Liberty vs Security

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:06 pm

What about the basic question: do people even care about liberty? I would surmise in their hearts they prefer to be protected from an invisible dark force, even if that means dismantling real freedoms, which to them mostly means letting lefty artists paint with their blood or shit.

Scarborough's nutty meme about how we are a "center-right" country. Business wants to control society, but how do they do that when people can vote them out? Control the people. Pretty obvious reality ever since Rome.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Moderator » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:27 pm

FrankChurch wrote:What about the basic question: do people even care about liberty? I would surmise in their hearts they prefer to be protected from an invisible dark force, even if that means dismantling real freedoms, which to them mostly means letting lefty artists paint with their blood or shit..



Valid comment. I've noted a strong undercurrent of "individual freedoms" when the speaker is a beneficiary. When it works against them, however, is when the government needs to be assertive in denying them.

Case in point: deregulate gun ownership, but legislate who can be married.

Another case in point:the government has screwed us by taxing us, but insurance firms who do essentially the same thing through premiums are good guys who need to be deregulated. (Hint: Death Panels do exist, but they're in the employ of insurance firms, not the government.)

Yest a third case in point: "Government is too invasive and needs to get out of my business" versus "Yeah, the Patriot Act is a good thing. If you haven't done anything illegal you don't need to be worried if they're tapping your phone".

Many, many other examples.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:59 pm

Imaginary freedom is the desire to escape the consequences of your actions.

Real freedom is accepting responsibility for your actions. If you're willing to pay the piper as it were you are free to do anything. There are so few people in this world who are willing to hang around and pick up the check. But these are the only truly liberated people there are.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:06 pm

When corporate heads get led off in handcuffs on a regular basis then we can talk.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:01 pm

People defend the freedom they like, that's it. People never cared that the anarchists got crushed by Woodrow Wilson or Eugene Debs got jailed for handing out leaflets. We should defend speech we hate.

Anthony Ravenscroft
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 4:04 am
Location: Crookston, MN
Contact:

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Anthony Ravenscroft » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:15 pm

I'm still marvelling over how I can't have a toenail clipper in my pocket, but I could carry a couple of rapiers onboard. Maybe it's just me, but that feels like they confiscated my derringer & ignored the big long case marked RUGER.

Pan Am 103 was brought down over Lockerbie by a tricked out portable stereo -- a device known ironically as a "boom box." So I'm not impressed by an explosive printer. What did "we" learn the first time around? In 2006, I took my old PowerBook -- my fave on-the-road writing tool -- halfway across the country; though it got some quizzical looks, nobody asked me to actually turn it on & prove it wasn't just a guise.

Thanks to my mom, I grew up reading novels of mystery & suspense. Since then, I've hung out with graduates of Special Forces & the Marshall Service -- the damage that can be done with a clipboard or credit card is amazing, & Mont Blanc pens should be registered with the cops.

I've got this nifty knife with less metal than a disposable Bic pen. Ceramic blade, super sharp. You can get your own at any half-decent cookware store.

Meanwhile, "we" have done almost nothing to improve protection of various chemical plants, or to protect the food supply chain.

Looks like the TSA is still stuck in "tiger charm" mode: pay me $10,000 & you'll nver be killed by a tiger as long as you wear it. Better still, require people to pay me $10,000 each, then crow triumphantly about the millions of lives that you've saved...

Bleah. :roll:

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:48 pm

They cannot touch my junk unless they are wearing something lowcut and a thong.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:05 pm

Well I'm heading out in the morning to travel by airline.

I'm not planning on wearing any shorts so if I never post here again you'll know why.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
NeonMosfet
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:36 am
Location: E=MaCy^2
Contact:

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby NeonMosfet » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:04 pm

Happy Thanksgiving, anyway, to one and all!
Myopia Through Convexed Harlequins

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:10 pm

Neon, you too and rest of you awful Americans I love so much.

Liberty is turkey farts.

User avatar
NeonMosfet
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:36 am
Location: E=MaCy^2
Contact:

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby NeonMosfet » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:47 am

And then we ate the bird. Sort of make the case for vegetarianism.
Myopia Through Convexed Harlequins

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:18 am

Along the same lines, as much as I abhor the organization and their repellent attitudes, this waqs the only decision the Supreme Court could render.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/sc-dc-0303-court-protests-20110302,0,3091623.story

"I do not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

Sadly, Westboro Baptist followers will never understand the irony of their own protections while they try to silence and vilify others.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:00 am

while they would probably welcome it, i haven't noted their (Westboro Baptists) attempts to silence anyone.
but as to their tendency to vilify; that was just what alito's dissenting position was on the matter.
""Our profound national commitment to free and open debate is not a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case," he wrote."
Slander may be a difficult path to take, but i wonder if that, by way of hate speach/crime, is where this could go next.
The toughest bit might be that the protester's posters claim "God Hates...".
Try getting them on the stand. :roll:
follow your bliss,mike

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:51 am

FrankChurch wrote:What about the basic question: do people even care about liberty? I would surmise in their hearts they prefer to be protected from an invisible dark force, even if that means dismantling real freedoms, which to them mostly means letting lefty artists paint with their blood or shit.

Scarborough's nutty meme about how we are a "center-right" country. Business wants to control society, but how do they do that when people can vote them out? Control the people. Pretty obvious reality ever since Rome.



I suspect that in any period when this question arises prominently, there is a general lack of understanding of what Liberty means. I would not be at all surprised that for most people, it means freedom from worry. The notion that we have to defend someone's freedom to do something we don't like is counterintuitive and the more satisfied one becomes the less willingness there is to tolerate discomfort.

Which is what made the Frontier so useful here in previous eras. There was a place where you could go and be free to do anything you could (though often it was the freedom to die) and the unstated choice was simple---stay in the east and follow the rules (no matter who set them) or leave. We now no longer have the Frontier, not in that sense, so we're having to about-face and deal with the question of who sets the rules and what they will be. Which means grappling with this concept of Liberty.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Liberty vs Security

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:22 am

much of the us "frontier", "unowned" land, wasn't unused. It just wasn't codified by the new gang in town.
the liberties of the natives were...revoked.
there will always be freedom to what no one else wants, or where no one else lives.
liberties certainly are curtailed when people of disparate ways, needs, and beliefs find themselves in the same place at the same time.
i have no idea what most people think liberty is. But in my guesstimation, if there is more than 1 person involved, there may be the cause for some compromise. In itself, a tiny loss of liberty; you don't get everything your way.
follow your bliss,mike


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests