1977 - You Don't Know Me, I Don't Know You [Ellison/fandom]

The SPIDER Symposion: in-depth discussion of specific Ellison stories and works.

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KristinRuhle
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Postby KristinRuhle » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:57 pm

aside/comment....

Sf fandom is notorious for harboring socially dysfunctional people. Some of them have problems with biological hardwiring which they literally cannot help. I suspect the "stone fan" stereotype may really be Asperger's Syndrome (which didn't have a name in the days when Harlan wrote some of his fanbashing essays.)

Some how I cannot imagine Stephen King engaging in Harlan-style insults...he just seems to be this incredibly nice person who keeps himself aloof from the public to make sure he stays that way. Too many bad experiences could turn anyone mean. Horror writers in particular tend to attract the really psycho stalker fans.

Kristin

Gwyneth M905
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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:12 am

further aside...
yeah, Asperger's Syndrome is really crippling. It's one of those "invisible disabilities" that makes life hell for those who have it. A friend of mine has Asperger's and has a PSD, a psychiatric Service Dog, like a guide dog. The dog helps him socialize and also helps him to cue in to emotional situations that he'd miss otherwise. It's really amazing to watch them work together.

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Jon Stover
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Postby Jon Stover » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:41 am

Science fiction: more appealing to the high-functioning autistic!

I'd think it's cultural far more than any prevalent disease among sf fans. With the entry of more and more women into the 'hard' sciences, I'd imagine the gender divide in sf will become less and less noticeable (just as it's been improving since the 1960's).

Men without women can be quite odd. Lots of men and only a handful of women can be even odder.

The 'old boy' flavor of sf fandom isn't unique -- one saw it in business, in academia, in lots of place, and it's still in those places today. SF fandom mimics, in some ways, the party-hardy yuks of fraternity life and jocks-only dorms, only with less muscles and less sexual confidence. Such a culture, propagating over time, becomes the fandom of today, stuck in a transitional state between testosterone-fueled, badly socialized boob-grabbing hijinks and something more equitable...like Trek or Whedon fandom.

The culture of meanness in sf fandom also doesn't help, resembling as it does some bizarro hybrid of fraternity hazing and snooty academic oneupsmanship. The onus in sf fandom often seems to be on the receiver of the putdown to phrase a witty comeback, laugh along at his/her humiliation, or skulk off in shame while the crowd laughs. That's terribly unhealthy -- a culture of intellectual bullying.

Cheers, Jon

Gwyneth M905
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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:52 am

Really astute observations, Jon -- it's good to have a guy who sees these things as well. As a woman it's easy to be labeled a "bitch" for making the same comments that you have just made.

(It's interesting how this thread is tying into the LACONIV thread over on the general board. Apparently a poster has been criticising Ellison as a mysogynist generally based on his works. This is *exactly* what he refers to above.)

I suppose it may be because I came to fandom via Dr. Who--my first convention was Gallifrey, that I have had a different experience. The female /male ratio seemed, if not a little more balanced, then much less obviously skewed toward the posturing male side. The men I met there were all polite and, well, rather courtly. (Not that there's anything wrong with posturing males -- I've got to admit it can be cute and endearing as well as annoying as hell. Why? I don't know.)

The culture of meanness is really quite strange. Harlan refers to it in his essay #4 in An Edge in My Voice when he describes the fan who insults him all the way upstairs in an elevator. Once again, this wasn't my experience in Dr. Who fandom.

Except once. And this was mea culpa. I was drafted to guard the door to the vendors' room. A tall-ish man who vaguely resembled a handsome Rowan Atkinson was striding through the doors sans badge. I politely stopped him. He gave me a look that could freeze mercury.

Turned out that I had just carded Steven Moffat. Oops. (And he wrote my favorite two episodes, 'The Empty Child' and 'The Doctor Dances' to boot.) If he would have chewed me a new one it would have been justified.

One should know the writers as well as one knows the actors on a series. After all, television is the writers' medium. So I was a mean so-and-so for picking on a poor writer who just wanted a cut-price Dalek.

