism, in the extreme, is a much more damaging attitude. It's a tool employed by totalitarian regimes and dictatorships to whip up the frenzy of the masses -- often out of fear of "an outside influence coming to get you". Hitler did it. Chavez did it. Kai-shek did it. Pinochet did it. Putin is doing it.

Patriotism can be bad, but is much more malleable than Nationalism. I'm intensely loyal to the United States, but do not see us as inherently superior to other countries. As a patriot I understand the sacrifices of our ancestors, and have been to see many of our historic places throughout the country. I'm loyal, as the saying goes, to the Flag of the United States -- the concept behind it -- not to any individual leader or geographic boundary. (I advocate California independence and would, if pressed, consider myself more of a California Nationalist and an American patriot. Yes, I can square that.

But to get back to my original point: you're missing the degrees, the nuances, when it comes to your pronouncements. So, to a certain extent, claiming that we need to fear the advent of Death Squads under current conditions is hyperbole. There are many other more pressing and urgent solutions which need to take place to prevent such a scenario than simply regulating the cops, and most of those changes have to do with changing the public mindset and the political atmosphere.

As long as fear mongering is being employed as a political tool, you will not find the environment in which to more heavily regulate the police.

Fix the political message, calm the general public, and ratchet down the rhetoric. Restrict the private ownership of military-grade weapons.

THEN worry about regulating the police force.

Until then, it's simply the equivalent of spray painting the word "war" on a Stop sign and feeling you've made an intelligent and useful contribution to the debate.
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Chuck Messer
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Chuck Messer » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:01 pm

And even in that statement, you have it wrong: it isn't Patriotism that is a dangerous religion -- it's Nationalism. Patriotism is your support of your state as a country (a patriot can work against the government, for instance). Nationalism is believing your state to be superior to others (a Nationalist generally supports their "country" from a more zealous standpoint).


Patriotism: "We're number one! (in some way, at least)"

Nationalism: "We're the only ones who deserve to live and the rest of you people are breathing our air."

Howzzat?

Chuck
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:23 pm

Ratchet down the laws, that would work. Legalize all drugs, have yearly psych screenings of cops, have better training. The way they are looking at the torture report tells one just how loopy our society is.

Obama, torture is not wrong or a mistake, it is a crime.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:00 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Legalize all drugs


THAT would solve almost nothing as far as crime or police abuse, but we'd be a helluva lot more compliant.

(You cannot really be seriously suggesting that heroine, ecstasy, coke and meth ought to be legalized. I'm assuming.)

(And remember, "legalized" doesn't mean unregulated. You're simply handing it from one Federal Department to another.)
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:08 pm

The drug war is linked to most crime. Police are sent into one area focusing on one race of user only. Gangs are created, here and south. Poverty and malaise is linked to drug use which funds the violence.

Yes, legalize it all, meth, heroin. Put people on prescription. Get people off drugs with government intervention. Banks make huge bucks from drug laundering.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:12 pm

Steve Barber wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Legalize all drugs


THAT would solve almost nothing as far as crime or police abuse, but we'd be a helluva lot more compliant.

(You cannot really be seriously suggesting that heroine, ecstasy, coke and meth ought to be legalized. I'm assuming.)

(And remember, "legalized" doesn't mean unregulated. You're simply handing it from one Federal Department to another.)



Actually I think we should take the English model of drug enforcement. They not only give the user a prescription, but also a place to shoot up, one with people who know how to deal with ODs. It's more what the street drugs are cut with that causes troubles, but also the fear of going to the hospital when you OD that causes the death. Take that away and you usually have better outcomes.

It's called the Harm Reduction model. You cannot force people to stop using drugs unless they want to. The best you can do is make sure that both the public and personal problems are reduced as best as the individual will allow.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:15 pm

“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Frank, this is going to upset you.

White Castle is closing your stores....

http://fox8.com/2014/12/11/northeast-ohio-white-castle-locations-to-close-permanently/
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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:33 pm

I have a fundamental problem with "possession" laws. I can sympathize with a civil desire and need to keep certain things out of certain hands, but that to my mind justifies confiscation only, not criminal action. I remember the days when cops would throw a nickel bag in the trunk of a car just to make the bust. Almost every other law we have concerns use, not possession, and we can finesse it any way we like, just having something should not be criminal. It's too easy to turn everyone into a criminal that way.

Treatment for drug abuse would be easier and cheaper. But in this instance I kind of agree with Frank---treatment solves a problem rather than validates an institution.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:09 pm

Mark, I know that hurt, but it will be ok. Drink some shots of whiskey, stare out the window, binge, purge, you will be fine. :)

Ah. Barber, that is nowhere near me. Me in southwest Ohio. Those are probably inner city franchises.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:14 pm

Police are sent to the black community because getting arrests are very easy. The people there have little power and the police do not like the code of silence on squealing, a general act because of bad policing. Whites are more likely to be using but they don't break down doors in college dorms. Wall Street traders are notorious for doing lines of coke and going to brothels. They have much more power and it takes more serious police work to catch them, and the well connected can find the right lawyers.

Also why the torturers are not being charged.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:05 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Police are sent to the black community because getting arrests are very easy. The people there have little power and the police do not like the code of silence on squealing, a general act because of bad policing. Whites are more likely to be using but they don't break down doors in college dorms. Wall Street traders are notorious for doing lines of coke and going to brothels. They have much more power and it takes more serious police work to catch them, and the well connected can find the right lawyers.

Also why the torturers are not being charged.



Frank,do you have any stats that back up your charges about the cops?

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Steve Evil
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:31 am

Stop the presses! Pope says Dogs go to Heaven!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /20296955/

(Alright, maybe it's religious. . .but it's NEWS!)

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:49 am

Steve Evil wrote:Stop the presses! Pope says Dogs go to Heaven!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /20296955/

(Alright, maybe it's religious. . .but it's NEWS!)


Remember, this is the pope who said that even atheists get to go to heaven if we behave correctly.


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