Pavilion Digest: April 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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On Cheap Cynicism and The Modern Age

Postby Adam-Troy » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:16 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20090603.htm
Among the giants who have not yet manifested:

The technologist who figures out a renewable, non-polluting energy source.

The researcher who cures cancer.

The diplomat who finds a solution that pleases both the Arabs and the Israelis.

The leader whose treaty puts an end to the last war.

The innovator who solves world hunger.

first in a new generation of explorers, who walks on Mars.

The trailblazer whose accomplishment is so outside our current frame of reference that even those of us who have spent our careers in and around the field of science fiction have not yet imagined the brilliance of the his turning point.

Some of these have not been born yet (if they ever are). Some are no doubt walking among us now -- even if only as toddlers.

We could, of course, endorse your alternate view, that everything important has been done, that standards are dropping, and that nobody's achievement now deserves a place among the achievements of the past.

But that leaves us with a corollary.

That anybody who tries REALLY, REALLY hard to be an obnoxious irritant now ...

...anybody whose greatest aspiration now involves spitting in the eye of others...

...anybody who must do so anonymously now when the emptiness of anonymity has already been exposed and condemned... himself an exercise in providing a shallow echo of the past, is himself nothing more than a mote in the eye of the far more innovative obnoxious anonymous irritants we've already known.

Gordon: Seriously.

You're old news, wearing an old hat.

Been there. Done that.

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Postby Jan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:18 am

Name: Jan
Source: unca20090603.htm
And what a great example you are for things going downhill, Gordon. By the way, one message a day here.

Andrew Laubacher

Postby Andrew Laubacher » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:02 pm

Name: Andrew Laubacher
Source: unca20090603.htm
Gordon, you're use of the term "negro" immediately sends up red flags because the word as, for all practical purposes, lost its neutral connotation. You also oonfound me with your characterization of Frank Church as a liberal. Nothing against Mr. Church; but, "liberal" is not the first word that comes to my mind when his name comes up.

I'll readily give you a pass on your Scientology reference, though. I realize that you are making a comparison in it with a previous era. I also find that it seems as if a new Hollywood celebrity has been linked to the cult every time I turn around. If the story turns out to be true, I tend to deduct a few points from my estimate of said celeb's I.Q.

Dean Erickson

Handbasket now boarding.

Postby Dean Erickson » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:45 pm

Name: Dean Erickson
Source: unca20090603.htm
Real science fiction isn't dead. But we all need to send the black suit to the cleaners because it's going to be needed sooner than later. The idiots among you watching the television channel can leave now. The rest of you can drive over to Skywalker Ranch for your Forced colonics.
Science Fiction Art is now being done digitally. This means there is no real work of art.
One might purchase a print on a nice archival paper but then you own a copy of what?
The thing has become a gristmill for churning out corporate profit and you are all complicit. When you buy that darling little action figure you are throwing a shovel of dirt on the very thing you so endlessly, and if I may say, POORLY,defend and blather about untill I want to go to a con with a baseball bat!
I only began to read and love Science Fiction as an adult. The reasons are no business of yours. In the all too short time I have had to enjoy Science Fiction I have noted a marked decline in every aspect of it. 98% of the books are crap. 100% of the visual media representations are crap. The art? A trickle of it is still worth viewing and owning. Corporate Sci Fi has all but killed the visionary artist.
So please by all means prattle on about the little symptoms that annoy you so much. While you sit by and watch Science fiction become trivialized. Whored. And eventually become something like Comedia del Arte. An artifact.

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Postby Alan Coil » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:11 pm

Name: Alan Coil
Source: unca20090603.htm
Wow. A troll. I'm impressed...not.

Brian Phillips
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If this article has been mentioned already, sorry.

Postby Brian Phillips » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:53 pm

Name: Brian Phillips
Source: unca20090603.htm
"Science Fiction's Greatest Stolen Ideas"

Look for the entry that says "Terminator With a Glass Hand".

I haven't read a great deal of Science Fiction, so I cannot speak to the quality of the article (call for Stephen Phillieeeps!).

As for Gordon, come back "Jack Napier", all is forgiven! 'Twixt you and I, I preferred his Great Uncle Alan. He was a gentleman's gentleman.

Brian Phillips

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Postby M Jacka » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:31 pm

Name: Mike Jacka
Source: unca20090603.htm
If I may interrupt all this trolling with something completely different.

Today I surprised my wife by bringing her flowers. She still did not understand when I explained that we were celebrating 9,645. Thats 9,645 days. Yes, on this date, my wife has officially been married to me for half her life. The good news is she thinks thats a good thing.

A good thing I just felt like sharing.


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Postby shagin » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:35 pm

Name: shagin
Source: unca20090603.htm
GORDON - C- on your trolling. Nothing original for a critter that doesn't come out in the light of day.


DEAN - Folks have been touting the death of science fiction since the late '40s. Much like rock 'n' roll, taste is subjective and ever changing.


BARNEY - Very nice post, sir.


