THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:54 pm

Some variable pieces of my illustration work for ads, cartoons, and layouts which I sold are accessible to view at this link:


http://paintedbrain.org/new-artists

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:35 am

Diane, I will give you better:

Chomsky has a retirement plan with stocks from oil companies. His explanation is that he has grandchildren and he wants to give them something when he dies.

It's not hypocracy it's reality. Chomsky still says what he says, writes what he writes. He wants a world where oil companies don't exist. I see that as sanity.

Would I invest in oil company stocks? No, but I don't have grandchildren in Nicaragua either. If I did I might do what he does. It's easy to throw stones. Martin Luther King used to bang women behind his wife's back. Did that nullify his moral ideals?

You know the answer.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:52 pm

All very reasonable, Frank.

So it's possible that Christopher Hitchens' support for the war in Iraq doesn't invalidate everything else he ever wrote or idea he had or action he took?

Or does your expansive and forgiving view only apply to Prof Chomsky because your're a disciple?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:39 pm

Oh bullshit Frank. Paul fucking McCartney has grandchildren too. So do Disney executives. Yes cheating on his wife, while preaching to the rest of us does take away some, not all or most but some of King's legacy, as it does for Clinton, Kennedy, Rev. Jackson. Claiming privileges for Chomsky while denying the same for other artists and musicians is hypocritical bull shit. You know who I respect, not just those who talk the talk but those who walk the walk. Otherwise it's all just pipe dreams and castles in the air. And a gigantic waste of my time to read/comment on.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:21 pm

Frank, Im sorry not for what I said but the way I said it. If your ideas and beliefs are valid to you, they should apply across the board, no exceptions. Jesus lived poor and did what he told us to do

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:42 pm

Chomsky's stance is pretty minor compared to supporting a war that murdered a million people.

Chomsky's only stance is to have an ethical ideal you can live with.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:42 pm

That's what I thought. :roll:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:52 pm

What else can I say? Chomsky's the most consistantly moral person there is.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:39 am

FrankChurch wrote:What else can I say? Chomsky's the most consistantly moral person there is.


That is, besides the Devil. If you believe that sort of thing. Stay away from crossroads at midnight, Frank.
I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi Knight, the same as my Father.
STAR WARS (1977)

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:39 am

FrankChurch wrote:What else can I say? Chomsky's the most consistantly moral person there is.


Frank

Chomsky's stock in trade is how words are used to manipulate people isn't it?

So, it stands to reason that he can make you think amazing incorrect things about himself if it suits his purpose.

If you agree with me that morality is what people do when they think they are being watched, then you'll agree that we should worry more about a persons ethics, which is what people do when they are alone.

It's ethically bankrupt to tell people not to do things, like owning oil stocks, that you aren't willing to do yourself. Children be damned. He could have invested in Solar or Wind power if he chose.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 am

It would be more offensive if he was using it himself. But he is not, he is giving the money to his grandchildren. If I did the same thing Chomsky would not think it was immoral. If I was using the money to buy a mansion, that's different. There's also the fact that the retirement fund has stock options, Chomsky didn't actually buy the stocks, he was given the stocks.

So there.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:02 am

Lori Koonce wrote:.

If you agree with me that morality is what people do when they think they are being watched, then you'll agree that we should worry more about a persons ethics, which is what people do when they are alone.

It's ethically bankrupt to tell people not to do things, like owning oil stocks, that you aren't willing to do yourself. Children be damned. He could have invested in Solar or Wind power if he chose.


A quibble, but I'd reverse that. Morality is what you do when no one's watching, because it is supposed to be your core, your center. Ethics comprises rules of acceptable behavior in society, which by default means what you do when people ARE watching.

Otherwise, I agree with you completely. You can have the opinion that something is wrong and still do it because it's the best way to protect yourself and your loved ones, but it crosses a line to lecture everyone about how wrong it is when you're doing it yourself. That betrays a flawed moral sense. But it may be perfectly ethical, since it is accepted---even expected---behavior in a given society.

I respect Chomsky's observations, but he's the last person I'd assign as chief guru. In this instance, he displays the same kind of character traits he condemns in governments.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:07 am

FrankChurch wrote:It would be more offensive if he was using it himself. But he is not, he is giving the money to his grandchildren. If I did the same thing Chomsky would not think it was immoral. If I was using the money to buy a mansion, that's different. There's also the fact that the retirement fund has stock options, Chomsky didn't actually buy the stocks, he was given the stocks.

So there.



Quibble quibble, roil and ripple
Excuses fly as systems tipple

If what he is condemning is the institution and the harm it does as an institution, then any kind of support, even if it is by second party gratis, is problematic. What he spends the dividends on is immaterial if by owning the stocks he participates in something he finds otherwise odious.

Of course, you may be making excuses for him he doesn't make for himself. He may well believe it doesn't matter, when it comes to his family it's "fuck you all, I'm taking care of my own." Which I can sorta respect.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:09 am

Mark

I have always been taught that morality is a code of behaviour that comes from outside the person, be it from religion or social standing, and that ethics is a code of behaviour that comes from examining one's self and determining the best course of action for any given situation. Both can be bankrupt, but when one is IMO ethically bankrupt it's a bit worse.

But, how ever you look at it, it's kinda a bankrupt position to be telling people they need to do things that you, yourself refuse to do.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:09 am

I'm saying he lives in reality.

If I find a few thousand bucks on the ground and I know the money was drug dealer cash I will still spend it. All money is dirty.


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