THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:20 am

Lori, we worry about a dirty bomb when we should worry about actual nukes: India's, Pakistan's, Israel's, ours! The main reason why the bombings in 45 were so evil. They opened pandora's box for future destruction.

We certainly have never done long term thinking well.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:25 pm

The main reason why the bombings in 45 were so evil.

Frank have you ever spoken to one of the veterans who was on a troop ship heading for Japan as part of the planned invasion of the main islands (where it was estimated there might be a million casualties) and who then found out that the bomb had ended the war and prevented the invasion from having to take place? I have. Tell him how evil the bomb was. I wish the world was as simple and as black and white as you seem to think. But it's not.
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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:06 pm

Evil, Frank? You want to talk about evil? We killed 3.5 million Japanese, about fifteen percent of which were civilians. The Germans had it a lot worse, with five or six million killed, about thirty percent civilians.

The Japanese killed 21.4 million Chinese. 21.4 million. About 1.4 million of that total were military personnel. That's twenty million civilians, all dead. Ninety-three percent of total dead. That's not "collateral damage". That's no accident. That was the result of a deliberate program of extermination, which included gruesome germ warfare experiments.

Evil, Frank?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:50 am

Didn't we already go through a tortuous discussion about Hiroshima/Nagasaki not six months to a year ago? Are we actually going to do this again? Frank---who is certainly not alone in this---takes the position that any---ANY---use of nuclear weapons, at any time, under any circumstances, is by definition evil. There can be no justification. Many of the rest of us are less categorical. I think putting nukes in a special "never to be used no matter what" category has the effect of making everything else kind of okay to use, which is bullshit. I also think some lesson was learned from that time such that one of these things hasn't been used since, which I'm not sure would be the case if we hadn't seen the results. I also don't believe you can second-guess what people were thinking at the time and in place, making this the ultimate in arm-chair command. for many reasons, Truman decided simply that if he could end the war with two bombs instead of many thousands of American lives, that's the way to go. Mitigation is there only in hindsight.

But please. We all know where we stand, and unless we're all masochists, let's move on. Nothin' new to see here.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:57 am

I abjectly smack myself on the forehead for taking the bait.

I should have known better.

Criminy.

Chuck
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:04 am

Old battles are the easiest to fight.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:13 am

Of course it is evil. As Doctors understand when they take the oath: First, Do No Harm.

Yea, I'm going to rely on military brass, the same brass that think it is great that our guys rape female servicepersons.

Think of all the unwanted babes in Vietnam. Grimey.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:33 am

At least I can back my shit up:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vBZiU_ ... ma&f=false

-----------

Jackson Mississippi just elected a really radical mayor. I'm really happy about that. I expect race baiting fucktards to come from their rocks.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:27 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I'm going to rely on military brass, the same brass that think it is great that our guys rape female servicepersons.


You know, having a father who was once part of that "brass" and having a quite broad range of such people as friends of the family, I have to note that is probably the most bigoted, smarmy, wholly offensive piece of garbage you've ever expelled here. And that's really a deep, deep pile to begin with. Brain-fusingly evil characterization.

You don't like the military, fine. But making this sort of deckworthy character assault -- well, it's difficult for me to express how far you have just fallen in my estimation. After a very nice note on the Pav, you've just blasted off your foot and a good chunk of your leg with me.

Frank, this was truly ugly and speaks very ill of you as a person if you believe it's true.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:57 pm

Frank

I am really upset with you as well. If I'd have known that a simple act of kindness on my part would have led to this, I'd never done it in the first place.

And just a subtle reminder. Those men you are calling evil are the very same ones who make sure you have the right to say what you want without fear.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:56 pm

I understand why Barber is ired, so I will not talk directly to Barber, but to the general idea: If I am critical of military brass it does not paint the entire corps. That would be like saying criticizing pedophile priests is blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church or ire about Stop and Frisk is anti-police. I get Barber's personal connection, but I will say that there are many military people I admire. My hero is General Smedley Butler, a man who is taken out of our history books because he was moral.

Andrew Bacevich, an ex-colonel is also great as is former General Anne Wright. I am going after brass who say sexual assault in the military is not an important issue. You should have seen how they were fried on Morning Joe, and they are media elites.

If I offended I am eternally sorry. Some of our best whistle blowers are military--Bradley Manning comes to mind.

I am making an attempt at institutional analysis. I should not have used the term evil.

Another aside: Our star general David Petraes just cashed in, using his status to get a cushy job on Wall Street. Doesn't make him evil but it does make him corrupt.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:58 pm

You mean activists do that, Lori. All our freedoms are given to us by activism. In eras of war the elites take our freedoms away.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:41 pm

You demonstrate that you DON'T understand my fury.

Frank, you truly miss the point. You paint all military officers with a broad and extremely offensive brush. In your attempt at defense and explanation above you specify SOME, but thats not who you have attacked here. You have issues with a few, SAY SO! But you didn't. You explicitly demeaned an entire group and personally insulted every one of them -- including my own father -- as approving of rape. "...that think it is great that our guys rape female servicepersons." Many if not most of them have wives and daughters they are willing to sacrifice their lives to protect. Your life too, for that matter. Say it to their faces and you'd be on the floor, possibly permanently.

If I hadn't personally banned it, I'd tell you precisely my response to this sort of arrogant and snotty excuse for high handed rhetoric. It's blatantly misinformed and does a massive disservice to a lot of people I know.

You're being arrogant and judgmental with people it seems you've never met. Your offense, to put it in perspective for you, is the equivalent of my dismissal of all Ohioans as bloodthirsty heavily-interbred gun toting white tea party extremists. It may fit a few people, but I'm damned certain you'd take personal exception to it.

And I'm holding my tongue as to what I'd really like to say.
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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:16 pm

I attempted to debate this Bomb thing a long time ago and took great pains to explain my position then. A fruitless exercise. Much like talking to a television. (Again, what was wrong with the war crimes trials??) I will simply reiterate that there was no way that war, the worst there every was, was going to end pleasantly. To state otherwise is pseudo history.

Frank, you've really got to think things through before you type - you knew Barber came from a military family, would it have killed you to have been more diplomatic?

On the Sixth of June too. . .

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:22 pm

FrankChurch wrote:At least I can back my shit up:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vBZiU_ ... ma&f=false

.


As opposed to everyone else here who never back up anything they say.

Interestingly, one of the reviewers on that site had this to say about the book:

"Loewen undermines his own argument with two major problems: mistaking his own opinions for fact, and being unable to acknowledge this lack of neutrality in his own analysis. Consequently, he writes in a very personal, very opinionated style that is totally inappropriate for a book that purports to be factual."


Why am I not surprised?


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