Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:55 pm

FrankChurch wrote:That's why I don't buy into their worldview. You take away a military base and the big government whiners will be out in the streets--"bring our base backkkk."

Also try to scale down military spending going towards Washington State. The liberal democrats there will turn into yowling war mongers at the drop of a sombrero.


Frank

Meaning no disrespect but here's where your thinking is VERY faulty.

Isn't part of a Congressperson's job to make sure that their district has jobs? And like it or not, in the area you mentioned all branches of the military pay good money. Not to mention the ancillary business that would be hurt by them leaving. All the restaurants, day care centers and what have you.

And lets forget, people go where the jobs are, 'specially military folks. So, you'd lessen the tax base for almost the entire state. Why make non military people suffer along with the military ones?

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby Moderator » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:04 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Middle class people worry that their class status will change if they lose their jobs.


Nonsense. If I lose my job I worry that I might lose the house, be unable to buy food, have my car repossessed, and put my family through unnecessary trauma because they're relying upon me to protect them from the outside world. My class status has far less to do with it than my ability to make ends meet day to day.

Just sayin'.
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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:11 pm

Yes, you would have to be a renter. You would be on food stamps. You would have to get a lower paying job. It would eat you up because of the class status you built up.

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David Loftus
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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby David Loftus » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:43 pm

Well, you know I wouldn't be worried, because I never wanted to belong to the middle class.

I'm from the one Fussell called the "X" class.

Besides, I lost my job already, more than 10 months ago, and I've never been happier or more content.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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FrankChurch
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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:18 pm

Yea, David, you are surely in a class all your own. hehe.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:09 pm

"X" class. It sounds exotic, experimental. You are on the leading edge, David. Pioneering a new frontier.

To boldly go...

And split inifinitives....

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby David Loftus » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:24 pm

"To (split) infinitives! And BEYOND!"
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:46 pm

Fussell has nine class structures:

Upper Rich--out of sight. Upper Rich. Upper Middle Class. Middle Class. High Prolitarian. Middle Prolitarian. Low Prolitarian. Poor. Destitute--out of sight.

Most of the country are High Proles. They are the working class. They tend to make the same amount of money as the middle class but they tend to have more freedom. They work harder, but they feel free once work is over. The Middle Class fears they will lose their jobs, so they worry all the time, because they are afraid of losing their class affiliations. High Proles tend to be very conservative. Very pro-work, very anti-government. Our problem is how do we convince the high proles to agree with progressive ideals? A hard one.

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby David Loftus » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:50 pm

What's endlessly astounding to me -- and I don't recall whether Fussell observed this, much less commented on it -- is how many low proles and even poor people will support policies that are detrimental to their own situation and far more in the interests of the upper middle class and upper rich than their own.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:15 pm

That's the main problem we have--most progressives are upper middle class or even rich and the proles turn their backs on them, sometimes for good reasons. The proles think that the liberal elites look down on people like them and in some ways they are right. You gotta admit, the right wing is good at showing the proles that they represent "average Americans like them."

Eric Alterman was talking about how people like David Geffen support raising taxes on the rich, even though the taxes would hit him and his wealth. The problem is that the proles are so far removed from the David Geffen types that they almost see them as aliens.

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:57 pm

Who, outside of college-boy marxists, sits around thinking about their "class affiliations"?

Americans seem to have two concerns.

Do I have what I need?

Do I have what I want?

Poverty tends to bring these concerns into sharp focus. Affluence tends to blur them.

The engine that drives the mechanism is the idea (or fantasy) of upward mobility. Although statistics show that most Americans spend their lives in the same economic category as their parents (call it class if you insist), no American is content to think that way. To put it crudely, the reason Americans don't reign in their masters is because they dream of becoming masters themselves.

And the 1% who own 80% of everything aren't stupid. They feed this idea at every opportunity. If you allow us our entitlements and priviliges then they'll be availible for you when you or your children "make it". Is it any mystery why Joe SixPack buys into this?

