never mind

[Steve Evil]

Well WE love you Steve, and I don't care if that IS a one liner. . .

[FinderDoug]

Jan,

I think you've missed part of the point of this place.

There's been a social component to this site since its inception, sixteen years ago. It has since the beginning of the recorded archives consisted of information exchange and Ellison-related tidbits. It has consisted of one line quips. It has consisted of off-color humor, of name calling, of goofiness that has its use in the moment and maybe not the following day. It has, flying spaghetti monster help us all, consisted of endless Lists of Things. It has consisted of flames, discontent and dislike. It has consisted of thought-provoking questions. It has consisted of "holy shit" elephant in the room moments.

It has consisted of what people consist of.

Harlan would be the first to say he doesn't care for pedestals or shrines. To have a concern that there is some kind of taint to this place because the content isn't always buttoned-up scholarly fu is completely missing the raw, child-like joy of life that Harlan, now in his seventies, still embraces.

Do we squabble? Disagree? Can we be petty and unforgiving and smug? Can we be the first to take umbrage and the last to realize our defecation actually stinks? Do we sometimes blow off steam here simply to do it?

Does a bear wipe his ass with a fluffy bunny in the woods?

But we do so because we are, in the final analysis, among friends. And if you were ever a misfit, Jan, then you know how fucking A-1 important this kind of place, where you can be yourself without being worried about it, is to a former misfit.

We're each a reflection of the things we have found in Harlan - intellectually, socially, artistically, fannishly, screw-loose-ishly. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. It's part of what makes this site a wonderful place to exchange ideas, and I wish some of the old regulars who've moved along would return to the party. People drift, interests change, and sometimes, personalities can't be overcome. Some flame wars leave charred dead, and it's unfortunate. The travelers to this site have had their share of difficulties and conflict with one another over time. The truly rancorous usually find their way to the door, and have only rarely had to be shown out. Especially virulent trolls have found camaraderie against their drive-bys, and they fade baby, fade in the face of it. And while there may be one-joke posts that offend your sensibilities in some fashion, or threads that don't pass your sniff test, these are all the same people who are there for one another when the shit hits the fan - when loved ones are lost, when life situations turn to shit, when disaster strikes - and when there is joy to celebrate, the successes, the turn-arounds, the victories great and small - are there. Sometimes with a hug, sometimes with a quip, sometimes with that little extra splash of goof that reminds us of something Harlan is fond of saying: you are not alone.

It's one thing to not care for a random brain-droppings - this is your right, taste is subjective, YMMV. It's another thing entirely to want to rule such things by one's subjectivity and eliminate them based on one's preference.

Or, as I once heard someone say, if you don't like fart jokes, then living in South Park might not be your thing.

[markabaddon]

OK, back after finishing up at least one negotiation and trying to catch up on everything I missed

Jan, I have no wish to pile on, but I also do not agree that thsi board is a "mess". Is it perfect? hell no. However, from visitng various other boards, OK mostly related to baseball, but there is a great deal more civility that can be found here than in pretty much any other site

Barber, you have done a great job here and whiel I have done so privately, allow me to thank you publicly for all of the excellent work you have done here in the Forums

Doug, you are one helluva writer my friend. Wonderful posting

Mark

[admin]

I think there's probably room for both. I would not want to lock down the present forums the way you want, Jan, but I could very easily see giving you either a separate phpbb or an adjunct to this one to do what you are talking about. The forums as they stand are not and never will be a medium for consistent work on a high academic or professional level. But there is nothing to say if you think the reviews / synopses section should be forum-based rather than wiki-based that you could not take that on.

My preference would be to have the wiki be the basis for it and have a link to forum discussion from there. I think we need to give people a single entry point to find stuff, even if all they find is a link to another part of the site. But given that I don't see there is not room for your vision, provided you are willing to bend at least a third as far as you are asking others to.

Also, to be clear, the goal of the site redesign/wiki *is* new contribution as well as the inclusion of old material into a 21st century format. Before there is a serious effort to encourage contribution as well as a reasonably organized and modern mechanism for people to use I am not sure we can make statements about the quantity or quality of those contributions. I tend to share your feeling that they will be an extremely mixed bag, and it would be up to the people responsible for a section or the overall site to set the tone and edit appropriately. In general, though, I would rather the net we throw out be wide rather than selective.

I really cannot afford to pay for the site or take the few hours it takes in maintenance a week for much longer. And I hate to say it but even within this company there are those who cannot be kind with any consistency. I will not be responsible for providing an unregulated harbor for people to hurt others. So unless something DOES happen you may be looking at a placeholder for the forums or the entirely of harlanellison.com in the near future.

Keeping either of these from happening should probably be top priority for people who care about one or the other.

[Douglas Harrison]

I can volunteer a few hours on weekends as the moderator (or backup moderator) of The Moving Finger.

