THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:37 pm

Frank, my friend, never got off the first couple pages. Literally. Tried five or six times reading the same pages and said what the heck, and put the book down. I have no clue.

paul
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby paul » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:18 pm

It's at times like this in the Pavilion that it would be nice to read the clear, lucid prose of David Loftus. Miss reading him around.
The medium is the message.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:32 pm

I haven't read Pynchon's work after Vineland, but everything up to that point is very much all about conspiracies. Not real ones,but the ones people collectively imagine there to be and react to as if they were real, ignoring real ones which are just not consistent with the particular kind of paranoia people prefer to indulge.

Gravity's Rainbow is about loss through victory. I'll leave others to parse that.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:20 pm

Pretty much, Mark.

Paul, no comment.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:22 pm

Mark Tiedemann wrote: conspiracies. Not real ones, but the ones people collectively imagine there to be and react to as if they were real, ignoring real ones which are just not consistent with the particular kind of paranoia people prefer to indulge.



Ye Gods. A friend of mine's a die-hard Truther, so I've been given a rather large window into that world. At first I thought it was all about political alienation. Now. . .there's something deeper. More psychological. Something more akin to a religious cult. I don't like it at all.

Skeptic has a huge piece on JFK conspiracies this month. I've never been particularly interested in that one: it always struck me as a routine murder investigation. But it's a different order of magnitude from the Truthers. The one just suggests someone else shot the president. The other suggests a mind-bogglingly large, logistically impossible operation necessarily involving about half the world. It's an entirely new level of paranoid delusion.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:30 pm

I don't trust Skeptic. Shermer is a libertarian and those guys really shit on the scientific method when it comes to the economy. They just make numbers up.

Truthers pretend to be activists, it makes them feel good about themselves. If they looked into their souls they would see a bum.

It is like a cult since when you show them evidence they just turn it around and give you more counter-evidence. You cannot win.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:46 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I don't trust Skeptic. Shermer is a libertarian and those guys really shit on the scientific method when it comes to the economy. They just make numbers up.

Truthers pretend to be activists, it makes them feel good about themselves. If they looked into their souls they would see a bum.

It is like a cult since when you show them evidence they just turn it around and give you more counter-evidence. You cannot win.


With all due respect what fucking planet dropped you off on earth? If it weren't for the scientific metnod, you couldnt't have skeptics in the first place. It is the scientific method that gives onr the ability to be skeptical in the first place, if you think about it.

If anything, religion is the cult in this discussion. It doesn't allow one to think outside of very narrowly defined boxes. All your answers have to come out those boxes and if they don't you are punished for it with your afterlife taken from you. Not to mention the various ways you get to suffer here on earth for it.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:56 pm

Lori, tax cuts do not help the economy, libertarians keep saying they do.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:00 pm

I don't trust Skeptic. Shermer is a libertarian and those guys really shit on the scientific method when it comes to the economy.

Yes Michael Shermer is a libertarian. But he can change his mind when confronted with evidence that undermines his positions. Here's an article he wrote from last month's Scientific American about how he changed his mind about gun control and global warning.

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2013/10/w ... 0.facebook

SKEPTIC is an excellent magazine. And skeptics don't "trust" anything. :wink:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:53 am

I like him personally, just not his libertarianism.

Speaking of Skeptic where in the world is Brian Siano?

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:54 am

I sure as hell hope the Gore Vidal rumor is just that.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:32 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Lori, tax cuts do not help the economy, libertarians keep saying they do.



Care to give me someone other than yourself to get thid info from Frank?

And WTF does this have to do with skeptical thinking in anynway?

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:58 pm

Skeptics tend to support the scientific method which is about facts.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:31 pm

Skeptics tend to support the scientific method which is about facts.


Oh, the horror.

Chuck
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Frank why do you read the Huffington Post? Every time I access the site I can feel brain cells being stripped away.

Skeptics tend to support the scientific method which is about e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e. And Chuck is right, what a radical concept!

I don't know Shermer personally so I neither like him nor dislike him. I do admire anyone willing to put aside even their deeply cherished beliefs when they are contradicted by the evidence. It is extremely difficult for people to admit they were wrong anyway but especially about ideas they've wrapped their sense of identity and self-worth around. Such folks are always to be admired and congratulated.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


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