And to the charge of cynicism I just say get out and look around.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:41 am

I'll take a college boy Marxist over the head of BP any ole day. The oil spill pretty much shows just how bad corporate society is. They care for profit and nothing else.

Class distinctions exist, if you believe it or not. But you did pretty much get a lot of what you said correct.

Very reactionary of you Ez.

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby cynic » Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:21 am

follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby cynic » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:32 am

hi steve,
Barber wrote:Why does the social contract only come to play when someone is being deprived of benefits. Doesn't the social contract also mean that Californians ought to be able to reallocate some of the $68B we send to the rest of the country so that we can put our own economic house in order, and then resume paying for others?


the S contract is always in play, through state and federal congress. Signed, sealed and delivered. Reallocation will adjust as belts snug and people suffer, the starving will not be thrown from the boat, none want a mutiny.

cynic wrote:who is paying now ? (i won't marry these OECD stats., but just for now...) CORPORATIONS ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Incom ... ountry.svg


Barber wrote:Mike? So? Corporations pay those taxes as a result of money we give to them for services. We still, ultimately, pay the revenues that pay the taxes.
1. that money ends up with the feds, not in the corporations pocket (as a whole, there is disparity among corporations as well). We all paid paid prices we could bear, or took on credit. 2. The main "SO" was the ratio of corp/individual compared by nation. the corporations don't exactly get a free ride.

cynic wrote:yer not gonna like this either
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometax ... ysmost.htm

Barber wrote:No I'm not, because about.com is not a government site. It may say "usgovinfo" but it is no better or reliable a resource than is Wikipedia. I use blue (since you didn't like my red) to highlight where this is hardly authoritative or unbiased reporting.
----According to the ---Office of Tax Analysis---,
cynic wrote:"Feeling overtaxed? Under the U.S. income tax system, most of the taxes collected are supposed to be paid by the people who make the most money. Thanks to President Bush's tax cuts, that is exactly the way the system works, says the U.S. Treasury Department.
----According to the ---Office of Tax Analysis---, the U.S. individual income tax is "highly progressive," with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year.
•In ---2002--- the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.
•The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent of all individual income taxes in 2002. This group of taxpayers has paid more than 30 percent of individual income taxes since 1995. Moreover, since 1990 this group’s tax share has grown faster than their income share.
•Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.
The White House has announced it will lobby Congress to pass legislation making most of President Bush's tax cutting measures permanent."


Barber wrote:It appears this document hasn't been updated for roughly five years. I might also note that "top 50% of all taxpayers" is a ridiculous measurement. In 2007, using the statistics of The Tax Foundation, the average income for the top 50% was $1,083,243. Average. Go back and look at that number. Average. ----I'm in the top 20% and can assure you my own income is nowhere near a million buck, so somebody is skewing the average towards the top----- and it's above my own bracket.

The average for the bottom 50% is $32,261. Average.

In 2007, the top .1% -- one tenth of one percent -- of taxpayers earned 11.98% of the income in the country. The bottom 50% earned a smidge more: 12.26%.
(The source cited by the Foundation is the good ol' US IRS)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/23408.html
the numbers work steve "•The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 33.7 percent", the top 20% just doesn't put you in the "ultra", it's a modified bell curve.
the '05 data from Office of Tax Analysis indicate an even more "ridiculous measurement"
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/rep ... s_0508.pdf
Department of the Treasury May 2008 (page 2)
cynic wrote:unless of course you insist that only reps & teabaggers and cash based criminals cheat on taxes?

Barber wrote:Not in the least. But I'd be willing to bet that there are more dollars at stake when a .1% person cheats than if a 50%er cheats. And, well, who is going to have the better accountant, even if they're not cheating?
absolutely, an interesting approach has been the move to investigate swiss bank funds, which is going nowhere fast.
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Propaganda and the Arizona Immigration Debacle

Postby Moderator » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:56 pm

"Supreme Court extends rights of gun owners
The court's 5-4 decision in the 2nd Amendment case paves the way for challenges to laws restricting gun ownership, but Justice Samuel Alito says it will not 'imperil every law regulating firearms.'"

Damned "Activist Judges".
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


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