International Politics Debate

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Robert Nason
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Lori -- putting up a wall between Israel and the Paelstinian territories (terror-tories?) dramatically decreased terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. The Israelis moved all troops out of Gaza and Hamas used it as an opportunity to launch rockets over the walls. When Israel searches for weapobs onships heading to Gaza, Hamas gets indignant and uses it as an excuse to launch more attacks. But the wall separating Israel from the West Bank has saved a lot of lives. You'd want to put up a wall with neighbors who play rough like that.

The settlements are a controversial subject, I agree, but I don't really blame Israel for building much-needed homes in still-disputed areas while the Palestinian make up their minds whether and when to come to the negotating table. If they ever do decide, Israel is fully capable of paying (and even forcing) the settlers to relocate (as the Israeli government did with the settlers in the southern Sinai in the early eighties after Israel agreed to return Sinai to Egypt as part of the Camp David peace accords.

Frank, know as well as I do that we Jews are among the most contentious people on the planet. As the old saying goes, put five Jews in a room and you'll get six different opinions. So there what if there are eminent Jews who are anti-Israel? There were eminent Jews who were Trotskyists, too -- foremost among them Trotsky himself, who was adamantly anti-Zionist. But Trotsjy wound up in the dustbin of history (to use his own phrase), while Israel thrives.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Moderator » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:31 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Alright, Barber.

Nason, Hamas has secret meetings with Israel and 3 members have said publically that they recognize the reality of Israel. There's also the fact that most newer members of Hamas have probably never even read the charter.

Sure Abbas is making strides but the worry is that he will sell out. If he does, sadly, respect the worst.


Where did you read they have secret meetings? This sounds like a Ludlum novel...
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Robert Nason
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:32 pm

If those "secret meetings" with "younger," more moderate members of Hamas "who have never even read the charter" of their own organization (odd) amount to anything productive, I'll be the first to shout hallelujah.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Lori Koonce
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:52 pm

Hey Frank

If these meetings you mentioned are so damned secret, how did you find out about them?

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Robert Nason
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:05 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Hey Frank

If these meetings you mentioned are so damned secret, how did you find out about them?


LOL
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Robert

On a more serious note. I'm not just talking about the wall. What reason does Israel have for not allowing a more open border between itself and Gaza. With military service mandatory for all Israelis, surly they have enough people to man more than one opening.. And what military purpose is served by keeping things like cement, wood and steel out of Gaza all together. Those are necessary to build infrastructure and maintain it once built.

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Robert Nason
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:31 pm

Lori -- I confess I'm not knowledgeable enough about the particulars of Israel's military precautions towards Gaza. Suffice to say, perhaps, that Gaza is one of the most violent spots on earth -- look how much havoc they're able to create even with a wall. A good-hearted soul might say "Let's have a completely open border between Israel and Gaza with no inspections or restrictions of what or who goes in and out, and you'll see the Gazans will behave in a peaceful abd exemplary way." Unfortunately, Israel's experience with Gaza and Hamas (whom Iran has trained and armed) makes them a little less trusting.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby FinderDoug » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:38 pm

Frank -

It was widely reported beginning in 2002, with the Arab daily Al Waton, that Arafat was personally pocketing aid money intended for Palestine. The International Monetary Fund reported in September 2003 that Arafat had been skimming public funds as far back as 1995; SIXTY MINUTES followed that with reporting that Arafat had diverted $300M of public money into his own offshore accounts. A 2008 SIXTY MINUTES segment put the dollar value of money missing on Arafat's watch at that time around a billion US.

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:16 pm

Well, I will look into the whole Arafat deal. Do be careful when dealing with news surrounding a controversial figure, especially an arab one who tended to be hated by the media.

Our media is highly reactionary on the Israel issue. Always find that fine tooth comb in details surrounding these issues. I will say Rashid Khalidi is not fond of Arafat.

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Nason, best not to throw stones when you admit that you do not want to look into what is going on in Gaza. Read Amira Hass, she lives in the area.

It is odd to see Lori on my side. lol

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:29 pm

Frank

You are twisting Robert's words to suit your damned agenda aren't you.

How else do you get from his admitting a lack of knowledge to him not wanting that knowledge?

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:36 pm

My eyes are wide open and I want as much knowledge as I can get. I don't fear truth, but I do dislike deception. (Of course, I can only absorb so much information, even on subjects that strongly interest me. Only human here!)
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby FinderDoug » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:20 pm

Do be careful when dealing with news surrounding a controversial figure, especially an arab one who tended to be hated by the media.

Our media is highly reactionary on the Israel issue. Always find that fine tooth comb in details surrounding these issues. I will say Rashid Khalidi is not fond of Arafat.

Frank, I appreciate your concern. Understand that I've got a Masters in Journalism, and I've worked as a reporter, including a year of investigative reporting on the murder of Daniel Pearl. I know from interview, nuance, research, vetting and due diligence.

And realize that you assume a burden of proof for yourself when you make statements such as "an arab one who tended to be hated by the media" (illustrated this alleged "hatred" - examples of specific media) or "our media is highly reactionary on the Israel issue" (my research indicates that it was several years from the first Arab newspaper reporting Arafat was stealing and the US media doing an in-depth investigation - so much so that at least one Israeli news outlet noted when CBS did its second piece that the Israelis had been making the assertion "for years" - a curious delay by our media if he was, as you say, "hated".)

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Robert Nason
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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:19 pm

Hey, I'm old enough to remember Arafat brandishing a pistol at the podium of the United Nations and receiving waves of rapturous applause from "the international community." And that was just three years after Arafat's PLO murdered the nine Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics in Munich. So yeah, I can truthfully say Yassir was one Arab I hated back then, and if he was alive I'd hate him now
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:28 am

You know my stance on journalism schools, but I don't want to ire Barber. lol

Arafat, beyond his flaws, represented the Palestinians--those are the facts on the ground--he had to be dealt with, because that was what they had on their plate, just as our side must deal with the awful Netanyahu, hoping the peace side will invade the government some day.

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Nason, the way to deal with human rights is to be color and race blind. No person deserves special human rights. Jews are not holy and neither are Palestinians, their humanity is equal in the eyes of God and the world. But does a Palestinian weigh as much? The media reaction pretty much tells the tale.

The other thing to remember is anybody is capable of evil, jew, bond, greek or free.

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Re: International Politics Debate

Postby Robert Nason » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:37 am

FrankChurch wrote:
Arafat, beyond his flaws, represented the Palestinians


That's the first tine I've seen the word "represented" as a synonym for "stealing someone blind." Arafat did far more harm to the Palestinians than he ever did to the Israelis. History -- no matter WHO writes it -- will remember him not as a statesman or nation-builder, but as a terrorist, murderer, and thief. He could not create, only destroy.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion


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