THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:13 pm

Hello Rick. Well, it does matter who sent those emails. I think you may know who I mean. That person has a personal vendetta against me, no matter if I want to make nice or whatever, but I get your drift.

Haven't seen you in a long while, hope all is well.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:14 pm

No, Rick, not Lori. She and me are aces.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:42 pm

Hey Rick

Sorry the semester was rough. We need to talk about The Project

Second item, and this is gonna piss off a bunch of my friends, but so be it.

Frank is as he's always been. No more, no less.

We seem to have a lot of people here -- one, possibly all of them obviously not happy that I've not yet banned Frank from the place -- who seem to think the tiger is going to change his stripes. Frank stops at the line, perhaps just a bit over. Others here step across it angrily, and then are miffed when I call them on it. Yeah, they're baited, but the transgression is theirs. It's like a schoolyard sometimes. ("But teacher, Frank stuck his tongue out at me. Of course I hit him. Whaddya mean *I'm* in trouble???" shocked expression)

Frank knows I've smacked him, at times pretty hard.

But I think -- given the apparent fact I've driven people from this place because I happen to believe it should be free of heavy-handed censorship and that instead of dodging the difficulty people are deliberately blocking others -- we ought o get Duane online and me off.

These guys are my friends, literally. I've met more than half of them over coffee.

But the attitude around here is toxic towards one participant. And you will be given hundreds of reasons why. I just don't happen to agree with most of 'em.

Duane? You there?

Yer up, pal! 8)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:18 pm

Barber

I can only speak for myself, but during therapy today I had an amazing revelation. My sensitivities and Frank's insensitivities just don't mesh.

Now, I only have control over one of us. And because of that from time to time, I walk away. Not because I expect Frank to have changed, but because I refuse to add to the mess.

I hope that in time Frank will become for me what water is to a ducks back. But until then I just have to do what I have to do.

The majority of you guys are people I'd fight tooth and nail for if it came right down to it. I've just gotta focus on those people and not the ones who cause me trouble.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:03 pm

FrankChurch wrote:No, Rick, not Lori. She and me are aces.


Actually Mr. Chuch, we aren't. But, seeing as how higher ups are starting to take action, I'll just leave it at that.

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:20 am

OK, until Keeney called me and told me that this discussion was going on in the Forums, I had no idea it was happening.

Even though your opinion Frank/Paul means nothing to me, there are people in this Forum who are my friends and I want to make it clear that I have sent no emails complaining about Frank/Paul to Wyatt, Barber or Duane. If I have a problem with someone, I will let them know about it directly. I will say that my statement in the Pavillion is a true one, I have received 3 emails from people complaining about Frank, including one person I had never heard of before but who was a lurker in the Pav.

This may surprise Barber but I happen to agree with him. Frank is as he has always been, there has been no appreciable change in his behavior during the many years I have been visiting this site. To punish him now for doing what he has always done seems capricious. For those like me, who find his comments objectionable, simply block his comments here in the Forums and ignore them in the Pav. Yes, I know I broke that rule myself fairly recently, but I had downtime during a labor negotiation that was NOT going well, logged on via laptop, saw his posting and reacted. Under other circumstances I would have continued my policy.

Lori darling, he just ain't worth getting worked over. You know how to reach me if you want to talk further

Barber, I owe you a call or email, with the end of the year I am getting my ass kicked at work right now. We'll talk soon

Rick, my offer still stands for any help I can give on that project I worked on before. For right now it may have to wait until January or February for me to devote any serious time to it, but I will help when I can
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:43 am

I'm a relative newcomer here, so my opinion may carry little weight, but...

Frank's behavior here, in my experience (limited, admittedly), seems fairly tame compared to some I've encountered in other forums. I'm not familiar with the history, but...

I challenge Frank when he makes a statement I think challengable, I ignore the rest. How hard is that? So far his reaction to me has been respectful or not there, so I expect he follows the same protocol. The day he stoops to namecalling and acerbis remarks about my parentage, I may have a different attitude, but for now it seems to me some folks are letting him push buttons that they own.

But I am a newcomer here. So...

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:52 am

Thanks Mark G, and it surprises me not at all that we agree.

Mark T, your thinking closely mirrors my own. Thank you as well.

(Section redacted by Moderator for his own intemperate remarks)

We're lacking perspective, IMHO.

It's natural Harlan attracts passionate people. We've got to differentiate between real and imagined slights. We've got to differentiate between attempts -- failed or not -- at humor and true, genuine offenses. And I'm not saying Frank hasn't given true offense -- each of which he has been chastised for and in virtually every situation offered an apology. I do not, on the other hand, see many apologies to Frank for some deliberately nasty comments in his direction.

Again, some perspective.

(Second section removed because I felt like doing so. I've slapped myself silly for violating my own rules. Life is odd that way.)

I rather doubt it.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:53 am

Barber, wow. I'm speechless.

I take it I'm not allowed to answer Mr. Goldberg.

Lori, you're a good lady. No hyperbole.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:55 am

Barber, don't defend me too much. I want you to keep your friends.

Just remember guys, none of you have ever met me in person.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:19 am

Such stupid nonsense in the midst of a world in crisis.

Barber, u r an angel and a gentleman and a good guy. And a good friend. And a great moderator.

I am one of the people who is having a serious problem at times with Frank. To say he is as he has always been does not help. To say others have been far worse does not help. Part of this is me. I depend on this place for comfort. Probably more than I should. I am a disabled person with two traumatic brain injuries. I have suffered from OCD and depression andPTSD for most of my life. My family consisting of my siblings and nephews and niece are currently pretty fucked. Well the kids are ok. But their mom my sister in my opinion is not. What does all this have to do with you guys? Here I come for comfort intellectual stimulation humor good comaraderie and yes friendship. i do have non internet friends contrary to an assertion Frank made here a year or so ago. But their lives went place good places exciting places. And mine didnt. Which embarresse me no end. I need to take a break for a minute. When I come back I will address Frank directly. I beg your indulgences.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:50 am

Frank, you were one of the first people to say hi and be kind to me when I came here a few years ago. You were one of the people whose posts I looked for and enjoyed. And I feel like a couple of years ago you changed. A tone entered your posts that was unkind and enourmously condescending. And that is what I object to. Not your politics, not your religious views, not anything like that. It is the way you treat and talk to people here. And no we dont know you personally. But that is your choice. You choose to post under an alias. You choose not to share any personal details of your life. You chose that. And I accept your apology for the cat lady comment. And thank you Barber. But curiously that one didnt offend me. I recognized humor. Didnt think it was really very funny. But I recognized it. Call myself the cat lady often.
I was one of the people who talked to Mark. Bc I thought you really hurt and continue to hurt Lori. I talk to several people here on FB. So perhaps I have a different perspective. I dont want Frank to go away. I dont want him banned. Here Frank is what I want from you: Please realize that me, Lori, Gwynnie, Rick, Mark, Chuck, Joao, Steves, all of us are intelligent, articulate, experienced, well-read, informed people. We are familiar with the concepts you post. i knew anarchists and Noam Chomsky et al decades before I dreamt you existed. You are in large measure preaching to the choir. And you keep insisting we conform to your beliefs. I know what you preach, grasp it fully, and reject firmly the parts of it I disavow. Dont expect you to agree with me, so dont expect me to agree with you. Or call me a mook because I don't.
Then and finally, I would like to ask you to leave the depression thread alone. You dont have, claim not to understand it, or those of us who have it, and post the most hurtful comments. I have attempted suicide in the past. Unsuccessfully like I do so much else. But three weeks ago I was there again. I wanted to die with all my being. Fortunately I went to the ER, called my docs, who redoubled my meds, and Im trying to volunteer for RIC and get a job and slowly reach out to my friends. The depression thread is one place I go where I can talk to Steve E, and my Lori and Chuck about the disease. Really seriously. When you said you were posting there to try to learn about it, you made me fell like a bug under a microscope. An alien bug that you the all powerful scientist is viewing with disbelief and faint horror. Dont need that. Because it increases my desire to hurt myself. Physically, badly. Dont wanna read bout Israel, or Noamie or anything else on the depression thread except my friends who have it and how they are today now. Because it is a now disease. Today I can be great and good. Tomorrow on a bridge. If you want to know re depression, read a book. There are dozens out there. Your friends here are not your lab, Frank. If you stop expecting me to agree with you on everything, stop implying I'm stupid if I dont, and leave the depression thread alone, you and I will be copacetic. Kay?

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John E Williams
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby John E Williams » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:59 pm

I just want to step and say oh nooooo Mr. Wyatt, the semester from hell is most certainly NOT over, not quite yet. Not until I have completed my 6-page paper on The Search for Distant Galaxies for my Astronomy class and a self-bound book collecting my Design class assignments. Seeing as the world revolves around ME, I will let you all know when the REAL semester from hell is over (Dec. 17, actually).

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:27 pm

Diane, have a good day. I will leave it at that.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby admin » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Jan asks Frank on the first of 341 pages here to please keep his one liners to himself. And I know Frank to be capable of acting less provacatively.

I am not a person who is overly interested in the relative horribleness of people acting unkindly towards others. Having said that, all I am doing is letting the mods know it is open season as far as posts here. I trust their judgment.


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