THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:06 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Popular culture is not seen as culture by snobs, not saying you are one. We are all pop culture militants.



Speak for yourself Frank. I love all sorts of pop culture, I just don't talk about it as much as others.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby AndrewR » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:47 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Popular culture is not seen as culture by snobs, not saying you are one. We are all pop culture militants.


I'm still waiting for you to clarify your remarks and all I get is more word salad. It's like you're channeling Ginsberg, badly.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:01 pm

Andrew

You haven't been here long enough to know this, but if you Frank is allergic to the phrase I don't know, but it sounded good at the time.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby AndrewR » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:10 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Andrew

You haven't been here long enough to know this, but if you Frank is allergic to the phrase I don't know, but it sounded good at the time.


Lori dear, I've been here longer than most (my posting history notwithstanding). I've been dealing with Frank since the days of the old black and yellow message board. I'm well versed in "Church-lish". That being said, I'm ever the optimist and I always harbor hope that I'll actually get a straight response. Hasn't happened yet though...

:mrgreen:
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:48 pm

AndrewR wrote:
Lori Koonce wrote:Andrew

You haven't been here long enough to know this, but if you Frank is allergic to the phrase I don't know, but it sounded good at the time.


Lori dear, I've been here longer than most (my posting history notwithstanding). I've been dealing with Frank since the days of the old black and yellow message board. I'm well versed in "Church-lish". That being said, I'm ever the optimist and I always harbor hope that I'll actually get a straight response. Hasn't happened yet though...

:mrgreen:


Mea Culpa. And I'm impressed, the second part of the quoted post made no sense to me and I wrote the damned thing!
:lol:

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:44 pm

Has anyone heard from Diane lately?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:54 am

I've seen her around on Facebook and she shows up here from time to time.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:17 am

AndrewR wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Popular culture is not seen as culture by snobs, not saying you are one. We are all pop culture militants.


I'm still waiting for you to clarify your remarks and all I get is more word salad. It's like you're channeling Ginsberg, badly.



This is a bit scary, but I think I know what he's getting at. Popular Culture as an aspect of CULTURE is not taken seriously by society's culture guardians. Trends, fads, gimmicks, what have you are all seen as noise by culture snobs who require the test of time before gracing something with the appellation "culture." Back in the early Sixties, "pop" was aggressively defended by the "youth movement" as equally if not more culturally relevant against those who thought all this long hair and loud music and wild color was naught but a momentary outbreak of insanity.

Ergo, Frank asserts we must defend popular culture---because, as he says, it is culture, just like Beethoven or Rubins or Ibsen are "culture"---against those who would make it insignificant.

Don't know how I'm decoding this...

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:14 am

Chuck Messer wrote:I've seen her around on Facebook and she shows up here from time to time.

Chuck


Thanks. Just checking. It's been a while since she posted here and she did say something about medical issues. Hey Diane! Let us know how you're doing.



This is a bit scary, but I think I know what he's getting at.

Mark my perception is that popular culture is now the only thing that is taken seriously. If you question the idea that comic books are the summa of artistic accomplishment and point out that Spiderman is not a great character in world literature the "Snob" label gets whipped out pretty quick. I am not a snob but I am an elitist. The distinction I make is that a snob is someone who believes that one person is metaphysically better than another person. An elitist is someone who believes one person is better than another because of their accomplishments. I am always prepared to defer to my superior in attainment. Of course it follows that in order to be superior you have to have an attainment.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:23 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:
Chuck Messer wrote:I've seen her around on Facebook and she shows up here from time to time.

Chuck


Thanks. Just checking. It's been a while since she posted here and she did say something about medical issues. Hey Diane! Let us know how you're doing.



This is a bit scary, but I think I know what he's getting at.

Mark my perception is that popular culture is now the only thing that is taken seriously. If you question the idea that comic books are the summa of artistic accomplishment and point out that Spiderman is not a great character in world literature the "Snob" label gets whipped out pretty quick. I am not a snob but I am an elitist. The distinction I make is that a snob is someone who believes that one person is metaphysically better than another person. An elitist is someone who believes one person is better than another because of their accomplishments. I am always prepared to defer to my superior in attainment. Of course it follows that in order to be superior you have to have an attainment.


Yeah, I see that. (And I do agree with your distinction, one of the reasons I bristle at Frank's use of the term Elites when talking about people who are just isolates with means.) I didn't say he had a case, I just meant I see what he's getting at. Here's the problem---"popular" culture is a meaningless label for the stuff we're all expected (by ourselves, mainly) to know about that happens to be current. Back when Simon and Garfunkel were eloquently extolling the virtues of pop artists, what they were defending did not fit that category, but was a tsunami in the making. They sensed, perhaps, that one day it would be the ocean, but it wasn't then. I also think they were mingling in "populist" with the pop label, which is another thing entirely.

To me, genuinely meaningful "culture" is that which needs none of that expository defense because it is by its own merit valid among those who internalize it.

A mouthful, perhaps, but it goes to "good taste" and "sophistication" inasmuch as these things tend to become indistinct when you try to analyze and describe them. Just because you might own a Monet (for example) doesn't mean you're cultured. You're culture if you sense why the Monet is better than _____ (choose your own example of a shallow, quickly exhausted painted surface). That's not something you can push on people. They acquire it, they learn it, it evolves, and for that reason remains continually outside "popular culture." It may well be that all those comics represent serious culture, but we won't know for another century, when another generation passes judgement. Is it good art?

That's a different question entirely. ;)

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:11 pm

Monet is better than Jeff Koons, a true hack.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:11 pm

Lori, you ok with the flooding?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:03 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Monet is better than Jeff Koons, a true hack.


Okay, this is gettin' scary. I agree with that statement completely.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:55 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Lori, you ok with the flooding?



It stopped raining around one this afternoon, and isn't supposed start again till Wednesday, so we have a bit of time to dey out. Well be fine.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:04 pm

So, what do you call a person who sees the artistic value in comics, Jeff Koons and Monet?

Art IMO isn't a good gauge of culture. Some of the highest of brows liked Wharhol,and some of the lowest Do Vinci. It boils down to personal preference. Case in point The Sandman graphic novels. The person who drew them was an artist. But, because he essentially drew comics, people tend to ignore that.


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