Pavilion Digest: August 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Book cover

Postby reddragon70 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:11 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091007.htm
I totally agree with Mr Cullen. A damned good cover, thought provoking and unusual. So please dont change it. If anyone finds it offensive then the problem is with their own narrow mind and not the artwork or the subject matter of the book itself.

Mr Dooner also hits it right on the head. A dangerous vision. And a bloody bold one.

So my tuppence worth says "Keep it and damn anyone who disagrees"

Mind you nobody ever listens to me, but the consensus seems to be favourable anyway. I am with that lot, heart and soul.

All the best

The other Iain

reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Book cover

Postby reddragon70 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:11 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091009.htm
I totally agree with Mr Cullen. A damned good cover, thought provoking and unusual. So please dont change it. If anyone finds it offensive then the problem is with their own narrow mind and not the artwork or the subject matter of the book itself.

Mr Dooner also hits it right on the head. A dangerous vision. And a bloody bold one.

So my tuppence worth says "Keep it and damn anyone who disagrees"

Mind you nobody ever listens to me, but the consensus seems to be favourable anyway. I am with that lot, heart and soul.

All the best

The other Iain

Ryan Leasher

Postby Ryan Leasher » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:22 am

Name: Ryan Leasher
Source: unca20091007.htm
Hunh...I'm surprised by the call for input on the cover. The request is cool and all, but seems beside the point.

Harlan, why do you want it?

I would think the answer to that would and should trump all responses, be they reassurance or warning.

--
Ryan

Ryan Leasher

Postby Ryan Leasher » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:22 am

Name: Ryan Leasher
Source: unca20091009.htm
Hunh...I'm surprised by the call for input on the cover. The request is cool and all, but seems beside the point.

Harlan, why do you want it?

I would think the answer to that would and should trump all responses, be they reassurance or warning.

--
Ryan

Jes
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:07 pm

Fish-Heads

Postby Jes » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:44 am

Name: Jes Bickham
Source: unca20091007.htm
HARLAN -
Been a while since I checked in here, so just wanted to say a big 'hi' (waves at our host, Steve Barber, Peg and the rest) and hope everyone's ticking along OK. Gotta say, I love the cover - bold, striking and brave. Although, in the interests of further feedback, having shown the guys in the office (I'm back on Death Ray these days), none of us are really sold on the font (check out the wacky hyphen!). Just our tuppence, mind.

MARK GOLDBERG -
Thinking of you, pal. Hope you're bearing up - much love from over the pond.

Best to all,
Jes

Jes
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:07 pm

Fish-Heads

Postby Jes » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:44 am

Name: Jes Bickham
Source: unca20091009.htm
HARLAN -
Been a while since I checked in here, so just wanted to say a big 'hi' (waves at our host, Steve Barber, Peg and the rest) and hope everyone's ticking along OK. Gotta say, I love the cover - bold, striking and brave. Although, in the interests of further feedback, having shown the guys in the office (I'm back on Death Ray these days), none of us are really sold on the font (check out the wacky hyphen!). Just our tuppence, mind.

MARK GOLDBERG -
Thinking of you, pal. Hope you're bearing up - much love from over the pond.

Best to all,
Jes

Rick Ollerman
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:59 am

Cover response

Postby Rick Ollerman » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:19 am

Name: Rick Ollerman
Source: unca20091007.htm
My cent and a half:

I strongly dislike the cover. My first thought was that it was a joke, my second was that it was ugly, and my third was that while I must buy the book I don't think I'd ever let anybody see it. It may say something Harlan wants to say, but it doesn't look good (to me) doing it.

Rick Ollerman
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:59 am

Cover response

Postby Rick Ollerman » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:19 am

Name: Rick Ollerman
Source: unca20091009.htm
My cent and a half:

I strongly dislike the cover. My first thought was that it was a joke, my second was that it was ugly, and my third was that while I must buy the book I don't think I'd ever let anybody see it. It may say something Harlan wants to say, but it doesn't look good (to me) doing it.

