Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:33 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Letting cops do anything is how you get death squads. That's impressive, because I usually say that. lol


I'm not sure I understand the comment.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:25 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong Frank, but you just accused Barber of thinking like you do.

Which shouldn't surprise you, we all agree with you when we think you're right.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:52 am

Death squads are cops with no breaks.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:53 am

Lori, Lori, Lori.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:40 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Death squads are cops with no breaks.


Even more: Huh?

:?
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:53 pm

I thought Berkeley was liberal:

http://www.alternet.org/activism/graphi ... ce-actions

Looks like a death squad to me.

Death squads start out as regular law enforcement.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:55 pm

We are so fucked.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:13 pm

Steve Barber wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Death squads are cops with no breaks.


Even more: Huh?

:?


I think he means "brakes" as in, with no one stopping them they go wild. And I agree, death squads are at least partly secret police with no restraints other than the tyrants unleashing them.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:47 pm

I see.

Perhaps, Frank, you ought to be explicit. In a small range, as Mark notes, unrestrained police forces can become "death squads". As can terrorist organizations, street gangs, militia, drug dealers, rogue military units, self-appointed rulers, Britsh football fans, political parties, etc, etc, etc.

In other words, it's an extraordinarily weak point and does virtually nothing beyond saying "oh, garsh!"

If you have an obscure point to make, make it. But I confess I was convinced you were seeking something a bit more than a crude basic point...and was wrong, I guess.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:41 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Lori, Lori, Lori.


It's one thing to be dismissive dear. But if you expect it to change my behaviour, you're gonna have to tell me what the fuck you're dismissing. Just common forum courtsey.

Tim Raven
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Tim Raven » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:05 pm

The police in this country are not death squads, Frank.

Racism is a sub topic of the latest dust-ups, but I would argue that the fundamental problem is this, and it is THIS issue that should be debated and fixed in this country.

If a civilian does not comply to a police officer’s commands to that police officer’s satisfaction, does that law officer have the right to murder that civilian with his state issued weapon?

That is what we need to debate in this country. The law’s answer to the above is NO, but we all can see with our very own FUCKING EYES that that is not true, the police CAN murder us with impunity if we “do not comply immediately to their satisfaction”.

Everything else is a distraction to this fundamental point.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:48 pm

Well the oft threatened "Torture Report" has been released and it turns out to be as bad as expected. But who knew under his fright mask Big Brother would turn out to be Gomer Pyle? These idiots hired two "torture experts" and paid them $80 million bucks! Presumably the CIA has a wide field of candidates to choose from for expertise and all they can find are these two chuckleheads? I assume the qualified, capable folks wouldn't want to be part of such a sordid business. No one will be prosecuted of course and most people couldn't care less as long as the football games start on time. But the information is out there and now no one can claim they don't know. After 9/11 America gave itself permission to be stupid and unfortunately we already had a whole cadre of well-qualified folks in place ready to go.
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:29 pm

I don't understand why Barber cannot get me here. If you let authority use violence with little oversite, they could be death squads later. Think Indonesia.

The banality of evil is something to google.

-----------

Ezra, welcome back. They also kept stuff from Colin Powell, because Powell wasn't as immoral as them. I do think killing is worse than torture and we do that now under Obama.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:42 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I don't understand why Barber cannot get me here. If you let authority use violence with little oversite, they could be death squads later. Think Indonesia.

The banality of evil is something to google.


Well, no. Reread my post just above. I understood your comment but thought it was remarkably one dimensional. Of course you can get death squads if the police force is not overseen properly. I agree with that completely.

But it's not a very salient point. You can get death squads with a brutally overseen police state as well. The only difference being who is directing the hits.

The police squads during Prohibition were lightly overseen, but the death squads came from the mob hits, not the police. The police simply looked the other way as their palms were greased.

My point is that you can make a comment which, if broad enough, can sound scary but has almost no real world value. "Nuclear bombs are capable of destroying humanity!!!!" "The internet is full of lies!!!" "Sharks are attacking people off the coast of Australia!!!" "Not overseeing the police can result in Death Squads!!!"

They're all true to some degree, but the statements themselves are of little value.

And that is MY point, which you do not seem to be getting.
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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:03 am

FrankChurch wrote:I don't understand why Barber cannot get me here. If you let authority use violence with little oversite, they could be death squads later. Think Indonesia.


He did get you. It's just that you used a howitzer to crack open a walnut. After the explosion no one can see what it was you were aiming at in the first place.

We do not have Death Squads. We've had and continue to have rogue cops, sometimes several in one department, scattered, but no concerted policy that enables them, and from time to time a cycle of police violence---which often comes after a period of unusual civic violence (to paraphrase one of your favorite stylistic attacks: think Crips and Bloods)---is made public and steps are taken, as they are being taken now (as to whether or not they'll be successful in the way we might wish is another matter), and it cycles back down to where we stop noticing police misconduct for a time until things get bad again and we start screaming for ;law enforcement to do more. It's symptomatic of our peculiar traditions of dealing with such matters, not A Thing as it tends to be in Central and South America at times.

That said, the militarization of local police departments has become a serious problem and one that's actually hard to talk about without sounding silly. You dress people up like soldiers and send them out to battle, they act like soldiers, not police. We've been moving in this direction for decades, with the advent of the SWAT divisions. It is a real problem. Vests I got no problem with, but I want the police out in the streets dressed like police, not special forces. It would alter the perceptions on both sides and maybe start to ratchet down the atmosphere of confrontation.


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