Pavilion Digest: March 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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since he asked

Postby KOS » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:43 pm

Name: KOS
Source: unca20090314.htm
Carping? Querulous? Fussy?


Frank (the rest of youse can skip this, unless you really like historical minutiae):

I'm not trying to change your mind. I know you read a lot, and have a (more or less) open mind.

I approach the Mid East and Israel as subjects with trepidation.

I am not sure why you alluded to anti-semitism in your query, as I purposefully made no reference to anti-semitism. I referred to the endless and seemingly boundless human ability to indulge in xenophobia, and that it is my informed opinion (two cents worth) that much of the Middle East mess is rooted in that all too human predilection for xenophobia. We are all prone to it.

See below, on the Grand Mufti I referred to, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his role in the 1929 Palestine riots, with details on what happened in Hebron.

The source:

A quote:

"From 1922 through 1928 the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was relatively peaceful. However, in late 1928 a new phase of violence began with minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem. These arguments led to an outbreak of Arab violence in August 1929 when Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, fomented Arab hatred by accusing the Jews of endangering the mosques and other sites holy to Islam. Observers heard Husseini issue the call: Itback al-Yahud "Slaughter the Jews!"

On August 22, 1929 the leaders of the Yishuv met with the British Deputy High Commissioner to alert him of their fears of a large Arab riot. The British officials assured them that the government was in control of the situation. The following day the Riots of 1929 erupted throughout the Palestine Mandate, lasting for seven days.

On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa, and other parts of the country. The Old City of Jerusalem was hit particularly hard. By the next day, the Haganah was able to mount a defense and further attacks in Jerusalem were repulsed. But, the violence in Jerusalem generated rumors throughout the country, many carrying fabricated accounts of Jewish attempts to defile Muslim holy places, all to inflame the Arab residents. Villages were plundered and destroyed by Arab mobs. While attacks on Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa were thwarted by Jewish defenses, there were Jewish deaths in Hebron, where 67 Jewish men and women were slaughtered and Safed, where 18 Jews were killed, as well as scattered other losses totaling 133 Jewish deaths, with more than 300 wounded.

The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Israel. On the afternoon of Friday, August 23, 1929 Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage.

The dead Jews that day included Eliezer Dan Slonim, a man highly esteemed by the Arabs. He was the director of the local English-Palestine bank whose many clients were Arabs, and was the sole Jewish member of the Hebron Municipal Council. He had many friends among the Arab elders, who had promised to protect him. Twenty-two people died in Slonim's house that day including his wife and two young children."

Al-Husseini ran for the office of Mufti in 1922, and finished fourth in the voting. The British High Commissioner did indeed appoint him to the office, and actually added the modifier "Grand" to the title. So yes, the British played a leading role in his accession to power, though he was from a powerful and well connected family that had been so well before the British arrived in Palestine during and fter the First World War.

As for the PLO not allowing later Grand Muftis any political role, that may well have been the case once the PLO came into existence. There was no PLO in the 1920s and 1930s. The Grand Mufti at that time played a leading political role among the Arab community in Palestine. The British used him in that role.

Below is a source for this Grand Mufti's Second World War activites, to which I referred:

Source: ... _mufti.php


"At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.

With the collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, the Mufti moved to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war al-Husseini was indicted by Yugoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. The Mufti was never tried because the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal."

My original post tried to point out that trouble between Arab and Jew in Palestine predates any US involvement, or UN involvement. Whatever harmony may have once existed between those communities in Palestine was gone long before the UN came into existence, well before the USA played any significant role there.

Hard to believe now, when we straddle the globe like "Baby Huey" but within living memory the United States played a minimal role on the world stage, with an army that ranked seventeenth in size. History did not start in 1945. People hated each other long before we started interfering.

That's all.

Sorry for all this lengthy stuff.

I'll be quiet for a good long while now.




Postby Jordan » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:45 pm

Name: Jordan
Source: unca20090314.htm
No worries- hope you husbands condition turns out for the better.