Tony Rabig
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: Parsons, KS

The cover

Postby Tony Rabig » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:48 am

Name: Tony Rabig
Source: unca20091007.htm
Harlan,

Back in the late Cretaceous when I was still working in libraries, I met the Dillons at some library function in Chicago and talked briefly with Diane Dillon about their covers for the Ace Specials. She said they didn't do that well in the marketplace because they weren't immediately recognizable as science fiction. And through the years many of those books have been reprinted and reprinted and reprinted, but with covers more easily recognizable as sf.

When I was still working at Kroch's and Brentano's in Chicago, I was there during the tail end of the publication of the Pyramid series (Dillon covers) and for the Ace series with covers by Barclay Shaw. Those covers fairly shrieked "Fantasy here!" and that was the case even with books like MEMOS FROM PURGATORY or the GLASS TEAT volumes. More than once, when suggesting them to a receptive customer, I saw an initial reaction of "Nah, I don't read fantasy/science fiction/weird stuff."

Did the covers fit the books? Yes -- for anyone already familiar with your work. I have no doubt that a number of customers were dissuaded from picking up books of suspense stories or television criticism by the appearance of fantasy material where none was in fact present.

I'm picturing myself back at the Kroch's counter now, and I'm hearing, "Nah, I don't care for books about Nazis."

I'll buy it myself because it's an Ellison book. And while reading it, I'll find out what makes the cover fit. But if the author happened to be Joe Doakes -- "Hmm, do I want to read a book about Nazis?"


Bests to all,

--tr


Tony Rabig
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 4:44 pm
Location: Parsons, KS

The cover

Postby Tony Rabig » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:48 am

Name: Tony Rabig
Source: unca20091009.htm
Harlan,

Back in the late Cretaceous when I was still working in libraries, I met the Dillons at some library function in Chicago and talked briefly with Diane Dillon about their covers for the Ace Specials. She said they didn't do that well in the marketplace because they weren't immediately recognizable as science fiction. And through the years many of those books have been reprinted and reprinted and reprinted, but with covers more easily recognizable as sf.

When I was still working at Kroch's and Brentano's in Chicago, I was there during the tail end of the publication of the Pyramid series (Dillon covers) and for the Ace series with covers by Barclay Shaw. Those covers fairly shrieked "Fantasy here!" and that was the case even with books like MEMOS FROM PURGATORY or the GLASS TEAT volumes. More than once, when suggesting them to a receptive customer, I saw an initial reaction of "Nah, I don't read fantasy/science fiction/weird stuff."

Did the covers fit the books? Yes -- for anyone already familiar with your work. I have no doubt that a number of customers were dissuaded from picking up books of suspense stories or television criticism by the appearance of fantasy material where none was in fact present.

I'm picturing myself back at the Kroch's counter now, and I'm hearing, "Nah, I don't care for books about Nazis."

I'll buy it myself because it's an Ellison book. And while reading it, I'll find out what makes the cover fit. But if the author happened to be Joe Doakes -- "Hmm, do I want to read a book about Nazis?"


Bests to all,

--tr


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Postby Moderator » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:58 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20091007.htm

(Rick's gonna tan my hide for not waiting the customary 24 hours, but today's an unpredictable day and seeing some of the reviews below my "Gawd I love that cover!" isn't terribly useful.)

So.


I love the cover.

Here's why: It's a bold, striking image which is sure to put people on edge. Even here on Harlan's site there's a better than 50% objection. This is good.

It fits Harlan's style, and also makes a mocking point of politics and the people in power. The swastika doesn't scare me -- the headless Fascist (presumably Hitler) is the message. I don't believe anyone who is pro-Nazism is going to see that cover and in any way think it's a compliment. In fact, it makes a pretty direct statement against such leadership, including a swipe -- oblique, but there -- towards our most recent leaders in THIS country. The typeface used is solid, though perhaps a bit uninspired. Harlan suggests this is going to change, so let's see the final before I commit on that element.

But otherwise, this is an eye-catching in-your-face edgy statement and one I think is brilliantly accomplished. It will certainly get attention, and yes some of it will be from our beloved detractors. (They would object to a Kodak commercial full of puppies if they thought Harlan wrote it.) But the artwork and title are pure Ellison and this is good.

Very good.



Now, about them contents...




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Postby Moderator » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:58 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20091009.htm

(Rick's gonna tan my hide for not waiting the customary 24 hours, but today's an unpredictable day and seeing some of the reviews below my "Gawd I love that cover!" isn't terribly useful.)

So.


I love the cover.

Here's why: It's a bold, striking image which is sure to put people on edge. Even here on Harlan's site there's a better than 50% objection. This is good.

It fits Harlan's style, and also makes a mocking point of politics and the people in power. The swastika doesn't scare me -- the headless Fascist (presumably Hitler) is the message. I don't believe anyone who is pro-Nazism is going to see that cover and in any way think it's a compliment. In fact, it makes a pretty direct statement against such leadership, including a swipe -- oblique, but there -- towards our most recent leaders in THIS country. The typeface used is solid, though perhaps a bit uninspired. Harlan suggests this is going to change, so let's see the final before I commit on that element.

But otherwise, this is an eye-catching in-your-face edgy statement and one I think is brilliantly accomplished. It will certainly get attention, and yes some of it will be from our beloved detractors. (They would object to a Kodak commercial full of puppies if they thought Harlan wrote it.) But the artwork and title are pure Ellison and this is good.

Very good.



Now, about them contents...




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FinderDoug
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: Houston, TX
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The Cover

Postby FinderDoug » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:58 am

Name: FinderDoug
Source: unca20091007.htm
Harlan,

Too dangerous at this juncture in time?

If by juncture in time you mean because weve got an African American president, then yeah - its probably too dangerous for the knee-jerk crowd that assigns motive based on the color of one's socks, never mind the big swastika-adorned banner on the book cover. It's risky even for an enlightened crowd that might actually take two minutes to read the jacket copy in order to glean whether you're a noted futurist, a historian, a racist or a madman. The Nazi image is polarizing and open to interpretation, and like all art, we bring our own baggage to it.

I suppose the better question is, Dangerous for whom?

Youve had a hand in design work on your books going aaaaaaall the way back to Regency (and probably earlier). Youre no stranger to this part of the publishing game. You already KNOW that THIS painting on YOUR book is a pin-pulled grenade waiting to be rolled. And youve had six years to ponder what sits behind that image. We? We can only guess.

The HA! that Steve conveyed from you yesterday on the boards is as deep as the Mariana Trench, isnt it?

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FinderDoug
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

The Cover

Postby FinderDoug » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:58 am

Name: FinderDoug
Source: unca20091009.htm
Harlan,

Too dangerous at this juncture in time?

If by juncture in time you mean because weve got an African American president, then yeah - its probably too dangerous for the knee-jerk crowd that assigns motive based on the color of one's socks, never mind the big swastika-adorned banner on the book cover. It's risky even for an enlightened crowd that might actually take two minutes to read the jacket copy in order to glean whether you're a noted futurist, a historian, a racist or a madman. The Nazi image is polarizing and open to interpretation, and like all art, we bring our own baggage to it.

I suppose the better question is, Dangerous for whom?

Youve had a hand in design work on your books going aaaaaaall the way back to Regency (and probably earlier). Youre no stranger to this part of the publishing game. You already KNOW that THIS painting on YOUR book is a pin-pulled grenade waiting to be rolled. And youve had six years to ponder what sits behind that image. We? We can only guess.

The HA! that Steve conveyed from you yesterday on the boards is as deep as the Mariana Trench, isnt it?

TallyJohnson
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Chester, SC

A Fish-head in aspic

Postby TallyJohnson » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:06 am

Name: Tally
Source: unca20091007.htm
Great art, bad book cover. But that's just my opinion, such as it is. Hell, I'm going to buy the book regardless.

Yay for more Harlan!


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