Pavilion Digest: August 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Graham
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:25 pm

Postby Graham » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:23 am

Name: Graham Rae
Source: unca20091007.htm
"Politics, religion, literary analysis, writing agendas, looks out the window on the Human Condition in general, sans bile if possible, are a MUST here"

Sorry about the 'sans bile' part, Harlan; this post may not entirely fill that condition. I am tired of the American attacks on Scotland about an event of world importance in the media over the last couple of daze. Here is the text of a letter I sent to the misguided organization www.boycottscotland.com (and Alex Salmond, the First Minister for Scotland, and Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Minister) today. I believe America needs EDUCATED as to the political difference between Scotland and England, and it needs to shut its media-ill-educated mouth about this story. And if you regard me posting this here as an imposition, well, that's how we Scots are, combative people who don't take shit lying down. Disregard this if you want, people, but READ AND LEARN SOMETHING:




I am a Scotsman now resident in the Chicago suburbs for the last four years. I read with interest your 'boycott Scotland' rationale, but find it to be naive and flawed, without an understanding of Scottish-English politics in general.

First of all. Let me express my condolences to the families who lost family members or friends or people of whatever stripe in that vile tragedy. I see you almost mention as an afterthought that Scottish people died in that tragedy too, and I find this somewhat odd. It was not only Americans who died. Let's get things straight here. It was the ordinary Scottish people of Lockerbie who went to the crash site and picked up clothes and belongings of dead passengers and washed them so that the American families could salvage something of their loved ones. This is an act of extreme humanity, mindful of the feelings of the loved ones, and is no small thing. Which is why i think your campaign is wrong, though I can understand the anger, however misplaced against the Scottish people, in its inception and execution.

First of all. The Scottish Parliament must be separated from the English government, though technically the 'British' government includes Scotland too; the Scots are technically British. The Scottish Parliament, which has only been in existence for 10 years, asked advice on this matter from England. And received none. It was only right they asked for advice, because THE ENGLISH GOVERNMENT were the ones who created the whole debacle that Scotland was left to carry the can for. It was the evil Tony Blair's behind-the-scenes machinations with regard to oil and airplane sales to Libya that started off the whole Prisoner Transfer Agreement, and Scotland WAS NOT privy to these meetings. See, New Labour, Tony Blair's party, were voted OUT of power in Scotland after half a century because of the way the public perceived that Blair messed us around and screwed us over. Which he has done again, from beyond his Presidency, sorry Prime Ministership, and he will never be forgiven or forgotten by Scotland for what he has done to us. Interesting that nobody in the media has asked for HIS side of the story, as he, the reptilian Peter Mandelson, the Queen and Prince Andrew were the ones meeting with the Libyans to discuss renewing trade with the North African pariahs. It's all about oil and money, sadly, as ever, just like in Iraq.

Now. When New Labour was voted out of Scotland in 2007, they were in disbelief. They thought they had a stronghold forever in that once-Labour country, but screwed Scotland over so grievously in so many ways during the Blair years that Scots voted to get rid of them. The whole Prisoner Transfer Agreement, created before the Scottish National Party came to power, was the thing that carried al-Megrahi back to Libya. But Kenny MacAskill was the one who had to make a decision that had basically been made for him by Westminster years before, with Tony Blair shaking hands with Gadaffi and blood and oil dripping off their hands. Because New Labour were voted out of Scotland, there is a sense of glee and schadenfreude in Westminster that they got MacAskill to do their dirty work for them and smeared Scotland in the process. Scotland's Parliament only has very limited powers compared to Westminster, their political (puppet)masters, and MacAskill's hands were basically tied in this whole thing. He denied the transfer to Libya twice, but somebody over his head somewhere must have had a word in his ear about the geopolitical and oil ramifications of his actions and forced his hand. See, what you people are missing, with your naive assumption that the Scottish and English Parliaments operate in conjunction with each other freely and easily, is the old enmity between Scotland and England. It's like if Canada and America were somehow politically intertwined, Canada telling America what to do, it being a bad decision, and America having to carry the can for it as Canada laughed, rubbing their hands in glee at their evil vile machinations and maneuverings behind the scenes to politically smear America and escape free of responsibility for their actions.

The Scottish-English 302-year alliance (bought by England with rigged Scottish votes in the 1707 Act of Union, thus creating the 'United Kingdom') has been under strain for a good few years recently (you could argue it's been under strain for 302 years were you so cynical) and it's no mistake that the relations between Scotland and England are so strained. England is basically regarded as an occupying force by most Scots, who want independence. The ONLY reason England stays in the Union with Scotland (the Union being talked up positively by corporate puppets like Blair and Brown) is to milk Scotland of its North Sea oil revenues. Once again, it's about oil and money. There is no love lost between the Scots and English, and most of us wish we could be rid of them, regarding them as bullying and condescending and corrupt to the core. Which they have once again proved with their maneuvering in this sensitive geopolitical travesty and tragedy. Kenny MacAskill and Scotland HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. The decision to release Megrahi was made behind closed doors years ago in England by Tony Blair and Gadaffi, whose son now swans around on yachts with slimy Mandelson and a good time is had by all. But the ENGLISH government is not the SCOTTISH government. A cursory examination of Alex Salmond's (the Scottish First Minister) dealings with Westminster over the last couple of years will show that he has been a constant thorn in their side, so their joy at stabbing the SNP on the world stage and getting away with this vile garbage will be boundless.

And so you want to punish Scotland for ENGLISH machinations. This is why I find your campaign naive and wrong-headed, if, as I said, totally understandable. You want to strike out at the people you perceive as having wronged you (as they have wronged Scottish relatives as well, as well as the other nationalities that died on that plane) and will do so economically. But the only people who will suffer are the people of Scotland, not the people who created this mess, Westminster, or even the SNP, who you perceive to be the same as New Labour somehow. I would urge you to rethink your position. Scotland and America have always gotten along, and the Americans love the Scots and are very proud of their Celtic heritage, as I encounter on a daily basis in my dealings with the fine American people in the Midwest I meet in my job dealing with the public. But the American public are only being fed selected edited half-chewed simplistic soundbites about this whole situation, and their knowledge of the strained relationship between Scotland and England, British politics, and the fact it was Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson and their sleazy mendacious Westminster ilk who engineered this whole sick smear campaign and confrontation, is seemingly nonexistent. Scotland asked for advice in this whole matter from Westminster. They received NONE WHATSOEVER. Does that sound like a government in perfect conspiratorial synch to you? They received no help (and the scottish Parliament has only been in existence for a decade, whilst its big evil brother has been in existence for endless decision-making centuries) because Westminster KNEW the outcome (announced it the week before Scotland did, oddly enough, as if they somehow knew what it would be - funny that, eh?), had engineered it, and wanted to laugh at Scotland as we got the undeserved blood and egg on our faces and hands. We will not forgive or forget this treachery. We are tired of being treated like dirt by the English, and I can only hope this latest slap in the face, in a long line of face-slaps (random example - Tony Blair disbanded the Scottish army regiments into one - spit - 'super-regiment,' thus destroying centuries of proud Scottish military tradition - no wonder he got voted out) from England recently, will help push Scotland towards independence. Gordon Brown has been suspiciously silent through this whole sick pantomime. He's a Scotsman who is head of the UK and a great many English people do not like him because of this. He is partly staying silent because he cannot be seen to favor Scotland in any way, and thus be perceived as being a nationalistic 'Jock' (derogatory English term for the Scots). Plus he didn't engineer the whole mess anyway, his Messiah Complex predecessor did, so why should he talk about it? Tony Blair is the person you people should be pressing for answers, NOT Brown. But where is he anyway? America? Getting paid in the blood money that he earned with the Iraq war and other acts of sedition he pulled whilst in office. Find him and you'll get an answer or three, trust me. And I hardly think America is in any position to be righteous about oil acquisition. Why do you think Bush sent America to Iraq (and the much-overused Scottish soldiers were right behind the Americans in the assault on Fallujah) and all those people died in the first place?

