Pavilion Digest: April 2003

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Postby Diana » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:22 pm

Name: Diana
Source: unca20030523.htm

I read your last post to me finally. I'm still your friend. You can count on it.

I was not, am not mad at Mr Ellison. I have no beef with him. I never have had. I was only saying all that about him to piss off the people I was really angry at. But thank you for your supportive input.


Mr Ellison~

I'm sorry I said all those harsh things about you just to piss off some other people who post in here. I wasn't ever angry at you for paying me a compliment. I shouldn't have used you to get at the individuals I was actually mad at. I wrote a lot of unfair, unkind, untrue things about you. I never actually felt or thought any of that. I don't get insulted when men I think are brilliant and attractive pay attention to me, I don't know what I was thinking of by writing those wretched things. I wasn't thinking. I was just mad. But not at you.

I know you're famous (among other things) for holding a grudge, and also you've said I no longer exist in your universe, so I don't expect you to get over being mad at me no matter what I say. but I still believe I need to make my apologies to you.

I don't blame you for thinking that someone who says wretched unkind untrue things about you doesn't even deserve to be addressed. I agree. That's why I've tried to ignore most of the rotten unfair things people have had to say about me on the message board over the last few weeks, but some times it gets to be too damned much.

That doesn't make what I did to you right.

I think I've said all I have to say to you, I hope so. If I've left anything unsaid that needed to be said, I can't think what it is right now, and I'm afraid I may be in danger of simply becoming redundant if I go on any longer. So I won't. Instead I'll just say goodbye.


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Barney Dannelke
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DAY 117

Postby Barney Dannelke » Thu Apr 17, 2003 10:58 pm

Name: Barney Dannelke
Source: unca20030523.htm
Yesterday Rick Wyatt wrote;

"I am aware of this board's importance as a gathering place for a mostly positive and eclectic community. I'm proud to have been a part of that."

I would have to second that.

Having said that I'm afraid I have to object to the current state of affairs. Prior to 12/23/02 or DAY 1, as I have come to think of it, the two boards worked well for me. If I wished to socialize with a group of fellow travellers about things that amused me, or express an opinion, or expand on a point that was not Harlan Ellison related - as so many things are not Ellison related these days - I had the yellow board, or the Goldblum board as long time posters and lurkers may recall.

If I had something that was specificly related to Harlan, be it a book appearance, a review, or the occasional question, I'd throw it over to this side of the fence. A nice of division of focus.

What we have now is a situation that I think is intolerable. As most hostage situations are. I am supposed to restrict myself to Harlan related topics, post once a day, and keep it positive.

Here is my attempt at accomodating these new restrictions;

1.] This will be my only post here for the next 24 hours. I note that the only violator to this rule so far has been Diana Graham. This hardly surprises me. Hostage takers - people beyond the bounds of reason and civility often do whatever they like.

2.] Ellison content - Harlan, I have received your package. That was wonderful and my entire family is now in search of more of same. Thank you. Your package will go in the mail this weekend with insurance, etc.

3.] "keep it positive" Well, I am fairly POSITIVE that Ms. Graham has violated at least 2 of the restrictions placed on the new board configuration. I am quite POSITIVE that these newly imposed restrictions - only express Harlan thoughts OR only express HAPPY thoughts, unless you happen to be Diana Graham, in which case no social boundaries need apply - are DOUBLE PLUS UN-GOOD to couch this in terms that the ministry of information might approve of.

Everybody here has my e-mail. Anybody who wants my phone number can get it from me or Lynn or simply by looking me up. I'm in the book.

All in all it's a good life. Today Rick took away my favorite internet forum and I can no longer communicate freely and openly with my friends but it's a good life. It's a good life. It's a...

- Barney [Day 117]

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a brief surfacing...

Postby Peggy » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:29 am

Name: Peg
Source: unca20030523.htm
Hello all,

I hope no one's thought me rude lately. Due to myriad personal & professional circumstances, ranging from tragic to trivial, I've only had time to lurk since about December. I have been trying to keep up with you prolific monsters, and have as usual enjoyed most of the intellectual proceedings while recognizing for the most part I tend to be ill-qualified to participate in the discussion.

I've been gone for most of 3 weeks, and wish I was more surprised to find the board down on my return. I haven't caught up on the big board, but from comments here can surmise what happened. In my view, for a long time now, there's been a gradual decline in the civility and a gradual incline in the number of riffs, tiffs, flames, and general rudeness, albeit the real discussions have always been top quality. The fall was arrested a while back during shutdown #1. I hope the board can return after shutdown #2 with the lessons learned a little better. Even if it means a bit more control.

