THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Tony Rabig
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tony Rabig » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:30 am

Last words of Geoffrey Firmin, the Consul, in Malcolm Lowry's novel UNDER THE VOLCANO:

"Christ, this is a dingy way to die."

The lit crit folks should have fun interpreting and re-interpreting that sentence now.

Bests to all,
--tr

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:49 am

But what if your dingy dinghy needs a cleanin'?
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:28 am

Rob, I cannot say that I watch Olbermann regularly, but have watched him on an intermittent basis. I do not deny his eloquence or his intelligence but when listening to him a get a sense of smug condescencion the likes of which I have only seen in that equally insufferable prick O'Reilly. Olbermann does not play fast and loose with the facts as O'Reilly, and I do agree with what he is saying I just do not care for his style.

As for Carville, he is a Clintonian through and through. That ain't a bad thing, but he is not an advocate of the 50 state strategy pushed by Howard Dean, and looks down on a lot of new ideas within the Dem Party.
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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:21 pm

Carville is a hack.

Olbermann is right and that props up hubris like the rainbow props up Godly lovekisses.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:10 pm

No, Carville is a formidable talent, but, as always, you sidestep the basic issue.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:30 pm

They like Carville because he is an insider. His meeting a Republican insider, later marrying her is the banana in the tailpipe.

Outsiders are scary because we can't manage what they say or are afraid at what they might say. We want a reasoned, managed debate. Freedom is too fragile to deal in only the truth.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:07 pm

People start calling Obama a nazi, and does he stand up and say "That's the stupidest thing I ever heard? That's insulting to the survivors of the holocaust and the veterans who fought it and you better not say that again!"

Nope. Doesn't say much of anything really. Unless I'm missing something?

I am still baffled that a chicken hawk like Bush managed to make a Purple Heart veteran look like the coward. How'd that happen? No one calls the bluff! We let them set the terms! No one makes the most obvious response. . .

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:53 am

Steve in the case of Bush & Kerry, it is a classic Rove strategy, you don't attack your opponents' weakness, you attack their strength. If you are successful, the weaknesses become even more apparent. It is a gamble because if you lose, you lose big, but it can be effective when one side is not willing to fight with the same intensity as you are
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:17 pm

The term Nazi can be used in context. It should be avoided most of the time. When Dick Durban used it, it was in context. You should avoid just calling anybody a nazi. Certainly jokey shit like "soup nazi" is ok.

Fascist, now that is the word to use, especially for these replicated gremlins called Republicans.

------

I consider chickenhawks to be pacifists. They send others to do their dirty work, not willing to kill themselves. Doubtful that these fuckers could look somebody in the eye while they stick the knife in. They let our boys and girls live with that horror as they push buttons in their air-conditioned rooms.

Guys like Hitchens or Tony Blair, could they live with killing a child? Doubtful, but they let the poor and lower classes be our dutiful killers.

If people knew what death was really like they would not be so cute executing judgements that send men to war.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:56 pm

Frank

Your confusing me. In another thread, you're bitching at Obama for a show of force that should go a long way to keeping a large and very vital part of the world from blowing itself up,(The Koreas) and here you're complaining that people have forgotten about what it's like to kill. BTW, the only way one knows what it's like to kill is to kill...

While I kinda like the Idea that we go back to face to face combat, like in WWI, it isn't gonna happen.

Oh, wise and all knowing; what the fuck do we do?

I'm serious if you have a REAL LIFE WORKABLE solution, please let me know.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:02 am

WWI wasn't face to face: it was largely artillary bombardment, which meat covering one's ears and hoping the next shell didn't land too close.

FrankChurch wrote:If people knew what death was really like they would not be so cute executing judgements that send men to war.


Absoluetely. There's a reason most of the Republican war machine were made of chicken hawks.

And while Hitchens can argue his case very persausively, it must be remembered that he has never faught either.


Fascist is not the word to use either. It is a very specific historical term refering to very specific political movements in very specific contexts. It is not a one-size-fits-all label for anything we on the left do not like.

The neo-con movment is a very amoral, destructive force. But it isn't fascist. The Tea baggers are not fascists either, though they could become so under the wrong leadership. Let's not dilute the use of valuable terms.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:16 am

One of the things which initially turned me so directly against Republicans was the nuking of Max Cleland as a coward. It was an appalling ad, and yet used very effectively to unseat an experienced war vet in a time of war -- because he reasonably questioned Bush's handling of that war.

The fact this was run by his opponent, who served no time at all (bad knee, *gasp*), and supported by the Bush Administration, of which only Powell can claim true service to the country (Bush's Air National Guard "service" was, and still is, a joke. He served nine weekends and never saw combat) contributes to the utterly repulsive reality of the tactic.

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Story-Of-Max-Cleland

At the same time, Bushies questioned Kerry's service as well as McCain's. McCain, in fact, stood up against the Cleland ads and paid a considerable political price for it. This wads when he apparently learned to tow the party line as a political payback.

And so I grew very quickly to appreciate the hypocrisy and utter viciousness of the Republican War Machine (both political and actual). That was the point which I realized all bets are off, and it's victory at any cost. "Fuck the country, we need to stay in power". Thank you Kim Jong-il.

The Democratic Party can pull defeat from the jaws of victory faster than perhaps any political body in history. It moves at glacial speed, and insists on being relatively nice during the campaign and governing seasons. They lack the ice-cold eye on the ball with which Republicans function. To Republicans, the ends do appear to justify the means, and it's a sad day for democracy (or a democratic republic) when personal power and political goals exceed in importance those of the actual country itself. "Screw 97% of Americans, the rich need their tax cuts. Argue with us and we'll deride you and make snide comments regarding your patriotism."

On a schoolyard they call these tactics bullying.

In a government, they're dictatorial.
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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:15 pm

I see what you mean, Steve. The latest crop of Republicans seem to view politics as war by other means.

I don't know if it's a fluke, but don't forget John Hickenlooper won handily against Tom Tancredo, a dishonors graduate of the Richard Nixon/Joseph McCarthy school of political discourse. Hick won while running a clean campaign against that douchebag. Tancredo managed to capture most of the Repubilcan vote, even though he was running as a candidate of the American Constitution party. Maes, the Republican, polled at fourteen percent of the vote at best and less than ten at worst, a total humiliation against Tancredo.

Even so, Hickenlooper won by running on the issues while Tancredo could only beat the well-worn illegal immigrant issue, which he has been using the way McCarthy used communism. Hickenlooper managed to get Tancredo to show he really had nothing to offer outside trying to scare people with swarthy Mexican hordes.

I think there's a way to rope-a-dope the Republicans into showing they have nothing positive to offer without slinging (too much) mud. The problem is, it takes some very clever people to do that, and most political hacks aren't that clever, they're just manipulative and cunning.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:32 pm

Kim Jong Il is crazy but he is not suicidal. He wants to keep and maintain power, not destroy himself. What we have to do is talk to him, make it known that we do not mean him any harm. We have no choice, the fucker has nukes. We have to nix those war games because it tells North Korea that we are about to attack him. Not a good thing to do to a crazy man. Right?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:29 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Kim Jong Il is crazy but he is not suicidal. He wants to keep and maintain power, not destroy himself. What we have to do is talk to him, make it known that we do not mean him any harm. We have no choice, the fucker has nukes. We have to nix those war games because it tells North Korea that we are about to attack him. Not a good thing to do to a crazy man. Right?


Frank, I may seem mean when I say this, but you just don't have an effective understanding of the history of this particular conflict, or of the behavior of the Kim dictatorship. Please, research a little about the many, many previous attempts to appease the North. Look up and read about the South's "Sunshine Policy" from 1998 through 2008. You'll note, during that time, the North smiled, negotiated and still created nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them behind everyone's back. By 2006 it was deadly evident that the North had betrayed every one of the "compromises" given in negotiations with the South and the US.

The South's leader, Kim Dae-jung won the Nobel Peace Prize as documentation of his commitment to peace on the peninsula. The North kicked him in the teeth just a few years later when it was revealed they had completely ignored their negotiated commitments.

There is no question Bush's Axis of Evil designation inflamed the relationship, but what it truly did is give the North cover for their actions. Kim Jong-il is not only crazy, but he has created a desperately paranoid and brutal dictatorship. They starve their own people to possess nuclear weapons and now have the means to build many, many more. They possess biological and chemical weapons -- and unlike Iraq, the North readily admits as such.

You don't seem to really understand who and what we are dealing with, and the history of attempts at "we mean you no harm".

Please. Read the history. See the record. Look at the North's actions. Look at the tradition of aggression between the two countries. Look at the rhetoric. Look at the conditions he inflicts on his citizens to enable his own power, convincing them he is a living god.

Read up, mon frer, read up.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


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