THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:44 pm

Another point about copyrights: Is it worth having the ability to occasionally catch one person or two for fucking with your personal copyright, even if that means you protect corporations that control most of our televised, newsprint and other speech?

Or would it be better to find some other way?

Remember, to defend your own personal copyright you are willing to give up most freedom itself to unaccountable tyrannies? This is why this subject bothers me so. It's not just about some dumb shit streaming a Metallica video.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:10 pm

Yes Frank I really want my copyright. I also really want the police to arrive quickly when someone is breaking down my front door, whether he is coming to rob me or rape me. And I really want the cops to find my car if it gets stolen and prosecute the theft. And I really want the scumbags who steal jeans and Nikes when they have jobs and cars to rot in jail. It makes prices go up for the rest of us and some of my stores have closed down. Yes Frank, I really like law and order. If you cut down all the laws to get at the Devil, where will you hide when the Devil turns on you? A paraphase oft he man who wrote "A Man for All Seasons" who name sadly escapes me. If there were no copyrights, I could pretend I wrote it, put it on a teeshirt and get money while the guy who worked hard to write gets squat.

You fantasy of the nice Utopian villages you envision is just that - a fantasy. It is far from who or what or where we are as a world now. And you have no realistic plan to take us there. Just we will all one day be good and holy and smart and take turns ruling each other altruistically and abandon the cities and move to the country. Peoples fears and desires and prejudices and hatreds will be magically transformed into warmth and goodness and comradly feeling. Yeah right Frank, aint happening soon like anytime in the next five hundred years.

It is stupid to respond to you still when you set the paradigm of the conversation in a fantasy alternate universe and do not allow anyone to dispute your deeply flawed perception of reality. This is to the moderators: I am not going to respond to Franks posts any more on this level. If he says Hi, Diane How are you?? I will respond. But in my opinion to consistently allow one person to dominate the conversation and set all the parameters on that conversation on this board is stupid and useless. I would genuinely like to hear what the rest of the folks here have to say about all these issues, but Frank just takes over every thread, listens to no one, and raves. This, again in my opinion, should not be allowed. His last comment should be not have been allowed in my opinion. It was stupid and rude to Steve B and everyone else who commented on the copyright issue. Yes Frank we all really think the things we think even when they differ from the things you thinnk. And that doesn't make us wrong or stupid and any other bad thing. Now shut the fuck up for a while or get your own fucking website. And for the record I am just fine, my life is fine, the cats are fine and you are the only aggravation right now. Really, truly and for sure.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:15 pm

Frank and Robo

I don't know if either of you have been in the place where deciding on TP or a can of soup can be a traumatic expirence, but I had been there awhile back.

And while there I discovered a type of person whom we never seem to discuss. I can't think of a catchy name to call him, but he is a rather persistant pain in the backside of the poor who don't want to be that way. You've all met him, the guy who has every excuse in the book for why he's poor, but none of the have anything to do with his personal behaviors. You know which ones I'm talking about don't you? He's a drunk because of the stress of being poor, he dosen't haven a job because the man wants to keep him under controll.

I can go on if you'd like, but ya get the idea. And as long as people don't bother looking at themselves and improving those things that they can, we will always have poverty. Plain and simple. Sure, there are those who truly need a permenant cash payment, but they are truly few and far between. Most of the poor just need that one chance to make better, and will if ya give them the chance. But, the ones who don't want to better themselves are making it harder than hell on those of us who are.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:09 pm

Diane -
Honestly, I took no real offense at anything Frank posted recently (I'm not even sure which of his posts set you off).

Take a deep breath and realize that we're entitled to express ourselves here short of direct attacks and personal insults. I disagree with a lot of Frank's posts, and he disagrees with mine -- but, as was once said here in America, "I will defend to the death his right to say it". (I say once because I truly believe there are many on the ideological edges who have lost this basic tenet of American society.)

And while he's not giving up the argument, I get the impression he's beginning to understand that Copyright Law doesn't simply feed the vast, inhuman corporations he seems to fear (they don't exist. People run companies, so it's people you should fear, not corporations). Copyright Law also protects you, me, Doug, Sandra, Harlan, Josh, Loftus, Steve Perry, etc, etc, etc. It protects us and gives us avenues to pursue other people who don't give a damn about our rights as long as they get free stuff. I have far less faith in those many individuals than I do in most of the major corporations, which is not to say I trust the major corporations very much. People are, by and large, just as self-serving and just as likely to act against my interests if it conflicts with their own. I am glad to say that virtually nobody who frequents this site falls into that category, at least as they have displayed openly.

But I did not take offense, personal or otherwise, with any of Frank's comments unless I missed one. I appreciate your defense at a perceived slight, but please take a deeeeeep breath and don't let it get under your skin.

:wink:
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:10 pm

Excellent post, Lori.

From the heart.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:48 pm

FrankChurch wrote: As long as you are not naive enough to think that governments will do it. Goverments are never moral agents.
not intrinsicaly no; but who is ? (other than jebus)
...and what in the name of all you find holy gave you the impression i depend on the feds ? holy shit man.
i'm a psychopathic type Libertarian.
FrankChurch wrote: Frankly, the only way to truly end poverty is for us to run the show.
frankly, :lol:
that's what's happenning . This is it. Just us and Mother Nature.
Look around. What do you see? Aliens?
oooh yeah, :shock: UFOs. never mind.

but seriously bud,
good luck; i'm still dazed from getting smacked around by Lori and Diane. :oops:
follow your bliss,mike

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:21 am

Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Mike, the right believes in acceptable poverty. There are winners and losers. They hold their noses and run with that.

My take is that all poverty is ungodly and must be stopped, by whatever reliable means.


Frank

Will you give me one hundred dollars please? I'm broke and don't get any money until Friday.

BTW, who decides when poverty is stopped? Me, you, the poor people?

That is a pipe dream, and will never come to pass. And I say that as one of the poor.


Well.....

There is a kind of poverty that is relative. In this sense, the average schmoe today who can afford to take a bus, light rail, have an MP3 player, heat in the hovel, running water, and at least one half-way decent meal a day is amazingly rich compared to his/her counterpart in, say, 1780s England, France, etc.

However, there is an absolute poverty which is the kind in which that meal, that heat, that bus ride, that hovel is an occasional thing, never to be depended upon, and affects the sufferer's long-term health in clearly demonstrable ways. (There is a medical horror story from the 50s to do with the fact that almost all cadavers for research came from the hardcore poor and doctors, assuming that poverty had no effect on organs, based much of their research on what they found, only to decide that the pituitaries of otherwise normal children were much too large compared with the "standard" they had set from research on the impoverished dead. Several thousand children received unnecessary radiation therapy to reduce the size of their pituitaries with subsequent lamentable results later in their lives.)

We will likely never be able to do anything about relative poverty---somebody will always have less than somebody else and some will always have considerably more than they need. But I believe something can be done about absolute poverty. This is not, however, politically popular often enough for basic remedies to take root and it is the relative poverty that becomes the cause celebre between Right and Left. The real victims of these political volleyball games are the hardcore poor, for whom solutions might be possible if we could just stop treating it like some kind of original sin.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:58 am

Barber, what's the point of me being here if I can't offend you and make you want to cut my gonads off?

Diane may have other issues to deal with so I will leave it at that. But I do find it amazing that having viable political views makes you the devil. I hate to mention this, but anarchism is well within the mainstream of political thought. Straight from the enlightenment. Just because she hasn't researched anarchism or socialism is not my problem.

By the way, I never have bile in my heart when I post a comment. Most of the time I am smiling when I post. I am not strident and I do not scare small children.

Anarchism is another view, like what sports team you like, except my views are about life and death.

