THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Tim Raven
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tim Raven » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:19 am

Someday, some good ‘ole boy like me will become President and this gun control mess will be fixed once and for all.

I like to shoot. Rifles, handguns and shotguns. Most people from the South like it too. It’s a cultural thing.

Point # 1 – NRA types will continue to block any gun control as long as they feel that they have to register all of their firearms with THE GOVERNMENT. When the inevitable TROUBLES happen and the hammer comes down, the feds will target them and their families for incarceration or elimination. Paranoid, yes, but not so farfetched. The war between the states (Civil War to you Yankees) and 1776 come to mind. How do we maintain privacy?

Point # 2 – It’s too easy to get a firearm and cartridges. True collectors and sportsmen would be willing to wait, because invariably they are law abiding citizens. Background checks focusing on mental health, past felonies and suspicious buying behavior should be scrutinized. And If you have to buy a firearm RIGHT NOW, then you shouldn’t be able to! For obvious fucking reasons.

Point # 3 – bullshit quality firearms. From China. After firing seven times, they blow up in your face. Ban their import to the U.S. Their only function is to kill human beings. No real gun aficionado would support such shit.

Point # 4 – It’s a MAGAZINE, not a clip! Clips were used to help load Cold War style M1 rifles. Modern automatic and semi-automatics use MAGAZINES!!! Fucking MAGAZINES!...Not CLIPS!!!

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:16 am

As usual, the Onion has put it best:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sadly- ... ngs,28857/
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:25 am

Rob, point of order: Canada allows guns, but they are highly regulated.

Bowling For Columbine, his most entertaining. Sicko, his best.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:13 pm

The shooter was a college student. It isn't about dumb or smart. We are not lemmings by choice.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:34 pm

FrankChurch wrote:The shooter was a college student. It isn't about dumb or smart. We are not lemmings by choice.
(Color addition mine)

Frank

I don't know what world you live in, but I struggle daily not to be a lemming. I know that I and I alone choose to believe or not believe. I am the only one who dictates what I will and will not do or accept in this life. No one decides who I allow into the inner circle, nor does anyone get to force their way into the outer one. Sure there are people whose opinions I seek out, and those do have some weight in my decisions. But, they aren't the ones who make the decision.

Lori

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:04 pm

Lori, you are not a lemming, but you do follow some received wisdom, which many Americans do, so you are not alone. But, no, you are not a lemming.

--------------

We need to really be careful how we deal with this shooting. The media will play up the irrational fear to the point where parents will not let their kids go to the movies--especially this week. Movie theatre shootings are so rare this is mere irrationality on parade, trumped up by our sick media.

They will do what they did with Columbine, let you think that killer kids will be around every corner, when it was only about two wack jobs, who just happened to be high school students.

Fear is for dolts. Go to the movies, have fun, you will be safe.

----------------

A great documentary just put out by Freespeechtv about our culture of fear. Don't buy the hype about pandemics, terrorism, crime, child predators, robberies, crazed black men:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpWGA0tpdY8

Dr. John Mueller is one of the experts. This dude is my new hero. Ohio State as well. Cool.

All the fucking money and lives we wasted on false fronts like drugs and terrorism. Sad.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:24 pm

Lori, to continue this train:

I and millions of others, some who post here regularly, have sever mental illness and have never once committed a crime. But it seems to be the first mention of everyone who cannot accept that there are people who do extreme evil when limits are met or exceeded.


It depends, of course, on the definition of "mental illness". Same as "physical illness".

A Physical Illness can run the gamut from the common cold right through to end-stage cancer.

A Mental Illness can run the same gamut. From acrophobia, which I suffer from, right through to "fuck 'em, I'm offing the lot of them at a showing of Batman".

Gamut.

We've all had homicidal thoughts. That's not illegal or even immoral.

But acting out? If we do not label that as an aberration, an illness, it means the rest of us are capable of the same. And that is something that I, like you, sincerely objects to as a conclusion.

I'm irrationally terrified of heights. A mental illness. But I'm hardly in the league of the Colorado gunman, who was, by my estimation, fucking insane.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:47 pm

Steve Evil re: horror entertainment derived "paranoia"

Yeah, I don't buy into that myself. Again, I credit Moore's essay in Bowling For Columbine, as he cites Canada's at-least-as-equally rampant gory violence in movies and tv (likewise throughout Europe, in fact); the U.S. holds the highest proportion in gun killings. The big difference, as I pointed out, is the way our news and advertising media exploits and always has - pushed by the profit motive - our fears. With, I should add, a MASSIVE emphasis on fearing your neighbors, fearing people of color, fearing anything connected to "government", et al. This country is FAR more entrenched in these symptoms than the other countries of the western hemisphere.

And ALL of these symptoms tied into the exploitation of the arms industry.

The stats have next-to-nothing to do with the entertainment industry. But NRA advocates are ready, quite conveniently, to argue otherwise LONG before they will indulge any words about regulating high-powered arms.

What disgusts me about the NRA is that NOTHING is too much for them! No matter what the facts are, they oppose EVERY sensible law to meet these problems. Mention a single regulation and they scream "INFIDEL!"

It's totally sick and twisted. The fact that so many civilians remain complacent about the insanity adds so much to the hopeless obstacles we face.

Watch: this incident will basically change nothing.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:35 am

Well I wasn't suggesting Rob that the entertainment industry was to blame, but I have noticed a certain paranoid strain running through them that fits in with the culture of fear, no less than the choice of news items. " The world is full of scary people who will do terrible things to you. Watch out!" It probably doesn't help!

If Canada is to be used as a basis of comparison, it must be remembered that the country was founded by Americans who stayed loyal to the British crown after the Revolution. In other words, by people who liked the government. So the idea that the state was out to get you never really took hold, and this allergy to regulation never really developed. Hence: healthcare and gun control. The gun control laws aren't terribly intrusive: anyone who wants one can have one. They just have to fill out the paper work. And very few people feel the need to carry a concealed handgun or an assault rifle.

But, just the other day there was another shooting in North Toronto not too far from where I went to Uni, so maybe that's changing.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:31 pm

Barber wrote:Lori, to continue this train:

I and millions of others, some who post here regularly, have sever mental illness and have never once committed a crime. But it seems to be the first mention of everyone who cannot accept that there are people who do extreme evil when limits are met or exceeded.


It depends, of course, on the definition of "mental illness". Same as "physical illness".

A Physical Illness can run the gamut from the common cold right through to end-stage cancer.

A Mental Illness can run the same gamut. From acrophobia, which I suffer from, right through to "fuck 'em, I'm offing the lot of them at a showing of Batman".

Gamut.

We've all had homicidal thoughts. That's not illegal or even immoral.

But acting out? If we do not label that as an aberration, an illness, it means the rest of us are capable of the same. And that is something that I, like you, sincerely objects to as a conclusion.

I'm irrationally terrified of heights. A mental illness. But I'm hardly in the league of the Colorado gunman, who was, by my estimation, fucking insane.



Steve

I guess I'm looking at it this way. Philip Zimbardo, while a researcher at Stanford University, did a study to find out how prison affects both the prisoners and the guards. Long story short, he ended the expirements and study 5 days into it because he found that the guards were getting abusive, and that some of the prisoners were getting affected in ways that weren't healthy.

One of the things he did is make sure that none of the participants had any kind of mental illness as best he could with the tests of the day.

http://www.prisonexp.org

I've shared this before, but I believe it fits this situation well. We do not know what outside and inside forces were working on this person nor do we know anything about him other than his name, age and the fact that he was getting ready to drop out of medical school.

I just get afraid that things like this, and people jumping quickly on the "he's a nut case" will keep those who need help to avoid becoming one of his ilk will be scared once again into going back into the closet, so to speak.

Is what he did evil, HELL FUCKING YES. Is how he behaved abnormal? Of course it was. But, we don't have enough information or skills to take what little we know and make a diagnosis. I know people want lables, and ways to make sure that the people around them aren't going to do something like this, but come on... Dude has all ready fucked himself up beyond any measure, do we really need to be adding to it?

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:42 pm

Steve Evil,

Well, definitely. The genesis of every society buds from its roots: our own country began opposing "government" from the outset, as demonstrated dramatically by the moonshiners who violently opposed Mr. G. Washington who levied taxes on alcohol to help pay the war debt; and the more obviously nocuous example when the south benefitted from its massive economic boom provided by "free services" in its slave market; both scenarios necessitated government measures, and were broadly opposed by signifcant factions (composed of both the wealthiest tycoons and pioneers who coveted a lifestyle all their own. Between the factionalism and pure capitalism spreading their tentacles, shaping decades of political policy, fears were invariably exploited for the propriety of those who'd profit most (racism being one of the manifestations of such mindsets: why wasn't there empathy and compassion for a people dehumanized for hundreds of years? Because, after slavery abolition, a black man was to be feared and suspect anywhere he was seen, where, in truth, he was skapegoated economically).

Today, few in media bring this mold to the attention of viewers around the country. Thus, we see the symptomatic reinforcements on local news and, often, in advertising.

It's blind religiosity, and, so, I don't think anything will be done about the gun issue for a long time.

Anyway, Steve, the only reason I posted a "retort" is because the movies you're talking about are seen all over the world - particularly in Canada. There is no statistical impact in those countries deriving from this fact. So, yes, perhaps the aforementioned cultural influences may have their stamp in American movies, it's, I think, a less important feature in the debate. I didn't mean to give my reply a condescending slant. I know you're aware of all this.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:26 pm

Lori,

On another discussion board, one of the members, who is a criminal psychologist said pretty much the same thing you said. So, you've got corroboration from an expert in the field. The vast majority of those with mental illnesses are no threat to anyone.

Chuck
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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:23 pm

Chuck Messer wrote:Lori,

On another discussion board, one of the members, who is a criminal psychologist said pretty much the same thing you said. So, you've got corroboration from an expert in the field. The vast majority of those with mental illnesses are no threat to anyone.

Chuck


I just worry about those who are afraid of the stigma that still haunts the mentally ill. In all likelihood, dude has something wrong with him in that area.

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AndrewR
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby AndrewR » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:08 pm

Lori,

I understand why one would argue against Holmes having some form of mental illness. I get it. I really do...

That said, I don't really think that the Stanford Prison Experiment is germane to this discussion. We're talking about a guy who walked into a movie theater and opened fire (randomly as far as anyone can tell at this point) not two groups of people with specific roles to play (as was the case at Stanford). Yes, it is possible that sane people can do horrible things under certain circumstances. The unanswered question is "were they sane when they did it?" not whether or not they were sane before or after.

I firmly believe that mass shootings like Colorado are perpetrated by less than 100% stable individuals. Does this mean that all folks that suffer from mental illness are going to go out and do the same thing? Hardly. Should we be more observant about those around us (in hopes that they may get whatever assistance it is that they need)? You betcha.

Honestly I hate to see something like this happen. You're right, it does continue a trend toward stigmatizing mental illness in all of its various forms and that sucks.
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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:55 pm

I don't care to dive into this thread, but what if we take on a little research of the historical stats among these types of rampage killings to see how often the subject was, indeed, diagnosed with a mental illness? I suspect most of if not all the data would affirm that they were. We can banter about all day in our own uninformed notions and biases, but it helps to examine some facts to be more fair to the topic.

I tend to feel this argument is upside down. There are literally countless kinds of mental illness. I'm not so sure those diagnosed with a specific type - if it isn't schizophrenia, or even bi-polar - that we all get stigmatized as potentially dangerous zoo specimens.


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