Pavilion Digest: June 2004

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Site Admin
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 12:03 pm

Pavilion Digest: June 2004

Postby admin » Mon May 31, 2004 10:35 pm

The following posts contain Art Deco Dining Pavilion messages for the month of June 2004.

User avatar
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:30 pm

Postby robochrist » Mon May 31, 2004 10:35 pm

Name: Rob
Source: unca20040720.htm

"Harlan's recap of the DOOMSMAN tale is worth weeks and weeks of rehashing of the usual Kubrick vs. The World and political fumfummery."

As Lili Von Shtupp would put it, "it's twue. It's twue. It's TWUE!"

...except for the obvious fact that Harlan hasn't always the time to deliver knock-out recaps like this one (I copied and pasted it for my files); and when he's too busy to take the wheel Kubrick is always ready with the chauffeur hat. I'll take that deal to YOUR political "fumfummery" anytime, which never hesitates popping up here, and FAR more often.

Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:53 pm


Postby Teak » Mon May 31, 2004 10:56 pm

Name: Teak
Source: unca20040720.htm
Craig, I'm not sure I understand your story. Are you saying you're grateful for being publicly embarrassed after asking an innocuous question? I'm not trying to stir shit up, but that's stockholm syndrome exemplified.



Postby Craig » Mon May 31, 2004 10:59 pm

Name: Craig
Source: unca20040720.htm
First I'd like to apologize for all the typos in my previous post. I dropped a of words. I've been working hard writing technical documentation for the last month and I think my brain felt unfettered and free (and lazy).

Steve Jarrett: Thanks for pointing to the previous Doomsman discussion. I did do a bit of Google research before posting to this site, but nothing from this site's archive turned up. I guess Google is not the be-all-end-all of web searching.

Cindy: Glad you liked it. I'm heading to New Zealand. Sadly I'll be arriving just as their winter is getting started. To make it worse, I'm going to Wellington which has the same winters as Portland (grey and wet) with added high speed winds for zest.

Harlan: Thank you for telling us this tale (again it seems). Since I was there selling books, I asked the bookbuyer at Powell's to give me a price for Doomsman. I think the hoopla is dying out a bit. A few years ago Powell's had a copy in their locked display case for $25. The bookbuyer told me they are now offering it for $5. I didn't ask, but I'd bet it's on the shelves instead of locked away.
I am impressed you remember that island in your ocean of convention experiences. This snot-nosed brat (I belive that is the phrase you used in a radio interview you gave after the convention) is amused and delighted in that not only do you remember, but my own recollection is true, if not exactly accurate. Thank you.

so, uh, what do you think of Arthur C. Clarke?
SOUND FX: Rimshot
CRAIG: Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:05 am

DOOMSMAN and others

Postby Adam-Troy » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:44 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20040720.htm
In what may be much the same vein as DOOMSMAN, I have a tattered copy of a digest magazine called SCIENCE FICTION GREATS, circa Spring 1969.

The format of this minor magazine seems to have spotlighted individual authors, one per issue, usually reprinting stories from early in the author's career.

This issue was devoted to Harlan. In the wake of his Hugo win for "Repent Harlequin," it reprinted seven of his stories from 1956 and 1957, none of which are immediately familiar to me. They sound very much like "apprentice" stories.

World of Women
The Glass Brain
Phoenix Treatment
Satan Is My Ally
The Plague Bearers
Tracking Level
Revolt of the Shadows

My take: Harlan got hot, the magazine bought up the cheapest reprints they could find, regardless of quality. I may be wrong and these may be masterpieces due for rediscovery, but somehow I doubt it; it takes only a fleeting glance at the prose (all I've dared) to see that there doesn't seem to be much special here.

I bought this artifact at a used-book sale about one year ago and keep it on a shelf next to the first publication of "Harlequin," in the March 1968 IF. Its main attraction seems to be as an oddity; a lot like my copy of DOOMSMAN and my ancient copy of a long-forgotten juvenile sf novel by Evan Hunter (Ed McBain), which I also haven't read. (Next to both: an old copy of a truly terrible novel called FUTILITY by Morgan Robertson, not worth reading (I tried) except for the manner in which it achieved its own special form of immortality...)

Anyhow, if Harlan has any remembrances of the above, would appreciate...