Much of the left agrees with me on copyrights, so I will not repeat myself. There is nothing stopping us from amending copyright laws, while still protecting authors and musicians. Make the copyrights run out sooner or restrict long term copyrights to people who make under a certain amount of money. Lots of options ya lovely knuckleheads.

----------

Lori, I know poverty. I once had to rely on 49 cent bottles of chocolate milk for dinner--my only dinner! I've gone a day without eating. I once stole a two liter of pepsi and that was my dinner. Fun times.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:25 pm

Lori,

Yes, unfortunately, for all my snobbery, I CAN relate to the scenario you cited - with ALL its indignities. Oh, yeah....

All I said was, 200 years from now the scene will look totally different - for better or for worse!

We still have to fight for a better situation.

Does that statement really have to cost me a ticket bearing my name adjoined with Frank's?

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:36 pm

Rob, you remember that movie Dead Ringers? You are the bad brother. hehe.

---------

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:52 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Barber, what's the point of me being here if I can't offend you and make you want to cut my gonads off?



Hmmm. You don't know either?


Then again, if prefereable you'll find yourself two down and I'll have new marbles for the roulette wheel. 8)

(Tango the dog will be happy to lend you a sympathetic shoulder.)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:32 pm

Speaking of Tango, I've heard that most dog food sold is crap. I was curious, do you feed Tango natural dog food? I'd suspect you did, but I had to ask.

Natural food is expensive, but they poison that corporate dog food.

----------

An amazing documentary by John Pilger about the media and the Iraq war. He gets great interviews with ex-BBC reporters, newspaper reporters who admit they should have done a better job. BBC insiders who can't riggle off making excuses for what they did--great stuff. Dan Rather is interviewed, admitting that he lied on the Letterman show, worried that he might lose his job. Obviously the images are very violent and he does a good job mentioning other ways and the way the media use propaganda to go along with State terror:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y3wuRjw ... re=related

This shows you just what worthless fluff Fahrenheit 9/11 was. Sorry, Mike, but your film doesn't have the real impact this one does. And Pilger doesn't have to run around playing the clown, trying to entertain the rubes.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:57 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Sorry, Mike, ... your film doesn't have the real impact this one does.

what film?
impact is often bs, no?
i am not so omniscient frank, i offer only food for thought at best.
some of what i've heard and read from pilger seems to come from the pov of a naive utopian, selling righteous indignation to an audience starved for a sense of purpose.
if my view of this vid is much different, i will surely express my gratitude.
follow your bliss,mike

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:14 pm

Nope frank wrong Diane does not have other issues. Youre it at the moment. And Diane did research socialism and anarchy for a college class that she got an A in. Granted it was awhile ago. But i follow the links you others cite here so I am aware of your frame of referece. Will accept your apology for your tone, disdain, and inaccuracies. Oh,and by the by, bet you I read Pro. Chomsky before you did. His linguistic stuff back in the early 80s but still.

Steve, I am sorry to you and Rick and the others here. It is not that Frank holds divergent views. It is that he does not truly listen or dialogue with anyone else. He ignores most points others make, says passive=agressive rude things, then insults my knowledge and education and research skills. And after everyone has responded in the dialogue, he just has to get the last word in. His attitude is that if only you and I and everyone here were as smart and well read and informed as he, we would all think and believe as Frank does. I find this attitude enourmously offensive. I am smart and so well read and informed. In my opinion, so are you and Ezra and Steve and Lori and Cynic and everyone. But not if we disagree with Frank. As the survivor of two separate traumatic brain injuries, I take personally when someone disparges my intellect, reading abilities,etc. Frank does that continually, to me and others, and plays all innocent victim when people get mad. I dealt with it for months by scolling past most everything he posted here. That seems like a sound strategy to me and a relief for you and Rick Wyatt, so that's what I'm a gonna do. So there Frank, :P :lol:

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:00 am

Diane, just do what I do and block the little troll. That way, you can simply ignore his inane postings. If you need help in how to do this, shoot me an emil or a Facebook message and I can walk you through it
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class


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