Pavilion Digest: April 2006

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Kevin Avery

Postby Kevin Avery » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:50 am

Name: Kevin Avery
Source: unca20060606.htm

>> For anyone who likes Irish stuff not having heard of the Chieftains
>> would be like not having heard of Beethoven.

Beethoven was Irish? ;-)

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Bakshi and Last Chance

Postby Moderator » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:42 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20060606.htm
I'm with Rob (the West Rob, not the East, South or even North Rob [who's a cold son of a bitch, but we won't go there]) in that rotoscoping, regardless of the purpose, has never done much for me artistically. My original reference was that Bakshi's LoTR used it, and at times rather poorly (IMHO). He's also used it effectively, such as in AMERICAN POP. In the same vein I don't really care for painted photographs, and have come close to taking someone's head off for innocently suggesting that one of my shots would be "very cool" with a little watercolor mixed in.

To each their own, and to each our own.

(And let's get to the bottom of WIZARDS availability on dvd. Inquiring minds and all that.)

Second offer:

I set up this wonderful web page on my site entitled "WEBDERLAND SECRET GALLERY" "Pictures from Minicon" (

Only, well, one problem with it.

No content. Not a single shot. (Some loverly generic placeholding pics, tho).

Last chance, kiddies. We want to share, all of us what missed the event. Send me an email if you want to post something. If not, it comes down in a few days...

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Rotoscoping William Shatner's Colon

Postby remarck » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:36 am

Name: Keith Cramer
Source: unca20060606.htm
For some reason, that's very funny to me.

Steve, I took no pictures at Minicon. Not sure why. I was relieved and happy to be "off-duty" as a documentarian on this trip. If I had something for you, I'd gladly send it. I took pictures when me and my girlfriend went to St. Paul, and pictures of the wetlands trails over by the airport, which are good for looksee, and I even have pictures of the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. But none of Harlan and Susan. None of me or Doug or Amy and Ben, or Mark, or Rob, or Scott, or Amy, or...well, you get the picture. Or not.

Next time I'll be good. I promise.




Postby Andrew » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:33 am

Name: Andrew
Source: unca20060606.htm
I've gotta say this one has me scratching my head in puzzlement.

If Bakshi sucks because he used rotoscoping in much of his work, where does that leave works like Uncle Walt's SNOW WHITE or much of the Fleischer brothers' oeuvre?

And before everyone dismisses Linklater's A SCANNER DARKLY prior to its, much delayed, release, perhaps seeing WAKING LIFE might encourage a more favorable opinion.

My $.02.


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Postby Jeff R. » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:31 am

Name: Jeff R.
Source: unca20060606.htm
Rotoscope is an animator's tool. What's wrong with an animator using every tool at his disposal to get a desired result? isn't the image on the screen more important than what technical means were used to achieve it?

By the way, Snoughton, the OUTER LIMITS episode you mentioned was "DEMON with a Glass Hand," not "Devil with..." Harlan's name appeared at the beginning, not the end, and was on-screen for probably about thirty seconds, not the split second that you claim it was visible.
Maybe you should consider finding another board to troll.

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Good Music!

Postby DTS » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:58 pm

Name: DTS
Source: unca20060606.htm
ALL: Bruce Springsteen's new CD -- covering a bunch of folksongs often associated with Pete Seeger -- is TERRIFIC! Large dollops of dixieland, zydeco, you name it. And an obviously FUN time being had by all involved. Great listening

And HARLAN: although I'm pretty sure you don't like much of Springsteen's output, I think you'd dig this. Hey, would the guy who turned you onto Nellie McKay lie to you? (About anything other than who the dollar under your foot belongs to, that is).

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Postby FrankChurch » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:11 pm

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20060606.htm
Dor-in-the-celler, yea, you got it right, Springsteen did do a good album, more up then the usual folkie stuff. I may be on the left, but some of that hootenanny stuff does make me itch. Anarchists being more into middle finger salute type songs. I would never say anything bad about Seeger, though, a great man with a heart for the worker and the man on the plow.

Killing fascists with songs is the way to go.


My buddy Jello Biafra just put out a double dvd of the best interviews done by the creepy Nardwuar. He seems to like Nardy, unlike our fearless leader. I did send Nardy an email complaining about his hit job on our Harlan. Nard seems to be about street theatre interviewing. He is also quite famous in Canada, or so they say.

He puts on an act to make people pissed. Sometimes alternative culture is just lame.

