Hey Frank

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:51 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Barber, you do know that if Haitians were white it would still be in the media. The oil slick is huge news because it affects lots of white people.



You've never been to the Gulf Coast, have you Frank? Katrina was huge news because it devastated lots of brown-skinned people. Oddly enough, they still live there.

The oil slick is huge news because a) it's huge news, and b) people are watching the coverage, encouraging the media to spend more and more time on it.

The media really doesn't censor stories so much as decide what will get the greatest ratings. Don't blame the Editors, blame the audience.

(This is why we get two to three nights a week of American Idol, and only one newsmagaize per network, buried in nights with the smallest audiences.) Give the people quality programming and they'll turn to FOX REALITY. Show an even-handed documentary and they turn to FOX NEWS.

Face it, American audiences are pretty suck when it comes to supporting higher culture. If we weren't the Symphony would be playing STAPLES CENTER, MASTERPIECE THEATER would be on CBS, and Harlan'd be worth more than Stephen King.
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:08 pm

Frank

What good is a fact if no one is paying any attention? Know something about how the other side thinks, and you can frame your facts in a way that will at least get them to listen, if not out right change their minds.

The way you use facts isn't going to get me to listen to you, and half the time I want to point out the other side.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:09 pm

In my younger, more moderate guise I lived in Florida for a few years.

On Katrina they did mention the black people there and did some seering reporting, even Fox News, where Geraldo almost anal raped Hannity, who acted like the dying black baby was a waste of time. The media also over-hyped black looting in the city, did false stories about babies being raped in the stadium, gun violence. They avoided the story about the eleven black men shot by white men as they tried to cross the bridge. Palast did a story about the FEMA concentration camp. Another story backlogged.

Our cultural slog started after the advent of television. Big media found out how much money they could make, so they brainwashed the public with game shows, bad sitcoms, ads, soap operas, idiotic shows like Donnie and Marie. Sure you had Laugh In, MASH, All In The Family. In the video age tv became smarter, movies, oddly, became dumber. Radio really became conservative, because of the low rates of advertisement--you better give them big ratings or they will not pay the bills. Then there's the fact that art and drama got taken out of schools. They focused on math and history--history to brainwash the youngins, math to help them count change when they work at McDonalds.

Another reason to have a progressive country. We are the last hope for bringing art and culture back to the fore.

Bob McChesney, FAIR, have done good research on media. Big corporations and elites control what we see and hear. Note the one-sided look at the Flotilla story or the fact that Republicans are allowed to go to the right, but Democrats have to follow the "vital center." Why can't conservatives follow the vital center? The media's hatred of progressive ideas are raw.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:10 pm

Give me an example of the other side? Wink.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:40 am

(*ahem*)

It seems to me that two different issues are being discussed: the proper way to discuss (or embrace) ideas, and the preponderance in our culture of one set of ideas.
Lori says Frank should see the other side ofthe story; Frank says the other side gets enough attention as is. These are different issues, and need to be addressed seperately. I would agree with Frank that one side tends to be under-reported: that guys like Chomsky are not given a fair hearing, that certain issues are taken for granted (ie: military aid to Hait. The media took it for granted this was a good thing, and it probably was, I tend to think it was. But there is another side to that story that was not reported - evidence of the harm it caused and the aid it prevented that we never heard about).

So Frank is not wrong, but this was not what Lori was talking about (if I may presume to put words in your mouth Lori). Understanding any issue requires a close examination all available evidence, and all sides to the story. That one side gets more airplay than the other is quite irrelivant to this understanding. Evidence presented by a Right Wing think tank is not inadmissable just because it is from a Right wing think tank. It can only be countered with counter evidence. If such counter evidence cannot be found, we would have no choice as reasonable people but to accept the think tank's conclusions.

(Having said that, being aware of biases in evidence is certainly important. But biased information is not necessarily incorrect - it often is, but if so, it is still the task of the other side to find the counter evidence)

Let's have a test case: start arguing everyone!

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:55 am

Lori assumes I don't understand the counter-evidence. I do know it, since it is all over the media. Take tax cuts:

Their side: Tax cuts are good because they stimulate business, who will in turn create jobs, create wealth that helps the entire society.

Our--my side: Tax cuts are ok, in a good economy, but progressive taxation is the backbone of American progress. In periods of highest taxation you had the biggest periods of growth and middle class creation. I favor fair taxes for the vast middle, higher taxes for the upper classes--starting at fifty percent, which is lower than the seventy percent rate before Reagan. Income on capital gains should be taxed at the fifty percent rate, based on income. The other side wants capital gains taxed at zero. That would be great for them, since some rich folk have more than fifty percent of their income from capital gains.

They also say taxation is a form of stealing, taking money from people to give to other people, that it's immoral. Mention the fact that this ideal comes from Ayn Rand, who though charity giving/altruism, was immoral, because it made men give of themselves. She believed men should think of their own selves first. Most Americans should find this idea fundamentally immoral. Giving to someone else is what separates humans from monsters.

On taxes being stealing, I favor fair taxation and that it is right to worry about what taxes are wasted on. In many ways they are. Taxes go to a bloated military budget. We fund police and jails, when social policy is a better way to deal with crime or why crime happens in the first place. Taxes bail out corporations, which is wrong. The biggest bailout is defense contractors, who use war as a great way to get government subsidy. Ronald Reagan gave away more government money to corporations than any other President.

Taxes should be spent on things that help all people and if we had higher wages, the tax burdon would be lighter. Conservatives generally appose minimum wage increases and living wage laws. They say that those mandates hurt small business. My contention is that if workers have more money to spend, more small businesses will be created. As Henry Ford said, he wanted to pay his workers good wages so they could afford to buy his cars. Makes sense.

There's the dirty stain in the room: Conservatives use the term small business to shuck the populist strain, but they have always favored large corporations, who in turn put small firms out of business.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby diane bartels » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:28 am

Frank, have or anyone you ever loved ever been raped? And then threatened with further bodily harm by that rapist? I have been, and i was damn glad the police and a big old jail cell awaited this man. As i promise you would be if it happened to you. The other side for you, in facts which cannot be disputed because I fucking lived them.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:12 pm

Mr Evil: I just HATE it when people make my point better than I do. Thank you for making my thoughts clearer, even to me!

Frank: If you know all of this, then why are your arguments all so one sided. Like I said before people are more likely to listen to you if you present a more rounded thought process.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:50 pm

Lori, think of leftism this way--it's a self defense posture from bad ideas.

Steve Evil is one classy cat.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:55 pm

Diane, where did you get where I approve rape? omg mylady.

I was talking about the fact that most of the prison population is black--this is by design. When someone can get life in prison for stealing a piece of pizza or that several hundred people are proven innocent after DNA testing, eventually we have to rethink our prison policy.

Rapists? I'd kill them myself. So would Harlan. What I want to know is what makes someone become so debased that they do rape? And I don't want to hear no guff about human nature. I know longer buy that bull.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Moderator » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:37 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Diane, where did you get where I approve rape? omg mylady.


FrankChurch wrote:On Katrina they did mention the black people there and did some seering reporting, even Fox News, where Geraldo almost anal raped Hannity, who acted like the dying black baby was a waste of time. The media also over-hyped black looting in the city, did false stories about babies being raped in the stadium, gun violence.
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:10 am

I'm still not sure the above quotation connotates an approval of rape, though that is probably not the best expression use. . .

I do think that combatting poverty is the best way to combat crime. That's not to say it will eliminate crime: there will always be criminals, and there will always be law enforcers. But the rush to build more jails, make stricter laws, give the police bigger guns (okay, I made that one up, but very intense debates do arise with the introduction of new police hardware) could possibly be better spent elsewhere. . .

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:35 am

Steve

You are right on Police Hardware. If you Google the name Oscar Grant, you'll see what can happen when a relatively new Cop is given a gun and a Tazer and asked to wear them both at the same time.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:58 am

Barberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

You moderators are so damned technical. No kiss.

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby diane bartels » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:30 pm

Frankie, angel-face, darling, no way did I imply, think, assume you approve of rape. Quite the opposite. My point was there are times in life when it is wonderful to see a police officer heading your way. By the same token, I agree with Steve, we are too willing to incarcerate and too unwilling to treat the underlying prolems. And I agree with you, minorities are disproportionally arrested, convicted and sentenced to death in our country, a terrible crime in itself. I am anti-death penalty for all cases. In my case, it was an ex-boyfriend. To answer your questions re what causes/motivates rapists/sexual abusers, this ex-boyfriend was a drunk, who had been mistreated in his childhood rather badly, and he had profound anger issues. On the night in question, he surprised and almost killed me. First and last time he ever hurt me. Did he need therapy and meds? Most assuredly. Was he willing to seek that help? Nope. and until and unless he was, I and society needed protection from him. You better bet I signed the complaint and the order of protection, and this was even years ago, long before I was the self-confident strong woman I now am.

My point to you, and I am trying to say it with real love, cause I do admire you and care about you Frank, is there are two sides to every issue. Some cops are bad and abuse their power. Some are true heros and save people. Courts and prisons can be used in unfair and dicriminatory ways. But they also bring justice, and some people need to be in jail for others protection. When you let your passion lead you to make unfairly tilted statements, you lose most of your desired audience. When you make a point in a more reasoned manner, with a nod to the other side, it works better.

If the case of a person serving a life term for stealing pizza is real and not hyperbole, get me that person's name and I will start a defense fund and get Northwertwern law to look at the case. I am serious.

Let's start a socialism thread and discuss the issue. And Frankie, what i meant was Harlan and David are the smartest people here. You be plenty smart. Love Diane


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