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AlexKrislov
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Moffat or not

Postby AlexKrislov » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:36 pm

Gwyneth, I think it rather obvious that Moffat had no cause to glare at you, be he writer, artist, actor or gofer. Even guests of the convention wear badges (usually with decorus plumes so that we'll all know how very important they are). There's no reason anyone should expect all those guarding an entrance to know who they are.

Which, I suppose, goes to prove that pros, like fans, can be horse's patoots on occasion. The joy of being human guarantees it.

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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:48 pm

Thanks, Alex :), and yet Gallifrey is so small by con standards, and we have the opportunity for such close interaction with the GOHs i.e. eating meals with, hanging out with, chatting up, etc -- I should have known him.

It's great just to be able to be around the writers--kinda like hanging out here :)! There's such great conversation and such able minds. I feel really blessed to have found a spot where people can carry on real arguements: logical discussions, even if they may get heated at times.

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:52 pm

"heated?" Hell, we almost have icepick fights in this place. Good to know that I aquired an able wrist. All that Ms. Pacman was at least good for something.

My main problem is, some of us want to be adults, to the point that we forget what it feels like to pee on yourself.

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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:18 pm

FrankChurch wrote:My main problem is, some of us want to be adults, to the point that we forget what it feels like to pee on yourself.

See Frankie, we need to get the Webderlanders to take up surfing!! Just one dip in the NorCal waters and we'll have those peter heaters warming up our wetsuits in no time flat! ;)

In one of his essays, Harlan describes attending a party where the parents of a small child let him "do his own thing". This includes the kid whipping out his wild thang and pissing all over the living room. Apparently the kid scored one on Harlan's pants leg. Wish I could remember where I read about that.

Carstonio
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Postby Carstonio » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:18 pm

Gwyneth M905 wrote:further aside...
yeah, Asperger's Syndrome is really crippling. It's one of those "invisible disabilities" that makes life hell for those who have it. A friend of mine has Asperger's and has a PSD, a psychiatric Service Dog, like a guide dog. The dog helps him socialize and also helps him to cue in to emotional situations that he'd miss otherwise. It's really amazing to watch them work together.


I'm 90 percent sure I have Asperger's. But sometimes I have difficulty distinguishing my Asperger's traits from the aftereffects of my parents' emotional abuse.

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:06 am

Gwyneth M905 wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:My main problem is, some of us want to be adults, to the point that we forget what it feels like to pee on yourself.

See Frankie, we need to get the Webderlanders to take up surfing!! Just one dip in the NorCal waters and we'll have those peter heaters warming up our wetsuits in no time flat! ;)

In one of his essays, Harlan describes attending a party where the parents of a small child let him "do his own thing". This includes the kid whipping out his wild thang and pissing all over the living room. Apparently the kid scored one on Harlan's pants leg. Wish I could remember where I read about that.



It's in one of the Glass Teats. In fact, I indexed it, so I can find it for you real quick . . . there it is: first column in The Other Glass Teat . . . #53, dated 13 February 70, two pages in.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

Gwyneth M905
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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:00 am

David Loftus wrote:
Gwyneth M905 wrote: Wish I could remember where I read about that.



It's in one of the Glass Teats. In fact, I indexed it, so I can find it for you real quick . . . there it is: first column in The Other Glass Teat . . . #53, dated 13 February 70, two pages in.


Thanks, David! Too tired to tie this in with our subject right now, but I'll get there and get the thread back on track... :)

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:46 pm

We are having a relay race with urination fixation. I don't know if it is right or not, but it does stir something in my bladder.

Gwyneth M905
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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:02 am

FrankChurch wrote:... but it does stir something in my bladder.
Frankie, I'm posting really late....and....I'm getting this visual of a really, really, really long swizzle stick with a the Playboy bunny head on one end and the other end...ya know...I shouldn't go there...no....no...no...think of ... daisies... daisies... daisies... where is Jello when I need him....

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:12 pm

Hey, it's your fucking fault for having that awful mac. haha.

Gwyneth M905
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Postby Gwyneth M905 » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:33 pm

teehee;)


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