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Frank's message to me

Postby DTS » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:06 pm

Name: DTS
Source: unca20060606.htm
FRANK: Even though it may get me banned (and I'll certainly absent myself for a while because of it), felt compelled to post a second time today to say your penchant for purposely mangling my name doesn't piss me off -- but it does put you squarely in the group of the sort of bluecollar nonecks, hydro-headed pseudo-brains and mentally arrested malcontents that I put on the ignore list. Perhaps some of the folks on here _were_ right about you. Ah, well. Piddle on, Frank. I'm no longer interested in the ranting of middleclass poseurs. --DTS

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Postby Roger Gjovig » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:19 pm

Name: Roger Gjovig
Source: unca20060606.htm
I just picked up the latest issue of F&SF Magazine and was excited to see a new Kedrigen story by John Morressy. I was looking at the latest issue of Locus at the magazine rack that same visit and saw a note at the bottom of the credits page that Mr Morressy had just died recently and that more would be included the next issue. I've been reading his Kedrigen stories in F&SF for a long time and was very saddened to read of his passing. In fact I had just tracked down Volume 1 and 2 of the Kedrigen Chronicles just recently and am still trying to find Volume 3 titled "Occupational Hazards" if the ad in the back of volume 1 is correct. I'm not sure if the news of Mr Morressy's death was noted earlier but I just thought I would mention just in case.

Mark Spieller

Catching up...

Postby Mark Spieller » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:25 pm

Name: Mark Spieller
Source: unca20060606.htm
I have never been overly fond of Bashki's work, but it seems that when we are talking about rotoscoping we are talking about how it is used, rather then who uses it. With Disney, it was a solution to the difficulty of animating humans realistically. In the case of the Fleischers' it was something that Max Fleischer invented or at least perfected technically as part of the experimentation that can be seen in many of his cartoons from the bouncing ball sing-a-longs, to the Superman cartoons.

The director of "A Scanner Darkly" did a previous film using the same technique as a means of altering the look of the actors and their reality around them. Cosidering the altered state and psychosis of the novel's hero and the other characters this might be a viable tool to accomplish a literary task. But personally, I do not think that there is any technology that can create the impression that Keanu Reeves can act.


Some time ago, I think someone asked about a movie called "The Flesh, The World and The Devil" A post-apocalyse film starring Harry Belafonte. Turner Classic Movies, will be showing it during the month of May as part of a Black Americans in Film, program. Usually once TCM shows a film a DVD release is not far behind. A trip to their website will give date and time.


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Paddy and Co.

Postby paul » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:28 pm

Name: p
Source: unca20060606.htm
Kristin- I saw the Chieftains at the MD theatre in Hagerstown in, god, 1990? ish? I didn't get to see them this past tour (Triona Marshall sat harp for them i understand, among many other guest artists). I don't own a DVD of them but i have lots of CDs ( SANTIAGO and THE CELTIC HARP are recommended) and the solo work of Derek Bell's MYSTIC HARP (the first) is a joy. I got it the week it came out and i've given away three. I was about 20ish when my friend and i went to see them. I grew up in a musically rich household, my friend Greg did not. He was amazed these guys and they jammin' ways. An elderly gent came out playing some type of double flute and was jumpin' jack flash, man. Greg turned to me, very seriously, and said, "That guy is gonna have a heart attack." I smiled and said, "If he does, i bet he dies happy." Good times.

It is a little known fact Beethoven was Welsh-Armenian whose sister played the castanets in a gypsy caravan sideshow.
Beethoven himself had no discernable talent and in fact claimed to get his ideas telepathically from Franz Schubert 's dog, This is patently ridiculous as it was a Shar Pei and Beethoven couldn't have possibly understood chinese.

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Postby Eric Martin » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:57 pm

Name: Eric Martin
Source: unca20060606.htm
Oh, the Nardwaur bit...that was over ten years ago, wasn't it? I remember listening to it a few years ago...I don't think he did a "job" on Ellison; I thought it was a pretty good interview, even kind of sad with the Griffin part, and there was some talk about writers and artists and such, and finally Harlan got sick of the idiots and rang off. I think it's still available on the web.

Edo Van Ede

Until Harlan gets a new film out, P.K.Dick's adaptability?

Postby Edo Van Ede » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:48 pm

Name: Edo Van Ede
Source: unca20060606.htm
Philip K. Dick's upcoming "A Scanner Darkly" seems as doomed to unadaptability as every previous attempt. For one reason... or two... but the first is more crucial:

his work is literary/linguistic/metaphorical, not visual.

Although I like everything but the title (stolen from an earlier novel or two) about "Blade Runner" (the non-"director's cut", WITH the voice-overs/ original theatrical release), it isn't a Dick story at all.

A nice futuristic "Maltese Falcon/Big Sleep", but the translation to the scree lost everything that makes the multilayered PKD a delight ...and pain in the ass... as he overdoes the backflippy M.C. Escher inversions, like P.D.Q Bach on fugue state LSD-26, at times.

(I think it's been proven he wrote with a corkscrew.)

Tom Cruise's ham-handed banality "The Minority Report (putrid title... whatever happened the author of "Do Anroids Dream of Electric Sheep?", an Ellison-esque question if ever there was one) also did the standard Hollywood take of Dick:

Iron out all the irony.

That seems to be the fatality in the popularizing of his vision.

Where he wrote quadruple-take / puns-biting-their-own-tale, his big screen adaptors cannot get their prenatally-smooth cerebellums around Dick's wrinkled thinking.

"We Can Remember it For You Wholesale" turns into a "Total Recall" (Or: "Tomorrowland-circus-geeks-meet-Samson-versus-Robinson-Crusoe-on-Mars").

As mentioned in an earlier note, I'd like to see a film of the Harlan story "i have no mouth and i must scream".

But how would those in the flick biz, who still see the future as the 1950's -with the addition of flashing CGI fins- (like Spielberg/Cruise's praeter-numbskulled, philosophically-rickety/scientifically pre-puced/intellectually one-eyed "A.I.") envision a world within the riveted mind of a dyslexic, world-spanning IT?

I'd give it a try, if Spielberg wants to make amends for his last few films. But you need film-makers more like Jean Cocteau ...his 'hell's angels' and liquid mirrors in "Orpheus" are far more disturbing and evocative than all the computer-generated flotsam[e] swirling in whizbang maelstoms that usually get thrown-out as 'sci-fi/spacey stuff'. Or you require a level of subtlety like the surreal (Kafka-better-than-Sonnenberg's-"KAFKA") "Woman in the Dunes" film.

A parody of the mind ("artificial intelligence" always being nothing but), shown devouring the children of the humans who started this mad mind moving -in "mouth/scream"- is critically worth visualizing... to all those sub-paradoxical, un-psychological simpletons blithely enamored of "A.I." .

As a way to expose, and excoriate, all the the vaguely-looming-in-the-backround Big Bad Machines of the "Terminator" type films. (Nod to Ellison's plagiarized "Devil/Glass Hand/'mouth-scream" at the end of T1, noted.)

The film "Brazil" tried, and failed at doing this type of "in the belly of the wind-up beast" vision, because of the lack of seriousness of the director (who also failed with "12 Monkeys" for the same dorky non-tragic vision which gelds his 'interesting-failure' efforts).

George Lucas is till reheating Edgar Rice Burroughs on a sterno can of Joseph Campbell soups.

Sharper sulci are needed for the project. Harlan, if you know of anyone who'd like to have a visual assistant for adapting your cyber-Satyricon short story, or if your thinking of working it up for the silver sheet, zap me an e-pistle.

"mouth/scream" could be fleshed-out to capture the emotional feel of something like the Fritz Lang/Spencer Tracy classic "Fury", the dreamlike psychological mood of "Dr. Cyclops" (kitschy but still moody and pre-consciously arresting), with the visual sense of an internalized "Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon" meets "A Clockwork Orange".

As humanity plunges fatuously forward on all fronts, technologically/biologically/neo-cryptozoologically, your literary speedbump would be a good jolt to the dozing drivers of the latest model of the Juggernaut XL365. (Wipers optional.)

But, no Tom Cruise. (Unless he is killed off very early on in the film. Perhaps by a short-circuiting e-meter?)

William Shatner, however, might be a good 'voice of the machine', if put through Stephen Hawking's vox synthesizer, first.

Title music?

"Ballet Mechanique?"
Played by Wendy (nee Walter) Carlos?


Kristin Ruhl

Postby Kristin Ruhl » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:53 pm

Name: Kristin Ruhl
Source: unca20060606.htm
Just dined out at an Ethiopian restraurant called GOJO in San Jose, CA. Recommended for anyone who visits this area/comes on business. (There are several such places around here, as well as several Mongolian BBQ's ANY of which can do better than the one in the Bloomington. My pals thought it was weird that a restaurant would try to "hand hold" first time visitors.)

Oh, p, you crack me up!!!!

fretting because already committed to Burning Man, but just saw an LAcon program book at these here friends house I'm visiting...oh wow, Anne McCaffrey is gonna be there with Todd, and JMS is gonna be there, and I LOOVE James Gurney, and even the science futurist writers like Vernor Vinge and David Brin, and....eek, Christopher Priest is gonna be there, so I guess they know to keep Harlan and him far apart, lest there be violence! I wanna be two places at once! Oh! Oh!

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Postby robochrist » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:14 pm

Name: Rob
Source: unca20060606.htm

I can help you with your question:

As I was discussing earlier with another Joe here, Disney used "guide techniques" that had been used in studios since the earliest days, specifically, filming actors performing movements, sometimes with props, and then using the resulting footage to help them with their work.

BUT...the animation was NOT traced from the photographic material. It was used as a guide for weight, timing and movement. I remember as a kid reading about how the animators did frequent trips to nearby farms to film animals when animating scenes for Bambi. During the making of Snow White, they invited a top burlesque comedian to the studios to record on film (I saw a splice of that in a documentary once) an interpretation of one of the dwarfs who had proved problematic to characterize. Thus, live-action filming became a regular part of the animation process - strictly as a rehearsal ground when the animators were in trouble. The footage was never traced for the final animation. Thus, rotoscoping was never employed in the actual features at Disney.

That's the reason Disney held his place as a technical envelope-pusher.

And, for me, that's how rotoscoping should be utilized; not for the final product but as a tool for part of the process.

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