Pavilion Digest: September 2005

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Pavilion Digest: September 2005

Postby admin » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:11 pm

The following posts contain Art Deco Dining Pavilion messages for the month of September 2005.

Nathan

Postby Nathan » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:11 pm

Name: Nathan
Source: unca20050926.htm
"I worry that Sheehan's message could be counter productive. I believe she is inadvertently sending a clear message to the
insurgients that they are on the right track. "

The insurgency began to swell in number and effectiveness before she started her crusade. They got on the track they are on before Sheehan entered the scene. Her words do not make bombs more explosive, bullets more deadly, nor are her words responsible for the ethnic/religious tensions that divide Iraq.

"We MUST protect the innocent people of our world."

Protecting the innocent was not the mission. The mission was to find weapons. It was a self serving war...to protect ourselves from an imaginary arsenal. And now, as Bush admits, its about the oil fields.

Plus there is something unnerving about a forced revolution. The Iraqi people didn't ask us for aid in their liberation. We told them they were going to be liberated...on our terms, our rules.



Eric Martin
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Postby Eric Martin » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:08 am

Name: Eric Martin
Source: unca20050926.htm
>And now, as Bush admits, its about the oil fields.<

Yeah, right. Filled up your car, lately? Katrina be damned, we've been paying top dollar for gas for the past year...I've seen no oil benefit from Iraq. And none of us ever will.

This canard from the left is as tired and inaccurate as the canards about secret weapons from the right.



rich
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Postby rich » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:29 am

Name: rich
Source: unca20050926.htm
The only message the insurgents are getting is that we aren't leaving anytime soon. Hence, the insurgency. If anything, us being there is playing right into the hands of the insurgents as it gives them a target for their chaos. Not a literal target as they're killing more Iraqis than Americans, but a symbolic one and helps direct anger away from them and towards the Americans for being there in the first place, thus causing the bombings and death and destruction that has become apparently so commonplace that we've redirected our attention to a grieving mom outside Crawford, TX.

"I could not care less what the motivating force was behind our declaration of war against Saddam---"

Hypocrisy, plain and simple. I guarantee you, Cindy, that you wouldn't have said that if it was Clinton or Gore that got us into this mess. By the way, you may want to post this one next time you're on freerepublic.com:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/18/161016/461

And for those sticklers who demand sources:

http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/gop_kosovo.pdf

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Barney Dannelke
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Postby Barney Dannelke » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:43 am

Name: Barney Dannelke
Source: unca20050926.htm
These things are relative, but I don't think any of us in the United States have been paying "top dollar" for gas, lately, or indeed, hardly ever. But watching a local Hess station attendent change the sign this morning from $2.69 to $2.99 at 1AM - when, presumably he will encounter less outrage and perhaps feel less shame - I thought to myself that we are all about to get a taste of what "top dollar" really feels like. And yes, I know California and many other places pay higher prices than PA all the time.

There was an interesting 3 page article about the "peak oil" school of thought by Peter Maas in last weekends New York Times magazine that raised some ghost hackles on the back of my neck. If we know as little about the true Saudi oil reserves as that article intimates then we could be in for a brand new world of consumer hurt.

***Cindy*** While it's reasonable to counter one mother's grief against that of another as a way of answering those charges of misdirection and sociopath level insensitivity, at the point where this discussion devolves into dueling mothers and the ways they handle their loss - and the effectiveness of their media handlers and their outlets - I think we have entered into the "all reason fled" arena.

As for not caring why we entered into this military enterprise, I have to say I'm sad to see anyone take such a tact. The reason a government as powerful as ours does anything, particularly with our military should be important to its citizens. In fact, thinking about how and when and to what degree a civilisation uses its military is often seen in Western culture as a primary DUTY of its citizens. To walk away from this line of questioning is to give government ultimate power and a rein so free as to be useless and dangerous.

To decide the reasons after the fact is the potential job of historians and should be anathema to its citizens.

************************************************************

Speaking of history, I'm currently reading [as opposed to wading through, as with the recent Kaplan bio] the new MARK TWAIN: A LIFE by Ron Powers.

http://tinyurl.com/dvl4l

This is the same Powers who wrote "Dangerous Water: A Biography of the Boy Who Became Mark Twain" which tells the story of Clemens in fascinating detail up until his 15th birthday. I have always thought of this as the boring or tedious part of many biographies but Powers showed me how wrong I was, and how much a thoughtful person could get out of material often glossed over. Plus, this fellow has a light, breezy style that makes me insane with jealousy. He is the anti-Kaplan. How someone can put so much on the page and not bog the reader down is a wonder and a mystery to me.

So, if you're only going to read one 625 page Twain biography this year - this is the one.

- Barney Dannelke

Brad Stevens
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Auteurism

Postby Brad Stevens » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:42 am

Name: Brad Stevens
Source: unca20050926.htm
"We're not discussing here those six directors worldwide who are the best, the six whose individual voices - whether you like their films or not - set them apart from all other directors who are merely craftspersons of greater or lesser ability...I'll let you have that list of the six directors. Just take the list and remember I'm never wrong, and shut up. They are: Kurosawa, Altman, Coppola, Resnais, Bunuel, Kubrick, and Fellini"

It's an odd list. Nobody who knows anything about Japanese cinema could possibly prefer Kurosawa to Mizoguchi or Ozu. But this piece was published in 1980 and only deals with living directors, so that's fair enough. Renoir died in 1979. Kiarostami was not generally known outside Iran at this time. But Bresson was very much alive, and Angelopoulos is still with us. Altman and Coppola probably seemed much more interesting in 1980 than they do today - even their best work from the 70s now looks pretty dull when compared with the masterpieces shot during that decade by Hellman and Cassavetes. But does anyone believe that Resnais is a more important director than Godard or Rivette? Does anyone really think that Garrel, Pialat, Chabrol, Truffaut, Akerman, Marker, Ruiz, Straub, Satyajit Ray, Eustache, Oshima, Ferreri, Bertolucci, Bellocchio, Leone, Jancso, Tarkovsky, Olmi, Herzog, Wenders, Fassbinder and Erice were "just craftspersons of greater or lesser ability"?

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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:51 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20050926.htm
Todd, if you think Bush is doing a good job mobilizing help to the flood victims then you're beyond help.

Bush went to a speech about World War 2 when he could have been in Mississippi mobilizing a massive effort to help the mostly black victims of the flood. Sewage and dead bodies float in the rivers of standing water, while Bush is not doing much of anything; and I don't care if the guy was Noam Chomsky, this President aint doing shit.

The people should all be in shelters by now, and why are they worrying about the looting, when the real job should be getting all the people to a safe spot. The insurance should cover any loss at the stores.

The standing water with sewage and chemical spillage, will create a Congo like atmosphere here in America, if we do not act now. Too bad all our resources are being wasted in Iraq.

There are stories that the levee could have been fixed as early as 2003, but Bush did not want to heed FEMA's warnings and askings for help with the fortification. No, Bush wanted to use all the money to build up the Iraqi war. FEMA's budget got cut and now look at the results.

Republican or democrat, liberal or anarchist, no American should abide this red neck son of a bitch.

THIS IS AN EMERGENCY, SEND HELP NOWWWW!!!



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JaySmith
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Bush Meets Swamp

Postby JaySmith » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:47 am

Name: Jay Smith
Source: unca20050926.htm
Frank,

I'd much rather Chimpy McFlightsuit keep his nose out of things. He can give orders and sign checks from Washington and let FEMA and other organizations do their job without tying up their police, EMS , utility vehicles, offices, phones and generators for a giant photo-op. He had an "emotional" fly-over on Air Force One and cut his vacation short (rolls eyes) to metaphorically roll up his sleeves, and that's great. But as far as I can tell, the Governors of Ole Miss and Lousie-Anna are on top of things - they just need more manpower, supplies and cash, not some useless figurehead with nothing to do but wander around looking somber.

This is a job for real people with real skills. If he wants to use a power saw, he can go back to his deadwood in Crawford.

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Steve Evil
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Postby Steve Evil » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:24 am

Name: Steve Evil
Source: unca20050926.htm
"I've seen no oil benefit from Iraq. And none of us ever will. "

We weren't meant to. They'd still gouge us even if the insurgents weren't blowing everything up.



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Ezra Lb.
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Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:35 am

Name: Ezra
Source: unca20050926.htm
So many threads, so little time. A terrible burden having an opinion about everything. What to do what to do? Hmmmmmchronologically perhaps.

1.Frank I just heard on the news that federal rescue teams attempting to evacuate the Superdome had to withdraw after they came under GUNFIRE from some of those poor oppressed class warriors you praise so much.
2.Brad, being a FAN rather than a STUDENT of film keeps me from wasting my time trying to decide if one director is more important than another.
3.Barney, dammit, now you tell me theres a better bio of Twain when Im about a third of the way through the Kaplan.
4.Cindy, why is it that the soldiers and their families feel such a bond with a man whose idea of a war wound is a charley horse from biking (Bush) and feel such an aversion to a man (Kerry) who actually had the experience of having bullets whistle by his head in combat?.


Galen
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Steve B

Postby Galen » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:40 am

Name: Galen
Source: unca20050926.htm
Steve, I replied to your post because I was offended by its content, not because I disagreed with the likelihood of its prediction. We could all follow your lead and post our own cynical conjectures as to who might do what next that would make us want to vomit.

In the immediate aftermath of this disaster, why air such a pointedly negative conjecture?

With your post of the day you chose to focus on the sad certainty that some would take advantage of this tragedy for their own purposes, targeting evangelicals as your specific bulls eye calling them self-styled is an equivocation, dont you think? Others will rush to target their predictions against a race or social class or political party. Each will eventually be able to google a news item or see a video on CNN that validates for them that they were right small egotistical victory though that would be.

My disagreement is with the timing, negative focus and specificity of your post in light of the tragedy and on-going humanitarian efforts. I do concede that your prediction is validated. You were right, and it makes me want to vomit.

Respectfully,

Galen

PS My wife just called in excitement to tell how she was able to help a family from New Orleans by expediting a refund for unused camp insurance. The family had run out of money in their escape and the refund was needed to purchase food. A small deed, I know, but worthy of recognition. My words above just shrivel next to the smallest act of compassion.


Mike Lane

Postby Mike Lane » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:47 am

Name: Mike Lane
Source: unca20050926.htm
Someone on the board, Nathan, I believe, wrote that Bush admitted that the reason we are in Iraq is primarily for its oil reserves. I'd like to know the source of that admittion, where, when and what was said, if possible. I've always suspected this
was a primary motivating factor especially given certain policy
papers for the Project for a New American Century written by current administration officials nearly a decade prior to the invasion. Unfortunately and not surprisingly, if you go to their website, those particular policy papers are no longer available.

Thanks in advance.

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Chuck Messer
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A Convenient Place.

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:43 am

Name: Chuck Messer
Source: unca20050926.htm
Eric wrote:

"This canard from the left is as tired and inaccurate as the canards about secret weapons from the right."

I don't know, the facts are not all in. But I do remember a statement made by Peter Arnett about Vietnam. He felt the Johnson administration escalated the war in Vietnam because they felt it was a convenient place to fight the war on communism.

I have long felt that Iraq was seen as a convenient place to fight the "War on Terror." (Which is like declaring war on flanking manuvers.) In Iraq, the US would have a quick, easy victory that would look good on television. The war in Afganistan would be a long, dreary slog without much chance for photo ops.

The people who planned the Iraq operation went in with a number of happy horseshit assumptions about the aftermath of the invasion -- that it would be like Paris in 1944. We'd win, the bad guys would die and all would be sunshine and roses, the end. Administration officials like John Ashcroft (our very own Robert MacNamara) were so wedded to this vision of postwar Iraq that they ignored the warnings from their own military that the occupation of Iraq would be more involved and difficult that they assumed.

Even after reports came in from the field that things were getting hot and that looting was rampant, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz, etc refused to admit their earlier assumptions were wrong. As a result, the heavy equipment that would have saved lives, armored personnel carriers, LAV's, armor kits for Humvees were not in place when needed. The sending of this equipment and the ordering of up-armoring kits for "soft-skinned" vehicles was extremely tardy. People died because of this.

They died because the arrogance, the hubris, the micromanagement that came from Ashcroft, who crossed off units the general staff said were needed for Iraq in the first place, saying, in effect, "You don't need this. You don't need this. And what do you need this for?"

All so we could have a chapter in the "War on Terror" that had a nice, satisfying finish like an action movie.

It's what I've felt for quite some time: Behind every successful politician is a trail of bodies.

Chuck

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:11 pm

Name: David Loftus
Source: unca20050926.htm

Chuck:

Regarding your closing comment, I saw a bumper sticker locally that read "There's a Terrorist Behind Every Bush."



Paul Jon
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:17 pm

Postby Paul Jon » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:35 pm

Name: Paul Leslie
Source: unca20050926.htm

I just saw the Barber of Mississippi getting all hot under the collar that a CNN reporter had the balls to suggest that the federal Govt. was doing a bad job helping the hurricane survivors. After the reporter said the Govt. had days to get some kind of plan together (actually they have had years ) as they saw the cat.5 hurricane closing in Barber got pissed and said that it was only cat.1 and they only had a few hours of warning that it was up to cat.5 . BULLSHIT . Perhaps he was out golfing with Shrub as the hurricane moved in.

Ezra Lb.
A few gunshots were fired so now we can all throw up our hands and say we tried to save them but they shot at us.That is just so unheard of in the U.S.A. I can't beleive it. Actual gunshots. I guess we will just have to evacuate Iraq as the poor oppressed warriors have shot at the troops.

I have been watching the news on TV and of the busses moving people into the Astro Dome I cant see a single military vehicle.
The people in the Super Dome and Convention Center have been left to rot and fend for themselves.

Keep your head in the sand and keep saying they are doing everything they can ( maybe mentally but not physically )and Shrub can always send a prayer.


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