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The Day The Earth Caught Fire

Postby Pogue » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:56 pm

Name: Pogue
Source: unca20090314.htm
Josh, shortly after The Fly came out, I had a meeting with Randall Kleiser who wanted me to write a re-make of The Day The Earth Caught Fire. I remember a screening of it being arranged for me and very much enjoying the film. I can't remember why the idea of the re-make dribbled away...probably other more interesting projects for me, but it could have been that I believe in the old John Huston adage: "Why do they always re-make our good films; why don't they re-make our bad ones?"

Oddly enough, the first films of mine that ever got made, a couple of Sherlock Holmes movies, Ed of the stars of The Day The Earth Caught Fire...played the butler Barrymore in my version of THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES.

Josh Olson
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Postby Josh Olson » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:37 pm

Name: Josh Olson
Source: unca20090314.htm

On the subject of Limbaugh, I say ditto. I think back to all the things I've said or felt about that repulsive waste of flesh Geo. W. Bush, and the words "I hope he fails" never crossed my mind. Was convinced he WOULD fail, no question. Limbaugh's comment, when he first made it, struck me as the textbook definition of traitorous. Honestly, I look forward to the fat fuck's slow and painful death. One can only hope that when it comes, it is accompanied by a moment of crystal clarity in which he grasps how very much he truly deserves what's happening to him just before he goes.

It has finally been proven by his own words, in terms even a child can grasp - Rush Limbaugh places his party above his country.


Huston was right. The thing that makes Day so grand is not its plot. It is the specifics of its writing and performances. I have no doubt that you - or another good writer - could craft a fine film using the same premise... but what would be the point? For whatever part you may have played in dribbling that one away... good work, sir.


The Cinematheque screening was my introduction to the film as well (or re-introduction, technically, since I'd seen it as a wee child, and not remembered much about it). The print the Cinematheque showed was lent to them by Joe Dante, who's loaning the same print to the New Beverly. I know Joe through a terrific website he runs - I shot a commentary for Day a while back that should be up soon.


Context is everything. What matters is not that the films and stories in question are violent, but what the context of that violence is.


Wrong again.

Mike Valerio


Postby Mike Valerio » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:20 pm

Name: Mike Valerio
Source: unca20090314.htm
I salute any broadcaster who can maintain an audience for seven decades, but I can't agree that Paul Harvey was "a great commentator" who helped further the causes of "history and learning".

Harvey was an entertainer who never let the truth get in the way of his folksy format. His "news" stories were frequently built on top of urban legends, tall tales, Biblical admonishments and other outright whoppers masquerading as the truth.

And, make no mistake, Paul Harvey's truth was a conservative truth. He was a defender of the odious Senator Joe McCarthy and a cheerleader for the Vietnam War (until the American people turned against it, at which point, he ran in the other direction). During the 1960s and 70s, when the Civil Rights and Women's Movements were making strides in making this country a better place for all its citizens, Harvey was a frequent and cranky critic. He railed against "permissiveness" on college campus and the Free Speech movement among youth in general. He was the prude at the party that was the Sexual Revolution and--while I have no facts to back this up--I'm guessing that he probably wasn't much of a fan of progressive writers like Harlan Ellison.

Also, Paul Harvey wasn't much open to hearing a contrary opinion, as evidenced by his choices of the guest hosts that he'd have sit in for him (Fred Thompson, Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, Tony Snow).

Paul Harvey may have had a unique voice, but that voice did not speak for everyone.

Seven decades is a long run. Maybe too long.

And that is the rest of the story.

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Postby Ben » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:00 am

Name: Ben Winfield
Source: unca20090314.htm
I enjoy the NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET movies in that "guilty pleasure" sort of way, fully aware what I'm watching is nonsense, but godDAMN they're fun as hell. It's like the very best kind of junk food.

Yes, it's a shame the character of Freddy Krueger degenerated into a bad comedian after the first two movies, but Robert Englund has to be the most loveably hammy actor in the horror genre since Vincent Price, and he makes even the worst of the series watchable. He has a lot more personality than most of the horror icons of today, which tend to be pale-faced Japanese ladies with a chip on their shoulders.

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On the radio

Postby Jazzman99 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:41 am

Name: Joe Walker
Source: unca20090314.htm
I may not have many--OK, any--of his political positions, but I can't help but have a soft spot in my heart for him, if only because of my dad. He's retired now, but he spent 30+ years as a trucker, working brutal hours at tough work for a company that treated him terribly. On many days the radio in his cab was his only comfort and his only contact with humanity, and Paul Harvey was absolutely his favorite thing on the radio.

There have been many days when my dad and I didn't seem to have much to talk about, but we could always talk a little baseball and we could always talk about the latest things we'd heard from Paul Harvey.

And it also should be said that while Harvey was conservative, he was never mean-spirited or petty about it, at least not that I ever heard. I'm dead certain he never wished for the failure of a president just because he was from a different party, or mocked someone for having a disease, or claimed that feminism was invented so ugly women could speak in public, etc etc etc. Let's not let the fact that Harvey and Limbaugh are both being discussed at the moment lead us into lumping them together.

Bottom line: I'll miss hearing Harvey. I can't imagine ever missing Limbaugh (or Hannity, or Coulter, or Liddy, or any of the other current crop of GOP hitmen who have done real damage to our country by turning politics into a zero-sum game).

On a different topic, no Rabbit Hole as yet in Indiana, but I have hopes for today's mail. Incidentally, I've been thinking about ordering some back issues, and I can't help but wonder about the unavailable #1 and #5. Are there none in the files that new copies could be run from?

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Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:14 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20090314.htm
KOS, ya boob, that site is pro-Israel propaganda. One outside "source" has books for sale by Nuttenyahoo and Joan Peters, who wrote a book that was lambasted by British historians.

Nice quote from one source:

"There are others who are to blame. For many years, it has been obvious to us that anti-Israel propaganda and Israel bashing around the world are little more than disguised anti-Semitism. No one on earth really cares about the so-called "Palestinians," least of all other Arabs. People pretend to care about the "Palestinians" because this helps them de-legitimize a real nation... the Nation of Israel."

Yea, that sure sounds balanced. You're better off with Wikipedia. Try Edward Said.


I like the first Friday the 13th. It was somewhat scary and had a neato surprise ending. No way to know who the killer was. Nice cameo by a old school actress. She still regrets doing it.

As long as nobody thinks Grindhouse was a slasher film. We might have to fight then.

To be fair, Casino has more violence then most slasher films. Remember the guy's head in a vise? Ick.


Dahr Jamail has a great book out about Iraq. He spent his own money and traveled there to get the truth out about what was really going on. Basically the crimes we committed there were terrorism of the highest order: Shooting children for fun, gutting pregnant women, turning off electricity to punish Fallujah, bombing Al Jazeera, raping young girls, free fire lunacy. We created the terrorism that took over the country.

We all know who the evil doers were.


Josh, where's The Apple?


Kevin Avery

A Nightmare on Elm Street

Postby Kevin Avery » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:26 am

Name: Kevin Avery
Source: unca20090314.htm
Harlan, I believe Brian is correct. I also recall your qualified praise of this series. While my collection of FS&Fs are stashed up in the attic, I did find this comment in an archived Webderland bulletin board:

Infoman (sliverscreen)
- Sunday December 28 1997 04:42:15

... Arkadin: when I recommend "Titanic" to everyone who visits the site, I do so using the same meter that Harlan Ellison (in "Harlan Ellison's Watching," installment 47, Jan. 1992, Fantasy & Science Fiction) did when he wholeheartedly recommended the last few "Nightmare on Elmstreet" (sic) films and both "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" and "Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey" (nee, "Bill and Ted Go to Hell").

Kevin Avery


Postby Kevin Avery » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:30 am

Name: Kevin Avery
Source: unca20090314.htm
Of course, that should be: "While my collection of FS&Fs _is_ stashed up in the attic..."

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Postby john zeock » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:37 am

Name: john zeock
Source: unca20090314.htm
Josh-thanks for bringing up Day/Fire. I remember seeing it at a saturday double feature when I was 12 and all I wanted of a SF movie was that it was Not Awful and was amazed by how good it was. I've always been a sucker for that 50's Brit docudrama approach to SF movies-Day, The first 2 Quatermass films, X the Unknown, the Giant Behemoth and others. (they asked Nigel Kneale,blessed be his name,to borrow Quatermass for X and he said, "Leave your hands off my character." Oh,and Joseph Losey was to be the original director).I remember it as being pretty sexy to show to 11 and 12 year olds. And it was amazing what they managed to do with effects budgets that were almost literally $9.95. You can imagine the remake. No concentrating on just three people and that ending would never work. Oh, and Harlan, I too love Bill and Ted,especially. Playing Twister with Death...who wouldn't ? John

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John E Williams
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Postby John E Williams » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:01 am

Name: JohnEWilliams
Source: unca20090314.htm
Josh Olson wrote: "Rush Limbaugh places his party above his country." Well, he's not even that honorable. What Rush and his ilk put above country is their unshakable fealty to their ideology -- a brutish, bullying, deeply stupid ideology which helps them believe they matter where others don't, that their place is on the backs of lesser beings, that God himself created the universe just so they personally could inhabit it. Their flag-waving and founding father fetishism are nothing more than means to an end. These fuckers are already talking about insurrection and revolution and wanting the President to fail, and they couldn't give a flying fuck for American ideals. During the Bush years we heard them openly express their utter contempt and loathing for the U.S. Constitution and for American traditions like justice and freedom. God knows what the hell their ultimate vision for a perfect Conservative Union might be, but it sure as hell ain't the United States of America.

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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:52 am

Name: Ezra
Source: unca20090314.htm
You guys are totally misreading Bush Limbo. He's a carny from way back who believes in Republicanism the same way Benny Hinn believes in god.

Speaking of DAY THE EARTH CAUGHT FIRE, it contains a nice turn from the late great Leo McKern...

Purists will no doubt take umbrage but my personal favorite Quatermass is the last one, Quatermass and the Pit.

Frank, how come every time somebody says or writes anything you perceive as "pro-Israel" (or "pro-American" for that matter) it's baseless propaganda, but your sources are always ABSOLUTE OBJECTIVE UNQUESTIONABLE TRUTH?

And I'll need some evidence before I accept anybody's word about American war crimes. (Actually I'll need evidence before I accept anybody's word about dang near anything...)

Hey Adam-Troy Castro! There's a guy using your name with a story in the latest ANALOG! Man these identify thieves will stop at nothing will they?


Good story.

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Postby markabaddon » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:53 am

Name: Mark Goldberg
Source: unca20090314.htm
Susan, a question for you: do you still have the Harlan Ellison Hornbook (hardcover) available through HERC?

To reinforce what JohnE said, Rush is not loyal to his own party, he demands obedience only to his myopic, jingoistic, misogynistic, ethno-centric world view. Rush has stated publicly that Republicans are not supposed to criticize Bobby Jindal's rebuttal to President Obama's speech. He has supported Michael Steele's assertion that Republicans who supported the President's plan (Senators Snowe, Collins and Spector) be "cut off at the knees"; essentially not receive any funding from the RNC and would face strong primary challenges from more traditional Republicans.

No my friends, Rush and his ilk represent nothing but naked antagonism and macho false bravado made flesh. Theirs, however, is a dying breed. Every single demographic by age, gender and ethnicity skews heavily towards the Democrats. There is now greater than a 10% gap between those who self identify as Democrats and those who call themselves Republicans and that variance grows larger on a nearly daily basis. They are facing a political Ragnarok and that is why some of their more moderate members (not that they are moderates by any conventional sense but at least compared to their peers) such as Gov. Schwarzenegger and Gov. Crist, as well as some members of Congress have considered switching to an independent party affiliation.

In the 1980s, Reagan made it fashionable in the mainstream to be a Republican for better or worse. That pendulum has swung back again and I think the Dems are poised to dominate the political landscape for the next generation

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Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
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Postby Harlan Ellison » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:00 am

Source: unca20090314.htm
I choose not to answer your posting, nor the "enigma" you posit.

I'll tell you why.

I don't trust you.

I have pause that you are who you Post As; that you mean well; that your visits here are as daisy-fresh as indicated by the careful wordings and assurances. You are welcome here, as are almost all, but--bottom-line--I don't trust you, kiddo.

Respectfully, Harlan Ellison

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