Rick, thanks so much for providing these forums. I will understand if it takes more than a rasher of thank you's to motivate you again after watching the deterioration of love's labor. It must be similar to watching your child fall in with the wrong crowd and the wrong habits. Whatever happens, you've done a great job. You're more kind and patient than most, and we don't deserve ya.

Harlan, I won't say much other than I've always enjoyed your writing, and of course our one brief chat. Still hoping someday to meet you and the other webderfolks over a cup-o-joe. However, as my travels are likely to take me even further away in the next couple of months, I don't expect it soon! I hope you don't get too sick of us and still come by for the odd visit. Best to you and Susan.



Postby Doug » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:19 am

Name: Doug
Source: unca20030523.htm
Harlan - Is the forthcoming VIC & BLOOD a reprint of the Richard Corben graphic work with additional material? A straight reprint of the 1989 publication? Or something else entirely?

Rick - All of the solutions I could suggest to you would only complicate your efforts to provide a casual gathering place - afford more control and safeguards, yes; but also result in an increase in your already insane level of effort to keep the place standing. And as a computer savvy webmaster, you already know the things I would suggest anyway, because they're basic.

I enjoy this place. When it is good, it is very, very good. When it is bad - well, yes.

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What has been said after reviewing posts...

Postby JaySmith » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:30 am

Name: Jay Smith
Source: unca20030523.htm
On my way out the door, a relatively lucid thought lit dimly the dark chamber of my empty head.

This is a pretty stressful time for us all. After all, we're at war. We've all got our personal issues to deal with, many of which are discolored or jaded by the shitty economy, personal tragedy or loss or just the brooding, droopy face of John Ashcroft peering in your window at night. Aside from the lively debate on the subject, the tone overall has changed. With the exception of the I-Con discussion and brief sparkling moments of personal accomplishment, we all seem to be - as others have mentioned - testier, less tolerant, more defensive. Normally cheerful joes and janes just go righteous with the absolute brilliance of truth versus those who stand ignorant with not so much as a pit to piss in to reflect that light. When I first arrived there was a warmth that is very much missing these days. Not to say its become a cold, ugly place - but there ain't enough duct tape and plastic wrap to hold out that black, corrosive funk that seems to be invading every aspect of our lives.

I hope to continue discussions with people I've met here elsewhere and I want to thank Rick for providing the forum that introduced me to such fine individuals. Its time for me to go back and read some of the stuff that brought me here. My oldest boy and soon-to-be-stepson are of age that they can start with the comics and Troublemakers. They know a little about the subject of this board, but not much of his work. Its time to change that and put a few more intelligent, inquisitive consumers in the market.

And Harlan: thanks for "The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore" which I personally hold as one of the greatest bits of American fiction ever written. Aside from getting me through a shitty part of life, it is a great format for writing exercizes and tutoring English/Creative Writing. God help them, despite my lazy spelling and typos, that's what I do sometimes, too.

We're living in dark times and everyone's got a bug up their butt about something these days. But you guys are very gracious and kind. Don't force Rick to shut this side down or more kids will be forced into the street, taking their bad attitudes to the USENET groups and the seedy intellectual cafes where they'd just cause more trouble. I beg you...keep hope alive. Peace Out.

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Melissa Reeston
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Forgot Something...

Postby Melissa Reeston » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:11 am

Name: Scott Reeston
Source: unca20030523.htm
Here's an email address, for any and all I'd invited to remain in touch. Notch the oversight up to cranial vapour lock, and accept my mea culpa. Thanks to Chuck and Frank for asking me to stay, but I think maybe it's time to move on. Can't help but feel it's time too. Eric, in his pithyness, hit it about right.

Oh, yeah, email address:

I'm setting this one aside as my M. Ellison file. Nothing but contact with those who read the patron author.

Barney: I broke the 'one post' rule as well. I believe I said, once upon a debate; "wrong is wrong, punish it." Just a case of the physician healing myself.

Again, Rick, thanks. Best to all, Scott and Melissa

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Jim Davis
Posts: 496
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Postby Jim Davis » Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:22 am

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20030523.htm
HARLAN: In all seriousness, WHO designed your beautiful (if somewhat odd-looking) wristwatch? Is it possible for a schlub like me to order one, or was it a custom-made, one-time-only sort of a deal?

I've already sent Rick a lengthy e-mail on Recent Events here, so I'll keep this to a minimum:

As much as I'd like to downplay the 'Net's impact on ANY portion of my psyche, the truth is, my time in Webderland has been one of the more edifying experiences of the past year-and-a-half. The people here have amused, elucidated, infuriated, puzzled, and even touched me--sometimes all at once. And if my weekend at I-CON was any indication of what you guys are like in Real Life, then I can honestly say that What You Read Is What You Get. Harlan, Susan, Bern, Doug, Rich, Barney, and (especially) Paula were as warm, funny and engaging as I'd thought they'd be. (And that's not excluding Garrett and Jackie [sp?], who are now honorary Webderlanders, whether they like it or not. I know, did I HAVE to condemn two innocents to a life of persecution and pogroms? Hey, what are friends for, if not to share the pain?) Hell, if it weren't for this board, I'd never have got off my tuchis and met Harlan in the first place. So, all in all, it's been a positive experience, and even if it ends, I'll still have some damned fine memories to comfort me in my dotage.

Bottom line: I trust Rick. Whatever he decides to do with this place, no matter how painful or confusing it may be, is probably for the best. So he gets my support, 100% of it, no matter WHAT goes down.

(Hey, we all need a vacation once in a while. We've been looking a little pasty, anyway. Those tan lines need CULTIVATING, people.)

Take care, everybody.


P.S. Maybe--if things stabilize and this place doesn't go the way of the dodo bird, milkmen, and Madonna's movie career--I'll sit down and rewrite my *THRILLING WONDER TALE OF I-CON 2002*. (I promise, this time I'll tap that "Save" key like it's attached to the pleasure centers in my brain.)

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Michael D. Blum
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When Bad People Happen To Good Places

Postby Michael D. Blum » Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:24 am

Name: Michael D. Blum
Source: unca20030523.htm
Naturally, I, too, will be sad to not be able to visit the Webderland board. Though I have yet to meet any of you face to face (other than Justin), I do think of most of you as friends, friends I someday hope to meet. My email is on every post I've made, for those who wish to keep in touch, and Lynn (I think) has my phone number as well.

That having been said, I would like to add my thanks to Rick, for providing such an interesting and comforting place for discussion. I dearly hope we may find such a forum again. And thank you for allowing me to communicate with The Man, whose writing has afforded me so much pleasure over the years. Harlan and Susan, thanks to you both, and best wishes from Alia and myself.

In a similar vein: As of three days ago, I find myself committed to a (possibly) hostile takeover of the theater company my mentor founded 25 years ago. "La Compania de Teatro de Alburquerque, Inc." rose to international awareness in a brief ten years... but under the artistic direction of the last decade, has been reduced to a community theater of the level of quality one might expect in a middle-school gymnasium. Finally enough people in the area have tired of it, and are willing to commit to restoring the dream we had so many years ago. I expect this process to be both unpleasant and difficult, but I look forward with hope for a venue where good art may once again flourish. Just as I hope to continue to communicate with you all.

Best to all,
Michael (and of course, Alia)

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Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
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Postby Harlan Ellison » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:00 am

Source: unca20030523.htm

BRIAN SIANO: Steve Hodel, ex-cop, was indeed the brother of the late, much-beloved Mike Hodel. If Mike ever knew the substance of Steve's amazing, shocking, petrifyingly awful contentions about their father(or even suspicioned it) ... I don't know. Mike never made mention of it to me, and we were pretty close. Mike died, of course, some time ago. I haven't read the book yet, but having known Mike so well ... well, it has a creepy resonance for Susan and me.

BARNEY: I have no idea where you got this mandatory "positive attitude" dictum. In fact, I thought I went to considerable pains in my last post to make it clear I have NO PROBLEM with people calling me to task. I merely suggested the callings not be of the quack nature. We certainly don't want you idly contravening a lifetime m.o. of seeing the darkest side of matters. Heaven forfend!

Oh, and by the way, my little dark-cloudened friend, it was not I who sent you that sweet "package," it was the Mrs. She's the one who ought to receive your thankee, not I.

DOUG: The forthcoming edition of VIC & BLOOD contains the complete Corben color graphic version of the three already-published sections of BLOOD'S A ROVER, plus all three of the text versions of the original stories ... together in one volume for the first time. New intro. Plus NEW material, such as "sidebar" excerpts from the never-to-be-published memoir "From the Wit & Wisdom of Blood" and some new Corben artwork that you haven't seen. But the Corben wraparound cover is worth the price of admission alone. This has been a sweet little Edgeworks Abbey / iBooks project. Give it a look. Should be out in a couple of months.

JIM DAVIS: I presume it was the odd-shaped BLUE watch to which you're referring. (I wore five different watches at I-Con, and cannot recall the specific one I wore that night at the "banquet.") But if it WAS the helical blue wristwatch, you can find it in the Flax mail order catalogue, or at the Flax store in San Francisco.

By the way, Jim, please acept a conditional "sort-of apology" from me. Your hyperactivity and elan occasionally got up my nose that rainy weekend, and I treated you less than warmly at times. Not at all proper behavior on my part. Let us not mention it again, but know that I ruminated on it later, and was mildly ashamed of my manner. Any number of otherwise pawky, negligible distractions got on my nerves those few days on Long Island. Sorry you were one of them.

JOHN K.: The 33 stories in MIND FIELDS (my favorite of all my books) took close to a year to write. Do I keep in touch with Jacek and his wife? I try to, but health, travel, deadlines and suchlike have thrown me far behind in simple correspondence; so I haven't communicated with him in several years. But I did meet him when he came over for a big LA signing. Sweet man.

Did I "accomplish what I set out to do"? Yes, I think so. But the final judgment, of course, is yours, oddly enough.

TONY: I'd have to take time out to listen to the tape to tell you what the other two songs are that I'm singing on that recording. And I haven't the time right now. Sorry.

And JEFFTY is with TWO "effs," folks. TWO. One, two. It makes me nuts when my readers read so sloppily that they spell him with a single "eff."

COOKIE: the "Aunt Babe" in "Laugh Track" was modeled on, and was an homage to, my Uncle Morrie's first wife, Kathleen, who was universally known as "Babe." She was a pistol, and I adored her. She died many years ago. But like the laugh on that track, she lives on forever in my memory, which is the subtext of the story. She always thought well of me, felt I'd amount to a hill of beans, and forgave me when I accidentally set fire to her basement by knocking over a steam iron. The only reason I made her Italian, rather than Jewish, is that I figured I'd written so many stories with Jewish characters and their attitudes, that I'd swing away into left field. But, on re-reading, well, it may have Italian phrases in it, et al, but the people in that story (sigh!) remain Jewish.

I only had two favorite aunts. Babe. And Lila, who is married to Morrie's brother, Lewell. She introduced me to mystery writing.

And that ought to hold the lot of you for a while. Welcome to lurkers who have been heretofore silent because that loveable double-dozen monopolized the Big Board. Barney may be right that this is a potentially unsatisfactory venue, but I, personally, like it a lot.

Yr. pal, Harlan

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Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:04 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20030523.htm
Protests against US hegemony in Baghdad, fucking loons nailing themselves to crosses, Dennis Miller ripping the ACLU last night on HBO; hell, I need this room just to get away from the fucking real world for a bit.


Sorry all for bringing up Eminem. Snort.

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Postby robochrist » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:01 am

Name: Rob
Source: unca20030523.htm
My positive, upbeat submission for the day:

Because of the release of a new 'Black Dahlia Avenger' book (we all need something to cash in on) and vintage media hype, police and morgue photos from the grisly 1947 L.A. murder seem to be pervading the Net. I never knew anything about this bizarre, twisted case until a year or two ago (thanks in part to a documentary on Discovery).

Well, I got a good solid, perverse, no-holds-barred dose of the images. It is among the most unearthly, repulsive, pitiful sights I ever set me eyes on. In terms of a "clean job" I wouldn't have thought anything quite like it was physically possible.

Yeah, I know. I have an odd idea of the upbeat. I'll try harder next time.

Turning to something a bit more salutary...

Harlan, I look forward to ordering that Corben Vic & Blood piece of yours soon, along with Hornbook; I still need the title containing your original STARLOST script as well.


I DO hold grudges, but rarely long. The few in my life that ever endured were - believe me - quite justified. The type ANYONE would justify. Otherwise, I do my best to forgive - particularly when an individual makes some effort at redemption (I've found, too, if I lose my cool with someone in an argument the best thing to do - usually - is go away for a while before I speak my mind, punch a hole in the wall, break up my furniture, shout profanities at my cat, beat the fuck out of my pillows...THEN, when I've mellowed, decide objectively if I was making a bad call. In the wake of the storm I often find I was at least partially wrong on my end of it or I was using a tone I wasn't aware of). I know when I fuck up I do what I can to redeem MYSELF; which leads me to look unfavorably upon people who refuse to forgive when THEY should.

Like good communication and true human connection, forgiveness isn't always easy to come by. I think these are all barriers tuned and variegated by the polychromatic keys of insecurity. Consequently, many people do seem to attach a price to everything. And if you haven't what MEETS their price they won't give you the time of day...fodder for mutual resentment, adding complexity to the cycle. It's an interesting equation to study.

Sorry, I'm babbling to myself again.

Chris L

Postby Chris L » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:25 am

Name: Chris L
Source: unca20030523.htm
"Golly!" as Clark K. might say. I come back after a self-imposed hiatus to find there's not nearly as much to come back to. You people really couldn't survive without me for even a few weeks? For shame!

Whatever noise there has been on these boards, the signal usually overwhelms it and that's a rarity on the Internet. I think Rick has a lot to be proud of and I hope we aren't going to lose the gift he so graciously granted us all these years.

HARLAN: I said this once before but it was probably when you weren't around but thank you for your recommendation of George Alec Effinger's _What Entropy Means to Me._ I read it at your suggestion just last summer and I've just finished reading it for the third time. What an amazing work. I was deluded enough for a while to think about what I might do if I wanted to adapt into a screenplay but then my head started to hurt too much and I decided it would just be insulting to try to change it in any way. I've managed to pick up a few other of the Mr. Effinger's books and enjoyed them all immensely. What a fine talent. I am not the most devout science-fiction reader but I'm still shocked and dismayed that I never encountered his work before.

With _What Entropy Mean to Me_ and, shortly before that, Kersh's _Night and the City_ you've recommended two books that I'd put on my "If it didn't change my life, it sure came close" list. So, uh, not that I'm, y'know, pushin' or anything but if you want to pipe up with any other of your favorite undiscovered gems then, well, all's I'm saying is I grant you my permission to do so. :)

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Postby BrianSiano » Fri Apr 18, 2003 11:31 am

Name: Brian Siano
Source: unca20030523.htm
Here's the website for the Flax catalog:

Harlan, thanks for the clarification re the Hodels. I haven't read the detective's book, so there'e not much I can say about the case or the case made about it. But it seems like a small relief that these allegations were made when Mike Hodel's not around to deal with the grief and attention.

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Postby LorinO » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:11 pm

Name: Lorin O.
Source: unca20030523.htm
HARLAN: I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Donald Maass. He is, in a word, a mensch. Not only is he a complete joy to do business with, but he's a brilliant teacher and one of those dream agents who actually RESPECTS writers and manages to communicate both enthusiasm for the craft and clear-eyed pragmatism about the business. I really couldn't ask for a better associate in this endeavor.

You might also be interested to know I'm working with another friend of yours, Stuart Kaminsky. We're just at the beginning of our partnership, and stumbling along given the economy of late, but I expect I'll have the same positive experience with him that I've had (and have) with Don.

Of course, you're my dream "catch," so if you're ever interested in tackling writing seminars again, give me a holler. :)

TO THE BOARD: Speaking of seminars, I could still use local coordinators in Chicago, Boston, and possibly Atlanta. So, if you're a writer or know a writer in that area who'd like to help put the word out locally (in exchange for a little cash and a free seminar), do let me know. My email's above.

TO RICK: Though I've been only an occasional poster and more constant lurker, I've always been struck by your graciousness, given the varying "temperaments" on this board. I also know from my limited experience what a challenge the maintenance and upkeep of the board must have represented. So, I completely understand your decision to close the other board, though I'll be sorry to see it go. Will maybe drop you a note about some other possible options.

Best to all -
Lorin O.

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Postby Cindy » Fri Apr 18, 2003 12:42 pm

Name: Cindy
Source: unca20030523.htm
I seem to be missing the boat translation-wise. Last night my six year daughter Paris inquired in passing why we keep going to church this week. I carefully expained Holy week and the miracle of Jesus resurrection on the third day. Seemingly satisfied she went off to watch Sponge Bob Square Pants. Later she returned perplexed, " So Moma-- is Jesus a Zombie?"


Yer just such a darlin' for a pinko commie! I swear NANCY REAGAN would even love you!


I LOVE highbrow, hyper-cerebral yankee city boys-- y'all are a sure cure for Rural catatonia.

yer pal,

I've learned a lot from you-- can you tell? Thank you for the example you set for me.


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