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Postby Duane » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:27 pm

Name: Duane
Source: unca20090603.htm
Adam-Troy: Very nice, inspiring post. As the Proverb saith (or paraphraseth): "Where there is no vision, the people perish."

Travis Yoder

My thirty-first post here

Postby Travis Yoder » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:42 pm

Name: Travis Yoder
Source: unca20090603.htm
HARLAN, were you aware of a place in Ellison Bay, Wisconsin with a barn actually registered as Ellison Wonderland LLC? Its a pretty nice-lookin barn. Apparently they rent it out for events. Check it out here:


MIKE JACKA, thats worth sharing and congratulations indeed. Youre a braver man than I to risk matrimony. Are you marking your calendar 9,645 days from now so you wont forget the 2/3 mark? (She may be!)


ADAM-TROY-CAS-TRO- (did I leave one out?), beautiful response to Gordon, sir. Concise. Clear-eyed. Cogent. Salient. Next to our host, I think your posts here hit the sweet spot best for me. I gotta read one of your books! Which would you recommend I start with?


JOSH OLSӨN (see, problem solved), speaking of Candy Stripers--I know you werent, but I was--Exploding Kinetoscope has this smart, funny film analysis of it in context of the anti-establishment sentiment of the times, and its all the funnier for being mostly serious: ... re-in.html


DEAN ERICKSON, I respect that you feel and express strongly about your position of most science fiction today being crap, but I must posit that twas ever thus. Readers call it Sturgeons Law, as you may know. We dont remember most of the crap published in the last one hundred years because it wasnt as well received, celebrated, awarded, collected, reprinted or studied for college theses, unlike the works of Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov, Silverberg, Ellison, etc. So we think of the past as some golden era where everything produced was sterling and immortal. The fact is most of the crap being written now will fade into obscurity as well, and the handful of high-worthies will continue to engage. At some point in the future, this time will become part of the falsely idealized good old days. It never fails.

Some things are worse; some things are better. Nostalgia is a lie.



-- Travis, I thought it was clear I wasn't referring exclusively or particularly to you

WHO said you were? You did personalize your post, however, with a pointless dig at me.

-- but in your case the phrase was I wanted to say that if we could merely adopt a perspective of acceptance--...--on the animal horror that is humanity ...we would all be dancing cheerfully etc.

YEAH, thats not quite what I said, is it? Why twist my words?

-- (Hey, great idea. Will you also be selling the dope?)

SEVERAL of us were sharing thoughts on an interesting topic. Im all for the friendly snarkiness one finds here in rich abundance, but youre just being snide and contemptuous. Why?

-- You were likening humans to animals and making both look bad at the same time.

ONCE again, I was not likening; I was identifying. My whole point is not to make a base judgment about it, but to accept that animals we call people are as they are, generally, because they are programmed by nature to be as they are.

-- Are you an animal, Travis?

YES, I am. As are you. And all humans. Or are you something different? A plant? A robot? A rock? Have you not a skeleton, musculature, blood, skin, organs, senses and instincts? What is that if not an animal? This is basic biology.

-- And what gave you the idea I'm against "philosophizing" in general?

WELL, I guess because you wrote No need to philosophize. If you meant on this subject specifically, I differ strongly with you there. My word, if pondering the nature of man and ones attitude toward humanity does not make one occasionally philosophical, what on earth will?

-- I love to see people taking their first intellectual steps here

IM trying to detect a wink there somewhere, but youre just being smug. What the hell is your problem?

-- as long as they stop likening humans or stupid people or whomever to animals.

YOU clearly have a bug up your butt about animals. I will express my opinion of them, which includes us, howsoever I please, thanks. I doubt the A.S.P.C.A. minds; why should you?

-- Be nice to me.

I was nice. I wasnt even addressing you at first. You lashed out at me, so I responded with humor. Youve lashed out at me again. You cant do that to people and then chide them for their inevitable backlash. You dont seem to know what nice is. Since you dont know what a human is, this perhaps should not be surprising. Since you respect non-human animals more, I recommend you click on the dancing hamsters and listen to that frisky, upbeat Sing a Simple Song video about 50 times. Could do wonders for your attitude. Hi-dee-hi-dee-ho, hi-dee-hey!


Lets test that shift key out some more, shall we,

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Negroes and Eisenhower

Postby Dennis C » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:52 pm

Name: Dennis C
Source: unca20090603.htm
Eye-Zen-Hower????? Eye-Zen-Hower???? Well I was born under that allegedly illustrious gentleman's presidency and I have no respect for him. FDR, sure. Truman, at times. But Eye-Zen-Hower? Geez, that's so retro it's anti-retro.

I'll take Obama any day of the week over Eisenhower. Also over Ronnie Ray-gun. I met that bonzo, er, bozo and he was a moron. I also interviewed his astrologer. Yeah, bring back all that lovely presidential astrology. That's the way to run a country.

I'll applaud the negro any day over them.

Oh, let me just ask my Negro friends how they feel about that term today.

Erg. Urgh. Urkh. No, they don't like it much.

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Postby Doc » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:56 pm

Name: Doc
Source: unca20090603.htm
Travis: You can do no better (I think) than to go purchase EMISSARIES FROM THE DEAD, and follow it promptly with THE THIRD CLAW OF GOD. I'd been an admirer of A-TC's writing merely from his posts hereabouts, but the Andrea Cort novels opened my eyes to the man's awesome talent and sheer invention. I cannot summon sufficient superlatives for these novels and look forward to tracking down his other work!


I've been reading THE MARTIAN CHILD, and am simply unable to conjure the necessary venom to to take Gordon/Dean to task. What venom I DO have, I must reserve for the "attorney" responsible for handling the probate of my mom's will - after two months of silence, he "needs" 3 grand up front to do the job, it seems. Hell, two months ago, I had the money - now I have to go to the bank with my freaking house as collateral! David Gerrold doesn't know it, but he might be saving me from a breakdown of some sort. I must remember to send a "thank you" note...

A. Trebek, Jr.

Daily double!

Postby A. Trebek, Jr. » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:51 pm

Name: A. Trebek, Jr.
Source: unca20090603.htm
Mr. Dannelke: you asked Gordon --and that may, indeed, be his real name (for others who've questioned it) about his use of the word negro. Now, for the final jeopardy round, I'd like to ask about his use of the word liberal. To wit" "Church's other sentimental liberal stupidities." Sounds as if Gordon feels liberal tendancies are filthy and disgusting.

So as part of our daily double, we should also ask: Why does Gordon use the word liberal in a derogatory way?

Personally, I'd MUCH rather have a liberal amount of intelligence and love in the world. And in hearts and minds of elected, government officials, such as those in congress...and those holding the office of President and Vice President (wherein both intelligence and love were much lacking in the past administration, circa 2000-2008).

(Fade out to the tune of Greg Kihn's hit song from the '80s).
A. Trebek, Jr.

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Barney Dannelke
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a day later

Postby Barney Dannelke » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:32 am

Name: Barney Dannelke
Source: unca20090603.htm
*** A. Trebek *** If the anonymous white Gordon wants to disparage liberals I have no dog in that hunt. While I identify as a liberal I can understand and appreciate (in the abstract) how someone might associate that word with policies they don't see as helpful in the long run. I think they are usually wrong but, well, how shall I put this? It doesn't get my blood up. Poor choice there? My point exactly.

If the white Gordon (as opposed to the ofay Gordon, the honky Gordon, the cracker Gordon or some other decade contextualized or colored - in that he may be any color but I am sticking with white, like white-on-rice Gordon) wishes to hang on to a term almost all of us have jettisoned, because that term could PASS as respectful in 1944 but might not be so well received on Sugar Hill this week, well good luck with that. If his best defense is that the U.N.C.F. has not bothered to change the name on the letterhead (yet) then it's cool for his white bad self to hang back a good six decades and RE-re-appropriate the term.

Perhaps Walter Annenberg made them keep the name. I have no idea.

I have a pretty strong suspicion WHITE liberals were not the ones who decided that term was to be considered offensive but perhaps white Gordon has True Gen I'm not privy to. I grew up on the South Side of Milwaukee and while I remember Father Groppi pretty well I did not receive his church bulletins, so, I may have missed this memo to the other white liberals at large.

Have a really white non negro-ey day Gordon.

Sincerely - Barney Dannelke


Having pranked a few of you here on April Fool's days past on this board I smiled to see the meme has moved on to poor Neil. I thought these were VERY good and Neil seems to have received them in good spirit. ... s-are.html


Ezra - my point was NOT to cut Ozzy slack. My point was exactly the opposite. Even though I do know the second verse there. Which I would trade brain cells for almost anything else at this late date. Getting old is not a crime and neither is getting rich. But how you get rich often can be.

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Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:43 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20090603.htm
Gordon, you are so boring you are almost a smudge. But at least a smudge has a sense of meaning.

You must not go to the forums, because a quick trip in your crapmobile would find that the term Liberal fits my persona as much as smarts fits yours. I am an anarchist/libertarian socialist of the Chomsky, Zinn, enlightenment school. I loath liberals more than conservatives at times, because at least conservatives are honest about what they believe and how they actually think. Liberals bite their tongues, conservatives don't.

The history of liberalism is pretty sorry: from Wilson's red scare to FDR's rounding up of the Japanese, to Kennedy attacking south Vietnam--that's the history of modern liberalism. You can have that.

I am beyond the shoddy debates about soft power compared to hard power. I am against all power, except for the power of the individual, in a collective struggle, with democratic constraints agains tyranny, corporate or governmental.

Liberals want elite power structures, I want the end to all structures of power. Power is immoral and leads to evil. Power should be democratic--we should have no masters over our lives.

You got that Gordon. Fish the algae from your own pond before you notice the ripples on mine.

Hey Gordon, Mommy wants her tea. Get it or you know what will happen. The closet is mightly tight.


Laubacker, you don't know me either. Keep fishing.

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