THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:17 pm

AndrewR wrote:Lori,

I understand why one would argue against Holmes having some form of mental illness. I get it. I really do...

That said, I don't really think that the Stanford Prison Experiment is germane to this discussion. We're talking about a guy who walked into a movie theater and opened fire (randomly as far as anyone can tell at this point) not two groups of people with specific roles to play (as was the case at Stanford). Yes, it is possible that sane people can do horrible things under certain circumstances. The unanswered question is "were they sane when they did it?" not whether or not they were sane before or after.

I firmly believe that mass shootings like Colorado are perpetrated by less than 100% stable individuals. Does this mean that all folks that suffer from mental illness are going to go out and do the same thing? Hardly. Should we be more observant about those around us (in hopes that they may get whatever assistance it is that they need)? You betcha.

Honestly I hate to see something like this happen. You're right, it does continue a trend toward stigmatizing mental illness in all of its various forms and that sucks.



Andrew

One of the things that the Stanford Prison Expirement shows is that totally normal, and mentally healthy people are able to do unspeakable evil things when the right forces act on them.

We don't know if Mr. Holmes has a mental illness. What we do know is that for unknown reasons he was getting ready to quit school, and that he had access to weapons that maybe he shouldn't have. No one but him knows what the trigger was that caused him to do what he did.

What got me going on this is that post on the pavilion that talked about things like paranoid schizophrenia and what have you. Those are things that usually are bantyed about when these things happen, and who knows what's going on in dude's mind.

I just wish people would let the experts decide what's going on here.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:16 pm

Lori:
I just wish people would let the experts decide what's going on here.


Just because people may be attributing mental illness to the guy's situation doesn't mean they aren't waiting to hear from the experts.

It isn't simply an evil act that people judge - as human nature has demonstrated unspeakable insanity collectively over-and-over by nominally "sane" people (to your own point) throughout time - but the behavior attached to the act. Holmes WAS dressed for the Dark Knight movie event: "The suspect was dressed all in black, wearing a ballistic helmet, tactical ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector, groin protector, gas mask and black tactical gloves. Some reports state that Holmes claimed the be “The Joker”."

Now when someone plans a killing with such drollery - NOT apparent rage or retribution (as was evident in the Columbine shootings), but with a resonance of personal amusement, it's easy to speculate some brain disorder. I DO agree with you, however, that the notions about insanity are all too rigid.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:50 pm

The Al Qaida guys were not mentally ill, but they had no problem killing thousands of people, even themselves. One of the Columbine killers did suffer from depression, but they did it because they were heartless assholes. America breeds em like bugs.

Mentally ill people tend to hurt themselves more than society. What we should focus on is our violent cultural fetish mixed with our insane gun fetish. Guns are a tool, but a symbol of ultimate freedom? Nah.

reddragon70
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby reddragon70 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:04 pm

I got my first rejection on the story. Not too bothered as I didn't expect to have it published anyway.

I will just have to try looking about and see if anyone is interested in it.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:49 pm

reddragon70 wrote:I got my first rejection on the story. Not too bothered as I didn't expect to have it published anyway.

I will just have to try looking about and see if anyone is interested in it.


Go see if your library has a current copy of Writer's Marketplace. That should give ya a lot of places to send it.

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:30 am

I will just have to try looking about and see if anyone is interested in it.


First rule of thumb: what doesn't appeal to one editor - or twenty editors - may appeal to another. They're all molding/shaping a 'feel' for their publication/site/anthology. Rejection, unless it includes a note saying, "man, you suck out loud" really is just a business decision, and not a valuation of your ability or the story. It never FEELS that way. But it is.

I keep sending out my PEANUTS homage. It's fifteen years old now. It's been periodically tuned. It's made at least one true fan who read it tear up; another enjoyed it so much, they asked permission to do a public reading. Meanwhile, eight editors have said 'pass' to it to date. It may wind up as collection filler some day. All I can do is keep swinging.

And all I can do is encourage you to keep swinging!

And to Lori's comment, I would add: Duotrope's - https://duotrope.com/ - good resource for current info on a number of markets, searchable by genre/format/etc, helps identify who's open for subs and when, etc.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:09 am

Wait just a dang minute! Are you telling me that after I spend two whole weeks writing this book that there's a chance it might not get published? I was led to believe that what I should do was get several publishers in a bidding war and I would eventually settle for an advance in the low six figures (nonrefundable of course). It is my first book after all. I have to admit I'm not sure how that all works. Mommy said I was a genius though and I must take Mommy's word for it.

My book has everything. Zombies, Vampires, Mayans, a little S&M, combined with a brilliant literary interrogation of life as we live it now leavened by angst and despair and the death of love. How could it miss?

I sent Stephen King a letter asking for help getting an agent but I haven't heard back from him yet. Maybe I should have contacted Joyce Carol Oates first?

Any tips anyone has would be very much appreciated. I do have one question. On the book tour, am I responsible for the limo to the events or does the publisher take care of that?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:44 am

People will see that Bush's dog can have a best seller and they think it must be easy. This goes back to my point about writers not doing it for the money, since there are many easier ways to make money. Like bank robbery, selling fake diplomas, sex-toy sales.

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:19 pm

Wait just a dang minute! Are you telling me that after I spend two whole weeks writing this book that there's a chance it might not get published?


I don't know - is it shitty, shabbily rewritten TWILIGHT fan-fiction? If so, then YOU must be doing something wrong, or have cooties, or have sold your soul to the wrong devil, because THAT'S what's on the bestseller lists this epoch.

If Hemingway could see this, he'd be using the shotgun very, very differently.

reddragon70
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby reddragon70 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:41 pm

Well I spent, on and off, about three days writing my little story. There was breaks where I thought about how it would go, although I had the broad story line in my head. But three days.

I dont know if it has any value. The idea maybe does, but my execution perhaps doesnt. I have had a lot of very good and positive feedback. Maybe i need to expand it more, increase the drama, the characters and the interplay between them. I just dont know. No matter what I am proud of it. I wrote something, and It is my baby.

Unca Harlan would no doubt tell me I have no talent whatsoever. But that was not the point for me. It was getting an idea I have had onto paper. In that, I have at least succeeded.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:36 pm

Then again, Iain, you never know. The act of creating something is a powerful thing, though, is it not? Perhaps even healing.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:25 am

In all seriousness I do a bunch of technical writing on my job, reports, translating computer programmer technicalese into readable english etc, and I work very hard at it and take pride in doing it well. It really chaps my ass to make mistakes in grammar or spelling. I'm not a fictioneer however. I really feel for you folks who have the courage to spill your guts all over the page only to get it treated like a laundry list or a day old newspaper.

FinderDoug I too find the titles on the bestseller list somewhat mysterious. But then I find the idea that I'm supposed to want to read a book simply because lots of the other people are reading it somewhat mysterious too.

I made it about two chapters into the first of those LEFT BEHIND books and just couldn't continue. How can writing that bad get a publisher? The current SHADES OF GREY soft-core S&M porno stuff is simply funny. But it sells. And sells.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:28 pm

Makes the case for Harry Potter getting laid.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:47 pm

A certain person said some really boneheaded things about Nixon. But I will leave it there. He cannot be helped.

------------

Lori, I meant our fundamentalists are like their fundamentalists. We are a land running wild with religious nutballs.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:59 pm

I got some Chomsky facts for you Frank. His books were funded by grants from the US army, the DOD grants pay part of Noam's salary at MIT, when asked if he would quit there because of the "evil: pentagon funding, he didnt and he lives in a rich and exclusive suburb. Can you say hypocrisy anyone?


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