THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat May 19, 2012 7:42 am

FrankChurch wrote:Notice Norway doesn't do austerity.


Yeah but there's a reason for that. You are aware of what drives their economy are you not? Petroleum and natural gas, chemicals, timber, mining, fishing. They are rich in exploitable natural resources. Several of the northern european countries benefit this way. And they're NOT in the EU.

Oil wealth, Frank. Isn't that bad thing? :wink:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat May 19, 2012 8:18 am

Life is about dealing with reality. Not how things should be, but how they are. Most people, myself included, don't want the sweeping change Frank advocates. Most dont want to live in a socialist regime. Myself included. Isn't it better to try to effect Justice and Fairness within the system as it exists, as Dr. King did, rather than wish for a thing and a society that will never happen in the next several generations. You knock President Obama, Frank,. and tout that woman what's her name who has no chance of winning. This will open the door to a Romney victory, and as soon as he is in, he will hand himself and the country over to the tea party. Any human who possesses a modicum of sanity would vote for Obama. Ebert tweeted this morning about Georgia Baptist College making teacher sign a pledge against homosexuality. In this day and age. Get with a real program Frank. Only a mook would keep insisting on having the moon for a plaything.

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sat May 19, 2012 9:46 am

http://marktiedemann.com/wordpress/?p=1185

Some observations worth noting. Maybe.

Diane, I think no one wants to live in a Regime of any kind. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with socialism as long as it is treated as a tool, not a way of life. Same with capitalism. The problems arise when people decide such things matter as if they were religions, as markers of identity. Until Reagan started trashing things, we lived in a hybrid socialist/capitalist system and, despite what some people said, it worked pretty well for the largest number of people. "Regime" implies that national identity is more important than doing what is useful and beneficial. That's how we end up thinking change is unpatriotic.

User avatar
robochrist
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:30 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat May 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Regimes By Any Color

ANY type of regime - including a corporate CAPITALIST regime! - is bad news for the majority.

I hate it when "socialism" is naively invoked to imply centralized or economic oppression. There are many forms of socialism just as there are many forms of capitalism. Democratic socialism is contrasted with political movements that resort to authoritarian means to achieve a transition to socialism, instead advocating for the immediate creation of decentralized economic democracy from the grassroots level, undertaken by and for the working class It is a mode that offers the most opportunity to the greatest numbers, and the checks and balances crucial to a stable infrastructure.

Conversely, crony capitalism - as we now see radiating through our own system, extending its tendrils globally - destroys the balances and disenfranchises the majority as egregiously as a tyranny by any definition; it is the conduit to fascism (as opposed to socialism).

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat May 19, 2012 2:18 pm

I agree with you guys in large. I think the "best" system is the one that allows an individual to pursue his/her ideals, beliefs, dreams, yet has social safety nets in place, like health insurance, rejob training, educational grants, public assistance and help for the homeless. Plus curbs on the ultra rich and mega corps. But I don't think that is what Frank is advocating when he uses the term socialism or his friend down Venzuela way.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat May 19, 2012 5:29 pm

cool, i think i understood a good chunk of that...
not to dumb it down...
robochrist wrote:Regimes By Any Color

ANY type of regime - including a corporate CAPITALIST regime! - is bad news for the majority.

I hate it when "socialism" is naively invoked to imply centralized or economic oppression. There are many forms of socialism just as there are many forms of capitalism.--- Democratic socialism is contrasted with political movements that resort to authoritarian means to achieve a transition to socialism, instead advocating for the immediate creation of decentralized economic democracy from the grassroots level, undertaken by and for the working class--- It is a mode that offers the most opportunity to the greatest numbers, and the checks and balances crucial to a stable infrastructure.

Conversely, crony capitalism - as we now see radiating through our own system, extending its tendrils globally - destroys the balances and disenfranchises the majority as egregiously as a tyranny by any definition; it is the conduit to fascism (as opposed to socialism).
but something was missing...
" Democratic socialism is contrasted with political movements that resort to authoritarian means to achieve a transition to socialism, instead advocating for the immediate creation of decentralized economic democracy from the grassroots level, undertaken by and for the working class "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
there; you're welcome.
follow your bliss,mike

User avatar
robochrist
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:30 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat May 19, 2012 6:36 pm

Diane,

Speaking for myself (bit the technical definition from Wiki, nothing missing, thank you very much!), I figured that was your position. Best to qualify round these parts than to invoke general labels. No point, of course, in expecting Frank to support his comment with specifics, nope, nope, nope.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat May 19, 2012 7:30 pm

robochrist wrote:Speaking for myself (bit the technical definition from Wiki, nothing missing, thank you very much!), ... Best to qualify round these parts than to invoke general labels. No point, of course, in expecting Frank to support his comment with specifics, nope, nope, nope.

cool;
what is the proposed means for democratic socialists to achieve; " the immediate creation of decentralized economic democracy from the grassroots level"
the wiki article didn't specify...
follow your bliss,mike

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat May 19, 2012 8:09 pm

Mike, thank you for the Wiki. And I have no clue how to achieve that. I think we came close under Roosevelt (Franklin), and I used to think Clinton had the ideal, before I realized how much he handed big banks and Wall Street. The think is, we are too big now. Too big to be the democratic republic we were born; the conflict is no longer between farmer and shopkeeper, between town and country, it is between ultra rich, and the eroding middle class, who are too entranced by their quest to be the ultra rich to realize how much Reagan Bush Bush and yes Clinton (perhaps unintentionally in his case) stole from them. That is why I tell Frank his vision will not work; it is built on a construct that no longer holds true. The Greek city states, where representative democracy worked maybe for a time are millenia in the past. Nothing like that or the American Republic when it was founded exists today. Curiously enuff, though I am sure our founding papas never envisioned our society of today, that laid a Framework in our Constitution that would keep democracy and justice for one and all alive. But only if we the people stay aware, stay vigilant and stay educated, a responsibility the majority of us, myself for the most part have abdicated worse than did the Duke of Windsor his throne. And I dont have a solution. Except not to hand the country to the tea party. Cause they scare me. DB

User avatar
robochrist
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:30 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat May 19, 2012 8:26 pm

Democratic Socialism has worked in Europe for a long time. Best examples to date, the Netherlands and Germany. The former, in particular, has nurtured a mutual setting for capital and labor, at the same time protecting those at lesser advantage medically or financially. People do not lose their homes as easily as they do here, either! You want to examine a model of democratic socialism? Explore the Netherlands.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat May 19, 2012 8:34 pm

those are social democrats rob;
that is not the question i asked..

start in the context of the article you used
follow your bliss,mike

User avatar
robochrist
Posts: 3426
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:30 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat May 19, 2012 9:41 pm

Mike, I wasn't trying to answer YOUR question. I'm just saying what's on MY mind. Answer your OWN question!

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat May 19, 2012 9:53 pm

robochrist wrote:Mike, I wasn't trying to answer YOUR question. I'm just saying what's on MY mind.

cool;
i'm just trying to make sense of it..
thanks for... uuhhh...not trying? :D
follow your bliss,mike

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun May 20, 2012 12:37 am

COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR Should be in my favorite song lyrics.

Hey Gaiman won the Nebula. Been following him and Amanda's posts on Twitter. Now I have As Time Goes By running through my head. Not that that's bad. Its good. One of my favorite songs.

(PS. I have a secret. Don't tell. For Amanda Fucking Palmer, I could go bi. Easily.)

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sun May 20, 2012 1:20 am

diane bartels wrote:COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR
that is one of the ways to attempt an approach to democratic socialism, more or less as likely to succeed as the other option...or by " on our way", do you mean to the nearest fema camp, hospital or morgue ?

naaa, i get it's a joke. :shock:
follow your bliss,mike


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests