THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Rick Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Rick Keeney » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:05 am

Anyone feel confident that we're prepared for ebola? A general question, I know. But there are any number of ways we could respond to such a question. I'd encourage any reasoned response from you all.

Seems to me that as soon as an outbreak occurs, EVERYONE in the world community should activate a plan that should have already existed for just such an instance.

You'd want to have a plan in place ahead of this nightmare, no?

Douglas Harrison
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:17 pm

Take the time to read this article on The Atlantic's site, Rick. It presents an experienced biomedical researcher and Ebola virus expert's conclusions on just how unprepared the U.S.* is for viral outbreaks like the current one (and the worse ones to come).

http://m.theatlantic.com/health/archive ... ys/381901/

*Of course the rest of the world is in much the same boat.

D.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:48 pm

First of all, while this question was once directed a specific person it is now a general question for anyone who chooses to answer.

Apparently, everything I post on the Science vs Religion thread offends another poster no matter how I approach things. Here's the question. Is it my fault for maybe not writing clearly enough or is it the other persons fault for allowing their personal feelings to color what I say? Or is it some combination of both?

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Steve Barber
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Barber » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:00 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:First of all, while this question was once directed a specific person it is now a general question for anyone who chooses to answer.

Apparently, everything I post on the Science vs Religion thread offends another poster no matter how I approach things. Here's the question. Is it my fault for maybe not writing clearly enough or is it the other persons fault for allowing their personal feelings to color what I say? Or is it some combination of both?


Lori - It's more the subject matter than tone. I've noticed nearly everyone on that thread tends toward unintentional offensiveness to the opposing viewpoint. The atheists look down upon Believers, and the Believers cannot fathom the POV of atheists. Both sides are pretty well mutually exclusive, given that the fundamental (pardon the pun) disagreement is one which cannot be reconciled within either belief system. (I feel the hackles going up with atheists over my deliberate use of the words "belief system", given their own proclivity towards "but I'm the only rational person in this debate".)

When neither side can admit even the possibility the other is correct -- and such an admission moves both debaters out of their respective positions into a third one -- then there's virtually no real basis for discussion unless both sides carefully demonstrate respect for the other point of view. Sadly, we don't do that on the SvR thread. It's an emotional issue, and we're all inclined to say things which can be hurtful to others.

Religion is a highly emotional topic. It's no surprise, then, that emotions get raw and tempers flare.

So...to specifically respond to your question: Yes, it's your fault for not being sensitive enough to the other point of view and wording things which may or may not read as intolerant or insulting. But that applies to almost everyone contributing to that thread.

There's very little ground between "I cannot understand your thinking on this" (which is essentially what both sides are saying to each other) and "only an idiot thinks the way you do" (which the thread periodically descends into).

But it ain't just you. Hope this helps.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Steve

I forgot one thing. Maybe the medium is the problem. There is a group of believers who bring food to my building. All of them know where I stand, and we speak our minds and move on. IMO that is the way it should be. It isn't happening here.

If I'm honest about it, the only time a persons religion is a problem is when they choose to force me to deal with it. Prayers before public meetings are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Since that usually doesn't happen here, I really don't have a problem with the religious folk here. I have a lot of opinions about them, but have tried to keep them to myself.

The rest of my thoughts rightfully belong in your PM box and will be there in a bit.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:59 am

Lori Koonce wrote:First of all, while this question was once directed a specific person it is now a general question for anyone who chooses to answer.

Apparently, everything I post on the Science vs Religion thread offends another poster no matter how I approach things. Here's the question. Is it my fault for maybe not writing clearly enough or is it the other persons fault for allowing their personal feelings to color what I say? Or is it some combination of both?


Lori there is a deep seated, fundamental, internalized taboo in our culture against criticizing religion. Because this taboo has existed for so long it has had time to surround itself with oodles of defense mechanisms. We can continue to speak out and accept the consequences (which is often that people of good will misunderstand or misrepresent our point of view) or be silent. I judge no one for making either choice.

If we do speak out all we can really do is keep asking others the same questions we've asked ourselves. If other folks find those questions offensive, well that's rather telling don't you think?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Steve Barber
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Barber » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:42 am

Ezra Lb. wrote:If we do speak out all we can really do is keep asking others the same questions we've asked ourselves. If other folks find those questions offensive, well that's rather telling don't you think?


As I have said before, it's not the questions which tend to rile others, it's the pretense of knowing more than they do. Oftentimes it's the tone of the question. I have very good friends who are religious, including two who are "of the cloth", and they thoroughly enjoy a good questioning of their beliefs -- it allows them to become more assured in their own way. But when I -- or anyone else -- resort to assertions that only rational people have all the answers, then it's a putdown and insult.

And all too often, that's exactly the tone we get from both sides, even here in the 'enlightened' Harlan Ellison Forums.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby paul » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:48 am

I am extraordinarily glad Harlan is home. :D
The medium is the message.

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Steve Barber
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Barber » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:22 am

paul wrote:I am extraordinarily glad Harlan is home. :D


Ditto!
All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:32 pm

Steve Barber wrote:
paul wrote:I am extraordinarily glad Harlan is home. :D


Ditto!


Me three!



Steve Barber wrote:
Ezra Lb. wrote:If we do speak out all we can really do is keep asking others the same questions we've asked ourselves. If other folks find those questions offensive, well that's rather telling don't you think?


As I have said before, it's not the questions which tend to rile others, it's the pretense of knowing more than they do. Oftentimes it's the tone of the question. I have very good friends who are religious, including two who are "of the cloth", and they thoroughly enjoy a good questioning of their beliefs -- it allows them to become more assured in their own way. But when I -- or anyone else -- resort to assertions that only rational people have all the answers, then it's a putdown and insult.

And all too often, that's exactly the tone we get from both sides, even here in the 'enlightened' Harlan Ellison Forums.


Barber I must say your response is a lot more tempting to unpack than Ben's was. But as interesting as these issues might be they are still not relevant to my question.

What compelling reason does anyone have to think that god exists?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:15 am

It occurs to me that we now have two -- count 'em -- TWO threads where everyone is singing the Existential Blues. Perhaps the God n' Stuff discussion should slide on over to the Barugon Vs. Mecha Godzilla thread.

Though I think Lori asked a perfectly legitimate question about people getting offended by her statements on religion. There are two areas where I can guarantee people will be offended, and that's politics and religion. It's just the nature of us naked apes. If any assurances that you are not trying to be offensive are rebuffed, then that's their problem, not yours. Not your circus, not your monkeys.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:16 am

And I too am relieved to see Harlan back at home and kicking Death in the gonads.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:03 am

What compelling reason does anyone have to think that god exists?


I'm taking my answer over to the science v religion thread. See you there.

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Rick Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Rick Keeney » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:56 am

Douglas Harrison wrote:Take the time to read this article on The Atlantic's site, Rick. It presents an experienced biomedical researcher and Ebola virus expert's conclusions on just how unprepared the U.S.* is for viral outbreaks like the current one (and the worse ones to come).

http://m.theatlantic.com/health/archive ... ys/381901/

*Of course the rest of the world is in much the same boat.

D.



Thanks, D., Doing so as we speak/type/read.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:54 pm

Hello. :)


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