THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:24 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Surprisingly, Chris Matthews did the best Hoffman tribute, by playing key scenes from certain films.

Barbara Walters is defending Woody.


Two tnings Frank

1. Only two people know what actually know what happened that day and you and I aren't either of them.

2. Did you read the Open Letter? I haven't, and am smart enough not to comment about it except to say this. What purpose does it serve to bring this to public attention so many years after the fact?

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Rick Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Rick Keeney » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:36 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:What purpose does it serve to bring this to public attention so many years after the fact?


The Catholic Church, as only one example, has had this questioned answered many times.

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Robert Nason
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:59 pm

Rick Keeney wrote:The Catholic Church, as only one example, has had this questioned answered many times.

Rick -- Your implication is that there is an analogy betweeen victims of pedophile priests coming forward after twenty years of silence and Dylan Farrow speaking out now in her Open Letter to the Times. There is not. Dylan spoke out at the time the alleged abuse occurred; the court assigned a psychiatric team to investigate her claims, and after an intensive six-month invesitation (conducted by the Yale-New Haven psychiatric unit specializing in child molestation, the best in the country at that time), the conclusion was that there was no credible basis for the accusations against Woody Allen and that Dylan had probably been coached by her mother. Following that, the state decided not to initiate criminal proceedings against Allen. Dylan is certainly entitled to her feelings, which seem entirely sincere; but as a legal matter the case was thoroughly examined and dismissed twenty years ago. This is not the case of a child who was molested by priests and kept silent for decades or who spoke up at the time and was ignored.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:45 am

Nason, didn't know that. We should also not forget the McMartin pre-school debacle. A whole family got demonized, even when they were seen as the demons. Psychiatry is truly the real dismal science.

Lori, I know you like psychiatry, no diss towards you.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:45 am

Ezra, what did you think of Ham giving examples of all those believing scientists?

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Rick Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Rick Keeney » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:09 am

Robert Nason wrote:Rick -- Your implication is that there is an analogy betweeen victims of pedophile priests coming forward after twenty years of silence and Dylan Farrow speaking out now in her Open Letter to the Times... This is not the case of a child who was molested by priests and kept silent for decades or who spoke up at the time and was ignored.


Robert,

Forget implication. I was trying to say in my own oblique way that it's never too late to come forward. Priests, adoptive father, aunt Bethilda, makes no difference.

While I won't take it for granted that all you say is true, I trust you're representing yourself well. I'd heard nothing of the (Yale-New Haven) investigation you describe here. That would change things. Although I am sure there is also precedent for even the best psych teams falling on their faces. I'd love to read that eval.

Nevertheless, it would seem my opinion was at least partly uninformed.

I sit here abashed.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:52 am

I don't know enough about the Woody Allen situation to have an opinion. But I have watched a couple tear each other apart during a divorce using their child as an intermediary. Not much can be more cruel than that. Let the guilty be punished. Let the innocent go free. Unfortunately that ain't the way it always works, is it?

FrankChurch wrote:Ezra, what did you think of Ham giving examples of all those believing scientists?


Well it's not nearly as impressive as it sounds. Science is a process and a methodology. If you follow the protocols and the process you're doing science whatever your personal beliefs. You stop doing science when you let your personal beliefs affect the process and the protocols. I can't judge these folks really because like Ham kept saying, I wasn't there when they got their degrees. Bill Nye pointed out that Frances Collins, current director of the NIH and former head of the Human Genome Project, and whose credentials as a scientist have never been questioned, even by atheists, is a deeply religious man. Collins accepts their religion but denies their science. He's the one Ham should really be debating.

But as an interested layman who has enjoyed astronomy all his life and tries to keep up with what's going on in the field, for the life of me I cannot understand how an astronomer could possibly be a young earth creationist. Every piece of data testifies to an astoundingly old universe. Our instruments have gotten so good that we can measure it's age to a reasonable approximation, 13.7 billion years old. The earth is about 4.5 billion. Life seems to have first occurred around a billion years after that. (All dates subject to further revision as the data indicates.) If that doesn't send a chill up your spine at some point you haven't really let it sink in.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:33 pm

creationism is different: it follows the bible, using science you like as a bulwark, avoiding science that gets in the way.


Avoiding science that gets in the way of one's beliefs... Haven't we had enough of that in the last several thousand years?

We used to believe the earth was the center of the cosmos. Galileo's belief otherwise got him branded a heretic and placed under house arrest. But it's okay - Catholics were just ignoring that bit of science that clashed with their beliefs. Copernicus? Attacked by the church for the same reason. Remember Martin Luther's dismissal of Copernicus's notion of an earth that revolved around the sun: "I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and not the earth." Uh huh.

Earth's flat - until it's not.
The blood of non-causcasians is inferior - until it's not.
People with seizures are possessed by the devil - until they're not.
The Great Flood must have killed all the dinosaurs - except it didn't.
Left-handedness was seen to reflect unfavorably with regards to one's standing with God (Matthew 25: 32–33), and thus needed to be "corrected" when seen in children.
Being red-headed was a sign of moral degeneration in the medieval world.

And on and on.

But sure - let's embrace the science that doesn't contradict our belief system, and discard the rest. Ask the 172 children who died from 1975 to 1995 because medical care was withheld by their parents on religious grounds how that worked for them. (number cited in "Letting Children Die for the Faith", Rita Swan, Free Inquiry , Volume 19, Number 1)

Because bacterial pneumonia is best treated by thinking of it as a devil that needs to be exorcised.

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Rick Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Rick Keeney » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:49 pm

Lets us all go live with them Squidbillies.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:00 pm

I went to a Lutheran grade school. (Don't ask, it was complicated, my dad never let me just swallow the propaganda.) My 6th grade teacher also came to our house to give me music lessons. He and my dad got into a thing once about the ages of the stars. Dad had been reading a book by Robert Jaworski at the time and thought some of it was really cool. My teacher, Mr. Lange, poo-poohed it. "The universe is only 6000 years old," he said.

"Then how do you explain all those distances?" my dad asked. "There's galaxies out there millions of light years away. That means it took the light millions of years to get here so we can see it."

"God arranged it that way. He set it up so the light was already here."

Dad (incredulously): "Why would he do that?"

"For us."

Dad chewed on that for a few moments, then said. "Boy, you don't think much of yourself, do ya?"

I have never forgotten that exchange. For me, it sums up everything there is to know about Young Earth Creationists.

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Robert Nason
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:29 pm

The Buddhists believe this is all an illusion (maya), that nothing really exists. How the hell do you argue with that?
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:50 pm

So, Israel doesn't exist? :lol:

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:06 pm

FrankChurch wrote:So, Israel doesn't exist? :lol:


And by extension, neither does all the crap you obsess over Frsnk... :roll:

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:32 pm

Merrily. merrily, merrily, merrily
Chomsky's but a dream...

Tim Raven
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tim Raven » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:00 pm

If I had to pick one, I'd go with that "Maya" thing. Much more interesting than an old white man with a beard that lives in the sky.


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