Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Frank: I tried to help you, but you're on your own on this one.

Barber: I suppose I missed that one because my avatar IS me.

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Lori Koonce
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Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun May 13, 2012 5:33 pm

OMG, I've gone and done something I never thought I would EVER do in this lifetime.

I've actually gone on the public record as disagreeing with my life long idol.

Wonder what made me do it and in the way I did it.

We'll have to see how it all turns out.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby diane bartels » Sun May 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Lori, girlfriend, you always had a giant pair. You have a lot of courage and enormous strength. I respond to Tim the way I do, because I think he is in a lot of pain sometimes. But I suspect several of us are. And we help each other over it. And through it. Harlan respects courage. I hope Tim comes to trust us enough to share his pain before it becomes unmangeable for him. As we share here, in our safe place.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun May 13, 2012 7:43 pm

Diane

I don't know if you saw the post at the Pavilion, but I'm just surprised that I could ask HE "How many times does a dog get to shit in the corner before you refuse to let him back in?"

That's what surprised me. And I'm rather frightened about the response if I get one at all.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby diane bartels » Sun May 13, 2012 8:03 pm

Harlan respects courage. I think he counts on Susan and his real friends to not be afraid to be themselves around him.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby David Silver » Sun May 13, 2012 8:41 pm

Lori, I am completely absolutely 100% in your corner. Odd, this incident exposes the profoundly good side of Harlan that too few people (other than those of us who know him dearly) acknowledge exists. Harlan is as good and true as anybody I've ever met. But I don't think he realizes that in this situation he's only making himself the highest of high profile enablers for a man who will only get better, if ever at all, when he hits bottom. Harlan clearly doesn't understand that the ONLY way to help Tim is to NOT forgive him. Of course, Tim is a charming convincing erudite schmoozer when he gets on the telephone with Harlan to plead his case...just like ALL alcoholics and drug addicts and slaves to whatever mood altering condition ails them. Forgiving them NEVER WORKS. Intolerance and ostracism is the ONLY WAY. Hearing them say they're sorry, and that they can't help it because it's out of their control, and that they'll promise to do better, well, it's three self-serving lies rolled into one. It takes time, a LOT of time, for someone like this to change. It takes proof, a LOT of proof, before someone like this can be trusted. And it takes "a giant pair" to have the guts to turn away someone like this when all our societal instincts tell us we should try to "help" and "understand" their pain and suffering. If you REALLY understand and you REALLY want to help, you show them the door. Don't tell them how much you love them or care about them or feel their pain. That only reinforces their behavior. You tell them the TRUTH, that loving them and caring about them and shouldering the pain they cause is TOO MUCH. Lori, you clearly understand. You look in the mirror, you be honest with yourself, and you make choices. Tim is playing Harlan for a chump, and that pisses me off more than anything else. Nothing gets me hotter under the collar than seeing somebody I love taken advantage of. I really really really hope Harlan is right this time, but I'm not betting on it. Meanwhile, Lori, good on you for having the guts to throw your "giant pair" on the table and challenging everybody to think. Most of all, maybe Harlan...
We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.

-- George Bernard Shaw

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun May 13, 2012 9:31 pm

David

I'm not going to go into details, but Tim and I have something in common. There was a time in my life, before I wanted to get better, where I caused my immediate family a great deal of pain. I'll never forget what my father told me the day he decided I had to leave home. "The state of California says that I'm responsible for you for 18 years, you are now 28. Do the math." When that didn't sink in the way he expected it was "If I have to choose between my wife, to whom I made a life long commitment, and my grown child, guess who I'm picking."

I was then told that I was never going to be able to spend more than three days in a row with my parents. People think that is a rather harsh thing to do to your child. But, my father knew, and I later learned; that unless he did that I'd have been a grown up teen. Meaning I'd still be living at home and acting like a bratty teenager.

I am looking at Tim and how he behaves, and thinking that he's never going to learn how to behave correctly as long as his friends are all there supporting him and his bad behaviour. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for a person is to cut them out of you life.

Tim and I are both good at using words, and sometimes actions if necessary, to get people to "keep us in a manner to which we've become accustomed". I knew how to play mom against dad, friends against friends and never have that make me look like the manipulative little bitch that I was. Tim seems able to play that game just as well if not better than myself.

I just hope that Harlan smells the shit before he ends hip deep in it.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Moderator » Sun May 13, 2012 10:25 pm

Lori -
I've talked to Harlan about this and rest assured it was not an easy decision. No further details. But I'm going to echo David's assessment of your post.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby FrankChurch » Mon May 14, 2012 10:44 am

Lori, speak the truth, even to the whirlwind. Isn't that the point?

Harlan can take it.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon May 14, 2012 11:34 am

@Barber: Both you and David have a relationship with Harlan that I most likely will never enjoy. So I trust that your assessment of the situation is the correct one.

All I can say is that I said everything that MY relationship, such as it is, with Harlan allows me to say in good conscience has been said. If directly asked for clarification, I'll give it. If I get the chastisement I'm expecting I'll take it with all the grace I muster.

@Frank: Speaking truth to power is a vital necessity. But, it helps if you can put that truth into words that Power will actually listen to. As I told diane, that phrase "how many times does the dog get to shit in the corner before you refuse to let him back in" wasn't the best way to put that, and I freely admitted it then, and now.

I just hope that the meaning behind it, and not the words themselves speak for me!

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby David Silver » Mon May 14, 2012 12:57 pm

Hey Lori, despite whatever level of relationship any of us has with Harlan, a more important point in my mind is that I won't express my (I believe HIGHLY informed) opinion on the matter to Harlan in the Pavvy for that most simple of reasons: he didn't ask it. If Harlan called this morning and said, "Dave ol' buddy, what do YOU think about this Tim Raven imbroglio?" I'd have no problem telling him everything I outlined in my message below, only with greater detail and urgency. To ATC on the Pavvy, if I cared to answer his note (I really don't because, as I stated above, Harlan hasn't asked...), I'd challenge him by saying I'd gladly walk up to the host, point out the abusive guest, and say he had to do SOMETHING about the guy because it not only was wrecking the party, it also reflected very badly on the host. Sometimes you have to speak up and save a friend from his own folly. I'm not there...yet. I'm not sure exactly what folly this is with Harlan. I think he's done the wrong thing by letting Tim Raven back in, but if it blows up again, well, THEN I'm going to have to say something to Harlan, and I guarantee I will say it with a very high degree of insistence. None of us have any idea what buttons Tim Raven knows to push on Harlan, none of us has been privy to those conversations, but I think many of us know how gifted compulsive depressives can be at wringing empathy out of the trusting people around them. I have my own extensive history dealing with such people, plus training in how to handle it. I'm not saying Tim Raven is an evil or malicious character, he's clearly powerless in the face of his condition, but his BEHAVIOR is evil and malicious and manipulative and dishonest and demanding of enabling and all the rest. Compulsive behavior CANNOT be treated or controlled by any other means than the afflicted person TRULY seeing what they are and making their OWN concerted long term difficult daily conscious effort to change. A promise one day is completely worthless. It is a LONG period of day to day personal surveillance and honest appraisal until the craft of effective non-abusive social interaction becomes almost an automatic habit. Tim Raven will NEVER get better if people forgive him. Just the opposite, the more people forgive and accept Tim Raven, the more rigid he will become in his OWN excuses and acceptance of his condition. He needs to be shown the door, and not allowed back for a LONG time, and then only with substantial proof that he has taken control of his life. Yes, that means he may never come back at all. But always remember, his is a condition that doesn't effect him alone; it effects EVERYBODY around him. The "cure" for his circle of relationships is simple: kick him to the curb and wish him luck. There is no cure for him, only learning to control, and until he has proven he can do that, he can have no relationships at all. It's not cruel, but it is cold, a "cold equation" if you will. It's what must be done, or Tim will never get better, and his condition will continue to afflict everybody around him.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon May 14, 2012 1:18 pm

David

It's as I told ATC, if Rick would have put his post in another place, I'd have posted my objection there. But he didn't, and I don't want him thinking that there are no objections, when in all likelihood, no one wanted to speak up on the subject.

And I don't envy you your position with Harlan. If I end up alienating him, I don't loose anything. He'll still write, and I will still read. But you've got a valued friendship that may end up on the line. I just remember the wake of ill feelings and broken relationships I left behind when I was acting like he is. And, if at all possible, I'd love to spare Harlan that trauma. Doubt I will, but at least I can look in my mirror and like the person looking back.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby David Silver » Mon May 14, 2012 1:31 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:...but at least I can look in my mirror and like the person looking back.


You have every reason to like that person. She's special, and I like her a lot as well!

I see your point about addressing Rick's suggestion that there were no objections. The problem there is that nobody asked.

Time to move along. Tim Raven will dig his own grave...

In the meantime, if I *do* get that call from Harlan...

No, move along.
We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.

-- George Bernard Shaw

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon May 14, 2012 1:47 pm

:oops:

You are a good Man David...

Good enough that I'd like you to send me an Email so we can have some coffee. It's been way too long since I've seen that handsome face of yours.

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Re: Wonder when I grew such a giant pair....

Postby David Silver » Mon May 14, 2012 3:21 pm

Lori Koonce wrote::...Email so we can have some coffee. It's been way too long since I've seen that handsome face of yours.


I'll have to take your word for that. All the mirrors in my house are broken. Before cracking, I heard strange whisperings from within the glass: "The horror, the horror!"

Coffee always sounds good. Finding the time to do it has become next to impossible. Life has been far too "interesting", in the wrong ways. I'll see what I can do...
We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.

-- George Bernard Shaw


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