THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:04 pm

“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:22 pm

SOPA seemingly was supported by the democrats and hated by the right. Looks like Newt was against it while Romney is for it. Good lord, what a bi-partison fuck nog.

Lori, beyond you yelling at me, did you have fun last night?

Barber, pictures!

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:27 pm

Damn, Anonymous crashed the DOJ computer, the FBI, the RIAA, the MPAA! That'sa bad motherfucker.

Cyberwar is on.

Silicon Valley vs. Hollywood. Interesting, since they both support Dems.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:27 pm

Ezra, we are not a democracy. Wish we were.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:59 pm

Thom needs to school some Webderbuds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09CX-JQ0 ... ideo_title

Odd that Thom's book sales went up.

Tim Raven
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tim Raven » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:48 pm

I have been plagued by thieves in the past. Stolen motorcycles, etc. If someone stole my words, I would cut their head off. No police.

Tim Raven

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:25 pm

Nope, neither Thom nor Frank need to school Diane on Constitutional Law nor anything else. Diane got an A in Con. Law. Thom is deliberately misstating and misconstruing the clause re copyrights for his own purposes. In other words he is lying. If you would like the complete these on who wrote the Con., the language that was debated over and eventually chosen, and their intentions to the extent the intentions of men dead for 200 years can be known, pm me Frank, and I will send you that info. Your friend Thom is in serious error in what he says. The Framers totally intended to protect the rights of creators and inventors; they believed that a free market system where educated selfinterest was a prime driving force was the best protection for democracy and the economy. Yes they wanted to encourage Art and Science in the new Repulic they had founded, as they wanted to encourage a flourishing commerce. They believed almost to the man the a free market capitalist system was the very best way to promote this. The times for copyrights were shorter bc people's life spans were shorter, Ben Franklin being the exception. "Early to bed,... " and all that good. Ergo, your Thom is ignorant, lying or both for his own purposes. And the main guy of the Megaupload thing is a criminal who was in trouble for fraud and embezzlement bc of stock fraud years b4 he developed his money making endevour. None of this is up for debate. It is all fact, easily verifiable by anyone with a computer and the desire to do fair open-end research. End of story for me Frank.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:57 pm

I'm going to step into the discussion here for a sec in behalf of Thom Hartmann, as Frank is the last source anyone should rely on for information.

As one who has spoken to Hartmann several times this last year, I can tell you he does not "deliberately misconstrue" one damn thing! He has a vast mental database on history and corporate law; his info is reliable, and he is frank in his humility when he knows less about subject.

If you doubt this, and you are so confident in your own arguments, I encourage you to call and speak to Thom himself directly; he'll go over the whole thing with you, and he'll clarify or concur, guaranteed! Dial him! 866-987-8466, The Thom Hartmann Show.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:18 am

As I've mentioned on another thread...I will accept Hartmann's interpretation of the original intent of copyright when he freely streams his radio show without charge and walks away from his paycheck while still doing the show daily. And, if he has the courage of his convictions, I dare him to stream Stephanie Miller's show without permission.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:49 am

Like I said, call Harmann on his show. Take him up on it! That's the only way to make it a fair debate.

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John E Williams
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby John E Williams » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:06 am

Here is the soberest, smartest word I have read yet on SOPA/PIPA, written by a television writer.

http://calitics.com/diary/14115/confess ... piracy-act

The argument continues to be selfish greedy copyright owners vs. freedom loving free people who like stuff for free, but what I think these bills are really about is the giant corporate hand deciding it's time to take complete control of the Internet once and for all. What they're doing now is not just protecting their property, a goal which would be better served by better laws, but finding a way to control the flow of information and make us pay through the nose for every byte.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:21 am

John, I think you are right. Not in favor of the current bills either. Rob dear I have no desire to debate anything with Thom Hartman. It is enuf that I know I am right regarding the intent of the farmers. They intended both to protect private property interests and to promote art, science and the growth of business. What they intended to eliminate is privileged oligarchy. My friend Frank is correct when he says we have a dominant corp oligarchy in the country. The military industrial complex. And Reagan and the Shrubs gave them the store, to the extreme detriment of the poor and middle class. The solution however is not to eliminate private property. That has led only to bad things. The solution is two fold. A better educated public who gives a flying rat's ass about their country and what the pols do, and laws which inhibit the habit of humanity to do corrupt things for profit, whether this is an individual or a corp. Then our republic is secure and the populace free and happy. Currently we have a people who are proud and happy in their ignorance and selfsufficiency. Whether the news gathering and producing sources are owned by the govt. or the corps., you will not have a well informed public. Without a well informed public, you can not have a good democracy. Why they (the powers that be) attack education and seek to own the media. Yes the social media and the Internet are our current greatest weapon against that. But no, you do not take people's private property rights away. Steve Barber makes the best point: the day Noam and Thom and my friend Frank walk away from their earnings from writing, TV lecturing. their books and whatever Frank does, I will listen more seriously. Til then Harlan, and Steve and Cris and Jackson Brown and Joe Ely and me when I get published are every damn bit as entitled to profits from our labors as is any attorney, carpenter, waitress or garbage man. If you like, you can send this screed of mine to Mr. Hartman. And this one's on the house. No charge for my intellectual labor in producing it. DB

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:40 pm

robochrist wrote:I'm going to step into the discussion here for a sec in behalf of Thom Hartmann, as Frank is the last source anyone should rely on for information.

As one who has spoken to Hartmann several times this last year, I can tell you he does not "deliberately misconstrue" one damn thing! He has a vast mental database on history and corporate law; his info is reliable, and he is frank in his humility when he knows less about subject.

If you doubt this, and you are so confident in your own arguments, I encourage you to call and speak to Thom himself directly; he'll go over the whole thing with you, and he'll clarify or concur, guaranteed! Dial him! 866-987-8466, The Thom Hartmann Show.


Robo

Here's the thing, just because, and probably because, you have mental database, it dosen't mean that you have the UNDERSTANDING that needs to be used when saying something like Thom and Frank do.

Let's just take Frank's Idea that Ideas should be free for the taking. As an Artist, I'm not asking you to pay for my ideas, I'm asking you to pay me for the WORK that goes into producing my art. And anyone who breaks my copyright is stealing from me. Sure, it's only my right to do as I please with what I produce, but that means something.

Or to put it another way, you wouldn't let me into your home if you knew I was going to destroy your belongings would you? Well as far as I am concerned, that's what you do when you take my copyrights away from me. You may use MY art in a manner that I don't want. Thereby cheapening my value on the marketplace. If you can justify that, you are a sorry MOFO indeed;.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:47 pm

Lori, time out!! When did I ever say that I want things to be free? My concepts are much more important and complex than that. My only point is that I think current copyright laws go to far to give corporations monopoly control of the avenues of free speech. That's my line.

Certainly as a fan of Prince, Noam, Harlan and Adam Troy Casto, I don't want their work to be stolen. My only point is that free access to speech is an important part of making a good, well informed citizenry. People in South Carolina would not vote the way they do if they were more informed, beyond Fox news and talk radio.

-----------

Rob, you need to shush. You welcome the intellect of Thom, but avoid the equal intellects of Israel experts because they don't demonize muslims enough for your liking. Shame.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:08 pm

FrankChurch wrote: People in South Carolina would not vote the way they do if they were more informed, beyond Fox news and talk radio.


Aw, you have such faith in people! You know, we take as a given that people are uninformed because someone is holding information back from them, but I think people are generally as uninformed as they want to be. No one here has a magic password that gives us access to "real" information and the benighted citizens of South Carolina locked out of it. What we know is as available to them as it is to anyone else. They don't want to know. They like being dumbass ignorant enough to think Newt Gingrich is da bomb. What's that old saying? "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."

But I think it's cool that you think the best of people, Frank.


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