So. I think this explains why I do not think you should be advocating boycotting Scotland. The Scottish people love America; I myself do, and moved here. I love my life here. But the vile outpouring of media-fed anger towards my home country over here in the last couple of days since that Megrahi decision has been sickening and saddening and has forced me to write this email. I don't know if I will have helped to illuminate any of the issues at hand here. You really have to be Scottish to understand some of the political and social history and subtleties of this whole event, I believe. I do not think it is right that Alex Salmond was not at MacAskill's side when he made that speech about the decision to release that man to a vile hero's welcome back in Libya. I believe he should have been there, because if ever Scots needed to stand strong and tall and proud and work together it's now. And they should be working for independence from the Neighbors From Hell so that the Scots never have to suffer this kind of disgusting indignity again, and America, and the world, realize that Scotland and England are NOT the same entity politically and do NOT necessarily believe in the same things. Kenny MacAskill and Alex Salmond should, to me, be calling press conferences to make clear the whole role of English behind-the-scenes politricks (sic) in this whole mess, but they probably are not able to. So they'll just have to carry the can. But I will not stand by whilst my country is smeared and attacked by people who may have good - if anger-led - motives but an unclear view of the political situation.

Anyway. I believe I have made my point. I feel sick and sorry for the people of all nationalities who lost people in that vile tragedy. But don't lay the blame at Scotland's door. We don't deserve, want or need it.

Thank you for your time. Salmond and MacAskill, stand strong. The truth will out yet.

Sincerely,
Graham Rae.


Graham
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:25 pm

Postby Graham » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:23 am

Name: Graham Rae
Source: unca20091009.htm
"Politics, religion, literary analysis, writing agendas, looks out the window on the Human Condition in general, sans bile if possible, are a MUST here"

Sorry about the 'sans bile' part, Harlan; this post may not entirely fill that condition. I am tired of the American attacks on Scotland about an event of world importance in the media over the last couple of daze. Here is the text of a letter I sent to the misguided organization www.boycottscotland.com (and Alex Salmond, the First Minister for Scotland, and Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Minister) today. I believe America needs EDUCATED as to the political difference between Scotland and England, and it needs to shut its media-ill-educated mouth about this story. And if you regard me posting this here as an imposition, well, that's how we Scots are, combative people who don't take shit lying down. Disregard this if you want, people, but READ AND LEARN SOMETHING:




I am a Scotsman now resident in the Chicago suburbs for the last four years. I read with interest your 'boycott Scotland' rationale, but find it to be naive and flawed, without an understanding of Scottish-English politics in general.

First of all. Let me express my condolences to the families who lost family members or friends or people of whatever stripe in that vile tragedy. I see you almost mention as an afterthought that Scottish people died in that tragedy too, and I find this somewhat odd. It was not only Americans who died. Let's get things straight here. It was the ordinary Scottish people of Lockerbie who went to the crash site and picked up clothes and belongings of dead passengers and washed them so that the American families could salvage something of their loved ones. This is an act of extreme humanity, mindful of the feelings of the loved ones, and is no small thing. Which is why i think your campaign is wrong, though I can understand the anger, however misplaced against the Scottish people, in its inception and execution.

First of all. The Scottish Parliament must be separated from the English government, though technically the 'British' government includes Scotland too; the Scots are technically British. The Scottish Parliament, which has only been in existence for 10 years, asked advice on this matter from England. And received none. It was only right they asked for advice, because THE ENGLISH GOVERNMENT were the ones who created the whole debacle that Scotland was left to carry the can for. It was the evil Tony Blair's behind-the-scenes machinations with regard to oil and airplane sales to Libya that started off the whole Prisoner Transfer Agreement, and Scotland WAS NOT privy to these meetings. See, New Labour, Tony Blair's party, were voted OUT of power in Scotland after half a century because of the way the public perceived that Blair messed us around and screwed us over. Which he has done again, from beyond his Presidency, sorry Prime Ministership, and he will never be forgiven or forgotten by Scotland for what he has done to us. Interesting that nobody in the media has asked for HIS side of the story, as he, the reptilian Peter Mandelson, the Queen and Prince Andrew were the ones meeting with the Libyans to discuss renewing trade with the North African pariahs. It's all about oil and money, sadly, as ever, just like in Iraq.

Now. When New Labour was voted out of Scotland in 2007, they were in disbelief. They thought they had a stronghold forever in that once-Labour country, but screwed Scotland over so grievously in so many ways during the Blair years that Scots voted to get rid of them. The whole Prisoner Transfer Agreement, created before the Scottish National Party came to power, was the thing that carried al-Megrahi back to Libya. But Kenny MacAskill was the one who had to make a decision that had basically been made for him by Westminster years before, with Tony Blair shaking hands with Gadaffi and blood and oil dripping off their hands. Because New Labour were voted out of Scotland, there is a sense of glee and schadenfreude in Westminster that they got MacAskill to do their dirty work for them and smeared Scotland in the process. Scotland's Parliament only has very limited powers compared to Westminster, their political (puppet)masters, and MacAskill's hands were basically tied in this whole thing. He denied the transfer to Libya twice, but somebody over his head somewhere must have had a word in his ear about the geopolitical and oil ramifications of his actions and forced his hand. See, what you people are missing, with your naive assumption that the Scottish and English Parliaments operate in conjunction with each other freely and easily, is the old enmity between Scotland and England. It's like if Canada and America were somehow politically intertwined, Canada telling America what to do, it being a bad decision, and America having to carry the can for it as Canada laughed, rubbing their hands in glee at their evil vile machinations and maneuverings behind the scenes to politically smear America and escape free of responsibility for their actions.

The Scottish-English 302-year alliance (bought by England with rigged Scottish votes in the 1707 Act of Union, thus creating the 'United Kingdom') has been under strain for a good few years recently (you could argue it's been under strain for 302 years were you so cynical) and it's no mistake that the relations between Scotland and England are so strained. England is basically regarded as an occupying force by most Scots, who want independence. The ONLY reason England stays in the Union with Scotland (the Union being talked up positively by corporate puppets like Blair and Brown) is to milk Scotland of its North Sea oil revenues. Once again, it's about oil and money. There is no love lost between the Scots and English, and most of us wish we could be rid of them, regarding them as bullying and condescending and corrupt to the core. Which they have once again proved with their maneuvering in this sensitive geopolitical travesty and tragedy. Kenny MacAskill and Scotland HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. The decision to release Megrahi was made behind closed doors years ago in England by Tony Blair and Gadaffi, whose son now swans around on yachts with slimy Mandelson and a good time is had by all. But the ENGLISH government is not the SCOTTISH government. A cursory examination of Alex Salmond's (the Scottish First Minister) dealings with Westminster over the last couple of years will show that he has been a constant thorn in their side, so their joy at stabbing the SNP on the world stage and getting away with this vile garbage will be boundless.

And so you want to punish Scotland for ENGLISH machinations. This is why I find your campaign naive and wrong-headed, if, as I said, totally understandable. You want to strike out at the people you perceive as having wronged you (as they have wronged Scottish relatives as well, as well as the other nationalities that died on that plane) and will do so economically. But the only people who will suffer are the people of Scotland, not the people who created this mess, Westminster, or even the SNP, who you perceive to be the same as New Labour somehow. I would urge you to rethink your position. Scotland and America have always gotten along, and the Americans love the Scots and are very proud of their Celtic heritage, as I encounter on a daily basis in my dealings with the fine American people in the Midwest I meet in my job dealing with the public. But the American public are only being fed selected edited half-chewed simplistic soundbites about this whole situation, and their knowledge of the strained relationship between Scotland and England, British politics, and the fact it was Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson and their sleazy mendacious Westminster ilk who engineered this whole sick smear campaign and confrontation, is seemingly nonexistent. Scotland asked for advice in this whole matter from Westminster. They received NONE WHATSOEVER. Does that sound like a government in perfect conspiratorial synch to you? They received no help (and the scottish Parliament has only been in existence for a decade, whilst its big evil brother has been in existence for endless decision-making centuries) because Westminster KNEW the outcome (announced it the week before Scotland did, oddly enough, as if they somehow knew what it would be - funny that, eh?), had engineered it, and wanted to laugh at Scotland as we got the undeserved blood and egg on our faces and hands. We will not forgive or forget this treachery. We are tired of being treated like dirt by the English, and I can only hope this latest slap in the face, in a long line of face-slaps (random example - Tony Blair disbanded the Scottish army regiments into one - spit - 'super-regiment,' thus destroying centuries of proud Scottish military tradition - no wonder he got voted out) from England recently, will help push Scotland towards independence. Gordon Brown has been suspiciously silent through this whole sick pantomime. He's a Scotsman who is head of the UK and a great many English people do not like him because of this. He is partly staying silent because he cannot be seen to favor Scotland in any way, and thus be perceived as being a nationalistic 'Jock' (derogatory English term for the Scots). Plus he didn't engineer the whole mess anyway, his Messiah Complex predecessor did, so why should he talk about it? Tony Blair is the person you people should be pressing for answers, NOT Brown. But where is he anyway? America? Getting paid in the blood money that he earned with the Iraq war and other acts of sedition he pulled whilst in office. Find him and you'll get an answer or three, trust me. And I hardly think America is in any position to be righteous about oil acquisition. Why do you think Bush sent America to Iraq (and the much-overused Scottish soldiers were right behind the Americans in the assault on Fallujah) and all those people died in the first place?

So. I think this explains why I do not think you should be advocating boycotting Scotland. The Scottish people love America; I myself do, and moved here. I love my life here. But the vile outpouring of media-fed anger towards my home country over here in the last couple of days since that Megrahi decision has been sickening and saddening and has forced me to write this email. I don't know if I will have helped to illuminate any of the issues at hand here. You really have to be Scottish to understand some of the political and social history and subtleties of this whole event, I believe. I do not think it is right that Alex Salmond was not at MacAskill's side when he made that speech about the decision to release that man to a vile hero's welcome back in Libya. I believe he should have been there, because if ever Scots needed to stand strong and tall and proud and work together it's now. And they should be working for independence from the Neighbors From Hell so that the Scots never have to suffer this kind of disgusting indignity again, and America, and the world, realize that Scotland and England are NOT the same entity politically and do NOT necessarily believe in the same things. Kenny MacAskill and Alex Salmond should, to me, be calling press conferences to make clear the whole role of English behind-the-scenes politricks (sic) in this whole mess, but they probably are not able to. So they'll just have to carry the can. But I will not stand by whilst my country is smeared and attacked by people who may have good - if anger-led - motives but an unclear view of the political situation.

Anyway. I believe I have made my point. I feel sick and sorry for the people of all nationalities who lost people in that vile tragedy. But don't lay the blame at Scotland's door. We don't deserve, want or need it.

Thank you for your time. Salmond and MacAskill, stand strong. The truth will out yet.

Sincerely,
Graham Rae.


reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Boycotting Scotland

Postby reddragon70 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:37 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091007.htm
I find it interesting that the US media has got it into its rather narrowminded head that a boycot of all things Scottish is what is needed in retaliation to the freeing of the Lockerbie bomber. Is this perhaps just more lowbrow journalism appealling to the lowest common denominator of the US public? Do the great unwashed of the USA actually understand that, once again, theyre being fed a lie or at the very best a half truth?

As was brilliantly pointed out, the Scottish government did not order the freeing of Al Magrahi. That was the Westminster Goverenment. In fact that move has rather angered the people of Scotland, where I live in particular as its only about 20 miles to Lockerbie. Not to put too fine a point on it, the scars are still fresh here even after 20 years.

As for a boycot? Well come on, is that not just a tad rediculous? Its not like Scotland is some "Evil Empire" intent on destroying the American way of life. We are just a small country of about 5 million souls struggling to survive against a global recession. Yes it would hurt us if the US decided not to buy our whiskey or textiles and decided to avoid our golf courses. But you would be shooting a friend in order to try and hit an enemy who is nowhere near you. Not very clever.

Of course a boycot should really extend to all things Scottish. So lets see what that includes shall we?
Television - invented by a Scot
Telephone - Invented by a Scot
Penicillin - Discovered by a Scot
Whiskey - Distilled in Scotland
Golf - Invented in Scotland
Iain Banks - A rather good Scottish author of mainstream and SF literature
Robert Burns - A quite well known Scottish poet
Sir Walter Scott - a Well known Scottish Author
I could go on but I feel the point is made. If you want to boycott something, you have to do it completely and not pick and choose which parts to avoid and what you are going to keep.

Also if you are going down that road, at least aim at the right target and dont insult people who were also deeply hurt by those events.

Just my tuppence worth.

reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Boycotting Scotland

Postby reddragon70 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:37 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091009.htm
I find it interesting that the US media has got it into its rather narrowminded head that a boycot of all things Scottish is what is needed in retaliation to the freeing of the Lockerbie bomber. Is this perhaps just more lowbrow journalism appealling to the lowest common denominator of the US public? Do the great unwashed of the USA actually understand that, once again, theyre being fed a lie or at the very best a half truth?

As was brilliantly pointed out, the Scottish government did not order the freeing of Al Magrahi. That was the Westminster Goverenment. In fact that move has rather angered the people of Scotland, where I live in particular as its only about 20 miles to Lockerbie. Not to put too fine a point on it, the scars are still fresh here even after 20 years.

As for a boycot? Well come on, is that not just a tad rediculous? Its not like Scotland is some "Evil Empire" intent on destroying the American way of life. We are just a small country of about 5 million souls struggling to survive against a global recession. Yes it would hurt us if the US decided not to buy our whiskey or textiles and decided to avoid our golf courses. But you would be shooting a friend in order to try and hit an enemy who is nowhere near you. Not very clever.

Of course a boycot should really extend to all things Scottish. So lets see what that includes shall we?
Television - invented by a Scot
Telephone - Invented by a Scot
Penicillin - Discovered by a Scot
Whiskey - Distilled in Scotland
Golf - Invented in Scotland
Iain Banks - A rather good Scottish author of mainstream and SF literature
Robert Burns - A quite well known Scottish poet
Sir Walter Scott - a Well known Scottish Author
I could go on but I feel the point is made. If you want to boycott something, you have to do it completely and not pick and choose which parts to avoid and what you are going to keep.

Also if you are going down that road, at least aim at the right target and dont insult people who were also deeply hurt by those events.

Just my tuppence worth.

User avatar
David Loftus
Posts: 3182
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Boycott! Boycott!

Postby David Loftus » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:53 am

Name: David Loftus
Source: unca20091007.htm
Not to mention the early James Bond and third Indiana Jones pictures . . . .

User avatar
David Loftus
Posts: 3182
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
Contact:

Boycott! Boycott!

Postby David Loftus » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:53 am

Name: David Loftus
Source: unca20091009.htm
Not to mention the early James Bond and third Indiana Jones pictures . . . .

stevendooner
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:24 pm

Okay, I'll say it.

Postby stevendooner » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:51 am

Name: Steve Dooner
Source: unca20091007.htm
I have read numbers of people saying that they denounce demonstrative practices and impolite protest in all cases, and I cannot take it anymore.

There is a major, obvious (glaring!) difference between Move On, Code Pink and Medea Benjamin and the Healthcare Town Hall protestors. They are not the same. They have never been the same, and none of you can make me think they're the same.

The town hall protestors are a mob that has been whipped up by the likes of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and, in Boston, Jay Severin. Their heads are filled with misinformation, and they are, often, just one smidge shy of Kristalnacht. They were produced by money and power and they are using means that non-violent public agitators would never dream of. I'm not sure many of have you read "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" or even "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience." Demonstartions are appropriate when all constructive means of negotiation have failed. These Town Hall Protestors pre-empted the constructive process and skipped right to semi-violent confrontation.

After our elected officials unifomrly voted for an unnecessary war, the peace movement was left without town halls or opportunities for discussion. The Left protestors of the past eight years never threatened violence, and they were not proceeding on misinformation (The Iraq War and the Patriot act are, as far as I can tell, real, while prospective "death panel" legislation is not).

But the big difference is that Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore, et al. were powerless to make change. They did not win a David and Goliath battle against the establishment. All of their public demonstrations and Guerilla Theater were utterly ineffectual. We are, afterall, still at war.

I am not suggesting that there was a significant conspiracy here (save for a few insurance company employees told to make themselves heard at town halls), but there was a brobdingnagian agit-prop effort. The activists the 1960s would shudder at the proportions of this "guerilla theater." Barack "Adolf" Obama had fooolishly invited a vigorous and civil debate that Fox and our right wing radio hosts used, opportunistically, to derail his presidency. They even declared ahead of time that they would make it his "Waterloo," and somehow, magically, the following week there were images all over the news of terrified and discontented people afraid of Mother Russia marching onto our shores.

