THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Mon May 14, 2012 8:27 pm

Lori,



Per your comment here, I'm just thinking that Tim Raven's present may prove to catalyze a really good thing - DEPENDING on whether the rest of us have the breadth and wherewithal to capitalize - and that would be an effort to engage each other as I pleaded about in the Pav this a.m. (Half asleep, I should add!).

Far as I'm concerned, I have as MANY issues as Raven, but of a fundamentally different nature. I learned - probably not so long ago - just what you asserted: to know where you're losing and what you need to do to alter that. It falls under the struggle to survive; if you cannot change the environment to suit your needs, you need to change in order to adapt to that environment. Personal acknowledgment is flint for that process.



I actually have this issue with Harlan himself.



I’m not trying to be deprecating in the following comments, but I’ve long wanted to talk with Harlan on a personal level, as he has a helluva time trying to figure me out. I'm convinced he only offers compassion to those he can relate to, but will not give you the time of day if you're something he cannot figure out. THIS is the symptom I'm addressing. I've done the same to others plenty of times myself. And it ISN'T a good thing! We put up defensive blocks, sometimes to the suffering of others, with no cause or reason to reach out. Well...I don't like being a pack of dogs. This lapse in personal communication engulfs the globe and perpetuates tribalistic mentalities.



I hate it.



Harlan is proprietary in choosing those he calls his friends. Tim Raven, in this case.

Y’know, I remember an interview Harlan did with Tom Snyder in the 1990s. There, Harlan related an anecdote about 2 FBI agents showing up at his door one night to question him. It turned out a lady with a history of mental illness had reported some "peculiar" facts pertaining to Mr. Ellison, and the Bureau felt they should check it out.



Harlan seemed to be smirking glibly when the woman came up. Tom responded, "But we have to have some sympathy for that lady, too". In short, it took Tom Snyder to point out the matter of compassion to Harlan. I think there are simply some types Harlan cannot relate to. The question is if ever acknowledges this and makes an effort to talk with those who seem "weird" to him in order to understand them (whether it’s someone with adhd or in need to talk about his problems, not out of Harlan’s notion of “being weak”, but as a practical need to be understood).



He should be more conscious of this for a couple of reasons: one, because of his writing, making expectations of the man much greater; two, because he has a 45 year reputation of tearing into people - as on college campuses - rebuking them for their complacency and their ignorance. Mind you, he’s RIGHT! But, you need to put up or shut up; if you fail to live up to the standards you preach to others, you lose a helluva lot of credibility.



Regardless of how loyal you are to those you choose to call your friends, if everyone else is fair game – to scoff at or judge as too “strange” to bother with – then you discredit the nobility you homilize in your didactics.



All of us need to polish our act in that arena.



Harlan expressed regret anytime he hurt someone with his comments, some in his own profession. By contradiction, he has gone on the record in interviews declaring his efforts to choose his words carefully and scrutinize what he says. Then, lo and behold, he has to spend weeks expressing abject apologies for an error he made in the comment.


After many years of this, Harlan would make the same blunder over and over. I KNOW we’re all flawed; that’s part of being human. But, again, if you deliver platitudes you put yourself on a pedestal, placing greater weight on what people expect of you. Repeating the same mistake over and over is not a noble trait. MAKE the effort to reach out to those people, and you CAN change the pattern.



Like the rest of us, Tim Raven needs to learn this as well. As Lori points out, he hasn’t reached that point in life yet, as it’s a TOUGH undertaking. Hopefully, he’ll find that day.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue May 15, 2012 8:40 am

Yea, I was being unfair to Lori. Sorry Lori.

Lori, you hip to Norman Solomon?

---------------

I think Harlan has this stance because he has lost a lot of friends because of words. Look at how loopy Gary Groth got because of words.

Good thing I believe that all of us are sinners. We can always go back to the well and be cleansed.

-------------

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue May 15, 2012 9:06 am

Harlan himself got into trouble because of "woids" every now and then.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue May 15, 2012 5:05 pm

Julian Assange does a very good interview with two former prisoners of Guantanamo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_lQzu9J ... ature=plcp

He asks hard questions, about why they advocate jihad and other things. It would be nice to see stuff like this in our media.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue May 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Frank

I know of Norm Solomon's work, hate to say I'm not as familiar with it as I should be. Listen to him on KALW every once and a blue moon.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue May 15, 2012 5:53 pm

We've been unculcated with bullshit from childhood. I've got a copy of "Lies My Teacher Told Me", but if you want a list, then take this one from cracked.com:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6- ... erica.html

My favorite caption, showing an indian, some settlers and the ocean:

"And this is the sea. I'd recommend bathing in it, because you people smell like the inside of my asshole."

Our ancestors, alas, were filthy, disease-ridden savages. Hey, they emerged from the fall of the Roman Empire which was accompanied by a catastrophic change in the climate there. Crops failed so regularly people had to mix ground-up nut shells with flour to make bread. And it may have been Native American de-forestation that had a hand in it.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue May 15, 2012 6:38 pm

"Our ancestors, alas, were filthy, disease-ridden savages."

Dat'n gave me a good snicker! Yeah, I like dat.

Main difference now is we've a more piled veneer to hide the filth that remains skin deep.

We've all been inculcated since infancy - absolutely! - and we should be standing back to look at it more. That goes for the pressures of the culture that surrounds us, too.

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Duane
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Duane » Tue May 15, 2012 9:18 pm

**96% death rate** of the Native American population due to plague, and THAT'S why we came out on top.

Never saw that coming.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue May 15, 2012 9:29 pm

...the other 3% being pure mass genocide, remaining 1% reservation round-up.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed May 16, 2012 8:38 am

Chuck Messer wrote:We've been unculcated with bullshit from childhood. I've got a copy of "Lies My Teacher Told Me", but if you want a list, then take this one from cracked.com:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6- ... erica.html

My favorite caption, showing an indian, some settlers and the ocean:

"And this is the sea. I'd recommend bathing in it, because you people smell like the inside of my asshole."

Our ancestors, alas, were filthy, disease-ridden savages. Hey, they emerged from the fall of the Roman Empire which was accompanied by a catastrophic change in the climate there. Crops failed so regularly people had to mix ground-up nut shells with flour to make bread. And it may have been Native American de-forestation that had a hand in it.

Chuck



If you want to read a good (but disturbing) book about this subject see

http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations- ... 563&sr=1-1
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed May 16, 2012 10:24 am

I'm suspect of those numbers. I think genocide is the main cause of indian deaths, not disease.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed May 16, 2012 11:40 am

FrankChurch wrote:I'm suspect of those numbers. I think genocide is the main cause of indian deaths, not disease.



Frank

Think seriously about this. The white man could kill say a few thousand Indians a day. One bout of small pox could kill a hundred thousand a day. With that simple math, you figure out who did the most damage.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed May 16, 2012 12:25 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I'm suspect of those numbers. I think genocide is the main cause of indian deaths, not disease.



The forensics are pretty much in on this, as well as the archaeology. Travelers west in the 18th century encountered villages of Indians who had never seen a white man that had been devastated by small pox, measles, and other diseases that had come from one tribe to another long before settlement was even on the horizon. You should read the history of the fall of the Aztecs---it wasn't Cortez's guns did it, but smallpox. They were fighting even as they were collapsing in the streets.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Wed May 16, 2012 1:26 pm

Before we reduce the native Indian massacres to a post-war rating environment, "no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops - Uh, depending on the breaks" - all we need do is turn to GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL. Book OR PBS documentary, a superlative text!

No one familiar with the facts can deny that had it not been for disease, white Europeans would have been happy and willful to annihalate every last native on the continent (the only remaining being those percieved as "useful", as in finding gold).

But they were spared much of the task: The Incan and Mayan empires were EACH between 4 million and 37 million, the vast majority having been wiped out by diseases brought over by the Europeans.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Wed May 16, 2012 5:00 pm

Of course, if it hadn't been for smallpox, those large populations would have driven off a lot of the Conquistadors. There were many who thought it was the hand of God hisself that cleared the land of those savages, for which they were grateful.

These people were not sweethearts. They emerged from a time of disease, starvation and brutal fuedalism, breeding people with a brutal outlook.

However you look at it, we're talking about a human tragedy of vast proportions.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.


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