THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Lori Koonce
Posts: 3538
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: San Francisco California
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:19 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Like that's gonna happen.

:)


I didn't expect any different Frank. One trick pony's tend to be afraid of stepping out of that comfort zone.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:22 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I don't think I like your tone.

No, I understand. :)



Excuse me?
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FinderDoug
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:43 pm

Frank - Why doesn't your concern about Harlan's feelings extend to your own behavior?

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:18 am

Harlan's the guy who jumped on a guy and broke a bone. lol. I would never do that.

Harlan did march with Cesar Chavez, MLK, went to bat for feminism. Don't you get it, he influenced me.

-----------

Barber, my weird attempt at humour.

--------

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:35 am

Frank,

The main problem I---and I suspect many here---have with you is your hit-and-run method (if method it is) by which you throw some wild statement onto the board, then run away when you get challenged. You argue with platitudes and slogans, never stay for the full discussion, and when asked a direct question to explain something, there's usually (not always, but usually) dead silence. You're like a tagger leaving behind little enigmatic sprays, which are certainly provocative, but rarely informative, and when we pick up the thread and try to engage you on it, you fade into the night or change the subject. It comes across like the snotty little brother who won't leave his big sister alone when she has a guy over. Rather than add to the discourse, you just annoy.

Harlan influences you? He always backed his declarations up and never shirked from a duke-out over an issue.

Not sure if anyone else agrees, but that's my take.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:26 am

I do hit and run but usually flesh it out later.

I just don't like typing a lot on the internet. If I wrote a book it would take me twenty years--lol.

I get your point, Mark.

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:20 pm

Well, don't make statements then you aren't prepared to back up.

Might I ask for the thirteenth time what you have against the Tokyo war-crimes trials?

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:58 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I get your point, Mark.


I truly hope you do, because Mark phrased the concerns very succinctly. Frank, you're a smart guy, and very sharp when it comes to identifying a topic, but not so good at the follow through. As Mark notes, your posts carry all the substance of someone who spray paints "WAR!" on a STOP sign and walks away thinking they made a profound statement. They didn't contribute to the solution, nor to even the debate about the solution. They simply marked the sign up, accomplishing nothing in the process except a bit of useless graffiti .

This is what the folks here, and on the Pav, are trying to tell you. You have valid points of view, but you do not defend them, you just make the comments and keep making them without the substance that intelligent debate requires. Back yourself up, enjoin the other minds here. Harlan is without a doubt a provocateur, but if you rise to his challenge you a) better make damned sure your understanding of a topic is equal to his own, and b) prepare yourself for the details he possesses to substantiate his point.

In order to be Harlan, you must enter every disagreement with the phrase "No, not true and here's why...and why...and why..." in your frontal lobe. If he doesn't know the details, Harlan listens before making up his mind. That's the best way to disagree, by finding out what you disagree upon and addressing it and pointing out the flaws.

Drive by snarkisms might be cute for a short time, but do nothing in the long run.

(In other words, if you went to a restaurant and sat on the patio with a group of friends to discuss the state of the world, how many times do you think that group would tolerate someone who kept racing by on a skateboard making snide and snarky comments without listening to anyone else...before they grabbed and pounded him on one of the repeated passes?)

Steve Evil wrote:Might I ask for the thirteenth time what you have against the Tokyo war-crimes trials?


Good place to start, since it's been brought up on this thread many times in the past.

If it really gets going, we can even create a separate thread to continue.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

Tim Raven
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:30 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tim Raven » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:07 pm

Sounds like a reasonable request, Frank.
Tokyo war crimes trials?

Tim

paul
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:04 pm
Location: ATX
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby paul » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:19 pm

I mostly just sit here and read. And I like Frank, for all the pros and cons, probably because I'm not debating him.

But I look back at all the years, all the posts, all the time, of Frank on this BB. Then I imagine all the other BBs, sites and comment sections he may have frequented over the years. And then I read this :

FrankChurch wrote: I just don't like typing a lot on the internet.


And I lost it. Just lost it. :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:


(I know what you meant, too. I don't like trying to explain myself in long screeds in several bursts over the span of days. But I couldn't pass that one up.)

Not laughing at you, bro, laughing near you.
The medium is the message.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:26 am

I wrote that for you, Paul. lol

Barber, I debate all the time here, you all just give up and walk away. Think the copyright thread.

---------------

Steve Evil, wow, you are really going into the wayback machine. Best to hit the Frank forum.

-----------

I don't know about the rest of you but the thing with Rob is really sad.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:36 am

The problem with Comicon is the long lines of tweens struggling to see some hunk they saw in some lame movie.

Barber, you should check out Spring Breakers. That actor you didn't like is good in that.

Mark Tiedemann
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:42 am

FrankChurch wrote:I wrote that for you, Paul. lol

Barber, I debate all the time here, you all just give up and walk away. Think the copyright thread.


I was thinking of that, and it's the perfect example. There were two or three salient questions asked of you repeatedly that you never answered nor even acknowledged being asked.

But lest this turn into another copyright thread itself, the point is, whenever you have been confronted with a substantive counterargument (as, for example, in the case of Hugo Chavez) you tend to ignore it and find something else to throw into the mix. Instead of debate, you just move on, like a magician distracting the audience.

Now we are poised on the threshold of another possible thread where we debate whether or not Frank debates.

I for one am working on more of the photographs I shot in California and will post links anon.

(Yes, I'm leaving the subject.)

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:53 am

FrankChurch wrote:I wrote that for you, Paul. lol

Barber, I debate all the time here, you all just give up and walk away. Think the copyright thread.



I do, which is exactly why I am making these statements. You don't debate, you preach...or worse, tell everyone they're idiots and don't know what they're saying, despite the fact that several of the participants have been directly -- directly -- impacted by copyright issues. (Myself included.)

You have not made a single compelling argument in favor of your point of view, you've simply kept repeating the same memes time and again. Saying "because it's good for society" isn't an argument, it's a statement. And when asked....repeatedly...for substantiation you reply with "But it's good for society, why can't you people see this?" Again, lacking in detail. And when presented with logical points about the artists' rights, you respond with "but it's GOOD for SOCIETY and you guys just can't see it".

And so on.

THAT is why people grow frustrated debating you. It's not a debate, it's an attempt to engage you, but you refuse to engage other than to repeat what you've said. In many ways the frustration and anger towards you is based on people WANTING to engage with you. If you were not someone they wanted to interact with, they wouldn't become so upset and certainly wouldn't even bother.

But your dismissals and other methods of interactions are really isolating you, and not in a good way. You've chased perfectly decent people off these boards, and frustrated some very serious attempts to have a discussion.

In fact, your response to Mark's comments and my follow up...or lack of response to, beyond a sentence of defense...is a prime example of what I'm saying. Mark gave you some very sage advice, which you seem to be dismissing and ignoring, both at the same time. That wins you no friends and in fact alienates someone -- Mark -- who feels you have something valid to say and just don't get why people aren't listening any more.

When you kick your defenders in the teeth often enough, you might discover there's a reason you're alone in the corner.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:59 am

And Mark, don't worry. This will not become a debate on that topic. This is about style of posting and discussion, not the merits of any particular subject.

This thread is to reflect upon points made in the Pavilion and for extended discussion on same. Since the Pav has been lit up recently by frustrations regarding Frank's behavior, this is a legitimate thread topic.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests