Pavilion Digest: April 2006

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Postby Keeney » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:41 pm

Name: Keeney
Source: unca20060606.htm
Dan Krogh has passed away.


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Postby FrankChurch » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:52 pm

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20060606.htm
I am sorry to post twice, but I have to ask Harlan something: AO Chapman, the twit who interviewed you, along with Nardwuar, has a post in Nardy's forum, where he responds to a question that I asked Nardwuar about the interview, and why he treated you like a goon. I want to post it here, but I do want to ask your permission first, because I know how this stuff gets you steamed, and I don't want to just post it, knowing you might kick my ass. I also want to mention that the AO answer is mostly pretty snide and hateful, don't know if you even want to read it. If you do, then I will post it, if not, it will go in the other forum. Be good.

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Postby Roger Gjovig » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:17 pm

Name: Roger Gjovig
Source: unca20060606.htm
I took my mother and her sister out to dinner at a restaurant called The Machine Shed tonight. The servers have bib overhauls on and the food which is very good is served family style. I was looking at the odd stuff they have for sale out in the lobby and there was a stand that had Necco Wafers on it, both the chocolate and other style. Harlan the packaging said they were the original kind and I remember reading that you did like the chocolate ones. This restaurant is pretty close to my home, I would be glad to pick some up for you if you still have a craving for this type of wafer. Roger

Paul L
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A Coopla Bloomin Bewks

Postby Paul L » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:43 pm

Name: Paul Lorello
Source: unca20060606.htm
Hello all. I just got around to reading THE SECRET MAN by Bob Woodward. If I'm a little late here and this was covered already, I apologize. But I'd like to hear views on it.

It's a nice companion piece to ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN, which I'm rereading now. Can't get enough of Watergate. It's like looking up at the night sky. Almost unfathomable.

TO RICK KEENEY: Damn you, man. You fueled the fire. I'm dying to reread some Linebarger stuff and my NESFA edition of THE REDISCOVERY OF MAN is packed. (I'm moving soon.) I could start rifling through boxes, but my gal, though beautiful when angry, would ply me open with a rusty corkscrew and suck out my entrails with a Krazy Straw if I did. A bit obsessed with organization and a wee bit stingy with the packing tape, that one.

Lieberry's closed. Damn you, man.

With manshonyaggers up my ass,


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Postby KristinRuhle » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:06 pm

Name: Kristin A Ruhle
Source: unca20060606.htm
Roger: You can buy Necco wafers, Original Formula Ovaltine (which is still sold overseas), and other vintage/nostalgic products from Vermont Country Store, or 1-802-362-8460 (the latter is a toll call I think).

I believe the Ellisons are already aware of this, and certainly tired of having gifts of candy show up in the mail, so why not eat 'em yourself?

Necco makes those cutesy Valentine heart shaped candies little kids pass around with printed messages like LOVE FOREVER and other plithy platitudes, probably from the same stuff as the colored / assorted wafers. "Oh! No WONDER those yeechy things taste like Crayola Chalk! And you can't even draw on the sidewalk with 'em!"

I've never tried the chocolate ones....

Gee Keith, give the poor man a break! I mean, you don't want your books inscribed with "You shithead" or something, do you??You must soooo crave attention. Be careful what you ask for.

Huh, I didn't know there were two Mr Priests, - what does the website say? Any detailed profiles of program participants there? Well, anybody in fandom *must* know who out there doesn't get along with who and I don't think they really want blood in the hallways or smoking holes in the ground. HE's only going for one day anyway.

I just found out Worldcon is the week BEFORE Burning Man. Ohhhhhhhhh. the hotels are filling up and full membership costs $175-$200 ($200 at the door i think) and ... Now i'm really embarrassed at what I posted last week - but money does remain an issue for me.

Remember Ovaltine? My father does! He says he hated the stuff and only gagged it down so he could get Captain Midnight Decoder Rings!!

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Postby FinderDoug » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:10 am

Name: FinderDoug
Source: unca20060606.htm
FRANK CHURCH - Why are you telling stories that stir up trouble over a radio interview that was 14 years ago?

Or is there another reason you've misrepresented our host to your own ends over at Nardwuar's forum in the following post ("Subject: Harlan Ellison is Very Angry at you.", found at

"I reminded Harlan, in is forum about listening to your interview with him, and he still is pissed about it. He is a great writer and the kind of unfair hit interview was not right, since the guy was nice enough to do the interview.

Harlan thinks you are a twit. Proof that the internet is full of fools. That's his spiel, not mine."

Of course you got a negative response from Aaron. You jumped him with a lie. Then you walk back in intending to post the angry response resulting from your lie, and you get your controversy with clean hands.

Please Frank - educate us all: where did Harlan respond to your mention of this interview with his ire? Please quote the expression of his still being "pissed about it"? Quantify "very angry".

You can't, can you?

You're just looking to stir up all kinds of hate and discontent, aren't you?

You're a low-life, Frank.

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Postby Moderator » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:47 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20060606.htm
Yo, Mr. H. I knows several big badass roadie types what lives in GuadaLaHabra. Yooz want I should tell 'em about dis Mr. Priest guy? I mean, yooz mite want someone else's finguhprints if, uh, anyt'ing "unfortunate" shood happen.

(Note to Homeland Security Monitor: The above is meant to be amusing, and is presented with tongue firmly in cheek. It is not a threat against anyone. Especially anyone named Priest. Or even priests in general. No animals were harmed in the writing of this commentary.)

(Any similarity between the above fictional posting and the Sopranos is entirely deliberate, as long as no rights were abridged in the process. Otherwise, the complete opposite applies.)