The "Obama is Nazi" and "the public option makes us communist Russia" memes were pushed by a very powerful propaganda machine--something Move-on and Medea Bejamin could never access. This was not an instance of Sam Adams watering the liberty tree or of Common Sense being passed surreptitiously among the colonists. It more closely resembled a marketing strategy that produced a shopping rush to buy Power Rangers or "Tickle me" Elmo Dolls.

Clearly, the frightened 80 year old protestors were not powerful in themselves, but they were made afraid by powerful moneyed interests and not by Obama's proposals. They were exploited so perfectly that I am afraid we have once again derailed healthcare reform in this country. (Breaking up the insurance companies' strangle-hold is no more a socialistic act than anti-trust legislation in the nineteenth century.)

It is always funny to see the little guy take down the big jock with verbal wit, while it is never funny seeing the big jock slam said little guy against a locker--no matter how much his pals on the football team may giggle at the act. To say that these the left protests against the Iraq War and the Town Hall protestors fails to consider whether power or wisdom has prevailed.

Steve Dooner

stevendooner
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:24 pm

Okay, I'll say it.

Postby stevendooner » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:51 am

Name: Steve Dooner
Source: unca20091009.htm
I have read numbers of people saying that they denounce demonstrative practices and impolite protest in all cases, and I cannot take it anymore.

There is a major, obvious (glaring!) difference between Move On, Code Pink and Medea Benjamin and the Healthcare Town Hall protestors. They are not the same. They have never been the same, and none of you can make me think they're the same.

The town hall protestors are a mob that has been whipped up by the likes of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and, in Boston, Jay Severin. Their heads are filled with misinformation, and they are, often, just one smidge shy of Kristalnacht. They were produced by money and power and they are using means that non-violent public agitators would never dream of. I'm not sure many of have you read "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" or even "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience." Demonstartions are appropriate when all constructive means of negotiation have failed. These Town Hall Protestors pre-empted the constructive process and skipped right to semi-violent confrontation.

After our elected officials unifomrly voted for an unnecessary war, the peace movement was left without town halls or opportunities for discussion. The Left protestors of the past eight years never threatened violence, and they were not proceeding on misinformation (The Iraq War and the Patriot act are, as far as I can tell, real, while prospective "death panel" legislation is not).

But the big difference is that Medea Benjamin, Michael Moore, et al. were powerless to make change. They did not win a David and Goliath battle against the establishment. All of their public demonstrations and Guerilla Theater were utterly ineffectual. We are, afterall, still at war.

I am not suggesting that there was a significant conspiracy here (save for a few insurance company employees told to make themselves heard at town halls), but there was a brobdingnagian agit-prop effort. The activists the 1960s would shudder at the proportions of this "guerilla theater." Barack "Adolf" Obama had fooolishly invited a vigorous and civil debate that Fox and our right wing radio hosts used, opportunistically, to derail his presidency. They even declared ahead of time that they would make it his "Waterloo," and somehow, magically, the following week there were images all over the news of terrified and discontented people afraid of Mother Russia marching onto our shores.

The "Obama is Nazi" and "the public option makes us communist Russia" memes were pushed by a very powerful propaganda machine--something Move-on and Medea Bejamin could never access. This was not an instance of Sam Adams watering the liberty tree or of Common Sense being passed surreptitiously among the colonists. It more closely resembled a marketing strategy that produced a shopping rush to buy Power Rangers or "Tickle me" Elmo Dolls.

Clearly, the frightened 80 year old protestors were not powerful in themselves, but they were made afraid by powerful moneyed interests and not by Obama's proposals. They were exploited so perfectly that I am afraid we have once again derailed healthcare reform in this country. (Breaking up the insurance companies' strangle-hold is no more a socialistic act than anti-trust legislation in the nineteenth century.)

It is always funny to see the little guy take down the big jock with verbal wit, while it is never funny seeing the big jock slam said little guy against a locker--no matter how much his pals on the football team may giggle at the act. To say that these the left protests against the Iraq War and the Town Hall protestors fails to consider whether power or wisdom has prevailed.

Steve Dooner

Greg Hurd

Postby Greg Hurd » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:09 am

Name: Greg Hurd
Source: unca20091007.htm
Steve-Right on target. However, I initially read your post too quickly and came up with Tickle Me Limbaugh, an image I'm having a hard time escaping.

Greg Hurd

Postby Greg Hurd » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:09 am

Name: Greg Hurd
Source: unca20091009.htm
Steve-Right on target. However, I initially read your post too quickly and came up with Tickle Me Limbaugh, an image I'm having a hard time escaping.

stevendooner
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:24 pm

Correction

Postby stevendooner » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:35 am

Name: Steve Dooner
Source: unca20091007.htm
Last sentence should read:

"Saying that these the left protests against the Iraq War and the Town Hall protestors are the same fails to consider whether power or wisdom has prevailed."

stevendooner
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:24 pm

Correction

Postby stevendooner » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:35 am

Name: Steve Dooner
Source: unca20091009.htm
Last sentence should read:

"Saying that these the left protests against the Iraq War and the Town Hall protestors are the same fails to consider whether power or wisdom has prevailed."

Susan Ellison
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:20 pm

Postby Susan Ellison » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:42 am

Name: SUSAN ELLISON
Source: unca20091007.htm
Dear Jessie:

Bad mold!!!

Think we can help with most of the books.

As follows:

ANGRY CANDY. Hardcover. 3rd Printing. Houghton Mifflin. $25.00.

EDGEWORKS 1. Hardcover. Trade Paperback. White Wolf. $22.00.

EDGEWORKS 1 and 2. Trade Paperback. White Wolf. $18.00 each.

THE HARLAN ELLISON HORNBOOK. Hardcover. Penzler Books. $25.00.

HORNBOOK (Limited Edition with HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE). $90.00.

SLIPPAGE. Hardcover. 2nd Printing. Houghton Mifflin. $20.00.

Shipping: 1-3 books $5.00. 4 or more books $6.00.

CA tax 9.75%.

Checks made payable to: THE KILIMANJARO CORPORATION.

Ship to: THE KILIMANJARO CORPORATION, P.O. Box 55548, Sherman Oaks, CA 91413.

If you wish the books personalized, just let us know.

If you prefer, I can send you a full book list. Just send a
SASE to the above address.

Hope that helps...a little.

With much kindness--Susan

Susan Ellison
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:20 pm

Postby Susan Ellison » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:42 am

Name: SUSAN ELLISON
Source: unca20091009.htm
Dear Jessie:

Bad mold!!!

Think we can help with most of the books.

As follows:

ANGRY CANDY. Hardcover. 3rd Printing. Houghton Mifflin. $25.00.

EDGEWORKS 1. Hardcover. Trade Paperback. White Wolf. $22.00.

EDGEWORKS 1 and 2. Trade Paperback. White Wolf. $18.00 each.

THE HARLAN ELLISON HORNBOOK. Hardcover. Penzler Books. $25.00.

HORNBOOK (Limited Edition with HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE). $90.00.

SLIPPAGE. Hardcover. 2nd Printing. Houghton Mifflin. $20.00.

Shipping: 1-3 books $5.00. 4 or more books $6.00.

CA tax 9.75%.

Checks made payable to: THE KILIMANJARO CORPORATION.

Ship to: THE KILIMANJARO CORPORATION, P.O. Box 55548, Sherman Oaks, CA 91413.

If you wish the books personalized, just let us know.

If you prefer, I can send you a full book list. Just send a
SASE to the above address.

Hope that helps...a little.

With much kindness--Susan

Dennis C
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:23 pm

Postby Dennis C » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:50 am

Name: Dennis C
Source: unca20091007.htm
Steve Dooner --
Great post! You've hit the nail on the head.

I also get annoyed with those who say Obama's saying 'the same thing Democrats have said for ten years'. Yeah, so what? That doesn't make those things incorrect! If you want incorrect, look at all 8 years of Bush Jr.

I used to think no one was worse than N**** (not allowed to name the name here) or Reagan, but W beat 'em both.


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