Posts: 78
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:25 pm

Postby rich » Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:00 am

Name: rich
Source: unca20040720.htm
You are correct that there are some that post here to "stir-the-pot, let's-watch-the-artists-squabble". I would however, given Jon's words and actions in the past on this and the other forum, say that Jon's intentions were not to fan the flames of the 'net by linking to another site where one artist voiced an opinion about another artist, but rather to allow HE to respond or "set the record straight", so to speak. If HE chooses to respond, great. If not, great.

But, again, I think we have to look at intentions, and Jon's a "regular" so I, personally, am apt to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. It only becomes a squabble if HE responds and then WE start responding and piling on with our "thoughts" and "impressions".

I do have a question for Craig, though...ummmm, you said, "I had gone to that convention with my Rob...". Actually, maybe this question is for Rob. How do I put this? Is there something we should know about? And do your parents know?

Posts: 113
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 8:43 pm
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Postby sjarrett » Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:40 am

Name: Steve Jarrett
Source: unca20040720.htm
I agree completely with Todd about the "Doomsman" post. It contains a wealth of detail that Harlan's post from two years ago on the subject does not. I'm grateful, even if Harlan isn't, that my attempt to be helpful did not forestall the writing of it.

Steve J.

User avatar
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 9:59 am
Location: Houston, TX

Rabbit Hole

Postby Peggy » Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:59 am

Name: Peg
Source: unca20040720.htm

The Rabbit Hole arrived today, thanks very much for sending another copy.

The other is undoubtedly in the cubby-hole of a covetous mail clerk in the alternate universe where our missing mail is diverted because there isn't a lot interesting going on over there and the mail from this universe is just spiffy in comparison, being republished widely and consistently topping the best-seller list, and said mail clerk thinks it's his ticket to fame and fortune and an end to his dreary mail room existence. I suggest you contact them immediately to arrange collection of royalties.

*(My mail room attitude is a bit off as I've learned several legal trial notices have apparently been lost, and have only discovered this upon receipt of a notice of postponement for said trial today!).

Steven Utley

Postby Steven Utley » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:13 am

Name: Steven Utley
Source: unca20040720.htm
Not to intrude on your dialogue with Susan, Miz Peg, but you may be onto more than you realize. Lisa Tuttle and I have just been discussing Henry James' short novel, THE BEAST IN THE JUNGLE, which defeated both of us, and I remarked to her that James seemed to be reporting from some alternate-Earth where people feel emotions unknown in our own world. Now it seems that other people besides James can somehow bridge the interdimensional gap or whatever it is. Cue the "Twilight Zone" theme music.

User avatar
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:57 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20040720.htm
Pretty wild infant gurgles on that Byrne site. I did leave them a bit of a calling card. He, he.

One of the postings from some know nothing, little chicken head:

"My uncle went to high school with Harlan Ellison. Says the bullies
used to dangle Ellison by his feet out two-story windows of the

This might account for his surliness."

Get em Harlan.


I think the problem people have with Harlan doing comics, is that Harlan tries to expand the notion of what a comic can be. That is a corrosive for the jelly brained, who like the same bakery goods in the shop window.


Peg, why are you in Kuwait, and how praytell do you post, without some muslim firewall, protecting you from our noble American filth?

Ray Carlson
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 7:03 pm


Postby Ray Carlson » Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:20 am

Name: Ray Carlson
Source: unca20040720.htm
Been blessedly away from my computer for the past week, hence the tardiness of my best wishes to you.

User avatar
Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:24 am

HEY, JON!!!!!!!!

Postby Harlan Ellison » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:16 am

Source: unca20040720.htm

Would you please post this for me at the John Byrne site:

HARLAN ELLISON DROPS BY: The sound of my name taken in semi-vain drew my attention, so I eavesdropped by your front door. Thank you to those who posted here who knew my work and praised it. And a wry smile to all others whose comments were third- or ninth-hand anecdotal imprecisions. To the chap who noted he had NEVER liked ANYthing I've written, permit me to pat him on the back for his impeccable taste. And, yes, bullies in my grade school used to enjoy massing in groups of five or more, and beating the shit out of the little kike, Ellison, me on this, because I DO have almost eidetic one EVER held me by the feet out a second-storey window. But your "uncle who went to school with Ellison" almost got it right. The nicest part of that, of course, is that I haven't the faintest recollection of who he was, or might be, yet HE dines out on the thinnest scintilla of an ancient liaison with the peculiar punk Ellison. Ain't pseudo-celebrity grand!