Godspeed to the lot of us, but to the beneficent Captain Wyatt (Ret.) in particular.

Steve B., thanks for hangin' in there so long.

D.

[Moderator]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the support, and really have appreciated it all along. Everyone has their own view of what these boards ought to be, and that's fair -- and that's why it's someone else's turn to take the reins. And, if I don't like what they do I reserve the right to walk away, as we all do. And, if I see the new Mod, whoever that might be, behaving improperly or doing things with which I disagree, I'm going to speak up just as I always have. I have skin in this little corner of the world.

I'm not abandoning the place, just taking more of a backseat role -- or passenger seat if things work out that way.

But the cool thing is the friends I've made and some of the truly interesting debates we've had on the boards. We just need to figure out how to continue to move forward and adjust. It's called progress.

Thanks.

[Peggy]

Steve - I've never had any issues with your moderation, but recognizing that there is more than one right way is a sign of true wisdom. I wish other people in power (*coughpoliticianscough*) were so philosophically enabled.

[admin]

There is a signup post now. This discussion can certainly continue, but I'm going to take questions in the other thread as well.

[admin]

For example: I need to know how to get a minimal version of the announcement where people on the pavilion who wouldn't ordinarily be on the forums under any circumstances, who might not use email or even the internet once, who maybe are lucky they can even get to the pavilion regularly in the first place.

The issue of course is that this has to happen without causing ANY discussion on the pav or without it raising Harlan's threat level past Burnt Sienna.

[FrankChurch]

Barber has been a moderator for a huge amount of actual time. There is lots of turnover in the world of online blisterings, so his turnover makes complete sense. Love for the man knows no bounds, especially with his bile jockeying when dealing with mwa.

Wyatt is our hero as well. His frisbee throws are never crooked, unlike our souls.

[admin]

Pretty much where I stand with Barber as well, frank. To a T.

[FrankChurch]

Yes, Daddy.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Yah, I'm glad Barber's put up with it this long. Amazed, really. And as has been said, it's far from the worst.

Jan, I certainly understand your viewpoint, & that's why I'm glad you have a chunk of the Webderland to focus on the "serious Ellison" stuff. I simply don't believe that this is why most of us make the site a regular stop-by point.

In the past two years, I've abandoned membership in two forum sites & shied away from another. In all three cases, the membership is about ten times what it was when I joined, the Mods have cracked down on stuff like off-topic nattering & asides... & posting is a fraction of what it was. All have fallen back to noobs asking the same old questions, & the OldPharts giving tired, terse answers -- helpful, but not particularly interesting. (One of them is deliberately ignoring their policy of deleting inactive accounts after six months -- we figure they're building the "member" numbers in preparation for sale.) Where I used to pop by two or more times an evening, it becomes weeks between visits, then months.

[Jan]

My preference would be to have the wiki be the basis for it

That's fine with me, having given it some more thought and realizing better that you meant it as a "single entry point". I would approve of it and be willing to help if we all agree up front that it will stay a single entry point and not become Harlan Ellison's Wikipedia. I expect that it will hold, in terms of content, what Webderland now contains, along with whatever new features seem a good idea.
Like I indicated, I don't have too much hope for new content and wonder if, indeed, there is any additional type of content people could need that isn't already available somewhere.
--
Steve, you knew what my criticims of the forums are and you should also keep in mind that this was the right time to repeat them, even if they represent a minority of one.
I think it's not justified to claim that such criticism is exactly why you resign. I've posted maybe five times in the last two years or so and not criticized anything since about the same amount of time. Furthermore, I have not criticized you personally in one word and I'm not seeing anyone else criticizing you or forum policies. While I realize you are "fed up" with *something*, I refuse to be among your scapegoats.
When I suggest that the forums would benefit from a slightly modified set-up and an additional rule or two, this is not strictly moderator business but part of what all of us and the administrator would have to discuss, decide on and implement. The moderator is the guy responsible for daily conduct. If I had problems with how you moderate the forum I would not hesitate address you personally. I did not mean to suggest that you are not doing your work properly. We have in the past disagreed on what a moderator CAN do along with his standard duties, should he/she have the time and inclination, but since you did not see yourself as that type of moderator and everyone, me included, has accepted this, you have no reason to be offended by any remarks made in an open discussion about forum administration.
--
In the past I have suggested two or three easy ways to improve the forums that put no major restrictions on anyone but help make it more attractive to visitors interested in actual discussion. I don't miss "part of the point of the forums", I just think the part you are referring to, Doug, is driving out the other parts a little more every year. But I have gotten used to not visting the forum much, so I'm fine with whatever happens next.

[FrankChurch]

Jan, very whiney. Barber had a load on his shoulders. Best to thank him and move on.

I'm glad your dog has finally stopped smoking. Bad habit, that.