(And yes, the Priest attending LA Con -- in Orange County -- is the self-obsessed writer who wouldn't know a good editor from a dead sea urchin.)

Rob - Still looking. Just 'cause you say it's true doesn't make it so... (But I still have the crayons handy.)

Rick - Have a wunnerful and hopefully not-too-painful week.

Eric Martin
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Postby Eric Martin » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:20 am

Name: Eric Martin
Source: unca20060606.htm
>Yooz want I should tell 'em about dis Mr. Priest guy?<

Better yet, make peace and move on. Life is short, and enemies are a time waster.

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Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
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Postby Harlan Ellison » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:22 am

Source: unca20060606.htm

FinderDoug summarizes my feelings to a T.

The interview, 14 years ago, was silly; the interviewer silly; the questions and intent, silly. It didn't last long. I hung up on him because he was a silly young man trying to be clever, but badly equipped to pull it off, and in a matter of a few minutes, when I realized his intent was not to "interview," but to insult ... I hung up on him. End of story.

You folks can do what you choose, on another forum thread, to indulge Frank Church's pointless exercise, but I don't want any part in it. Like the bogus Foolscap dust-up, this is a no-issue time-waste. FinderDoug can spot a jerk almost telepathically. He is a good belweather. Frank is not.

Oh, and KEITH CRAMER ... this one's for you:

As always, and forever, with ickysticky adoration,

Yr. pal, Harlan

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Postby robochrist » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:33 am

Name: Rob
Source: unca20060606.htm

Well, this is what I was conveying to Steve B.

In spite of your link, it is still an open question where I sit that Disney had traced FULL sequences for released footage - the only thing that really makes it rotoscoping. The animators did a lot of "in-betweening" in Snow White, and that's why they referred to it as referencing.

I'm pressing Steve to place diret quotes from his book about Disney where it actual states that complete sequences in Snow White (or other Disney features) were fully rotoscoped.

We're now talking about a thin line here, so we both need to know what exactly what that line IS.

Having said that, I did moderate my argument a little, having re-thought the issue with Max Fleischer:

I've always liked dis legendary figure, outside his Gulliver feature (to be honest), which was VERY obviously rotoscoped. Many of his titles were rotoscoped, but without looking so obvious (in animation - and I think this is the key - you HAVE to do SOME degree of exaggeration in movement, or the look can seem leaden). Yet, all the modern stuff I'd seen growing up that WAS rotoscoped looked really bad to me. So, perhaps it really is an issue of doing it well or poorly; meaning, I guess, more often than not it's done poorly.

I still think, though, IDEALLY, it SHOULD be used as a reference tool rather than a lazy way out: like using live action for beginning and completed movement and "in-betweening" freehand as I believe Disney was doing in those necessary cases. (101 Dalmations is the one exception I'd believe he'd used the tool more extensively: I don't know how else he'd have pulled that off; but it didn't LOOK rotoscoped; the dogs have that freedom of movement that is slightly outside the box of normal live action: THAT'S the detail I'm really addressing)

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Postby BrianSiano » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:31 am

Name: Brian Siano
Source: unca20060606.htm
I was pretty appalled at Frank's little venture. I generally enjoy reading Harlan when he gets riled up about something. Most of us do. But for Crisesakes, I do NOT try to _rile him up_ for the experience. It's not because he's Harlan, either: it's just common courtesy to _not_ treat people like wind-up toys.

My estimate of Frank Church ain't never been terribly high, but I hadn't expected him to try something this ill-spirited.

Kelly Brown

The Human Boil that is Naudwuar

Postby Kelly Brown » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:59 am

Name: Kelly Brown
Source: unca20060606.htm
Like English cuisine and the American president, Canada too has it's national embarassment and he is Naudwuar. Why and how he's avoided a fatal beating is beyond me. They have his interviews, mostly of music personalities, featured on our version of MTV and his whole schtick is that he's purposefully annoying.

Under no conditions can the behavior of anyone interacting with this chromosome deficient hobgoblin be faulted and those who last more than 90 seconds are eligible for sainthood.

So to Harlan and all of you I apologise on behalf of all the people of Canadian for letting Naudwuar get near or on you.

Sincerely and not at all in jest.

Dougie McIntosh
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Art Spiegelman on WNYC - New York Public Radio

Postby Dougie McIntosh » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:28 am

Name: Dougie McIntosh
Source: unca20060606.htm
For anybody trying to find this, try :

The Brian Lehrer Show
Property Values
Thursday, April 27, 2006

and then underneath, "listen to the whole show"

It also includes Jonathan Lethem and Professor Siva
Vaidhyanathan . . . plus some luvverly rhetoric
at the start from dubya !


-- Dougie.

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Postby rich » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:31 am

Name: rich
Source: unca20060606.htm
Was that Harlan that actually posted about Christopher Priest attending LACon?

If so, what was that about and why is it interesting? Are we supposed to talk about Christopher Priest? Or should we thank Frank for bringing up something that is barely even a blip on the radar, thus diverting attention from the Christopher Priest comment?

Steve P.-O.

Google reveals all

Postby Steve P.-O. » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:51 am

Name: Steve P.-O.
Source: unca20060606.htm
A Google search of "Christopher Priest Harlan Ellison" will soon tell you all you need to know on that topic. No need to discuss hereabouts, I'd venture.

This Nardwuar fellow is also turned up quickly with a Google search, as is the interview with Harlan. I'm surprised Harlan lasted 15 minutes with the idjit.

While I respect the hell outta Jello Biafra (saw him on his spoken word tour maybe 15 years ago, and have always loved the DKs), I can't help but question his sanity for wanting to produce Nardwuar bits for the masses.

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