When you want to know what minute measure of the bullshit you're always hearing about me is true, drop by the Ellison website. At that locale all first-hand knowledge is dispensed, such as that I don't HATE birthdays at all, I just dislike the artifical bonhomie that accompanies such events, as it is so with Xmas. My friends know that I have at least six of everything, and so I discourage gifts; that my mail is already so clogged that I discourage birthday cards; but that I look upon birthdays--even my 70th just past--with no less than equanimity and a soupcon of mild amusement. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's what you get for listening to internet yenta chatter.

Respectfully, yr. pal, Harlan Ellison

P.S. You'll notice that, as a gentleman, I offer no opinions on John Byrne, his work, his personality, or his relations with others, either personal or work-oriented. Thank you for permitting this visit. Now return to your previous existence.

User avatar
Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:24 am

Postby Harlan Ellison » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:37 am

Source: unca20040720.htm

It's been a long time, kiddo, but if memory serves, the answer to the "Lin Carter linkage" was (as usual) less than met the eye.

The first edition was, as I've noted, a fait accompli when I finally got my copies, and since Bob Mills had made and signed the deal in my absence, I stood by it. (And no, not for an instant was I annoyed at Bob. He was a dear man, a very staunch and loyal agent, and a good friend. I was his last client. Ben Bova was his second-to-last client. We stayed with Bob long after his efficiency as an agent had waned. He was getting on in years, his health wasn't good, and finally he just wanted to pack it in and go out west to California to live with his grown son. I loved Bob. Richard Curtis was in the same building, on the same floor, and he became my agent so easily that he still tells the story of the day Bob left the business, when I came from California to help Bob pack up, and I carried my files across the hall, from one agent to the other, and the transition was THAT easy. There was no split with Bob Mills, amicable or otherwise. He just quit agenting and editing after a long long distinguished and influential career, and I was faithful to him for more than twenty years, right to the last locking of his office door.)

But though I hated the book, despised its existence, a deal was a deal, and -- as I said above -- I stood by it. But Belmont was a bottom-of-the-barrel schlock operation, and without telling Bob or me, without asking our permission or even paying me any more money, Belmont unilaterally, some time later, dropped Lee Hoffman's good TELEPOWER, and re-released DOOMSMAN with the Lin Carter story as replacement.

Why and how that piece wound up with DOOMSMAN, I never knew. But I suspect it was because Belmont, at the time, was doing quite a lot of Carter's books -- Thongor and such --and he was selling for them. So Hoffman, who was big in westerns and had even won a Spur award from the Western Writers for THE VALDEZ HORSES (a great book), but was not big in sf, got excised; and Carter was inserted. I never saw another penny from the book, of course; and shortly after the Lin Carter incarnation, both Bob Mills and my attorney cracked down on Belmont and they lost the license to keep reprinting DOOMSMAN. Does that answer your clearly unquenchable pecksniffian curiosity?

By the by...there's a 3rd edition of the Edgeworks Abbey/iBooks DANGEROUS VISIONS trade paperback. They only reprinted the Whalen cover, not all three; but I have a copy for you, and one for Tim. They came in today. They'll go out in the next packet of goodies.

Yr. pal, Harlan

User avatar
Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:24 am

Postby Harlan Ellison » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:46 am

Source: unca20040720.htm

What do I think of Arthur C. Clarke?

I adore him.

How could I other? Didn't I have his baby?!!!?

Have you never seen the great photo, taken in 1951 or '52 at the Midwestcon at Beatley's On-The-Lake Hotel, gloriusly picturing an incredibly handsome and youthful Robert Bloch, Evelyn Paige Gold (H.L. Gold's then-wife), and Arthur, with their arms and beaming smiles of affection wrapped around an incredibly geeky-looking 16 or 17-year-old Harlan Ellison?

Little Kilowatt Clarke-Ellison and I sayeth no further.


Ted Downum

Postby Ted Downum » Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:46 am

Name: Ted Downum
Source: unca20040720.htm

I'm the dope who introduced the "Ellison hates birthdays" anecdote over on the John Byrne Forum. Thank you for setting the record straight with your gracious comments below. No offense was intended, and I hope none was taken. I'd rather have my tonsils out with a rusty fork than offend you, given how much I've admired you and your work over the years.

Anyway, happy belated birthday, and many more...

Ted Downum

Return to “The Art Deco Dining Pavilion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests