Hey Frank

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:08 am

Frank

I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile now, but couldn't figure out how to make it sound like something other than an attack.

But, since someone else has broached the subject, I think I can ask.


You've demonstrated time and again that you don't want to know both sides of an issue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you even came out and told me that you knew all you needed to when I challenged you to look at both sides of the Israel/Palestine problem.

Now, explain to me how you can construct an effective argument if you don't know exactly what the other side is thinking? Not guessing or assuming, but truly know what they are thinking. You don't have to let them change your mind in the least bit. But, you would know how to better frame you argument if you would listen.

You get upset when people pick on your ideas. We'd have less to pick on if you acutaly came from a place of educated idealism, and not bombastic rhetoric.

I mean look at this way. You have a pain in your knee and two med students in the room. One is a First year and the other is a Third year. Who are you going to ask for advice. If you're smart, it would be the Third year. They would know a little bit more, and be able to make a more informed decision on your problem.

Well, and I only speak for myself, the same goes when writing here, or any where else you wanna spout opinion. The more well versed you seem on a subject the more likely you are to be heard.

Just my two cents, and if the Mod feels this is a personal attack, the I won't see this when I come back tomorrow and I'm fine with that.

Lori

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:15 pm

Through your view point you see my opinions as one-sided, through mine I see them as countering received wisdom. As you know, we are inundated with the "other side," so avoiding that is impossible. Now if dissident opinion was allowed to have the same weight in the elite culture as mainstream blather then you can use the silver hammer, but until that day we are the ones looking in the bakeshop window, only getting to smell the baked goods, without once getting a taste.

You cannot avoid "Israel's side" because it is all over the media. The Palestinian side, not so much. I cannot be awarded the prize of bad thinking when my thoughts can't even be uttered in the public square. Give dissident left views the same airing as Richard Haas or Robert Gates and we can talk.

Our side loses tenure, jobs, we get wire tapped by the feds. The FBI shoots us. The other side gets constant media attention. Our side has to yell with protest signs or maybe Al Jazeera has one of us on. Arundhati Roy has to speak at a Unitarian church while Dan Senor gets on Meet The Press and This Week. Bill O'Reilly can get on Sixty Minutes but not Chalmers Johnson, even though what Johnson says is more important.

When there's an even playing field than we can talk. You have to shout, because that's all we have.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:20 pm

Lori, what do you think of Abbie Hoffman, Paul Krassner?

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:39 pm

Frank

You and I both know that the playing field will never truly be level. So, quit making excuses please.

Hoffman was good, but he didn't have access to the types of information that you and I do, so that's an apple and orange comparison if there ever was one.

As for Krassner, I was reading the Realist while still in HS. So There!!

None of this answers the question though dear. How do you know how to effectively frame an argument if you don't know what the other side thinks? I don't know about you, but I've got little time to blow smoke and set up mirrors.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Well, the dissident view is that elites are trained how to think. They don't think with sound minds.

Education is indoctrination. Just ask our Steven Evil.

You can be a principled radical. I may not be one, but I am working at it.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:49 pm

You are talking with the same type of rhetoric you are accusing the other side of using. Right or Left jargon don't cut it for me.

Let me give you an example. If you are working for an NGO that is trying to raise money for Famine Relief in Haiti and you know that most of your base has children what would you do to construct an effective ad campaign for them?

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:11 pm

Lori, sorry, I finally get where you are going. You think I ONLY use rhetoric. I do use rhetoric, but I also use facts, where I give the sources. I read everything from Newsweek to the New York Times. How do you think I know they are biased? It took me years to understand this.

You don't become a radical to be popular, obviously. The truth hit me in the face and I reacted. There are reactionaries, people who are set in their ways, where they cannot change their minds, no matter what. You see that with conservatives more than libs. I'm open to having my mind changed. I just haven't seen enough sound evidence to do it.

I do like to type things out real fast, so that I can be finished. That I gotta work on. If I was being paid to write at some political newspaper, that would be a different aninal...lol

Any concerns are better handled in pms. Don't want you giving the mooks ammunition..wink.

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David Loftus
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby David Loftus » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:23 pm

I've told you folks repeatedly it's useless.

Give it up.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:40 pm

David

I know, but then again my patron saint is St. Jude; the saint of lost causes!

Besides, it helps me to make sure my own opinions are well informed and well formed.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:35 pm

There are reactionaries, people who are set in their ways, where they cannot change their minds, no matter what.

Frank I'm glad you're not like that. Reading your posts is so enjoyable because you're so unpredictable.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:59 am

No NGO would want me for a member. haha.

No, I would rather work with someone like Trans-Africa, that really have Haiti in their hearts. Some NGOs tend to be corrupted. The best thing is to have any money going directly to the victims.

Notice Haiti is off the radar. A shame. As is Africa.

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markabaddon
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby markabaddon » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:27 am

Lori, bubbela, what do you hope to accomplosh with this? I agree with the esteemed Mr. Loftus, it ain't worth it, just let this go

Mark
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:27 am

FrankChurch wrote: Notice Haiti is off the radar. A shame. As is Africa.


You're confusing "not in the daily media feeds" with "off the radar". If you search "Haiti relief" in most news sources online you'll see a still-active relief effort is going on.

You might as well toss in the Samoan and Chilean tsunamis...
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:13 pm

A point about Haiti that didn't get much notice apparently. A week or two ago the last contingent of American troops left the country. Some invasion, huh Frank?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Hey Frank

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:20 pm

After all the activism forced their hand. At the beginning the military completely controlled the relief, keeping out French aid, not giving credit to Cuba, your Venezuela.

We will leave Iraq someday too.

----------

Barber, you do know that if Haitians were white it would still be in the media. The oil slick is huge news because it affects lots of white people.


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